I want to do this now, while there is still a window of opportunity. I have saved up now it is time to unleash my funds and get a crap ton of AT-43. But before I do it is time to recon. rackham is very poor at updating its website and giving relevant information.

So:

The Books.

QUESTION 1.
Which books do I need as core products?
If I get the Initiation boxset does this cover all the rules for the AT-43 Rulebook and the Operation Damocles Campaign Book. Which book is in the boxset and are the two books multiply redundant with the boxset?

QUESTION 2.
Also are the rules in frostbite covered elsewhere, in particular the Army books. I am not interested in buying the snow camo minitures but want to buy the basic camo/ Damocles camapign only. But are the special rules pertaining to the new heroes and units covered in frostbite unique to the book.

QUESTION 3.
What is the AT-43 Tactics book? Does it cover material that is unique to itself?



The Boxsets.

INITIATION BOXSET: OPERATION DAMOCLES
http://www.rackham.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=127&Itemid=242

QUESTION 4.
Does the Fire Toad (and/or Wraith Golgoth) in the boxset include the alternative weapons for other combat strider variants of the same chassis?

QUESTION 5.
Does the boxset include templates?



UROD/ Onin and Manon
http://www.rackham.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=165&Itemid=239

QUESTION 6.
Does this include stats to use the Urod as a standard Hetman? Otherwise how does one buy a Hetman and are there any differences.



Accessory Marker Expansion Set AT-43
http://www.rackham.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=242

QUESTION 7.
How 'far' does one set of counters go? How many sets do I need per side in a 2k-3k points game.



Accessory Expansion Set 1 Templates
http://www.rackham.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=110&Itemid=242
http://www.rackham.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=127&Itemid=242

QUESTION 8.
Are any templates also included in the initiation Boxset?



Follow up questions will be asked later about the armies I plan to buy. At the moment I am buying semi blind, though I have looked on AT-43 forums to learn a bit about the various units.

For now what it looks like I want will be, remember these are collections not field forces. Though I am interested in where these forces are balanced if at all, as a whole. items marked with ?? and italicised are items I am not sure about.

U.N.A.

1x U.N.A. Army Book
2x Initiation Set Operation Damocles contents (2x Fire Toad 18x Steel trooper)
1x Steel Trooper Attachment (6 special Steels Troopers)
1x Wing Trooper unit (6 Wing troopers)
?? 1x Wing Trooper attachment (?? 6 special wing troopers)??

?? 1x Fire Toad (with extra weapons variants in a crate)??
1x Defender Snake
1x Copperhead and Col G Stark
?? 1x Defender Cobra M8 ??
1x Fire Crawler

1x 3 Jam TAC-ARMS
1x 3 Deathdealer TAC-ARMS
1x 3 Steel TAC-ARMS

?? Sgt Bors ??
?? Cpt Newton ??


Therians

1x Therian army Book
2x Initiation Set Operation Damocles contents (2x Wraith Golgoth 16x Storm Golem)
1x Storm golem attachment (6 special Storm Golems)
2x Assaut Golems (12 assault golems)
1x Assault Golem attachment (6 assault Golems)

1x 3 Bane Goliaths
1x 3 Assault Goliaths
1x 4 Assault medusae

1x Baal Golgoth*

?? Tiamat??
?? Urash ??

*I might buy another Ball Golgoth (or two!) to cut up into two scratchbuilt Hekat Golgoths each, this fits the background, saves money and may be needed due to the ability to summon hektas out of in game command points. I also hate the Hekat model.


Red Blok

1x Red Blok book
1x Red Army box (Dotch Yaga, Urod, 20 krasny Soldaty, 6 Dragonov Kommandoes)
1x Krasny Soldaty attachment (6 special Krasny)
?? 1x RPG Soldat Unit (8 RPG)??
?? 1x RPG Soldat attachment (6 special RPG)??

1x 3 stielitz Kolossus
1x 3 Dragomirov Kolossus
1x 3 RPG Kolossus

1x Sierp
1x Molot
??1x Nokovalny??

1x Kossak
??1x Urod (as Hetman)??

??Sgt Tymofiyeva
Cpt Vrachov??


No monkeys as yet. Tempted but....

QUESTION 9.
Anything glaringly wrong with the above, or missing, excepting the dirty apes.


Thasnkyou for your help, I wanbt to get this right and know the opportunity is now or never, or at least soon or never. The rules seem tight I love (most of) the miniatures and with prepaint I can splash out without adding to my backlog.

Come on Dakka, it took a lot of effort to get all this together, will noone bother to answer?

QUESTION 1.
Which books do I need as core products?
If I get the Initiation boxset does this cover all the rules for the AT-43 Rulebook and the Operation Damocles Campaign Book. Which book is in the boxset and are the two books multiply redundant with the boxset?

Damocles and the starter boxes do only have short introductory booklets. You will need the rulebook and the army book of the army you want to play. An excerpt of the rulebook you can get here: http://www.at-43.com/pdf_EN/AT43/AT-43_rules.pdf It is only missing the fluff, missions and unit building rules.

QUESTION 2.
Also are the rules in frostbite covered elsewhere, in particular the Army books. I am not interested in buying the snow camo minitures but want to buy the basic camo/ Damocles camapign only. But are the special rules pertaining to the new heroes and units covered in frostbite unique to the book.

Frostbite does have some additional core rules, so the box shoudl be bought. You will get the newer miniatures only in frostbite camo, but it is quite easy to repaint them since their paint job works like a base coat. Transports, new heroes and units are only available via the Frostbite box.

QUESTION 3.
What is the AT-43 Tactics book? Does it cover material that is unique to itself?

Tactics is a rules-set for commando-like operations and not needed to play AT. It adds some spice (adds some rpg-elements) but you can live without it.

QUESTION 4.
Does the Fire Toad (and/or Wraith Golgoth) in the boxset include the alternative weapons for other combat strider variants of the same chassis?

No, FT 2 and 3 which are sold separately do have one random weapon set and 4 (Frostbite camo, sold seperately ) does have all options included (2 and 3 will be phased out).

QUESTION 5.
Does the boxset include templates?

No, but there´s a set which includes dice, template and meter that does cost below 10$. Only one template is needed for the game.

QUESTION 6.
Does this include stats to use the Urod as a standard Hetman? Otherwise how does one buy a Hetman and are there any differences.

Urod is a Hetman, but sometime in the future a seperate Hetman is going to be released, until then just use Urod with the stats found in the army book.

QUESTION 7.
How 'far' does one set of counters go? How many sets do I need per side in a 2k-3k points game.

Markers can be downloaded from their website for DiY, but you can also buy packs from GF9, one pack is enough for 1000 AP. Since standard play is around 2500 AP 2-3 packs should suffice.

QUESTION 8.
Are any templates also included in the initiation Boxset?

As far as I know: Yes!

U.N.A.

1x U.N.A. Army Book
2x Initiation Set Operation Damocles contents (2x Fire Toad 18x Steel trooper)
1x Steel Trooper Attachment (6 special Steels Troopers)
1x Wing Trooper unit (6 Wing troopers)
?? 1x Wing Trooper attachment (?? 6 special wing troopers)??

?? 1x Fire Toad (with extra weapons variants in a crate)??
1x Defender Snake
1x Copperhead and Col G Stark
?? 1x Defender Cobra M8 ??
1x Fire Crawler

1x 3 Jam TAC-ARMS
1x 3 Deathdealer TAC-ARMS
1x 3 Steel TAC-ARMS

?? Sgt Bors ??
?? Cpt Newton ??

Quite some stuff to choose from. I would get another two FT and if you want all weapons options they should be even 3 from Frostbite
Also I would get another Steel TacArm Unit, you will need it. Get also another Steel Trooper Attachement. Wing Troopers are quite specialised, but their specalist guns are quite nice. Jam Tac Arms you can buy later, Get the hero for the Deathdealers, gives them quite some punch and another list that allows you to field DDs is included with Frostbite.

Therians

1x Therian army Book
2x Initiation Set Operation Damocles contents (2x Wraith Golgoth 16x Storm Golem)
1x Storm golem attachment (6 special Storm Golems)
2x Assaut Golems (12 assault golems)
1x Assault Golem attachment (6 assault Golems)

1x 3 Bane Goliaths
1x 3 Assault Goliaths
1x 4 Assault medusae

1x Baal Golgoth*

?? Tiamat??
?? Urash ??

*I might buy another Ball Golgoth (or two!) to cut up into two scratchbuilt Hekat Golgoths each, this fits the background, saves money and may be needed due to the ability to summon hektas out of in game command points. I also hate the Hekat model.

One Baal is enough for 3000 AP, Get another Bane Goliath unit. Atis Astarte and Grim Golems (Unit + Attach) are a must, also Nina/Babel Zero. Urash you can buy quite some time later, Tiamat is your choice. Therians can be run without heros, no problem there. Get another Assault Golem and Storm Golem Attachement. Only the two Wraiths that are available seperate do have the optional weapons (random up unitil now).

Red Blok

1x Red Blok book
1x Red Army box (Dotch Yaga, Urod, 20 krasny Soldaty, 6 Dragonov Kommandoes)
1x Krasny Soldaty attachment (6 special Krasny)
?? 1x RPG Soldat Unit (8 RPG)??
?? 1x RPG Soldat attachment (6 special RPG)??

1x 3 stielitz Kolossus
1x 3 Dragomirov Kolossus
1x 3 RPG Kolossus

1x Sierp
1x Molot
??1x Nokovalny??

1x Kossak
??1x Urod (as Hetman)??

??Sgt Tymofiyeva
Cpt Vrachov??

You definitely need dragonov and you need two full units if possible. Their snipers make your day. Type 1 AFV should be bought in units of three and if you want Tymo get a fourth Nakovalny. Vrachov is a good choice, but you need Dragomira to make really good use of the Dragomirov.

QUESTION 9.
Anything glaringly wrong with the above, or missing, excepting the dirty apes.

Nothing wrong, good questions.

Have fun playing AT.

You may want to wait a bit longer as well. There are some very nice army boxes coming out in the Summer for $70 that will include a full 2K pt army.

http://www.rackham.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=258&Itemid=234

But they dont seem to be available in the UK...
mick

jwiv wrote:You may want to wait a bit longer as well. There are some very nice army boxes coming out in the Summer for $70 that will include a full 2K pt army.

http://www.rackham.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=258&Itemid=234

Getting the Red Blok army box had been taken account of with the army lists above.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Damocles and the starter boxes do only have short introductory booklets. You will need the rulebook and the army book of the army you want to play. An excerpt of the rulebook you can get here: http://www.at-43.com/pdf_EN/AT43/AT-43_rules.pdf It is only missing the fluff, missions and unit building rules.

So let me get this straight. I need:

Army book - even if I get an initiation set or two (for the minatures).
Frostbite
Army books for each army collected.

I do not need At-43 tactics or the Damocles Campaign book.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Frostbite does have some additional core rules, so the box shoudl be bought. You will get the newer miniatures only in frostbite camo, but it is quite easy to repaint them since their paint job works like a base coat. Transports, new heroes and units are only available via the Frostbite box.

If Frostbite is a boxst what else does it include?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

QUESTION 5.
Does the boxset include templates?

No, but there´s a set which includes dice, template and meter that does cost below 10$. Only one template is needed for the game.

QUESTION 8.
Are any templates also included in the initiation Boxset?

As far as I know: Yes!

Ok, confused which way around you have this.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Markers can be downloaded from their website for DiY, but you can also buy packs from GF9, one pack is enough for 1000 AP. Since standard play is around 2500 AP 2-3 packs should suffice.

Is that 1000AP per side? I am looking to fully host these games with friends, so do I need 3 packs or even more

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Also I would get another Steel TacArm Unit, you will need it. Get also another Steel Trooper Attachement. Wing Troopers are quite specialised, but their specalist guns are quite nice. Jam Tac Arms you can buy later, Get the hero for the Deathdealers, gives them quite some punch and another list that allows you to field DDs is included with Frostbite.

Hmm I am thinking of getting three units of heavy *** infantry suits for each faction wuth no duplication except for possibly adding heroes or officers. I have heard many nice things about Steel Tac-Arms but I dont want my armies to have built in crutches with three units each army available, no more no less it will lead to tough choices as to what to include in a game.

What is your opinion on star Troopers?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
One Baal is enough for 3000 AP, Get another Bane Goliath unit. Atis Astarte and Grim Golems (Unit + Attach) are a must, also Nina/Babel Zero. Urash you can buy quite some time later, Tiamat is your choice. Therians can be run without heros, no problem there. Get another Assault Golem and Storm Golem Attachement. Only the two Wraiths that are available seperate do have the optional weapons (random up unitil now).

likewise I will be getting one heavy *** strider for each army. the second Baal is because Warstore is selling them at $22 while a hekat is $22.50. I also hate the Hekat model. one Baal will be cut up the six legs will form the propulsion for two smaller golgoths. also as there is a direct continuity it makes more sense when you think about the Therians strider combining powers.
I have not seen any grim golem attachments, are you sure they are out yet.

What is so special about nina Zero?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
You definitely need dragonov and you need two full units if possible. Their snipers make your day. Type 1 AFV should be bought in units of three and if you want Tymo get a fourth Nakovalny. Vrachov is a good choice, but you need Dragomira to make really good use of the Dragomirov.

I have been tempted to drop the RPG Kolossus in favour of two units of Dragomirov a breach of the above rules because you get rockets anyway so the flavour is there and dragomirovs allow the reds to spit further than thier own boots. Any reason to keep RPG Kolossus?

Also how important is it to run light * striders in groups of three, this will be expensive also will there be a lot of overkill especially with the Molot? I was looking at the lone Sierp as a harasser unit the points costs of a trio of light striders takes up a huge chunk of my points especially after i have bought a Dotch Yada, what else would be left for infantry and Kollossi?

So let me get this straight. I need:

Army book - even if I get an initiation set or two (for the minatures).
Frostbite
Army books for each army collected.

I do not need At-43 tactics or the Damocles Campaign book.

You got it right.

If Frostbite is a boxst what else does it include?

3 Civil engineers, 12 gaming tiles 30x30cm, two elysium crystals, 13 gaming cards and a 16 page mission booklet.

Ok, confused which way around you have this.

The boxed army sets do have dice, ruler, template. But there's also a seperate set which includes all three. Damocles does only have ruler and dice.

Is that 1000AP per side? I am looking to fully host these games with friends, so do I need 3 packs or even more

Yes, but printing them out and laminating them does the job too. The GF9 are just the luxury variant.

Hmm I am thinking of getting three units of heavy *** infantry suits for each faction wuth no duplication except for possibly adding heroes or officers. I have heard many nice things about Steel Tac-Arms but I dont want my armies to have built in crutches with three units each army available, no more no less it will lead to tough choices as to what to include in a game.

What is your opinion on star Troopers?

Two Steel Tac Arms are definitely a must, nearly all players I know field two of them. The others are seen by most as rother supportive units with special roles. Steels are the workhorse units.

One unit star troopers should suffice. They are not strong, but when it comes to holding objectives every man counts. With AT most of the times it is the combination of troops rather than using "the Uber-Unit" that wins you battles.

likewise I will be getting one heavy *** strider for each army. the second Baal is because Warstore is selling them at $22 while a hekat is $22.50. I also hate the Hekat model. one Baal will be cut up the six legs will form the propulsion for two smaller golgoths. also as there is a direct continuity it makes more sense when you think about the Therians strider combining powers.
I have not seen any grim golem attachments, are you sure they are out yet.

What is so special about nina Zero?

OK, but you don´t need more than two. I do have two and three is shere overkill. Grim Golems don´t have attachements up until now, but will get them with the new packaging.

Nina/Babel can lead a unit of Bane Goliaths (4 in a unit!) and also can have RB units in her army, also Zero Fire allows you to sniper while moving. If Babel is killed Nina ejects from it (Nina is a Bane Goliath) and can attach to a Bane Goliath unit if she wants to.

I have been tempted to drop the RPG Kolossus in favour of two units of Dragomirov a breach of the above rules because you get rockets anyway so the flavour is there and dragomirovs allow the reds to spit further than thier own boots. Any reason to keep RPG Kolossus?

Also how important is it to run light * striders in groups of three, this will be expensive also will there be a lot of overkill especially with the Molot? I was looking at the lone Sierp as a harasser unit the points costs of a trio of light striders takes up a huge chunk of my points especially after i have bought a Dotch Yada, what else would be left for infantry and Kollossi?

Hm, RPG colossus rockets reach further than normal rpgs and you get 4 instead of 3. So sometimes they are the better option. Proxy and try out what fits your style of play better. Also with the upcoming transports kolossus win quite some speed. Also Frostbite allows you to use units of up to 5 Kolossus (Standard 3 + Additional one thanks to new rules + hero).

Nakovalny 3 are a must. Sierp are fun when going against infantry-heavy enemies and three Sierp can steal 3 FP from every opposing enmy army every round. Molot are also fun against infantry-heavy enemies, but you don´t need the full three. Zviezda is a nice mixture and because of this 3 are good to make the best out of it. Units of three makes it easier to avoid moral checks. If you loose one * in a unit of two it hurts you more than in a unit of three, cause you have to check moral once your unit goes down to one *. You will face nearly always enemy units that field packs of three *. So its better for you to do it too. Dotch Yaga should bee seen as what it is: a support unit, not an assault unit, taht´s what ** are for and to some extent maxed out * units. Generally we include *** in our armies when playing with 2600+ AP and *** only really start to be fun with 3000 AP. Buying a *** at lower AP is suicide since it concentrates too much AP in one unit. Remember that in addition to the LP your commanding officer gives you every unit in your army gives you one additional AP. And you will need AP to run your show.

Orlanth , im also interested in at-43 , would it be ok if i ask in this thread too so its altogether in 1 spot?

Q1: Does the game have must take minimum requirements units? If yes, could you tell me them for the factions?

Q2: Is Omega Tiamat a heroe? only 1 allowed per army?

Q3: For the units with replacement heads (UNA i guess) does that mean you can rotate their head to different directions?
( i noticed many of them werent looking in the direction they are shooting at in the photos )



Thanks :")

Q1: Does the game have must take minimum requirements units? If yes, could you tell me them for the factions?

You have one mandatory unit type you must take (one out of five slots). Depending on which army or faction you play it can be an infantry unit or an AFV.

Q2: Is Omega Tiamat a heroe? only 1 allowed per army?

Except für GenCol lists, where clones are allowed, only one hero of its kind in your army. Tiamat is a hero.

Q3: For the units with replacement heads (UNA i guess) does that mean you can rotate their head to different directions?
( i noticed many of them werent looking in the direction they are shooting at in the photos )

Yes you can.

Ahh , regarding Q1 , are these the ok for mandatories?

Therian : storm golems ( bane goliath maybe? )
UNA: Tac arms
Red Blok : Collosus ( speznaz and rpg )
Karman: Wendigos

LunaHound wrote:Orlanth , im also interested in at-43 , would it be ok if i ask in this thread too so its altogether in 1 spot?

Join in, it would be a good idea to get a solid help set up for reference in this time, with AT-43 being temporarily cheap. Outside this window I wont be able to get much, but now its army time.

*Additional info for the firetoad question you asked.

The latest winter camo toad does not come with crate, but it does have all the weapon options isntead.

*Another question i have:

Does 1 attachment unit fit right into 1 normal unit by itself?

Ok, here is my first order.

Qty. Name Product ID Price Total
1 AT-43 Frostbite Bitz - Rulebooks (Campaign & Gaming Aid)
RKATX07-BK1 7.25 $ 7.25
1 AT-43 Therians Assault Goliaths Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATT16 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 Therians Assault Medusa Unit Box
RKATT12 14.99 $ 14.99
1 AT-43 Therians Baal Golgoth (Clearance)
RKATT05 20.00 $ 20.00
2 AT-43 Therians Bane Goliaths Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATT15 10.00 $ 20.00
1 AT-43 Therians Storm Golem Attachment Box (Clearance)
RKATT11 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 Therians Tiamat Hero Box (Clearance)
RKATT07 15.00 $ 15.00
1 AT-43 Therians Assault Golem Attachement Box (Clearance)
RKATT14 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 UNA Death Dealer TacArm Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATU18 15.00 $ 15.00
1 AT-43 UNA Colonel G. Stark & Cobra (Clearance)
RKATU09 15.00 $ 15.00
1 AT-43 UNA Defender Snake Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATU05 15.00 $ 15.00
1 AT-43 UNA Jam Tacarm (Clearance)
RKATU19 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 UNA Steel Tacarms Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATU17 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 U.N.A Open Steel TacArm (Promo Fig)
ATRKX2 5.00 $ 5.00
1 AT-43 UNA Lieutenant G. Epstone (Clearance)
RKATU21 6.00 $ 6.00
1 AT-43 UNA Shock Tacarms Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATU20 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 UNA Captain H. Newton Hero Box (Clearance)
RKATU08 5.00 $ 5.00
1 AT-43 UNA Sergeant A. Borz Hero Box (Clearance)
RKATU07 5.00 $ 5.00
1 AT-43 Accessory Medtec Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATX08 12.00 $ 12.00
3 AT-43 Initiation Set Operation Damocles (Clearance)
RKATX01 30.00 $ 90.00
1 AT-43 Rulebook (Clearance)
RKATX02 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 Therian Army Book (Clearance)
RKATT01 5.00 $ 5.00
1 AT-43 UNA Army Book (Clearance)
RKATU01 5.00 $ 5.00
Sub Total $ 325.24
Shipping/Handling $ 0.75
Sales Tax $ 0.00
Total $ 325.99

Take a look and tell me what is missing, but no cookie to the guy who say 'the Red Blok army'; that has to wait. So does the Frie Crawler.

Some points:

1. Yes I do mean three Initiation sets, that gives me the core of my infantry for both armies right there. Let alone three Fire Toads. I was going to get two Initiation sets but a full trio of Fire Toads sounded like it made sense, and for $8 more than one toad I might as well get a whole new boxset.

2. Assault Golem attachment but no Assault Golems. With three initiation boxsets I cannot see the reason to have any, Storm Golems do a similar job and Bane Goliaths and Assault Medusae yield the same firepower. I bought the boxset to have a different second Overseer for my Storm Golems and more importantly a full trio of flamers to add to another unit.

A question here: Why bother with Grim Golems either, except to take talon girl? From what I can see Storm Golems will cut anyone into little man chunks, ape chunks being marginally more difficult.

What I am thinking is that with Storm Golems and more Storm Golems as my root infantry I build up a faceless horde feel to the army, with the Goliaths providing the nearest thing to character. Firepower and asault value isnt bad either. So three maxed out Storm Golem units with two Overseers and enough flamers for one unit and sonic guns for all three, oh and one boxset of Assault Medusae for flavour. Good ** infantry horde Y/N?

3. I took the advice and got two boxes of Bane Goliaths rather than one, and a box of Assault Goliaths.

4. Three Wraith Golgoths, I suspect I only really need two. I made a 4k point list with the army builder and couldnt sqeeeze in a third anyway, not with the Baal and Tiamat, and not without taking a third platoon. This was with a Cypher list.

5. Atis-Astarte was on clearance price but Grim Golems were not, another reason not to get any. Can I add Atis to a Storm Golem unit? and would I get any benefit for doing so. I strongly throught about buying the mini and replacing one set of blades with a nanoblaster for a third Overseer. Still I like the mini enough I may be talked into a set of grim Golems on the next pass, especially as all I will need is the unit boxset as I have three flamers spare already to make up a full unit.

6. Right onto the U.N.A. Apart from the three Fire Toads I went for one of everything.

7. This does mean one Steel Tac Arm for now, though I did get the special edition miniture which if Duncan idaho is right will allow me to build a legal unit of 4.

8. It also means a Shock Tac Arm which I had not previously considered. I diont know what good a single token close combat units will have, though I have heard that Shock Tac Arms can do the job, Shock Troopers just die. The other reason I am not rushing to buy Shock Troopers is due to model cost, they are not discounted.

