Ok, maybe "worst" is a bad word - maybe "goes against the army" or "most overpriced" or "Models never used" would fill in here.

My nomination is for Necron Pariah's.

Decent newer sculpt and idea for the army, but:

no (I) save, not a Necron (no WBB or count toward phase out or Monolith transport), Basically having the same ability as a Termi with worse save and no deep strike for 5 less points?

It's the only unit besides HQ choices that have a "power weapon" (Spiders are MC) and doesn't help with the army value for phase out.

I get the high point cost for the scythe ability, but you'll never get them into HtH. Did I miss anything?

Chaos Spawn - slow and purposeful, no armor save, and no assault grenades. The counter example to the belief that Games Workshop releases improved rules to promote new models.

Nice one. Forgot about them. I've heard Possessed also have rules to make them ineffective?

Inquisitors. Super weak, but cost 15+ bucks per model due to being metal. They can weigh you down literally hundreds of points in options, with familiars and psypowers and stuff, but they get gakked every time.

Kind of like being in Alaska looking for a game?


Nice wip pics in your gallery, btw.

Yes.... EXACTLY like finding a game in Alaska. 40k in the AK is not easy.

For Eldar: Guardians. Hooray, we're like guardsmen with less firepower for twice the points!

Inquisitors are not that bad. Codex: Witch Hunters has the Sisters Repentia. Over priced, under-powered close combat unit with terrible rules that, even if by some miracle it actually gets to combat, the entire unit will die before they can swing. Possibly the worst unit in the game. In Codex: Daemonhunters, the Daemonhost is far worse than the Inquisitor (who is a pretty decent investment), with its random rules making it far too unreliable to bother with the enormous price investment.

Possessed are bad, but not on the same order as spawn.

Uriels_Flame wrote:Nice one. Forgot about them. I've heard Possessed also have rules to make them ineffective?

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:Possessed are bad, but not on the same order as spawn.

Exactly. Possessed are actually pretty decent at their job: winning close combats, they just aren't the most efficient choice in the codex. Spawn are just horribly bad.

Terminators in space marine is pretty expensive IMO, 40 pts per dude equals to an attack bike that contains 2 dudes and more weaponry (bolt pistols and a heavy bolter / multi melta) that can go around the map with turbo boost

Termies have only 1 wounds with 2+ save while the atk bikes have 2 wound with a 3+

Against a horde (ork for example) touting 20-30+ shots at 'em, the termies will eventually roll a 1 (after all, it is a 1 in a 6 chance).
Got hit and they're dead. Even though an attack bike gets hit, they still have another wound. The termies ate up an elite slot too. With that kind of point, I'd rather have 2 squad of sternguards

marvelnube wrote:Terminators in space marine is pretty expensive IMO, 40 pts per dude equals to an attack bike that contains 2 dudes and more weaponry (bolt pistols and a heavy bolter / multi melta) that can go around the map with turbo boost

Termies have only 1 wounds with 2+ save while the atk bikes have 2 wound with a 3+

Against a horde (ork for example) touting 20-30+ shots at 'em, the termies will eventually roll a 1 (after all, it is a 1 in a 6 chance).
Got hit and they're dead. Even though an attack bike gets hit, they still have another wound. The termies ate up an elite slot too. With that kind of point, I'd rather have 2 squad of sternguards

But even standard terminators wreck things in CC that attack bikes would simply have no chance against. Also, anything that's str 8 and AP3 or better will kill the attack bike, whereas a terminator gets a 5+ invulnerable against it. Regular terminators might not be as highly valued as Assault Terminators any more (although I like 'em myself) they're definitely not among the worst units in the SM codex (hello Vanguard!).

Eldar: Not the guardians at all. Yes, they are overpriced but hey, they're able to fire a heavy weapon on the move or get two flamers/meltas and a seer with its power. Price for weakest eldar unit imo goes to hawks. Low strength weaponry, no hth capability and absolutely ridiculous pointcosts. Just for that template every turn? nah...

Lootas, they suck BS2 with d3 shots whatever.

Flash gitz are much better especially upgrade all the way since they have two wounds, work better with boyz because of they're close range weapons and have a reliable number of shots that can upgraded.

willydstyle wrote:For Eldar: Guardians. Hooray, we're like guardsmen with less firepower for twice the points!

Guardians are useful when they have a scatter laser, its funny to shake and stun tanks with a 10man squad that can move and shoot every turn, they are not the best, but i fail to see them as the worst, in my mind the worst unit so far is the Vindicator, 13 front 11 sides and 10 rear, its a one hit wonder, that if its not hugging cover all the time it gets popped like a..well i will leave your mind to make up the rest

avantgarde wrote:Lootas, they suck BS2 with d3 shots whatever.

Flash gitz are much better especially upgrade all the way since they have two wounds, work better with boyz because of they're close range weapons and have a reliable number of shots that can upgraded. /sarcasm

Fixed it for you (emphisis mine).

My short list.

1) Vespids
2) Pariah's
3) Tankbustas (bad rules, although they can be avoided)

Garuss Acine wrote:

willydstyle wrote:For Eldar: Guardians. Hooray, we're like guardsmen with less firepower for twice the points!

Guardians are useful when they have a scatter laser, its funny to shake and stun tanks with a 10man squad that can move and shoot every turn, they are not the best, but i fail to see them as the worst, in my mind the worst unit so far is the Vindicator, 13 front 11 sides and 10 rear, its a one hit wonder, that if its not hugging cover all the time it gets popped like a..well i will leave your mind to make up the rest

But honestly... a wave serpent with a scatter laser is only a little more than a guardian unit with a scatter laser, can carry a useful unit, has more accurate weaponry, is more durable, is more mobile, etc. etc.

If you're looking for a place in the army to have a scatter laser, a guardian squad isn't it.

And why are you comparing a codex Eldar squad with a codex Space Marines/CSM tank?

But even standard terminators wreck things in CC that attack bikes would simply have no chance against. Also, anything that's str 8 and AP3 or better will kill the attack bike, whereas a terminator gets a 5+ invulnerable against it. Regular terminators might not be as highly valued as Assault Terminators any more (although I like 'em myself) they're definitely not among the worst units in the SM codex (hello Vanguard!).

Lol, oh yeah the vanguards too They didn't came to mind immediately since they still cost less than a normal Termie squad (even with the jump pack option)

The assault termies can opt to equip thunder hammer + storm shield for free, that's why IMO they're worth their cost compared to the normal ones

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Inquisitors. Super weak, but cost 15+ bucks per model due to being metal. They can weigh you down literally hundreds of points in options, with familiars and psypowers and stuff, but they get gakked every time.

Inquisitors are actually one of the best options in the entire Daemonhunters codex for a variety of reasons, though mostly they are taken as allies. And you're going to see them in every single competitive IG list after the new codex is officially released. They'll likely be all over the 'Ard Boyz tournament again this year as well.

For 32 points you can take an Inquisitor with 2 Mystics and suddenly you have some brutal deep strike defense. For 41 points more you can buff him to Ld 10 with henchmen and take a Psychic Hood with the old rules that give it infinite range. You can even throw a Gun Servitor in there with a plasma in there to ruin units dropping near your army.

Anyways, as for bad units:

Space Marines - Thunderfire Cannon
Eldar - Vibro Cannons, Shadow Weavers
Tyrannids - Biovores (not through any fault of the codex, but rather 5th edition)
Daemonhunters - Orbital Strike

I'd have to say the TFC isn't that bad. If you don't get it smoked early, you can rack up wounds. I pulled 16 wounds, which killed his fist sarge and melta, leaving a missile launcher and some bolters left.

There's a lot of stuff in the tau codex showing their age, but if I had to make a top-3 list:

3. Krootox
2. Vespids
1. Aun-'205-freaking-points'-Va. what a flat out baaad unit, seriously.

Some Dark Eldar choices:

Scourges: 25 points for T3, 5+ save jump troops with the option to take a heavy weapon for 20 more points.

