If the current "evil" Chaos gods are reflections of emotions (hate/war, death/disease, excess/pleasure). Then aren't there Gods and other beings in the warp that are an anti-version of the current Chaos gods that are of the postive emotions? Like for example a god of justice? Or even Gods that are based on ones from ancient pre-imperial times?

The old gods are probably all dead, destroyed by the Chaos gods or faded to nothingness due to everyone forgetting them.

However, I believe that the Chaos gods all have a 'good' side or multiple facets. If Khorne is a god of war, then surely he represents not only mindless slaughter, but honour and courage.

Yeah, the Chaos Gods each have their own "good sides". It's just that in a grim dark universe where there is only war, they don't get acknowleged that much.
Tzeentch is the god of Hope and Progress. Khorne is the god of Courage, Skill, and Honour. Slaanesh is the godess of love. Nurgle...ack, I forget what Nurgle is about. Ask Gwar!, I'm sure he knows the answer.

In the first and most ancient tomes known as the Realm of Chaos books, this was explained thusly:

Khorne also was a god of martial honour, courage and bravery.

Slaanesh also was a god of experiences, sensations and self perfection.

Tzeetch also was a god of hope, magic and intellect.

Nurgle also was a god of resilience, stoicism and defiance in the face of adversity.


Chaos, because your worth it...

Epsilon wrote:Ask Gwar!, I'm sure he knows the answer.

Nice

Nurgle I would see as rebirth. I mean, something dies and is then transformed into something useful. I guess.

Don't forget there are tons of other Powerful chaos entities, but those 4 are the most powerful.

Lets all not forget Malal, the 5th secret Anti-Chaos Chaos God, and the Star Child, who is as close to a Chaos God as anything else can be.

I'm gonna get all zen on you folks: The Chaos gods aren't evil, they just are....


seriously though, they're as evil as the zeitgeist of the universe. Which, admittedly, is like 80% evil anyway, I think they all represent things that aren't *necessarily* evil.

Khorne: space marines are the "good guys", but they kill and maim and slaughter 24/7....

Nurgle: he's as close to a god of creation as we're gonna get: things must die so the cycle of life may continue.

Tzeentch: change is neutral. things get better, things get worse, the change itself is neither.

Slaanesh: the god of sensations. good ones, bad ones, all of them.

Gwar! wrote:

Epsilon wrote:Ask Gwar!, I'm sure he knows the answer.

Nice

Lets all not forget Malal, the 5th secret Anti-Chaos Chaos God, and the Star Child, who is as close to a Chaos God as anything else can be.

I heard that Malal was either no longer cannon or was destoryed by the other chaos gods...

tigonesskay wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Epsilon wrote:Ask Gwar!, I'm sure he knows the answer.

Nice

Lets all not forget Malal, the 5th secret Anti-Chaos Chaos God, and the Star Child, who is as close to a Chaos God as anything else can be.

I heard that Malal was either no longer cannon or was destoryed by the other chaos gods...

Nah he is still cannon, just never mentioned cause of Copyright reasons

What if the Emperor was simply a manifestation of a 'Good Chaos God?'. That way every single Living Saint is another manifestation. It's just that the emperor was the biggest manifestation. All those rightous vibes given out by the battle sisters must be taking some form in the warp.

No, the Emperor was an amalgamation of thousands of shamans who all killed themselves together and reincarnated as one powerful soul because the warp was becoming turbulent and eating the shamans souls.

Aswell as all those shamens souls, all the good gods too. Eaten, by the warp.

tigonesskay wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Epsilon wrote:Ask Gwar!, I'm sure he knows the answer.

Nice

Lets all not forget Malal, the 5th secret Anti-Chaos Chaos God, and the Star Child, who is as close to a Chaos God as anything else can be.

I heard that Malal was either no longer cannon or was destoryed by the other chaos gods...

Nids got him

In the end, all gods are irrelevant. There is only Sly Marbo.

Cheese Elemental wrote:In the end, all gods are irrelevant. There is only Sly Marbo.

True statement. Also yarrick you can';t forget Yarrick, the reincarnation of Chuck Norris.

Fluffwise as noted the Big 4 are just the Big 4. There are a plethora of other warp spirits on the chaos front as well as warp space in general: the eldar "gods", orks Gods. Its my understanding the Ork gods are the real powers in warpspace-just ask the orks. We also know from fluff of the Emperor's tarot, various saints and other supranatural events predicated around the Emperor or Humanity leading to the theory that the Emperor is now himself a warp entity or his intellect is the warp and is powerful enough to have similar effects.

There's no reason fluffwise that other "Law" chaos beings are not present. They could be separate or alter egos of the Big 4.

Well one could consider Tyranids to be the "law" aspect of the Immaterium. When they arrive the Shadow in the Warp Nullifies the "movement" of the Immaterium, which is why communications and such are blocked.

