Apologies if I'm opening a can of worms by continuing, or by asking questions that should be obvious, though I havn't been able to turn the answer up to them yet.

Have we had any confirmation or corroboration on the rumor that Guardsmen squads would, in some form or shape, be able to shoot through each other without giving the enemy a cover save (Believe it was called "Platoon Drill")? Has this rumor been discounted?

Further, RUMINT (Rumors Intelligence) indicates that the Hellhound and its variants will cost more than 100 points. What's the skinny on this? 300 or more points for a squadron of 3 AV12 armored vehicles seems a bit much, considering RUMINT and leaks indicate that a Leman Russ MBT with Battle Cannon and 3 Heavy Bolters will range around 170 points...

Also, has it been confirmed whether Sergeants in an Guard infantry squad can switch out their laspistol and CCW for a lasgun?

1) There is no Platoon Drill. Nor anything like the rumored Platoon Drill.

2) The Hellhound and its variants are 130 pts each. And you're correct on your numbers for the LRBT.

slight correction for DBM

On of the hound variants wich shoots melta blast templates is 120pts

GhostRecon wrote:Also, has it been confirmed whether Sergeants in an Guard infantry squad can switch out their laspistol and CCW for a lasgun?

It has been confirmed that they can't. There's been quite a bit of complaining about that.

This is fine.

Death By Monkeys wrote:1) There is no Platoon Drill. Nor anything like the rumored Platoon Drill.

2) The Hellhound and its variants are 130 pts each. And you're correct on your numbers for the LRBT.

Raxmei wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:Also, has it been confirmed whether Sergeants in an Guard infantry squad can switch out their laspistol and CCW for a lasgun?

It has been confirmed that they can't. There's been quite a bit of complaining about that.

Ah, alright. Thanks for clearing that up! Based on what we have, it seem as if the Codex is shaping up to be a good one, albeit with a series of contentious flaws or odd rules choices. Still, seems like a very good time to start up a Guard army...

Today I looked into the copy the local GW store has, and I was quite dissapointed when I noticed that Veteran squads can't get the pistol and CC weapon combi anymore. They have Lasguns and CC weapons and can get Shotguns instead.
Why bother giving them CC weapons if they don't have the option to get a pistol. It doesn't make any sense.

So, I'm probably not going to use the FW enforcers for them.

Oh, and another question! x.x

Vox-Casters - Do they let orders be cast without having to be in the range radius? Or do you still need to be in an Officer's range radius?

Still need to be in range.

We should totally put these kinda questions in a sticky or something.

GhostRecon wrote:Oh, and another question! x.x

Vox-Casters - Do they let orders be cast without having to be in the range radius? Or do you still need to be in an Officer's range radius?

You still have to be in range.

Vox-Casters give you a re-roll.

Think of the Vox-Caster as a large tape-recorder. If you mishear the order, you can play it back again to better understand. It doesn't transmit or receive anything though.

Anung Un Rama wrote:Why bother giving them CC weapons if they don't have the option to get a pistol. It doesn't make any sense.

I think this lends more credence to the idea that there is a very apathetic work ethic amongst the game design staff. If someone can notice a problem like this on their first viewing, why didn’t they during the several hours of playtesting they did?

They’re not stupid. They’re not malicious. They just don’t care.

AlfredTheStrange wrote:slight correction for DBM

On of the hound variants wich shoots melta blast templates is 120pts

Actually they range slightly in points. Devil dog is like 120 I think. Too busy to open my "copy" and look.

Yep, DD 120, others 130.

My bad. 'S what I get for not looking it up.

I think it's quite a good buy for that. Melta sponson makes it a bit much, but three of them barebones is 360 with 3 melta canons moving 12" and annihilating what they look at.

Kind of a fast version of the plasmatank.




Not that it matters when the flyingpredatorchimera is 10 more points. Hopefully a couple of IG players will have the heart not to use it.

I like the Cerberus*. Of the Nerfhound variants its the one that sticks out as a viable unit. Plus I like the idea of the Melta-Cannon. It just sounds cool.

*I refuse to call it by its real name because its real name is stupid.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I like the Cerberus*. Of the Nerfhound variants its the one that sticks out as a viable unit. Plus I like the idea of the Melta-Cannon. It just sounds cool.

*I refuse to call it by its real name because its real name is stupid.

Mmmmmm.....Devil Dogs

H.B.M.C. wrote:I like the Cerberus*. Of the Nerfhound variants its the one that sticks out as a viable unit. Plus I like the idea of the Melta-Cannon. It just sounds cool.

*I refuse to call it by its real name because its real name is stupid.

Wouldn't the cerberus have three guns or something?

Give a pintle weapon to it, and bingo. Three guns. Wasn't hard, was it? Cerberus is really just another way of saying Hellhound, and both sound better than 'Devil-fething-Dog'.

Oh, Rangerrob, it's good to see that the Devil is so concerned about the fat content of his food. Even the Master of Hell has to watch his pants-size.

Yebbut, for just a few more points, you can field another Leman Russ...

Bane wolf is pretty slowed too.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yebbut, for just a few more points, you can field another Leman Russ...

Different functions. The basic russ is bad antivehicle and anti termy and is slooooooooooooooow. No bueno for rocketing up and taking out opposing vehicles and contesting back field objectives.

Exactly. You might be able to get a Demolisher into range to smack a vehicle with an S10 marker... but you don't need to. Cerberus does a better job at that (and the Vendetta probably does a better job than it in most cases, but we'll ignore that for the time being).

Russes kill infantry. It's what they've always done and will continue to do.

And no one will take a Vanquisher.

@Shuma:

Huh?