9. My Death Dealers get their hero, Epstone, this unit costs twice the others in $$$. I hope she is worth it.

10. No Shock Trooper attachment boxset. The box was too expensive and my three Shock Trooper units are all full and have two missile launchers each anyway. From what I am reading this is enough. Later I can bit order some mechanics or medics, from what i have heard though lock shot missile launchers are all I really want for the infantry special weapons regardless. How many mechanics should I buy?

11. No Wing troopers or Star Troopers as of yet. I didnt buy from warstore but from Miniature Market, and they did not do a discount. I wont want more than one unit of each anyway.

12. Two ** striders the Cobra and the Snake. The Fire Crawler is tempting but too expensive for now, some with the M8.
while on this what are your thoughts on ther M8, with three Fire Toads some Steel Troopers and lot of locked missile launchers I wonder if I really need the direct fire gun. I am considering not buying at all, though I must say I do like the mini.

13. Got the full rulebook and two army books, and bits ordered the Frostbite book (the reason I bought from Miniatures Market). This should ber everything until I buy the Red Blok book with the new army yes?

14. Open to any other comments....

LunaHound wrote:*Additional info for the firetoad question you asked.

The latest winter camo toad does not come with crate, but it does have all the weapon options isntead.

I think I would prefer the container. I really like the look of the chain guns but the more I look at the rules the more I am seeing it would be foolish to move away from default armament. It would be nice to have one armed with Iron Rain as a change, but from what I am reading this requires another slot and splits a unit into one and a pair.

Besides the lasers are damn useful and have excellent accuracy which wehen combined with the high speed of the unit should really put on the hurt.

With three Fire Toads in a squadron will I really need the second Steel Tac-Arm unit?

Question for Orlanth:

Is the Initiation set's rule book different than the $10 one you ordered separately ?

Did you ask about shipping for your order? , i was told the 3 initiation set takes up their 1 full box ( $31 )

Not sure if they'll charge double for the 2nd box.

LunaHound wrote:Question for Orlanth:

Is the Initiation set's rule book different than the $10 one you ordered separately ?

Apparently yes it is. Duncan idaho knows exactly what is missing. He implied it missed out the army points costs themselves as the Intitation set offers set scenarios with the box contents and doesnt account for list building.

I strongly recommend getting Initiation boxsets anyway with or wirthout the book the amount of minis you get for the price builds the core of two good armies. Even with current discounts on unit boxsets you will pay more for the two striders than you will for the entire Initiation box, especially the Fire Toad which is not discounted. In fact as stated above rather than pay $22 per Fire Toad I bought three intiation sets at $30 each, its a no brainer.
This is of little benefit if you only want Red Blok or Karmans. Indeed Red Blok are the faction that catches my imagination most. for that I will wait until the release of the $70 army boxset.

LunaHound wrote:
Did you ask about shipping for your order? , i was told the 3 initiation set takes up their 1 full box ( $31 )

Not sure if they'll charge double for the 2nd box.

Shipping was to an address in the USA where all the good will be depackaged for the journey to me. AT-43 stuff is very heavily overpackaged. I might get an initiation box or two itself inside the shipping box, but they will be filled with books, cards and minis in plastic bags. This will slash postage costs, postage to the reshipping address is free because of the order size.

Therian : storm golems ( bane goliath maybe? )
UNA: Tac arms
Red Blok : Collosus ( speznaz and rpg )
Karman: Wendigos

No/Yes. Since there are several factions to any main party it changes from faction to faction, also only the type (stars) is mandatory but not a specific unit.

Does 1 attachment unit fit right into 1 normal unit by itself?

Well, up until the apes yes. With the apes some units do have two attachement boxes to better cater to the players. Some units showing up since Januray follow this trend. Beginning with the deal army boxes there will be amajor change where you just buy whole units (everything included).

@Orlanth:

miniature market is willing to unpack the stuff for you to save shipping fee?

Ok, here is my first order.

Qty. Name Product ID Price Total
1 AT-43 Frostbite Bitz - Rulebooks (Campaign & Gaming Aid)
RKATX07-BK1 7.25 $ 7.25
1 AT-43 Therians Assault Goliaths Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATT16 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 Therians Assault Medusa Unit Box
RKATT12 14.99 $ 14.99
1 AT-43 Therians Baal Golgoth (Clearance)
RKATT05 20.00 $ 20.00
2 AT-43 Therians Bane Goliaths Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATT15 10.00 $ 20.00
1 AT-43 Therians Storm Golem Attachment Box (Clearance)
RKATT11 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 Therians Tiamat Hero Box (Clearance)
RKATT07 15.00 $ 15.00
1 AT-43 Therians Assault Golem Attachement Box (Clearance)
RKATT14 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 UNA Death Dealer TacArm Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATU18 15.00 $ 15.00
1 AT-43 UNA Colonel G. Stark XREPDROPDRIPz Cobra (Clearance)
RKATU09 15.00 $ 15.00
1 AT-43 UNA Defender Snake Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATU05 15.00 $ 15.00
1 AT-43 UNA Jam Tacarm (Clearance)
RKATU19 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 UNA Steel Tacarms Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATU17 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 U.N.A Open Steel TacArm (Promo Fig)
ATRKX2 5.00 $ 5.00
1 AT-43 UNA Lieutenant G. Epstone (Clearance)
RKATU21 6.00 $ 6.00
1 AT-43 UNA Shock Tacarms Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATU20 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 UNA Captain H. Newton Hero Box (Clearance)
RKATU08 5.00 $ 5.00
1 AT-43 UNA Sergeant A. Borz Hero Box (Clearance)
RKATU07 5.00 $ 5.00
1 AT-43 Accessory Medtec Unit Box (Clearance)
RKATX08 12.00 $ 12.00
3 AT-43 Initiation Set Operation Damocles (Clearance)
RKATX01 30.00 $ 90.00
1 AT-43 Rulebook (Clearance)
RKATX02 10.00 $ 10.00
1 AT-43 Therian Army Book (Clearance)
RKATT01 5.00 $ 5.00
1 AT-43 UNA Army Book (Clearance)
RKATU01 5.00 $ 5.00
Sub Total $ 325.24
Shipping/Handling $ 0.75
Sales Tax $ 0.00
Total $ 325.99

Take a look and tell me what is missing, but no cookie to the guy who say 'the Red Blok army'XREPDROPDRIPz that has to wait. So does the Frie Crawler.

Looks good, but go for another steel tacarm unit. To get full teams out of the Damocles boxes you would need to buy attachement boxes since the infantry units are just oversized unit box content.

Some points:

1. Yes I do mean three Initiation sets, that gives me the core of my infantry for both armies right there. Let alone three Fire Toads. I was going to get two Initiation sets but a full trio of Fire Toads sounded like it made sense, and for $8 more than one toad I might as well get a whole new boxset.

See comment above.

2. Assault Golem attachment but no Assault Golems. With three initiation boxsets I cannot see the reason to have any, Storm Golems do a similar job and Bane Goliaths and Assault Medusae yield the same firepower. I bought the boxset to have a different second Overseer for my Storm Golems and more importantly a full trio of flamers to add to another unit.

A question here: Why bother with Grim Golems either, except to take talon girl? From what I can see Storm Golems will cut anyone into little man chunks, ape chunks being marginally more difficult.

What I am thinking is that with Storm Golems and more Storm Golems as my root infantry I build up a faceless horde feel to the army, with the Goliaths providing the nearest thing to character. Firepower and asault value isnt bad either. So three maxed out Storm Golem units with two Overseers and enough flamers for one unit and sonic guns for all three, oh and one boxset of Assault Medusae for flavour. Good ** infantry horde Y/N?

Get the Assault Golems, you need them to field the attachement, also their wepons have a grater range. I several times managed to kill off an AFV with an Assault unit. Banes are AFV-hunters, but Assault have greater number and thus give you an advantage when controlling mission objectives (Higher number of unit member in contact is what counts). Medusa are heavy hitters, but slow and few.

Grims give you two CC attacks you will definitely need when teleporting with Atis. So it would be foolish not to get them. Also Atis can only join Grim Golems.

Therian are not an horde army and rely on their routines. Your army is not that cheap compared to the other human ones. You can´t rely on hordes you have to wisely choose the gears that keep your machine running.

3. I took the advice and got two boxes of Bane Goliaths rather than one, and a box of Assault Goliaths.

Good choice, Assault are usefull when you plan to support the Bane but also want the enemy infantry being taken care of.

4. Three Wraith Golgoths, I suspect I only really need two. I made a 4k point list with the army builder and couldnt sqeeeze in a third anyway, not with the Baal and Tiamat, and not without taking a third platoon. This was with a Cypher list.

I have seen lists with three. Many players prefer Poltergeist and Incubus since they are more specialized, but One or two Wraith don´t hurt.

5. Atis-Astarte was on clearance price but Grim Golems were not, another reason not to get any. Can I add Atis to a Storm Golem unit? and would I get any benefit for doing so. I strongly throught about buying the mini and replacing one set of blades with a nanoblaster for a third Overseer. Still I like the mini enough I may be talked into a set of grim Golems on the next pass, especially as all I will need is the unit boxset as I have three flamers spare already to make up a full unit.

You can only field Atis with a Grim Unit.

6. Right onto the U.N.A. Apart from the three Fire Toads I went for one of everything.

Good choice, onyl get another Steel TacArm and you might want to get another Toad for your hero, so you can have a 4er Toad Unit.

7. This does mean one Steel Tac Arm for now, though I did get the special edition miniture which if Duncan idaho is right will allow me to build a legal unit of 4.

Yes, you can field a unit of four, but only DD with Epstone, there are no other TacArm heros. Red Blok can field more thanks to Frostbite.

8. It also means a Shock Tac Arm which I had not previously considered. I diont know what good a single token close combat units will have, though I have heard that Shock Tac Arms can do the job, Shock Troopers just die. The other reason I am not rushing to buy Shock Troopers is due to model cost, they are not discounted.

Depends on your style of play, Shocks are seldom played but can hit hard if guided with wisdom.

9. My Death Dealers get their hero, Epstone, this unit costs twice the others in $$$. I hope she is worth it.

Does sound 24 dice per salvo good?

10. No Shock Trooper attachment boxset. The box was too expensive and my three Shock Trooper units are all full and have two missile launchers each anyway. From what I am reading this is enough. Later I can bit order some mechanics or medics, from what i have heard though lock shot missile launchers are all I really want for the infantry special weapons regardless. How many mechanics should I buy?

Depends on which faction you play and what advantages and disadvantages they have. Sometimes you need mor mechanics, sometimes more medics.

11. No Wing troopers or Star Troopers as of yet. I didnt buy from warstore but from Miniature Market, and they did not do a discount. I wont want more than one unit of each anyway.

Buy it later, what you got will do the job for quite some time.

12. Two ** striders the Cobra and the Snake. The Fire Crawler is tempting but too expensive for now, some with the M8.
while on this what are your thoughts on ther M8, with three Fire Toads some Steel Troopers and lot of locked missile launchers I wonder if I really need the direct fire gun. I am considering not buying at all, though I must say I do like the mini.

If you killed all enemy AFV and the enemy has mainly infantry around you really will cherish Cobras. Also you will need a hard hitter that can deliver a finishing blow.

13. Got the full rulebook and two army books, and bits ordered the Frostbite book (the reason I bought from Miniatures Market). This should ber everything until I buy the Red Blok book with the new army yes?

Should do the job.

14. Open to any other comments....

Slightly exhausted from answering..... tomorrow you can ask me new questions.

I think I would prefer the container. I really like the look of the chain guns but the more I look at the rules the more I am seeing it would be foolish to move away from default armament. It would be nice to have one armed with Iron Rain as a change, but from what I am reading this requires another slot and splits a unit into one and a pair.

Having some specialists around when infantry is swarming around you is quite nice. Later you will need one.

Is the Initiation set's rule book different than the $10 one you ordered separately ?

Yes it is, the linked pdf is an excerpt from the 10$. The Damocles is a rather basic introduction to TT and the absolut basics of AT. So you really need the 10$ one.

Looks good, but go for another steel tacarm unit. To get full teams out of the Damocles boxes you would need to buy attachement boxes since the infantry units are just oversized unit box content.

Sorry for so many questions Duncan >< , for 2 Damocle box sets , how many attachment do i fill them with? ( and which type of attachment? )

same question with Therians too.

Also, how long does their army book last for? will they get new ones when the army box come out?

Thank you!


Could you give me tips too same way with orlanth's list? super appreciated! ( *note Yes i love how tac arms look! )

1 AT-43 UNA Steel Tacarms Unit Box
3 AT-43 UNA Death Dealer TacArm Unit Box
1 AT-43 UNA Lieutenant G. Epstone
1 AT-43 U.N.A Open Steel TacArm (Promo Fig)

3 AT-43 UNA Colonel G. Stark & Cobra
3 AT-43 UNA Defender Snake Unit Box

* Therian list:

(contents in the Damocole set ) +
Nina / Babylon Zero ( for Lady In Red rule , how many kollosus can she take along? )
1 Bane Goliath Box
Tiamat
Baal Golgoth

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Looks good, but go for another steel tacarm unit.

No more Steel Tac-Arms I think. I am at 5k points already and excluding only the missing Fire Crawler and a minimum Wing Troopers unit.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
To get full teams out of the Damocles boxes you would need to buy attachement boxes since the infantry units are just oversized unit box content.

This I do not understand, you get a leader and eight troopers including two missile launchers. There are supposedly two leaders but I see no obvious leader at all. In any case a leader can be designated or even have sgt striped painted on, voila - full unit.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Get the Assault Golems, you need them to field the attachement,

I was clear on why I bought the attachment, to get enough flamers for an alternatve loadout for the Storm Golems asnd to have some nucleus cannon on the side for a support unit on the side, just for a change. I cannot afford to buy Assault Golems.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Grims give you two CC attacks you will definitely need when teleporting with Atis. So it would be foolish not to get them. Also Atis can only join Grim Golems.

So what do I need to buy? Atis and one unit boxset with the three flamers already collected would work yes? My Storms would have full sonic guns with no swapout but I can live with that.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Therian are not an horde army and rely on their routines. Your army is not that cheap compared to the other human ones. You can´t rely on hordes you have to wisely choose the gears that keep your machine running.

My sample full army has Tiamat and two Delrta overseers with the Golems, but that was a token list, at the moment I am getting just those three overseer models plus whichever Goliths and golgoths I promote to alpha. This should be enough yes?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Good choice, Assault are usefull when you plan to support the Bane but also want the enemy infantry being taken care of.

Glad I got this bit right.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
....Three Wraith Golgoths....

I have seen lists with three. Many players prefer Poltergeist and Incubus since they are more specialized, but One or two Wraith don´t hurt.

Modelling point: Is it feasible for me to hope to be able to swap over a weapon from two of them to get one of each type of ** Golgoth?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Good choice, only get another Steel TacArm and you might want to get another Toad for your hero, so you can have a 4er Toad Unit.

You are pretty insistant on the Steels. So you recommend Four Toads and six Steel Tac-Arms, which hero do I run with this (and which on foot) - I have bought both.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Depends on your style of play, Shocks are seldom played but can hit hard if guided with wisdom.

I am begining to think its not the powerlance but the flamer thats useful. Thats a lot of anti infantry firepower on a forward unit. Anyway the Shock tac Arm were for a bit of variety, I cannot claim to have a plan as yet. Do most Shock Tac Arm users spam them? and do they tag team with with Shock Troopers.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
.....My Death Dealers get their hero, Epstone, this unit costs twice the others in $$$. I hope she is worth it.....

Does sound 24 dice per salvo good?

I think this is going to break a few games.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Depends on which faction you play and what advantages and disadvantages they have. Sometimes you need mor mechanics, sometimes more medics.

The lists I have been loking at are default for the UNA and Cypher for the Therians. Not for the disadvantages and advantages but for the platoon organisation. As yet I have no medics and mechanics, as they are built fro units rather than added I might convert some Steel Troopers to a role. They carry the same gun so a medic backpack or toolkit should suffice. As I want at least one Steel Trooper attachment box at some point i should have aty least one of each coming eventually.
However I do have Borz and a Med Team to help out for now.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
If you killed all enemy AFV and the enemy has mainly infantry around you really will cherish Cobras. Also you will need a hard hitter that can deliver a finishing blow.

Only one Jam Tac Arm unit and one Defender are dedicated anti AFV in all I have got, not too much wastage there. I only have one dedicated anti infantry unit also most everything else is multi role.
Sounds though that you recommend a second Cobra is I want a third ** strider though, yes? To do this I need to buy another Col Stark and Copperhead boxset?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Slightly exhausted from answering..... tomorrow you can ask me new questions.

Shall be waiting.

LunaHound wrote:

1 AT-43 UNA Steel Tacarms Unit Box
3 AT-43 UNA Death Dealer TacArm Unit Box
1 AT-43 UNA Lieutenant G. Epstone
1 AT-43 U.N.A Open Steel TacArm (Promo Fig)

3 AT-43 UNA Colonel G. Stark & Cobra
3 AT-43 UNA Defender Snake Unit Box

* Therian list:

(contents in the Damocole set ) +
Nina / Babylon Zero ( for Lady In Red rule , how many kollosus can she take along? )
1 Bane Goliath Box
Tiamat
Baal Golgoth

From what little I know:

1. Am I right in reading that you want 6 Defender striders and 14 Tac-Arm suits plus the Damocles set? I assume you want two platoons of Morningstar here.

2. You know the open steel tac arm suit is a single model, is not a hero and is only of use as an alternative model.

3. Three quarters of your strider firepower is locked shot only of use against vehicles. Three quarters of your Tac-Arm firepower is of use only against infantry. Against imbalanced lists, either way, you have a LOT of wastage.
Might you be better with some Fire Toads in place of some snakes? Ask around.

4. Do you want to make use of the Steel Troopers that come in the Initiation boxset, and for that matter the Fire Toad? You can use each to replace a sinlge Defender saving some money and some points and still have a valid Morningstar list.

LunaHound wrote:@Orlanth:

miniature market is willing to unpack the stuff for you to save shipping fee?

No, I have the order shipped to a third party, who depackages for me. US postage is free so its still only one trip paid for. Also depackaged goods are legally second hand and thus can be honstly and legally devalued for customs purposes. After all the packaging is not required to play, but does effect resale value.

LunaHound wrote:

Looks good, but go for another steel tacarm unit. To get full teams out of the Damocles boxes you would need to buy attachement boxes since the infantry units are just oversized unit box content.

Sorry for so many questions Duncan >< , for 2 Damocle box sets , how many attachment do i fill them with? ( and which type of attachment? )

Buy three Damocles boxsets, you get enough Storm Golems and wraith Golgoths to make an army of itself with very little added on. I only really added the Goliaths, Baal golgoth and a hero to make a big 5000pt army. Dirt cheap entry into the game.

You also get enough Fire Toads to make up a squadron- hence buying exactly three boxsets and lots odf Steel troopers too. depending on what you want you might have too many wraiths or Steel Troopers for your army and could have some 'wastage', however the Fire Toads will always be handy and because thery coast $22.50 each and the Intiation boxset sets you back only $30 I fail to see any reason not to triple up.
Note you can buy Initiation boxset Fire Toads as bits from miniatures Markwet at $18 each, but even so what else you get for $12 more than makes up.

The only thing you lose out on is lacking weapons options for the Fire Toads, but lasers are good yes.

Sorry for so many questions Duncan >< , for 2 Damocle box sets , how many attachment do i fill them with? ( and which type of attachment? )

same question with Therians too.

Depends, both are enough for a min.size unit, but a max. unit would need at least one attach for each party for every Damocles box. With Storm attach you get an Overseer, Flamer, additional Sonic Gun and Steel you get officer, vulcano mg, medic, mechanic and heavy laser. You won't field three units with all options included, but with three attach boxes each you have enough pieces to swap between units to create units tailored to their intended job.

Also, how long does their army book last for? will they get new ones when the army box come out?

Army boxes do only include a rather short, abreviated army booklet for starters. You will need the full army book and they are not intended to be rotated out because of e.g. a second edition. (Quite some time until a second edition).

1 AT-43 UNA Steel Tacarms Unit Box
3 AT-43 UNA Death Dealer TacArm Unit Box
1 AT-43 UNA Lieutenant G. Epstone
1 AT-43 U.N.A Open Steel TacArm (Promo Fig)

3 AT-43 UNA Colonel G. Stark & Cobra
3 AT-43 UNA Defender Snake Unit Box

Get another steel tacarm unit and for the time being you can drop DD TacArms to two. They are rather spezial TacArms who need Frostbite and a Morningstar or special DD-list to be fielded. They are interesting when the enemy has a lot of infantry with many soldiers in every unit. You can field only one Stark and you will field most of the times at best two Snakes/Cobra of the same type. So you can drop them to two. Get 2 attach boxes for the steel unit from Damocles and for you other steel unit box. Oh, and he´s right, get some Fire Toads.

* Therian list:

(contents in the Damocole set ) +
Nina / Babylon Zero ( for Lady In Red rule , how many kollosus can she take along? )
1 Bane Goliath Box
Tiamat
Baal Golgoth

She can take one RB unit with her, it's your choice which (in your case three kolossus)
Get another Bane Goliath unit and also the attachment box for the unit of the damocles box.
Also get either Atis and one Grim Golem unit or an Assault Golem Unit and Attach.



PS.: My comments aim at giving both of you you quite a good pool to start from and to learn how the game works. They are in no way a worked out list. There are at the time being one general- and 4 sub-faction-lists for each army and even they are rather flexible at what can be put into the list, so it would be impossible to already create a list.

Read your books, play some games and then buy additionel stuff that fits best to your preferred playing style/list.

1. Am I right in reading that you want 6 Defender striders and 14 Tac-Arm suits plus the Damocles set? I assume you want two platoons of Morningstar here.

2. You know the open steel tac arm suit is a single model, is not a hero and is only of use as an alternative model.

Q1-2: Yes those 14 tac arm are what i currently have , and i was wondering if they make legal units , or do i need to do something else with them
yes i already have the 6 strider models ( dont think its legal to field them all though? )
So basically with what i have listed above ( again, probably illegal list, i want to know what mandatory things do i need to be able to play )

4. Do you want to make use of the Steel Troopers that come in the Initiation boxset, and for that matter the Fire Toad? You can use each to replace a sinlge Defender saving some money and some points and still have a valid Morningstar list.

Yes , i would like to use the steel troopers ( thats what they are called? kk ) So each Initiation set of steel trooper i can attach 1 attachment units ?
Im guessing the morning star is something that allows me to mix 2 fire toads with one defender strider ?

Finally , i do like 3 Initiation Sets yes , but again they told me they wont be able to keep them in 1 box with the shipping price.
And i dont need 3 frogs since i already have the defenders in person ( if i understood correctly about been able to throw them together )

Also i apologize for causing confusion , i'll list what i currently have vs what i plan to order:

Have: the 14 tac arm , 6 defenders.

Ordering: 2 Initiation box , rule book , army book. Baal gogloth , Nina Babylon , Bane Goelm , Tiamat


So basically between what i have vs what im ordering , i wanted to ask what things am i missing or should add to make it
a playable legal army.


*Edit Duncan posted right before i pressed submit xD

No more Steel Tac-Arms I think. I am at 5k points already and excluding only the missing Fire Crawler and a minimum Wing Troopers unit.

You won't be able to field it all, but you need a good pool to choose from, so i would go for another. Besides standard battles are at 2500 and you should try out which army style fits your play. If it´s too much for now at least put it on a list what to get later.

This I do not understand, you get a leader and eight troopers including two missile launchers. There are supposedly two leaders but I see no obvious leader at all. In any case a leader can be designated or even have sgt striped painted on, voila - full unit.

