Warning: Rant incoming!

Here's what I cannot stand. GW is taking a hit with some of my local gamers more or less giving it up for Warmachine/Hordes. Some of the veterans are upset with the codexes and their "alleged" overpoweredness. For some of the locals it seems to be ruining their game/fun. They're shelving their Fantasy and 40k armies and getting all into PP games.

This is fine and I dont have a problem with it. PP games really arent my thing. Personally I think the fluff is really weak compared to GW storylines and GW models still seem superior to me. I've never been much into the "steampunk" style that is so prevalent in Warmachine and I just cannot get excited about the system. Models look great, game might be awesome, I'm just not interested. I'm just to involved with my 40k/Fantasy hobbies and the way the armybooks/codeii are coming out doesnt really bother me so much.

Where I have a problem is when the veterans start badmouthing 40k on our store forums and basically stating that if you're more into 40k than Warmachine/Hordes you need to "wake up" or that you're a "less evolved" gamer....which to me sounds so stupid I have trouble arguing with them about it.

I came back on one poster simply stating that his statement that 40k gamers are "Behind the curve" as being "just a little condescending". He replies with a borderline inflammetory remark and didnt even bother to read my points that I made. Those points were basically "this is a hobby...do what you LIKE to do, if thats PP more power to you. If its 40k, you're just as much a gamer as a PP fan. Basically, they're all great products in their own way's".

LINK----> http://www.atlantis-comics.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6132&hl=

My FLGS forums are getting to the point now that if you post anything 40k AT ALL, there are a contingent of goofs on there that will simply come on and post anti-GW statements and other mess about how GW games suck...and the threads deteriorate. People interested in talking about 40k/fantasy have a hard time getting good conversation going, indeed, you think twice about even bothering to post online about it.

...and I wont even bother with the attitude toward a competetive tournament gamer there. Basically, you're some idiot that pays large amounts of cash to play a stupid game of 40k...you're slowed.

I came on with a thread telling my "Friends" how well I did at adepticon with my Gothic Fleet and my Grey Knights and the first response was "...and I beat an 8 year old at checkers while waiting to be seated at Stuckey's", needless to say, that was pretty annoying.

Link----> http://www.atlantis-comics.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6130&hl=

It's getting to the point that I'm starting to really dislike even going to my FLGS. It's a shame since it was once such a great place to find 40k gamers. Now its turning into a bunch of friggin' haterz that enjoy talking smack to people.

Anyone else run into this type of thing?

In the immortal words of Triggerbaby:

"I heard that GW set a whole box of orphans on fire on the steps of a church.

Then Privateer Press came along and put out the fire with his own blood and then found homes for all the orphans and gave them all nega-cancer* for Christmas.



*nega-cancer is the highly expensive but helpful opposite of cancer. If cancer and nega-cancer collide, they cancel each other out in a shower of delicous candy."

PP is notably marred by it's rather rabid fanbois. You state anything even remotely negative, or even not entirely positive, and they pounce on you, seemingly telling others just so their dissenting voice drowns out your own, despite how clear it was the original statement was just your own opinion.

Now why they decide to rag on GW so much, I honestly don't know. They aren't cheaper, the game isn't a 40k equivalent (if anything, it's like a dumbed down Adeptus Titanicus*), and as you said, Steampunk is far from being everyones taste (I cannot stand it myself. Just seems so.....dull).

I've got nothing against PP. I do feel their fluff is somewhat lacking (at least what I've read of it) and that the games have a fundamental lack of variety to hold me, but I wouldn't say the games themselves are necessarily inferior to any other.

I used to play it for a short time. Collected a Khador force, kept getting my head kicked in off more experienced players (who refused to teach me the tricks. Tossers) and due to this, I found my interest waning very, very quickly. Plus, the Jacks are to my mind, less than inspiring after a while. I think it's the teeny tiny legs that stop me really liking them.

And I genuinely prefer Warhammer Fantasy. I like the models. I like the background. I like the mechanics. Add in I have a pool of around, oooh, 15 like minded gamers to play against, and the appeal is easy to see. Now if someone doesn't get on with Fantasy, or prefers another system, this makes neither of us cretins. We simply have different tastes.

But yeah, I run into it all too often.

*I say dumbed down, not because Hordemachine is lacking in detail, more that I have fond, head hurting memories of playing Adeptus Titanicus, and the fun had trying to keep track of the damage done etc. And I feel it's an accurate comparrison because Adeptus Titanicus was mainly about the big stuff, with the little stuff having a mainly support role.

Please dont destroy my home boards btw....I actually like the owner.

Looks like your forums need a moderator.. or at least a moderator willing to slap a few people around. looking at quite a few posts and then looking at the forum rules, it appears to me that too many 'old' school posters have forgotten them and the 'new' posters don't care about them..

meh, either get a thicker skin or firebomb the place..

two_heads_talking wrote:Looks like your forums need a moderator.. or at least a moderator willing to slap a few people around. looking at quite a few posts and then looking at the forum rules, it appears to me that too many 'old' school posters have forgotten them and the 'new' posters don't care about them..

meh, either get a thicker skin or firebomb the place..

Heh, I AM one of the mods...but if I moderate you, it's because my agruement is so weak or I'm just being a bully. Funny how that works.

I checked out that "warhammer is checkers and 40k is chess" post and decided not to read any further.

Deadshane1 wrote:Warning: Rant incoming!

Here's what I cannot stand. GW is taking a hit with some of my local gamers more or less giving it up for Warmachine/Hordes. Some of the veterans are upset with the codexes and their "alleged" overpoweredness. For some of the locals it seems to be ruining their game/fun. They're shelving their Fantasy and 40k armies and getting all into PP games.

This is fine and I dont have a problem with it. PP games really arent my thing. Personally I think the fluff is really weak compared to GW storylines and GW models still seem superior to me. I've never been much into the "steampunk" style that is so prevalent in Warmachine and I just cannot get excited about the system. Models look great, game might be awesome, I'm just not interested. I'm just to involved with my 40k/Fantasy hobbies and the way the armybooks/codeii are coming out doesnt really bother me so much.

Where I have a problem is when the veterans start badmouthing 40k on our store forums and basically stating that if you're more into 40k than Warmachine/Hordes you need to "wake up" or that you're a "less evolved" gamer....which to me sounds so stupid I have trouble arguing with them about it.

I came back on one poster simply stating that his statement that 40k gamers are "Behind the curve" as being "just a little condescending". He replies with a borderline inflammetory remark and didnt even bother to read my points that I made. Those points were basically "this is a hobby...do what you LIKE to do, if thats PP more power to you. If its 40k, you're just as much a gamer as a PP fan. Basically, they're all great products in their own way's".

LINK----> http://www.atlantis-comics.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6132&hl=

My FLGS forums are getting to the point now that if you post anything 40k AT ALL, there are a contingent of goofs on there that will simply come on and post anti-GW statements and other mess about how GW games suck...and the threads deteriorate. People interested in talking about 40k/fantasy have a hard time getting good conversation going, indeed, you think twice about even bothering to post online about it.

...and I wont even bother with the attitude toward a competetive tournament gamer there. Basically, you're some idiot that pays large amounts of cash to play a stupid game of 40k...you're slowed.

I came on with a thread telling my "Friends" how well I did at adepticon with my Gothic Fleet and my Grey Knights and the first response was "...and I beat an 8 year old at checkers while waiting to be seated at Stuckey's", needless to say, that was pretty annoying.

Link----> http://www.atlantis-comics.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6130&hl=

It's getting to the point that I'm starting to really dislike even going to my FLGS. It's a shame since it was once such a great place to find 40k gamers. Now its turning into a bunch of friggin' haterz that enjoy talking smack to people.

Anyone else run into this type of thing?

Son, America never got anywhere being polite. We did it with guns and beer. When you stick your hand into a mess of goo that was your best mini's face, you'll know what to do.

I think you should tell Tony to stop hurting your feelings and don't cry when someone says "GW" without following it with, "is the bestest ever!"

Just for the record there are like 100 GW games played a week at that store and maybe 2 PP ones.

But seriously....after playing PP games you have to start wondering why you even bother playing that GW trash at all!



As someone who played 40k, switched to WHFB, and now mainly enjoy's PP and only plays WHFB because I like the people and the local tournament stuff that goes on....yeah it's hard not to rag on GW. But unlike some other local people who went through the same thing - I don't harp on people playing their games.

Bat Manuel wrote:I think you should tell Tony to stop hurting your feelings and don't cry when someone says "GW" without following it with, "is the bestest ever!"

Just for the record there are like 100 GW games played a week at that store and maybe 2 PP ones.

Yea Mike, but when was the last time you could feel safe posting about GW stuff on our forums....I dont remember a time.


...and gimmie a break, all you guys DO nowadays is trash GW. Also, to be fair, I only said something when it was implied that GW players are some sort of "low foreheads".

