So, kinda old news, but he's still gonna try to get all the Illegal Immigrants amnesty.

One of the greatest disappointments expressed by former President George W. Bush was his inability to provide amnesty for tens of millions of illegal aliens. But as is so often the case, the departure of one Presidential administration and the advent of another Presidential administration seldom means great change, loquacious rhetoric by the current President notwithstanding. The plan to provide amnesty for illegal aliens is a classic case in point.

President Barack Obama is determined to succeed where G.W. Bush failed. According to many published reports, he fully intends to grant amnesty to tens of millions of illegal aliens. In fact, granting amnesty to illegal aliens is on Obama's short list of priorities. That short list includes the nationalization of America's financial systems, the nationalization of America's healthcare and energy systems, expanding the wars in the Middle East, strengthening and increasing global agreements and associations, gun control (perhaps using international treaties where congressional legislation has failed), and amnesty to illegal aliens.

Watch for Obama to make a full-court press for an amnesty proposal next month. He has already appointed working groups to study strategies. Administration sources have said Obama wants amnesty legislation on his desk by this fall at the latest.

One way Obama is preparing the path for amnesty is contained in the massive stimulus bill already passed by Congress and signed into law. According to USA Today, "Tens of thousands of jobs created by the economic stimulus law could end up filled by illegal immigrants, particularly in big states such as California where undocumented workers are heavily represented in construction, experts on both sides of the issue say.

"Studies by two conservative think tanks estimate immigrants in the United States illegally could take 300,000 construction jobs, or 15% of the 2 million jobs that new taxpayer-financed projects are predicted to create."

What both Presidents Bush and Obama (and John McCain, too) refuse to acknowledge is the devastating effects that illegal immigration inflicts upon the overall health and safety of the people of United States. In strict financial terms, the numbers are staggering.

Here's the link http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin506.htm
I for one find it terrible.

Seal the borders completely, put them in the back of the immigration train timeline, deport the criminals, make 2 years of civics in economics/free enterprise/US voting and civic duty and then I'm all for it. The education should be a requirement of any person seeking citizenship. Thats a hard working group of mofos and just the right stuff for US citizens.

Or just annex Mexico as ten territories and continue to keep that border sealed like the Mexican army has currently. Sends some girl scout troops north to take the tar sands and its happy days here again baby.

Either way we need fine telenovellas. Ay Maria!

Unfortunately it is way too late to have a reasonable solution to illegal immigration. I think that giving amnesty will do nothing, but further increase the flow.

If illegal immigrants are really going to get near 15% of the "new" jobs then we're doing nothing but setting ourselves up for future pain. If they think that amnesty would make up for giving away the jobs to now "legal" immigrants than they have another thing coming.

I don't have a problem at with people coming to America. I live in an area that is in need of some serious culture, but if you're going to do it the wrong way I will never support you.

Or if they were really smart they would follow my idea and make Illegal immigration a Game Show.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/237477.page#683622

Amnesty? No. Full deportation.

Build a wall along the US Mesico Border with checkpoints for crossing, then have volunteers man the walls. Put the wall ten metres into US soil and a big sign that says, "Anyone who crosses this line will be shot by a bunch of angry Texans. May god have mercy on your poor dumbass soul." I think that would work. Oh and put lots of landmines in that no man zone too, Berlin wall in Texas for the win!

land mines nuff said

Don't people have the basic right to seek asylum? The US is one of the biggest and most successful nations on earth. Garrett, it's comments like yours that display the base stupidity and stubborness of American citizens when it comes to sharing your spacious country. It's a free world, guys. Learn to share.

NO problemo.

We'll just do like the Brits, and ship the undesirables to Oz...

im all for immegrant just not illegals
and are you calling me stupid
your the one who cant spell a name thats right infront of you

One typo does not make a fool.

I'm saying that your views are stupid. If you don't have anything serious or helpful to contribute to the discussion, keep your damn mouth shut. Saying "Uh, yeah, I think we should kill anyone who comes into our country without the people's permission." is a pointless argument that simply reflects foolish views.

Now; Australia has hundreds of people locked up in detentions centers. We'd gladly let them into the country, but the problem that during the John Howard years, the government was undeniably racist, and once Kevin Rudd became the PM, the GFC started. Right no, the government (and the people as well) are worried that all our jobs will go to the immigrants who would work for cheap labor.

So if Oz is worried about being overrun by immigrants, why should the US have to suck it up?

We're already stuck with at least 20 Million illegals, and I'm sure amnesty would bump that to 25 or 30.

But as Oz has the answers, why don't you take them?

I already told you; the government is worried they'll take jobs that our citizens need. And then there's the issue of space. Not much of Australia is habitable, so we'd have to build completely new towns just to hold them.

Now; Australia has hundreds of people locked up in detentions centers. We'd gladly let them into the country, but the problem that during the John Howard years, the government was undeniably racist, and once Kevin Rudd became the PM, the GFC started. Right no, the government (and the people as well) are worried that all our jobs will go to the immigrants who would work for cheap labor.

So why does America not have the right to do the same? If a person wishes to seek asylum they should do it through the proper legal means. Jumping a fence in Mexico is a legal means of entry into the United States and they should be told to GTFO.

Also, for Australia and the UK and all these other countries, they are islands essentially, and are hard to get into. In America, you just walk around a fence and you're in. It's so easy, that all the Mexicans that want to risk it can get in easily, so while you have hundreds in prison, we have millions just walking around free to do whatever they want, and not pay taxes, and get free money from the government for their kids born in the USA.

When people immigrate illegally, they're usually running from something. Isn't it the job, no, the duty of the greater nations to shelter unfortunates?

@Cheese: Oz first.

Cheese Elemental wrote:When people immigrate illegally, they're usually running from something. Isn't it the job, no, the duty of the greater nations to shelter unfortunates?

No. The duty of the greater nations is to help their citizens still be greater than everyone else. Not to let any poor shmuck with a sob story get in and not pay taxes. Heck, we don't even know any of these peoples records. All the immigrants could be murderers for all we know.

Bah, your nation is like that pale kid who won't go outside. Accept muliculturalism.

When people immigrate illegally, they're usually running from something. Isn't it the job, no, the duty of the greater nations to shelter unfortunates?

