Warning: The following post makes use of logic and deduction. If the use of Logic applied to the background of Warhammer 40k gives you a brain aneurysm from the mere thought, please step away now.

After reading though a couple of the older threads on Dakka and others about the size of Great Companies, I've noticed a trend of people assuming that they are much larger than a Codex Company and that the Space Wolves Great Companies range anywhere from 600 marines to 6,000 marines.

And just to get this out of the way now, if this all seems familiar, it is. This thread is a huge rewrite of a thread I posted a while back on Warseer, so if you read that quite a bit here might seem similar too.

Firstly I want to point out that I do understand where the idea of a huge Space Wolves legion comes from. Space Wolves are to many the most reminiscent of the pre-heresy Legions, who along with the Salamanders and Iron hands seem to, for lack of a better analogy, use the Codex Astrates as highly absorbent loo roll. And after all, if the Black Templars can have so many, why cant the Wolves (Firstly the Black Templars just recruit from whatever worlds they come across, and second they are a bunch of Fanatical Emperor Worshipping Loyalists, not horrible Mutated wolves who fire at nosy Inquisitors ships).

Now being a Long time Space Wolf fan and player (I have been playing 40k and Space Wolves since the beginning of 3rd edition, and had been a big fluff fan in the dying throes of 2nd) I admit I did submit to that school of thought, imagining the Sons of Russ massing in their thousands to defend mankind from whatever is next in line for a good kick in the Bawlz.

However, in the past year or so I have a bit of a rethink in that regard. Perhaps being older and wiser I can look back with a slightly more objective eye. And the more I thought about it, the more such large companies didn't make the slightest bit of sense, especially if one looked at the big picture compared to Codex Marines.

What now follows is a systematic approach to a number of issues that I have considered with regards to the Space Wolves and the Size of a Great Company (and by extension the chapter). For the purpose of comparison and to help put my arguments into context, I shall be using the oh so perfect Ultramarines as an example of a typical codex chapter. While not strictly true, there is more information about them than anyone else, and for this discussion they fit the bill close enough.

So, to as a special treat for all of you, I give you this monster as my 1,000th post!

Premise:
Space Wolf Great companies are, in fact, not larger than a Codex company and may in fact be slightly smaller than one, similar in the way the Salamanders have fewer marines than most codex chapters.

What we know about Codex Chapters:
According to the Codex Astrates, as laid down by Roboute Guilliman,a chapter of the Adeptus Astartes consists of 10 Companies, (A veteran Company, Four Battle Companies, Two Tactical Companies, One Assault Company, One Devastator Company and a Scout Company), with a Space Marine Captain, Apothecary, Company Standard and Chaplain for each company.

Each Company (with the exception of the scout company) at full strength consist of 10 Squads of 10 Marines, along with the Command Staff for that Company.
It is clear from that alone that a fully operational Chapter that never takes casualties, consists of a fair bit more than 1000 Marines. The best research on the matter I have found, a wonderful article called “The Thousand Marine Myth”, puts the estimate at at least 1500 Astartes. As such, I shall be using the concept of a 1,500 man Full strength chapter as the standard in this thread.

For ease of reading I have broken up my “evidence” as such into separate points. Each point will consist of a title, a full description and a short summery at the end.

Point #1: Homeworlds
The Ultramarines hail from the Ultramar sector, which has a collection of no less than 8 star systems that the Ultramarines call home. This collection of planets is regarded as something of a Sparking Diamond in the black ocean of shittyness that is the Imperium. Each is self sufficient and prosperous, despite the wide range of environments they contain. The population enjoy a level of comfort, education and prosperity unlike anywhere else in the Imperium. The Towering Spires of Necromunda or the harsh Hives of Armageddon have no place here.

This is not to say they are all fat internet nerds playing intergalactic chess. Oh no. With perhaps the exception of Cadia, Ultramar is the most highly militarised sector of the Imperium. The vast majority of the population are enlisted within each planets PDF, each able and willing to join the Imperial Guard whenever the need arises.
So, Billions and Billions of well developed, educated and highly trained adolescents just ripe for the picking.

And then we have Fenris. Fenris is akin to Ultramar in the fact that they are Planets. Past that, there are very few similarities. For those who may not know, while the Ultramar system is technologically advanced, Fenris is a feral world. It's population have a technology level akin to that of the Vikings in the years 800 CE – 1000 CE. Every day is a struggle for survival.

Fenris is a Land of extremes. It consists mostly of a single huge ocean, with a single continent upon the planets' upper pole known as Asaheim (which only the Space Wolves and a few “in the know” clans live), while the planet spanning ocean is dotted with thousands of Volcanic Islands (where all the other poor sods live). Its highly elliptical orbit roughly the length of 2 Standard Terran years. This long orbit results in high extremes of temperature in Summer and Winter.

A Fenrisan winter is cold and harsh. So cold in fact that large swathes of ocean are known to freeze over. The summers aren't much better. Not only does the crust strain under the additional heat and gravity caused by it being so much closer to its sun, it also passes through an asteroid belt, causing huge meteors to fall from the sky, causing tsunami and earthquakes. This as expected, kind of messes up the whole “lets live on the volcanic island that provide the only land we can live on” lifestyle, so the natives ride it out, praying their little island doesn't disappear.

As you would expect, that rarely happens. Once things calm down a bit, those Fenrisans who lost their homes (i.e. All of them) go off in search of new living space. Sadly, others want it too, leading to brutal clan wars over the vital land.

And if that wasn't bad enough, if you are deemed unworthy at birth, they just drown you. Even if you do survive the brutal winters and summers, from the age of about 6 or 7 (12-14 Terran years) you are considered to be a man, and go off to slaughter others when summer comes around.
Sounds utterly Delightful.

In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: Recruit from a cluster of well populated, advanced worlds with a potential recruitment Pool of hundreds of billions.

Space Wolves: Recruit from a Single world with a population conceivability in the tens of millions, who are at a Viking Era technology level.

Point #2: Selection Criteria
Sadly there is little to go on regarding the actual practices of how the Ultramarines select their recruits. Do they have recruitment drives? Do they go around rounding up random teenagers? I have not been able to find anything concrete. However, one can assume that because of the civilised nature of the Ultramar worlds, just randomly kidnapping kids would be a bit off, especially since “Throughout Ultramar proud citizens point to public statues of famous Ultramarines who were born to local families. Amongst the older aristocratic dynasties it is a matter of considerable esteem to provide recruits for the Space Marines.”
From that sentence I can sort of see that each person can apply to be tested to see if they are compatible for Astartes training and the most compatible are taken of their own free will.
Apologies for the lack of information on this point as I could not find anything more detailed.

The selection criteria for Fenrisans however is detailed much more graphically.

After each summer, during the period of what one could call Autumn, the Fenrisans take to the seas in search of new islands to live on. This is a dangerous journey, as being in the middle of a huge Ocean filled with whales the size of skyscrapers, Sea Dragons and Krakan is hardly a stay in the Ritz. It is imperative that each clan find land as soon as possible and take it. Even if someone else is there already.

These newly formed island are generally small, barely capable of housing one clan, let alone two. As such, when one clan make landfall on a claimed island, more often than not a bloody battle will ensue, one of pure barbarian rage as each man fights for his clan. It is these battles that the Wolf Priests of the Space Wolves watch upon from a distance, sometimes going so far as to make themselves a known presence. Native Fenrisans are kept ignorant of the Space Wolves true identity, instead being mythical “Warriors from the Gods” who take those who prove themselves in battle to become Warriors of Russ, who has achieved a sort of collective god-like mythical status for Fenrisans.

These Wolf Priests watch the battle, and during/after goes to those who fell in battle, for only those with the courage to meet death are worthy for the gods (although rarely select those few who have slaughtered so many of the enemy there are none left to kill him), bringing them back from the brink of death with Arcane Technologies, they bring these half dead blokes back to the Asaheim for their induction to the Space Wolves (detailed later on)

In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: Select via a rigorous screening from people who volunteer.

Space Wolves: Select whoever had enough balls to have otherwise fatal wounds in barbarian battle.

Point #3: Geneseed
As much a Point of argument as any, the Geneseed for the Ultramarines is, without a doubt, one of the most stable there is. Only the Dark Angels is comparable, but even then its more temperamental (so I have heard) and the High Lords trust the Dark Angels as much as we all trust that out of luck Nigerian Prince. It is a testament of the geneseed that it is still complete and able to support so many different initiate genetic profiles even after 10,000 years of use, hasn't mutated much, and is all in all very versatile.
Just some of the reasons why 90% of all Space Marines in M41 are of Ultramarine decent (the reason in M31 being they did bugger al during the Heresy)

Space Wolves on the other hand, have a highly mutated and unstable geneseed, prone to all sorts of dodgyness and instability. The Lengthening of the canine teeth with age as well as premature greying of the hair are two benign side affects of this, with the tendency to turn into a bestial hairy wolf-man a less than benign one.
But even then, its different for every Wolf. Many examples have been detailed of some Space Wolves “ageing” faster than others, with one Wolf Lord looking older than 700 year old Logan Grimnar despite being half that age, and one being almost as old as the Great Wolf himself but still having bright orange hair.

Which brings me to one of the two major advantages I can see that the Space Wolf Geneseed has. The first is Longevity. While it's true we haven't heard many tales of Ultramarines being so old, that might be because they lose their “edge” a lot faster so are killed in battle before it becomes noticeable. I mean, Logan is one of the oldest Marines there are, second to perhaps Dante (not including freak cases like Chaos Marines, Marines Stuck in the Warp or held in stasis). At 700 years old, he's hardly in the Prime of his life, but shows no signs of being anything but at peak efficiency. Contrast this to the Ultramarines, where Cassius, at a “mere” 400 years old is one of the oldest, most venerable Marines.

The second advantage is that of the Canis Helix. While a form of this implant exists for all marines regardless of Genetic heritage (this is in fact the first Implant an aspirant receives, for without it no other organs will work), the Space Wolves one has mutated significantly and is the cause of their possible change into Wulfen. However, in return it has given the Space Wolves a preternatural resistance to the lure of Chaos. Not much is known about the exact workings, but it is known that it is because of the Canis Helix very few Wolves fall to Chaos completely (After all, the 13th Company Seem to be doing aright after 10,000 years in the Eye of Terror. They may be mutated a little, but they certainly are not Chaos.)

Of course none of that helps when you get crazy Inquistors and most of the Ecclesiacity wanting to string them up for it.

Ultramarines: Stable, uncorrupted and resilient Geneseed

Space Wolves: Utterly broken and corrupted, but with a few choice benefits to compensate.

Point #4: Implantation Rituals
From what little has been written about it, I can say that most certainly the Ultramarines have had the implantations ritualised with a lot of needless blessing and rubbish, but it is done in a methodical and stable way, each initiate having each organ implanted safely and monitored to make sure they survive the transformation. Between implantations they are subject to hypnotherapy, chemotherapy and basic training for when they become Scouts (since we know it takes a few years to safely put all the implants in) so that no time is wasted in their training, all the while being monitored by the Apothecaries for any sign of rejection. After all, no point in wasting all that investment only for him to die of Kidney Failure after a week.

The Space Wolves however, go the opposite route. After spending a few Months training as normal humans on the slopes of Asaheim, which many do not survive anyway, they are implanted with the Canis Helix, drink a chemical mixture to kick start the organ into activity, and are given a huge feast of meat and ale.
They then wake up to find themselves being kicked out of a Thunderhawk by a Wolf Priest with nothing but a thin tunic and stone knife, thousands of miles from the Fang (easily noticeable since its the largest mountain on Fenris, so high its peak is actually in orbit) and told “Walk Back or die”.

Yeah... Charming.

So, they begin this journey back, across terrain that should kill any moral man. Not only are they in such hostile terrain, their bodies are being racked by the transformations the Canis Helix brings. Those who fail to find meat on the barren slopes perish. Those who are too weak to fight off the multitude of predators upon the slopes, also perish. Those who are weak of spirit succumb to the Wolf Within, turning into the beasts known as wulfen, Mad raving Beasts who do not live very long before dying. Those who do manage to somehow survive are taken and nursed back to health, before having the same routine of hypnotherapy and training that Ultramarine Initiates have before being stuck in some Power Armour.

In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: While ritualistic and of course harsh, the transition from human to neophyte is structured and monitored, making sure each organ implant done is pure and stable.

Space Wolves: The final test before becoming a Blood Claw involves them having the Canis Helix alone implanted, being dumped thousands of miles away from The Fang pretty much naked except for a stone knife, and told to walk back, all the while being mutated by the Canis Helix with a very real possibility of either just dying outright or mutating into a Wulfen.

Point #5: Training Techniques
For Ultramarines, the training process is thankfully well detailed. Aspirants, having completed their implantations and other such training, are given a suit of Carapace armour and assigned to a scout squad. Each Scout Squad is lead by a full Brother-Marine, who has been entrusted with passing the knowledge of centuries of warfare to the new initiates. In this way the chapters veterans pass their knowledge to the next generation of Marines. In order to try and keep them “safe” (and I use the term loosely) a Scout Squads job is that of Infiltration, reconnaissance and surgically striking lightly armoured targets, or providing intelligence for the remainder of the strike force , as well as carrying beacons so that their fellow brothers might come down to the heart of the enemy Safely (Teleport Homers and Locator Beacons). It is hoped that in this way each scout has the time to allow their transformation to stabilise and mellow out before being promoted to the 9th Company for Heavy Weapons Training.

Space Wolves again take the utter opposite approach. Upon the implantation of the Black Carapace, they stick the new Blood Claws in Power Armour, point them at some enemies and shout “fetch”. Ok that's perhaps a little harsh but the Space Wolves don't mess about, pushing the new Marines into brutal CQC action, all the while attempting to control their heightened senses and emotions caused by the Implantations, as well as fighting the effects of the Canis Helix (it is known for some Space Wolves to spontaneously mutate in to Wulfen under periods of extreme duress).

And while sometimes they may have a veteran Warrior to lead them (Generally a member of the Wolf Guard or sometimes a Grey Hunter or Long Fang who has lost their pack), most of the time they are left to do their own thing, with their knowledge picked up via the hypnotherepy or on the fly in battle.

In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: Scouts given a well rounded training backed up by centuries of experience from those veterans assigned to train the recruits. Formal instruction in the ways of war and their weaponry and ensuring they are solid well rounded warriors once they are deemed ready for Power Armour.

Space Wolves: Shoved into power armour from the get go and, for the most part, told "Bullets come of of here, enemy over there. Go." before the transformations and physical mutations have even slowed down, let alone stopped.

Point #6: Combat Attrition
Ultramarines would, simply by logic, have fewer aspirant deaths than Space Wolves, simply due to their two very different roles. Scouts are off skulking around, picking off targets from long range if engaging anything at all. Not to mention they have the experience of a veteran sergeant behind them telling them that doing ABC leads to gruesome XYZ death.

Blood Claws on the other hand just blindly charge into whatever the enemy of the week is. If they die or are injured, well sucks to be you I got more enemies to kill! If they live, they go off and kill more stuff. Again, a little overgeneralised, but the point I am making is that Blood Claws are much more likely to be in life threatening situations than scouts, and they can only roll 3+ so many times...

Add to that the Space Wolves preference for CQC alltogether (even when as Grey Hunters they excel in short range fire fights before assaulting into CQC) and you can understand that Space Wolves must take more losses than the Ultras.

In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: Low level of attrition, in part due to more formal training and in part due to the nature of a Scouts role, that of infiltration and reconnaissance.

Space Wolves: High levels of attrition, due to the nature of the engagements Blood Claws are used for, brutal CQC and breaching enemy bunkers et al.

Point #7: Unit Assignment
Scout Squads are replenished through new recruits, amalgamated due to combat losses or just outright replaced whenever the need arises. This way a scout squad is rarely under under full strength at any time and can easily gather replacements if necessary. It also allows for members to have training with a multitude of sergeants who may have different strengths and weaknesses (such as being assigned to Tellions squad for sniper training perhaps).

When they become full Battle Brothers the situation is the same, with losses being replaced by marines filtering up from lower Companies. While this allows for a full strength unit at almost all times, it does mean they do not form the bonds of loyalty to each other the Space Wolves do.

Some might be assigned to vehicle crew duty for a period, others might become pilots. Some might even become privy to the secrets of Mars or those with latent powers might join the Librarians. All in all, it is rather fragmented, with each marine being assigned to whatever duty is needed of him.

Blood Claw Packs (or in fact any packs) are formed together at inception and stay together for life. Even their transport Vehicles such as Rhinos or Razorbacks are crewed by members of the same pack (with other Vehicles like Predators and such being manned by Packs who have been reduced to low numbers). The only ways out of a pack are death or assignment to a very few number of select/specialist units. These consist of the Scouts and the Wolf Guard.

The scouts are Space Wolves who do not adapt to the pack mentality, loners etc., as it gives them a greater amount of freedom and space, and puts their abilities to better use (there are reports of some Scouts working for years behind enemy lines isolated from the rest of the Chapter)
The Wolf Guard, the chosen few of the Wolf Lord, who act as his Bodyguard in Battle or lead the Younger Wolves on occasion for the majority of Wolves.

The other way is into one of the Priesthoods. Wolf Priests are selected from the Oldest and Wisest of Long Fangs, many of whom are the sole survivor of their pack. The rune Priests are the Space Wolves historians and saga tellers. They are those who have latent psychic powers, similar to librarians of other chapters. The final one is the Iron Priest, taking the role of the Techmarine in Vanilla Chapters, they are responsible for the maintenance of the Space Wolves vehicles and such.

In each case however, those chosen knows he will never return to his Pack, and his brothers both celebrate and mourn for the loss of their brother. Many Space Wolves are known to refuse to join their Masters wolf Guard, for they feel it would be betraying their pack if they did.

In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: Marines move through companies as dictated by training or by conflict necessity, assigned to squads as needed, and given a general training as they move though the reserve companies (e.g. Heavy Weapons training while in the 9th, CQC training in the 8th and Bike training when in the 6th). While this gives a well rounded training, they do not bond together as well.

Space Wolves: Packs are formed and stay together for life, with combat losses never replaced, though multiple smaller packs may be assigned to work together on a temporary basis. Training moves from Berserk CQC to Calculated Short Range Fire fights and CQC to Heavy Weaponry as a Pack ages together, with those promoted to the Wolf Guard or Scouts (for acts of valour and natural skill respectively) being both congratulated and mourned for. By working together for life each Wolf knows each other as if they were them, leading to much better cohesion and reactions, and a bond that ensures each is indebted to each other a thousand times over.



All of these points add up to my main premise, that a Great Company is actually Smaller than a Codex Company. After all, with the lower requirement rate, higher combat attrition, in addition to their longevity and just being more elite in general, seem to suggest that the Space Wolves can be just as effective as a codex company with fewer marines.
I thereby deduce, with these points being my main "evidence" so to speak, that a Great Company is indeed smaller than a Codex company, perhaps in the scale of 60-80 Marines, with the company of the Great Wolf (Not Logans Personal Company, but a separate company all together) consisting of the Space Wolves Scouts, Priests and Dreadnoughts. Of course that is not to say that a Company couldn't be larger. They might have not taken any permanent combat losses in decades, and have continued to bring in new packs. However, this seems unlikely given the way that Blood Claws are utilised, along with the harsher than normal transformation rituals, Lower recruitment pool, and unstable geneseed, I cannot see this being a common occurrence.

