http://gwuscommunity.com/?p=442

That's right. There are no US GW GTs. The Indy GTs are still going on, just the ones that GW runs are cancelled for 2009.

I agree with your statement. Maybe they will be back for 2010.

Could be an experiment to see if it affects sales.

After all, it appears to be GW's view that Tournaments are a minority part of the Hobby.

Thus, the cost of putting on a Tournament may not be recouped at the Tournament. So take a chance, cut them, and see if it affects the takings.

Please be aware the above is sheer conjecture, NOT to be taken twice daily. NOT to be taken as rumour. NOT to be taken as anything but sheer mindless postulating.

I think the conjecture is probably close to the mark though. If these events weren't generating the kind of investment they anticipated it's an easy decision for corporate HQ to decide not to spend that money. Now I'm not someone who's traveled to a GT before but it's still disappointing. While they may not create a revenue stream that GW can rely on, they do support an aspect of the hobby that is important to some players that helps promote a more nationwide community. People have met each other at GT's that never would have met face to face otherwise.

Its like GW is going back in time, to when there were less stores, less events, no GTs, etc. Only with a worse WD.....


but better miniatures!

Thanks GW.


I won't be spending money on travel, hotel, food.... models for next year's army. Looks like GW just put about one thousand dollars back into my pocket.


take care

I think that GW realized that they can't afford to run a GT with paid staff that can compete with the Indy GTs and their volunteer staff. Add in the cost of shipping tables and terrain, and everything else, and I'm guessing GW realized they simply weren't putting on the best value events out there.

It's a shame, because the one GT I did attend was a lot of fun, but if they're not financial viable, they're not viable.

Will be interesting to see if their's a 2010 circuit.

And as Polonius said, there are seemingly lots (I dunno, I only read about them) of other Tournaments being run by third parties.

Platuan4th wrote:

No -ing kidding!!!

Dang... Now that's got me seriously bummed. <sigh>

Vale,

JohnS

Glad I hopped on Adepticon then. Looks like tomorrow is my one and only trip this year for a tourney.

Sounds more like they laid off the tournament team and suddenly realized they had no one who could do the job.

Very short-sighted.

Well, that's really a shame.

Although I think some of you are reading too much into this beyond the restructuring causing a lot of chaos behind the scenes (which is understandable) and the fact that companies everywhere are looking to save a buck right now however they can (also understandable). While I find it hard to believe that the GTs operated at a significant loss, I'm sure GW isn't in an environment to hand out a lot of employee overtime, etc.

This happened once before and they came back better than ever.

You could always drive to Des Moines for the monthly tournaments I run. Granted they're probably not as big... I don't think I could do more than 24 people because of table space, but then that's never been a problem yet because we only get 10-16 people, though it's been growing that top end here the last few months.

Hmmm. Let's see. They did away with GD Atlanta. Now the GW GT's. Maybe Jervis is driving home his point - At the end of a very large sword!?!? Maybe it's just time for the gaming community to pick up the ball and do something with it. Just my 2 cents.

There are lots of good Indy GTs out therem and they are infinitely better than GTs. And they actually give out (Gasp!) PRIZES!

I for one had already planned on never going to a GW one again anyway. $125 for the privilage of playing on the same crappy tables with the same drive-through window PA system ("What mission did he say we were supposed to be playing?").

There are four big events within driving distance that more than sate my tourney hunger! and all put together don't add up to the single fee of a GT. Better run, better terrain, better players. Win/win!

Personally I've been very happy with the local tourneys. The volunteers do a wonderful job. The Adepticon people seem to pull off an incredible show. I'm sure it's the same with a lot of the other local tourney's. I really don't know anybody locally who's gone to a GT, or has any plans to do so, and I know quite a few people who play.

I'm sure that there are people who are disappointed, but they really are in the minority. If the forum threads and posts from some of the tourney goers are any indication, a pretty hard to please crowd to boot.

I do not consider myself a tourney goer, but it is a shame that there is no GT's this year.

That said, as one of GW's harsher critics I can very well understand why they might have axed the GT circuit this year.

As well, why hold GT's when there are indy's who run a tighter and much cleaner show like adepticon who not only offer 40K and WHFB, but they write thorough FAQ's to make the play go smoother? This doesnt even mention the hobby related seminars, odd games like Legends of the High Seas, BFG tourney, Space Hulk, Blood Bowl, Warhammer ancients, etc.

GW has never done such a good job even at their own games days.

Again, whats the point of GW doing them when others do it better and GW dont even have to lift a finger to promote their own product?

That, right there, is the whole point.

If anybody reads this and thinks;" OK, so now I wont spend any money on models this year as tournaments are my only source of motivation/gaming".......I really pity you (generic you).

Well, as a GT and Indy tournament goer, I don't see that there has to be (or is) a place for *either* one or the other, as some may believe. My impression from the GWGTs I've attended is that most people have a really good time at them, and as someone posted earlier, get to meet people that they might not get to otherwise. Although I support and enjoy Indy GTs (and have run one or two larger tournaments myself), there has always been something different about the GW GTs, so I hope that they can get them back online for 2010. I for one will try to attend both Indys and GWGTs when/if the option arises next year - at the end of the day, they are good for the hobby overall, and if we don't grow the hobby, we start to run out of people to play when others leave it.

If anything, this gives me 100 more points for some of the Indys this year, as only the GWGTs seemed to be set at 1750! Chris, hope your job is safe and that we get to see you at some tournaments next year.

Steelmage99 wrote:If anybody reads this and thinks;" OK, so now I wont spend any money on models this year as tournaments are my only source of motivation/gaming".......I really pity you (generic you).

Thanks for that.

Many of us were feeling bummed about the cancellation, but now feel doubley bummed because we use a tournaments as motivation for gaming (generic we, of course).



take care

Son of a bitch! We had a team ready to go to Vegas this year too, it would have been my first GT! I have always been saving up for something and could never go.

gak, shiza, gak.

Well, at least I can look forward to the SoCal slaughter fantasy tourny in the summer. What a bust.

Hellfury wrote:I do not consider myself a tourney goer, but it is a shame that there is no GT's this year.

That said, as one of GW's harsher critics I can very well understand why they might have axed the GT circuit this year.

As well, why hold GT's when there are indy's who run a tighter and much cleaner show like adepticon who not only offer 40K and WHFB, but they write thorough FAQ's to make the play go smoother? This doesnt even mention the hobby related seminars, odd games like Legends of the High Seas, BFG tourney, Space Hulk, Blood Bowl, Warhammer ancients, etc.

GW has never done such a good job even at their own games days.

Again, whats the point of GW doing them when others do it better and GW dont even have to lift a finger to promote their own product?

That, right there, is the whole point.

Well put that man.

J'santai Khan wrote:Hmmm. Let's see. They did away with GD Atlanta. Now the GW GT's. Maybe Jervis is driving home his point - At the end of a very large sword!?!? Maybe it's just time for the gaming community to pick up the ball and do something with it. Just my 2 cents.

Agreed!

In a basement somewhere, Jervis and AgeOfEgos are chuckling contentedly...

Guys, this line of thinking is crazy. While Jervis has said on more than one occasion that he doesn't think the game should be geared towards tournaments as much, this doesn't mean that he doesn't ever play in them (he does) nor that he is against all tournaments (he isn't, 'cause he has played in them). It just means that by sticking to rigid tournament rules only, there is a more flexible side to the game that is lost. The campaign article in this month's WD (a nice new addition) speaks to this a bit.

Saw this coming. Still sucks.

