dietrich wrote:Does the OP on warseer have any credibility with rumors? If it was Brimstone, I wouldn't like the rumors any better, but I would assume they're spot on.

Yes he does have some. He broke the rumors on Planetary Empires last year; he was ridiculed for it but has since been vindicated as he was 100 percent correct on his PE rumors.

Actually, the CF are featured in RT, but the Wolves get some love as well in the Astartes section, including a cutaway of the Fang which does not resemble the Fang as it has been known since 1994. As for the rumors, shad stated they were based on playtesting, so I wouldn't start making any army list yet. Clearly SW are leaning towards herohammer a bit. Considering the Troops requirement in 5th, they will have their issues. Cheers for rumors, though.

dienekes96 wrote:As for the rumors, shad stated they were based on playtesting, so I wouldn't start making any army list yet. Clearly SW are leaning towards herohammer a bit. Considering the Troops requirement in 5th, they will have their issues. Cheers for rumors, though.

Ah yes, common sense is alive an well, thanks for the thoughtful post!

Wasn't the Space Wolves codex the first one done in 2nd ed? At the least it was the first Marine codex.

Someone back me up.

Ozymandias wrote:Wasn't the Space Wolves codex the first one done in 2nd ed? At the least it was the first Marine codex.

Someone back me up.

yes it was the first marine codex for 2nd Ed.

Warthur wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Why are the space wolves so much better in combat then every other marine again? They don't train more. The don't have better equipment. They don't have better tactics. They aren't better equipped. So why do they seem to be heads and shoulders better then the rest? Moving past my annoyance at the fact that they get a giant standalone book at all, what justification do they have to get things like this?

The in-game answer to this is the same as the answer to every difficult question about Space Marine chapters: It's Something To Do With The Geneseed.

The real life answer is probably due to sentiment and nostalgia on the part of the GW staff. Space Wolves were the main chapter profiled in the original Rogue Trader book, after all.

2nd Rogue Trader book right ? Big Buddha style statute and a wolf campaign in yes ?

I believe actually that this was also the first appearence of the "Souldrinkers", at the time them being an elite cc unit of the very codex heavy White Scars.

Demonic empowerment and guiding by the galactic god of slaughter? Theres a lot more to it then just "They're angrier!". Khorne has a pretty big hand in their efforts.

And there is a lot more it than the simple fact that they are Bluish Grey. If you refuse to acknowledge a paralell argument to the one you used then stop wasting our time and go hide under a different bridge.

These rumours look pretty cool, though I hope they don't over power the wolves too much. I don't want them so powerful that GW decides to up the price ten dollars for no other reason.

Heres hoping for a kickass upgrade sprue!

And there is a lot more it than the simple fact that they are Bluish Grey. If you refuse to acknowledge a paralell argument to the one you used then stop wasting our time and go hide under a different bridge.

The parallel argument of "they train more" is bunk though. They may train in combat more than some chapters, but to the point where they should be equal to the world eaters, the original insane berserker chapter that was then empowered by a god to be even better at it. That and many of them are still around from the heresy. If they train in combat so much then what do they lose?

Are they BS 3? I doubt it.
Do they get less ranged weaponry? Clearly not.
Are they less technologically inclined? Maybe, but if they get the russ tank back then that will hardly matter.

If they train so much more in combat where are all the drawbacks? Why are they just as good as every other chapter at everything else? They don't have extra time to train. They don't have a time chamber and they aren't working at 300 times earths gravity. There is no realistic fluff argument for why they are so much better at combat then every other close combat inclined chapter in the imperium.

ShumaGorath wrote:Do they get less ranged weaponry? Clearly not.
Are they less technologically inclined? Maybe, but if they get the russ tank back then that will hardly matter.

Actually, they do get less ranged weaponry. Neither of their Troops choices have any access to Heavy Weapons, at all. Long Fangs allow them to get some heavy weapons, but these squads are very easily killed, especially if you charge the puny 5-man squad.

Well, assuming they keep some of the old "limiting" aspects, like how Space Wolf Terminators refuse to teleport, Space Wolves can be given some real disadvantages.

If they do get the Leman Russ, which I really hope they don't, they'll either be limited to the ridiculously useless Leman Russ Exterminator, or the choice will be 0-1. Maybe both.

I will agree that charging Wolf Guard with a pair of Lightning Claws getting 6 Attacks each is pretty friggin' ridiculous. I really hope it's actually 4 or 5 (2 or 3 base), and that they pay a corresponding cost for it, similar to what Chaos has to.

Space Wolves shouldn't out close-combat Khorne!

Why are the space wolves so much better in combat then every other marine again? They don't train more. The don't have better equipment. They don't have better tactics. They aren't better equipped. So why do they seem to be heads and shoulders better then the rest? Moving past my annoyance at the fact that they get a giant standalone book at all, what justification do they have to get things like this?

Ok. At the risk of you throwing so much hatred at me for saying fluff, generally playing wolves etc, Ill try and explain.
1) Fenris is very rough. So's Baal, so are most world the astartes recruit from. But, every so often, the islands that the native fenrisians live on will break up in the heat and cold of the world. Then what will happen is that the tribes pack up, and will fight fierce battles for the remaining land. Natural selection ensures only the best warriors live on to be chosen. Hell, the wolf priests only choose the fiercest warriors from each battle , whether alive or an inch from death due to their berserkness.
2) Its a requirement to weild close combat weapons. No bows for Fenrisians. Slings, spears, harpoons, axes, but not bows. The child gift is the axe, and those who do not grip it are slain. Thus they acquire a proficiency they maintain and enhance as they turn to astartes.
3) The landscape is full of monsters and beasts that will more than likely kill you if you are not strong and fierce. So fenrisian wolves, trolls, ice bears etc.
4) Its part of the background. The Wolves fight in the way that Russ dictates, like BA's fight like Sanguinius wanted, IF's fight like Dorn wanted, Ultra's follow the codex rigidly, like Guilliman intended. For the Wolves, that means close combat, because Russ himself taught the first Wolves to favour combat over shooting. This has just passed down, so the best techniques have been distilled, and they train more in use of sword and axe.
5) The canis helix has a different effect to the normal zygotes.While in normal marines, it encourages growth of the marine and his organs, in wolves it also instills a berserkers rage, strength and lust for battle. Like DC, the wolves let loose the berserker rage, but are not absorbed by it. Its a constant struggle to hold back the wolf within.
6) Normal marines are more rounded. Their training is more varied than the wolves. We arent all kinds of "Im a custode to your marine", but our training is based more around close combat firefights and combat itself in BC and GH packs compared to a tactical marine. You get heavy weapons for that reason; we give ours to our old, venerable warriors, partly as they know how to use them best, but heavy weapons don't favour our method of advance and get up close. Your guys are more jacks of all trades.
7) Plentiful bar fights make excellent warriors

Why? Seriously. Titans don't even have AV14 all around. Why the hell does he?

Codex Creep.There, I said it. Or, failing that, he has technology that predates a fair few of the titans in the imperium of man.

Wolf Guard (in terminator armour) with lightning claws rack up 6 attacks on the charge each. A very broken thing to do (think this ill be omitted from the final codex) is put them with Ragnar Blackmane, who gives them Fleet of foot and rending, though dont' quote me on rending.

So space wolf honor guard are so much better because... They are grey?

Because we pay a stupid amount of points for a 1 wounds character. I pay around 54 points for a tricked out WG in TDA now, how do you think I feel when he dies to a space marine captain wielding a relic blade? Or failing that, hows about the Honour guard champion with stupid initiative and a relic blade as well? Whats the point in a 60 point model that can be slain like that? Hell, a 5 man squad= 300 points versus a 200 point 5 man TH/SS termie squad.... thats a cheap captain with relic blade there. How many WGTDA die from him I wonder?

Thats all kinds of good now isnt it....

It's good to know that space wolves work like orks. All you need to do is replace red goes fast with grey kills better.

Thats probably the best comparison. Lots of attacks, but less of the bodies. Thats the game. Don't Black Templars work the same, using mass charges of warriors to destroy the enemy?

Ill be brutally honest. I can accept your view that we don't deserve a seperate dex, because thats your view. Thats your entitlement. But to be honest, there is no need to use an insulting tone, just because you don't like it. I would not dream of going into a BT thread if they got an update, and say "OMG YOU DON'T DERSERVE THE NEW CODEXEZ!" because thats just plain rude. Id discuss rumours, or if I had an opinion they didnt deserve one, make that point, then go with a polite farewell.

On the topic, I am very much of the opinion that some of this is just plain fanciful. 50 points for TDA for SC's? seems OTT for me. I dunno. Ill wait till the dex is out and see.

ShumaGorath wrote:

And there is a lot more it than the simple fact that they are Bluish Grey. If you refuse to acknowledge a paralell argument to the one you used then stop wasting our time and go hide under a different bridge.

The parallel argument of "they train more" is bunk though. They may train in combat more than some chapters, but to the point where they should be equal to the world eaters, the original insane berserker chapter that was then empowered by a god to be even better at it. That and many of them are still around from the heresy. If they train in combat so much then what do they lose?

Are they BS 3? I doubt it.
Do they get less ranged weaponry? Clearly not.
Are they less technologically inclined? Maybe, but if they get the russ tank back then that will hardly matter.

If they train so much more in combat where are all the drawbacks? Why are they just as good as every other chapter at everything else? They don't have extra time to train. They don't have a time chamber and they aren't working at 300 times earths gravity. There is no realistic fluff argument for why they are so much better at combat then every other close combat inclined chapter in the imperium.

Okay lets try and do this slowly for those of us with poor reading comprehension.

Equal to the world eaters? This is a blatant straw man. Have you seen the stats for world eaters and the stats for grey hunters? Berzerkers are rocking ws5, 2 attacks base, fearless and furious charge with 2 cc weapons. Grey Hunters are ws 4, 1 attack base with 2 cc weapons and counter charge. In what world is that equal to the world eaters?

Unless you mean the rumoured wolf guard because honestly I do think that seems a little silly.


And the argument for "why are grey hunters better in cc than most chapters" is not JUST they train more. Lets break it down into a series of bullet points for you

1. The recruits are drawn from an extremely violent planet where anyone who isn't proficient in hand to hand combat dies before they reach the age of 12.

2. They have gene-seed from a giant berserker wolf man which gives them enhanced combat skills (you never seem to address the gene-seed argument which is the single strongest argument for why sw are better in cc, it's because russ was)

3. They don't train MORE in total they train DIFFERENTLY.

a tactical marine is at the same time properly trained to be a tac marine, an assault marine and a devastator marine. He has to prep and train for 3 very different roles so that he can switch to the best tactical option when the time comes.

A Grey Hunter is ONLY trained to be a grey hunter. This is why they are slightly better at the close range tactical role but get NO heavy weapons training and why are assault marines are crappy and have ws/bs 3.

To be honest I'm starting to think you have never even read the space wolf codex because you state that they don't get less long ranged weaponry. Wolves DO get less long ranged weaponry.

As for being better at cc but the same at everything else? WE don't teleport, have nigh on useless devvy equivalents, no heavy weapons in our tac equivalents, no ironclad, no landspeeder storm, no sternguard, no honour guard, no vanguard, no company command squad, no signum wielding devvies, no servitors, no thunderfire cannon, no scout bikers, no combat tactics.




In fact lets look at the exact differences between a grey hunter pack and a tactical marine pack as it currently stands and see if there isn't an OBVIOUS fluff justification for each one

GH vs Tac Squad

GH gets counter attack - tac squad gets combat tactics reason = different training

GH gets a bolter and cc weapon - tac squad gets a bolter, bolt pistol and grenades reason = different weapons training, gh are more focused on specifically a tactical role

GH get option for plasma pistol, power weapons and power fist - tac squad gets option for heavy weapon reason = space wolves are still a legion and have more of their original equipment to use. They do not use heavy weapons because of a different tactical and organisational structure

GH get no matter the odds reason = gene-seed

So, IOW, if a Marine Chapter recruited from Catachan, they'd totally kick a Space Wolf's ass?