I'd posit they are more raw power. The same effect would happen if you gathered a gazilian orks at one point in space-the raw psychic power is like a freighter moving therough the ocean throwing waves port and starboard.

By law I mean order (no pun intended), anti woo woo bad guy skulls lets kill all humans chaos. In actuality the Big 4 would have no interest in wiping out humanity like they seem bent on. Its literally killing off their food source. No emotion no chaos. Emo kids (eldar) rule again.

Frazzled wrote:I'd posit they are more raw power. The same effect would happen if you gathered a gazilian orks at one point in space-the raw psychic power is like a freighter moving therough the ocean throwing waves port and starboard.

By law I mean order (no pun intended), anti woo woo bad guy skulls lets kill all humans chaos. In actuality the Big 4 would have no interest in wiping out humanity like they seem bent on. Its literally killing off their food source. No emotion no chaos. Emo kids (eldar) rule again.

Chaos have never wanted to kill off humanity, they just want to kill off the Emperor. Necrons are the ones who want to kill all life, so that the warp dies.

And orks are different to nids. Orks Create excessive amounts of turbulence in the warp. The Nids kill all Turbulence. Imagine orks as a Hurricane while the Nids are the Horse Latitudes. You're still dead, just one way is different to the other

I'd proffer current fluff chaos is pretty killy killy. that really is GW's fault as was more balanced earlier.

Nurgle makes diseases to kill things, Khorne wants to kill everything, Slaanesh 's more beneficient pasttimes are not mentioned, Tzeenthc does well-who knows.
inevitably chaos incursions results in 80 gazillion people being sacrificed at an atlar or boiled down to a thimble full of essence that some some chaos marine uses as an after dinner drink. On the positive 7 marines led by sergeant Ogrebrain will save the system shortly thereafter.

Gwar! wrote:Well one could consider Tyranids to be the "law" aspect of the Immaterium. When they arrive the Shadow in the Warp Nullifies the "movement" of the Immaterium, which is why communications and such are blocked.

If Tyranids are anything then they are the embodiment of hunger. Undying, eternal hunger. Besides I thought that the warp didn't even register 'Nids?

I think that the 'Big 4' are the only beings strong enough to act on thier own. With their own armies. The other gods were either absorbed, or are passing thier will on through the mortal races (i.e. Gork/Mork for the Orks. Khaine/Laughing God for the Eldar, Emperor(or whatever drove him) for Humanity.)

Of the 5 known Chaos Gods. (Going with Gwar! on this. Malal is still canon.)

I would say Papa Nurgle is the one that could almost be considered "good". I mean, he is a nice guy, he has a whole planet that dances all day.

He just wants to experiment on you.....

Planet that dance all day?

And yes he his nice. In a stalker, slavering Grima Wormtounge kind of way...(look at back of deamon codex for story of Isha)

Anyway, his personal hygene is dreadfull.

IMO Chaos Gods are evil, they were created from the raw evil emotions of living things, such as humans, eldar, etc. killing each other and waging war created Khorne then the urge to do this increased ten fold. Same with the others Slaanesh from the races constant pursuit of unattainable perfection, seeking of pleasures, etc. Tzeetch the the unquenchable thirst for knowledge cause of course "knowledge is power" and thus races were greedy with power unearthing long lost knowledge and losing themselves in the pursuit of knowledge creating yours truly Tzeecth. Nurgle dont know how people would create him from there emotions, maybe example is people knowing they have a disease and spreading it so they wont be alone? lol But Nurgle seems kinda like an ass infecting you and making you feel pain till you beg him to it away and force you to join him or back with the pain. Even tho living beings created them, there actions are still evil sacrificing billions for a freakin throne, doing unmentionable things to peps that you dont even know that well, makin peps minds explode and havin daemons pop out of em doesn't sound like it feels good either. Of course everyone's definition of whats evil is different then the next guys or gals.

Lord Chiasson wrote:IMO Chaos Gods are evil

Khorn is also made in part from Courage and Honour. Tzeentch is also in part made from curiosity and the thirst for Knowledge. Nurgle is in part made from the desire of rebirth. Slaanesh is in part made from the emotions of love.

Chaos gods are not all evil

Ok so not 'all' evil.
70/30 split? Either way the topic IIRC ws goodun's yes?
Mercy? (HERESY) Pride? Humility?

Justice?
Peace? (That god died off a while ago)
Friendship?
Jokes? (Eldar laughing god)
Then again all but justice would be kind of wimpy gods.

Hmmmmmm...Tyranids could be the god of hunger! NOM NOM NOM!!!!

Gwar! wrote:

Lord Chiasson wrote:IMO Chaos Gods are evil

Khorn is also made in part from Courage and Honour. Tzeentch is also in part made from curiosity and the thirst for Knowledge. Nurgle is in part made from the desire of rebirth. Slaanesh is in part made from the emotions of love.

Chaos gods are not all evil

Yeah, but lets face it. They always wake up on the wrong side of the warp.....

