Straightforward question. Can beasts go up levels in ruins?

I would have to think they can....

dogs can, tiger can , cats can , raccoons can , horse can, sheep can , goat can hmm .... dotn see why not ,4 legs are 4 legs 0.o

Pg. 83,
"only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin -"

So, Beasts & Cavalry, Bikes, and Vehicles cannot presumably.

Bottle is correct.

It kind of balances the fact that beasts can charge 12" and have fleet

I agree except under beasts it says "Beasts move as infantry".

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Ok, lets crack out the RaW hammer.

RaW #1: Regarding movement

Page 54 wrote: "Beasts and cavalry move like infantry."

So far so good, however, we turn to...

RaW #2: Moving within Ruins

Page 83 wrote: "Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Emphasis mine.

Now, here we have two rules, both of which combine to provide the answer. You can scream about how beasts move like infantry untill the cows come home, but the rules for ruins are very, very clear. The question you have to now ask is this: "Is a unit with the "beast" type a "infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures [or] walker...?"

The answer is no by the way.

Therefore we look to the second part of the rule for guidance:
Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin.
Beasts are one of these "other" units, and as such, may not move into the upper levels of a ruin.


And now for something completely different:
On the Hormagaunts, the situation is a little trickier. The rules were written for a a different ruleset, and as such throw up contradictions like this.
To keep it at its simplest (that is, the way the Rules work now) is as such:

Flesh Hooks allow a Tyranid to:

Page 32 Codex: Tyranids wrote:"...count 'vertically impassible' pieces of terrain such as high walls or cliffs as difficult terrain instead."

All well and good, but it does not remove the restriction on beasts being unable to move to the upper level of ruins. The rules don't say "ruins are vertically impassible for beasts" the rules just say beasts cannot climb to upper levels of ruins, period.

Therefore, while flesh hooks allow you to count cliffs as difficult terrain, they still do not allow you to climb onto upper levels of ruins.

Yes its stupid, and I honestly suggest you house rule it, but that is how the rules work, and that is how the majority of people will play it (that is, they will not allow them to climb ruins).

EDITS: Added Hormagaunt part and fixed the linebreaks. Damn Linebreaks. Also Spelling and Grammar

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Bottle wrote:Not to de-rail this thread (though I think Gwar cleared it up anyway), but we always played the solid walls in a ruin area terrain as 'agreed impassable terrain' (as discussed on pg.14 of the BRB). So I guess it's not quite house rules, but has been agreed upon none-the-less. c:

HAHA, yes that is one way of looking at it yes.

Even so, its still classed as a ruin, and beasts cannot go above ground floor on ruins.

Honestly, if there are ruins on the board your best bet is to go over the rules for the ruins with your opponent before the game starts to make sure that there's agreement on all of the fiddly bits of the ruin rules. You just don't want to get into an argument on turn two or three when you try to assault the unit camped out in the ruins, and it comes down to "I thought I was safe from your guys" versus "I thought I could get to you there."

It does seem somewhat silly that beast packs couldn't climb up ruins, but maybe limiting them to a D6" charge instead of (highest of 2D6)x2" would be fairest. Climbing's hard work, right? After all, there are enough spots in the terrain and ruin rules which bend over backwards to avoid definite statements that a house rule or two can't hurt.

The image of a squad of guardsmen up on a ruin, laughing and pointing and taunting at the poor hormagaunts below, yapping like dogs trying to climb a tree.

Actually, that means the picture on the back of the tyranid codex, where there is a few guardsmen up on a firing step vs a gazillion gaunts... means they are safe from the hormagaunts so long as the building they are in is a 'ruin"... thats pretty funny actually.

Matt Varnish wrote:The image of a squad of guardsmen up on a ruin, laughing and pointing and taunting at the poor hormagaunts below, yapping like dogs trying to climb a tree.

Actually, that means the picture on the back of the tyranid codex, where there is a few guardsmen up on a firing step vs a gazillion gaunts... means they are safe from the hormagaunts so long as the building they are in is a 'ruin"... thats pretty funny actually.

You can blame Games Workshop and their inability to write for that. If you think it doesn't make sense just house rule it

Another flawed RAW interpretation.

If something moves as infantry, and infantry can move on the upper levels of a ruin, then that something can also move on the upper levels.

If I have a chaos sorcerer with gift of chaos on the top level of a ruins, and he turns a space marine into a spawn on that same upper level .... now what?

Beasts move as infantry, infrantry can move on upper levels, therefore beasts can move on the upper levels.

I'm with Gwar on this one, this is pretty air tight. The RB is very very explicit on what units may move on the upper level of terrain and beasts are not mentioned. In fact the very quote (from an above quote from Gwar) mentions that "other units" may not move on the upper level.

Does anyone know where the quote "beasts move as infantry" comes from?

One of the biggest...wait, no, the biggest failure in RAW interpretation is taking things out of context. All languages in the world *rely* on reading and hearing in context. Otherwise no one will be able to hold any real conversation or get anything right.

That quote which isn't complete btw comes form page 54 and it is listed in the 'exceptions to non-infantry' part of the RB where it lists the other types of units in the game that are not infantry which prior to page 51 is what the RB solely relies on from a rules perspective.

That quote is in the context of saying that cavalry and beasts move like infantry (i.e. 6" and takes difficult/dangerous terrain tests as normal).

The quote on who may move up and down ruins is found in the (surprise) Ruins and Moving within ruins section of the book (pg 83) and it is again very explicit in its definition of which units may do what and those units fit into the context of this paragraph and what the author is conveying to his reader.

Sazzlefrats wrote:Another flawed RAW interpretation.

If something moves as infantry, and infantry can move on the upper levels of a ruin, then that something can also move on the upper levels.

If I have a chaos sorcerer with gift of chaos on the top level of a ruins, and he turns a space marine into a spawn on that same upper level .... now what?

Beasts move as infantry, infrantry can move on upper levels, therefore beasts can move on the upper levels.

You're wrong. Beasts move as infantry but they are not infantry. Nor are they jump infantry, jetbikes, MCs or walkers. The rules dont say things that move like these unit types can move in the upper levels of ruins, the rules say only things that ARE these unit types can move on the upper levels of a ruin.

As per your example, the spawn would be unable to move, although you could house-rule it that it can move down.

And Hormoguants with fleshhooks, which can move in impassible terrain.... but not ruins which is admittedly easier?

Never Mind fleshooks = special rule for beasts that have it. I guess the chaos spawn is an exception too.

Anyhow it was pg 54 that said "Beasts and Calvary move like infantry" in the movement phase, they have fleet, and fleet ignores terrain type for movement, and... in the assault phase other than the 12" assault, "they assault just like infantry"


You know looking at the bikes rules on page 53. I wonder if bikes can get up into ruins too.
"Bikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain. They treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain"

And page 83 states that Ruins = difficult terrain.

