I don't see this anywhere but, privateer press has opened their field test site for Warmachine MK 2 today.

Head here to sign up and download the new beta rule set.

http://fieldtest.privateerpress.com/

Enjoy!!

OH oh! Can Rackham borrow their rules writer? There is one, one PARTICULAR rule, that I just love SO much:

Page 4:
1.) If a rule specifically states an interaction with another rule, follow it.

2.) Rules that says something "cannot" occur override rules that say something "must" or "can" occur.

fething AWESOME! Sorry. There are so many of these in C:AoR and the "conflicting rules" rule in C:AoR is so poorly worded (because they hadn't gotten Aaron to do their translating yet. ). I'd love to see something more like this in the Age of Rag'narok rulebook.

Loving the writing so far though. VERY clear which is so... refreshing.

I have quickly skimmed through it and it (the rules) seems really clear and concise.

I also had a chance to skim through a few faction cards, namely Khador (which I play) and Menoth (which I'd like to start) and there are some interesting things.

Warcasters do get a few extra points to spend on Jacks, which is nice. The point system is completely different. For example in MK 1 Doomreavers were 100pts, now they are 6 pts, the system has been cut 10% across the board and some units got cheaper. I'll be printing the rules off later and giving it a whole and total read through.

So far so good, now if only other companies would do similar things with their rule sets, the hobby world would be a better place.

Indeed. Looks pretty interesting, and the army building seems like the kind of shift we saw from 2nd edition 40K to Force Organization Charts. Liking it so far, but only time will tell what it will do.

So far it seems like it should not "force" any changes to the armies that exist.

Didn't look at too many of the cards as I only have a few figures and most are from Prime and Escalation. I'll check them out in a bit.

The LOS rules are a tournament player's wet dream. Finally the cone defined in exquisite detail. I also like that they are really codifying their abilities and providing short-form icons (which will probably be more legible in color).

Overall it looks like a good way to go for PP. Not a huge change in how to play, but mostly clarifying and streamlining to get rid of the chaff that had accumulated.

Digging through now. Rewriting the rulebook and every model in the entire game is a pretty momentous undertaking. It's going to take a fair bit of play-testing to really get a feel for the new version.

Everything plays the same, but the balance is going to be really hard to declare without seeing this stuff on the table.

OT: Loved my Captcha words for registering to get my copy: Nixon's climax.

Now to actually go over them...

lmao! That's awesome.

Also, just noticed a LOT of the Cygnar units got Jack Marhsall.

And the stat cards give two values, one for a minimum sized unit, one for a maximum. can you have between sized units anymore?

is there any place to get this that -doesn't- require you to join their fracking forums in order to join the betatest site in order to download the rules?

Shotgun wrote:is there any place to get this that -doesn't- require you to join their fracking forums in order to join the betatest site in order to download the rules?

The entire point of the beta release is so that people will talk about it directly with Privateer and offer feedback through the appropriate channels. How are you going to do that if you don't register?

If you just want to peruse the rules as a preview of what's to come, worry not. I'm sure there will be a torrent of it shortly.

blue loki wrote:

Shotgun wrote:is there any place to get this that -doesn't- require you to join their fracking forums in order to join the betatest site in order to download the rules?

The entire point of the beta release is so that people will talk about it directly with Privateer and offer feedback through the appropriate channels. How are you going to do that if you don't register?

If you just want to peruse the rules as a preview of what's to come, worry not. I'm sure there will be a torrent of it shortly.

Since moving to this area, in the last two years I have played exactly 2 days of any flavor of PP. One, I drove a hour to a tourney. The other was with my cousin's son on my kitchen table. I don't want to betatest. I have no options to betatest. I want to see if it is even worth keeping my armies in the hopes that the game might return to the area.

From a cursory review, it's not that different. I think you'll field 'more'. If you take your old 500 point list, it's not a 50 pt list (one of the changes, all the points are roughly 1/10 what they were) - it's more like a 35 point list. So, you get/have to field more. The game still seems to be a lot of 'building combos', warcasters are still really powerful, and Longgunners still stink at melee. Warjacks are cheapers (relatively) and have stat boosts and some pretty juicy special abilities. There's obviously exceptions (baneknights come to mind), but overall I'd say it's not hugely different.

If you liked the playstyle before, you probably still will. If you didn't, you might now, but I doubt it.

I have no idea if this will see a second rising with the game or not. I guess that I'm more excited to play it than I have been in years, but I don't know how much of that is just because it's 'new' vs. 'good changes'.

Give it a week, Shotgun.

So far I like the changes in there. They toned down several uber abilities like temporal barrior no longer halves speed, but is only 3 focus to cast, which makes it usefule, not broken, and still leaves you a few focus to play with. I'm a little sad to see Full throttle lose the boosted attack rolls, but it was a little OTT for a three focus spell.

A few basic rules fun: LOS is magic cylinder lite, Fast Cav only move 5" on their after action move, You can spend a focus to stand up or remove stationary status! woohoo! If a jacks arm system is "disabled" you only roll one dice for attack rolls and cant make chain or power attacks with that arm. Much better IMO.

My quick read through it looks like things will be quite fun, the points are a little more in line with their effectiveness and a lot of the interupts have been taken out or redefined. Bane knights now do their new equivilent of shadow shift once during their own maintanence phase, but all remaining knights get to move. Still helpful, but not as devestating as it used to be.

Meph

What are the changes to Jacks? I've attempted to download but forgotten my password....and it has yet to send anything to my email account. Part of the reason I quit playing Machine was that the main draw to the game for me (jacks) got their rear whipped by my least favorite thing of the game (hordes of infantry).

Already noticed a mistake: Merc Cards, page 17.