Chaos gods arn't evil nag, nag, nag...

Of course they're fething evil. You don't get much more evil then the chaos gods.

Im not sure all Chaos gods are evil, but 4 big ones(Khorne, Slanessh, Tzeecth and Nurgle) are.I mean having your followers make sacrifices to you with people who have no idea who you are and or spreading your diseases when they don't want em, sounds kinda evil to me. Forcing your will on another without consent= evil in my book. But again whats evil and whats not is entirely in the eye of the beholder tho. Whats evil to me could be perfectly normal to the next guy or gal

Emperors Faithful wrote:Chaos gods arn't evil nag, nag, nag...

Of course they're fething evil. You don't get much more evil then the chaos gods.

You seem conviced.

Explain why "You don't get much more evil then the chaos gods" please.

Ummmmm...
Well Gwar I really had to think about that...

Let's see...Sluaghtering thousands of innocents (term used loosely) for a laugh, corrupting and demoralising good people (again used loosely) for a laugh. Having their followers kill/rape/infect/corrupt thier victims?

Does "Pure Evil" ring any bells there?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Ummmmm...
Well Gwar I really had to think about that...

Let's see...Sluaghtering thousands of innocents (term used loosely) for a laugh, corrupting and demoralising good people (again used loosely) for a laugh. Having their followers kill/rape/infect/corrupt thier victims?

Does "Pure Evil" ring any bells there?

Sounds just like the Imperium to me.

You also seem to have glossed over the other aspects of the Chaos gods we mentioned in this thread.

Isn't the point that no one truly believes they are evil, that it is all relative. I am pretty sure all the Chaos Legions out there are positive they are doing a good thing.

Fearspect wrote:Isn't the point that no one truly believes they are evil, that it is all relative. I am pretty sure all the Chaos Legions out there are positive they are doing a good thing.

True, Good and Evil are meaningless terms and vary from place to place.
To the Loyalists of the First Founding, the Traitor legions are scum of the worst kind, cowards, oath breakers and betrayers, corrupted by their own greed.
To the Traitor Legions, the First Founding legions are nothing but pathetic Lapdogs to a liar and false God, one who would unite the Galaxy in the Name of Truth only to pervert it for his own lust for power.

After all, the Chaos powers claimed to Horus that the Emperor tricked them and was planing to destoy them and that they had no desire to take over the Material World. I actually see some truth in this, as the Chaos powers NEED the material world to sustain them. Without humans and stuff providing Emotions, they are powerless. Destroying the Galaxy would just result in them dying as well.

The notion of good and evil is far from meaningless.

A fictional, over-the-top notion of good and evil however is.

It's very different killing thousands for your survival. The Imperium believes it is doing good.
Chaos and Chaos Marines are after thier own ends, regardless of morals.
The chaos gods and chaos space marines kill, maim and torture with a certain unerving glee.

Emperors Faithful wrote:It's very different killing thousands for your survival. The Imperium believes it is doing good.
Chaos and Chaos Marines are after thier own ends, regardless of morals.
The chaos gods and chaos space marines kill, maim and torture with a certain unerving glee.

You claim they do it for no reason. How do you know they don't have a legitimate reason for it?

Does fun count as a legitimate reason? Or becuase it suits thier own DIABOLICAL, selfish ends?

Why does the Imperium shoot its own soldiers for sucking and blow up planets with billions of innocents and a single heretic on them?

Chaos Marines think they're doing the right thing.

Khorne's followers can't help their bloodlust. They're ALWAYS ANGRY, ALL THE TIME!

Nurgle's followers are happy all the time. It's true.

Slaanesh's followers are experimenting. Just like teenagers.

Tzeentch plots because it's pretty fething boring in the warp.

Chaos marines think they're doing the good thing? Do you seriously believe that? Of course SOME renegades may feel betrayed by the Imperium (those that couldn't hack it).

But for the most part, Chaos Marinz are selfish, self-serving fiends. They have no feelings for others, no love, no emotion short of hate, fury and lust. How can these be considered good things?

And would you say burning worlds in the name of an Emperor who doesn't actually talk to anyone and trying to destroy the alien races rather than make peace with them is a good thing?

At least Chaos Marines have the sense to try and make allies. See: Dawn of War. The Alpha Legion allied with the Orks on Tartarus, giving them weapons and fighting in exchange for cover.

The Imperium is trying to survive. Can you honestly say that if the Imperium was anymore lenient it would survive? No.

Anyway, Humanity HAD probably tried to make peace with Xenos. (like Tau). But how do you think that worked out? Orks + Peace? No way. Humanity had been enslaved galaxy wide by a variety of chaos and xenos. (Before the Crusades). Humanity learnt from it's mistakes, like the Tau soon will if they want to survive. It is a harsh galaxy after all.