Who knows

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At our club we generally just play ruins as area terrain. Walls and such are just considered difficult terrain rather than impassable.

Also, just to address the trolls in this thread, things that "move like" infantry are not always infantry. By that logic, a Dreadnought cannot move and shoot a heavy weapon, since if it moves like infantry it must be infantry. So no, beasts and Bikes cannot move to upper levels of ruins, and flesh hooks are just frag grenades. Live with it.

Of course you are welcome to try and explain why they may, ensuring you remember to include all the relevant rules (i.e. No pick 'n' mix and selective quoting), I will be happy to debate in a cordial manner (and explain why you are flat out wrong).

Just to completely split hairs, you might notice that all of the ruins in the rulebook are shown with LADDERS instead of stairs, so the rules are partially based on 'How would they get up to the second level?'. If you went out and built (or bought) a set of handicapped (or beast) accessible ruins with ramps and staircases, you'd probably get to win the argument.

Just curious, why wouldn't the rules for Flesh Hooks (Codex) trump the rules regrding beasts and ruins (Rulebook)? Course, to make this more confusing, what if, instead of stopping on a new level, the Hormagaunts stopped on the Impassible Wall they're using as Difficult Terrain (just wondering if the rules stop this from happening)?

The real question here is does the moving in ruins section of the brb where it is describing what can move in ruins is describing what movement types or unit types.

Answer that one, and you have the answer to this question.

RustyKnight wrote:Just curious, why wouldn't the rules for Flesh Hooks (Codex) trump the rules regrding beasts and ruins (Rulebook)? Course, to make this more confusing, what if, instead of stopping on a new level, the Hormagaunts stopped on the Impassible Wall they're using as Difficult Terrain (just wondering if the rules stop this from happening)?

No they do not, as I already Pointed out. Ruins are not vertically impassible terrain for beasts. They are just prohibited from moving above ground level, end of story.

imweasel wrote:The real question here is does the moving in ruins section of the brb where it is describing what can move in ruins is describing what movement types or unit types.

Answer that one, and you have the answer to this question.

Firstly there is no such thing as "movement types", only unit types. Secondly, eve though every Non Vehicle model moves/shoots/assaults as infantry unless otherwise stated in their unit type rules, that doesn't mean they can do everything infantry does (Bikes cannot run as per the Bike rules). The rules for ruins do not list beasts or bikes as a unit type that can climb ruins, therefore they cannot.

Gwar! wrote:Firstly there is no such thing as "movement types", only unit types. Secondly, eve though every Non Vehicle model moves/shoots/assaults as infantry unless otherwise stated in their unit type rules, that doesn't mean they can do everything infantry does (Bikes cannot run as per the Bike rules). The rules for ruins do not list beasts or bikes as a unit type that can climb ruins, therefore they cannot.

Really? So since there are no 'movement types' and the beast/cavalry entry says 'move like infantry' then it must mean they are infantry?

Also your example of dreadnoughts not being able to move and shoot would be accurate if there was not a written exception that states they can shoot.

Each and every unit/type of movement mentioned in the ruin movement entry in the brb has it's own movement rules.

Now believe me, I am on your side of the argument. However, there are some legitamate arguments from the other side.

imweasel wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Firstly there is no such thing as "movement types", only unit types. Secondly, eve though every Non Vehicle model moves/shoots/assaults as infantry unless otherwise stated in their unit type rules, that doesn't mean they can do everything infantry does (Bikes cannot run as per the Bike rules). The rules for ruins do not list beasts or bikes as a unit type that can climb ruins, therefore they cannot.

Really? So since there are no 'movement types' and the beast/cavalry entry says 'move like infantry' then it must mean they are infantry?

Also your example of dreadnoughts not being able to move and shoot would be accurate if there was not a written exception that states they can shoot.

Each and every unit/type of movement mentioned in the ruin movement entry in the brb has it's own movement rules.

Now believe me, I am on your side of the argument. However, there are some legitamate arguments from the other side.

You missed the point with my comment there. I was stating that there are no Movement types, only unit types. Beasts can "move as" infantry till Ragnarok but they are still the unit type "Beast"

Now, lets just boil it down to the VERY VERY simplest.

Find me a Single rule (no circular logic or looping rubbish) that says beasts can.
I have one that specifically shows beasts cannot:

Page 83 wrote:"Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Gwar! wrote:Now, lets just boil it down to the VERY VERY simplest.

Find me a Single rule (no circular logic or looping rubbish) that says beasts can.
I have one that specifically shows beasts cannot:

Page 83 wrote:"Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Please show me where this rule is refering to unit type. It does not say:

Page 83 wrote:"Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only unit type infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Is this an easter egg hunt? More than likely and I do think it is.

However, it also does not state:

Page 83 wrote:"Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only units that move like infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

The rule as written is somewhat ambiguous.

No, not it is not.

there is nothing else that the term "only infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers" can be referring to.

Twisting it about to say "Infantry doesn't mean infantry units but it means things that move like infantry" is just pure rape of the English Language.

And if it was like that, why wouldn't it be a lit simpler and just say "only non vehicles (except walkers) may move etc etc" since that is what your interpretation leads to.

If they wanted it to be "units that move like" they would have said that. By their very Definition Infantry, Walkers and such ARE unit types. To say "only those of the unit type" is bad grammar and redundant.

Ruins are always going to be ruins, whatever you do with them.

Aslong as you come at them from the right angle.. there will be vertically impassable sections to most multi-story ruins.

But at the end of the day : Codex > BGB

Therefor.. if a fleshhooking beast (y) comes up to a vertically impassably anything, it can move up it. It makes sense in both Raw & Rai. (Dont make me spell out either implication)

(I think youve though that yourself many-a-time Gwar )

Razerous wrote:Ruins are always going to be ruins, whatever you do with them.

Aslong as you come at them from the right angle.. there will be vertically impassable sections to most multi-story ruins.

How do you figure that? Ruins are ruins, as you said yourself. Difficult terrain tests, moving up a level requires at least 3", and that's it. There's no impassable terrain within a ruin.

But razerous, ruins are NOT vertically impassible terrain for ANYTHING!
The rules state that "only infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers" may climb up above ground level, so unless Flesh Hooks has a part that needs to be read in the light of a 78/234th moon that says "Beasts with Flesh Hooks may climb above ground level in a ruin", then they cannot.

RaW, Flesh Hooks cannot help beasts climb ruins, as stupid as it sounds.

