I was thinking about this. In the SM codex and in the fluff it says that female space marines can't be possible due to the fact that the gene seed or whatever it was is keyed to male tissue types. But I think it's possible to create enhanced female warriors but just not in the same way as males for space marines. The SOB's would be the most likily canidates since they go through strict training anyway. I think these enhanced females should need far fewer implanted organs (and no gene seed) than the males because the process will enhance the properties of the vital organs that they already have rather than implanting more, therefore the process would take less time. The process should enhance the female's speed, agility, healing from injuries, and such. Because the females don't have all of the implanted organs of a space marine, appearance wise they'll look just like regular females. I'll work on in detail later of how it'll be done but I think COULD be possible...

There have been a lot of threads about this. Most of it has resulted in some extreme NERD RAGE. You can even check out Doc Thunder's Female Space Marine Conversion threads for what this might look like.

tigonesskay wrote:I'll work on in detail later of how it'll be done but I think COULD be possible...

It's science fiction. It's possible if you say it is.

Female Marines?

Sisters of Battle.

I'm all for the idea of female space marines. I think they would be plenty more efficient/powerful. Have you seen women in aerobics classes? They're fething amazing. And I'm not talking about step-aerobics either. Now combine THAT with organ augmentations... hella dope.


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Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Female Marines?

Sisters of Battle.

Not really... they're devoted warriors in power armor but they don't have the augmentations of Space Marines.

My bad. It's just they have the same statline as manly Spess Mehreenz that had me convinced of that.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:My bad. It's just they have the same statline as manly Spess Mehreenz that had me convinced of that.

and isn't that awesome? We augment those battle betties and they'd be OP!

is it possible, given the current fluff and canon and background to have Adeptus Astartes that are Female and are still in strict accordance with the fluff? No, probably not.

Is it possible to have enhanced warriors with all fours on the statline, wear power armor and carry bolters? Of course. The galaxy is a big place, everybody is looking for an advantage, and it's not hard to think of a matriarchal society with advanced tech that is fighting off the Imperium with female super soldiers.

To avoid the worst of the nerd rage, avoid the following things:
1) Marines with breasts syndrom. I'm not saying it can't be done well, but odds are pretty high that female super soldiers in full power armor would look pretty indistinguishable from males.
2) Trying to shoehorn female marines into "official" canon. Yes, the fluff is your own, but it's not worth your time to convice us that, say, the Salamanders have an all female company.
3) "hey, maybe the missing legions were struck from the record because they were women"

so i herd da 1k Sonz wer all wominz butt dey all got blowd up by Arrimen

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:so i herd da 1k Sonz wer all wominz butt dey all got blowd up by Arrimen

OMG 1k Daughters! OP!

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:My bad. It's just they have the same statline as manly Spess Mehreenz that had me convinced of that.

SoB would be pretty OP if they had the same stats as SM.


SM bio-enhancements don't work on women because the background says so. You can't argue with it just like you can't argue with the C'tan hating chaos or the orks being spores. It's a 40k fact.

Technically, you could Count the sisters as Spehss Marines, but then again, you could do taht with Orks.....

I don't think it's possible......

The fluff doesn't support female Space Marines in any way, indeed going as far as to say they would die if implanted. This does not automatically mean it can't happen, however. If the gene seed of a chapter mutated so it worked with a female rather than a male then it's possible the High Lords of Terra would order a female Chapter made, so long as the Gene Seed was stable in all other regards. Rather than wasting precious Gene Seed...

However, even that isn't likely unless they're especially hard up for Marines. The other option is an experimental chapter from the Black Founding, which rather ties in.

The easiest way to do it is to use Chaos Marines though. There are any number of ways it could happen (Slannesh thought it would be funny, Tzeentch could do it because...well, whatever reason he had and Fabious Bile would likely do it Just Because)

Sisters of Battle are not Marines. They wear Power Armour but the rest of there statline is a Guard Veteran rather than a marine. It's like saying an Inquisitor is a Marine because he can wear power armour. Plus, of course, none of them have the various implants that make a Marine.

They just won't need the same implants as space marines and won't need the gene seed at all. They just have organs that are only keyed to female tissue types.
As far as their stats is concerned The SM will of course be stronger but since the females will be faster and my aglie they'll have a profile like this
WS-5 BS-5 S-3 T-3 W-1 I-6 A-1 Ld-8 Sv-3

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:My bad. It's just they have the same statline as manly Spess Mehreenz that had me convinced of that.

Their stats are the same as a Guard Veteran (+ Power Armour), not Marines.

If you play CSM, just make them Slaneesh worshippers. Slanesh is capable of changing his/her gender, or even being both genders. Maybe all the sergeants are both genders, and as a gift, some marines are changed to females?

If anyone questions you on it, just say, "It's Chaos. It does what it wants. It doesn't have to make sense."

tigonesskay wrote:As far as their stats is concerned The SM will of course be stronger but since the females will be faster and my aglie they'll have a profile like this
WS-5 BS-5 S-3 T-3 W-1 I-6 A-1 Ld-8 Sv-3

That's just silly. Higher Initiative than Dark Eldar? The same Weapon and Ballistic Skill as their captains? Unmodified Strength and Toughness? (Or do you think regular women are S2 T2? And I5?)

Any bonus to being "faster and more agile" that women have is completely irrelevant on 40k's scale. Eldar are faster than anyone, but they don't even have those ridiculous stats on basic troops. Sisters of Battle are all women, and they just have all the same stats as guard veterans.

(Also, the fastest runners in the world are men more often than women.)

tigonesskay wrote:They just won't need the same implants as space marines and won't need the gene seed at all. They just have organs that are only keyed to female tissue types.
As far as their stats is concerned The SM will of course be stronger but since the females will be faster and my aglie they'll have a profile like this
WS-5 BS-5 S-3 T-3 W-1 I-6 A-1 Ld-8 Sv-3

Are you talking about rules, or fluff? Because that stat line would make your female super soldiers better than Eldar Aspect Warriors, or even arguably Harliquins. Women might be a bit more agile than men, but they are not more agile than Eldar, particularly not when stacked against Eldar women (Howling Banshees).

Also, to the background, keep in mind that most of 40k operates with an unreliable narrator. Female marines are impossible, to the best knowledge of the Adeptus Mechnicus, or even more likely, to the best knowledge of the Adept who was given this information by the AM, but that doesn't mean they are actually impossible. Even in real life, very little can be said to be truly impossible. Things might be impossible given current techniques, knowledge, understanding and technology, but there can always be advances that change things.

What's more likely is that there is simply no reason to create Female Space Marines. Why would anybody in the Imperium do this? Unless there's a particularly vicious warrior culture that only allows women to fight, why would they make the change to try to have female marines? Women can fight, I don't think anybody seriously doubts that, but human history includes few if any female warrior cultures outside of mythology, and that makes it less likely that there would be a female warrior population for a Chapter to draw from. (Of course, even there, it's possible that 38,000 years and the evolutionary stress of space travel and colonization could create such a culture).

I think the real question that needs to be asked in any Female SM situation is: Why do you want them? What is it that makes them appealing to you?

Real space marines goes through MANY process of extra implants with the most important gene seeds and black carapace . Sisters of battles and even initiates ( scouts )
dont even have any of those upgrades.

So sadly, only male Space Marines exists. But its ok , because Acts of faiths are so powerful too !

Polonius wrote:

What's more likely is that there is simply no reason to create Female Space Marines. Why would anybody in the Imperium do this? Unless there's a particularly vicious warrior culture that only allows women to fight, why would they make the change to try to have female marines? Women can fight, I don't think anybody seriously doubts that, but human history includes few if any female warrior cultures outside of mythology, and that makes it less likely that there would be a female warrior population for a Chapter to draw from. (Of course, even there, it's possible that 38,000 years and the evolutionary stress of space travel and colonization could create such a culture).

I think the real question that needs to be asked in any Female SM situation is: Why do you want them? What is it that makes them appealing to you?

Since it takes so long to make space marines the females would take far less time to create since they won't need all the organs that a space marine needs. Therefore you'll be able to have more of them. I had a hiccup when I put the profile I meant to put their initiative of 4 for regular troops and possibly 5 for elites. As far as background they could be 1. Former MIA sob's or female IG that got captured by dark elder or by chaos. They got "experimented" on. Only but a few of them survived the torture with their souls intacted. 2. IG females were turned into super soliders by accident. It could of been as of a result of a medical experiment or a vaccine or some other factor. Instead of letting a good thing go to waste the process was repeated and mastered.
As far as armor and appearance that's a tricky one. Just simply placing a femal head on space marine armor won't do. I thinking more of a cross between elder female armor, and the female inquistor armor.

Female space marines? sure, just dont give them giant breasts or hentai fluff. yes im looking at you doc thunder

To a point I actualy disagree with you tigonesskay. Now, it's possable there are no Female Space Marines because one of the genetic therapies used to create space marines has to interact with something on the Y chromasome to function. (though not likely, they're isn't much of anything on the Y chromasome)

However, if women could become Space Marines, I don't think they would look all that different in armor to males in armor. Assuming the organs and therapy work the same, the woman would gain mussle mass and increased bone structure (including height), fused rib cage, black carapase, etc. In the end, they'll look essentaly like a space marine, save for slighly narrower sholders and wider hips. As SM power armor isn't exactly formfitting, it'd make the most sense just to modify the bodysuit, and use the same armor for female marines as for male ones. Unless they're out of armor, there's not much reason to be able to tell the differance.

In my opinion, female Space Marines can happen. I think it actually should happen at some point.

it could be because of a gene seed screw-up, or a sister of battle wanted the SM therapy and made her own Chapter. idc how, I'm just saying it can and probably will happen.

I think I might actually write a short story on this.

ShadowAngel159 wrote:In my opinion, female Space Marines can happen. I think it actually should happen at some point.

it could be because of a gene seed screw-up, or a sister of battle wanted the SM therapy and made her own Chapter. idc how, I'm just saying it can and probably will happen.

I think I might actually write a short story on this.

1) It can't happen.
2) You will be ridiculed. Don't say you weren't warned.

Uhoh

GW says it can't happen, so it can't. End of discussion.

But really, why do you want female Space Marines? What's wrong with the Sisters?

Supersolder vs. not supersolder.

GWs been known to contradict their own fluff rather often, so it's really only a temperary end. But you are correct, GW's old fluff resorces do state it doesn't work on women. Not that that would stop me from playing someone with female marines.

Why do they have to be an exact copy of the male space marines? Couldn't they be just amped up SOB's or IG with a totally different procedure to enhance them?

Well, here's my question. Would you ever want to meet the female equivalant of Anngron?... I still have my theory's that s/he was just always experiencing her time of the month... But yeah, really? Really? This sound like a good idea? Why even bother?