Anyway, the Orks were only a means to an end. They had no feelings for them. (not that anyone could)


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IG and Spahz Marinz ally with Eldar (and even Tau) quite often. In fact the Whole Battlefleet gothic, and 13th Crusade had both been resited by a alliance of Eldar and Imperials. This was more than mere bribery, they were organised in thier efforts together. (It wouldn't last forever though)

Cheese Elemental wrote:And would you say burning worlds in the name of an Emperor who doesn't actually talk to anyone and trying to destroy the alien races rather than make peace with them is a good thing?

Just the needed "cleanse and purify" mission to secure mankind from the xenos threat.
Its only a job. Nothing personal.

Cheese Elemental wrote:At least Chaos Marines have the sense to try and make allies. See: Dawn of War. The Alpha Legion allied with the Orks on Tartarus, giving them weapons and fighting in exchange for cover.

So green meatshields do count as "allies"? Are those so-called "marines" sunk so low to accept orkzez as equals?

I had a feeling people were going to bring up the Imperium, but this thread I thought was if the "Chaos Gods" were good, not if The Imperium is evil which IMO it is but I keep out for the hope that Big E will wake up and bring it back to the badasser of the Great Crusade . Anyways back on topic, its true no matter how we argue it some will think there good others evil and others just dont care lol. I could argue tho that they are created from the negative/evil emotions of all living things thus themselves being born evil i mean cant get more evil/negative then being born from the very thoughts and emotions that are evil or negative, me saying that of course is based on today's standards of what morals are and what is negative or positive for the majority of people on earth.

Ummm, We were actually trying to define if there IS evil. Which IMO there is. It's is easily linkable to whether or not the Imperium is evil (as many mortal thoughts are from there). But we WERE kind of getting off track.

Either Chaos gods are evil, or there IS no evil! IMO there is, so therefore the Chaos Gods are evil "laughter of the Thirsting Gods"?

Most of what the Imperium knows about Chaos comes from experiences on the frontline, and the Imperium are far too stupid to take captives and question them.

And if Chaos is evil, and it still has enough support to exist, then the Imperium clearly IS evil. Do you think Khorne doesn't like a good Exterminatus?

Well, no not really. He'd prefer to slit each and everyone of those peoples throats himself. Exterminatus is mercifully quick, and only done out of necessity, not glee.

Oh lol well then yeah id have to agree there is evil, and The Chaos Gods they be evil . The Imperium and Chaos are evil, The Imperium is just the lesser of two evils, Imperium's reasoing for doing all its evil stuff=survival, Choas Gods reasoning behind doing evil stuff= bigger throne of skulls? more pleasure? spreading diesese that bring pain and suffering? killin for knowledge? and all the while trying to kill each other for ultimate control, which can never happen so whats the fin point?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, no not really. He'd prefer to slit each and everyone of those peoples throats himself. Exterminatus is mercifully quick, and only done out of necessity, not glee.

Necessity? Is is necessary to blow up a planet to kill one heretic when he could easily be tracked down and killed?

And Khorne doesn't believe in dishonourable killing. His servants wouldn't kill someone who's completely helpless.

And seriously, drop the fanboy attitude... this is the internet. It's just dorky to RP like that in a thread.

tigonesskay wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Epsilon wrote:Ask Gwar!, I'm sure he knows the answer.

Nice

Lets all not forget Malal, the 5th secret Anti-Chaos Chaos God, and the Star Child, who is as close to a Chaos God as anything else can be.

I heard that Malal was either no longer cannon or was destoryed by the other chaos gods...

He lost to tzeentch in a game of chess....

It could turn out that the chaos gods aren't gods at all but just merely powerful thoughtforms.... and the old gods are hiding out in the warp somewhere. It's impossible that every single enity in the warp is bad....

tigonesskay wrote:It could turn out that the chaos gods aren't gods at all but just merely powerful thoughtforms.... and the old gods are hiding out in the warp somewhere. It's impossible that every single enity in the warp is bad....

The Term "Chaos God" has always been a Shorthand for "The 4 most Powerful Warp Beings"

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, no not really. He'd prefer to slit each and everyone of those peoples throats himself. Exterminatus is mercifully quick, and only done out of necessity, not glee.

Necessity? Is is necessary to blow up a planet to kill one heretic when he could easily be tracked down and killed?

And Khorne doesn't believe in dishonourable killing. His servants wouldn't kill someone who's completely helpless.

And seriously, drop the fanboy attitude... this is the internet. It's just dorky to RP like that in a thread.

So you're saying that if bloodletters/crushers/thirsters suddenly materialised in a hive full of men, women and children they WOULDN'T all rip to them shreds? No way!

And the Imperium would never blow up a planet to kill one heretic. I admit it wouldn't be out of compassion for the people. But a planet is just too darn valuable.

The BIG difference is that Imperium Killing=Survival (there IS NO other option), while Chaos Killing=Fun.

Who were you calling a fanboy? (Seriously: Explain RP thing) No need to get so worked up...