Of course this is all subject to the mystical power known as "The Rule of Cool" which in no uncertain terms allows you to ignore everything I just said and say that the Space Wolves are 12,000 strong and never get scratched.

tldr:
Great Companies Smaller than Codex ones, but Rule of Cool overrides it.

Your most certainly humble servant,
Gwar!

Awww come on. No ones got anything to say?

Criticisms? Adoration? Nothing? :(

It makes too much sense, it makes my head hurt
By sheer defiance of the Ultrasmurfs I have to agree, this is all fine and logically reasoned... but what is in 40k!


"For Russ! For the Wolftime!"

I'll be honest, I didn't read it all.....Why people insist on writing war and piece on something that is PURELY fantasy, is a little worrying.

Anyhow, I think its almost, no, completely IMPOSSIBLE to apply logic to something that is fantasy based. My god, if you only read the actual fluff surrounding WH40K, even the sanctioned writers can't get it right!

Example, Ben Counter in The Hammer of Daemons, at the start of the book, Alaric is "nearly" twice the hieght of a man in power armour, yet towards the middle of the book, he now stands a head taller than a human male!! Ok, at this point he doesn't have his armour on, but come on, does power armour come with a set of MONSTER high heels?

On Topic: Yes, I belive each Great Company is the size of a standard Codex Chapter. I belive that was actually written somewhere, but judging by how quickly WH40K "facts" get changed, who knows where I read that.

Basis for my thoughts, cause thats the way GW wants it to be, maybe Fenris has a high volume of quality aspirants?!? Who knows....and in the end, does it even matter, who in the hell can afford to field a complete Wolf Chapter, whether it be a 1000 men or 12000?

Well I had a full great Company once (back when I thought they were hueg) but it all got burnt to a cinder.
Insurance covered it but I lost the heart, so I've only just started rebuilding them

I've always figured that a Great Company is a little larger than a Codex company, but not significantly. Going by the old '100 marine company', I would have guessed a SW great company is typically around 150 marines. While SWs probably take higher casualty rates, their methods of recruitment and training also results in a faster replenishment rate. And while Blood Claws are 'new' marines, they're already incredibliy tough - having grown up on an unforgiving world and having probably fought in more battles before becoming an aspirant than an Ultramarine fights in while a scout.

So, if a Codex Company is really about 150 marines, I'd say a Great Company is probably around 200 SWs, on average. But, the possibility of losses and recruiting letting that number swing from about 50 to 400 SWs at any time.

Most SWs die in battle as a Bloodclaw.

I wrote this a year or so ago and posted it on B&C. Here's my take on how Russ argued with Guilliman about breaking up the Legion.

Guiliman: “Russ, we need to talk about breaking up your Legion.”
Russ: “What!?! There’s no way I’m doing that. We’re all proud Fenrisians.”
G: “Well, I want each chapter to be about 1,000 men strong. Look at me, I have like 30 or 40 chapters coming from my Legion. Now, I know that you have 13 great companies….”
“12.”
“I thought it was 13.”
“Well, it was, but the 13th chased that heretic Magnus from prospero and into the warp.”
“Hmm. Well, I guess those shouldn’t count then. So, how many marines are in your Legion?”
“I don’t know.”
“What do you mean you don’t know?”
“Hey, we use runes and oral histories. We’re a society that has few literate people. You’re giving me a hard time about numbers? I’m lucky to have a couple guys in each pack that can count past 10 without taking off their boots.”
“Well, okay, I guess. How many do you think you have? I’ve written down in this tome that a chapter should be split into 10 companies and each company should have about 100 men. That should be 60 tactical marines, 20 assault marines, and 20 devastators.”
“Eh, I’d guess we’re about 100 a company.”
“That sounds small. By my estimates, you should have roughly 100 grey hunters, 60 blood claws, 20 long fangs, another 20 grey hunters as vehicle drivers, and 20 wolf guard.”
“You can’t count the blood claws. They’re whelps, they’re barely marines. You can’t count them. There, see, about 100.”
“No, it’s more like 200.”
“Do your 100 men in a chapter include the commander or vehicle drivers?”
“Well, no, So 101, 111 – well, 112 including the command vehicle. And the command squad is another 9. Well, okay, it’s more like 121.”
“So, take out my drivers and the wolf guard – they’re just like your command squad.”
“The Blood Claws are novices like a chapter’s scouts, and the scouts count towards the 1,000 man limit. And there’s a lot more of your drivers and command squad…..”
“Take ‘em out, you didn’t count them. Take them and the blood claws out, they don’t count either. See, not it’s just 120 guys. That’s about 100.”
“No, no, the companies are still too large. And there’s too many of them, there’s 12.”
“No, they’re not too big or too many. They’re fine. I can’t split up the packs, the boys won’t tolerate it. Then what do I do? Kill one of them for refusing to leave his pack?”
“Well, no, I guess not. But, I….I….oh, to hell with it, I give up. Fine, leave it alone.”

And that is the story of how our primarch LeMan Russ outwitted Roboute Guilliman and kept most of his chapter intact.

But then again, a Limp Noodle could have outwitted Guilliman

Considering Guilliman couldn't even tell if he killed a traitor Primarch, you're probably right.

I'm curious to see how ol' Roboute is portrayed in the HH novels. I know that most people have portrayed him as a snotty know-it-all. On the other hand, he's a pretty sharp 'manager' who oversaw a huge organization.

Gwar, i agree with you on 99% of your post here, there is one point that i think is interpreted incorrectly though

"In Conclusion:
Ultramarines: Select via a rigorous screening from people who volunteer.

Space Wolves: Select whoever had enough balls to have otherwise fatal wounds in barbarian battle. "

Fenris is harsh, you described it very well, and you also mentioned that Every clan undergoes a fight for survival, frequently requiring war with other clans. by this logic, Every Fenrisian male has enough balls to die in battle.

also you mention

"Ultramarines: Recruit from a cluster of well populated, advanced worlds with a potential recruitment Pool of hundreds of billions.

Space Wolves: Recruit from a Single world with a population conceivability in the tens of millions, who are at a Viking Era technology level. "

so by Spase Mureen logic the ultrasmurfs would only recruit those who are are the most physically fit, intelligent, and capable. that way they do not waste any effort on them.

where as space puppies would be able to recruit every god forsaken soul who was unlucky enough to have been born on Fenris (as the simple act of living there makes you a badass).

so then we have 2 main variables,
X= the number of eligible candidates in the Ultramarine sector
Y= the number of eligible candidates on Fenris

and our equation is based on the chapters selectiveness
Ultramarines, even the name is condesending
Space Wolves, they actually fight with dogs. literally.


X would be based on a small percent of consenting male youth out of a population of billions who actually WANT to spend centuries doing nothing but killing and trying to not be killed- where as they can serve the Emporer just as well in the PDF and get the benefits of less risk and being home. There is no retirement for space marines.

Y is based on the entire male population of Fenris, as nearly every one of them will see combat. They do not apply to join the Space Wolves, they are selected. They do not turn down an offer to join the Gods.




I theorize that space wolves recruit a LOT more than the ultramarines. but as you mention, space wolves suffer from much higher attrition and more difficult (read: Fatal) indoctrination practices. Because of this, at any given time Space Wolves could have Great Companies that are as large or larger than a full chapter of codex astartes marines.

On top of this, Space Wolves do not count "lost companies" who have left the fang on a mission, and upon being recalled by the Great wolf they refused, as they believe their mission is incomplete (Each Great Company answers to its Wolf Lord, the Wolf Lord is not required to follow the Great Wolf) These lost companies are not counted among the ranks of space wolves, but they are not considered heretics, as they are still in the service of the Emporer and mankind. The 13th Company is the most famous of these, however more do exist.

I counter your assertion that the Space Wolves recruit more with the fact that the Ultramarines have a potential pool that is bigger than the Space Wolves by a factor of (to use the scientific term) "a metric f---ton"

Your variable X (willing recruits to the Ultramarines) even if it is a % value several times smaller, still encompass more than the entire population of Fenris. Most of the worlds in Ultramar are Hive worlds, and it must have Hundreds of Billions, if not close to trillions of people living there. If even a fraction of a percentage of them are suitable, and a fraction of them are willing, you still come up with a number higher than the whole population of Fenris.

so in reality it boils down to that number, the population of the Ultramar hive worlds vs the population of Fenris.

but also consider, the worlds of Ultramar are the selection grounds for multiple chapters.

and also consider there is no PDF for Fenris, just the space wolves, servitors, and machines guarding the planet.

so lets say 100,000,000,000 vs 10,000,000

now lets say there are 5 chapters based in Ultramar (in reality, one cannot quantify that number because of "custom" vanilla chapters)

20,000,000,000 vs 10,000,000

there are no female space marines
10,000,000,000 vs 5,000,000

consider the willingness to serve in the armed forces in present day united states when given the freedom of choice 1,400,000 active duty vs 300,000,000 total population, or about 0.47%
that leaves a pool of 470,000,000 (Ultramar) vs 5,000,000 (Fenris)

of these 470,000,000 how many will choose to be part of the PDF? where they get military service benefits, get to stay at home, and can retire later in life. i would guess a large portion. lets say 3/4

117,500,000 vs 5,000,000

then we compensate for age, the demographic will vary greatly, but the median age for people on Ultramar is Definately much higher than on Fenris
so that would leave maybe 10,000,000 or so on Ultramar, and maybe 1,000,000 or so on Fenris

these 10 million then go through the Ultramarine selection process, which is limited by their adherence to the Codex Astartes. If they need 20 marines for a company they pick 20 out of 100,000,000. The Space Wolves pick recruits as they are available as opposed to when they need or are allowed to pick them. Out of 1 million, every one of them is a badass. 10,000 could be superbadasses, so the space wolves would recruit 10,000 superbadasses who would go through harsh (Read: Fatal) training, and 1,000 would become Blood Claws. split those 1000 among the 12 Great companies, 83 or so blood claws.
20 vs 83

this is just how i see it, Fenris is a better badass breeding ground, and the Space Wolves are less selective, but more harsh.
Space Wolf units have flaws but are more ferocious (WS3 BS3, Berserk Charge)

There is no fluff to suggest anyone BUT the Ultramarines themselves recruit from Ultramar, so that's a bit of a flawed argument off the bat. And don't forget that like Cadia military training starts from practically birth.

So, other than the Hive Gangers (who are prime candidates in their own right) can you really imagine anyone NOT wanting to volunteer for possible selection, with the only result of being unacceptable is to go back into your planets PDF, considering the veneration the plebs in Ultramar have for T3h SPESS MARHINEZ?

hive gangers would be uneligle by age alone

and these are humans we are talking about, the average person would not want to go and die for the Emporer when they can work a normal job, and fill normal duties in society.

Demogerg wrote:hive gangers would be uneligle by age alone

Incorrect. Who says you cannot be a hive gang member at 11 or 12? I would be surprised if a Hive Ganger lived past 20.

Demogerg wrote:and these are humans we are talking about, the average person would not want to go and die for the Emporer when they can work a normal job, and fill normal duties in society.

Except were it not for the fact that in the Ultramar system they hold a great amount of pride for the Ultramarines, and would gladdy go and be tested to see if they could be inducted at the very least. For the Affluent families, it would be because of social expectation, whereas for the less affluant familes (hey being in poverty in Ultramar would sure beat anywhere else, but you're still poor) it would be a way to get rid of unwanted children

@ Gwar

Hmm, somehow, from the fluff, I don't get the impressin that Ultramar and its various settlements, have the old "Hive gang" issue. In fact, GW specifically paints Ultramar et al, as being an idealised type of human society. So I'd say the inclusion of "Hive Gangers" for induction into the Ultramarines is a BIG no no!

Theres also the problem with genetic compatibilty that you guys seem to be forgetting. Even if the realms of Ultramar have a gazillion possible candidates waiting at the doors of the Ultramarine temple, it could well be that only a minute fraction are compatible with Roberts gene-seed. It could be that, good old Leman Russ has a much more human compatible gene-type so that far more Fenrisians are able to not only be inducted, but also pass the tests to become full-fledged Blood Claws

Delephont wrote:Hmm, somehow, from the fluff, I don't get the impressin that Ultramar and its various settlements, have the old "Hive gang" issue. In fact, GW specifically paints Ultramar et al, as being an idealised type of human society. So I'd say the inclusion of "Hive Gangers" for induction into the Ultramarines is a BIG no no!

The fluff indicates that they still have hives, but their worlds are not polluted wastelands like Necromunda. Also this "idealised type of human society" is just that, idealised. It is written from a pro-Ultramarines standpoint, so of course it will paint it out to be super. Even today in big cities of a few million people, you have differing levels of class and affluence, ranging from the super rich to those in poverty.

And in anycase, the meaning of "nice living" differs in the 41st millennium, (See: Armageddon, Necromunda etc for how the typical pleb lives)

Delephont wrote:Theres also the problem with genetic compatibilty that you guys seem to be forgetting. Even if the realms of Ultramar have a gazillion possible candidates waiting at the doors of the Ultramarine temple, it could well be that only a minute fraction are compatible with Roberts gene-seed. It could be that, good old Leman Russ has a much more human compatible gene-type so that far more Fenrisians are able to not only be inducted, but also pass the tests to become full-fledged Blood Claws

Apart from the fact that the Ultramarines Geneseed is considered the second purist and most robust geneseed there is. If the Ultramarines Genestock were that fiddly to use, why would 90% of marine chapters be based off it? If that is the case, then every single marine chapter based off Ultramarine geneseed would also need a huge Empire to recruit from just to stay at combat strength, which we know does not happen (it is actually explicitly forbidden, but the Ultras get away with it because of the "1st founding bitch!" Card.)

@ Gwar

Well, what can I say to counter your point. Oh I know....right, the last time I was in Ultramar, conducting a "pleasure" survey, 90% of the citizens I met said they were happy with their lives and the other 10% said they'd be happier only if Rob would come back to life and bless them!

No one had any issues with Hive gangers, in fact I got a really weird look when I mentioned the phrase, and I had to explain that over on Necromunda they had a gang problem, etc etc!

So there you have it. Straight from the horses mouth. Next week, I'm heading out to Fenris to chase down some Fenrisian wolves, drink beer and then I'm off to the Lair to talk to the head honcho about the consistancy of his Geneseed.

I will report back on my return.

all of the numbers i presented in my post are just an example. in the end Ultramarines will recruit just enough marines to fill their ranks up to Codex Astartes standards, where as Space Wolves do not follow that codex, and can recruit willy-nilly.



also, you are going on the assumption that everyone WANTS to be a space marine.

do you WANT to join the army in the country you live? i know i dont.

Delephont wrote:@ Gwar

Well, what can I say to counter your point. Oh I know....right, the last time I was in Ultramar, conducting a "pleasure" survey, 90% of the citizens I met said they were happy with their lives and the other 10% said they'd be happier only if Rob would come back to life and bless them!

No one had any issues with Hive gangers, in fact I got a really weird look when I mentioned the phrase, and I had to explain that over on Necromunda they had a gang problem, etc etc!

So there you have it. Straight from the horses mouth. Next week, I'm heading out to Fenris to chase down some Fenrisian wolves, drink beer and then I'm off to the Lair to talk to the head honcho about the consistancy of his Geneseed.

I will report back on my return.

Gee, that's a convincing argument. There is no need to get all upset over it. Everything you read needs to be taken with a grain of Salt. Even GW admit that all fluff is written from a bias view. I am just using logic and examples of real life situations where lots of people congregate to suggest that Ultramar does have Gangs in their Hives. However, if you want to just ignore my Logical Argument and try and draw away from the fact I have neatly and succinctly shot down your argument, be my guest.

After all, what fluff do you have that says "Ultramarians all gak rainbows and fart skittles and there is never any gang violence ever"?
Nor do I have any fluff that suggests they don't, but since in the absence of detailed fluff, one (I assume) falls back to Logic, one can deduce that "Mmm, Several billion people all in hives? Seems like the underclasses would have a gang culture, same way as in real life cities with even a few million have such gangs."

Demogerg wrote:all of the numbers i presented in my post are just an example. in the end Ultramarines will recruit just enough marines to fill their ranks up to Codex Astartes standards, where as Space Wolves do not follow that codex, and can recruit willy-nilly.

All Chapters are always recruiting at all times. In the 41st Millenium they are always at war, and always taking combat losses. Don't forget as well that according tot he Codex, the Scout Company has no fixed upper limit so the Ultramarines could just keep recuiting as much as they need, and trickling up the most experienced scouts to full Brother whenever they are needed. And considering the Ultras are one of the Foremost chapters in fighting Tyranids wherever they may be, I think they are taking quite a few losses.

Demogerg wrote:also, you are going on the assumption that everyone WANTS to be a space marine.

do you WANT to join the army in the country you live? i know i dont.

As I said, the feeling I get from the Fluff is that becoming an Ultramarine is something people aspire too. For affluent families its because it gives the family social status and honour, and for lower downs it might be a way to just escape the crushing poverty (since I doubt many 12 Year old gangers will be signing up to the PDF any time soon). And lets not forget the effect of something we don't have here, and that is the Imperial Cult. The Imperial Cult teaches that every citizen must do the Emperors will. While I am sure there are many who couldnt give a rats arse, I am sure many would volunteer just on that alone.

And As I pointed out, In the world of the 41st millennium, a very high proportion of people are militarised, so have a much higher ratio of military personal to civilians that we would do today. That would conceivably rub off onto the kids and mean that a higher proportion view the military as something to aspire to.

I guess at this point we will just need to agree to disagree.

maybe some fluff in the new dex will clarify the chapters true size.

Gwar! wrote: Gee, that's a convincing argument. There is no need to get all upset over it. Everything you read needs to be taken with a grain of Salt. Even GW admit that all fluff is written from a bias view. I am just using logic and examples of real life situations where lots of people congregate to suggest that Ultramar does have Gangs in their Hives. However, if you want to just ignore my Logical Argument and try and draw away from the fact I have neatly and succinctly shot down your argument, be my guest.

Well, I'm not upset. The only flaw with your "argument" is its base.

Look, you're talking about a fantasy land, and you're applying all types of "real world" theory and "logic" and sitting back smiling feeling happy with yourself. Ok, no problem, its a free world. So you decide to post your thoughts, and invite comments.....people agree to comment, and put forward equally "logical" statements and counterstatements based in a fantasy setting, yet you try to shoot them down, claiming your "logic" of the fantasy is more logical then theirs.....do you see the stupidity in the whole thing?

Its like school children arguing over the actual color of the "yellow brick road" based on pollutants in the air, the make up of the bricks and the number and colour of the shoes people used to walk on it......