Depends, both are enough for a min.size unit, but a max. unit would need at least one attach for each party for every Damocles box. With Storm attach you get an Overseer, Flamer, additional Sonic Gun and Steel you get officer, vulcano mg, medic, mechanic and heavy laser. You won't field three units with all options included, but with three attach boxes each you have enough pieces to swap between units to create units tailored to their intended job.

I was clear on why I bought the attachment, to get enough flamers for an alternatve loadout for the Storm Golems asnd to have some nucleus cannon on the side for a support unit on the side, just for a change. I cannot afford to buy Assault Golems.

OK. If it´s too much for now at least put it on a list what to get later.

So what do I need to buy? Atis and one unit boxset with the three flamers already collected would work yes? My Storms would have full sonic guns with no swapout but I can live with that.

Yes. Should do the job.

My sample full army has Tiamat and two Delrta overseers with the Golems, but that was a token list, at the moment I am getting just those three overseer models plus whichever Goliths and golgoths I promote to alpha. This should be enough yes?

Depends on which list you are playing, bit with Omega Tiamat you don´t need two Deltas. Make one an Alpha and if you really want to have an backup officer in case Tiamat really bites the dust, keep one Delta. You should read through the army book to get an impression of how to built your army. But should be enough for the moment. Goliaths can only get Relais but can´t become officers.

Modelling point: Is it feasible for me to hope to be able to swap over a weapon from two of them to get one of each type of ** Golgoth?

In the best case you just have to carefully wriggle them off their pegs in the worst case you have to cut the pegs and use some metal/plastic rods as replacement. The small round caps on the sides of the wepons can be removed and swapped to the other side. So, yes, if you can handle some tools it should be able to make one Poltergeist, one Wraith and one Incubbus with swapable parts.

You are pretty insistant on the Steels. So you recommend Four Toads and six Steel Tac-Arms, which hero do I run with this (and which on foot) - I have bought both.

I am fielding them myself this way and they sometimes really save the day, besides when one unit is killed I still have back-up and they are good at marking targets for bigger units. Borz or Newton can hop into the fourth FT. Borz is the fire control ace and Newton knows how to handle a wrench.

I am begining to think its not the powerlance but the flamer thats useful. Thats a lot of anti infantry firepower on a forward unit. Anyway the Shock tac Arm were for a bit of variety, I cannot claim to have a plan as yet. Do most Shock Tac Arm users spam them? and do they tag team with with Shock Troopers.

Spam is rather seldom with AT, you need an army that can cover several aspects of warfare, like with an modern army. Flamers are really hot if you can get them within the flamer distance, so yes, they really can be nice in such cases. But don' bet on their survival when marching them on an open field against enemy units . Besides Flamers in AT are round templates, since the substances used only ignite when they hit a target.

Does sound 24 dice per salvo good?

I think this is going to break a few games.

Not breaking, but your opponent wil stay the heck out of the way of this unit.

The lists I have been loking at are default for the UNA and Cypher for the Therians. Not for the disadvantages and advantages but for the platoon organisation. As yet I have no medics and mechanics, as they are built fro units rather than added I might convert some Steel Troopers to a role. They carry the same gun so a medic backpack or toolkit should suffice. As I want at least one Steel Trooper attachment box at some point i should have aty least one of each coming eventually.
However I do have Borz and a Med Team to help out for now.

Then it should do the job.

Only one Jam Tac Arm unit and one Defender are dedicated anti AFV in all I have got, not too much wastage there. I only have one dedicated anti infantry unit also most everything else is multi role.
Sounds though that you recommend a second Cobra is I want a third ** strider though, yes? To do this I need to buy another Col Stark and Copperhead boxset?

If you can get it at a good price I would go for another one. Second Stark can always be sold of on ebay if you dan´t want him.

Have: the 14 tac arm , 6 defenders.

Ordering: 2 Initiation box , rule book , army book. Baal gogloth , Nina Babylon , Bane Goelm , Tiamat

OK, If that´s what you got, it really needs a big game to include them all in a list, though it is still possible (4500 AP+ list I would say). But then you still really need some stuff to fill out the rest of your slots. Get what I suggested in the last post to you and forget about the dropping.

*K after reading Ducan's latest post i'll edit in his recommendations with what i have

Have: the 14 tac arm , 6 defenders.

Ordering: 2 Initiation box , rule book , army book. Baal gogloth , Nina Babylon , Bane Goelm , Tiamat

*Addition from Duncan: 2 UNA steel attachment box ( uhoh out of stock ) , 2 storm golem attachment box , ( did you say earlier more bane goliath ? total of 6 to go with Nina? )

Steel tac arms you wanted , are they light lasers ? ( same ones as fire toad in the ini set? )

2 storm golem attachment box , ( did you say earlier more bane goliath ? total of 6 to go with Nina? )

Two bane goliath units are good and give you quite some needed fire power, one unit of three can be fielded with Nina as the fourth. And then you have another unit to create havoc somwhere else.

Steel tac arms you wanted , are they light lasers ? ( same ones as fire toad in the ini set?

Yes and yes. Hit hard, but can´t take as hard a punch as a FT does, but are way cheaper.

Hmm there is nothing i can do about steel attachment unit out of stock ( so fire power aside , can the Ini set be fielded legally atleast? )

Same with storm golems ?

Yes it can. There should be some attach out with the next wave (Frostbite Camo). Possible that the old Attach boxes are sold out

Once again thanks, this is to me At-theory with half information and no real experience, but I have no choice. If I wait until post firesale to get exactly the minis I need it will be too late to get in the game. also the armies might look big, but how many of us 40k players would buy an army bigger than these for far more before starting. If I was to replace each trooper with an cadian, each strider with a Sentinel or Dreadnough and each battlesuit/goliath with a marine I would have enough here for two very small and incomplete armies. It only looks a lot because AT-43 is played smaller scale.

Current price for a boxset of Tac-Arms $10, usual price is $30, and can reach that price in pounds if bought over here. low prices are due to Fantasy Flight Games not renewing the licence and needing to sell off company stock, the only intended discount items are the Army boxes at $70 and E70 respectively, if you want in you can wait on only those.

So lessons learned so far:

1. For UNA I need to get on the next run:

1x Steel Tac-Arm boxset
1x Fire Crawler
1x Wing trooper boxset
1x Wing trooper attachment boxset
1x Fire Toad* for a four toad unit.

Medics and mechanics for my Steel troopers. Now Duncan idaho say that the initiation boxsets are good for 'minimum' units but not complete. If I already have two special weapons and a full squad of nine what am I truly missing? Attachment boxsets are not discounted, I should be able to convert up medics and mechanics and so am missing out only on the other weapon options.

For Therians:

1x Atis Astarte
1x Grim Golems (enough for a unit of nine with three flamers and the hero)

Then its onto my Reds, new starting projection here is:

1x Army box (Dotch Yaga, Urod, 20 krasny Soldaty, 6 Dragonov Kommando)
1x Steilitz Kolossus
1x RPG Kollossus
2x Dragomirov Kolossus
1x Lt Dragomira
3x Nokovalny
1x Molot
1x Sgt Timofiveya
1x Hetman (Urod boxset)
1x Kossak
1x Cpt Vrachov
1x Krasny Solday boxset
1x Krasny Soldaty attachment boxset
1x Dragonov Kommando unit boxset
1x Dragonov Kommando unit attachment boxset

Items not discounted in italics, trying to minimise these.

* This might mean a fourth Initiation boxset, at that point I will start dumping excess minis onto eBay.

You can also get a fourth Nakovalny for Tymo if you want.

*another question:

Do all tac arms have Laser designation ?

Orlanth wrote:Once again thanks, this is to me At-theory with half information and no real experience, but I have no choice. If I wait until post firesale to get exactly the minis I need it will be too late to get in the game. also the armies might look big, but how many of us 40k players would buy an army bigger than these for far more before starting. If I was to replace each trooper with an cadian, each strider with a Sentinel or Dreadnough and each battlesuit/goliath with a marine I would have enough here for two very small and incomplete armies. It only looks a lot because AT-43 is played smaller scale.

Current price for a boxset of Tac-Arms $10, usual price is $30, and can reach that price in pounds if bought over here. low prices are due to Fantasy Flight Games not renewing the licence and needing to sell off company stock, the only intended discount items are the Army boxes at $70 and E70 respectively, if you want in you can wait on only those.

So lessons learned so far:

1. For UNA I need to get on the next run:

1x Steel Tac-Arm boxset
1x Fire Crawler
1x Wing trooper boxset
1x Wing trooper attachment boxset
1x Fire Toad* for a four toad unit.

Medics and mechanics for my Steel troopers. Now Duncan idaho say that the initiation boxsets are good for 'minimum' units but not complete. If I already have two special weapons and a full squad of nine what am I truly missing? Attachment boxsets are not discounted, I should be able to convert up medics and mechanics and so am missing out only on the other weapon options.

For Therians:

1x Atis Astarte
1x Grim Golems (enough for a unit of nine with three flamers and the hero)

Then its onto my Reds, new starting projection here is:

1x Army box (Dotch Yaga, Urod, 20 krasny Soldaty, 6 Dragonov Kommando)
1x Steilitz Kolossus
1x RPG Kollossus
2x Dragomirov Kolossus
1x Lt Dragomira
3x Nokovalny
1x Molot
1x Sgt Timofiveya
1x Hetman (Urod boxset)
1x Kossak
1x Cpt Vrachov
1x Krasny Solday boxset
1x Krasny Soldaty attachment boxset
1x Dragonov Kommando unit boxset
1x Dragonov Kommando unit attachment boxset

Items not discounted in italics, trying to minimise these.

* This might mean a fourth Initiation boxset, at that point I will start dumping excess minis onto eBay.

I would NOT use 3 Nakovalnies 1 would get ONE only when I need timofiyeva in AFV, otherwise I will any day any time get Sierps indirect fire (more potential to KILL or Ground). I personally would go for more Krasny (Grenades Launchers and Rocket Launchers) and RPG Soldaty for RPG.-... Dragonovs I will get 3-5 complete units in ratio 2:3 of Snipers /AT Gauss gun

LunaHound wrote:*Side Red Blok question:

Are the Molotv and Hussar their only anti AFV units?

Molot is Anti infantry and maybe Anti type 1 AFV (not so effective as it can only hurt once)

Hussar-Hetman-Kossak- dotch Yaga all are Anti AFV and Infantry alike

all Rocket Lanuchers (RPG and Dragomirov Kollossus, Kransy and RPG soldat)
AT Gauss Gun from the Dragonov Komandos

Wolfen wrote:
I would NOT use 3 Nakovalnies 1 would get ONE only when I need timofiyeva in AFV, otherwise I will any day any time get Sierps indirect fire (more potential to KILL or Ground).

I heard nasty things about Sierps, 'borkan' comments same as heard over babylon zero. Besides I am looking at Zviezda as an alternative best of both worlds.

Can I mix * striders in a squadron or must all be the same? It would be nice to have a mixed unit led by sgt Timofiyeva.

I was looking at the Nakovalny as a one size fits all unit to march forward at the right time and blow to snot whatever tasrget is designated to die. its also on discount, as with the Molot, the Sierp and Zviezda are full price. I have to take this into account.

So far I envision a single Molot is there for the loudspeakers - you only need one comrade shouting to stop enemy disruption yes? it also looks like a nice lurking counterattack unit.

Wolfen wrote:
I personally would go for more Krasny (Grenades Launchers and Rocket Launchers) and RPG Soldaty for RPG.-... Dragonovs I will get 3-5 complete units in ratio 2:3 of Snipers /AT Gauss gun

RPG Soldat, sound stupid when most of them are not armed with RPG's. Besides looking at the krasny I get all I need right there and they can take the same rockets too. Besides trading 2 accuracy and my reroll for an extra shot on the basic weapon doesnt look like a deal. Even at point blank range those clowns will miss.

Also while on this why would I ever want Spetsnaz? dragonovs on the other hand sound tasty. So you reckon I max out on snipers and atgauss yes. ok, how many medics and Ew specialists should I include?

Wolfen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:*Side Red Blok question:

Are the Molotv and Hussar their only anti AFV units?

Molot is Anti infantry and maybe Anti type 1 AFV (not so effective as it can only hurt once)

Hussar-Hetman-Kossak- dotch Yaga all are Anti AFV and Infantry alike

all Rocket Lanuchers (RPG and Dragomirov Kollossus, Kransy and RPG soldat)
AT Gauss Gun from the Dragonov Komandos

Can Molots pay themselves back in the 'one shot' you get, also while lurking does Loudspeaker pay for itself in your opinion?

RPGs in the basic infantry really jack up the price and are only accuracy 1, any reason not to take grenade launchers instead and rely on something else - read Kolossi - for the AT firepower.

With the downloadable rules being incomplete I am still trying to work out how flamers are used. what does the [25] mean. I am currently guessing they are very short range but never miss.

@Orlanth , i have heard lots of praises on the Winter Camo Molots . Buy it if even for the super paint job for it!

On a side note, why dont game sellers list the basic requirement + minimum unit size for products ><
i know we should have army book, but for the ones that buys it all at once need more info ~

All striders in a unit must be of the same type.

[25] means the range in cm and designates weapon that have an auto-hit up to the distance in []. It´s also their max. range.

Orlanth wrote:

Wolfen wrote:
I would NOT use 3 Nakovalnies 1 would get ONE only when I need timofiyeva in AFV, otherwise I will any day any time get Sierps indirect fire (more potential to KILL or Ground).

I heard nasty things about Sierps, 'borkan' comments same as heard over babylon zero. Besides I am looking at Zviezda as an alternative best of both worlds.

Can I mix * striders in a squadron or must all be the same? It would be nice to have a mixed unit led by sgt Timofiyeva.

I was looking at the Nakovalny as a one size fits all unit to march forward at the right time and blow to snot whatever tasrget is designated to die. its also on discount, as with the Molot, the Sierp and Zviezda are full price. I have to take this into account.

So far I envision a single Molot is there for the loudspeakers - you only need one comrade shouting to stop enemy disruption yes? it also looks like a nice lurking counterattack unit.

Wolfen wrote:
I personally would go for more Krasny (Grenades Launchers and Rocket Launchers) and RPG Soldaty for RPG.-... Dragonovs I will get 3-5 complete units in ratio 2:3 of Snipers /AT Gauss gun

RPG Soldat, sound stupid when most of them are not armed with RPG's. Besides looking at the krasny I get all I need right there and they can take the same rockets too. Besides trading 2 accuracy and my reroll for an extra shot on the basic weapon doesnt look like a deal. Even at point blank range those clowns will miss.

Also while on this why would I ever want Spetsnaz? dragonovs on the other hand sound tasty. So you reckon I max out on snipers and atgauss yes. ok, how many medics and Ew specialists should I include?

Ok step by step....

Nakovalny are "ok" (IMHO) against infantry, Sierps TOO, but ALSO ground those that do not kill (meaning if you dont kill type 3 inf, they will be grounded and cannot do anything next activation - except UNA-) and are indirect fire -- so usually only one of your unit need LOS compared to Nakovalny which is direct fire and usually enemies AFV can target them far easier

Striders unit MUST be only one type, so no combining

Molot´s Loudspeakers will only work against other RedBlok players (UNTIL NOW), if that so, I would be worried about other things than interference and disruption. Molots is FANTASTIC against infantry, do not expect to actually kill AFV with one or 2 flamers... in units they "may" kill ONE FIRE toad or Trike if shotting with the 4 or 6 flamers of 2 or 3 molots...

Zviedas I would only ever use it againts The karman hero that make untis stealth OR heavy grim golems Therians armies.. otherwise I would stick with SIERPS -- besides Sierps advantage of interference is far deadlier vs therians armies destroying the much needed LP

RPG Vs. Krasny.... its all about how you play - AP vs. AP are close match... KRasny I mainly use them in Front line plattons as they have the mechanics... In the end it allways come to your preference... I prefer RPG as I "feel" that since you have to get close to bring the rocket launcher to kill something the 2 shoots are better thatthe 1 + re roll --- thats my opinion.

In the Spetsnats I agree i would go with Dragonov any day... Specialists?...well again is preference.... against therians I try max EWS or 1/1 other armies I would go 2 medics

Orlanth wrote:

Wolfen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:*Side Red Blok question:

Are the Molotv and Hussar their only anti AFV units?

Molot is Anti infantry and maybe Anti type 1 AFV (not so effective as it can only hurt once)

Hussar-Hetman-Kossak- dotch Yaga all are Anti AFV and Infantry alike

all Rocket Lanuchers (RPG and Dragomirov Kollossus, Kransy and RPG soldat)
AT Gauss Gun from the Dragonov Komandos

Can Molots pay themselves back in the 'one shot' you get, also while lurking does Loudspeaker pay for itself in your opinion?

RPGs in the basic infantry really jack up the price and are only accuracy 1, any reason not to take grenade launchers instead and rely on something else - read Kolossi - for the AT firepower.

With the downloadable rules being incomplete I am still trying to work out how flamers are used. what does the [25] mean. I am currently guessing they are very short range but never miss.

NO i do not believe 1 single molot can destroy any AFV in 1 or 2 shoots... unless it is too damaged before which i wouldnt bother to destroy unless absolutely necesary and its only type 1 AFV

Well Inf is necessary as Kollosi can be grounded easily... thats the main disadvantage... if the enemy has indirect fire expect them to be VERY grounded... even if it doesnt hurt them they wil be useless

You nee to target each flamer separately to a single mini WITHIN the maximum range of 25cm...

I wasnt considering Molots vs AFV's but a mobile reserve against infantry. In other words if an 'average' enemy infantry unit reaches an objective and I send up one Molot do deal with it which dies first?

Let me see if I get this right: A flamer must target a mini with the far part of its base within 25cm, it autohits with the full blast radius for the weapon even if the nearby enemies are outside the 25cm range.

Let me see if I get this right: A flamer must target a mini with the far part of its base within 25cm, it autohits with the full blast radius for the weapon even if the nearby enemies are outside the 25cm range.

Yes, 25cm is the max. for placing the center of the template.

BTW. it is a quite common tactic for RB to have Units with mechanics advance behind type ** AFV. Quick repair and they are protected until you reach your target.

Question for Red Block List :




3x3 AT-43 Red Blok Strielitz Kolossus Units
1x1 AT-43 Red Blok RPG Kolossus Unit

+ the army box:
• 1 unit of 12 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing three grenade launchers, two medics and an officer
• 1 unit of 8 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing one grenade launcher, two mechanics and an officer
• 6 Dragonov Kommandos: elite infantry with one sniper rifle, an electronic warfare specialist, a medic and an officer
• Odin O-1 and Manon O-2: the Red Blok’s two greatest heroes
• 1 Urod: Odin O-1’s and Manon O-2’s combat strider
• 1 Dotch Yaga: the most heavily armored combat strider to ever grace the battlefield


Am i missing lots of anti armor units atm?
Also , are the Soldaty and Kommandos already filled with attachments? ( not sure if the grenade launcher the infantry have are like warhammer ones o_o)

* Side question , do the unit all need to be in 3's ? i sort of converted a kolossus into Ork , so the unit is 2 now ><

* Regarding the faction's play style , can you tell me if i got this right?

UNA = long range , not accurage or hard hitting or tough. But can mark targets and snipe at safe distance (Tau?)
Red Blok = Short range assault weapons , tough AFV ( Eldars? )
Karman = Strong in both range and assault but few in numbers ( Space Marines? )
Therian = Good at sneaking and confusing enemies ... ( Protoss? )

LunaHound wrote:Question for Red Block List :




3x3 AT-43 Red Blok Strielitz Kolossus Units
1x1 AT-43 Red Blok RPG Kolossus Unit

+ the army box:
• 1 unit of 12 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing three grenade launchers, two medics and an officer
• 1 unit of 8 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing one grenade launcher, two mechanics and an officer
• 6 Dragonov Kommandos: elite infantry with one sniper rifle, an electronic warfare specialist, a medic and an officer
• Odin O-1 and Manon O-2: the Red Blok’s two greatest heroes
• 1 Urod: Odin O-1’s and Manon O-2’s combat strider
• 1 Dotch Yaga: the most heavily armored combat strider to ever grace the battlefield

I am looking at something broadly similar to bolster the Army Box.

1x3 Strielitz Kolossus
1x3 RPG Kolossus
1x3 Dragomirov Kolossus plus Lt Dragomira.
1x Sierp
1x extra Urod

From my research over the last few days a broad mix of Kollossi helps as they all have roles. Whaty you are doing above looks problematical. Your Krasny are purely short range anti infantry, Strielitz Kollossus are the same. This leaves you short elsewhere. The Dotch Yaga appears to be a medium range unit, though brutal and only the Urod/ Hetman has any real reach. This is why I think the Dragomirov and RPG Kollossi really help. Looking at what everyone else can take Red Blok cannot really compete at long range, only the Hetman has any real reach with accuracy 6, and then only on one gun. This is clearly a gimic level of firepower and should be better considered a medium range gun/strider which is very likely to hit at the ranges Red Blok prefer to fight at.
I am looking to get two Hetman total for this versatility and because they still have rockets and cost no more than a Kossak. Also with a penetration of 18 its so likely to damage even a *** strider that it to all intents and purposes achives through brute force what a jammer achives through finesse.

All in all it looks to me that if Red Blok want to close and shoot and win they need to play to their strtengths and bring what they of what they are good at, deploying heavily armoured units most weapons will bouce off with a good supply of heavy hitting rockets backed up by rapid firing/area effect anti infantry firepower. I am also thinking this balance should err slightly on the side of heavier armour over quantity and rockets over anti infantry.

LunaHound wrote:
Am i missing lots of anti armor units atm?

Yes, it seems so to me.

LunaHound wrote:
Also , are the Soldaty and Kommandos already filled with attachments? ( not sure if the grenade launcher the infantry have are like warhammer ones o_o)

The Army box doesnt have units and optional attachments, but 'fixed' units with all upgrades preselected. A full krasny Soldaty squad of two boxsets consists of 14 miniatures and a lot of waste, you also need mutliple attachment boxsets to max out such things as heavy weapons and medics, all are normally supplied at a rate of one of each per attachment boxset. Though I am seeing some multiple special weapons for the Therian boxsets. All this measn you get fully filled out useful units both maximum and minimum sizes, but not swappable without buying extra boxsets from scratch. I am tempted to just take the three infantry units in the boxset as 'what I have got' rule out further reinforcments of light infantry and concentrate on buying Kolossi instead, after all Kollossi boxsets are $10 each, but a new Soldaty unit boxset and attachment boxset together will cost between $30 and $45 depending on what you get.

LunaHound wrote:
* Side question , do the unit all need to be in 3's ? i sort of converted a kolossus into Ork , so the unit is 2 now ><

Yes they do, but I too have been thinking about buying extra Kollossi for turning into meganobz. As you can buy two boxsets of Kollossi for the cost of a single meganob blister I would not feel too bad about allocating a few to conversions. in fact I am sorely tempted to so the same myself.

LunaHound wrote:
* Regarding the faction's play style , can you tell me if i got this right?

UNA = long range , not accurage or hard hitting or tough. But can mark targets and snipe at safe distance (Tau?)
Red Blok = Short range assault weapons , tough AFV ( Eldars? )
Karman = Strong in both range and assault but few in numbers ( Space Marines? )
Therian = Good at sneaking and confusing enemies ... ( Protoss? )

let us call this a test for me to see if I am getting it right.

UNA. Unlike warhammer range and accuracy are one. There is no mechanic to allow for long range inaccurate weaponry unless the same gun is also an accurate short ranged weapon.
I agree that UNA are not especially tough but they are hard hitting, with all the laser designators they can uise and the stabilised battlesuits UNA have a lot in common with Tau.

Red Blok. They are orks if anything. Rokkits, rokkits, rokkits, and have no shortage of "BS2". Like orks the Red Blok have glaring weaknesses, but you can also spam out units that complement your strengths close with the enemy and thrash him in a close range firefight. Where Red Blok differs from orks is that you want to get up close, but not actually in close combat.