It's like people listening to different genres of music... one person may like rock while the other likes rap (I myself like drum and bass... if anyone knows what that is *looks at the Brits ). It's the same with Wargames. I havent tried Warmachine yet but am considering giving it a shot. My main reason I havent yet is A) I dont have anyone to play against and B) I love the fluff of 40k. Perhaps too much, haha.

What I'm getting at is I think it's stupid for people to make those comments about other gamers based on which game they play (sure a bit of friendly rivalry is fine but theres always a line to be crossed). And quite frankly, if someone was doing that to me and I told them to stop several times and they kept persisting, I'd probably knock them out

Why do you have to feel safe to post?

Why do you feel the need to justify your love of a game to people who obviously don't agree.

My advice, screw your FLGS. It's his board and ultimately his responsibility. If that is no longer an environment you feel comfortable participating in, then politely tell the lazy ass manager that he needs to reign things in. Not everyone has to agree, and politeness isn't even a requirement. However, you, as a consumer, can and will take your cash elsewhere.

LOUD NOISES!

Please note I say this as a Warhammer 40k\Fantasy player

The only reason I feel PP has a right to pick on GW products is for the most part GW is static in its whole approach to the game. I was mildly interested in Warmachine and Hordes, so i read through the books. Low and behold they have an evolving storyline. 40k may be richer in fluff now, but GW has done very little to add to it in the last decade or so. Codexes don't really add anything, and the fluff from them has become smaller and smaller each passing year. You would have to read through Black Library books to get any depth, but frankly they don't evolve the whole Warhammer universe at all.

GW has superior models, and better old fluff...that is it. The rules are The game itself is stuck in time, where nothing significant happens. PP does not constantly go back to one army (Space marines: either spiky or no spikes...they are all the same.) to change the rules for temporary better sales while they leave the others to wallow.

It has been said many times and i agree...GW is a model company who has a game for them. PP is a game company who makes models. If there were ever an unholy merger where PP made rules and GW made the models...well i think the sheer awesomeness that would come out would instantly destroy reality....

Yeah, I see similar hate on the FoW main forum. They've got a thread going on and on about GW's past sins and how FoW is totally not like that.

I dunno, I like both systems (and PP too!). I can see where they're coming from, GW's definitely made some mistakes, but then so has PP, and BattleFront. At the end of the day they're all companies, they're all trying to make a buck. If you don't like it vote with your dollars and play something else.

What I don't get is all the anger and hatred. It's even stranger on sites that are supposedly pro GW. I understand it on the other company sites, even if it is immature. If you don't like the game, or the company, why are you here?

I got sick of GW at one point, and started playing Warmachine. Had a blast. I'd point out some of the reasons why I left if anybody asked, but usually I'd point out all the positives about Warmachine. Hanging around a GW site or the 40K section of a store forum making negative comments and being a pain is pretty sad and immature.

Next time they start, hand them a ruler and the bathroom key.

"What's this?"

"So you can measure yourself where we don't have to watch."

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:PP is notably marred by it's rather rabid fanbois. You state anything even remotely negative, or even not entirely positive, and they pounce on you, seemingly telling others just so their dissenting voice drowns out your own, despite how clear it was the original statement was just your own opinion.

This is all pretty ironic considering the fact that the PP forums are in a horrible state of uproar following the release of the WM2 documents. Pronouncements of "DOOOM!" are everywhere.

anticitizen013 wrote:It's like people listening to different genres of music... one person may like rock while the other likes rap (I myself like drum and bass... if anyone knows what that is *looks at the Brits ). It's the same with Wargames. I havent tried Warmachine yet but am considering giving it a shot. My main reason I havent yet is A) I dont have anyone to play against and B) I love the fluff of 40k. Perhaps too much, haha.

What I'm getting at is I think it's stupid for people to make those comments about other gamers based on which game they play (sure a bit of friendly rivalry is fine but theres always a line to be crossed). And quite frankly, if someone was doing that to me and I told them to stop several times and they kept persisting, I'd probably knock them out

QFT!

See, against some kinds of fanboys, only two things work. Physical violence, and beating them at their own game. So you can use your mod powers to virtually slap the crap out of them, or do it in real life. Like any kind of real life bully, they'll stop it after a while. If they make irelevant posts in a thread about GW, delete them. Warn them you'll delete them if they do it again through a PM. If they grouse about freedom of speech or whatever, just link them to the forum rules, and add something like, 'whoever said this place was a democracy? It's got rules, same as real life. Cry mich ein river. schvuncesticker, and deal with it'. They might whine alittle, but if the admin is a friend of yours, there's precious little they can do, except leave to set up shop elsewhere. And I'm sure you'd be heartbroken if that happened.

Deadshane1 wrote:Warning: Rant incoming!

Here's what I cannot stand. GW is taking a hit with some of my local gamers more or less giving it up for Warmachine/Hordes. Some of the veterans are upset with the codexes and their "alleged" overpoweredness. For some of the locals it seems to be ruining their game/fun. They're shelving their Fantasy and 40k armies and getting all into PP games.

This is fine and I dont have a problem with it. PP games really arent my thing. Personally I think the fluff is really weak compared to GW storylines and GW models still seem superior to me. I've never been much into the "steampunk" style that is so prevalent in Warmachine and I just cannot get excited about the system. Models look great, game might be awesome, I'm just not interested. I'm just to involved with my 40k/Fantasy hobbies and the way the armybooks/codeii are coming out doesnt really bother me so much.

Where I have a problem is when the veterans start badmouthing 40k on our store forums and basically stating that if you're more into 40k than Warmachine/Hordes you need to "wake up" or that you're a "less evolved" gamer....which to me sounds so stupid I have trouble arguing with them about it.

I came back on one poster simply stating that his statement that 40k gamers are "Behind the curve" as being "just a little condescending". He replies with a borderline inflammetory remark and didnt even bother to read my points that I made. Those points were basically "this is a hobby...do what you LIKE to do, if thats PP more power to you. If its 40k, you're just as much a gamer as a PP fan. Basically, they're all great products in their own way's".

LINK----> http://www.atlantis-comics.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6132&hl=

My FLGS forums are getting to the point now that if you post anything 40k AT ALL, there are a contingent of goofs on there that will simply come on and post anti-GW statements and other mess about how GW games suck...and the threads deteriorate. People interested in talking about 40k/fantasy have a hard time getting good conversation going, indeed, you think twice about even bothering to post online about it.

...and I wont even bother with the attitude toward a competetive tournament gamer there. Basically, you're some idiot that pays large amounts of cash to play a stupid game of 40k...you're slowed.

I came on with a thread telling my "Friends" how well I did at adepticon with my Gothic Fleet and my Grey Knights and the first response was "...and I beat an 8 year old at checkers while waiting to be seated at Stuckey's", needless to say, that was pretty annoying.

Link----> http://www.atlantis-comics.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6130&hl=

It's getting to the point that I'm starting to really dislike even going to my FLGS. It's a shame since it was once such a great place to find 40k gamers. Now its turning into a bunch of friggin' haterz that enjoy talking smack to people.

Anyone else run into this type of thing?

Links not working for me.

Those boards are, to be quite honest, a pitiful excuse for human interaction. You want to let your kids know how adults interact? I'm an adult too, and none of the people I talk to, from my local gaming store to my colleagues at work and my own friends, would talk to each other that way. Why? Not because it's rude, or could hurt someone's feelings. An adult shouldn't be phased by comments like that. We wouldn't talk to each other that way because it's ignorant. There is an old expression that goes something along the lines of 'Those who have to communicate with explitives and foul language usually do so because they are too foolish to know of any other way'.

If that upsets you, then you should take a look at yourself and think where it is coming from, and maybe even re-evaluate your own high and mighty ego.

If you want to talk like a truck driver in front of adolescents, then go for it. If that's what makes you feel like a man.

- this is not directed at you deadshane, moreso I am just trying to express some feelings I have about youth today. I'm in education, and more and more we see kids without role models and those who they look to for advice are underachievers themselves. Seeing that attitude run so rampant and unregulated really frustrates me.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Collected a Khador force, kept getting my head kicked in off more experienced players (who refused to teach me the tricks. Tossers) and due to this, I found my interest waning very, very quickly.

I was under the impression that Wargaming is more of a "self study" pursuit.

@Deadshane: GW makes it easy for PP fanbois to get on their case - mostly because of three things.