I find it ironic that people don't realise that battle Nuns with freaking Flamethrowers are much cooler than Genetically Enhanced Chemically Controlled Super Warriors.

tigonesskay wrote:Why do they have to be an exact copy of the male space marines? Couldn't they be just amped up SOB's or IG with a totally different procedure to enhance them?

Their ability to "amp" stuff up is pretty much epitomized by the process Space Marines go through. A totally different procedure would most likely cost too much for too little benefit.

There are some enhanced warriors that still aren't space marines though; besides the various drugs and minor enhancements frequently given out to the IG, inquisitors, stormtroopers, and SOBs there are a whole bunch of upgrades made to the temple assassins. The problem is (a) these enhancements are mostly made in regards to the individual abilities a temple assassin needs to have, instead of the more general grab-bag of abilities space marines get, and (b) these enhancements are presumably so expensive that they can only be given to a very few people who are incredibly skilled and gifted. There seem to be quite a few other enhancements given to various Inquisitorial agents, but nothing that would put them at Space Marine level.

The other big one for enhanced warriors would be the Mechanicus Praetorians, although I think those are really a type of servitor, and are pretty far removed from a regular human.

If you guys must ask , just simply ask yourself this.

What female are more qualified than Sisters Of Battles to receive the marine upgrades?

None.

Now imagine current Sisters with Marine enhancement...
now thats scary!

Thank you Luna for just enhancing what I previously said to a higher extent. It'd be like Ultrasmurfs but worse...

LunaHound wrote:If you guys must ask , just simply ask yourself this.

What female are more qualified than Sisters Of Battles to receive the marine upgrades?

None.

Now imagine current Sisters with Marine enhancement...
now thats scary!

would they not just be the same as sm??? surely they would just be the same!!

im quite concerned how this has turned into another thread with the same stuff buzzing around.

really-who cares wether you can actually have femal space marines-the fluff says you cant, and whilst GW does change its spots more then a horney emo, i dont think they could really just write in "actually you can" and get away with it.

The idea of having a second founding ex communican or whatever it is could work, or maybe the warp made males females-who knows. writing your own fluff is a massive part of the game-for me anyway- and if it makes you happy who does it hurt, and if it makes no difference to gameplay???

I fear this is a dispute that will never end due to the "NO WOMEN" ideaology of some people. And it runs a parallel to the whole women on the frontline thing.
i must admit though the "SoB wanted to be a SM....so got it" arguement did make me laugh-i bet she did a presentation to the high lords of terra-it'd be like the apprentice!!!
in conclusion, i dont really care,

Fluffwise, no, there are NO female space marines
Physicalwise, maybe, all the processes are geared up for males and I think a previous version of fluff explained that the organs were rejected by female hosts.
That being said, you always have bionics available to IG which would be more sofisticated in the hands of SOB and the Adeptus anyway. And chances are any female given such upgrades wouldn't be in the IG anyway.


IMHO However, if someone wanted to field SOB in a space marine army that counted as a standard tactical squad using the army list in the marine codex then I wouldn't give a hoot.

As for the fluff, you can argue anything with a good story, technology is found as well as lost. My own fluff explains that my army has close ties with the Adeptus Mechanicus, so i could easily explain that this squad of female marines was granted a rare type of armour to bring them on-par with their fellow battle brothers.

If anyone gave me nerd rage over it I'd simply explain that my marines were renegade and stole the armour some corpse or another

Orkeosaurus wrote:

tigonesskay wrote:Why do they have to be an exact copy of the male space marines? Couldn't they be just amped up SOB's or IG with a totally different procedure to enhance them?

Their ability to "amp" stuff up is pretty much epitomized by the process Space Marines go through. A totally different procedure would most likely cost too much for too little benefit.

There are some enhanced warriors that still aren't space marines though; besides the various drugs and minor enhancements frequently given out to the IG, inquisitors, stormtroopers, and SOBs there are a whole bunch of upgrades made to the temple assassins. The problem is (a) these enhancements are mostly made in regards to the individual abilities a temple assassin needs to have, instead of the more general grab-bag of abilities space marines get, and (b) these enhancements are presumably so expensive that they can only be given to a very few people who are incredibly skilled and gifted. There seem to be quite a few other enhancements given to various Inquisitorial agents, but nothing that would put them at Space Marine level.

If you made some kind of background Fluff explaining how the females were enhanced and how the process is expensive and still in that "experimental stage" They can be considered elites or be limited in numbers as troops for gaming proposes.

Fluff-sure. Add a little Startekkie handwavem and BAM! chapter 997 Girly marines. (or Chapter 1...DA's which explains the dresses...)
lets face it the whole implant thingie needing male hormones is 1. wack 2. women have the ame hormones.

Modeling-We're talking 400lb ape men aren't we? You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and male members, except they'd have better fashion sense.
Putting this theory into practice, we can already see there are multiple female chapters: BA, Grey Knights, Thousand "Sons."

Space wolves and world eaters...not so much.

Frazzled wrote:Space wolves and world eaters...not so much.

Space Wolves are the manliest of manly who go around wearing fur!

I thought it was usually women who wore fur and had fantastic hair in strange sweeping styles...I vote that Space Wolf Lords officially change there name to Wolf Ladies.

Polonius wrote:I think the real question that needs to be asked in any Female SM situation is: Why do you want them? What is it that makes them appealing to you?

Judging from the models that most people make the answer would appear to be: boobies.

(I have seen a few female space marines that didn't have enormous breasts sculpted onto the their armour but they're definately in the minority)

What if a Marine gets a sex change?

Dreadwinter wrote:What if a Marine gets a sex change?

As far as just modifying his "parts" for the change I'd say things would be... interesting
Most likily the marine would be of chaos and slaanesh would do the work for him/her

corpsesarefun wrote:Female space marines? sure, just dont give them giant breasts or hentai fluff. yes im looking at you doc thunder

Ah, that's so thoughtful of you to troll me in someone else's thread.

I feel so embarrassed, though, I didn't get you anything.

So, the general NERD RAGE standpoint is:

Space Marines cant have boobs, they must have power schlong. Because the imaginary codex for the imaginary game says 'male tissues'.

I'd bet that whole opinion would change if they described the zygote implanting as being the equivalent of castration. Which lets face it- since their arent any space marine chicks, the Space Marine are really the Emporers Finest....eunuchs....

Mistress of minis wrote:So, the general NERD RAGE standpoint is:

Space Marines cant have boobs, they must have power schlong. Because the imaginary codex for the imaginary game says 'male tissues'.

I'd bet that whole opinion would change if they described the zygote implanting as being the equivalent of castration. Which lets face it- since their arent any space marine chicks, the Space Marine are really the Emporers Finest....eunuchs....

The chemicals used to alter them and chemicals used to sustain them would destroy any sort of Reproductive capability anyway.

Although Power Schlong is a nice thought for a Slaanesh Conversion...

Mistress of minis wrote:Space Marines cant have boobs, they must have power schlong.

I always though of it more as a power maul...

As for female Marines, I could see it happening, I just couldn't see the Imperium or Marine Chapters being happy about it.

I would say Fabius Bile could do it if he wanted too.

Also the idea someone mentions of Slaanesh Marines geting sex changes is a freaking interesting idea.

Now as for Sisters of Battle being amped up to Marine stats, I am pretty sure Combat Drugs could do the trick, just wouldn't vouch for the long term survival of the subjects. Perhaps Combat Drugs and some time of supplementary Blood Filtration system to monitor it and help stave off organ failure and what not.

Now female Chaos Marines who use Combat Drugs and are given resilience by their worship of Nurgle, that has potential as well. Female Plague Bearers... Hmm I wonder what diseases they might carry. Could be the basis for an interesting Slaanesh & Nurgle army.

Hell some kind of Tzeetch upgrade could work as well...

You know- this line of thought really makes me wonder why no one ever wants to make female orks...

De-calcification, when normal human females reach a certain age they somehow (I'm no doctor so I can't give much detail) start losing the calcium in their bones along with the power to regain it efficiently.

Considering that a Space Marine has a huge skeleton (entire chest is bone several times thicker tan normal ribs), this loss of calcium could be quite disastrous.

Dakkadood wrote:De-calcification, when normal human females reach a certain age they somehow (I'm no doctor so I can't give much detail) start losing the calcium in their bones along with the power to regain it efficiently.

Considering that a Space Marine has a huge skeleton (entire chest is bone several times thicker tan normal ribs), this loss of calcium could be quite disastrous.

Males also die at arround 60-100 years old, but space marines don't.


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Mistress of minis wrote:You know- this line of thought really makes me wonder why no one ever wants to make female orks...

Because orks are Asexual Fungus

Gwar! wrote:Because orks are Asexual Fungus

Funny, I think most gamers are too....

IMO female marines would be kinda hot, give somthin for the male ones to look forward to hehe , and its possible just make up fluff for it that the High Lords are working on a secret project and the female chapter are used to lure in Slanessh worshipers who cant resist then pow right in the kisser lol . I would think that Female Marines would be better at BS and I then S and A , woman are proven to be superior marksman compared to men and there usual more graceful and there patience can last forever just about. And Men are of course stronger naturally and more brutal having killed each other forever(woman being smarter too for staying out of it lol) not tryin to kiss ass just facts

Lord Chiasson wrote:IMO female marines would be kinda hot, give somthin for the male ones to look forward to hehe , and its possible just make up fluff for it that the High Lords are working on a secret project and the female chapter are used to lure in Slanessh worshipers who cant resist then pow right in the kisser lol . I would think that Female Marines would be better at BS and I then S and A , woman are proven to be superior marksman compared to men and there usual more graceful and there patience can last forever just about. And Men are of course stronger naturally and more brutal having killed each other forever(woman being smarter too for staying out of it lol) not tryin to kiss ass just facts

To Make up fluff is exactly the problem.

Where to start and where to end?

New selfmade:
Female
-orks
-nids
-necrons
-Sm

Or stay with:

Female
-eldar
-dark eldar
-tau
-IG
-inq
-sob
-csm

Why would you want female space marines from a military point of view?

Males (because om mucle mass etc) provide a much better template.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Why would you want female space marines from a military point of view?

Males (because om mucle mass etc) provide a much better template.

I think you bring up a good point from a realism standpoint, I just don't think that realism has any place in 40K.

If this were Star Trek, Star Wars, or any other sci-fi universe that was based even remotely on rational or scientific thinking, then I'd be with you 100%.

In 40K it's all just "magic"

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Why would you want female space marines from a military point of view?

Males (because om mucle mass etc) provide a much better template.

I think you bring up a good point from a realism standpoint, I just don't think that realism has any place in 40K.

If this were Star Trek, Star Wars, or any other sci-fi universe that was based even remotely on rational or scientific thinking, then I'd be with you 100%.