Karmans. Agreeed on the quality, but I am thinking they play more like Thousand Sons, Dearthwatch or Grey Knights. The single most pressing point about the Karmans is that the uinfantry, while superior to some degree are overcosted and glass jawed. Offset this by adding in a bunch of skimmers and you have Wraithguard and Vyper heavy Eldar.

Therian. I have been looking at the disruptive special abilities of some Therian heroes, but by and large they look like a sideshow, a little option to keep the enermy guessing. Therians need not be sneaky but can come stright for you, they can summon units and igmnore morale, just about everyone has a nasty close combat attack and yet the army does not lack for heavy accurate ranged firepower. Theriamns have a lot in common weith Necrons, but with the close combat ability of a chaos force.

K for anti armor , you said i should field Dragomirov Kollosus ? should i add Dragomira Hero with them? ( Whats the difference between the Dragomira model?
looks the same but just more expensive and er... more white paint o_o )





You said 2x Urod is it this thing? ( how do you include 2? )


* And the RPG for the foot troops, are they not the same anti armor weapons the RPG kolosus use?

LunaHound wrote:K for anti armor , you said i should field Dragomirov Kollosus ? should i add Dragomira Hero with them? ( Whats the difference between the Dragomira model?
looks the same but just more expensive and er... more white paint o_o )

First I am learning myself, seek a second opinion on this, hopefully Idaho and others will chime in where we are getting it wrong and we will both learn.
Well yes. I suppose you can have your Lt Dragomira by buying another Dragomirov boxset instead and using two suits as Meganobz. Same price in cash.

If you check out the links given you in this thread you can get the same info I have:

AT-43 Forum
http://en-forum.at-43.com/index.php

AT-43 Army builder and general resource - very useful!!
http://rcommunity.nazgulworld.com/

Repeat link of the rules Duncan_Idaho posted above.
http://www.at-43.com/pdf_EN/AT43/AT-43_rules.pdf

Also visit the Rackham site itself and download the army card PDF fro each race. Though the data is incomplete. You get it all in the army builder program anyway.


Back to the Kollossi.... lets talk about them in more 40K terms-ish there are two anti armour options RPG Kollossi cost 425pts and fire Assault4 Accuracy2 S11 doing two wounds a hit. Dragomirov Kollossi cost 375pts have an RPG arm with assault 2 rockets as before and a gauss gun which is assault3 Accuracy 3 S7 causing one wound a hit. You dont get the full on anti tank firepower, but battlesuits can fire their guns seperately so all the RPG's can fire at one target and all the gauss at another. S7 looks good to slaughter infantry and lighter UNA battlesuits. None of the other Kolossi have anything like the same S for their guns.
Now with Lt Dragomirov you get the Gestalt special rule, I am not sure exactly what you get but you do get +2 accuracy with the squad. So now your Dragomirov are firing at ranges 4 and 5 respectively with their guns. This is now on a par with most of the UNA weapons, though the lasers still outrange you. The trouble is the new upgunned Dragomirov squad now costs 540pts for four suits.

I dont know if Lt Dragomira is a hero, he doesnt appear to have hero rules listed but I cannot take multiple squads with the Lt upgrade.

LunaHound wrote:
You said 2x Urod is it this thing? ( how do you include 2? )

You cannot have two Urod, though the At-43 forum talks of a special 'hero cloning' list that allows precisely that. I am ignoring this opportunity to cheese out, which is really just an exceuse to sell more hero models which are otherwise one per customer. In any case still buy two Urods, the reason is because Urod is just the fancy name for a particular Hetman, which is the class of vehicle. Unlike Vrachov and Timofiyeva who have stat cards for their own individual versions of regular vehicles and are sold seperately, the heroes and 'Urod' are sold together but the Hetman is not sold at all. You get the same problem with Defender Cobras for UNA, if you want a Defender Cobra you need to buy the Copperhead and Col Stark box.
You dont need to ever use Onin and Manon if you dont want to, you could just take the two hetman. remebmer as one is included in ther upcoming army Box you will only need to buy one Onin and manon/Urod set to get a second Hetman if you so wish, you could of course buy a third, and a fourth....as many as you like.

LunaHound wrote:
* And the RPG for the foot troops, are they not the same anti armor weapons the RPG kolosus use?

Yes, the Red Blok prefer a one size fits all for rockets, which fits the theme really. All are two shots at S11 except those on the ** striders which are S12 and fire three times. Accuracy varies, basic * infantry has acuracy 1, everything else except ther heavy striders has accuracy 2, kossaks et al have accuracy 3. So rockets are pretty much the same all over, its just the launcher thats different.

Thank you Orlanth! seriousely with all these names and armor varaitions i was getting beyond confused. K i'll take 1 of them , and when the 2nd one comes in the form of army box , all i have to do is take out the 2 hero char?

And the sites are very helpful!

*Wait wait, So Hetman is the type of strider it is. Urod is it's name like a pet name? And im guessing Odin and Manon are the 2 pilots?


Found this pic, very good for comparing model sizes:

Orlanth wrote:

LunaHound wrote:K for anti armor , you said i should field Dragomirov Kollosus ? should i add Dragomira Hero with them? ( Whats the difference between the Dragomira model?
looks the same but just more expensive and er... more white paint o_o )

First I am learning myself, seek a second opinion on this, hopefully Idaho and others will chime in where we are getting it wrong and we will both learn.
Well yes. I suppose you can have your Lt Dragomira by buying another Dragomirov boxset instead and using two suits as Meganobz. Same price in cash.

If you check out the links given you in this thread you can get the same info I have:

AT-43 Forum
http://en-forum.at-43.com/index.php

AT-43 Army builder and general resource - very useful!!
http://rcommunity.nazgulworld.com/

Repeat link of the rules Duncan_Idaho posted above.
http://www.at-43.com/pdf_EN/AT43/AT-43_rules.pdf

Also visit the Rackham site itself and download the army card PDF fro each race. Though the data is incomplete. You get it all in the army builder program anyway.


Back to the Kollossi.... lets talk about them in more 40K terms-ish there are two anti armour options RPG Kollossi cost 425pts and fire Assault4 Accuracy2 S11 doing two wounds a hit. Dragomirov Kollossi cost 375pts have an RPG arm with assault 2 rockets as before and a gauss gun which is assault3 Accuracy 3 S7 causing one wound a hit. You dont get the full on anti tank firepower, but battlesuits can fire their guns seperately so all the RPG's can fire at one target and all the gauss at another. S7 looks good to slaughter infantry and lighter UNA battlesuits. None of the other Kolossi have anything like the same S for their guns.
Now with Lt Dragomirov you get the Gestalt special rule, I am not sure exactly what you get but you do get +2 accuracy with the squad. So now your Dragomirov are firing at ranges 4 and 5 respectively with their guns. This is now on a par with most of the UNA weapons, though the lasers still outrange you. The trouble is the new upgunned Dragomirov squad now costs 540pts for four suits.

I dont know if Lt Dragomira is a hero, he doesnt appear to have hero rules listed but I cannot take multiple squads with the Lt upgrade.

LunaHound wrote:
You said 2x Urod is it this thing? ( how do you include 2? )

You cannot have two Urod, though the At-43 forum talks of a special 'hero cloning' list that allows precisely that. I am ignoring this opportunity to cheese out, which is really just an exceuse to sell more hero models which are otherwise one per customer. In any case still buy two Urods, the reason is because Urod is just the fancy name for a particular Hetman, which is the class of vehicle. Unlike Vrachov and Timofiyeva who have stat cards for their own individual versions of regular vehicles and are sold seperately, the heroes and 'Urod' are sold together but the Hetman is not sold at all. You get the same problem with Defender Cobras for UNA, if you want a Defender Cobra you need to buy the Copperhead and Col Stark box.
You dont need to ever use Onin and Manon if you dont want to, you could just take the two hetman. remebmer as one is included in ther upcoming army Box you will only need to buy one Onin and manon/Urod set to get a second Hetman if you so wish, you could of course buy a third, and a fourth....as many as you like.

LunaHound wrote:
* And the RPG for the foot troops, are they not the same anti armor weapons the RPG kolosus use?

Yes, the Red Blok prefer a one size fits all for rockets, which fits the theme really. All are two shots at S11 except those on the ** striders which are S12 and fire three times. Accuracy varies, basic * infantry has acuracy 1, everything else except ther heavy striders has accuracy 2, kossaks et al have accuracy 3. So rockets are pretty much the same all over, its just the launcher thats different.

Many things are not totally correct with these posts… lest start with Dragomirov Kolossus

They come in three and you can add Lt Dragomira as a HERO, this means that you have in total 4 Dragomirov Kolossus, if you use ARC platoon the you may include a 5th dragomirov, this will make a very expensive but feared unit. The difference is not significant except that you get the card with the statistics in the hero box, besides that you can play without BUT make sure your opponent knows.

Dragomira have a few advantages… first she is a hero, so all hero rules apply, second, she adds her LP to the Company commander LP so you will have 3 extra LP per turn. and finally she is more resistant in combat, meaning that to be eliminated she need to receive two damages in ONE damage test. If your friends allow it, proxy as much as you wish, but be clear on that.

I will not compare to 40k because the roles are very different. All kolossi Tac Arms are SLOW…. I will say it again…. SLOW, they move 10 cm -4 inches (20cm the first turn), and with low accuracy they need to get close, they can be shot to pieces or at least grounded. A cunning enemy, will not let them reach his lines easily…. you have to use them with a) transport or b) drop point to be really successful

RPG Kollosi  anti AFV 100%, yes the can kill a type 2 AFV in one salvo but need to get REALLY close, less than 20 cm

Spetsnatz Kolossi  2 flamers Anti Infantry 100% , get them in a objective and look the enemy struggle to kick them out (grounded units still control objectives)

Strielitz Kolossi  Fantastic Anti Inf, shoot and ground inf units with the grenade launcher meanwhile you get close to toast them.

Dragomirov  IMHO the Kollosi by excellence, 50% Anti AFV 50% anti inf, in units of 5 and with a transport a big point sink but your opponent should be rightful killed

All kollossi have roles that are very good at it, just choose what you want, however in ANY case they WILL be out-shot by all the other TAC ARMS…. UNA Steel tacArms will kill them at long distance, Bane and Assault GOLIATHS too, Karmans K-“something” can squish them far easier, the COGS will not sweat to kill them… so you have to be very careful in deployment so they can actually kill something.

Multiple HEROES

Today ONLY one platoon can take multiple heroes, that’s the GenCol Platoon of the Red Blok… the cogs are able too, but nothing is released yet.

You can actually have 2 dragomirov tac arms squads each with Dragomira and 2 urods. It is possible but only in that platoon. If you think it is an excuse to sell more models, it is because you have not seen them in action. Being a redblok player myself, I have to say that it is the favorite list today.

One or two units of KRasny or RGP soldaty with Timofiyeva (2 interference + 2 disruption) or Vrachov (2 extra medics) and two 2 points SP self repairing URODS is a FEARSOME proposal for any enemy. Of course in other lists you can use 2 hetmans… still very spooky for others

LunaHound wrote:

UNA = long range , not accurage or hard hitting or tough. But can mark targets and snipe at safe distance (Tau?)
Red Blok = Short range assault weapons , tough AFV ( Eldars? )
Karman = Strong in both range and assault but few in numbers ( Space Marines? )
Therian = Good at sneaking and confusing enemies ... ( Protoss? )

Personally I will not agree, there is no direct comparison as you can have platoon formations that vary significantly the army list, the way and tactics of play.

UNA  General: IMHO they have medium to long range with fair number of units 5-8; the accuracy/damage is pretty balanced. The AFV are not so tough but they can out-shoot most others AFV

Union  they are not subjected to moral tests and are fairly Horde style army
Mind  heavy self repairing AFV army
CentCom  Elite infantry heavy
Morning star  Medics or Mechanics for “free”

Therians  Are lower in number but very good accuracy and damage, specialist ion both long and short range, tougher than UNA in armor but less in numbers. Special routines to make them work even better, suffer when they have low LP

Cyphers Therians workforce, balanced and “simple” too use
Warriors  Close Combat designed force
Web Striders  Tac Arms heavy Army and Routine-happy army
Babel  Cannot say as I lack experience

RedBlok  The strongest Armor so far, low accuracy in type 1 inf (short range) type 2 inf have medium range, different abilities interference, disruption and so on.

Frontline  AFV heavy army that can capture objectives
Supra  ELITE infantry heavy army
ARC horde infantry of Army
Gencol  Multiple heroes

Karmans  Slight strong armor in inf but very few and small units, very delicate when taking causalities. AFV are highly mobile but also VERY delicate. High rate of fire (+3 shoots per mini) but short to medium accuracy, they need to be close and be sure they will break one enemy unit before moving to the next unit

Libra  Infantry heavy army
Nova  Balanced army that attacks also enemy drills/routines
Flux  AFV heavy army
Arceo  no experience yet

So as you can see…. any army CAN be either ork style or marine style or whatever you want without feeling all armies are the same as in any case all the little tweaks of each army are not changed but you can configure your army to have a particular way of playing.

I Like to have options and many people here seem to think the Army BOx are good, I cocur but I like to have more, so I present my total minis, so if all played I can have between 4000 to 6000 depending o platoon formations

2x Urods
2x Hussars
1x Kossak
3x Molots
4x Sierps
1x NAkovalny

1x Krasny units with grenades Lauchers
3x RPG with Rocket Laucnhers
3x Dragonov units (2 with snipers 1 with AT gauss)
6x RPG Kollossi
6x Dragomirov Kollossi
3x Spetsntaz kollossi

2x Dragomira
2x Vrachov
2x Timofiyeva
2x Odin & Manon

My usual tactics imply using sierps in one or two units of 1-2 Sierps to ground Infantry and prevent them to reach objectives
AFVs are usually focus on Anti AFV actions (1-3 type 2 aFV depending of points -- any combination suitable urod/hetman/hussars or kossaks)
Tyxpe 3 inf for droping in the middle of the enemy and kick butt
and my own onfantry controlling objectives

They come in three and you can add Lt Dragomira as a HERO, this means that you have in total 4 Dragomirov Kolossus, if you use ARC platoon the you may include a 5th dragomirov, this will make a very expensive but feared unit. The difference is not significant except that you get the card with the statistics in the hero box, besides that you can play without BUT make sure your opponent knows.

Dragomira have a few advantages… first she is a hero, so all hero rules apply, second, she adds her LP to the Company commander LP so you will have 3 extra LP per turn. and finally she is more resistant in combat, meaning that to be eliminated she need to receive two damages in ONE damage test. If your friends allow it, proxy as much as you wish, but be clear on that.

Actually the weapon that hits her has to do two damage points at once. Which means that most of the times she can be killed only by type *** AFV.

I will not compare to 40k because the roles are very different. All kolossi Tac Arms are SLOW…. I will say it again…. SLOW, they move 10 cm -4 inches (20cm the first turn), and with low accuracy they need to get close, they can be shot to pieces or at least grounded. A cunning enemy, will not let them reach his lines easily…. you have to use them with a) transport or b) drop point to be really successful.

The upcoming transports can carry one unit of up to 8 miniatures. With an fived up Dragonov unit this makes a rather fast hard hitter.

Multiple HEROES

Today ONLY one platoon can take multiple heroes, that’s the GenCol Platoon of the Red Blok… the cogs are able too, but nothing is released yet.

You can actually have 2 dragomirov tac arms squads each with Dragomira and 2 urods. It is possible but only in that platoon. If you think it is an excuse to sell more models, it is because you have not seen them in action. Being a redblok player myself, I have to say that it is the favorite list today.

One or two units of KRasny or RGP soldaty with Timofiyeva (2 interference + 2 disruption) or Vrachov (2 extra medics) and two 2 points SP self repairing URODS is a FEARSOME proposal for any enemy. Of course in other lists you can use 2 hetmans… still very spooky for others

The army that uses multiple heroes is excellent at cloning soldiers hence the name GenCol. And since the Trauma hit the Red Blok much harder than the UNA they need good soldiers wherever they can get them. And you have to live with a disadvantage for being allowed to use clones.

Cogs are different, they are twice the size of humans and very expensive. You can have multiple heros in one unit, but only the highest generation one is leading the unit. If he gets killed, the nexthighest generation cog will take over. Cog units are small and costs rival AFV costs of other races. Also Cog do no have type ** AFV.

@units
The Frostbite rules extension allows you to use min.-units, i.e. units of 2-3 specialists. Which comes in quite handy if you have left over specialists. They are not that strong, but can cause quite some havoc and push up your number of units (units mean more LP) without having to pay many AP.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

Actually the weapon that hits her has to do two damage points at once. Which means that most of the times she can be killed only by type *** AFV.

The upcoming transports can carry one unit of up to 8 miniatures. With an fived up Dragonov unit this makes a rather fast hard hitter.

Cogs are different, they are twice the size of humans and very expensive. You can have multiple heros in one unit, but only the highest generation one is leading the unit. If he gets killed, the nexthighest generation cog will take over. Cog units are small and costs rival AFV costs of other races. Also Cog do no have type ** AFV.

@units
The Frostbite rules extension allows you to use min.-units, i.e. units of 2-3 specialists. Which comes in quite handy if you have left over specialists. They are not that strong, but can cause quite some havoc and push up your number of units (units mean more LP) without having to pay many AP.

Actually about Dragomira, a colleague of mine -Sgt Moirane- in the AT-43 german forum told me about those 2 damage per hit, last time I remember in the official AT-43 form was also a HEATED dicussion about it and IIRC it was not "1 shot for 2 damage" but "two hits in a dmage test" meaning that can be killed by 2 sniper shots in a test for example... maybe we should dig that up form the official forum...?

Yes 5 dragomirov in a transpor will mkae a VERY tough unit, however it would be arround 700-800 AP

i know about the cogs in the previws... still not released soI cannot comment more

2-3 specialists? WHERE frostbite? False, you can get 2-3 special weapons not specialists (EWS, Medics Mechanics)....

Dragomira answer about being eliminated:

http://en-forum.at-43.com/viewtopic.php?t=4725&highlight=dragomira

How important is Dragomiva and Dragomirov for me atm?

With my list can i just get 1 Urod and a few RPG kolosus instead?

LunaHound wrote:
How important is Dragomiva and Dragomirov for me atm?

With my list can i just get 1 Urod and a few RPG kolosus instead?

important? thats subjective.... remember that you create your army once you know the mission, so in X mission kollosi may not be the best, I LOVE kollossi and use it as much as possible (meaning only when the mission has drop points or the transport will be released) if you like it use them if not, try something else.

As i said when i play 3000 AP or more, i use 1-2 Dragomirov kollossi of 4 (incl Dragomira) plus 2 Urods and some other things... Overkill? cheesy? maybe, but I like it and other armies have also some combinations that are a pain, so no complains there.... my mates are very open to really tough lists, is not thatthe therians cannot use Tiamat and Babs 0, you know?

I did not really get your second question, could you please repeat it?

Wolfen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
How important is Dragomiva and Dragomirov for me atm?

With my list can i just get 1 Urod and a few RPG kolosus instead?

important? thats subjective.... remember that you create your army once you know the mission, so in X mission kollosi may not be the best, I LOVE kollossi and use it as much as possible (meaning only when the mission has drop points or the transport will be released) if you like it use them if not, try something else.

I did not really get your second question, could you please repeat it?

kk Atm , i have like little to none anti armor.

9 of the kollosus are Strielitz Kolossus
only 3 are RPG.

If im not mistaken Dragomirov's weapon are half anti armor , half anti infantry? (unless M-Gauss are anti armor too im not sure, just reading it online )
So instead of getting bunch of halfs, should i just get pure RPG kolossus?


*Edit: Im very sorry for asking so many question ( i promise i will include the books with my order )
How ever both me and Orlanth have NOT placed our orders yet and we seem to have same interest on same items ( running out now )

I want to make sure i can come up with a proper list and place the order before they are gone ><


*Also can these guys fit in additional attachments?

• 1 unit of 12 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing three grenade launchers, two medics and an officer
• 1 unit of 8 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing one grenade launcher, two mechanics and an officer
• 6 Dragonov Kommandos: elite infantry with one sniper rifle, an electronic warfare specialist, a medic and an officer

LunaHound wrote:

Wolfen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
How important is Dragomiva and Dragomirov for me atm?

With my list can i just get 1 Urod and a few RPG kolosus instead?

important? thats subjective.... remember that you create your army once you know the mission, so in X mission kollosi may not be the best, I LOVE kollossi and use it as much as possible (meaning only when the mission has drop points or the transport will be released) if you like it use them if not, try something else.

I did not really get your second question, could you please repeat it?

kk Atm , i have like little to none anti armor.

9 of the kollosus are Strielitz Kolossus
only 3 are RPG.

If im not mistaken Dragomirov's weapon are half anti armor , half anti infantry? (unless M-Gauss are anti armor too im not sure, just reading it online )
So instead of getting bunch of halfs, should i just get pure RPG kolossus?


*Edit: Im very sorry for asking so many question ( i promise i will include the books with my order )
How ever both me and Orlanth have NOT placed our orders yet and we seem to have same interest on same items ( running out now )

I want to make sure i can come up with a proper list and place the order before they are gone ><

Ok I will answer as good as i can.

For a range of 2000-3000 AP

3x Krasny/RPG full units (either RPG or Granades) --- Personally I like RPG
1 to 2 Urods
1 Hussars
2 sierps
1-3 Dragonov full units


You have the RPG kolossi... in this moment I dont really think you need more unless you want bigger games so Dragomirov are NOT necessary

with the list above you will have minimum 6 inf units and 3-5 AFV.... more than enough to fill any platoon style... more than that is up to you...

Actually about Dragomira, a colleague of mine -Sgt Moirane- in the AT-43 german forum told me about those 2 damage per hit, last time I remember in the official AT-43 form was also a HEATED dicussion about it and IIRC it was not "1 shot for 2 damage" but "two hits in a dmage test" meaning that can be killed by 2 sniper shots in a test for example... maybe we should dig that up form the official forum...?

First, I am part of the team that is responsible for the german market and translation and there are quite some strange things going on on the english forum with even officials contradicting each other, because of this I directly ask the team via telephone and go rather for the french and german version of the rules.

Following is directly from the rules:

"Players perform a damage test each time a fighter is hit by
a close combat attack, a projectile or by any other effect that
could possibly wound him."

pg 51, col 2 1st line of rules (no fluff)

and

page 67

"Each impact causes a Damage test (see p. 51).
Damage tests should be resolved separately. The losses are
removed immediately.
The management of the impacts is different for infantry units
and units of armored fighting vehicles.
Damage tests are resolved individually.
• If the target is an infantry unit, the player resolves the
damage test by rolling one die per impact. He then removes
the fighters eliminated starting with those closest to the leader
of the shooting unit. If two targets are within equal distance, the
player who resolved the shots chooses his victim."

The only "ruling" on the english forum ha been by a Mod, but offical rulings are only allowed by members of the team. Since above sections never have been changed and no official errata mentions a change I consider the original rules still valid.

Besides, we often have played Dragomira like this in over a hundred games and she gives the RB some much needed push without killing the balance. She ist hard to kill, but her team can be killed much easier and alone she is not that powerful.

i know about the cogs in the previws... still not released soI cannot comment more

Since I translate the book right now you can consider it as being directly from the source.

2-3 specialists? WHERE frostbite? False, you can get 2-3 special weapons not specialists (EWS, Medics Mechanics)....

Sorry, wrong wording, of course I wanted to write weapons specialists.

in my big order I got a attachment boxset just to get a Nucleus Gun support team. Nice big long range gun. Team of three for 175pts, sounds like a steal.

This also looks like a nice idea with sniper teams, take pairs of Dragonov or Wing trooper snipers and lurk them at the rear taking pot shots at ranges beyond which it is not worth trying to shoot back.