I'm not into tourneys so it doesn't really effect me, but it sucks to see them go. However, if the money and resources they are blowing on these tourneys gets reinvested and turned into some really awesome new models then I'm all for it And who knows maybe it will mean they can support indie GTs better now.

Well, I must say that I am................ Disappointed. Does save me a lot of money, and it does lose GW some money. But the purchases by GT players just for the GTs is probably a drop in the bucket. Course, they do lose out on those intangibles, the word-of-mouth advertising, etc. Our club had about 20 people go to Baltimore last year. Hmmm, 20 of us not building new armies, that might be a fairly decent chunk of change that our local GW isn't getting.

For every adepticon though guys there is a broadside bash. At a GWGT you knew what you were gonna get, every time. The level has always been consistant. With indy GT's your never totally sure about what your getting until you show up. Just because one event (Adepticon) runs a great event doesn't mean that all Indy's do. Having attended multiple indy and GW ran GT's I have to say I've always enjoyed GWGT's and that they generally put on a good show.

As for this year this sucks, Vegas was on my dance card this summer. Oh well

Necros wrote:However, if the money and resources they are blowing on these tourneys gets reinvested and turned into some really awesome new models then I'm all for it

There's no correlation there. The US GT's come out of the US HQ budget, not the Studio budget. They could cancel every single event they hold year round everywhere in the world and it wouldn't affect the Studio budget/schedule.

Sad to hear hopefully they will be back next year

At least people will save the $125 entry fee + travel costs, and be able to use it to buy more minis.

They're probably gone for good. Just look how GW (Mostly Jervis) demonizes 'Tournament Players'...And goes off on how much tournament players are a minority.

I doubt they are gone for good. I think they were unable to get both Canadian GT/conflicts and US GTs going while the consolidation was still taking place. What we will probably see is one big circuit in US and Canada. I for one would be glad to see one large circuit -- cheaper for me to attend a Canadian GT in Vancouver or Edmonton then one in Baltimore. Would also mean Astronomicon would probably be added to the circuit as an indie, which is pretty cool as well. Time will tell.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:There are lots of good Indy GTs out therem and they are infinitely better than GTs. And they actually give out (Gasp!) PRIZES!

The GW GTs are well-run, and *much* better run than most local tournaments.

Regarding prizes, I got over $150 in stuff for winning Best Army Appearance at Baltimore last year. I assume the overall winner probably got $200+ in merchandise. How many local tournies pony up like that?

Hulksmash wrote:For every adepticon though guys there is a broadside bash. At a GWGT you knew what you were gonna get, every time. The level has always been consistant. With indy GT's your never totally sure about what your getting until you show up. Just because one event (Adepticon) runs a great event doesn't mean that all Indy's do. Having attended multiple indy and GW ran GT's I have to say I've always enjoyed GWGT's and that they generally put on a good show.

Nail on the head.

winterman wrote:I doubt they are gone for good. I think they were unable to get both Canadian GT/conflicts and US GTs going while the consolidation was still taking place. What we will probably see is one big circuit in US and Canada. I for one would be glad to see one large circuit -- cheaper for me to attend a Canadian GT in Vancouver or Edmonton then one in Baltimore. Would also mean Astronomicon would probably be added to the circuit as an indie, which is pretty cool as well. Time will tell.

Yep. You figure the GWUS events guys are now what, a two-man operation with Dave Taylor gone? And now they probably have responsibility for Canadian events too? Yikes. Let's give them a year to sort things out.

And come on, guys. Jervis has nothing to do with this. Jervis leads the design team in the UK and not the events team in the US/Canada. Blame Jervis for Codex: CSM, not operational stuff like this.

Too bad they also got rid of the Gamesday Tournaments.

That is unfortunate. Guess my current project gets put on hold then. Does that mean there is no Ardboys tournaments either?

Fine by me. Indy tournaments are far better in my opinion. the Exterminatus tourney in TN last month was very well done, and i had a blast.

Well damn, glad I made the trip to Adedpticon then, and Ill just have to shift my buget to go to more of the indy events. I have to say that the apnosphere her at adepticon is much more like a full convention than a typical GT. Just with there was something like this closer to phill. I just drove 12 hours to get here, for the one day event tomorrow. (could not get a team together, and did not decidde to go in time to put a gladiator army together)
still its a shame, baltimore is one of my favorite cities, I will miss GT followed by dinner at phillips harbor place

The one thing that the GT's usual have over the indy events is that the GT's are 5 games over two days. Most Indy GT's are only 3 games or in some extreme circumstances 4 games in one day.

The 5 game format is very nice if you've never done it. It's also a bit more relaxed because they have more time in each round.

I've heard of maybe 1 indy that is actual multi-day's, although I haven't done many of the indy tournaments.

wonder if the Baltimore Battle Bunker is going to step up and run stuff during that weekend...not that they could handle the larger crowds, but with the circuit set as it is, there aren't any events in the NE at all and that just plain sucks.

Off the top of my head, I look at it as a sound corporate decision by GW. GW (via Jervis) repeatedly states that Tournaments are not core to how they intend their games to be played, nor the sort of player that GW encourages. It is abundantly clear from all anecdotes and examples that GW wants players to be hobbyists first, concentrating on campaign-oriented play. It is no accident that every single main rulebook starts with TMIR and closes with mini-campaign rules or examples featuring linked missions, but never includes tournament rules or suggestions.

Now the tournament crowd on Dakka is vocal, and they kept saying "if GW didn't intend for Tournaments, they should cancel them, but as they still host them, obviously, GW intends Tournament play". I think GW's most recent announcement here puts that argument to bed. If Tournament play really did drive sales and encourage players, GW would continue to host at least 1 GT (Baltimore).

I think GW probably got a very good read on the NA economy, and is tightening down on all sub-optimal activities that don't clearly generate significant new and extra sales. Hence, the US restructuring, closing Canada, ending Tournaments, and shelving Dark Eldar in favor of Apocalypse, Planetstrike campaign, LotR expansion to WotR, and the Imperial Guard release.

/John
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Grimhowl wrote:If these events weren't generating the kind of investment they anticipated it's an easy decision for corporate HQ to decide not to spend that money.

People have met each other at GT's that never would have met face to face otherwise.

I don't think GW's GTs ever generated positive cash flow, at least not if a proper accounting were applied. I think these were always budgeted as Marketing events. Now that Apoc is in place and running strong, GW doesn't need the artifice of 1500-2250 pt GTs to push sales. 3k minimums for Apoc, and triple-unit Datasheets do that far more efficiently that GT lists ever did.

BTW, People will meet each other at Indy GTs, too.
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Polonius wrote:I think that GW realized that they can't afford to run a GT with paid staff that can compete with the Indy GTs and their volunteer staff.

Yup. In a lean economy, if they don't need the marketing exposure, then they shouldn't pay to compete with free.
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J'santai Khan wrote:Maybe Jervis is driving home his point - At the end of a very large sword!?!?

I think so, too.

Wow John. Wow.

What if my hobby is competative gaming? Just cause it's not your hobby doesn't mean it's not mine.

How does GW not want people playing when the tournement scene in england and europe is as strong as ever. They haven't cancelled the GT's there have they (on the continent where Jervis actually works)?Hmmm.....sounds to me like it isn't a decision to force player to be "hobbyists" but exactly what they said. The merger this year is causing a lot of issues as is losing a member of the event team.

And it's not the 1500-2250 that promotes more sales. Tournements do promote sales. Those of us that like to play competitively(sp?) probably have as many points at you do John, just spread out over several armies. It does sell, just in a different way. The reason being we like to change and tweak. You don't need to buy more stuff during a new edition since you play Apoc games but we do because we need to tweak based on new rules. Heck, i've got over 10k (maybe more) in imperial armies (sisters/sm/gk/ig), 3 k in orks, 2.5k in Nids, and another 5k in chaos. That's not even counting fantasy.