Top Right: Master Holt and the Ugly Ampersand, Subhead Privateer Character

Has Aiyana's Stats, several weapons without Stats, 2 Unit sizes without costs and the Rules card for Croe's Cutthroats underneath. There is no listing for Croe's Cutthroats anywhere else.

Is the site overloaded or something? I registered a few hours ago and have yet to get my confirmation e-mail.

warpcrafter wrote:Is the site overloaded or something? I registered a few hours ago and have yet to get my confirmation e-mail.

Did you check your Spam/Junk mail filters and folders? I got mine right away.

Scottywan82 wrote:
Also, just noticed a LOT of the Cygnar units got Jack Marhsall.

This does not surprise me as Cygnar = PP hard on. They can not get enough of that faction, the fluff for and rules make them a crazy army to play. I love the jack designs, but some of the characters just make me barf! I feel like all the other factions have some sort of 'thing' that's cool or weird about them, but cygnar just has a real "we're good at everything with out any drawbacks' vibe.

In saying that, I do not hate PP for this, in fact they've done a great job playing off of it, as they have Magnus and his force which pretty much is just an anti cygnar army. And I feel like all the other armies get just as much love (I'm a khador player hence the 'squash the southlander' attitude ).

My friends and I are a bit skeptical about what these new rules will entail, but I'd love to try them out, and help PP get some really tight rules.

BTW I know it's supposed to be determined by the 'players' scoring up to see who will get the first army book, but I've got $5 on cygnar no matter what the result.

Platuan4th wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:Is the site overloaded or something? I registered a few hours ago and have yet to get my confirmation e-mail.

Did you check your Spam/Junk mail filters and folders? I got mine right away.

I just checked it. Still nothing.

AgeOfEgos wrote:What are the changes to Jacks? I've attempted to download but forgotten my password....and it has yet to send anything to my email account. Part of the reason I quit playing Machine was that the main draw to the game for me (jacks) got their rear whipped by my least favorite thing of the game (hordes of infantry).

jacks got a bit better.
they got a general boost to mat and rat and you now have to destroy all of the damage boxes to kill a jack.

@warpcrafter - got my email right away too...

usernamesareannoying wrote:jacks got a bit better.
they got a general boost to mat and rat and you now have to destroy all of the damage boxes to kill a jack.

Other bonuses for jacks:
Disabled weapon systems no longer prevent you from using that weapon, rather you lose a die like Warbeasts.
Shake Effects: Warjacks and Warcasters can spend a focus to stand up or remove stationary during the Control Phase.
And don't forget the free Warjack points that come with your free Warcasters. In general, you can take a Warcaster and 1-2 non-unique Warjacks before you even start spending points from your standard allotment.

You can still move if your movement is disabled. That's nice.

blue loki wrote:And don't forget the free Warjack points that come with your free Warcasters. In general, you can take a Warcaster and 1-2 non-unique Warjacks before you even start spending points from your standard allotment.

[scooby]whaaa? i musta missed that one raggy...[/scooby]

usernamesareannoying wrote:[scooby]whaaa? i musta missed that one raggy...[/scooby]

Yep, each Warcaster has a Warjack points box next to their Force Allowance box that gives them bonus points able to be used only on warjacks for their battlegroup.

that's cool but ill be damned if it wasn't hard to figure that out. the only thing that really spelled it out was that sample cygnar army list.

i'm liking what i see so far.
And i've gotten a few good laughs at the pp forums over all the people crying over darius getting nerf batted something fierce apparenlty.

edit-oh, and my email arrived after only a few minutes

Well i'm having a quick look through the cards
Cryx:
Flying no longer ignores free strikes.
Terminus can no longer throw or heal, but ravager now gives thresher, and Daemonic is gone.
Mageblight only works on the living.
Seethers and Death Jack no longer have to check to go crazy. Necrovent is gone.

Khador:
Epic butcher lost rage drivers.
Behemoth now has 2 cortexes.

My favs:

Love the "Shake it off" rule, that will be HUGE.

As a long time owner of the trencher chain gun team that never gets used...

All hail mark II: Chain gunners get overwatch...ftw!!!

I've tried to compile most of the changes in an article. It's open to editing for Dakka users. I hope
the rules I've established on the top aren't offputting, I just want a little consistency.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Warmachine_Mark_II_Field_Test_Changes

So I've heard some pretty good things about this game... and I was tempted to get into it at some point. Would it be wise to wait until this edition of the rules is officially released to take a gander at it?

I'd (if possible) like to get someones personal experience on how they would compare this to 40k. Rules, models, etc...

anticitizen013 wrote:So I've heard some pretty good things about this game... and I was tempted to get into it at some point. Would it be wise to wait until this edition of the rules is officially released to take a gander at it?

I'd (if possible) like to get someones personal experience on how they would compare this to 40k. Rules, models, etc...

Hmm, if only there were a Podcast someplace that had covered this very topic....

(Shameless plug coming)

Wait there is: The D6 Generation

Episode 1b: GW vs Privateer as companies... http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=344664

Episode 5: Warmachine Overview (we compare it to 40k quite a bit)
Part 1: http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_category=D6G%20Podcast
Part 2: http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=344679

Lucky Ep 13: Hordes... http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=367136

Enjoy!!!

Less models with more abilities per model. All minis are metal and you either dig the steampunk aesthetic or don't. Rules are clean, like very very meticulous and spelled out for you. If there is something that is ambiguous, they have rules-people on their forums that have the ear of the designers and are allowed to make rulings with authority.

It's a game about going over the top and pounding your opponent into dust though, so it tends to bruise egos. I find that I typically have to warn 40k players about that part.

The open beta on the rules is just a good a time to start as any. You can't dive head first into a full army (without some ungodly nerd abilities for memorizing cards and rules), so you'll be playing low point battlebox games for awhile anyways - while working up to a larger force that you'll know if it will work in MkII or not, because we have access to what MkII will be.

