would people have issues with me using my defiler models as soulgrinders?

1) As proxy, sure, go ahead
2) Converted to look more like Soulgrinders, sure, go ahead
3)Because you don't want to get another model for you deamons army, sure, but only for a while as per #1, and I get to harrass you about it.

yes it is basicly 3) I already have three defilers. they are pretty much the same model. so why buck up for three more?

of course. They are pretty WYSIWYG

big gun in center-check
machine gun- check
big bashy thing in right arm-check

Defiler:


soulgrinder:

Mars.Techpriest wrote:1) As proxy, sure, go ahead.

This, and only if I knew you well. If you pulled this at a random game I'd tell you to Go Buy a Soul grinder or not play. People wouldn't be happy me Proxying a Dreadnought as a Carnifex would they?

They work just fine as long as they have at least one close combat arm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! the trolle: This, and only if I knew you well. If you pulled this at a random game I'd tell you to Go Buy a Soul grinder or not play. People wouldn't be happy me Proxying a Dreadnought as a Carnifex would they?

This is an invalid comparison.
Dreadnoughts are metal squares, Carnifi are shelled flesh ovals. (Bricks to Brazil Nuts)
Defilers are metal encased demons, Soul Grinders are metal encased demons. (Soul Canister to Soul Canisters)
My case is clear.
Gwar! is wrong.

Gwar! wrote:

Mars.Techpriest wrote:1) As proxy, sure, go ahead.

This, and only if I knew you well. If you pulled this at a random game I'd tell you to Go Buy a Soul grinder or not play. People wouldn't be happy me Proxying a Dreadnought as a Carnifex would they?

Respectfully, whats the issue Gwar? They are generally WYSIWYG. They literally have the same chassis.

Frazzled wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Mars.Techpriest wrote:1) As proxy, sure, go ahead.

This, and only if I knew you well. If you pulled this at a random game I'd tell you to Go Buy a Soul grinder or not play. People wouldn't be happy me Proxying a Dreadnought as a Carnifex would they?

Respectfully, whats the issue Gwar? They are generally WYSIWYG. They literally have the same chassis.

Wasn't this issue discussed before? I thought the result was "if it matches the demons, who cares?"

I'm also starting to get the impression that Gwar is more concerned with being persnickity about rules than anything else.

My problem is that the Soulgrinder is 60 USD, where the Defiler is 55 USD.

Now I'm not saying that you can't use a defiler. What I'm saying is you should put some work into converting you defiler so it can be both. Ad more daemonic things to it, simple enough.

I think its a personal preference thing. Some people really don't like the Defiler model but like the Unbound, and vice versa. AsPolnius noted, there has been a discussion about using soulgrinders as defilers. their physical parameters are nearly identical.

Gwar! wrote:

Mars.Techpriest wrote:1) As proxy, sure, go ahead.

This, and only if I knew you well. If you pulled this at a random game I'd tell you to Go Buy a Soul grinder or not play. People wouldn't be happy me Proxying a Dreadnought as a Carnifex would they?

Proxying a Dreadnought as a Carnifex ... now there's a conversion Imperials using the nid codex ... If only I had the time and money

the defiler and soulgrinder are the same cost in dollars.

If I'm not mistaken the Soulgrinder went up in the price hike and the Defiler didn't.

Frazzled wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Mars.Techpriest wrote:1) As proxy, sure, go ahead.

This, and only if I knew you well. If you pulled this at a random game I'd tell you to Go Buy a Soul grinder or not play. People wouldn't be happy me Proxying a Dreadnought as a Carnifex would they?

Respectfully, whats the issue Gwar? They are generally WYSIWYG. They literally have the same chassis.

Heh, my issue is people coming to a Game with Half Painted models, 30% proxy army and then having the balls to accuse me of trying to Twist rules and be a Rules lawyer when I take my Painted and lovingly complete army (poorly painted but at least I made an effort). I mean, I went to the effort and Expense of getting the 6 Drop Pods I need for my 1500 list, (8 or 9 in 2000) and the expense of forge world bits to make my Ironclad and Plasma Cannon Dreadnoughts, am I really TFG if I ask that my Opponent actually buy the Models he wants to use?

Frazzled wrote:I think its a personal preference thing. Some people really don't like the Defiler model but like the Unbound, and vice versa. AsPolnius noted, there has been a discussion about using soulgrinders as defilers. their physical parameters are nearly identical.

That's why I give the same answer to this one as I did to that thread: anyone who has an actual issue with Soul Grinders or Defilers 'counting as' the other should probably consider whether or not perhaps that stick is inserted just a couple centimeters too far up their posterior. It's not even an issue of having to stretch the imagination, such as my fielding kroot mercenaries with my IG, having them count as penal legionnaires. Even without modification, from a WYSIWYG stance, they're almost completely interchangeable.

Glue some pubic hair on top the defiled and yuo aer good to go.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Glue some pubic hair on top the defiled and yuo aer good to go.

G

it is already on there but not held by glue

Yea, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all, unless your defilers are all Khornate while your daemon army is all Slaaneshi. Even then I would just tease you about it.

Really, I think the defiler makes a better soul grinder than the soul grinder, as I don't see how a naked torso has better armor than a steel box...

To appease people like Gwar who feels that his shedding blood for his army puts a requirement on you, I would add some GS to the defilers (assuming they are coming from a kit) to put them in a pupate stage, the state of becoming unbound. Honestly though, if you show up with a fully painted and assembled daemon army (I can understand him there) with 3 good looking defilers as soul grinders and your opponent doesn't want to play, that's a good sign that they are not worth playing against.

In a way, your 3 defiler/soul grinders could act as a safety feature in your army, protecting you from wasting 2 hours in a game awash with douchery.

Buggers and gis wil work 4 sho .

G

yeah they will be three world eater defilers in a khornezilla list.

i want to do the same thing, in the other direction. i play CSM and like the soul grinder model much better. of course i would make it wysiwyg and paint it to the best of my ability and, quite frankly, if my opponent seriously gives me crap, i dont want to play with them.

Exactly. Unless skkipper is on the other side tachin ur doodz, you should have nothing to worry about

I'm too lazy to check, but you could get the torso/arm/head (legs if you feel so inclined) bits for the Soulgrinders, tear off the Defiler torso (and claws if you feel so inclined), then magnetize everything for swappable units.

KaloranSLC wrote:I'm too lazy to check, but you could get the torso/arm/head (legs if you feel so inclined) bits for the Soulgrinders, tear off the Defiler torso (and claws if you feel so inclined), then magnetize everything for swappable units.

Yeah but that would take effort, which the whole reason for using a Defiler as a Grinder is meant to circumvent.

I'll never understand why there is an immediate presumption that every action that's not totally normal is somehow an effort to be cheap/lazy/cheat. If a guy has both a chaos SM and Demons army, why wouldn't he paint three models up to be usable for both> Not every counts as is a proxy.