The reason I fell to "the absurd" was to highlight that in a fantasy setting anything goes....maybe Fenris is the size of the whole of Ultramar and its subsector planets....can you claim thats incorrect? based on what? Maybe the planet of Fenris has more population that whole of the Ultramarines empire! Is this wrong to assume? Maybe Fenris is a collection of planets, rather than just one? Is there a statement somewhere that denys that? and if there isn't how can you use real world "logic" to say that I'm wrong and you're right?

In the end, like I said before, what does it matter what size the Space Wolf legion actually is? The fluff sets out a few points that allow us, the gamer to percieve the chapter.

1. The Space Wolves do not follow the tenets of the Codex Astartes.
2. Rather than having one chapter of 1000 marines, there are instead 12 Great Companies.
3. Each Great Company is an army in itself, and is completey independant of the Space Wolves "Chapter" and have their own place in the Space Wolves "temple". (Here its hinted that a Great Company could rival the size of a Codex Chapter)

And I believe thats all that GW gives us, lets face it, what more do you need?

And Gwar does it again! The arguments are great. But I've read your article and I do think you have many valid points, especially the wolves being the most similar to 'pre-heresy' chapters.

My question is this: Does anyone know all of the necromunda fluff to see if there are any more direct parallels to what's been said? Everyone has made interesting points. In the end the tyranids will eat them all but it's nice to think about in the meantime.

It took me a while to read your post (concerning you being upset there were no replies). I spend much time reading up on stuff from various sources, even dug out stuff I had packed away to read. I didn't read everybodies reply, I like everything you've written, I just don't know how it really relates to your initial topic. Everything is predicated on initial selection of potential marines. Even given the difficulties in becoming a Space Wolf instead of an Ultramarine, if the Space Wolfs begin with more aspirants, they can afford to have more die off.

Your arguement has a few fatal flaws. But im going to focus on one.

you point out that the ultramarines have billions of people to feed into their Chapter, whilst the space wolves only have one planet with maybe ten million on it for them to recruit from.

But when looking at their life styles you fail to look at the possibility that the Fenris's lifestyle may breed more space marine quality humans. Also it sounds like the space wolves are not picky, picking basically any guy who gets wounded but doesnt die in combat, whilst the ultramarines have rigourous screenings that maybe one in a 100 million may pass.

The idea that the space wolves pick any guy who might be able to become a space marine means that they would have huge amounts of initiates so there high attrition rate would be ofset by this.

Likewise whilst the Ultramarines may have a larger population to recruit from, their dogmatic adherence to the codex astrates may well mean only 1-2 people on an entire planet may pass the screening per year.

in conclusion, the space wolves are alot less finicky about recruitment, meaning that their high attrition rate during the initiate stage would be compensated for. Whilst the Ultramarines have the option to be more selective in recruitment.

though to be fair im not sure of the great companies size either, im just playing devils advocate to highlight problems in your theory so you may improve it.

Nice read mate.

Very interesting point you make here. I would have a tendency to agree with space wolves being less finicky about recruitment. I would also think that they would be more apt to accept their own people as it seems like Fenris would breed tough, capable people anyways... Unlike the ultramarines, that would have to sort the wheat from the chaf of many worlds.

^^^ my points exactly

Well, you mention that perhaps only 1-2 per planet pass the testing, I have to disagree with that. Ultramarine combat Losses are far higher than that, and the codex also dictates that there is no limit on the scout company, so that a chapter can always be reciting. If they recruited only 1-2 per planet per year, that's like a squad an a half of scouts per year, and I am sure they need a bit more than that to just break even (unless a year on Macragge is like 6 Weeks, Possible but Unlikely)

While I coincide that perhaps the space wolves do take more aspirants per year and are a lot less picky, a much higher proportion are weeded out through all the different trials they have to partake in.
Furthermore these recruitments are not stable and constant like the Ultramarines, who recruit at any time during the year if a suitable aspirate appears, Space Wolves recruit once a year, and only pick those who were so manly they suffered moral wounds, then kept on fighting. I am sure they don't get to bring everyone they wanted back.

Of course, one implication of my argument is that a Great Company could be very varied in size depending on when you look at it. One Great Company might not have taken any significant losses in many years, and number anywhere up to 200 Marines, while another might be a new Great Company gifted to a Worth Space Wolf to replace one tragically destroyed. It is worth noting that the SW Legion has been wiped out to a Single Great Company at least twice in 10,000 years (yeah taken from Black Library so perhaps a Bucket of salt is needed on this one) and considering it took the Ultras over a Century with all those lovely planets to replace 2 or 3 companies after Macragge (iirc), imagine the time it would take to replace 11 "Chapter Sized" Great Companies.

Seems like we're all taking about numbers that aren't really out there. Do we know for sure that the wolves only recruit once a year? That caught my attention...

We are certain. Space Wolves only recruit from the most fierce warriors who "die" in battle.

The only time Fenrisans have any reason to fight is after the Summer of Fire when they must claim new land or sie at sea.

There are occasional clan wars, and the Space Wolves will look over them, but they are few and far between from my understanding.

I see. Thanks for the background!

yeah im gonna have to ask were that once a year comes from, in your original post you mentioned that the priests watch every battle on fenris and pick the most wounded/couragious/blood thirsty. and on a planet like fenris i imagine theres probably a battle going on atleast once a day. Assuming that maybe 25percent of those battles had a single warrior worthy of becoming a space marine that would be 91 recruits a year. or 182 per fenris year.

Maybe 1-2 recruits per planet per year was a little off, but if we change that to 3 recruits per planet per year and assume that theres ten planets in the ultramar sector(it says atleast eight so i assume there is one or two more) that would be 30 recruits a year.

and as it said that it can take 100 years to get a company up to full strength following it being almost destroyed 30 recruits seems about right, as not all would survive even in the ultramarines, and not all would be assigned to the growing devastated company.

but ultimately we cant prove anything as all our numbers are speculation based on assumptions brought out from the few facts we have.

EDIT: I read your point on the fact that most fighting would be going on during season of fire and whilst I concede this point I find it unlikely that fighting would not be common during the year, for instance clans that lose fights for an initial island would not be completely wiped out usually and would probably be forced to sail to new lands and attack later in the year, if they won another tribe would be displaced and forced to find a new land, if they lost they would have to sail on once again. Likewise some islands food sources may not last all year so tribes would have to move on. Plus any other plethora of reasons for people to have to move island during the year or just fight in general.

combo wrote:but ultimately we cant prove anything as all our numbers are speculation based on assumptions brought out from the few facts we have.

Which is the entire point of this thread, to have a good natured bitchfest about why I am wrong and a bad man.

And perhaps my statement of "recruiting once a year" was a little off. Would "Recruit mostly at one point in the year when the clan wars are at their most numerous and ferocious" do?

You're all forgetting one important thing. At some point there was a verified Space Wolf legion, where did it recruit from? Surely it recruited from Fenris. Why then, if the legion was able to recruit enough in the old times to fill a legion is it not able to do the same in the present era?

There are two obvious possibilities. The first is that it is possible to provide that many marines from Fenris alone; the second is that Fenris was never the sole planet that recruits came from, merely the planet where they were tested.

In any event, the Ultramarines chapter is limited by the codex, if they wanted to they could create an entire chapter from just one of the hives in their sector. With the billions of potentials to chose from only a handful make it to even be tested, there must be a vast bureaucratic mechanism that weeds out the majority before they even see a marine.
I can imagine uncounted numbers of people who would otherwise make excellent marines never getting a chance because they don't have enough money or influence to get to the next stage. Countless more who would make excellent marines never get chosen because the chapter has all the recruits it needs and by the time it needs more those people are too old.

It could be that Fenris does have enough of a population base to recruit a legion from, especially because of the warlike nature of their culture. Certainly the comparison with the Ultramarines is an extreme one because that chapter is unique in having its own mini empire. The UMs certainly don't need the whole of Ultramar to recruit from. I think the most important thing that marines check for is intelligence and perseverence, just about everthing else can be added through the indoctrination and neophyte programmes; I don't believe it's that hard to find suitable candidates to become marines, just the opposite.

Terran marines formed the Bulk of the Legion before finding Leman Russ. And after the heresy they were heavily beaten, meaning almost all of the remaining Space Wolves were ones recruited from Fenris.

Not to mention that during the Crusade they were a lot more open with the Fenrisans, and were able to take adults and backwards convert them.

cadbren wrote:You're all forgetting one important thing. At some point there was a verified Space Wolf legion, where did it recruit from? Surely it recruited from Fenris. Why then, if the legion was able to recruit enough in the old times to fill a legion is it not able to do the same in the present era?

There are two obvious possibilities. The first is that it is possible to provide that many marines from Fenris alone; the second is that Fenris was never the sole planet that recruits came from, merely the planet where they were tested.

In any event, the Ultramarines chapter is limited by the codex, if they wanted to they could create an entire chapter from just one of the hives in their sector. With the billions of potentials to chose from only a handful make it to even be tested, there must be a vast bureaucratic mechanism that weeds out the majority before they even see a marine.
I can imagine uncounted numbers of people who would otherwise make excellent marines never getting a chance because they don't have enough money or influence to get to the next stage. Countless more who would make excellent marines never get chosen because the chapter has all the recruits it needs and by the time it needs more those people are too old.

It could be that Fenris does have enough of a population base to recruit a legion from, especially because of the warlike nature of their culture. Certainly the comparison with the Ultramarines is an extreme one because that chapter is unique in having its own mini empire. The UMs certainly don't need the whole of Ultramar to recruit from. I think the most important thing that marines check for is intelligence and perseverence, just about everthing else can be added through the indoctrination and neophyte programmes; I don't believe it's that hard to find suitable candidates to become marines, just the opposite.

you've hit upon a great point, even if space wolves and ultramarines had the exact same growth rate, space wolves would be larger because they continue to grow, whilst the ultramarines would stop growing once they reach their full fighting force.

The thing is, the space wolves have a much higher attrition rate than the Ultras.

Gwar! wrote:The thing is, the space wolves have a much higher attrition rate than the Ultras.

that point has already been brought into disrepute by the fact that its highly probable that the space wolves recruitment numbers may be over double the ultras. Hell you said in your first post villages and towns in ultramar sector build statues when someone from their number is chosen to be a space marine, would that happen if recruitment was fairly common?

combo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The thing is, the space wolves have a much higher attrition rate than the Ultras.

that point has already been brought into disrepute by the fact that its highly probable that the space wolves recruitment numbers may be over double the ultras. Hell you said in your first post villages and towns in ultramar sector build statues when someone from their number is chosen to be a space marine, would that happen if recruitment was fairly common?

I said only the most affluent and upper class families do so. I doubt some poor family would have a statue.

Gwar! wrote:

combo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The thing is, the space wolves have a much higher attrition rate than the Ultras.

that point has already been brought into disrepute by the fact that its highly probable that the space wolves recruitment numbers may be over double the ultras. Hell you said in your first post villages and towns in ultramar sector build statues when someone from their number is chosen to be a space marine, would that happen if recruitment was fairly common?

I said only the most affluent and upper class families do so. I doubt some poor family would have a statue.

my mistake, but that still highlights the rare nature recruitment is.

Plus with research ive found out that two of the planets in the ultramar system are deadworlds with no population, lowering the recruitment number of the ultramarines by about a fifth.

Gwar! wrote:Terran marines formed the Bulk of the Legion before finding Leman Russ. And after the heresy they were heavily beaten, meaning almost all of the remaining Space Wolves were ones recruited from Fenris.

Not to mention that during the Crusade they were a lot more open with the Fenrisans, and were able to take adults and backwards convert them.

Good point about the terran link. Any thoughts as to why they don't recruit adults? I remember in the HH novel about the Dark Angels they took adults up to a certain age, I don't see why this practice should be dropped. Also going back to the original legion, if it's only the geneseed that matters then it shouldn't be too difficult to get marines from other planets and bring them up to speed with local culture.

cadbren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Terran marines formed the Bulk of the Legion before finding Leman Russ. And after the heresy they were heavily beaten, meaning almost all of the remaining Space Wolves were ones recruited from Fenris.

Not to mention that during the Crusade they were a lot more open with the Fenrisans, and were able to take adults and backwards convert them.

Good point about the terran link. Any thoughts as to why they don't recruit adults? I remember in the HH novel about the Dark Angels they took adults up to a certain age, I don't see why this practice should be dropped. Also going back to the original legion, if it's only the geneseed that matters then it shouldn't be too difficult to get marines from other planets and bring them up to speed with local culture.

The reason that it isn't done in "modern" times is twofold. Firstly, the technology that was used to create them didn't make them full Astartes, just highly augment humans and was considered later on to be flawed in the same way that the vastly accelerated "real" Astartes were made, so was stopped to prevent another Heresy.

And secondly they forgot how

But you don't know about UM recruitment, you're supposing.

jabbakahut wrote:But you don't know about UM recruitment, you're supposing.

This entire thread is about conjecture and "supposing".

Your point?

Gwar! wrote:We are certain. Space Wolves only recruit from the most fierce warriors who "die" in battle.

The only time Fenrisans have any reason to fight is after the Summer of Fire when they must claim new land or sie at sea.

There are occasional clan wars, and the Space Wolves will look over them, but they are few and far between from my understanding.

Errr, Gwar is incorrect on that point, Space Wolves USUALLY recruit from those who have suffered near fatal wounds in combat and kept fighting, but there is no strict adherence that they follow.

Gwar! wrote:

jabbakahut wrote:But you don't know about UM recruitment, you're supposing.

This entire thread is about conjecture and "supposing".

Your point?

No, you're drawing an interesting conclusion based on data, filling in the lack of data to support your point. But I'll agree with you, Ultramarines are douches anyway. I was all proud of the Blood Angle recruitment, until you talked about the Wulfs. I didn't realize these guys were that hard core.

from what i recall from the first sw book, the basic training camp had groups of new trainee's coming in every 2 or 3 months or so. that would probably add to their fast growth

Most legions initial warriors would have been Terran....or so the fluff would have us believe. There are at least two occassions where Terrans are considered to be "up their own arse" compared to the legions newest intake from the Primarchs "home" planet. There was document tension from the Dark Angels, and the Death Guard (see the Horus Heresy novels)

However, even after the Primarchs were found, most Legions then took their numbers from the Primarchs homeworld.....in most cases, the Primarchs only had one home world....so the Legions of the Dark Angels would have been taken from Caliban, the Death Guard from Colchis etc etc.....so theres substantial fluff to support the point that Fenris as a single planet had, and therefore continues to have, enough people to support a legion of Astartes.

Theres no fluff to support the theory that the Space Wolves are any less picky about their aspirants then any other legion! In fact, at the moment, no fluff has been presented that goes into detail about the practices of the UM in their selection. The only chapters that have had this covered in any detail, is the Blood Ravens, the Dark Angels, the Imperial Fists and the Space Wolves. From that fluff I would have said that the selection process is most sloppy with the Blood Ravens, with the others being about on par!

My final point. Leman Russ opposed the splitting of his legion, the only other "founding" to come fromhis legion was the Wolf Brothers, however, the loop-hole, if you can call it that, that helped him to actually keep his legion in tact was the creation of the Great Companies! Alongside the Black templars, the Space Wolves have the biggest organisation of Astartes because of this fluff fact. How big each Great Company is is not detailed, but it is definately larger than a standard codex company.

There is actually nothing to suggest the Space Wolves are any larger or any Smaller than a codex chapter in the "present" of 40k, other than being 2,000 strong or so at the end of the Heresy, which doesn't mean a thing.

As I said, the view that the Space Wolves are somehow a huge legion is IMO misguided, as this entire thread is devoted to

I would be a member of the camp that thinks the Space Wolves total force size is massive, although the force represented by the 12 great companies may only be somewhat larger than a normal Codex chapter.

the tipping factor in my mind is the lost companies and the 13th company.

Gwar! wrote:Terran marines formed the Bulk of the Legion before finding Leman Russ. And after the heresy they were heavily beaten, meaning almost all of the remaining Space Wolves were ones recruited from Fenris.

Terrans formed all the Legions before they found their Primarchs.

Gwar! wrote:There is actually nothing to suggest the Space Wolves are any larger or any Smaller than a codex chapter in the "present" of 40k, other than being 2,000 strong or so at the end of the Heresy, which doesn't mean a thing.

As I said, the view that the Space Wolves are somehow a huge legion is IMO misguided, as this entire thread is devoted to

So I don't get it then? Look, theres nothing to suggest they're bigger than a standard Codex Chapter, but theres nothing to say they arn't.....so whats the point of this thread.....it could go on forever, in circles chasing numbers plucked out of the air......

I know, I know, if I think its so pointless why not stop posting and move on? Well, thats exactly what I'm going to do, but I just wonder what you're hoping to achieve with this whole thing?...anyway, whatever, if this is interesting or fun for you then thats atleast something.

Delephont wrote:The only chapters that have had this covered in any detail, is the Blood Ravens, the Dark Angels, the Imperial Fists and the Space Wolves.

Blood Angles.

I don't even understand where all the talk of the chapter being huge is from, was there something in the canon which lead people to believe this? I've always just figure they had more than average, but nothing spectacular.

Blood Angles?

Correct me if I'm wrong but they don't have an actual codex, right? They just have a .pdf document, no?

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Blood Angles?

Correct me if I'm wrong but they don't have an actual codex, right? They just have a .pdf document, no?

The BA codex was "updated" in 2 Issues of WD.
It was then done as a PDF and was updated for 5th.

EDIT:
I remember when Epic came out with the "formation cards", a Great Company (basic form) had 10 stands of troops with transport plus 2 stands of wolf guard plus transport.

So just in troops the basic set up was 110 figures, not including all the usually extras you'd get at company level

So they did have an actual black & white codex?

BA had a 2nd edition, 3rd edition and update to 3rd and then PDF thingy.
Dunno why they didn't get a 4th edition, because I thought BA were a popular army.

Seems like they still are...

That's what threw me off when I was checking the GW site. All the figures for them are still there and they have the codex a la digital.

If they're doing that, why not bring back the genestealer cult as a .pdf too. That would be delicious.

I think you might be getting a little too off topic here Grunt but I don't really care as I like BA myself.

As for my opinions on Space Wolves, I always figured they were slightly larger than an UM company, though that inflated size would be mostly Blood Claws.

Personally I thought that company numbers would revolve around the Grey Hunters whose numbers would be lower than the Ultra's Tac Squads and then two or three longfangs. Seeing as Bloodclaws don't count cause they are more like attached scouts that never leave.

So in my conclusion a Great Company would look something like this.

Wolfguard, Commander, 15-20 or so
Grey Hunters, 40-50ish
Longfangs, 15 tops
Blood Claws, Rather random, as I see them as assigned more as they appear than as casualties accumulate. Though I would say two or three times the number of Grey Hunters in the same number of packs.

Gwar! wrote:There is actually nothing to suggest the Space Wolves are any larger or any Smaller than a codex chapter in the "present" of 40k, other than being 2,000 strong or so at the end of the Heresy, which doesn't mean a thing.