RussWakelin wrote:

anticitizen013 wrote:So I've heard some pretty good things about this game... and I was tempted to get into it at some point. Would it be wise to wait until this edition of the rules is officially released to take a gander at it?

I'd (if possible) like to get someones personal experience on how they would compare this to 40k. Rules, models, etc...

Hmm, if only there were a Podcast someplace that had covered this very topic....

(Shameless plug coming)

Wait there is: The D6 Generation

Episode 1b: GW vs Privateer as companies... http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=344664

Episode 5: Warmachine Overview (we compare it to 40k quite a bit)
Part 1: http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_category=D6G%20Podcast
Part 2: http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=344679

Lucky Ep 13: Hordes... http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=367136

Enjoy!!!

I'm not a Warmachine/Hordes player, but I thought your review of Hordes was pretty interesting.

So here's something I noticed that is more an aesthetic/topographical issue than rules per se (and I'll post this over there as well): I hate symbols representing special rules. I hated that in Heroclix and was always going back and forsee myself always going back and looking up what the iron cross, two swords, dying baby or whatever other icon they provide. Just put the special rules in bold and list the page numbers on the card if you want to save space. Really.

Sweet, thanks for the info guys. I'll be checking out those links in but a moment.

I was checking out the models and I do rather like them, so that's obviously a bonus. Having very clear rules is also quite advantageous.

syr8766 wrote:So here's something I noticed that is more an aesthetic/topographical issue than rules per se (and I'll post this over there as well): I hate symbols representing special rules. I hated that in Heroclix and was always going back and forsee myself always going back and looking up what the iron cross, two swords, dying baby or whatever other icon they provide. Just put the special rules in bold and list the page numbers on the card if you want to save space. Really.

The ironic thing is that they took out so many special rules entirely that there would be no space problems even with the old style. As it stands, I foresee several models with completely blank card backs.

skullking wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:
Also, just noticed a LOT of the Cygnar units got Jack Marhsall.

This does not surprise me as Cygnar = PP hard on. They can not get enough of that faction, the fluff for and rules make them a crazy army to play. I love the jack designs, but some of the characters just make me barf! I feel like all the other factions have some sort of 'thing' that's cool or weird about them, but cygnar just has a real "we're good at everything with out any drawbacks' vibe.

Um, what? In rules or fluff? As I long time Cygnar player, I shelved them for the Churchies as soon as I started a Protectorate army. Cygnar has LOTS of drawbacks on the tabletop. They're not "good at everything with out any drawbacks" at all. They're "we're okay at everything, but don't really excell in anything." They have no Weapon Master units, their elite infantry, Stormblades, rarely make it into melee. Gun Mages were pretty much useless before the UA came out, Defenders were a but sub par on the Str of their guns, Chargers were focus hogs that were rarely worth it, Sentinels (and Trencher Chain Guns) were pretty much useless and Hammersmiths were mediocre at best. Sure, there were stand out units in there, and they had some abilities *cough*Temporal Barrier*cogh* that were very good, but all factions do. To my knowledge, Cygnar never won any of the national tourneys, those were pretty much dominated by Khador or the Protectorate. And Cygnar's "thing" is technology and lightning.

Fluff wise, yes, they are over represented, but that's because they are the center of the story. The "Jewel of the Iron Kingdoms" is where everything is happening. The Thornwood is in it's borders, Khador wants more fertile southern land, Cryx wants bodies and is right off the coast of Cygnar and the Protectorate (which is really a part of Cygnar) wants to get rid of Morrowian influence in the Kingdom and make it a Menite nation. The coup is central to the story, with the old king now leading the Skorne Empire and lots of cloak and dagger stuff about that keeps popping up in WM and Hordes.

At any rate, I'm enjoying the new rules so far, maybe I'll even break out my Cygnar stuff again. Though my dice for Cygnar and Menoth may roll horrible if I do that.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

syr8766 wrote:So here's something I noticed that is more an aesthetic/topographical issue than rules per se (and I'll post this over there as well): I hate symbols representing special rules. I hated that in Heroclix and was always going back and forsee myself always going back and looking up what the iron cross, two swords, dying baby or whatever other icon they provide. Just put the special rules in bold and list the page numbers on the card if you want to save space. Really.

The ironic thing is that they took out so many special rules entirely that there would be no space problems even with the old style. As it stands, I foresee several models with completely blank card backs.

Thank God.

I've been wanting elegantly written units since Hordes ramped up.

so, now that they've bleached away so many rules that units have, and replaced the others with some rather uninteresting symbols, i wonder what they'll do with all that card space.

I'm thinking 72 font maybe, you know, so no one can complain about tiny text

Scottywan82 wrote:2.) Rules that says something "cannot" occur override rules that say something "must" or "can" occur.

They must have hired someone who plays Magic the Gathering

hm, i think the doom and gloom posts have overloaded their forums.

I'm hardly surprised. I'm sure the end is nigh over on the PP forums. I'm pretty much digging these rules though.

after having a few hours to absorb the change i can say.
1-i pretty much like the core rules
2- i've no idea why they felt the need to shaft the swordknights, i mean its not like they were an overpowered game breaking unit.
3- the new lower number point system sorta makes me feel like they question my ability to perform mathmatics
4- cryx armies are gonna be flooding ebay
5-while the jacks are better, the limitations of focus are still going to mean a lot of what led to infantrymachine

I have to say, if Cryx is going on sale, now's the time to buy.

Because these AREN'T the final rules. So I think some of the boys and the one girl on the PP forums need to take a deep breath - hold - and let it all out.

I'm also curious why they didn't bump up the focus amounts, but I wonder if we will see more of the epic casters along with a few more warjacks in the 25,35,50 point range. That would give the illusion at least that jacks were a larger portion of your force.