They have cancelled GT's before when they weren't going thru a merger and a lean time in the US.

And I hate to break it to you but they should have easily broken even on all sell out GT's except for the LVGT's when they ran them. The only reason the LVGT wouldn't be a break is because they hold it in a major hotel.

The LAGT's and Seattle GT's when we had them sold out. 250+ players paying $90 each (just for the tourney) so $13,500 not counting additional sales at the event itself. Let's see, GW made the tables once and used them for over 8 years. They own the truck that transports them. They use them for Gamesdays and GT's alike. They borrowed staff from local GW's (normally 2-3 redshirts, a local manager) and 3-4 HQ guys. They should be easily recouping unless they are bleeding somewhere I've never seen (and I worked for them for a few years).

Oh, and the support they have been giving Indy GT's is insane if they are giving out the amount on average that they gave to some of the local groups around here. If they didn't support tournements would they be shelling out for most of the terrain for the Indy's and prizes?

Just a few thoughts to add

I think the GWGTs will be back. In 2006 they only had one and it was in Chicago. Is this the last nail in the coffin for competitive gamers? No of course not. Will Apoc take over? Again no of course not. There over 10 locally run tournaments in Florida this month. Tournaments will always be very popular. There are over 1000 people here at Adepticon this year.

G

Hulksmash wrote:Wow John. Wow.

What if my hobby is competative gaming? Just cause it's not your hobby doesn't mean it's not mine.

Dude, I don't know where you coming from with this. Nowhere did I say that you were "bad" for playing Tournaments.

Well, that's a real shame.

In Germany the situation is a bit messy. GW decided to cancel the Heats and organize one large event for each system (LotR, 40k, Fantasy). Its called Thorne of Skulls. But they had bad luck so far to find appropriate places for these events.

You didn't say I was bad. You said that GW wants us to be hobbyists first. I'm just pointing out that that is part of my hobby and many other peoples. You heavily implied that tournements aren't part of the hobby.

Oh, and excellent job on not answering any of the logical counters to your statements

*GW* has said that they want us to be hobbyists first. That's what Jervis keeps trying to pound into people's tiny brains with his missives from the Ivory Tower and similar statements on the ground.

As for answering, they're mostly speculative.

We don't know the actual costs, but I can tell you that $13.5k revenue isn't a lot of money when you're talking about renting a conference hall that's staffed with union labor. For reference, that's a smaller budget than the average wedding ($20k+, was pushing $30k in many areas).

If GW has 4 management / developer guys attending, that's 2 days on the ground plus 2 days travel = 4 days per person, = 16 staff days. With salaries likely $50/hr ($80/hr after benefits), then you're looking at $640/person/day. So 16 manager / developer days is $10k just in staff costs.

Throw in 12 hotel nights ($40/night - double occupancy), and that's another $480 in lodging.

Add 16 days of meals ($40/day - high COLA areas), and shared transportation ($10/day), and that's $1280 more.

So far, I have:
$10,240 staff
$480 lodging
$1,280 meals & transportation

That's $12k just for the GW featured guests.

I haven't added in hall, the truck, the shipping or any of the other stuff, but yeah, GW almost certainly lost at least $10k per event. Probably, closer to $25k per event.

The on-site store can be excluded, as one can pretend that it covers it's own cost. But the event itself? Almost certainly not.
____

Note, if you want to quibble on the numbers, feel free. Just remember that this is corporate travel so salaries, travel costs and such will apply. Go ahead and start a new topic, and we can go over it in detail.

What really strikes as odd in this case is that GW are scrapping the US while running the EU(mainly brit.) to the same extent.

There are lots of "fan run" tournaments over here also but GW arent cutting their stuff because of that, so that points can be the main reason they are dumping US. Getting it run free etc. would affect both in similar ways if that was the case.

I really have no clue why they are doing this(but a good bet would be profit, since GWs profit hunger has reached alarming levels over the years), but it cant be for the better. It definently looks like they are cutting back on the US/Canadian markets with the latest changes though.

JohnHwangDD wrote:*GW* has said that they want us to be hobbyists first.

And for the millionth time every time someone mentions "The GW Hobby", this is an absolute bunk statement. What is a hobbyist? Someone who does something that is NOT their profession. GW doesn't run professional tournaments like Wizards and the DCI, so a GW Tournament Player IS being a Hobbyist. GW deludes themselves by saying crap like this to get out of things and claiming it's all in their interest and love for "The Hobby". It's complete and utter bull gak.

I'm not a big tournament player, I wanted to go to Vegas to hang out with my friend for the weekend, get in a bunch of games, and motivate myself to complete an army to the best of my ability(in other words: "be a hobbyist"). GW says otherwise. So now, I'm going to save up the money I was going to use to enter the tourney and probably pick up some FW stuff from there and go to Vegas that weekend anyway(I love not having to get a hotel) and spend it on something else. Congrats on losing yourself ~$400-500 in sales and tickets, GW.

Wise up GW: Everything we do concerning you is part of "The Hobby" and doing anything that prevents that ruins "The Hobby".

Platuan4th wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:*GW* has said that they want us to be hobbyists first.

And for the millionth time every time someone mentions "The GW Hobby", this is an absolute bunk statement. What is a hobbyist? Someone who does something that is NOT their profession. GW doesn't run professional tournaments like Wizards and the DCI, so a GW Tournament Player IS being a Hobbyist. GW deludes themselves by saying crap like this to get out of things and claiming it's all in their interest and love for "The Hobby". It's complete and utter bull gak.

I'm not a big tournament player, I wanted to go to Vegas to hang out with my friend for the weekend, get in a bunch of games, and motivate myself to complete an army to the best of my ability(in other words: "be a hobbyist"). GW says otherwise. So now, I'm going to save up the money I was going to use to enter the tourney and probably pick up some FW stuff from there and go to Vegas that weekend anyway(I love not having to get a hotel) and spend it on something else. Congrats on losing yourself ~$400-500 in sales and tickets, GW.

Wise up GW: Everything we do concerning you is part of "The Hobby" and doing anything that prevents that ruins "The Hobby".

Jervis and AgeOfEgos are now in a basement somewhere plotting your ultimate doom, downfall and destruction...

Alpharius wrote:Jervis and AgeOfEgos are now in a basement somewhere plotting your ultimate doom, downfall and destruction...

I welcome their attempt, I'm ready for 'em.

I think what John is trying to say is that Jervis, either on his own or speaking more broadly for GW, sees the actual playing of the game as a fairly small part of the hobby. Now, I"m guessing they see buying endless amounts of minis at the largest part, so they're not exactly unbiased, but I'm guessing that's their point.

Of course, the tragedy behind that is that GTs are the ultimate celebration of the hobby: you will never see more beautiful armies, more interesting themes, better done conversions, etc. than at a GT. I think GW is aware of this, and they're simply axing the GTs for fiscal, and not philosophical, reasons.

gorgon wrote:
The GW GTs are well-run, and *much* better run than most local tournaments.

I don't know were you got this from, we are not talking about a local 3 round RTT but 2 day 5 round tournaments with at least 40 players. The Independent circuit in the US and Australia blows the doors off of any official events. GW tournaments have been in severe decline for at least 5-6 years.

the uk one is easy.
they own the facility
all they have to pay for is staff.
they even have a bar where you can get pints between games.