BDJV wrote:

dietrich wrote:Does the OP on warseer have any credibility with rumors? If it was Brimstone, I wouldn't like the rumors any better, but I would assume they're spot on.

Yes he does have some. He broke the rumors on Planetary Empires last year; he was ridiculed for it but has since been vindicated as he was 100 percent correct on his PE rumors.

I'm a little sad about some of the rumors, but until you see the whole picture of a codex, it's hard to know what it all means. Losing TH/SS would be bad, but if it's replaced by Relic Blade/SS on basic terminators - well, I wouldn't complain!

As to the 'are SWs different enough to deserve their own codex?' front.

SWs are clearly one of the most divergents SM chapters. SMs make money. GW will make a SW codex, they're an established part of the fluff. Now, if GW would take the efforts going into a SW codex and redirect it into Lost and the Damned, Genestealer Cults, etc. - I'd happily play SWs as Grey Marines (provided that DA were just Green Marines, BA are Red Marines, and BTs are Black and White Marines). But, all the energy going into SWs wouldn't be enough to create a new codex, and it wouldn't be as profitable for GW either. Why? Because all the tanks and a lot of the model range is pre-existing, so it's less effort (same codex effort, less new model development) and it will sell very well, making GW lots of money. GW is a business, if they don't make money, they close their doors. To me, this is like complaining about FLGS selling pokemon cards. I'm not crazy about having 8-year olds running around the FLGS playing pokemon, but if it makes the store money and helps to keep them afloat, it's better than not having the kids running around and having the FLGS close.

Allright, enough ShumaGorath-bashing . Back to the topic at hand.

Bloke called McBain over on the Warseer version of this thread has said the new SW Codex will be available at GD UK this year; so far nothing really new (or at least, nothing I haven't heard before).
He also said that FW will be selling a LE SW Venerable Dread and a LE SW Wolf Lord at that event . He's also let slip that there will be a "regular" SW Ven Dread out later on. I don't know how reliable he is as a rumour source (I don't usually pay much attention to that kind of thing), but it sounds plausible enough to me.

An early Codex itself would not be enough to draw me there from the Netherlands, but these two models just might ...

ShumaGorath wrote:
Are they BS 3? I doubt it.
Do they get less ranged weaponry? Clearly not.
Are they less technologically inclined? Maybe, but if they get the russ tank back then that will hardly matter.

1. See: Codex Space Wolves, Blood Claws entry, BS 3. argument fail
2. See: Codex Space Wolves, Grey Hunter entry, no heavy weapons options. argument fail
3. See: Codex Space Wolves, special rules, will not teleport, no land speeder storms, more expensive jump pack troops. argument fail

your arguments are full of fail

please respond with valid arguments for future discussion.


*edited for grammer*

@Shumagorath

You know, it's weird, but I actually think you're a smart guy and a veteran player who could give good advice. Unfortunately, you don't engage in DEBATE, just in whining and being kind of a jerk in every topic I see you in. If you talked (and I know that it's the interwebs and "tone" can't translate as well as speaking) with a much nicer or at least a neutral tone, people might take you seriously. Maybe say things like: "You're kind of right about this point, but I believe that ______________ ". I don't mean you need to conform to others points of view, just don't be such a a**hole about it OK?

Hey BD, I saw the same thread at Warseer. Do you think they'll have some previews of the new codex by then?

JohnHwangDD wrote:So, IOW, if a Marine Chapter recruited from Catachan, they'd totally kick a Space Wolf's ass?

Depends on what geneseed they have implanted in them.

1. See: Codex Space Wolves, Blood Claws entry, BS 3. argument fail

Blood claws are scout equivalents aren't they? Scouts have BS 3 also. They are the same. No wait they aren't because space wolf scouts are still bs4 (though they'll probably lose that in the new book). Though I'll give this one too you. Your close combat initiate squad with no ranged weaponry is bad at shooting. Oh curses, that must impact the game so much.

2. See: Codex Space Wolves, Grey Hunter entry, no heavy weapons options. argument fail

Yes, because tactical squads are the heart of the ranged punch of a marine force. To make up for no heavy weaponry you get true grit, which once upon a time made them better line squads then marines since they could do the ranged duty and pull close combat like assault marines. That and getting three plasma pistols per squad is nice for ranged too.

Lets not forget your devastator squad with the built in ability to split fire too. Making them more skilled ranged troops.

Oh and your terminators getting 4 assault canons per squad.

And your leman russ battle tank.

3. See: Codex Space Wolves, special rules, will not teleport, no land speeder storms, more expensive jump pack troops. argument fail

You don't get the land speeder storm because it didn't exist until the new marine codex. Thats hardly good reasoning. You get every other speeder variant. As for the jump troops, they get 4 attacks on the charge rather than 3. But yes, they are more expensive. This one I found odd because jump troops aren't high tech.


Space wolves don't really lack in any of the areas I've mentioned. They have most of what other forces have as well as more skilled devastators and more shooty terminators. They lack line squad heavy weapons, but make up for it in almost every other area. They shouldn't have scouts at all if they spent their entire careers training for combat.

You know, it's weird, but I actually think you're a smart guy and a veteran player who could give good advice. Unfortunately, you don't engage in DEBATE, just in whining and being kind of a jerk in every topic I see you in. If you talked (and I know that it's the interwebs and "tone" can't translate as well as speaking) with a much nicer or at least a neutral tone, people might take you seriously. Maybe say things like: "You're kind of right about this point, but I believe that ______________ ". I don't mean you need to conform to others points of view, just don't be such a a**hole about it OK?

Given that I'm debating against every wolf player on this forum its hard to keep it civil. Things like the landraider dreadnaut and veteran troops with 6 attacks on the assault don't help my demeanor either. After the guard codex I fear the codex creep here is basically going to create an army of supermarines that beat normal ones in every manner. No rumor so far has proven me wrong. The fact that they are getting a full sized codex likely means that they will be getting a fairly substantial number of new units as well to fill the space.

My opinion here is dissapointment. I think that the wolves should have gotten a new half codex with slightly superior assault troops, powerful characters, and poor ranged abilty. What these rumors have stated is that they are getting a full codex with better than berserkers assault troops and I'm still waiting for a rumor that shows them losing any ranged ability.

I don't like what I'm hearing and just like with the guard rumors I'm debating against the fanbois that refuse to acknowledge when things seem broken or overpowered because "its how it should be".

Hmm, wonder how much it will cost. SM was the last 40k codex right? Guard have not been released yet last I heard, and I was wondering whether or not the new codexes will keep the massiveness of the SM one and the same price.

augfubuoy wrote:Hey BD, I saw the same thread at Warseer. Do you think they'll have some previews of the new codex by then?

I should hope so. By then the Codex will be right around the corner - Right now it's still, what? 4 1/2 months away at minimum.
Right, back to your regularly scheduled programming of ShumaGorath vs. everyone .

ShumaGorath wrote:Blood claws are scout equivalents aren't they? Scouts have BS 3 also. They are the same. No wait they aren't because space wolf scouts are still bs4 (though they'll probably lose that in the new book). Though I'll give this one too you. Your close combat initiate squad with no ranged weaponry is bad at shooting. Oh curses, that must impact the game so much.

Err, yes. Except that when the SW Codex was printed, regular scouts actually had weapon and ballistic skill 4. And SW scouts have Bs 4 because they're *not* new initiates, like SM scouts; they're seasoned veteran warriors equal in skill to a Marine. Their personal inclinations and character suits them better to a scout role (they tend to be loners, see).
(And actually, the WS and BS 3 does tend to impact games.)

ShumaGorath wrote:Yes, because tactical squads are the heart of the ranged punch of a marine force. To make up for no heavy weaponry you get true grit, which once upon a time made them better line squads then marines since they could do the ranged duty and pull close combat like assault marines. That and getting three plasma pistols per squad is nice for ranged too.

Correct. No heavy weapons, and true grit . And for a 20% increase in cost, I do think they're allowed to be better at something, at least. And you don't get 3 plasma pistols, you get a max of 2 and one plasmagun (or meltagun, or flamer). All of which you have to pay for. Not to mention that *all* of the weapon SW troop choices get require you to get within 12" of an enemy to be used to their best effect. Yeah, that sure sounds like a ranged force to me.
Oooh, and the long fangs. Split fire. Yeah, and for that ability you pay 108 points for 5 models that die just as easily as a regular marine before you choose weapons. The guy that gives the unit this ability is actually the only model in the squad that can be taken away as a casualty before you start removing heavy weapons. They're so worth taking. [/sarcasm]
I'll grant you the Wolf guard's greater number of termie heavy weapons - then again, you have to take 10 of them to get that many assault cannons. Such a squad (equipped otherwise identical to a marine squad, so PF for everyone, and stormbolters for everyone not using a heavy weapon), would set you back 588 points, excluding the character you need them to guard. How much would a 10-man marine terminator squad with 4 asscannons (I'm more of a Cyclone launcher fan, myself) cost, exactly?
At a more normal squad size (4-6 Wolf Guard), you get... 2 heavy weapons. That's such an increase over the amount regular termies got when the codex was written. Oh wait, no it wasn't.
Though I will say that a WG Deathstar unit with SW-unique upgrades (runic charms) are easily a match for the worst other armies can reasonably dish out - including Nob bikerz and seercouncils - at the cost of about a quarter of your army.

In any case, if Space Wolves are currently getting so many benefits over regular marines, why aren't there more of them running around the tourney scene killing everything in sight?
As for the Leman Russ Exterminator, it's twice the cost of a similarly dakka predator. That's so overpowered.

Also, the reason you're not hearing anything about losing ranged power, is because rumours, for the most part, tend to be about what *is* in the Codex, not what isn't. So far, I've heard no reliable rumours that the LRE is still there, and I'm hedging my bets on the 6A WG and stuff, too.
They're rumours. The Codex is still 4 1/2 months away, at minimum. So they're early rumours. So until we get confirmation/more rumours, chill. It ain't the end of the world (yet).

augfubuoy wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:So, IOW, if a Marine Chapter recruited from Catachan, they'd totally kick a Space Wolf's ass?

Depends on what geneseed they have implanted in them.

OK, that's fair.

I find the various death world Fluff to be more than a little hokey, so whenever I read that kind of stuff, my eyes start rolling back in my head...

It's all good.

Demogerg wrote:
1. See: Codex Space Wolves, Blood Claws entry, BS 3. argument fail
2. See: Codex Space Wolves, Grey Hunter entry, no heavy weapons options. argument fail
3. See: Codex Space Wolves, special rules, will not teleport, no land speeder storms, more expensive jump pack troops. argument fail

your arguments are full of fail

please respond with valid arguments for future discussion.

Ummm. We're not talking about the current codex. We're talking about the rumored codex, and its apparent (WG w/6 attacks) rumors. The discussion is about the proposed codex versus the current SM codex. Obviously, no one thinks the current wolf dex is overpowered.

I'd keep that in mind before throwing around fails.

Personally, I don't buy fluff rationales for codex rules. Anyone can make the argument their geneseed/training/primarch/deathworld is the best/worst/creates the best warriors/etc. GW would increase the power level of the wolf codex to sell models. Period. End of discussion.

Considering the relative success of Apoc, GW treading water with regard to sales/profit currently, and the reshuffle to launch Planetsrike and Wolves (more marines), my money is on them being better than DA/BA/and SM, so that they'll sell a bucket-load of models.

Like others have said, we'll have to see cost, whats in, and what's out before getting our panties in a bunch.

Ratbarf wrote:Hmm, wonder how much it will cost. SM was the last 40k codex right? Guard have not been released yet last I heard, and I was wondering whether or not the new codexes will keep the massiveness of the SM one and the same price.

Guard codex has 104 pages, the marine codex 144.

Obviously the marines are exception to the page count and pricing.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Blood claws are scout equivalents aren't they?

No, they do not infiltrate, they are Marines. They are wild close combat marines who are too reckless to shoot well or keep themselves protected in close combat. Space Wolves start in a Blood Claw pack, as Space Marines start in a Scout squad, that is the only similarity

Scouts have BS 3 also. They are the same. No wait they aren't because space wolf scouts are still bs4 (though they'll probably lose that in the new book). Though I'll give this one too you. Your close combat initiate squad with no ranged weaponry is bad at shooting. Oh curses, that must impact the game so much.