Polonius wrote:I'll never understand why there is an immediate presumption that every action that's not totally normal is somehow an effort to be cheap/lazy/cheat. If a guy has both a chaos SM and Demons army, why wouldn't he paint three models up to be usable for both> Not every counts as is a proxy.

99% are though, which is why people get pissed off at it.

And god help you if you play a DKoK Player.

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:I'll never understand why there is an immediate presumption that every action that's not totally normal is somehow an effort to be cheap/lazy/cheat. If a guy has both a chaos SM and Demons army, why wouldn't he paint three models up to be usable for both> Not every counts as is a proxy.

99% are though, which is why people get pissed off at it.

And god help you if you play a DKoK Player.

What does the DKOK have to do with anything?

Polonius wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:I'll never understand why there is an immediate presumption that every action that's not totally normal is somehow an effort to be cheap/lazy/cheat. If a guy has both a chaos SM and Demons army, why wouldn't he paint three models up to be usable for both> Not every counts as is a proxy.

99% are though, which is why people get pissed off at it.

And god help you if you play a DKoK Player.

What does the DKOK have to do with anything?

I am using it as an example. Someone comes with a Full FW DKoK Army that they have spent time and money investing in and making legal, and then you show up "oh Hay I'm too Cheap/lazy can I use this as this kthnx". Would you if you were the DKoK player not be mightily pissed off?

No. Why would I?

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:I'll never understand why there is an immediate presumption that every action that's not totally normal is somehow an effort to be cheap/lazy/cheat. If a guy has both a chaos SM and Demons army, why wouldn't he paint three models up to be usable for both> Not every counts as is a proxy.

99% are though, which is why people get pissed off at it.

And god help you if you play a DKoK Player.

What does the DKOK have to do with anything?

I am using it as an example. Someone comes with a Full FW DKoK Army that they have spent time and money investing in and making legal, and then you show up "oh Hay I'm too Cheap/lazy can I use this as this kthnx". Would you if you were the DKoK player not be mightily pissed off?

I dunno, maybe some random DKOK guy would be, but not me. As a guy with a fully painted Praetorian Army pushing 8000pts I enjoy playing against painted armies as much as the next guy, but I also know that not everybody has the free time, skill, money, and energy that I do, and cut people some slack.

I'd also rather get in a good competitive game against a few proxies than roll over my opponents painted garbage.

Well, different strokes for different folks I guess.

I would be annoyed, I guess other people are more mellow and enjoy playing Cardboardhammer 40k.

-Shrug-

I'm sorry, I must be reading a different thread. What is this 'cardboardhammer' and could you please point out any posts actually advocating it?

I dunno know bout you all, but those Defilers look like they follow full WYSIWYG for a Soul Grinder. Frankly, aside from the need to feel superiority about MY LEGION OF PLASTIC (AND METAAL) TOY ARMY MEN, I see no reason why anyone can object to that proxy. It's not like you're going to be confusing the Defiler for any other unit in the Chaos Daemons codex.

Totally legal. No TO will disallow this.

sourclams wrote:Totally legal. No TO will disallow this.

So is it "Totally Legal" to use my Dreadnought as a Carnifex? Because that is what is happening, you are using Model 1 From Army A to represent Model 2 from Army B. If you can do it with Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines, I want to do it with Tyranids and Space Marines. I also want to use my Dark Eldar Raiders to use as Devilfish. Is that Totally legal? Again, it is the exact same thing.

Gwar! wrote:

sourclams wrote:Totally legal. No TO will disallow this.

So is it "Totally Legal" to use my Dreadnought as a Carnifex? Because that is what is happening, you are using Model 1 From Army A to represent Model 2 from Army B. If you can do it with Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines, I want to do it with Tyranids and Space Marines. I also want to use my Dark Eldar Raiders to use as Devilfish. Is that Totally legal? Again, it is the exact same thing.

If your Dreadnought was a biological monstrosity with two arms that looked strangely like scything claws and a couple more arms that looked like smoe other tyranid weapons, and had nearly identical legs to a carnifex and was painted like the rest of your tyranid army.

Bricks to Brazil Nuts, the Soulgrinder and the Defiler are almost exactly the same thing.
If I showed up at a game with a chaos daemons army and said "hey, this Herald is The Masque" would you seriously get on my case about it?
Do you complain to Tau players that their devilfish don't have disruption pods on them?
Or how about a KFF that doesn't actually produce a tangible field of force?

Face it Gwar, you are TFG. I'm glad you don't frequent my FLGS, or I would just have to call it my LGS.

Canonness Rory wrote:Bricks to Brazil Nuts, the Soulgrinder and the Defiler are almost exactly the same thing.

Almost doesn't quite cut it.

Canonness Rory wrote:If I showed up at a game with a chaos daemons army and said "hey, this Herald is The Masque" would you seriously get on my case about it?

Yes.

Canonness Rory wrote:Do you complain to Tau players that their devilfish don't have disruption pods on them?

Yes.

Canonness Rory wrote:Or how about a KFF that doesn't actually produce a tangible field of force?

Now you are being facetious. It's a game, if course it won't generate a force field. I do expect you to have a KFF modelled though.

Canonness Rory wrote:Face it Gwar, you are TFG. I'm glad you don't frequent my FLGS, or I would just have to call it my LGS.

My adherence to the rules would be a shock I am sure.

For friendly games, I'd say there's definitely no problem. I take a lot of time to model and paint my Boyz, but that's for my own enjoyment, I don't believe that it confers a responsibility to anyone that I play against to do the same.

Now, as for tournaments. I believe if you want to play at tourneys, or even against more serious players at your local game shop, you should have models that are what they actually are. It's kind of like the "fully painted" rule that a lot of tourneys have. I know that some people don't have the time or resources to do this, but that just means that they'll have to sit it out. Life's not fair sometimes.

Rules are important, but they are secondary to the reasons why we have rules. Modeling rules exist for a variety of reasons, none of which the defiler to soulgrinder swap violate. It's not about using modeling to advantage, as they're the same size and shape. It's not WYSIWYG, as they both share the same rough set of weapons.

and it's not like using a carnifex for a dreadnought. It's closer to using a DA captain as a BA captain. If it's painted to match the army, who cares?

You are putting adherence to the rules over all other aspects of the hobby, and that's just weird, man.

Boodie-fething-hoo, some people are in it for the FUN, not to sit at the table and complain that somebody's Nob is chipped and refuse to play against the army they obviously spent no time or effort on.
Here's a tip: Your army being painted better than mine, or modeled better than mine, or anything else does not make you a better person than me. You have no Moral high ground here. You are an dick and you give the rest of us a bad name.

Polonius wrote:You are putting adherence to the rules over all other aspects of the hobby, and that's just weird, man.