Hellions: T3, S3, 5+ save assault troops, with one attack each for 16 points. For another 16 points, you can upgrade one of them to take a power weapon for another 10-20 points. (So, 42-52 points for a single model in the unit to have 2-3 power weapon attacks.)

Mandrakes: T3, S3, 5+ save, no faster move than any other unit type, no special attacks or weapon modes, but cost more than Wyches and compete for the same slot.

Commander Shadowsun- Overcosted xv8 with dual fusion?!?!

Space Pope - See Ethereal

Kroot Shapers - woo I can overpay for 6+ armor saves on kroot!?!?!

Ethereals - un armored t3 model that forces a moral check on my whole army when it dies

Vespids - 5+ armor save 12" range 22 points a model useless

Sky Ray's - not terrible in their own right but when compared to other heavy support options it is just unuseable

Krootox- lose infiltrate to get an auto cannon that has to stand still to fire

Gun drone squadrons - might as well read free killpoints

I think Tau currently win the crap units debate

avantgarde wrote:Lootas, they suck BS2 with d3 shots whatever.

Flash gitz are much better especially upgrade all the way since they have two wounds, work better with boyz because of they're close range weapons and have a reliable number of shots that can upgraded.

Then you have never played against two units of 15 Lootas. Range 48" covers a large swath of the table, Str 7 can kill nearly everything in the game, and AP4 will kill most non-MEQs. It doesn't matter if they have BS2. The sheer volume of shots they put out makes up for it. Even with 15 shots (which you'll only get 1/3 of the time) the lootas will average 5 hits. That's fairly reliable against armor 12 or less. And 45 shots will wreck most units. Firewarriors, Eldar, Guard, they loose units at a time to that. Small elite units like terminators or crisis suits? They die through the sheer number of wounds that get put on them. One unit of lootas put 3 wounds on a one of my hive tyrants in a single phase. That's a T6 2+ unit. Not to mention, the lootas are T4 models and get placed in cover, if the ork player has any sense.

Flash Gitz get expensive FAST, if you give them multiple upgrades. And why would they be better because of close range? That just means they're closer to being counter attacked.

Krootox: 48" Rapid fire T3 models that make the kroot lose what they are best at!

Chaos Spawn: Total suckage

Aftersong wrote:Commander Shadowsun- Overcosted xv8 with dual fusion?!?!

Space Pope - See Ethereal

Kroot Shapers - woo I can overpay for 6+ armor saves on kroot!?!?!

Ethereals - un armored t3 model that forces a moral check on my whole army when it dies

Vespids - 5+ armor save 12" range 22 points a model useless

Sky Ray's - not terrible in their own right but when compared to other heavy support options it is just unuseable

Krootox- lose infiltrate to get an auto cannon that has to stand still to fire

Gun drone squadrons - might as well read free killpoints

I think Tau currently win the crap units debate

Skyrays are ok in mech lists if you want to avoid exposing vulnerable pathfinders out there. Also, vespids are 16 points.

From Eldar

Swooping Hawks: While initially a unit with limited but potent ability, the new damage chart makes a squad that does tons of glancing hits in HtH less good. Add in the lessened ability to hide them and their high cost and you get a unit that is now used solely for gimmicky Yo-yo grenade tactics.

From Space Marines

Venerable Dreadnought: They pay 60pts for +1 WS and BS and the damage re-roll. Not a bad unit, per se, just horribly overcosted when compared to basic dreads and ironclads. Particularly tragic when the abilities to make Venerables better are so readily available (tank hunters, extra attacks, assault and defensive grenades, extra armor gratis, or even "ignores shaken and stunned."). All told, a unit that is simply too bad to be used as anything other than an emotional pick.

Vanguard Vets: wildly under powered and fragile for their cost. Heroic Intervention is neat, but they pay out the nose for assault weapons and are still only T4, 3+ save models. Give them a 5++, a discount on all assault weapons, and a re-roll to scatter (like stormtroopers) and they'd be viable.

From Old IG

Ogryn: Pricey, very fragile against S8, easy to run down, don't do enough damage.

Techpriests: What exactly do these bring to the table?

Priests: that's' a lot of points for a model that doesn't really add much. Halve it's cost, and it's a fun option.

New IG

Ogryn: While now actually good in combat, their cost precludes taking them. They still don't kill much, but they can take a charge better than nearly any unit in the game. Still not worth 40pts a piece.

Priests: Another repeat violator. Got cheaper, but also worse.

Stormtroopers: while I think five man double melta squads will be seen as tank hunters, the squad as a whole is very pricey and not really good at it's intended purpose.

From Demons:

Chaos Furies: Inferior in nearly every way to Fleshhounds.

the ogryn in the new codex. no1 will take them for 40 pts a peaice even though they have cool stats

Any unit, any army, armed with a sniper rifle. Eldar snipers excluded.

Eldar: Vypers...awesome in 4th, but in 5th they are pretty much a waste for their points.

SM: Vangaurd or LOTD...enough said

Orks: Tough call...for the price, Gits are the worst, but for playability it is hard to beat Tankbustas at being bad.

DA: Everything but the DW and RW..and RW are only good at backing up the DW

Necrons: Pariahs...just plain overcosted, and not being Crons hurts them

IG: Definately the new Ogryns..therei are just so many other better choices to use their Elite slot for.

Chaos: Dreads

Vengis wrote:

avantgarde wrote:Lootas, they suck BS2 with d3 shots whatever.

Flash gitz are much better especially upgrade all the way since they have two wounds, work better with boyz because of they're close range weapons and have a reliable number of shots that can upgraded.

Then you have never played against two units of 15 Lootas. Range 48" covers a large swath of the table, Str 7 can kill nearly everything in the game, and AP4 will kill most non-MEQs. It doesn't matter if they have BS2. The sheer volume of shots they put out makes up for it. Even with 15 shots (which you'll only get 1/3 of the time) the lootas will average 5 hits. That's fairly reliable against armor 12 or less. And 45 shots will wreck most units. Firewarriors, Eldar, Guard, they loose units at a time to that. Small elite units like terminators or crisis suits? They die through the sheer number of wounds that get put on them. One unit of lootas put 3 wounds on a one of my hive tyrants in a single phase. That's a T6 2+ unit. Not to mention, the lootas are T4 models and get placed in cover, if the ork player has any sense.

Flash Gitz get expensive FAST, if you give them multiple upgrades. And why would they be better because of close range? That just means they're closer to being counter attacked.

Math isn't everything there's a lot of things that affect the game other than straight up statistics, like tactics. Snazzguns have d6 AP, -1 if you pay for blastas which is worth it if you get the 5++ and FNP, which can punch through Terminator armour half the time, power armor 2/3s of the time and 4+ 5/6s of the time. They get even better with Badrukk to bolster their fire.

If your shooty unit was to get charged, would it be better for them to be assaulted in the front near your boyz who can counter charge in or near the back without as much support? With the 2 wounds they could take more of a beating from shooting and assault. Not to mention they can take Cybork bodies and Painboyz to make them even tougher.

I know 500 pts of Flash Gitz could easily outshoot 500 pts of Lootas.

Daemonhunters: Orbital Bombardment

Eldar: Swooping Hawks

Tyranids: Biovores

Necrons: Pariahs

Tau: Tau

Guard: Ogryn

Witchhunters: Repentia

avantgarde wrote:
Math isn't everything there's a lot of things that affect the game other than straight up statistics, like tactics. Snazzguns have d6 AP, -1 if you pay for blastas which is worth it if you get the 5++ and FNP, which can punch through Terminator armour half the time, power armor 2/3s of the time and 4+ 5/6s of the time. They get even better with Badrukk to bolster their fire.