Also, I think the reason they lowered the points values to this bizarre-seeming set of numbers is to obfuscate their method of determining points cost. I hope it doesn't backfire on them and leave everyone with a smaller margin between terrible and mandatory.

Must be nice to have a look at the new rules. I signed up on the test site Monday and did NOT receive the password response. I am still waiting for the F ing password to get a look at the test rules.

As of Tuesday Morning still no password.

I think PP has missed an opportunity to allow players to get the test rules from a normal download with out all the hassel of a special sign up page.

Still waiting for the password response.

Warrior 50.

If you are using MSN or Yahoo, I know both of those sites have issues getting notifications from PP's automated email server. Go gmail!

Scottywan82 wrote:I have to say, if Cryx is going on sale, now's the time to buy.

Because these AREN'T the final rules. So I think some of the boys and the one girl on the PP forums need to take a deep breath - hold - and let it all out.

These will be very close to the final rules, however. After all, the only things they're expecting community feedback on are specific wording and typographical issues, not the rules themselves. This isn't a playtest so much as an additional round of copyediting.

syr8766 wrote:So here's something I noticed that is more an aesthetic/topographical issue than rules per se (and I'll post this over there as well): I hate symbols representing special rules. I hated that in Heroclix and was always going back and forsee myself always going back and looking up what the iron cross, two swords, dying baby or whatever other icon they provide. Just put the special rules in bold and list the page numbers on the card if you want to save space. Really.

I've mentioned this myself. It's one of the major reasons why Confrontation failed. It really raises the barrier of getting into the game. Having to do the additional task of memorizing icons on top of learning the system makes it that much harder for new players to get into it (and experienced players will know the unit's special rules anyway).

I COMPLETELY disagree. But then, I love C:AoR so I guess that's to be expected.

I think of it more in the sense of M:tG - as someone already mentioned above. It's not really much of a barrier, though I would say they need to release a cheatsheet/reference sheet regardless.

Very much like the picto-shorthand.

I kept confusing the Jack Marshal symbol (a six-pointed star) with the Commander symbol (a five-pointed US Army star). I would much prefer they just give a list of the USRs on the card, without descriptions, and I don't care if they leave or remove the symbols under the stats.

I don't think Darius got nerfed. I always liked his play style, and could win more than I lost with him. Now, he's different. Full Throttle is still powerful, and with the boost to Jacks, it helps him anyway. I think you just play him with a more balanced force (which I usually did anyway).

I just realized that Swordknights lost their second attack, which helps explain their massive points drop.

I always saw Cygnar as the 'good at everything, excellent at nothing' faction.

Cygnar really only got stupid good (to rival the other factions) with Legends anyway.

As for the rules update, I'm loving most of what I see. Still some things got their balls cut off (Assassins) and other things got nothing to make them better (Shocktroopers).

And some casters hardly got the "nerfage" I thought they would. eVlad's feat took a hit, which is good. Maybe I'll actually use the model now.

The consensus seems to be that Menoth got better, Khador slightly less so, Cryx was nerfed to death and Cygnar is somewhere in between. And that Mercs suck.

Oddly, the Skarre Bomb is still in there. A lot of things I was certain was going to be nerfed to hell are still in there.

I love the idea of symbols, here's my quick take:

It will not take many games to learn them.

The vast majority have REALLY well thought out symbols that are easy to remember. The Jack Marshall is an old west "Marshall" star. CRA is two guns, CMA is two swords, Lightning with a not symbol is immune to lightning. Incorporeal is a pack man ghost. Arc node is an antenna. Reach is a halberd. In fact I think I've already memorized most of 'em.

But here's what I REALLY like, at a glance, from across the table you can now identify key abilities on your opponent’s cards, assuming they are laid out on the table behind his troops.

Example 1: You've got an incorporeal guy and you're trying to avoid magic weapons. A quick glance at your opponent’s cards will tell you which models have the sword with stars symbol and which don't.

Example 2: You're about to cast chain lightning. A quick glance across the table will tell you which units have the not lightning symbol and which don't.

I think it will really speed up play, centralizes many common rules, and allows you to easily identify abilities from a distance. In a word… brilliant. I hope the icons are big and bold on the final cards.

Scottywan82 wrote:

I'm also curious why they didn't bump up the focus amounts, but I wonder if we will see more of the epic casters along with a few more warjacks in the 25,35,50 point range. That would give the illusion at least that jacks were a larger portion of your force.

Well, the easiest reason would be because focus buys attacks. Once you bump everyone's
focus points up, warcasters become psycho.

They did bump Amon up a little, though. The guy sure needed a break.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Oddly, the Skarre Bomb is still in there. A lot of things I was certain was going to be nerfed to hell are still in there.

Sacrificial Strikes works off the model's base ARM now. So no feat turn boosting.

greenskin lynn wrote:
5-while the jacks are better, the limitations of focus are still going to mean a lot of what led to infantrymachine

Why? If you are playing Kitchentablemachine, maybe. I think the jury is still out though because there is no information on what tourney play will be focused on. If it is fill the caster, then maybe it will still be infantrymachine. If it is something else. *shrug* I mean what if it turns into ties are determined by the points costs that you give up? Your 10 point infantry unit now costs the same as a 6 pt heavy and 4 point light. What if infantry gives up half its points if it is at half strength or less, but you need to destroy a jack to get any of its points?

Things like this will go a long way to determining if infantry usage will be waning.

greenskin lynn wrote:after having a few hours to absorb the change i can say.
5-while the jacks are better, the limitations of focus are still going to mean a lot of what led to infantrymachine

At least jacks aren't completely neutered nor disabled anymore.

I'm just sad they didn't give the Vanquisher reach.

malfred wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Oddly, the Skarre Bomb is still in there. A lot of things I was certain was going to be nerfed to hell are still in there.

Sacrificial Strikes works off the model's base ARM now. So no feat turn boosting.