1. GW's playtesting and quality assurance and rules support (FAQs and errata) is a travesty.
2. The balance of powerlevels within GW's core products suffer from wild power swings due to their update model. Time between army updates is completely arbitrary - Sub armies such as Black Templars have their own codex, but full armies such as DE (and until recently, Orks) only recieved minor errata since 3rd edition.
3. GW's ruleset contains some abstractions and simplifications which artificially limit tactical options - i.e. no shooting into HTH, uniform movement rates, unused LD statistic etc. - This last point is arguable, but the 40k ruleset does alow far fewer options than WM's ruleset when it comes to models targeting, movement, special actions etc. This also pushes a bit into the lack of synergy inherent within GW's ruleset - where few models provide synergy - this leads to the perception that while the cost / model investment is similar, PP's rulest gives you more mileage for your model purchase. (assuming that you can find opponents!) I'm currently building a new 1500 Space Marine army. Even liberally using Black Reach parts (2 sets), this army will cost me $600 Cdn - in an ironic twist, I'm buildng this army because I can't find any WM opponents!!! This army can only be used "one way". WM's warcaster system alows for much more flexibility. I think that this PERCEPTION in value also hurts GW, even though you will easily run the same costs buying Warmachine models.

If I slag GW, it is only because of the above. GW does have fantastic models, and the price / model cost is often less than Privateer Press. The background is second to none, but GW's poor rules support is the deal breaker for me.

malfred wrote:Next time they start, hand them a ruler and the bathroom key.

"What's this?"

"So you can measure yourself where we don't have to watch."

yea baby. Thats classic, Malf.

Frazzled wrote:

malfred wrote:Next time they start, hand them a ruler and the bathroom key.

"What's this?"

"So you can measure yourself where we don't have to watch."

yea baby. Thats classic, Malf.

Really? I've always preferred the more direct approach of simply dropping your trousers, and then delcaring 'One way or another, matter settled'

malfred wrote:Next time they start, hand them a ruler and the bathroom key.

"What's this?"

"So you can measure yourself where we don't have to watch."

some of those posters might need a micrometer..

@karmaiko.. I agree 110% with your assessment.

Privateer's playtesting and QA is no better, imo.
You also cannot compare a company that has maintained 3 or more games for how many years? Versus a company that has run 2 games for barely 5-6 years.

Yes, I get it. Warmachine's SUPER! Hordes is AWESOME!
Those comparisons between the rules and model counts?
Yeah. That's kinda silly.
The games of Warmachine that we ran, had on average, a 30 model count on a single side, tops.
And those were for *big* games.

But honestly, I can see both sides of the fence. I can understand why people are so rabid in defending their game. But it's stupid to get up in arms about it. If you want to diss a company that opened up the way for all these new model games?
By all means, go for it. I'd love to see the crap put out by some companies if GW hadn't set some form of standard.

I got into warmachine pretty heavily when it first came out. A lot of the players that played it when it first came out were embittered GW players. Maybe they are still there. But I stopped playing the game due to not being able to get a game anywhere.

I do remember one of the local WM players calling GW "The Great Satan" at one point.


GG

Kanluwen wrote:Privateer's playtesting and QA is no better, imo.
You also cannot compare a company that has maintained 3 or more games for how many years? Versus a company that has run 2 games for barely 5-6 years.

That's a strawman arguement. Yes, GW has a much larger library of material to maintain, but that does not excuse their terrible excuses for FAQs and errata.

Privateer's problems lie in other areas - as it is becoming obvious that the units being added are outgrowing the framework of the initial design.

generalgrog wrote:I do remember one of the local WM players calling GW "The Great Satan" at one point.

Was it by any chance during 4th edition?

IMO, 4th in my mind, has been the gakkiest edition to date. 5th is a huge improvement. I still do not understand why they do not provide a "black book" soft reset for all races at the start of every edition. It would fix a lot of problems, such as Landraiders, identically named weapons having different stats in different codecies, orphan armies from 2 editions ago, and basically alow a rebalancing of points to counter shifts introduced by introduction of new core mechanics such as running.

-Sigh-

Deadshane1 wrote:Warning: Rant incoming!...Anyone else run into this type of thing?

Deadshane, so PP players are ragging on GW on a home board of yours, Really? I have never been to your forums, don't know any of the people you're talking about, however I have played both games, and I have to say that is completely laughable. Perhaps they (people on the boards you are talking about) say that because PP is more responsive to the player base (FAQ etc.) that might be a case, but comparing the games....

?

Warmachine is the worst parts of 40k, every game I have ever seen played comes down to who has the better magic combo! Every single army/model is based on unique special powers rules exceptions. It is like playing 40k combat patrol with only Dreadnoughts and HQ choices and no mission. In fact, I daresay, in play it was almost a direct lift from the old CMG with the War Golems! All the games I ever played were decided when a warcaster died, and every time it was because of some UBER combo of special powers. Then the creators of the game went on to make bigger and bigger golems to the point of audacity. Every army has one pattern, every time, and NO Missions, boaring.

Not a lot of set up and counter charge tactics in using your "special power" the entire game is based on engineering combos, it's played on the paper before the minis are ever set up...

Furthermore it's a game for people who can't afford or paint an entire GW army...

Beyond the flame like rant, here's a list of points where warhammer has it all over PP (assuming you have the cash and discipline for GW army creation):

Missions,
Troops,
Mini Range Options,
Army Variety,
No need for little Cards and record keeping in Warhammer,
National Tournaments/Events,
Size of player base,
Vehicles,
Plastic Models,
Game Scale (bigger is better),
Spin off games (apocalypse, necromunda, space hulk, combat patrol, etc.) with the same models
Fiction (published novels and fluff),
Age (warhammer is how much older?)

Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer. Of course the underdogs need to re-assure eachother.

Please quote this in your other forum as some points someone else made if you'd like!

keezus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Privateer's playtesting and QA is no better, imo.
You also cannot compare a company that has maintained 3 or more games for how many years? Versus a company that has run 2 games for barely 5-6 years.

That's a strawman arguement. Yes, GW has a much larger library of material to maintain, but that does not excuse their terrible excuses for FAQs and errata.

Privateer's problems lie in other areas - as it is becoming obvious that the units being added are outgrowing the framework of the initial design.

Games Workshop, while they may not have the omgosh most amazing FAQs and errata, they also have taken the time to flesh out every army, and even some minor armies. They've also given us some pretty nice campaign materials to work with, and Forge World does some pretty nice support for it.

Privateer's advancing storyline method kind of defeats the idea of having a miniatures game. If they keep it up, they might end up like White Wolf, what with reaching an "end".

But you're right. GW does need better FAQs and errata. Or people can do like they've always done, and use house rules for those glaring bits.

@ Augustus: You are certainly entitled to your opinion!

@ Kanluwen: I agree with your point about the advancing storyline. I am holding out hope that MKII WM will refocus the game and fix many of the accumulated flaws. GW's biggest strengths are its huge IP base and established player base. But on that note, having a huge player base is precisely the reason that GW needs to issue official errata - as groups in different areas will often develop different interpretations where rules are ambiguous.

Ok why are we getting so Warseer and heres me thinking you were all friendsly sorts.

On the whole GW/PP thing yea hmmmmm *shrugs* each to themselves I suppose I have friends who play GW I have friends who play PP but we dont all go Kirk Vs Spock over it.

So like what you want I dont have a oppinion

Augustus wrote:Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer.

That was the most pitiful frelling pile of grox-manure I've ever seen posted on this forum in defense of Games Workshop products. You should feel a tremendous sense of accomplishment.

Augustus wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Warning: Rant incoming!...Anyone else run into this type of thing?

Deadshane, so PP players are ragging on GW on a home board of yours, Really? I have never been to your forums, don't know any of the people you're talking about, however I have played both games, and I have to say that is completely laughable. Perhaps they (people on the boards you are talking about) say that because PP is more responsive to the player base (FAQ etc.) that might be a case, but comparing the games....

?

Warmachine is the worst parts of 40k, every game I have ever seen played comes down to who has the better magic combo! Every single army/model is based on unique special powers rules exceptions. It is like playing 40k combat patrol with only Dreadnoughts and HQ choices and no mission. In fact, I daresay, in play it was almost a direct lift from the old CMG with the War Golems! All the games I ever played were decided when a warcaster died, and every time it was because of some UBER combo of special powers. Then the creators of the game went on to make bigger and bigger golems to the point of audacity. Every army has one pattern, every time, and NO Missions, boaring.

Not a lot of set up and counter charge tactics in using your "special power" the entire game is based on engineering combos, it's played on the paper before the minis are ever set up...

Furthermore it's a game for people who can't afford or paint an entire GW army...

Beyond the flame like rant, here's a list of points where warhammer has it all over PP (assuming you have the cash and discipline for GW army creation):

Missions,
Troops,
Mini Range Options,
Army Variety,
No need for little Cards and record keeping in Warhammer,
National Tournaments/Events,
Size of player base,
Vehicles,
Plastic Models,
Game Scale (bigger is better),
Spin off games (apocalypse, necromunda, space hulk, combat patrol, etc.) with the same models
Fiction (published novels and fluff),
Age (warhammer is how much older?)

Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer. Of course the underdogs need to re-assure eachother.

Please quote this in your other forum as some points someone else made if you'd like!

I suspect your point is well enough taken, the OP of the original thread has already posted in this one. (Bat Manuel) I'd like to see what he has to say about your points.