No, I am saying that for the game to be enjoyable, you must stick to the rules. If we say "it's OK to break the rules in XYZ situation" where does it stop?

Gwar! wrote:

sourclams wrote:Totally legal. No TO will disallow this.

So is it "Totally Legal" to use my Dreadnought as a Carnifex? Because that is what is happening, you are using Model 1 From Army A to represent Model 2 from Army B. If you can do it with Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines, I want to do it with Tyranids and Space Marines. I also want to use my Dark Eldar Raiders to use as Devilfish. Is that Totally legal? Again, it is the exact same thing.

Your Dreadnoughtfex isn't WYSIWYG.

Your Raiders aren't WYSIWYG.

See the common theme?

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:You are putting adherence to the rules over all other aspects of the hobby, and that's just weird, man.

No, I am saying that for the game to be enjoyable, you must stick to the rules. If we say "it's OK to break the rules in XYZ situation" where does it stop?

Ahh, the slippery slope, last refuge of the wrong and cranky.

You stop where breaking the rules actually impacts the game. Defiler for Soulgrinder does not. Properly painted and converted, it doesn't even affect the aesthetic.

Canonness Rory wrote:Boodie-fething-hoo, some people are in it for the FUN, not to sit at the table and complain that somebody's Nob is chipped and refuse to play against the army they obviously spent no time or effort on.
Here's a tip: Your army being painted better than mine, or modeled better than mine, or anything else does not make you a better person than me. You have no Moral high ground here. You are an dick and you give the rest of us a bad name.

Then why argue with him? He's saying that he wouldn't be happy if you pulled this against him. If that is this offensive to you, then don't play against people that are that hard into the rules. You know that soulgrinder>Defiler isn't the same as dreadnought>carnifex. I know it. Even Gwar! knows it, he's just using it as an example to prove his point that you can't just grab models as you please from whatever army you'd like and expect everyone to be ok with it. And you can't. Same basic shape and size=/=equal same. If I was at a tourney and someone pulled out a MAN that they glued a boss poll to and expected me to believe it was Ghazghkull, I'd tell them to get a real model (or at least custom make a better one), and would be right in doing so.

I'm sort of with you in that the game is supposed to be fun 1st. But as someone that has gotten into other games on a competitive level, I understand that there's a separate level of satisfaction in completely understanding, adhering to and mastering the rules. He's that type of person. You're not. big ing deal.

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:You are putting adherence to the rules over all other aspects of the hobby, and that's just weird, man.

No, I am saying that for the game to be enjoyable, you must stick to the rules. If we say "it's OK to break the rules in XYZ situation" where does it stop?

Except it's not breaking the rules to use a perfectly WYSIWYG model instead of another perfectly WYSIWYG model.
What if I wanted to use a converted piece on the table? I've been playing around with the idea of using some pieces from the warriors of chaos to model my chaos lord, would you complain because "your chaos lord's head looks like platemail rather than power armor, that's not WYSIWYG because platemail shouldn't get a 3+ save! And is that a hammer? You can't use a hammer as a Power Sword what's wrong with you!?"

sourclams wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

sourclams wrote:Totally legal. No TO will disallow this.

So is it "Totally Legal" to use my Dreadnought as a Carnifex? Because that is what is happening, you are using Model 1 From Army A to represent Model 2 from Army B. If you can do it with Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines, I want to do it with Tyranids and Space Marines. I also want to use my Dark Eldar Raiders to use as Devilfish. Is that Totally legal? Again, it is the exact same thing.

Your Dreadnoughtfex isn't WYSIWYG.

Your Raiders aren't WYSIWYG.

See the common theme?

And how is using a Chaos Space Marine Defiler WYSIWYG for a Chaos Daemons Soul Grinder? it isn't. It looks similar, but it is not WYSIWYG because What I see is a Defiler, but what I get is a Soul Grinder.

Deffgob wrote:Then why argue with him? He's saying that he wouldn't be happy if you pulled this against him. If that is this offensive to you, then don't play against people that are that hard into the rules. You know that soulgrinder>Defiler isn't the same as dreadnought>carnifex. I know it. Even Gwar! knows it, he's just using it as an example to prove his point that you can't just grab models as you please from whatever army you'd like and expect everyone to be ok with it. And you can't. Same basic shape and size=/=equal same. If I was at a tourney and someone pulled out a MAN that they glued a boss poll to and expected me to believe it was Ghazghkull, I'd tell them to get a real model (or at least custom make a better one), and would be right in doing so.

Finally someone with Brains on Dakka. I never thought I'd meet another! (Apart from Lunahound ofc, but she has Chesticles and therefore better than us Mortals )

Gwar! wrote:And how is using a Chaos Space Marine Defiler WYSIWYG for a Chaos Daemons Soul Grinder? it isn't. It looks similar, but it is not WYSIWYG because What I see is a Defiler, but what I get is a Soul Grinder.

Daemon Engine: Check
Cannon: Check
Multibarrel Gun: Check
Close Combat Claw: Check
Arachnoid Tarantula Chassis that makes the model bigger than a Land Raider: Check

How's it different again? Oh right, it's not. Good try though. Likewise I sure hope your Space Wolves dreadnoughts are all the old metal models, not the Ultramarines Assault on Black Reach models. And I sure hope that your Space Wolves all have multiple Space Wolf Upgrade Sprue bits, because I sure as hell don't recall Ultramarines being recruited for Blood Claws. And god help you if you have any heavy weapons models that didn't come from the Long Fangs box.

sourclams wrote:Likewise I sure hope your Space Wolves dreadnoughts are all the old metal models, not the Ultramarines Assault on Black Reach models. And I sure hope that your Space Wolves all have multiple Space Wolf Upgrade Sprue bits, because I sure as hell don't recall Ultramarines being recruited for Blood Claws. And god help you if you have any heavy weapons models that didn't come from the Long Fangs box.

Well, as it is, yes, My Venerable Dreadnoughts ARE the old metal models, it's even got the date stamped inside it (one is stripped and awaiting repaint atm, the other at a friends house by accident) made in 1993. All my Grey Hunters and Blood Claws are made from their Respective boxes. As for Long Fangs, I actually don't have any Built, but I have a Box Stashed away Somewhere.

Would you like a Picture?

So, you were ranting about WYSIWYG?

Yes please, of each model, with the relevant Space Wolf Sprue bits highlighted. It's only fair, really, that you provide the proof of your assertion.

Gwar! wrote:

sourclams wrote:Likewise I sure hope your Space Wolves dreadnoughts are all the old metal models, not the Ultramarines Assault on Black Reach models. And I sure hope that your Space Wolves all have multiple Space Wolf Upgrade Sprue bits, because I sure as hell don't recall Ultramarines being recruited for Blood Claws. And god help you if you have any heavy weapons models that didn't come from the Long Fangs box.

