The club that I belong to is looking to run a gaming Open Day to promote gaming. The idea is to get together the known clubs in our area and have them all host a different system. This then lets other gamers know what clubs are around and what systems are supported.

With this on my mind I stumbled in to the above idea for this post. On DakkaDakka there can be quite heated posts about GW and their systems. People moan about the rules and the cost of the models, so I was wondering if people actually look at other systems? If not why not, what is stopping you playing another system?

Having played 40k for a large chunk of my gaming life, and having stopped about 3 years ago, I find that that there are other systems out there that give me as much satisfaction as any GW ruleset.

I currently play:

Rules of Engagement
Urban War
Metropolis
Pirates
Confrontation 3
AT43

I will also be play, once I've finished the forces:

PBI
AK47
Flames of War
Infinity
Hell Dorado

I enjoy all of the above and have no problem with never playing 40k again, although I may do some 40k in 40 minute forces in the future.

Its the fear.

Fear of spending money into a game to have it disappear from the market , or lack of people to play with.

*edit , it also works both way.

The fear of already spent lots of money ( warhammer players ) and to have your gaming group move onto something else ,
making your current army obsolete , and have to go with the flow. This usually result in the warhammer players bashing the new
products with all their might.

I think that one of the major problems people run into is simply the mentality that a "system" means buying a bunch of miniatures, too. Naturally, this is something that the larger game companies themselves like to promote because it can lead to people getting "locked in". There's a reason that GW calls it "The Games Workshop Hobby" and not "The Wargaming Hobby": they don't want you to even know other companies exist.

There have been systems published that aren't brand-centric, but there is very little money in it when you can't sell the lead. Profit margins on books are extremely low, so if it can't support a miniatures line most companies (especially ones with the wherewithal to really get rolling) aren't going to take a flier on something like that.

With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

Magc8Ball wrote:I think that one of the major problems people run into is simply the mentality that a "system" means buying a bunch of miniatures, too. Naturally, this is something that the larger game companies themselves like to promote because it can lead to people getting "locked in". There's a reason that GW calls it "The Games Workshop Hobby" and not "The Wargaming Hobby": they don't want you to even know other companies exist.

There have been systems published that aren't brand-centric, but there is very little money in it when you can't sell the lead. Profit margins on books are extremely low, so if it can't support a miniatures line most companies (especially ones with the wherewithal to really get rolling) aren't going to take a flier on something like that.

I agree with this.

GW has managed to create a state of mind in young wargamers that you have to buy and play a 'system' and their's is the only system.

In reality, you can use any miniatures with any suitable set of rules. There are several 28mm SF skirmish games. You just need to decide what stats are to be used for each type of model.

Historicals are even more open.

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

Pffffft!! Models are nice I'll give you that.

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

Just out of interest have you ever tried another system? It's not a question to try and make you change, more to add to my original post. If you've not tried another system, I'd love to know if it is something as simple as being trapped by GW's marketing or a genuine freedom of will. Let me just say that I feel 40K works and as a rule system I don't have a problem with it

Getting others to play.

Though now we have a brand spanky new club in my town, thanks to Fitzeh, this might be easier than before.

All I'd need to do is to get 3 or so other players to try it as well, and I have a decent chance at embarking on a new system.

I maintain that network effect is a big cause: 40k is the 'default' game in part because a player can reliably walk into a store and find an opponent.

A lot of companies can meet or exceed GW on one or more of writing quality, miniatures quality, and value, but few can reliably say there'll be an opponent, even if it's "that guy" willing to play if you go to a store on a random Saturday.

GW is the finest purveyor, in every sense of the word, of wargaming products since Falcon brought Anaris to Eldanesh.

i just use the same models, I don't play in a GW store so I don't have any issues... Although I dont know of any AT-43 players. I haven't tried many others.

solid models, decent rules, huge player base, and able to pick up a game most anywhere in the world. I don't have a huge amount of time to game so don't want to waste it and I like GW stuff. nothing I have seen comes close to GW overall.

avantgarde wrote:GW is the finest purveyor, in every sense of the word, of wargaming products since Falcon brought Anaris to Eldanesh.

Are you....serious? No. This is a joke, right? This has to be a joke.

Oh, I get it now! HAHAHAHAHA! Good one!

I used to try new systems all the time. I still have boxes of old books and miniatures in my closet to prove it. What I like about Warhammer and 40k is that I can stop playing for a while and I know that the game won't be dead when I decide to start playing again. Also, the miniatures will still be worth something if I decide that I need to sell them.

artyboy wrote:I used to try new systems all the time. I still have boxes of old books and miniatures in my closet to prove it. What I like about Warhammer and 40k is that I can stop playing for a while and I know that the game won't be dead when I decide to start playing again. Also, the miniatures will still be worth something if I decide that I need to sell them.

Hey, you should be able to sell those old, dead games for their shipping cost!

But yeah, so far, there are a sum total of 3 companies games that seem to be doing OK:

GW (40k & WotR)
PP (WM/H)
BF (FoW)

I wouldn't even bother spending on other games unless I had the specific intent and expectation of providing all rules and minis for them, like a board game.

Just a few of my personal reasons for not trying many new games:

1. The depth and breadth of GW's universe makes for a wealth of possibilities. Sure, some of it's derivative, but having 30-plus years to draw inspiration from is kinda nice when building an army.
2. Accessibility of players and opponents.
3. Overall, their model range is both accessible and of high-quality. Some companies are making up ground here, but they're not there yet.
4. I'm getting too old and crotchety to keep learning new things.
5. I'm broke! The models I already own can be used for years to come, even as editions and codices change. Some things fall by the wayside, and old stuff becomes new again, but an Ork Boy will still always be an Ork Boy.

NOthing. I play Hordes, Dark Age, and a few other games..

Time. I just need to wait until the UNA army box comes out for AT-43, and I'll be able to fill my sci-fi tabletop urges. 'Cause 40k really doesn't do it, seeing as it....sucks.

Nothing stops me. Of course, I hardly ever play this system, so that might be a reason

LunaHound wrote:Its the fear.

Fear of spending money into a game to have it disappear from the market , or lack of people to play with.

*edit , it also works both way.

The fear of already spent lots of money ( warhammer players ) and to have your gaming group move onto something else ,
making your current army obsolete , and have to go with the flow. This usually result in the warhammer players bashing the new
products with all their might.

QFT... i think... what does QFT mean anyway? The Dakka definition says Quoted for truth...

well whatever it means... i concur with the LunaHound

Warmachine/Hordes: Cards, metal miniatures
Confrontation: Cards, crappy quality plastic miniatures
AT-43: More fething cards, nobody at the only gaming store within range plays it.
Why, oh why does every miniature game nowadays have to come with cards?

QFT means you just quoted me because you agreed with what i said xD

warpcrafter wrote:Warmachine/Hordes: Cards, metal miniatures
Confrontation: Cards, crappy quality plastic miniatures
AT-43: More fething cards, nobody at the only gaming store within range plays it.
Why, oh why does every miniature game nowadays have to come with cards?

Well no one said you have to use the cards lol. Its made for saving you time to flip page by page for the unit's stats.
You can just lay it at the side and view it anytime you want instantly.

Not mention they can constantly feel free to add and expand NEW units without having to wait for next edition codex.

Its very smart idea actually.

I've been trying to get my gaming group into battletech for years (I have a thing for mechs) I've forked out for about 4 decent size Stars/Lances + rules + mapsets and weve played it only a few times.

The issue for most people though is buying new miniatures and having people to play with, GW is so accessible many people see no need to look at other companies

I generally had not tried other systems as I had simply never seen models that I liked or models in person. It was only when I saw a battlefront flames of war display that I bought some models and a book on a whim and got into it from there. I'm not really into the fantasy genre beyond blood bowl, and sci fi takes a big investment of time to get up to scratch with the background. This basically leaves historicals as an easy alternative, and for me WW2 and Napoleonics are the big two interesting time periods (though Roman and other BCE stuff are also quite cool).

I play many different games. Some of them have been "dead" (i.e. have had no official support for years). Just last week I played Flintloque for the first time - a game that has been around for at least 15 or so years.

All that is needed to try out a new game is a copy of the rules (there are loads for free off t'interwebs if you're broke, and anyone but GW charges smaller amounts for rule books - £15 - £20 is more typical than the £30 - £40 GW tend to produce theirs for, and many go for pennies on eBay), 2 small armies (not necessarily painted) and 1 mate ready to give it a go with you. Something like Uncharted Seas you can get all that for oooh, say £50 or so plus postage - about the same as AoBR! Something like DBA could set you back only £30 - £40 for 2 useable armies and the rules. Hardly a major financial risk - about the cost of a Land Raider or two boxes of Goldswords!

As long as you have somewhere to play and one sympathetic mate, you're sorted. There really is no rational excuse for not branching out, unless you are truly content with where you are within the GW fold.

I don't understand this "fear" of a system stopping being supported. It just looks pretty mad to me. Who the frag needs "support" if they are a compus mentis adult with a ha'ppeneth of imagination? Sure it's nice, but its not necessary! And these day's with t'internet there is so much quality fan made stuff its an embarassment of riches (just found a great site dealing with Man O' War this afternoon!)

Sure, it can be handy to walk into a store ina strange town, plonk down your 1500 point army and have at it with a complete stranger. I can see the appeal in that. But why does that real benefit of GW mean you will be afraid to try any other game as well? It's not as if when you take up another game the GW police wll suddenly pounce on you for the indiscretion is it?!

I haven't tried anything else as I enjoy 40k too much and don't have the time to play anything else even if I did have the inclination.

Brother Bartius wrote:I haven't tried anything else as I enjoy 40k too much and don't have the time to play anything else even if I did have the inclination.

My thoughts exactly. I like 40k, and only have so much time between work and family to even do that.

LunaHound wrote:QFT means you just quoted me because you agreed with what i said xD

warpcrafter wrote:Warmachine/Hordes: Cards, metal miniatures
Confrontation: Cards, crappy quality plastic miniatures
AT-43: More fething cards, nobody at the only gaming store within range plays it.
Why, oh why does every miniature game nowadays have to come with cards?

Well no one said you have to use the cards lol. Its made for saving you time to flip page by page for the unit's stats.
You can just lay it at the side and view it anytime you want instantly.

Not mention they can constantly feel free to add and expand NEW units without having to wait for next edition codex.

Its very smart idea actually.

But you're supposed to mark on the cards (For Warmachine/Hordes) for your record-keeping of damage on Warcasters and Warjacks. I mention this to people and their answer (With a smirk!!!) is "Just put it in a card-sleeve and use a grease-pencil!" That's not the point. I have no problem with using an army list book. Perhaps when they put out actual army list books for Warmachine there will be more impetus to try an alternate method. (Paper and pencil?)

I like to play non-GW rulesets like Star Grunt II and FUDGE using GW miniatures. You get the benefits of a reasonably solid and well-maintained rule system, great grimdark fluff, and miniatures that are instantly recognizable.

It's fun and easy to translate army stats and develop new rules to take advantage of an alternate system and display the fluff of an army.

When playing a game of Star Grunt against my son (Eldar vs. Necrons and Marines vs. Necrons) at the FLGS, the locals had to do a double take since we didn't have codeci (just notecards), weren't using templates or dice blocks, and were using terms like Support Fire and Suppression.

There was definite interest, albeit hesitant at first, but the chance to have a list match it's fluff closer than the rules written for that army was very appealing to the players I talked with.