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tigonesskay wrote:It could turn out that the chaos gods aren't gods at all but just merely powerful thoughtforms.... and the old gods are hiding out in the warp somewhere. It's impossible that every single enity in the warp is bad....

I agree with you tigonesskay, there would be some "good" chaos being. But the main 4 gods, Tzeench, Khorne, Nurgle and Slaneesh and all their armies are definitley evil.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, no not really. He'd prefer to slit each and everyone of those peoples throats himself. Exterminatus is mercifully quick, and only done out of necessity, not glee.

Necessity? Is is necessary to blow up a planet to kill one heretic when he could easily be tracked down and killed?

And Khorne doesn't believe in dishonourable killing. His servants wouldn't kill someone who's completely helpless.

And seriously, drop the fanboy attitude... this is the internet. It's just dorky to RP like that in a thread.

So you're saying that if bloodletters/crushers/thirsters suddenly materialised in a hive full of men, women and children they WOULDN'T all rip to them shreds? No way!

And the Imperium would never blow up a planet to kill one heretic. I admit it wouldn't be out of compassion for the people. But a planet is just too darn valuable.

The BIG difference is that Imperium Killing=Survival (there IS NO other option), while Chaos Killing=Fun.

The predator aliens had more honor than the chaos gods....

Ok, i knew very little of the chaos gods before i started 40k (friend talks about it too much) But even then i knew that some part of them had to be a "good side" just like everything else, look at everything about 40k, it all has a little good, a little evil, to make that sense of neutrality, gw designed fluff to make sure no one race could be called "the good guys" or "the bad guys," that way there is no bias as to what race to buy beforehand, so bite me, Gwar! is right, just like he always has been, always will be.

bigdaddydreadnought wrote:Gwar! is right, just like he always has been, always will be.

Glad to see some people make sense around these parts

And the Only race that could be considered "Good Guys" were the tau when they were new (and thus were pushed to sell). Now that we know they are all Mind Controlling evil Space Nazis with Acid Mines (cf. Vraks), they are back to the Neutral position

So what? Even the most vile people have a good side, doesn't stop them from being bad. But I would say that the Evil aspects far outwiegh the good aspects for the Chaos gods.

Where is the Justice? The desire for peace? Morality? Self-Control? where are these aspects in the chaos gods?


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Forgot: Kindness & Love (as in love love, not slaneesh "I will have you" love)

Morality? The Imperium send millions of guardsmen to die each day.

Kindness? The Imperium kill anyone who doesn't worship the Emperor.

And of course Khorne's daemons kill senselessly. He's a god of war. All his daemons exist to do is fight. Not for their own evil gain, but just because it's what they've always done. Humanity created them, it's their fault.

First of all I never said that Kindness was a big thing in the Imperium. I was saying that kindness was not an aspect of chaos gods. Also, humanity alone did not create Khorne (mortals did).

Anyway, the Imperium couldn't AFFORD to blow up a whole planet to get a single heretic. That's what inquisitors are for. And remember, inquisitors vary hugely from each other.

As for morality, the Imperium realizes that to let the evil forces destroy the whole of humanity would be more Immoral than to send soldiers to fight for them.

And don't forget that individual humans could be kind-hearted, and peaceful. It is sad that such extreme measures must be taken, but what is the alternative?

The big argument for the Imperium is that it is by far the Lesser of Two evils.

Chaos isn't trying to destroy humanity. If humans become extinct, Chaos ceases to exist. Why do you think they fight the Tyranids and Necrons?

Emperors Faithful wrote:First of all I never said that Kindness was a big thing in the Imperium. I was saying that kindness was not an aspect of chaos gods. Also, humanity alone did not create Khorne (mortals did).

Actually, Khorne and Nurgle are entirely due to Human Activity in the Warp. Tzeentch is tricky (some say he was created by the Old Ones to kill the necrons) but he was certainly Strengthened by Humanity.

Slaanesh was Eldar bumping Uglies.

No, Khorne would be almost entirely due to the Warlust of the Orks first and foremost wouldn't it? Every race has some degree of rage, even Tau (Farsight vs Orks).
Didn't the Warp Gods exist far before humanity arose?

And by the way cheesy, are you suggesting that the deamons are fighting FOR humanity? I can imagine Tzeench thinking up something crafty like that but I don't see such foresight in the other gods.

Emperors Faithful wrote:No, Khorne would be almost entirely due to the Warlust of the Orks first and foremost wouldn't it? Every race has some degree of rage, even Tau (Farsight vs Orks).
Didn't the Warp Gods exist far before humanity arose?

And by the way cheesy, are you suggesting that the deamons are fighting FOR humanity? I can imagine Tzeench thinking up something crafty like that but I don't see such foresight in the other gods.

HAHAAH! Yes, because we all know the Orks didn't create their own warp entities from their gestalt psychic resonance... Oh wait.

And no, they didn't exist pre humanity.