Yes, because tactical squads are the heart of the ranged punch of a marine force. To make up for no heavy weaponry you get true grit, which once upon a time made them better line squads then marines since they could do the ranged duty and pull close combat like assault marines. That and getting three plasma pistols per squad is nice for ranged too.

So, shooting bolt pistols, plasma pistols, melta guns, plasma guns, etc from a Blood Claw pack does not count as ranged because they are BS3, but when its from a Grey Hunter pack its all of a sudden "nice ranged" I think you are wrong here.

Lets not forget your devastator squad with the built in ability to split fire too. Making them more skilled ranged troops.

you SHOULD forget the "devastator" squad, because in order for them to be anywhere near any kind of effectiveness 400+ points need to be spent to give them some albative wounds in the form of Wolf Guad Battle Leaders with Fenrisian Wolf upgrades.

Oh and your terminators getting 4 assault canons per squad.
its 1 heavy weapon per 3 wolf guard, and the squad size max is 9, in order to get 4 you need to attatch another character to the unit, at this point we are looking at 500+ points, im sorry if you also think this is at all effective.

And your leman russ battle tank.
Fair enough, we get a tank that normal marines dont get. seems Fluffy, doesnt it?

Also, your arguement here is not what we can spend gobloads of points to get some ranged firepower, it was Do they get less ranged weaponry? Clearly not.
and we do get less, how many heavy weapons can a marine player get with 900+ points vs a space wolf player getting 8.

You don't get the land speeder storm because it didn't exist until the new marine codex. Thats hardly good reasoning.

how is that hardly good reasoning? we havn't had a LOT of things seeing as our codex came out how many years ago? oh yea 9.

You get every other speeder variant.

and all the Predator varients, and all the Land Raider varients, etc. they are still part of the Imperium, and they are still "Space Marines"

As for the jump troops, they get 4 attacks on the charge rather than 3. But yes, they are more expensive.

But they are WS3 BS3, and still more expensive

This one I found odd because jump troops aren't high tech.

That depends on what fluff you are looking at, Jump pack technology was not as settled in the 31st millenia as it is in the 41st, and Space Wolves pay more for it because it is "not as Russ intended"

Space wolves don't really lack in any of the areas I've mentioned. They have most of what other forces have as well as more skilled devastators

More skilled in that they can split fire, Vanilla marines get to use the signum, they cost less, and get albative wounds, Long Fangs are a horrible unit choice.

and more shooty terminators.

Space Wolf terminators are more individually customizable, and a player may choose to make them more shooty. this is an effect of an old codex that relies on a wargear page, when they update the codex, do you think this will still be valid?

They lack line squad heavy weapons, but make up for it in almost every other area.

And it costs us more points to do so.

They shouldn't have scouts at all if they spent their entire careers training for combat.

How does this logic hold any weight at all? Please tell me. Just because Chapters A, B, and C all recruit into scouts directly does not mean that Chapter D cant have scouts be veteren units.


Given that I'm debating against every wolf player on this forum its hard to keep it civil. Things like the landraider dreadnaut and veteran troops with 6 attacks on the assault don't help my demeanor either. After the guard codex I fear the codex creep here is basically going to create an army of supermarines that beat normal ones in every manner. No rumor so far has proven me wrong. The fact that they are getting a full sized codex likely means that they will be getting a fairly substantial number of new units as well to fill the space. My opinion here is dissapointment. I think that the wolves should have gotten a new half codex with slightly superior assault troops, powerful characters, and poor ranged abilty. What these rumors have stated is that they are getting a full codex with better than berserkers assault troops and I'm still waiting for a rumor that shows them losing any ranged ability.

And I agree with you partially here. If the rumors in this thread are true I will be a sad panda. Space Wolves do need to be inferior to normal marines in many aspects, however, all of the current "half codexes" of divergent chapters are bad, they are terribad. I hope GW redoes all the chapters with their own full codexes. Also you are going about this discussion in such a way as to force all the Space Wolf players to single you out as a devils advocate who needs to be shot down.

Also, Codex Creep is an intelligent business strategy that companies like Wizards of the Coast and Blizzard Entertainment have been abusing for years, Each succesive release needs to be slightly better than the previous- it keeps players in the game spending money. it is going to happen, there is no way to stop it, we all just need to sit back and let each army have their time in the spotlight.

There is a difference between discussing something, voiceing your opinion, and belittleing other players army choice. You have not shown that you understand this difference

I don't like what I'm hearing and just like with the guard rumors I'm debating against the fanbois that refuse to acknowledge when things seem broken or overpowered because "its how it should be".

In any case, if Space Wolves are currently getting so many benefits over regular marines, why aren't there more of them running around the tourney scene killing everything in sight?
As for the Leman Russ Exterminator, it's twice the cost of a similarly dakka predator. That's so overpowered.

I don't mind more powerful units costing more. I don't think the space wolves are currently overpowered. What I want to know is why they cost so much more, because I don't believe that they should. They should be less expensive and less powerful then they currently are to fall in line with their deviant nature of training. They are marines that specialize in close combat, not ultrageneseed supermen who should be twice the point to make up for their increased capabilities. They should cost the same, be better in combat, and worse at range. The old codex and these new rumors seem to imply that they will be more expensive, better at close combat, and the same at range. Which in essence belittles other marine armies for being inferior.

Oooh, and the long fangs. Split fire. Yeah, and for that ability you pay 108 points for 5 models that die just as easily as a regular marine before you choose weapons. The guy that gives the unit this ability is actually the only model in the squad that can be taken away as a casualty before you start removing heavy weapons. They're so worth taking. [/sarcasm]
I'll grant you the Wolf guard's greater number of termie heavy weapons - then again, you have to take 10 of them to get that many assault cannons. Such a squad (equipped otherwise identical to a marine squad, so PF for everyone, and stormbolters for everyone not using a heavy weapon), would set you back 588 points, excluding the character you need them to guard. How much would a 10-man marine terminator squad with 4 asscannons (I'm more of a Cyclone launcher fan, myself) cost, exactly?
At a more normal squad size (4-6 Wolf Guard), you get... 2 heavy weapons. That's such an increase over the amount regular termies got when the codex was written. Oh wait, no it wasn't.
Though I will say that a WG Deathstar unit with SW-unique upgrades (runic charms) are easily a match for the worst other armies can reasonably dish out - including Nob bikerz and seercouncils - at the cost of about a quarter of your army.

These are all good justifications for why the army itself doesn't really do ranged that well. And it all hinges on the fact that the ranged units are overpriced, not bad. Not worse at their job. Not less skilled as they should be given their lack of focus in that area.

What I am debating is whether they should be more expensive and more skilled, not whether they are currently worth it in their current form.

In any case, if Space Wolves are currently getting so many benefits over regular marines, why aren't there more of them running around the tourney scene killing everything in sight?
As for the Leman Russ Exterminator, it's twice the cost of a similarly dakka predator. That's so overpowered.

Because they have one good build, difficult to find and bad models, and a codex that isn't on store shelves anymore with half the unit selection of the normal book. They used to be a powerdex and have suffered in the two revisions of the game since then. That doesn't change the fact that even if largely vulnerable and overcosted much of their book shows them to be superior to regular marines in every facet, which doesn't sit well with me because they shouldn't be.

Also, the reason you're not hearing anything about losing ranged power, is because rumours, for the most part, tend to be about what *is* in the Codex, not what isn't. So far, I've heard no reliable rumours that the LRE is still there, and I'm hedging my bets on the 6A WG and stuff, too.
They're rumours. The Codex is still 4 1/2 months away, at minimum. So they're early rumours. So until we get confirmation/more rumours, chill. It ain't the end of the world (yet).

True, and this should be a much more calm discussion. I made some snarkey comments about questionable and rather extreme rumors and as I said before, every wolf player here jumped on it like I stabbed their dog. I would be happy to discuss the implications and the design choices, rather than a "my army is better" geneseed discussion and a debate on whether the old codex is still viable.

Ok Shuma, I've avoided this debate for a good reason - up until recently it's basically been a flame war. Since it seems to have calmed down a bit I'll offer my input.

Ok, WG with 6 Attacks. Seems overpowered, but compare it to the Honour Guard in C:SM - I can get 5 with them on the Charge quite happily. And they can all have Relic Blades. And a 2+ Save.

So, if we take Wolf Guard to be renamed Honour Guard, give them the LC's and a Chapter Banner (or equivilant) then that's basically the same, but ours get TDA instead of Artificer Armour. Now, Kantor has an ability to give all units +1A - but does not stack with the Chapter Banner. Now, assume there is a SW IC with the ability to give +1A regardless - there is your 6. I would full expect it to be over 600pts for this unit. Now, do you really think that this unit is in any way more fearsome than a Nobz Bikers unit or a Seer Doom Eldrad Council (of Doom)?

Now, Bjorn. Firstly, there has been an AV 14 Raider and an AV 14 Land Speeder running around for a while. I wouldn't expect him to have AV 14 all round, and 14/13/11 or 10 would be fairest, with a price tag of 250/300pts depending on Special Rules. Powerful, but a Melta Weapon or clever tactics can still waste him. However, if you want to argue fluff - remember Bjorn was old when Abbadon and Kharn were young. He fought during the Heresy, led the Wolves afterwards and is the only Marine I can think of bar Brother Captain Aurellian of the Grey Knights who has landed a significant blow against a Daemon Primarch. So his skill and power and not in question. Furthermore, he is the oldest of the Dreadnoughts, and Old = More Powerful. So, if it fits the Fluff and has precedent in game terms, what exactly is your arguement?

Lastly, this issue of "the Wolves shouldn't be harder in CC than anyone else." Catachan was mentioned - now IIRC the main killers on Catachan are the flora, not the fauna. Sure Toads and Devils get a few, but it's mostly poisons, virri and 6 foot man eating plants. Not exactly great CC training.

On Fenris, it is the fauna that takes centre stage. the Wolves of Fenris have not only been described in the background as lethal, but in our current dex and the the EoT 13th Co list as on a par with Astates in terms of CC potential. And Fenrisian youths kill these things with weapons no more advanced than spears and harpoons.

What you don't seem to appricate is the backwardness of Fenris - they don't know what a gun is, but they are literally bred for CC combat against man and beast. And only the stongest of these are recruited for the Wolves. The result of this is Aspirants who are technically very incompetant, but given the Astartes implants and weapons are as skilled, if not more so than their counterparts of a score of campaigns in terms of raw close quarter combat - because until the Wolves pick them, their entire life is training for that.

Compare this to the Ultramarines - each one of their potential recruits undergoes intensive military training in a variety of techniques, producing a well rounded, balanced recruit. A Blood Claws only comprehension of balance is how not to fall over when his axe is jammed in an enemies skull.

Finally - I can appriciate the sentiment about there being too many Marines Codicies. I don't entirely agree with it, but I do believe that if a new Marines Codex is released, they should be justifiably different to the standard one, so as to add something to the metagame.

Surely you can at least agree with that, and that if any Marines army is going to shred the rulebook, it'd be the Wolves?

No one is addressing ShumaGorath's main point particularly well I think. So I'll reiterate it.
All the marine chapters are made of uber badasses who come from horrific worlds and are the toughest of the tough. what about Space Wolves should make them better, so that they cost more?

Geneseed baby. It's all about the geneseed. That, and training. Why you ask? Well, why aren't you angry that GK's are so much more elite than Space Marines? GK's are a chapter too!

I generally agree - the armies should have tradeoffs, but be generally equivalent (n.b. "equivalent" is not "identical"). That said:

SW Long Fangs are fine as Heavies and *do* take the Devastator role, like it or not. You don't get ablative wounds. Neither do Dark Reapers or Obliterators, so suck it up. Leman Russ decreed that was how SW field their Heavies, so if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for you. If Logan Grimmnar wouldn't whine like a little girls, then neither should you. If you guys want ablative wounds for your Devastators that badly, you're free to bend over, surrender your manhood, and pick up a copy of the Codex Astartes like Rogal Dorn and the other wimps did at the Second Founding.