, My Venerable Dreadnoughts ARE the old metal models

Models? Sorry, I refuse to play you until you have an actual, live venerable dreadnought from the Space Wolves chapter on the table.

And god help you if your space marines aren't actually 8 feet tall.

sourclams wrote:Yes please, of each model, with the relevant Space Wolf Sprue bits highlighted. It's only fair, really, that you provide the proof of your assertion.

As you wish. As I said one model is not in my possession atm, but I will gladly take some pictures of my recently stripped models for you. Hell, I even have a 2nd edition GH Box that I haven't painted yet, I'll take a photo of it too.

Gimme a minute

to the very respectable Gwar! trolle:
Not a fan of anything counts-as? Mechanicus and Genestealer Cult armies must really get your goat.

Anyhow, GW has suggested counts-as modeling as acceptable on multiple occasions.
As long as those counts-as models are consistent.

Thus, I reiterate, Gwar! is wrong.
Both in sportsmanlike behavior and in judgment.

No Offence, but a themed counts as army is in a totaly different league to "Im lazy I wanna use my Defiler as a Soul grinder"

And now for you mr Sourpuss, These aren't ALL my models (as it is 5am and I frankly have better things to do) But certainly enough for you to put to bed any worries that I might not have a WYSIWYG Army.
Firstly, my metal Old Venerable Dreadnought

Now, some rather Wolfy Looking Stripped Blood Claws

The Black primed SW Accessory Sprue for my Upcoming Grey Hunters

And now my Box of Second Edition Grey Hunters, which I have yet to even Unpack yet. See, I was so concerned about you Sourclams I actually Unpacked them for you.


Convinced?

So, would a properly converted model that could easily do double duty also offend you? Meaning, if it wasn't simply a product of sloth, is there a way you could see a model being used as one or the other?

Polonius wrote:So, would a properly converted model that could easily do double duty also offend you? Meaning, if it wasn't simply a product of sloth, is there a way you could see a model being used as one or the other?

No, a Model that was converted to be modular and able to be used as both legally would be acceptable. What is not acceptable is just putting down a Stock Defiler and claiming it is a Soul Grinder.

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:So, would a properly converted model that could easily do double duty also offend you? Meaning, if it wasn't simply a product of sloth, is there a way you could see a model being used as one or the other?

No, a Model that was converted to be modular and able to be used as both legally would be acceptable. What is not acceptable is just putting down a Stock Defiler and claiming it is a Soul Grinder.

OK, now what level of conversion is required? I would like as specific a standard as possible. Does it have to magnetized and modular?

So how, respectable trolle Gwar!, do you tell the difference between a person that prefers the aesthetic of the Defiler as opposed to the Soulgrinder.
Do you reserve your condemnation until they subject themselves to your gentle pre-game interrogations?
Or do you assume the worst, and silently brew in your annoyance giving them poor soft-scores?

Belphegor wrote:So how, respectable trolle Gwar!, do you tell the difference between a person that prefers the aesthetic of the Defiler as opposed to the Soulgrinder.
Do you reserve your condemnation until they subject themselves to your gentle pre-game interrogations?
Or do you assume the worst, and silently brew in your annoyance giving them poor soft-scores?

No I tell them straight up "That is not a Soul Grinder, that is a Defiler. Why are you using an Incorrect model? Please remove the model and replace it with the correct one." If I am in a tournament and the TO has Cleared it, I'll shrug it off. After all, that Same TO can choose to ban Pink Models if he wants. In a Non Tournament Game I will just tell him to either get his army complete or not play at all.

Belphegor wrote:So how, respectable trolle Gwar!, do you tell the difference between a person that prefers the aesthetic of the Defiler as opposed to the Soulgrinder.
Do you reserve your condemnation until they subject themselves to your gentle pre-game interrogations?
Or do you assume the worst, and silently brew in your annoyance giving them poor soft-scores?

Real points: If I ever pan to field a defiler, I will go for the soul grinder model, it is simply cooler looking. I'll probably slap a reaper autocannon onto it instead of it's multi-barreled thing, but yeah, some people just prefer them for aesthetic reasons.

Do you reserve your condemnation until they subject themselves to your gentle pre-game interrogations?

I'd submit myself to your gentle pre-game interrogations.....

Honestly, how can anyone have any kind of issue with the Soul Grinder... its just too adorable.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with you fielding one as a Defiler. In fact I'd demand that you do it. Even if you weren't playing Chaos I'd be all 'Soul Grinder... NAO!'

I use a slightly converted warlock (energy crackling around spearhead) as a Farseer in an army that does not have any other Warlocks in it. Before reading any further, I'd like to hear Gwar's opinion on that.

I wouldn't have an issue as long as he didn't bring along an allied Chaos force - there's no confusion, it's adequately WYSIWYG (better than half of the character conversions I've seen), and although a bit of conversion would be nice (and mag-swappable bits even better!), there's no problem. At least not one worth writing a dozen complaining posts about.

Lol, slilly Gwar, when he starts trolling he really goes all out.

Either that, or my comment about certain players needing to unclench a little was more apt than I thought.

I don't know dude, let's see if you're genuine. If someone shows up with a complete IG army and says they're using DKoK rules, are you going to tell them to get off the table unless they're packing 100% Forge World?

Bookwrack wrote:I don't know dude, let's see if you're genuine. If someone shows up with a complete IG army and says they're using DKoK rules, are you going to tell them to get off the table unless they're packing 100% Forge World?

Yes. You want to play DkoK, you pay for the models. If you want to proxy it out, I would probably let you, depending on the circumstances. If you are just being a cheap lazy git, then no I would not.

So are you going to actually articulate a rule for how much conversion is required for a defiler to be used as soulgrinder, or vice versa?

Polonius wrote:So are you going to actually articulate a rule for how much conversion is required for a defiler to be used as soulgrinder, or vice versa?

It's called discretion. Has someone gone to the effort of making a model that can work as both/be modular? Then yes, that's an acceptable Conversion

Has someone just put down a stock Defiler with no conversion effort and just said "Dis be da Soulja Boi!"? Then no, I'll tell them to GTFO.

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:So are you going to actually articulate a rule for how much conversion is required for a defiler to be used as soulgrinder, or vice versa?

It's called discretion. Has someone gone to the effort of making a model that can work as both/be modular? Then yes, that's an acceptable Conversion

Has someone just put down a stock Defiler with no conversion effort and just said "Dis be da Soulja Boi!"? Then no, I'll tell them to GTFO.

What if it is a stock defiler, painted to match a players demon army? Would it matter if he didn't own a CSM army?

No, that is not acceptable. It is the same as Painting a Dreadnought in Nid Colours and Claiming it is a Carnifex.

Gwar! wrote:No, that is not acceptable. It is the same as Painting a Dreadnought in Nid Colours and Claiming it is a Carnifex.

Well, except that again, it's not. It'd be closer to painting a DA captain for Ultramarines, but that's I suppose just gravy.