...There are army books for Warmachine. And when you have an army where every model has more special rules then half a 40k codex, theres a good point to having it writen down somewhere easy to referance. I'd like to see what you'd do if half the models in your 40k army had 25 wounds, and loss of particular ones caused different effects. (FYI, I have played Hords with paper & Pencil. the cards are easier, eather grese pen or photocopied)

warpcrafter wrote:

LunaHound wrote:QFT means you just quoted me because you agreed with what i said xD

warpcrafter wrote:Warmachine/Hordes: Cards, metal miniatures
Confrontation: Cards, crappy quality plastic miniatures
AT-43: More fething cards, nobody at the only gaming store within range plays it.
Why, oh why does every miniature game nowadays have to come with cards?

Well no one said you have to use the cards lol. Its made for saving you time to flip page by page for the unit's stats.
You can just lay it at the side and view it anytime you want instantly.

Not mention they can constantly feel free to add and expand NEW units without having to wait for next edition codex.

Its very smart idea actually.

But you're supposed to mark on the cards (For Warmachine/Hordes) for your record-keeping of damage on Warcasters and Warjacks. I mention this to people and their answer (With a smirk!!!) is "Just put it in a card-sleeve and use a grease-pencil!" That's not the point. I have no problem with using an army list book. Perhaps when they put out actual army list books for Warmachine there will be more impetus to try an alternate method. (Paper and pencil?)

Oh come off it. It's a different game so it needs a different tracking system. That's
all there is to it. I'm not saying that things are better one way or the other, it's just
better for this game.

Whats stops me from trying another system is diluting my efforts isn't worth it.

How many gamers do you know with 8 projects and none finished...

? (All of them right?)

Also no one comes close to GWs massive minis inventory. There is hands down no contest for variety.

They are the kings, it's the best thing on the market (speaking as a modeler/player).

With regard to just biting the bullett and going for it.

I had an extremely bad experience when I tried out Warmachine. Picked up Prime, some Khador 'Jacks, and headed out to a FLGS to grab a couple of training games.

This worked to a point. That point being the opponents poor grasp of the English language. When I asked 'hey, can you guys run me through my first few games until I get a handle on it' to which they replied 'yeah, sure'. Seemingly what they were trying to say was 'hahaha! Fresh meat! This ought to enlarge my penis by another inch at least. I would be honoured to give you a sound thrashing, and not bother to shake your hand after the game or indeed offer any advice which could prevent the outcome of the game being anything short of a crushing defeat for you'.

Yeah. Found that to be a real problem.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:With regard to just biting the bullett and going for it.

I had an extremely bad experience when I tried out Warmachine. Picked up Prime, some Khador 'Jacks, and headed out to a FLGS to grab a couple of training games.

This worked to a point. That point being the opponents poor grasp of the English language. When I asked 'hey, can you guys run me through my first few games until I get a handle on it' to which they replied 'yeah, sure'. Seemingly what they were trying to say was 'hahaha! Fresh meat! This ought to enlarge my penis by another inch at least. I would be honoured to give you a sound thrashing, and not bother to shake your hand after the game or indeed offer any advice which could prevent the outcome of the game being anything short of a crushing defeat for you'.

Yeah. Found that to be a real problem.

I've never seen that happen with GW products, especially in a FLGS.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

artyboy wrote:I used to try new systems all the time. I still have boxes of old books and miniatures in my closet to prove it. What I like about Warhammer and 40k is that I can stop playing for a while and I know that the game won't be dead when I decide to start playing again. Also, the miniatures will still be worth something if I decide that I need to sell them.

Hey, you should be able to sell those old, dead games for their shipping cost!

But yeah, so far, there are a sum total of 3 companies games that seem to be doing OK:

GW (40k & WotR)
PP (WM/H)
BF (FoW)

I wouldn't even bother spending on other games unless I had the specific intent and expectation of providing all rules and minis for them, like a board game.

Battletech. How many other games do you know where the production company shut its doors (not because of money concerns, but because the staff got bored with success) and it got picked back up by another company (FanPro/Catalyst) and became even more successful? How many other companies aside from GW have produced complete "spin-off" games (AreoTech, MechWarrior: Dark Age)? How many other companies have had a Saturday morning cartoon made from their game (answer: TSR and BT - that's it)? How many other gaming companies have had video games made from their game (answer: TSR and GW - that's it)? BattleTech's been the "go-to" Giant Smashy Robot game since 1985, and has more words in print than any game company aside from TSR and GW itself. Yes, even more than GURPS (the 100-novel fiction line helps too).

Swordguy wrote:Battletech. How many other games do you know where the production company shut its doors (not because of money concerns, but because the staff got bored with success) and it got picked back up by another company (FanPro/Catalyst) and became even more successful?

How many other companies have had a Saturday morning cartoon made from their game (answer: TSR and BT - that's it)?

How many other gaming companies have had video games made from their game (answer: TSR and GW - that's it)?

TSR / WotC / Hasbro DnD?

Pokemon, Yugioh, & Chaotic come to mind...

Pokemon & Yugioh also come to mind here, too. And don't forget MTGO... Or Macross, where most of the "original" Battletech designs came from..

Swordguy wrote:
Battletech. How many other games do you know where the production company shut its doors (not because of money concerns, but because the staff got bored with success) and it got picked back up by another company (FanPro/Catalyst) and became even more successful? How many other companies aside from GW have produced complete "spin-off" games (AreoTech, MechWarrior: Dark Age)? How many other companies have had a Saturday morning cartoon made from their game (answer: TSR and BT - that's it)? How many other gaming companies have had video games made from their game (answer: TSR and GW - that's it)? BattleTech's been the "go-to" Giant Smashy Robot game since 1985, and has more words in print than any game company aside from TSR and GW itself. Yes, even more than GURPS (the 100-novel fiction line helps too).

Heavy Gear had a animated series. It wasn't particularly good, and has been noted as in-canon kiddy fodder/propaganda at best, with no real ties to the 'real' storyline of the setting.

But it was a series.

As well, two computer games.

The Deadlands RPG has a computer game 'on the way' and there's been several White Wolf-based computer games. (Again, the quality on these may vary).

I'm iffy about the 'more words in print' as you're counting RPGs. White Wolf, again, might threaten things if they count the 'World of Darkness' as a collective entity, as it had dozens of sourcebooks, several with multiple revisions, a bunch of novels, and some extra bits. I'd say it was less novels than 100, but it wasn't a minor work.

Osbad wrote:I play many different games. Some of them have been "dead" (i.e. have had no official support for years). Just last week I played Flintloque for the first time - a game that has been around for at least 15 or so years.

All that is needed to try out a new game is a copy of the rules (there are loads for free off t'interwebs if you're broke, and anyone but GW charges smaller amounts for rule books - £15 - £20 is more typical than the £30 - £40 GW tend to produce theirs for, and many go for pennies on eBay), 2 small armies (not necessarily painted) and 1 mate ready to give it a go with you. Something like Uncharted Seas you can get all that for oooh, say £50 or so plus postage - about the same as AoBR! Something like DBA could set you back only £30 - £40 for 2 useable armies and the rules. Hardly a major financial risk - about the cost of a Land Raider or two boxes of Goldswords!

As long as you have somewhere to play and one sympathetic mate, you're sorted. There really is no rational excuse for not branching out, unless you are truly content with where you are within the GW fold.

I don't understand this "fear" of a system stopping being supported. It just looks pretty mad to me. Who the frag needs "support" if they are a compus mentis adult with a ha'ppeneth of imagination? Sure it's nice, but its not necessary! And these day's with t'internet there is so much quality fan made stuff its an embarassment of riches (just found a great site dealing with Man O' War this afternoon!)

Sure, it can be handy to walk into a store ina strange town, plonk down your 1500 point army and have at it with a complete stranger. I can see the appeal in that. But why does that real benefit of GW mean you will be afraid to try any other game as well? It's not as if when you take up another game the GW police wll suddenly pounce on you for the indiscretion is it?!

The 'system support' concept is that you can walk into a GW shop anywhere and buy absolutely everything you need to choose an army, build it, paint it, and paly with it.

It's a bit like going to the supermarket and buying one of those complete Indian meals for two in a box.

I think that's a pretty good concept, and as long as GW make users assemble and paint the models, it can act as a gateway to other wargames.

Ancients is another world. As long as you base your figures on WRG standard bases, they will be compatible with almost any Ancients rules on the market (except WHAB.) The fluff is all there -- it's called 'history' and you can get it practically for free. The only problem you'll face is learning a different set of rules if something goes out of dat.

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

This is sarcasm, amirite?

Nothing stops me playing another system.
I also play Warmachine and urban war. Smaller 'army size'. Different play style.

Nothing. I play Hordes, Warmachine, Flames of War and Uncharted Seas and Starship Troopers (with 40k figs).

What stops me playing GW systems? May be a better question for me.

I used to play Confrontation, before the dark times...

for me, the answer is simple: GW has stood the test of time.

I really liked VOR, chronopia, and warzone. I had several armies for each system, and they each had a few unique and good ideas.

even within GW I really liked epic, space hulk, hero quest, talisman, mordheim, battle fleet gothic, necromunda, bloodbowl, inquisitor, and even trolls in the pantry. once again, I had several forces for each of these. (the non-board games, of course.)

none of these games are played on a consistent basis anymore. the first three games went out of business. all of the GW specialist games are available, but interest and start-up cost (not to mention huge miniature costs) keep all but the most grizzled vets away from the specialist ranges.

I tried confrontation and had a few armies for that. it lost its popularity, and for a while seemed to change the core rules every six months. there was also way too much errata for me to keep track of, every time I fought an opponent, his army worked differently.

I tried warmachine and hordes. I really liked warmachine at first, but the competition level of the game caused my interest to wane. I played a bit of hordes, but just as I was getting into it (and actually having fun with warmachine/horde crossovers) its popularity at my local shop declined. I've not seen either game played at my new gamestore, although the full line of PP is carried there.

with 40k and fantasy, when I move to a new place, I know I can get games. Even with some glaring issues, both 40k and fantasy can be easily adapted to most styles of play, and I have never lived in a town large or small that didn't have a GW community of some sort. The same cannot be said for any other tabletop miniature game.

I Don't decry the money I spent on games that are either dead or not popular, I really enjoyed them when they were in their prime. I just simply cant bring myself to invest in any new companies, till they prove themselves for a decade or so.

One last note, if it's a different rule set that I can use my existing figures for, I'm all for that. I did play a bunch of games using VOR rules and converting over 40k armies (it was an easy way to get people to play against my growlers,) and I played around with demonblades' shockforce rules for a bit. I'm also a big fan of swiping any rules ideas and shoehorning them into 40k and fantasy as needed by the scenario I'm playing. (just used the target games alternate unit activation for a game of 40k, for example.)

I just got tired of buying and painting a ton of models that are passe a year later.

For me, it is interest.

What games do I play?

Warhammer 40,000
Necromunda
Warhammer Quest
Blood Bowl
BattleTech

Now all but one of those is a GW game. I play 40K because I'm interested in the storyline and the backgrounds of the armies, the characters that are there (and that you can invent) and the whole mythos of the universe. Necromunda falls into this category as well. Now I'm not all that interested in Warhammer, but find Warhammer Quest to be a great game as long as you don't take it seriously and can have a good laugh with friends. Blood Bowl falls into this category as well.

The only remaining one then is BattleTech, a game that is superior to everything GW has ever done in virtually every way besides model quality (and that's not Catalyst's fault, and not even really Iron Wind Metal's fault - not everyone can be a megalithic quality model making company like Citadel). I play BTech because I love the universe and backstory, and because it fills that need for a highly detailed and well written game (something 40K cannot do).

I don't play any others because... well... nothing has interested me. I know Flames of War is a good game, but I have no interest in playing a WWII skirmish game. Star Ship Troopers looked like fun, but, again, I didn't like the focus. The only 'other' game that I've liked the look of is AT-43, and mostly because the Therians would make good Necrons.