Nope. Its their job to protect and project the interest of the citizens that reside within the country. If they want to kick out all of the Mexicans than thats their perogative. In my opinion though illegal aliens should be dealt with like real aliens. Frozen and locked up in area 51.

Accept muliculturalism.

Multiculturism is a peice of gak.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Bah, your nation is like that pale kid who won't go outside. Accept muliculturalism.

Oh, believe me, America is multicultural. You leave my house and you can go to any Chinese food restaurant, Mexican food restaurant, Japanese steakhouse restaurant, Medieval Times restaurant, Cuban food restaurant, Indian food restaurant, Thai food restaurant, a restaurant that sells fish and chips, or bbq restaurant. Heck, foodwise, we're probably the most multicultural country in the world.

So basically, if I have the argument right:

- America is bad because they won't do what Australia refuses to do

Riight...

When people are immigrating illegally, they're usually fleeing from poor conditions and tyrannical governments. The great nations need to be helping, not striving to make themselves better than they already are. You know over a billion people in the world have no clean drinking water, and the western world could easily provide it?

But they don't, because they're too busy developing next-generation weapons and technology that we don't really need.

JohnHwangDD wrote:So basically, if I have the argument right:

- America is bad because they won't do what Australia refuses to do

Riight...

I didn't say that. I said that America is intolerant of people in need. Heck, most of the western world is. It's a flaw of humanity.

Cheese Elemental wrote:When people are immigrating illegally, they're usually fleeing from poor conditions and tyrannical governments. The great nations need to be helping, not striving to make themselves better than they already are. You know over a billion people in the world have no clean drinking water, and the western world could easily provide it?

But they don't, because they're too busy developing next-generation weapons and technology that we don't really need.

Yeah, Australia isn't part of the Western world, but why aren't ya'll saving the world.

Great yet another one of those America bashing threads. I come to the OT forum to waste time not to have to defend my country from foreigners who I doubt have even been in this country, and if they have been I doubt they saw the problems we have with illegal immigration.

Why they shouldn't have amnesty:
1. They don't pay taxes, yet use the school system and heathcare that taxes help pay for. This results in many hospitals going bankrupt when they can no longer afford to pay their bills. This also results in horible overcrowded schools, which decreases the value of the learning.
2. They don't speak ENGLISH. That is our country's language speak it or GTFO.
3. They don't have car insurance, so when they hit you you get screwed by your insurance and your rates go up.
4. They come here pregnant and have a baby, which for some reason is an american citizen so they get to stay here and continue to mooch.
5. They take plenty of jobs away from people. You might say that americans don't want them in the first place. But there is horrible competition for summer jobs for teenagers when the boss can hire people for less and work them harder.
6. The crime rate, a good portion of the jail population along the border are illegal mexican immigrants.
7. The drug problem, they smuggle in illegal drugs which cause so many problems here in the US.

So if we are intolerant of people in need, what the feth is Australia doing about these helpless people all around the world. And then why don't you let your illegal immigrants out of jail?

No. They're too busy distributing wealth from young to old, and from well to sick, along with mortgaging our future by running enormous deficits.

At least, if the US budget is anything to go by.

The largest line items in the US budget cover social welfare:
- Social Security ($700B)
- Mecicare / Medicaid ($750B)
Each of these are larger than all Defense spending combined.

- national debt ($160B)

When you look at "Defense", new weapons is very small.

mcfly wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:When people are immigrating illegally, they're usually fleeing from poor conditions and tyrannical governments. The great nations need to be helping, not striving to make themselves better than they already are. You know over a billion people in the world have no clean drinking water, and the western world could easily provide it?

But they don't, because they're too busy developing next-generation weapons and technology that we don't really need.

Yeah, Australia isn't part of the Western world, but why aren't ya'll saving the world.

Australia is part of the Western world, and don't you understand that I'm not defending my country.
So, you think these people who suffer under harsh conditions should be left outside to die while the 'great nations' ascend further?

You know over a billion people in the world have no clean drinking water, and the western world could easily provide it?

For some reason I don't think dragging Iceburgs half way across the world is all that easy.

So, you think these people who suffer under harsh conditions should be left outside to die while the 'great nations' ascend further?

Yep, great nations are great because the people make them so. If they want to be like us let them claw their way out of the shithole they live in, you don't become great by letting a bunch of people who have no right to be in your country into your country. If we want them here we will let them know when they ask. If we don't we will tell them to GTFO.

Ghost in the Darkness wrote:Great yet another one of those America bashing threads. I come to the OT forum to waste time not to have to defend my country from foreigners who I doubt have even been in this country, and if they have been I doubt they saw the problems we have with illegal immigration.

Why they shouldn't have amnesty:
1. They don't pay taxes, yet use the school system and heathcare that taxes help pay for. This results in many hospitals going bankrupt when they can no longer afford to pay their bills. This also results in horible overcrowded schools, which decreases the value of the learning.
2. They don't speak ENGLISH. That is our country's language speak it or GTFO.
3. They don't have car insurance, so when they hit you you get screwed by your insurance and your rates go up.
4. They come here pregnant and have a baby, which for some reason is an american citizen so they get to stay here and continue to mooch.
5. They take plenty of jobs away from people. You might say that americans don't want them in the first place. But there is horrible competition for summer jobs for teenagers when the boss can hire people for less and work them harder.
6. The crime rate, a good portion of the jail population along the border are illegal mexican immigrants.
7. The drug problem, they smuggle in illegal drugs which cause so many problems here in the US.