In 40K it's all just "magic"

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Just remember #3 at all times

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Why would you want female space marines from a military point of view?

Males (because om mucle mass etc) provide a much better template.

When your talking about radical genetic alteration that space marines receive, it doesnt seem likely that gender based muscle mass would be a factor compared to having a solid rib cage, having acid slobber, and being able to go into suspended animation etc etc

Marines aren't chosen just for muscle mass, if they were wouldnt they just pick Ogryn?...which brings up more fluff tangents....why dont we see Ogryn and ratling space marines!?! Ogryn could strap land speeders to their backs and use them for jet packs...weild a thunder hammer in each hand at initiative value all thanks to zygotey goodness!

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Why would you want female space marines from a military point of view?

Yes, why?

If those alterations work on both genders, why expend both in a war?
Don't you need your females to refill youre depleted ranks?
Isn't it easier to start a great crusade with males obeying orders than females who stop at every "cute" xenos?

Mistress of minis wrote:When your talking about radical genetic alteration that space marines receive, it doesnt seem likely that gender based muscle mass would be a factor compared to having a solid rib cage, having acid slobber, and being able to go into suspended animation etc etc

Of course, then you get into the question of why you would want them in the game anyways. They wouldn't retain any distinguishable traits that make them "female". They'd be the same hulking, brainwashed, inhuman monsters as every other space marine, only probably harder to make (considering the huge death rates for male initiates, the problems with geneseed mutations, and the regimen of extra hormones that would be required to get the organs to take). Plus, I have to say they'd fit in poorly with the monk/legionnaire/other traditionally male warrior style that the space marines usually have.

Marines aren't chosen just for muscle mass, if they were wouldnt they just pick Ogryn?

Suffer Not the Mutant to Live!

(Also, Ogryns aren't smart enough to trust for complex missions. They would have to be made into Space Wolves.)

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Marines aren't chosen just for muscle mass, if they were wouldnt they just pick Ogryn?

Suffer Not the Mutant to Live!

(Also, Ogryns aren't smart enough to trust for complex missions. They would have to be made into Space Wolves.)

Oh no you Didn't!

I think you mean Ultrapals

The important factor here is a vital step called "removal of the lady parts." That being said, there are female space marines. Well, what used to be anyway.

Gwar! wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Marines aren't chosen just for muscle mass, if they were wouldnt they just pick Ogryn?

Suffer Not the Mutant to Live!

(Also, Ogryns aren't smart enough to trust for complex missions. They would have to be made into Space Wolves.)

Oh no you Didn't!

Zing!

I think you mean Ultrapals

Well, if you made the Codex Astartes into a pop-up book you'd probably be set.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Suffer Not the Mutant to Live!

Umm, space marines are manufactured mutants...

Mistress of minis wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Suffer Not the Mutant to Live!

Umm, space marines are manufactured mutants...

Yes but they are pure mutants crated by Holy technology Ogryns are Abhumans. There is a difference

Mistress of minis wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Suffer Not the Mutant to Live!

Umm, space marines are manufactured mutants...

Heresy!

Next you'll be saying that The Emperor's Holy Inquisition should not be accompanied by flying, naked, mutant children!

Wouldn't becoming a Space Marine put you into a whole different race kinda? Superhumans who dont reproduce but pass on there genetic makeup, the removal of the geneseed being there contribution to continued existences? But like I said early you could just cook up a story that says there an experiment in females to get them by if you want to make a Chapter of em, but basically they'll just become Superhumans with boobs and alittle more hair and different reproductive organ which wont be used anyways, no big change really there still just be same old Space Marines in the end.

I expected that Thunder dude in here......

I say go for it.

But I swear, if anyone is doing this just purely for sex appeal then by God I'm creeped out.

Go make your female marine. But she'll probably be walking around with bigger ________ than norm.

/sigh

Reminds me: Dark Elves are the most Gender-Friendly race in WHFB: Witch Elves, Sorceress, Pretty much everything, etc.

Cryonicleech wrote:

Go make your female marine. But she'll probably be walking around with bigger ________ than norm.

You say that like its a bad thing.

Why would you want to create female space marines?

Darkchild

Mistress of minis wrote:So, the general NERD RAGE standpoint is:

Space Marines cant have boobs, they must have power schlong. Because the imaginary codex for the imaginary game says 'male tissues'.

I'd bet that whole opinion would change if they described the zygote implanting as being the equivalent of castration. Which lets face it- since their arent any space marine chicks, the Space Marine are really the Emporers Finest....eunuchs....

Actually I think wwaayy back in the day they actually were power armoured eunuchs. I'm guessing with them being warrior monks they wouldn't be "getting any" anyway.

In fact from what is said in one of the Ragnar/Space Wolf books tehy don't even have a sense of attraction to females anyway, they lose it during their upgrade. Is there not some mention in Fulgrim about Lucius starting to get odd or half remembered feelings of desire for a woman ?

With all the Testosterone normal marines get pumped with, if their nuts are even still existent it would be a miracle, much less usable.

Don't forget war is sex for space marines. Slaanesh gets to do both at the same time....

I heard in some old fluff that space marines had corbines
(excuse the spelling)...

tigonesskay wrote:I heard in some old fluff that space marines had corbines
(excuse the spelling)...

Yes, really old fluff stated that the ultramarines, like the romans they are patterned after, had concubines that served the chapter by bearing sons for the more successful warriors. The logic was that a child of a person who was able to survive the process of becoming a marine was much more likely to also survive the process then someone from the general population.

The idea that marines are castrated, either chemically or physically, is an internet urban legend, and has no basis in the fluff.

I find it disturbing that the Imperium only sees fit to deliver the sacred "gene seed" to other males. Eww.....

The homoeroticism in SM creation is enormous.

Really old fluff was also retconed out of existence. Otherwise Ultramarines would still be 3rd founding, and Leman Russ a sexy Imperial Guard Sergeant.

jmurph wrote:I find it disturbing that the Imperium only sees fit to deliver the sacred "gene seed" to other males. Eww.....

The homoeroticism in SM creation is enormous.

Most military fraternities are chock full of homoerotic traditions. Paddling, the Spartans wrestling naked, and so forth. It is only those that wish to see it as 'gay' that makes it weird for others.

Gwar! wrote:Really old fluff was also retconed out of existence.

Well, since the new fluff says nothing on the subject of SM's being castrated, then it's not a retcon, is it?

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Really old fluff was also retconed out of existence.

Well, since the new fluff says nothing on the subject of SM's being castrated, then it's not a retcon, is it?

CALLED IT!

Given that I believe the Night Lords use rape as part of there terror tactics, and of course the Emperor's Children and other Chaos units are quite capable of it, they probably still have the gear in working order. I suspect most marines are focused on other activies and probably get more pleasure from shooting off bolter rounds, and part of there indoctrination is to surpress such urges so they can't cause problems.

Jon Garrett wrote:Given that I believe the Night Lords use rape as part of there terror tactics, and of course the Emperor's Children and other Chaos units are quite capable of it, they probably still have the gear in working order. I suspect most marines are focused on other activies and probably get more pleasure from shooting off bolter rounds, and part of there indoctrination is to surpress such urges so they can't cause problems.

Source? I havn't heard that rape is specifically used, in I don't know, 3 editions. Rape is impractical in power armor. And disgusting and has no place 40K.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Suffer Not the Mutant to Live!

That's not the rule the Imperium works by.... It's "Suffer not the Mutant to live...unless they're on our side"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jmurph wrote:I find it disturbing that the Imperium only sees fit to deliver the sacred "gene seed" to other males. Eww.....

lol!

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:

Source? I havn't heard that rape is specifically used, in I don't know, 3 editions. Rape is impractical in power armor. And disgusting and has no place 40K.

Honestly? I have no idea, hence the 'I believe' part. It's been an awful long time since I read it.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Rape is impractical in power armor. And disgusting, and has no place 40K.

Sigh.



Index Astartes page 29:
"Fulgrim turned his legion loose on the uncontested areas of the planet, where billions of terrified humans cowered at the sight of the followers of chaos...the space marines themselves sought even greater excesses of carnage and carnality." (Emphasis mine)



car·nal'i·ty (kär-nāl'ĭ-tē) n.
car·nal (kär'nəl) adj.
car'nal·ly adv.

Engaging in sexual intercourse, the fulfilling sexual appetites: carnal desire.

[Middle English, from Old North French carnel, from Latin carnālis, from Latin carō, carn-, flesh; see sker-1 in Indo-European roots.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

I'm not sure that the activities of post-chaos Emperor's children can be considered normal in any sense of the word.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Rape is impractical in power armor. And disgusting, and has no place 40K.

Sigh.



Index Astartes page 29:
"Fulgrim turned his legion loose on the uncontested areas of the planet, where billions of terrified humans cowered at the sight of the followers of chaos...the space marines themselves sought even greater excesses of carnage and carnality." (Emphasis mine)



car·nal'i·ty (kär-nāl'ĭ-tē) n.
car·nal (kär'nəl) adj.
car'nal·ly adv.

Engaging in sexual intercourse, the fulfilling sexual appetites: carnal desire.

[Middle English, from Old North French carnel, from Latin carnālis, from Latin carō, carn-, flesh; see sker-1 in Indo-European roots.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Well, since the design team said that books and codexes are just lies and half truths, I choose to completly ignore the obvious and unarguable proof that you have used.

Notice I didn't sayit never happens, I said has no place in 40K, and impractical (power armor doesn't have zippers). It is one of the more heinous crimes that happen a little too often to reference in science fiction, even if it is grim dark.

MinMax wrote:There have been a lot of threads about this. Most of it has resulted in some extreme NERD RAGE. You can even check out Doc Thunder's Female Space Marine Conversion threads for what this might look like.

tigonesskay wrote:I'll work on in detail later of how it'll be done but I think COULD be possible...

It's science fiction. It's possible if you say it is.

Last time I read a thread about Doc Thunder's female marines (on a different site), the thread was closed due to excessive trolling/flaming.

Lord Chiasson wrote:IMO female marines would be kinda hot, give somthin for the male ones to look forward to hehe ,

Because giantism is just so sexy, right? The libido-quenching aspects of having female marines would be useless, as the Space Marines, IIRC, are asexual anyways. Even beyond this fact, fraternization within the ranks tends to lead to more problems than it solves, producing emotional attachments that can be distracting on the battlefield. The Adeptes Astartes are warrior monks, for crying out loud. If you want fluff to back all of this up, then go ahead and pick up a copy of Fulgrim. When the orgy broke out, the Emperor's Children didn't join in, or even wish to join in. Instead, they took arms and partook of what they found pleasure in, even before the corruption of their chapter, the wholesale slaughter of everybody in the room who wasn't them.

and its possible just make up fluff for it that the High Lords are working on a secret project and the female chapter are used to lure in Slanessh worshipers who cant resist then pow right in the kisser lol .