As I said, the view that the Space Wolves are somehow a huge legion is IMO misguided, as this entire thread is devoted to

Exactly where does it say the Wolves were 2,000 strong at the end of the Heresy? All we know is that Russ split the Legion in two to appease Guilliman. Nowhere does it say that he downsized to the number Guilliman would have liked.

And not counting the lost companies (no way of counting their numbers - a shame, since they *should* count, as the *are SW, much the same way as the BT are all counted together, even though they never operate that way), I think the SW are slightly bigger than a Codex Chapter. Even if individual Great Companies are slightly smaller at a guesstimated (means I pulled it out my @$$) 90 Wolves (not counting vehicles support), there's 12 Great Companies. 12*90= 1080 Wolves.
Codex Chapter: 10*100 marines=1000 marines
1080>1000, so even at smaller individual GC's ( a notion I do not ascribe to, BTW), Wolves are bigger than a Codex Chapter.

In addition, while I agree that Wolves have a higher attrition rate, I posit that by far the greater part of this attrition is from the Blood Claws. Even though their individual squad size is larger in the SW Codex, the bulk of a GC's fighting force is made up of more veteran Grey Hunters, and the attrition at their level is much, much lower. All the unskilled, careless or just plain unlucky individuals have, by the time a pack promotes to GH level, been weeded out, and as such, a GH squad can continue without much more attrition for a long, long, time.
After all, SW are known as being amongst the longer-living marines, and there has to be a significant number of Wolves (past the young ' uns) that actually survive that long in nearly constant battle for this to make an impression.

In addition, does anyone have any idea what the attrition rates are for Codex marines before they're actually elevated to actual Marines (ie, at the Scout (and before) level)? Since the BC's are the SW equivalent of scouts, part of me thinks the SW attrition levels are artificially higher than Codex Chapters, as the CM (Codex Marines) cheat by counting attrition only once one of their number is beyond the initial weeding out of the unskilled, careless and unlucky.

AdrianG wrote:

EDIT:
I remember when Epic came out with the "formation cards", a Great Company (basic form) had 10 stands of troops with transport plus 2 stands of wolf guard plus transport.

So just in troops the basic set up was 110 figures, not including all the usually extras you'd get at company level

This bit was probably missed in all the Blood Angel talk

Now times that by 12 and you would have a rough chapter size... As a "guide" of course

Bran Dawri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:There is actually nothing to suggest the Space Wolves are any larger or any Smaller than a codex chapter in the "present" of 40k, other than being 2,000 strong or so at the end of the Heresy, which doesn't mean a thing.

As I said, the view that the Space Wolves are somehow a huge legion is IMO misguided, as this entire thread is devoted to

Exactly where does it say the Wolves were 2,000 strong at the end of the Heresy? All we know is that Russ split the Legion in two to appease Guilliman. Nowhere does it say that he downsized to the number Guilliman would have liked.

Well if you wanna be that picky there is nothing to say the other Legions did so either, especially since it wasn't only Russ who opposed the Codex (although he was the only one to eventually reject it wholesale). I use 2,000 after the heresy as reasonable assumption, especialy when you factor Gullimans Personality into it (i.e. Pompous Ass-hole) who would have probably caused Great Heresy II if he didnt have his way.

Bran Dawri wrote:And not counting the lost companies (no way of counting their numbers - a shame, since they *should* count, as the *are SW, much the same way as the BT are all counted together, even though they never operate that way), I think the SW are slightly bigger than a Codex Chapter. Even if individual Great Companies are slightly smaller at a guesstimated (means I pulled it out my @$$) 90 Wolves (not counting vehicles support), there's 12 Great Companies. 12*90= 1080 Wolves.
Codex Chapter: 10*100 marines=1000 marines
1080>1000, so even at smaller individual GC's ( a notion I do not ascribe to, BTW), Wolves are bigger than a Codex Chapter.

As I clearly pointed out in my Original Post, I am going by the Assumption that a Codex Chapter is closer to 1,500 at full strength and that the "1000 SPESS MAHINEZ HURR!" is just a nice number to keep the masses from gaking themselves in fear.

Bran Dawri wrote:In addition, while I agree that Wolves have a higher attrition rate, I posit that by far the greater part of this attrition is from the Blood Claws. Even though their individual squad size is larger in the SW Codex, the bulk of a GC's fighting force is made up of more veteran Grey Hunters, and the attrition at their level is much, much lower. All the unskilled, careless or just plain unlucky individuals have, by the time a pack promotes to GH level, been weeded out, and as such, a GH squad can continue without much more attrition for a long, long, time.
After all, SW are known as being amongst the longer-living marines, and there has to be a significant number of Wolves (past the young ' uns) that actually survive that long in nearly constant battle for this to make an impression.

I agree, but this Longevity is offset by the fact they have a much smaller recruitment pool (and therefore recruitment rate) than the Ultramarines who have literally Trillions of potential recruits at any one time.

Bran Dawri wrote:In addition, does anyone have any idea what the attrition rates are for Codex marines before they're actually elevated to actual Marines (ie, at the Scout (and before) level)? Since the BC's are the SW equivalent of scouts, part of me thinks the SW attrition levels are artificially higher than Codex Chapters, as the CM (Codex Marines) cheat by counting attrition only once one of their number is beyond the initial weeding out of the unskilled, careless and unlucky.

Quite Possible, but lets not forget they they don't allow the "unskilled, careless and unlucky" to become Scouts or Blood Claws. Those ones have been weeded out even before that stage. Blood Claw Attrition cannot possibly be lower than Space Marine Scouts simply because of the different role they play. A Scout skulking off a mile from the enemy will naturally have much less of a chance of being outmatched than a Nutty Blood Claw in Power Armour Up close and Personal.

but scouts are just that, Scouts. They are there to observe, report, and occasionaly fight with the aid of a sergeant.

where as blood claws are a shock-troop that is constantly unleashed into the thick of the battle, where life is cheap and all sides take losses.

Too much to read, especially the original post. It makes too many assumptions. It’s like saying based on population and wealth, China’s army should be at least 5 times larger than North Korea’s. In fact, counting reserves, NK has the larger army.

A few points:
1) Ultramar’s systems may support the Ultramarines and their successor chapters.
2) I don’t know how it became “fact” that a marine chapter has more than 1000 marines. It’s always been 1000.
3) At full strength, the Space Wolves probably have 12 companies with 100-120 marines each. As mentioned before, that’s the guidance from the game Space Marines. Who knows, they don’t adhere to a set organization.
4) In the very old and very good novel Space Marine, the Imperial Fists did indeed recruit hive gangers from Necromunda. Have gangers are mostly teens, just like gangers here on Terra.

Gobbla wrote:
4) In the very old and very good novel Space Marine, the Imperial Fists did indeed recruit hive gangers from Necromunda. Have gangers are mostly teens, just like gangers here on Terra.

Thanks for that clarification, I did not realize that there was a fluff source that mentioned recruiting hive gangers.

Gobbla wrote:Too much to read, especially the original post. It makes too many assumptions. It’s like saying based on population and wealth, China’s army should be at least 5 times larger than North Korea’s. In fact, counting reserves, NK has the larger army.

If you are not gonna bother to read the post, why are you responding to it? That's just rude.

Gobbla wrote:1) Ultramar’s systems may support the Ultramarines and their successor chapters.

Can you prove that? No, because there is nothing to say either way, so we Apply Occam's Razor. Which is Simpler , the Ultramarines Recruiting from Ultramar, or somehow a whole bunch of Successors that have never once been mentioned in the context of Ultramar? Furthermore, if there are so many Chapters the recruit from there, where the hell were they during the Battle for Maccrage? Sitting around drinking tea? It's pretty clear the Ultramarines don't share Ultramar with anyone else.

Gobbla wrote:2) I don’t know how it became “fact” that a marine chapter has more than 1000 marines. It’s always been 1000.

No, it hasn't. It's been Quoted "A Thousand Chapters of a Thousand marines", at no point was it "A Space Marine Chapter is exactly 1000 marines and if you say otherwise you are a heretic!". Take a look at the newest Codex, you will see a nice breakdown of what a Chapter is like. Each of the 9 Marine Companies has 100 marines, plus a Captain, Apothecary and Chaplain. That's 103 per company right there. Then add in the Librarians, Additional Apothecaries and other HQ staff, and that's much more than 1000 marines even when you don't include the Scouts or Scout Sergeants (who are technically full marines). And this is all from the most current codex, so it's not like I am trying to use some obscure old fluff. Again if you had the manners to read my post you would have seen the link to the article that describes in detail why a Chapter is more than 1000 marines.

Gobbla wrote:3) At full strength, the Space Wolves probably have 12 companies with 100-120 marines each. As mentioned before, that’s the guidance from the game Space Marines. Who knows, they don’t adhere to a set organization.

Can you provide us with some rationale/evidence for that? I offered you my argument as to why they are smaller, using logic and reasonable assumptions where hard fact was unavailable. All you have done is throw a random number with no basis as to why.

Gobbla wrote:4) In the very old and very good novel Space Marine, the Imperial Fists did indeed recruit hive gangers from Necromunda. Have gangers are mostly teens, just like gangers here on Terra.

Not sure who this comment was addressed at because I did say that the Ultras will recruit them...

Gwar! wrote:Well if you wanna be that picky there is nothing to say the other Legions did so either, especially since it wasn't only Russ who opposed the Codex (although he was the only one to eventually reject it wholesale). I use 2,000 after the heresy as reasonable assumption, especialy when you factor Gullimans Personality into it (i.e. Pompous Ass-hole) who would have probably caused Great Heresy II if he didnt have his way.

Except that Russ' personality (ie, stubborn bastard who doesn't give a pile of Ork doo for what anyone thinks or would do, and is known for doing what he thinks is the right thing come Hell or high water) was in this instance directly opposed to Guilliman's wishes.

Gwar! wrote:As I clearly pointed out in my Original Post, I am going by the Assumption that a Codex Chapter is closer to 1,500 at full strength and that the "1000 SPESS MAHINEZ HURR!" is just a nice number to keep the masses from gaking themselves in fear.

Yes, but I'm a) not certain that number is correct, and b) it includes vehicle crews and other support. My 90 Wolves do not include those. The point wasn't the number 90 in any case. The point was that, even if individual Wolf companies are slighly smaller than CM companies, there's 20% more companies in the SW Chapter, so still more Wolves than marines. I don't think a Great Company is 20% smaller than a Codex Company - they'd be too small to be an effective fighting force, and each GC is a completely independent army itself (excepting Venerable dread and Wolf/Rune/Iron priests), unlike a Marine Company, whose (for instance) reserves, scouts, terminators and Veterans each come from different Companies (6-9th Cpny, 10th Cpny, and 1st Cpny, respectively).

Gwar! wrote:I agree, but this Longevity is offset by the fact they have a much smaller recruitment pool (and therefore recruitment rate) than the Ultramarines who have literally Trillions of potential recruits at any one time.

See, this is the part where we'll just have to disagree. Ultramar is a virtual paradise (by 40K standards, anyway). Fenris is a Death World. One of, if not the worst in the Galaxy, at that. Not only that, its inhabitants are kept at a medieval tech level and forced to war against not just the elements, but each other constantly.
For someone on Fenris to survive beyond childhood to the point where they may actually be recruited means that they're already stronger, tougher, faster, smarter (maybe) and more skilled than 99,9% of the recruitable age slice of the Ultramar population.
In short, Fenris' overall population may be lower, but the % of possible recruits is far, far, far higher than in Ultramar.

Gwar! wrote:Quite Possible, but lets not forget they they don't allow the "unskilled, careless and unlucky" to become Scouts or Blood Claws. Those ones have been weeded out even before that stage. Blood Claw Attrition cannot possibly be lower than Space Marine Scouts simply because of the different role they play. A Scout skulking off a mile from the enemy will naturally have much less of a chance of being outmatched than a Nutty Blood Claw in Power Armour Up close and Personal.

Actually, by unskilled, careless, and unlucky I mean unskilled and careless by space marine standards - these people are the best of the best humans, but still below the standard of even a below average Marine.
Regardless, I don't think the attrition difference between scouts and Blood Claws is as pronounced as you think - Blood Claws are in the thick of things, yes, but they a) wear Power armour versus a scouts' Scout armour, b) already have considerable experience in HtH combat before they're even recruited for the Wolves, and c) will have support/retreat options right behind them, while Scouts, by their nature, are on their own.
Besides, IIRC, the Ultramarines recruitment is at least partially from athletic contests - which usually try to at least mitigate if not eliminate outright the results of luck, as they're supposedly contests of skill/strength.
Although I do agree that BCs will still suffer from more attrition than even scouts, my point is that for a regular marine chapter attrition will be higher among their youngest scouts, then regular scouts, then full company marines, just like for Wolves attrition is highest among Blood Claws, then Grey Hunters. It's just that for Wolves, attrition rates take the new recruits into account, while for regular marines, they don't, meaning that Wolf attrition rate is already (incorrectly) higher than average before their tactics are taken into account.

Gwar!, I think you'll find Gobbla was referring to my post about the Great Company size.
As a Stand in Epic Space Marine was "supposed" to represent 10 men.
Therefore I made a figure of 120 as a guide to the basic size of a Great Company.

For reference:

AdrianG wrote:

AdrianG wrote:

EDIT:
I remember when Epic came out with the "formation cards", a Great Company (basic form) had 10 stands of troops with transport plus 2 stands of wolf guard plus transport.

So just in troops the basic set up was 110 figures, not including all the usually extras you'd get at company level

This bit was probably missed in all the Blood Angel talk

Now times that by 12 and you would have a rough chapter size... As a "guide" of course

This thread is full of win.

No one can "win" the discussion, but lots of fluff gets thrown around and we all come out with more knowledge of our favorite Space Puppies.

Demogerg wrote:This thread is full of win.

No one can "win" the discussion, but lots of fluff gets thrown around and we all come out with more knowledge of our favorite Space Puppies.

That was kind of my point ya know

Demogerg wrote:but scouts are just that, Scouts. They are there to observe, report, and occasionaly fight with the aid of a sergeant.

where as blood claws are a shock-troop that is constantly unleashed into the thick of the battle, where life is cheap and all sides take losses.

I would imagine there'd be a lot of blood claws out there as they're the young guns trying desperately to prove themselves.

hehe, good thread with lots of intresting points! Great disscussion GWAR and Daka, thank you for assisting my daily work productivity!

No kidding. Gwar has single-handedly kept my mind working during these extremely dull times.

Gwar! wrote:As I clearly pointed out in my Original Post, I am going by the Assumption that a Codex Chapter is closer to 1,500 at full strength and that the "1000 SPESS MAHINEZ HURR!" is just a nice number to keep the masses from gaking themselves in fear.

From Ultramarines Chapter Organisation (current codex)
997 marines in squads (first company only has 97 veterans)
27 Honour guard
13 Apothecaries
29 librarians
28 techmarines
10 captains
10 chaplains
45 marines in command squads (assumption that every company has five except for scouts which don't have one)
Ortian Cassius (Master of Sanctity)
Marneus Calgar (Chapter Master)
26 Drednoughts (they are marines of a sort)

That makes 1161 marines or 1187 if you count the dreds.

The Ultramarines have 31 Thunderhawks with three marine crew each. I assume that these are dedicated crews as they need to be constantly moving supplies and marines to and from battle without taking marines out of the combat forces.
That makes at least 93 marines.

Total is then 1280

I don't see dedicated drivers for rhinos, raiders and so forth as these are weapons in themselves that remain on the battlefield and so having crews drawn from combat squads doesn't take troops from the battle like crewing thunderhawks would. I think it more likely that these crews are either drawn from the companies the vehicles are assigned to or that they are drawn from the reserve companies such as the 8th and 9th; the 6th and 7th in a codex chapter being responsible for the bikes and landspeeders.

In any case it's certainly more marines over the stated 1000 than I was expecting. If this is standard practice for a codex chapter then who's to say that a non-codex "chapter" like the Space Wolves doesn't have all sorts of clever ways to have far in excess of even that? As their geneseed isn't considered stable then chances are that they're the only ones who really want to use it which gives them the chance to produce extra brethren even despite the high attrition rates through implanting and training.

I don't understand how Longevity is related to anything, again BA are one of the longest lived of the chapters, but isn't every single marine essentially immortal? I didn't think any of them died of old age.

Delephont wrote:Look, you're talking about a fantasy land, and you're applying all types of "real world" theory and "logic" and sitting back smiling feeling happy with yourself.

Quite a useless point of view to hold Delephont. In your first post in this thread you essentially insulted anyone who likes writing fiction, then go onto argue with said fiction writer, and then when he disagrees with you, you clamber back to "it's not real" (tautological much?)

In a forum that's all about fluff. Oh the irony...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Delephont wrote:Look, you're talking about a fantasy land, and you're applying all types of "real world" theory and "logic" and sitting back smiling feeling happy with yourself.

Quite a useless point of view to hold Delephont. In your first post in this thread you essentially insulted anyone who likes writing fiction, then go onto argue with said fiction writer, and then when he disagrees with you, you clamber back to "it's not real" (tautological much?)

In a forum that's all about fluff. Oh the irony...

I said I wasn't going to post in this topic again, however, as I've been called out personally, it would be rude not to!

In my opinion, this isn't someone writing a piece of fluff to support a home brewed army, or a piece of creative writing to shed some light on an otherwise darkened place within the WH40K realm, this thread is about someone trying to justify or create a factual base for the current fluff using real world logic and numbers dreamed up from thin air. The OP, then goes on to invite comments etc....which is what I did.

What pushed my buttons, if the phrase fits, is that the OP then went on to disregard counter statements (with equal real world logic or dreamed up numbers) by basically saying "my fantasy is better than yours".......

On the point of useless posts, however, how does yours add anything to the topic at hand?.....just curious!

I'm not sure why it's important if the Ultramarines can recruit more than the wolves or not - they won't because the codex doesn't allow them to.
Consider this:

Veterans comprise 10% of a codex chapter.

There is no reason to believe Space Wolves are less selective.

Each Great Company has 20 veteran equivalents (Wolf Guard)

Therefore each Great company has 200 men.

There are 12 GC's, so there are 2,400 Space Wolves.
Factoring in cadbren's 25% (aprox) ancillary personnel gives you 3,000.

tsuro wrote:
Veterans comprise 10% of a codex chapter.

not to seem rude, but that invalidates your argument, as Space Wolves are absolutely not a codex chapter.

thanks for the input though

tsuro wrote:I'm not sure why it's important if the Ultramarines can recruit more than the wolves or not - they won't because the codex doesn't allow them to.
Consider this:

Veterans comprise 10% of a codex chapter.

There is no reason to believe Space Wolves are less selective.

Each Great Company has 20 veteran equivalents (Wolf Guard)

Therefore each Great company has 200 men.

There are 12 GC's, so there are 2,400 Space Wolves.
Factoring in cadbren's 25% (aprox) ancillary personnel gives you 3,000.

This post is a wonderful example of why people who don't know anything about the Space Wolves should stay away.

Firstly: "Veterans comprise 10% of a codex chapter." So what? Space Wolves are not a codex chapter.