I could field a Golem flamer support team but three golems on their own close in wont last, yes.

Do you agree with this thinking.?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

Actually about Dragomira, a colleague of mine -Sgt Moirane- in the AT-43 german forum told me about those 2 damage per hit, last time I remember in the official AT-43 form was also a HEATED dicussion about it and IIRC it was not "1 shot for 2 damage" but "two hits in a dmage test" meaning that can be killed by 2 sniper shots in a test for example... maybe we should dig that up form the official forum...?

First, I am part of the team that is responsible for the german market and translation and there are quite some strange things going on on the english forum with even officials contradicting each other, because of this I directly ask the team via telephone and go rather for the french and german version of the rules.

Following is directly from the rules:

"Players perform a damage test each time a fighter is hit by
a close combat attack, a projectile or by any other effect that
could possibly wound him."

pg 51, col 2 1st line of rules (no fluff)

and

page 67

"Each impact causes a Damage test (see p. 51).
Damage tests should be resolved separately. The losses are
removed immediately.
The management of the impacts is different for infantry units
and units of armored fighting vehicles.
Damage tests are resolved individually.
• If the target is an infantry unit, the player resolves the
damage test by rolling one die per impact. He then removes
the fighters eliminated starting with those closest to the leader
of the shooting unit. If two targets are within equal distance, the
player who resolved the shots chooses his victim."

The only "ruling" on the english forum ha been by a Mod, but offical rulings are only allowed by members of the team. Since above sections never have been changed and no official errata mentions a change I consider the original rules still valid.

Besides, we often have played Dragomira like this in over a hundred games and she gives the RB some much needed push without killing the balance. She ist hard to kill, but her team can be killed much easier and alone she is not that powerful.

i know about the cogs in the previws... still not released soI cannot comment more

Since I translate the book right now you can consider it as being directly from the source.

2-3 specialists? WHERE frostbite? False, you can get 2-3 special weapons not specialists (EWS, Medics Mechanics)....

Sorry, wrong wording, of course I wanted to write weapons specialists.

I am no insider, but aAFAIK aftermath is the closest link to RE, I think i will try to get an official ruling from them in the official forum just to clarify once and for all...

The same with cogs... have not read the AB, have no idea exceptwhat it is in the previews...

Orlanth wrote:in my big order I got a attachment boxset just to get a Nucleus Gun support team. Nice big long range gun. Team of three for 175pts, sounds like a steal.

This also looks like a nice idea with sniper teams, take pairs of Dragonov or Wing trooper snipers and lurk them at the rear taking pot shots at ranges beyond which it is not worth trying to shoot back.

I could field a Golem flamer support team but three golems on their own close in wont last, yes.

Do you agree with this thinking.?

Yes it is good... thinking... however do not underestimate the flamer golems as you can buy optical cammo (stealth).... so only UNA and RB have tools to see them.... but hey! if they are shooting to 3 guys they are not shooting to something more important

I am no insider, but aAFAIK aftermath is the closest link to RE, I think i will try to get an official ruling from them in the official forum just to clarify once and for all...

There are some people closer to the source on the forum, e.g. JBLK, Terrier and some Sentinels.

But I would also appreciate an official ruling. The discussions in the other rules subforum sometimes are miles away from what officially is ruled.

The same with cogs... have not read the AB, have no idea exceptwhat it is in the previews...

There have been some excerpts from the book in the French magazin Ravage, much more than what we got over the net. If you want I can send you a scan. Of course, I am only talking about stuff that has otherwise been published.

Wolfen wrote:

Orlanth wrote:in my big order I got a attachment boxset just to get a Nucleus Gun support team. Nice big long range gun. Team of three for 175pts, sounds like a steal.

This also looks like a nice idea with sniper teams, take pairs of Dragonov or Wing trooper snipers and lurk them at the rear taking pot shots at ranges beyond which it is not worth trying to shoot back.

I could field a Golem flamer support team but three golems on their own close in wont last, yes.

Do you agree with this thinking.?

Yes it is good... thinking... however do not underestimate the flamer golems as you can buy optical cammo (stealth).... so only UNA and RB have tools to see them.... but hey! if they are shooting to 3 guys they are not shooting to something more important

A questionn on support teams, as they are * or ** infantry when do you need to take morale tests? Normally for lighter infantry to start to take morale tests at 3 models or fewer.

Also I was advised above to take fire toads in threes to avoid morale tests for being reduced to one strider, however the rules I see read that you only need test if the entire unit is imobilised.

Frostbite special units are handled like type *** infantry > Only if reduced to 1

Also I was advised above to take fire toads in threes to avoid morale tests for being reduced to one strider, however the rules I see read that you only need test if the entire unit is imobilised.

Partly true, your excerpt refers to what happens while the attacked unit in question activates.

When the attacking unit activates and kills one toad or forces a pilot to bail out a moral check is also needed..

Wait wait ,

For death dealer tac arms , are they fieldable in normal games? ( or do i need to get operation frostbite? )

can these guys fit in additional attachments? ( thus expanding into new units if attached? or are they already maxed out? )

• 1 unit of 12 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing three grenade launchers, two medics and an officer
• 1 unit of 8 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing one grenade launcher, two mechanics and an officer
• 6 Dragonov Kommandos: elite infantry with one sniper rifle, an electronic warfare specialist, a medic and an officer

thanks!

Easy At-43 allows you to add Death Dealers to any Tac Arm available slot, also there is no mention of Death Dealer pattern platoons anywhere other than on the download page.
besides while DeathDealers are nice tghe platoon pattern allows no other *** infantry, and no * or *** striders and no transports, it is a mierable platoon pattern, you mis out on so much being effectively restricted exclusively to Death Dealers, Defenders, and basic Troopers.

Now if you could have a single Death Dealer platoon in a different company that would be another matter as I am having troubles getting a platoon org I liike that allows a strider heavy list. I actually find the default list is best for my purposes in all the experimental lists I have drawn.

How is your order going Orlanth? I noticed something extremely agitating when i was checking the shipping...

The original shipping was $33 , with the Democle boxes it bumped the shipping to $59!!!

Basically they are charging $9 S&H per ini set.

Grrr what to do?

I was considering getting into this game and was interested in the Karmans or Therians...probably both to get someone to play me.

Anyway, what would I need to pick up to have decent starter armies for the Karmans & Therians?

Therian benefits from Initiation set.

$30 for 2 armies + rule book + scenaries.

Orlanth wrote:

Wolfen wrote:

Orlanth wrote:in my big order I got a attachment boxset just to get a Nucleus Gun support team. Nice big long range gun. Team of three for 175pts, sounds like a steal.

This also looks like a nice idea with sniper teams, take pairs of Dragonov or Wing trooper snipers and lurk them at the rear taking pot shots at ranges beyond which it is not worth trying to shoot back.

I could field a Golem flamer support team but three golems on their own close in wont last, yes.

Do you agree with this thinking.?

Yes it is good... thinking... however do not underestimate the flamer golems as you can buy optical cammo (stealth).... so only UNA and RB have tools to see them.... but hey! if they are shooting to 3 guys they are not shooting to something more important

A questionn on support teams, as they are * or ** infantry when do you need to take morale tests? Normally for lighter infantry to start to take morale tests at 3 models or fewer.

Also I was advised above to take fire toads in threes to avoid morale tests for being reduced to one strider, however the rules I see read that you only need test if the entire unit is imobilised.

support units only test moral once they reach 1 survivor (i.e.fter killing two)

LunaHound wrote:Wait wait ,

For death dealer tac arms , are they fieldable in normal games? ( or do i need to get operation frostbite? )

can these guys fit in additional attachments? ( thus expanding into new units if attached? or are they already maxed out? )

• 1 unit of 12 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing three grenade launchers, two medics and an officer
• 1 unit of 8 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing one grenade launcher, two mechanics and an officer
• 6 Dragonov Kommandos: elite infantry with one sniper rifle, an electronic warfare specialist, a medic and an officer

thanks!

Death dealers are used as normal, no problema!

Yes all untis of the box sets can have additional attachements(well except the 12 Krasny as they are already at maximum)

Bat Manuel wrote:I was considering getting into this game and was interested in the Karmans or Therians...probably both to get someone to play me.

Anyway, what would I need to pick up to have decent starter armies for the Karmans & Therians?

i dont play Karmans but I do play therians.... first and foremost get the Army books AND frostbite

afterwards target to 2000 AP

1-3 full units of infantry * or **
1-2 units of infantry ***
1-2 AFVs *
1-2 AFV **
1 AFV ***

this will give you a FULL range to play

@ Wolfen how do we know whats their maximum amount? and how do we now how many attachment we can fill?

I looked at the number and it says (-)

Also the unit seem to be usually 8 mini ,and attachment is 6, would that make it 2 left over?

LunaHound wrote:@ Wolfen how do we know whats their maximum amount? and how do we now how many attachment we can fill?

I looked at the number and it says (-)

No, you are mistaken in that... let me explain

ALL units have minimum and maximum sizes defined by the Army in itself (in the Army books)
Red blok units:

infantry * start at 9 (total) including 1 special weapon 2 specialist (Mech or Medic) and 0-1 officer --> minimum size
infantry * 12 (total) including 3 special weapon 2 specialist (Mech or Medic) and 0-1 officer --> maximum size
infantry ** start at 6 (total) including 1 special weapon 2 specialist (Mech or Medic) and 0-1 officer --> minimum size
infantry ** 9 (total) including 3 special weapon 2 specialist (EWS or Medic) and 0-1 officer --> maximum size

Officer MAY add extra grunts to the unit.... but sargets are not so important sothey do not add... colonels add 3-4 IIRC but he cost more of course... the pic yopu show is of aSeargent that do no give any extra grunts...

A "normal" unit box, will gave you the minimum size unit with 1 special weapons, no officers and no specialists
The attachement boxes will give you more special weapons (2 types) and specialists, and 1 officer

Ooh... thats confusing ><

1)You said infantry start at 9 total ( but it seem to be sold at 8 per box? )

2)So basically every * or ** can only attach 3 out of the 6 choices in the attachment box?

3) The battle suits usually have 2 weapons ,and for the ones with same weapons it shows xxx [1] xxx [2]


But why does steel tac arms have only 1 despite 2 are mounted? Is it for balance issues so a single suit wont have too many 14 penetration weapons?
*edit hmm i see it have a re roll ... guess its like twin linked o_O

ALL units have minimum and maximum sizes defined by the Army in itself (in the Army books)
Red blok units:

infantry * start at 9 (total) including 1 special weapon 2 specialist (Mech or Medic) and 0-1 officer --> minimum size
infantry * 12 (total) including 3 special weapon 2 specialist (Mech or Medic) and 0-1 officer --> maximum size
infantry ** start at 6 (total) including 1 special weapon 2 specialist (Mech or Medic) and 0-1 officer --> minimum size
infantry ** 9 (total) including 3 special weapon 2 specialist (EWS or Medic) and 0-1 officer --> maximum size

Officer MAY add extra grunts to the unit.... but sargets are not so important sothey do not add... colonels add 3-4 IIRC but he cost more of course... the pic yopu show is of aSeargent that do no give any extra grunts...

A "normal" unit box, will gave you the minimum size unit with 1 special weapons, no officers and no specialists
The attachement boxes will give you more special weapons (2 types) and specialists, and 1 officer

You forgot to mention that a * does not translate into a certain troop strength. In this case you are right but with ather units or races it might be different. Only what´s written in the AB counts.

But why does steel tac arms have only 1 despite 2 are mounted? Is it for balance issues so a single suit wont have too many 14 penetration weapons?
*edit hmm i see it have a re roll ... guess its like twin linked o_O

Unfortunately Rackham was not completely sure how to represent weapons on the card in the beginning, Steels are proof to that. Normally you can use this formula: Weapons on miniature have precedence over cards (that's what most of the time applies to the miniatures) and profile in AB has precedence over miniature (there are some apes and one walker where they changed the profile after them going into production. But the profile in the AB is right).

Hmm...

k lets see if i got this right ( sorry i was confused between special weapon / specialist earlier )

* Infantry is 9min , 12 max. Have 3 slots for (2 special weapon , and 1 specialist? ) ( so basically 1 attachment have enough models to split into 2 normal units? )

**Infantry is 6 min , 9 max, Same upgrade as above?

Also what is AB? does that mean steel tac arm is actually: Laser Gun [1] Laser Gun [2] ?

Also , i dont think im reading this wrong but.... Kollosus ( an infantry ) is tougher than a fire toad strider? (the card doesnt show structure points
is that what im missing? )

LunaHound wrote:Hmm...

k lets see if i got this right ( sorry i was confused between special weapon / specialist earlier )

* Infantry is 9min , 12 max. Have 3 slots for (2 special weapon , and 1 specialist? ) ( so basically 1 attachment have enough models to split into 2 normal units? )

**Infantry is 6 min , 9 max, Same upgrade as above?

Also what is AB? does that mean steel tac arm is actually: Laser Gun [1] Laser Gun [2] ?

Also , i dont think im reading this wrong but.... Kollosus ( an infantry ) is tougher than a fire toad strider? (the card doesnt show structure points
is that what im missing? )

The example BEFORE only applies to RED BLOK--- UNA, Therians and Karmans have their own limitations in terms of unit sizes --> so please refer to the appropiates Army books

and NO there are no slots.... when you "buy" a unit you need to decide it size (minimum maximum number of fighters) then if it is minimum you can only have 1 special weapon, if it maximum you can have three (again this is only for red blok and therians --una and karmans can only have 2), you can exchange 2 normal fighters for specialiest (medics mechanics etc) without extra cost, in terms of fighter they are the same as normal grunts... finally you decide if you want an officer and pay the appriopiate AP

AB = Army book .... "Codex" for those uninitiated

REd blok AFV and Kollossi as per the fluff have the toughest type of Armor, Structure points are only based on size not the armor value.... kolossi are infantry for all purposes

Finally a brief description of stars

Infantry * --> regular troop, non elite grutnts
infantry ** --> elite grunts
infantry *** --> Tactical armors (UNA tacArms, Red Blok Kolossi kollosi, Karmans K´s and Therians Goliaths)

So EXAMPLE FOR RED BLOK only

the platoon patter chosen is as follows

infantry *(!)
Infantry */**
Infantry **/***
AFV */**
AFV **/***

the (!) means that it’s a compulsory choice

SO I start by buying a type * infantry unit for the red blok, we have two options Krasny and RPG soldat

I choose Krasny so I can buy them at minimum or maximum size.

Krasny Maximum : 9 soldiers including 1 special weapon 0-2 specialist 0-1 officer  100 AP (don’t remember exact values so don’t get angry if they are wrong)

Krasny Maximum : 12 soldiers including 3 special weapon 0-2 specialist 0-1 officer  250 AP (don’t remember exact values so don’t get angry if they are wrong)

Krasny have 2 special weapons – Grenade Launchers or RPG launchers – the “standard Krasny have the Grenade Launcher included in the profile but if you want RPG you need to pay extra AP to change ALL special weapons in a unit (i.e. +25 AP)

Then you choose officer if you want Seargent +10AP, Master Searget +15AP, Lt. +30AP Captain +45 AP and Colonel +60AP

I choose a colonel so I can add 3 or 4 more grunts (common soldiers not specialists not special weapons -- just cannon fodder) for extra X points per soldier

So in the end my first unit will be

Maximum size Krasny with 3 RPG + Colonel 2 specialist and 2 extra grunts – total cost will be 250 AP (for the normal unit) + 25 (for changing the Grenades Launcher to RPG) + 60 AP for the Colonel + 2 extra grunts (lets say 20 points per grunt)= 375 AP

Thank you so much Wolfen Duncan and Orlanth.

I have finished my order list , just waiting on the reply email on why im charged $60 S&H and if they could do something about that ( i know USA is free shipping so its abit not fair for me! )

LunaHound wrote:
How is your order going Orlanth? I noticed something extremely agitating when i was checking the shipping...

The original shipping was $33 , with the Democle boxes it bumped the shipping to $59!!!

Basically they are charging $9 S&H per ini set.

Grrr what to do?

Ok.

Option 1.

Get someone you know in the USA to take the delivery depackage and resend, shipping and billing addresses need not be identical. This is what I did.

Option 2.

Get the seller to depackage for you, Minitures Market will do this on request and charge 50c-$1 per boxset depackaged according to the email sent me.

Depackaging is really important because AT-43 is grossly overpackaged, never is this more evident than with Damocles Initiation boxsets.



This boxset comes with a liftable magnetised lid and a window to see the contents.


First layer of packaging to stiffen the near empty box.


The well spaced out contents. I wonder if they keep to 2.5cm unit coherency?


Box accessories.


All that remains of a huge box.

Yes AT-43 must look good on the shelves, but these boxes are a real bugger to ship and because they have so little in them for the size it is counterproductive. Expectation on the outside doesnt meet expectation on the inside and the result is a contrary to what a loss leader is supposed to be.

Rackham has learned this lesson by moving towards Army boxes relying more on known content than gloss.

Now I have bought three Inititation boxsets, and am budgeting to get a fourth and looking at getting even a fifth, but all nicely depackaged.

Woot orlanth , maybe you have created a path for me after your request for repackaging (since you asked recently it should be fresh in their memory )

From what im seeing, 3 democle set = 1 shipment box ( yes i kept the large Rhackam boxes lol ) so in a way it does add up to $60. ( $31 is the other stuff )

Repacking a democle set will only cost $1 each? If thats true it'll save lots.


*Magnetized lid? wow o_o they sure are very thorough for their products.

LunaHound wrote:
Ooh... thats confusing ><

1)You said infantry start at 9 total ( but it seem to be sold at 8 per box? )

You are right it is 8 NOT 9 minimum for * Red Blok and * UNA infantry. Maximum 12.
Minimum 6 maximum 9 for ** infantry.

LunaHound wrote:
2)So basically every * or ** can only attach 3 out of the 6 choices in the attachment box?

Yes, the rest is for swaps, just because you have fcilled a squad doesnt mean you want the exact same gear next time. Most units have different heavy weapons they can add in. you only gert one heavy weapon, and no swaps in the unit box, the attachment normally sells bonus weapons to fill out or swap over to another weapon type, though this depends.
Golem attachment boxsets contain enough heavy weapons to take a choice of units of three heave weapons with the full squad. human boxsets have specialists such as medics to account for and some have three weapons options and so only supply one of each etc. Karmans split the attachment boxsets into two sets each containing four apes and two weapons of one weapon type and are in a way a set upgrade.
You will need to go to the websites and look what is in the boxes you might need severaol attachment boxes to fit what you want, or one attachment box might have just the right tools to help several units, and you can always attempt to buy bits.
Please take a good look at what you are buying, attachment boxsets are shown on Raxkham warstore and Minitures market look at the compositions carefully and work out for yourself what you need. Use the Easy AT-43 program for this.

LunaHound wrote:Woot orlanth , maybe you have created a path for me after your request for repackaging (since you asked recently it should be fresh in their memory )

I found out during an enquiry after I placed my order. Miniatures market does this on request for international orders and it is a fairly common request that they have a policy for handling it. As for the nice guy image Neal at Warstore has possibly he will also do same, but no guarantees.

K so in the army box of:
• 1 unit of 12 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing three grenade launchers, two medics and an officer
• 1 unit of 8 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing one grenade launcher, two mechanics and an officer ( 2 more heavy weapon can be added here? )

LunaHound wrote:
K so in the army box of:
• 1 unit of 12 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing three grenade launchers, two medics and an officer
• 1 unit of 8 Krasnye Soldaty: regular infantry containing one grenade launcher, two mechanics and an officer ( 2 more heavy weapon can be added here? )

in the first option you can exchange the 3 grenades launcher with RPG launchers
In the second one you can add 2 more Granade launchers AND 2 more grunts...

You can exchange 1 mechanic and 1 medic in a single units

Hmm im testing the Easy AT-43 , and the numbers are very interesting.

Urod vs fire toad (25% target destroyed)

3 RPG kollosus vs fire toad (43%)

If got to warn you:

EasyAT is not perfect and some things are hard to implement with the Easy-engine. Whenever you create a list, check back with the AB to make sure that your list is in line with it. There are some rare instances where EasyAT produces incorrect lists.

Thanks Duncan !

Im just playing with it for the following:

-Good instant stats without flipping through cards.
-Makes me understand abit more about the weapon options before my army book arrives.
-Realizing how small the armies are at 2000 points... cant fit anything in!

How large are the usual games? seems like even at 2000 for the Easy at-43 program it can only fit a few units.

Here are some list i come up with :

1995: 1st try

Platoon 1
- Defender Snake
- Defender Snake
- Copperhead (+ Colonel G. Stark)
- 3 Death Dealer TacArms (+ Lieutenant G. Epstone)
- 3 Death Dealer TacArms

2000 : 2nd try

Platoon 1
- 1 Fire Toad
- 3 Death Dealer TacArms
- 3 Death Dealer TacArms
- 1 Fire Toad
- Defender Cobra
Platoon 2
- Defender Cobra
- 3 Death Dealer TacArms

LunaHound wrote:

How large are the usual games? seems like even at 2000 for the Easy at-43 program it can only fit a few units.

Here are some list i come up with :

1995: 1st try

Platoon 1
- Defender Snake
- Defender Snake
- Copperhead (+ Colonel G. Stark)
- 3 Death Dealer TacArms (+ Lieutenant G. Epstone)
- 3 Death Dealer TacArms

2000 : 2nd try

Platoon 1
- 1 Fire Toad
- 3 Death Dealer TacArms
- 3 Death Dealer TacArms
- 1 Fire Toad
- Defender Cobra
Platoon 2
- Defender Cobra
- 3 Death Dealer TacArms

Qhich platoon (faction) are you using? Generic, Mind, centCom?

Remember, only troops can control objectives (with a few exceptions) too much death dealers, killed fairly easily ---try more combinations

Example

Union
Advantage:
All infantry units get the ability "Nerves of steel". The fighters of these units never need to roll Morale tests.
Disadvantage:
Each combat drill costs 2 LP.

Assault
- 12 Star Troopers (Sergeant, 2 Missile Launcher)
- 2 Fire Toad (+ Sergeant A. Borz)
- Copperhead (+ Colonel G. Stark)

REserve
- 9 Steel Troopers (Sergeant, 2 Laser Gun)
- 3 Steel TacArms (Sergeant)

2500pts appears to be the usual size for a game, the limit is customary and probably largely based on the cost of collecting miniatures.

However since the firesale a lot of 5000pt battle reports are appearing on the forums. As players used to such things as apocalypse games with titans join in there could be a growing hunger for larger games.

I am already envisioning my hulking Therian horde with a swarm of golems backed up by Wraith Golgoths and two massive Baal Golgoths.

You can idea how BIG this game is yet. I saw a size comparison, the Steel troopers are similar size to marines, Tac Arms are just a little smaller than terminators, but a lot less bulky. As for the striders I thought they might be Dreadnought size, no they are not, onkly the smaller ones are....

Stuff the descriptions, here are some pictures courtesy of weetoysoldiers.com



















A light strider towering over a Hellhound




Here is the best one


so if a Wraith Golgoth is that big....

How big is the Baal?


2000pt lists like the one you made appear small but are or par with Warmachine army sizes. The lists i am buying for are 5000pts plus, and growing alarmingly. I was after 5k points now I am looking at 7k or even 8k just to get all the toys in. If you check the forums this is becoming more common and will only continue to do so once the Red Blok army comes out and people start spamming commie hordes with multiple boxsets for about as much as it takes to buy a 1500pt Space Marine army and far less than to collect Imperial Guard.

I'll help contribute! more size comparisons

Ok, I will have to wait until I order before I get the Red Blok army book, and am hearing about the special rules the * striders have.
I am interested in learning more and must kniow before the order, not after getting the Army Book to maske best use of ther information.