What you do at any particular club is all well and good (hell at mine we allow it but thats beside the point), Rules as Written (the ONLY things we should discuss here) do not allow them. If you wanna house rule it, good for you.

Would i be correct in saying that gaunts cant go up in ruins, but a stompa can?

apocoli wrote:Would i be correct in saying that gaunts cant go up in ruins, but a stompa can?

Gaunts count as infantry not beasts iirc so they can move up lvls in ruins. Funny a stompa on the top lvl of a ruin...(not sure don't play apoc)

So a Beast cannot move up stairs in a Ruin, but
can move up stairs in an intact building?

apocoli wrote:Would i be correct in saying that gaunts cant go up in ruins, but a stompa can?

I don't actually have the Apocalypse books to hand, but if there is nothing in the Super heavy Walker Rules that forbids it, then yes they may.

Of course it being fun and silly apocalypse I think it would be best to not even try and worry about such nonsense.

If you read the rules concerning ruins carefully, there is an important assumption being made about movement between levels in a ruin. All of the unit types listed in the first paragraph of page 83 have a plausible mechanism for traveling from one level of the ruin to another--the jetbikes and jump infantry can fly, and the rest can use one or the other of the options in the paragraph at the bottom of page 83 to get from one level to another.

The rules don't say "The upper levels of ruins are impassible to everything not in this list: ...", it says that they can't move onto that level using those rules. The book uses the words "clambering to the upper levels of the ruins," for Pete's sake. So the little tyranids aren't allowed to 'clamber' onto the upper levels, instead they get to climb the impassible walls up to the upper levels.

To use fleshhooks to move from one level to another, all you would need to do is agree that the walls of the ruin are 'vertical, impassible terrain'. (Guess what happens if walls aren't vertically impassible... ) The consequence of that would be that all of your movement between levels would have to involve moving back and forth along those 'vertical, impassible' walls, and not using the more convenient mechanism allowed to models on page 83's approved list.

Fluff to support rules = Fail beyond words.

That's rich. Hormagaunts can't get up a staircase and the Carnifex can look back and shout "come on guys!!!"

Oldgrue wrote:That's rich. Hormagaunts can't get up a staircase and the Carnifex can look back and shout "come on guys!!!"

That's what the rules say?

I fail to see any point behind that post.

Belphegor wrote:So a Beast cannot move up stairs in a Ruin, but
can move up stairs in an intact building?

Only infantry can enter intact buildings

The rules for beasts appear after the rules for moving in ruins, correct? The BGB is a hierarchical ruleset, where rules that appear later often modify or refer to rules stated earlier, yes?

If beasts "move like" infantry, and infantry may move on the upper levels of a building, I would appreciate Gwar's pointing out his reasoning regarding why the beast rules don't override the earlier entry.

Applying the RAW properly, the rules for beasts allow them to move everywhere that infantry can. The "only" that Gwar's argument relies on is irrelevant to the discussion.

Edit: Sorry for the thread necromancy, but 5th is still new and relevant, and I still have movement questions of my own, this among them.

ColonelEllios wrote:If beasts "move like" infantry, and infantry may move on the upper levels of a building, I would appreciate Gwar's pointing out his reasoning regarding why the beast rules don't override the earlier entry.

Ruins give a EXACT list of what can move up. Therefore, nothing else can.

You failed to address my point that the beast rules take precedence over that list.

Beasts move like infantry. That is the only relevant statement in the BGB to this discussion. If you disagree with me on this, you need to prove that I am wrong in stating that the beasts rule takes precedence concerning units with the unit type "beast."

The next question to ask is "where can infantry move..."

Edited for clarity.

ColonelEllios wrote:You failed to address my point that the beast rules take precedence over that list.

And how do you arrive at that notion?

I'm just gonna say beasts can. Just to be annoying.

@Sourclams: Because the rule appears later on in the BGB, thus stating a new rule that takes precedence over earlier ones regarding beast units.

Edit: In case the observation that the rules in the BGB are listed in descending order-from general to more specific-had escaped anyone here, I'm going to go ahead and remind anyone confused by such an observation to take a long, hard look at the table of contents in the beginning of the BGB.

ColonelEllios wrote:You failed to address my point that the beast rules take precedence over that list.

Beasts move like infantry. That is the only relevant statement in the BGB to this discussion. If you disagree with me on this, you need to prove that I am wrong in stating that the beasts rule takes precedence concerning units with the unit type "beast."

The next question to ask is "where can infantry move..."

Edited for clarity.

The listing at the top of pg 83 is listing what unit types can move on upper levels of ruins.

Beasts moving like infantry does not mean 'counts as infantry'.

Beasts are not on the list. Beasts are not infantry. Beasts cannot move on upper levels of ruins.

Beasts moving like infantry is irrelevant to this discussion.

Just to answer the title of the thread, instead of the body of the thread, because they are different questions:
The rules for ruins don't include rules for stairs.

So wait. If you...no...hang on. This is really difficult. This can be interpereted both ways. hmmmm, no really, the arguments for both side are pretty solid.

Infantry can move through buildings. (Beasts not Mentioned)
Beasts move like infantry.

I would say that the answer would be yes. Just becuase for game turns (especially in cityfight or somesuch) it seems too pendantic to utterly render beasts uesless in such a way.

I would say the list of what unit types in the book that is allowed to clamber up and about in ruins covers it quite nicely.

For the "it says move like so it must be the same crowd" I think the winged chaos argument is worth looking at.

Plus, you essentially arguing otherwise for allowing rough rider cavalry to scale up buildings.

If you wish to persist in claiming that beasts can move about "upstairs" as "they move like infantry" they you must also limit their move to 6 inches as you are disregarding some of the rules for being of a new/different unit type, which include, as listed in the relevants ection of the rules, a restriction upon them etc etc.

Now I agree it does seem a bit daft, but no dafter than allowing rough riders to climb up buildings. You'd think that Karranak, the most lethal of Khorne's famed hunters, who can track you through space and time, might, maybe, have figures out how to go upstairs, but....

stompa is a super heavy walker which is not listed as being able to go up in ruins by RAW.

I rarely see stairs and ramps in ruins. I can see hormogaunts clambering up some ramps potentially, but that's a very specific scenario.

Exactly how is a unit of roughriders supposed to get up a ladder? Leave hormogaunts out of it; they're one specific type of beast and we should not limit the discussion of beasts to them. Exactly how do calvary...horses...climb a ladder? I don't see it happening.

And hormogaunts: They're pretty dumb. If the means of getting from floor #2 to floor #3 is via elevator with an encrypted passcode written on the wall for only intelligent beings to read, exactly which of them are going to don reading glasses to decypher the code? I mean....c'mon.