Again... giantism... do you have some strange fetish for women who are masculine at worst and completely androgynous at best? If you want to lure in Slaaneshi cultists, you do it with piles of drugs and the promise of the experience. Slaanesh isn't just about sex or pleasure, he/she/it is about the intensity of the experience, no matter what it is. Garish colors and makeup, nauseatingly opulent appointments, self mutilation, gladiatorial combat, orgies, and any given combination of all of the above at the same time.

Besides, let's face it, coming from the standpoint as a guy, if she's capable of spitting corrosive acid, would you really want to bother?

Actually every SM Commander (or we'll need a female Primarch?) initially will ask the question:

- Do I really need to train female recruits when I have more than enough males, that are more tough and resilient in general?

- They'll better be Sisters or better still mothers of our future recruits.

No male-chauvinism, just pure cost/time/efficiency case.

I'm going to say no, more because GW says no.

Though I agree, if they ever did exist, the armor would look the same.

Alternately, you could make a chapter who calls Venus home. While I'm new to 40k, and for all I know Venus is a hiveworld, or terraformed to who knows what... but looking at the myth of Venus (before modern science realized it was a volatile world)... it could use lots of greens... paint them as if they were from a jungle and use very lush basing.

Again, that's based off how the ancients saw Venus, and not how it is today.

No it's not possible to have a female Space Marine.
No you shouldn't do it. (If you consider yourself a serious 40k player).
No Marines probably can't mate or even get it up.

Yes, 99% of the people out there obsessed with female SM's are creepy weeboo 4channers.

No, you don't want to be one of them.

Yes, Marines (and in particular the whole initiate/Scout process with surgeries and stasis and so forth) are essentially a metaphor for the adolescent changing from a boy into a man, and Yes, that's why so many young (male) players play them, and Yes GW knows this.

EDIT: I hate to sound like a whiny humorless schmuck or a fluff nazi (and I fully realize I sound like both), but if you take the setting of 40k seriously then having female space marines is simply not possible. There's no Title IX in the Imperium, and a Space Marine is more than a well-trained warrior, he's a bionic and bio-chemical construct designed using a 15,000 year old process designed to manufacture warriors.

EDIT 2: I mean look, I know it's "just a game" but part of playing a game is accepting the universe in which the game takes place. When playing Oregon Trail it's not in-game-acceptable to decide to just fly from Independence Missouri to Oregon. Even though you could do that in the real world. Women can't be Space Marines, even if they should be able to do anything they want to do, in the real world. In fact, It is precisely because it is "just a game" rather than the real world that we can accept something as monstrous and terrible as the Imperium as the "good" guys, simply because compared to the alternative, they are the "good" ones, or at least the "better" ones, or at least the "ever-so-slightly-less-evil ones".

Doctor Optimal wrote:...if you take the setting of 40k seriously...

Perhaps that's the problem right there.

40K is a beer and pretzels game. You should never take it too seriously. Doing so would be like taking candyland seriously.

Sure, you can make a candyland tournament and increase the level of competition and even give out a big trophy, but it remains nothing more then a child's game. Nothing wrong with enjoying a kids game, but the minute it becomes so serious that you write up several paragraphs about how it's just not acceptable to use a monopoly car instead of the gingerbread man that comes in the box, because it breaks the candyland universe, it's really time to take a step back and chill out about a million percent.

Yes, 99% of the people out there obsessed with female SM's are creepy weeboo 4channers.

No, you don't want to be one of them.

Player 1 puts down a monopoly piece on the candyland board, and player 2 freaks out and starts name-calling.

Which one is obsessed?



And before you say "It's not the same thing"...

It's the same thing.





.

Doctor Thunder wrote:
Which one is obsessed?

It's you, you're the creepy and obsessed one.

Doctor Thunder wrote:
And before you say "It's not the same thing"...

It's the same thing.

Candy Land doesn't have a narrative, 40k does. If Candy Land had a narrative it would (or at least could) be the same thing. But it doesn't. So it isn't.

It is of course possible to make female Space Marine models. But there is no place in the 40k narrative where such a thing is possible.

Ultimately this is pointless. Nothing I say will convince you that FemMarines are both outside the 40k narrative. Nothing you say will change the fact that FemMarines don't belong in the narrative.

Doctor Optimal wrote:

It's you, you're the creepy and obsessed one.

You're name-calling over the way a stranger plays with toy soldiers thousands of miles away from you, and I'm the creepy and obsessed one?

Why would you even care? I mean, I don't care about how you play with your toys, why would you care about how I play with mine?

Candy Land doesn't have a narrative, 40k does. If Candy Land had a narrative it would be a comparison

Sure it does. As you play the game, you follow the narrative of a bunch of kids saving King Candy and Princess Lolly from Lord Licorice. It's all on the inside of the box, and it's just as in-depth and well-thought-out as most 40K fluff.

Doctor Thunder wrote:
Sure it does, the story and narrative are on the inside of the box. As you play the game, you follow the narrative of a bunch of kids saving King Candy and Princess Loli from Lord Licorice, and it's just as in-depth and well-thought-out as most 40K fluff.

Doctor Thunder talking about Loli. What a shock.

Like I said, you can do as you please. And I know you will. It's your property and you're entitled. But FemMarines aren't part of the 40k narrative. If you don't care about the narrative, my saying this shouldn't bother you. And this is the 40k background forum, where we talk about the 40k narrative, the one you say doesn't exist. I don't go into FemMarine P&M threads to criticize because those are about the models. This thread is about the narrative possibility of FemMarines. And there isn't any.

Doctor Optimal wrote:
Doctor Thunder talking about Loli. What a shock.

Why all the venom, Optimal? I've never even met you, so why all the hate?



I'm curious as to what you objective is.


Are you looking for an apology for the way I play with my toys?

Are you trying to convince me to come over to your way of thinking?

Or do you just enjoy hurting others?

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Doctor Optimal wrote:
Doctor Thunder talking about Loli. What a shock.

Why all the venom, Optimal? I've never even met you, so why all the hate?



I'm curious as to what you objective is.


Are you looking for an apology for the way I play with my toys?

Are you trying to convince me to come over to your way of thinking?

Or do you just enjoy hurting others?

I'm wondering why you're in a background thread, where there is no background to be had, talking about how background doesn't matter in what is just a beer and pretzels game.

This will never resolve itself. You think the background is secondary to the toys, I think the toys are secondary to the background. We have mutually irreconcilable positions.

And that's ok.

If you think the background doesn't matter, knock yourself out. Make whatever toys you want. I really have no problem with you doing whatever it is you want to do. I just don't understand what you are looking to prove here in a background thread, when FemMarines don't HAVE any background.

Doctor Optimal wrote: We have mutually irreconcilable positions.

I understand that we have irreconcilable positions, what I don't understand is your reaction to it. Do you think that name-calling, and slander, and hatred, are appropriate reactions when encountering someone who is different to yourself, or who thinks differently then you do?

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Doctor Optimal wrote: We have mutually irreconcilable positions.

I understand that we have irreconcilable positions, what I don't understand is your reaction to it. Do you think that name-calling, and slander, and hatred, are appropriate reactions when encountering someone who is different to yourself, or who thinks differently then you do?

Burn the heretic.

Doctor Thunder wrote:Do you think that name-calling, and slander, and hatred, are appropriate reactions when encountering someone who is different to yourself, or who thinks differently then you do?

Neo-nazis and serial killers think differently from me. The specifics of the differences are what matter.

Neo-nazis and serial killers think differently from me. The specifics of the differences are what matter.

And you think that the game pieces we use in an imaginary children's game are that important? Important enough to validate treating other human beings with scorn?

I think not.

People are more important then plastic toys. Courtesy is more important then make-believe. Respect is more important then candyland.

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Burn the heretic.

Well, I tried reasoning with you. Even though you called me a creep and intonated that I am a pedophile, I bear you no ill will. I allow you to play with your toys without calling you names. I only hope that some day you will grant me the same respect and courtesy.

Doctor Thunder wrote:
And you think that the game pieces we use in an imaginary children's game are that important? Important enough to validate treating other human beings with scorn?

I think not.

I was just disagreeing with your rationale, not the specifics of your claim.

They say that space marines must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types. Well females produce the same hormones as males do and either sex can take hormones to become the other, and on top of that if a baby is exposed to excess hormones from the mother before it's born it can suffer from Hermorphaditeism. So a space marine zygotes must be keyed to the Y chromosone which makes a male a male and not a female.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Doctor Optimal wrote:...if you take the setting of 40k seriously...

Perhaps that's the problem right there.

40K is a beer and pretzels game. You should never take it too seriously. Doing so would be like taking candyland seriously.

Sure, you can make a candyland tournament and increase the level of competition and even give out a big trophy, but it remains nothing more then a child's game. Nothing wrong with enjoying a kids game, but the minute it becomes so serious that you write up several paragraphs about how it's just not acceptable to use a monopoly car instead of the gingerbread man that comes in the box, because it breaks the candyland universe, it's really time to take a step back and chill out about a million percent.

Yes, 99% of the people out there obsessed with female SM's are creepy weeboo 4channers.

No, you don't want to be one of them.

Player 1 puts down a monopoly piece on the candyland board, and player 2 freaks out and starts name-calling.

Which one is obsessed?



And before you say "It's not the same thing"...

It's the same thing.





.

Its beer and pretzels to you. To others it is a narrative universe like Lord of the Rings and Star Wars.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:

Its beer and pretzels to you.

I'm not the only one who calls it a beer and pretzels game. The design team calls it that in WD all the time. You can find the references yourself.

If you want to go against the design team, you are welcome to.

To others it is a narrative universe like Lord of the Rings and Star Wars.

The problem with comparing 40K to things like LOTR and Star Wars is that those things are designed to have some depth and be complete universes, while 40K is merely a setting comprised of a bunch of stolen IP duct-taped together.

I love 40K, I just don't pretend it is what it isn't.

Doctor Thunder wrote:The problem with comparing 40K to things like LOTR and Star Wars is that those things are designed to have some depth and be complete universes, while 40K is merely a setting comprised of a bunch of stolen IP duct-taped together.

Listen, you can't whine about people not respecting you and then say something like this in a 40k Background thread. The reason that this space exists is because for many people it's more than "stolen IP duct-taped together." Respect is a two-way street here and everywhere else.

They don't exist in 40K.

I wouldn't play someone who made an army out of something that beyond a shadow of a doubt doesn't exist, be it a fem-marine army, friendly dark eldar, or whatever else it might be.

Though female groups in IG would be different IMO.