SW Blood Claws are fine as Troops. BC (Sv3+) are *clearly* better than SM Scouts (WS3 Sv4+), and they can take Special CCWs, so crying over that same 1 pt of lost BS is just petty. Especially as they're not primarily a shooting unit.

SW Grey Hunters are also good compared to SM Tacticals, especially as that embedded Tactical Heavy Weapon in now requires a full 10 guys in the Tactical Squad. But again, if you want that Heavy weapons guy in your GH squad, you can get on your knees, kiss some butt, and pick up a copy of the Codex Astartes.

Wolf Guard / Deathwing / Sternguard / Vanguard is basically a wash.

And your Scouts are "good", like the DA / BA ones, but you get bonus rules.

Yes, the SW need some tweaks for 5E. Yes, the Exterminator should move to a Predator (or maybe Land Raider) chassis. Yes, the SW should get more of the standard Marine stuff that's been added (Crusader / Redeemer are obvious).

But there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with the SW as from the concepts laid down at the dawn of Second Edition and carried over into 3rd. Nor is there anything to suggest that SW should be obviously *better* than any other flavor of SM. Just *different*, and that's the point, right? That you're *not* following the Codex Astates.

Yup.

every wolf player here jumped on it like I stabbed their dog.

You didn't stab their dog, you stabbed them. They're Space Puppies!!1!1!!1!!1!11! Get it?

(Crusader / Redeemer are obvious).

The SM Codex Faq already gave them all landraider variants.

All the marine chapters are made of uber badasses who come from horrific worlds and are the toughest of the tough. what about Space Wolves should make them better, so that they cost more?

They have beards, duh.

Ratbarf wrote:

You didn't stab their dog, you stabbed them. They're Space Puppies!!1!1!!1!!1!11! Get it?

HAHAHA!!! That's funny... oh, wait, that's me...Grrrrrr!!

I'm going to answer the "why are SW better than other marines in HTH" without touching fluff. I'm just going to historically look at the actual rules.

Back when Wolves were released they had serveral HTH bonuses over their counterparts or enemy armies.

1 - Extra special CCW. GH and BC squads could have between 3-4 special CCWs in the form of hammers, fists, p-weapons. All other marines only had 1 on the sarge.

2 - Counter Charge. Back when you had kill zones this was huge. The fact that the wolves could close into you to get each guy stuck into the fight was huge. All the wolves swing all the time. Angling your charges for optium HTH attack with minimum counter attack was just not possilbe against the wolves. They always got all their boys stuck in.

3 - True Grit. Effectivily giving all wolves an extra attack. Don't forget, back then BP/CCW was usually reserved for dedicated assault squads and sarges. But for the wolves, each unit had the possibility of having an effective base 2 attacks.

4 - BCs with two attacks on the charge. Damn, just damn. Add in three powerfists you have an effective 12 S8 attacks coming against you when BCs charged.

5 - Characters come with Termi honors standard. Remember that ability. All of the wolves special characters (including wolfguard) had higher than normal attacks, straight from the get go, add in that they all had true grit or bp/ccw and it got even more deadly. It seems a little lack luster now because in general attack charastics have gone up for special characters across the board.


But now many armies, not just marines, benifit from counter charge as it is a 40K basic rule. Many more units have access to effective pistol/ccw or equivilents thus reducing the uniqueness of armies with True Grit. The lack of attack from having a p-fist and pistol is huge against the wolves. Where most armies are only loosing 1 attack, BCs and company could loose as many as 4 attacks.

So yeah, some of the rumors may sound over the top, but they might just be inline with bringing the wolves HTH ability to the forfront just like their last codex did nine years ago.

ShumaGorath wrote:

In any case, if Space Wolves are currently getting so many benefits over regular marines, why aren't there more of them running around the tourney scene killing everything in sight?
As for the Leman Russ Exterminator, it's twice the cost of a similarly dakka predator. That's so overpowered.

I don't mind more powerful units costing more. I don't think the space wolves are currently overpowered. What I want to know is why they cost so much more, because I don't believe that they should. They should be less expensive and less powerful then they currently are to fall in line with their deviant nature of training. They are marines that specialize in close combat, not ultrageneseed supermen who should be twice the point to make up for their increased capabilities. They should cost the same, be better in combat, and worse at range. The old codex and these new rumors seem to imply that they will be more expensive, better at close combat, and the same at range. Which in essence belittles other marine armies for being inferior.

Oooh, and the long fangs. Split fire. Yeah, and for that ability you pay 108 points for 5 models that die just as easily as a regular marine before you choose weapons. The guy that gives the unit this ability is actually the only model in the squad that can be taken away as a casualty before you start removing heavy weapons. They're so worth taking. [/sarcasm]
I'll grant you the Wolf guard's greater number of termie heavy weapons - then again, you have to take 10 of them to get that many assault cannons. Such a squad (equipped otherwise identical to a marine squad, so PF for everyone, and stormbolters for everyone not using a heavy weapon), would set you back 588 points, excluding the character you need them to guard. How much would a 10-man marine terminator squad with 4 asscannons (I'm more of a Cyclone launcher fan, myself) cost, exactly?
At a more normal squad size (4-6 Wolf Guard), you get... 2 heavy weapons. That's such an increase over the amount regular termies got when the codex was written. Oh wait, no it wasn't.
Though I will say that a WG Deathstar unit with SW-unique upgrades (runic charms) are easily a match for the worst other armies can reasonably dish out - including Nob bikerz and seercouncils - at the cost of about a quarter of your army.

These are all good justifications for why the army itself doesn't really do ranged that well. And it all hinges on the fact that the ranged units are overpriced, not bad. Not worse at their job. Not less skilled as they should be given their lack of focus in that area.

What I am debating is whether they should be more expensive and more skilled, not whether they are currently worth it in their current form.

In any case, if Space Wolves are currently getting so many benefits over regular marines, why aren't there more of them running around the tourney scene killing everything in sight?
As for the Leman Russ Exterminator, it's twice the cost of a similarly dakka predator. That's so overpowered.

Because they have one good build, difficult to find and bad models, and a codex that isn't on store shelves anymore with half the unit selection of the normal book. They used to be a powerdex and have suffered in the two revisions of the game since then. That doesn't change the fact that even if largely vulnerable and overcosted much of their book shows them to be superior to regular marines in every facet, which doesn't sit well with me because they shouldn't be.

Also, the reason you're not hearing anything about losing ranged power, is because rumours, for the most part, tend to be about what *is* in the Codex, not what isn't. So far, I've heard no reliable rumours that the LRE is still there, and I'm hedging my bets on the 6A WG and stuff, too.
They're rumours. The Codex is still 4 1/2 months away, at minimum. So they're early rumours. So until we get confirmation/more rumours, chill. It ain't the end of the world (yet).

True, and this should be a much more calm discussion. I made some snarkey comments about questionable and rather extreme rumors and as I said before, every wolf player here jumped on it like I stabbed their dog. I would be happy to discuss the implications and the design choices, rather than a "my army is better" geneseed discussion and a debate on whether the old codex is still viable.

Okay this is a much more reasonable point.

Basically you feel that the deviant training of the space wolves means that they should have some disadvantages in shooting to match their advantages in cc. Basically you seem to think that more time spent training for cc means that wolves should be bs 3 or some other drawback.

I would argue that the disadvantages for their deviant training are already included in the list.

Say we have terry the tactical marine. In a 24 hour day Terry spends 8 hours training to be a tactical marine, 8 hours training to be an assault marine and 8 hours training to be a devastator marine.

In contrast Gary the Grey Hunter spends 24 hours a day training to be a Grey Hunter.

Does this mean we expect Gary to be firing his bolter at bs3? No, he is training to fire his bolter. What he isn't training to do is to use a jetpack and this is reflected in our jetpack troops being bw and ws 3, having no veteran jet pack troops and not being able to use jet packs on characters.

He also isn't training to use a heavy weapon, which is why he can't use one and won't be able to use one until he becomes an old man, gives up being a line troop and starts training with heavy weapons 24 hours a day.

Now I can see why you'd object to long fangs getting split fire (frankly I do too) because it seems to indicate that they are superior heavy weapons troops. In fact it is meant to demonstrate the fact that the pack has worked together all their life, in contrast to how marine squads work.

So the loss for having better line troops is that we have worse assault marine equivalents and, I take your point, we should have worse devastator equivalents (we do but not in a fluff sense purely in a gameplay sense because there are no ablative wounds).

I should also point out that our deviant training in focusing on 2 cc's and counter attack also causes us to lose combat squads and combat tactics.

I will eat my hat if wolves get combat tactics in the next codex. They will undoubtedly count stubborn or counter attack as our version of it. I would also be surprised if we got combat squads because space wolves fight in packs, not squads.

So that is a loss of combat squads, combat tactics and worse jump troops in exchange for 2cc weapons, counter charge and nmto which will probably be changed to stubborn.

Does that still honestly not look like wolves have lost something to you?
And that's without taking into account gene-seed and the world they recruit from, which are perfectly reasonable arguments too.

Again, do you take issue with Grey Knights being a more elite version of marines? What about templar vows?


I actually agree with you fully about 6 attack on the charge wolf guard. It does sound silly and I'd rather have toned down wg that are cheap enough to actually use. However to put it in perspective it is already possible to combo honour guard in such a way that they get 6 attacks on the charge. We don't know the cost or mechanics of this ability so it might be a combo with a special character that costs 800pts for all we know.

av14 bjorn when titans aren't is a little odd but frankly I think that's an issue with titans personally. It's not like he'd be unkillable and he is supposed to be one of the toughest things in the universe.

ShumaGorath wrote:I don't mind more powerful units costing more. I don't think the space wolves are currently overpowered. What I want to know is why they cost so much more, because I don't believe that they should. They should be less expensive and less powerful then they currently are to fall in line with their deviant nature of training. They are marines that specialize in close combat, not ultrageneseed supermen who should be twice the point to make up for their increased capabilities. They should cost the same, be better in combat, and worse at range. The old codex and these new rumors seem to imply that they will be more expensive, better at close combat, and the same at range. Which in essence belittles other marine armies for being inferior.

True, and this should be a much more calm discussion. I made some snarkey comments about questionable and rather extreme rumors and as I said before, every wolf player here jumped on it like I stabbed their dog. I would be happy to discuss the implications and the design choices, rather than a "my army is better" geneseed discussion and a debate on whether the old codex is still viable.

Okay, that sounds like a much more reasonable position than "Wolves should not have a codex and are just marines in grey armour", which is more or less what everyone got all riled up about.
Problem is that part of the reason they currently cost so much more is that their codex is 9 yrs old. Another is that, as a rule, they carry more equipment than regular marines - or at least, they used to. Finally, the Wolves' emphasis on close combat replaces their access to heavy weapons in favour of close-ranged weaponry and special designed to reflect their greater emphasis on close range fights - and let's not start arguing that wolves are just as good at regular marines at longranged, because they're not. Problem with that is that in 40K, close-range, and specifically close combat is (or was), as a rule, more powerful game-mechanic wise than (longrange) shooting.
For example, a whole squad can be lost to combat in one go because 1 armour save was failed - shooting can't do that. So, in order to preserve game balance, marines that are better in cc than ranged should be slightly more expensive - at least that was the case when the old codex was written. These reasons have nothing to do with the geneseed or SW being genetically superior to regular marines.
(Although, before the Crusade, the Wolves did have more victories than every other Legion, except Horus' Luna Wolves, and Jonson's Dark Angels (because the DA had been around for longer - and kicked the 1K Sons Legion off their homeworld all by their lonesome. And how many Marine Chapters actually recruit from Deathworlds? To my knowledge, the Wolves, the Dark Angels -old fluff, anyway-, and IIRC the Blood Angels. That's it.)

I can't say a single sensible thing about how things are going to be in the new codex, because I simply don't have enough info on it. Only thing I will say is that the rumours we've seen so far have zero information on the new wolves' ranged abilities, so there's basically no reason for or point to complaining about it.