And what if transition between floors required use of a teleportation pad and an operator control floor such as those found in Star Trek? Do you have a hormogaunt named Scotty? Does he have an Irish brogue? Because if you don't....I don't see those hormogaunts getting very teleport happy at all. Nope.

You could try compromising:
Treat them as if they have cow knees. Thus, they can go up the stairs but subsequently can't go back down.

Its been stated already a couple of times. A beast is a beast, and infantry is an infantry. Moving like an infantry is not the same at all as counts as infantry.

Beasts could go into ruins if their rule was they count as infantry for movement purposes. It isn't though, it is just a shortcut of printing to tell you to use the general movement rules of infantry.

You use the general movement rules of infantry, but any special conditions that allow infantry to do something does not mean beasts can then do it, since they do not count as infantry.

@ImWeasel: Merely restating your obvious and shortsighted interpretation of the rules does not make you any more right, or add anything at all to your argument.

As per Dictionary.com:

"Like" : OF THE SAME form, appearance, KIND, character, amount, etc.: I cannot remember a like instance.

So, to continue the grade-school pedantics:

Applying the Beast rules to the rules for ruins, which state that they move like infantry, then one can include beasts under the "infantry" type listed for ruins.

One might mentally append the section on Ruins to read: "only ... infantry (beasts)... may move on the upper levels of ruins"

Beasts are not excluded from the list, because they move LIKE INFANTRY in ruins.

You people fail at the English language.

Emphasis added for clarity

Gaunts can go up ruins, hormoguants can't. Apparently as soon as you give a guant scything talons he loses the ability to climb stairs. I agree that the rules clearly state beasts no climb, however, I would house rule hormoguants being able to do it, nids got beat with the nerf stick enough with 5th, lets cut them a break.

Hormagants (and Raveners, blah blah) cannot. The other gaunts can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the problem is more basic than this.

Fielding Hormagants in 5e is a problem in and of itself.

^^

ColonelEllios wrote:@ImWeasel: Merely restating your obvious and shortsighted interpretation of the rules does not make you any more right, or add anything at all to your argument.

As per Dictionary.com:

"Like" : OF THE SAME form, appearance, KIND, character, amount, etc.: I cannot remember a like instance.

So, to continue the grade-school pedantics:

Applying the Beast rules to the rules for ruins, which state that they move like infantry, then one can include beasts under the "infantry" type listed for ruins.

One might mentally append the section on Ruins to read: "only ... infantry (beasts)... may move on the upper levels of ruins"

Beasts are not excluded from the list, because they move LIKE INFANTRY in ruins.

You people fail at the English language.

Emphasis added for clarity

Nice definition, but it only further shoots holes in your argument. Nothing in what you looked up defines beasts as being exactly as infantry, only like them or of the same form, or appearance.

The rule clearly defines, "only infantry...". For you to want to dual classify your beasts to get all the bonuses of them with none of the negatives just points to you being a cheater.

Again, from Dictionary.com:

Kind (noun) a class or group of individual objects, people, animals, etc., of the same nature or character, or classified together because they have traits in common; category: Our dog is the same kind as theirs.

You fail. Again.

For proximity's sake:

ColonelEllios wrote:"Like" : OF THE SAME form, appearance, KIND, character, amount, etc.: I cannot remember a like instance.

People, for the purposes of moving in ruins, beasts ARE TREATED AS infantry. Dur.

ColonelEllios wrote:You people fail at the English language.

Oh the irony.

Beasts move like infantry. If they were allowed in ruins, they would move like infantry moves in ruins.

Beasts are not on the list of allowed unit types in Ruins. Infantry is on that list. Since beasts are not infantry, nor do they count as infantry, infantry being on that list does not mean anything for beasts.

It never gets to the point of mattering which movement rules you use for them in ruins, since they aren't allowed in ruins in the first place.

Beasts move like infantry, and infantry move in ruins.

Based on the definitions above, Kaaihn, which state that beasts are "of the same kind" as infantry, which is to say that, for this purpose, they ARE infantry (or are included in the same "group", whichever); the book tells you that beasts can move in/on ruins.

Oh gee, here we go again. . .

Let me hear your take on winged DPs then?

*Flashback to another travesty*

(tip: "Moves like" does not mean "Becomes")

kirsanth wrote:(tip: "Moves like" does not mean "Becomes")

It does when the book says so specifically for the purposes of movement. For the purposes of movement, beasts are included in the "group" with "infantry" in the rules for ruins.

You are correct, or rather you would be if the book actually said that.
And you still fail at english.

It says they move as infantry. Not become infantry in the movement phase.

They remain beasts.

And beasts cannot go up stairs.

Stairs have nothing to do with this discussion.

"Move as" or "move like" infantry means quite simply that you treat beasts AS infantry when considering movement.

Beasts do not become infantry at any point. As per the definitions I have posted--which are accepted English language definitions--beasts are included in the same group with infantry for the purposes of moving in ruins, and are therefore included in the so-called restrictive list in question.

Note the repetition of the verb "move" in all three rule clauses.

Whether or not you consider beasts as "becoming" infantry for the purposes of movement is mostly irrelevent, but not wholly wrong.

And beasts are not allowed up stairs/upper level/anything other than the floor of the ruins

No, but Infantry are, and beasts are LIKE infantry when MOVING THEM.

Are you debating the meaning of the word "like?" Are you debating that Beasts are treated for all intents and purposes as infantry in the movement phase, as their SPECIAL RULE states?

The fact that they are beasts is irrelevant to the rules for ruins, because they HAVE RULES THAT STATE that they count as infantry when they are moving. And the rules for ruins are specific to infantry movement. Read a dictionary.

@ ColonelEllios
"Movement" has nothing to do with going up stairs in buildings.

"Moving within Ruins" (a completely different and separate rule) states that only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, MC and walkers can move on the upper levels

Since Vehicles (that aren't walkers), Beasts, Artillery and Bikes are not listed they cannot move above ground level

ColonelEllios wrote:Beasts move like infantry, and infantry move in ruins.

Based on the definitions above, Kaaihn, which state that beasts are "of the same kind" as infantry, which is to say that, for this purpose, they ARE infantry (or are included in the same "group", whichever); the book tells you that beasts can move in/on ruins.

No, they are not "of the same kind". They simply move like infantry. This means you use the infantry movement rules for them, as detailed on page 11-14.

Any place that allows infantry but no others would not allow beasts. Moving like infantry does not make them infantry. The wording needed would be "counts as".

To me, the rules for some of GW's unit types are unclear.

Specifically, can a model have 2 unit types? If a model gains one unit type, does it lose its other unit type?

If a model gains the ability to 'move like jump infantry' does it become jump infantry, or are you still allowed to take the unit in a transport?