If your shooty unit was to get charged, would it be better for them to be assaulted in the front near your boyz who can counter charge in or near the back without as much support? With the 2 wounds they could take more of a beating from shooting and assault. Not to mention they can take Cybork bodies and Painboyz to make them even tougher.

I know 500 pts of Flash Gitz could easily outshoot 500 pts of Lootas.

Are you being serious here, or is this some sort of ironic devil's advocate thing? I'm asking in seriousness, because you're basically saying one of the worst units in the game is superior to one of the best, at least as most people would rank them. I would explain why, but part of me is thinking that you're just messing with us. Let me know.

Yes. "Use tactics". Because all I did was talk about statistics.

I was speaking from experience. I've seen lootas deployed, and I've seen what they do to units. I've lost an 18 man squad of kroot to them in one turn. I've lost tyranid MCs to them.

I don't have the codex on hand, but what strength are snazzguns?

the thunderfire is pretty usefull

S5 un-upgraded, S6 upgraded.

Anecdotal evidence has limited weight in a tactics discussion.

Also I'm just messing with you. I would have thought the ridiculousness of my position, Casper's quoting and italicized tactics would have clued people in. Flash gitz are indeed overpriced chaff that take up useful HS slots better used for Battlewagons or Kans.

After some more time to think here is my worst unit for each army

1) SM - Vanguard Vets
2) CSM - Dreads, Spawn
3) Guard - Ogryns
4) Eldar - Vypers, Swooping Hawks, Vibro Cannon
5) Dark Eldar - what others have said
6) Tau - Krootox, Vespids, anything not in a ninja tau list
7) Orks - Flash Gitz, Tankbustas
8) DA - Non DW or RW, but as Alerian said, RW is only there to help DW hit home
9) Necrons - Pariahs
10) SW, BA, BT - not really sure, anything horribly overpriced compared to the SM dex
11) Deamons - nothing?
12) WH - repentia, penitent engines are bad as well
13) DH - deamonhosts

SM: Whirlwinds
I have two in my army at the moment and to date they've only been useful once. Though admittedly very useful as they took out all but 1 of a squad of Terminators. The rest of the time they miss completely.

WH: Sisters Repentia
Okay, says a guy at GW one day, I have this idea- Close Combat tank hunters! No special saves and a S 3 (6) in the rules that we'll never explain when you get the S6! His boss looks at him funny and says, "How would you entice anyone to buy that for their army?" The genius replies, "We'll put them in bondage gear and give them the biggest vaguely phallic thing you've ever seen in a sister's hands." The rest is history.

Tankbustas. You have to heard them the whole game using trukks to block LoS to make them worth taking.

For eldar I have to split on either hawks or their artillery being the worst. Hawks in 4th had some real uses, but now they are overpriced flashlight users and the exarch is no longer a killer in hth. Plus of course the changes to their elite high tech grenades now being more fizzle than bang.

Eldar guardian squads still have their uses. They are a scoring unit plus they are a good home for either a scatter laser or an eml. Firing a blast weapon their BS 3 doesnt matter much; and if needs be then they can at least TRY and take out armor.

Vypers are certainly not as good as they used to be, but they are a great place to drop a few points when finishing out a list. With an eml they can snipe from long range or if you know you will be facing a horde they are a good place to add a few more str 6 shots.



Sliggoth

avantgarde wrote:S5 un-upgraded, S6 upgraded.

Anecdotal evidence has limited weight in a tactics discussion.

Also I'm just messing with you. I would have thought the ridiculousness of my position, Casper's quoting and italicized tactics would have clued people in. Flash gitz are indeed overpriced chaff that take up useful HS slots better used for Battlewagons or Kans.

Oh, so you mean you're a troll? Got it.

I never played against anyone Tau and using vespids, but I really liked the look of them. Too bad.

Vengis wrote:

avantgarde wrote:S5 un-upgraded, S6 upgraded.

Anecdotal evidence has limited weight in a tactics discussion.

Also I'm just messing with you. I would have thought the ridiculousness of my position, Casper's quoting and italicized tactics would have clued people in. Flash gitz are indeed overpriced chaff that take up useful HS slots better used for Battlewagons or Kans.

Oh, so you mean you're a troll? Got it.

Successful Troll is Successful. I really thought that it was funny, avantgarde.

willydstyle wrote:
Successful Troll is Successful. I really thought that it was funny, avantgarde.

As did I, avantgarde. Shame some people don't enjoy a sence of humor in these threads.

Casper wrote:After some more time to think here is my worst unit for each army

13) DH - deamonhosts

Seriously? The orbital stike is much worse. So what they do something random. If you get bloodboil you drop a ordanance blast that hits everything but you and you can run before you decide to drop it or drop it then run. The fact that you can also by chance warp out of CC or regain all 4 wounds it nice as well.
Oribital Stike=
Player 1: Right my orbital strike is landing....scatter....crap.....misses everything......
Player 2: Moves units away from terrain
Player 1: What a waste of 60 points (min)

While you can do the same thing with the deamon host anything you roll will be usefull in some way or another. IF you get bloodboil and your not near anyone no big deal its like an orbital strike that doesnt hit anyone.

Emrab wrote:
Seriously? The orbital stike is much worse. So what they do something random. If you get bloodboil you drop a ordanance blast that hits everything but you and you can run before you decide to drop it or drop it then run. The fact that you can also by chance warp out of CC or regain all 4 wounds it nice as well.
Oribital Stike=
Player 1: Right my orbital strike is landing....scatter....crap.....misses everything......
Player 2: Moves units away from terrain
Player 1: What a waste of 60 points (min)

There's no doubt that Orbital Strikes were badly nerfed by the change from Ordinance scattering 1d6 to scattering 2d6 minus BS. That said, since 2/3rds of missions involve holding specific places on the board, it strikes me that it should be possible to do something useful with an Orbital Strike.

I would argue that Death Cult Assassins are far, far worse.

Casper wrote:

willydstyle wrote:
Successful Troll is Successful. I really thought that it was funny, avantgarde.

As did I, avantgarde. Shame some people don't enjoy a sence of humor in these threads.

It's a shame some people can't spell.

I wasted my time typing of a thought-out reply. I happen to not like that.

At least I know that anything avantgarde says it worthless.

I thought you both where in on it...

Know knead two bee sew eye rate.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:Also, vespids are 16 points.

oh right it's the strain leader that is 22

Samurai Jack! Got'em all.

Sorry, OT . . .

terminators. too slow
know if they could be put on bikes???

eldar:

falcon, swooping hawks, vipers

Termis too slow? add shrike.

SW: long fangs -stupidly overpriced.
SM: vanguard
Orks: Flash Gitz
Necrons: Pariahs

Daemons: Furies

New Guard: Nork Deddog. In fact, I think he gains the award for most useless ever.

willydstyle wrote:New Guard: Nork Deddog. In fact, I think he gains the award for most useless ever.

Whats so bad about him, I don't have the new dex but it seems odd that a named character in a new dex would be that bad.

Casper wrote:

willydstyle wrote:New Guard: Nork Deddog. In fact, I think he gains the award for most useless ever.

Whats so bad about him, I don't have the new dex but it seems odd that a named character in a new dex would be that bad.

Well... lets say he costs as much as a Daemon Prince, but does not have dp stats, and does not count as a monstrous creature, does not have a power weapon, does not do extra penetration against vehicles, does not have a 3+ armor save, and does not have an invulnerable save. He does have FNP, which is the only thing you really gain from him.

He's got T5, but is an upgrade model for a command squad. Since he's not an independent character, and is in a squad who has majority T3, you're going to be using T3 for any wounds allocated to the squad either by shooting or CC until the squad is wittled down to only him and the officer, so basically all he does is add 3 FNP wounds to the unit.

The same could be achieved by purchasing a medic and two bodyguard advisers for far fewer points.