If someone's motivation is boobs in space armor, they should play SoB.

I understand that there are no Fem-Sm in 40k, I just don't understand why it isn't possible?

Anyway, even if it doesn't QUITE make sense it wouldn't stop me having a game with one. Although I don't really know why someone wouldn't be satisfied with SoB or Fem IG. (Forget about not hitting girls, these chicks would knock your block off.)

The augmentations to make someone a SM don't work on females, for whatever reason that might be.

I think the better question is why are people looking for a workaround to the rules? Plenty of armies field women. Heck, Eldar even have a female-only aspect; Howling Banshees.

and that whatever reason is?

Does it even state in the Sm Codex that the SM is a male only club? I know it shows no indication of females, but does it actually say that there aren't?

EasyE wrote:friendly dark eldar

Best analogy yet. If you're the type to make a friendly DE army, then go ahead and have them fight your boobie mehreins.

Doctor Thunder wrote:The problem with comparing 40K to things like LOTR and Star Wars is that those things are designed to have some depth and be complete universes, while 40K is merely a setting comprised of a bunch of stolen IP duct-taped together.

LOL.

Yeah, Doctor Thunder, Star Wars is a better "complete universe" than 40k. It's not like they didn't just add lasers to westerns and samurai movies.

Seriously though, they put some sort of CGI Jabba in the first one, that gak pissed me off. He lost like two hundred pounds for that scene too.


(Also, I think the twenty or so serious novels published about the 40k universe by Games Workshop disagree with your claim that no one takes it seriously.)

Many, many Mod Alerts on this thread...

So close to closing...

Debate the background, the possibility, etc.

STOP the personal attacks.

Time for my favorite picture!

To others it is a narrative universe like Lord of the Rings and Star Wars.

Unfortunately, the design team completely disagrees with you.

Quote from the design team, US White Dwarf 302:

The Background exists as a context for the games that people play. Despite the occasional event, the background was never intended as an ongoing narrative.

Like I said, I love 40K for what it is, I don't pretend that it is something that it is not.

Manchu wrote:
Listen, you can't whine about people not respecting you and then say something like this in a 40k Background thread. The reason that this space exists is because for many people it's more than "stolen IP duct-taped together." Respect is a two-way street here and everywhere else.

Sure I can, because I'm calling the background shallow and infantile, I'm not calling you shallow and infantile. See the difference?

For instance, if Doctor Optimal had attacked my arguments earlier, he would have been fine, what got him in trouble with the mods for trolling, is that he attacked the person instead of their arguments.

Fluff is not a person, it can be criticized.

Also, I think the twenty or so serious novels published about the 40k universe...

Which one should we talk about? The one where a Tau gets possessed by a demon? Or the one where Ultramarines ignore the codex? Or the one where the Iron Warriors aren't paranoid at all?

If a player wrote anything like that and posted it online, he would get burned in effigy for making something so "unfluffy" and "unofficial" that "doesn't exist"

That's a huge double-standard that I just can't wrap my head around.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Also, I think the twenty or so serious novels published about the 40k universe...

Which one should we talk about? The one where a Tau gets possessed by a demon? Or the one where Ultramarines ignore the codex? Or the one where the Iron Warriors aren't paranoid at all?

If a player wrote anything like that and posted it online, he would get burned in effigy for making something so "unfluffy" and "unofficial" that "doesn't exist"

That's a huge double-standard that I just can't wrap my head around.

Nice evasive maneuvre.

Isn't it a difference if GW provided a story ?

An obsessed Tau isn't impossible. Tau are already obsessed with their "greater good". They may not have the same presence in the warp like humans, doesn't make them immune.
Ultramarines may ignore the codex. Would be a universe without renegades if every marine kept his path.
Why should all IW be paranoid? A halfbreed like Honsou could behave different.

See. All of your 3 examples fit with the background.

Still the primary question stands unanswered: Why should the imperium/the Emperor create them?

1hadhq wrote:
Still the primary question stands unanswered: Why should the imperium/the Emperor create them?

Why ask me? My female marines are chaos.

See. All of your 3 examples fit with the background.

Sure, they can be justified, but so can female marines. So why accept one justification but reject the other?

GW can justify wonky things but players cannot?

Double standard.

Isn't it a difference if GW provided a story ?

Nope, because that is a self-defeating argument. I'll illustrate:

Player 1: That background you wrote needs to be changed.

Player 2: Why?

Player 1: Because it is different from what GW wrote.

Player 2: Why does that matter?

Player 1: You are supposed to follow what GW writes, they are the authority.

Player 2: But the authority tells me I should do whatever I want.



If you call upon the authority of GW as the reason why a player should not write something, then you are in opposition to that very authority. You are being contradicted by GW itself.

Essentially, by trying to force others to be fluffy, you are being unfluffy.

Doctor Thunder wrote:Sure I can, because I'm calling the background shallow and infantile, I'm not calling you shallow and infantile. See the difference?

Would you walk into a GW store and give the staff and any customers present a sermon on how "shallow and infantile" the fluff is? Maybe you would, I don't know you at all. It seems pretty rude, though. "Hey guys, all the stuff that you enjoy talking about--it's complete garbage and you're wasting your time." The fact that you have to point out the difference between insulting a person and insulting his or her interests makes it clear how weak that distinction actually is.

1hadhq wrote:Still the primary question stands unanswered: Why should the imperium/the Emperor create them?

There doesn't seem to be an official reason. But to hazard a guess . . .

SM are not supposed to be self-replicating. They are not a race apart from humanity but, by the time they get the geneseed, they aren't quite human, either. Setting aside any rumor/info that female biology rejects the zygotes, can you imagine the possibility of SM breeding amongst themselves. Several millennia of evolution might see them diverge completely from their human origin. Keeping an all-male force drawn directly from normal human populations keeps the SM directly connected to humanity.

Or at least that's one possible explanation.

Also, from what's known, there were no female Primarchs.

Manchu wrote:The fact that you have to point out the difference between insulting a person and insulting his or her interests makes it clear how weak that distinction actually is.

If you don't like it, your beef is with the forum and it's rules, not me. If you want a happy place where no one ever points out how poor 40k fiction is, start a blog.

Me, I like cheap things. I like airline food, those cheap walmart cookies, and the 40K background. I just don't pretend like they are something that they are not.

Would you walk into a GW store and give the staff and any customers present a sermon on how "shallow and infantile" the fluff is?

Would you walk up to someone playing a game of 40K with their female marines and say something like this:

If you're the type to make a friendly DE army, then go ahead and have them fight your boobie mehreins.

So, you can insult my interests (female marines) But I can't point out the flaws in your interests (40K background) ??

That is a one-way street.


How about we just follow the forum rules instead? Arguments and interests are free game, but the person is not.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Would you walk up to someone playing a game of 40K with their female marines and say something like this:

If you're the type to make a friendly DE army, then go ahead and have them fight your boobie mehreins.

Sounds like a one-way street to me.

Sound like another weak, equivocal jab to me.

The point of that statement--which you conveniently forgot to quote--is that female SM are analogous to friendly DE. You are controverting the established theme and tone of an army to the point that you are playing in a separate universe. So if there are, in someone's imagination, a such thing as female SM they most likely exist in the same world as friendly DE.

Doctor Thunder wrote:How about we just follow the forum rules instead? Arguments and interests are free game, but the person is not.

I have no problem with forum rules.

Manchu wrote:
Sound like another weak, equivocal jab to me.

Hardly. You want your interests to be free from criticism, while criticizing mine.

It doesn't work that way.

Not really. And this is the last time I'm going to try and explain it to you. I agree with DocOptimal if not his way of addressing you: IMO, 40k is fairly coherent as is. Something like female SM doesn't fit. It's the same with friendly DE. I never said female SM are shallow and infantile. There, I wash my hands of it.

To get back on track, I'm quoting the last OT post which happens to have been me:

Manchu wrote:There doesn't seem to be an official reason. But to hazard a guess . . .

SM are not supposed to be self-replicating. They are not a race apart from humanity but, by the time they get the geneseed, they aren't quite human, either. Setting aside any rumor/info that female biology rejects the zygotes, can you imagine the possibility of SM breeding amongst themselves. Several millennia of evolution might see them diverge completely from their human origin. Keeping an all-male force drawn directly from normal human populations keeps the SM directly connected to humanity.

Or at least that's one possible explanation.

Also, from what's known, there were no female Primarchs.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Still the primary question stands unanswered: Why should the imperium/the Emperor create them?

Why ask me? My female marines are chaos.

Why not ask?



Chaos or not doesn't matter. All primarchs/space marines are creations of the Emperor.

Refusing to provide a reason only invalidates the possibility of FemSm.
Either care to reply including the provided background to have a common base for all participants to discuss, or just don't post.

Back to the Question N° 1: Reason to create FemSm ( and traitors are still former imperial SM )

Either care to reply including the provided background to have a common base for all participants to discuss, or just don't post.

Are you a Moderator?

All primarchs/space marines are creations of the Emperor.

Mine aren't. Fabius Bile made them.

Manchu wrote:Something like female SM doesn't fit.

Games Workshop staff disagree with you.

Here's a quote from when one of them talked about the subject on the B+C forums:

As far as i've heard or read, it has yet to be tried. That DOESN'T mean that it cannot be done. "Could" is a LOT different than "can" or "can't". So go ahead and make some female Space Marines! Make your own fluff! DO WHAT YOU LIKE. That's what the hobby is all about. It IS a fictional universe after all.

And if anyone wants to convert an all-female Space Marine army, PLEASE send me good photos. i think they'd be cool!

Now, why should I listen to you instead of a Games Workshop staff member?

1hadhq wrote:Back to the Question N° 1: Reason to create FemSm

There really doesn't seem to be any good (fluffy) reason for creating them.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Either care to reply including the provided background to have a common base for all participants to discuss, or just don't post.

Are you a Moderator?

Youre not answering if i am not a MOD?

Such fine discussion tactic deserves:

My point was, in case you missed the subtext, to kindly refrain from telling me which parts of the discussion I must participate in. This is a wide topic with many facets, not all of which interest me. I will reply to the parts I wish to, and I will not reply to the parts I don't wish to.

After all, you only responded to about a tenth of my last post directed at you, so why yet another double standard?

Space Marines were created after the Primarchs disappeared. The Emperor used the genetic records of the Primarchs to accomplish this. Perhaps one or both of the two unknown Primarchs were female? Or, to work off of Dr Thunder's earlier suggestion that Chaos be involved, perhaps a group of SM were changed into ladies by Slaanesh. Has the potential to be a hilarious webstrip.

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Back to the Question N° 1: Reason to create FemSm

There really doesn't seem to be any good (fluffy) reason for creating them.

Exactly.

The emperor was ok with his work, so why should we criticise him?