Yes I sense everyone is getting silly.

It's great to know that Dakka has stopped creating its own forum drama to the point that other worthless forum drama has to get dragged onto ours to see if it's interesting enough to get dramatic over.

Why do you care if the people at your store make fun of your future toy game? Aren't you winning in real life? If your "Gamers" are anything like the ones over here, they weigh 300 pounds, use large words to justify their lack of a "real job", and score on date night with their right hand to catgirl pr0n.

I don't give a flying goddamn about any of my local gaming store's peanut gallery of half-formed opinions from quasi-literate quasi-college dumbfuckistanis.

Know how to combat it? Be the dick that people look to because you're winning in Real Life. Give them the option of joining the mouth breathing stereotypical nerd-herd or forming their own opinion and enjoying a hobby.

Get the mouth breathers into a debate, force them to form an opinion, and then shoot them down and mock them when it's obviously BS. And if you can't do that, then you're not the guy to fix it.

Deadshane, you're getting overworked over a few fanboys who live by a page number. If anything, the whole "page 5" explains a lot about their mindset when it comes to miniature gaming. That's personally why I gave up on the game system. I prefer to have fun when I play a miniature game.

Nerd flamewars are the virtual equivalent of limpwristed slap-fights.

Indeed I agree with Sourclams and thats not being sarcastic. I believe that what he saids is sense

If you have a oppinion by all means express it but then take a breather and actually read what people post back form a debate not a playground fight!.

Or like me compromise its not the end of the world.For many of us it maybe is I understand that many of you (and this is not meant in a mocking way) used Warhammer to get through the difficulties in life and that you feel that you owe GW your undying loyality but dont go all huffy and hypocritical for what at the end of the day is just a difference of oppinion.

Plus the scathing personal insults............why?

PP products are hardly beacons of balance and good design philosophy. You're friends are just catty bitches that need to lose their sacred cow of the month and just admit that all little painted men games are a stupid and childish hobbies, and being a fanboy of one versus others just makes them Dorito encrusted neckbeard nerds who can only clearly state their feelings about the opposite sex when their cheeto stained fingers slap their WoW macro keyboards in their mothers basements.

Warmachine may very well paint themselves into a corner unless they come up with something for the armies other than warcasters, warjacks and troops. That's one of the reasons why I stick with 40K despite my growing hate for where the rules are going, because they have tanks and aircraft and other such stuff for variety. Also, I have spent too many years collecting 40K stuff to start all over now.
Oh, and if the content of this thread continues the way it is, I may very well go back to Warseer, until I get banned which probably won't be very much longer.

What a bunch of douche bags.

Jesus, are you kidding me? We all play with toy soldiers, we are all dorks. We need to unite, not fight each other.

Any game is complex when played by two people of a high skill level. And any game can be a joke when played by people of a low sill level.

It reminds me of people who try and convince new comers to 40K to not play space marines. I always tell them to pipe down. So what if there are lots of Marine players. The point is that people should play what they want to, that is what the hobby is about. Being negative only reflects negatively on you.

I would want to tell them to take there big metal models and shove them right up their asses, but that would just make it worse.

Be a bigger man, ignore them and just keep playing and enjoying your game. If you stay positive, other people will want to game with you and leave the old women's knitting club to themselves.

warpcrafter wrote:Warmachine may very well paint themselves into a corner unless they come up with something for the armies other than warcasters, warjacks and troops. That's one of the reasons why I stick with 40K despite my growing hate for where the rules are going, because they have tanks and aircraft and other such stuff for variety. Also, I have spent too many years collecting 40K stuff to start all over now.
Oh, and if the content of this thread continues the way it is, I may very well go back to Warseer, until I get banned which probably won't be very much longer.

YES! I got booted off Warseer cause I grew a brain and decided I couldnt take their Fanboy high and mighty uptheirassness so dont be afriad that they will boot you just means one less hobbyist takes their gak!

I find it interesting that PP are now taking a path similar to GW.

Rejigging the rules, and monkeying around with points values. I understand they will also be releasing seperate books for each army (Faction as a word here is inaccurate. Catholicism is a 'faction' of Christianity. What we have here are different countries and their armed forces clashing!). Even apparently going semi plastic in places.

Given their rather bold status when they first started off (when Page 5 was pretty much an 'we;re not GW nor anything like them willy wave) I find it interesting that they are having to go much the same way.

I even postulated this a couple of years ago on Warseer, simply stating given the games nature, it had a definite ceiling. Thus, over time, peoples collections will naturally grow beyond this gaming glass ceiling, at which point they might consider a swift rescaling.

Interesting to note however that, like GW, they appear to be missing the trick of keeping the previous rule set available for purchase, if only lightly supported. Shame really, but I dare say there are logistical constraints here.

Well I get much the same gak where I live,people telling me not to waste time on silly toy men or genrally getting up in my face for doing anything I love,I am also suprised at the number of GW to PP converts and have on the net also encountered their fanboy antics.I was sadened after being kick off a site or 2 because I told em to bugger off,after they started an argument with me for a post stating that I favoured GW over PP.I find that people are genrally like sheep they follow the herd and I am sure in 5 years or so many will come back to their previous hobby systems after having a disagreement with the games rules or because of the direction the companies taking,I will lastly state that I belive that both systems have valid pros and cons but that I at least am still a GW supporter.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Augustus wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Warning: Rant incoming!...Anyone else run into this type of thing?

Missions,
Troops,
Mini Range Options,
Army Variety,
No need for little Cards and record keeping in Warhammer,
National Tournaments/Events,
Size of player base,
Vehicles,
Plastic Models,
Game Scale (bigger is better),
Spin off games (apocalypse, necromunda, space hulk, combat patrol, etc.) with the same models
Fiction (published novels and fluff),
Age (warhammer is how much older?)

Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer. Of course the underdogs need to re-assure eachother.

Please quote this in your other forum as some points someone else made if you'd like!

I suspect your point is well enough taken, the OP of the original thread has already posted in this one. (Bat Manuel) I'd like to see what he has to say about your points.

Normally I don't really care, but since Deadshane asked I'll throw out some counterpoints.

Missions,-->Both systems have a bunch of different missions.
Troops,--> Is this the same as the next point?
Mini Range Options,--> This corresponds to the company's age and Heroclix beats both GW & PP combined on this.
Army Variety,--> Eldravatar, Dual Lash, Nob Bikers. Great variety, and again this corresponds to the company's age.
No need for little Cards and record keeping in Warhammer,--> Dice and cotton balls then?
National Tournaments/Events,--> I'd say that's a tie this year.
Size of player base,-->Pokemon, Magic & Yugiho spank everything so that's a moot point.
Vehicles,--> Personal preference.
Plastic Models,--> Personal preference.
Game Scale (bigger is better),--> Personal preference.
Spin off games (apocalypse, necromunda, space hulk, combat patrol, etc.) with the same models-->This corresponds to the company's age and there already are spin off PP games.
Fiction (published novels and fluff),--> This has nothing to do with the actual game does in now Eldrad?
Age (warhammer is how much older?)--> That's like saying "I'd rather hook up with your Grandma over your hot mom."
Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer.--> That's an opinion even though the games are so dissimilar as someone already pointed out.

Of course the underdogs need to re-assure each other.--> Isn't that what this thread is all about

sourclams wrote:It's great to know that Dakka has stopped creating its own forum drama to the point that other worthless forum drama has to get dragged onto ours to see if it's interesting enough to get dramatic over.

Why do you care if the people at your store make fun of your future toy game? Aren't you winning in real life? If your "Gamers" are anything like the ones over here, they weigh 300 pounds, use large words to justify their lack of a "real job", and score on date night with their right hand to catgirl pr0n.

I don't give a flying goddamn about any of my local gaming store's peanut gallery of half-formed opinions from quasi-literate quasi-college dumbfuckistanis.

Know how to combat it? Be the dick that people look to because you're winning in Real Life. Give them the option of joining the mouth breathing stereotypical nerd-herd or forming their own opinion and enjoying a hobby.

Get the mouth breathers into a debate, force them to form an opinion, and then shoot them down and mock them when it's obviously BS. And if you can't do that, then you're not the guy to fix it.

QFT. Win at real life.

On the other hand, I agree that it is frustrating to not have a good group of guys to game with. I've been gaming less and less and doing more and more with other hobbies and friends, but I miss gaming.

Lots of haterz out there. We are all that at some time or another.
Some people have cause to criticize while others simply do it because they feel compelled to voice their unwarranted opinion.

I criticize 40K all the time. Everyone does because there is a lot to criticize. But the superiority complex I see in some gamers on their gaming preference is a bit...taxing on the senses so to speak.

It really does come down to preference.

I personally love the idea of warmahordes because it has sold mechanics like M:tG and I get to play with dollies while I am playing it. But I honestly cannot get into it. Mostly because of all the rules I have to keep up with and I am not willing to memorize every ability to be competitive so I refrain from playing warmahordes.