He's cool, and has cool special rules, but because of the way his rules interact with the actual rules of the game... they rarely actually matter.

IMO just another example of the IG codex writer being a noob, and not understanding the rules of 40k (see also mortars+master of ordnance).

edit: nothing to see here...sucked in by Trollyness! ARGHHH!

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

avantgarde wrote:Lootas, they suck BS2 with d3 shots whatever.

Flash gitz are much better especially upgrade all the way since they have two wounds, work better with boyz because of they're close range weapons and have a reliable number of shots that can upgraded.

So guys with shorter range, same BS and only 1 shot for more than 150% the cost are BETTER?!

Haha, read the thread. He was self-admittedly trolling.

Eldar: Hawks.

SM: LOTD

Orks: Flash Gits

Necrons: Pariahs

DE: Hellions

IG: Ogryns

Chaos: Spawns

Nids: Biovores.

Dave47 wrote:

Emrab wrote:
Seriously? The orbital stike is much worse. So what they do something random. If you get bloodboil you drop a ordanance blast that hits everything but you and you can run before you decide to drop it or drop it then run. The fact that you can also by chance warp out of CC or regain all 4 wounds it nice as well.
Oribital Stike=
Player 1: Right my orbital strike is landing....scatter....crap.....misses everything......
Player 2: Moves units away from terrain
Player 1: What a waste of 60 points (min)

There's no doubt that Orbital Strikes were badly nerfed by the change from Ordinance scattering 1d6 to scattering 2d6 minus BS. That said, since 2/3rds of missions involve holding specific places on the board, it strikes me that it should be possible to do something useful with an Orbital Strike.

I would argue that Death Cult Assassins are far, far worse.

Oh Very true. I forgot about those because of how completely useless they are. In no way shape or form would they every help you unless you are trying to lose the game.

willydstyle wrote:New Guard: Nork Deddog. In fact, I think he gains the award for most useless ever.

More useless than the space pope? 200ish points for a t3 model with no ranged attack (in a shooting based army) that could make your entire army run off the table if he dies sure he makes everyone stubborn but with ld7 who cares?

Aftersong wrote:

willydstyle wrote:New Guard: Nork Deddog. In fact, I think he gains the award for most useless ever.

More useless than the space pope? 200ish points for a t3 model with no ranged attack (in a shooting based army) that could make your entire army run off the table if he dies sure he makes everyone stubborn but with ld7 who cares?

At least the space pope can make the unit he's with fearless, so he has some utility. My last post on Nork got lost at the end of the last page, but I give a pretty detailed breakdown on why he's horribly stupid.

willydstyle wrote:At least the space pope can make the unit he's with fearless, so he has some utility. My last post on Nork got lost at the end of the last page, but I give a pretty detailed breakdown on why he's horribly stupid.

Counterpoint: Nork does not give up a kill point, and when he dies something good happens.

But at this point, I think we really need to come up with a better definition of "useless." If the question is "what unit is the worst in competitive tournament play?" then I would say the answer is clearly the Space Pope. A competitive tournament list will find a way to kill him and break your army, and having Tau be stubborn isn't always a good thing. ("Oh boy, I didn't break! Now my fire lanes are clogged, and your Terminators are safe!") Nork is a gigantic point sink in a competitive list, but he's not going to actively screw over your army.

But if the question is "What unit is useless in every scenario against every army?" then I would go with the Death Cult Assassins. Even if you know the mission and your opponent ahead of time, I still can't come up with a scenario where I would think to myself. "Ahh, better take the Death Cultists for this game!"

Dave47 wrote:

willydstyle wrote:At least the space pope can make the unit he's with fearless, so he has some utility. My last post on Nork got lost at the end of the last page, but I give a pretty detailed breakdown on why he's horribly stupid.

Counterpoint: Nork does not give up a kill point, and when he dies something good happens.

But at this point, I think we really need to come up with a better definition of "useless." If the question is "what unit is the worst in competitive tournament play?" then I would say the answer is clearly the Space Pope. A competitive tournament list will find a way to kill him and break your army, and having Tau be stubborn isn't always a good thing. ("Oh boy, I didn't break! Now my fire lanes are clogged, and your Terminators are safe!") Nork is a gigantic point sink in a competitive list, but he's not going to actively screw over your army.

But if the question is "What unit is useless in every scenario against every army?" then I would go with the Death Cult Assassins. Even if you know the mission and your opponent ahead of time, I still can't come up with a scenario where I would think to myself. "Ahh, better take the Death Cultists for this game!"

Ok, but here's another thing against Nork: if his officer is executed by a commissar, Nork kills the commissar, but only after the commissar kills the officer.

Something I'm surprised I haven't seen in here for Eldar: Wraithguard.

#1- 15$ Per model.
#2- Their totally awesome gun...only shoots 12 inches.
#3- S5 T6 yes...but as far as CC, that is they only edge they have. No power weapons, no extra attacks.
#4- 35 points per model for this, plus the extra 25 points that you will need for a warlock to prevent wraith sight.

As far as worst model, it would have to be a tie between Wraithguard and Swooping Hawks in my opinion.

I agree with Axyl. but he forgot that they're not fleet too. plasma cannons rip them up. and they're big, but only one wound on each of them, and they're horrible at finding cover.

Uhm...last I checked, Wraithguard were excellent. 10 of them with a warlock with Conceal or Enhance and in cover and a farseer (that should be in your army anyway) casting fortune on them makes a very tough nut to crack. And they are scoring. Their uber guns make a nice 12" no fly zone around them as well. Couple that with some other smart choices in list design, and the wraithguard form a very durable "anvil".

I think that this thread really only demonstrates that some people don't really understand how "useless" or "good" some units are.

LOTD are hardly "useless" either btw. They compete with Sternguard, who are better, but their deepstrike ability and 3+ invulnerable save can make them interesting if you aren't using Kantor or don't need another drop pod. They aren't the best choice, but are ooodles better than Vanguard.

As long as you build your list around using them, Wraithguard are the BEST troop choice in the Eldar dex. As Whitedragon mentioned, you do have to take your Warlock/Spiriteesr with Conceal, give them a Fortuneseer (preferably Eldrad if the Avvy is there too), and then run Wraithlords behind them...you now have the quintesential Elf-zilla list...and it works well.

Mutants in the latd list.

@ Whitedragon and Alerian:

Some good points in there actually. In fact I may play test the W-Guard in some upcoming games to see how it works out. One major counter-point though. Even if these units where the take-all awesome squad for any list, to run a full squad with a warlock would cost you up to about 160 dollars. Lets say you can even get the full squad at 15% off, after taxes its still pretty close to 140$.

If these guys had a plastic kit, or were a bit more reasonably priced, I would certainly move it from the 'worst' group to the 'worth playing' group.

namegoeshere wrote:Mutants in the latd list.

Surely you meant big mutants. The basic mutant was, for it's time, a very nice choice with the ability to gain a hidden 4 swing powerfist that could reroll one miss per turn. Big Mutants were ogryn.

I find Vespids and Ethereals to be kinda pointless. Ethereals soak up a slot that could could ahve another Shas'O in (the Tau's best unit imo), and the vespids take up a fast attack slot and suck majorly compared to pirhanas or pathfinders.

And then there's the Heros.

Farsight is kinda ok, but you ahve to build a completely different type of army list to work with him (no kroot )

But Aun'Va and Shadowsun just arent very good.

and then theres the whole " no more wargear" thing with all three of them. that alone makes me never want to take any of them. Tau vehicles are lunchmeat without wargear. (disruption pod wtf)

Axyl wrote:@ Whitedragon and Alerian:

Some good points in there actually. In fact I may play test the W-Guard in some upcoming games to see how it works out. One major counter-point though. Even if these units where the take-all awesome squad for any list, to run a full squad with a warlock would cost you up to about 160 dollars. Lets say you can even get the full squad at 15% off, after taxes its still pretty close to 140$.