Even a Demolisher is faster at taking out tanks - 6" move + 24" shot = 30" range.

Hellhound w/ Multimelta is 12" move + half 24" range = 24" range.

And your "rocketing" is only 6" more maximum move (18" vs 12").

The other nice bonus is that you can give them Multi Meltas as a hull replacement for 15 points each so the Devil dog with a hull multi melta is 135, only 5pts more than the standard (new) hellhound. Pretty lethal, but to me the BS 3 kills it compared to the much more effective ( and 5 point cheaper ) Vendetta due to the twin linking.

Still I would not want to see one, or god forbid, a squadron of them on the other side of the table.

I think I know the reason for sargeants not being able to have Lasguns.

The new wound allocation rules. With vet sarges being compulsory (and therefore LD8), they probably wanted to make it visually clear that it's a different model for wound allocation. (Perhaps Jervis' son got confused playing vanilla marines with a sargeant with a bolter. We'll never know..)

It actually annoys me les than the "no pistols for vets" thing, I was excited about being able to field Necromunda gangs as Vets (as my only troops) and resurect my PDF militia. Bit of a kick in the teeth. I'm not cutting up my Necro models (since I still use them for Necro).

They're penal troops now!

Yes, arrested for not following the arbitrary new laws regarding weapons and who can have them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Exactly. You might be able to get a Demolisher into range to smack a vehicle with an S10 marker... but you don't need to. Cerberus does a better job at that (and the Vendetta probably does a better job than it in most cases, but we'll ignore that for the time being).

Russes kill infantry. It's what they've always done and will continue to do.

And no one will take a Vanquisher.

hmm strange I will I've tested him already with pask in it and its pretty effective

And Target Number One for any opponent who has an IQ higher than Alessio's. Pask makes tanks too expensive to be worth taking. A fully kitted out Executioner with Pask clocks in at 300 points. That's a few points shy of your base level Superheavies. And it's no Land Raider, and no Macharius.

I wouldn't take pask. His only true benefit is not giving up a KP, unlike Chronus.

I'm not as sold on the melta-cannon as a lot of you seem to be. Even if it hits more often than a multimelta, it will still miss quite frequently - 4 inch scatter is a lot when you are trying to get a vehicle. Melta suicide squads with 4 melta guns (or 3 and BiD) still seem like more of a sure thing to me.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Cerberus is really just another way of saying Hellhound, and both sound better than 'Devil-fething-Dog'.

Personally I'm surprised we didn't get one called "Hades Canine". More fitting with the theme than Bane Wolf.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Shuma:

Huh?

Even a Demolisher is faster at taking out tanks - 6" move + 24" shot = 30" range.

Hellhound w/ Multimelta is 12" move + half 24" range = 24" range.

And your "rocketing" is only 6" more maximum move (18" vs 12").

Don't forget that the russ can only 6+D6", not 12" for it's maximum move.

Hm. Just reread the Ork Codex after a while. Looks like Weaken Resolve is useless against Orks, because they can always use Mob Rule to ignore having Ld 2.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Hm. Just reread the Ork Codex after a while. Looks like Weaken Resolve is useless against Orks, because they can always use Mob Rule to ignore having Ld 2.

Weaken Resolve is useless against the mobs that are 11+ or larger at the time they take the morale or pinning check but it's very valuable against Biker Nobz and Trukk mounted units that reach your front line on Turn 1 or 2. The footslogging mobs shouldn't reach you until Turns 3 or 4, but yes we will have to kill a lot of them in the usual fashion. On the plus side, the Psyker Battle Squad can drop a Soulstorm pie plate on Fearless troops so the squad is not useless.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And Target Number One for any opponent who has an IQ higher than Alessio's. Pask makes tanks too expensive to be worth taking. A fully kitted out Executioner with Pask clocks in at 300 points. That's a few points shy of your base level Superheavies. And it's no Land Raider, and no Macharius.

I wouldn't take pask. His only true benefit is not giving up a KP, unlike Chronus.

I tried it out the other night, worked quite well. Not sure what "fully kitted out" means, but mine only cost 220 for Pask , Vanquisher and hull lascannon. Survived numerous Bright Lance hits with nary a single damage result, knocked down wave serpents in spite of the strength and penetration reductions. And while he was shooting at it, the Executioiner and the chimera full of psychic choir had a field day. Sure, I got lucky in that he couldn't roll what he needed. Maybe next time it won't do as well. Don't know yet if it will make the final cut or not. But as of right now, it's competing quite well for a spot as a ranged anti-armor asset in my IG army. And I'm one of those guys that hasn't been using tanks for the last several years, except for a couple of hellhounds since 5th.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Hm. Just reread the Ork Codex after a while. Looks like Weaken Resolve is useless against Orks, because they can always use Mob Rule to ignore having Ld 2.

Wouldn't quite say that. Assuming they live long enough, I'll be using them in conjunction with the Callidus whenever she shows up. Can you imagine hitting a Nob Biker squad with the Neural Shredder after reducing their LD to a 2. Ignores cover, Instant Death (ST 8 vs LD 2) so no FNP, just mean and nasty.

I see that Hardened Veteran squads are now a seperate Troops choice (unless I missed something). This is a mixed blessing IMO.

George Spiggott wrote: This is a mixed blessing IMO.

Indeed ?

Cryptic posting FTW though !

I don't mind the hellhound range nerf that much. I still plan to run 3 in my 2000 list (as all 3 FA slots so it's not a squadron). I just bought my 3rd. I'll see how it goes though, I might decide to swap one for a vendetta later and save the 3 for Apocalypse.