Secondly "Each Great Company has 20 veteran equivalents (Wolf Guard)" This is wrong wrong WRONG. The 20 Model limit is just an arbitarty rules limit. A Wolf Lords Wolf Guard is NOT always 20 models. It can be as small or as large as he wants, and is actually based on ability, unlike codex marines where its a case of "oh dear Brother Alf of the 1st company died, find some shmuck from 2nd to replace him"

So, does anyone else actually have thought out arguments to bring to this fun little debate?

Why does it invalidate it? They may not be codex, but that doesn't mean they have to deviate in every regard. And even if they do, so what? We don't know one way or the other and it's a reasonable assumption to make, certainly more likely than a fith of the great company being veterans.

I'm inclined to believe that less than 10% get chosen as Wolfguard, but I have no sources to draw from and it raises the numbers even higher.

It's not reasonable to make at all.
As I said, 1st company membership is less about individual ability than the wolf guard.

To just say that a blanket 10% of each Great Company has impressed their Wolf Lord enough for a spot at his side is ludicrous to the extreme.

Ah, I disagree with your perception of the chapter so I must have no knowledge about them.

The twenty limit rule has been present in every Space Wolf codex.

You call it "arbitrary" but that's another assumption you've made in your arguments.
Rules are made for reasons.
Its not even a relevant concern. If they can take at least twenty WG they have at least 200 troops. Granted, Great Company sizes fluctuate, but how drammatically?

To just say that a blanket 10% of each Great Company has impressed their Wolf Lord enough for a spot at his side is ludicrous to the extreme.

I suggest it is not unreasonable to take this number as an average and treat it as such.

The Rule is arbitrary because, assuming your stance is correct and that Space Wolves have a fetish for the number 20 and never allow more than 20 wolf guard, what happens if your space wolf army is made up of 2 different Great Companies? Why can't I take 40 then? The reason is that because the 20 Wolf Guard Limit is an arbitrary limit, the same way as the 0-1 Wolf Lord limit is Arbitrary. I also love how you proudly state "The twenty limit rule has been present in every Space Wolf codex" because as we all know the Space Wolves have has so many codex's over the years haven't they. Oh yes, it's not like they had a Single Codex in 2nd edition and had a Minidex that was nothing but a Quick rehash of the old codex's rules, limits and everything included... oh wait! It was.

Luckily GW have moved away from such arbitrary 0-1 limits in their new codex's (hence you can now take 2 Company Command Squads/ 2 Chapter Masters just fine)

As for your statement that "If they can take at least twenty WG they have at least 200 troops" who is to say the number of wolf guard bear any meaning to the number of regular marines in the chapter? One wolf Lord might have 4 trusted Brothers in his wolf Guard, while another one might have had 2 Packs of Grey Hunters just so utterly badass that he felt he could give them the privilege of being wolf guard, meaning he would have 30 or more "Wolf Guard".

But where did you get this idea of an "Average" from? A The Codex Astrates, which holds as much weight on what the Space Wolves do as an Inquisitors choice of breakfast.

what happens if your space wolf army is made up of 2 different Great Companies? Why can't I take 40 then?

Your army is not made up of two Great Companies, whatever you may want to tell yourself, hence the 0-1 limit on Wolf Lords. The Codex is a blueprint for building a single company.

Oh yes, it's not like they had a Single Codex in 2nd edition and had a Minidex that was nothing but a Quick rehash of the old codex's rules, limits and everything included... oh wait! It was.

This is quite plainly false. I thought I was the one who wasn't supposed to know anything about Space Wolves?
The mini dex changed -
The stats of evey unit in the army (goodbye WS5)
The rules of every unit in the army (hello true grit, counterattack, no matter the odds, behind enemy lines etc..)
The weapons available to units (e.g only two power fists in grey hunters)
The wargear available and what it did
And more importantly some of the limits. e.g Blood Claws used to be ten in a squad, now they're 8-15. Grey Hunters used to be ten, now 6-10 and became mandatory.

They changed some limits and left others alone. That denotes choice, which suggests the person chosing had reasons.
It even states in the minidex that the reason for the hard limit is that there are only a limited number of Wolf Guard in each Great Company.

Luckily GW have moved away from such arbitrary 0-1 limits in their new codex's (hence you can now take 2 Company Command Squads/ 2 Chapter Masters just fine)

Perhaps, or perhaps they're moving away from a previous design philosophy? It doesn't change the intention behind the previous dex and what we can conclude from it.

As for your statement that "If they can take at least twenty WG they have at least 200 troops" who is to say the number of wolf guard bear any meaning to the number of regular marines in the chapter? One wolf Lord might have 4 trusted Brothers in his wolf Guard, while another one might have had 2 Packs of Grey Hunters just so utterly badass that he felt he could give them the privilege of being wolf guard, meaning he would have 30 or more "Wolf Guard".

But where did you get this idea of an "Average" from? A The Codex Astrates, which holds as much weight on what the Space Wolves do as an Inquisitors choice of breakfast.

Again, I suggest Wolf guard size being relative to unit size is a fair assumption. You wouldn't have your thirty wolfguard in a Great Company if there were six grey hunters and a squad of blood claws left. Similar to how you need a certain sized population to support a certain number of marines, there needs to be a certain number of marines to support a level of veterans.

The "average" is nothing do with the Codex Astartes. I'm suggesting that 20 is not a "fetish" figure but the "average" number of Wolfguard in a Great company when considering the chapter as a whole, so as to account for individual wolf Lord idiosyncracities.

Once again, just because they don't follow the astartes doesn't mean they don't sometimes fuction the same. We have never been told that Wolves have more relative veterans than other chapters. We have never been told they have less. We have been told about their other deviations. We know that they have more in common with codex marines than out. Therefore it is a valid conclusion that they do not alter in this regard.

Further, (1) I'm not suggesting that the number of marines is an upper limit but a lower one and (2) that the smaller company size you advocated at the begining of the thread wouldn't support the number of wolfguard they could have.

We're told there is a limited number, and we're told what that number is. My conclusions are based on these. Yours were based on the idea that the ultramarines had a much larger pool of applicants to choose from and would take as many as they could (despite their beloved primach deliberately limiting their numbers), hence the Space Wolves had to be smaller.

tsuro wrote:
Once again, just because they don't follow the astartes doesn't mean they don't sometimes fuction the same.

I think it does, as the Codex Astartes defines how a chapter is organized, how they function, and how they fight.
Space Wolves are primarily different in 2 respects from other chapters, 1. they completely ignore the Codex Astartes, and 2. they have a genetic mutation that sets them apart (as many other chapters have their own mutations)

They do not have their own codex because of their mutations, else we would have many many more codices out. they have their own codex because they fight differently, they function differently, and they are organized differently.

...and yet they use the same weapons, vehicles and armour as codex chapters. In that regard they function the same.

They have an assault unit, a long range unit and a mid range unit. In that regard they function the same.

They have an elite core who alone have access to terminator armour. In that regard they function the same.


It is fallacious to say that because the chapter is sometimes different they are always different. That point is unarguable.
The Space Wolves are more similar to marines than they are different.

I just want to ask you, was my OP so amazing that you had to sign up to dakkadakka for? After all all your posts have been in this thread.

To be honest, I think you are an Alt account made to harass this thread, but anyway.

Although they use the same equipment, their tactics and organisation are as alien to Codex marines as, well aliens. Or are you the kind of person who wants GW to just make a 2 Books system (Rules + All Codex's) and kill any and all creativity in 40k?

Gwar! wrote:Although they use the same equipment, their tactics and organisation are as alien to Codex marines as, well aliens. Or are you the kind of person who wants GW to just make a 2 Books system (Rules + All Codex's) and kill any and all creativity in 40k?

It's not the same tactics and organization, but it's not a foreign as say - an Ork warband, and is more similar to the Ultramarines than a Tau Cadre.

I think most of the arguement in this thread is just to argue. GW has never set the max, min, or average size of a Great Company let alone the whole Chapter, and I'm sure this is very deliberate. We're just speculating, me included.

Remember, the bulk of the Company is made up of Grey Hunters, and Ragnar is (iirc) the only Wolf to go from Blood Claw to the Wolf Guard. Also, most Wolves fall in battle as a Blood Claw. So, Blood Claws are the most variable number. I think assuming that Wolf Guard are tyically about 10% the total size of the Great Company is reasonable. If Wolf Guard make up much more than 10% of the Company, it's not an 'elite' unit. If it's too small a percentage, it's so exclusive that no one gets in. I would guess the size of a Company varies from about 100-250, typically around 150-200. Figure about 60-80 Grey Hunters in packs, about 20 more Grey Hunters as vehicle crews, 10-15 Long Fangs, and 20 Wolf Guard. That's about 120 Wolves. Throw in 0-100 Blood Claws, with probably about 50 typically. So, 170. By third edition codex, Scouts, all Dreads, the Iron Priests, Wolf Priests, and Rune Priests come from the Great Wolf's Company (which I disagree with, if each Company is truly self-sufficient like described, these assests would be assigned to the Companies, and the Wolf Lords would not be requistioning them from the Great Wolf).

I just want to ask you, was my OP so amazing that you had to sign up to dakkadakka for? After all all your posts have been in this thread.

To be honest, I think you are an Alt account made to harass this thread, but anyway.

I was reading the reactions to the space wolf rumours and there were links to this thread so I checked it out. I disagreed with what I read so I took the time to contribute to the discussion.

As for harrassment, your reaction to my very first post was that I didn't know anything about space wolves and should stay away.

Although they use the same equipment, their tactics and organisation are as alien to Codex marines as, well aliens. Or are you the kind of person who wants GW to just make a 2 Books system (Rules + All Codex's) and kill any and all creativity in 40k?

Nowhere have I stated I want everything to be the same. I'm commenting on how things are, not how I wish them to be.

Tsuro, i was the one who linked to this thread, and lets all please refrain from personal attacks, i like to keep discussions civil.

Anyways,
"and yet they use the same weapons, vehicles and armour as codex chapters. In that regard they function the same."
yes, but Imperial Guard use the same weapons as Space Marines, Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle, and DH and Space Wolves use at least 1 imperial guard tank (in the fluff the Space Wolves actually have more) and Space Wolves and Space Marines wear the same armor as the Sisters of Battle.

equipment is generally universal across the Imperium.


"They have an assault unit, a long range unit and a mid range unit. In that regard they function the same."

well, we have 2 assaulty units, one of which is a reaction based unit that can be equiped for close range fire, but the most mid range it gets is a plas gun and a few bolter shots. To call Grey Hunters mid range i think is a bit skewed to prove point, they are still made for CC. Also, Orks have assaulty units, mid ranged units, and long ranged units, in this respect they are like Space Marines too, no?

"They have an elite core who alone have access to terminator armour. In that regard they function the same."
This is true. But to argue that because the elite troops have better armor it is a functional equivalent is pretty redundant when you start to consider every single race in the game.


lets all just stop hating each other and direct that negative attitude towards something useful, like bashing ShumaGorath.

The closest officially printed numbers for a great company you are going to find is going to be in the original OOP Space Marine game.

Space Marine ( 1st ed epic) had data cards outlining formations. From those data cards, Space Wolves have:

The Great Company data card is the basic element of your army it includes.
1 Wolf Lord
10 Wolf Guard (it's up to 20 in the current fluff)
12 Grey Hunter packs (24 bases of 5)

The Great Company includes 130 Space Wolves before adding BC's and LF's.

You can then add up to 5 of the following to make up the rest of the Great Company. (Now keep in mind from a fluff perspective GH should be the most numerous pack in the Great Company.)

30 blood claws (6 bases of 5) or 3 full packs of 10
30 Long Fangs (6 bases of 5) or 3 full packs of 10 (remember this was before the first Wolf dex)
10 BC bikers (5 bases of 2) or 1 full pack
Tank squad of 3 tanks
Speeder squadron of 5 landspeeders

So lets just assume we take one of each the BC's and the LF's. That would put a conservative Great Company around 200 Space Wolves.

The problem in getting numbers is that the Space Wolves are not codex and so don’t follow hard and fast rules for numbers… so the above would be a rough estimate that I would work towards myself, and then add the odd extra pack here or there just for grins.

Tsuro, i was the one who linked to this thread, and lets all please refrain from personal attacks, i like to keep discussions civil.

Ah, I just assumed it was the thread starter. Guess that makes an ass out of me.
I've ninja edited my previous post, I hope that isn't some massive breach of conduct.

As regards the other points (Equipment, units etc..) the fact is that Space Wolves aren't different in everything so they must be the same in some things. Whether it's because they're part of the imperium or because of game balance, that is the way they have been designed.

It may seem counterintuitive to base the relative number of vets on codex marines, but we have no reason to believe otherwise and it looks like the right number.

tsuro wrote:
It may seem counterintuitive to base the relative number of vets on codex marines, but we have no reason to believe otherwise and it looks like the right number.

well, we do have a few hints that would suggest that Space Wolves actually have more vets than other chapters,
1. In the current codex we select HQs differently, which means in most cases (all but the smallest of games) we will have more HQ than vanilla marine lists.
2. Space Wolves have no problems promoting from Blood Claw right into Wolf Guard (example: Ragnar)
3. Space Wolves organizational structure hints that Wolf Guard, although they can be attatched to a Pack and function similar to a veteren sergeant in a codex marine list, they are still a member of the Wolf Guard, which is a separate entity, and are not necesarily tied to that Pack, but rather, they would be tied to their duty as a Wolf Guard, loyal to their Wolf Lord/Great Wolf.

#3 is just speculation, as in the fluff Space Wolves are also known to be fiercely loyal to their packs and pack leaders.

Demogerg wrote:well, we do have a few hints that would suggest that Space Wolves actually have more vets than other chapters,
1. In the current codex we select HQs differently, which means in most cases (all but the smallest of games) we will have more HQ than vanilla marine lists.

In my opinion this is another silly arbitrary rule. Space Wolves may have a more fluid command Structure, but that doesn't mean the Wolf Lord is gonna go "oops we have 3 too many Blood Claws better send down a Wolf Priest to look after them." Personaly I will be glad to see the back of this useless rule (especially since our HQ will go up in points significantly in the new codex). again, that's just my personal opinion of the fluff.

Demogerg wrote:2. Space Wolves have no problems promoting from Blood Claw right into Wolf Guard (example: Ragnar)

Ragnar is the ONLY Named space wolf to EVER go from Blood Claw to Wolf Guard, it's a big part of his Shtick. Yes it has happened before but it is so rare and unheard of that it makes Ragnar even more special. For this to happen is just so amazing and unthinkable, its the equivalent of say a Dark Angel Initiate being promoted to the Deathwing in 6 years, or a Ultramarines Scout Suddenly becoming Captain of the 3rd Company.

Demogerg wrote:3. Space Wolves organizational structure hints that Wolf Guard, although they can be attatched to a Pack and function similar to a veteren sergeant in a codex marine list, they are still a member of the Wolf Guard, which is a separate entity, and are not necesarily tied to that Pack, but rather, they would be tied to their duty as a Wolf Guard, loyal to their Wolf Lord/Great Wolf.

#3 is just speculation, as in the fluff Space Wolves are also known to be fiercely loyal to their packs and pack leaders.

Although a Member is loyal to their pack, that wont stop them from going where they are needed... Mostly. I do remember reading some story about how the Wolf Priests act as a sort of counsellor for such Space Wolves who are loathe to leave their pack because they feel it would be betraying them, but are reminded that by serving at the Wolf Lords side they do their pack more honour than they could otherwise. Another example of this is when a Long Fang is selected to become a Wolf Priest, where because of their need to be impartial, they adopt a new name and are mourned for as if slain in battle by their few remaining brothers.

tsuro wrote:...and yet they use the same weapons, vehicles and armour as codex chapters. In that regard they function the same.

They have an assault unit, a long range unit and a mid range unit. In that regard they function the same.

A) So do Sisters, IG and IQ forces.
B) So does every army in the friggin' game. And the midrange unit is in practice a shortrange unit - they need to be within 12" to be at their most effective, and the long-range unit is rarely used.

tsuro wrote:They have an elite core who alone have access to terminator armour. In that regard they function the same.

So? Every army has elites, Sometimes they're even extremely similar.

tsuro wrote:It is fallacious to say that because the chapter is sometimes different they are always different. That point is unarguable.
The Space Wolves are more similar to marines than they are different.

On the other hand, for SW, it's not that much of a stretch. They're marines, and they're in power armour with mostly bolters. That's pretty much where the similarites end, apart from overly superficial ones.

Demogerg wrote:lets all just stop hating each other and direct that negative attitude towards something useful, like bashing ShumaGorath.

regarding my previous post and Gwars response

1. understandably, Ragnar was the only Blood Claw to ever be appointed directly into the Wolf Guard, but that means that it CAN happen, there is a precedent for early promotion.

2. I am slightly confused by your response here, it seems a bit ambiguous. I knows rules and fluff dont always mix 1-1, but in this case they do give a fluff reason for the HQ rule, and that is because of their fluid structure. Weather this stays or is removed is a little significance, its there now and it represents that they are different.

Demogerg wrote:
2. I am slightly confused by your response here, it seems a bit ambiguous. I knows rules and fluff dont always mix 1-1, but in this case they do give a fluff reason for the HQ rule, and that is because of their fluid structure. Weather this stays or is removed is a little significance, its there now and it represents that they are different

I have no problem with putting in some sort of rule to fit with the fluff that they have a more fluid command structure. However, the notion (that is implied by the rules) that 41 blood claws are fine for Ragnar to look after (749 points) but 42 Blood Claws (763 Points) suddenly needs a Wolf Priest or Wolf Guard Battle Leader to keep them in check, is utterly ridiculous. Even the Ultramarines aren't that idiotic (and that's saying a lot IMO).

And honestly, when was the last time you heard of a Scout becoming a member of the Honour Guard? Never, that's when. It just shows how utterly Bad-Ass you have to be to get into the Wolf Guard at any level, which IMO is another bit of (albeit circumstantial) evidence that Wolf Guards are small and Tight Knit.

The only real flaw in the analysis is while the Ultramarines have a larger pool of potentials, and a more stable induction process, they have an artificial cap on total recruitment.

Wolf priests grab anyone and everyone who they deem could qualify, and they don't stop because of any set organizational limits.

To put it in perspective, the UM come out every year and say we have x slots open. SW take everyone who can hack it. It is conceivable that SW recruit at a higher rate, just like Black Templar, and since they ignore codex limitations they could grow just like the Templar to be larger then codex sized.

But their Attrition rates are far, FAR higher. Not to mention they have a much much lower recruitment pool, even IF they do recruit a higher % of that pool.

And the "artificial Cap" you speak of isnt really that limiting, since there is no Set number for the scout company. All their much huger pool allows them is to recruit only those they are 99% certain will survive and integrate, rather than the "oh, he has a pair and a half, grab him" criteria of the Space Wolves.

BDJV wrote:The closest officially printed numbers for a great company you are going to find is going to be in the original OOP Space Marine game.