If these guys had a plastic kit, or were a bit more reasonably priced, I would certainly move it from the 'worst' group to the 'worth playing' group.

Cost doesn't factor in to "usefulness". Bloodcrushers are much more expensive than Wraithguard. Check E-bay or Bartertown, or look for clearance sales at FLGS's.

Correct, of course cost doesn't apply to actual usefulness. Just went by the OP's criteria in naming a 'worst' unit.

"goes against the army" or "most overpriced" or "Models never used" would fill in here.

Anyway, thats my last counter point. I'm done.

For my armies I have those units I never use...EVER.

DA: Scouts. Yea sure their BS is higher than the 5th ed ones, but they take up an elite spot. A spot thats for Termies or dreadnoughts, not the recruits of the chapter. Also my sniper rifles never seem to kill ANYTHING.

Orks: Tankbusters may have a wicked cool weapon with the tank hammer, their rules have made it hard for me to see their value. "ZOMG LOOK A NECRON TANK!" *rush in and dies*

Imp Guard: Back in the day the ogryns used to be a decent anti-assault unit. With the new codex however, their usefulness seems less rewarding.

I'd have to vote for Tyranids Gargoyles and Chaos Deadnaughts. Gargoyles pay the price for wings but their armor gets ignored by bolters. Chaos Dreads because of their unreliability and I hate their stupid melee arm. I want a normal-looking DCCW.

Chaos Spawn I use all the time...



Ahriman turns people into them *tee hee*

avantgarde wrote:Lootas, they suck BS2 with d3 shots whatever.

Flash gitz are much better especially upgrade all the way since they have two wounds, work better with boyz because of they're close range weapons and have a reliable number of shots that can upgraded.

That's like the opposite of what is true.
Flash gitz are decent but WAAAAY overpriced. Lootas are one of the best choices in the army.

For worst Tau unit I'd have to say the Vespid.

Vengis wrote:

Casper wrote:

willydstyle wrote:
Successful Troll is Successful. I really thought that it was funny, avantgarde.

As did I, avantgarde. Shame some people don't enjoy a sence of humor in these threads.

It's a shame some people can't spell.

I wasted my time typing of a thought-out reply. I happen to not like that.

At least I know that anything avantgarde says it worthless.

^^Butt-hurt

My vote must go to to Ethereal. Having a T3 nil armor IC in your army who makes your entire army run away is a bad thing.

Gandair wrote:
Chaos Spawn I use all the time...
Ahriman turns people into them *tee hee*

Of course, the big problem is having enough Spawn models to handle his prodigious Gift of Chaos.

Spawn are certainly top dogs of Chaos' worst, but you should only be using them with Gift.
Swooping Hawks are teri-bad for their points. They have one trick, and can't do anything else (Hay-wire nades used to be nice, they need an update)
Furies are lame
Vanguard are lame
Sister's of Battle Landraider is lame (no assault ramp, overcosted)
Deathcults are lame

Oh, you know what I hate? Sniper weapons. Snipers are elite, one shot one kill weapons, but most units that use them have 4+ hit, they will only wound 4+ (why would they hurt less than bolters against GEQs?) and only rending simulates a headshot. They will put on ~.04 of a wound per shot, and they have 5 shots a game. Huzzah, a 5 man scout team will put out 1 wound if they are firing through the entire game!

Also why the Tank Buster hate? You take them to bust tanks, so you don't need them shooting at other stuff. They won't shoot at the nearest thing (common misconception), they just have to shoot at a tank if they can see it.

For daemons beast of nurgle cost as much as 2 plague bearers and are worse.

As for chaos spawn we have to pay for a chance to make them.

1- SM vanguard
2- tank bustas unless it's new IG armored company will rise again?
3- SM sniper scouts except tellion hes a one man army for 50 pts
4- the only point to inq. for sisters or DH is for the assasins
5- the psycer assassin since thousand suns are only psychers are sargents for doom bolt thingy and eldar for doom on you
6- SM calgar Chapter Master still a over priced uselessness except vulkan from salamanders absolutely awesome

A: Vulkan isn't a Chapter Master.

B: Do you mean all the Space Marine SCs? i'm guessing not.

The only thing wrong with Telion is you have to take a Scout squad with him.

Chronus comes to mind as bad. BS 5 is useless when he's on foot as he has a boltgun, and the small improvements to hit with a tank are sort of meh for 70pts. Ignoring shaken and stunned is nice though.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
1. Aun-'205-freaking-points'-Va. what a flat out baaad unit, seriously.

No. read your codex over and over again until you like him. Yeah he's slightly overpriced (seriously, only slightly) but you'll thank yourself.

As far as the IG go: SLY "useless catachan that used to be worth his points" MARBO

The Revelator wrote:

avantgarde wrote:Lootas, they suck BS2 with d3 shots whatever.

Flash gitz are much better especially upgrade all the way since they have two wounds, work better with boyz because of they're close range weapons and have a reliable number of shots that can upgraded.

That's like the opposite of what is true.
Flash gitz are decent but WAAAAY overpriced. Lootas are one of the best choices in the army.

For worst Tau unit I'd have to say the Vespid.

...I dont entirely disagree with either statement. wow. I really am having a hard time with the realization that lootas are unreliable crap and gits are a better place for my points. huh. I run both units though, and my orks outshoot my IG.

willydstyle wrote:For Eldar: Guardians. Hooray, we're like guardsmen with less firepower for twice the points!

Actually, Guardians can have heavy weapons, which gives them the extra punch they need. They also have more firepower than guardsmen.
Also, with a Warlock w/ conceal, guardians will be a near unmoveable GUARD to your "close to home" objectives. Guardians are always worth their points for me.

+1 for Space Wolves and Long fangs, with Blood Claw Jump Packers a close second.

-Bleh Double Poast-

Exarch_Nektel wrote:

willydstyle wrote:For Eldar: Guardians. Hooray, we're like guardsmen with less firepower for twice the points!

Actually, Guardians can have heavy weapons, which gives them the extra punch they need. They also have more firepower than guardsmen.
Also, with a Warlock w/ conceal, guardians will be a near unmoveable GUARD to your "close to home" objectives. Guardians are always worth their points for me.

Guardians can have one heavy weapon.

10 guardians with a shuriken cannon (cheapest option, but not the best one) and a conceal warlock comes out to 125 points (or something near there, can't be bothered to get the codex at the moment).

For 125 points you can get:

Two units of IG with an autocannon and grenade launcher in each unit comes out to 120 points.

The guardians have 11 T3 bodies.

The guardsmen have 16 T3 bodies and 2 T3 2 wound models (20 wounds total)

The guardians have 3 str 6 shots at 24" (about 1/3 of an MEQ kill).

At 12" the guardians have 18 BS3 str 4 shots, one BS4 str 4 shot, and 3 str 6 shots. This averages 2.0 MEQ kills.

The guardsmen have 4 str 7 shots at 48" (about 1/2 an MEQ kill) (the guardians don't have this range at all)

4 str 7 2 str 6, 12 str 3 shots at 24"=about 1.5 MEQ kills (compared to 1/3 MEQ kill at the same range for guardians)

And at 12" the guardsmen have 4 str 7, 2 str 6, 26 str 3 shots= 2.3 MEQ kills.

So, while they're about the same at 12" or less(but with an advantage to the Guardsmen), the guardsmen completely outgun the Guardians at ranges beyond 12", And although the Guardian's weapon platform gives them an ability to move and shoot the shuriken cannon, it still does not match the range of the autocannon, not to mention that the grenade launchers are also move and fire, and can fire small blast markers to take advantage of clumped up enemies.

Guardians suck.

Grenade Launchers are not heavy weapons...

Gwar! wrote:Grenade Launchers are not heavy weapons...

I wasn't saying they were.