And FYI, the reason every Wolf player jumped on you, is that those of us who managed to stay true to Russ' call over almost a decade of neglect are pretty psyched that we're finally getting our day in the sun again. We're just happy we're finally getting a new Codex. We (or at least, I - can't speak for everyone, after all), just want a shiny new book, shiny new models and rules that reflect the Wolves' character. The old codex, IMO actually does the latter pretty well. I do not give a flying f*** about its power level.
And along comes you, basically trying to rain on our parade. Is it any wonder that people this dedicated to an army get upset when someone begrudges us a long-overdue new Codex? You're honestly surprised at this?

Basing any debate on Rumors is foolhardy. Some of them are certainly wrong and some will proven to be right and some will be not totally right, but in the same ballpark.

GW needs to better define the 'technophobia' of the SWs. They created the Predator Annihilator (at least, in the Predator fluff article in WD, they did) by refitting the turrets with lascannons from their Long Fang Packs. Which to me says, they don't mind tinkering with tech, so why would they be techno-phobes? Now, if GW retcons so they didn't create the Pred-Ann, fine. I don't care one way or the other, but it'd be nice if they were consistent. They don't like new tech, so they don't adopt the LRR, but the LRC is okay? Huh?

In second edition, SWs had a 'codex' progression. Neophytes were Scouts, the BCs, then GHs, then Wolf Guard or Long Fangs. In third edition, they re-did it. Neophytes are Blood Claws, then Grey Hunters. Then, if they're loners, they become Scouts. If they're great, they become Wolf Guard. Otherwise, the eventually become Long Fangs.

My guess is that GW is trying to make them significantly divergent, partially by taking away standard SM kit, to avoid the 'everyone will play Blue Space Wolves' aka 'my DAs are Green Marines' that plague the revolving SM codex issue.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I find the various death world Fluff to be more than a little hokey, so whenever I read that kind of stuff, my eyes start rolling back in my head...

ALL the fluff is a little hokey. But, yes, the Deathworld stuff is probably a little worse. So, in the far future, there's a backwards planet that is so tough that the plants can kill a man, but they have a big enough population to field multiple regiments for the Emperor's service. I guess the plants only attack adults and throw the kids back because they're not big enough (much like fishing).

dienekes96 wrote:Simple. Space Wolf players are the creme of the hobby, and they deserve the finest in army builds to match their indisputable character, their panache, and their good looks.

Damn right. GW knows their audience well.

I can't wait

Jayden63 wrote:I'm going to answer the "why are SW better than other marines in HTH" without touching fluff. I'm just going to historically look at the actual rules.

Back when Wolves were released they had serveral HTH bonuses over their counterparts or enemy armies.

1 - Extra special CCW. GH and BC squads could have between 3-4 special CCWs in the form of hammers, fists, p-weapons. All other marines only had 1 on the sarge.

2 - Counter Charge. Back when you had kill zones this was huge. The fact that the wolves could close into you to get each guy stuck into the fight was huge. All the wolves swing all the time. Angling your charges for optium HTH attack with minimum counter attack was just not possilbe against the wolves. They always got all their boys stuck in.

3 - True Grit. Effectivily giving all wolves an extra attack. Don't forget, back then BP/CCW was usually reserved for dedicated assault squads and sarges. But for the wolves, each unit had the possibility of having an effective base 2 attacks.

4 - BCs with two attacks on the charge. Damn, just damn. Add in three powerfists you have an effective 12 S8 attacks coming against you when BCs charged.

5 - Characters come with Termi honors standard. Remember that ability. All of the wolves special characters (including wolfguard) had higher than normal attacks, straight from the get go, add in that they all had true grit or bp/ccw and it got even more deadly. It seems a little lack luster now because in general attack charastics have gone up for special characters across the board.


But now many armies, not just marines, benifit from counter charge as it is a 40K basic rule. Many more units have access to effective pistol/ccw or equivilents thus reducing the uniqueness of armies with True Grit. The lack of attack from having a p-fist and pistol is huge against the wolves. Where most armies are only loosing 1 attack, BCs and company could loose as many as 4 attacks.

So yeah, some of the rumors may sound over the top, but they might just be inline with bringing the wolves HTH ability to the forfront just like their last codex did nine years ago.

/second

All that and you didn't even touch 2nd edition Wolves

2nd Ed Grey Hunters/Blood Claws/Long Fangs had WS5
2nd Ed. Marines/CSM/KHORNE BERSERKERS WS4
2nd Ed. SM/CSM Veterans WS5
2nd Ed. Wolf Guard WS6

Wolves have always been powerful in CC (whether you look at fluff or just gaming history).

Why are SW better? I believe that has been asked an answered. I'd be happy to engage in a more formal debate on that topic, but my researched responses were ignored (for the most part) in the other thread on why SW "deserve" a Codex, so why bother putting the effort into a post that will be primarily ignored by the intended audience.

I will give a short answer. Before SW threads, there was no Mastiff. With some possible SW threads, Mastiff has returned. That validates their release as well as anything else I could state.

New info from BoLS.

Whispers on the wind tell us the following:

Space Wolves have two new main sets planned:
-Wolf Guard in Terminator armour.
-Plastic Long Fangs set.

Currently the Grey Hunters and Blood Claws aren't getting much of a makeover; however, there is the high probability of a BT/DA style upgrade box/sprue.

There will also be several new metal figures released.

Continued talk and chatter is gelling around a September release slot for the Sons of Russ.

Plastic Long Fangs makes me think they'll have different weapon options than a dev squad, either more or less. If they push the 'SW don't like new tech' idea, maybe it'll be the same as Chaos Havoc load-outs. Who wouldn't like to see Long Fangs with autocannons (assuming points are right)? Terminator boxset makes me think they'll get different options too - maybe Stormbolter and Power Weapon as standard, but can upgrade to combi-weapons and powerfists.

"New" Long Fangs will use the plastic Heavy Weapons sprue, instead of the current metal weapons. Anybody likes the metal guns, better get them while you can!

"New" Blood Claws will be dead easy: take 2 new sprues of 5 Assault Marines, hold the JP sprues. That makes 10 *running* BP&CCW Marines instead of the standing models we currently have. Toss in a new SW upgrade sprue, and you're all done.

"New" Grey Hunters would similarly use the new 10-man Tactical Sprue, swapping the Tactical upgrade sprue for a SW upgrade sprue.

Terminators, I don't know if it's as easy as throwing in an upgrade sprue or not.

But no more mixed-metal marines for you guys. And probably a good thing, now that GW's plastics fit together so nicely. Making metal Devs was such a pain.

Unless the rules radically change I will not be buying any long fangs, plastic or otherwise but yay for a new box.

New wolfguard termies was practically a given. Hopefully the box has a ton of gear and different options rather than being the standard marine termies with wolfy bitz. Nobody uses wolfguard with all p-fists so please don't put that in the box.

BC/GH refresh could go one of two ways. New sprues are generally a good thing and with every year GW improves but the current SW upgrade sprue is absolutely awesome!. Any new one better come with a p-fist, 2 power weapons, meltagun, wolf pelt, wolfy shoulder pad and wolf backpack at the very least.


New metal models sounds good, hopefully a new bjorn, ragnar, ulrik, njal and this new wulfen guy. If not all of those then some more metal wolf guard please (all but 1 of the current figs are 2nd ed models)

I'm still hoping for a Bjorn in plastic. Maybe wishful thinking, but I definitely prefer plastic dreads over the metals.

Ratbarf wrote: Though this could conflict with the rule that all models that start a combat able to fight are able to do so regardless of causualties.

I get that i'm really late to respond to this, but what? Where does it say this? Seriously i have never heard this before, i'm not mocking you, and i'm not being a dick, where does it say this in the rulebook? I could really use a page number.

Wow, I have never seen a thread so full of ignorance. I played Space Wolves back in 3rd edition (one of my favorite armies I might add), and I remember more about their fluff then most people seem to remember, so I will explain a few things.

Space Wolves are not better, they are just different with a totally unique organization. If anything they are a Pre-heresy Marine Legion with thier own unique slants.

Rules wise, very little should change. Space Wolves has always been about close combat and heroes. And the current codex reflects this. They should have ungodly close combat. They should have crazy squad configurations due to their organization. And they should always be out numbered compared to normal marines. That is the joy of playing this army.

Personally, I would like to see a 4 codex structure applied to Space Marines and Chaos.

Space Marines - Codex Space Marines, Codex Space Wolves, Codex Black Templars, Codex Angels of Death

Chaos - Codex Space Marines, Codex Deamons, Codex Traitors, Codex Legions

I want the Space wolves but I am just hoping that the Blood Claws don't get changed too much.

Depends on what you consider 'too much'. They'll still be vikings in power armor, that won't change.

Rumor is lose Berserk Charge, but gain WS4 and Furious Charge. I would guess the number of powerfists/weapons gets reduced.

Hopefully, they also gain Rage.

dietrich wrote:Depends on what you consider 'too much'. They'll still be vikings in power armor, that won't change.

Rumor is lose Berserk Charge, but gain WS4 and Furious Charge. I would guess the number of powerfists/weapons gets reduced.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if squads were limited to two specials, including power fists and power weapons. Before the Guard book, I would've said there was no way Blood Claws would get berzerk charge. Now, I'm not so sure. My money is still on them losing it though.

dietrich wrote:Depends on what you consider 'too much'. They'll still be vikings in power armor, that won't change.

Rumor is lose Berserk Charge, but gain WS4 and Furious Charge. I would guess the number of powerfists/weapons gets reduced.

That would suck. WS4 and furious charge is not an acceptable replacement for the loss of special CCW and 2 attacks on the charge.

Remember we want wolves to be different. There are tons of things out there that have furious charge and are WS4. The old way they were unique, this just moves them closer to blue marines and none of us want that.

Berzerk charge is exactly what I wanted them to keep.

I currently field 30 blood claws. totaling 120 attacks on charge 24 of which are power weapon attacks.
I mean its such a fun ability.

15 BCs, no special weapons charge MEQs. 60 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 5 failed saves. 10 MEQs strike simultaneously. 7 hits (WS 4 vs 3), 4 wounds, 1 failed save. Ld at -4.

15 BCs, Furious Charge, WS 4. 45 attacks at Init 5. 23 hits. 15 wounds (Str 5), 5 failed saves. 5 MEQs strike back at Init 4. 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 1.25 wounds - likely no lost BCs. Ld at -5.

About the same effect. Personally, I'd rather have WS4 and Furious Charge and some power weapons. It blunts some of the BC hitting power, but WS 4 makes them more durable (since less attacks will hit), and FC means they're killing opponents before they strike (which means less attacks too).

Either way, unless they're in a Land Raider or equipped bikes/jump packs, they can still only assault 12 inches, which gives them too short a threat range from my tastes.

If BC get furious charge, ill have to change them all from Pfists to Pweps

then all my current Pfisty blood claws will be converted to power armor wolf guard.

Demogerg wrote:If BC get furious charge, ill have to change them all from Pfists to Pweps

then all my current Pfisty blood claws will be converted to power armor wolf guard.

You're too kind. Mine will be converted to chew toys for my chiuhuahua, like every other hunk of plastic GW has decided is no longer useable. I have a feeling my dog will be fat n' happy this fall.

If the Island of Lost Toys ever stages a revolution, GW will be the first against the wall.

Someone needs to develop an APOC datasheet for all the invalidated models. That would be quite the army.

SC are Storm Claws? Storm Claws are cool. Probably provide a more fast attack type role.

I think he means Special Characters....



Clay

Mastiff wrote:

Demogerg wrote:If BC get furious charge, ill have to change them all from Pfists to Pweps

then all my current Pfisty blood claws will be converted to power armor wolf guard.

You're too kind. Mine will be converted to chew toys for my chiuhuahua, like every other hunk of plastic GW has decided is no longer useable. I have a feeling my dog will be fat n' happy this fall.