40K is pretty similar in that vein. But since I have been playing it so long I have a different comfort level and am accustomed to its sometimes wonky mechanics.

Tell people to lay out their critique in a informal manner and to stuff their opinions up their butt.

It's a shame this kinda fanboy stuff has to happen. It comes up in Vid games all the time too. (X-box vs PS3)

I don't think the correct approach is to come back with "Oh yeah, well 40k POWNS Warmachine 'cause we got tanks" or some such fanboy counter.

I think the best way to get them to shut up is just respond, "hey, PP is cool, so is 40k. Some folks like Chocolate, others like vanilla."

Then see if they can get into a fanboy argument over ice cream flavors.

Bat Manuel wrote:
Mini Range Options,--> This corresponds to the company's age and Heroclix beats both GW & PP combined on this.
Army Variety,--> Eldravatar, Dual Lash, Nob Bikers. Great variety, and again this corresponds to the company's age.
Size of player base,-->Pokemon, Magic & Yugiho spank everything so that's a moot point.
Spin off games (apocalypse, necromunda, space hulk, combat patrol, etc.) with the same models-->This corresponds to the company's age and there already are spin off PP games.

Sorry, but complaining that 40k is older just doesn't make sense.

Yeah, they've had more time to write fluff and work on models. That's what makes them better. It's an advantage that they have over Privateer.

It's like saying "Hey, Privateer Press only makes better rules because their upper brass cares more about rules balance! That doesn't count!"

It's as valid a reason for the game to be better as any other. That doesn't make it better just because it's older, but the advantages GW has due to their age are as legitimate as any Privateer Press has.

Also, talking about card games is a complete non-sequitur. The popularity of Magic and Pokemon has nothing to do with Warhammer and Warmachine. The greater fan-base of Warhammer is a legitimate advantage when you're looking for a game.

<sarcasm>I just don't understand this whole PP > GW or GW < PP when everyone knows FoW is better than both!

Sorry couldn't resist besides everyone knows that right before the company went under Warzone/Chronopia were the bestest. </sarcasm>

Honestly after having gone through the majority of miniature games over the years, all 5 versions of 40k, 6 versions of fantasy, all the specialist games, fow, warmachine, chronopia, warzone, clanwars, void, battletech etc.

You come to the realization that the game system doesn't really matter all that much. It comes down to, do I like the background, do I think the miniatures look cool, and do I have friends that will play the game with me.

Warmaster wrote:

You come to the realization that the game system doesn't really matter all that much. It comes down to, do I like the background, do I think the miniatures look cool, and do I have friends that will play the game with me.

True words that. True words.

Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer.--> That's an opinion even though the games are so dissimilar as someone already pointed out.

It's an opinion, Orly? Explain the red and Gold berzerkers in PP then

Skorn and Khorne?

So they're totally different...? That was a shameless copy. I was going to wait for the release of their totally unique green plague guys, you know, Snurgle. But it hasn't come out yet...

Of course the underdogs need to re-assure each other.--> Isn't that what this thread is all about

Of course it is! I don't care how people spend their freetime or what's on other forums. I thought it would be fun to make Deadshane's case, a little more, dramaticly! Come on this is Dakka! The fortress of 40k! Do I think GW>PP, obviously, is it really? Who cares.

Good luck whatever you choose.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I find it interesting that PP are now taking a path similar to GW.

Rejigging the rules, and monkeying around with points values. I understand they will also be releasing seperate books for each army (Faction as a word here is inaccurate. Catholicism is a 'faction' of Christianity. What we have here are different countries and their armed forces clashing!). Even apparently going semi plastic in places.

Given their rather bold status when they first started off (when Page 5 was pretty much an 'we;re not GW nor anything like them willy wave) I find it interesting that they are having to go much the same way.

I even postulated this a couple of years ago on Warseer, simply stating given the games nature, it had a definite ceiling. Thus, over time, peoples collections will naturally grow beyond this gaming glass ceiling, at which point they might consider a swift rescaling.

Interesting to note however that, like GW, they appear to be missing the trick of keeping the previous rule set available for purchase, if only lightly supported. Shame really, but I dare say there are logistical constraints here.

If you were following what is actually going on right now in the PP world, and how it's being done, you'd find that this is amazingly different from GW and is (IMO) far and away better.

Yes PP is doing faction books. They're also releasing all 5 Faction books, one a month, each month following the release of the new rule set. I'm not going to go 10 years without an update to my Khador army, while Cygnar gets 3 rules updates.

Yes PP is re-balancing the game. They're also doing a free public/open beta-test where people can submit feedback on the rules - where cases of outright over-nerfage/buff can hopefully be caught.

As of now there's nothing that really pushes the overall game size up. That really will flow down from what they set the tournaments for Mk2 games to be at and obviously the rest of the gamers will probably follow that. While it's true you can field more "stuff" because you get "Jack Points" with casters, with the changes to the system, you'll more likely to field more Jacks than lots and lots of troops, which means less models overall in a game.

To be fair, I did say similar path, not same.

I quite like the concept of onlnee beta of the rules. Might not work as many people hope (lots of voices, and only so many will be in unison) but it's better than not at all, sure.

I'm inclined to agree with many of the people posting here that who really gives a flying monkey wrench.

For one thing fanboys will never go away, they are a fact of nerd life that we just have to accept their are some people that just take it far too far and move on, yes thats very nice that your Imperial Guardsmen have been painted strictly to the background on how they should look with the correct insignia/unit numbers etc in the right places or yes thats very nice that Half Life is better than Halo have cookie...

I cite two examples from my own personal experience with fanboys

1) The Half Life 2 Halo 2 debate: Jesus back in what 2004 when I just started college (High School for our friends from across the pond I believe) this was all I heard everyday from my mates at college (luckily I had a PSP and Breath of Fire 3) the argument would swing back and forth over which game was going to be better, they asked me (now i'm not a big fan of FPS i prefer a good old JRPG something slow and relaxing) and so I said I would probably by Halo because it was most like how a 40k video game should be and I got a tirade of fanboy abuse from the HL2 crowd, for crying out loud you all know I don't like FPS games that much and i'm being berated by supernerds because I didn't pick HL2 so I said so what its just a video game lads i'd much rather play through Fire Warrior 15 times consecutively than listen to this pathetic gak again. Luckily at the mention of Fire Warrior they all shut up.

2) The 40k/Fantasy debate: Hey don't forget their are divisions in the GW camp too I hear this all the time in my FLGS and it sickens me to death. Recently I have become quite jaded on my outlook to 40k so i've just stopped playing it when I went in and picked up some extra units to add to my quite large now High Elf army there were gasps and nerd tirades about why I was playing Fantasy (a game i've always loved, I started in 4th ed with High Elves and Wood Elves, i've never enjoyed playing so much as I do with these two armies every game is more fun than any other game I play even a really good 3000pt game of 40k (not apocalypse just using FoC) to which I just climed on the middle gaming table and moved everyone that played what system into a separate corner, friends were everywhere as they couldnt decide there favorite system, so I now say, do you really want to alienate this many people just because of what system they play, grow up dudes. Paid for my things and left.

In both cases and in all cases where fanboys are involved it devolves to an I'm Rubber, Your Glue scenario, I've found their is a secret third option in this argument its called a flamethrower it works quite nicely on both rubber and glue.

@Deadshane - Prehaps try posting an announcement on the forum since your a MOD, stating that its great that people have opinions of there own etc etc and favorite gaming systems, however some of the recent bashing and stifling of other peoples hobby that is not their personal choice and the way it is being put across is against forum rules and action will be taken on people consistently breaking rules laid down by the Admin team of the site?

They might not listen to reason, but hey least you can say you tried dude.

Augustus wrote:

Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer.--> That's an opinion even though the games are so dissimilar as someone already pointed out.

It's an opinion, Orly? Explain the red and Gold berzerkers in PP then

Skorn and Khorne?

So they're totally different...? That was a shameless copy. I was going to wait for the release of their totally unique green plague guys, you know, Snurgle. But it hasn't come out yet...

Of course the underdogs need to re-assure each other.--> Isn't that what this thread is all about

Of course it is! I don't care how people spend their freetime or what's on other forums. I thought it would be fun to make Deadshane's case, a little more, dramaticly! Come on this is Dakka! The fortress of 40k! Do I think GW>PP, obviously, is it really? Who cares.

Good luck whatever you choose.

Anyway.

True story.

They let me teach an honors English class of freshman students. So they were two kinds of
awkward. One, they were freshmen. Two, they were the nerds. There were two lazy kids
in the class. One of them included squirrels in every essay somehow, and the other one
tried to piss off every one in the room with annoying antics, even the nice kids.

Annoying boy revelled in their hate. Even kids who were nice to him were driven away
deliberately as he wanted nothing but negative attention.