1. Does the Nokavalny have a special ability? If not why is it the same price as the others.


2. How do Disruption, Loudspeakers and Motion Sensors work?


3. Can Sgt Timofiyeva be given a Sierp or Molot of Zveizda. People are talking about the benefits of using her with Sierps and I am getting confused because I thought she could only ride a Nokavalny.

1. Does the Nokavalny have a special ability? If not why is it the same price as the others.

No special abilities, but two nice 3-shot weapons with a range of 4. Kozni (Tymo's Nakovalny, on the other hand has two special abilities that steal LP from the enemies and allows you to change the activation order of your opponent).

2. How do Disruption, Loudspeakers and Motion Sensors work?

Every Disruption unit takes away 1 LP from all enemies present on the battlefield, i.e. 3 Sierps = 3 LP less for all your opponents.
LS just counters Dragonov Electronic warfare specialists and Tymos special abilities.
Motion Sensor disables Stealth abilities.

3. Can Sgt Timofiyeva be given a Sierp or Molot of Zveizda. People are talking about the benefits of using her with Sierps and I am getting confused because I thought she could only ride a Nokavalny.

Normally she just can get a Nako, everything else is simply "house rules".

Quick question rar!

What does jammers do? is that like disruption?

Jammers do hit like normal weapons but just need a 2+ or 3+ to inflict damage.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Jammers do hit like normal weapons but just need a 2+ or 3+ to inflict damage.

noooooo!!!!!!

Too late >< already pressed order button a few hours ago without them . ( was thinking of getting the karman with jammer i love how they look )


Shipping/Handling $ 56.50


ow ><;;;;;;;

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

1. Does the Nokavalny have a special ability? If not why is it the same price as the others.

No special abilities, but two nice 3-shot weapons with a range of 4. Kozni (Tymo's Nakovalny, on the other hand has two special abilities that steal LP from the enemies and allows you to change the activation order of your opponent).

As even Frontline have limited slots available for striders is there any point of using a Nakovalny at all? In all the lists I am looking at I need every strider slot available for other stuff and any afford a strider slot just to give a lift to blondes.

Or to rephrase the question is there a downside to using Tymo on her own at the back with an infantry squad? Is Kozni plus Krasny Soldaty the same price as Nakovalny plus equal squad of Krasny Soldaty with Tymo?

LunaHound wrote:

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Jammers do hit like normal weapons but just need a 2+ or 3+ to inflict damage.

noooooo!!!!!!

Too late >< already pressed order button a few hours ago without them . ( was thinking of getting the karman with jammer i love how they look )


Shipping/Handling $ 56.50


ow ><;;;;;;;

Hmm I missed out on a few bits in my first order.

Which army have you missed out with Jammers on?

I cannot see how you can order monkeys without running accross jammers so I suspect you left out Jam TacArms if sodont worry too much, they are colourful but you have other tools for the job. And I am repeatedly told Steel TacArms are better.

LunaHound wrote:
Quick question rar!

What does jammers do? is that like disruption?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Jammers do hit like normal weapons but just need a 2+ or 3+ to inflict damage.

Lets add to that.

Jammers are EW (Electronic Warfare) weapons, to some extent they exist today and are used to scramble missiles. in AT-43 the technology is perfected and they do damasge to vehicles by frying circuitry, as people and we loosely include Therians here are not run on circuitry they are immune to damage. Remember The Matrix when Morpheus explains to Neo "EMP, Electro Magnetic Pulse the only weapon we have against the machines" EMP is the 'nuke' version a jammer is a beam of EMP energy, but essentially the same thing.

These weapons will ruin even a Dotch Yaga but has no effect on an infantryman even if you want it to and no matter how many times you try.

Heros can always be added to units, i.e. Tymo and a unit of Nakovalny can have the same slot > 1 unit > 3 Nakos+ Tymo and Kozni.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Heros can always be added to units, i.e. Tymo and a unit of Nakovalny can have the same slot > 1 unit > 3 Nakos+ Tymo and Kozni.

Ok Duncan_Idaho as a Sentinel you might want to encourage me to buy in, but why in honesty would I want four of a walker its probably not worth taking one of?

Or to re-issue the question is there a downside to using Tymo on her own at the back with an infantry squad? Is Kozni plus Krasny Soldaty the same price as Nakovalny plus equal squad of Krasny Soldaty with Tymo?

I am going to fill my vehicle slots anyway, I just need help as to what. I lijke Nakovalny models and might buy them and some Sierps anyway, whether they stay what they are or get turned into zviezdas is another matter.
I noticed that the Zviezda also has longer range gauss guns than a Nakovalny, have Nakovalny been given an accuracy boost as a result or are they still languishing at 4. The stealth negating seems very useful too, though not quite as useful as LP stripping sounds.

A Zviezda has only one Gauss Gun and one Mortar, while a Nakovalny has two Gauss Guns. With regard to AFV a unit of Nakovalny is better at killing them. Nakovalny is the Fire Toad of the Red Blok.

A lone Tymo, even with support from infantry is easier to kill. An often used tactic is to have a unit of Nakos advance while a unit of infantry (+mechanics) advances behind them. With 4 Nakos the enemy does not get VP for killings that easily even when he manages to kill one Nako. All type * AFV do have their missions where they shine and missions where they are not so good. Since AT is driven mainly by its missions it depends on which missions you are going to play.

Now I am looking at the At-43 furom a lot and repeatedly seeing how whwen asked about imblanced units the usual asnswer is to look at the scenario and its 'all situational'.

When that is essentially true about anything where movement and cover are factors it is no real excuse and appears to me at least to be ther At-43 variant of "use tactics". After all if a situation can level two imbalanced units and the situation was reverseed that natuirally superior unit/army would have an easier job of defeating the poorly balanced one.

So my next point is how does Red Blok cope on the level playing field, with terrain to reduce some field of fire assumed.

The Nakovlany was just put to me as a Fire Toad equivalent, in a make do sense perhaps it is, but six Acc4 Pen7 shots is a lot different from two 'twin linked' Acc8 Pen14 shots. Even if we assume the Red Blok can close without getting shot and level the range the Nakovalny is firing at range 4 requiring a 4+ to hit and 5+ to kill a Tac/Arm or Goliath, and 6+ to damage a Fire Toad or Hekat. It cant hurt a ** strider. unless you use some of the rare weapons that Red Blok cannot easily take in numbers, Hetman cannon and Hussar locked shots (which only hit on a 4+) you are relying on getting very close with rockets. Now rocketsd will admittedly screw over anything UNA, even the Fire Crawler will be hurt on a 5+, everything else 4+ or better. But the Pen14 lasers do same back and they star sooner and rarely miss.

Ok, what gives. Turning the situation and looking at the scenario is not a good excuse, as borth sides can do that. That is for the player to take advantage of not to level poor balance - or completely tople an unmatched opponent.

So faer I have seen few invisible advantages to Red Blok. Armour is ppparently not one of them, as everyone else has anti armour weapons far nastier than the Pen12 that the bulk of Red Blok firepower plateaus at. There is an awful amount of Pen14 and Pen15 weapons about.
So far I noticed that Red Blok can likely out LP the opponent by having cheap units, but again this only applies to light infantry, Red Blok vehicles are often more expensive - but no better than their adversaries. More to the point they can strip LP with heroes and certain units, but that means spamming the same walker over and over.
What else is there to balance Red Blok, I get the impression I am missing sometyhing, and its not just 'use tactics'.

RB is the army that requieres the most tactical thinking ofd a gamer.

There are several pros to RB:

- Dragonov Snipers (especially deadly if deployed as mitliple mini-units)

- Armour. In most games RBs stronger armour keeps the AFV from being annihilated. You might need to repair them, but in a comparable situation your enemy does not fare as good.

- Kolossus. Slow, but good at guarding mission points, get them in by using speed-up or call them in as reinforcement, which allows you to place them much closer to the enemy lines.

- Electronical Warfare: Keep stealing LP from your enemy.

You might need to get close, but RB really is unstoppable once they are in CC. Make use of the scenery and force your opponent to react instead of you being the one who reacts. Use your special abillities like Tymos ability to rearrange the order of cards of your opponent.

The learning curve is steep with RB, but every victory you earn by hard work and you can be proud of it.

Don´t rely too much on mathematics, use your psychological advantages. Your enemy hates flamers and snipers, cause they hurt him bad once the hit. Use it against him.

Thanks for that.

Some things I was looking at.

Dragonov squads with ATGauss. - Really the exception in the army list as they have a high power accurate weapon. Twin linked accuracy 7 power 14 gun, but how does it play. If I am relying on Dragonov for ranged anti tank will it truly work, they are slow and still infantry. Do they in fact just get picked on?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
- Dragonov Snipers (especially deadly if deployed as mitliple mini-units)

I had already seen that one, three snipers for 125pts is a steal. Its also a cheap unit so I can afford to take a few to fill up platoons and unlock fresh platoons for the prime slots.
I take it ATGauss teams wont work as well, because accuracy 7 means they have to get that much closer and are too easy to pick off as a result.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
- Armour. In most games RBs stronger armour keeps the AFV from being annihilated. You might need to repair them, but in a comparable situation your enemy does not fare as good.

This is what worries me, all other armies have massed power 13 and 14 guns in infantry and vehicles alike. They hit Red Blok armour harder than rockets hit theirs. Are the tanks, *** infantry really any more survivable. admittedly UNA on the lower end of the armour stakes have problems that you can wound their TacArms on a 6 with a basic rifle, but apart from that there appears to be little relevant difference.
How do Red Blok capitalise on the extra point or two of armour they get?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
- Electronical Warfare: Keep stealing LP from your enemy.

Does the Dragonov specialist have this ability?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
You might need to get close, but RB really is unstoppable once they are in CC. Make use of the scenery and force your opponent to react instead of you being the one who reacts. Use your special abillities like Tymos ability to rearrange the order of cards of your opponent.

Ok this is another bit I dont understand. Therians have claws and gun or claws and claws on each infantry. Karmans are gorillas in power armour. UNA are fairly wimpy but at leaat have some close combat specialists. I must be missing something, why would a Red Blok army want to assault anyone? Other than a heavy strider stomping on infantry I dont see whats in it for them.



Don´t rely too much on mathematics, use your psychological advantages. Your enemy hates flamers and snipers, cause they hurt him bad once the hit. Use it against him.

More questions on Red Blok:

Extant questions.

1. capitalising on Red Blok armour.
This is what worries me, all other armies have massed power 13 and 14 guns in infantry and vehicles alike. They hit Red Blok armour harder than rockets hit theirs. Are the tanks, *** infantry really any more survivable. admittedly UNA on the lower end of the armour stakes have problems that you can wound their TacArms on a 6 with a basic rifle, but apart from that there appears to be little relevant difference.
How do Red Blok capitalise on the extra point or two of armour they get?


2. Red Blok as an assault army.
Ok this is another bit I dont understand. Therians have claws and gun or claws and claws on each infantry. Karmans are gorillas in power armour. UNA are fairly wimpy but at leaat have some close combat specialists. I must be missing something, why would a Red Blok army want to assault anyone? Other than a heavy strider stomping on infantry I dont see whats in it for them.


3. Red Blok LP draining.
Is there a cap on how many LP a Red Blok army is entitled to steal? For example GenCol lists spamming Sierps, Dragonov Kommandos and Sgt Tymofiyevas over and over.
Is there a limit, and is there away around LP negating builds because this looks like a decidedly unfun army to play against.


4. Hussar vs Hetman vs Kossak
I have been looking at the ** striders, Kossak offers mnore of the same rockets, Hetman and Hussar both offer a bit of range and something different, up til now I looked maninly at the Hetman becaujse it looks good and has the accuracy 6 power 18 gun. My next question is about ratios of the above. The occassional long range gun is little more than an annoyance, to take a lot of them will be of huge investment cost. So I am now looking for thoughts on what sort of balance amongst the medium striders should be sought. Do I stick to my range bracket and just rely on short ranged rockets or try and build up some worrthwhile longer range fire support?


5. Dotch Yaga.
First what are your thoughts on *** striders in general. Something to be used on occassionaly or a staple of army lists? Now to the Dotch, in keeping with Red Blok theme is doesnt have much range, though at least it does not slow the line down. I cannot work out a combo of Red Blok vehicles that equals its firepower for the same cost, yet it looks like its prey to *** vehicle of other ranges who can outrange andc destroy it. Firecrawler sees it and shoot first Is this the answer the Red Blok are looking for, or a big fat target that wil be shot to bits with with locked shot missiles, monkey jammers or wraith sniper shots long before it gets into range? does this vehicle require a lot of support to survive, and if so what.

I think this just about wraps it up for Red Blok. I hope I should know enough now to be able to order up exactly what I need to fill my army lists and with an efficient selection of swap out units whiklev remaining within my budget.

Orlanth wrote:More questions on Red Blok:

Extant questions.

1. capitalising on Red Blok armour.
This is what worries me, all other armies have massed power 13 and 14 guns in infantry and vehicles alike. They hit Red Blok armour harder than rockets hit theirs. Are the tanks, *** infantry really any more survivable. admittedly UNA on the lower end of the armour stakes have problems that you can wound their TacArms on a 6 with a basic rifle, but apart from that there appears to be little relevant difference.
How do Red Blok capitalise on the extra point or two of armour they get?


2. Red Blok as an assault army.
Ok this is another bit I dont understand. Therians have claws and gun or claws and claws on each infantry. Karmans are gorillas in power armour. UNA are fairly wimpy but at leaat have some close combat specialists. I must be missing something, why would a Red Blok army want to assault anyone? Other than a heavy strider stomping on infantry I dont see whats in it for them.


3. Red Blok LP draining.
Is there a cap on how many LP a Red Blok army is entitled to steal? For example GenCol lists spamming Sierps, Dragonov Kommandos and Sgt Tymofiyevas over and over.
Is there a limit, and is there away around LP negating builds because this looks like a decidedly unfun army to play against.


4. Hussar vs Hetman vs Kossak
I have been looking at the ** striders, Kossak offers mnore of the same rockets, Hetman and Hussar both offer a bit of range and something different, up til now I looked maninly at the Hetman becaujse it looks good and has the accuracy 6 power 18 gun. My next question is about ratios of the above. The occassional long range gun is little more than an annoyance, to take a lot of them will be of huge investment cost. So I am now looking for thoughts on what sort of balance amongst the medium striders should be sought. Do I stick to my range bracket and just rely on short ranged rockets or try and build up some worrthwhile longer range fire support?


5. Dotch Yaga.
First what are your thoughts on *** striders in general. Something to be used on occassionaly or a staple of army lists? Now to the Dotch, in keeping with Red Blok theme is doesnt have much range, though at least it does not slow the line down. I cannot work out a combo of Red Blok vehicles that equals its firepower for the same cost, yet it looks like its prey to *** vehicle of other ranges who can outrange andc destroy it. Firecrawler sees it and shoot first Is this the answer the Red Blok are looking for, or a big fat target that wil be shot to bits with with locked shot missiles, monkey jammers or wraith sniper shots long before it gets into range? does this vehicle require a lot of support to survive, and if so what.

I think this just about wraps it up for Red Blok. I hope I should know enough now to be able to order up exactly what I need to fill my army lists and with an efficient selection of swap out units whiklev remaining within my budget.

1. capitalising on Red Blok armour.
Res Blok Armor is the BEST, this does not mean I can survive long if enough missiles and/or Laser guns and/or jammers hit them, but compared to all the Others the possibility to only scratch the paint is higher (I hate to see how much % is to hit and so on at x distance…it sucks) suffice to say that RB resist more than others… except jammers, they kill a bigger armors as easy as small ones.

If your opponent has enough missiles they WILL destroy an AFV faster…that’s granted, but they willhave less weapons to deal with infantry as missiles are only Anti-AFV (same as jammers) the laser gun can destroy an AFV given enough time, but they “only” make 1 damage… so just take care of positioning and eliminate those annoying Steel Tac Arms before your AFV shows face…

2. Red Blok as an assault army.
Eliminate those GW thoughts, assault, in this case does not mean to take a knife and kill someone, this mean that RB must get close- really close… to do significant damage, and if they do the opponent will regret it… so assault means attack, be bold and get close NOT close combat per se.

3. Red Blok LP draining.
The total pool of LP is the LP value of the company commander + 1 LP for each unit…. each Dragonov “electronic warfare specialist” , Sierp and each Timofiyeva /Kozni will reduce the enemy(ies) LP pool by one, but they cannot be reduced to less than the “normal” LP for the commander.


4. Hussar vs Hetman vs Kossak
Red blok is for getting close, be it a kossak, krasny with rockets or RPG kollossus, just to name some examples…. you can have a long range army if you prefer, and although it could be successful, you are outranged and outgunned by all other armies… . I like the three ** aFV, and each has its own role depending on the scenario/mission

5. Dotch Yaga.
In less than 2000 any type *** AFV is going to be the main target/killer more than that I believe they are more balanced… Again Armor 17 is the highest so far so DY will survive a lot….

I get why the DY is included in the Army Box...by putting that and Krasnye Soldaty in there, the DY being not released otherwise in the original camo scheme, and Krasnye Soldaty being sold out, there's an incentive for existing Red Blok players to purchase the Army Boxes to supplement what they already own.

What I don't get is how this list is going to be competitive. Urod is resilient due to the twins' Repair ability x2, and if Urod sticks close to the DY and helps keep it up and running, with its high Armor the DY can stick around for quite a while...

...but once Urod and the DY go down, this Red Blok list has lost its teeth, hasn't it? I only hear about people taking Krasnye Soldaty for the Mechanics, and in this list if they stick around the Striders to repair then they aren't taking objectives; and the Dragonov Unit is Min sized and therefore can be killed in a turn or two of anti-infantry fire, or easily suppressed with indirect fire weapons.

At 2000 points, Type Three Striders feel like a points sink...kind of like the equivalent of a "top-heavy" army in 40K. Lose that expensive unit at the top of the food chain, and the rest of the list falls apart.

But that's also smart marketing - it means that the Army Box purchasers may get a few games in against veteran players, figure out that they need to supplement sooner rather than later to compete, and then start getting the unit boxes.

The aim of the boxes ist give the beginner a good mixture of everything which allows him to learn by trial and error during his first games.

Do you think the Red Blok list in the box will be competitive, though, Duncan? Honest question - I really don't know as I've never played with that many Krasnye Soldaty. I never ran more than one unit, favoring RPG Soldaty instead and with MG Gauss instead of Rocket Launchers, which I usually stick on the Spetsnatz Kommandos for the higher Accuracy. And the fact that they're free special weapon choices in both cases and saves me 50 AP for other things.

I've also never proxied a Dotch Yaga so I have no idea how resilient it actually is against a Jammer-heavy Karman list, or against a fusillade of U.N.A. laser-guided missiles.

I dont think the army boxes are supposed to be competetive as much as interesting and varied.

Each boxset has the top end model in it as an eye catcher. That is as far as I will attempt to describe or compare the Cogs as I have no further interest in them.

In additon to the top end unit you get some bottom end units properly fleshed out, i.e. not with half useful attavhment boxes but with tailored useful loadouts of men and equipment. Frankly its a more useful start. Then you get some characters and something inbetween.

It also deliberately lacks in this case no 8striders and ***infantry, both of which look fun to add to a collection, so it encourages future expansion.

Whether it is a tight 2k points list I dont know, and dont really care. They have already stolen a march on GW by produci9ng army boxes this way, full legal and points matching armies straight from the box.

What I do assume however is that the Army boxes are likely to be balanced against each other. So if someone buys Red Blok and someone else buys Cog the two armies should be matched. This can again only help, like 40k we need more people to play variety lists rather than tourney ready competetive ones, they tend to be boring and spam out the same few units.

I for one welcome the army boxsets, and would like to get a low down on what the Therian and UNA boxes will contain, atually for no less reasdon than to find out if I get some Star Troopers and a Fire Crawler in the UNA box, because I dont feel like paying out for the current model if i can avoid it.

It is a good start and between beginners competetive. Against experienced gamers you need to get some additional units, but you won´t want not to include the contents of the box.

Like Cairnius says , the vets would love to complete their list with what the army box offers.

And me a beginner always welcome such variety of different units in an army box.

Its win win!

Right thisd just about wraps up my Red Blok get to know, thankyou. Now on to the Therians.

We will start with what I have got:

Infantry
3x Full squad Storm golems, with two Overseers
1x base squad Assault medusae
1x Nucleus Gun team
1x Flamer team

Heavy Infantry
1x Assault Goliaths
2x Bane Goliaths

Striders
3x Wraith Golgoths
1x Baal Golgoth

Heroes
Tiamat


Now what I am looking to get just because UI like the models, on in the base of the Baal the price.

1x 8 Storm arachn
1x Grim Golems and Atis-Astarte
1x (second) Baal Golgoth

As men tioned in my other thread I dont like the Hekat and Succubus models and think the Creation routine looks a bit overpowered. if/when I make hekats I will be scratchbuilding something out of bionicles, something that doesnt look like a barrel riding three spikey space hoppers.

So on to my questions for Therians.

1. Have I got anything like enough basic infantry.
Roughly what rastio of squads to Golgoths would you recommend?

2. Cypher list and the Authority test disadvantage.
A two part question. This looks like my 'favourite' purely on the case that it can use all my big nasty striders and the only downside is lack of slots of * and *** infantry, which is no disadvantage as I am low on both. Now the disadvan tage of Cypher is that you cannot challenge for initiative and I am hearing that many players like to burn six points on Authority to get the first shot.
First part of the question is it really worthwhile buring so many LP to get the first shot, in general not just for Therians. From what I gather you only get to shoot first with one unit, two if you burn another 2LP.
Second am I really shooting myself in the foot by going Cyphers, giving all the routines to all the overseers (except those which are commander only).

3. On Routines.
Can someone give me a low down on the full set of routines, with particular highlight to those which effect model slection such as spawned units (if there any more other than Hekats) or units which specifically benefit morte than others. I can see all this for myself soon, but if my army is missing something I will need to know sooner.
It would be helpful to get a theian routines 101 at this point anyway so i know what to expect.

4. H/Babel and other lists.
As with most of the aermies I am building I cannot viably make an army for every list . I know that with my current selection i cannot make a Web Strider or Warrior list at all. However h/Babel in particular looks promising as I get two vehicles per platoon without requiring a * strider and the selection of base infantry looks far more interesting. The 2LP to activate looks harsh if I get snipered, but then every Overseer is a hero yes, so its the Arachn and Goliaths only who suffer. Tell me more about this faction please.

5. Golgoth guns.
So I get three Wraith golgoths, I am thinking about removing and pinning/magnetising the guns on two of the walkers. This gives me three Wraiths or one of each type of Golgoth. Now i have already heard the warning that Initiation boxset golgoths are glued more firmly than the inddividual ones and are not designed for customisation, but those instructions are no challen ge for a veteran model maker and gamers of systems that dont offer pre assembled miniatures.
So my remaining worry is whether it is worthwhile. for a start customisation has the dubuious extension if adding 50pts to the value of the Golgoths, The Poltergeist is 50pts more expensive even though in total it is the same number of machines and exactly the same guns in a different order. I am guessing this is because the twin sniper Incubus gains more from synergy of weapons than it loses by having two 'weaker' guns. But enough of guesses. Your thoughts please on the Wraith Golgoth variants, is it worth converting them over?

More later, probably as a result of answers given and further digging. Though feel free to offer general tips on what every Therian player ought to know.

1) Any questions about having "enough" stuff comes down to platoon patterns. You don't have enough stuff for higher-point games if you cannot fill platoons.

Most platoons are three infantry units, usually two Type * or ** and one Type ***, and two AFV units, usually one Type * or ** and one Type ** or ***.

It looks like you have Three Type ** Infantry, one Type * Infantry, two Type ** Support teams (think infantry slots), three Type *** Infantry, four Type ** AFVs (including Tiamat), and one Type *** AFV.

That should be enough to run most of the platoon patterns, I think. The lack of Type * AFV's may limit you, but without the book in front of me I'm not sure.