If the Island of Lost Toys ever stages a revolution, GW will be the first against the wall.

wow, overreact much? gw can and should alter unit options to fit the current edition rules as appropriate; furious charge and rage is exactly what's described in the fluff for blood claws. consider yourself lucky that you don't get a crappy white dwarf codex like the other 3rd edition munchkin army, the Blood Angels. they simply lost most of their flavor and effectiveness. the SW were incredibly overpowered when they first came out and it took the last 8 years to average out the benefits they had with other armies (nontargetable PW/PF, cheaper special weapons for non-ICs, etc). flavor and uniqueness does not mean "give me something more powerful than everyone else has and don't let them have it afterwards". it means you're different from codex marines in equipment choices and SOME rules, not different from everything else in the whole 40k universe.

I would argue that Blood Claws will probably be the crux of this army when it comes to flavor.

As much as I would like to see an actual unit in 40k get Rage, it would seem odd that Blood Claws have it and Beserkers don't. Though I can see GW saying "screw it" and giving the Blood Claws rage anyways.

Here is what I would personally like to see in the two troop choices:

Grey Hunters - Unit Size 5 to 10 - Marine Stats, has Counter Charge, BP/CCW and Bolter Standard. Up to 3 Marines can take Special Weapon or Special Close Combat Weapon.

Blood Claws - Unit Size 10 to 20 - Marine Stats with WS and BS 3, BP/CCW, Furious Charge, Rage, Berserker Charge, Up to 3 Marines can take Special Close Combat Weapon.

That would keep Grey Hunters in their roll of the foremost line troops, but make Blood Claws a scary albeit limited alternative.

What does rage do? I don't play fantasy. (I assume thats where it comes from.)

Mastiff wrote:You're too kind. Mine will be converted to chew toys for my chiuhuahua, like every other hunk of plastic GW has decided is no longer useable. I have a feeling my dog will be fat n' happy this fall.

I really hope you don't actually do this as this sounds like a recipe for an expensive intestinal blockage.

warboss wrote:

Mastiff wrote:

Demogerg wrote:If BC get furious charge, ill have to change them all from Pfists to Pweps

then all my current Pfisty blood claws will be converted to power armor wolf guard.

You're too kind. Mine will be converted to chew toys for my chiuhuahua, like every other hunk of plastic GW has decided is no longer useable. I have a feeling my dog will be fat n' happy this fall.

If the Island of Lost Toys ever stages a revolution, GW will be the first against the wall.

wow, overreact much?

Try and keep a sense of humour. You'll live longer.

After 25 years of painting the little buggers, I've come to greet each new Codex with a sphincter-tightening grimace as a I hope another 50+ hours of painting and converting isn't about to be binned because GW thinks they've finally found the "right" formula, which doesn't include most of the plastic and metal sitting on my shelf. Yes I'm cynical. I also thought the hyberbole was vaguely amusing and obvious. Apologies if I frightened you. I shall endeavour to be more gentle in my griping in the future.

Mahu wrote:
Blood Claws - Unit Size 10 to 20 - Marine Stats with WS and BS 3, BP/CCW, Furious Charge, Rage, Berserker Charge, Up to 3 Marines can take Special Close Combat Weapon.

I'd be concerned that Furious Charge, Rage and Berserker Charge would drive the cost per model up too much and would force smaller units. Right now the relatively low cost encourages large mobs, which is part of the appeal of the unit IMO.

Balance wrote:I really hope you don't actually do this as this sounds like a recipe for an expensive intestinal blockage.

Don't worry, her teeth put most garbage disposals to shame. It'll slide right through her. Little know fact, Vermin Brown makes a very effective laxitive.

What does rage do? I don't play fantasy. (I assume thats where it comes from.)

Rage is actually a USR introduced in the fifth edition rulebook. Basically it a "always move towards the enemy" rule, it never comes up because currently no codex uses it (or has a rule similar). I expect Death Company and Khorne Berserkers to get it whenever they get a "true" fifth edition codex.

I'd be concerned that Furious Charge, Rage and Berserker Charge would drive the cost per model up too much and would force smaller units. Right now the relatively low cost encourages large mobs, which is part of the appeal of the unit IMO.

I don't think that will be the case, even if they do go with what I am proposing. In order to field such large numbers they would have to be walking, most of the time in fifth you will see them in Rhinos or Drop Pods anyways as the new IG kills large walking power armor squads. That has it's own disadvantages when it comes to setting up assaults, so when they hit, they need to hit hard. I doubt in most competitive play they would be worth more then 16 points.

I think one of the new IG Special Characters has the rule. The Rough Rider SC IIRC.

Mahu wrote:

What does rage do? I don't play fantasy. (I assume thats where it comes from.)

Rage is actually a USR introduced in the fifth edition rulebook. Basically it a "always move towards the enemy" rule, it never comes up because currently no codex uses it (or has a rule similar). I expect Death Company and Khorne Berserkers to get it whenever they get a "true" fifth edition codex.

Ahh, I must have missed that one, because I've never seen it actually called that. I got a buddy who played BA a ton, but it wasn't called that back in the day.

Aye, wasn't it called "Black Rage"?

Sounds to me like the Wolves are going to be the loyal version of Khorne now. Especially if they are getting a character that has to be dropped via a private pod, and respected with the same 20 foot pole World Eaters give Kharne the betrayer.

Very very eager to see the final codex.

Psi wrote:
Sounds to me like the Wolves are going to be the loyal version of Khorne now. Especially if they are getting a character that has to be dropped via a private pod, and respected with the same 20 foot pole World Eaters give Kharne the betrayer.

Very very eager to see the final codex.

They always kind of were though...

I remember when my Khorne bud played against me with my 13th company army a bunch of times. When our lords clashed, there was an explosion of blood and body parts everywhere.

Blood for the Wolf guard?

Yeah, I've heard stories of 13th Co vs. World Eater games before. Basically mass carnage and over pretty quick.

Ozymandias wrote:Yeah, I've heard stories of 13th Co vs. World Eater games before. Basically mass carnage and over pretty quick.

WE vs. 13th is like watching a destruction derby. Everything smashes together and the winner is the last one who can still crawl out of the wreckage.

I don't play Space Wolves, but If I do a loyalist Power Armour Army, that'll be it.

50 points for termie armour I think will be shown up as wrong, I mean, 50 points...

The redst of it sounds quite plausible though, and this Dreadnought Lord man sounds awesome. I can't wait.

I don't think that will be the case, even if they do go with what I am proposing. In order to field such large numbers they would have to be walking, most of the time in fifth you will see them in Rhinos or Drop Pods anyways as the new IG kills large walking power armor squads. That has it's own disadvantages when it comes to setting up assaults, so when they hit, they need to hit hard. I doubt in most competitive play they would be worth more then 16 points.

You forgot about the LRC! 15 BC's with a Rune Priest with PF's and PW's is pure awesome!

I don't care about the rules just give me some new models!!!!

OOMBATOO O`MALLY wrote:I don't care about the rules just give me some new models!!!!

QFT.
i bought the limited twin lightning claw wolf guard, a certain "Odin Knight" from a certain non GW company, and i already own every other space wolf character and unit type, just working on fleshing out my vehicles right now. (working on a scratchbuild titan as well)

Odin Knight? Link please. Yea Ive got every Wolf peice ever made, But now I need MOOORE!

I found these interesting tidbits on the Space Wolves forum posted by Renshijim after GD Baltimore.

Space wolves, ok no one wanted to speak on anything of the wolf codex but I did manage to speak to the folly twins that are working the new models and they say that the wolves are getting more models and attention the the other chapters did. (I.e. black templars, blood angels, and dark angels) also the one thing I did find out from just about everyone is that the special characters of the wolves are close combat killers, so far the playtesters said that getting into close combat with a wolf character meant you will lose. sounds interesting to me and I hope that the rest of the army are just as deadly in close combat.

Obviously false.

GW doesn't have playtesters.

OOMBATOO O`MALLY wrote:Odin Knight? Link please. Yea Ive got every Wolf peice ever made, But now I need MOOORE!

I actually just got him in the mail from Italy yesterday, its already primed and assembled, ill slap the inital few layers of paint anf post a pic for you later today.

completely OT post here.
but these are the pics of the "Odin Knight" model i refered to earlier. obviously unfinished, I just slapped the first layer of space puppies grey on it for a little contrast.






and then here is an image of the original sculpt.
http://www.theronin.it/inserzioni/img/Leman-Russ_green2.jpg

BDJV wrote:I found these interesting tidbits on the Space Wolves forum posted by Renshijim after GD Baltimore.

Space wolves, ok no one wanted to speak on anything of the wolf codex but I did manage to speak to the folly twins that are working the new models and they say that the wolves are getting more models and attention the the other chapters did. (I.e. black templars, blood angels, and dark angels) also the one thing I did find out from just about everyone is that the special characters of the wolves are close combat killers, so far the playtesters said that getting into close combat with a wolf character meant you will lose. sounds interesting to me and I hope that the rest of the army are just as deadly in close combat.

Of course, in 5th edition, this isn't all that it is cracked up to be!

They will basically auto-win CC, and then auto get shot to death next turn...

Unless, of course, they have a new special rule that, say, allows them to consolidate into combat?

Alpharius wrote:

BDJV wrote:I found these interesting tidbits on the Space Wolves forum posted by Renshijim after GD Baltimore.

Space wolves, ok no one wanted to speak on anything of the wolf codex but I did manage to speak to the folly twins that are working the new models and they say that the wolves are getting more models and attention the the other chapters did. (I.e. black templars, blood angels, and dark angels) also the one thing I did find out from just about everyone is that the special characters of the wolves are close combat killers, so far the playtesters said that getting into close combat with a wolf character meant you will lose. sounds interesting to me and I hope that the rest of the army are just as deadly in close combat.

Of course, in 5th edition, this isn't all that it is cracked up to be!

They will basically auto-win CC, and then auto get shot to death next turn...

Unless, of course, they have a new special rule that, say, allows them to consolidate into combat?

That is what tactics are for ...instead of sending an overkill SW squad, just send like one blood claw per 5 enemy terminators so that the enemy can just barely hold out for the initial assault .

BDJV wrote:I found these interesting tidbits on the Space Wolves forum posted by Renshijim after GD Baltimore.

I wonder when this will pop up on BoLS...

So that someone can start a new thread about it here...

Alpharius wrote:

BDJV wrote:I found these interesting tidbits on the Space Wolves forum posted by Renshijim after GD Baltimore.

Space wolves, ok no one wanted to speak on anything of the wolf codex but I did manage to speak to the folly twins that are working the new models and they say that the wolves are getting more models and attention the the other chapters did. (I.e. black templars, blood angels, and dark angels) also the one thing I did find out from just about everyone is that the special characters of the wolves are close combat killers, so far the playtesters said that getting into close combat with a wolf character meant you will lose. sounds interesting to me and I hope that the rest of the army are just as deadly in close combat.

Of course, in 5th edition, this isn't all that it is cracked up to be!

They will basically auto-win CC, and then auto get shot to death next turn...

Unless, of course, they have a new special rule that, say, allows them to consolidate into combat?

2d6 consolidation? Or may consolidate into an enemy model (or at least ignore the 1" rule).

barlio wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

BDJV wrote:I found these interesting tidbits on the Space Wolves forum posted by Renshijim after GD Baltimore.

Space wolves, ok no one wanted to speak on anything of the wolf codex but I did manage to speak to the folly twins that are working the new models and they say that the wolves are getting more models and attention the the other chapters did. (I.e. black templars, blood angels, and dark angels) also the one thing I did find out from just about everyone is that the special characters of the wolves are close combat killers, so far the playtesters said that getting into close combat with a wolf character meant you will lose. sounds interesting to me and I hope that the rest of the army are just as deadly in close combat.

Of course, in 5th edition, this isn't all that it is cracked up to be!

They will basically auto-win CC, and then auto get shot to death next turn...

Unless, of course, they have a new special rule that, say, allows them to consolidate into combat?

2d6 consolidation? Or may consolidate into an enemy model (or at least ignore the 1" rule).

Something like that sounds workable, sure.

Of course, GW might not think that far ahead, forget all the annoying details about 5th and not take it into account at all.