And Cheese is not Suggesting they fight for humanity at all. What he is saying that Killing Humanity would be like cutting off your own leg to cure a stubbed toe. Daemons are created, and feed on, human emotions. Kill all the humans... what happens? Daemons die out, Necrons and Tyranids Win.

That may be true,
but is anyone but Tzeench aware of this? As I see it deamons are doing a fine job killing off humanity on thier own.

Anyway, I was just saying that deamons aren't made frome 'purely' human emotion.

Emperors Faithful wrote:That may be true,
but is anyone but Tzeench aware of this? As I see it deamons are doing a fine job killing off humanity on thier own.

Anyway, I was just saying that deamons aren't made frome 'purely' human emotion.

Humanity has the largest "presence" in the warp reletive to their psycic ability. Not to mention Humans outnumber every other warp projecting race (except the orks who were engineered to create their own gestalt entities). As such, nearly all of the Daemons and such in "present" 40k come from Human Activity.

Well where does it say that?
Though big, the Imperium is but a fraction of the galaxy.
(And even smaller compared to universe.) Do deamons link and appear in OTHER galaxies?

So could Luke end up versing a Bloodthirster (lol, I would love to see that)

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well where does it say that?
Though big, the Imperium is but a fraction of the galaxy.
(And even smaller compared to universe.) Do deamons link and appear in OTHER galaxies?

So could Luke end up versing a Bloodthirster (lol, I would love to see that)

Multiple old Fluff Sources
They are the largest Empire, and have the biggest population, more than the Eldar and Tau combined, especially if you include the Billions of Slaves and stuff on EoT worlds.
Nothing suggests Daemons or even the warp extend beyond the Galaxy.

hmmm, it is the biggest HUMAN empire, but does the 40k bible claim that the Imperium is the BIGGEST empire? Please keep in mind that most of the galaxy has been explored.

Thats what I was trying to say, I know Humans created the Daemons and all but from there evil emotions,thus making them evil in birthright. They are created from evil thoughts an actions aren't they?

Emperors Faithful wrote:hmmm, it is the biggest HUMAN empire, but does the 40k bible claim that the Imperium is the BIGGEST empire? Please keep in mind that most of the galaxy has been explored.

Show me a Non ork (as we have already established they do not affect the Warp outside Gork and Mork) empire that is bigger then.


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Lord Chiasson wrote:Thats what I was trying to say, I know Humans created the Daemons and all but from there evil emotions,thus making them evil in birthright. They are created from evil thoughts an actions aren't they?

No, they are created from any emotion, not just evil ones

Oh ok my bad, all emotion


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But also I would have to say if there is no way for the matrial universe to actually kill the Chaos Gods then why do they even bother messing with it? I mean aslong as Humans and all living things are alive they are too, they only should be killing Necrons who want to end all life and thats about it. I mean the only reason there doing what there doing is to cause despair and pain so they can get there way, domination of the galaxy right?

Humans didn't CREATE deamons. Deamons existed before humans. Waaaaaay before.

And I'm saying that the Chaos Gods are predominantly evil. You'd have to be to do the things they do...

Gwar, the eldar had a faaaaar bigger empire than the humans.

P.S. Edit: I meant to say that most of the galaxy hasN'T been explored..

protip: Had

What I am saying now is that while the first Daemons came about way before Humanity or the Eldar, in "Current" 40k it is because of Humanity the forces of Chaos are getting Stronger.

True, So could Humanity and all living things exist without the Chaos Gods?

Lord Chiasson wrote:True, So could Humanity and all living things exist without the Chaos Gods?

Living things by there definition have an imprint in the warp. Without the warp their would be no souls and no life.

So Tyranids have souls now? There would be life, sentient life is another matter.

I understand that but I mean the wrap itself could still be there if the Chaos Gods were destroyed or something right? I know this is off subject but im trying to figure out if that was there reasoning behind offing The Emperor cause I mean The Emperor was looking to the survival of humanity and could have destroyed the Chaos Gods and the Warp still be there? And The Chaos Gods could only destroy the Emperor to lead Humanity into a path better suited for the Chaos Gods making them stronger, but could not destroy humanity for it was its greatest supply of its power?

Ah, but the question is are the chaos gods even aware of this?

Tzeench might be, but the other? Porbably not...

And if the balance between the gods were broken who can say what would happen?

Gwar! wrote:

Lord Chiasson wrote:True, So could Humanity and all living things exist without the Chaos Gods?

Living things by there definition have an imprint in the warp. Without the warp their would be no souls and no life.

So those humans with the 'Pariah gene' are not alive?

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Lord Chiasson wrote:True, So could Humanity and all living things exist without the Chaos Gods?

Living things by there definition have an imprint in the warp. Without the warp their would be no souls and no life.

So those humans with the 'Pariah gene' are not alive?