I don't have any fear of not finding players or spending too much money - I've spent too much money as it is! - it's about what keeps me interested and what keeps me playing. Only 40K and BTech have done that.

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability... and... clarity of [GW's] rules...

Just comin' out of the woodwork this week, aren't you? First artyboy and now you.

Clarity? Superior playability? GW? Same sentence? Amazing.

I play 40k only because it has so many army choices and was to build armies. A very nice feature that keeps it going.

I tried Hordes/Warmachine but it attracts the gamers with size issues. The whole Page 5 attitude, while a joke, is taken to seriously. Great game but most of the gamers I played against were rude. Not shaking an opponents hand is lame and disrespectful.

While I'd love to get into FoW, WAB, or FoG, there isn't a large player base for it. A recession is going on and I'm saving for Gen Con (where I'd find other wargames) so a new system isn't high on the list right now.

However, I am a sucker for cool card games.

How many other Wargames have stores scattered about so that you can have a game almost anywhere?

It isn't that I go to the FLGS every week, but it is a 'comfort zone' type of thing.

As for Card Games...

I have about 4,000 Jihad cards. Was a great game , and my friends and I enjoyed it for a few months.

Now they help keep my workbench level.

But I still have my first Bloodletter of Khorne Beastie I painted in '87 on Display. It's not painted well, it's more the point of the thing.

GW is STABLE. Despite rule fluctuations, horrible expansions, entire DELETION of models/armies from the gaming 'universe' it is set in etc etc etc. The woes are there we know.

However, the previous statements basically sum up my opinion with 40K is safe. For now. lol

H.B.M.C. wrote:

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability... and... clarity of [GW's] rules...

Just comin' out of the woodwork this week, aren't you? First artyboy and now you.

Clarity? Superior playability? GW? Same sentence? Amazing.

I dare you to name a better game than 40k. The rules are the best written and streamlined I've ever played with, I don't need to look at other company's product to know GW is the best. I've never had a rules dispute or had any confusion over interpretation. The models have amazing detail and wide assortment of bits that no other company provides, and they're getting cheaper with models like Greatswords and Steam Tanks being converted to plastic.

Why should I start up wargaming when I'm already playing GW?

I play GW games because I have the assurance that they'll be other people who know how to play (and wish to, of course), in addition to liking the background and the wide range of plastic models.

avantgarde wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability... and... clarity of [GW's] rules...

Just comin' out of the woodwork this week, aren't you? First artyboy and now you.

Clarity? Superior playability? GW? Same sentence? Amazing.

I dare you to name a better game than 40k. The rules are the best written and streamlined I've ever played with, I don't need to look at other company's product to know GW is the best. I've never had a rules dispute or had any confusion over interpretation. The models have amazing detail and wide assortment of bits that no other company provides, and they're getting cheaper with models like Greatswords and Steam Tanks being converted to plastic.

Why should I start up wargaming when I'm already playing GW?

Someone really needs to script sarcasm font bookends into the BB code.

The thing that is stopping me from trying another system is the myriad of new things I still have yet to do in my current system. I am constantly dreaming of starting up new armies, fleshing out current armies, catching up on painting, completely re-painting, etc...

with 10's of thousands of dollars invested in 6 systems over 16 years of tabletop wargaming, not even including RPG's going back to the mid 80's, I am as invested in the gaming part of my life as I want/need/can be.

Wolfstan wrote:I currently play:

Rules of Engagement
Urban War
Metropolis
Pirates
Confrontation 3
AT43

I will also be play, once I've finished the forces:

PBI
AK47
Flames of War
Infinity
Hell Dorado

Linky, linky, or you're stinky.
Seriously. How about some links for these lesser known systems?

Magc8Ball wrote:I think that one of the major problems people run into is simply the mentality that a "system" means buying a bunch of miniatures, too. Naturally, this is something that the larger game companies themselves like to promote because it can lead to people getting "locked in". There's a reason that GW calls it "The Games Workshop Hobby" and not "The Wargaming Hobby": they don't want you to even know other companies exist.

Truth! This is GOSPEL.

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

Well, seems to me that the last few words of your sentence pretty much nullifies the beginning (and crux, really) of your statement. If you never look at other systems, how could you possibly know GW's rules to have "superior playability". Oxymoron.




Other systems that I have played and would LOVE to play more are:

Battleground WWII - 20mm - (Easy Eights Productions - now defunct)
Fairy Meat - 1:1 - (Kenzer & Co.)
Gwar! Rumble in Antarctica - 28mm (DemonBlade Games - now defunct)
[urlhttp://www.rafm.com/charlie/charlie.html]Charlie Company - 20mm Vietnam - (RAFM)[/url]
Squadrons/Blue Skies - 1:300 WWII Aerial combat (SIMTAC Miniatures LLC - now defunct)


My problem is, 40k is so huge at my FLGS, nobody wants to play anything else. Well, nothing out of the ordinary, anyway. People play Warmachine and WHFB...






***EDIT***

I had a long reply to Avantgarde typed out, reeking in scything sarcasm, then I read this:

avantgarde wrote:...and they're getting cheaper with models like Greatswords and Steam Tanks being converted to plastic.

Now I realize he's being facetious. Silly me for not realizing sooner.




Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

Well, seems to me that the last few words of your sentence pretty much nullifies the beginning (and crux, really) of your statement. If you never look at other systems, how could you possibly know GW's rules to have "superior playability". Oxymoron.
Ghidorah

Less oxymoron (which this really doesn't qual as I believe. Isn't oxymoron limited to a pair of words or a phrase, not sentences?) and more trolling, I think.

The hardest thing for me in the switch from GW to PP games were (in order):

1. Everyone I knew was playing GW and weren't interested in switching.
2. I had already invested in a large amount of GW minis and time painting them.
3. I didn't want to paint or assemble a lot of models because I am an incredibly slow painter.

Then I had my armies stolen. So number 2 was basically wiped out. Additionally, PP just came out, and GW had one of their "price adjustments." So now here was a game I could get into for only $35 at the time (battleboxes). Plus, a bunch of people at the local game store tried it out too. So now 1 was gone too.

Once I started playing, I realized WM was a much better built game than GW. Plus, I wouldn't need to buy (and paint) 150-200 more models, only about 20. So 3 didn't seem like such a big deal anymore.

I was never able to convince my old GW buddies to switch over to PP games though, but since WM/H took off at the FLGS where I lived, it didn't matter, and I made new gaming buddies to play WM/H with.

Since that time, I've never gone back to GW.

P.S. Funny enough, after all these years, a couple of my old GW buddies are thinking about maybe trying some PP games.

By "Pirates", I'm assumeing he's referring to the now-defunct Wizkids Pirates CSG. I have something of a soft spot for that game, too.

It's two fold.
1st gw 40k has dedicated stores, I've been involved in it since 1989, there are novels, pc games, comics, etc....conversions are easy and so on.......also it is one hobby, and that is where my "fun" money goes.....

2nd - other game systems have come and gone, it would be yet another (2nd) hobby to pour money & time into.......

I just focus on the one....

Some links as requested

Rules of Engagement: http://www.greatescapegames.co.uk/
Urban War / Metropolis: http://urbanmammoth.co.uk/um/09/htm/uw_home.htm
AT43: http://www.at-43.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=57&Itemid=253 They have some battleforce box sets coming out that look good value.

I will also be playing, once I've finished the forces:

PBI & AK47: http://www.peterpig.co.uk/
Flames of War: http://www.flamesofwar.com/
Infinity: http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity_ENG/ Played my first game of Infinity last night, really enjoyed it. Used 10 models against 20 (D-Day themed demo game test), you get caught out in the open, or once the range mods kick in, it hurts
Hell Dorado: http://helldorado.fr/

Pirate's game is the Warhammer Ancients one, which is a good little game. On the plus side it is from the GW stable so GW fans can play it without feeling too guilty (you would need to buy non-GW models)... or on the other hand adpat some Warhammer models and use them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking back through the replies, I find myself wondering if US gamers are less likely to stray from GW than us Brits. Am I correct in this assumption?

At my club all the games listed, plus many more are played (for a full list visit: http://www.wessexwyverns.org.uk/about.html). I also know that most of the other clubs in Dorset play other systems on a regular basis. Does this indicate that the size of the UK allows for more gaming diversity or that we are fundamentally different when it comes to our gaming tastes?

Here's a general resource page for DBA Ancients

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/index.html

Have to say nothing's ever stopped me from trying other systems ,

Warmachine/hordes; got a few starter bits and stated looking for gamers..........found 2 after nearly a month of looking. Eventually had a game but with so few players ended up selling them off.
Flames of war; This one had me quite excited till I found the only players to be 40+ high and mighty types though quite a few played nearby, the cold shoulder/unwelcome attitude put me off.
battletech; still have some laying around but again few players and only having a modest intrest in it.

At the end of the day for all its faults GW have plenty of stores, lots of customers/gamers so unless they go belly up and I dont go onto pure videogaming/CCGs i'm quite ontent staying within GW grasp.

Kilkrazy wrote:The 'system support' concept is that you can walk into a GW shop anywhere and buy absolutely everything you need to choose an army, build it, paint it, and paly with it.
It's a bit like going to the supermarket and buying one of those complete Indian meals for two in a box.
I think that's a pretty good concept, and as long as GW make users assemble and paint the models, it can act as a gateway to other wargames.

I'll agree this seems to be part of the attraction, an it has weight. But is it really *that* much effort to fire up the internet and buy all the models and paints you need, assemble and paint them on your kitchen table and then play with them with a mate or at a local club(UK)/FLGS(US)? Really? I guess its the "MacDonalds" culture we live in - a sort of "convenience food" alternative to real gaming! LOL!

Killkrazy wrote:Ancients is another world. As long as you base your figures on WRG standard bases, they will be compatible with almost any Ancients rules on the market (except WHAB.) The fluff is all there -- it's called 'history' and you can get it practically for free. The only problem you'll face is learning a different set of rules if something goes out of dat.

And even then if you and your mate decide you are happy enough with the old rules, even that's not a biggy. For instance my mate & I can't be bothered to learn WMmkII. We're OK with MkI and don't play competitively enough to bother trying to "keep up with the Joneses". I realise MkI may be "broken", but it isn't broken the way we play it at home as friends, so we aren't planning to spend money that otherwise would go on new models, on a new set of rules "just to stay current". People still play RT and 2nd Edition 40k with no support from GW so, what's the difference?

If you have a good group of friends to play with you don't need any more "support" from anyone. Sure active "support" from a current ruleset and new model releases can create a buzz of excitement that is infectious. And people go for that. Me too from time to time. But if a game is good and you have a bunch of friends who enjoy it there's no reason to abandon it whatever happens to the manufacturer.

I really do think the "convenience factor" is what keeps people with GW. Just as people will pay £5 for a mediocre hamburger and chips from MacDonalds, rather than go home and cook a nicer, and much healthier one at home for half the price, so people will stick with the GW hobby, despite "better" rules and "better"/cheaper models being available elsewhere. And of course those that really prefer the "GW hobby" to the wider one - that is unarguable. If one really does think, after looking about that GW has the best fluff, rules and models, then there can be no argument. Unless one hasn't looked of course ....

Time.

I'd love to play FOW but am strapped for time so am flat out with WHFB and 40k, let alone other games.

Wolfstan wrote:Looking back through the replies, I find myself wondering if US gamers are less likely to stray from GW than us Brits. Am I correct in this assumption?
At my club all the games listed, plus many more are played (for a full list visit: http://www.wessexwyverns.org.uk/about.html). I also know that most of the other clubs in Dorset play other systems on a regular basis. Does this indicate that the size of the UK allows for more gaming diversity or that we are fundamentally different when it comes to our gaming tastes?

I wonder this too. Although the guys on the D6G seem to have no trouble playing other games (they've done Uncharted Seas, ACW and Epic, to name 3 off the top of my head).