How much conversion is required? Massive green stuff? A simple weapon swap? What are we talking here?


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Would it be problematic to use DA veteran bodies to represent stern guard? What about using space wolf bits in a non-space wolf army?

What about using Inquisitorial Henchmen to represent IG advisers? Using an Inquisitor as a primaris psyker? What about as a Psyker Battle Squad?

What I'm getting is it to see if there is some rule or standard by which you operate, or if it's sheer whim. The better you explain by which you judge this stuff, the less arbitrary and capricious you appear.

I mean, I appreciate the "I don't want to face lazy proxy" standard. But if you wont' allow a well painted counts as, there has to then be some level of conversion that you require. I think at that point you've gone a bit farther than most people, but if you were able to state, "I want to see a marked difference, in at least one area, between a stock defiler and the conversion," that would help.

Hahaha how much drama Gwar! can create is quite amusing.

I want to see a marked difference, in at least one area, between a stock defiler and the conversion

I'd also rather get in a good competitive game against a few proxies than roll over my opponents painted garbage.
******
Agreed. Thats a complete aspect of the hobby utterly absent from this conversion. At a certain point, many people want to create or modify armies in their own image.

But thats neither here nor there. I'd strenuously object to anyone having the temerity to suggest an unbound Defiler is a "proxy" for a Bound Defiler.


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Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:You are putting adherence to the rules over all other aspects of the hobby, and that's just weird, man.

No, I am saying that for the game to be enjoyable, you must stick to the rules. If we say "it's OK to break the rules in XYZ situation" where does it stop?

As soon as you can show me a rule they are breaking, I'd almost understand your argument.

Frankly Gwar, this an entire aspect of the hobby that you seem to not be participating in. Conversions of minis, troops, vehicles,, entire armies, were in place before most of the armies, lists etc. were even conceived. Indeed, GW fully supports this aspect of the hobby. I'd proffer people have been converting armies, with the full support of GW, before you were born. I'm not being sarcastic, but brutally serious.

The though that they are some how cheating belies:
*No concept of the time it takes to convert a piece, much less an army.
*No concept of the history of the game you are playing.
*No concept of the founders of the game you are playing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Belphegor wrote:So how, respectable trolle Gwar!, do you tell the difference between a person that prefers the aesthetic of the Defiler as opposed to the Soulgrinder.
Do you reserve your condemnation until they subject themselves to your gentle pre-game interrogations?
Or do you assume the worst, and silently brew in your annoyance giving them poor soft-scores?

No I tell them straight up "That is not a Soul Grinder, that is a Defiler. Why are you using an Incorrect model? Please remove the model and replace it with the correct one." If I am in a tournament and the TO has Cleared it, I'll shrug it off. After all, that Same TO can choose to ban Pink Models if he wants. In a Non Tournament Game I will just tell him to either get his army complete or not play at all.

The problem is, as you like to say, YOU ARE BREAKING THE RULES WHEN YOU SAY THAT (tee hee). Both are defilers. One is bound, one is unbound. By attempting to deny your opponent the use of that model you are cheating. Cheating Cheating Cheater who cheats! (I feel better about myself)



(Gwar do you have links to pics of this full DKOK army?)

Frazzled wrote:Frankly Gwar, this an entire aspect of the hobby that you seem to not be participating in. Conversions of minis, troops, vehicles,, entire armies, were in place before most of the armies, lists etc. were even conceived. Indeed, GW fully supports this aspect of the hobby. I'd proffer people have been converting armies, with the full support of GW, before you were born. I'm not being sarcastic, but brutally serious.

The though that they are some how cheating belies:
*No concept of the time it takes to convert a piece, much less an army.
*No concept of the history of the game you are playing.
*No concept of the founders of the game you are playing.

Actually, I think you're incorrect here.

Converting is fine. Using one model as another because you've got them and you're lazy is not. If I can look at the converted defiler and it's obvious that it's supposed to be a soul grinder then that's fine.

As for the history/founding of the game - try going into a GW store at any point in 40K's history and saying "this model is actually something else". When I started playing Rogue Trader you either had the model or you didn't. This whole proxying thing is extremely recent.

Also, I think a lot of people misunderstand the Counts As rule. Saying "my captain with plasma pistol and power weapon counts as Sicarius" is not the same as saying "my predator annihilator counts as a predator destructor".

When you played RT most models didn't exist.

You literally can't convert a model without viol,ating Gwar's incorrect rule.

Yup, so conversions and scratch builds were common.

What was not common was saying "see this model, it's actually something else today because I want that unit for my army but I can't be bothered to buy or make one".

You either bought it, converted it, scratch built it or else you didn't have it.

Even Gwar isn't saying that a converted defiler's not acceptable - you just have to put some effort into making it a soul grinder.

Why? Its WYSYWG. There's no rule against it.

Its like saying a Forgeworld Dread thats WYSIWYG can't be used unless I do some sort of conversion to it.

Its like saying I can't use a generic tac marine as a Dark Angel Tacmarine.

Generic Speeder as a Space Wolf speeder.

Eldrad as a generic farseer.

A dreadnaught is a dreadnaught, doesn't matter who made it - it's clearly a dreadnaught.

A tactical marine is a tactical marine - there is no difference in appearance or weapons between a normal and dark angel marine.

Likewise speeder.

Eldrad is a farseer so that would be okay but I would personally get fed up with having to remind opponents that it's not Eldrad and would probably convert it a bit.

A defiler is not a soul grinder. It wouldn't be difficult to convert a defiler to show that the daemon is or is becoming un-bound. Why is that such a problem? The OP has already said that he wants to use defilers because he can't be bothered buying or converting soul grinders. Why is that acceptable?

Why he wants to do it is irrelevant. Under the Gwar standard it has to be exactly the correct mini from the corect codex.

A vanilla dreadnought is not a DA dreadnought. They are from different codexes so right out.

A tac marine is not the same as a DA tac marine. They are from different codexes so right out.

Likewise speeder.

See why the argument does not stand up to examination?

Scott-S6 wrote:A defiler is not a soul grinder. It wouldn't be difficult to convert a defiler to show that the daemon is or is becoming un-bound. Why is that such a problem? The OP has already said that he wants to use defilers because he can't be bothered buying or converting soul grinders. Why is that acceptable?

Because it has the same model footprint, the same size, (indeed, they share many of the same parts) the appropriate weaponry, and can't be mistaken for anything else.

That's why Gwar's 'carnifex/dreadnought' supposition is such an abject failure, since the only thing a fex and dread share are base size.

Finally, there's the fact that I think Soul Grinder's look a lot better than Defilers. If I ran a CSM army, I'd certainly prefer to buy them over the standard Defiler.

the question comes what does the soul grinder have that the defiler doesn't.

a cannon coming out of mouth? yep
multibarrel extra gun? yep
extra close combat weapon? yep
same size? yep
same shape? yep

it would be like telling an orc player that they can't use a landraider that has been converted into a battlewagon, because there is battlewagon model and the landraider isn't the same profile.