Nope. They Live, but are not "Alive"

what about the rest of the universe? Do the chaos gods infulence reach everywhere else? There might be "other Gods" in another part of the universe that aren't so...chaosy

hmmm, good point.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Lord Chiasson wrote:True, So could Humanity and all living things exist without the Chaos Gods?

Living things by there definition have an imprint in the warp. Without the warp their would be no souls and no life.

So those humans with the 'Pariah gene' are not alive?

They are said to have no souls.

Tau have no presence in the warp either. That could be because of other reasons though.....

No wait, necrons DO have souls!
There was this kind of deamon pet of Abbadon, and it commented (in some White Dwarf) that until its summoning it had been feeding on necron souls. But it kind of compared it to looking hrough garbage. So necrons souls are a poor mans soul.

The Necrons don't have souls anymore. The souls that the daemon was feeding on would be the souls of the long-dead Necrontyr.

hmmm, but don't the necrons have those souls? They just become more and more bland and enslaved over time don't they?

What? No... the majority of Necrons are completely soulless. Only a few retain some measure of their own minds.

Flayed Ones are flying rodent gak insane psychopaths.
Immortals kept some because they were the first Necrons.
Pariahs are half human. They still have their minds.
Necron Lords have full intelligence. One of them even has the power of speech in DoW: Soulstorm.

Cheese Elemental wrote:One of them even has the power of speech in DoW: Soulstorm.

Ever mention Soulstorm again and you get an asswhoopin

Soulstorm is a wonderful game that I accept as fully canonical. It has the best voice acting I've ever heard in a game and is perfectly balanced.

Dreadwinter wrote:Tau have no presence in the warp either. That could be because of other reasons though.....

They just have a very minor warp presence.

They're not soulless or anything, just not as attuned to the warp as humans and eldar are.

hmmm, THAT explains why Khorne doesn't throw flowers and give high-5's to everyone!

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:Tau have no presence in the warp either. That could be because of other reasons though.....

They just have a very minor warp presence.

They're not soulless or anything, just not as attuned to the warp as humans and eldar are.

From the explanation I was givin, I was to understand that they are a relatively young race unattached to the Old Ones in any way, so they have yet to develop psychic abilities.

Or maybe it is the Ethereals keeping them from getting into the Warp. Never know really.

Do you think the Etherals are control-freaks or really have everyones best interests at heart?

Ethereals are mutant clones of Stalin and Mao Tse Tung that have come from the far reaches of the universe to spread communism to the galaxy.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Chaos isn't trying to destroy humanity. If humans become extinct, Chaos ceases to exist. Why do you think they fight the Tyranids and Necrons?

If all sentient life became extinct (not just humans), Chaos ceases to exist. Frankly, I don't think that chaos gives a damn whether humanity is wiped out. If all of humanity was wiped out, but orks and eldar remained there would still be chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Soulstorm is a wonderful game that I accept as fully canonical. It has the best voice acting I've ever heard in a game and is perfectly balanced.

Although the narrator sometimes has a wierd accent: "spesh Meshines"

I can't believe that this thread got to four pages without mentioning something like Malaal or one of the other discontinued/minor Chaos gods.

Whether or not you count the old lesser Chaos gods, all of the forces of Chaos are "evil" because they pursue their agendas without regard to the interests of the "good guys". A Chaos god of Justice might go around killing muderers, jaywalkers and people who talk too loud at the library because they broke a rule. a Chaos god of wealth might go out and make all of the farming peasants wealthy, and that would be great until they ran out of food because all of the farmers in the area had stopped growing food. Even the Chaos god of killing Chaos guys is a problem because his followers don't care about defending people from anything else, or whether there's any collatoral damage, like a destroyed city, during the fight.

solkan wrote:I can't believe that this thread got to four pages without mentioning something like Malaal or one of the other discontinued/minor Chaos gods

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/243437.page#766272

5th post, by me no less

Well, I have to ask, Slaneesh is the Prince/God of excess right?
So, s/he doesn't exactly include LOVE in s/his repetoire, does he?
So slaneesh is just gross, right?

Gwar! wrote:

solkan wrote:I can't believe that this thread got to four pages without mentioning something like Malaal or one of the other discontinued/minor Chaos gods

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/243437.page#766272

5th post, by me no less

Then again by me on the 20th post, reinforcing what Gwar! said.....

then again on the 7608th post. Just kidding. Anyway, where did you guys hear about these new gods?

Emperors Faithful wrote:then again on the 7608th post. Just kidding. Anyway, where did you guys hear about these new gods?

They aren't new

you know what I mean Gwar. (cheeky bugger you.)
They weren't in any codexes or rulebooks on 'other' chaos gods.

They're mentioned back in the old (2nd ed i think) Chaos dexes. Nowdays you gotta look in sites like Lexicanum and such...

All Tau are naive and evil...except Farsight, he's jamming.

okay, don't see how naive=evil.

But that is interesting. Malaal and the others...what are they gods of?