Too bad AgeofEgos knows be my name and face now. I can't make fun of him (as much).

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I don't think GW's GTs ever generated positive cash flow, at least not if a proper accounting were applied. I think these were always budgeted as Marketing events.

I'll agree that the GTs did not directly create a positive cash flow. But what about indirectly? Let me tell you about the origins of the IronFist League. Way back when, 8 or 9 years ago, a small group of us were planning on attending the Baltimore GT, so we banded together and started a league, to give us an opportunity to play and prepare for the GT against other "competitive" gamers. That league grew in to a large club (over 100 paid members last year). Over twenty attendees at the Baltimore GT last year. That club has introduced or re-introduced dozens, if not hundreds of players into/back into the GW gaming hobby over the years. We've run tourneys, leagues, campaigns, held modelling, painting, and casting days, run demos and intro events, etc etc etc. Our annual Toys for Tots event (Six years now, IIRC) has raised thousands for TfT and dozens of boxes of toys. All because a half dozen or so guys wanted to get together and practice up for a GT. Had there been no GT, there might not have been an IFL. Point being, the IFL has indirectly generated thousands and thousands of dollars in sales. And many of the players I've met over the years at the GTs are just as involved in building their gaming communities and promoting the hobby. So even if only 10 percent of the GT players are as actively involved in promoting GW as the IFL did, then the indirect sales generated by the GTs do far outweigh the cost of the event. But, sadly, that can't be measured.

And yes, the IFL will continue to reach out and run events. Got a bunch of Cub Scouts coming by in a couple weeks for a gaming night. Might get the Boy Scouts down the road. We've already got a bunch of leagues, campaigns and tourneys planned or in the planning process. And of course, several have jumped up and are wondering what we can do to fill the GT void here in northern VA/southern MD.
But the biggest drawback to us doing something like that is the fact that we're the ones having to run it. That means many of us cannot participate and play. For me, that was always one of the biggest draws of the GTs. The fact that I wasn't working the event. Over the years at the GTs, I've helped set up, tear down, run registration, anything else that needed doing. Hell, I once drove to Toronto to help run one there. But come start time on Saturday morning, I'm at my table ready to play and enjoy the GT. That's what I'll miss. Anyways, I can indeed hope that they're just restructuring and that the GTs will be back next year. And yes, I know about the indy GTs. But alas, none of them are close by and easy to attend. Thinking about the Waaagh now that I've got some cash freed up, but there is a bit of a difference between driving 1 1/2 hours to get to a GT and driving 12+ hours to get to the Waaagh.

Polonius wrote:
Of course, the tragedy behind that is that GTs are the ultimate celebration of the hobby: you will never see more beautiful armies, more interesting themes, better done conversions, etc. than at a GT. I think GW is aware of this, and they're simply axing the GTs for fiscal, and not philosophical, reasons.

Amen to that, brother!

Lets not get into another hobby only elitest vs tournament players (who have a fun time competative or hobby) arguement.

Back on subject, its a bumer there gone but will most likely give the indy scene motivation for 2010 and GTs or not it will be the best tournament season yet!! Take that Jervis.hehe.

saw54 wrote:Lets not get into another hobby only elitest vs tournament players (who have a fun time competative or hobby) arguement.

Great way to avoid arguments, there.

don_mondo wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I don't think GW's GTs ever generated positive cash flow, at least not if a proper accounting were applied. I think these were always budgeted as Marketing events.

I'll agree that the GTs did not directly create a positive cash flow. But what about indirectly?

Let me tell you about the origins of the IronFist League. ... the IFL has indirectly generated thousands and thousands of dollars in sales. ... even if only 10 percent of the GT players are as actively involved in promoting GW as the IFL did, then the indirect sales generated by the GTs do far outweigh the cost of the event. But, sadly, that can't be measured.

But the biggest drawback to us doing something like that is the fact that we're the ones having to run it.

Heya Don - great points for discussion!

Indirectly, GW needs to compare GT indirect sales against WD, Apoc, FW Vraks, along with campaigns like Planetstrike and so forth. For example, based on GW's internal review of indirect sales tied to the WD BA Codex, GW decided that WD Codices didn't perform well. I assume GW does similar analysis for each of the other marketing releases. Right now, GW is very hot on Apoc, so one would conclude that Apoc is driving the most direct and indirect sales of anything they've got out there.

Now that doesn't mean that Tournaments don't drive some sales, just not as much. Prior to Apoc, I figured I had all the 40k I could ever use, primarily due to the Tournaments stopping at 2k. For example, when I was planning my CSM rebuild, I designed everything to fit within a single FOC. My sense of things is that Tournaments are OK for driving the first 2k in sales, along with pushing for some level of rules consistency, but the FOC Tournament approach is limiting beyond that point.

The IFL is tremendously cool, but I would attribute the success more to the dedication of IFL organizers and staff than to GTs or Tournaments. That is, I think you would do just fine, whether you were GT-oriented, Apoc-oriented, League-oriented, Campaign-oriented, or just plain "fun"-oriented.

And as you yourself note, perhaps 90% of the IFL is non-GT-oriented. So if GW can make more money from investing the same effort, then that is what they should do. For example, the first $90+ Apoc boxed set following a $50 Apoc rulebook probably beats the indirect sales on a $125 GT ticket.

Like you, as I'm well aware, the "cost" of organizing and manning a GT is very high. I think if you had to add up the hours of work that went into one of your events, and had to pay competitive full-time salaries for them, there is no way any of your major events could drive a profit.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

saw54 wrote:Lets not get into another hobby only elitest vs tournament players (who have a fun time competative or hobby) arguement.

Great way to avoid arguments, there.

haha i couldnt help myself...but i am quiting now.

John, probably closer to 20% within the IFL itslef. The 10% was a "what if" 10% of the GT goers were as active in promoting the hobby as the IFL attendees have been over the years. Anyways, I think the 'trickle down' effect of the GTs is pretty hard to measure. Over the years, I've done at least three armies just for the GTs. And I'm always buying new stuff for my personal favorite, IG. (New ccodex, woohoo!!) I've even got two IG armies, one for weekly play and one just for tournies. So I tend to buy two of everything that I want in my army. At least for this year, I may not be doing that. So all those new release puchases I'm goign to make got cut in half, directly due to the GT cancellation. And I'm a piker compared to some. I keep going back to my IG after playing something else for a year. Others I know do a new army every year, just for the GT. And yes, I already have heard from two or three that they're cancelling an army that they were going to do just for the GT. If only half of the GT population builds a new army for that year, the sales generated is what, 500-1000 per army? So couple hundred thousand or more in sales directly spurred by the GTs. Then the trickle down effect kicks in, generating at least that much more in sales, probably higher, as those GT players fuel the excitement locally by having and attending leagues, campaigns, and tourneys, just so they can get in some practice for the GTs.

As for Apoc, I couldn't say. While I may have thousands of points of IG, Marines, Nids, and my old GS Cult, I haven't had any desire to play them in Apoc. Don't know, something about it just doesn't appeal to me personally. Don't care much for 40K mega-battles either. Doesn't mean I don't help set up and run both within the club so others who do enjoy it can play, just means I sit back and organize/help run those events. Hell, we play it all, from Bloodbowl, Necromunda, and Epic, to 40K. Fantasy and Apoc. About the only system we don't have a strong draw in is LotR. But we've got a couple guys getting excited about WotR, so that might change.