Can't see the need for change in space marine recrutement. Without any additional benefits, no-one would expend valuable resources
(females) in a ressource-hungry crusade.

Doctor Thunder wrote:My point was, in case you missed the subtext, to kindly refrain from telling me which parts of the discussion I must participate in. This is a wide topic with many facets, not all of which interest me. I will reply to the parts I wish to, and I will not reply to the parts I don't wish to.

After all, you only responded to about a tenth of my last post directed at you, so why yet another double standard?

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Either care to reply including the provided background to have a common base for all participants to discuss, or just don't post.

Are you a Moderator?

All primarchs/space marines are creations of the Emperor.

Mine aren't. Fabius Bile made them.

Manchu wrote:Something like female SM doesn't fit.

Games Workshop staff disagree with you.

Here's a quote from when one of them talked about the subject on the B+C forums:

As far as i've heard or read, it has yet to be tried. That DOESN'T mean that it cannot be done. "Could" is a LOT different than "can" or "can't". So go ahead and make some female Space Marines! Make your own fluff! DO WHAT YOU LIKE. That's what the hobby is all about. It IS a fictional universe after all.

And if anyone wants to convert an all-female Space Marine army, PLEASE send me good photos. i think they'd be cool!

Now, why should I listen to you instead of a Games Workshop staff member?

Then why when asked questions the Games Workshop staff says things like Squats don't exist, and make comments about the outcome of the 13th Black Crusade? What about all those articles cataloguing the results of Medusa V, Armageddon, and EoT? Why dot hey mention things like Horus turning, if there is no background? Get your head around the fact GW doesn't take an official stance, because so doing would alienate players. You can quote those articles all your want, it doesn’t change the fact they are nothing more than a tool to get you to buy more models, just like standard bearer. You keep calling GW background cheap and beer and pretzels, but just because you think it is beer and pretzels doesn’t make it so. Just because an articles references taking it lightly doesn’t make it so, this is a universe with clear set guidelines, you just choose to trivialize all the evidence we provide with that ‘cat’ quote and dismiss our opinions as narrow-minded and wrong. So don’t get upset when we choose to trivialize your opinions and how cheap you consider this game.

Also, don't get mad at a member for trying to keep a thread OT and non-violent. You arn't a MOD either.

1hadhq wrote:The emperor was ok with his work, so why should we criticise him?

Lol, I wouldn't dream of it! That's what we had Horus for. Can you imagine: "I'm so sick of dad! He's self-righteous and arrogant. I should be the one to rule the galaxy. He didn't even make any girl marines! Seriously, how am I ever going to meet someone?" And thus the Heresy was born.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
You can quote those articles all your want, it doesn’t change the fact they are nothing more than a tool to get you to buy more models

You can ignore GW if you want, of course. A lot of people don't think that referees should be listened to either. The burden on you, of course is this: Why should I listen to you instead of Games Workshop?

You keep calling GW background cheap and beer and pretzels, but just because you think it is beer and pretzels doesn’t make it so.

You're right. It is not a beer and pretzels game just because I think it is. What makes it a beer and pretzels game is because Games Workshop says it is a beer and pretzels game. I just happen to agree with them. You are welcome to pretend that it isn't, but I won't.

this is a universe with clear set guidelines

GW disagrees with you.

You just choose to trivialize all the evidence we provide with that ‘cat’ quote and dismiss our opinions as narrow-minded and wrong.

Actually, if you re-read the thread, I've gone out of my way to state that you are under no obligation to agree with me or GW. You are allowed to ignore GW and pretend the game has canon. If that is fun for you have at it. You have every right to your opinion, but when you and GW disagree, I'm going to go with GW every time.

In my opinion, referancing text is far better than anything from the mouths or keyboards of your local GW employees. I once had a blackshirt in the West Edmonton GW try to sell me a space wolves battle force to get my Black Templars army going quickly. I pointed out that there was a "Space Marine Battleforce" right next to it. (This was before the BT Boxed set)

He said that's meant only for Ultramarines players. I told him he was meant to work at a McDonalds. He stopped trying to give me 'pointers' after that.

Basically what I'm saying is that you're better off following the texts written by the GW Masterminds over on the Queen's rock than taking the word (or internet post) of any local GW Employee. Most of them know the gameplay, but not the fluff. If you find an official text from the GW Highlords that says Female Marines are possible, then it's so. If, however, you only find official texts saying that the traditional method of creating a Space Marine have ill-effects on Female candidates (As has been recorded by the Fluffmasters themselves), then so it is by GW.

Of course, nothing says that these Female Marines couldn't have been made in an alternative fashion. To the best of my knowledge though, the Fluffmasters in Jolly Ole' England have said that Female Marines are not possible by the conventional procedure. Something about the Geneseed revoking their genetic makeup on account of the XX Chromosome, the extra Organs also not functioning due to reasons of genetics, etc...

metallifan wrote:I pointed out that there was a "Space Marine Battleforce" right next to it. He said that's meant only for Ultramarines players. I told him he was meant to work at a McDonalds. He stopped trying to give me 'pointers' after that.

Well played, sir.

metallifan wrote:Of course, nothing says that these Female Marines couldn't have been made in an alternative fashion. To the best of my knowledge though, the Fluffmasters in Jolly Ole' England have said that Female Marines are not possible by the conventional procedure. Something about the Geneseed revoking their genetic makeup on account of the XX Chromosome, the extra Organs also not functioning due to reasons of genetics, etc...

Like I said, Slaanesh could have mutated some SM into ladies . . . for reasons best left to your imagination.

@Dr Thunder: Why not give us more detail on your Fabius Bile back story? Do your femarines have original geneseed? Or did Bile create all new stuff for them?

Finally, we know there are already female SM: Dark Angels.

The individual opinions of GW employees do not supersede the written text they have published that make up the game world.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
You can quote those articles all your want, it doesn’t change the fact they are nothing more than a tool to get you to buy more models

You can ignore GW if you want, of course. A lot of people don't think that referees should be listened to either. The burden on you, of course is this: Why should I listen to you instead of Games Workshop?

You keep calling GW background cheap and beer and pretzels, but just because you think it is beer and pretzels doesn’t make it so.

You're right. It is not a beer and pretzels game just because I think it is. What makes it a beer and pretzels game is because Games Workshop says it is a beer and pretzels game. I just happen to agree with them. You are welcome to pretend that it isn't, but I won't.

this is a universe with clear set guidelines

GW disagrees with you.

You just choose to trivialize all the evidence we provide with that ‘cat’ quote and dismiss our opinions as narrow-minded and wrong.

Actually, if you re-read the thread, I've gone out of my way to state that you are under no obligation to agree with me or GW. You are allowed to ignore GW and pretend the game has canon. If that is fun for you have at it. You have every right to your opinion, but when you and GW disagree, I'm going to go with GW every time.

Who are you to tell me that I am wrong for taking GW's standpoint, and then do the same thing. The point is, what anybody at GW says to you about femarines is pandering to you to sell you models, then they turn around and talk to me about the repercussions of the 13h Black Crusade on deployments on the Eastern Fringe, to sell me more books, in the end they make money. Am I the only one who realizes this? So what happens then is that GW PEOPLE will say anything to sell models, GW BOOKS contain the backstory, the GW PEOPLE will say whatever you want them to say even if they write the books because you will buy more models. I seriously doubt Jervis is sitting in his office sculpting boobs on his marines and Phil Kelly is building a loyalist Word Bearer strike force to fight alongside Rick Priestley's Dark Angels with Guilliman geneseed. You are not 'with-it' in any way shape or form, why don't you just concede the point? You evidence is nothing more than some guys patting you on the back for your conversions or an editorial designed to make people buy more than one box for a single troop choice.

metallifan wrote:In my opinion, referancing text is far better than anything from the mouths or keyboards of your local GW employees.

I've been quoting the higher ups, not redshirts, but still, you raise some good points about the old fluff banning conventional methods but not alternative methods.

@Dr Thunder: Why not give us more detail on your Fabius Bile back story? Do your femarines have original geneseed? Or did Bile create all new stuff for them?

Sorry, I might be mistaking your intentions, but this board is incredibly hostile, so I'd rather not give you guys any more opportunity to roast me then you already have.

Do your femarines have original geneseed?

Hopefully not, as the GW Fluffmasters have said this is not possible without the recipients dying or at best becoming horribly mutated from implantation. Though it's not hard to just dart your eyes and say "Uh... no... I always... Uh... said their geneseed was of a new genetic makeup! Yea!"

Sorry, I might be mistaking your intentions, but this board is incredibly hostile, so I'd rather not give you guys any more opportunity to roast me then you already have.

I don't see the board being hostile. A few members maybe, but you can't account for a whole board over the actions of a few. And even then those members I'm sure felt the same way. Some of us are actually interested in the background to your story though, and if it conflicts GW's fluff, are glad to help you tweak it.

Doctor Thunder wrote:Sorry, I might be mistaking your intentions, but this board is incredibly hostile, so I'd rather not give you guys any more opportunity to roast me then you already have.

I just want to get things back on track. There's too much baiting going on here and hardly any discussion of the actual topic.

So to summarize:

40k is a fictional universe
there is established background
that background has some holes
some of those holes are intentional
the reason for the holes is so you can make up your own stories

If you are made fun of because you make up your own stories, that would be unfair. But to be honest I think the hostility is coming out of everyone's matter-of-fact tone about a topic that has no true controversy at its heart. The simple fact is that there are no femarines outside of an individual's back stories. So let's skip the rest of that endless, thread-killing conversation.

Creating femarines does sound like something Fabius might try. Either he would have corrupted existing geneseed or attempted to genetically modify cloned material to be suitable to female biology. The results are probably unstable. Could be its own discrete type of Chaos unit, a la Noise Marines.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:You are not 'with-it' in any way shape or form, why don't you just concede the point?

You're asking me to take your opinion over that of Games Workshop's. Why should I do that?

You evidence is nothing more than some guys patting you on the back for your conversions or an editorial designed to make people buy more than one box for a single troop choice.

Marshal, you and I have talked about female space marines on many threads. I've quoted you articles from white dwarf, comments from the design team from the GW website and forums, and official statements from GW publishers.

Given our history, I find it very disingenuous of you to try and make it sound like I have not provided you any evidence.

If you do not consider GW to have any authority when it comes to the fiction they write, that is fine, but I do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Creating femarines does sound like something Fabius might try. Either he would have corrupted existing geneseed or attempted to genetically modify cloned material to be suitable to female biology. The results are probably unstable. Could be its own discrete type of Chaos unit, a la Noise Marines.

Okay, I'll take a chance on you guys, then.


The idea is that Fabius Bile wanted to make a chaos version of a genestealer. Something that could be seeded onto a target world, and interbreed with the local population for generations, then be unleashed when the world was attacked.