Finally squirrel boy and annoying boy got into a fight in my classroom. I looked up and it
was a slapfight. Annoying boy turned to run out of the room and squirrel boy went and
did this behind annoying boy:



I started laughing.

"NERDS, sit down!"

They never fought again.

Squirrel boy (who's in college) still denies that the incident ever happened.

Out of curiosity are we talking about the Atlantis Comics on Little Creek?

keezus wrote:

generalgrog wrote:I do remember one of the local WM players calling GW "The Great Satan" at one point.

Was it by any chance during 4th edition?

IMO, 4th in my mind, has been the gakkiest edition to date. 5th is a huge improvement. I still do not understand why they do not provide a "black book" soft reset for all races at the start of every edition. It would fix a lot of problems, such as Landraiders, identically named weapons having different stats in different codecies, orphan armies from 2 editions ago, and basically alow a rebalancing of points to counter shifts introduced by introduction of new core mechanics such as running.

-Sigh-

i think that if gw puts out a new edition, they should have all the codex's for each army come out at the same time, then have model updates after that. make things alot less stressfull for thier customers, and the customer is always right, nes pa?

lord marcus wrote:

keezus wrote:

generalgrog wrote:I do remember one of the local WM players calling GW "The Great Satan" at one point.

Was it by any chance during 4th edition?

IMO, 4th in my mind, has been the gakkiest edition to date. 5th is a huge improvement. I still do not understand why they do not provide a "black book" soft reset for all races at the start of every edition. It would fix a lot of problems, such as Landraiders, identically named weapons having different stats in different codecies, orphan armies from 2 editions ago, and basically alow a rebalancing of points to counter shifts introduced by introduction of new core mechanics such as running.

-Sigh-

i think that if gw puts out a new edition, they should have all the codex's for each army come out at the same time, then have model updates after that. make things alot less stressfull for thier customers, and the customer is always right, nes pa?

this would be ideal, and i agree completely, but it qould slow down the cogs alot...

i think they should have a rota of some sorts, instead of updating the most popular armys all the time(money making move) they should do something for the game and update whats oldest unless its completely fine(im looking at the DE book here.... its just funky and a bit out dated, surprisingly still works though)

but then again its there company, there game, whay can do what the hell they want realy... yeah theyll drive away some people possably by being stupid(bad moves) but they will allways have some people who like it, and they count on the "new turn over"(not most of us, but the people who stay for about 18 months then forget about it and leave).

Given that WMH v.2 isn't even out yet, it's hard to say whether they've got things right.

BRIAN: Brothers! Brothers! We should be struggling together!

FRANCIS: We are! Ohh.

BRIAN: We mustn't fight each other! Surely we should be united against the common enemy!

EVERYONE: The Judean People's Front?!

BRIAN: No, no! The Romans!

EVERYONE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

FRANCIS: Yeah. He's right.

I've never played any of PP stuff. I've played Battletech, and 40k. Here in dayton as with eveywhere else we have the elitist snobs who won't give you the time of day if you're not into their game. Not too long ago it was 40k, now it's PP.

It doesn't matter. What does matter is when I go into my FLGS I get treated well by the staff there and they make sure that everyone treats everyone well. Those that don't get warned and if needed booted.

Why? Because they understand that to make money they have to have a store where all gamers feel welcome. If I were the owner of this store I would have a long PM with all the offending players/posters and let it be known that if they contribute to an unwelcome environment towards any other gamers that they would be unwelcome as well.

Simple as that. It doesn't matter who's right it just matters that there is a FLGS to go to and play at unbothered.

Well put Usdi!

If you think you get pissed on for playing 40K compared to PP, you should try playing LOTR

As a long time tournament 40k (7 years I guess?) player who switched to PP games and sold all of my 40k over the past 6 months, I will say that at first the desire to trounce on GW was really high.
-You want to justify the decision you've made to others, and it's easy to come off strong when doing so basically equates to hating on something that other people enjoy.
-You want to convince your friends to join you, which usually means getting them to stop doing something else. Again, easy to come off strong.
-GW just keeps rolling out ammunition to draw tourney-gamer's ire. I complained about it plenty when I was playing the game, and the logical resolution for that is always: 'Well if you don't like it, vote with your dollar'. So when I see more news that I would hate if I were still a 40k player, it's tough to not get high-and-mighty about it. I've voted with my dollar, but it's not necessarily easy for people to leave it at that. Complaining about GW is practically a hobby in itself, so while you may stop playing 40k or Fantasy - you might not give up on the Complaining about GW aspect of it.

Anyways, PP fanboy here. Enjoy your games no matter who makes them. If your locals causing issues are of sufficient maturity, asking them why they feel the need to hate on something that someone else enjoys may be enough to shut them up. Or at least start a dialogue that leads to shutting them up.

Otherwise, follow the PP advice and sockjack them (you fill a sock with the largest pewter minis you can find and beat them about the face and shoulders).

Moz wrote:
Otherwise, follow the PP advice and sockjack them (you fill a sock with the largest pewter minis you can find and beat them about the face and shoulders).

Or you can call it a code red, likes it's been known as for decades.

I've heard that as military jargon before, but never as a gaming term. Besides, if all your models are plastic... (I kid I kid!)

Those 4th edition goblin spearmen, if left on a chair, can be a nasty nerd-rage deterant too.

Shane you need to find another store. A lot of dicks play there.

G

Moz wrote:I've heard that as military jargon before, but never as a gaming term. Besides, if all your models are plastic... (I kid I kid!)

You just need a bigger sock. or more socks..

Wot? "Sockjack?"

I fink yoo meen a Dredsock.

Dem Pivateer gits are tryin ta take da orkz wurds! An we need dem wurds fer talkin!

PP has jackholes who play their game and are naught but fanbois who feel the need the diss everyone else's game to make their self-esteem issues go away.

GW has jackholes who play their game and are naught but fanbois who feel the need the diss everyone else's game to make their self-esteem issues go away.

White Wolf has jackholes who play their game and are naught but fanbois who feel the need the diss everyone else's game to make their self-esteem issues go away.

Hell, even BattleTech has jackholes who play their game and are naught but fanbois who feel the need the diss everyone else's game to make their self-esteem issues go away.



The problem isn't the game - there's stuff to like and dislike about every game company. The problem is bad people with self-esteem issues and annoying attitudes. And they're everywhere, not just gaming. Ford or Honda? 3e D&D or 4e D&D? Paper or plastic? Red Sox or Yankees? Democrat or Republican? Black makeup on the right side of your face or the left side of your face (if you get this one, good for you!)?

People complain pointlessly about EVERYTHING. You're just going to have to get over it, I'm afraid - or find a desert island of your very own.

Now that makes me madder than donkey-cave fanboys do...they stole the dreadsock. It's a dreadsock, cut out this "sockjack" nonsense and come up with your own word.

Da Boss wrote:If you think you get pissed on for playing 40K compared to PP, you should try playing LOTR

Hobbit Lover!!!!!!

If you think the GW vs PP arguments are bad you should hang around some Napoleonics boards for a bit.

People like to segregate themselves. It's just a part of us. We do it because the only way for there to be an "us" is for there to also be a "them." There's no sense in joining a group that allows everyone in, how does that make you special? You have to exclude someone to be a part of something.

People do this from everything from major political parties, to religion, to race, to gaming. I mean, if you think about it, disliking someone because they enjoy a different board game than you actually makes a lot more sense than disliking someone because they have a different skin color than you. At least you can choose your board game.

As for PP versus GW, GW is just the big kid on the block. It's cool to be the "underdog." That's the feeling I've gotten from PP players who think they're superior in some way, anyway. Hell, just read page 5 of their first rulebook. You know they're talking about GW there. The company promotes that attitude, and I don't really blame them; it sells.

Swordguy wrote:Black makeup on the right side of your face or the left side of your face (if you get this one, good for you!)

Original Star Trek!

"You half black!"

"You half white!"

*fight scene*

This is some regular East Coast/West Coast gak up in here. Well, if Biggie and Pac never left their mum's basement. We all know how that one ended, let's learn from past mistakes. Spread love not hate.

You got the beef, I got the gravy.

Biggie was better though.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:PP is notably marred by it's rather rabid fanbois. You state anything even remotely negative, or even not entirely positive, and they pounce on you, seemingly telling others just so their dissenting voice drowns out your own, despite how clear it was the original statement was just your own opinion.


Now why they decide to rag on GW so much, I honestly don't know. They aren't cheaper, the game isn't a 40k equivalent (if anything, it's like a dumbed down Adeptus Titanicus*), and as you said, Steampunk is far from being everyones taste (I cannot stand it myself. Just seems so.....dull).

I've got nothing against PP. I do feel their fluff is somewhat lacking (at least what I've read of it) and that the games have a fundamental lack of variety to hold me, but I wouldn't say the games themselves are necessarily inferior to any other.