I will probably add a russ with Pask too, but I think if I do that I will make it a Punisher since all those bazillion bullets will probably benefit a lot from BS4.

reds8n wrote: Indeed? Cryptic posting FTW though!

My Hardened Veterans have lost half their options, off the top of my head Deep Strike, Close Combat weapons and Stormbolters have gone. Of the three I have I can only field two and one of them (Shotguns and Meltaguns) near useless and the other (Shotguns, Plasmaguns and Missile Launcher) took a swift one to the points cost. Bizarrely Carapace Armour has gone up in points.

All my Stormtroopers must now be Elites which along with their new (dumb) anti MEQ role means that they'll be sidelined.

I could rework my 4th edition Stormtrooper/Veterans platoon rules and just ignore whole sections of the codex out of hand.

Overall my Imperial Guard Army went up by a couple of hundred points over the 11,000 or so that I own dispite having to write off a whole squad and about 15-20 missing wargear options (stormbolters bolt pistols and lasguns for the most part).

Perversely my Squats lost only a couple of bolt pistols so making them work in 5th edition will be pretty easy.

George's instant review? Piece of !

Oh wow, the above posts just made me realize how devastating the psychic choir would be to bike nob armies. -7 LD then a tank shock or a pin test.

Could this be an actual honest and simple way to no contest defeat nob bikers?

ShumaGorath wrote:Oh wow, the above posts just made me realize how devastating the psychic choir would be to bike nob armies. -7 LD then a tank shock or a pin test.

Could this be an actual honest and simple way to no contest defeat nob bikers?

You can't tank shock a unit after using Weaken Resolve on them for what should be an obvious reason.

Oh yeah. Well pin tests are still pretty viable.

Aren't Nob Bikers Fearless? Kinda pointless to tank shock them if they are. Personally, I think the Weaken Resolve and Callidus Neural Shredder is the way to go.................

Aren't Nob Bikers Fearless? Kinda pointless to tank shock them if they are. Personally, I think the Weaken Resolve and Callidus Neural Shredder is the way to go.................

Nothing says that you cannot take 2 CCS and each would then be able to take advisors. RAW seem to implicate that their abilities would then stack. -2 to enemy reserve rolls? Yes please! What do you think?

Agreed. However lots of people seem to think otherwise..

The thought process behind that being that if you take two advisors, as soon as -1 was reached it would meet the requirements for both Advisors.

In other words:

-1 + -1 = -1

don_mondo wrote:Aren't Nob Bikers Fearless? Kinda pointless to tank shock them if they are. Personally, I think the Weaken Resolve and Callidus Neural Shredder is the way to go.................

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Maybe I'm thinking of regular Ork Bikers then.

All orks are only fearless if they number 11+ in their mob ( MDG aside perhaps ? From memory he's the only fearless ork in the book).

Bikers cap out at 12 for a squadron so a few casualties and their LD drops pretty quick.

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

don_mondo wrote:Maybe I'm thinking of regular Ork Bikers then.

That was the 3rd edition codex. Ork Bikers and anything related to them (Wazzdakka, Koptas, Bikanobs) were fearless because they're all crazy.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

Yeah, but not when its on a 700+ point squad of pure death. Their leadership is their big weakness because with a few tank shocks you can run them off the board (assuming you were able to remove the warboss in some way).

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

They would be a maximum of LD9 by the time they have to take a morale check for 25% casualties though that takes quite a bit of shooting. On the plus side, a 8 model Psyker Battle Squad would drop that LD down to 2. Even with the Bosspole granting the re-roll in exchange for a wound, the Nobz will probably fall back.

Ubik Lives wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:your "rocketing" is only 6" more maximum move (18" vs 12").

Don't forget that the russ can only 6+D6", not 12" for it's maximum move.

Damn, I missed that in my download.

And for this we gain the amazing ability to fire the hull HB or an overpriced sponson gun alongside the Demolisher Cannon?

Wow.

It is amazing how little mobility Guard are going to have in 5E once this Codex goes official.
___

George Spiggott wrote:I see that Hardened Veteran squads are now a seperate Troops choice (unless I missed something). This is a mixed blessing IMO.

With fixed size of 10 models for higher minimum cost, along with less options, to gain Scoring, "mixed" is indeed the word.

JB wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

They would be a maximum of LD9 by the time they have to take a morale check for 25% casualties though that takes quite a bit of shooting. On the plus side, a 8 model Psyker Battle Squad would drop that LD down to 2. Even with the Bosspole granting the re-roll in exchange for a wound, the Nobz will probably fall back.

Dropping their Ld to 2 won't matter, they'll just use the mob count instead.

Wouldn't the Psykers also reduce the mob count Ld as well

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JB wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

They would be a maximum of LD9 by the time they have to take a morale check for 25% casualties though that takes quite a bit of shooting. On the plus side, a 8 model Psyker Battle Squad would drop that LD down to 2. Even with the Bosspole granting the re-roll in exchange for a wound, the Nobz will probably fall back.

Dropping their Ld to 2 won't matter, they'll just use the mob count instead.

Mob Rule just makes the squad size into the LD value instead of their base LD. It is still affected by LD modifiers. If it didn't work that way, Orks would count as Stubborn for morale checks when they lose an Assault. If you let opponents pull that canard on you, you will not win many battles versus Orks.

PASK?

huh

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JB wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

They would be a maximum of LD9 by the time they have to take a morale check for 25% casualties though that takes quite a bit of shooting. On the plus side, a 8 model Psyker Battle Squad would drop that LD down to 2. Even with the Bosspole granting the re-roll in exchange for a wound, the Nobz will probably fall back.

Dropping their Ld to 2 won't matter, they'll just use the mob count instead.