Just to provide counter points:
1. Illegal immigrants do pay taxes in many cases. They buy products, which have a sales tax. Many people who illegaly employ immigrants use fake social security numbers to avoid detection, social security tax is collected that is never paid out as the people generating it cannot claim social security. So, illegal immigrants do generate money for this country. As a teacher, yes, I do see the children of illegal immigrants or illegal immigrants themselves in the system. But public schools suck for much more than that reason. As for health care, most do not have insurance, so they aren't going to hospitals to get taken care of, they go to small clinics or deal with it at home.
2. Many do try to learn English, and enroll is ESL classes that generate revenue for their respective cities/states. The reason many of them do not learn English is that they are isolated into poor, immigrant dominated communities where English is not necessary to survival. Yes, this is a product of immigration, but this happens to all immigrant groups. Italian/Irish/German/Polish/Russian communities are quite common and were quite common in history. It took time for them to assimilate and learn English. Or, those that don't learn English do not have time or can afford to take ESL classes. English is one of the hardest languages to learn, and almost impossible to learn orally in a correct manner. Yes, you can learn it only from speaking and listening, but proper written English requires school, and without proper written English, it becomes very difficult to find upwardly mobile employment.
3. Many immigrants do have car insurance. A social security number is not required by many providers. There are many uninsured drivers, immigrant and not. Yes, I'm sure it is statistically true that an illegal immigrant is more likely to not have it, but if we made it easier and less frightening, without the fear of deportation, harassment, or price gouging, then more would be insured.
4. The whole "born in America, American" thing is rather important to the history of this country. If we take that away, shouldn't we all then have to prove ourselves? And how would we do that? Not to mention, most "welfare queens" and the like are actually white americans in rural areas like Appalachia. Many illegal immigrants don't make use of social services because they are afraid of being found out.
5. Yes, I'm sure teenage americans are lining up to pick fruit, pluck chickens, dig ditches. I'm more than willing to admit that immigrants do take many entry level, manual labor positions. But why the outrage at them? People that often sacrificed much of their life to enter a country where the least well paying job is still better than work in their own country. Why isn't the outraged aimed at the people who hire immigrants to cut costs? These employers sacrifice american jobs for a higher profit, but also lower cost for consumers. If you enjoy cheap fruit, cheap carwashes, going out to dinner at most restaurants, then thank the people willing to work for less than minimum wage.
6. The majority of people in Jail in California are non-violent drug offenders. The vast majority of people in jail are working class people who are more likely to use drugs as a coping mechanism for a marginalized existence. Working 60 hours a week, for maybe a few dollars an hour at best, living away from their families (most illegal immigrants are people separated from their family), seems like a hard go of it.
7. Most illegal immigrants are not drug runners, some American citizens are drug runners. The people who traffic drugs tend to have side business trafficking people, but deporting everyone wouldn't fix that, if anything, just increase their business. Many illegal immigrants come to this country to avoid getting involved in the drug business that is so prevalent in other countries.

Anyway, to the actual post, I agree that Amnesty would probably not be a solid answer, the question is too complicated. But, mass deportation would not work either.

^Ah, a good argument. Well that saved me a lot of time.

You see, not permitting people to have asylum and be safe from dangerous governments and conditions is violating a basic human right.

And I'm not bashing America; blame your ex-president for tarnishing your image, though.

The general solution to illegal immigration is likely to entail an increase in the overall number of people admitted to the nation, and more stringent enforcement of the laws which are supposed to prevent employers from hiring illegals. In order to smooth the transition amnesty is likely to be offered, but it will come with strings attached and is unlikely to be permanent.

Of course, none of these things will fully address the issue. That will only happen when we begin to take a serious interest in developing Mexico as an economic partner.

"In fact, granting amnesty to illegal aliens is on Obama's short list of priorities. That short list includes the nationalization of America's financial systems, the nationalization of America's healthcare and energy systems, expanding the wars in the Middle East, strengthening and increasing global agreements and associations, gun control (perhaps using international treaties where congressional legislation has failed), and amnesty to illegal aliens."

The same old talking points, Nationalize, Illegals, gun control. Again Illegals are not to blame for America's woes, they do make a good scape-goat though.

Good. I guess things are turning out better now that the empty-headed country bumpkin is out of the presidency.

One thing I think should be mentioned more often in this debate:

Population growth, no matter how it occurs, is a good thing. The US is in the universally enviable position of having abundant arable land, fresh water, and mineral wealth in combination with a robust civil society. Throw in a healthy dose of immigration to keep the demographics in the right order, and the Ponzi scheme that is the Imperial project should keep rolling for some time. Especially considering that China and India are beginning to see a leveling of their population growth curve.

Cheese Elemental wrote:
I didn't say that. I said that America is intolerant of people in need. Heck, most of the western world is. It's a flaw of humanity.

Wow. I'm not going to throw a wall of info at you, since this is the internets and anything "posted in a forum" is automatically suspect. But I would encourage you to go have a look at how much money the US sinks into foriegn aid to countries that can really use it for improving the human condition. Go look at the number of times we've used our aircraft carriers as floatels for people in areas that have been bumrushed by natural disaster. Did we miss a few tricks? Yeah, we did. Did we save a few asses? No, we've saved many. Have we used ALL of our wealth to try and "save" every last person on the planet. No. Should we? Nope. To do so is to deny that it is a hard cruel fething world sometimes and while humans may care about each other a tidal wave doesn't give a rats ass. Neither do volcanos. We have done what we thought was best, we've done what we could.

Ok there's plenty of Idealism here, but lets be realistic.

Sealing the boarders and deporting all Illegal's (Those that can be found, which I'm will be bet isn't many )would in all likelihood be:

A) Time consuming.
B) Massively expensive, the manpower and equipment required would be a of a far greater cost that just allowing illegal immigrants free roam.
C) Counter productive, as you're assuming another country will take them back. Certainly in the case of somewhere like Zimbabwe this is unlikely.

Also we need to accept that fact that its IS going to happen. Unless you have machine gun towers every 100 meters at every land border and unless every cargo crate and truck is manually searched at entry, people are going to find a way in. Of course this is expensive and ineffective.

Lets look at taxes. Illegal's pay no direct tax, they also claim no benefits (before some brings that up!). Most illegal's are likely involved in low paid cash in hand work (far below minimum wage) or are committing crime. Both are detrimental to the country. It's effectively a loose/loose situation, they live off the radar in appalling poverty and tie up police time and allow unscrupulous business owners to get away with some truly abhorrent practices.

Amnesty honestly to me seems to be the logical way forward. It allows them to start paying taxes and frees up the resources that previously were used to track them down. Its better for the coffers in every way. I can't see how its in anyone's interest for Illegal immigrants to remain so.

Most of the arguments I've heard against this just seem to stem from sheer bloody mindedness.