I used to play it for a short time. Collected a Khador force, kept getting my head kicked in off more experienced players (who refused to teach me the tricks. Tossers) and due to this, I found my interest waning very, very quickly. Plus, the Jacks are to my mind, less than inspiring after a while. I think it's the teeny tiny legs that stop me really liking them.

And I genuinely prefer Warhammer Fantasy. I like the models. I like the background. I like the mechanics. Add in I have a pool of around, oooh, 15 like minded gamers to play against, and the appeal is easy to see. Now if someone doesn't get on with Fantasy, or prefers another system, this makes neither of us cretins. We simply have different tastes.

But yeah, I run into it all too often.

*I say dumbed down, not because Hordemachine is lacking in detail, more that I have fond, head hurting memories of playing Adeptus Titanicus, and the fun had trying to keep track of the damage done etc. And I feel it's an accurate comparrison because Adeptus Titanicus was mainly about the big stuff, with the little stuff having a mainly support role.

WOW, that sounds just like some GW fanboys I see around here on Daka and other places....perhaps a bit of pot meeting kettle there.

Kanluwen wrote:Privateer's playtesting and QA is no better, imo.
You also cannot compare a company that has maintained 3 or more games for how many years? Versus a company that has run 2 games for barely 5-6 years.

And here we have classic GW fan boy.

Because if you really believe that PP's FAQ and process is no better than GW's....you are just plain ignorant. Their miles apart in terms of support and keeping on top of it. The evidence is fully in the realm of PP's favor.

Maintaining a game a for years is one thing. Actually supporting it with solid playtesting and keeping on top of rules flubs is another. GW has been more in the realm of FAIL in that catagory, given the years of evidence.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:To be fair, I did say similar path, not same.

I quite like the concept of onlnee beta of the rules. Might not work as many people hope (lots of voices, and only so many will be in unison) but it's better than not at all, sure.

It stands a good chance of catching that one breaking combo designers missed. How many times over the years of dakka have the posters said "just give it to us for a week and we'll weed out the errors".

Well, here's that chance with the basic rules.

And while its open testing and you can comment, they dont haveto take your advice. Paizo has been doing something similar with Pathfinder RPG.....

carmachu wrote:
WOW, that sounds just like some GW fanboys I see around here on Daka and other places....perhaps a bit of pot meeting kettle there.

I like to imagine that through all this time, MDG's been meta-ironically fakeposting and trolling the hell out of anyone who isn't a full-blown GW sycophant. For that I applaud him.

stonefox wrote:

carmachu wrote:
WOW, that sounds just like some GW fanboys I see around here on Daka and other places....perhaps a bit of pot meeting kettle there.

I like to imagine that through all this time, MDG's been meta-ironically fakeposting and trolling the hell out of anyone who isn't a full-blown GW sycophant. For that I applaud him.

That's crazy talk.

malfred wrote:Next time they start, hand them a ruler and the bathroom key.

"What's this?"

"So you can measure yourself where we don't have to watch."

Win.

Sidstyler wrote:Now that makes me madder than donkey-cave fanboys do...they stole the dreadsock. It's a dreadsock, cut out this "sockjack" nonsense and come up with your own word.

Umm... how can they steal "dreadsock", when it's based on a massive number of other sock-based weaponry(Nickels, Oranges, etc.) to begin with? It's a similar idea from a similar origin source.

carmachu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Privateer's playtesting and QA is no better, imo.
You also cannot compare a company that has maintained 3 or more games for how many years? Versus a company that has run 2 games for barely 5-6 years.

And here we have classic GW fan boy.

Because if you really believe that PP's FAQ and process is no better than GW's....you are just plain ignorant. Their miles apart in terms of support and keeping on top of it. The evidence is fully in the realm of PP's favor.

Maintaining a game a for years is one thing. Actually supporting it with solid playtesting and keeping on top of rules flubs is another. GW has been more in the realm of FAIL in that catagory, given the years of evidence.

And yet, PP did an absolutely horrendous job working with my FLGS.
They did hardly anything to make sure we kept stock, they did hardly anything to make sure that we got the rulebooks on time, nothing.

And the times I bought any of the warjack starter sets?
Horribly miscast, and they would not replace it for free like GW does for me.

So please, keep calling me a GW fanboy.
I also do Secrets of the Third Reich and Flames of War.
I've also had nothing but good experiences from those three companies.
That's why I actually buy stuff from them, and enjoy their games.
It's also why Privateer hasn't gotten any of my money since Hordes was released.
Now, maybe if you actually gave me some better things than "GW is the realm of FAIL", I'd take you a tad more seriously.

carmachu wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:To be fair, I did say similar path, not same.

I quite like the concept of onlnee beta of the rules. Might not work as many people hope (lots of voices, and only so many will be in unison) but it's better than not at all, sure.

It stands a good chance of catching that one breaking combo designers missed. How many times over the years of dakka have the posters said "just give it to us for a week and we'll weed out the errors".

Well, here's that chance with the basic rules.

And while its open testing and you can comment, they dont haveto take your advice. Paizo has been doing something similar with Pathfinder RPG.....

True enough. Though if I remember what Malfred said in another thread, their beta is less about the stats and abilities of the units in the game, and more about the mechanics, and making sure there are no contradictions, wording is tightened up suitably etc.

And in my own opinion, I can fully see why they are less fussed about the unit based feedback. Just have a shufty around the Interwebs at homebrewed rules for Codecies etc, and 'redux' lists. Usually under pointed, overpowered, and just soulless. Look what happened when GW tried VDR, TDR and the custom gribblies in the old Tyranid Codex. Point largely missed by the denziens of the interweb, who instead decided to simply number crunch to find the most 'win' units etc, and never bothered using the other bits. This clearly shows that (GW ones at least) Gamers are not to be trusted with any kind of open source materials!

Kanluwen wrote:
And yet, PP did an absolutely horrendous job working with my FLGS.
They did hardly anything to make sure we kept stock, they did hardly anything to make sure that we got the rulebooks on time, nothing.

And the times I bought any of the warjack starter sets?
Horribly miscast, and they would not replace it for free like GW does for me.

So please, keep calling me a GW fanboy.
I also do Secrets of the Third Reich and Flames of War.
I've also had nothing but good experiences from those three companies.
That's why I actually buy stuff from them, and enjoy their games.
It's also why Privateer hasn't gotten any of my money since Hordes was released.
Now, maybe if you actually gave me some better things than "GW is the realm of FAIL", I'd take you a tad more seriously.

Your a GW fanboy. *shrug* any other questions.

Without more information on your FLAGS situation, its probably your FLAGS fault, not PP. My nots so friendly LAGS doesnt keep any in stock, but thats their fault, not PP.

You must have not been doing anything right on the miscast, because when I have had a miscast or worse, missing pieces, following the simple instructions got parts mailed out on several occassions.


AS for that last line, are you serious? Do I really need to list the various GW failings from FAQ's to "good enough" rules to the lag of years between codexi, to not allowing online sales-only in the US though, and the rest thats been discussed at length(prince increases at nauseum arent even worth bringing up).

Fanboy indeed sound accurate if you dont remember any of the above discussions. PP isnt perfect by any stretch: I do think warmachine needs an overhaul...but I'm leery of Hordes getting one as its still fairly new.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

True enough. Though if I remember what Malfred said in another thread, their beta is less about the stats and abilities of the units in the game, and more about the mechanics, and making sure there are no contradictions, wording is tightened up suitably etc.

Which even still, is light years ahead of GW checking mechanics and contradictions. Half GW's problems would go away if they would.

And in my own opinion, I can fully see why they are less fussed about the unit based feedback. Just have a shufty around the Interwebs at homebrewed rules for Codecies etc, and 'redux' lists. Usually under pointed, overpowered, and just soulless. Look what happened when GW tried VDR, TDR and the custom gribblies in the old Tyranid Codex. Point largely missed by the denziens of the interweb, who instead decided to simply number crunch to find the most 'win' units etc, and never bothered using the other bits. This clearly shows that (GW ones at least) Gamers are not to be trusted with any kind of open source materials!

Just GW gamers? Bah, you havent seen PP players or RPGer's go at it and do the same thing. Thats a universal thing....

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

And in my own opinion, I can fully see why they are less fussed about the unit based feedback. Just have a shufty around the Interwebs at homebrewed rules for Codecies etc, and 'redux' lists. Usually under pointed, overpowered, and just soulless. Look what happened when GW tried VDR, TDR and the custom gribblies in the old Tyranid Codex. Point largely missed by the denziens of the interweb, who instead decided to simply number crunch to find the most 'win' units etc, and never bothered using the other bits. This clearly shows that (GW ones at least) Gamers are not to be trusted with any kind of open source materials!

GW really are in a loose/loose situation here. If GW present a list or rule set that's quite free and open and relies on the common sense, maturity and imagination of the players to theme their list accordingly without being micro manged by the list, then it gets abused. Gamers then complain and claim its all GW's fault for allowing these cheesy lists.