The weaken resolve ability is a penalty to the leadership roll. It does not set leadership to some number, which could then be overridden by having an ability that let you use a different number to roll leadership.

A 9-bike mob can use Ld9, however if weakened by an 8 strong psyker squad, they're Ld9-8=1 (succeed on double ones).

yeah,
Sorry didn't want to read the massive guard post, but i was wondering...
What's happened to guard to help them out in Kill Point games?

Panic...

They can lose 50 Guardmen as a single KP, instead of 10 at a time for 1 KP each.

Panic wrote:yeah,
Sorry didn't want to read the massive guard post, but i was wondering...
What's happened to guard to help them out in Kill Point games?

Panic...

They can reverse combat tactics into huge mobs of 1 kp.

Goliath wrote:PASK?

huh

Knight Commander Pask. He's an upgrade for Leman Russes of any variant. He provides his Leman Russ with BS 4, and the ability to re-roll failed rolls to wound against Monstrous Creatures, or add +1 to the Armour Pen roll against vehicles.

Panic wrote:yeah,
Sorry didn't want to read the massive guard post, but i was wondering...
What's happened to guard to help them out in Kill Point games?

Panic...

Ahem...

Guard Infantry squads purchased as part of a Platoon can combine with other Infantry squads of the same platoon. Any number of 10-man squads may be combined with other 10-man squads, as you see fit. An Infantry Platoon with 4 Infantry Squads, for instance, could:

-Not combine, and stay as 4 separate 10-man squads, worth 4 Kill Points.
-Combine into either 2 20-man squads, or 1 10, and 1 30-man squads, worth a total of 2 Kill Points.
-Combine into 1 massive 40-man squad. Worth only 1 Kill Point.

Note, that this doesn't work for Special Weapons squads, Conscript squads, or Heavy Weapon squads, or Platoon Command Squads, despite the fact that they are members of the same platoon.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I like the Cerberus*. Of the Nerfhound variants its the one that sticks out as a viable unit. Plus I like the idea of the Melta-Cannon. It just sounds cool.

*I refuse to call it by its real name because its real name is stupid.

I like Devil Dog as a name. Teufelhunden and all that. Ooh-rah!

What boggles my mind is that a techpriest engineseer can take melta bombs but storm toopers can't. Hell even sgt's can take meltabombs. According to the fluff they're raised from birth to be super badass elite soldiers but they're statline is the same as vets. Somehow it seems vets are the new storm troopers.

Crablezworth wrote:What boggles my mind is that a techpriest engineseer can take melta bombs but storm toopers can't. Hell even sgt's can take meltabombs. According to the fluff they're raised from birth to be super badass elite soldiers but they're statline is the same as vets. Somehow it seems vets are the new storm troopers.

I doubt it was done on purpose. My guess is that Arby simply forgot.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I doubt it was done on purpose. My guess is that Arby simply forgot.

There's a lot of wargear he 'forgot'. They have two melee attacks though so I guess that makes them worth 16 points.

George Spiggott wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I doubt it was done on purpose. My guess is that Arby simply forgot.

There's a lot of wargear he 'forgot'. They have two melee attacks though so I guess that makes them worth 16 points.

nahhh they only have one, the sgt has 2.

He's probably referring to the fact that they have both pistol + ccw for a bonus attack.

Crablezworth wrote:nahhh they only have one, the sgt has 2.

Not unless I'm misreading the text or the rules. Stormtroopers all come with HS Lasgun, HS Laspistol and CCW, that's two attacks each and three for the sergeant.

They all have Dual CCW.

George Spiggott wrote:

Crablezworth wrote:nahhh they only have one, the sgt has 2.

Not unless I'm misreading the text or the rules. Stormtroopers all come with HS Lasgun, HS Laspistol and CCW, that's two attacks each and three for the sergeant.

that's worth a 6pt bump on S3 models....

Polonius wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:

Crablezworth wrote:nahhh they only have one, the sgt has 2.

Not unless I'm misreading the text or the rules. Stormtroopers all come with HS Lasgun, HS Laspistol and CCW, that's two attacks each and three for the sergeant.

that's worth a 6pt bump on S3 models....

With the guns, missions, ballistic skill, and ability to be greatly enhanced with orders... Possibly. How good of a player are you? They certainly seem like a unit that won't do particularly welll unless treated like a scalpal.

sourclams wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JB wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

They would be a maximum of LD9 by the time they have to take a morale check for 25% casualties though that takes quite a bit of shooting. On the plus side, a 8 model Psyker Battle Squad would drop that LD down to 2. Even with the Bosspole granting the re-roll in exchange for a wound, the Nobz will probably fall back.

Dropping their Ld to 2 won't matter, they'll just use the mob count instead.

The weaken resolve ability is a penalty to the leadership roll. It does not set leadership to some number, which could then be overridden by having an ability that let you use a different number to roll leadership.

A 9-bike mob can use Ld9, however if weakened by an 8 strong psyker squad, they're Ld9-8=1 (succeed on double ones).

Actually its not a penalty to the leadership check it is a penalty to Leadership

"for the remainder of the turn the enemy unit's leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit..."

beardy wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JB wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

They would be a maximum of LD9 by the time they have to take a morale check for 25% casualties though that takes quite a bit of shooting. On the plus side, a 8 model Psyker Battle Squad would drop that LD down to 2. Even with the Bosspole granting the re-roll in exchange for a wound, the Nobz will probably fall back.

Dropping their Ld to 2 won't matter, they'll just use the mob count instead.

The weaken resolve ability is a penalty to the leadership roll. It does not set leadership to some number, which could then be overridden by having an ability that let you use a different number to roll leadership.