I am going to use them as soulgrinders. It sums it up nicely if I run into a Gwar type person and he refuse to play I am better off.

skkipper wrote:the question comes what does the soul grinder have that the defiler doesn't.

a cannon coming out of mouth? yep
multibarrel extra gun? yep
extra close combat weapon? yep
same size? yep
same shape? yep

it would be like telling an orc player that they can't use a landraider that has been converted into a battlewagon, because there is battlewagon model and the landraider isn't the same profile.

I am going to use them as soulgrinders. It sums it up nicely if I run into a Gwar type person and he refuse to play I am better off.

Even more than that (and keep U handz of my minis!)
It has the exact same chassis. Its really akin to the difference between a regular dread and a venerable dread with the same loadout. One looks cool, one looks like someone played "pimp my chassis."

Scott-S6 wrote:Also, I think a lot of people misunderstand the Counts As rule. Saying "my captain with plasma pistol and power weapon counts as Sicarius" is not the same as saying "my predator annihilator counts as a predator destructor".

Using your own analogy you shouldn't have any problem with the Defiler/Soulgrinder swap. A Defiler is in effect the Captain with plas and power weapon and the Soulgrinder is Sicarius. It is a general model with identical equipment to the specific model, such that there is no noticeable difference or impact on game play.

The Predator Annihilator counting as a Predator Destructor is the Black Reach Dreadnought that wants to be an Iron Clad.

And the Dreadnought that wants to be a Carnifex is an argument so bogus that you didn't even try to justify it, and I don't blame you for it.

cheetos hands for the win!!!

I dunno, I think the comparison with the dreadnought and the carnifex is considerably appropriate.



Most importantly, in my mind, the SG is a creature with flesh, as is the carnifex. The Defiler is entirely metal, as is the dreadnought. After all, we're playing with toy soldiers, and part of the game is that they're meant to be WYSIWYG - this is even in the rulebook. A Defiler might share a few design components with a Soul Grinder, but it doesn't look like a Soul Grinder.

Let's look at some further comparisons:

The Soul Grinder and Defiler share the same base (4 common legs) The Dread and the Carnifex share the same base (60mm, round)


The SG and Defiler have several weapon options that could 'count as' the other's weapons. The Battle-cannon on a defiler could count-as a maw. The Autocannon on a defiler could count-as a Reaper cannon. In reality, they look nothing like these guns, but, counts-as.

The Carnifex and Dreadnought also have several weapon options that could count-as the other's weapons. The Barbed Strangler can easily count-as an assault cannon, the Venom Cannon can count-as a multi-melta, and the Crab-claws can count as a DCCW.

I don't think that having four robotic-spider-legs in common is enough to consider different models, from different armies, equivalent enough to interchange. They don't have the same weapons, and as such, they violate the WYSIWYG rule. If you allow this, then I believe you have to allow Carnifexes and Ork Dreadnoughts as stand-ins for Marine Dreadnoughts.

Do the Carnifex and the Dreadnought share 50% of identical sprues?

Because I can open a Soulgrinder box, clip everything off, throw it in a pile, pick up the instructions for a Defiler, and assemble at least 50% of a Defiler model with no deviation.

It's the same model.

Not to be TFG, as I personally wouldn't care, but 50% != 100%. Though I'd get more satisfaction with a modular conversion, and think the Soul Grinder looks far more appropriate in a Daemon army than a Defiler does, it's a close enough counts-as to avoid any confusion over what it is on the table. The same would go for a Carnifex/Dreadnought counts-as. As long as it's the only one on the table, with weapon mounts that can be picked out fairly easily, I would not have issues playing against it - as long as it was a temporary proxy meant to be used to see how the unit fit in my opponent's army. I can't justify getting snippy at someone if they simply want to test something rather than dropping $60 and not have it work out. I've been my own victim of that far too often.

Most importantly, in my mind, the SG is a creature with flesh, as is the carnifex. The Defiler is entirely metal, as is the dreadnought. After all, we're playing with toy soldiers, and part of the game is that they're meant to be WYSIWYG - this is even in the rulebook. A Defiler might share a few design components with a Soul Grinder, but it doesn't look like a Soul Grinder.

Let's look at some further comparisons:

The Soul Grinder and Defiler share the same base (4 common legs) The Dread and the Carnifex share the same base (60mm, round)
****More than that. It’s the SAME identical chassis. There is no difference. Its comparing a marine dread chassis to a marine dread chassis.

The SG and Defiler have several weapon options that could 'count as' the other's weapons. The Battle-cannon on a defiler could count-as a maw. The Autocannon on a defiler could count-as a Reaper cannon. In reality, they look nothing like these guns, but, counts-as.
****I’ll grant you that.

The Carnifex and Dreadnought also have several weapon options that could count-as the other's weapons. The Barbed Strangler can easily count-as an assault cannon, the Venom Cannon can count-as a multi-melta, and the Crab-claws can count as a DCCW.
***The difference of course is 1. same exact location between the two defilers whereas this false comparison does not have that; 2. They don’t look similar. 3. Both chaos, just like all both a vanilla and space wolf dreadnought are marine dreadnoughts.

Again, to show the visual similarities vs. the misbegotten nature fo the dread/nid comparison
Defiler /soulgrinder. Note same size, chassis, similar weapon systems

Defiler


Soulgrinder.


Carnifex and dreadnought. Whats the same again? Oh yes, the base.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/33598-Carnifex%2C%20Tyrinid%2C%20Snipefex.html

I, yet again, encourage a reflection on why the WYSIWYG rule exists to see if this causes any problem:
1) It does not cause confusion as to armament. SGs have set weapons, and thus can be represented by nearly anything that could work as a "Maw cannon" or a a "soul reaper".
2) It is the same size, shape, and footprint. It is nearly the same model, so that's pretty easy.
3) It does not diminish the aesthetics of the game. A well painted defiler looks just as chaotic as a soulgrinder, and does not clash like a carnifex/dreadnought proxy.

Given that there are two very vague rules at work here (using the appropriate model vs. counts as), the key is to look at why those rules exist, and see if any factors for one or the other weigh more heavily.

Polonius wrote:I, yet again, encourage a reflection on why the WYSIWYG rule exists to see if this causes any problem:
...
3) It does not diminish the aesthetics of the game. A well painted defiler looks just as chaotic as a soulgrinder, and does not clash like a carnifex/dreadnought proxy.

Well, that's certainly a matter of opinion. Mine is opposite - I believe that it does clash. Look at the rest of the daemon range. There's nothing boxy about any of it. I think the defiler most definitely does clash with the other daemons.

It's a good proxy, because it's the right size. But it's not part of the army, it doesn't fit. Aesthetically, a defiler doesn't work with the daemons.