If it *is* the case that the US gaming scene is more focussed on GW and PP, then I would see this as possibly a function of the commercial nature of the preferred gaming locations in the US - i.e. local stores. In the UK there seem to be a lot more independent, non-commercial gaming clubs, which obviously have no particular vested interest in steering games towards one system or another. If your only gaming venue is a store though (GW, or independent) then that store owner has a vested interest in only supporting a smaller product range - so it is hard for small/new/old games systems to break in, as no one really feels comfortable trying a system at the store when that store owner is really only supplying gaming tables for products he sells.

Of course I've never played a game at a US FLGS, so I am only going on impressions, and there may well be some friendly stores who would be quite happy for someone to turn up with a new/old/small game and let them play, but I suspect there are many that would not be so happy, particularly if it gained traction and pulled people away from games he could stock and service more easily.

Almost all the people at my LGS play 40k, WHFB or Magic the Gathering, as a result there is not much interest in other gaming systems, but now with the prices going up on GW products, there starting to look at other systems. FoW is out of the running due to the store has had 3 attempts to get it up and there still stuck with a crap load of the stuff that doesn't sell. I am going to see if i can get some interest in WM/Hordes.

The convenience aspect is important to 13-year-olds, as they don't have the research skills and patience of an adult.

Wolfstan wrote:Pirate's game is the Warhammer Ancients one, which is a good little game.

Looking back through the replies, I find myself wondering if US gamers are less likely to stray from GW than us Brits.

Man O War? Ohh, that's old.

I played a lot of stuff before GW, and I'll continue to do so. But in-store, GW pretty much rules the roost among TTGs. CCGs have GW's number, tho.

Wolfstan wrote:...I was wondering if people actually look at other systems? If not why not, what is stopping you playing another system?

Love them or hate them, GW makes the best figures out there. 40k/Fantasy is a very conversion friendly system unlike click-based stuff or even stuff from other more standard miniatures games. GW has a significant amount of their line as multi-part plastic which allows for each person to build a very unique looking army, even if they are all space marines. This is a lot harder to achieven with games using mostly/only metal figures. The final reason is that I can usually get a game of 40k pretty quickly. Pick-up games in other systems are harder to get, or at least get someone other than the same one or two opponents.

I'm thinking of getting into AT-43 I just hope there's some people around here who play it!

Wolfstan wrote:Rules of Engagement: http://www.greatescapegames.co.uk/

Do you know what scale that system is for? From the pics on the site, it seems like 25mm...



Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:

Wolfstan wrote:Rules of Engagement: http://www.greatescapegames.co.uk/

Do you know what scale that system is for? From the pics on the site, it seems like 25mm...



Ghidorah

28mm. You can get figures from Warlord Games, who is part owned by former employee of GW Paul Sawyer. I also used Artizan models as Bolt Action Miniatures (now part of Warlord Games) didn't do US Paras at the time. I've got a Panzer Lehr & Royal Marine force from Bolt Action & an Easy Company themed US Para force from Artizan. It's a brilliant game.

Im afraid of trying another system (i badly want to try out FoW) but since the only local gaming shop i know of (games workshop) only sells warhammer. i would gladly check out other systems but i can't seem to find any, or anyone interested.

*off topic. if anyone is near the Miranda area (South Sydney, NSW) and knows a place where they play/sell systems other than warhammer please PM or reply

I would love to try some privateer press stuff but over here it is realy pricey so for now I will stick with GW's tiny plastic people.

PP all the way.

I'm switching from GW to PP.


Better models, dope game (this is IMO).

I second what Rogue Market said:

I'm working on making a switch from GW to PP. I've stopped buying GW products already, hopefully I can keep that up...

Only other thing as well is that I am waiting for the PP to bring out the new rulebook.

Gutteridge wrote:if anyone is near the Miranda area (South Sydney, NSW) and knows a place where they play/sell systems other than warhammer please PM or reply

Try asking around on http://www.wargamerau.com/

Gutteridge wrote:*off topic. if anyone is near the Miranda area (South Sydney, NSW) and knows a place where they play/sell systems other than warhammer please PM or reply

You could try Southern Battlegamers. They meet friday nights in the Sylvania Heights community centre (near the corner of Box rd Sylvania Rd Nth). It's a 5 minute or so drive from Miranda, or about a 20 minute walk (but even I wouldn't walk it on a friday night - you do kinda have to pass the local nightspot where various RL players and their wanna-be groupies hang out (Carmens).). There is a privately run bus service that runs past there, though (from Miranda station/out the front of westfields).

They are a nice bunch and even throw their own tournament once a year (october long weekend). They have a forum section on Wargamerau here http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showforum=226.

That's the only club I know in the area. They play 40k/WHFB and other games. I haven't seen them in a while (moved out of the area 3 years ago, so I don't get to catch up that often.).

I must say, my number one reason for sticking with Gw is the fluff.

I have looked at other games (Dark Age, AT-43, Warzone, Void etc...), and I'll even use their models in my WH40k games, but whenever I look at these other games I'm disappointed by the thin background.

I know that a 'new' game can't help this, but I'd still rather play the game with the better developed and more detailed backstory...

As if 40k has such a deep background. It's just that they have been around way longer and have been recycling a lot of stuff, oh yeah and ripping off whatever they can get their hands on. They also got a bigger writers department I guess.

That in itself isn't wrong though.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Wolfstan wrote:Pirate's game is the Warhammer Ancients one, which is a good little game.

Looking back through the replies, I find myself wondering if US gamers are less likely to stray from GW than us Brits.

Man O War? Ohh, that's old.

No, I believe he meant "Legends of the High Seas", which was released by Warhammer Historical a year or so back. It is a "pirates" adaptation of the LotR engine, in the same way that Legends of the Old West was a Wild West adaptation.

That'll be the fella.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.

Hi all.
I can understand the 2 recurrent reasons that some people give for staying with GWs 40k-/-WH.

Depth of background and minature range.

However there are several games you can use your existing minatures, and use your favorite background as a driving narrative behind the games you play.

For WH, Armies Of Arcana and No Quarter are just 2 that are rather popular.And for 40k ,Stargrunt II and No Limits work rather well.

Some game rules are free to down load.
So all it costs is a bit of time and creativity and you can get your own hobby!
(Rather than the 'GW hobby' determined by a corperate managment intent on getting as much of your money as they can. )

Happy Gaming ,
Lanrak.

Limited funds and player base mainly. I've dropped too much money over the past couple years on alternative systems that died out locally in 3ish months once the novelty wore off of them. There's lots of things I'm interested in but at this point unless it's something like AoA or an equivalent where I can use figs I already have or it's something really cheap like Uncharted Seas (which has all but died locally since they can't keep up with production, distribution, and promises), it probably won't happen until it gets some legs under it.

LunaHound wrote:Its the fear.

Fear of spending money into a game to have it disappear from the market , or lack of people to play with.

Yup. There you have it.

I used to play the Vs. System CCG. It had a good run, but lasted nowhere near as long as Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh. Now I have boxes of cards and nobody to play with...

*tear*

Fear is definitley the key, I have two AT-43 armies, sold my Battlefield Evolution pre paints as well as my Void, Warzone and FoW armies simply due to the lack of local opponents. ( of course now FoW has rebounded in a big way and I miss my panzergrenadiers)

I had a long ongoing conversation with Niel from Meeples and Miniatures and we basically agreed that the FLGS based play groups in the US heavily favor games that have good retail presense. IF you dont see it on the shelves in the store you play at you are not likley to play even if you could special order it from you retailer.

What GW and to a lesser degree PP and BF have that none of the other systems have is solid distribution and retail availability. This creates the solid player base and leads to a cycle that is very hard for a new game to break into.

In the UK with the gaming club based player culture and the numerous shows that are allways going on it is far more common to play multiple systems and try new games than it is here.

As always I envy my gaming brothers from across the pond.!!!

For me it needs to hold my interest and other gaming systems just aren't as interesting.

Okay, there's also money and evil glares from the better half.

I think its cause games workshop and 40k seem important. The other games dont.

Plus you know theres video games and novels and stuff to get you further immersed in the universe.

Also Most of us started with this stuff as teenagers. And like smoking it can be difficult to quit. (im not buying rigth now but Im here reading about it.)

I'd just also like to add - GW is the only one that really owns stores - so you'll see support.

When I started looking around for other stores that are indy LGS's.


I saw less 40k, more FOW, HORDES/ WM.

Money is the only thing holding me back, more work hours/better job, or a strengthening of the economy and I'm set.

Malika2 wrote:As if 40k has such a deep background. It's just that they have been around way longer and have been recycling a lot of stuff, oh yeah and ripping off whatever they can get their hands on. They also got a bigger writers department I guess.

That in itself isn't wrong though.

Yup. They've got a bigger writers department and they've been around a lot longer. That's why they have a deeper background that all those other games I mentioned.

I understand that it's not the FAULT of games like AT-43 and Void that they have less fluff. They've just been around a lot less time, and had a lot less books, games, computer games, magazines published.

However, I'm still not going to play the game if the fluff isn't very well developed, whatever the reason...

I did a transition to PP games a while ago, and I was lucky enough to bring a lot of the older guys from GW with me....eventually.

Now I've re-lapsed into GW, thanks to friends I have locally who play nothing but WHFB, and the nice tournament scene for WHFB in our area, but given the way the game is going now, I've basically gotten my armies "completed", with a few units left to do and I'm calling it quits on GW.

I'll have the models to play in any GW tournament I want - but screw buying new armies.

Oddly enough, with PP - I don't get nearly as competitive.

I have near zero pressure to paint for tournies, so I paint at my leisure, not with some artificial deadline to play in something.

PP games are inherently more "customizable" in terms of an army collection:

GW games and armies require far more models, and not only that, but they MUST be painted to be played at tournies. Given that the rules for different units vary wildly in terms of effectiveness, I don't want to waste money and a substantial amount of time to build/paint said unit.

For PP games, I can swap units around far more easily than I can in GW games, and as a result my army plays substantially differently with just a few tweaks.

The Warcaster/Warlock design aids this a bit, but because of the scale of the game a few unit or Beast/Jack swaps have a far more sweeping impact on my armies function.

Also while GW is technically more "customizable" in what you can give units, it's generally a farce. There are 1-3 builds for each given character type, with many just sucking no matter what you do.

Honestly, as someone who WAS apprehensive about playing other stuff - make the jump. The hardest thing is finding a pocket of a community to play your game in, but if you can find just a little spark to start in, you can build from there. It's totally worth it.

Well, going through the posts it would appear that over here in the UK we do get the chance to play more systems. It would appear that being a smaller country allows us to play niche systems, don't know how that pans out in the rest of Europe. The plan for our open day is to have each participating club run between 1 - 2 games. Even with say 6 clubs turning up, I can't see there being the need to have repeat systems on display. As I hope to get the local GW stores involved, this could mean that 40k, Warhammer & LoTR are taken care of by them.

Given what I know of the local clubs I can see the following games on display:

Urban War
Warmachine / Hordes
PBI
AK47
Rules of Engagement
Flames of War
AT43
Flintloque
Infinity
Hell Dorado
A Very British Civil War
Uncharted Seas
SoTR

To name a few )

Just out of interest... and if I ever came in to a large amount of money ) Are there any large conventions in the US that allow gamers to turn up and run demonstration games? Ideally on the East coast, as being 6' 5" tall, I don't want to be in the air that long! )

IIRC Templecon is held in Rhode Island in February. The d6G hosted a participation game of Uncharted Seas there this year. They talk about it in episode 25.

There's a long list of gaming conventions on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gaming_conventions

Time--between work, wife, children, etc. I can game once a week, sometimes only once every other week. I suppose when the small fries are older I'll play other systems with them.