A 9-bike mob can use Ld9, however if weakened by an 8 strong psyker squad, they're Ld9-8=1 (succeed on double ones).

Actually its not a penalty to the leadership check it is a penalty to Leadership

"for the remainder of the turn the enemy unit's leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit..."

Yes, which means that the leadership generated by the mob number is reduced. Its a modifier, it doesn't state that their leaderships value is now X it states that for the remainder of the turn their leadership value is reduced. What's important is which effect comes first and last. It'll need to be FAQ'd.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes, which means that the leadership generated by the mob number is reduced. Its a modifier, it doesn't state that their leaderships value is now X it states that for the remainder of the turn their leadership value is reduced. What's important is which effect comes first and last. It'll need to be FAQ'd.

Perhaps I'm being cynical but this means it won't be.

Q: Hey, how do Mob Rule and Weaken Resolve interact?

A: The heck with these rules. Remember to have fun when playing!

ShumaGorath wrote:

beardy wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JB wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

They would be a maximum of LD9 by the time they have to take a morale check for 25% casualties though that takes quite a bit of shooting. On the plus side, a 8 model Psyker Battle Squad would drop that LD down to 2. Even with the Bosspole granting the re-roll in exchange for a wound, the Nobz will probably fall back.

Dropping their Ld to 2 won't matter, they'll just use the mob count instead.

The weaken resolve ability is a penalty to the leadership roll. It does not set leadership to some number, which could then be overridden by having an ability that let you use a different number to roll leadership.

A 9-bike mob can use Ld9, however if weakened by an 8 strong psyker squad, they're Ld9-8=1 (succeed on double ones).

Actually its not a penalty to the leadership check it is a penalty to Leadership

"for the remainder of the turn the enemy unit's leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit..."

Yes, which means that the leadership generated by the mob number is reduced. Its a modifier, it doesn't state that their leaderships value is now X it states that for the remainder of the turn their leadership value is reduced. What's important is which effect comes first and last. It'll need to be FAQ'd.

M-M-M-M-MULTI-QUOTE

Vladsimpaler wrote:Perhaps I'm being cynical but this means it won't be.

Q: Hey, how do Mob Rule and Weaken Resolve interact?

A: The heck with these rules. Remember to have fun when playing!

I think both sides of the argument are correct.

Weaken Resolve will bring an Ork unit's Ld right down, but that doesn't change their Fearless status because they still have (assuming they have) 11+ models. An Ld1 unit can still be Fearless.

Exactly.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Perhaps I'm being cynical but this means it won't be.

Q: Hey, how do Mob Rule and Weaken Resolve interact?

A: The heck with these rules. Remember to have fun when playing!

I think both sides of the argument are correct.

Weaken Resolve will bring an Ork unit's Ld right down, but that doesn't change their Fearless status because they still have (assuming they have) 11+ models. An Ld1 unit can still be Fearless.

This mostly comes in due to it's effect on nob bikers though, which can't become fearless if I remember correctly (they max out at 10 models don't they?). Or in the very least you could drop a pie plate on them and take that fearless away (which can come after the choir goes if you want given the "remainder of the turn" status. I doubt people are going to use it much on generic boyz considering the amount of pie they will be laying down on them anyway.

ShumaGorath wrote:With the guns, missions, ballistic skill, and ability to be greatly enhanced with orders... Possibly. How good of a player are you? They certainly seem like a unit that won't do particularly welll unless treated like a scalpal.

Good enough to know an overcosted unit when I see one. The problem is that they're not very good and are expensive and fragile. They can't take enough meltas to really guarantee a dead Landraider, they can't hold up in combat against anything scarier than Guardians, they still cough up a kill point, they can't hold objectives, and their gun is really only optimized against MEQs, which the IG simply don't have a hard time killing.

They aren't horrible, they're just overcosted and underpowered. They compete with psychic choirs for the elites slot, and Veterans can accomplish 80% of what Stormtroopers can for half the price, and are better when you need it.

Every codex includes a unit that is bewilderingly overcosted (SM venerable dreadnoughts, Chaos furies, Possessed, Flash Gitz, Swooping Hawks). It's a tradition. Those units aren't unusable, and can be a lot of fun in casual play, but are unfortunately just a weak point in any serious list.

ShumaGorath wrote:

This mostly comes in due to it's effect on nob bikers though, which can't become fearless if I remember correctly (they max out at 10 models don't they?). Or in the very least you could drop a pie plate on them and take that fearless away (which can come after the choir goes if you want given the "remainder of the turn" status. I doubt people are going to use it much on generic boyz considering the amount of pie they will be laying down on them anyway.

Why waste pie on them, 2 Punishers will handle any mob. Make models take saves, 20 shots will kill any armor save.

InquisitorFabius wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

This mostly comes in due to it's effect on nob bikers though, which can't become fearless if I remember correctly (they max out at 10 models don't they?). Or in the very least you could drop a pie plate on them and take that fearless away (which can come after the choir goes if you want given the "remainder of the turn" status. I doubt people are going to use it much on generic boyz considering the amount of pie they will be laying down on them anyway.

Why waste pie on them, 2 Punishers will handle any mob. Make models take saves, 20 shots will kill any armor save.

40 shots. 20 hits. 10 wounds. ~6 saves. ~2 FNP saves. Congratulations, your two punishers just caused two wounds.

ShumaGorath wrote:With the guns, missions, ballistic skill, and ability to be greatly enhanced with orders... Possibly. How good of a player are you? They certainly seem like a unit that won't do particularly welll unless treated like a scalpal.