He said "Guardians can have heavy weapons, which give them the punch they need."

I replied that Guardians can have one heavy weapon, then went on to show how that one heavy weapon does not give them adequate "punch" for their points.

willydstyle wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Grenade Launchers are not heavy weapons...

I wasn't saying they were.

He said "Guardians can have heavy weapons, which give them the punch they need."

I replied that Guardians can have one heavy weapon, then went on to show how that one heavy weapon does not give them adequate "punch" for their points.

Well, you did demonstrate that the worst possible Guardian build is worse than arguably the most efficient IG build, but that's now how the game is played. To be the worst unit, a unit has to have the least effectiveness when built and used optimally. 10 Guardians, no warlock, and a scatter laser next to an Avatar. That's 95pts, it can move and shoot, it scores, it's fearless, and by arcing behind the Avatar gains a 4+ cover save while being able to magically move the scatter laser between either gunner. Is that a great unit? No. Is it better than Swooping hawks? Yes it is.

At 100pts you can give them a Missile Launcher, and just have them sit back and shoot all day. Again, not a great unit, but better than Hawks. For 140pts you get a bright lance and embolden, making them a good choice against land raiders.

As units that are at least reasonably decent, if over priced, for their combat role, Guardians are bad but certainly not the worst unit in the book.

Polonius wrote:

willydstyle wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Grenade Launchers are not heavy weapons...

I wasn't saying they were.

He said "Guardians can have heavy weapons, which give them the punch they need."

I replied that Guardians can have one heavy weapon, then went on to show how that one heavy weapon does not give them adequate "punch" for their points.

Well, you did demonstrate that the worst possible Guardian build is worse than arguably the most efficient IG build, but that's now how the game is played. To be the worst unit, a unit has to have the least effectiveness when built and used optimally. 10 Guardians, no warlock, and a scatter laser next to an Avatar. That's 95pts, it can move and shoot, it scores, it's fearless, and by arcing behind the Avatar gains a 4+ cover save while being able to magically move the scatter laser between either gunner. Is that a great unit? No. Is it better than Swooping hawks? Yes it is.

At 100pts you can give them a Missile Launcher, and just have them sit back and shoot all day. Again, not a great unit, but better than Hawks. For 140pts you get a bright lance and embolden, making them a good choice against land raiders.

As units that are at least reasonably decent, if over priced, for their combat role, Guardians are bad but certainly not the worst unit in the book.

Well, granted I was just comparing the Guardian build that a previous poster had described (with a conceal warlock) and a non-specific "heavy weapon." The other heavy weapons are better buys, but still don't make Guardians worth their points. If I were to take guardians to support an Avatar I'd probably take Storms anyways.

I think that between jump movement, 24" range guns, 4+ save and the grenade pack, swooping hawks are a better buy than guardians, but thank you for giving a great response that says more than just "guardians are fine!" I think one of the reasons why I rag on Guardians a lot is that they're supposed to be a core unit for Eldar... but they are really so terrible that you never see them in any competitive build, and while you don't see swooping hawks either, they're kind of supposed to be a niche unit that's not too commonly seen.

Well, guardians were really only a core unit for eldar in 3rd edition. Outside of Uthwe, most craftworlds rely on Aspects for most of the fighting, fluff wise, and I think the new codex does a really good job of representing that. Dire Avengers are a very effecient troop choice, as a jetbikes and rangers. Guardians are good at support, but aren't really good front line troops of their own. Well undeniably overcosted (at least for the warlock and powers), guardians do fill their role pretty well. They provide mobile covering fire while the professionals do the real fighting.

And swooping hawks just blow. Let's not mince words. Even the YoYo squad is 132pts and, if the reserves are kind, gets you 4 S4 AP5 large blasts a game. that's nice, but you're still counting on reserves, and hoping not to wipe out the squad while deepstriking. In any other use, they're enormously overcosted and understrength.

Guardian Defenders are also really the only cheap squad the eldar have that can move, allowing it to claim objectives a little easier than say rangers.

Polonius wrote:Well, guardians were really only a core unit for eldar in 3rd edition. Outside of Uthwe, most craftworlds rely on Aspects for most of the fighting, fluff wise, and I think the new codex does a really good job of representing that. Dire Avengers are a very effecient troop choice, as a jetbikes and rangers. Guardians are good at support, but aren't really good front line troops of their own. Well undeniably overcosted (at least for the warlock and powers), guardians do fill their role pretty well. They provide mobile covering fire while the professionals do the real fighting.

And swooping hawks just blow. Let's not mince words. Even the YoYo squad is 132pts and, if the reserves are kind, gets you 4 S4 AP5 large blasts a game. that's nice, but you're still counting on reserves, and hoping not to wipe out the squad while deepstriking. In any other use, they're enormously overcosted and understrength.

Guardian Defenders are also really the only cheap squad the eldar have that can move, allowing it to claim objectives a little easier than say rangers.

Actually... the fact that pathfinders ignore cover entirely makes them GREAT for moving onto objectives in the mid-late game, as long as you don't mind giving up their shooting for the turn. It's a trick I've used many times to great effect.

willydstyle wrote:
Actually... the fact that pathfinders ignore cover entirely makes them GREAT for moving onto objectives in the mid-late game, as long as you don't mind giving up their shooting for the turn. It's a trick I've used many times to great effect.

Which is why I think most eldar players utilize them over guardians. I forgot that they actually ignore difficult terrain still though, that's pretty cool. I'm not going to argue that guardians are the fifth best troops choice available to eldar (Dire Avengers, Pathfinders, Wraithguard, Jetbikes, guardians), I'm just more convinced that Swooping Hawks or Heavy Support Weapons are worse.

Biovores...they also qualify for "Most Nerfed Unit in 4rth Edition" IMHO: Going from being Ld 10 to Ld 5; Independant to Squads; 3 separate rolls to an all-or-nothing barage; 3 pie plates to 3 small blasts; going from bad to worst thanks to 5th edition KPs on mines that don't detonate immediately.

avantgarde wrote:Lootas, they suck BS2 with d3 shots whatever.

Flash gitz are much better especially upgrade all the way since they have two wounds, work better with boyz because of they're close range weapons and have a reliable number of shots that can upgraded.

Completely disagree. Lootas have the ability to wreck everything on the field except heavy tanks, at a relatively reasonable cost. Flash Gitz are waaay too expensive, have no power klaw options for CC, and you have to give them the 135 Baddruckk to give them a decent Ld where they won't break at the first sign of trouble. In fact, while Lootas may be one of the best units in the codex, I think flash gitz may be among the most overpriced and underachieving ones.

Biovores despirately need to get FAQ'd. I vote they are the worst. They literally THROW 3 KPs at your enemy per shooting phase in 5th.

DarkHound wrote:Biovores despirately need to get FAQ'd. I vote they are the worst. They literally THROW 3 KPs at your enemy per shooting phase in 5th.

Not if you play Capture and Control

Whoa, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned 'Nid Gargoyles yet. Is it only me thats noticed that all they are is flying Guants?

Lootas are great. I had two groups of them, and they got 75 shots off(Loadsa dice )(However, it was against SM, and 7 died)

For SM:LOTD, Termis are so so, Vanguard are not so great

For Orks: Tankbustas are so so, Flash Gitz suck, and Weird boys are meh

CSM:Spawn My friend had a group of three, that got slaughtered by 10 Sternguard(Well, it was ten, but he didnt even try to move them)

Tyranids:Rippers arent that great

IG:Ogryns

Tau:Kroot are meh. Vespids are bad.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
1. Aun-'205-freaking-points'-Va. what a flat out baaad unit, seriously.

No. read your codex over and over again until you like him. Yeah he's slightly overpriced (seriously, only slightly) but you'll thank yourself.

As far as the IG go: SLY "useless catachan that used to be worth his points" MARBO

These two opinions you hold are incorrect.