It also now requires LOS.
Its pretty funny that Skarre's Feat took a double whack from the nerf bat yet no one is complaining about it. Just goes to show you how good she still is.

My only real gripe so far is the loss of eSkarre's jack bond. Cryx had one jack bond, and MKII is supposed to be all-about-the-jacks, yet they take it away. Makes no sense to me. Perhaps it will find its way back when they add the common bonds back in, but I'm not holding my breath.

All in all I like what I see.

Skarre's feat turn is still, and probably always has been, better spent with Skarre beating the ever living snot out of something rather than using her full combat action to snipe something early. +5 str and +5 armor for everyone, come on!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Warmachine_Mark_II_Field_Test_Changes

Update: Thanks for all the work, guys. Looks like Cryx and Khador, and Mercs need doing. I'll
start on the other Protectorate stuff tonight if no one goes for it.

One of the big changes that will probably spark endless rant and discussion is the new way in which units move combined with their formation rules.

The core of it is this:
Formation is based on the unit commander's CMD stat. If you are within the CMD stat in inches, you are in formation. The commander is always in formation.

combined with this:
When advancing (any type of movement during activation), if a trooper is out of formation it must advance toward the commander.

At it's heart this is something truly new to Warmachine. A model can never leave formation intentionally, even during movement.

And the key complaint so far has been in regards to charges. Basically, since a grunt has to advance toward the commander while out of formation, this effectively means that the commander must lead from the front and be the first model to execute his charge. Otherwise, a grunt will automatically fail his charge if attempts to charge and reaches the edge of the commander's CMD range.

From my point of view, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is a very different way of using units from what currently exists. Officer attachments are now serving on the front lines and their survivability just dropped. Its definitely a change that will take some getting used to.

wow, i got quoted.
After some sleep, and looking over things again, and giving it some more though, the only thing that bums me out is that my swordknights are now even more of a cheap speedbump.
Other then that, i can handle symbols, i like the changes to the core rules, and maybe i can get a cheap cryx army on ebay to paint.

I welcome the rules but, can anyone confirm whether comprehensive (permenant) updates for Mk1 will be available for download.

It is one thing for Gw to change the rules and force me to rebuy a codex or two, for PP a rule change would mean rebuying every book. As PP books are also much more expensive I am not really up for that.

I bought them once and if the whole damn lot is obsolete I will be very tempted to look for electronic versions.

blue loki wrote:One of the big changes that will probably spark endless rant and discussion is the new way in which units move combined with their formation rules.

The core of it is this:
Formation is based on the unit commander's CMD stat. If you are within the CMD stat in inches, you are in formation. The commander is always in formation.

combined with this:
When advancing (any type of movement during activation), if a trooper is out of formation it must advance toward the commander.

At it's heart this is something truly new to Warmachine. A model can never leave formation intentionally, even during movement.

And the key complaint so far has been in regards to charges. Basically, since a grunt has to advance toward the commander while out of formation, this effectively means that the commander must lead from the front and be the first model to execute his charge. Otherwise, a grunt will automatically fail his charge if attempts to charge and reaches the edge of the commander's CMD range.

From my point of view, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is a very different way of using units from what currently exists. Officer attachments are now serving on the front lines and their survivability just dropped. Its definitely a change that will take some getting used to.

But surely only a complete knobend of an opponent would pull that one on you half way through a move? Word of the rule is one thing, but the spirit here is pretty damned clear.

After all, all Wargames are representative. Your spods most certainly do not charge in one at a time in WM, 40k, or any other Skirmish. They call charge together. You just struggle to move them all accurately.

If someone pulled that on me in any wargame, they'd soon find their troops out of formation/coherency by virture of some being rammed up his chuff.

Oooh, thats twice I've used that phrase tonight.....

It's fair to hold yourself and your opponent to correct unit formation. If someone wants to charge
but they've trapped their Unit Commander behind a wall, there are only so many configurations
they can end up with. Letting them "make room" by charging with a front liner so that the Unit
Commander can move the Command Bubble up would kind of be cheating.

I think I know where you are coming from.

Certainly in competitive play I can see careful positioning before the charge being right and proper.

But what I was getting at might have been me getting the wrong end of the stick from blue loki's post (my fault not his!).

You see, I thought he was meaning TFG could, feasibly, and possibly within the scope of the rules, force you to always charge in with your unit leader. Now, your example (Malfred that is should someone post whilst I'm typing) is of course a fair point. But it could be used to prevent a charge when my infantry are bunched up, with the commander in the middle, to prevent an otherwise perfectly reasonable charge just through sheer dickery.

Now, it's been some time since I played WM (4 years at least. Not my bag but thats not the point of this!) and I cannot for the life of me say whether there is any advantage to protecting your unit leader in the way I mentioned above (get the grunts to surround him) so my example may not be especially common, but even so.

People will want to protect their Officer models, since they cannot be replaced. However, Unit
Commanders can be field promoted amongst the grunts (a new term for troopers who are not
Unit Commanders).

Thing you might be missing is that models can't cross other models' bases for voluntarily movement
without a special rule of some kind. So it's not like a blocked in leader isn't being moved first because
the player would prefer not to move it first, it's not being moved first because it physically can't
be moved first. It's an abstraction that's used to keep things clear, kind of like the 1" rule in
40k and FB.

Okay doke. So unit commanders are like Standards and Musicians in Fantasy, in that should they be sniped, someone else picks up the Banner or Instrument and fills in. Cool. With that now.

Now, your second one (and apologies for semi-derailing the thread. It is sort of about the topic. Well. Ish.).

So the base rule means that should, for whatever reason, I form my unit into a concentric ring formation, with the unit leader in the middle, I would have to open a path up by moving the outer models first before he can move. That I get.