I'g good enough to win more than I lose, and the as I see it, the problem with 16-pt Stormies is that they aren't hyper-focused Aspect Warriors in an army of Aspect Warriors. They're over-geared, overpriced, easily-killed do-it-all dudes in an army of cheap dudes.

For roughly the same points as 5 non-Scoring full-kit Storms in a Chimera, I can take a Leman Russ with better armor and a better MEQ-killing gun. It's not a scalpel, but then again, the Guard has never been accused of being subtle.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:With the guns, missions, ballistic skill, and ability to be greatly enhanced with orders... Possibly. How good of a player are you? They certainly seem like a unit that won't do particularly welll unless treated like a scalpal.

I'g good enough to win more than I lose, and the as I see it, the problem with 16-pt Stormies is that they aren't hyper-focused Aspect Warriors in an army of Aspect Warriors. They're over-geared, overpriced, easily-killed do-it-all dudes in an army of cheap dudes.

For roughly the same points as 5 non-Scoring full-kit Storms in a Chimera, I can take a Leman Russ with better armor and a better MEQ-killing gun. It's not a scalpel, but then again, the Guard has never been accused of being subtle.

Hey, I agree with John! This almost never happens.

Best use I can see of Stormtroopers only happens in conjunction with other units. Pinning can become ridiculously easy with them, assuming your opponent can be pinned.

ShumaGorath wrote:

InquisitorFabius wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

This mostly comes in due to it's effect on nob bikers though, which can't become fearless if I remember correctly (they max out at 10 models don't they?). Or in the very least you could drop a pie plate on them and take that fearless away (which can come after the choir goes if you want given the "remainder of the turn" status. I doubt people are going to use it much on generic boyz considering the amount of pie they will be laying down on them anyway.

Why waste pie on them, 2 Punishers will handle any mob. Make models take saves, 20 shots will kill any armor save.

40 shots. 20 hits. 10 wounds. ~6 saves. ~2 FNP saves. Congratulations, your two punishers just caused two wounds.

Assuming that your target has 4+ cover (because you pretty much have to make that assumption these days), even shooting at a regular mob:

58 S5 shots, 29 S5 hits, ~20 wounds, 10 saves. Congratulations...you just fired off 400 points worth of models, and killed what, 40 points of models? Not exactly anything to write home about.

I can see taking a five man squad with two meltas as a sort of desperation suicide squad. It's not that good, and it's still a KP, but since it can either deep strike or out flank or move through cover, it might suprise you. 100pts is pricy, but it might be worth it. Bigger squads just dont' seem to add much. AP3 is nice, but the 5 extra guys shooting will still only kill 2.2 marines outside of cover.

w00t!
My advance ordered codex and valkyrie just arrived!!

Hell yeah! Good for you, man!

So I was just thinking... stormtroopers come in a 5 man squad and you can add extra guys to that. Does this mean that if/when they do make those new plasticy ones, they'll be sold in a box of 5? for how much? 25? 30 now that prices are going up? Would 5 guys be able to do much in your average game or would ya really need a full squad for the extra shots and stuff?

I think ST are the same now as allway, a deep striking melta gun delivery system. 5 Man squads are perfect for this. Unfortunately, Veterans are a cheaper, more survivable and more versatile option for the same thing. For the same price you get 5 more wounds, and an extra meltagun.

The only advantage ST have is the ability to DS on thier own, its up to you if thats worth it.

Personally its not enough of an advantage to choose them over Mech or Air Cav Vets or a Psycic Chior

Air cav vets all the way. I can't believe stormies can't have meltabombs, so lame.

Necros wrote:So I was just thinking... stormtroopers come in a 5 man squad and you can add extra guys to that. Does this mean that if/when they do make those new plasticy ones, they'll be sold in a box of 5?

I doubt it. Space Marines start as 5-man squads that you buy up to 10 as well, and they're sold as 10-man boxes. I would expect the same from the Stormtroopers.

Also, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not using the plastic Stormtroopers as anything other than Veterans/Grenadiers. Maybe Stormtroopers in Apocalypse...

So in these vet air cav lists people keep talking about.. is it just troops & valks/vendettas? I'd imagine tanks would get blown to bitz on the first turn if everything is deep striking. I haven't done the math but how many units w/ a valk could you fit in 1500? seems like it might be a kinda pricey list... in points and cash...

I dont know about 1500, I wont play games under 1750 and most everywhere around me including the major tourneys all run 1850 ( Yeah Hah, small games suck!!!)

But in 1850 you can easilly fit 9 valks, 6 vets, 2 CCS and a Psychic Chior. It can be a devastating list but its fragile in more than one way. Still its the closest thing to Mechdar any Imperial player is ever likley to get.

I am building one, but not for competitive play. For Tourneys, its Mech Guard all the way!

I usually play 2000 pt lists so I'm sure I could still fit it in. I just have a lot of tanks I like to play with too and I think if I did all air cav it might be tough to get used to. Not only that but 8 valks would be pretty expensive I could start a whole new army for that...

So, if you have 2 CCS's, could you add an astropath to each unit and get +2 to your reserves?

Necros wrote:I usually play 2000 pt lists so I'm sure I could still fit it in. I just have a lot of tanks I like to play with too and I think if I did all air cav it might be tough to get used to.

So, if you have 2 CCS's, could you add an astropath to each unit and get +2 to your reserves?

There is still a lot of debate on that but there is nothing in the rules that say you cant. I would expect an FAQ ruling at some point, but for now the answer seems to be yes. It makes All reserves air cav very reliable. And at 2k you could afford to throw in a deep strking melta stormie squad as well.

