Can Asurmen use defend if he is leading a squad aren't Dire Avengers? Conversely, can he lead the squad in a bladestorm? For example, if he was leading guardians, can they benefit from Defend and Bladestorm? Both powers merely refer to the "Exarch's" unit, not to Dire Avengers specifically. Also, Asurmen is technically not an "Exarch", so if you want to get super technical I guess, his Exarch Powers do nothing!

Discuss!

No Phoenix Lord can join an aspect squad that is not of their aspect, so no, Asurmen can't lead a guardan squad - or make them bladestorm (PS rules C:E, p54).
Exarch skills can only benefit their squads (of aspect warriors).

I'm going to have to go the other way on this one. The rules state that a phoenix Lord cannot join an ASPECT WARRIOR squad that is not of his own. So I think guardians, wraithguard, rangers, and harlis, not be aspect warriors, could be joined. What a nasty idea. Ewwwwwww...

Gobstomp420 wrote:I'm going to have to go the other way on this one. The rules state that a phoenix Lord cannot join an ASPECT WARRIOR squad that is not of his own. So I think guardians, wraithguard, rangers, and harlis, not be aspect warriors, could be joined. What a nasty idea. Ewwwwwww...

Lets not forget to expand that idea to they can join every thing other than their own Aspect warriors. ( parody on can guards use orders on enemy phase )

Unfortunately, the descriptions of the exarch powers specifically mention the relevent aspects in their wording: 'The Exarch and his/her squad'.

Boo sucks :(

How could you get a phonix lord and not put them in thier aspect squad? That's just...CRUEL!

That's like...I don't know! Something mean and unnatural.

The FAQ clarifies that the exarch powers only work for aspect squads. However, the Phoenix Lord is free to join any non-aspect squads... and I don't see much wrong with it really.

I add Maugan Ra to a unit of pathfinders all the time.

Well, yeah but-but...(sob)

Anyway, with an assualt executioner Maugun Ra is more of a grim, stand alone character.

Yeah, generally he just starts with some pathfinders, togive them a little more durability, then he splits off on his own to take out tanks.

Maugan Ra is an absolute gun when you walk him up the field shooting everything to death and then charging peple with S5 power weapon and WS7

Squig_herder wrote:Maugan Ra is an absolute gun when you walk him up the field shooting everything to death and then charging peple with S5 power weapon and WS7

It's a str 6 power weapon His greatest weakness is the lack of an invulnerable save. Guess what happens when he gets into a fight with a SM captain with storm shield and relic blade?

Thats is abit of a killer, i would have thought that they all would atleast recieve a 6++ save but maybe next time round?

They are still a super force, everytime I use one, they perform above everyone else (as they bloody should) and i will continue to use them on and off (more on though) in both friendlies and torni environments

My Eldar opponent bring Maugan every game he plays, and he DOES not use him to his potential at all. He's normally dead by turn two.

Tactics for keeping PLs alive then? Other than running them with a squad?

Tek wrote:My Eldar opponent bring Maugan every game he plays, and he DOES not use him to his potential at all. He's normally dead by turn two.

Tactics for keeping PLs alive then? Other than running them with a squad?

Aside from starting him with pathfinders, I will often run him by himself, in or out of cover, and just sort of use him as a sacrifice. The trick is to maximize the amount of effort your opponent has to spend in order to kill him, because this helps to keep the rest of your army alive.

Start in a serpent and then jump out and go from CC to cover and back to CC

So to bring this back on topic;

The Exarch powers say "The Exarch and his squad." Well, if A Phoenix lord is joined to a unit of Guardians, are the guardians not "His squad?".

Generally, I was thinking of attaching Asurmen to a Seer Council, and then I was wondering if his Defend power would work for the entire unit. So far, RAW seems to indicate that it does, since the the entry only refers to "His unit", which for an independent character is any unit he joins.

However, the powers also say "The Exarch", and a Phoenix Lord is not an exarch, so would somebody claim that their powers don't work at all?

whitedragon wrote:So to bring this back on topic;

The Exarch powers say "The Exarch and his squad." Well, if A Phoenix lord is joined to a unit of Guardians, are the guardians not "His squad?".

READ THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING. This was already addressed by wilydstyle:

willydstyle wrote:The FAQ clarifies that the exarch powers only work for aspect squads. However, the Phoenix Lord is free to join any non-aspect squads.