The black widows don't use geneseed. They were created by a fusion of technology and sorcery. The extra organs are present from birth, and lay dormant in them until activated by chemical and demonic treatment. Until then, they are externally indistinguishable from regular humans. The black widows themselves have no knowledge of their identity until the world they live on comes under attack, at which point their demonic nature is activated and they attack local authorities by the thousands, scavenging and stealing whatever gear they can find. Eventually they link up with the invading chaos forces, providing a large pool of reinforcements. When a chaos space marine falls, a black widow can be treated and prepped to don the suit of armor.

Bile's plan is to seed hundreds of thousands of worlds, and allow their descendants to grow in numbers with each generation, until they outnumber the untainted populations, overthrowing whole systems with barely a shot fired.

Doctor Thunder wrote:
The idea is that Fabius Bile wanted to make a chaos version of a genestealer. Something that could be seeded onto a target world, and interbreed with the local population for generations, then be unleashed when the world was attacked.

The black widows don't use geneseed. They were created by a fusion of technology and sorcery. The extra organs are present from birth, and lay dormant in them until activated by chemical and demonic treatment. The black widows themselves have no knowledge of their identity until the world they live on comes under attack, at which point their demonic nature is activated and they attack local authorities by the thousands, scavenging and stealing whatever gear they can find. Eventually they link up with the chaos forces, providing a large pool of reinforcements. When a chaos space marine falls, a black widow can be chemically treated and prepped to don the suit of armor.

Bile's plan is to seed hundreds of worlds, and allow their descendants to grow in numbers with each generation, until they outnumber the untainted populations, overthrowing whole systems with barely a shot fired.

Sound pretty cool actually. What exactly makes them femarines? They have the same zygotes?

Also, these chicks aren't "fallen" in any conceivable sense given that they have no choice in what they are. Doesn't seem very Chaos-y in that respect. Maybe there could be some kind of daemonhost spin on the genetic engineering?

Manchu wrote:

Sound pretty cool actually. What exactly makes them femarines? They have the same zygotes?

They end up having the same extra organs and modifications as a male marine, they just use a different route to get there. I imagine they have less physical strength but greater speed then their male counterparts.

Also, these chicks aren't "fallen" in any conceivable sense given that they have no choice in what they are. Doesn't seem very Chaos-y in that respect. Maybe there could be some kind of daemonhost spin on the genetic engineering?

I wanted to go for a damned from birth angle (particularly excruciating since they remember their old lives), but it might be fun to have the "seed" widows on a given world to be kidnapped and experimented on.

Doctor Thunder wrote:I kinda like the damned from birth angle (particularly excruciating since they remember their old lives), but it might be fun to have the "seed" widows on a given world to be kidnapped and experimented on.

That does sound pretty excruciating. Just to be clear, are you using them as "counts as" SM or CSM?

Also, these chicks aren't "fallen" in any conceivable sense given that they have no choice in what they are. Doesn't seem very Chaos-y in that respect. Maybe there could be some kind of daemonhost spin on the genetic engineering?

How is it NOT Chaosy? It's twisting their DNA without giving them any option or chance to oppose it, and in such a way that they can't fight back without committing suicide. You ask me, that's pretty damn messed up in a twisted, evil Fabious Bile sort of way

It's certainly believeable at any rate, that Chao energy and a Daemonic Presence could take the place of the Geneseed. This is one of those "Plausible" cases, where yea, it would work. So they're only the same size as an average human until the energies are unleased, and then they hulk out? Certainly sounds painful. And perfectly Chaosy to me.

Manchu wrote:Just to be clear, are you using them as "counts as" SM or CSM?

Yup. If I were to write house rules for them, I'd make them S3 T4 I5, but most people in my area hate house rules, so I usually use the space marine codex with Inquisitional allies (since not all of the widows wear power armor, only those that have managed to acquire a suit)


Here's a pic of some (pre modification) using stolen gear:


And here's a pic of one that has been modified so she can wear a suit of power armor. (The curved chest plate is decorative, she doesn't actually need the room) She uses the rules for vulkan he-stan.

I like the idea of what is basically an SM army that has a powersuit shortage. Are those WE heads?

metallifan wrote:How is it NOT Chaosy? It's twisting their DNA without giving them any option or chance to oppose it, and in such a way that they can't fight back without committing suicide. You ask me, that's pretty damn messed up in a twisted, evil Fabious Bile sort of way

It's f'd up, no doubt. But the hallmark of Chaos is becoming corrupted not starting corrupted.

Manchu wrote:Are those WE heads?

Yup. Some widows fight in vain against their demonic nature, struggling against the overwhelming urge to kill their former family and people. As punishment, they are imprisoned in a dreadnaught body, stripped of their will, they are forced to witness slaughter for all eternity.

Most impressive. I can't decide if I like the paint or the conversion better.

Awesome idea. I don't regard the Black Widows as astartes though, but I really nice original idea. Do the widows only have daughters? Nice models too.

Nice pics!

Does it count as a dreadnought? Or perhaps a defiler?

Manchu wrote: Also, these chicks aren't "fallen" in any conceivable sense given that they have no choice in what they are. Doesn't seem very Chaos-y in that respect. Maybe there could be some kind of daemonhost spin on the genetic engineering?

It's not needed, they're chaos because Bile made them that way and he's chaos, otherwise plague zombies are not chaos because they're not fallen, just victims of an infection. You don't have to be possessed to serve chaos. It sounds like Bile has created a new biological weapon using his knowledge of genetics and because these widows are biological timebombs, there is no warp taint to alert the inquisition. I'd think that there could be some problems if they had to undergo a genetic screening of some kind but no doubt there's a way around that too.

Does it count as a dreadnought?

Yup. If I were to make house rules for it, I would give it Armor 11, scout, and fleet.

cadbren wrote:Do the widows only have daughters?

Yes, which means that a planet infected with them will experience a population shift after a few generations that will be come more pronounced with each successive generation. If a particularly watchful member of the inquisition can detect the infestation soon enough, it can be ended by purging the female half of the population.

This is a second element to Bile's strategy. Even if not a single infestation grows to maturity, the repercussions of forcing the imperium to raze the female population on thousands of planets can become devastating to the war effort in a sector.

An infestation that does grow to maturity will be swift and sudden, as many of the widow's descendants will find themselves in positions of authority, and the small remaining natural population will be quickly overwhelmed by their former kin, leaving a planet with it's industry and military fully intact and now completely loyal to chaos.

So they're only the same size as an average human until the energies are unleased, and then they hulk out?

Yup. I imagine they kinda look like she-hulk, but without the green. An 8 foot tall amazon with the soul of a demon and a residue of humanity that torments her like shards of glass in her mind.


Occasionally a widow will fell a space marine terminator and claim the suit of armor as her own.

Methinks ye be needin' some Daemons that've manifested as giant Black Widow spiders to complete the Chaosness and overall theme (How cool would it be to model a giant spider impaling some poor PDF bugger with it's fangs?). Otherwise, beauty of a job, and quite frankly I'm suprised you don't have these up in a Gallery yet.

metallifan wrote:Methinks ye be needin' some Daemons that've manifested as giant Black Widow spiders to complete the Chaosness and overall theme (How cool would it be to model a giant spider impaling some poor PDF bugger with it's fangs?).

That's a great idea. Consider it done.

cadbren wrote:

Manchu wrote: Also, these chicks aren't "fallen" in any conceivable sense given that they have no choice in what they are. Doesn't seem very Chaos-y in that respect. Maybe there could be some kind of daemonhost spin on the genetic engineering?

It's not needed, they're chaos because Bile made them that way and he's chaos, otherwise plague zombies are not chaos because they're not fallen, just victims of an infection. You don't have to be possessed to serve chaos.

A faulty argument: Plague Zombies are reanimated corpses. A corpse is merely a body, a thing. It has no will and so cannot be turned. Similarly, the bolters, armor, and vehicles that CSM use are indeed Chaos but, as objects, that identification does not depend on their having turned from humanity. The CSM themselves, however, are all fallen. A better example for your argument would have been demons. But even that is quite weak. Demons have no will, either. Volition, certainly, but the power of choice--to renounce their obedience to Chaos--is denied them.

Against the otherwise arresting backstory of the Black Widows, this is a minor problem. I imagine that many of the Widows do not live to see their latent powers manifest. Moreover, once they do there is likely a struggle. The genius of Bile (or maybe Dr Thunder) is most evident here: the struggle takes place in a mind that is not prepared. The host has always thought of herself as a normal person, fully dependent on the protection of the Empire and Ecclesiarchy. How can she resist? Trouble only arises when her mind and faith have been prepared somehow.

It would be very interesting to trace out the story of a latent Widow adopted into the Schola Progenium and eventually inducted into the Adpeta Sororitas.

Manchu wrote:

It would be very interesting to trace out the story of a latent Widow adopted into the Schola Progenium and eventually inducted into the Adpeta Sororitas.

That could make a really neat short story. I'd have to double check on the screening methods used by the ecclesiarchy. Since they abhor witchcraft in all it's forms, it's possible they do not employ psykers to check for spiritual purity, which would allow a sleeper widow to slip through.

Her training and faith would give her resistance a normal person would not have. It would be a fun story to explore. Can you have faith in a god who hates you? Can The Emperor redeem a creature without a soul? Would she have the strength to take her own life before the beast completely overwlelmed her?

Female marines make no sense since marine where made in the emperors image whitch is inarguable male, and the geneseed is made for male organ no female, and why would they be better shots there is no diference in acuracy marines are train to the highest standerd in acurasy the most acurat marine has bs5 telion, are telling me all woman have that acuracy bred into the i say not ( not to be sexist) but in the accuracy stand point male and female are the same. Finaly women tend not to have the blood lust men have marines have to be able to kill without a second though or any hesitation and not dwell long on it so they can kill the next dude, also it says in the fluff they just pic men.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Manchu wrote:

It would be very interesting to trace out the story of a latent Widow adopted into the Schola Progenium and eventually inducted into the Adpeta Sororitas.

That could make a really neat short story. I'd have to double check on the screening methods used by the ecclesiarchy. Since they abhor witchcraft in all it's forms, it's possible they do not employ psykers to check for spiritual purity, which would allow a sleeper widow to slip through.

Her training and faith would give her resistance a normal person would not have. It would be a fun story to explore. Can you have faith in a god who hates you? Can The Emperor redeem a creature without a soul? Would she have the strength to take her own life before the beast completely overwlelmed her?

Hmm sound like the Unfleshed from the ultramarine series.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Rape is impractical in power armor. And disgusting, and has no place 40K.

Sigh.