Emperors Faithful wrote:okay, don't see how naive=evil.

But that is interesting. Malaal and the others...what are they gods of?

Malal is the Anti-Chaos Chaos God

If enough people focus on one idea or emotion (e.g. compassion) will that single "thought" become "a god" in the warp?

@Gwar: So malaal is the god of order? Or is he just good?

@tigonesskay: It would be pretty hard, and impossible to really organise. I mean, billions of people praising the emperor, has that paid off? (serios question)

Emperors Faithful wrote: It would be pretty hard, and impossible to really organise. I mean, billions of people praising the emperor, has that paid off? (serios question)

not @ me but I think yes; it's held mankind together as best as might be expected

Malal is not the anti-Chaos god, he's the god of destruction. He basically wants to beat gak up, let it get fixed, and beat it up again. Even if it's Chaos.

His Chaos Space Marine followers are near the back of the previous CSM codex. They're the black and white ones called the Sons of Malice.

Manchu wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote: It would be pretty hard, and impossible to really organise. I mean, billions of people praising the emperor, has that paid off? (serios question)

not @ me but I think yes; it's held mankind together as best as might be expected

I agree with you, it has held the Imperium together, but has it really born a chaos god in the warp? A god of deliverance? Salvation?

Cheese Elemental wrote:Malal is not the anti-Chaos god, he's the god of destruction. He basically wants to beat gak up, let it get fixed, and beat it up again. Even if it's Chaos.

His Chaos Space Marine followers are near the back of the previous CSM codex. They're the black and white ones called the Sons of Malice.

Malal is the God of Chaos turned upon itself.

So pretty much the Anti-Chaos Chaos God.

Genraly from what I've read that all parts of peoples emotions go into the warp, its jsut that the negative ones are stronger and are so manafested in the four stranger chaos Gods. its genraly indicated that most of the other Gods have their own mafestations in the warp.

(Yes I know about the Shamy thing) Genraly I've always thought that the Emporer was the manafestation of of the othe friendly Warp entities. The emporer being kind of like a Demon Prince created by this entitie. Or a human posesed by one. (This Fits with the Shamy bit if you want it to, Chaos worshipers make sacrifices to summen deoms and get possed, so the shamys deaths acted in the same way.)

TheAlmightyPillock wrote:Genraly from what I've read that all parts of peoples emotions go into the warp, its jsut that the negative ones are stronger and are so manafested in the four stranger chaos Gods. its genraly indicated that most of the other Gods have their own mafestations in the warp.

(Yes I know about the Shamy thing) Genraly I've always thought that the Emporer was the manafestation of of the othe friendly Warp entities. The emporer being kind of like a Demon Prince created by this entitie. Or a human posesed by one. (This Fits with the Shamy bit if you want it to, Chaos worshipers make sacrifices to summen deoms and get possed, so the shamys deaths acted in the same way.)

If a group of fanatically God-emperor followers do the same thing like the shamans did will they repeat the same event?

Maby thats how you get Saints like that SoB one.

But generally I dont like the shamy sacrifice peace of fluff. The Xenophology one that he is a reincarnated Old one is a bit better but id proffer if the fluff jsut left it shrouded in mistory so that no ones theory are right.

O and also thats what some of the Inquisition do, a slightly radical cult beleavet hat the Emporor is a spirit and so bissy themselves by looking for the perfect host for him so that he can be reborn.

heres a weird thought. i read somewhere that the chaos gods are creations of humainitys thoughts? you know anger, lust, etc etc. surely then, if theyre manifestations of this, if everyone in humanity said "actually i DONT believe in you" and turned their backs on them, would they suddenly dissapeer in a big poof! ?

It doesn't work for Nurgle though.

*People wishing for health and healing - yes.
*People wishing for disease? er...no.

Every other chaos god is the embodiment of human emotions or desires. By all rights Nurgle should be represented by a giant Dr. McCoy, unleashing his healing minions into the warp and real space. It doesn't fit otherwise.

ghosty wrote:heres a weird thought. i read somewhere that the chaos gods are creations of humainitys thoughts? you know anger, lust, etc etc. surely then, if theyre manifestations of this, if everyone in humanity said "actually i DONT believe in you" and turned their backs on them, would they suddenly dissapeer in a big poof! ?

No, most people don't believe in them anyway.

They'd have to give up the core emotions the gods are created from.

They're made from emotions, not wishes.

Dorothy clicking her heels 3 times is not gonna stop a bloodthirster ripping her apart and feeding her to Toto.

(Also, in the deamon codex, there is a secret vualt of Tzeench that has only ever been acessed once. By a little girl and her little black dog, the Gatekeepr said she cheated the test or something to get in)

...OMG! DOROTHY IS A WARP GOD!!!!!!!

Knowing Tzeentch, I would guess cheating would be the only way to win.

Wouldn't he include cheating in his plans?

These gods would probably be considered the Old Ones, and there all dead. So there you have it.