Actually illegal immigrants commit far fewer crimes then citizens on average. If you think about it it make good sense. Many of these people risked their lives to get to America. They're not about to throw it all away if they can help it. They try to keep a low profile.

Ratbarf wrote:Build a wall along the US Mesico Border with checkpoints for crossing, then have volunteers man the walls. Put the wall ten metres into US soil and a big sign that says, "Anyone who crosses this line will be shot by a bunch of angry Texans. May god have mercy on your poor dumbass soul." I think that would work. Oh and put lots of landmines in that no man zone too, Berlin wall in Texas for the win!

Are you trying to outcrazy the Frazzled?

Ratbarf wrote:

Accept muliculturalism.

Multiculturism is a peice of gak.

That might explain why I wasn't allowed to sit in the front of the fething bus.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Good. I guess things are turning out better now that the empty-headed country bumpkin is out of the presidency.

No, there not better. Bush made some poor choices, but the Congress has more than enough blood on their hands. Khornish to some extent.

@Cheese I usually dig you man, but when you start using the "Bush is a tard hurr, hurr" argument I'm mighty tempted to ignore you. Besides I'm a country bumpkin and it's not really that bad. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Accept muliculturalism.

Accept these words: feth Off.

if he does this then your stuck just like the UK is
no idea how many illegals are here, what they are doing or who they are.
most factory workers have lost jobs due to "illegals" working for less.
most of which will work here and send money home (meaning with the high % of them we have the country is losing money fast)

worsed idea ever (well, give it time, im sure someone can top this)

oh, i forgot to mention that illegals here have more fething rights than the people who grew up in this country
and they tend to pull the minority card to gain any advantages they will want.

Lovely stuff JD, a tad reactionary for my tastes however. Do you have any facts to back this up, or is this pure tabloid hyperbole?

An amnesty solves pretty much all of your problems Ghost.

The bottom line is, denying immigration is either based on xenophobia or good old-fashioned selfishness. It's being unwilling to slightly impact on your comforatble life to help others who have things a hell of a lot worse. Open the borders, that's what I say. Because I was born on this bit of rock I get a nice house, good education and a great standard of living. Oh, sorry, but by some random biological chance you were born on a different bit of rock. Nope, sorry, you can't have some of this. Enjoy poverty!

Surely one of the major points of an amnesty is to bring illegals inside the system and normalise them, so they WOULD pay taxes and so on.

I think the main issue at heart is that when a country becomes so multicultural it may lose it's own identity. For reference see the Roman Empire. I don't think JD has a problem with multiculturalism, I think he has a problem with someone saying, "just accept it and don't bitch about it".

@Kilkrazy: I think you're right to some extent, but what keeps Employer A from just dumping the now formally illegal alien and picking up another illegal alien to fill his/her place. Regardless of attached benefits Employer A will now have to pay to the standards of a citizen (taxes, medicare, etc...). People who use illegal immigrants ignore certain rules and regulations.

Then why don't we stop going after the Illegals, that will just be replaced, and start going after the Bastards who hire them. They just don't fear the penalties for hiring Illegals. Start mandatory 2 year sentences. America has no one identity, it's called a melting pot for a reason. Romes fall had nothing to do with losing it's Identity and more to do with bad rulers.

If there aren't any Illegals, there won't be anybody for the Bastards to hire.

Besides, it's not like an Illegal shows up with his Mexican Drivers License and Mexican Passport, asking for a job. They're not retards, you know. They get fake IDs just like any high school student.

JohnHwangDD wrote:No. They're too busy distributing wealth from young to old, and from well to sick, along with mortgaging our future by running enormous deficits.

At least, if the US budget is anything to go by.

The largest line items in the US budget cover social welfare:
- Social Security ($700B)
- Mecicare / Medicaid ($750B)
Each of these are larger than all Defense spending combined.

- national debt ($160B)

When you look at "Defense", new weapons is very small.

No idea where your figures are from, but a scan of the internet finding about 5 or 6 sources revealed to me that defense and social security are roughly equal, some give one as bigger, some give the other as bigger, whilst medicare is about 1/2 to 2/3 as much.

Ratbarf wrote:Yep, great nations are great because the people make them so. If they want to be like us let them claw their way out of the shithole they live in, you don't become great by letting a bunch of people who have no right to be in your country into your country. If we want them here we will let them know when they ask. If we don't we will tell them to GTFO.

You are aware of the history of your own country and that you are a nation of recent immigrants, right? (and I apply that to both the US and Canada)

dogma wrote:One thing I think should be mentioned more often in this debate:

Population growth, no matter how it occurs, is a good thing. The US is in the universally enviable position of having abundant arable land, fresh water, and mineral wealth in combination with a robust civil society. Throw in a healthy dose of immigration to keep the demographics in the right order, and the Ponzi scheme that is the Imperial project should keep rolling for some time. Especially considering that China and India are beginning to see a leveling of their population growth curve.

You have nowhere near as much fresh land and water as you seem to think. You do have plenty, but, for example, water use is almost laughably frivolous in the US. One of the biggest reasons for this is the amount of meat you eat, which translates to about 20x as much water use to produce the large amount of crops used to feed them as if you got your nutrition from the crops themselves, resulting in the highest water use per person in the entire world by a HUGE margin, even over European countries.

grizgrin wrote:
Wow. I'm not going to throw a wall of info at you, since this is the internets and anything "posted in a forum" is automatically suspect. But I would encourage you to go have a look at how much money the US sinks into foriegn aid to countries that can really use it for improving the human condition.

Far less as a % of GDP than most Western countries. Actual raw cash, yes, but % of GDP, no.

Go look at the number of times we've used our aircraft carriers as floatels for people in areas that have been bumrushed by natural disaster. Did we miss a few tricks? Yeah, we did. Did we save a few asses? No, we've saved many. Have we used ALL of our wealth to try and "save" every last person on the planet. No. Should we? Nope. To do so is to deny that it is a hard cruel fething world sometimes and while humans may care about each other a tidal wave doesn't give a rats ass. Neither do volcanos. We have done what we thought was best, we've done what we could.

There have been plus and minus points. Use of the American miitary machine has been mixed, though few people will admit to any good from it at all.

JD21290 wrote:

Accept muliculturalism.