Scott-S6 wrote:A dreadnaught is a dreadnaught, doesn't matter who made it - it's clearly a dreadnaught.

A tactical marine is a tactical marine - there is no difference in appearance or weapons between a normal and dark angel marine.

Likewise speeder.

Eldrad is a farseer so that would be okay but I would personally get fed up with having to remind opponents that it's not Eldrad and would probably convert it a bit.

A defiler is not a soul grinder. It wouldn't be difficult to convert a defiler to show that the daemon is or is becoming un-bound. Why is that such a problem? The OP has already said that he wants to use defilers because he can't be bothered buying or converting soul grinders. Why is that acceptable?

KaloranSLC wrote:Not to be TFG, as I personally wouldn't care, but 50% != 100%.

My Point exactly. You have to understand, if a Player made some effort to convert it and make it modular/dual use, I would have 0 problem with it. My problem stems from the fact that the only reason anyone would place down a stock Defiler and go "This is a Soul Grinder" is just being lazy.

Redbeard wrote:

Polonius wrote:I, yet again, encourage a reflection on why the WYSIWYG rule exists to see if this causes any problem:
...
3) It does not diminish the aesthetics of the game. A well painted defiler looks just as chaotic as a soulgrinder, and does not clash like a carnifex/dreadnought proxy.

Well, that's certainly a matter of opinion. Mine is opposite - I believe that it does clash. Look at the rest of the daemon range. There's nothing boxy about any of it. I think the defiler most definitely does clash with the other daemons.

It's a good proxy, because it's the right size. But it's not part of the army, it doesn't fit. Aesthetically, a defiler doesn't work with the daemons.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that then redbeard. On the positive, i now have ideas on how to combine both with a model showing the soulgrinder "breaking out" of a defiler model. Very cool.

Frazzled wrote:We'll just have to agree to disagree on that then redbeard. On the positive, i now have ideas on how to combine both with a model showing the soulgrinder "breaking out" of a defiler model. Very cool.

Do that and I'll have no problem You know you wanna make me happy

Redbeard wrote:
Well, that's certainly a matter of opinion. Mine is opposite - I believe that it does clash. Look at the rest of the daemon range. There's nothing boxy about any of it. I think the defiler most definitely does clash with the other daemons.

Blood Crushers are boxy. In fact, juggernaughts are boxy in much the same fashion as a defiler.... hrm...

As an amusing aside, Sourclams, didn't you and I have an argument previously about WYSIWYG regarding CSM and SM? Something along the lines of using C:SM rules for your CSM Legions not being ok? Does this new approach on your part signal a change in heart?

The old juggernauts perhaps. The new juggernauts are all curves; there are few, if any, right angles anywhere on the model.

Wehrkind wrote:
As an amusing aside, Sourclams, didn't you and I have an argument previously about WYSIWYG regarding CSM and SM? Something along the lines of using C:SM rules for your CSM Legions not being ok? Does this new approach on your part signal a change in heart?

As I recall, that debate was regarding using SM models as a counts-as Chaos models with no conversion whatsoever. Newly turned traitor, or somesuch. Someone was saying that it was not confusing for him to use SM Terms as Oblits, and his opponents shouldn't ever have problems with that. My point of view was that SM Terms similarity to Chaos Terms would cause confusion as to whether or not a model was a Terminator, or an Oblit.

In the case of whether or not a Soulgrinder/Defiler is a Soulgrinder/Defiler when played in a CSM or Caemons army, I don't see how there could ever be any confusion.

Ok, pretend I take the autocannon off a soulgrinder and put a reaper autocannon there.

The two models now share %50+ of the parts and the same paint scheme.

Now pretend a scratch-build a terminator chaos lord out of a chaos terminator, aspiring champion, and a WHFB warriors of chaos model.
The two models (GW terminator lord and this new one) have 0 parts in common.

They are both WYSIWYG.
But only 1 of them is acceptable?
Makes perfect sense.

Canonness Rory wrote:But only 1 of them is acceptable?
Makes perfect sense.

Yes, only one is acceptable because one has been a lazy attempt to save on work, while the other has had effort put into it.

Gwar! wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:But only 1 of them is acceptable?
Makes perfect sense.

Yes, only one is acceptable because one has been a lazy attempt to save on work, while the other has had effort put into it.

1.) What if they just prefer how the soulgrinder looks? Like I said, if I ever plan to field a defiler im just going to buy a soulgrinder because I think it looks cooler. I'll probably put a reaper autocannon on it's arm, so it would take slightly more work than a defiler would.

2.)So if space marine player shows up with a poorly painted and poorly assembled, but 100% codex models, you will refuse to play them because they didn't put as much effort as you did into your army?
Hell, even GW says you shouldn't try to make every single infantryman look perfect if you're trying to field a decent sized army!
I pity anyone who tries to play IG against you.
"YOU DIDN'T PAINT THE EYES!"
"YOU DIDN'T DRILL YOUR LASGUNS OUT!"
"YOU DIDN'T PUT LASER-POINTERS IN YOUR HULL-MOUNTED-LASCANNON!"

Canonness Rory wrote:1.) What if they just prefer how the soulgrinder looks?

Sucks to be them. I prefer how the Carnifex Looks. That doesn't mean I can use it as a Drop Pod

Canonness Rory wrote:2.)So if space marine player shows up with a poorly painted and poorly assembled, but 100% codex models, you will refuse to play them because they didn't put as much effort as you did into your army?
Hell, even GW says you shouldn't try to make every single infantryman look perfect if you're trying to field a decent sized army!
I pity anyone who tries to play IG against you.
"YOU DIDN'T PAINT THE EYES!"
"YOU DIDN'T DRILL YOUR LASGUNS OUT!"
"YOU DIDN'T PUT LASER-POINTERS IN YOUR HULL-MOUNTED-LASCANNON!"

If they are all models that are representative of what they actually are (i.e. No "This Monolith is actually a Whirlwind") then I couldn't care less if it was painted poorly or not. He has done it to the best of his ability.

If the same person were to come and put a Monolith down and go "This is a Whirlwind", it could be the most spectacularly painted thing since Da Vinci but I will tell him to get a whirlwind if he wants to use a whirlwind.

Likewise if someone just puts down a defiler and says "It's a soul grinder hurrrrrrrrr!" I'll tell them if they want to use a Soul Grinder then put down a Soul Grinder.

Are you quite finished with your attack against my character?

Are you quite finished with your attack against my character?

Cry some more.

Gwar, I don't know what you're getting out of this. You have nothing to gain. Give up.

Guys, I think think it's safe to say that we've reached a point where nobody is going to change anybody's mind, and simply paying attention to somebody who clearly craves it is not doing any favors to the thread.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Gwar, I don't know what you're getting out of this. You have nothing to gain. Give up.