Aun'va is 205 points.
He himself sucks at everything WS1, BS3. He's rather difficult to kill, but he is 205 points for something with almost no punch.

I could take a hammerhead with all the fixin's and still have points left over at that price.

His only redeeming quality is the honor guard he comes with. They look, at first glance like close combat monsters. In a shooty army.

And there's only 2 of them. You'd think the master of the undying spirit would have more than 2 honor guards. If he brought 10 he might be worth his points.
His paradox of duality gives out cover saves like candy. Just like everything else in 5th edition.

For 205 points you can have a huge mob of shoota boys with a KFF, that would be better in CC, better at range, more surviveable, and wouldn't make units run off the board if the enemy hit them with 3 S6+ weapons.
Oh, and if he dies your fire warriors get furious charge and preferred enemy.

Whoop-de-freakin doo.


Compared to Guardsman-"kill you in your sleep"-marbo who can easily make twice his points back if he rolls Ok with his melta bombs and then gets into CC with basically anything short of Meganobz or Khorne berzerkers. He's a monster.

SM: Vanguard, how many pts? Techmarines are fairly useless too.

CSM: Spawn and standard chaos space marines (why bother with anything that isn't a cult n the new rules?)

Orks: Tankbustaz are very difficult to use for the pts. Flashgitz are hella pricy for limited utility but the winner is probably zzapgunz. Worse at tankbusting than the kannon for more pts.

Eldar: Swooping Hawks are so niche it is unbelievable but I believe they are tied with the current "what happened to our haywire grenades?" guardians.

Dark Eldar: Where do you start? Hellions are useless, mandrakes are nearly useless, grottesques are nearly useless and ugly and scourges appear to have been some kind of misprint that slammed a fast attack and a heavy support choice together so that they are good at neither.

Imperial Guard: Priests, confer as many disadvantages as they do benefits for the cost of a HQ slot and those benefits are nigh on useless for any unit in the codex.

Sisters of Battle: Either repentia (will never see combat and if they do will die before they get to swing) or priests (more disadvantages than advantages and you still have to pay pts!!!)

Daemonhunters: Daemonhosts, no grey knights for you, instead have a unit that is impossible to control and wouldbe sub-par even if you could control him

Blood Angels: Scouts (you could be buying assault marines for those pts, why aren't you), captain tycho (I am bad at everything including the one thing I should be good at) and techmarines.

Dark Angels: Scouts (you could be buying terminators for those pts, wy aren't you?) and techmarines

Space Wolves: Iron Priests, there are so many characters that you HAVE TO include in a space wolf army you really can't afford another one

Black Templars: I don't actually know the current Black Templar rules.....maybe nothing?

Tau: Vespid, hello, we shoot space marines then die, horribly. Krootoxes are pretty bad too. They would be fine if they didn't remove infiltrate.

Tyranids: Biovores, mostly because of the KP thing.

Necrons: Pariahs which would be fine if they counted towards phase out or had WBB but sadly do not

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
1. Aun-'205-freaking-points'-Va. what a flat out baaad unit, seriously.

No. read your codex over and over again until you like him. Yeah he's slightly overpriced (seriously, only slightly) but you'll thank yourself.

As far as the IG go: SLY "useless catachan that used to be worth his points" MARBO

Sly, no scatter deep strike has a depth charge and is cheaper than a SWS squad Marbo?

Sly, sorry did you have a devastator/dark reaper/destroyer/war walker/ loota unit? Well not any more Marbo?

Sly, I'm a cheaper callidus assassin Marbo?

And this guy is in the same army as priests, engineseers, SWS squads and Ogryn is he?

Methinks thou dost complain too much.

Whats with the swooping hawk hate?
Kaywire grenades are mental, you may not destroy a tank in one turn but you'll almost definitely leave the crew sitting inside an immobile iron box with no weaponry. And usually they are allowed to do this with near no consequence as the eldar army had alot more juicier targets that need to be taken out.

Who wants to waste there firepower on one Swooping Hawk Unit?

combo wrote:Whats with the swooping hawk hate?
Kaywire grenades are mental, you may not destroy a tank in one turn but you'll almost definitely leave the crew sitting inside an immobile iron box with no weaponry. And usually they are allowed to do this with near no consequence as the eldar army had alot more juicier targets that need to be taken out.

Who wants to waste there firepower on one Swooping Hawk Unit?

The guy who just lost a squadron of Leman Russ to them.

Mmm...Pi wrote:

combo wrote:Whats with the swooping hawk hate?
Kaywire grenades are mental, you may not destroy a tank in one turn but you'll almost definitely leave the crew sitting inside an immobile iron box with no weaponry. And usually they are allowed to do this with near no consequence as the eldar army had alot more juicier targets that need to be taken out.

Who wants to waste there firepower on one Swooping Hawk Unit?

The guy who just lost a squadron of Leman Russ to them.

Who uses squadrons of Russ'?

In defense of orbital strikes, I think that It could be fun to take 3 lance strikes in a single game if you know it is a high terrian fight with a single objective that determines victory. If it looks like you arn't going to be able to take the terrain objective, just start dropping 3 str 10 ap 1 blasts on it each turn. Don't forget to laugh manically as your inquisitor (if he isn't dead already) stands back and watches the carnage. While not that tactically viable outside of very specific instances, Orbital strikes can be fun.

You can't take 3 Lance Strikes because they are 0-1. However, speaking of Orbital Strikes, I know of one apoc game where to "balance" up the points the DH player took 9001 Orbital Strikes (OK not that many but you know what I mean). Hilarity ensued when we realised that all the Strikes would either never come down (because of the lack of reserve rolls) or ALL come in as the half coming in on T2. They decided to just use the normal reserve rules and more laugher ensued when he rolled 4+ for every single strike on T2, thereby soaking every enemy terrain feature for the remainder of the game.

We decided to limit them to 0-3 for the next apoc game

Actually, will Swooping Hawks suddenly get good with IG heavy armored tanks in squadrens? Assault the tanks, plant more charges than God and watch as damage allocation screws them. Then can you still Skyleap? If so, /drool. If not, whatever, they aren't THAT expensive anyway.

I haven't had much luck fielding Storm Boyz - they seem very fragile for the ability just to by Jump Pack troops.

I guess if I run a max group?

willydstyle wrote:
Who uses squadrons of Russ'?

Well, the current talk for IG is to use three hydras, and most armies won't settle for just two russes, so someone will.

Actually, I remember people talking about taking un upgraded exterminators to act as shields for the rest of the squadron.

Mmm...Pi wrote:

willydstyle wrote:
Who uses squadrons of Russ'?

Well, the current talk for IG is to use three hydras, and most armies won't settle for just two russes, so someone will.

Actually, I remember people talking about taking un upgraded exterminators to act as shields for the rest of the squadron.

Vehicles that are in a squadron may not provide cover or block line of sight to other vehicles in the squadron.

Most good guard players I know don't even consider of squadrons of russes, because it makes them too vulnerable to things like fire dragons or vets with meltas.

Mmm...Pi wrote:

willydstyle wrote:
Who uses squadrons of Russ'?

Well, the current talk for IG is to use three hydras, and most armies won't settle for just two russes, so someone will.

Actually, I remember people talking about taking un upgraded exterminators to act as shields for the rest of the squadron.

The problem with Squadrons is is now far far too easy to kill them. 1/6 on a Glancing as opposed to 0% normally, 1/2 on a pen rather than 1/3, 1/3 on a Glancing AP1 and a whopping 2/3 on a Penetrating AP1 Hit. Squadrons severally reduce the survivability of a Tank, and unless you HAVE to just have your 9 Leman Russ' or 9 Flak Cannons, you are better off taking them as single Slots.