Anything's possible!

BDJV wrote:I found these interesting tidbits on the Space Wolves forum posted by Renshijim after GD Baltimore.

Space wolves, ok no one wanted to speak on anything of the wolf codex but I did manage to speak to the folly twins that are working the new models and they say that the wolves are getting more models and attention the the other chapters did. (I.e. black templars, blood angels, and dark angels) also the one thing I did find out from just about everyone is that the special characters of the wolves are close combat killers, so far the playtesters said that getting into close combat with a wolf character meant you will lose. sounds interesting to me and I hope that the rest of the army are just as deadly in close combat.

I can only assume the Folly Twins means the Perry Twins. Who, unless they were blatantly lying, are almost exclusively sculpting LOTR. One of the brothers stated he had NEVER sculpted a Space Marine, while the other had only sculpted a few. Just a data point to judge the remainder of the rumors.

dienekes96 wrote:

BDJV wrote:I found these interesting tidbits on the Space Wolves forum posted by Renshijim after GD Baltimore.

Space wolves, ok no one wanted to speak on anything of the wolf codex but I did manage to speak to the folly twins that are working the new models and they say that the wolves are getting more models and attention the the other chapters did. (I.e. black templars, blood angels, and dark angels) also the one thing I did find out from just about everyone is that the special characters of the wolves are close combat killers, so far the playtesters said that getting into close combat with a wolf character meant you will lose. sounds interesting to me and I hope that the rest of the army are just as deadly in close combat.

I can only assume the Folly Twins means the Perry Twins. Who, unless they were blatantly lying, are almost exclusively sculpting LOTR. One of the brothers stated he had NEVER sculpted a Space Marine, while the other had only sculpted a few. Just a data point to judge the remainder of the rumors.

I don't know where you get your info from, but both Perrys have worked on Space Marines since the Rogue Trader era. We have them to thank for the original Calgar no less: http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt105lordmacragge.htm They just have been more focused on IG related minis for 40k before they went to work on LotR. They also designed both of the new IG Command Squads, so they are not that "exclusively" LotR, at least not anymore.

temprus wrote:I don't know where you get your info from, but both Perrys have worked on Space Marines since the Rogue Trader era. We have them to thank for the original Calgar no less: http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt105lordmacragge.htm They just have been more focused on IG related minis for 40k before they went to work on LotR. They also designed both of the new IG Command Squads, so they are not that "exclusively" LotR, at least not anymore.

Somebody actually sculpted Marneus Calgar on a toilet... What an epic model.

Alpharius wrote:

BDJV wrote:I found these interesting tidbits on the Space Wolves forum posted by Renshijim after GD Baltimore.

Space wolves, ok no one wanted to speak on anything of the wolf codex but I did manage to speak to the folly twins that are working the new models and they say that the wolves are getting more models and attention the the other chapters did. (I.e. black templars, blood angels, and dark angels) also the one thing I did find out from just about everyone is that the special characters of the wolves are close combat killers, so far the playtesters said that getting into close combat with a wolf character meant you will lose. sounds interesting to me and I hope that the rest of the army are just as deadly in close combat.

Of course, in 5th edition, this isn't all that it is cracked up to be!

They will basically auto-win CC, and then auto get shot to death next turn...

Unless, of course, they have a new special rule that, say, allows them to consolidate into combat?

At the moment, any of the SW HQ guys can have 6 power weapon attacks on the charge, 7 attacks on the counter charge. Hitting on 3+ at S5 at I5. That seems pretty damn beefy already even without looking at the other 10 guys that they are joined to. So yeah, having their character models clean house in HTH will be just par for the course.

Before the new chaos codex came out I played with a character heavy low model count Emperor's Children list. Now that list doesn't work anymore, so I'm really looking forward to what the new Wolves can do. Especially since SW are the only marine chapter I'd ever consider playing.

temprus wrote:I don't know where you get your info from, but both Perrys have worked on Space Marines since the Rogue Trader era. We have them to thank for the original Calgar no less: http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt105lordmacragge.htm They just have been more focused on IG related minis for 40k before they went to work on LotR. They also designed both of the new IG Command Squads, so they are not that "exclusively" LotR, at least not anymore.

Well, I got it directly from their mouths when they were asked about models they had worked on during the Q&A at Games Day. So my info comes from Alan and Michael Perry. Does that work?

I'm coming into this thread a bit late but wtf, right? I could not be happier about the SW not getting TH/SS as lightning claws make sooo much more sense to spess wulf mentality imo. Couple that with the squad of assault terminators that always swing 1st on a sucessful psychic check being gone from 40k forever and I'm happy. The TH/SS swing 1st guys should have been an apoc datasheet for + 200pts anyways IMO.

dienekes96 wrote:Well, I got it directly from their mouths when they were asked about models they had worked on during the Q&A at Games Day. So my info comes from Alan and Michael Perry. Does that work?

Unless they were being sarcastic, they either have amnesia or old age is setting in then. Admittedly, they may feel they are "exclusively" LotR even though they do a few non-LotR every few months.

Hence my use of the word "almost" before exclusively.

One of the brothers said he had sculpted three or four Marines. The other brother, zero. That is what they said on 9 May 2009.

dienekes96 wrote:Hence my use of the word "almost" before exclusively.

One of the brothers said he had sculpted three or four Marines. The other brother, zero. That is what they said on 9 May 2009.

pfffft. They're geriatric hippies. You didn't actually believe what they said, did you? They prolly just wanted to brush you off so they could get back to smoking their patchouli.

Thanks Demogerg sweet pics That guy could pass for Leman Russ himself

I'll be happy just so long as our CC-uberness doesn't kill all of our shooting...

Death By Monkeys wrote:

Bjorn sounds badass, though.

meh...Simple Jack the Deff Dredd will kick his butt.

BOLS is reporting an october release date

dashrendar wrote:BOLS is reporting an october release date

LOUD NOISES!!!

I found this posted on the B&C by VonMerrick.

I was talking to someone with the company at Games Day and the fact that the wolves were my first army came up. I asked about the future of the Leman Russ tank in the army list and he hesitated, and asked if I would be really mad if they took it out. When I hesitated a bit, thinking it over, he countered with "What if they got a unique predator variant to compensate for the loss of the Russ?".

Between new Wolf art being done, the blurb in the White Dwarf, and my friend from Games Day, it's really appearing obvious that the wolves are on their way. No its just a question of will i get my Iron Warriors done before the release ( I am so slow anymore, and agonize over every detail..that i mess up!)

One more confirmation that the LRE is going away.

CC will never kill shooting. You always have a turn to blast them to hell after they've swept 1 squad (maybe 2 if they sucked another in). I swear, if they give them consolidation into CC I'm gonna be pissed. Chaos deserves it a thousand times more than marienzzz.

Templar deserve it more....

Everyone in 5th edition deserved it...

Don't know if anyone else noticed but the latest White Dwarf #353, has a blurb in their news section.

"Recently we've heard howls of anquish from the games developers and 'Eavy Metal have been ordering in a lot of grey paint. What could it all mean! Keep reading over the next few issues to find out!"

It means I am going to be biting my nails in anticipation of whether SW will be either Bland Hammered into obscurity or Broken as all Hell.

Cadaver wrote:

dashrendar wrote:BOLS is reporting an october release date

LOUD NOISES!!!

Certainly, but loud noises that deliver, no less.

Makes some sense, we just got a loyalist relase (IG) so naturally a mutant traitor marine chapter should be next.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Makes some sense, we just got a loyalist relase (IG) so naturally a mutant traitor marine chapter should be next.

Space Wolves aren't traitors. -_-

This year is rather Imperial with Guard, Woofs and planetstrike mostly being Imperial stuff.

Wisp wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Makes some sense, we just got a loyalist relase (IG) so naturally a mutant traitor marine chapter should be next.

Space Wolves aren't traitors. -_-

Don't take the bait!

Argh, too late!!!

Wisp wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Makes some sense, we just got a loyalist relase (IG) so naturally a mutant traitor marine chapter should be next.

Space Wolves aren't traitors. -_-

Do they follow the sacred codex?
Do they keep their numbers below 1000 as commanded by the Emperor?
Are their sergants bald and screaming?
Are they free of mutation?

I think we know the answers to all of these.

Traitors and mutants the lots of them!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Do they follow the sacred codex?

Nor do the Black Templars

Do they keep their numbers below 1000 as commanded by the Emperor?

Again the Black Templars don't.

Are their sergants bald and screaming?

I don't remember the Templars having Sergeants, but yes their vets are bald but with Goatees or mustaches , and they dont appear to be screaming rather mild mannered. Strange for a group of religious zealots.

Oh and the Space Wolves do have Screaming Sgt equivalents.

Are they free of mutation?

Yes actually.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Do they follow the sacred codex?
Do they keep their numbers below 1000 as commanded by the Emperor?

Um, both that book and that "command" were made after the Ascension of our Glorious Lord and Master, The Emperor, to his Eternal Place of Rest, The Golden Throne, therefore, they are not of His Glorious Commandants nor teachings. The Space Wolves do best to not follow such heretical ways.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Are their sergants bald and screaming?

They are screaming and they have an option to be mostly bald. None truly know if baldness was an Emperorial Commandant or another of the Codex Astartes's heresies.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Are they free of mutation?

Okay, I guess you got the Space Wolves on this one! Then again, many Chapters have mutations also, we need to purge them ALL!

*sigh* Alas for the Wolfie Russ.

A new pred? .... They're going from an ass kicking tank to an ass sucking tank? That don't sound very space wolves at all...

Unless it's a pred with 14/13/12 BS 4 and a vulcan megabolter... that might be acceptable.

Edit: and some sort of close combat attack and a 40k liter beer keg.

Huh? The SW are noted as mutants with their extra-big canines...

Wait couldn't all Space Marines be considered mutants? The codex states they are no longer human...

JohnHwangDD wrote:Huh? The SW are noted as mutants with their extra-big canines...

What does the size of their wolves have to do with the Space Wolves being mutants or not?

I just wish GW would leak out some useful rumors about this codex, it sounds like it might make a good choice to build a Deathwatch "army" out of.

Canines = teeth, not cuddly puppies. You know, the pointy ones in your mouth.

Rated G wrote:Canines = teeth, not cuddly puppies. You know, the pointy ones in your mouth.

Astounding Sherlock.

I hear there's a rule called "Argh, them tracks!" that makes any vehicle assaulted by a SW model automatically immobilized.

BaronIveagh wrote:*sigh* Alas for the Wolfie Russ.

A new pred? .... They're going from an ass kicking tank to an ass sucking tank? That don't sound very space wolves at all...

Unless it's a pred with 14/13/12 BS 4 and a vulcan megabolter... that might be acceptable.

Edit: and some sort of close combat attack and a 40k liter beer keg.

The reason they'd get rid of the Leman Russ Tank is pretty obvious. They can sell you more crap this way. The variant on the predator, and mark my words on this one, will have to do with an assault cannon or multi-melta... I can put money on it.

temprus wrote:I just wish GW would leak out some useful rumors about this codex, it sounds like it might make a good choice to build a Deathwatch "army" out of.

Well, so far, we've learned (to nobody's great surprise, I assume) that SW are losing their Looted IG Russ in favor of a properly SM Predator.

Next, one presumes that we'll have confirmation that SW will be getting even more 4E and 5E goodies added to their list!

Can you taste the anticipation building?

The variant on the predator, and mark my words on this one, will have to do with an assault cannon or multi-melta... I can put money on it.

My memory is a bit fuzzy, but isn't there a certain red garb SM chapter that has a similar configuration? Hmmm......

Blood Angels with their Baal pred with twin linked asscans and two heavy flamers.

I don't know why you guys worry...

The pattern is getting pretty clear after IG. It's consistent codex creep. The SWs will be "totally broken."

And I'm not complaining. I like codex creep, it keeps mixing up the metagame, and it keeps people interested and buying new armies.

Phryxis wrote:I don't know why you guys worry...

The pattern is getting pretty clear after IG. It's consistent codex creep. The SWs will be "totally broken."