To answer the question about what is stopping me from playing other systems. I will reply time, money, and how much other people want to play it. First off time is a major factor. There is RL out there and if you spend alot of it playing a game (painting, making list, reading rules over and over, etc.) then you miss out on so much more. After you spend your hard earned dough on a game that spends alot of time sitting in the closet instead of taking a road trip to somewhere fun, then you kind of wonder if it was a good "entertainment" investment. And of course, especially for people in small towns, if you dont have the players then why invest in a system, or another system, that nobody plays. I have come across all these problems. I dont play Warhammer 40k much anymore and as much that I have tried could not really get interested in Warhammer Fantasy (rules are good, but not to interested; plus the ending of the Storm of Chaos kind of put me off of the whole thing) because of all these factors, and would find it hard to get into another system because of this.

However since some I have seen put a plug in for some systems, I will shamelessly put in one for Axis and Allies Naval Minatures. The rules are relatively simple. You can play those what-if scenarios (like if the Bismark more supporting ships and aircraft) and you get a little bit of history with it. I usually look up the ships I get on Wikipedia and look up the history behind the ship. Plus after reading about the Battle of Samar and other instances where it was by the GRace of God that the Allies had got a lucky shot in (for example the damaged rudder of the Bismark) or just engineered a new device (breathing apparatus on the USS Enterprise) a person may think that maybe the Axis powers had a bit of a better chance of having a different outcome of events.

Just my 2 cents on the matter. Hope to be getting back into 40k soon though later and get a battle report in.

I think in the UK we do have much more opportunity to try different games.

Within 25 miles max of my house I could attend either a games club or store opening late 5 nights a week and only one of those is a GW store.

At 2 of the clubs I could guarantee to get a historical game of one sort or another and a fantasy or sci fi game at the other.

Then as I have room for a table at my home I can play what I like with whom ever I chose.

I play Epic and Bloodbowl from GW, my interest in the core games died a while ago. After that I play a variety of ancient games, WWII, modern.

For me to get into another system I need...

1) time
2) money
3) enough friends who will play too

#3 is the worst for me. In my club, it's fantasy & 40k exclusively. Most members have armies for Mortheim or Battlefleet Gothic too. I'm sure a few will be into Space Hulk too. But that's it.

I wasted my money on a Skorne army for Hordes because no one can play with me, and I can't get to the local store on warmachine night. I thought it was a fun game, but no one else wants to pick it up. Well there's 1 guy with a big Cygnar army but thats it. Other members in the club are having the same problem with Flames of War.

So for me, i'm better off sticking with GW stuff. It's what we all play. I still love the models and the game is always fun even when the rules start getting crazy.

Only thing that slows my entry into a new system is availability of product. I've yet to see an AT43 model in person. I like to have it tangible before I go whole hog and buy rules and 2 armies.

I've got an asset that a lot of people don't - a gamer spouse. So long as I buy two armies (ohnoes!) I can get away with a new game.

I've seen AT-43 brand new in their boxes, and, aside from the Therians, they're not interesting. The Therians are kinda small compared to Necrons, but at least they look cool.

I've been stuck on Warhammer and Warhammer 40k for a long time. Mostly because it's a reliable system that has a lot of people playing it. Plus the rules are fairly straightforward and easy to pick up, despite the little nuances and hiccups that pop up.

I've been interested in Warmachine, but once again, the absolutely insane cost to start has turned me off.

So the things people would need to step over to a new system are:
-need for opponents
-reasonably prized models of good quality
-good storyline
-regular updates on products/site/game/etc

Malika2 wrote:So the things people would need to step over to a new system are:
-need for opponents
-reasonably prized models of good quality
-good storyline
-regular updates on products/site/game/etc

Those are the "carrots". I think many would also need a hefty "stick" in the form of massive reduction in the availability of WFB/40k as well though.

While it is so relatively easy to engage in them, I think many just don't see the point/can't be bothered to switch. Even if the alternatives appear cheaper and "better".

I guess its a form of automatism, why go for something new if you already have something else, even if the new stuff is better and cheaper. People tend to be very "conservative" when it comes to actual change (yes we all yell we want change, but at the end of the day we want it to more or less to stay the same as we already know it).

I doubt the "stick" as you put it would be there since GW is practically everywhere. This would have been easier lets day 10 to 15 years ago when GW's only tended to have its stores in the UK, the rest of world primarily relying on independent stores.

Malika2 wrote:I doubt the "stick" as you put it would be there since GW is practically everywhere. This would have been easier lets day 10 to 15 years ago when GW's only tended to have its stores in the UK, the rest of world primarily relying on independent stores.

Well, the recent price rises were looking pretty "sticky" for a while...

GW's prices have proved enough of an incentive for many of us to put that bit of effort into doing something else...

And if GW get their sums wrong and have to close more stores any time soon...

What is stopping me from trying another system? The twenty year backlog of terrific GW product I own. But seriously, I'm much more concerned with the models and their appearance than the game system and I like GW models better than anyone else's.

When I started buying miniatures in 1989 I bought from what at the time was the "big three": Ral Partha, Grenadier and then GW. Most of the purchases I made of Grenadier and Ral Partha models got pushed aside and never painted after I discovered Citadel miniatures. Apparently, a lot of people felt the same way as Ral Partha and Grenadier disappeared from the scene. They made a lot of nice looking stuff, but overall GW's unique style won me and a lot of others over. Now, if Jes Goodwin ever left for another miniatures company, that might make a difference to me, otherwise, I'll stick to the models I like best and keep chipping away at the never ending backlog.

Funny to see this topic thread now. I have a box of wonderful Ral Partha DragonLance Draconian miniatures I never painted due to my falling into Warhammer. I'll be putting them up on eBay this coming Sunday night. It's a shame because they are some of the nicest looking miniatures I ever bought, but with my passion for other models taking precedence, they never got the attention they deserved.

George Spiggott wrote:

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

Pffffft!! Models are nice I'll give you that.

I was thinking "One out of three aint bad" as well...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I've been interested in Warmachine, but once again, the absolutely insane cost to start has turned me off.

Care to elaborate?

the starters are all around what $50 and come with the stat cards for models and quickstart rules. Battleboxes represent the "mangled metal" format of the game which is 350pts. and is a fun format. I own thousands of points of my chosen WM army and yet still play mangled metal games regularly. One does not have to buy 500-750+ points of models to play.


The standard game size of 500-750pts. can be built for around $100 for a full force if one uses standard internet discount to one's advantage. How much of a 40K army can you build for $100?

For $100, I can field 1500 pts of AoBR marines.

The problem is Warmachine armies have far less models.

You might as well compare Warmachine to Mordheim or something.

JohnHwangDD wrote:For $100, I can field 1500 pts of AoBR marines.

Marines are about all you'll get away with, and not after the price increase. WM is a cheaper game.

The game scales are different. It's not like it's graven in stone that 40k must be played at the 1500+ pt level. 40k can play at 500-1000 pts, which is quite a bit cheaper. WM/H can play larger, which would be more expensive.

Its funny, alot of people are saying that GW makes the "best" miniatures availible, and I find this statement sooooo hard to swallow.

Personally, I would say I'm more a miniatures painter (center of my interest) than a wargamer, but I use the wargame rules to justify my constant spending on miniatures

But, having a main interest in minatures as opposed to rules, I can safely say that GW is one of the least accomplished miniatures manufacturers....please don't make me talk about their fantasy battle range.....please.

Some of the Wh40K stuff is ok, but thats just it, its ok....

As far as the rules themsleves go, yes, they appear to be playable, a little simple, U GO I GO, type of affair, but ideal if you want a relatively quick game.

The fluff is expansive, as you'd expect for a game with so many years behind it.....however, I think this leads to its main drawback....its stale, WH40K fluff is stale as out of date bread! The writers of said fluff must have gotten their writing inspiration from The Mr Men range of childrens books.....

All in all, there should be nothing holding back your average adult from not only looking, but wanting to branch out into other gaming areas.

The ones who state that GW is the only product producer for them, and please don't take offence to this, in my opinion, must be very young indeed.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The game scales are different. It's not like it's graven in stone that 40k must be played at the 1500+ pt level. 40k can play at 500-1000 pts, which is quite a bit cheaper. WM/H can play larger, which would be more expensive.

Do you want to do an honest comparison or keep talking sideways? Sure 40K can be played at the 100pt. level if you wanted, but you and I both know that it isn't and won't be. 40K is rarely played at less then 1500pts. by the vast majority of the player base, and if it is it is because people have what are considered incomplete forces or they are playing some gimmick game as the result of a campaign scenario requirement, etc.

This is a fact.

Sure you can play 1500pts. of AOBR marines if you want to play an army of all tactical squads and a dreadnoughts. Most marine armies are NOT made up of all tact squads and dreadnoughts however. Yes you CAN do it, but the vast majority of players don't and wouldn't.

WM is often played at the 500pt level. Most starters get you over 200 pts. of this at present, another unit or two a warjack and a solo or two easily gets you a full army with a variety of model/unit types.

Wm is cheaper to build a "real" army (not an army of all single pose tact. marines) to the standard game size then 40K every time. 100% fact.

I play both games and have thousands of points in each system. None of my WM armies cost anywhere neasr as much as my 40K armies.

IF you don't like WM or are in love with GW that is fine, but lets keep the facts straight...

In Western Australia, GW is the only wargaming company. I believe some other miniatures are stocked in small amounts by one store that has been forced into a low-vis basement across the other side of the capital city from the GW store, but thats just rumor.

Around here most people do a double-take if you ask them if they've heard of Rackham or Confrontation, or even Battlefleet Gothic or Bloodbowl. Hell most people haven't heard of Dark Eldar, and there's only one other guy I know who knows what squats were.

So around here, I play GW because there is literally no other real wargaming alternative.

CT GAMER wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The game scales are different.

Do you want to do an honest comparison or keep talking sideways?

Wm is cheaper to build a "real" army

IF you don't like WM or are in love with GW that is fine, but lets keep the facts straight...

I hardly consider 500 pts of WM a "real" army - it's a small skirmish force, whereas 40k is a large skirmish force.

And fact for fact, my dollars don't go as far with WM, when I look at playable models per dollar spent as any kind of metric. Especially when one factors in how WM milks you into buying all of their rulebooks.

Now if Retribution is any indication, WM is going to cost just as much as GW, except you'll have half the minis, and they'll look worse to boot.

The way around game rules inertia is to host games. That is to say one player collects all there really is to collect up to a comfortable points cap in a single game system and others then ignore it.

Around here virtually everyone only plays Warhammer and 40K, some of the kiddies play LOTR but they dont really count.

However I host Battlefleet Gothic, that is to say I have many fleets and bring more than I need to a game, one for me, others to loan out. I also host Warmachine and am also collecting At-43 for the intention of hosinting that too, and also host Descent, though as a self contained boardgame, albeit one with many attachments it doesnt really count.

A friend of mine is hosting Confrontation and Flames of War under the same principles, another hosts Wargods of Aegyptus and a third hosts Mordheim.

While I loan out my 40K armies too I dont count that as hosting as most gamers have thier own, though I certainly have enough to host. My Warhammer fantasy armies are larger but fewer, I font have enough to share around.

Looking at it, a lot of people cite money.

Well, I may not be a Sentinel, but I can point to AT-43's Army Boxes that are coming out.

The Red Block's box has a 12 man squad, an 8 man squad, a 6 man elite squad, a pair of heroes and their strider (let's call it a dreadnought or vehicle), and the DOTCH YAGA, which is a big ol' vehicle. So, in basic terms, 3 infantry squads and two vehicles (plus dice, tape measure, terrain, etc, but we're not counting that now). The 40k value would be.....what, $35 for the first squad (we'll call it a full tac squad equiv), $20 for the second (combat squad), we'll just call the elite troops Sternguard, so another $35, and two vehicles, each at $40. Total is $170.