Space Marine ( 1st ed epic) had data cards outlining formations. From those data cards, Space Wolves have:

Actually those cards came in the 2nd edition. Space Marine was actually the 1st ed and was entirely about the Horus Heresy, and those cards only detailed generic Marine Units.

I did post about the cards earlier in the thread.. Obviously I am doomed to be forever the "invisible" one.

AdrianG wrote:

BDJV wrote:The closest officially printed numbers for a great company you are going to find is going to be in the original OOP Space Marine game.

Space Marine ( 1st ed epic) had data cards outlining formations. From those data cards, Space Wolves have:

Actually those cards came in the 2nd edition. Space Marine was actually the 1st ed and was entirely about the Horus Heresy, and those cards only detailed generic Marine Units.

I did post about the cards earlier in the thread.. Obviously I am doomed to be forever the "invisible" one.

Ah, thanks for pointing out the 2nd ed thing; it's still a far better game than the current Epic!

Your not invisible, I was just re-adding it with the rest of the SW info from the cards. I was hoping to at least get someone else to actually notice and maybe add it to the discussion. Unfortunately my post like yours was largely ignored.

I may have made a mention to the Epic 40k cards, but i dont play Epic, so I did not know

Gwar! wrote:But their Attrition rates are far, FAR higher. Not to mention they have a much much lower recruitment pool, even IF they do recruit a higher % of that pool.

And the "artificial Cap" you speak of isnt really that limiting, since there is no Set number for the scout company.

Yes there is, it's 100, just like the other companies. It's mentioned in the first paragraph of the SM codex, p16. The chart on the next page fails to mention that there are only 10 squads, but the text certainly does.

I'm assuming, in regards the percentage of vets, that a chapter is able to average 10%. This is a result of the marines abilities and equipment which should be similar with the wolves, unless you're going to argue that the wolves are inferior due to their genetic instability and so die more easily. Otherwise I have to assume that their higher attrition rates are due to carelessness with less experienced wolves and they lose a higher proportion of younger wolves than other chapter's do. If this is not the case then an overall higher attrition rate would eventually render the great companies bereft of any vets at all.

By the way, why are they called great companies when the original great companies of the legion were equivalent to chapters? Doesn't that in itself suggest that the Wolves have considerably larger numbers than even 1500?

cadbren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:But their Attrition rates are far, FAR higher. Not to mention they have a much much lower recruitment pool, even IF they do recruit a higher % of that pool.

And the "artificial Cap" you speak of isnt really that limiting, since there is no Set number for the scout company.

Yes there is, it's 100, just like the other companies. It's mentioned in the first paragraph of the SM codex, p16. The chart on the next page fails to mention that there are only 10 squads, but the text certainly does.

Do you even have the same codex as the rest of us?

Page 16 wrote: The Chapter's 10th Company is its Scout Company consisting of a number of Scout squads. Scouts are youths who have been recruited and partially transformed into Space Marines.
Until their physical transformation and training is complete they fight as Scouts. The Codex Astartes dictates no formal size for a Scout Company as the rate of recruitment is not a fixed amount.

Emphasis mine. Now, as you have failed on such a basic point, I Will contend that the rest of your post is also mindless drivel and I shall not bother to even try and answer it.

I hope that everyone reading and contributing to this thread does realize that GW routinely changes the fluff as it suits them and is not above putting contradictory fluff in different sources.

In other words, you can't trust anything that GW writes about anything.

GW has never given a 'firm' number for the size of the Space Wolf Chapter. That is likely deliberate. SW appears to be larger than a Codex Chapter, but it's not clear is that is 2x or 10x. While the Legion was 'broken up', it's not clear if Russ split the Legion in two or put 1,000 wolves in the successor chapter and kept the balance in the Space Wolf Chapter. And, it's possible that their were other successor chapters that have been lost in name and/or body in the past 10,000 years. Due to prolonged deployments of the Great Companies and high attrition rates of the Blood Claws, the number of Space Wolves at any time is highly variable.

Wait until the next SW codex hits and see what it says.

Allright, so you've established that regular SM *can* recruit as many scouts as they wish (not a point I've argued against in any case). Question remains, do they?

For one, it also states that aspiring marines remain scouts until their training and physical transformation are complete - I see no indication that they remain scouts until such time as they are needed as full battle brother.
To me, it seems far more plausible that Codex Chapters recruit only as many scouts as they need to maintain (/recapture - Crimson Fists, UM after Battle for Macragge) battle strength across the chapter, and no more.

dietrich wrote:I hope that everyone reading and contributing to this thread does realize that GW routinely changes the fluff as it suits them and is not above putting contradictory fluff in different sources.

In other words, you can't trust anything that GW writes about anything.

GW has never given a 'firm' number for the size of the Space Wolf Chapter. That is likely deliberate. SW appears to be larger than a Codex Chapter, but it's not clear is that is 2x or 10x. While the Legion was 'broken up', it's not clear if Russ split the Legion in two or put 1,000 wolves in the successor chapter and kept the balance in the Space Wolf Chapter. And, it's possible that their were other successor chapters that have been lost in name and/or body in the past 10,000 years. Due to prolonged deployments of the Great Companies and high attrition rates of the Blood Claws, the number of Space Wolves at any time is highly variable.

Wait until the next SW codex hits and see what it says.

Oh I understand that perfectly, that's why Most of my Original Post doest deal with fluff but rather applies logical thought to what we already know.

Gwar! wrote:

cadbren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:But their Attrition rates are far, FAR higher. Not to mention they have a much much lower recruitment pool, even IF they do recruit a higher % of that pool.

And the "artificial Cap" you speak of isnt really that limiting, since there is no Set number for the scout company.

Yes there is, it's 100, just like the other companies. It's mentioned in the first paragraph of the SM codex, p16. The chart on the next page fails to mention that there are only 10 squads, but the text certainly does.

Do you even have the same codex as the rest of us?

Page 16 wrote: The Chapter's 10th Company is its Scout Company consisting of a number of Scout squads. Scouts are youths who have been recruited and partially transformed into Space Marines.
Until their physical transformation and training is complete they fight as Scouts. The Codex Astartes dictates no formal size for a Scout Company as the rate of recruitment is not a fixed amount.

Emphasis mine. Now, as you have failed on such a basic point, I Will contend that the rest of your post is also mindless drivel and I shall not bother to even try and answer it.

Codex SM p16:

" Die 10te kompanie eines ordens ist die scout-companie mit insgesamt 10 scout-trupps"

Translated = 10th company has 10 scout-squads.

As scout squads consist of 5-10 scouts, it is a max number of 10x10 = 100 mentioned at page 16.

I can't believe people are getting worked up over GW giving conflicting numbers for the size of the Scout Company in a codex chapter.

Especially considering its just a poor translation.

Newsflash: The ENGLISH codex written by ENGLISH people in ENGLAND is more correct than some German Hack Job.

Gwar, come on now, you should know that all Codexes are considered equally valid, otherwise we could still not use Redeemers, Crusaders, etc. because they are only available if using the German faq

To be valid in 3 nations of this planet is enough for me

But :

Codex sm 1998 had:

Ultramarines scout company
-chaplain,apothecary.
-3 veteranseargents.
-scout squads consisting of:

-2x10
-2x8
-3x6
-5x5

-7 seargents, 17 aspirants.

so only more than 100 with officers included back in 1998.
Pic on page 0 of this old dex shows the UM, hints on more than 1000 if you count them, but still less than 100 scouts there.

Definite answer may be in the new codex SW, its not in C:SM since the max size hasn't changed the last 10 years.

Demogerg wrote:Gwar, come on now, you should know that all Codexes are considered equally valid, otherwise we could still not use Redeemers, Crusaders, etc. because they are only available if using the German faq

Actually you are wrong there, both the English and German FAQ allows Space Wolves to use All Kinds of Land Speeders, Dreadnoughts (the exception is the Ven Dread) and Land Raiders. The only thing the German FAQ does different is change the points costs for Rhinos and Razorbacks

1hadhq wrote:Definite answer may be in the new codex SW, its not in C:SM since the max size hasn't changed the last 10 years.

And as I have showen, this "max size" is wrong, according to GW's own Material. Chapters are more than 1000 marines, always have been and always will. The "1000 Marines" is just an idealised thing to use as Propaganda.

Gwar! wrote:

Demogerg wrote:Gwar, come on now, you should know that all Codexes are considered equally valid, otherwise we could still not use Redeemers, Crusaders, etc. because they are only available if using the German faq

Actually you are wrong there, both the English and German FAQ allows Space Wolves to use All Kinds of Land Speeders, Dreadnoughts (the exception is the Ven Dread) and Land Raiders. The only thing the German FAQ does different is change the points costs for Rhinos and Razorbacks

I was under the impression that the German FAQ had more accurately described that you can use the Land Speeder Storm and Ironclad Dreadnought, and gave the correct point costs for the rhinos/razorbacks, where as the English FAQ merely says all varients of land speeders and dreadnoughts, which creates a debateable point on Ironclads and Land speeder storms, because they have separate entries in the Codex, which under "unit composition" the type of unit is listed differently.

regardless of this point, if any non-English language FAQ, Errata, or Codex can be taken as a ruling, (and the point costs for rhinos and razorbacks can be) then as a source of fluff material they must be equally authoritative.

please do not dismiss a Codex just because it was sold in a language other than your own.

I am not dismissing it "just because it is in another language" I am saying that when there are contradictions, the words of the people who actually wrote the codex should be given more weight than some translators.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Definite answer may be in the new codex SW, its not in C:SM since the max size hasn't changed the last 10 years.

And as I have showen, this "max size" is wrong, according to GW's own Material. Chapters are more than 1000 marines, always have been and always will. The "1000 Marines" is just an idealised thing to use as Propaganda.

Oh great, cutting to pieces for new context..
Did i disagree with more than 1000 marines anywhere in my post?

Size of scout company hasn't changed and max number of marines in a chapter does not affect this at all.

There is still the chart in codex SM 1998 and i doubt anyone translates numbers.

A little hint: as per GW on their download section mentions less errata for translated material since some errata are included.

Its ok to believe in your own source.

The corresponding to the SW subdex source is this old codex, so to decide how many scouts the UM have or how fast they replace losses could maybe seen as presented by
GW at page 46.

Here's another argument that the Scout Company is, in fact, not that much bigger than a regular one, and that Marine chapters do not have that many scouts ready and waiting for someone to die so they can get the final implants:

The Battle for Macragge. After this battle, the UM were severely damaged; entire 1st Cpny wiped out, and presumably (no official numbers are given that I'm aware of) substantial casualties among the regular marines as well. If the UMs did indeed recruit to their heart's content from the gazillions of people in Ultramar, they would *not* have needed a hundred years to recover - all they'd have needed to do was take enough of those scouts that were ready for their final implants and power armour, equip them, and voila - everything except the 1st Cpny fixed.
Take a few more of those scouts, promote the (now considerably experienced) brothers from the Battle Cpny's that survived to the 1st Cpny, and voila. Recovered Chapter. Might have taken a few months, a few years even, but not a whole century.

Edit: On a completely unrelated note, why have my arguments aside from my first post in this thread been ignored so far? I'm starting to feel a little underrated here . Or am I flabbergasting everyone with my consummately logical and irrefutable arguments? Yeah, that's it. Must be .
(For those of a literal turn of mind: I'm joking .)

Ermm people need a little reminder concerning scouts in Space Wolves... They're elites.
The nearest equivalent to a scout company in SW's would be Blood Claws.
And BC packs can have up to 15 marines each.
So the the scout company argument IMO is pretty redundant. Besides which they're not a Codex Chapter.

I read through the first post then decided to not bother with EVERYTHING ELSE! Holy gak there's a lot of responses... I do have one problem with something you said in the very FIRST post.

You claimed that only those SW who didn't die from a fatal or near fatal wound, or at least were crazy enough to get there...

Well, if you recall back to the first book, I'd say that's a big no no. There were people who got there from showing combat prowess, such as taking on a troll or hunting a whale perfectly. So really, your pool of choices just grew because now you don't have to worry about finding dead cantidates.

Also, when you spoke of the ritual of the geneseed and organ surgery, you gotta remember something. Yes, this is tradition. But hell, they have just as good instruments and such as Ultrasmurfs.

All in all, the fluff isn't a perfect thing. If you look down to the last crossed 'F' you'll never be able to find it perfect. Fluff is there for fun and enjoyment, not there to explain everything down to the nail.

Gwar! wrote: Do you even have the same codex as the rest of us?

Page 16 wrote: The Chapter's 10th Company is its Scout Company consisting of a number of Scout squads. Scouts are youths who have been recruited and partially transformed into Space Marines.
Until their physical transformation and training is complete they fight as Scouts. The Codex Astartes dictates no formal size for a Scout Company as the rate of recruitment is not a fixed amount.

Emphasis mine. Now, as you have failed on such a basic point, I Will contend that the rest of your post is also mindless drivel and I shall not bother to even try and answer it.

From the first paragraph of the english version of the codex it clearly states: "The official fighting strength of each company is made up of ten squads each of ten Space Marines led by a Sergeant..."
This means that each company has an official compliment of 100 marines including the 10th scout company. I give more weight to that line than the vague paragraph you quoted as it conforms to the 1000 basic marine idea of 10 companies of 100 marines each making a chapter of 1000 (the extras have already been discussed). As the leading paragraph, it also has more weight than any following paragraph at it is setting out the basics of the structure. The fact that the rest of the article is poorly conceived is neither here nor there, the first is the more important and it clearly states 100.

You did by some stretch of the imagination read the rest of the codex where it goes and lists that in addition to that each company has a dedicated Captain, Apothecary and Chaplain, along with the HQ staff etc. The addition of the Captain alone means there is more than 100 per company and your oddball idea of it being locked in at 1000 marines falls to bits.

And did you also notice that the quote you mentioned said "Space Marine", Scouts are not full Space Marines yet, so are obviously not included.

P.S. I love your little quip about how "the rest of the article is poorly conceived" yet fail to then tell us how. And then again you decide to talk about 100 man companies, when I have shown time and time again that a company is 103 Marines.

Next time try to analyse the Big Picture as I have rather than focusing on a single out of context line.

In conclusion, if you are going to insult me, at least have the balls to do it up front, not behind some tacky veneer of argument.

Gwar! wrote:Oh I understand that perfectly, that's why Most of my Original Post doest deal with fluff but rather applies logical thought to what we already know.

Unless you've actually met a space wolf then what you "already know" is based on the fluff you halfwit! You yourself have already denied the FOC as being relevant as they don't follow the fluff well enough and of course this topic is in the fluff section. How about a bit of consistency on your behalf eh?

Logically speaking a great company is much larger than a codex company or it wouldn't be called a great company now would it?

cadbren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Oh I understand that perfectly, that's why Most of my Original Post doest deal with fluff but rather applies logical thought to what we already know.

Unless you've actually met a space wolf then what you "already know" is based on the fluff you halfwit! You yourself have already denied the FOC as being relevant as they don't follow the fluff well enough and of course this topic is in the fluff section. How about a bit of consistency on your behalf eh?

Logically speaking a great company is much larger than a codex company or it wouldn't be called a great company now would it?

Logically Speaking a Great Tit would be bigger than you but it isn't is it?

And yet again you are focusing on out of context comments. If you actually read my Original Post (something I highly doubt) you would see that, where possible, I have tried to incorporate what fluff we have, while filling in the gaps with reasoning and Logic.

Just because something has the word "Great" in it doesn't mean it is bigger.

Gwar! wrote:You did by some stretch of the imagination read the rest of the codex where it goes and lists that in addition to that each company has a dedicated Captain, Apothecary and Chaplain, along with the HQ staff etc. The addition of the Captain alone means there is more than 100 per company and your oddball idea of it being locked in at 1000 marines falls to bits.

Ya, my oldball idea that is mentioned in every Space Marine description. I've already stated that the 1000 refers to the basc squad strength and not the entire chapter.

And did you also notice that the quote you mentioned said "Space Marine", Scouts are not full Space Marines yet, so are obviously not included.

The 10th company is counted as one of the 10 companies of the chapter, again it's not my idea.

P.S. I love your little quip about how "the rest of the article is poorly conceived" yet fail to then tell us how. And then again you decide to talk about 100 man companies, when I have shown time and time again that a company is 103 Marines.

Perhaps the quip was wrong as to explain it would be too off topic. I'm really not sure where your 103 figure for a company comes from, I see it mentioned nowhere and it appears to assume an absence of a command squad.

10 Squads of 10 men, Captain, Chaplain and Attached Apothecary. The command Squad is made up of 1st company veterans.

There is your 103 man Company.

Ya know, at first I was angry and frustrated at your idiocy but now I realise I should Pity you. That you have to resort to out of context lines to try and justify yourself, when all I was hoping to spark was some good natured debate and banter, which you seem to take great pleasure in destroying, speaks volumes about you and your character.

Gwar! wrote:10 Squads of 10 men, Captain, Chaplain and Attached Apothecary. The command Squad is made up of 1st company veterans.

There is your 103 man Company.

Ya know, at first I was angry and frustrated at your idiocy but now I realise I should Pity you. That you have to resort to out of context lines to try and justify yourself, when all I was hoping to spark was some good natured debate and banter, which you seem to take great pleasure in destroying, speaks volumes about you and your character.

You've provided ample evidence of your churlishness in this thread so don't play the innocent game mate. Now where does it say that the veterans of the company command squads are pulled from the first company? This thread has been nothing more than you making an assumption about the size of the great companies and attempting to run off anyone who disagrees with you. I thank you for one thing though and that is that going through the fluff I have I've realised just how much inconsistancy there is.

cadbren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:10 Squads of 10 men, Captain, Chaplain and Attached Apothecary. The command Squad is made up of 1st company veterans.

There is your 103 man Company.

Ya know, at first I was angry and frustrated at your idiocy but now I realise I should Pity you. That you have to resort to out of context lines to try and justify yourself, when all I was hoping to spark was some good natured debate and banter, which you seem to take great pleasure in destroying, speaks volumes about you and your character.

You've provided ample evidence of your churlishness in this thread so don't play the innocent game mate. Now where does it say that the veterans of the company command squads are pulled from the first company? This thread has been nothing more than you making an assumption about the size of the great companies and attempting to run off anyone who disagrees with you. I thank you for one thing though and that is that going through the fluff I have I've realised just how much inconsistancy there is.

Well, I say the Command Squad is made up of 1st company veterans because if the 5 Members were part of the Company, that would make each company 108 marines, and I didn't want to cause even more of an Aneurysm. But yeah, the fluff is Inconsistent, that's the WHOLE POINT of this thread, to take the inconsistency and try and work out the most likely situation. It's one huge thought experiment. What steams me up is the fact that I have people saying "Oh you're wrong!" and then Swearing Blind a Codex Chapter can never ever be more than EXACTLY 1000 Marines, when the fluff is inconsistent in both situations.

Good stuff good stuff!

Gwar! wrote:But their Attrition rates are far, FAR higher. Not to mention they have a much much lower recruitment pool, even IF they do recruit a higher % of that pool.