Accept these words: feth Off.

if he does this then your stuck just like the UK is
no idea how many illegals are here, what they are doing or who they are.
most factory workers have lost jobs due to "illegals" working for less.
most of which will work here and send money home (meaning with the high % of them we have the country is losing money fast)

worsed idea ever (well, give it time, im sure someone can top this)

oh, i forgot to mention that illegals here have more fething rights than the people who grew up in this country
and they tend to pull the minority card to gain any advantages they will want.

Please can I drop round and borrow your Daily Mail? (And yes, I can swap you for my Guardian )

Greebynog wrote:Lovely stuff JD, a tad reactionary for my tastes however. Do you have any facts to back this up, or is this pure tabloid hyperbole?

An amnesty solves pretty much all of your problems Ghost.

The bottom line is, denying immigration is either based on xenophobia or good old-fashioned selfishness. It's being unwilling to slightly impact on your comforatble life to help others who have things a hell of a lot worse. Open the borders, that's what I say. Because I was born on this bit of rock I get a nice house, good education and a great standard of living. Oh, sorry, but by some random biological chance you were born on a different bit of rock. Nope, sorry, you can't have some of this. Enjoy poverty!

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Fifty wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:No. They're too busy distributing wealth from young to old, and from well to sick, along with mortgaging our future by running enormous deficits.

At least, if the US budget is anything to go by.

The largest line items in the US budget cover social welfare:
- Social Security ($700B)
- Mecicare / Medicaid ($750B)
Each of these are larger than all Defense spending combined.

- national debt ($160B)

When you look at "Defense", new weapons is very small.

No idea where your figures are from, but a scan of the internet finding about 5 or 6 sources revealed to me that defense and social security are roughly equal, some give one as bigger, some give the other as bigger, whilst medicare is about 1/2 to 2/3 as much.

You can go to any website and it will be clear.

Defense (total = $650B) is clearly less than Social Security. Medicare and medicaid combined are about $750B, which is clearly larger.

Defense is much more than just new weapons (<$80B).

So going back...

Cheese elemetal wrote:But they don't, because they're too busy developing next-generation weapons and technology that we don't really need.

So let's go to the facts:
- $700B for Social Security
- $750B for Mecicare & Medicaid
- $160B for national debt
...
- $80B for next-gen weapons (included in $650 for "Defense"

So I said "No. They're too busy distributing wealth from young to old, and from well to sick, along with mortgaging our future by running enormous deficits.", that's what the facts above would seem to support.

So Fifty, even in that large post, I didn't hear what you think. Should we say that all the illegal immigrants get amnesty, or not?

Problem: open borders
20MM illegale immigrants, the vast majority fo which are hard working.

Solution. After background check, you can stay if you do 6 months time working to put the triple layer defense wall/moats now with gators up in Canada and Mexico (and Frazzled needs a new house with a deck). See, everyone benefits!

Once again, leave it to Frazzled to solve all problems.

It doesn't give anyone a good impression when someone that multiculturalism is having foods from different countries available

I agree with what's been said on both accounts, in favour or against the immigrants: not everyone is a shady individual who wants to sell drugs, rob houses and kill people. Saying that just because you're a mexican you're undoubtly a bad person and should be kicked out is just plain idiotic. That's prejudice of the worst kind from people who say they're "multicultural".

Heck, I've had my dad's car broken into and damn nearly stolen by two ukrainians who didn't have a dime to cover the expenses. But the fact that they were trying to steal doesn't make them bad people, nor the fact that they couldn't pay. Those two, as well as the relatively recent influx of prostitutes, doesn't mean that every single ukrainian is a hooker or a thief.

Sadly, though, that's how they're seen around here. As well as everyone with the slightest eastern-european accent, even if it was the nuclear physicist (true story) working on Porto's subway as a regular worker.

It's a tricky matter, no doubt, but as an open minded european I sincerely see the benefits of multiculturalism on a stagnant society. If they are willing to do the work no-one else wants, or they can do someone's work better, I'm all for it.

On a side-note, English is not by any means difficult to learn. Like any other language it might be difficult for a 30-or-so year old to speak without showing their origins, but have you looked at german, russian, chinese, japanese, even portuguese? Just the accentuation would drive you crazy.

oh, i forgot to mention that illegals here have more fething rights than the people who grew up in this country
and they tend to pull the minority card to gain any advantages they will want.

The story I love the most about overzealous British Political Correctness is the bloke who got arrested for having a St George's Cross Flag flying in the back of his car to cover his speakers in a polish neighbourhood in England and was pulled over due to what the police described as offensive conduct.

Not being able to fly your own bloody flag on your own bloody soil that you paid for in your own bloody blood? The BNP sure looks less crazy everyday folks.

Where on Earth do you get these stories?

I've never heard of any of these things, and I listen to Today on Radio 4 every morning.

Ratbarf wrote:

oh, i forgot to mention that illegals here have more fething rights than the people who grew up in this country
and they tend to pull the minority card to gain any advantages they will want.

The story I love the most about overzealous British Political Correctness is the bloke who got arrested for having a St George's Cross Flag flying in the back of his car to cover his speakers in a polish neighbourhood in England and was pulled over due to what the police described as offensive conduct.

Not being able to fly your own bloody flag on your own bloody soil that you paid for in your own bloody blood? The BNP sure looks less crazy everyday folks.

That never happened.

I will personally bet you whatever sum of money you fancy, that that never happened. The BNP are daft fethwit racists, make no mistake. Here's some quotes from promenant members to help you out.

“The electors of Millwall did not back a Post-Modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan 'Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate.” said by Nick Griffin, BNP leader.

“Mein Kampf is my bible” (Mein Kampf is a book written by Hitler in which he set out his Nazi philosophy and practice.) said by John Tyndall, BNP founder and former leader.

“The sick minds who would have us believe that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz are completely twisted.” said by Tony Lecomber

“I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the earth is flat…I have reached the conclusion that the ‘extermination’ tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter day witch-hysteria.” said by Nick Griffin, BNP leader.

“Many who feel that Hitler was right do not believe it is safe yet to state such views openly. But times will change.” said by John Tyndall, BNP founder and former leader.