Index Astartes page 29:
"Fulgrim turned his legion loose on the uncontested areas of the planet, where billions of terrified humans cowered at the sight of the followers of chaos...the space marines themselves sought even greater excesses of carnage and carnality." (Emphasis mine)



car·nal'i·ty (kär-nāl'ĭ-tē) n.
car·nal (kär'nəl) adj.
car'nal·ly adv.

Engaging in sexual intercourse, the fulfilling sexual appetites: carnal desire.

[Middle English, from Old North French carnel, from Latin carnālis, from Latin carō, carn-, flesh; see sker-1 in Indo-European roots.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

That and lucius desire is because of slannesh she could easaly add a few parts into a marines system

Doctor Thunder wrote:Can you have faith in a god who hates you? Can The Emperor redeem a creature without a soul? Would she have the strength to take her own life before the beast completely overwlelmed her?

It would be an effing epic story. Some introductory sketches:

her mother was from theocracy of infected Shrine World
her father was member of Navis Nobilite
their marriage was part of an ancient pact between the Navy and the Ecclesiarchy
both parents killed in a Chaos boarding action (maybe Fabius involved--he recognizes and personally spares her)
fleet saved at the last minute but she is left an orphan
because she is the "wax seal" as it were between such powerful parties she is adopted by powerful people
she is put into schola progeniume
she makes friends there
becomes friends with future inquisitor (crush develops)
she becomes fanatically religious but has bad flashbacks of her parents death so she joins a non-militant order of Adepta Sororitas
after brief exposure to battle, her corruption partially awakens
through great faith and some of her training, she overcomes the awakening
but she's a much more grim person and decides to train with militant chamber
she goes into battle and tries to keep it together
gradually aware that something is deeply wrong with her
maybe she has to spend some time in the Repentia
meets up with school friend who is now a radical inquisitor and doesn't want to burn her immediately
she leaves sororitas on assignment with Inquisitor friend as part of his retinue
she eventually picks up the scent of the maruaders who killed her parents
ultimately confronts truth about self and has to fight fully-fledged Black Widows

multiple conflict develops:
(1) revenge motive is source of faith but potentially source of fall
(2) "who am I really?" (your point, can the damned be saved?)
(3) distaste for Inquisitor friend's flexibility toward psykers, etc but dependent upon him for protection
(4) balanced off against a potential romance with him

40K is a beer and pretzels game. You should never take it too seriously. Doing so would be like taking candyland seriously.

Sure, you can make a candyland tournament and increase the level of competition and even give out a big trophy, but it remains nothing more then a child's game. Nothing wrong with enjoying a kids game, but the minute it becomes so serious that you write up several paragraphs about how it's just not acceptable to use a monopoly car instead of the gingerbread man that comes in the box, because it breaks the candyland universe, it's really time to take a step back and chill out about a million percent.


.

Note: I'm answering the OP's original question, so I hope I'm not too far off the present conversation.

Though I don't always agree with him, in this case, Gwar! is totally correct. There are no women SM's, but if YOU dear reader wish to write about them or create your own personal back-story about them, go ahead. But to attempt to make the assertion that women SM's are not only possible (which in itself is kind of a stretch), but should be accepted into the GW fluff that is widely recognized as fact is pretty ridiculous.

IN THE NAME OF THE EMPEROR . . .

. . . read the whole thread before posting. We've covered all of this ground, found where the real controversies were, gotten past it, and come back on track with something interesting and non-confrontational.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:You are not 'with-it' in any way shape or form, why don't you just concede the point?

You're asking me to take your opinion over that of Games Workshop's. Why should I do that?

You evidence is nothing more than some guys patting you on the back for your conversions or an editorial designed to make people buy more than one box for a single troop choice.

Marshal, you and I have talked about female space marines on many threads. I've quoted you articles from white dwarf, comments from the design team from the GW website and forums, and official statements from GW publishers.

Given our history, I find it very disingenuous of you to try and make it sound like I have not provided you any evidence.

If you do not consider GW to have any authority when it comes to the fiction they write, that is fine, but I do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Creating femarines does sound like something Fabius might try. Either he would have corrupted existing geneseed or attempted to genetically modify cloned material to be suitable to female biology. The results are probably unstable. Could be its own discrete type of Chaos unit, a la Noise Marines.

Okay, I'll take a chance on you guys, then.


The idea is that Fabius Bile wanted to make a chaos version of a genestealer. Something that could be seeded onto a target world, and interbreed with the local population for generations, then be unleashed when the world was attacked.

The black widows don't use geneseed. They were created by a fusion of technology and sorcery. The extra organs are present from birth, and lay dormant in them until activated by chemical and demonic treatment. Until then, they are externally indistinguishable from regular humans. The black widows themselves have no knowledge of their identity until the world they live on comes under attack, at which point their demonic nature is activated and they attack local authorities by the thousands, scavenging and stealing whatever gear they can find. Eventually they link up with the invading chaos forces, providing a large pool of reinforcements. When a chaos space marine falls, a black widow can be treated and prepped to don the suit of armor.

Bile's plan is to seed hundreds of thousands of worlds, and allow their descendants to grow in numbers with each generation, until they outnumber the untainted populations, overthrowing whole systems with barely a shot fired.

To prove I am not an donkey-cave, I have always liked the fluff for these girls. It is tragic and scary at the same time, and in my mind completely plausible, because Chaos did it. I am not against weird 'impossible' occurrences of femarines, I am against loyalist chapters inducting them like it is normal. Silber's famarines do this well, if Silbers keeps what he was considering. SO does that make my point better? The Ultramarines may not include women, but a renegade chapter who has little love for approved practices invoking sorcery and science to make something that isn't normally acceptable.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Manchu wrote:

It would be very interesting to trace out the story of a latent Widow adopted into the Schola Progenium and eventually inducted into the Adpeta Sororitas.

That could make a really neat short story. I'd have to double check on the screening methods used by the ecclesiarchy. Since they abhor witchcraft in all it's forms, it's possible they do not employ psykers to check for spiritual purity, which would allow a sleeper widow to slip through.

Her training and faith would give her resistance a normal person would not have. It would be a fun story to explore. Can you have faith in a god who hates you? Can The Emperor redeem a creature without a soul? Would she have the strength to take her own life before the beast completely overwlelmed her?

I would love to know more about these black widow and i to make fluff for my disputed army they are the lost sons and i root you on in your escapade ftw.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:To prove I am not an donkey-cave, I have always liked the fluff for these girls. It is tragic and scary at the same time, and in my mind completely plausible, because Chaos did it. I am not against weird 'impossible' occurrences of femarines, I am against loyalist chapters inducting them like it is normal. Silber's famarines do this well, if Silbers keeps what he was considering. SO does that make my point better? The Ultramarines may not include women, but a renegade chapter who has little love for approved practices invoking sorcery and science to make something that isn't normally acceptable.

Even if this isn't the prevailing sentiment, I agree with it. Dr Thunder's approach is a hundred times more interesting than an all-female company of Ultrasmurves.

@kogwar: Start a thread on the Lost Sons and the people will come. Honestly, there ought to be a separate thread for Black Widow fluff by this point but I'll leave that up to Thunder.

augfubuoy wrote:Though I don't always agree with him, in this case, Gwar! is totally correct.

Case closed, you can all go home now. No Further discussion is warranted

Gwar! wrote:

augfubuoy wrote:Though I don't always agree with him, in this case, Gwar! is totally correct.

Case closed, you can all go home now. No Further discussion is warranted

Dammit, it's just like saying Candlejack. Oh f--

Though I don't always agree with him, in this case, Gwar! is totally correct

.

You're so just trying to get into his Si-

Case closed, you can all go home now. No Further discussion is warranted

...DAMN HE BEAT ME TO THE CALL!

Hey hey hey. I don't really care about being/not being in Gwar!'s signature, but I only read the first page of the thread, and he seemed to have the most logical argument on the first page, that's all OK?

yeesh...

Um, Doctor Thunder? I have to ask, what would make the WHOLE female population turn to chaos? And not just some/many?

Is it a gene that Fabius realeases? Or would there be die-hard emperor loving chicks fighting for the Emprah?

augfubuoy wrote:Hey hey hey. I don't really care about being/not being in Gwar!'s signature, but I only read the first page of the thread, and he seemed to have the most logical argument on the first page, that's all OK?

yeesh...

We love you anyway!

Doctor Thunder wrote:Her training and faith would give her resistance a normal person would not have. It would be a fun story to explore. Can you have faith in a god who hates you? Can The Emperor redeem a creature without a soul? Would she have the strength to take her own life before the beast completely overwlelmed her?

Maybe the duality would be so incompatible she wouldn't realize that she had become a traitor?

She could just go on killing "mutants and daemons" throughout her chapel.

Is she acting on her own free will? Or has she been possesed/twisted/corrupted?

Well, she's gone insane. She can't conceive of her being a traitor so she goes into a dreamlike state where she's fighting for the emperor.

BUT SHE WAKES UP IN THE FINAL CHAPTER, TO SEE WHAT SHE'S DONE.

Is this a book? Or did you make it up? It's very in depth if you have.

Anyway, what would INSANE in the mebmrane count as? Does that make you corrupted? Personally, while it does not excuse you're actions, I think not.

Manchu wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:To prove I am not an donkey-cave, I have always liked the fluff for these girls. It is tragic and scary at the same time, and in my mind completely plausible, because Chaos did it. I am not against weird 'impossible' occurrences of femarines, I am against loyalist chapters inducting them like it is normal. Silber's famarines do this well, if Silbers keeps what he was considering. SO does that make my point better? The Ultramarines may not include women, but a renegade chapter who has little love for approved practices invoking sorcery and science to make something that isn't normally acceptable.

Even if this isn't the prevailing sentiment, I agree with it. Dr Thunder's approach is a hundred times more interesting than an all-female company of Ultrasmurves.

@kogwar: Start a thread on the Lost Sons and the people will come. Honestly, there ought to be a separate thread for Black Widow fluff by this point but I'll leave that up to Thunder.

I did and Dr thunder he is right

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is this a book? Or did you make it up? It's very in depth if you have.

Heh? I just made it up. It's not really that in depth, I'm just making stuff up as I go along.

Anyway, what would INSANE in the mebmrane count as? Does that make you corrupted? Personally, while it does not excuse you're actions, I think not.

Hmm. I always saw "corruption" as being from the eyes of the Imperium.

Though I don't always agree with him, in this case, Gwar! is totally correct

.

You're so just trying to get into his Si-

Case closed, you can all go home now. No Further discussion is warranted

augfubuoy wrote:Hey hey hey. I don't really care about being/not being in Gwar!'s signature, but I only read the first page of the thread, and he seemed to have the most logical argument on the first page, that's all OK?

yeesh...

WHAT THE HECK and augfubuoy have you posted on one of my threads before