2) I'm not so sure about Cyphers anymore. Back in the day, Cyphers were the faction to run because Overseers could spam Type * Striders. Now, the Cypher advantage pretty much boils down only to Cypher Company Commanders being able to cast any Routine on any unit in your army. For every other Overseer in a Cypher army the Cypher advantage has been rendered meaningless because Rackham ruled that only Company Commanders may use the Creation routine.

I, personally, am not sure that Cyphers are even worth running anymore. Giving up the ability to ever take first turn in AT-43 seems a big price to pay, particularly in the first round. If you make your opponent go first then you can counter every activation he makes and hopefully whittle down his forces right away.

Asking whether it is worth wagering lots of LP on Authority tests really depends on the mission, who you are playing, what your army is, what their army is. If they don't have the range to reach out and really hurt you first turn, it may not be. If you have lots of indirect fire weapons that can reach out then it may be worth wagering for first turn so that you can suppress his infantry as soon as they walk on the table, and effectively take them out of the second round altogether.

There's no definitive answer to this, but why worry about it? Just play around with the factions until you find the one you like - and really, no one can tell you how you are going to play AT-43, Orlanth. I was told many times at the beginning that I just needed to play some games, and it turns out that advice was absolutely correct. Some of these answers you need to just find out for yourself by playing.


3) I am sure someone may run down all the routines, but if you have the rulebook you can answer this for yourself, and you probably ought to handle it that way. The rulebook is $5. Just pick one up and read it, and you're all set. They're not going to handle how you purchase units, as Routines aren't unit-specific.


4) I've never played Babel lists because Babylon/Nina Zero are some of the most broken units in the game from what people tell me. Basically, you pay LP to become a moving sniper, and snipers in AT-43 are disgusting. Unlike in 40K where only a few models ever have the ability to truly "snipe," in AT-43 every army has their snipers, and you can pick out Medics, Officers, or whoever and take them down first.

The fact that you cannot move in order to snipe provides some balance...even with spending LP to remove that restriction, it doesn't balance it out.


5. I am also a veteran model-maker, and I can tell you that I still found converting those Op Damocles Golgoths challenging. It's not all about the washes acting as glue - my Golgoth weapons were plastic-glued into place. I had to break one off and then had to make new pegs and carve new holes into the weapon and frame to make the conversions work. If you know how to do it, great, but it'll take some work.

Incubus Golgoths are great as snipers. Two sniped shots at very high Penetration values = dead mans.

One advantage to having variants to field is if you run the Fusion routine - take two Type * striders from a single unit and replace them with one Type ** strider where one of the original two once stood. Fuse a Poltergeist if you need anti-infantry, fuse an Incubus if you need to take down some armor and/or start sniping, go Wraith if you don't need one or the other more or less.

Of course, to do this you're going to need some Type * AFVs to start with and run in units...

@Cypher

They are still fun if you like their style of play. Clarifying that only Commanders can use certain routines (you could deduct it from the rules, but you needed a chart to fully grasp it) is not much of a problem and keeps you from spamming Type * AFV. I do play Cyphers and don think that tehy are missing something.

@routines

Should help you for a starter

@Babel
Strong, but not broken. And since the other Frostbite Heros are equally strong they balance each other.
Babel gets Sniper ability while moving, but only for two shots, not enough to unbalance the game. It can´t be compared to 40K since you have way mor scenery on the table.

@Conversion
If you do know how to use a hand-drill and how to glue a plastic/metal rod into place there shouldn't be a problem.

Orlanth wrote:Right thisd just about wraps up my Red Blok get to know, thankyou. Now on to the Therians.

...

As men tioned in my other thread I dont like the Hekat and Succubus models and think the Creation routine looks a bit overpowered. if/when I make hekats I will be scratchbuilding something out of bionicles, something that doesnt look like a barrel riding three spikey space hoppers.

All that has been said about building a Red Blok army applies to therians as well, However therians play differently to RB for sure, Therians can shoot at longer distances and kill something that RB certainly lacks. SO you can build a very shooty army or a close combat or a mixed, in the end its up to you....

Cairnius is wromng when he said that most platoon are "balanced" thats not totally correct, in some platoons you may need 4 infantry slots and 1 AFV. Please refer to the Army book to see what fdo you need.... in the end it will allways come to prefrences

There is one therian platoon that requires a type * AFV with bno other option, so in bigger games you will not be able to fill that platoon (and start another) if you dont have a type * AFV unit.

Orlanth wrote:
1. Have I got anything like enough basic infantry.
Roughly what rastio of squads to Golgoths would you recommend?

As said to red blok... ratios are not 1:2 if you are asking... go check the platoon get some minis and see if you like it and specially which sort of AFV do you like.... proxy if necessary but dont ask for ratios

Orlanth wrote:
2. Cypher list and the Authority test disadvantage.
A two part question. This looks like my 'favourite' purely on the case that it can use all my big nasty striders and the only downside is lack of slots of * and *** infantry, which is no disadvantage as I am low on both. Now the disadvan tage of Cypher is that you cannot challenge for initiative and I am hearing that many players like to burn six points on Authority to get the first shot.
First part of the question is it really worthwhile buring so many LP to get the first shot, in general not just for Therians. From what I gather you only get to shoot first with one unit, two if you burn another 2LP.
Second am I really shooting myself in the foot by going Cyphers, giving all the routines to all the overseers (except those which are commander only).

Cairnius is wrong again, Cyphers is the most common used platoon formation, all platoons can only create 1 hekat/succubus per turn agreed, but in the cyphers you dont need your company commander to be IN an AFV to be able to create them... so even if killed any "new" company commander can create..... thats 200/250? AP per turn for free...
Dont forget the Fusion routine....
Actually ALL routines are better in a cypher commander using them to where they are needed...


Warriors advantage is "ok" but nothing life changing as not ALL units can have Overseers
Web Striders advatage is good but not being able to reduce the cost of Routines to 0 is not lige changing either

Orlanth wrote:
3. On Routines.
Can someone give me a low down on the full set of routines, with particular highlight to those which effect model slection such as spawned units (if there any more other than Hekats) or units which specifically benefit morte than others. I can see all this for myself soon, but if my army is missing something I will need to know sooner.
It would be helpful to get a theian routines 101 at this point anyway so i know what to expect.

Done by Duncan Idaho in a previous post

Orlanth wrote:
4. H/Babel and other lists.
As with most of the aermies I am building I cannot viably make an army for every list . I know that with my current selection i cannot make a Web Strider or Warrior list at all. However h/Babel in particular looks promising as I get two vehicles per platoon without requiring a * strider and the selection of base infantry looks far more interesting. The 2LP to activate looks harsh if I get snipered, but then every Overseer is a hero yes, so its the Arachn and Goliaths only who suffer. Tell me more about this faction please.

As mentioned... Cyphers are more useful to me!

Orlanth wrote:
5. Golgoth guns.
So I get three Wraith golgoths, I am thinking about removing and pinning/magnetising the guns on two of the walkers. This gives me three Wraiths or one of each type of Golgoth. Now i have already heard the warning that Initiation boxset golgoths are glued more firmly than the inddividual ones and are not designed for customisation, but those instructions are no challen ge for a veteran model maker and gamers of systems that dont offer pre assembled miniatures.
So my remaining worry is whether it is worthwhile. for a start customisation has the dubuious extension if adding 50pts to the value of the Golgoths, The Poltergeist is 50pts more expensive even though in total it is the same number of machines and exactly the same guns in a different order. I am guessing this is because the twin sniper Incubus gains more from synergy of weapons than it loses by having two 'weaker' guns. But enough of guesses. Your thoughts please on the Wraith Golgoth variants, is it worth converting them over?

More later, probably as a result of answers given and further digging. Though feel free to offer general tips on what every Therian player ought to know.

I play incubuss or poltergeist only.... no more Wraith I prefer my golgoths to have specialisation, so I need to convert..... Im ashamed to say convert as it implies some skills....skills needed to change weapons are 0... so you just unplug and plug the other weapon... with exception of the Operation Damocles Golgoths, ALL other type **/*** Golgoths have removable weapons.... if you cannot remove them in 5 seconds, your modelling skills are less than a three year old kid... You dont need to magnetize they are female/male, and fit perfectly

Cairnius wrote:1) Any questions about having "enough" stuff comes down to platoon patterns. You don't have enough stuff for higher-point games if you cannot fill platoons.

Sure that much anyonwe who has seen the platoon orgs can worik out fro themselves. What I was asking was more subtle.

First you can start a platoon and not fininsh it. So in a game where you cannot really afford more than one-two platoons you can fill a platoon anyway then get the ! mandatory choice and then cherry pick the units from the second platoon, Say all the strider slots or all the heavy infantry.
Second you can buiy cheap units to pack plattons legally in order to unlciok more platoons and buy expensive units of your choice.
This is where the ratios come in. Say a list has three infantry and two strider slots, you could fill it up evenly but you could also take miniumu suize infantry slots and cheap support teams for all the platoons you can afford then the striders only for the last platoon. This way you can imbalance heavily towards striders while obeying the platoon org rules. likewise you need not spend a */** vehicle slot on a decent ** strider or squadron of striders, but on one * vehicle, the very cheapest avaialbe. This is legal and allows you to unlokc another platoon of max sized infantry.

Thus I am looking for a rough idea of ratios.

Cairnius wrote:2) I'm not so sure about Cyphers anymore. Back in the day, Cyphers were the faction to run because Overseers could spam Type * Striders. Now, the Cypher advantage pretty much boils down only to Cypher Company Commanders being able to cast any Routine on any unit in your army. For every other Overseer in a Cypher army the Cypher advantage has been rendered meaningless because Rackham ruled that only Company Commanders may use the Creation routine.

I like Cyphers for the choice of units in a platoon, the actual faction advantage I havent looked into much.

Cairnius wrote:
There's no definitive answer to this, but why worry about it? Just play around with the factions until you find the one you like - and really, no one can tell you how you are going to play AT-43, Orlanth. I was told many times at the beginning that I just needed to play some games, and it turns out that advice was absolutely correct. Some of these answers you need to just find out for yourself by playing.


3) I am sure someone may run down all the routines, but if you have the rulebook you can answer this for yourself, and you probably ought to handle it that way. The rulebook is $5. Just pick one up and read it, and you're all set. They're not going to handle how you purchase units, as Routines aren't unit-specific.

I will group these two responces together. I have been very specific to say, repeatedly that I have not yet got all the AT-43 I need, and those items that I bought have yet to arrive. I dont reslly want to wait until a few games later, when I have everything and the firesale is over to know that I should have had this unit instead of that one, and that such and such specialist is only good in pairs. Its too late then.

Cairnius wrote:
5. I am also a veteran model-maker, and I can tell you that I still found converting those Op Damocles Golgoths challenging. It's not all about the washes acting as glue - my Golgoth weapons were plastic-glued into place. I had to break one off and then had to make new pegs and carve new holes into the weapon and frame to make the conversions work. If you know how to do it, great, but it'll take some work.

It looks like a job for pinning, a bit of work but no problem. The only issue here is matching paintjobs, any idea exactly what paints were used, you toucherd up some minis so you might have discovered what paints were in the palette (most companies buy paint from the same factory sources). All I have fouind out so far is that the Red Blok use what we know as GW Terracotta for the red. Any lowdown on the therians paints, or for any other for that matter?

Incubus Golgoths are great as snipers. Two sniped shots at very high Penetration values = dead mans.

Cairnius wrote:
One advantage to having variants to field is if you run the Fusion routine - take two Type * striders from a single unit and replace them with one Type ** strider where one of the original two once stood. Fuse a Poltergeist if you need anti-infantry, fuse an Incubus if you need to take down some armor and/or start sniping, go Wraith if you don't need one or the other more or less.

Of course, to do this you're going to need some Type * AFVs to start with and run in units...

Yeas fusion with an open selection of possilbe choice vehicles makes the idea of taking (scratchbuilt) hekats in the list very appealing. Thankyou for that.

I heard that Urash does something about grouping two single summoned Hekats so they count as part of the same unit for purposes of Fusion. Have I heard right, also if so can Urash group two Wraiths go I can Fuse them into a Baal?

I have also worked out a nerw question regarding H/Babel lists.

If I give a Golgoth an Alpha and the Golgoth is destroyed, do I get a free Overseer on foot? After all the Golgoth is automatically piloted by a hero due to faction advantage and heroes eject when their vehicles are destroyed.

I feel I am missing somrthing here, or we would be told which Oversser type the ejected hero reperesents.

An Alpha is only an officer, not a hero. The answer in this case is: No he can´t eject.

I heard that Urash does something about grouping two single summoned Hekats so they count as part of the same unit for purposes of Fusion. Have I heard right, also if so can Urash group two Wraiths go I can Fuse them into a Baal?

Yes, he can.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:An Alpha is only an officer, not a hero. The answer in this case is: No he can´t eject.

Quote Therians H/Babel army list from Easy AT-43

Advantage:
H/Babel overseers benefit from the hero rules

Those Overseers are only heros with regard to what's written in the rule book, i.e. damage etc. In order to eject a hero needs the special ability "Heroic Pilot" and since Overseers do not have this ability, you will not get an Overseer on foot after the AFV is destroyed.

Right I am about done with Therians and Red Blok.

Now it is time for the return to this topic and ironing out my queries pre build for U.N.A. So straight on to the questions.

1. Laser designators. How does this work, is it automatic or do I need a roll to hit like a markerlights?

2. More on laser designators. If I give laser designatros to a Tac Arm squad, who has them, the sgt or everyone? Also can they pick a target each per surviving squad member or just one collectively. Can they be split fired?

3. Even more on laser designators. Lt Epstone, if I give her one (sic) do I have to upgrade the entire squad?

4. Final question on laser designators. Do you get a cover save to avoid the effects? After all they cant paint you if they cant find you.

5. Cpt Newton in Morningstar lists. Can she have double repair, or is the ability lost?

6. Lancelots, borkan? When I noticed that laser designators can make indirect fire weapons autohit, two Lancelots can fire an autohiting rain of four shells yielding a precise targeted 10cm radius template and two hits each. reading this right yes with 4x 3cm blasts. Now these are for some reason the cheapest of the Fire Toad mods being 150pts, and yet they look to me like Sierps without error, but no LP drain. Am I missing something, why isnt everyone raving about these striders?

Thats about all the questions I have for UNA, at least for now. I am picking up more and more now, and getting a feel of the game enough to plan my purchases with a reasonable degree of assurance I am getting the right stuff for the right reasons.

1. Laser designators. How does this work, is it automatic or do I need a roll to hit like a markerlights?

Automatic, but you need a LOS and need to announce it.

2. More on laser designators. If I give laser designatros to a Tac Arm squad, who has them, the sgt or everyone? Also can they pick a target each per surviving squad member or just one collectively. Can they be split fired?

Whole unit gets ist. They target one target unit as a team, like with standard weapons. They can´t split the laser marker.

3. Even more on laser designators. Lt Epstone, if I give her one (sic) do I have to upgrade the entire squad?

Death Dealer have designators as a standard equipment, the same goes for Epstone.

4. Final question on laser designators. Do you get a cover save to avoid the effects? After all they cant paint you if they cant find you.

As long as they can mark parts of you they designate you as a target. No cover if this happens. If you are completely hidden, they can´t mark you.

5. Cpt Newton in Morningstar lists. Can she have double repair, or is the ability lost?

No, she can´t get better than she already is .

6. Lancelots, borkan? When I noticed that laser designators can make indirect fire weapons autohit, two Lancelots can fire an autohiting rain of four shells yielding a precise targeted 10cm radius template and two hits each. reading this right yes with 4x 3cm blasts. Now these are for some reason the cheapest of the Fire Toad mods being 150pts, and yet they look to me like Sierps without error, but no LP drain. Am I missing something, why isnt everyone raving about these striders?

Because they are Infantry-only. And you still need to roll for a hit, since the designators only replace the LOS. Also, compared with the rest of the UNA they have to get rather close to hit.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Death Dealer have designators as a standard equipment, the same goes for Epstone.

The army builder let me take laser designators for Epstone seperately, I thought it might save some points.

So you are (indirectly) saying that is a glitch in Easy AT-43?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Because they are Infantry-only. And you still need to roll for a hit, since the designators only replace the LOS. Also, compared with the rest of the UNA they have to get rather close to hit.

So the laser designators dont cause autohits for artillery. Ok read that wrong......Hold on, as indirect doesnt need LOS anyway what benefit is there?

In any case no autohit means that Lancelots are not as good as they seemed. What about Iron Rain?

Indirect need a LOS, but one partly visible soldier is enough.

An Iron Rain is the Toad version of a Death Dealer.

No, it isn´t a glitch. I checked it back. In an older PDF the designator was standard, in Frostbite it is optional. The old PDF was a special DD-army list which now has become more or less obsolete with frostbite.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

2. More on laser designators. If I give laser designatros to a Tac Arm squad, who has them, the sgt or everyone? Also can they pick a target each per surviving squad member or just one collectively. Can they be split fired?

Whole unit gets ist. They target one target unit as a team, like with standard weapons. They can´t split the laser marker.

Hey Duncan, are you sure abiout it, i got the impression it was 1 Laser designator per fighter, although i have not the UNA book with me

Dang, shouldn´t try to answer three questions in one sentence around midnight:

- Every TacArm gets one marker and every single of them can target a different target.

- Laser targeter works for them only if they have rockets (Jam TacArms). But since they already do have a line of sight it does not really help them. Another Jam TacArm unit might be happy about it, though.

- They have two salvos, one for each arm-mounted weapon. This can be split (shoot-move-shoot)/aimed at two different units. But besides from the RL don´t get any help from the lasers.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Dang, shouldn´t try to answer three questions in one sentence around midnight:

- Every TacArm gets one marker and every single of them can target a different target.

Each laser designators targets a UNIT not a fighter, so you can target 3 units in total

So you have painting lasers that always hit, have unlimited range, target one whole unit per fighter and you can use it to lock on your missiles. They should at least be considered one of the two targets a suit can shoot at in the turn. Do they? Als:

- Must the unit be one fired at by the TacArms or can they target something else?

- Can the data be used by more than one UNA unit or must you expend markers as you use them?

- When do the tokens expire, do they continue the target unit next activates, end of turn or whatever?

Orlanth wrote:So you have painting lasers that always hit, have unlimited range, target one whole unit per fighter and you can use it to lock on your missiles. They should at least be considered one of the two targets a suit can shoot at in the turn. Do they? Als:

- Must the unit be one fired at by the TacArms or can they target something else?

- Can the data be used by more than one UNA unit or must you expend markers as you use them?

- When do the tokens expire, do they continue the target unit next activates, end of turn or whatever?

They can target ANY Unit that they have LOS of at least 1 fighter, they can shoot to the same unit, but thats up to you
No markers... any unit can lock the ML at the same designated unit

I do not remember exactly if it expires after the END of the turn or the next activation of the Tac Arms that designated

Wolfen wrote:

I do not remember exactly if it expires after the END of the turn or the next activation of the Tac Arms that designated

Having a markert expire when the Tasc Arm nexct activastes makes some sense but then you will need to mark the markers soyou know which expires and when.

Having a marker expire when the target also makes sense as if the target moves to break LOS it should automatically expire. Except now you dont need to mark which marker was fired by which Tac Arm unit. This is the most tqactical option as turn order makes its impact and something can be done about markers tactically.

If markers expire at end of turn you get a simple solution, however it does mean Tac Arms have to activate before missile packing infantry and Defender striders. This should be 'interesting' on the battlefield, but as you practically only need one Tac Arm unit, two to cover different terrain approaches, for most/all your missile shooting it is no handicap.

It's until the end of the round.

So to get the benefit activate TacArms first, then rocket infantry afterwards.

Well at least that fixes a previously random order and makes a UNA army easier to exploit. A fair balance I suppose.

My UNA and Therian armies arrived today, | will be opening up a new thread on them for general hints and what nots.

Orlanth wrote:My UNA and Therian armies arrived today, | will be opening up a new thread on them for general hints and what nots.

would you guys help update the AT-43 Wiki? http://www.at-43wiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

*additional question ( i re read the 5 pages , forgive me if i missed something already answered )

1) When Omega Tiamat is destroyed , she can body hack the closest unit with an over seer. Does the whole unit count as being destroyed ? or just the over seer it self?

2) In the army book i see a Hetman with 2 AT guns , is that a conversion or is there actually a model that replaces the rockets?

3) Since Red Blok moves slow , can the massed infantry (say 3 groups ) hide behind the Dotch Yaga and repair with their mechanics? or even have Manon and Odin baby sit the group as well.

LunaHound wrote:
*additional question ( i re read the 5 pages , forgive me if i missed something already answered )

1) When Omega Tiamat is destroyed , she can body hack the closest unit with an over seer. Does the whole unit count as being destroyed ? or just the over seer it self?

The rules say replaces the overseer, some persons have said this has been FAQ'ed to mean thne whole unit, but I have not seen this.

LunaHound wrote:
2) In the army book i see a Hetman with 2 AT guns , is that a conversion or is there actually a model that replaces the rockets?

When I asked this the reply didnt read the question, Duncan bless him has a habit of answering a different question to that posed. Yes the Red Blok army box contains a Hetman not a 2x AT gun strider, however the 2x AT gun is very likely an upcoming release. Rackham can take advantage of redundancy of components by replacing the medium rockets on a Hetman with another AT gun and printing a couple of cards to go with it, they have done this often enough with other striders.
You need not wait for the rules though, just swap over the weapons on two Hetmen (making a Kossak with a larger canopy in the process).

LunaHound wrote:
3) Since Red Blok moves slow , can the massed infantry (say 3 groups ) hide behind the Dotch Yaga and repair with their mechanics? or even have Manon and Odin baby sit the group as well.

Definately, I think this is the idea and why you have the two mechanic squad in the Army box. The tactic looks to be valid and fair, and not without a counter, artillery might not do much to Red Blok striders, but it will be very effective agaisnt following infantry. I suppose you can direct fire your artillery at the Krasny by direct firing on the Dotch Yaga itself and placing the template over the rear of its base. That ought to catch a few commies.

AHHHH i didnt realize the AT gun can be converted this easily ( just switch the tab to the other side rofl ) If i knew this could be done , i wouldnt have ordered Kossak ( i hate how they look ) But love Hetman model

LunaHound wrote:
AHHHH i didnt realize the AT gun can be converted this easily ( just switch the tab to the other side rofl ) If i knew this could be done , i wouldnt have ordered Kossak ( i hate how they look ) But love Hetman model

You havent done badly with a Kossak. Vrachov can ride a Kossak and he has a free ranging medic ability. As far as I know he can heal Kolossi. So if you follow of Kolossus unit it will be very hard to kill. This could be especially nasty with Dragomirov with the hero attachment.

I like the looks of the Kossak anyway, its the right type of ugly. I dont like the Hussar though.

LunaHound wrote:
*additional question ( i re read the 5 pages , forgive me if i missed something already answered )

1) When Omega Tiamat is destroyed , she can body hack the closest unit with an over seer. Does the whole unit count as being destroyed ? or just the over seer it self?

2) In the army book i see a Hetman with 2 AT guns , is that a conversion or is there actually a model that replaces the rockets?

3) Since Red Blok moves slow , can the massed infantry (say 3 groups ) hide behind the Dotch Yaga and repair with their mechanics? or even have Manon and Odin baby sit the group as well.

Orlath answer you before but I will clarify more.

1) In the English Therian Army Book says that Tiamat takes over the body of the Closest overseer (if she wants and paying the LP) so that means it could be Urash or Nina, or even Babylon 0 AND also says that the unit of the overseer is dead/eliminated or whatever you want to call it i.e. they are removed from game.