The rules for Beasts & Cavalry say that they "... move like infantry...". The rules for movement are found on pages 11 through 14 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook. The rules for ruins are found on pages 82 through 85. It doesn't matter if Beasts & Cavalry "... move like infantry..." because it's not the movement rules that forbid them from entering ruins. It's the rules for ruins that prevents them from entering. How they move is inconsequential and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they can enter ruins.

With the exception that they "move like infantry," which I've already shown above to mean "included in the same group as infantry." Or, if you prefer to state it another way, with regards to movement, beasts are ANALOGOUS to infantry.

Therefore, if infantry are allowed to move in ruins, then beasts are included as infantry in that list.

If the Ruins rule stated that "only infantry can occupy the upper floors of a ruin" then you would be technically right. However, the rules for ruins specifically invoke "movement" and therefore the Beast rules apply.

No, Ellios, you haven't. Their unit type does not change, and it is their unit type that determines their ability to move or not move into the upper levels of the ruins.

ColonelEllios wrote:With the exception that they "move like infantry," which I've already shown above to mean "included in the same group as infantry." Or, if you prefer to state it another way, with regards to movement, beasts are ANALOGOUS to infantry.

Therefore, if infantry are allowed to move in ruins, then beasts are included as infantry in that list.

If the Ruins rule stated that "only infantry can occupy the upper floors of a ruin" then you would be technically right. However, the rules for ruins specifically invoke "movement" and therefore the Beast rules apply.

ok ok lets assume you are correct lets see if holds true ... Artillery also moves like Infantry , In fact bikes also uses the rules for movement like infantry but can move up to 12" .

So why wouldn't its list only non-walker vehicles being able to go above ground level? It is very simple, "MOVING WITHIN RUINS" is the rule that allows any one to move within a ruin.

Infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, MC and walkers can move on the upper levels. Other units may only move on the ground level.

Since beast are not included in that list they must be part of the "other units" and can only move along the ground

+1

Can we put this tedious argument to bed at last?

Trasvi wrote:To me, the rules for some of GW's unit types are unclear.

Specifically, can a model have 2 unit types? If a model gains one unit type, does it lose its other unit type?

If a model gains the ability to 'move like jump infantry' does it become jump infantry, or are you still allowed to take the unit in a transport?

Yes it can be both, and no it does not need to lose one to gain one. That is part of what is . . . missed.

A winged Hive Tyrant is both a Monstrous Creature, and Jump Infantry.

A Winged Daemon Prince is a Monstrous Creature that moves like Jump Infantry.

I alluded to this earlier but ColonelEllios did not deign to respond to that one, as that thread was beaten to death worse than this one has (so far) been.

The Hive Tyrant with Wings takes dangerous terrain when starting there - he is Jump Infantry.
The Daemon Prince with Wings on the other hand is not, so takes no test.

Can we stop now?

They're only included "... In the same group as infantry..." for movement. Being able to enter ruins has NOTHING to do with movement. The rules don't say that they count as infantry for entering ruins, do they? No. So they can NOT enter them.

@ Kirsanth: So, if a model can be two types of units, then beasts count as infantry when moving, no?

@Ghaz: As usual, you couldn't be more wrong.

Page 83 wrote: "Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Nothing there about who can enter ruins.

No. You're the one who's wrong. Moving like infantry does not make them infantry. Otherwise why have rules for Beasts & Cavalry in the first place? They still can not enter the upper level of the ruins because as Beasts & Cavalry they can NOT. They're not on the list of units that can enter the upper levels of ruins, are they? No they're not.

I understand that beast may not be able to simply climb vertically up a building, but up stairs? or a ramp? Now that's just being ridiculous.

"Moves like infantry" is still a pretty strong arguement, and only one person has done anything credible against it by argueing it needed to be "counts as", not "moves like". In any case, people will then start to argue what is an upper level of a ruin. With CoD it is ussualy clear enough, but what about ramps leading to buildings? Then it would be stupid to argue that the beasts can get up.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I understand that beast may not be able to simply climb vertically up a building, but up stairs? or a ramp? Now that's just being ridiculous.

Like space elves and sentient space fungi or star vampires? Those are the rules, whether you find them ridiculous or not.

Emperors Faithful wrote:"Moves like infantry" is still a pretty strong arguement, and only one person has done anything credible against it by argueing it needed to be "counts as", not "moves like".

'Moving like infantry' is not a strong argument. How they move is not what allows them to to move into the upper levels but their unit type. Just because Beasts & Cavalry move like infantry their unit type does not change. They are NOT Infantry. They are still Beasts & Cavalry.

Emperors Faithful wrote:In any case, people will then start to argue what is an upper level of a ruin. With CoD it is ussualy clear enough, but what about ramps leading to buildings? Then it would be stupid to argue that the beasts can get up.

That is for both players to decide before the game. Regardless, it does NOT allow Beasts & Cavalry to move into the upper levels of ruins.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I understand that beast may not be able to simply climb vertically up a building, but up stairs? or a ramp? Now that's just being ridiculous.

"Moves like infantry" is still a pretty strong arguement, and only one person has done anything credible against it by argueing it needed to be "counts as", not "moves like". In any case, people will then start to argue what is an upper level of a ruin. With CoD it is ussualy clear enough, but what about ramps leading to buildings? Then it would be stupid to argue that the beasts can get up.

Ok lets explain how the rule works. Nothing can normally move vertically. You can walk up hills and slopes. Ruins have rules for moving within them that effect models differently. Any of the listed models may move vertically as far as they can move horizontally. Now if you have a staircase (not ladders) in the ruins beasts could use that to get above ground level. But In order to get back onto the ground they would need to use another slope to get down.

In fact it should be noted that if the slope to a second level in a building is big enough you could even drive a LR onto the second floor of a ruin.

Okay. Here goes.

Quoted from the YMDC sticky:

"Forgetting That the Specific Overrules the General

The rules are written so that a more specific rule supercedes a general rule. If your argument fails to take more specific rules into account, then your argument is flawed.

i.e. the general rule states that units cannot regroup if below 50%. But space marines follow And They Shall Know No Fear, which allows them to regroup even when below 50%. That rule is more specific because it applies to a smaller group or more specific situation."

The rule for "Beasts" references movement, and what beasts count as while they are moving (I've already shown that "moves like infantry" is semantically the same as "regarded as infantry when moving." The MORE SPECIFIC rule for "ruins" invokes "movement" on the upper floors of ruins. Because beasts move like infantry, and the ruins rules refer to "movement," the only conclusion supported by the rules of the English language and the codex is that Beasts are considered infantry for the purposes of movement, and are therefore allowed to move, like infantry, on the upper floors of buildings.