Re paying salaries, many of the GT 'staff' are volunteers, all they get is a hotel room and some gift certificates. Many of us would volunteer just for the hotel rooms if that's what was necessary. Three or four GW personnel would be all that were needed, just enought to direct the volunteers. We're seeing this at Games Day Baltimore this year. They've actually got so many club tables (volunteers) coming in that they're not pulling in the usual 40-50 Kommando/Outrider volunteers that they've always needed to run Games Day. This will be the first year since 1996 that I haven't worked at Baltimore Games Day.............. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I didn't sign up to work one of the several events our club is running at GD as I was expecting to be working as a GW volunteer. Guess I'll just buy a ticket and wander around.

I think it's hard to measure the overall effect of GTs, simply because of self bias. If you take the same army, you're going to assume that most people keep on "GT" army on the shelf, whereas if you build a new army every season, you're more likely to assume that people build lots of armies.

The real question, I think is, is why didn't GW do what most companies do for these things: exploit local volunteer labor?

Edit: I saw the rest of Don Mondo's post, I guess they did. Huh.

Anyway, I think losing the GTs is bad for the overall development of the hobby. As an option, and as the showcase of the top talent in the hobby, GTs have at least some value as marketing and branding tools. Of course, if you're retrenching your business in a bad economic climate, you might lose some of those events to focus on more proven investments.

Polonius wrote:

The real question, I think is, is why didn't GW do what most companies do for these things: exploit local volunteer labor?

They do...................

don_mondo wrote:

Polonius wrote:

The real question, I think is, is why didn't GW do what most companies do for these things: exploit local volunteer labor?

They do...................

Yeah, I saw that and edited my post.

No GTs? Makes sense--the rules are not up to tournament standard and the codices are unbalanced.

skkipper wrote:the uk one is easy.
they own the facility
all they have to pay for is staff.
they even have a bar where you can get pints between games.

Although, the fact remains that if GW was anti-tournament because of some corporate marketing philosophy, they wouldn't have the UK events either. Although it's only one person pushing that agenda, as usual. Still, there's too many people here blaming everything under the sun, when the simplest, most obvious explanation is that the events staff is too overloaded and has too many things to sort out this year.

I'm eagerly awaiting the first person to say it's all Gav's fault.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If GW has 4 management / developer guys attending, that's 2 days on the ground plus 2 days travel = 4 days per person, = 16 staff days. With salaries likely $50/hr ($80/hr after benefits), then you're looking at $640/person/day. So 16 manager / developer days is $10k just in staff costs.

Throw in 12 hotel nights ($40/night - double occupancy), and that's another $480 in lodging.

Add 16 days of meals ($40/day - high COLA areas), and shared transportation ($10/day), and that's $1280 more.

So far, I have:
$10,240 staff
$480 lodging
$1,280 meals & transportation

That's $12k just for the GW featured guests.

Note, if you want to quibble on the numbers, feel free. Just remember that this is corporate travel so salaries, travel costs and such will apply. Go ahead and start a new topic, and we can go over it in detail.

You've built this example on a false premise. I've never attended a GT that had four VIPs from the UK. Some had one, most had none. So I've just cut this cost either to zero or by 75%.

don_mondo wrote:John, probably closer to 20% within the IFL itslef. The 10% was a "what if" 10% of the GT goers were as active in promoting the hobby as the IFL attendees have been over the years. Anyways, I think the 'trickle down' effect of the GTs is pretty hard to measure.

If only half of the GT population builds a new army for that year, the sales generated is what, 500-1000 per army?

As for Apoc, I couldn't say. While I may have thousands of points of IG, Marines, Nids, and my old GS Cult, I haven't had any desire to play them in Apoc.

Re paying salaries, many of the GT 'staff' are volunteers, all they get is a hotel room and some gift certificates.
Three or four GW personnel would be all that were needed, just enought to direct the volunteers.

Guess I'll just buy a ticket and wander around.

OK, though 10-90 is essentially the same as a 20-80 split from a revenue standpoint - whether non-GT are 90% or "only" 80% still makes the the overwhelming majority of gamers, even within the IFL. I agree that trickle-down is hard to measure.

I think your numbers are grossly high, but I don't care to dispute them too much. If you look at 5 GTs each with 90 seats, then you're talking about perhaps 250 full armies. $1000 is outrageous, given the SM dominance, so I'll agree to the $500 number (which is probably still high). But if you are right, then GW is looking at an indirect revenue bump of $100k to $250k USD retail. Whether they buy from Neal or GW locally (the extra revenue counts towards supporting the bunker/store model), GW grosses half of this before distribution, so GW corporate would see $50k to $100k revenue benefit. This is essentially comparable to the 5x $13k per event direct revenue. Given that GW probably loses $10 to $25k per event, assuming that you are right, GW *needs* at least half of the GT population to buy brand new armies just to cover the event direct loss. If less than half of the GT attendees buy all-new armies, and/or these are less-expensive armies, then GW is definitely losing money both directly and indirectly.

Per my estimate, there were 4 full-timers at the event, so that's $12k+ in cost right there.

How many hotel rooms is GW covering for the event?

____

gorgon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If GW has 4 management / developer guys attending,

That's $12k just for the GW featured guests.

Note, if you want to quibble on the numbers, feel free. Just remember that this is corporate travel so salaries, travel costs and such will apply. Go ahead and start a new topic, and we can go over it in detail.

You've built this example on a false premise. I've never attended a GT that had four VIPs from the UK. Some had one, most had none.

As I said, if you want to quibble, start a new topic.

I'll just note that the costs I gave were for costs on the ground and would have applied to GW Events organizer / other out of town manager. Whether they were from Baltimore or the UK didn't matter, as I didn't even reach a point to factor in airfare. In other words, the event was at a loss just factoring in the 4 full-timers that Don Mondo confirmed.

This proves that GW is run by monkeys.

I played in baltimore last year and about half my models I bought in the early 90's

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I said, if you want to quibble, start a new topic.

I'll just note that the costs I gave were for costs on the ground and would have applied to GW Events organizer / other out of town manager. Whether they were from Baltimore or the UK didn't matter, as I didn't even reach a point to factor in airfare. In other words, the event was at a loss just factoring in the 4 full-timers that Don Mondo confirmed.

Well, while we're "quibbling," I hazard to guess that GW also doesn't employ four events staffers with salaries of $100K+ a year. My company has a large team of events planners, and I'd guess only a couple managers are in that range. And I work in financial services, which tends to grossly overpay people, while GW notoriously underpays.

Interesting that you post obviously inflated costs to support your point, then claim those costs are somehow off-topic for the conversation.

I bet the GTs come back in some fashion. One of the huge costs to GW US was shipping tables and terrain thousands of miles.

I also think there's a certain amount of, "if we can't do it better than the Indy GTs, we shouldn't do it" at work - and I don't disagree with that. If people are going to set up and run a tourney, it's a lot cheaper for GW to just give prize support. Most stores can get $150 US in prize support at least several times a year to help sponsor local tournies.

Indy GT in Florida Jul 24-26

WWW.THENECRO.COM

Does this mean more non-GW parts can start sneaking in to tourney armies? Do indy GTs get (or need) prize support or promotion from GW with restrictions attached, or are most indys totally, well, independent of all GW support?

Perhaps this will lead to an explosion of new modeling possibilities, and maybe models from companies that can undercut GW's prices. West Wind heads are now looking better than ever. And if those Wargames Factory greatcoat guard models turned out well, they might have a whole new appeal.

Savnock wrote:Does this mean more non-GW parts can start sneaking in to tourney armies? Do indy GTs get (or need) prize support or promotion from GW with restrictions attached, or are most indys totally, well, independent of all GW support?