And the "artificial Cap" you speak of isnt really that limiting, since there is no Set number for the scout company. All their much huger pool allows them is to recruit only those they are 99% certain will survive and integrate, rather than the "oh, he has a pair and a half, grab him" criteria of the Space Wolves.

That may not be exactly true. Space marine fluff is full of stories on how exacting the recruitment process is. Even the UM fluff shows how limited their implantation process is. The difference in attrition rates during the process of creating a space marine does not necessarily have to be as large as you think it is. In the world of 40K mankind's technology is designed to be relatively durable and accessible to the ignorant. While the UM have large amounts of process tied up in their rituals there is no assurance that it is all beneficial. Much of it is probably entirely unnecessary, given all the "Dark age of technology" fluff we've got and it is clear that the UM process takes longer then the SW process.

Moreover, it does not seem logical to assume the UM have a scout company that exceeds the size of a normal company by more then 150%. It took them 250 years to replace their loss of the 1st company, which would not have been the case if they had a large influx of scouts to replace members of other companies promoted to the 1st.

Realistically, you would be correct. The Western Cultural style that Ultramar emulates has shown throughout earth's history to be able to field more soldiers of a higher quality then any other culture. However we are dealing with a fictional setting where the rules are different. In 40k, scraping by for the first 15 years of your life on a primitive world where you are lucky to live to 30 and are armed with two sticks and a rock gives you superior skills and tactical sense to someone who had good nutrition, excellent training and the wealth to spend every day training for war.

Ultramar does indeed include numerous planets (8 systems I think).
The thing is that not all of these will produce very many, if any, SM worthy recruits. I forget the names but one planet is just a big forest full of lumberjacks whilst a number are just agri worlds and then theres their ship building world which would recruit a grand total of all, except for the fleets.

The equation is sound but it seems to me that you are including populations from planets that have no ability or right to generate astartes grade recruits.

Shred at your leisure.

Stygian Mole wrote:The equation is sound but it seems to me that you are including populations from planets that have no ability or right to generate astartes grade recruits.

Dont forget that the Total Population is in the Trillions. While it has a couple of Agri worlds yes, most are hive worlds.

Ultramar doesnt have a population of trillions. Think about it. A trillion is 1000 000 000 000.
Your avg hive world, lets say, Necromunda has a population of +-32 billion yes? Now, Ultramar has +- 8 systems (Macragge, Prandium, Fleet Base, Forest, 2 Agri and lets say the rest are hive) that means you'll have around 75 Bil from the hives. The other worlds have populations of their own so they would take the total to roughly (and I am estimating here) 135 Billion souls. Most of these would be involved in the speciality of their worlds (agri for agri, tech for forges) so Ultramar's military would come to (and this is a generous estimate) 25 billion (including support and admin personnel).

It just seems to me that trillions is a bit of an optomistic term to be using outside of segmentum scales.

True, they do not have Trillions of people, but Ultramar does have at LEAST 100 Billion, which is still hundreds of times more than Fenris.
However, Necromunda has far more than 32 Billion (not sure where you got that number from) but you are vastly Underestimating the Population of Hive Worlds.

Picked up this little gem from Lexicanum (please don't hate me):

There are probably more people on Necromunda than have ever lived in the entire history of Terra up until the end of the twentieth century. An attempted census of Trazior Hive four thousand years ago revealed an estimated population of a billion in the upper habitation levels alone - no further attempt has been made to count Necromunda's population in Trazior or any other of the several thousand hives on the planet.

Furthermore, current estimates place that number (the number of people ever born until today) at 106,456,367,669 or 106 Billion.

Now, considering that is a Full Hive World (THE Hive World so to speak), and Ultramar has Several Systems, most of Which are also heavily Populated (not to the extent of Necromunda, but still very heavily populated), it is not beyond the realms of possibility that approximately 100 Billion people live within the Ultramar Sector. Lets not forget that Ultramar is Spread over a few Star Systems, it's not all one Solar System, so there are probably a few minor worlds here and there was well, and lets not forget populated moons etc)

Ok, Shameless bump here.

Anyone else got comments?

Do they only get new guys from Fenris or are they also known to just pull people they think are awesome from anywhere they are at the time.

I think the Space Wolves might have more Marines do to them being (supposedly) some of the longest lived of the Marines also if they recruit just one person a year from every battle and there are a thousand battles then they have one thousand neophytes, some of which will get lost to implants or not returning to the fang, and then probably one third to half of them will die before reaching the position of Grey Hunter their numbers would still be higher than most other chapters.

BrotherStynier wrote:Do they only get new guys from Fenris or are they also known to just pull people they think are awesome from anywhere they are at the time.

There has never been any mention of them ever recruiting from anywhere but Fenris, to my knowledge (which is pretty good).

BrotherStynier wrote:I think the Space Wolves might have more Marines do to them being (supposedly) some of the longest lived of the Marines also if they recruit just one person a year from every battle and there are a thousand battles then they have one thousand neophytes, some of which will get lost to implants or not returning to the fang, and then probably one third to half of them will die before reaching the position of Grey Hunter their numbers would still be higher than most other chapters.

I already covered that. They are long lived, second only to the Blood Angels, but their rate of Attrition is far, far higher. Think of it the same way as the middle ages. Lots of people died young, but if, and only if, you managed to make it to your late 20's, you had a good chance of not dying for a long time. Coupled with the Lower Recruitment Rate and Base, suggests a Smaller, more Elite Legion.

Gwar! wrote:They are long lived, second only to the Blood Angels, but their rate of Attrition is far, far higher. Think of it the same way as the middle ages. Lots of people died young, but if, and only if, you managed to make it to your late 20's, you had a good chance of not dying for a long time. Coupled with the Lower Recruitment Rate and Base, suggests a Smaller, more Elite Legion.

So you claim a higher attrition rate than Blood Angels
Did you not include the "losses" of the BA (hint: deathcompany) but include SW "losses" ( wulfen ) ?
Or just seek a way to be the most elite of all chapters

It doesn't strengthen your point to insist on Deathworlds = small chapters when some Legions had placed their base on such worlds.

Gwar! wrote: Coupled with the Lower Recruitment Rate and Base

This is what we have been debating really.

size estimates have never been given for how large Fenris is, so even with a lower population density we do not know if the overall population count is lower. Untill some numbers start popping out of GW fluff we will never really know.

I would like to mention the Fang, being one of the largest fortresses in the Imperium would require a larger world to support its rediculous-massiveness (so tall it is a space dock) Imagine a basketball with a traffic cone on it vs a hot air ballon with a traffic cone on it.

Also, the recruitment rate has never been set either. where as Ultrasmurfs recruit when necesary from the nobility who have chosen to become spase mureehns, space wolves watch the clans and take people who are badass.

how many posh "nobility" here on earth today are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager its not a relatively high number at all
how many poor people in the violence ridden regions here on earth are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager that this number far exceeds that of the "nobility"

1hadhq wrote:So you claim a higher attrition rate than Blood Angels

Yes, because Blood Angels spend a Year sleeping, Mellowing out to allow the Implants to Mature, while Space Wolves send in their Unbalanced new Recruits with no more instruction than "Bullets come out of here. Go"

1hadhq wrote:Did you not include the "losses" of the BA (hint: deathcompany) but include SW "losses" ( wulfen ) ?

Death Company are not losses. Death Company can be Controled by the High Priests and used in combat. Wulfen cannot.

1hadhq wrote:It doesn't strengthen your point to insist on Deathworlds = small chapters when some Legions had placed their base on such worlds.

Fact #1) The original Legions were mostly comprised of Terran Marines
Fact #2) Recruitment was a lot higher because they were able to retrofit older males
Fact #3) The time it took was a lot lot less than it is now (in fact it is one of the reasons for the Heresy Apparently)

Isn't it odd that two of the First Founding Legions who recruit off one world exclusively (Salamanders and Space Wolves) have always been described as the smallest legions? or maybe there might just be something too it.


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Demogerg wrote:size estimates have never been given for how large Fenris is, so even with a lower population density we do not know if the overall population count is lower. Untill some numbers start popping out of GW fluff we will never really know.

Yes, because worlds that are mostly comprised of Ocean and Volcanic Islands can have Hundreds of Billions on them and stay at a Regressed Technological level.

Also, the recruitment rate has never been set either. where as Ultrasmurfs recruit when necesary from the nobility who have chosen to become spase mureehns, space wolves watch the clans and take people who are badass.

how many posh "nobility" here on earth today are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager its not a relatively high number at all
how many poor people in the violence ridden regions here on earth are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager that this number far exceeds that of the "nobility"

No offence, but considering the fact that the Nobility will be conditioning their sons to potentially become a SPESS MAHRINE up until the age of 11 or 12 or so, and the fact they take Hive Gangers just as readily, kind of make your "theory" kind of, well, wrong.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:So you claim a higher attrition rate than Blood Angels

Yes, because Blood Angels spend a Year sleeping, Mellowing out to allow the Implants to Mature, while Space Wolves send in their Unbalanced new Recruits with no more instruction than "Bullets come out of here. Go"

1hadhq wrote:Did you not include the "losses" of the BA (hint: deathcompany) but include SW "losses" ( wulfen ) ?

Death Company are not losses. Death Company can be Controled by the High Priests and used in combat. Wulfen cannot.

Wulfen are controlled by Wolf Priests See: Apocalypse 13th company datasheet.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:It doesn't strengthen your point to insist on Deathworlds = small chapters when some Legions had placed their base on such worlds.

Fact #1) The original Legions were mostly comprised of Terran Marines

The original troops in each of the legions were mostly from Terra, however, they began recruiting from the planets of each primarch soon after the primarchs discovery, and it was quite some time before G-man decreed that the legions be broken up, giving plenty of time to flesh out with proper marines from the correct planet.

Gwar! wrote:
Fact #2) Recruitment was a lot higher because they were able to retrofit older males

This is an assumption, Correlation is different from causation, They were able to retrofit older males, recruitment MAY have been higher because of this.

Gwar! wrote:
Fact #3) The time it took was a lot lot less than it is now (in fact it is one of the reasons for the Heresy Apparently)

This is relative, and if worded correctly to be more specific, then yes, it would be a fact. This fact also supports my arguement for your point #1

Gwar! wrote:
Isn't it odd that two of the First Founding Legions who recruit off one world exclusively (Salamanders and Space Wolves) have always been described as the smallest legions? or maybe there might just be something too it.


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Demogerg wrote:size estimates have never been given for how large Fenris is, so even with a lower population density we do not know if the overall population count is lower. Untill some numbers start popping out of GW fluff we will never really know.

Yes, because worlds that are mostly comprised of Ocean and Volcanic Islands can have Hundreds of Billions on them and stay at a Regressed Technological level.

Technological advacement comes from the application of division of duties, smaller clans with low population density would not have the opprotunity to advance technologically. For example, if you look at the total population and population density of specific tribes in the polynesian islands, you will see that it requires both density and quantity to develop new technology. Also looking at these tribes you can see that simply being divided by a (relatively) small amount of water can prevent the spread of said technologies. Your sarcastic quip about my statement holds no weight and has no arguement behind it.

Gwar! wrote:

Also, the recruitment rate has never been set either. where as Ultrasmurfs recruit when necesary from the nobility who have chosen to become spase mureehns, space wolves watch the clans and take people who are badass.

how many posh "nobility" here on earth today are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager its not a relatively high number at all
how many poor people in the violence ridden regions here on earth are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager that this number far exceeds that of the "nobility"

No offence, but considering the fact that the Nobility will be conditioning their sons to potentially become a SPESS MAHRINE up until the age of 11 or 12 or so, and the fact they take Hive Gangers just as readily, kind of make your "theory" kind of, well, wrong.

You have already heard my counter arguements as to why I think that most people would not want to become a Space Marine, and I think your "theory" is kind of, well, wrong.

Demogerg wrote:Wulfen are controlled by Wolf Priests See: Apocalypse 13th company datasheet.

And this is the point where you stop Posting about Space Wolves.

13th Company are NOT Space Wolves. 13th Company are Heresy Era Wolves who have been trapped in the Warp, and thus have regressed into Wulfen. Normal Space Wolves do not use Wulfen at all.

Good day to you sir.

No, I am serious. If you are not going to do your research on the Space Wolves, do not post in a Thread about them.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:So you claim a higher attrition rate than Blood Angels

Yes, because Blood Angels spend a Year sleeping, Mellowing out to allow the Implants to Mature, while Space Wolves send in their Unbalanced new Recruits with no more instruction than "Bullets come out of here. Go"

Is there anything like this known for SW: Blood Angels / Red fury ( BL / j.swallow) , pointing out that BA lost enough marines to need their successors to refill their ranks?

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Did you not include the "losses" of the BA (hint: deathcompany) but include SW "losses" ( wulfen ) ?

Death Company are not losses. Death Company can be Controled by the High Priests and used in combat. Wulfen cannot.

Death companists are lost/crazed/not recovered, but wulfen can form a company ( 13th ), so why consider DC as not lost ?
How many BA have followed Mephiston and lived it through?
Becoming a wulfen may be a point of no return, still the danger of it isn't greater than the BA's curse.

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:It doesn't strengthen your point to insist on Deathworlds = small chapters when some Legions had placed their base on such worlds.

Fact #1) The original Legions were mostly comprised of Terran Marines
Fact #2) Recruitment was a lot higher because they were able to retrofit older males
Fact #3) The time it took was a lot lot less than it is now (in fact it is one of the reasons for the Heresy Apparently)

Isn't it odd that two of the First Founding Legions who recruit off one world exclusively (Salamanders and Space Wolves) have always been described as the smallest legions? or maybe there might just be something too it.

SW small? Won't work with a CC-happy legion....
So, IIRC, Sallies / Raven Guard / Iron Hands were some of the smallest Legions.
And they had to recover from their "adventures" with only their homeworld as backup.
There may be not X-thousands of SW's or SW+successors as possible for other chapters.
But less SW than Sallies/RG/IH ? Small numbers will work with different tactics. With SW tactics, you would never see any SW after M33, because they had depleted their numbers too much, if there is no good recrutement source.

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Demogerg wrote:
Also, the recruitment rate has never been set either.

There is an example for Smurfs, but the OP ignores it...

Still want to see/hear about a source to find for SW recrutement rates.

Ok Gwar, then what about the Mark of the Wulfen, the player, as the commander, still has full control over the units direction. He just simply cannot be placed with another squad

1hadhq wrote:Death companists are lost/crazed/not recovered, but wulfen can form a company ( 13th ), so why consider DC as not lost ?

You stop posting as well. Get your facts straight before posting or do not post at all.


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Demogerg wrote:Ok Gwar, then what about the Mark of the Wulfen, the player, as the commander, still has full control over the units direction. He just simply cannot be placed with another squad

The "Mark of the Wulfen" is something certain Space Wolves suffer from. Under Stress they regress to a Bestial form, and change back after the Stress has passed. They are not like 13th company wulfen, who have fully and irreversibly regressed. This is normally Marked out by the Wolf Preists with some form of Ritual tattoo and kept under an extra careful eye, just in case.

Gwar! wrote:Fact #1) The original Legions were mostly comprised of Terran Marines
Fact #2) Recruitment was a lot higher because they were able to retrofit older males
Fact #3) The time it took was a lot lot less than it is now (in fact it is one of the reasons for the Heresy Apparently)

Isn't it odd that two of the First Founding Legions who recruit off one world exclusively (Salamanders and Space Wolves) have always been described as the smallest legions? or maybe there might just be something too it.

The original Space Marines were all Terrans. When the Great Crusade started, and the Emperor started finding the Primarchs, each Legion adopted their Primarch's homeworld, and in general, only recruited from there (Night Lords, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc.). To my recollection, the Ultramarines are the only Legion known to recruit from several worlds. Some of the current Chapters recruit from multiple worlds, but in general, they only visit each world every several years (and it's usually only the fleet based chapters).

In Tales of Heresy, we find out that the 13th Company of the Space Wolf Legion were the housecarls of Russ. Russ didn't want them to join the Legion, but they insisted. Most of they didn't make it through the process, but some did, and they some of the toughest mofos in a Legion full of tough mofos.

At the time of the Heresy, they didn't give recruits as much time to 'absorb' the geneseed and implants. Due to some instability, they now try to give them more time to fully acclimate to each step. It does seem like SWs follow the Heresy-era process and tend to 'rush' the recruits through the implantation process.

It doesn't seem like the SWs have a problem maintaining an adequate standing force. Whatever the population of Fenris, it seems sufficient to keep they at operational strength. Also, GW has gone a little back and forth on the fluff. Some sources (in particular, second edition codex and the SW book series) suggests that individuals are promoted from recruit to Blood Claw to Grey Hunter and up. The third edition codex states that the whole pack is promoted as a single group.

Gwar! wrote:
No, I am serious. If you are not going to do your research on the Space Wolves, do not post in a Thread about them.

Hey now, no reason for personal attacks. You and I both know that we are not ill-informed, we just have a difference of opinion.

dietrich wrote:To my recollection, the Ultramarines are the only Legion known to recruit from several worlds.

Dark Angels?


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Demogerg wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, I am serious. If you are not going to do your research on the Space Wolves, do not post in a Thread about them.

Hey now, no reason for personal attacks. You and I both know that we are not ill-informed, we just have a difference of opinion.

Not a difference of opinion. You are just wrong. You are claiming that Space Wolves use Wulfen, when they do not.

Gwar! wrote:You stop posting as well. Get your facts straight before posting or do not post at all.

So, to follow your idea, if someone without facts shouldn't post, then I am sorry to inform you, it will be silent without you.

1hadhq wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Death companists are lost/crazed/not recovered, but wulfen can form a company ( 13th ), so why consider DC as not lost ?

You stop posting as well. Get your facts straight before posting or do not post at all.

So, to follow your idea, if someone without facts shouldn't post, then I am sorry to inform you, it will be silent without you

I'm sorry, I didn't realise I was the one saying Wulfen were part of the Space Wolves.

Oh wait I wasn't. Look, if you are not going to post Constructively, while making sure you are not posting rubbish, do not post at all, Please.

Gwar! wrote:

dietrich wrote:To my recollection, the Ultramarines are the only Legion known to recruit from several worlds.

Dark Angels?


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Demogerg wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, I am serious. If you are not going to do your research on the Space Wolves, do not post in a Thread about them.

Hey now, no reason for personal attacks. You and I both know that we are not ill-informed, we just have a difference of opinion.

Not a difference of opinion. You are just wrong. You are claiming that Space Wolves use Wulfen, when they do not.

Ok, I was in error about Wulfen, I'll admit that.

But to tell me that i should not post in a thread about Space Wolves is just plain rude.

EDIT* and to be fair, I have been playing Space Wolves for so long I have forgotten more about Space Wolves than most people will ever know.

Demogerg wrote:EDIT* and to be fair, I have been playing Space Wolves for so long I have forgotten more about Space Wolves than most people will ever know.

Yeah, I am sure. All that Correctness really hurts my brain.

Ok, well I apologise for being so blunt.

Gwar! wrote:

dietrich wrote:To my recollection, the Ultramarines are the only Legion known to recruit from several worlds.