I ONCE AGAIN CALL FOR AN ORK FACEPALM ICON.

shrug

Beasts still have to follow 40k rules.

Those rules actually say ColonelEllios is wrong.

On page 83.

(Tip: The word "only" is important.)

ColonelEllios wrote:Okay. Here goes.

Quoted from the YMDC sticky:

"Forgetting That the Specific Overrules the General

The rules are written so that a more specific rule supercedes a general rule. If your argument fails to take more specific rules into account, then your argument is flawed.

i.e. the general rule states that units cannot regroup if below 50%. But space marines follow And They Shall Know No Fear, which allows them to regroup even when below 50%. That rule is more specific because it applies to a smaller group or more specific situation."

The rule for "Beasts" references movement, and what beasts count as while they are moving (I've already shown that "moves like infantry" is semantically the same as "regarded as infantry when moving." The MORE SPECIFIC rule for "ruins" invokes "movement" on the upper floors of ruins. Because beasts move like infantry, and the ruins rules refer to "movement," the only conclusion supported by the rules of the English language and the codex is that Beasts are considered infantry for the purposes of movement, and are therefore allowed to move, like infantry, on the upper floors of buildings.

Course, for your argument to work, you have to ignore the more specific rule that says only these unit types can move into the upper levels.
Again, Beast are not Infantry, no matter how they move. The rules for ruins limit what unit types can move into the upper levels, and Beasts are not one of those unit types.

Beasts cannot go up floors, if a man barks like a dog, he does not become a dog, if a man walks like a duck, he is not a duck, and for your argument to work it would state something such as, "Move like infantry and changes the beast unit type to infantry unit type" At no point does a model magically change from one type to another. It states only certain unit types may climb up walls. The beast type is not mentioned, and although you may quote move as infantry all you like, it nowhere says "removes beast type and becomes basic infantry."

How does moving through ruins have nothing to do with moving?

Beasts are considered to be infantry in the movement phase. They are Infantry -> Beasts -> Beasts.

If youre going to claim beasts are not infantry in the movement phase, I guess by this logic that my winged daemon prince doesnt have to take dangerous terrain tests either because only jump infantry have to, and hes a MC. (However, he doesnt because he moves like jump infantry and takes all their rules).

Night Lords wrote:How does moving through ruins have nothing to do with moving?

Beasts are considered to be infantry in the movement phase. They are Infantry -> Beasts -> Beasts.

If youre going to claim beasts are not infantry in the movement phase, I guess by this logic that my winged daemon prince doesnt have to take dangerous terrain tests either because only jump infantry have to, and hes a MC. (However, he doesnt because he moves like jump infantry and takes all their rules).

Oh no thats wrong. If you move as a MC you don't take a dangerous terrain test, you do if you move as jump infantry.

Now back to the rule. no models have rules for moving vertically. You must move horizontally. Ruins works differently and some models now get the option of moving vertically. 3" Vertical movement for every 3" they can move horizontally. These lucky models are Infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, MC and Walkers

Night Lords wrote:How does moving through ruins have nothing to do with moving?

Beasts are considered to be infantry in the movement phase. They are Infantry -> Beasts -> Beasts.

If youre going to claim beasts are not infantry in the movement phase, I guess by this logic that my winged daemon prince doesnt have to take dangerous terrain tests either because only jump infantry have to, and hes a MC. (However, he doesnt because he moves like jump infantry and takes all their rules).

OH PLEASE GIVE US A FACEPALM ORK!!!!!

Moves like does not ANYWHERE mean becomes.

"If youre going to claim beasts are not infantry in the movement phase"

I will not claim it. I state it as fact and have shown the actual text proving it.

Tri wrote:
Oh no thats wrong. If you move as a MC you don't take a dangerous terrain test, you do if you move as jump infantry.

Now back to the rule. no models have rules for moving vertically. You must move horizontally. Ruins works differently and some models now get the option of moving vertically. 3" Vertical movement for every 3" they can move horizontally. These lucky models are Infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, MC and Walkers

Just like how when you move as infantry you may move into ruins. No difference between:

(A)"Infantry, jump infantry...etc (doesnt list beasts) may move into ruins"

(B)"If a jump infantry model lands in....it takes a dangerous terrain test"

You argue either both count as the models theyre moving as, or you argue neither can/have to do these thing, because their model type isnt listed.

Winged DP is a monstrous creature that has the option of moving like a Jump Infantry.

The assinine position that its BECOMING Jump Infantry would force said DP to LOOSE his MC status during movement - for no reason in the rules.

The same applies to Beasts.
Nothing in the rules _ever_ stops them from being a "Beast", and thus they must _always_ follow all restrictions and rules that cover Beasts.

Also note (this is another repetition): Movement rules =/= Ruins rules. Following Movement rules for infantry has no bearing on the Ruins rules. They are not even in the same section.

So then the prince doesnt take dangerous terrain tests when he lands. I play both CSM and tyranids, one has beasts and both have winged MCs. So either way Im getting something out of it.

You must follow all rules of the game at all times.

To pick and choose ones to follow is cheating.

Beasts are always beasts.
Winged DP are always MC.

Both must follow restrictions based on that - IN ADDITION TO ANYTHING ELSE.

kirsanth wrote:You must follow all rules of the game at all times.

To pick and choose ones to follow is cheating.

Beasts are always beasts.
Winged DP are always MC.

Both must follow restrictions based on that - IN ADDITION TO ANYTHING ELSE.

Are you even reading the posts are can you not see over your annoying capitalized words?

I said if youre going to play it like that for beasts, then you must apply it to every other rule where a unit is acting like another one. In my example, A daemon prince is a MC. Dangerous terrain checks for landing in cover are only for jump infantry. Therefore my prince would not have to take a dangerous terrain test, as MCs are not listed under dangerous terrain jumps.

doubled wrote:Beasts cannot go up floors, if a man barks like a dog, he does not become a dog, if a man walks like a duck, he is not a duck, and for your argument to work it would state something such as, "Move like infantry and changes the beast unit type to infantry unit type" At no point does a model magically change from one type to another. It states only certain unit types may climb up walls. The beast type is not mentioned, and although you may quote move as infantry all you like, it nowhere says "removes beast type and becomes basic infantry."

lol, that's funny!
Good Analogy.
But the fact remains.
Infantry MOVE through ruins
Beasts MOVE like infantry.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

lol, that's funny!
Good Analogy.
But the fact remains.
Infantry MOVE through ruins
Beasts MOVE like infantry.

Im having a really hard time understanding how people can say differently. It doesnt matter if the unit type is something else. Beasts move like infantry, which possess the ability to move through ruins.