Are my posts breaking any of Dakkas rules? I have in fact been extra careful to not lose my temper and be rude, unlike others in this thread.

What is your take on this? If I were to come to a game with you and place a Monolith Down on the table and say "This is a whirlwind", would you be annoyed? Yes or No, please.


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Polonius wrote:Guys, I think think it's safe to say that we've reached a point where nobody is going to change anybody's mind, and simply paying attention to somebody who clearly craves it is not doing any favors to the thread.

More indirect attacks against my character. I thought you were better than that.

Gwar! wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:1.) What if they just prefer how the soulgrinder looks?

Sucks to be them. I prefer how the Carnifex Looks. That doesn't mean I can use it as a Drop Pod

Canonness Rory wrote:2.)So if space marine player shows up with a poorly painted and poorly assembled, but 100% codex models, you will refuse to play them because they didn't put as much effort as you did into your army?
Hell, even GW says you shouldn't try to make every single infantryman look perfect if you're trying to field a decent sized army!
I pity anyone who tries to play IG against you.
"YOU DIDN'T PAINT THE EYES!"
"YOU DIDN'T DRILL YOUR LASGUNS OUT!"
"YOU DIDN'T PUT LASER-POINTERS IN YOUR HULL-MOUNTED-LASCANNON!"

If they are all models that are representative of what they actually are (i.e. No "This Monolith is actually a Whirlwind") then I couldn't care less if it was painted poorly or not. He has done it to the best of his ability.

If the same person were to come and put a Monolith down and go "This is a Whirlwind", it could be the most spectacularly painted thing since Da Vinci but I will tell him to get a whirlwind if he wants to use a whirlwind.

Likewise if someone just puts down a defiler and says "It's a soul grinder hurrrrrrrrr!" I'll tell them if they want to use a Soul Grinder then put down a Soul Grinder.

Are you quite finished with your attack against my character?

and we are saying a soul grinder equals a defiler. like a space wolves dreadnaught can be used as a space marine dreadnaught. they are the same model with the same weapon loadout with the same profile. a black reach dreadnaught used as a chaos dreadnaught same sort of thing.

skkipper wrote:and we are saying a soul grinder equals a defiler. like a space wolves dreadnaught can be used as a space marine dreadnaught. they are the same model with the same weapon loadout with the same profile. a black reach dreadnaught used as a chaos dreadnaught same sort of thing.

No, it is like saying a Monolith is a Whirlwind.

Gwar! wrote:

skkipper wrote:and we are saying a soul grinder equals a defiler. like a space wolves dreadnaught can be used as a space marine dreadnaught. they are the same model with the same weapon loadout with the same profile. a black reach dreadnaught used as a chaos dreadnaught same sort of thing.

No, it is like saying a Monolith is a Whirlwind.

is a monolith the same size as a whirlwind no
same weapons no

it is wsywig for the army and I am glad you don't live by me.

skkipper wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

skkipper wrote:and we are saying a soul grinder equals a defiler. like a space wolves dreadnaught can be used as a space marine dreadnaught. they are the same model with the same weapon loadout with the same profile. a black reach dreadnaught used as a chaos dreadnaught same sort of thing.

No, it is like saying a Monolith is a Whirlwind.

is a monolith the same size as a whirlwind no
same weapons no

Does the Defiler have the EXACT same weapons as a Soul Grinder? Is it the EXACT same size down to the last Planck length?

No to both.

skkipper wrote:it is wsywig for the army and I am glad you don't live by me.

I'm glad I don't live near me too.

If you actually have to explain what the model is, WYSIWYG is pretty much right out.

Note: The first "S" is for "See" not "Say".

shrug

Gwar! wrote:

skkipper wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

skkipper wrote:and we are saying a soul grinder equals a defiler. like a space wolves dreadnaught can be used as a space marine dreadnaught. they are the same model with the same weapon loadout with the same profile. a black reach dreadnaught used as a chaos dreadnaught same sort of thing.

No, it is like saying a Monolith is a Whirlwind.

is a monolith the same size as a whirlwind no
same weapons no

Does the Defiler have the EXACT same weapons as a Soul Grinder? Is it the EXACT same size down to the last Planck length?
No to both.

skkipper wrote:it is wsywig for the army and I am glad you don't live by me.

I'm glad I don't live near me too.

yep maul cannon( a cannon that comes out of a mouth yep) and multibarrel gun. both models have fully possible legs so you can make them almost any height.
you are wrong please move along

kirsanth wrote:If you actually have to explain what the model is, WYSIWYG is pretty much right out.

Note: The first "S" is for "See" not "Say".

shrug

I think you rolled a 18 for Intelligence

skkipper wrote:yep maul cannon( a cannon that comes out of a mouth yep) and multibarrel gun. both models have fully possible legs so you can make them almost any height.
you are wrong please move along

Hmm, that's weird, I was certain a Defiler had a Battle Cannon and a Reaper Autocannon, while the Defiler had a Harvester and a Mawcannon.

-Checks Codex-

Indeed, I remembered correctly.

As far as I am aware, they are not the same, in either function or Aesthetics.

Gwar! wrote:

Mars.Techpriest wrote:1) As proxy, sure, go ahead.

This, and only if I knew you well. If you pulled this at a random game I'd tell you to Go Buy a Soul grinder or not play. People wouldn't be happy me Proxying a Dreadnought as a Carnifex would they?

I don't get why people have such a problem Gwar's statement, it's perfectly reasonable. If the guy says to you up front "Hey, would you like to play a game? I'm playtesting a new list and I have some proxy models" and you say "sure" that's fine. But if someone asks you for a 1500 point game, you say "sure" and then during deployment they say "oh, by the way, 1/3 the points in my army are actually other things" I can see where the problem is.

That being said, I usually allow my opponents to proxy things because I don't have a perfectly WYSIWYG army (still haven't modeled a Gaze of Flame for my Necron Lord), but I do prefer it if the actual models can be on the field, even if they lack the appropriate options.

RobPro wrote:I don't get why people have such a problem Gwar's statement

My theory is jealousy, but that's obviously because I am an Arrogant donkey-cave.

how about this; since I too personally prefer the Soulgrinder model over the Defiler, what someone could do:

For a Soulgrinder -> Defiler
-Get a soulgrinder
-Get a battlecannon from any sprue that has one
-Get a reaper autocannon
-Place them in the proper location(s)

For a Defiler -> Soulgrinder:
-Don't play Gwar!
(it really is that simple)

Are you quite finished with your attack against my character?

I fail to see any attacks on your character, just a poster being, shall we say, "less than polite". Claiming to be a victim doesn't make you one.

Cry some more.

Rude and provocative. You have a history of insulting Gwar; keep the tone civil.

I really don't know why people are still arguing this. Point and counterpoint have been made, and really it comes down to opponent's or tournament organizer's permission. Why do you care what someone who you'll never play against thinks?