Nick Griffin (leader): "ON RACE “Without the White race, nothing matters. [Other right-wing parties] believe that the answer to the race question is integration and a futile attempt to create “Black Britons”, while we affirm that non-Whites have no place here at all and will not rest until every last one has left our land”"

Mark Collet (party’s director of publicity): "ON AIDS A “friendly disease because blacks, drug users and gays have it.”

If that hasn't hasn't convinced you, please explain how stating your party is in favour of an all-white Britain isn't racist.

It seems to me that this thread is just britain and austrailia vs. american stereotypes
all you brits seem to be going by american stereotypes to prove you points

That never happened.

Mcleans Magazine runs these little snippets about the weird goings-on of the world at the bottom of the page. This one appeared in the "How they do it in..." one about a year ago.


Hmm, haven't heard those quotes before.


But so what if its racist?






LOL just yanking your chain there a bit. I never did understand though why a Nazi wouldn't be proud to claim that they killed 6 million jews. I thought that was one of their magor goals/accomplishments as a regime?

PS: by major accomplishment I meant it was a rather huge undertaking, not that it was in any way positive.

Ratbarf, I in no way think you endorse those quotes, but there are many, many more, even more despicable quotes from the BNP leadership. The average BNP voter tends to be uner-educated and ignorant, not malicious. The leadership is another matter though. They disgust me.

I would probably vote BNP if I was British, but thats more because I don't really like political correctness at all.... And they don't really seem to give a crap about that so I like that about them.

Ratbarf wrote:I would probably vote BNP if I was British, but thats more because I don't really like political correctness at all.... And they don't really seem to give a crap about that so I like that about them.

I'm glad you're not a member of the British electorate then. You think a lack of respect for basic politeness is more important than rampant racism? Good world view fella.

Not necesarily, I don't consider it impolite to say Merry Christmas but my school board won't allow it.

So let me get this straight, Ratbarf... You would vote for a Neo-Nazi government who would persecute homosexuals, blacks and Jews?

What kind of values are they teaching kids nowadays?

okay know im serious
we have tried this before and it failed
okay we give the amnesty then what do we change immegration laws or do every 10 or 20 years we give amnesty so we dont have problems
illegal immegrants are a plague on our society and they must be dealt with accordingly
they take jobs from contractoers resturant workers and other american jobs
know alot of you say"they take jobs we dont want" thts true but they also take jobs from teens such as
1: cashiers
2: laborers
3 a gak load of stuff

mcfly wrote:So Fifty, even in that large post, I didn't hear what you think. Should we say that all the illegal immigrants get amnesty, or not?

I am undecided about specifics. Broadly speaking though, my position lies with that of the last person whom I quoted, who wonders why being born in a certain place should give you more or less rights, opportunities and resonsibilities that someone else.

JohnHwangDD, I did go and look at "any website". I looked at 5 or 6. They gave me the information I reported, which differs from yours. That is why I asked for your source. I am not disputing that you found such data, but I, in an admittedly short internet search, did not. I figured you must know where your numbers come from, so it must be quicker to ask you than perform a rigourous search myself.

Ratbarf, I would suggest that out of petty-minded but grand-scale racism and political correctness, the latter is the lesser of two evils. I have no confidence in the main political parties. I either vote Green, where it is clear they cannot win and the "big three" are safe, purely to raise the profile of environmental issues, or, where necessary, I vote for the big parties to keep out exremists. I have never lived in an area where I could, or needed to, vote against the BNP. Last time, I voted against the odious George Galloway and his equally despicable Respect party, who purport to be a party that represents Islamic and other minority interests, but is actually just as unpleasant as the BNP. I can't remember who I voted for - it was whoever was most likely to beat him. Sadly I am still represented in parliament by this pillock.

http://www.georgegalloway.com/

garret wrote:okay know im serious
we have tried this before and it failed
okay we give the amnesty then what do we change immegration laws or do every 10 or 20 years we give amnesty so we dont have problems
illegal immegrants are a plague on our society and they must be dealt with accordingly
they take jobs from contractoers resturant workers and other american jobs
know alot of you say"they take jobs we dont want" thts true but they also take jobs from teens such as
1: cashiers
2: laborers
3 a gak load of stuff

If they do the same job, or better, with more dedication or zeal because they know they can't afford to be fired, why shouldn't a boss hire them? I like how you say "american jobs"? A plague on the society? How about you look at the "citizens" who kill, steal, evade taxes, throw their trash in the middle of the street, in sum, are doing worse for your country than those illegal immigrants. Yet, stemming from the stories, clichés, etc you heard they are the worst kind of crap possible, even though it's just a stereotype. Is that your land you're stepping on? Two important facts here, your family probably immigrated too, and now I wonder how they'd fit under your classifications, and Adolf Hitler once preached the same as you did.

I understand they are a case for concern but the problem isn't only what you perceive as the negative in the situation. They are people, and just because some are criminals doesn't make them all criminals. For what it matters, I'm not against americans (even though you might think so), I'm against certain ways of thinking.

That never happened.

I will personally bet you whatever sum of money you fancy, that that never happened. The BNP are daft fethwit racists, make no mistake.

So please care to explain how the BNP's votes are rising at a very high rate.

its due to more and more people getting pissed off with all the fething immagration problems.
now, if there was a reasonable way then sure, people would take it, but there isnt, so more and more people are tipping towards the BNP as a solution.

With reference specifically to the UK, it should be noted that there are over 400 million EU citizens who have the legal right to live and work in the UK, so worrying about a few thousand illegals from Morocco or Iraq is pretty pointless in regard to the overall issue.

The BNP would no doubt say they don't want the 2 million Euros here, but Britain has exported 4 million of our people to Euroland (according to figures given on Radio 4) so we are up on the good side of the deal.

With reference to illegal immigrants taking natives' jobs anywhere, it is the employers' fault for taking on the illegals. They do it because they know they can exploit the illegals for very low wages and fear no come-back. Employees who flout this part of the law are likely to flout other parts such as Health and Safety, and payment of taxes.

As long as some countries are miserable, crappy holes compared to others, people will want to get out of their rotten country and go somewhere better. The way to stop this is to help development in crappy countries and make them not crappy any more.