Very different game from the slow moving armor that usually works in 40k. One thing few have mentioned is how an air cav list can mess up a deamon players day just by covering so much of the table with giant footprint flyer bases. It should not be too difficult to herd the deamon player into a killzone just by denying open ground.

Its all just theory hammer at this point though, and with the expense of Air Cav I dont know how many people will be willing to sink that much money into a less than optimum list.

I would sink the money, if it was fun to play but... $522 for 9 valks... could start a whole new army for that...

I would probably start small, my list now is gonna be 2 small platoons and 2 units of vets, so I will probably start with 2 vendettas and see how it goes from there.

They have to stay in a squadron though, so it's not like you'll have them flying all over the place, and all 3 are gonna have to shoot the same target, that might be a pain if you're facing a lot of smaller untis

Augh! How you people tempt me with this new IG stuff....We dont get it in Canada till May 2nd. Boy are you guys lucky!

True, once you get up to that many just managing to find open space for a squadron of them will be a pain.

I think thats what we need to see is just how difficult its going to be using squadrons of models that insanely large.

My mech army is running 3, 2 Vendi/1 Gunship to start. Going to have to figure a way to magnetize the weapons so I can swap them out. Models are way too expensive to buy multiples just for weapon loadouts.

Necros wrote:$522 for 9 valks... could start a whole new army for that...

C'mon Necros. You're not new to this. Why are you paying retail when there are other alternatives?

$400 flat from Melstrom for the same 9 Valks. That's nearly 25% off. And they'd ship all 9 boxes to you for $0.

Does Maelstrom pay you HBMC? They should given how much you plug them.

I am so tempted to do the 9 valk/vendetta army. it would only cost me about $300, since I work at my FLGS.

*sigh*

Ozymandias wrote:Does Maelstrom pay you HBMC? They should given how much you plug them.

I'm surprised this question hasn't come up earlier... No, they don't. And I'm not a 'plant' either. I'm just tired of people talking about high prices when there are great alternatives out there, especially ones that have constant year-round discounts and free shipping. For someone like me, far on the other side of the planet to most of you, where are dollar has shrunk to nearly half its value in a year, discounts and especially free shipping are a big deal. And with the current $-to-£ ratios for you Yanks, it's another good reason to stimulate the British economy.

^^ They do have rules affecting shooting and lasguns but that (cover saves) is not it.

Hey HBMC, when can we expect your giant uber IG Codex review?

With Squad Sgts not having lasguns and having to move loader models onto my heavy weapon team bases, I have a lot of work to do to get my current IG (see gallery images) up to 5th ed spec, and I'd like to hear different players' takes on the new Codex. That and I have to make some Slayer Penal legion guys, but thats for way down the road.

Matt Varnish wrote:Hey HBMC, when can we expect your giant uber IG Codex review?

Whenever the book arrives. I've got it on pre-order from the aforementioned Maelstrom Games UK (30% discount thanks to their sale... got AUD$1300 worth of stuff for AUD$900!) so when it arrives, and whenever my alter-ego, Commissar Calgar, gets back from his fishing trip, then I'll be doing another Cover-2-Cover review.

I mean, most of us already have the 'rules' section - and I did my stream of consciousness overview of that in the last Guard thread - but if I'm going to review the whole book, I want to review the whole book - fluff and colour section as well. Hell, might even tack on a review of all the new Guard kits since I've ordered everything bar the Ratlings. But don't worry, it's coming.

I use Gifts for Geeks, £231 for 9 Valks, a damn steal if you ask me.

What's the shipping on 9 Valk boxes? What's the overseas shipping on 9 Valk boxes?

When are you getting the codex H.B.M.C? It looks like a race to a review, because I also have it on pre-order from the FLGS. Shoulda ordered from overseas to save some money now that I think about it.

Whenever it shows up in the mail. I'm expecting about 8 boxes of stuff to arrive in the next week or so, and with any luck they'll send stuff out so it arrives on the release date, rather than shipping it on the release date. That said, Maelstrom usually gets stuff to me in less than two weeks, so it won't be that long.

And anyone else can write a review if they like - I certainly don't claim ownership of that idea - but it's still not going to stop me from doing my own, even if I suspect the usual suspects will derail the thread by making all their usual comments.

And when you think about it, Dakka's biggest 'gain' from my last review, the 'Chaos' Codex review, was the sudden appearance of JohnHwangDD. What will crawl from the woodwork this time?

And yes I use the word 'gain' extremely loosely.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Necros wrote:$522 for 9 valks... could start a whole new army for that...

C'mon Necros. You're not new to this. Why are you paying retail when there are other alternatives?

$400 flat from Melstrom for the same 9 Valks. That's nearly 25% off. And they'd ship all 9 boxes to you for $0.

I know, just sayin..

H.B.M.C. wrote:Whenever it shows up in the mail. I'm expecting about 8 boxes of stuff to arrive in the next week or so, and with any luck they'll send stuff out so it arrives on the release date, rather than shipping it on the release date. That said, Maelstrom usually gets stuff to me in less than two weeks, so it won't be that long.

And anyone else can write a review if they like - I certainly don't claim ownership of that idea - but it's still not going to stop me from doing my own, even if I suspect the usual suspects will derail the thread by making all their usual comments.

And when you think about it, Dakka's biggest 'gain' from my last review, the 'Chaos' Codex review, was the sudden appearance of JohnHwangDD. What will crawl from the woodwork this time?

And yes I use the word 'gain' extremely loosely.

Heh, the only thread I can remember more fighting in than your Chaos Dex review was the one on the Space Marine Redux rumors. I promise I'll behave myself more in your Guard review... Well, I promise to try to behave more...