Rackham sells it for $70. Furthermore, they're pre-painted; if you don't like it, then you can just prime and paint them yourself. Oh, and it also comes with a copy of their "Introductory Rules" and army book. Do you want to add in another....what, $30 for the 'dex, and....$25 for the rules?

If you're comparing army boxes, then you need to use a GW army box, either AoBR or a Battalion Box.

The gamers in my area have been bitten a few times. Games are kinda scarce in the Southeastern US and the games that are played are GW related. Warmachine/Hordes, AT43, Flames of War, have all come and gone and while some folks bought armies it never reached a critical mass to keep folks playing.

Wolfstan wrote:The club that I belong to is looking to run a gaming Open Day to promote gaming. The idea is to get together the known clubs in our area and have them all host a different system. This then lets other gamers know what clubs are around and what systems are supported.

With this on my mind I stumbled in to the above idea for this post. On DakkaDakka there can be quite heated posts about GW and their systems. People moan about the rules and the cost of the models, so I was wondering if people actually look at other systems? If not why not, what is stopping you playing another system?

Having played 40k for a large chunk of my gaming life, and having stopped about 3 years ago, I find that that there are other systems out there that give me as much satisfaction as any GW ruleset.

I currently play:

Rules of Engagement
Urban War
Metropolis
Pirates
Confrontation 3
AT43

I will also be play, once I've finished the forces:

PBI
AK47
Flames of War
Infinity
Hell Dorado

I enjoy all of the above and have no problem with never playing 40k again, although I may do some 40k in 40 minute forces in the future.

I LOLed this post.

Where to start, where to start...

Nothing stops people from trying other systems. Its the cost to get in that keeps them from coming back.

COST is the major issue. Cost in time, and cost in cash.

Personally, I can say that I have pretty much played since the inception of GW, and on the whole, gaming companies come and go. People can "Claim" that GW will be the be all and end all, but this train of thought forgets the Avalon Hill days, the GDW days, and the FASA days.

Avalon hill was a once forerunner of the gaming world. WW2, Historicals, Squad Leader, etc. etc.etc. They had alot of games that kept people coming back for more, as the inception of the computer, though, they could see the writing on the wall, and we all know what happened next.
$ $ $

Games I've played have been fun. even if I try a game one or two times, I'm one to buy a model or two and paint it up to see how it feels, have a couple on hand to play here and there, and along with my craptasticly bad buisness sense, I will either buy sell or trade the minis into oblivion.

Battletech.
Warhammer Fantasy
Warhammer 40K
Epic
Titan Legions
Battlefleet gothic
Necromunda
Mordhiem
Man o War
Starship troopers
D and D ( grenada minis)
Reaper's Warlord
Steel Legion
Mutant Chronicals
Warmachine
Hordes
Flames of War
Judge Dredd, ( two different games on equal ends of the suck spectrum)
Void
Vor
Legend of the Five Rings
Civil War
WW3
Twilight: 2000 with 1/72d minis
A couple of different Star Trek games
A couple of different Babylon five games
AE WW2
Secrets of the 3d riech
Spinespur
Superfigs
and...

green army men.

I've tried most everything on the market. some I pick up and play for a bit, then put in the back burner. Others, I play and keep around for a laugh.
Still others....

I can't GIVE away the minis and books for, so hence, I get stuck with a turd.

Honestly, I can say that the old school games with the cardboard chits were more fun for a FUN experience that made you want to play more.
The minis are just an advance form of them. Tabletop mini's in itself is a heck of an investment. Even more when you have asstastic companiers charge extream prices for the product, then they go and end up shlocking thier own product, so in essence, you as a player end up getting the shaft.

MONGOOSE cough cough..

Actions from one company end up jacking it up for the others, and in more situations then I can count, I have seen game shops go the way of the do-do on the rise and fall of different games.

Stores that tried to flagship in one particular game, ala GW pigeon hole themselves into a corner. The stores that have a variety, but don't over emphesise give themselves the lattitude to try that something new, and not get to caught up in the $$$ nicks of the companies themselves.

Hence- PLAYERS then are influanced by thier local scene as to what they will and won't try.

The most costly example I can give is when GW changed from its 2d edition, to its 3d.

At this time, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, and Inquisitor were all vieing for peoples cash. I watched the whole GW scene pretty much come to a freakish halt, as people were left to try to figure out WTF was doing.
Alot of us then stopped quipping around with 40K for a bit, and then moved on to fantasy, LOT5R, Battletech, etc. until the companies figured out themselves who was going to get it up and get on the road to recovery.
Then we sat back and watched as FASA, Avalon Hill, GDW, etc. all take the piss on the markets, and die.

Westend was out there, Steve jackson, etc. who along with TSR were all left feeling the effects of the computer revolution.

and now we come to today.

There are still up and coming gamers and companies out there, and in that sphere, it doesn't take much for the companies to figure out if they want to gedt it on and start up in the big leagues.... only to be threatened, coorced, or bullied into second class citizenship by larger companies, such as HASBRO, GW, etc.

Games are going to continue to come and go, and more importiantly, they will be there to try.

If anything, there is a variety. You don't have to trap yourself in one game.

Opponents. That's all.

I live in a small-ish city (<2m people), so opponents aren't easy to come by.
I have a painted VOID Junker army which I never got to use (for it's intended purpose, I use them to proxy Imperial Guard sometimes). Apparently the same minis are used for Urban War but I can't find anyone who plays that either.
I sold my Epic Eldar army off without ever getting a game.
My friend bought into a game called Wargods of Aegyptus, it was a neat game, but I didn't buy in because we couldn't convince anyone else to play (I proxied with Dwarves)
I have hundreds of Mage Knight minis (Was originally a great game for highly technical play, unfortunately the 2.0 rules change killed it). At least they're great for D&D.
I could count the number of Lord of the Rings games I've had on two hands. I like the game and was going to do a WotR force, but realised I'd never get a game.
Another friend and I were looking for an alternative to Battletech to allow bigger games, we tried CAV, but geez Reaper were intent on making the game impossible to get into. As gung ho as we were (we managed 3 games) we gave up.
Over the years I've also had minis for Stargrunt and Trinity Battleground gather dust, although never made an attempt to play them.

So what games do I get to play sometimes?

40k is the forerunner of course, lots of people play.
Warhammer Fantasy, I have an army too, get the occasional game in.
Warmachine, I started this game while 40k was going through a dry spell locally. I started purely because I wanted to be able to get a game! We've got a strong Warmachine scene and all my friends were playing. Didn't really like the game much.
Necromunda, I have many gangs and have a game here and there.
Battletech, used to play it heaps, I still get a game in here or there.
D&D 4E, not a wargame, but most of the mini painting I do these days is for our D&D game.

We have virtually no player base for any tabletop games other than 40K, Fantasy, and War of the Ring. Anyone who doesn't play those plays an RPG.

I have so many models at my house, if I buy any more I just might be killed.

Everyone in my area plays 40k, if i jump into another system I lose a base of 15 or so to 2.

I hate that i have already learned the rules for 40k, another intense ruleset might fry my brain.

I play with models too much with one gameset, two would be outrageous

Games Workshop is accesable, albeit expensive

Thats my 2 cents

Nothing, I've branched out into WM/Hordes and have large armies for both systems. I've also played a lot of the specialist line and have also wanted to get into Battletech as I love the universe.

But I always go back to 40K. It's like an old, worn, comfortable jacket that I just refuse to get rid of. I like the universe GW has created, and the large number of armies keeps my modelling side happy. I can convert many different things and there are almost limitless army ideas that fit the fluff.

I still have all my PP minis, but I rarely work on them as there isn't much room for converting in the WM/H rulesets. On the other side I have at least four 40K projects running at any one time, from IG to Deathwing, to Chaos to preheresy Marines. It lets me be creative with my modelling time, and that's where I spend most of my time in the hobby.

I currently very happy with Warmachine. I'm really to try new systems, but I want to see some people make the investment first. There are a few people at my LGS that bought flames of war stuff. They haven't actually played with it yet, so you won't catch me playing FoW for now.

Cheese Elemental wrote:We have virtually no player base for any tabletop games other than 40K, Fantasy, and War of the Ring. Anyone who doesn't play those plays an RPG.

So? What's stoppping you creating one if you fancy trying something different? If you're happy with GW, fine. But if you fancy a change why not lay out a few quid and try and get a friend interested in something different? As I posted further up the thread, for the cost of a battalion box, let alone the price of a new army you can try out an entirely different game if you want. All that's lacking is the will.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I hardly consider 500 pts of WM a "real" army - it's a small skirmish force, whereas 40k is a large skirmish force.

And fact for fact, my dollars don't go as far with WM, when I look at playable models per dollar spent as any kind of metric. Especially when one factors in how WM milks you into buying all of their rulebooks.

500pts. is a very common game size with 750pts. contending with it for the defualt game size for Wm due to the inclusion of Epic casters at the 750pt. level.

For 40K the most comparable game size is 1500pts. though I rarely meet anyone that wants to play less than 2000pts.

I can build a balanced AND competitive WM force at either 500 or 750pts. for any faction for far less then any similarly balanced and competitive 40K force at 1500pts. and definately if we talk the almost standard 2000pts.

That is what we are talking about: Which game is cheaper to build a standard points army for while still building a balanced and "real"( similar in form and diversity to what the average player would build) army and not a gimmick one made up of the same spammed units because you can get them cheap in a starter.

As for the books in WM. All you really need is Prime (the main rulebook). I have not bought any other books and have never found myself needing the others which mostly are fluff and unit info for armies I don't play. It is false that you need all the books to play. The models come with stat cards and the boxsets have the quickstart rules that are rather comphrehensive. Sorry but Wm is still cheaper...

How many models do you have in 500pts of WM? How many models do you have inn 1500 pts of 40k?

I still say that 1500 pts of 40k is a far larger skirmish force, given that 350 pts of WM is just a faction starter box.

As for WM being cheaper, the Retribution pricing says that WM isn't any cheaper aside from fielding fewer models.

JohnHwangDD wrote:How many models do you have in 500pts of WM? How many models do you have inn 1500 pts of 40k?

I still say that 1500 pts of 40k is a far larger skirmish force, given that 350 pts of WM is just a faction starter box.

That argument is a complete straw man.

The number of models in a "viable" force for a game is purely an aesthetic issue when it comes to judging the matter.

You may prefer more models on the table, I may prefer less. It doesn't matter. It also depends on what style of force is involved. An infantry-heavy WM force may well outnumber a vehicle-heavy 40k force. It is simply a red herring.

What DOES matter is the playability of the game at a give price or PV point.

A 500 point WM force gives an emanently playable game with much depth and many tactical options.
As does a 500 point LotR SBG force.
A 500 point 40k force or WFB force, not so much.

Assuming for the sake of argument (and I appreciate it is a BIG assumption, based on the fact that as I say above model count and force composition can vary tremendously) that 500 points of any given game system corresponds price and model-count -wise with any other, then that means that WM (and LotR) are better value for money than 40k and WFB, as you can have a viable, tactically deep game for on average less money. Given those rather heroic assumptions, of course.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you're comparing army boxes, then you need to use a GW army box, either AoBR or a Battalion Box.

Mmm, good point, fair enough.

The Space Marines Battleforce Box comes with a full tac squad, a combat squad, a scout squad, an assault squad, and a Rhino, for $90. So, compared to the Red Block army box, you swap out the heroic walker for an infantry squad, and swap out the DOTCH YAGA! for....a Rhino. And then pay $20 more.