Destrado wrote:
If they do the same job, or better, with more dedication or zeal because they know they can't afford to be fired, why shouldn't a boss hire them? I like how you say "american jobs"? A plague on the society? How about you look at the "citizens" who kill, steal, evade taxes, throw their trash in the middle of the street, in sum, are doing worse for your country than those illegal immigrants. Yet, stemming from the stories, clichés, etc you heard they are the worst kind of crap possible, even though it's just a stereotype. Is that your land you're stepping on? Two important facts here, your family probably immigrated too, and now I wonder how they'd fit under your classifications, and Adolf Hitler once preached the same as you did.

I understand they are a case for concern but the problem isn't only what you perceive as the negative in the situation. They are people, and just because some are criminals doesn't make them all criminals. For what it matters, I'm not against americans (even though you might think so), I'm against certain ways of thinking.

We actually hate all the citizens you kill steal and evade taxes and want to kick them out of the country too, because the prisons are starting to become overcrowded.

I see criminals who kill as worse than illegal immigrants, but I wouldn't mind deporting all of them to a tiny pacific island.

My great grandfather immigrated from Italy legally back in the early 1910's. He made enough money to become successful. So, the Italian side of my family did immigrate, but the difference is they did it the right way, the legal way, and they learned the language. And they had a cool last name. Turgiletto.

So they do fit under my classifications, and Hitler was a great speaker, and it never mattered what he said, it only mattered what he felt like doing. Just because he said something didn't mean he wanted it.

Mod:

We should keep off the topic of Hitler in this thread. He has no essential relevance to the death penalty.

If you don't enforce your laws, why even have them on the books? The US government needs to either: 1) repeal most of the immigration laws and just let everyone in, or 2) figure out reasonable ways to enforce immigration. Nothing has been done about it, because people in Washington don't look at the long-picture, they look at the next election, and that's just human nature.

I don't support amnesty, because it devalues all the work that legal immigrants have done.

I wouldn't oppose increasing the numbers of legal immigrants from Latin America. Illegals in the US could even stay, but they'd count against these totals.

The problem is that if the US has an open border and lets anyone it, it creates a lot of problems. Criminals would come. The average wages paid would drop since there would be more people competing for jobs. So, we can't let everyone in. There needs to be a number established (and I don't know if that's 100 or 1,000 or 1,000,000) of immigrants allowed each year (which, there is), and it needs to be enforced. And illegals need to be deported.

Is it fair? Probably not. But, the US doesn't have to let anyone immigrate.

dietrich wrote:If you don't enforce your laws, why even have them on the books? The US government needs to either: 1) repeal most of the immigration laws and just let everyone in, or 2) figure out reasonable ways to enforce immigration. Nothing has been done about it, because people in Washington don't look at the long-picture, they look at the next election, and that's just human nature.

I don't support amnesty, because it devalues all the work that legal immigrants have done.

I wouldn't oppose increasing the numbers of legal immigrants from Latin America. Illegals in the US could even stay, but they'd count against these totals.

The problem is that if the US has an open border and lets anyone it, it creates a lot of problems. Criminals would come. The average wages paid would drop since there would be more people competing for jobs. So, we can't let everyone in. There needs to be a number established (and I don't know if that's 100 or 1,000 or 1,000,000) of immigrants allowed each year (which, there is), and it needs to be enforced. And illegals need to be deported.

Is it fair? Probably not. But, the US doesn't have to let anyone immigrate.

Criminals would come? Son look at th4e prison populations in California, Texas, and the other border states. They've been coming since Pancho Villa. El paso is turning into a war zone, and the feds intercepted messages from a Mexican drug cartel to start killing US cops who try to arrest them or seize their drugs.

Ratbarf wrote:I would probably vote BNP if I was British, but thats more because I don't really like political correctness at all.... And they don't really seem to give a crap about that so I like that about them.

Then you're a racist idiot.

According to the BNP 2001 general election manifesto, “native Britons”, who they claim can only be white, would be given priority in the job market. “Non-whites” would instantly become second class citizens in Britain.

Any black person who commits a crime would also be thrown out of the country, even those who were born here.

Mixed race relationships would be outlawed.

Privately, the BNP leaders have continued to air their real political views. “All black people will be repatriated, even if they were born here”, BNP leader Nick Griffin told Wales on Sunday in 1996. “We must preserve the white race, because it has been responsible for all the good things in civilisation”.

According to party number two, Tony Lecomber, the preservation of the white race can be done through a racial eugenic programme.

The BNP supported ethnic cleansing in the Kosovan crisis. “The Serbs’ real crime isn’t the harshness with which they have expelled so many of the Albanian Muslims who having become the majority in the Kosovan heart of Serbia by a mixture of immigration, a high birth rate, and low level ethnic cleansing of the native Serbs… No! The real crime in the eyes of the powerful advocates of a multi-racial New World Order is for any people to demand the right to preserve their own identity and freedom”.

The BNP says they have no truck with “race hate”. Another outrageous lie. The jokes, caricatures, cartoons and articles depict black people as stupid, criminally minded and ugly. Time and again, BNP publications talk about the genetic superiority of the white race.

Several BNP members have put this racism into practice:

Former National Organiser Richard Edmonds was convicted for his part in a vicious bottle attack on a mixed race couple in a pub in East London 1993

BNP supporter Stuart Kerr was sentenced to 12 years imprisonment for firebombing an Asian shop in Chichester, Sussex

BNP leader Nick Griffin was convicted of incitement to racial hatred in April 1998

The BNP organiser for Waltham Forest, Alan Gould, was convicted of racially abusing people in a pub in 2000

Former BNP member David Copeland was sentenced to six life sentences after planting bombs in London. He wanted to start a race war.

On other occasions, the BNP has glorified racist attacks. In 1991, the BNP newspaper gloated after several BNP supporters stabbed an African immigrant at London Bridge station. The victim had his “kidney surgically removed”, the paper boasted. In the same year, the BNP leadership whipped up a racist riot in Bermondsey, London, and led an attack on an anti-racist meeting that was protesting against the BNP headquaters in Welling. Thirteen people needed hospital treatment.

A BNP presence has almost always culminated in “race hate”. When Derek Beackon was elected as a BNP councillor in Millwall, racist attacks in the area soared by 300%

Other "friends" of the leadership include William Pierce of "The Turner Diaries" fame, David DUke former grand wizard of the KKK, and innumerable other far right groups throughout the world.