To be honest I agree about not using tank squadrons, but I can think of a few list designs that probably will make use of the rule to gain extra tanks. You also do get the benefit of not having to buy extra armor, for what that's worth.

combatmedic wrote:Imp Guard: Back in the day the ogryns used to be a decent anti-assault unit. With the new codex however, their usefulness seems less rewarding.

When was this, 1994? Ogryns have been gak as far as the 3rd edition BBB armylist.

Ogryns are fine now, IMO. They can actually take hits and dish out a fair bit of S6 pain on-the-charge.

They're still overpriced, though.

Nork Deddog costs as much as a unit of 3 ogryn including the bone 'ead... yet has the same number of wounds as a standard ogryn. Pure fail.

Sorry if people has said before VAN-FRINKIN-GUARD!!!!!

I think Nork is OK. He's good against assault armies when they're targeting your CCS.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think Nork is OK. He's good against assault armies when they're targeting your CCS.

Because he provides 3 wounds that have FNP... but are generally still going to be wounded against at T3? You could get better effect for cheaper from 2 body guards and a medic in the command squad. The only thing Nork is good against would be Str 6-9 wounds that aren't power weapon wounds... lets see what units can do that... Wraiths... well, that's it, I'm fresh out.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Ogryns are fine now, IMO. They can actually take hits and dish out a fair bit of S6 pain on-the-charge.

They're still overpriced, though.

Fine?! What part of them is fine? The part that allows armor saves for every one of their attacks? Their pitiful Initiative? Their nonexistent mobility? The complete lack of options or support units? The insultingly high cost?

Ogryns are pitiful, completely unfit to exist as a unit in anyone's armylist.

You seem to have a lot of suppressed rage towards them. Did your Ogryn minis come alive and attack you when you were a little kid?

I personally include Ogryns to go with my mighty muscular Catachans, but only against armies with bad saves like 'nids and Orks.

It might have something to do with the fact that I own fifteen, and every time I use them they get absolutely shredded.

You know they shouldn't be rampaging ahead, right?

I keep them near the fowardmost PCS until they're needed.

Fundamentally, the problem is that what the Ogryns excel at, IG does not need. Anything that's squishy enough to be threatened by them, is squishy enough to destroy via battlecannon.

Ah, but sometimes those battlecannons are too risky to use. I've had my Executioner blow up half a platoon single-handedly once.

If your opponent is smart, a battlecannon will have a helluva time removing an infantry unit in cover off an objective.

Ogryns, however, can charge the unit to either pull them off the objective, or even to kill them. There's nothing wrong with a boatload of STR6 attacks, even if your opponent has an armor save. Ask any player that uses war walkers.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Gandair wrote:
Chaos Spawn I use all the time...
Ahriman turns people into them *tee hee*

Of course, the big problem is having enough Spawn models to handle his prodigious Gift of Chaos.

This is true, I won't be able to truly spam it like I want to for a very very long time.

I noticed that a squad of Ogryns are good for stopping a fast attack or outflankers from hitting your gunlines... by the time something gets through the Ogryns, you will be ready for them...

Another use for Ogryns is to pull things out of your gun lines or objectives and keep them out of there for a good while.

Unless you see S10 weapons, a squad of Ogryns will not be going anywhere for a while...

Yeah, I think some people are under estimating what 3 T5 wounds take to kill.

willydstyle wrote:If your opponent is smart, a battlecannon will have a helluva time removing an infantry unit in cover off an objective.

Ogryns, however, can charge the unit to either pull them off the objective, or even to kill them. There's nothing wrong with a boatload of STR6 attacks, even if your opponent has an armor save. Ask any player that uses war walkers.

They aren't armor and they have 5+ saves. A group of 10 marines using basic bolters will do a little over 4 wounds to an Ogryn squad. Grey Knight Terms are only 6 pts more.



For 130 points (That's a base squad of only 3 Ogryns) Guard have a Fast Attack AV 12 tank that will put out a Flamer Template with a 2+ to wound, AP 3 no Armor saves....plus another Heavy Flamer template. That will pretty much remove any unit in the game. As an opponent of guard, I'm worried about Mech Guard armies with Chimeras/Banewolfs/Russ/Valk Vets. 40 point Ogryns with a 5+ save, not so much.

Techmarine for space marines.

But not the Master of the Forge. Six dreads, please!

I ran a 6 dread list in the prior edition. It was awesome. Troops all in Razorbacks.

Good times.

Ogryn can be alot of fun to play with. I dig em'. Worst unit in the guard book, bar none is Sly 'Guardsmen' Marbo, the free killpoint.

Kungfuhustler wrote:Ogryn can be alot of fun to play with. I dig em'. Worst unit in the guard book, bar none is Sly 'Guardsmen' Marbo, the free killpoint.

You mean Sly "Gets back his points and then some" Marbo

Kungfuhustler wrote:Ogryn can be alot of fun to play with. I dig em'. Worst unit in the guard book, bar none is Sly 'Guardsmen' Marbo, the free killpoint.

What, Sly Marbo, the 65pt deom charge from nowhere? A Str 10 AP2 large blast that arrives anywhere on the board?
For me he's one of the best things in the book for his points.

Chaos-Possessed, waste of points

I'd like to chime in with an apocalypse opinion.
Anyone remember that Tide of Spawn formation? You get 10 CSM (basic marines). Then, they all turn into spawn.
I would much rather have the regular marines. Someone mentioned that regular CSM were the worst, with which I heartily disagree. Their gear (bolter, pistol, CCW) along with their high LD and everything else that comes with being a MEQ makes them an amazing troops choice.

My Tau friend's pathfinders always die way too easily so they have yet to kill their points value.

For BT, I'd say that Sword Brethren have amazing models and decent rules, but the fact that they share an Elite slot with superior terminators, dreads and (jump pack) techmarines means that they're rarely fielded.

SW: Blood Claws with jump packs. Why?

Vindicators, again in reaction to an earlier post are wonderful. Str10 AP2 ordnance. Now that they can move 6" and dish one out per turn, I don't see any reason why not. Unless you're an idiot who lets it run around unsupported. Then I guess you deserve to lose it.

I took a vindy just for fun and to fill out points for a Regular Termi Assault list (from C:SM, not my poor DA) and parked it and a jp Chappy on an objective.

Eldar never came near it.

Not adding anything new here, just my vote on 'Rippers' for the Nids.

Would be nice if they were add-ons to other broods instead of taking up a scoring slot to include in your list and then be NON-SCORING.

I wouldn't mind their writeup as-is, if you could add 1-3 bases of Ripper Swarms as an upgrade option for Tyranid broods (go ahead and add a KP for them, that's cool).

I'd say that Ripper Swarms should be available add-ons to...
- HQ's which do not have a retinue (winged HQ's must equip Ripper Swarms with wings as well)
- Tyranid Warriors (fast attack Warriors must equip the same movement biomorph to the Ripper Swarms as well)
- Gaunts
- Carnifex
- Zoanthropes
- Biovores

Ripper Swarms must deploy with the unit they were purchsed with but are not subject to Brood coherency rules thereafter. They will follow all of the existing Ripper Swarms write-up rules as in the Tyranids codex otherwise.

Maybe too much... but my 2 cents, I'd certainly use them if they could be bought OTHER THAN as a Troops choice.
Perhaps just making them 'Fast Attack' choice (whether they have the 'Winged' biomorph or not) would work as well.

Didn't realize ripper swarms were a troops choice. I guess they fall in line with Nurglings? Necron Scarabs are a FA or created by Tomb Spyders. Maybe they could be "created" on a per turn basis with biovores?

Uriels_Flame wrote:I haven't had much luck fielding Storm Boyz - they seem very fragile for the ability just to by Jump Pack troops.

I guess if I run a max group?

Storm Boyz are fine, i run a squad of 20 and the only time they fail me is if they get to far ahead of my force or seperated somehow. Run them in KoS and see how they do when the rest of your army moves as fast or faster then they do.