But my concern about the wording of the rule as mentioned by Blue Loki (I'm assuming it's accurate. Not one to download the rules as I don't like Steampunk) is that using the above formation (or a broadly similar situation where it is necessary, due to where models are, irrespective of cover*) to move the rank and file into combat first, that a particular litigious opponent could force a failed charge should one of those models move out of the command range.

I think it's clear that the rule intends that you cannot cause the unit to be out of coherency via movement deliberately, but that this does not extend to when you are actually moving the models. I may be wrong, others might have a different opinion, but I feel that in a rules set seemingly respected for it's tightness, that it really needs to be stated clearly, even if it's just in brackets to reinforce it one way or the other.

Sorry about the semi-derailing!

We're trying to figure that out now. They've already said in the Field Test forum that they
realize that this part of the rules need clarity given the amount of time spent trying
to work it out.

Ah fair enough then!

Definitely one to be tightened up, as read anally it can cost someone the game, but read loosely, it requires less careful positioning, which as a primarily Fantasy player, I can't say which would annoy me more.

Vanquisher not having reach and losing the range isn't great. But the boost to POW is nice...

Oh, and I noticed the sword knights taking the nerf-bat to the face. Bah; they had been a favorite unit of mine, just for flavor. Now...

yea, in between a thankfully lessoning amount of doom on the cygnar section of the pp forum, people are trying to figure out why the sword knights got nerfed in the face like that.

i hear the cryx board's become a cult of doom, but i'm afraid to check it

Asmodai wrote:

syr8766 wrote:So here's something I noticed that is more an aesthetic/topographical issue than rules per se (and I'll post this over there as well): I hate symbols representing special rules. I hated that in Heroclix and was always going back and forsee myself always going back and looking up what the iron cross, two swords, dying baby or whatever other icon they provide. Just put the special rules in bold and list the page numbers on the card if you want to save space. Really.

I've mentioned this myself. It's one of the major reasons why Confrontation failed. It really raises the barrier of getting into the game. Having to do the additional task of memorizing icons on top of learning the system makes it that much harder for new players to get into it (and experienced players will know the unit's special rules anyway).

Once a player memorizes those symbols, one can simply look at an opponent's cards and see what abilities most units have. What was really killing WM/H, IMHO, was a new player coming into the game and being blind sided by five WM and 3 Hordes books worth of special rules for eight (10 with mercs and minions) different armies. Especially when there were several different phrases for the same rules. I'll take the symbols any day of the week honestly.

Though I do think that some units got too simplified. And Cryx players are always doom and gloom, so it's really no surprise that they are even more doom and gloom now.

Orlanth wrote:for PP a rule change would mean rebuying every book.

Sorry, but that's genuinely NOT true. Warmachine Mk. II will feature Prime Mk. II(with Prime units) followed by 5 Faction Specific Forces of Warmachine Books(like the Pirates book) and Mk. II System "Decks", so unless you play every army, you only need 2 books and a Deck minimum(really only Prime Mk. II and a Deck as no rules aren't included on the cards).

They are not reproducing Escalation, Apotheosis, Superiority, and Legends as Mk. II books.

Oddly, I don't feel that Cryx was nerfed too badly. Then again, I haven't given the units a complete run through yet. I always played jack heavy armies with my Cryx. I actually took Slayers and Seethers. And all the jacks got better. So people must be complaining that units got nerfed. Which is good, because the game needs to focus on Jacks more, imo.

Some thoughts on Cryx Jacks from what I read last night:

Slayer: MAT 7 and PS 16 on the claws. That's a huge improvement.

Reaper: I was hoping for RAT 6 on the harpoon. The one point increase really isn't enough to make it worthwhile. I didn't look to see if the range went up, but if it did, I might consider getting one.

Seether: My baby. MAT 8 and a chain attack that let's it do any power attack. No more Ld tests to see if it goes crazy. Still has Soul Drive. I can't wait to field it with Mortenebra.

Deathjack: Didn't really look at it; don't field it as I don't like the model. The fact that it doesn't go crazy anymore makes it super focus efficient.

Nightmare: Didn't really look at the rules, but I did see MAT 8. Still looks to be a good choice.

Leviathan: RAT 5, while sucky on the Reaper, is a big bonus on the Leviathan. I think it got a range increase too. I think the claw went down in strength though.

Harrower: Also went to RAT 5. The new rules for Thresher make it nasty in combat.

Deathripper: Slightly better MAT. Still the workhorse of the army.

Defiler: Increase in range and RAT makes them worth taking now, especially since they're the same point cost as the Nightwretch.

Nightwretch: Slightly improved. Still have a place in the army.

Stalker: The caster killer it was always supposed to be. Ignores the armor boost from focus, and makes models unable to transfer, and heal for a round, as well as losing tough for a round. Expect to see more of these.

Helldiver: Slightly improved.

Cankerworm: Lost a lot of its special rules (Meat Grinder will be missed.) But it got Armor Piercing. 'Nuff said.

I only looked at a few Casters, but I like what I saw:

pGaspy: Kept his feat and sustained attack. Shadow Wings is now teleport, which lost some range, but it's still useful. Scything Touch grants Critical Corrosionaddition to +2 STR, which is nice.

pDenny: Pretty much stayed the same, and kept Crippling Grasp and Venom. Feat stayed the same too.

Coven: Lost a lot of their spells, and Stygian Abyss was completely reworked. (probably a good thing) Shadow Bind isn't a bad effect by any means.

pSkarre: Skarrebomb was nerfed. I might consider buying the model now.

Terminus: His major flaw was fixed; on his feat turn, soul tokens add to his armor. No more dying after popping the feat because he got too close to the other army. I think he's worth running now. And Ravager is an awesome spell.

Mortenebra: Pretty much stayed the same, which considering the bonuses Jacks got, makes her even better. Deryliss can get soul tokens from 5 inches away, doesn't lose them at the end of the turn, and can use them to boost spells. Huge improvement.