Perhaps this will lead to an explosion of new modeling possibilities, and maybe models from companies that can undercut GW's prices. West Wind heads are now looking better than ever. And if those Wargames Factory greatcoat guard models turned out well, they might have a whole new appeal.

I'm already seeing plenty of this as it is.

Right now, I have near zero compunction to not use another companies mini's for parts of my army - most of the GT's I care about are Indy events anyway.

Savnock brings up a point I think is being overlooked. The GT circuit was a GW models/ or at least a large portion of conversions were GW models.

With no Gw only tournaments, I wonder how many sales will be lost to cheaper models that look like GW stuff but aren't?

Not a bad question, without official GW tournaments why bother over paying for their models? New IG are a good example, they're increasing the price per guardsman with the new packaging scheme so why not just go out and buy all of the other model ranges that easily pass for IG but are significantly cheaper, and more often than not look better?

Hmmmmm...... GW just cost themselves $2000 in models $100 in paint and glue and $250 in entry fees because I won't be going to balitmore or vegas this year. Damn.... Way to go GW! At least you could have told me earlier so I could have planned to attended adepticon!

vonjankmon wrote:Not a bad question, without official GW tournaments why bother over paying for their models? New IG are a good example, they're increasing the price per guardsman with the new packaging scheme so why not just go out and buy all of the other model ranges that easily pass for IG but are significantly cheaper, and more often than not look better?

This might work for other Indys, but Adepticon still enforces GW/FW models only(aside from the Adepticon exclusive models, of course), so if you want to play there, you'll need an all GW army.

Past years, there have been more than four actual GW personnel, I'm saying they can/could run a GT with four paid personnel, filling more slots than they do now with volunteers. And their (GW) salaries are a lot lower than you have surmised. I don't quite make what you've postulated, and I'd have to take a huge pay cut to work in GoGo's spot.

However, you did miss a couple of the major expenses: 1. that is trucking all the scenery/tables to the GT location. IIRC, GoGo told me that runs about $5K, so we chop the salaries and add that in and we still come out about the same. 2. And then of course, the venue rental. No idea on that, but that is a major chunk of the cost of the event. The actual costs for GW employees is a minor matter compared to venues that can accomodate 250 or so gamers (ie 125 4'x6' tables), plus judges tables, etc. And the only hotel rooms GW pays for are theirs, plus rooms for volunteers, who double bunk or bunk with GW employees (I had Dave Taylor as a roomie a couple years back at one of the Games Days).

Base numbers for attendees, last year, three GTs, Baltimore, Chicago, and Vegas. Chicago bombed, primarily (IMO) due to it's date, being sandwiched in between Vegas and Baltimore. They made a mistake in scheduling, running three GTs in three months.
BaltGT, 245 players
ChiGT, 115 players
VegasGT, 247 players
So over 600 attendees at just three GTs last year, with one of them having a lower than expected attendance. SO if we say even half of those build new armies at approx $500 each, then we come up with about $150K in sales directly generated by the mere existence of the GTs. And then the trickle down starts. Even if we chop that figure in half, then at worst, factoring in the sales generated directly from those attending and building new armies for the GT, and lowballing the profit figure, we'll say $25K profit. And they're also getting 600 x entry fee as well, last year $125 IIRC, so another $75K. So that gives them a little less than $35K per event for three events before they start 'losing' money. IMO, they at least break even once you factor in the probable sales to players prepping for GTs, and then the trickle down from those players onto their local community actually generates positive revenue for GW.

Anyways, it's interesting to run the possible numbers for revenue generated, but very hard to nail anything down as solid. Sure, some players use old, old models or the same army, some build all new armies. Some go back and forth (Me.). I'm just going to hope that the GTs do come back and that they are new and improved. I've been pretty happy with them for the last couple years, and hopefully GoGo will be able to continue them in an upward trend.

If you want to go to a very nice event in SE US try the Maul at the Mall.
I've been there a few times and it keeps getting better. $1K in prizes this year!!!!

asugradinwa wrote: At least you could have told me earlier so I could have planned to attended adepticon!

This is my biggest gripe. They waited to long to say something.

malfred wrote:Too bad AgeofEgos knows be my name and face now. I can't make fun of him (as much).

Heh, the vacuum of the internet has began to diminish. Formerly, I had a minds eye image of your disembodied bag with eyes, opening it's pouch and speaking your posts out in a James Earl Jones voice.

Now, I have a minds eye image of your bag with eyes, opening it's pouch and speaking your posts aloud in a James Earl Jones voice.....while this person holds it high above their head in a submissive stance.

/It was nice to meet some of the Dakka members

winterman wrote:I doubt they are gone for good. I think they were unable to get both Canadian GT/conflicts and US GTs going while the consolidation was still taking place. What we will probably see is one big circuit in US and Canada. I for one would be glad to see one large circuit -- cheaper for me to attend a Canadian GT in Vancouver or Edmonton then one in Baltimore. Would also mean Astronomicon would probably be added to the circuit as an indie, which is pretty cool as well. Time will tell.

Doubtful unfortunately, they will most likely only run a few events in the most populous of cities.

Besides that I dont think the consolidation really hit them that hard, there is only 5 major canadian events; Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Gamesday and the GT (which is at the bunker so it shouldnt even count), besdies that there is the hall of heroes and posting all the indy events on the website.

Hmmm... is the GW-only ruling at Adepticon so strict that West Wind heads would disqualify one? I can respect the decision if so (after all, it makes modeling a bit more challenging to restrict materials).

But for other events, I'll be breaking out the Warzone figs and kitbashed Chimeras to get into the new IG.

Savnock wrote:Hmmm... is the GW-only ruling at Adepticon so strict that West Wind heads would disqualify one? I can respect the decision if so (after all, it makes modeling a bit more challenging to restrict materials).

"Models must include primarily Games Workshop or Forge World pieces (where applicable) supplemented by other hobby-based building materials (i.e. green stuff, plasticard, foamcore, elements from AdeptiCon sponsors, etc)"

Also, the old Armorcast 40K models are allowed.

From a simple cash flow standpoint, it makes sense to cancel GTs if their cost is indeed grossly out of line with whatever revenue they generate. I would seriously doubt, however, that their cost would be that high given their vertical integration. The highest cost for an "event" is almost always the rental fee for the building you're hosting it in. If you don't have a lot of fancy caterers or expensive A/V display contractors/consultants, then the rent is going to be the highest cost.

JohnD posted some numbers that are largely bogus when thinking about things logically; highly paid staff are either consultants or salaried. If you don't bring any consultants then your "cost per day" in wages is effectively $0 beyond time lost on the job, and four days isn't going to cost the company anything in oversight. Lodging in a large city runs about $120 per night if you book in advance, with a $25.00/meal allowance, so even a "high profile" GW staffer would only cost an average of about $205.00 per day after direct travel expenses (plane ticket). I based these numbers off of my own travel expenses for the last year, which included about 7 business trips to larger cities. And I work for a company much, much larger and more successful than GW.

From there I think it would depend largely on their accounting system for determining the value of prize support to generate the "loss" from prizes. If their accountants calculate the cost as wholesale value, then they haven't lost much, but if they base it off of what the model boxes would have sold for at retail price in a GW store, then obviously it's significantly more red ink on their balance sheet. Who knows how they actually do it.

But the largest hit should be space rental. I don't know what a convention hall on the east coast/Vegas costs, but most definitely in the thousands/day and I could realistically see it being tens of thousands/day.