Gwar! wrote:

whitedragon wrote:So to bring this back on topic;

The Exarch powers say "The Exarch and his squad." Well, if A Phoenix lord is joined to a unit of Guardians, are the guardians not "His squad?".

READ THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING. This was already addressed by wilydstyle:

willydstyle wrote:The FAQ clarifies that the exarch powers only work for aspect squads. However, the Phoenix Lord is free to join any non-aspect squads.

Uhm...excuse me for skimming? Take a forum chill pill? Thanks for the FAQ reference willyd.

yea... i kinda agree that that was uncalled for gwar... you need to stop arguing with people in other threads... you're getting stressed out!

we like a non-stressed gwar!

Gobstomp420 wrote:I'm going to have to go the other way on this one. The rules state that a phoenix Lord cannot join an ASPECT WARRIOR squad that is not of his own. So I think guardians, wraithguard, rangers, and harlis, not be aspect warriors, could be joined. What a nasty idea. Ewwwwwww...

Join yes... buff them with their powers, no. So if the PL has powers that only work on themselves, like Maugan Ra, then no worries. No Bladestorming Guardian squad, although they can bask in Asurman's glory.

Homer

their exarch powers work on their relevant aspects, but no other squads, although it would help if they would

Nearly right but acute vision and stealth is pasted on.

Maugan Ra with your snipers at the start of game with night fighting game.

or

Karandras with any warlock and conceal. (yay 4+ cover save)

Tri wrote:Nearly right but acute vision and stealth is pasted on.

Maugan Ra with your snipers at the start of game with night fighting game.

or

Karandras with any warlock and conceal. (yay 4+ cover save)

I believe the codex says that karandras passes his stealth rule on to specifically, "any unit of striking scorpions he joins", which means even though his own cover save in the seer squad would be improved to four, you have to use the majority save, which would be the rest of the squads' 5.

Doesn't matter he use the universal Stealth rule which effects any unit he's part of. "This ability is conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins" is missing the Key word "only" You can argue RAI all day but they've nether errata or FAQ it to only work on Scorpions.

Also you have to use the majority Toughness not Save. Each model make the best save available to them. Normally all models in the unit have the same cover save because the unit as a whole must be in cover, but the addition of wargear allows the individual a cover save different to the rest of the squad.

For example a Big Mek with a Kustom force field would give the unit he's with (and any unit with a model within 6") a 5+ cover save, but A Warboss on a bike within said unit would also benefit from the "Exhaust Cloud" rule giving him a 4+ cover save.

(edit for wargear)

My bad, youre right about the individual saves thing.

I guess that misinterpretation isnt going to help my credibility as far as the first part regarding the rules in the codex, but it was my understanding that if the rules dont say you CAN, then it means you CANT... after all, whats the purpose of specifying "any unit of striking scorpions he joins," if what they meant was "any unit he joins" ? The former is RAW, the latter is RAI

Rai he can only pass Stealth USR to Scorpions

Raw theres nothing switching off the Stealth USR ability to effect any unit he joins.

What is need is the word "only". If it said "This ability is only conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins" Then Rai would equal Raw.

As it stands theres nothing stoping the Stealth USR which reads ...
"The ability to make maximum use of available cover has saved many a warrior from discovery and death. All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1"
So RAW he joins a unit it has +1 to all cover saves ...

Well the problem with using the description in the rulebook as it pertains to the ability, instead of the description in the codex as it pertains to how he utilizes said rule, is that you start to end up with some weird rules if you apply that to other things.

I see where you are coming from, as the rulebook says that his "unit's cover saves are improved by +1"

but he also has the FLEET USR, and if you use the rulebook's description for that USR also you end up with "A unit with this rule
may assault in the same turn in which it has run." implying that because karandras has fleet, and because hes in the unit, the unit has fleet. that would give you fleet wraithguard.

Also, regarding the lack of the word "only," by that logic, karandras should be able to make a squad of guardians he leads fearless. The disciples rule states that "if the pheonix lord is leading a squad of their aspect, then the whole squad becomes fearless." - Note that it doesnt say "only" his aspect. Should those guardians be fearless?

"a squad of his aspect" excludes every unit but striking scorpions.

"any unit of striking scorpions" excludes every unit but striking scorpions.

Lets start with fearless. "... However, as long as a fearless character stays with a unit that is not fearless, he loses this special rule ..." So that's that one out the way.