I want to be optimistic about this. But it really, really looks like Cryx got nerfed to hell ... and that's my main army.

There's no reason to take Overlords any more. Soul Hunters got nerfed to Light Cav. Darren Wrathe isn't worth taking as far as I can tell. Bile Thralls got helluva expensive for some reason.

The Coven ... what the heck am I supposed to do with them now? No Stealth and Stygian Abyss got nerfed hard. And ... No Stealth. At all. Are you kidding me? They just became the easiest warcasters to kill.

Bloodgorgers lost their cool abilities. Terminus can't heal himself with soul tokens. Mind you, I don't own Terminus, but I think that was a pretty big part of his playstyle.

Rengrave is completely boring now, as well as useless. And pirates didn't get better. Which means they are still bad.

Jackwise a lot of stuff got better. But the helldiver lost it's AoE, and thus it's only purpose IMO. Cankerworm got the crap kicked out of him. And our arc nodes are now really expensive for some reason.


What exactly is the bright side here?

Noisy_Marine wrote:


What exactly is the bright side here?

no idea really, i suppose you could hope that all the cryx players will submit playtest info in such numbers as to get at least some unnerfing done.
yea, i can't really come up with much better then hoping they unchange some things for you

Noisy_Marine wrote:But the helldiver lost it's AoE, and thus it's only purpose IMO.

The Helldiver now has a different purpose than it did before as Burrow works a bit differently now.

First of all, it's dirt cheap and it still has the excellent damage grid it had before.
Second, your opponent will not be able to do anything to it before it attacks unless you let them.
The new wording of Burrow allows you to full advance and burrow afterwards every turn, meaning it will almost never get hit with anything until after you've charged with it, yet all the while it is still able to advance up the field.

First turn it seems slow, moving a short 5" and burrowing, or running 10" and doing nothing but acting as a target. However each turn after it burrows it gets placed 3" + base size + marker size from its previous position and can still use its full movement, including charging.

This means no more waiting for your opponent to move into range. Now the Helldiver takes the fight to the enemy. It used to be an area control jack with a good assassination tool built in. Now it is purely an assassination jack and has the tools to always get into the proper position.

Like Loki said, things roles are changing. While a glance at a model now may seem "like it's not worth taking" once you start building lists and finding out where you need an extra jack for blocking, or that last 4 points to fill your perfect list, etc. you will discover new roles for models that have changed.

My review of the models so far looks like everyone got hit about equally .. Check how many "loses ability" notes in the article Malfred linked on page one apply to both cCgnar and Menoth. Notice how little in cygnar is now fearless(only a few solos like journyman and laddermore). Cryx can do a lot to cause fear ... and now you can make all those elite units turn tail and run(on CMD 8 and 9 admitedly, but every time you kill half the unit they have to check).

Also, I like how they looked at things and said "what is this model really suppoesed to be doing?" I didn't even remebmer the Thead had a chain attack. WHy, cuase he's alwyas shotting stuff up. Now he lost a bunch of abilities, and his range dropped, but its one roll that can be boosted. He's better at what he does, and that's clearing a 12" swath of troops. Same for the bokur. Bokurs weren't being taken as body guards. They were being taken as super killy assault machines. Now they more reflect a bodyguard and when taken will be used more like a bodyguard(rather than an aimed missile of doom).

Anyway, my suggestion is get in a few games before you decide the whole army is nerfed. I knoiw I and my local group plan on getting in several games this weekend to put our new rules through the ringer.

Meph

Mephistoles1 wrote:Notice how little in cygnar is now fearless

That is one of the major changes, in Mk1 you didn't have to worry about fear as most units were made fearless by standards. Now stardard gives you reroll to failed command tests, which is good as cygnar has 9 or 10 commands but you can still botch those rolls.

I'm more interested in the game changes as a whole. I think it's easy to not see the forest for
the trees when dealing with Mark II, but a lot of the complaints on the PP boards
ONLY deal with changes to their faction.

Some of the people complaining haven't even read the regular rule-set yet.

I don't think you necessarily have to play, but you do have to read the rules set and look beyond
the changes made to your faction to make a judgment.

malfred wrote:I'm more interested in the game changes as a whole. I think it's easy to not see the forest for
the trees when dealing with Mark II, but a lot of the complaints on the PP boards
ONLY deal with changes to their faction.

Some of the people complaining haven't even read the regular rule-set yet.

I don't think you necessarily have to play, but you do have to read the rules set and look beyond
the changes made to your faction to make a judgment.

Or the part in the instructions that asks people to not post wishlists, or complaints about changes to their faction? It's really sad and immature. Heck there might be some legitimate complaints, but if I was Jason, I wouldn't want to wade through the huge number of whiny bitches to find it. He's really put a ton of work into this, and he reward is a bunch of complaints. Way to turn up the negative re-enforcement guys!

Same problem GW faces I'm afraid.

Rather than use the new rules to refine old tactics or discover new ones, certain people will simply complain about nerfing and post up unreasonable demands (look at most fan made Codecies, or proposed 'fixes', all of which seem to involve dropping points, upping stats etc)

Still, as long as even a handful of people give them the feedback they actually need, all will be good.

Free Strikes- A model can make a free strike if an enemy model leaves its Melee range and/or Line of Sight. So, a model can no longer avoid a free strike by moving behind an intervening model.

Woah... does this change godhead + Menoth's Gaze?!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Same problem GW faces I'm afraid.

Rather than use the new rules to refine old tactics or discover new ones, certain people will simply complain about nerfing and post up unreasonable demands (look at most fan made Codecies, or proposed 'fixes', all of which seem to involve dropping points, upping stats etc)

Still, as long as even a handful of people give them the feedback they actually need, all will be good.