So yes, GW probably saves some money by not running US GT events. However, this is a move that requires either brass balls or a lack of business sense. No company can "save itself into a profit", especially a retail-level company. By reducing their event presence there is a real risk of losing market share because they become just another game system on the shelf. I'm not saying they'll go belly up as a result of canceling their GTs, but GW just lost a whole lot of presence amongst competitive US hobbyists. This is a huge opportunity for some other system like Flames of War to step in and grab some market share.

I'm sure GW will rely on their young teen/youth recruitment in GW hobby stores model, but this sort of consolidation smacks of protectionist profit protection, not growth and expansion of a healthy business.

Per my estimate, there were 4 full-timers at the event, so that's $12k+ in cost right there.

Can't really count salaried workers pay. They are on salary, which means they get paid the same no matter how many hours they work or don't work. Now if they get paid an hourly wage, then it should get factored in. Otherwise, you can really only count travel cost and expenses.

EU tournaments are still going because they probably get a better turn-out. After all, it is easier to travel over there with their far better public transportation system. And if memory serves, they actually do tournaments for some of the other games, such as BFG and LoTR.

Why don't they just combine GD and GT? Seems they would get even bigger turn-outs if they did.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:If you want to go to a very nice event in SE US try the Maul at the Mall.
I've been there a few times and it keeps getting better. $1K in prizes this year!!!!

Seconded. The locals here are pretty friendly and aside from the usual tools a pretty well balanced crowd. The promoters are truly interested in promoting the hobby as a whole and making sure everyone has a good time.

Ironhide wrote:

Per my estimate, there were 4 full-timers at the event, so that's $12k+ in cost right there.

Can't really count salaried workers pay. They are on salary, which means they get paid the same no matter how many hours they work or don't work. Now if they get paid an hourly wage, then it should get factored in. Otherwise, you can really only count travel cost and expenses.

Thats not accurate. Divide the salaried income by 52*days involved. The time involved in the tourney is a cost vs. that time being spent in other activities.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Right now, GW is very hot on Apoc, so one would conclude that Apoc is driving the most direct and indirect sales of anything they've got out there.

How do you reason that Apoc is -the- big seller? People play more Apoc games than normal games in your neck of the woods?

For me, the cost of the rules alone are enough to deter me from being serious about Apoc ($100 for just the rules and templates - before models), considering that at huge points values, games take forever, and the gigantic amount of stuff that needs to be lugged around to play such a game means that realistically - for me, opportunities for playing Apoc games are few and far between. Blowing hundereds of dollars on models and rules for a 1-2 time a year game does not make sense to me. Playing in smaller events drives the majority of my purchases - be it tweaking the army list, or building new conversions.

YMMV of course.

Frazzled wrote:Thats not accurate. Divide the salaried income by 52*days involved. The time involved in the tourney is a cost vs. that time being spent in other activities.

Frazz: It almost sounds like you are implying that they do work!

Then it could be higher. Time taken away from work projects, plus possible work delays, canceled deadlines, and the such. Of course, I would assume they would have co-workers or lesser peons to fill-in and complete tasks with minimal direction. I'd probably assume wrong though. It is GW after all.

Frazz: It almost sounds like you are implying that they do work!

Hahaha!

Ironhide wrote:Then it could be higher. Time taken away from work projects, plus possible work delays, canceled deadlines, and the such. Of course, I would assume they would have co-workers or lesser peons to fill-in and complete tasks with minimal direction. I'd probably assume wrong though. It is GW after all.

Frazz: It almost sounds like you are implying that they do work!

Hahaha!

indeed!

I had even convinced the wife to let me go to LVGT!!

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I said, if you want to quibble, start a new topic.

Apparently, a *lot* of people want to quibble, so...

I started a topic to discuss the costs and revenues in detail
____

gorgon wrote:Well, while we're "quibbling," I hazard to guess that GW also doesn't employ four events staffers with salaries of $100K+ a year.

Fine, take it to the other thread.
____

don_mondo wrote:Past years, there have been more than four actual GW personnel,

So noted. I'll address back in the other thread...
____

sourclams wrote:The highest cost for an "event" is almost always the rental fee for the building you're hosting it in.

OK, as above, new thread...
____

Ironhide wrote:Can't really count salaried workers pay.

Actually you have to, but that's in another thread...
____

Again, new thread to discuss the costs and revenues

keezus wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Right now, GW is very hot on Apoc, so one would conclude that Apoc is driving the most direct and indirect sales of anything they've got out there.

How do you reason that Apoc is -the- big seller?

People play more Apoc games than normal games in your neck of the woods?

For me, the cost of the rules alone are enough to deter me from being serious about Apoc ($100 for just the rules and templates - before models), considering that at huge points values, games take forever, and the gigantic amount of stuff that needs to be lugged around to play such a game means that realistically - for me, opportunities for playing Apoc games are few and far between. Blowing hundereds of dollars on models and rules for a 1-2 time a year game does not make sense to me. Playing in smaller events drives the majority of my purchases - be it tweaking the army list, or building new conversions.

YMMV of course.

I assume that GW is a bunch of ing s who would their own (fill-in-the-blank) to make an extra buck. Therefore, if GW is pimping Apoc hard, it's what makes money for them. The harder GW pushes something (40k, Spaz Marinz, Apoc, WotR), the more it's making money for them. Apoc is seeing a ton of support, so GW is raking in cash or this would have gone the route of (Dark Heresy / Talisman / any Specialist Game).

We play a lot of Apoc-based stuff in our area. We are adult gamers who don't game often, so when we game, we make the most of it. Our last Apoc scenario game, we did 3v2 with 4.5k per side in less than 5 hours, from terrain setup to the end of Turn 6, and we had a blast. Oh yeah, we broke for lunch in the middle. This could easily have been completed within 4 hours.

Rules-wise, you need one person in the group to buy, and then you share. Or you do a group buy and all pitch in. The "huge" points are on a per-side basis - if you have a 2v2 of 3k to 5k per side, you're basically playing regular 40k doubles, with some sexy stuff. Games don't have to play forever, as above. 3k Doubles will probably only add an extra hour to a what you regularly play.

But hey, if it works, do it!

To say that any of this news is a shock would be a half-lie, after all, the NPPL (one of the largest Paintball leagues in North America) just collapsed, Upper Deck (the US distributor for Yu-Gi-Oh!), went through and canned their entire tourney organization staff a few months ago, and if you look at WotC, they converted their tourney system to be more retailer-centered and spread out than the GT events YEARS ago.

Honestly, I think it would make more sense for GW to run 1, maybe 2 invitationals based on a league structure, a la DCI, and concentrate on the retailer support for the tourneys... that way you get more people playing in the stores and making it more likely that they'll buy more stuff, and hopefully lead to a greater number of permutations in player lists, due to the constraints of a limited list of units, and desires to avoid/overcome/beat cheesy lists.

But maybe that's just me.

Dronze wrote:

Honestly, I think it would make more sense for GW to run 1, maybe 2 invitationals based on a league structure, a la DCI, and concentrate on the retailer support for the tourneys... that way you get more people playing in the stores and making it more likely that they'll buy more stuff, and hopefully lead to a greater number of permutations in player lists, due to the constraints of a limited list of units, and desires to avoid/overcome/beat cheesy lists.

But maybe that's just me.

I think GW did that back in the day. winners of the local tourneys were invited to "grand" tournaments. At least I think that's how it all got started. I think most of those were in Baltimore as well..

So why not put together a system similar to the DCI, sanction a few different tourney types and see what goes? GW is already giving out prize support for indy retailers, are they not?

Besides, it would actually be kinda cool, if done correctly, to have a database and rating system for tourney players... and it's not like it would be a massive investment to develop the software (contract with the software company that wrote the DCI program, or just go to the Army Builder people), and distribute it online via retailer support...