Dark Angels?

I never read a thing about the Lion's traitorous progeny. On principle.

dietrich wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

dietrich wrote:To my recollection, the Ultramarines are the only Legion known to recruit from several worlds.

Dark Angels?

I never read a thing about the Lion's traitorous progeny. On principle.

Know thy enemy is my motto.

Well, considering they don't HAVE a homeworld anymore

Did the DA Legion recruit from worlds besides Caliban, or just the remnant Chapter which is now fleet based? I thought the Legion was confined to Caliban. BTs are also fleet based, and recruit from wherever they happen to be when they run low on neophytes.

dietrich wrote:Did the DA Legion recruit from worlds besides Caliban, or just the remnant Chapter which is now fleet based? I thought the Legion was confined to Caliban. BTs are also fleet based, and recruit from wherever they happen to be when they run low on neophytes.

I think they Used to be only Caliban, but now recruit from multiple worlds as they fly about on The Rock.

So, I was right. The Ultramarines were the only Legion recruiting from multiple worlds. There's several fleet based Chapters that do so now, but they're not Legions.

dietrich wrote:So, I was right. The Ultramarines were the only Legion recruiting from multiple worlds. There's several fleet based Chapters that do so now, but they're not Legions.

Exactly, Ultramarines are the only ones to Recruit from Multiple worlds. They had about 26,000 Marines when the 2nd founding happened, all from the Ultramar Sector. That means the Ultramarines Chapter will ALWAYS be at Full Strength (bar being eaten by Nids) because they have such a huge pool. Which was my point all along.

Gwar! wrote:
I'm sorry, I didn't realise I was the one saying Wulfen were part of the Space Wolves.

Oh wait I wasn't.

Sure
Your own post:

Gwar! wrote:
The "Mark of the Wulfen" is something certain Space Wolves suffer from. Under Stress they regress to a Bestial form, and change back after the Stress has passed. They are not like 13th company wulfen, who have fully and irreversibly regressed. This is normally Marked out by the Wolf Preists with some form of Ritual tattoo and kept under an extra careful eye, just in case.

Shows it.

Gwar! wrote:
Look, if you are not going to post Constructively, while making sure you are not posting rubbish, do not post at all, Please.

Wasn't constructive to provide a source for what i have said?

But its not a problem to leave it alone, since i'm sure you won't provide us with any source to base your claims on.

You do realise the Mark of the Wulfen is NOT the same as Full Blown Wulfen?

Gwar! wrote:There has never been any mention of them ever recruiting from anywhere but Fenris, to my knowledge (which is pretty good).

But there never has been anything that says they don't, I know at times it is implied but still they are Marines they can take pretty much who ever they want.

I already covered that. They are long lived, second only to the Blood Angels, but their rate of Attrition is far, far higher. Think of it the same way as the middle ages. Lots of people died young, but if, and only if, you managed to make it to your late 20's, you had a good chance of not dying for a long time. Coupled with the Lower Recruitment Rate and Base, suggests a Smaller, more Elite Legion.

I would agree that the elder Marines would be the more Elite of the Space Marines but the Blood Claws are still included in the number of personnel available to the Great Companies, so like I said higher recruitment rate would equal larger numbers of Blood Claws, who count towards Company strength regardless of attrition. So they would have large numbers of cannon fodder, big angry cannon fodder. Great Line troops and the best Veterans.

BrotherStynier wrote:

Gwar! wrote:There has never been any mention of them ever recruiting from anywhere but Fenris, to my knowledge (which is pretty good).

But there never has been anything that says they don't, I know at times it is implied but still they are Marines they can take pretty much who ever they want.

Except it is heavily Implied that the Geneseed only seems to work with Humans from Fenris.

How can that be? A specific Gene needed for the geneseed only found in humans from Fenris?

I didn't read the rest of the pages but I found some stuff I would just throw out there.

And then we have Fenris. Fenris is akin to Ultramar in the fact that they are Planets.

I don't care who you are, thats funny, right there.

Sadly there is little to go on regarding the actual practices of how the Ultramarines select their recruits. Do they have recruitment drives? Do they go around rounding up random teenagers? I have not been able to find anything concrete. However, one can assume that because of the civilised nature of the Ultramar worlds, just randomly kidnapping kids would be a bit off, especially since “Throughout Ultramar proud citizens point to public statues of famous Ultramarines who were born to local families. Amongst the older aristocratic dynasties it is a matter of considerable esteem to provide recruits for the Space Marines.”
From that sentence I can sort of see that each person can apply to be tested to see if they are compatible for Astartes training and the most compatible are taken of their own free will.
Apologies for the lack of information on this point as I could not find anything more detailed.

Ever heard of the Agiselus(sp?), it is the system of military academies across Ultramar or on Macragge, one or the other. The system selects those who are deemed the best and they have to reach the Fortress of Hera on their own. It was in one of the Ultramarine Comics if I remember correctly. Check out the BnC Ultramarine sub-forum for some in depth UM knowledge. For reference, I believe one of the test for USSF is a 14 mile ruck through hard country in west Virginia with 50 lbs on your back and a Jerry can as your only water, so add some grimdark and thats probably what it is like for the UM recruits.

Space Wolves: Select whoever had enough balls to have otherwise fatal wounds in barbarian battle.

Brass ones are a requirement of all Marines .

Which brings me to one of the two major advantages I can see that the Space Wolf Geneseed has. The first is Longevity. Wile its true we haven't heard many tales of Ultramarines being so old, that might be because they lose their “edge” a lot faster so are killed in battle before it becomes noticeable. I mean, Logan is one of the oldest Marines there are, second to perhaps Dante (not including freak cases like Chaos Marines, Marines Stuck in the Warp or held in stasis). At 700 years old, he's hardly in the Prime of his life, but shows no signs of being anything but at peak efficiency. Contrast this to the Ultramarines, where Cassius, at a “mere” 400 years old is one of the oldest, most venerable Marines.

Imperial Fists are fairly long lived as well. Ludoldus lived over 1000 years.

Ultramarines: Low level of attrition, in part due to more formal training and in part due to the nature of a Scouts role, that of infiltration and reconnaissance.

I think the attrition is close in the UM's but they can replace them faster, which was the point of this articles was it not? I think the Templars and Space Wolves may have the highest levels, with the Templars likely having the highest. But that is neither here nor there.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:I think the attrition is close in the UM's but they can replace them faster, which was the point of this articles was it not? I think the Templars and Space Wolves may have the highest levels, with the Templars likely having the highest. But that is neither here nor there.

The templars most Certainly have a Higher Attrition rate, but they have the advantage of Recruiting wherever they may be whenever they need. Space Wolves don't.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, because worlds that are mostly comprised of Ocean and Volcanic Islands can have Hundreds of Billions on them and stay at a Regressed Technological level.
Also, the recruitment rate has never been set either. where as Ultrasmurfs recruit when necesary from the nobility who have chosen to become spase mureehns, space wolves watch the clans and take people who are badass.

how many posh "nobility" here on earth today are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager its not a relatively high number at all
how many poor people in the violence ridden regions here on earth are physically fit enough to be in the elite core of any of our militaries? I'd wager that this number far exceeds that of the "nobility" No offence, but considering the fact that the Nobility will be conditioning their sons to potentially become a SPESS MAHRINE up until the age of 11 or 12 or so, and the fact they take Hive Gangers just as readily, kind of make your "theory" kind of, well, wrong.

Gwar, while that comment is perfectly logical, you ignore the point that 40k fluff consistently ignores or minimizes that logic. All GW fluff shows that primitive peoples are excellent recruits, especially from deathworlds. The Imperium goes so far as to colonize and support deathworlds at great cost just to set up the enhanced recruitment for space marines. As I said before you are applying logic to a area where GW has constantly been illogical. In real life well trained marines rack up 40:1 kill ratios on gangers and tribal warriors. In 40k well trained and educated people are considered inferior to random drug addicted gang members with guns thrust in their hands.

Ultramarines may have a pool 1000 times larger to recruit from, but SW could easily have people 1000 times more likely to survive the process. Ultras are limited in maximum size. SW are not. SW were a smaller legion back when legions were huge, but they never divided more then once, while Ultras divided multiple times.

That Fenris could support a small legion with recruitment, and that legion numbered more then 2x current chapter codex size, indicates SW have the capability to expand to at minimum 2x chapter size. As they have no upper limit to cap them, and they take everyone who makes the cut, it is reasonable to assume they are back up to their legion size.

You forget good sir the Way Marines were made was vastly different pre Heresy, which was the reason for the large numbers.

How has it changed or at least where can this info be sourced?

cadbren wrote:How has it changed or at least where can this info be sourced?

It is pretty easy to find. Pre Heresy, they made Space Marines a LOT faster, and were able to "retrofit" older men as well. This was perceived as one of the reasons for the Heresy, so it was changed to be slower.

Gwar! wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:

Gwar! wrote:There has never been any mention of them ever recruiting from anywhere but Fenris, to my knowledge (which is pretty good).

But there never has been anything that says they don't, I know at times it is implied but still they are Marines they can take pretty much who ever they want.

Except it is heavily Implied that the Geneseed only seems to work with Humans from Fenris.

I know this will just cause more trouble but it is implied (and I am not agreeing with BrotherStynier here) that the Wolves recruit from elsewhere than Fenris.
Let me explain. The Lost Companies that are off on the Long Hunt (ie no longer part of the official chapter as the administratum see it) are said, in an old white dwarf article written by a certain Scribe Chambers back a ways, to recruit from other worlds to keep their strength up as a fighting force. Now in the article it does say that these men are trained and equipped but not made into marines, however, it also implies that a Lost Company that has the capability to create marines will do so and considering they do not return for long periods of time it seems logical to assume that they will augment recruits from other worlds. (Catachan Wolves can you taste the awesome?)

In conclusion I will say that (and you may rip to your hearts content, this is simply my understanding) Wolves of the core Chapter are not lacking of recruits as there are plenty of youths good enough to make the grade (due to their lifestyle). When separated from Fenris for a century or two a Lost Company will demonstrate the Wolves' usual autonomy and replenish their strength from those they deem worthy/suitable from available planets if they are too far from Fenris.

ps:I'll post the WD for your enjoyment when I get back to SA later this month.

Oh, and with respects to the Mark of the Wulfen debate I say Gwar! has it on the nose. Some members of the Chapter let the Wolf within take over in battle but only the 13th co. have permanently changed wulfen. A Mark is a rare thing and a constant Wulfen would be unsuitable for the strictures of the Fang. A Blood Claw gets into a lot of fights and Wulfen arent know for their patience.

Gwar! wrote:

cadbren wrote:How has it changed or at least where can this info be sourced?

It is pretty easy to find. Pre Heresy, they made Space Marines a LOT faster, and were able to "retrofit" older men as well. This was perceived as one of the reasons for the Heresy, so it was changed to be slower.

Okay, BL aren't exactly fluff, but I've been reading Goto's DOW series and the Blood Ravens are using older men and rushing things along because they're dying too quickly.

cadbren wrote:Okay, BL aren't exactly fluff, but I've been reading Goto's DOW series and the Blood Ravens are using older men and rushing things along because they're dying too quickly.

Then in the Eyes of the High Lords they are Traitors and Heretics of the Worst Kind.

cadbren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

cadbren wrote:How has it changed or at least where can this info be sourced?

It is pretty easy to find. Pre Heresy, they made Space Marines a LOT faster, and were able to "retrofit" older men as well. This was perceived as one of the reasons for the Heresy, so it was changed to be slower.

Okay, BL aren't exactly fluff, but I've been reading Goto's DOW series and the Blood Ravens are using older men and rushing things along because they're dying too quickly.

Goto's stuff isn't considered canon because it disregards everything else in order to have more MULTILASERS.

In the new tales of Heresy novel there is a story about Lord Bulveye from the time of the great crusade. Loyal readers will remember him from the last Ragnar book as the 13th company wolf lord that they encounter. A small aside during the story mentions the origins of the 13th company, who called themselves the wolf brothers. I will speak of it since it is not really important to the plot of the story. Apparently the men of Russ's retinue demanded to be made into marines even though the Allfather told them they were too old and would probably not survive the process. Russ relented and so 2 score survived of the hundreds of men impressing the Allfather with their big brass ones, and forming the core of the 13th company.
More importantly Bulveye encounters a new world and thinks to himself that the brave young men of this world could have made fine recruits for the chapter. So apparently, at least pre heresy, the Wolves did recruit from other worlds.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

cadbren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

cadbren wrote:How has it changed or at least where can this info be sourced?

It is pretty easy to find. Pre Heresy, they made Space Marines a LOT faster, and were able to "retrofit" older men as well. This was perceived as one of the reasons for the Heresy, so it was changed to be slower.

Okay, BL aren't exactly fluff, but I've been reading Goto's DOW series and the Blood Ravens are using older men and rushing things along because they're dying too quickly.

Goto's stuff isn't considered canon because it disregards everything else in order to have more MULTILASERS.

That sounds about right.

You guys realize you are arguing over the fluff of a group of fantasy barbarians in armor that can take a bullet well, right? I mean, JEEZ, what is up with Dakka Dakka? I like my little men as much as the enxt guy, and I have in fact told people not to insult the fact that they are little men and it isn't a child's game, BUT JEEZ this is stuff written by humans. It has a crapload of mistakes and it of course will have tons of holes in it.

My point is, this is nice and all, but it's fluff over a fantasy chapter of barbarians...

PS: No disrespect, really.

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:You guys realize you are arguing over the fluff of a group of fantasy barbarians in armor that can take a bullet well, right? I mean, JEEZ, what is up with Dakka Dakka? I like my little men as much as the enxt guy, and I have in fact told people not to insult the fact that they are little men and it isn't a child's game, BUT JEEZ this is stuff written by humans. It has a crapload of mistakes and it of course will have tons of holes in it.

My point is, this is nice and all, but it's fluff over a fantasy chapter of barbarians...

PS: No disrespect, really.

Arrr...yeah. So what's your point mate, that's what the background section is for.

Gwar! wrote:They had about 26,000 Marines when the 2nd founding happened, all from the Ultramar Sector. That means the Ultramarines Chapter will ALWAYS be at Full Strength (bar being eaten by Nids) because they have such a huge pool. Which was my point all along.

Categorically untrue. It's established fluff that after the Battle for Macragge and the wiping of the First Company it took the Ultramarines a full century to recover to full strength. If they really had such a huge pool, it'd be an easy matter to promote veterans from other Companies to the First to fill those losses and then take that many scouts experienced enough and ready to be inducted to full Marine to refill the other Companies. Blam Full Chapter once again.
Time spent: Maybe a decade if logistics turn out to be a nightmare and a lot of equipment needs to be replaced as well.

You did notice the "Bar Being eaten by Nids" in the quote? What I mean is that normal combat losses are replaced pretty much straight away, because of the huge recruitment pool.

In that case, it's a pretty weak argument, as much the same can be said for every Chapter bar those struck by catastrophe or drawn into a war of attrition (Lamenters, Crimson Fists).
All Chapters are at combat strength pretty much continually, and able to replenish their losses at the same (or faster) rate than they are incurred. The Space Wolves certainly are, or they wouldn't have lasted ten millennia.

@Demogerg: LOL @ your sig. That's the most consise version of the Heresy I've yet seen.

Written by Manchu here on Dakka, Im actually just finishing up a .GIF image version of it.

The one thing I would add to this debate - the opportunities to show your quality are far different between Ultramar and Fenris - Ultramar is a lot nicer and safer, all around, without tribes at constant war. And so while a lot of people die in the SW training, its far, far less than I would imagine for Ultramarines, as the men are generally a lot harder to start with.

So it may be that even with a smaller pool, the Space Wolves can recruit far more vigorously, and therefore keep up a larger # of recruits. And who is to say that Ultramar is pushed to its limits in keeping 1200 marines in the field? Maybe they could produce 10,000 from their home worlds alone if they wanted to, but only take enough to keep 1000 at a time.

Bran Dawri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:They had about 26,000 Marines when the 2nd founding happened, all from the Ultramar Sector. That means the Ultramarines Chapter will ALWAYS be at Full Strength (bar being eaten by Nids) because they have such a huge pool. Which was my point all along.

Categorically untrue. It's established fluff that after the Battle for Macragge and the wiping of the First Company it took the Ultramarines a full century to recover to full strength. If they really had such a huge pool, it'd be an easy matter to promote veterans from other Companies to the First to fill those losses and then take that many scouts experienced enough and ready to be inducted to full Marine to refill the other Companies. Blam Full Chapter once again.
Time spent: Maybe a decade if logistics turn out to be a nightmare and a lot of equipment needs to be replaced as well.

Well, they did most likley lose most of their Terminator armours. Right there is probably more than a decade to replace (no matter how good connections you got with the adeptus mechanicus). Also the entire company was gone, veterans, commanders, all of it. So while they might have replaced the persons in the company, surely they would be at lower strength until they new commanders got the same experience in the role of the first company?

And yes, I know veterans from other companies are bad-ass marines asw, but the first company are still better. Even if they have this awesome big recuitment pool, the pool for the first company is still only the other 8 (scout company not included), the 9:th and 8:th company are also almost gone. Being made up of marines better at one role (assault or long range). So that leaves 6 companies to recruit from. Even so, if you take all of the veterans out of the other companies, who will run them? Who will be the squadleaders? You can't just rampantly promote all of them, it would break the rest of the chapter.
Yes, you might have a recruitmentpool in the billions, even trillions. But that does not really help when the only ones suitable for the first company are counted in their dozens at most (that also have potentially more critical assignments)

The new Codex states that Ragnar's Great Company sometimes numbers slightly less than 200 marines. His conmpany is stated to be second only to Grimnar's. (though whether referring to size, effectiveness, or popularity is not clear) The other companies are implied to have less than this, sometimes far less. I'd assume that the Wolves average out to have about a standard Chapter amount of marines available at any one time.

I suppose Fenris managed to support a Legion of roughly 100,000 marines (according to the Horus Heresy Collected Visions "most" legions were 100-150k with the Ultramarines having the most at about 250k) can only be attributed to the superior methods of creating marines employed with the lost tech of the Crusade era, and the large number of Terran Wolves that would have been left over from the Legion's founding. Even then it's possible that the Space Wolves were, like the Salamanders, smaller than the average Legion.

Yes, that is my point. The legions were so large back then because they had Terran Marines, and could retrofit adults into Astartes, which caused corruption and was unstable.

With Fenris being the only world they recruit from, they have a much MUCH lower draw rate, so it is only logical they be smaller. But as I said, they are gifted with Longevity.

I don't think the Crusade-era methods created traitors, considering the chia-pet Terran marines stayed loyal even amongst the traitor legions. Likewise, the Night Lords didn't start having problems until their new recruits were drawn from criminals and gang members. Seems like the more they flesh out the psyche's of the primarchs we see that there were far more reasons for them to betray/remain loyal than "quickly grown with lost tech". But hey, the Imperium's mind is a hard thing to change...and Rowboat was a pompous ass. Can't have a thread about Ultras and not have that said AT LEAST 20 times.