Fleet has the * so is lost by IC that join a unit that doesn't also have the special rule.

As you can see these are covered which is why i didn't list them.

Now back to Karandras's Stealth. Stealth effect every one in the unit and gives them +1 to their cover save. The End. "This ability is conferred to any unit of striking scorpions Karandras joins" and by default it is already conferred to any unit he's joined. RAI he should only be able to use Stealth with striking scorpions but RAW he uses it with every one because they for got to say it only works with striking scorpions.

Tri has it right. The statement that it Works with Scorps is redundant as RaW it works with anyone.

Alright.

I never played fourth addition but I assume that the "works with the unit of scorpions he joins" clarification is a left over from then.

Was stealth not conferred to units joined back then?

Oddly the rule is one of those, that was copy and pasted from the 4th Ed.

The most abusive use of this is Karandras in a unit of 10 wrath guard with a warlock and conceal being fortuned. It walks across the board ignoring almost every thing hits them. I rarely run this most people (rightly) feel this cheesy. Since even anti tank weaponry starts bouncing off them.

I'm not sure how you can claim that Stealth applies to any unit he joins.

P1: Karandras has the Stealth USR (Codex Eldar Pg 56)
P2: Codex overrides rulebook
P3: Karandras' Stealth rule also states "This ability is also conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins."
C: Karandras' Stealth USR is modified by Codex Eldar to state that it transfers to units of Striking Scorpions if he joins them, instead of any eligible unit as would normally be the case by the Stealth USR.

whitedragon wrote:I'm not sure how you can claim that Stealth applies to any unit he joins.

P1: Karandras has the Stealth USR (Codex Eldar Pg 56)
P2: Codex overrides rulebook
P3: Karandras' Stealth rule also states "This ability is also conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins."
C: Karandras' Stealth USR is modified by Codex Eldar to state that it transfers to units of Striking Scorpions if he joins them, instead of any eligible unit as would normally be the case by the Stealth USR.

That had me wondering too, because in every other instance i have read where an IC confers a rule to a unit, it says "any unit." In this case, a particular type of unit is specified.

Initially, in my favor, I had assumed he conferred it to any unit at all. I had envisioned pathfinders getting 2+ cover saves behind picket fences, barbed wire, and lamp posts.

whitedragon wrote:I'm not sure how you can claim that Stealth applies to any unit he joins.

P1: Karandras has the Stealth USR (Codex Eldar Pg 56)
P2: Codex overrides rulebook
P3: Karandras' Stealth rule also states "This ability is also conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins."
C: Karandras' Stealth USR is modified by Codex Eldar to state that it transfers to units of Striking Scorpions if he joins them, instead of any eligible unit as would normally be the case by the Stealth USR.

If you go to a Diner that offers a free drink with every meal, and then a specific meal on the menu says that you may get cola with that meal, then it doesn't mean you cannot get Orangade with said meal. its just a case of a redundent sentence.

if it said "you may only get cola with this meal" then you'd have a statement that meant something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Falconlance wrote:


Initially, in my favor, I had assumed he conferred it to any unit at all. I had envisioned pathfinders getting 2+ cover saves behind picket fences, barbed wire, and lamp posts.

This still wouldnt work as nothing says that Stealth stacks.

combo wrote:

Falconlance wrote:


Initially, in my favor, I had assumed he conferred it to any unit at all. I had envisioned pathfinders getting 2+ cover saves behind picket fences, barbed wire, and lamp posts.

This still wouldnt work as nothing says that Stealth stacks.

Is it safe to assume then, that going to ground will not improve the pathfinders cover save?

Going to ground would add +1 to the path finders +2 but you'd wast a turn. far better to take adding +2 to your cover save and be able to shoot then adding +3 to your cover save and do nothing.

This is because GtG does not equal Stealth. They are 2 different rules that add +1 to your cover save.

Pathfinders and Karandras both use the Stealth USR but pathfinders modify it to be +2 instead of +1. Any IC joining the unit would befit from +1 from the Stealth rule but not +2 as that is part of the pathfinders rule which only effects the path finder.

whitedragon wrote:I'm not sure how you can claim that Stealth applies to any unit he joins.

P1: Karandras has the Stealth USR (Codex Eldar Pg 56)
P2: Codex overrides rulebook
P3: Karandras' Stealth rule also states "This ability is also conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins."
C: Karandras' Stealth USR is modified by Codex Eldar to state that it transfers to units of Striking Scorpions if he joins them, instead of any eligible unit as would normally be the case by the Stealth USR.