Heck, in time, they could offer something akin to Player Rewards, and offer some free limited edition miniatures for qualifying players... But I'm getting ahead of myself. Infrastructure first, then tack-on the goodies.

two_heads_talking wrote:I think GW did that back in the day. winners of the local tourneys were invited to "grand" tournaments. At least I think that's how it all got started. I think most of those were in Baltimore as well..

Not that I know of. I attended the first USGT (Baltimore, which was the only GT that year) in 1997 and still have the shirt to prove it. There was no heat system then. The only "invitational" thing they had that first year were games between the U.S. and Canadian GT champs, held at Games Day in Baltimore and open to the public. And that was the only year they did that, I believe.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I said, if you want to quibble, start a new topic.

Apparently, a *lot* of people want to quibble, so...

John, I can't imagine anyone really wants to discuss this with you other than to say 1) it's very unlikely they're running up $12K in costs for four GW events staffers for one tournament, and that 2) GW events people don't make $100K+ yearly.

I've done a little trade show work. There are a lot of costs involved that people don't think about, and those might still get you to your overall event price tag or more. Without being on the inside, we can't actually know. But your figures for staffing costs are likely off based on recent GTs, which is all Don and I are saying.

@Gorgon: I'm fine with corrections. Please address the cost comments to the other thread. Thanks.

AtraAngelis wrote:Indy GT in Florida Jul 24-26

WWW.THENECRO.COM

Our group is buying 4 tickets this week for the Necro as a result of the Baltimore GT being cancelled.


Although I'm still bummed the Baltimore GT is cancelled.

Ozymandias wrote:

I had even convinced the wife to let me go to LVGT!!

Must have used your cunning linguistics...wait, I messed that up.

skkipper wrote:
they even have a bar where you can get pints between games.

What's this 'between games' nonsense? Service to the table, mate, while you're playing

I'm guessing things will return in much the same way in 2010, but no longer called GTs. They've been rebranding in Europe along these lines.

malfred wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

I had even convinced the wife to let me go to LVGT!!

Must have used your cunning linguistics...wait, I messed that up.

heh.

Actually she was thinking of coming with me to the tournament and hitting up the Fashion Square Mall while I was gaming. She's a smart gal, knows I can't get mad on how many fething pairs of shoes she bought when I'm playing in a tournament using hundreds of dollars of small plastic men.

Depends on how much she spends on shoes, I'd guess...

That was how I used to go to the Atlanta Games Days. I get to play while my wife went off shopping for the day. Then, we'd get together with longtime friends for a great dinner and head home the next day.

Compromise. Toy soldiers and wife shopping sprees.

If they are restructuring that is one thing but canceling any sort of tournament at all is very odd. My question has always been why they didn't tie the Grand Tournaments to Games Days and hold them at the same time basically. That would reduce costs.

I would say the smarter thing to do would be to increase prize support for local gaming stores and then everyone benefits. Tournaments are run. Local stores get cash influxes and business. Games Workshop makes sales and keeps people happy.

Another thing I have been wondering is why is there a huge void of Games Workshop (both company presence and games played) at Gen Con? It is the biggest gaming con in the US. Why is there not an Indy GT there? Anyone know?

Most of the issues with a Games Workshot GT come down to two things inparticular. First is the space needed for each table and for the players at those tables this is usaly something along the lines of a 10'x6' with an isle after every 8 tables that should be as long as the hall and atleast 7' wide. What this does is require a much larger space in a convention hall for not that many people.

The second is the transportation and material cost. Basicly for each 2 people you are selling tickets for (not just those that have bought the ticket) you need a gaming table and lets say 6 pieces of terrain.

This does not even take into account the cost of the staff for the tournament and the prize support.

Now if GW brough back some of the uniqe store items that they used to have back in the day. Such as Forge World Ordering (with Free Shipping if not in stock), Bitz ordering at a discount (once again free shipping) these could also boost sales at these events due to the nature of what tournament players will buy. Any new produce comming out within a month or so should also be on sale for those at the tournament.

There is a good bit that GW can do to make the tournaments more poffitable but on its own it won't make that much money.

gorgon wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:I think GW did that back in the day. winners of the local tourneys were invited to "grand" tournaments. At least I think that's how it all got started. I think most of those were in Baltimore as well..

Not that I know of. I attended the first USGT (Baltimore, which was the only GT that year) in 1997 and still have the shirt to prove it. There was no heat system then. The only "invitational" thing they had that first year were games between the U.S. and Canadian GT champs, held at Games Day in Baltimore and open to the public. And that was the only year they did that, I believe.

perhaps the 'invitational' is what I'm thinking of.. To be honest, I moved to the NO. VA. area in 1999-2000 time frame, so that's when I was introduced to the whole 'invitational' thing.. Did it evolve from 1997 to a different format by 1999?

Does this mean more non-GW parts can start sneaking in to tourney armies? Do indy GTs get (or need) prize support or promotion from GW with restrictions attached, or are most indys totally, well, independent of all GW support?

Indy GT's DO NOT get prize support from GW. We must rely on our local retailers to help with prize support which dries up the support in the area for at least a month. Through advertising, marketing, etc...you may be able to get more but it does not come from GW. GW however started to throw in some terrain support to the Indy events but this year that was a little harder to get. I think honestly it had more to do with the restructure and the fact that they are watching every dollar. The events staff at GW want to help as much as they can but they are getting some pressure from above.

Personally I like the fact that most of the Indy GT's were higher point armies. Ours was 2k and most others are 1850. GW's 1750 does not do anything for our local tourny groups and we hunt for the Indy GT's.

If they are restructuring that is one thing but canceling any sort of tournament at all is very odd. My question has always been why they didn't tie the Grand Tournaments to Games Days and hold them at the same time basically. That would reduce costs.

They tried it at Chicago if I recall. I think they got a large amount of complaints due to the fact that they GT players could not do anything at the GD but old age is getting the best of me and I cant recall.

I was at Adepticon this weekend and this proves that large tourny events can happen...and happen at a profit. They just cant be a secondary item that is done half way. In building up my Indy GT circuit we knew we would lose money over the first few years as we were not established but eventually the event will turn a profit. GW is already established and if they put real effort into it they could turn a great event with profit but the upper eschelan in GW wont let the event guys put the right amount of effort into it.

Negativemoney wrote:Now if GW brough back some of the uniqe store items that they used to have back in the day. Such as Forge World Ordering (with Free Shipping if not in stock), Bitz ordering at a discount (once again free shipping) these could also boost sales at these events due to the nature of what tournament players will buy. Any new produce comming out within a month or so should also be on sale for those at the tournament.

There is a good bit that GW can do to make the tournaments more poffitable but on its own it won't make that much money.

Let's see. Forgeworld ordering - they did that and stopped. Bitz discounts - they did that and stopped. On-site store - did that and stopped. Provided lunch Sat and Sun - did that and stopped. One year (out of the ten I attended Baltimore's GT) you could order bitz and models on arrival and on Sat, and they'd drop them off at your table on Sunday. Talk about service. Ah, the good old days.

I agree that these things should be part and parcel to the GT experience, and they used to do them, but for whatever reason they stopped.

The format has always been the same for the GTs. As Gorgon mentioned, they did do a US champ versus Canadian champ once or twice, but that was it. The only other big change was moving from hotels (@100 attendees) to the convention centers.

Ironhide wrote:

Why don't they just combine GD and GT? Seems they would get even bigger turn-outs if they did.

You mean like the Chicago GT/Games Days for 207, 2006, and maybe even 2005? Yeah, been there, done that.