Bad news it appears to be a UK/Europe only thing, but £25 shipping 1st class on 9 boxes, so that's all good.

You know man, I'm starting to think you don't like John that much.

Ozymandias wrote:Heh, the only thread I can remember more fighting in than your Chaos Dex review was the one on the Space Marine Redux rumors. I promise I'll behave myself more in your Guard review... Well, I promise to try to behave more...

Easiest way to not derail a thread is to read what I write and not just assume what I'm saying. The biggest problem with the 'Chaos' Codex thread was that you got about half a dozen to a dozen people saying inane things like:

"You're just complaining that it's not powerful any more! Go back and cry to your cheesy Iron Warriors."

And the reason that kept coming up is because people just assumed that a negative review of the 'Chaos' Codex was done in such a manner because the Codex was somehow less powerful than the previous (real) Chaos Codex. Of course, that's a load of bull$hit. My criticisms of the 'Chaos' Codex were more to do with the bland-i-fi-cation of Chaos as a 40K race, the bad choices throughout the book, and just how flavourless and dull it was (and the less said about 'Generic Daemons', the better). None of those three items impacted the 'power' of the Codex in any way - I maintained, and still do, as proven by lots of tourment results, that the 'Chaos' Codex can be a very powerful Codex - but all these people just assumed I was whining about a loss of power and didn't bother to read.

So that's the lesson to learn here - Reading comprehension is a good thing, and when you assume you make and ass out of -u- and me... but mostly -u-.

Cheese Elemental: Don't like? Dude I'm working my way up to loath. Easily the most detrimental member of Dakka since Drew Riggo... *see's Yak entering thread* ... but that's enough of that.

EDIT: Damn word-filter turning -u's- into you's. Have to go and add --'s to everything.

Dexy wrote:Bad news it appears to be a UK/Europe only thing, but £25 shipping 1st class on 9 boxes, so that's all good.

Thanks for the info.

So £256 if you're in the UK/Europe. So that's a saving of £16 for anyone over there compared to Maelstrom. For the rest of us, those of us that have oceans between us and Ol' Blighty, shipping's a tad bit more. In fact, shipping 9 such boxes might be a tad more than £41. It's worth looking into.

but all these people just assumed I was whining about a loss of power and didn't bother to read.

Just don't complain about the format in the guard review. I think its time to move on, the book format sucks, but its what it is. No point in docking a few points from every codex for the same flaw. Just give them a real rating and ignore the flaw (grade on a curve).

Kinda have to agree with Shuma. No need beating a dead dog.

Yes Shummy, 'cause all I'm going to look at is the formatting.

I'm going to do the same thing as the Chaos Codex - Cover-2-Cover. From the artwork on the front, to the summary at the back. Fluff, artwork, colour section, modelling, the list itself and, yes, the formatting and structure. All will be looked at. Page by page.

I can tell you this. aside from the new command sprue models there is very little new in the art section. other than the same old models heavy metal has had around for years.

I think any comprehensive review needs to include those things that are mentioned elsewhere on the site. We've beaten the usefulness of 10pts power weapons to death, but I imagine HBMC will discuss them as well.

I'm planning on doing a review as well. Not as much a review, as I think HBMC will handle the critical analysis quite well, but an overview of the IG playstyle, both from an army level and unit by unit. What options were gained, what was lost, what got better, what got worse, etc. My goal is to hopefully shed some light on some things, reveal some possibilities of the new and revised units, and prepare people who are facing IG for what to expect.

does any1 know what the wargear options for sargents are?

i like the new codex. it gives guard the oppertunity to be what they always should have been, heavy in men and armour. each not great alone but combined makes them great. The new Orders system seems a lot more fun over the old doctrine and i think it will really engage players who enjoyed the guards previous codex.
Of course not everybody will be happy but im looking forward to dusting off my guard and breathing some life into my first and still favorite army in 40k

Onnotangu is right. The modeling..scratch that....color section is the same as in the Marine, Demon or Ork 'Dex. Pretty pictures of models build from the sprues. No extras.

edit: how can I write with some words scratched through?

With the letter S, for "strikethrough" in the brackets.

The Angry Commissar wrote:does any1 know what the wargear options for sargents are?

(Las Pistol & CCW) Bolt Pistol, Melta Bombs, Power weapon, Plasma Pistol. No Shotgun, Boltgun, or Lasgun.

one complaint i have for the codex "Hot-Shot Lasgun" *cries* couldnt they have just kept "Hellgun"

I guess that you weren't around when the Storm Troopers' weapon was actually called Hot-Shot Lasgun. There were some cries of dismay when it was changed to Hellgun actually.

I think it was good to change the name back. Now, a Hellgun is what the old stormtroopers have like if you wanna use the guys from the DH codex for some reason. the new IG stormtroopers have different guns with different stats, so they may as well have different names too

Meltdown wrote:one complaint i have for the codex "Hot-Shot Lasgun" *cries* couldnt they have just kept "Hellgun"

They changed it because now the FRFSRF order can also affect them ( "models firing lasguns").

But Hellgun sounds so much cooler than hot-shot lasgun. That sounds like a weapon that the 50's street punks in Grease would use.

they could have just called it the "Hell Lasgun" then. anything but Hot-Shot.

When I think of storm troopers I think spec ops SAS. Adding hot-shot to is does not make them cool anymore.

Hot-Shot Lasgun was the old 2nd edition name for the Hellgun.

Okay, and we're back to this being a Discussion topic rather than a News & Rumor topic...

Someone better think of some new news quick!

I am going to lock the thread because it is old news. Discussion of the codex can be carried out in the Discussion forum.