Oh, the Red Block box is also playable out of the box. Don't think the SM one is.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

As for WM being cheaper, the Retribution pricing says that WM isn't any cheaper aside from fielding fewer models.

But thats the point. Wm units/models MAY cost a similar or higher amount then comparable 40K models, but the fatc remains that you need to buy less to play a standard game of WM then you do a standard game of 40K and that is all that matters for purposes of this discussion.

Wm IS cheaper to play then 40k assuming discussion of "standard sized" games for each. The fact thata Cygnar force for Wm COULD cost me as much as a typical Space Marine force costs IF I bought 25 warjacks (probably 22 more then I would ever field in one force) is irrelevant...

We are talking the reality of buying what you need to put togetehr and play a standard sized force for each game. Hypotheticals beyond this are irrelevant.

I play everything that isn't GW, they have sucked enough money out of me and will never get any more, except for the new IG 'dex.

I play;
AT-43
Confrontation (3 and 4)
Battlefield Evolution: world at war
Flames of War
Hordes
Star Wars
Full Thrust
Star Grunt
Babylon 5 Wars
Warmachine
And many others i cannot think of

@Mars. Techpriest on end of first page

I normally play Warmachine and Hordes with a polypocket covering the cards and then write on the cards.

JHDD: Game scale is a part of the aesthetic, but when you're talking army size you should
compare standard game size. What size army do you build for and what do you expect to
face when you go to a tournament/event/pickup game?

40k: 1500, 1850
Warmachine: 500, 750
Warmachine MKII: 35, 50

Saying that a game does not compare in model count is like complaining that Necromunda sucks
because you only have 10 models on the table and not 50. The game is built for 10 models, so
how does it play?

Warmachine is built for 10-40 models. How does that play?

JohnHwangDD wrote:How many models do you have in 500pts of WM? How many models do you have inn 1500 pts of 40k?

I still say that 1500 pts of 40k is a far larger skirmish force, given that 350 pts of WM is just a faction starter box.

As for WM being cheaper, the Retribution pricing says that WM isn't any cheaper aside from fielding fewer models.

1500 points of 40k is a larger skirmish force than 350 of WM. Usually its larger than a 500 point WM force.

If number of models was the lynchpin of a system's quality you could always play any of the 6mm napoleonics at a 1:1 scale. 6 and 15mm beat WH/WM on price per model too. 6 and 15mm WWII models can be used in several systems, making the total cost of these historicals lower. They must be better then! </sarcasm>

WM even rewards a player who buys a couple of idle command models as the command models impact game play. Calgar/Creed/whomever else you like do not modify synergies in 40k as a new warcaster does in WM.
40k is beautiful for fielding lots of models, and the synergies are much easier.

The average cost of either game still runs similar to the cost of a gaming console and a few games.
Minimum components for both are: Core Rules, Models, table supplies. We'll ignore Table supplies for a moment, because they're basically the same for both. All prices MSRP, and presume new entry into game.

Core Rules MSRP 40k: $57.75 WM: $24.99 Note: Army/faction books are not included here as those prices impact models more than rules.
Models:
- to include command, and enough to make a reasonable game (1500 and 500 points)
40k: Army Codex: $22 (lowest of all) 40k then has 16 possible armies - 8 having effectively identical costs
Army Minimum: $215 (IG: HQ, 2 troops,2HW squads. Bonus: 2 fast attack) Note: Minimum 1 HQ, 2 Troops.
WM: No codex necessary.
Army Minimum: $43.99 (Starter box) $43 (averaged non-character jack price) $53 (character Jack) $60 (infantry unit of choice) Note: Minimum is 1 Warcaster and units as desired.

The first argument against this above breakdown is Ebay/online. Bargain hunters can reduce costs however they like. The second is using IG for the 40k example rather than the AOBR. Consumers don't normally go into a store looking to break down a bundle package into what they want and what they can resell. If you want to discuss this, we can take it to PM. Consumers also aren't always going to gravitate to one army over another, hence there being 16 40k factions, and 4+ (if you count Hordes) WM factions. In the end, 40k is a buy in of about $5.96 per model and WM $7.20.

I suppose we have to ask how much your fun is worth?

What stops me is time, money and lack of people to play. I play 40k and Fantasy Battle because that is what my friends play and I enjoy these games, the backgrounds and stories therein. I also play Inquisitor, Mordheim and Blood Bowl again I can easily get a game of any of these and have enough models at home to "host" the game and lend people warbands, characters, teams etc, should the need arise.

I have looked at other systems - namely Warmachine/Hordes and while I thought it sounded interesting it wouldn't be worth my time investing in it. Even if by comparison it is cheaper than 40k and Fantasy Battle I could spend that money on adding new stuff to my existing armies that would actually get used rather than on something which would likely never see the tabletop.

If I were budget-constrained, I wouldn't give WM a first look - from a pure value proposition based on model cost, WM/H is far worse than GW.

If I were going into a small dollar miniatures game, something like OGRE Miniatures is far preferable to WM/H. But at the "beer budget" level, agreeing to 500 pts of WM is the same as agreeing to play 500 to 1000 pts of 40k. And you can certainly agree to do that in your gaming group - that's what we did when 40k first came out and we got new players into things.

If I were severely limited to "pocket money", then none of the above apply, and we look at things like Mordheim or Necromunda, both of which are fantastically playable for less than $50 in models and a common rulebook.

Failing that, you go over to the board games and break out something like Battlelore / Heroscape, which is $50 for the entire group.


But claiming that 500 pts of WM is the "same" as 1500+ pts of 40k is untrue. The game scale is smaller, and you are spending more per model. And that is my point. It's not apples to apples.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I were severely limited to "pocket money", then none of the above apply, and we look at things like Mordheim or Necromunda, both of which are fantastically playable for less than $50 in models and a common rulebook.

Regardless, though, even these can easily get much, much more expensive if you really want to get into them (tools, conversion materials, replacement figures for new gangers, additional gangs, terrain-building materials), so my advice to people who're concerned about the loss of cash has always been and will always be to find some other hobby.

Oh, no doubt.

For example, our local WM player is a Press Ganger, and she probably has at least 1 of everything PP has ever produced. I'm pretty sure she has spent more on WM than I have spent on 40k, lifetime. And if you see my sig, I'm not small potatoes in 40k spend.

But even so, the fact that a Mordheim or Necromunda gang is limited to a dozen or so models helps limit the cost somewhat. Same with Blood Bowl.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I were budget-constrained, I wouldn't give WM a first look - from a pure value proposition based on model cost, WM/H is far worse than GW. ...And that is my point. It's not apples to apples.

By its very nature it can not be an apples to apples discussion. The games operate on a different scale - making the relative value of each model in each game inconsistent.

" from a pure value proposition based on model cost"
<insert 15mm WWII game here> beats GW's cheapest troopers at a cost of $0.28 each. Edit: cost correction as some GW plastics are only approximately 4x more expensive)

WWII 25mm run around $14 for 8 models making infantry more expensive, but the $30 tanks sway that balance.

Also, consider that 1500 points of GW models (at 5.96 each) is about 62 models. $369.52
500 points of WM is around 21 models (at $7.20). $151.20
369.52 - 151.20= 218.32

How would you like to make this apples to apples then JHDD? Matching number of models? Tournament points conventions? Perhaps average game time?

Ogiwan wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you're comparing army boxes, then you need to use a GW army box, either AoBR or a Battalion Box.

Mmm, good point, fair enough.

The Space Marines Battleforce Box comes with a full tac squad, a combat squad, a scout squad, an assault squad, and a Rhino, for $90. So, compared to the Red Block army box, you swap out the heroic walker for an infantry squad, and swap out the DOTCH YAGA! for....a Rhino. And then pay $20 more.

Oh, the Red Block box is also playable out of the box. Don't think the SM one is.

That's irrelevant since Warhammer 40K starts out of the Black Reach box and you add the Battleforce on, giving you:

1 Commander
2x 10 man Tactical Squad
Rhino
1x 5 man Tactical Squad
5 man Scout Squad
5 man Assault Squad

That is a very playable small army.

Asmodai wrote:
That's irrelevant since Warhammer 40K starts out of the Black Reach box...

Um, what about those people who *don't* play Orks or Marines?

Oldgrue wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I were budget-constrained, I wouldn't give WM a first look - from a pure value proposition based on model cost, WM/H is far worse than GW. ...And that is my point. It's not apples to apples.

" from a pure value proposition based on model cost"
<insert 15mm WWII game here> beats GW's cheapest troopers at a cost of $0.28 each. Edit: cost correction as some GW plastics are only approximately 4x more expensive)

WWII 25mm run around $14 for 8 models making infantry more expensive, but the $30 tanks sway that balance.

Also, consider that 1500 points of GW models (at 5.96 each) is about 62 models. $369.52
500 points of WM is around 21 models (at $7.20). $151.20

How would you like to make this apples to apples then JHDD?

Model scale-wise and general play-wise 40k and WM are comparable. The only difference is that WM uses far fewer minis because the WM/H game system is RT-clunky and fails to scale like 40k does.

I think historical WW2 gaming is a different kettle of fish altogether compared to science/steam fantasy, although I do like Flames very much. If I could get my group into this, that'd be awesome.

For me to make the comparison, I'd look at closer model counts, shrinking 40k down to RT-era game sizes, where the rules go back to the same scale of gaming. Also, I wouldn't inflate the GW model cost to $6 each, as even a Tactical Marine is only $3.50, and they're 10/box at the large box price. As I see it, 500 pts of WM is like 500 pts of 40k, with similar model counts, and likely lower costs for the 40k player.

But seriously, who stops at 500 pts or WM or 1500 pts of 40k and calls it their main game? Anyone?

And who seriously looks at WM or 40k as a "budget" game? Anyone?
____

Oldgrue wrote:

Asmodai wrote:That's irrelevant since Warhammer 40K starts out of the Black Reach box...

Um, what about those people who *don't* play Orks or Marines?

What about those people who don't play Therians or whatever-the-humans-are-in-the-AT43-boxed-set?

Starter boxes are comparable, both having the quickstart rules and starter sets. Going beyond that is like comparing AT43 gorillas to 40k Nids.

Nothing stopped me from trying a different system. Now I play Monsterpocalypse!

Around these parts (Adelaide, Australia), we play 40k mostly at 1200 or 1500 points. 1200 is the more common tournament size, and 1500 is a "big" game (and more common for friendlies). We've had one 2000 point tournament in the last two years, and I didn't go because I don't have an army that big (but I have 5 at 1500 points).

1200 makes for a very good game and is quite affordable, especially for Marines or Orks (2x Assault on Black Reach, one extra box, done).

Because no one I know plays anything else. I would like to try out other systems but truthfully it's more money I would have to spend and at my LGS it's only 40k. The only other systems I would want to try is Warmachine and Flames of War.

I used to play Void 1.1. but it went bye-bye.
Currently i'm starting to prepare a force of Anima:Tactics and i'm considering delving into WH: Fantasy or Lotr besides WH40K.

In all honesty the game may not be perfect but for me it's the background, the visuals and the preparation that's my main point of interest. And i'm really not discontent about the 40K system. It does it's job. Perhaps not for some of the harcore players but well enough for one like me who only rarely gets to play.

But above all... nobody plays the others around here. Heck even 40K is rare. Only Fantasy is dominant near me. And perhaps soon a bit of lotr. So if i want a game i go for the big ones.
And since i read the novels and all, i don't mind. Few mini games have the same rich background, if any.

I've danced around the notion of playing different miniature games other than 40k or WHF, but have not talked myself into spending money that could go into my next 40k project on a new game. In the end I absolutely love the fluff behind the 40k universe. I'm an avid reader of the BL novels and until I lose interest I don't see me taking on different projects related to other games.