So GW release a much tighter list with restrictions heavily in place. Cue more web based moaning that GW is spoon feeding the gamers or sapping the soul of the list.

So GW goes back to being more open and the cycle continues until we all die.

Sorry to sound like and old Fart here but when I started Gaming I used to play allot of Historical games down at a club. We didn't used points based lists, yep that right none at all. We chose a scenario and worked out forces accordingly in advance, and we did so in accordance with the background of the period/campaign/scenario. There were no complaints of balance or cheesiness. People took 80% line troops because that's what armies historically consisted of. No one would have dreamed of using a force consisting entirely of Tiger tanks or French Imperial Guard It just didn't occur to us.

In list based games however respect for the natural composition of armies just goes out of the window to be replaced with 'what will the list allow me to get away with'. Sad as it sounds I think 'list based' gaming really has been a double edged sword for table top gaming in general. Not just GW.

Put it this way. If the battle of Waterloo were a game of Warhammer it would likely consist of 2 units of Line Infantry with the rest of the points maxed out on Old Guard Grenadiers, 12 Pdr Cannons and Currasiers vs 2 units of Line Infantry with the rest of the points maxed out on Riflemen, Coldstream Guard Units and Scots Grey Cavalry.

carmachu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And yet, PP did an absolutely horrendous job working with my FLGS.
They did hardly anything to make sure we kept stock, they did hardly anything to make sure that we got the rulebooks on time, nothing.

And the times I bought any of the warjack starter sets?
Horribly miscast, and they would not replace it for free like GW does for me.

So please, keep calling me a GW fanboy.
I also do Secrets of the Third Reich and Flames of War.
I've also had nothing but good experiences from those three companies.
That's why I actually buy stuff from them, and enjoy their games.
It's also why Privateer hasn't gotten any of my money since Hordes was released.
Now, maybe if you actually gave me some better things than "GW is the realm of FAIL", I'd take you a tad more seriously.

Your a GW fanboy. *shrug* any other questions.

Without more information on your FLAGS situation, its probably your FLAGS fault, not PP. My nots so friendly LAGS doesnt keep any in stock, but thats their fault, not PP.

You must have not been doing anything right on the miscast, because when I have had a miscast or worse, missing pieces, following the simple instructions got parts mailed out on several occassions.


AS for that last line, are you serious? Do I really need to list the various GW failings from FAQ's to "good enough" rules to the lag of years between codexi, to not allowing online sales-only in the US though, and the rest thats been discussed at length(prince increases at nauseum arent even worth bringing up).

Fanboy indeed sound accurate if you dont remember any of the above discussions. PP isnt perfect by any stretch: I do think warmachine needs an overhaul...but I'm leery of Hordes getting one as its still fairly new.

Are you really going to bring up the discontinuation of online sales only stores into this? Really?
Gee, I wonder why they would have done that. Maybe the massive amounts of stores that were basing themselves in the US and selling things dirt-cheap with no overhead, compared to FLGSes that stocked and sold at list price with having to maintain an actual brick+mortar storefront.
The price increases? Yeah, they're annoying. But GW also puts out far, far more product a year than PP does. They also have done a fairly good job making sure that most codex options are fairly accessible, either through them or FW.
How long did it take for the Cygnarian Rangers to come out for Superiority?

Yeah, GW can futz it up. But every time they'd have a chance to screw the pooch when I've dealt with them, they've come out ahead.
I gave Privateer a chance. And they royally screwed it.

Both systems are fine, I don't really see the problem

If you don't like the system, that's great. I love both PP and GW.

Cryonicleech wrote:Both systems are fine, I don't really see the problem

If you don't like the system, that's great. I love both PP and GW.

'
Great just what we need....a pacifist.

* yawns & falls back into a thread induced stupor *

Coming to a thread near you soon: Oranges and apples. Which are better? YOU DECIDE!

Greebynog wrote:Coming to a thread near you soon: Oranges and apples. Which are better? YOU DECIDE!

Bananas.

Don your asbestos suits early, boys an girls!

Seeing this thread i had no idea if OP was just trolling or he was actually seriouse so i never bothered to say anything.

But ya.... both sides will praise what they play and badmouth the other. Both guilty , you are all the same!

So yes oranges and apples, this thread is pointless.

... honest to god, as im typing right now, i can hear the raccoon calling outside my window.

... honest to god, as im typing right now, i can hear the raccoon calling outside my window.

LunaHound, I think you need to lay off the hash a bit.

You're all anime fan losers. This topic needs to die. This is manufactured drama and it's absolutely meaningless.

Was that harsh enough? The apples and oranges thing didn't seem to kill it.

Ouchies, ShumaGorath just summed it up!

Kanluwen wrote:

Are you really going to bring up the discontinuation of online sales only stores into this? Really?
Gee, I wonder why they would have done that. Maybe the massive amounts of stores that were basing themselves in the US and selling things dirt-cheap with no overhead, compared to FLGSes that stocked and sold at list price with having to maintain an actual brick+mortar storefront.

If thats the case, why only the US then? You realize I STILl can order online right? Why on earth would I want to support a FLAGS? They suck ass around here, and not worth pissing on if the building was on fire. GW can do what it wants, but they took a hit for it that they had to recover from.

SO yes, yes I am. It pissed on the customer base. Good luck with that.

The price increases? Yeah, they're annoying. But GW also puts out far, far more product a year than PP does. They also have done a fairly good job making sure that most codex options are fairly accessible, either through them or FW.
How long did it take for the Cygnarian Rangers to come out for Superiority?

Quite a while actually. But if you actually PAID attention to PP, they have a roll out for models when their book hits, and some models? If their at the end of the roll out take a while. I know I've waited a long while for certain merc or skorne units.

Accessable? Please. Some units took forever to get models with GW. Further, I seem to notice that GW is taking up the PP roll out model instead of folks standing around for years with nothing for their armies....

What if Space Marines fought Khador FTW? What would all the PP fanbois say then?

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:What if Space Marines fought Khador FTW? What would all the PP fanbois say then?

G

As much as I like Warmachine, Fluff Space Marines vs. Khador would most likely
result in a Khador loss. I mean, the Iron Kingdoms doesn't really have the capacity
to deal with an orbital bombardment.

I'd say the weight of one of Khador's Juggernauts could easily crush a plastic marine and maybe even collapse a dreadnought.

stonefox wrote:I'd say the weight of one of Khador's Juggernauts could easily crush a plastic marine and maybe even collapse a dreadnought.

Only if that Khador Jug was properly pinned, otherwise, it would just crumble on the table before it could do anything.. Oh, and it's needs to be properly balanced so it doesn't tip over .....

Green Blow Fly wrote:What if Space Marines fought Khador FTW? What would all the PP fanbois say then?

I will answer this for LOLZ

Space Marines would be hitting Khador models on a 3+ in shooting, and fare much worse in melee as most Khador models have equivalent WS, MAT4+, but as they have no toughness stat, you'd be forced to treat them as vehicles. Even Winterguard have ARM13, meaning that you'd need at least S8 to damage them. Anything with ARM 20 or higher is invincible to the highest possible armor penetration roll in the marine army (Multimelta+ ). OTOH, Khador models would auto-hit, as Space Marine models don't have a defense stat. Pretty much every weapon would easily exceed the Space Marine's ARM3 (and cause instant-kill), but the Marines would then get a 3+ save and/or any applicable invulnerable save.

two_heads_talking wrote:

stonefox wrote:I'd say the weight of one of Khador's Juggernauts could easily crush a plastic marine and maybe even collapse a dreadnought.

Only if that Khador Jug was properly pinned, otherwise, it would just crumble on the table before it could do anything.. Oh, and it's needs to be properly balanced so it doesn't tip over .....

See it's like a real battle with weaknesses and everything! I wonder why some people even bother to play with rules since you could effectively do the same thing by hurling them at each other.

stonefox wrote:
See it's like a real battle with weaknesses and everything! I wonder why some people even bother to play with rules since you could effectively do the same thing by hurling them at each other.

I tend to agree.. There used to be a Staff member at the Springfield store who was notorious for throwing stuff if he started losing..

ShumaGorath wrote:You're all anime fan losers. This topic needs to die. This is manufactured drama and it's absolutely meaningless.

I agree with this. It's essentially a fight where both sides compete on who gets to make a bigger and more obnoxious ass of themselves. And guess what, this thread is hull of "winners".

stonefox wrote:
See it's like a real battle with weaknesses and everything! I wonder why some people even bother to play with rules since you could effectively do the same thing by hurling them at each other.

Hey don't be knocking Apocalypse.

ShumaGorath wrote:You're all anime fan losers.

Was that harsh enough?

Probably not, but it's getting pretty offensive.

Take that all you wool coated smooth talkers !!!

G

Osbad...is that piccie not from the old NikNak adverts?