And I'm not complaining. I like codex creep, it keeps mixing up the metagame, and it keeps people interested and buying new armies.

As long as they aren't immune to wounds from Str 10, AP1, I'm happy.

Hows about a 5 point 3++? THey have that now if Im not mistaken.

Ratbarf wrote:Hows about a 5 point 3++? THey have that now if Im not mistaken.

Pack leaders can indeed get 5 point SS's. HQ's really get the shaft at 10 points.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Phryxis wrote:I don't know why you guys worry...

The pattern is getting pretty clear after IG. It's consistent codex creep. The SWs will be "totally broken."

And I'm not complaining. I like codex creep, it keeps mixing up the metagame, and it keeps people interested and buying new armies.

As long as they aren't immune to wounds from Str 10, AP1, I'm happy.

I agree. The power level has fluctuated alot over recent additions (see Chaos champions from 3rd Edition) and Wolves should be better than everyone else. I mean look at them!

The drink alot, they are cranky and dont adhere to the strict Codex guidelines, they are sorta like Australians, they shouldnt be better, but they just are!

Guys...

Please keep the discussion on point, and move any background debates to the appropriate forum.

Thanks!

Perfect timing, I'm making some Asian themed space marines with a penchant for martial arts close combat and using ferocious dragon warriors. Space Wolves should fit well as my counts as rules.

Chewy wrote:

The drink alot, they are cranky and dont adhere to the strict Codex guidelines, they are sorta like Australians, they shouldnt be better, but they just are!

SW aren't anything like Australians, SW are actually cool, Australians not so much. But thats niether here nor there because everyone knows they are viking marines, duh!

I'm hearing word of a new pred. variant on the other sites any got any info?

Pure speculation but I imagine the new Pred will be a multi-melta/Melta-cannon or an Exterminator Autocannon.

Would love a Punisher Cannon variant though.

Fluff wise, I dont see why the SW have to loose their Leman Russ... Its named after their damn founder!

And it would sell more of the new LR models they are launching for IG.

But see, that would make sense....

combatmedic wrote:Fluff wise, I dont see why the SW have to loose their Leman Russ....

Other than the fact that they couldn't fit into it you mean ? It's supposed to be cramped and uncomftable for normal humans, there's no way that armoured marines would be able to fit in there.

A punisher cannon? S5 ap - heavy 20 is bloody useless.

Also, it is awesome.

On a Leman Russ, I agree.

But, costed correctly, I would just have so much fun having one in my SW list

I don't know, the idea of a divergent Preditor seams too much like a BA type deal.

Fluffwise, Space Wolves did develope a divergent Preditor (the one with the TL Lazcannons) though all SM have had access to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:

combatmedic wrote:Fluff wise, I dont see why the SW have to loose their Leman Russ....

Other than the fact that they couldn't fit into it you mean ? It's supposed to be cramped and uncomftable for normal humans, there's no way that armoured marines would be able to fit in there.

Mehh, SW have bondsmen that could do the job...but heah, how about we compromise and instead SW get a Storm Lord...much more roomier and has the added benifit of being able to haul 30 blood frenzied Blood Claws right into CC.

Um, a Stormlord can carry *50* Blood Claws...

John, you're forgetting to reduce space due to pelts, beards, waving of weapons, and the fact that SWs tend to respect each other's personal space due to their voracious gas attacks.

But, 30 Blood Claws is more than an equal to 50 someone elses.

That's why the Stormlord is open-topped, so they don't suffocate themselves from massed beer farts.

And a Stormlord has all of what to do with the Space Wolf Codex? Hmm?

Anyway, what sort of Predator could you add that would add anything to the game that isn't already there. I'm guessing it won't be an Ordnance gun, because it just won't (and it doesn't seem very Space Wolf-y). A missile tank maybe?

Maybe copy one of the new Hellhound variants and have a poison (gas) attack, or a blast melta weapon? I don't see them giving it the Exterminator autocannons, but that's a possibility. Maybe a cannon that's like Str 6 AP 3? Maybe a Plasma cannon turret? Maybe a turret that launches throwing axes? Empty casks of ale (because launching a full cask of ale at the enemy is a waste of ale)?

My guess is that whatever the new variant, the immediate reaction from SW players will be, "This is the most awesome tank! evah!" and the non-SW players will say it's soooo cheesy and they can't believe that GW would give a bunch of drunk barbarians something that good.

Maybe the fabled assault Rhino with a forward hatch?

Maybe a Landraider with a Demolisher cannon? Guda!

JohnHwangDD wrote:Um, a Stormlord can carry *50* Blood Claws...

I am sorry to report that the stormlord can carry *40* figures it doesn't state infantry models so it could carry 4 dreads in apoc two on top two inside.
I would carry 40 figs of lascannon carrying long fangs.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And a Stormlord has all of what to do with the Space Wolf Codex? Hmm?

Sarcastic comment in regards to the whole cramped environment of a LR.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Anyway, what sort of Predator could you add that would add anything to the game that isn't already there. I'm guessing it won't be an Ordnance gun, because it just won't (and it doesn't seem very Space Wolf-y). A missile tank maybe?

Yeah, what can they honstly add...a TL typhoon missle system? A TL Autocannon? A Plasma Cannon? a TL Multi-Melta? Are any of these options appealing?

sonofruss wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Um, a Stormlord can carry *50* Blood Claws...

I am sorry to report that the stormlord can carry *40* figures

D'oh. I was thinking of the Gorgon. Oops.

Still, it's more than 30.

If it must be a pred. ....Plasma - predator.

So codex done by Phil K?
Comes when exactly?

Just interested what we get ( august GD ).

Last I saw on a rumor forum was October for Wolves

sonofruss wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Um, a Stormlord can carry *50* Blood Claws...

I am sorry to report that the stormlord can carry *40* figures it doesn't state infantry models so it could carry 4 dreads in apoc two on top two inside.
I would carry 40 figs of lascannon carrying long fangs.

but only 20 models can shoot out of the top!!!

I know what i would do, 20 wolf guard battle leaders with assault cannons. fills all 40 slots and all of them can shoot. 80 shots BS 5, S6 rending? yes please.

EDIT* or 20 wolf guard battle leaders with cyclone missile launchers. 40 krak missiles at BS 5? yes please.

Oh, thought I'd posted it here but seemingly not.


I have heard talk of their being a (presumably) special character who rides a giant ( like Rhino APC sized) Fenris wolf. A metal model I believe.

reds8n wrote: I have heard talk of their being a (presumably) special character who rides a giant ( like Rhino APC sized) Fenris wolf. A metal model I believe.

Can he ride in a Stormlord?

I wouldn't be shocked if they released something like that.

HE CAN IN APOCALYPSE !
or something.

reds8n wrote:HE CAN IN APOCALYPSE !
or something.

A reference to FF Unlimmited ...or so I heard.

But seriously GW should sell dognoughts: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/217606.page

Maybe the fabled assault Rhino with a forward hatch?

Now this would bring back the days of the Rhino rush except that it wouldn't be bloodsucking marines it would be beer sucking marines.

I still think they might give them a "Can Consolidate Into Combat" special rule.

Maybe not for everyone, but maybe Blood Claws?

Call it "Impetuous" or, I don't know, "Smart"?

Somehow taking a rule away from everyone just to give it back to one army as a special rule to make them unique seems.....dumb.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And a Stormlord has all of what to do with the Space Wolf Codex? Hmm?

Why it has STORMS in it's name, referring back to the stormy home world Fenris!

Railguns wrote:Somehow taking a rule away from everyone just to give it back to one army as a special rule to make them unique seems.....dumb.

We are talking about GW here, right?

They'll probably just give them a non-Codex approach to special and power weapon use, like they've had previously, and some special characters with a 'special rule to make them unique' and call it done.

QUOTE "Simple. Space Wolf players are the creme of the hobby, and they deserve the finest in army builds to match their indisputable character, their panache, and their good looks."END QUOTE
You know it's about time someone acknowledged us not just as the best players but also for our looks

No need to shout HTML commands at your auto-dictation software.

wyomingfox wrote:Last I saw on a rumor forum was October for Wolves

I see.

If so, then i shall demand pics from our UK'ers

OOMBATOO O`MALLY wrote:QUOTE "Simple. Space Wolf players are the creme of the hobby, and they deserve the finest in army builds to match their indisputable character, their panache, and their good looks."END QUOTE
You know it's about time someone acknowledged us not just as the best players but also for our looks

true xD

Forlorne wrote:

OOMBATOO O`MALLY wrote:QUOTE "Simple. Space Wolf players are the creme of the hobby, and they deserve the finest in army builds to match their indisputable character, their panache, and their good looks."END QUOTE
You know it's about time someone acknowledged us not just as the best players but also for our looks

true xD

i agree. back when i used i started playing in 3rd edition, the SW players were definitely the cream of the hobby... and we all know what creme is used to make! cream cheese!!

warboss wrote:

Forlorne wrote:

OOMBATOO O`MALLY wrote:QUOTE "Simple. Space Wolf players are the creme of the hobby, and they deserve the finest in army builds to match their indisputable character, their panache, and their good looks."END QUOTE
You know it's about time someone acknowledged us not just as the best players but also for our looks

true xD

i agree. back when i used i started playing in 3rd edition, the SW players were definitely the cream of the hobby... and we all know what creme is used to make! cream cheese!!

MMMMMMM cream Thanks Warboss now I'm hungry If the Wolves did get the assault rino will they be the only chapter that can do the good old rino rush?

warboss wrote:

Forlorne wrote:

OOMBATOO O`MALLY wrote:QUOTE "Simple. Space Wolf players are the creme of the hobby, and they deserve the finest in army builds to match their indisputable character, their panache, and their good looks."END QUOTE
You know it's about time someone acknowledged us not just as the best players but also for our looks

true xD

i agree. back when i used i started playing in 3rd edition, the SW players were definitely the cream of the hobby...

You know, the sheer amount of self-congratulations involved with being a Space Wolf player is probably the biggest reason I've never fielded my grey marines as Viking marines.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
You know, the sheer amount of self-congratulations involved with being a Space Wolf player is probably the biggest reason I've never fielded my grey marines as Viking marines.

Well keep working at it, you might be get there one day.

BING

Just to have a useful imput in this thread my local GW manager asked me if i m goin to Games day UK, to which i answers no as i m skint, he said shame could get the space wolves early.... Aparantly they're gettin released in October

From what i have heard from the guys in the Australian Head Office we could be looking at an October 3 codex release date, with the models coming similar to the IG release, some with the codex and some a few or so weeks after.

GW still cares about Australia?

I wish.

wyomingfox wrote:I don't know, the idea of a divergent Preditor seams too much like a BA type deal.

Fluffwise, Space Wolves did develope a divergent Preditor (the one with the TL Lazcannons) though all SM have had access to that.

Somewhat off-topic:
Once upon a time, the Black Templars were the only army able to field the Crusader en masse. Since it too got sucked into the annals of Vanilla Spase Mehrien-dom, I'm wondering how they'll compensate the Templars in the slightly unnecessary rewrite of their codex.

Perhaps this is a trend we can expect -- perhaps they'll actually make the Black, Grey, Green and Red Marines different enough to actually deserve completely separate codices. And I'm saying that as an avid Templars player.

CK

We demand equality! Colour of armour should not be associated with preferred treatment.

Hold on, what is this? Oi! No Black Templars and Dark Angels in the front of the bus, go on! Off to the back with you!

I hope some actual Space Wolf rumors show up soon...



When is Gamesday UK again?

GD UK is 27 September. GD Chicago is 25 July (or sometime thereabouts). With two months to go, I am hoping we have pictures and rumors by no later than GD Chicago. We'll see.

Will The Sons of Russ still have the mod attack on the Thousand and the D.A. or has that gone the way of the Dodo?

Chances say it most likely will be gone. Thousand sons don't have the rule 'specifically' under their rules entry in the chaos codex so I'd assume that after the next DA release, which will be after the SW release, we'll see that rule deleted from the history of space vikings.

Itll be SPace Marine Codex Volume 2 now with furries and have all flavor erased. Mark my words.