Oh, they also deny the Holocaust happened and if it did then "they got what was coming to them".

Mein Kampf is my bible

When we get to power our opponents will be swept away like flies

both quotes from the BNP founder.

"Because they're against political correctness".


Or the quotes from one of their candiadtes, one Nik Erikson

I've never understood why so many men have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the feminazi myth machine into believing that rape is such a serious crime ... Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal.

To suggest that rape, when conducted without violence, is a serious crime is like suggesting that forcefeeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence. A woman would be more inconvenienced by having her handbag snatched.

LOL @ rape !

To suggest that rape, when conducted without violence, is a serious crime is like suggesting that forcefeeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence. A woman would be more inconvenienced by having her handbag snatched.



LOL @ rape !

Everyone know rape is just s.. you didn't know you wanted at the moment.

If amnesty is given to illegal immigrants, I say the best solution is to move them into a tax bracket that is 2 steps ABOVE what they actually earn, to help offset all the time they have been living tax-free.

But I would much prefer to see them booted out of the country. Many of them are disrespectful and donkey-caves. They openly say crude and disgusting things about women because most assume you don't know Spanish. THAT really pisses me off.

And English should be made to be the US language. If you want to live here, be able to communicate with us, and read the proper documents you need to fill out.

Mattlov wrote:If amnesty is given to illegal immigrants, I say the best solution is to move them into a tax bracket that is 2 steps ABOVE what they actually earn, to help offset all the time they have been living tax-free.

But I would much prefer to see them booted out of the country. Many of them are disrespectful and donkey-caves. They openly say crude and disgusting things about women because most assume you don't know Spanish. THAT really pisses me off.

And English should be made to be the US language. If you want to live here, be able to communicate with us, and read the proper documents you need to fill out.

QFT
A little while back, a radio station near me had a Mexican immigrant (legal) who worked at their station as an intern drive his car around and read the road signs. He misunderstood about half of them. It freaked me out to be driving in a very Mexican area every day, let me tell you.

1.Everyone on both sides of the argument needs to tone it down. You can emphatically disagree with someone without insulting everyone's culture, country, or beliefs. Name calling and cursing serve no purpose.

2. Illegal immigration is up to each country to determine for itself.
3. In my opinion, the problem is not immigration. It is illegal immigration.
4. Until we have control of the border, illegal immigration will continue.
5, One of the primary duties of any country is preserving its territorial integrity. Without that, it is hard to have a country.
6. when you have 20 million illegals, finding and deporting them is impossible, without the police or military being able to stop everyone and demand papers.
7. The problem I have with illegals is that they do not pay all taxes they should, and can even vote. If you are not a citizen, you should not vote. All it takes to register to vote in many places in the US is to get a driver's license. Which you do not have to prove citezenship to get. Then you can fill out a voter registration card on the spot. Then when you go to your polling location you show your voter registration card and you driver's license and you can vote.
8. The way around the illegals not paying taxes is just have a flat sales tax.
9. Most illegal immigrants are hard working. Let them stay and pay taxes and provide a path to ciezenship. But make them learn our language and culture. You want to be here? Fine, but you came here, we didn't go there, so you need to accept what you find here.
10. Goes back to anbother point. It is all moost until we gain control of the border to halt or at least dramatically slow the flood. Give us time to assimilate what we already have. If not, our culture will drown in the flood.

What about the tens of thousands of Americans who can't read and sign with x. OR the hundreds of thousands who drive drunk and kill every holiday. Does that scare you any less.

sexiest_hero wrote:What about the tens of thousands of Americans who can't read and sign with x. OR the hundreds of thousands who drive drunk and kill every holiday. Does that scare you any less.

No, but I wasn't talking about them, I was talking about Illegal Immigrants.
They scare me just as much.

Mango wrote:1.Everyone on both sides of the argument needs to tone it down. You can emphatically disagree with someone without insulting everyone's culture, country, or beliefs. Name calling and cursing serve no purpose.

......

Well said, Mango!

Mango wrote:1.Everyone on both sides of the argument needs to tone it down. You can emphatically disagree with someone without insulting everyone's culture, country, or beliefs. Name calling and cursing serve no purpose.

2. Illegal immigration is up to each country to determine for itself.
3. In my opinion, the problem is not immigration. It is illegal immigration.
4. Until we have control of the border, illegal immigration will continue.
5, One of the primary duties of any country is preserving its territorial integrity. Without that, it is hard to have a country.
6. when you have 20 million illegals, finding and deporting them is impossible, without the police or military being able to stop everyone and demand papers.
7. The problem I have with illegals is that they do not pay all taxes they should, and can even vote. If you are not a citizen, you should not vote. All it takes to register to vote in many places in the US is to get a driver's license. Which you do not have to prove citezenship to get. Then you can fill out a voter registration card on the spot. Then when you go to your polling location you show your voter registration card and you driver's license and you can vote.
8. The way around the illegals not paying taxes is just have a flat sales tax.
9. Most illegal immigrants are hard working. Let them stay and pay taxes and provide a path to ciezenship. But make them learn our language and culture. You want to be here? Fine, but you came here, we didn't go there, so you need to accept what you find here.
10. Goes back to anbother point. It is all moost until we gain control of the border to halt or at least dramatically slow the flood. Give us time to assimilate what we already have. If not, our culture will drown in the flood.

2. I don't believe anybody is arguing against legal immigration.
5. It's not the primary duty, but it should be (maybe I'm reading that wrong).
8. Unfortunately I don't think the flat tax will every fly.
9. I don't believe anybody denies this, but being in a country illegally should negate any future benefits.

barlio wrote:

2. I don't believe anybody is arguing against legal immigration.
5. It's not the primary duty, but it should be (maybe I'm reading that wrong).
8. Unfortunately I don't think the flat tax will every fly.
9. I don't believe anybody denies this, but being in a country illegally should negate any future benefits.

There would seem to be a problem regarding the large number of illegal immigrants. Even if it were possible to round them all up, deporting them would be a major logistical effort. Also, aren't children born in the USA automatically citizens? What happens to the children of illegal immigrants?