How can this thread still be going? It's perfectly clear in the rulebook on page 83 that not only is it "only infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin", but also that "Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin".

It specifies that if it is not infantry, a jetbike, a MC or walker it CAN'T do it. Whether it moves like them or not doesn't make the slighest bit of difference (moving within ruins has it's own list of rules that override the normal rules for moving).

If these other units could then why state in black and white that they can't?

Moving through Ruins is an addition to the movement rules and not part of the standard rules inherited by beast.

But I'll humour you. Ok answer this, and if you can i'll agree that beast can move in above the ground floor of ruins.

Why would MC be listed and not beast? (MC also move like infantry only difference is they get move through cover)

I'm sure he'll find a way...but it's ok because we know we are right.

I simply love the image of a bunch of Guardsmen running up a flight of stairs only to turn and see a stack of H-Gaunts milling about down the bottom, unable to climb.

Trying to play 40K via RAW is a fool's errand. It only leads to situations like this.

@Tri: Okay, you got me. RAW, you are right. But what about ramps and stuff leading to SLIGHTLY elevated areas? I'm gonna go with H.B.M.C. ...Just to annoy you.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I simply love the image of a bunch of Guardsmen running up a flight of stairs only to turn and see a stack of H-Gaunts milling about down the bottom, unable to climb.

Trying to play 40K via RAW is a fool's errand. It only leads to situations like this.

(edit ...and @Emperors Faithful ) Not true if there was a stair case then they could also use it but they don't gain the bonus rule that lets them move vertically. That said Hormagaunts do have a solution, they just take flesh hooks, now that impassible vertical terrain is just difficult.

Tri wrote:
Why would MC be listed and not beast? (MC also move like infantry only difference is they get move through cover)

Thank you Tri, that pretty much closes up the argument here.

Tri wrote:M
Why would MC be listed and not beast? (MC also move like infantry only difference is they get move through cover)

Im not sure how this is relevant. Monstrous Creatures move like Monstrous Creatures. The difference is MCs can move things in their path, which infantry cant do. Beasts however are just infantry, there is absolute no difference between them.

Again, I dont really care. If you want to argue unit types like this, my winged hive tyrant and winged daemon prince dont have to take dangerous terrain tests when landing in/taking off from cover, so it would only be to my advantage to argue your way.

I just find its mind boggling how people on here cant put two and two together. People read the rules individually or only read part of the rules.

Troll +1 ?

kirsanth wrote:Troll +1 ?

Youre calling me a troll because I disagree? Yet all you do is post in capital letters and post completely offtopic garbage?

Because you disagree? No.
Not at all.

I disagree with just about everything you have said, but I called you a troll for ignoring the actual posts involving rules to say things like "Well if you say that the rules mean that, then I am going to break a different rule instead!"

And yes, that was paraphrasing.

IIRC I wrote half of one sentence in caps, nice you saw that.

Edited to add: I did call for a facepalm ork in caps too. . . Although I will do that again, I daresay.
I actually thought you were trolling for fun/amusment. I find it hard to believe that you find so much of this questionable.

kirsanth wrote:Because you disagree? No.
Not at all.

I disagree with just about everything you have said, but I called you a troll for ignoring the actual posts involving rules to say things like "Well if you say that the rules mean that, then I am going to break a different rule instead!"

And yes, that was paraphrasing.

IIRC I wrote half of one sentence in caps, nice you saw that.

Are you dense? The rules in question are exactly the same. They both list unit types that are associated with something, and both cases have a unit type moving like another. This is yet another thing i find hilarious - people will argue a rule one way, but then with another rule that is exactly the same, theyll argue it the other way! uhh...WTF?

You can only have it one way:

(1) If you argue beasts cant move up stairs, then you have to agree that any (non JI) winged unit in the game doesnt have to take dangerous terrain tests.
OR
(2) If you argue beasts can move up stairs, then you have to agree that any model with wings that moves like JI that turn must take a dangerous terrain test.

Exactly the same? No. They are not exactly the same, first off.

And it is not 1 or 2.

You argue that SOME rule has to be broken, when that is patently false. So no. I do NOT have to agree with either of your points.

They are both wrong. Myself and other have repeatedly posted why. Should I repeat them for you in caps so you read them?

This is the only explanation given:

Tri wrote:

Oh no thats wrong. If you move as a MC you don't take a dangerous terrain test, you do if you move as jump infantry.

"Models with wings move in the same way (Read: Like) as Jump Infantry" - Daemon Prince is MC

Followed by:

"If a moving Jump Infantry model....it must take a dangerous terrain test" - Daemon Prince is a MC model.

Exact same situation as Beasts and "moves like". Go ahead and try to explain it, Ill be amused.

EDIT: By the way, no one repeatedly explained why, and you never explained why and only said "You cant pick and choose". What world do you live in? Seriously.

Night Lords wrote:This is the only explanation given:

Tri wrote:

Oh no thats wrong. If you move as a MC you don't take a dangerous terrain test, you do if you move as jump infantry.

"Models with wings move in the same way (Read: Like) as Jump Infantry" - Daemon Prince is MC

Followed by:

"If a moving Jump Infantry model....it must take a dangerous terrain test" - Daemon Prince is a MC model.

Exact same situation as Beasts and "moves like". Go ahead and try to explain it, Ill be amused.

EDIT: By the way, no one repeatedly explained why, and you never explained why and only said "You cant pick and choose". What world do you live in? Seriously.

Jump infantry may move like infantry there for no need to test fore dangerouse terrain. Being MC and Jump infanty he can ether move as Jump infantry and MC or as infantry and MC (because moving as an infantry and MC are the same as a MC he just moves as MC).

As a hybrid with both rules if he moves into difficult terrain while using the jump infantry rules then he will take a dangerous terrain test. However he gains an extra dice for the MC move through cover.

Tri wrote:

Jump infantry may move like infantry there for no need to test fore dangerouse terrain. Being MC and Jump infanty he can ether move as Jump infantry and MC or as infantry and MC (because moving as an infantry and MC are the same as a MC he just moves as MC).

As a hybrid with both rules if he moves into difficult terrain while using the jump infantry rules then he will take a dangerous terrain test. However he gains an extra dice for the MC move through cover.

No, it says only jump infantry models have to take a test. A daemon prince is a Monstrous Creature. A raptor would be an example of a Jump Infantry type model.

Just like how youre arguing only Infantry, JI, MCs, etc. can move into ruins and anything else cant because theyre not listed. MCs are not listed under dangerous terrain tests. You are arguing one way for one issue and then the other way for the other.

First:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/216106.page#351042
This is part of the "Repeatedly" and may explain why I said this has been done.