Agreed. Our group is going to test these rules extensively(being the junkies we are) and provide a collective batch of useful feedback. We've got players from every faction and while friendly, are pretty competitive players so I think we will push the rules to their limits, find any place that isn't clear or seems clunky and report back to PP.

Meph

Just a quick question for those who have played a bit of the new rules...

I've been looking at the models for Warmachine again, and there are some I like. However, the one thing that turned me off the game in the first place was the way it seemed to entirely boil down to the Warcasters Feat being used at the most opportune time.

Not saying this is a bad mechanic by any stretch, but I'm not a fan of trumps in this way.

So with the new rules, will a well timed Feat still pretty much hand you victory, or is there now need to combine it with other select attacks?

FRAK, I just dropped over a grand on my new IG army and a custom Battlefoam case for it, and now you guys are getting me all exited over warmachine again.

FRAK

Mad Doc: Warmachine is still warmachine. MKII is streamlined, less confusing, a little more balanced, but a lot more focused on Jacks(the way it was when it first came out and the way most of us think it should have stayed along).

Our local players are already finding the new uber combos, like Vlads 14" charge + signs n portents for free after he kills what eh charged, etc. That part of warmachine is still there and strong. Feat timing, movement timing, spell timing are all still the meat and bones of Warmachine. As someone who doesn't do very good at setting up super combos that irks me a little also, but overall I like the way it plays again, and it makes for a good balance to 40K in my hobby interests.

While the test is going on the rules and all the cards for the models are free right now so it would be a good time to download the pdf's and see if it catches your interest. Getting started in warmachine is not that expensive unless you plan on buying every model for your faction (then I think it surpasses most 40k armies in cost .

Meph

Yeah, it is really going to take some relearning as many models have fundamentally changed.

Interesting note on troops- apparently a picket line/wall is no longer possible- at least beyond the commanders' range.

Unfortunately, my Cryx seem to have taken a big hit. Deneg kept her abilities, but assassination with her just got alot tougher. The Coven are laughably bad now. Skarre kept her melee'ish enhancements but lost her ranged strike. PAsph seems okay, as does Goreshade (bane knights are not so sexy anymore). But Cryx support is reeling- expensive bile thralls and arc nodes really undercut Cryx's traditional strength in that area.

Menoth seems to have fared okay, and I like the boosts that jacks will give them (Yay crusader!).

Cygnar seems very full of win, as they have gotten big boosts lately and v2 doesn't seem to slow them down much. The nerf of SKnights was odd, though, as they weren't huge to begin with.

Khador seems to still beat face. Vlad seems as good as ever.

Privateer has already started incorporating changes into the new rules. Unit movement and coherency has changed.
Basically you check for models in CMD range of the leader. If out, they must run or full advance toward him, and cannot receive orders or make actions. All models in CMD can make their movement, and actions for whatever order is given.

Check the new update on the test site for the full wording.

I think Coven didn't get hit as bad as people are saying. They can still be nasty, just not OTT nasty like before. Hell, with stalkers you get a 36 inch Control range!

Mephistoles1 wrote:Mad Doc: Warmachine is still warmachine. MKII is streamlined, less confusing, a little more balanced, but a lot more focused on Jacks(the way it was when it first came out and the way most of us think it should have stayed along).

Our local players are already finding the new uber combos, like Vlads 14" charge + signs n portents for free after he kills what eh charged, etc. That part of warmachine is still there and strong. Feat timing, movement timing, spell timing are all still the meat and bones of Warmachine. As someone who doesn't do very good at setting up super combos that irks me a little also, but overall I like the way it plays again, and it makes for a good balance to 40K in my hobby interests.

While the test is going on the rules and all the cards for the models are free right now so it would be a good time to download the pdf's and see if it catches your interest. Getting started in warmachine is not that expensive unless you plan on buying every model for your faction (then I think it surpasses most 40k armies in cost .

Meph

Combo's I don't mind so much, as they take a bit of skill to pull off successfully, and your opponent has a chance to anticipate what you are up to and throw a spanner in the proverbial. However my experience in Warmachine Mk1, was that the Feat was essentially a 1 card trump. What do I mean by this?

I shall try my best to explain. Put it this way. I play Magic the Gathering. I really, really like that game. I seem to have a knack for forming nasty decks which have multiple tricks. And it's the multiple tricks I really enjoy. A well timed attack, backed up by a judicious application of combined abilities and perhaps a couple of instants, is what the game is about. But then, you get the One Card Trumps. Single cards which when played utterly ruin the opponents chances of winning, no matter how cunning and well they have played. I toyed with calling them Recards once, but it didn't stick. These are things like Reiver Demon. When it comes into play, all non-black, non-artifact creatures as destroyed, and cannot rengenerate. As a green player, that essentially means I am utterly boned. No matter how well I played, as soon as thats out, BOOM, I'm screwed.

And that is how I experienced Warmachine. So if the new edition works more on cunning combos than the single trump, I might be convinced to dabble in it again.

There has been some effort to move away from the one card trumps. The effect is still to be seen, but some of the feedback suggests that some success has been had on that field. Also the warcaster and jack can now get rid of some lingering effects on their turn by using a point of focus.

Some of the feats are such that no amount of tweaking will fix em if you play small games though. The Goreshade's summon a unit of grunts feat is still really nasty in 15 point games.

There are fewer one card trumps in mark II. There are still some things that really bone the other player out of a turn(ehaley and emagnus I'm looking at you) Though once you get hit with them you pretty much know that when facing that caster you need to work around that and not keep your entire force in a clumped up area.

Even with the combos(just got hit with emagnus feat, rust bomb, calamity and armor piercing all at once, so my centurion that was sitting at armor 21 drops down to armor 5 for a boosted hit from magnus at 3 dice +8) I still like MK 2 better. Overall it is toned down and between two friendly players there is much fun to be had.

Meph