2) The 2 AT gun strider is not released, but as a Red Blok Player I look forward to it... or 1 AT cannon AN hussar Missile launcher

3) Yes a very wicked and, in my experience, very succesful tactic that will win games not friends. You can have the DY with minimum size KRasny soldat only for mechanics behind him or run a GenCOl army with 2 Urods supporting him and some extra Krasny units....
**mean mean girl**

Wolfen wrote:
3) Yes a very wicked and, in my experience, very succesful tactic that will win games not friends. You can have the DY with minimum size KRasny soldat only for mechanics behind him or run a GenCOl army with 2 Urods supporting him and some extra Krasny units....
**mean mean girl**

Wait wait , but that mean 's the enemie's mortars will hit the ones hiding behind DY extra hard as well since they are cramped ?

LunaHound wrote:

Wolfen wrote:
3) Yes a very wicked and, in my experience, very succesful tactic that will win games not friends. You can have the DY with minimum size KRasny soldat only for mechanics behind him or run a GenCOl army with 2 Urods supporting him and some extra Krasny units....
**mean mean girl**

Wait wait , but that mean 's the enemie's mortars will hit the ones hiding behind DY extra hard as well since they are cramped ?

Yes they will, see my above post. This is why this tactic is a trade off not a cheesy trick. Krasny mechanics are horribly vulnerable. Armour 3 means they will take a lot of casualties even to weak blast weapons of S4 or S5. Then what lives is likely knocked down and the Dotch Yaga will have to choose between advancing of waiting for its infantry support to get back up again.

Urods as support is far nastier, but you are getting what you pay for. A Dotch Yaga and two Urods in a GenCol list comes to a minimum of 1910pts for the three units and you need to buy a minimum of three infantry units to back them up to keep the list legal. At 2500pts this barely doable and only if you make all four units either minimum size Krasny and Dragonov support teams.
The words Eggs, All and Basket come to mind here.

Now if instead you took two Dotch Yaga, make one your army leader your army will have a core cost of 1595pts plus support. give your opponent too much socialist steel to deal with, evwen if mechanic support is less as a consequence.
How about you make this Frontline army for 2500pts:

A Platoon
Dotch Yaga Lt
Sierp
6 Dragonov, sergeant, medic, Ew specialist and sniper gun
3 Dragonov Snipers
8 Krasny with 2 mechanics and a grenade launcher

B Platoon
Dotch Yaga
Molot

2495pts. Sierp hides. Dragonov and Molot harass, Krasny follow as best they can.

Or.

A Platoon
Dotch Yaga
Urod
3 Dragonov Snipers
3 Med Tech team
9 Krasny Soldaty with sgt, 2 mechanics and grenade launcher

B Platoon
Dotch Yaga

2485pts. Three striders close up and punch through, Krasny and medics follow, snipers lurk and harass.

1) When Omega Tiamat is destroyed , she can body hack the closest unit with an over seer. Does the whole unit count as being destroyed ? or just the over seer it self?

Yes, the whole unit is destroyed. There was a misprint in the German AB, but it has been corrected.

2) In the army book i see a Hetman with 2 AT guns , is that a conversion or is there actually a model that replaces the rockets?

It was just a display model, but maybe sometime in the future there will be one.

3) Since Red Blok moves slow , can the massed infantry (say 3 groups ) hide behind the Dotch Yaga and repair with their mechanics? or even have Manon and Odin baby sit the group as well.

Infantry advancing behind AFV is a standard tactic for RB and should be practiced whenerver possible.

Orlanth wrote:
A Platoon
Dotch Yaga Lt
Sierp
6 Dragonov, sergeant, medic, Ew specialist and sniper gun
3 Dragonov Snipers
8 Krasny with 2 mechanics and a grenade launcher

B Platoon
Dotch Yaga
Molot

2495pts. Sierp hides. Dragonov and Molot harass, Krasny follow as best they can.

Or.

A Platoon
Dotch Yaga
Urod
3 Dragonov Snipers
3 Med Tech team
9 Krasny Soldaty with sgt, 2 mechanics and grenade launcher

B Platoon
Dotch Yaga

2485pts. Three striders close up and punch through, Krasny and medics follow, snipers lurk and harass.

Just for the fun all at 2500

Genecol
Platoon 1
- 9 Dragonov Kommandos (Sergeant, 3 AT Gauss Gun)
- Dotch Yaga
- Urod (+ Colonels Odin & Manon)
- 8 Krasnye Soldaty (Sergeant, 1 Grenade Launcher) + mechs
- 8 Krasnye Soldaty (Sergeant, 1 Grenade Launcher) + mechs
Platoon 2
- 3 MedTech
- Hussar (Sergeant)


OR
Genecol
Platoon 1
- 3 Dragonov Groupa A
- Dotch Yaga
- Urod (+ Colonels Odin & Manon)
- 8 Krasnye Soldaty (Sergeant, 1 Grenade Launcher) + mechs
- 8 Krasnye Soldaty (Sergeant, 1 Grenade Launcher) + mechs
Platoon 2
- 3 Dragonov Groupa A
- Urod (+ Colonels Odin & Manon)

OR
Frontline
Platoon 1
- Dotch Yaga
- Urod (+ Colonels Odin & Manon)
- 9 Dragonov Kommandos (Sergeant, 3 Sniper Gun)
- 9 Dragonov Kommandos (Sergeant, 3 AT Gauss Gun)
- 12 Krasnye Soldaty (+ Captain P. Vrachov, 3 Grenade Launcher)
Platoon 2
- 1 Sierp (Sergeant)

OR
ARC
Platoon 1
- 12 Krasnye Soldaty (+ Captain P. Vrachov, 3 Grenade Launcher)
- Dotch Yaga
- Urod (+ Colonels Odin & Manon)
- 12 Krasnye Soldaty (Sergeant, 3 Grenade Launcher)
- 9 Dragonov Kommandos (3 AT Gauss Gun)
Platoon 2
- 12 Krasnye Soldaty (3 Grenade Launcher)

Is the rules for Nina and Babylon 0 in frost bite book?
( i dont see it in Therian army book grr :< )

If yes, what other things am i missing out because i dont have frost bite book!

LunaHound wrote:Is the rules for Nina and Babylon 0 in frost bite book?
( i dont see it in Therian army book grr :< )

If yes, what other things am i missing out because i dont have frost bite book!

Ok, In the Frostbite books the are Rules for units:

UNA:
Lt Epstone (A Death dealer tac Arms Hero)
DEath Delaers tac arms rules
support units a 2-man special weapon team (volcano mg, laser gun, sniper gun etc)
Camel transport

Red Blok:
Lt Dragomira
Dragomirov Kolossus
support units 3 man special weapon team
Soundouk transport

Therians
Nina/Babylon 0
The storm arachns
support units
Kraken transport

Karmans
Karman hero (dont rememeber the name
K burners
Support units
Kangaroo transport

Others:
Rules for ice terrain
Afew extra kits like more drills or extra granades or rules for Karman cristals
the campaign
Medtech
Weather conditions...

Thinkthats all

Luna you only need Frostbite book really. You do not need Frostbite boxset.

You can even play the campaign with just the book, just use your own terrain.


http://www.miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/424239

This iorder for just the book includes the playing cards and the scenario leaflet showing how the map tiles are organised. But not the civilians, crystals and tiles.

Crystals are easy to come by, any new age and some arts shops will sell you real crystals, and for less. Besides you wont want crystals unless you collect Karmans, for everyone else its just random terrain. I dont know about you, but if I collect Karmans I will buy some real crystals and base them up, it ought to look better anyway.

Wolfen wrote:
Camel transport
Karmans
Kangaroo transport

Thank you so much again wolfen!
And im trying to picture a kangaroo transport in my head

@Orlanth ah i see , though engineers and crystals are nice to have for $14 more

side question again ^^; say Red Bloks have Accuracy of 1 , whats the max distance they can shoot at on 6's?

accuracy +5 x 10cm

So for accuracy 1 you hit

on a 4+ from 0-30cm
on a 5+ from 30-50cm
on a 6+ from 50-70cm

Ranges in AT43 are reasonably long

Accuracy 1 can hit as far as a 36" range at BS1
20" with orky shooting and 12" as guard. When moving your RPG armed soldats think of them as trying to get in meltagun range, with an offchance of hitting far further away.

Accuracy 4, which is average for most soldiers shoot as well as orks to 36", guard to 24" and as marines at 12".

Orlanth wrote:accuracy +5 x 10cm

So for accuracy 1 you hit

on a 4+ from 0-30cm
on a 5+ from 30-50cm
on a 6+ from 50-70cm

Ranges in AT43 are reasonably long

Accuracy 1 can hit as far as a 36" range at BS1
20" with orky shooting and 12" as guard. When moving your RPG armed soldats think of them as trying to get in meltagun range, with an offchance of hitting far further away.

Accuracy 4, which is average for most soldiers shoot as well as orks to 36", guard to 24" and as marines at 12".

Which page is that on ><?

ohhh im so confused -_- maybe im just stupid

LunaHound wrote:

Wolfen wrote:
Camel transport
Karmans
Kangaroo transport

Thank you so much again wolfen!
And im trying to picture a kangaroo transport in my head

@Orlanth ah i see , though engineers and crystals are nice to have for $14 more

side question again ^^; say Red Bloks have Accuracy of 1 , whats the max distance they can shoot at on 6's?

There is a "picture" sort of of the Kangaro in the OP frostbite book... The cristals ALSO provide cover to others not only Karmans and height is infinite...so even type ** or *** could get good cover. Karmans of course have some more benefits


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:

Orlanth wrote:accuracy +5 x 10cm

So for accuracy 1 you hit

on a 4+ from 0-30cm
on a 5+ from 30-50cm
on a 6+ from 50-70cm

Ranges in AT43 are reasonably long

Accuracy 1 can hit as far as a 36" range at BS1
20" with orky shooting and 12" as guard. When moving your RPG armed soldats think of them as trying to get in meltagun range, with an offchance of hitting far further away.

Accuracy 4, which is average for most soldiers shoot as well as orks to 36", guard to 24" and as marines at 12".

Which page is that on ><?

ohhh im so confused -_- maybe im just stupid

As in UniversalTable of REsolution UTR, Accuracy 1 means that the maximum range is 70cm.... 70 cm is range 6....

Action Value =1
Difficulty = 6

Action Value - difficulty = 1-6= -5

In the UTR a value of -5 need a roll of 6 in a d6.... rockets can potentially hit upto 70 cm

Does that mean all the Accuracy 1 troops might as well as spray and pray to fire at anything within 70 cm?

Or is there some tactical reason not to?

LunaHound wrote:
Does that mean all the Accuracy 1 troops might as well as spray and pray to fire at anything within 70 cm?

Or is there some tactical reason not to?

Sorry i did not really get the question....

60-79 cm is the maximum need a 6 on a d6 to hit
40-59 5+ on a d6
20-39 4+ on a d6
0-19 3+ on a d6

Wolfen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
Does that mean all the Accuracy 1 troops might as well as spray and pray to fire at anything within 70 cm?

Or is there some tactical reason not to?

Sorry i did not really get the question....

60-79 cm is the maximum need a 6 on a d6 to hit
40-59 5+ on a d6
20-39 4+ on a d6
0-19 3+ on a d6

Accuracy 1 never gets a 3+ to hit.
This is correct:

So for accuracy 1 you hit

on a 4+ from 0-30cm
on a 5+ from 30-50cm
on a 6+ from 50-70cm


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:
Does that mean all the Accuracy 1 troops might as well as spray and pray to fire at anything within 70 cm?

Or is there some tactical reason not to?

What we are saying is that there is no flat rate of to hit rolls like in 40K.

Orks spray and pray, or more like spray and yell.

In At-43 you close range to your target if you need to and then shoot the closest viable target if you are Red Blok, with other more accurate troops you get some leeway amnd eventually get in ranges where you autohit.
However soldiers can shoot at long range and try for 6's, whatever long range to them is.

Is ther a reason not to? Yes, and no.

If you cannot do anything else with the unit fire away, you might get sixes. Otherwise spend an LP and put the unit on overwatch, the enemy might themselves need to get closer, or move out of cover. If you are lucky they might manoeuver so you get your shots in at 5+ rather than 6. With Red Blok LP having more LP than most you might be able to afford it. Dont go mad with it though, cover is more important and even Red Blok cant afford to give cover and overwatch to everyone, so your long range 'maybe-maybe' shots are likely better off being used on the go unle4ss you end up with LP to burn towards the end of the turn.

Orlanth wrote:

Accuracy 1 never gets a 3+ to hit.
This is correct:

So for accuracy 1 you hit

on a 4+ from 0-30cm
on a 5+ from 30-50cm
on a 6+ from 50-70cm

Yes my mistake.... the mathematics failed me big time

Alot of 40k stuff is being used for transports
A fav among Karman players is the Tau Devilfish.
UNA and Red Bloc like the Valkerie....Some nicly converted & painted GW stuff over at the rackham painting & modeling section (workshop)
http://en-forum.at-43.com/viewtopic.php?t=6495

I think you are answering the wrong thread, we are discussing At-43 tranports here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/242669.page

I will be sticking with the Corvus, and maybe will continue to do so after the Camel is released. It is cheap and it is small, the cargo bay is big enough to give it a chance to take a small squad and it is nicely shaped so it gets away with its very small profile. This model will be convenient for play, far more than the Valkyrie is.

I have noted that most artowrk is for wingless variable thrust pod dropships. Raxckham also wants its vehicles to be conventiently sized. The Valkyrie looks cool but its size causes rules problems, the Corvus is far smaller and thus can not only fit in a terrain heavy game, but also doesnt cause a lot of LOS and ranging problems.

Have you used any snipers yet, Orlanth?

Not personally, I dont have any, but my opponent using my Therian army is beginning to see what they can do.

Frankly I find the sniper rules fair, Zero Fire excepted. But I will not tolerate spamming max snipers for balance sake. You have to set up a shot and must have direct LOS to target, to me this means head and chest, not part of the base.

The problem we are haing with is indirect fire rules, which are pretty poor even with 10cm scatter on every miss rewrite. In fact one of the players introduced has already lost interest in the system on account for what a Defender Cobra can do and how little can be done about it.

I had already fixed some rules, by necessity. Some of my players were at give up point without changes, we tried an unmodified game yesterday at 2.5k points. it was suggested we got some orginal rules and points sizes games in as suggested before I house rule everything, it reiterated what we already knew. While the core rules are good, many of the rules need a complete rewrite before the game stops sucking.
we didnt play strict Rackham rules past the first turn.

So blast does not ignore cover, if you have take cover orders you get a 5+ because you 'hit the deck' or equivalent, always, if you have cover between you and the blast epicentre you get your 5+/3+.
Flamers are not indirect fire, but do ignore all cover.
Grenades are limited to 10cm range and dont scatter, you get 1cm blast per two models firing and always get cover because there is no one blast epicentre. You need to lead with your sergeant to use grenades.

Fior multiple blast you only count hits, misses are discounted entirely unless they all miss when you get one scatter of one blast of 10cm direction, with a radius of +1cm per additional shot.
Hits also only give +1cm per additional shot, not double.
two 3cm blasts is not equal in area to a 6cm blast, dont they teach geometry in France? In fact 4cm is about right. If the blast is over 5cm to begin with it adds +2cm per extra hit.
The rules for exheeding 10cm dont change, but are harder to reach with the changes, K-Warriors might now be a little weak for the points, but we dont have any so we will fix that when it becomes a problem.

One of the friends I started playing AT-43 with pretty much wanted to walk away from the table when he saw the indirect fire and sniper rules in action.

Personally, indirect fire rules are the only ones I really have any problem with in concept. It's too easy to knock down enemy squads...and I am giving up Red Blok in favor of U.N.A. in large part due to TacArms units being immune from Knockdowns and Kolossus units not getting that ability. For infantry squads with indirect fire weapons it takes them some time to get into effective range with Flamers or Grenade Launchers, but on vehicles Indirect Fire weapons can be just disgusting.

The only time I've had a problem with the Sniper rules was in the Extraction mission in the main rulebook. My opponent was the player trying to extract the pilot, and I was trying to kill the pilot. He picks up the pilot, following activation I snipe the pilot and there was nothing he could do about. I played the mission properly, but it felt like a cheap win to both of us.

I can see how the sniper rules can easily be abused. There's a reason why, in 40K, there are very, very few units who can snipe. In FoW, there are a lot of restrictions for snipers. Once you start giving snipers infinite ranges, it's really easy to unbalance them.

The "ignoring cover" rule really ought to be limited to flamers or any other weapon with a very short range; and if you still got a 5+ cover save against snipers, but could never take a 3+ "Take Cover" save, they might be more balanced as well.

I have been reading the main AT-43 forum , which one are you on it Cairnius?

LunaHound wrote:
I have been reading the main AT-43 forum , which one are you on it Cairnius?

Well there is someone there called Cairnius, might be a good start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cairnius wrote:One of the friends I started playing AT-43 with pretty much wanted to walk away from the table when he saw the indirect fire and sniper rules in action.

This is where my friend got to after we replayed turn one three times. The first two games he set up tyerrain and 'senario' and I sucked it up. But most players like to win, I dont want to sound unfair on the guy as he had a point, he is not the asort to tantrum if he doesnt win, but hew will complain if the rules offer him very little chance of doing so.

Cairnius wrote:
Personally, indirect fire rules are the only ones I really have any problem with in concept. It's too easy to knock down enemy squads...and I am giving up Red Blok in favor of U.N.A. in large part due to TacArms units being immune from Knockdowns and Kolossus units not getting that ability. For infantry squads with indirect fire weapons it takes them some time to get into effective range with Flamers or Grenade Launchers, but on vehicles Indirect Fire weapons can be just disgusting.

Now admittedly I forgeot to apply knockdown in the first two games, and decided not to even try and implement it during the third abortive game.

However with some modificartion it can be ok. I suggest you play to a rule by which a weapon that cannot hurt the target cannot knock it down. as Kolossi are the biggest vixctims of knockdown, big bases small units the answer presents itself with armour 12. This requires a blast with a S7 or more.

This rules out all blast weapons except flamers and K-warriors. Goliaths become immune to knockdown from human grenades, but Goliaths are not short of advantages and are criminally underpointed compared to Kolossi.
On the matter of flamers as we dont consider them blast weapons we ignore knockdown for them too. yes soldiers do go rolling on the ground to put out flames, but that would include TacArms. Blast is less of an issue so if you escapre the cinferno you can be up and moving, amd most likely will be.

Cairnius wrote:
The only time I've had a problem with the Sniper rules was in the Extraction mission in the main rulebook. My opponent was the player trying to extract the pilot, and I was trying to kill the pilot. He picks up the pilot, following activation I snipe the pilot and there was nothing he could do about. I played the mission properly, but it felt like a cheap win to both of us.

They really should have banned snipers from that scenario, it is an easy thing to do.

Cairnius wrote:
I can see how the sniper rules can easily be abused. There's a reason why, in 40K, there are very, very few units who can snipe. In FoW, there are a lot of restrictions for snipers. Once you start giving snipers infinite ranges, it's really easy to unbalance them.

Well in 40K snipers are just another type of line gunner with a few extra rules. The only true snipers in the game are Vindicares and Farseers with mind war, thats not enough for an imbalance and they are suitably expensive.

Cairnius wrote:
The "ignoring cover" rule really ought to be limited to flamers or any other weapon with a very short range; and if you still got a 5+ cover save against snipers, but could never take a 3+ "Take Cover" save, they might be more balanced as well.

I would play strict TLOS for snipers, so officers can hide within their own unit. This is also accurate a bit like the politician and his bodyguards, staff officers dress down and hide in the men. I would go further than TLOS also and allow bases from the same unit to also get in the way, so if you put a hero on a sculpted base you are not penalised for the cool model. This sohuld not aplply tom meics who have to rush about helping thwe wounded.

While on the subject of medics we decided from day one that if you get an auto kill on the penetration roll you cannot save the model with a medic, heroes not excepted. You cannot bandage up a messy corpse, not without a necromancer.

You had problems with mission extraction and snipers? You know that snipers only can shoot after the unit in question has moved and is within sight and that you can`t use it during overwatch?

Moving in and screening the wreck and then letting the pilot run most of the times does the job (double activation and postponing activation are quite helpful.) Extracting him brings you 5 VP and getting him the short distance to your own zone is not that difficult if you take care of the dangerous units, e.g. getting in CC with them.

You don´t need to wipe out the enemy, you just need to extract the pilot. Quite some beginners are so fixed an the standard 40K objective that the forget mission objectives.

Concentrating on the target won me my very first FoW game . And my enemy had 1200 AP while I just had measly 600 (well there was another player with 600 AP who was supposed to fight on my side, but he just tried to kill dug in soldiers by which in the end he accomplished nothing)

Well, *I* didn't have problems with the Extraction mission and snipers. My opponent did. I won, remember?

He was not focused on wiping me out at all - he played strictly to the objective. He's a TTW veteran, not a noob, and he's also a game designer so he adapts from game to game extremely well. If someone can pay too many games, it's him.

The sniping unit was a Wraith Golgoth, so my opponent couldn't screen with infantry, and I took his vehicles out quick-like first thing and it was a 2000 AP game per the rulebook so he didn't have many units to start with, being a Karman player. We knew that was part of the problem, of course, as Karmans are oft-described as really coming into their own only at 3000 AP which does seem to be the new "standard" for AT-43 a la 1,500 points for 40K.

I also had Atis and some Grims in the game so the unit that picked up the pilot was doomed. I teleported into the unit before the sniper killed the pilot. He never had a chance.

I think the Extraction mission would be much-improved if you were not allowed to snipe the pilot, and had to wipe out the escorting unit to a man before killing the pilot.

He was not focused on wiping me out at all - he played strictly to the objective. He's a TTW veteran, not a noob, and he's also a game designer so he adapts from game to game extremely well. If someone can pay too many games, it's him.

Then he still has some homework to do.

The sniping unit was a Wraith Golgoth, so my opponent couldn't screen with infantry, and I took his vehicles out quick-like first thing and it was a 2000 AP game per the rulebook so he didn't have many units to start with, being a Karman player. We knew that was part of the problem, of course, as Karmans are oft-described as really coming into their own only at 3000 AP which does seem to be the new "standard" for AT-43 a la 1,500 points for 40K. I also had Atis and some Grims in the game so the unit that picked up the pilot was doomed. I teleported into the unit before the sniper killed the pilot. He never had a chance.

Half of the units you only get as reserve and your opponent only 750. RP-sources are distributed in a way that the defender reaches them more easily or even has one already in his zone. It is not that difficult for him to get 200-250 RP on the first turn while you will only get 100-150 at best. This should take care of some of the problems. And he could have avoided Atis attacking this unit by moving it last and activating it first on the next round. With Karman and Therian chances for him at winning initiative should be somewhere around 50:50. Karman have slightly fewer units, but Therian are not that cheaper. I f you were able to take out all his vehicles he must have used them in a bad way. At least with our lists we never lost all of them. Also, since you were already using Frostbite rules he could have made use of them too, e.g. wall of steel.

Duncan, it's problematic when you make comments like "He still has some homework to do" as the internet has no tone. It sounds like a very superior, arrogant comment when you don't know the person I'm speaking of from Adam and when I've told you already that he's a TTW vet.

AT-43 rules are incredibly simplistic. If you can master 40K or FoW or Necromunda then AT-43 is child's play, and almost a boardgame by comparison. It's not very challenging to learn, which is part of what it wants to be by design, right?

No offense, but you didn't just say anything that would have helped my friend out. It didn't matter how many RP he had compared to mine, I started off with Atis and the Grims in my Assault forces, all the way across the board such that he was not allowed to shoot at them. I put her in a position in which she had a clear LOS of the whole area in front of the vehicle wreck. Moving the escorting unit last would not have helped him - he could not have gotten out of her LOS the round after he made the pilot pickup as there was no way he could have entirely-obscured her view of any part of the escorting unit, not after I had two rounds of whittling down his forces prior to his making the pickup.