Second:
The question is about beasts in the upper levels of ruins and can be answered in one place - the rules for ruins. And thus the buildings and ruins section. It may seem odd, but this is not in the Movement section. The ruins section actually has a place that lists every single unit type that can be placed in the upper levels of ruins legally. Beasts are not in that list. So my assertion is that any unit that includes beasts cannot be placed in the upper levels of ruins legally.

So you can keep looking for rules that let you, if you like but the point is already proven in the only text that matters.

Third:
If you like to assume they are infantry in the movement phase, how will you explain them being there in other phases?

Fourth:
As beasts that move like infantry you can say infantry can move up levels. They are not infantry however many times you disagree - they only move as infantry. No where in any rules quoted does it say they become infantry.
Even if they did say that, it does not matter. It would need to say that the unit also stops being Beasts. As there is not restriction on the number of unit types and in fact there is some precidence for multiples anyway.

I will go on later, this is far from the end of the text that relates. I will try to find some rules that can back your side too, I play Tyranids and this was one of the most absurd this from the rules that came to mind as I read 5e the first time. But I daresay there is nothing to find on that front - it has been tried and found lacking in the face of what the text says.

There is nothing in that link at all that somehow changes the fact that you have to go one way or the other. If you agree with yakface and you get all the associated benefits, then beasts get the benefit of infantry being allowed to move through ruins. If you want to talk model types, the MC type is not listed under the Jump Infantry therefore they dont take tests.

You keep saying you refer to "ruins", but its no different than referring to "jump infantry" and the sentences about landing in DT. Both list the model types associated with the rule. Beasts and MCs are not listed in the seperate lists. So pick the way you want to play units that count as moving as something else, not picking and choosing in some made up game.

Modquisition on:
This thread has been reported, and appropriately so.
Gentlemen, there are only three rules on Dakka. The first is: be polite. Insults, flaming, and besmirching of character of other posters is not acceptable. Argue the merits of the issue and avoid flaming the other posters. If you cannot do that, then do not post in this thread or put other posters on IGNORE.

Consider this a public warning to all posters on this thread.

I hate people that selectively read

Movement ... "begins or ends its move in difficult tertian must take a dangerous terrain test" fine but thats ONLY if they are using the jump pack.

Read the first and second line " Jump infantry can use their jump pack and move up to 12" in the movement phase. This is optional and the can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish" Every thing below that is using the jump pack so if they don't use it they don't take a test.

...And because i can read your mind if they deep strike they would have to test as they are using the pack to deep strike.

I think I understand part of my issue with Night Lords now.

We are both(!!) mixing up winged.

Winged Tyrants _are_ jump infantry.

Winged DP move as.

Tyrants do need to make DT tests, DP would not.

I only play Tyranids - my confusion in his assertion was that he gets something for both armies either way.

Tyranids do not get any bonus.

Other than that, I think we basically agree.

Maybe.

kirsanth wrote:I think I understand part of my issue with Night Lords now.

We are both(!!) mixing up winged.

Winged Tyrants _are_ jump infantry.

Winged DP move as.

Tyrants do need to make DT tests, DP would not.

I only play Tyranids - my confusion in his assertion was that he gets something for both armies either way.

Tyranids do not get any bonus.

Other than that, I think we basically agree.

Maybe.

You are right, the winged Tyrants count as jump infantry in all respects. I was reading wings out of my CSM codex.

However, Tri is still wrong about winged Princes

EDIT #2: Well, hes not wrong, I actually agree with him, but by following that rule, you must allow beasts to move as infantry and through ruins as well.

Night Lords wrote:

kirsanth wrote:I think I understand part of my issue with Night Lords now.

We are both(!!) mixing up winged.

Winged Tyrants _are_ jump infantry.

Winged DP move as.

Tyrants do need to make DT tests, DP would not.

I only play Tyranids - my confusion in his assertion was that he gets something for both armies either way.

Tyranids do not get any bonus.

Other than that, I think we basically agree.

Maybe.

You are right, the winged Tyrants count as jump infantry in all respects. I was reading wings out of my CSM codex.

However, Tri is still wrong about winged Princes

EDIT #2: Well, hes not wrong, I actually agree with him, but by following that rule, you must allow beasts to move as infantry and through ruins as well.

In a friendly game i may do just that. But the rules for ruins are the only reason any models can move vertically beast aren't listed as one of those that can move vertically; so unless there's a disabled ramp for them they will be stuck at ground level.

@Nightlords. I see where you are coming from, but there is a big difference between 'moves as' and 'counts as'. DP's move like, but are not jump infantry, therefore jump infantry rules do not apply to them for the purposes of difficult terrain etc. Winged tyrants ARE jump infantry so they apply the rules for moving through difficult terrain etc.

The reason you cannot allow beasts to move on the upper levels of a ruin is because

"Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin". Page 83.

It's stated in black and white, if it's not in the list (infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers) they can't move higher than the ground level.

Hopefully this has cleared up any confusion, although since I have only posted 3 times in this thread, I don't think I can take any credit. Tri has done all the hard work.

From the Codex Chaos Space Marines FAQ:

Q. Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A. No, it simply allows a model to move like jump infantry...

The same applies here. The model simply moves like infantry. It does not become infantry and therefore it may not enter the upper level of ruins.

Ghaz wrote:From the Codex Chaos Space Marines FAQ:

Q. Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A. No, it simply allows a model to move like jump infantry...

The same applies here. The model simply moves like infantry. It does not become infantry and therefore it may not enter the upper level of ruins.

Ok...who are you talking to and/or why did you bring that up? (haha)

It shows that anyone who's claiming that Beasts & Cavalry become infantry just because they move like infantry would have to explain why a model with Wings doesn't become jump infantry even though they move like jump infantry.

And it's not how the model moves that determines if they can enter the upper level of ruins. It's their unit type. Beasts & Cavalry may move like infantry, but they're still Beasts & Cavalry. They can not enter the upper levels of ruins because of their unit classification, not how they move.

Ghaz wrote:And it's not how the model moves that determines if they can enter the upper level of ruins. It's their unit type. Beasts & Cavalry may move like infantry, but they're still Beasts & Cavalry. They can not enter the upper levels of ruins because of their unit classification, not how they move.

QFT.

To move like something is to look up that unit type's section in the BRB, read the paragraph(s) under 'movement' and follow those in addition to the normal movement rules everyone is subject to, and nothing else.

A completely different section says you can do X, as long as you're A, B or C. If you're not A, B or C, it doesn't matter how much like A you move, you still aren't A. Now, if the ruins section said 'anything that moves like A, B or C - it would be fine, and that's more than likely the way I'd play it - but this is YMDC, and reality has no place here damnit.

EDIT: Clarity