Also having actual time to play something else would be like finding a needle in a haystack. I play D&D every other week. I try to get in a game of 40k every week and have all the other RL time commitments to deal with. I'm sure there are some other great systems out there; I've just thrown my lot in with GW.

The problem a lot of people have got is this idea of investing in a system where everything is provided on a plate and continued support will go on for ever and there is already a ready-made userbase to play with. That's what you get from GW and it's what the would-be GW rivals are trying to provide.

Longterm wargamers look at things differently.

If you buy historical figures in the standard scales they can generally be used with any ruleset you like. Loads of rules are available, some of them are expensive and some are free. If you play skirmish level games you only need a small number of figures per side. If you want to play something a bit more on the wild side, play a pulp fiction or alternative history game and you can use historical figures along with a few special character figures.

SF/Fantasy games are a somewhat different matter but the ones that are most system-like are the ones that are trying (and often failing) to rival GW. However, there are plenty of SF rulesets around and loads of figures which are in on of the system titles. I am sure there are Fantasy rules and figures too though I'm not so interested in that genre.

I once did a big 15mm SF demogame at a show, using the Laserburn rules, official Laserburn figures for the Imperial forces and the primitive rebel forces were all 15mm historical Aztec animal knights. The scenario objective was a reactor made of a resin SF bunker and a plastic pen holder for the cooling towers.

People should use some adaptability.

I always found this kind of discussions odd especially when it's on WH40K or WH:F boards. People go there to fill entire threads flaming WH40K and WH:F or trying to shove Warmachine etc through people's throats. Not saying it applies to this thread but it reminds me of the phenomenon.
It's... kinda annoying and odd.

Nothing. I'm planing on branching out into Hordes at the moment.

HI all.
Just like to point out most other game systems are far more 'intuiative and elegant rules wise' than 40k and WH.

So dont assume other rule sets are as hard to learn /make sense of as 40k!
Basic rules , exceptions to basic rules , universal special rules that contradict the basic rules and/or basic rule exeptions, and special rules that may contradict universal special rules,basic rules and or any/all of the exceptions ....
All implemented with SEVEN resolution methods !

Most just have basic rules that cover ALL game play . An 2 or 3 resolution methods.Twice a simple rules , twice as much game play =4 times as much fun!

Of course, those games are simpler - they don't cover anywhere near the breadth of 40k. A half-dozen factions (at most), no Tanks or Transports, etc.

Strip out the things that make 40k interesting and 40k becomes just as easy (and boring) as the rest.

Whilst that is true, the reason why 40K is filled with exceptions is because they never sit down and rationalise the system and all codexes for each edition.

JohnHwangDD wrote:But seriously, who stops at 500 pts or WM or 1500 pts of 40k and calls it their main game? Anyone?

DD: Sometimes I think that you get off on being deliberately obtuse.

1. Lots of people play games of WM at 500 and 50k at 1500. This is usually due to one of two common factors: 1. Time available to game. 2. Models available to game. When playing WM, I play at the 500 point level almost exclusively as larger games limit the number of games I can play in one afternoon.

2. GW's ruleset, while having a lot of factions, and a lot of different unit types is extremely homogenous and limited in terms of what those different unit types can actually do. This is by design as having more complicated rules would bog down gameplay. Warmachine and Infinity are model level skirmish level games with emphasis on interactions between individual models, and WH and WH40k are squad based skirmish games with interactions between squads. They really are different animals and as such, one system can not be said to be inherently better than the other. Where as one might assert that WM has "complex, clunky rules" and is overly combo based, one could just as easily say that player options in 40k are rudimentary and overly streamlined. It is just a matter of personal preference.

I play 40k because it is widely supported and it is easy to get a game in. I find PP's games more intelectually stimulating to play as the increased interactions between models alows for more options and dramatic comebacks.

I feel like this question is really asking "What is stopping you from buying into another system?"

I think most people here would try something if you handed them the rules and the models/playing pieces. We're all gamers. That's not the issue, or the thrust of the TC, I think.

Nothing has stopped me from buying into new systems. I bought into Flames of War in 2008, and so far in 2009 I have bought into two games, Star Wars Pocketmodels and AT-43.


Last year a friend convinced me to start Flames of War. I was very skeptical. It was going to be about $350 to start it off with a 1,500-point army (I go all in or not at all), but he didn't want to play the Germans as he's Jewish and needed someone to join in, and he's a buddy so I bit the bullet and said "What the hell."

I can't say we got lucky, really, because FoW is a superlative game. I prefer it over anything else I've ever played - but I can't say I'd done much research beforehand, I just like WW II history and therefore loved the models. Turns out the game is awesome, and now 10 people in my club play it with more looking into joining us, so now the investment feels justified. We're even cranking out 15mm WW II terrain and people are discussing their second armies already, moving from Late War to Mid-War Africa.


With the Star Wars Pocketmodels, I just love Star Wars, and the same buddy was playing that, and so I picked up a bunch of them cheap online...then played the game and instantly hated it. Again, I bought in because I loved the little styrene ships, and what a novel idea. I wasn't aware of the Pirates game until after I got my hands on the Pocketmodels, but the idea of little push-together styrene ships seemed awesome.

Game sucked, am almost done selling everything. Friend has his crap in a tupperware container somewhere.


With AT-43 I was the insitgator on that one, mostly because I love toys and here were toys with rules and everything was dead cheap online. Bought three armies with the intention of pioneering the game at my club, my buddy from FoW and the PocketModels joined me (my turn to cost him some money, I decided!), played a bunch of games with each army I had, he dropped out after one marathon gaming session because he hated the rules, another friend bought a Therian army and during his second full game actually wanted to walk away from the table, and the most reaction I got out of people at the club was "Wow, those containers are cool."

I also decided the game sucked, and now am selling everything except some of the shipping containers which I am repainting to be Imperial Guard terrain in green with Imperial Aquila in tune with the upcoming Planetstrike expansion. Something good came out of it. AT-43 terrain is easily re-painted and re-purposed for 40K.

So, in buying into new games I went 1 for 3, which is a bad enough percentage for me NOW to be gun-shy. What will stop me from buying into another system? Fear that the game might suck, the need to purchase models or playing pieces to find out for myself, and lack of a sizeable player base.


If I ever think about buying into a different game again, I will do the following:

1) If it is a game I am considering pioneering I will find every review utterly trashing the gameplay. You learn much more from negative reviews than positive reviews, IMHO. My wife never buys any item of clothing, piece of electronics, or makes hotel reservations for us until she's seen every a-hole ripped into that item or place that anyone could rip. Then she decides. If you can't find too much negative info, then it might be worth it.

One lesson I have learned in regards to negative reviews is that if you really can't find ANY then it probably means that only the fanboys are talking about it, and that tells you something in and of itself. You can find pages and pages of people ripping apart 40K and WHFB gameplay because so many people have played it - so you know that the game has spread far and wide and that the player-base is large.


2) I will see whether I can get my hands on the models from someone else, and not just for one demo game, but someone with a DEEP model collection for an army who can lend me a book so that I can try building armies myself and see what I think for many, many games. If the gameplay is good enough to keep me coming back for more demos, then I might be onto something.

I won't decide whether to buy into a game ever again until I've been able to test its depths of gameplay and give myself ample time to find all the problems I can find.

I don't mind spending time playing a new game because it puts the existing games I play in a different light, and helps me appreciate their good points more. As a result of playing FoW, I appreciate the speed with which a 40K game goes. As a result of playing AT-43, I appreciate the superlative quality and the rules support and the player base that 40K gives me.

I do mind having to spend my money to learn that a game sucks for me.

If I cannot find someone with enough enthusiasm for the game to own multiple armies, or someone willing to bring someone else along with him while he lends me his armies, then that will speak to whether there's a player base, which brings us to...


3) I will see how large the established player-base is.

My intention in purchasing three AT-43 armies was that I would be demo'ing the game to people and hopefully getting them into the game. I won't ever do that again. Trying to start up a community around a specific game system is a massive pain in the ass for me, and I have better things to do with my time. Like posting on message forums.

I also am not willing to keep odd hours or travel long distances to find opponents for a new game. I could wake up on Saturday mornings at the crack of dawn or travel an hour+ straight from work once a month to get AT-43 games in and have a bunch of opponents, but that begins to become work to go so far out of my way just to play a game. I have a feeling that any niche system is going to require something along the same lines to find opponents for it.

My gaming club meets on Thursdays, and is huge. If enough people there play a game, I will look into it. I've never played WHFB, and plenty of people have armies to lend me. I'm not interested in painting up fantasy stuff but I would learn the game as most people play it. A bunch of people play Warmachine, and it seems like a pretty popular game, so if people lend me books and models I'll try that, as well.

Words of wisdom. You're quite true though i know i'll fall into the trap of buying in the spur of the moment 'something'.

Opponents for me as well, not willing to spend serious funds on a game for it to sit on the shelf.

At the moment I have two opponents, my wife and a friend who can barely get a bi-monthly game of 40K together due to family commitments, which is fair enough.

I'd love to play Flames of War, but my wife refuses to play games based on Military history, and my friend isn't able to look at any other systems tbh.

I keep glancing towards AT-43 but not sure that will happen although partially thats due to rules issues when we briefly tried Confrontation. They need to employ some better rule converters in my opinion.

Apart from those not much interests me, Warmachine is no good as I hate the Jacks, I think they look awful.


The only hope I have atm are my sons, just got into Stars Wars Miniatures as the eldest is a huge fan of Clone Wars series.
I've had to dumb it down a little as he's five, but he loves the game, even though he insists on being the baddies. (I wanted the baddies.. *mope*) So hopefully in six odd years I'll have someone interested in trying oddball stuff with me.

Hehe sounds familiar. i mostly need to rely on my 'little' brother to get games in and a trimonthly visit to the gamestore :p

And i started the SW mini's a while just stopped as i couldn't keep up.

LunaHound wrote:Its the fear.

Fear of spending money into a game to have it disappear from the market , or lack of people to play with.

Play Battletech. It has been around longer, and had fewer rule changes.

@Keezus: Agreed on all points. Perhaps the illogical points values comparisons will fade away in MkII, That they exist now is dumb as 500 points of 40k is nothing like 500 points of Warmachine. Flames of War makes a reasonable direct comparison point for point with 40k.

Over 20-something years of gaming I've picked up lots of different systems. (I dread to think how much money has been spent in the process)

The crucial factor is whether whatever my local gaming club at the time continued to play it.

Very few lasted more than 6 months. Quite a lot lasted less than that.

The games I'm still coming back to every so often are Blood Bowl, Space Hulk & Full Thrust. The Star Wars TCG (from Decipher) is suggested fairly often but deck building is an enormous chore if you aren't very familiar with all of the cards which makes it very difficult to dip back into.

Yeah over here the SW TCG is remembered VERY fondly too.

Trasvi wrote:In Western Australia, GW is the only wargaming company. I believe some other miniatures are stocked in small amounts by one store that has been forced into a low-vis basement across the other side of the capital city from the GW store, but thats just rumor.

Around here most people do a double-take if you ask them if they've heard of Rackham or Confrontation, or even Battlefleet Gothic or Bloodbowl. Hell most people haven't heard of Dark Eldar, and there's only one other guy I know who knows what squats were.

So around here, I play GW because there is literally no other real wargaming alternative.

I beg to differ on that one yes there is the evil ones here and yes i did played there systems a long long time ago (1st ed WH40k Epic Space marine 3rd ed WHFB) but there are other clubs in W.A. that rarely play or even look at 40k and WHFB they play PP games like Warmachine and Hordes as well as Flames of War and historical systems i myself am a big fan of Star Grunt 2 by Ground Zero Games i been playing it in 15mm at the moment its great fun and cheap too oh yea and the Low-vis basement gaming store was there long before GW turned up in W.A