This is wrong. The Part about the Scorps does not limit it to ONLY scorps.

Gwar! wrote:This is wrong. The Part about the Scorps does not limit it to ONLY scorps.

It doesn't have to say "only" to limit the ability to Scorps. If he has Stealth, and confers it to any unit of scorpions, then he doesn't confer it to any other units, because the entry specifically tells us, He confers it to scorpions. Scorpions are clearly different than "Any Unit" which would normally be the case because of the USR description. The Eldar codex modifies the USR to describe scorpions as the unit that gains Stealth. Since the Eldar codex does not mention any other unit, and applies a modification and restriction to Stealth, it must only apply to Scorps.

Hence my Premise and Conclusion above.

Errrm... you seem to be getting it mixed up.

The rule says He has the "Stealth Special Rule".

Well there we go... he confers it to any unit he joins, as per the Stealth Special rule. The Part in Parenthesis is there to remind you that it does so. The part in parenthesis does not prevent it from working with other units. If it was intended to limit it, the rule would say "only Striking Scorps"

As I keep saying RAI may be that it should only work with Scorpions but like many rules written by GW that's not what we've been given. RAW states that any unit with a model with Stealth USR has +1 to their cover save. In his stealth rule it merely adds that it is conferred to scorpions that he joins.

This is another case of GW not read their rules and checking that they do what they're meant to.

And its not like its something new its been part of the codex since it came out in 4th ...

whitedragon wrote:

Gwar! wrote:This is wrong. The Part about the Scorps does not limit it to ONLY scorps.

It doesn't have to say "only" to limit the ability to Scorps. If he has Stealth, and confers it to any unit of scorpions, then he doesn't confer it to any other units, because the entry specifically tells us, He confers it to scorpions. Scorpions are clearly different than "Any Unit" which would normally be the case because of the USR description. The Eldar codex modifies the USR to describe scorpions as the unit that gains Stealth. Since the Eldar codex does not mention any other unit, and applies a modification and restriction to Stealth, it must only apply to Scorps.

Hence my Premise and Conclusion above.

Stealth by default is applied to any unit a IC joins. The codex doesnt change this. It says "the stealth rule is applied to any unit tof scorpions the IC joins" to which I'd reply "no sh t , its also applied to any other unit it joins"

No were in the codex does the USR get modified. If it said "The stealth rule is only applied" then it'd be obvious but as it stands its like someone saying "A character with stealth may apply stealth to a unit of scorpions it joins" it may also apply stealth to a unit of Guardians it joins, as no were in my sentence do I say "It may only"

I find it quite funny that you can put karandras with a unit of Harlequins, giving them infiltrate.

Goliath wrote:I find it quite funny that you can put karandras with a unit of Harlequins, giving them infiltrate.

I find it quite funny that you don't bother to read.

You can give them infiltrate, but by the time he has joined the Harlequins, it is too late for them to infiltrate. You can join them in reserves and outflank though.

Gwar! wrote:You can give them infiltrate, but by the time he has joined the Harlequins, it is too late for them to infiltrate. You can join them in reserves and outflank though.

Actually Gwar, thats incorrect. As they are not aspect warriors or an autarch, harlequins cannot benefit from exarch powers in the first place.

EDIT:

Additionally, if they were aspect warriors, karandras couldnt join them anyway, because they are not of his aspect.

Falconlance wrote:

Gwar! wrote:You can give them infiltrate, but by the time he has joined the Harlequins, it is too late for them to infiltrate. You can join them in reserves and outflank though.

Actually Gwar, thats incorrect. As they are not aspect warriors or an autarch, harlequins cannot benefit from exarch powers in the first place.

EDIT:

Additionally, if they were aspect warriors, karandras couldnt join them anyway, because they are not of his aspect.

Correct, I was just pointing out that it wouldn't work even if he could affect them. I suppose I should have said "could" not "can"

Im gonna disagree with you there Falconlance. The exact wording of shadowstrike is

"The exarch becomes one with the shadows, using them to shield his squad from their enemies as they approach. squads including a model with shadowstrike has the infiltrate special rule. This ability cannot affect an autarch - his command is needed else were"

The wording for phoenix lords states "Phoenix lords cannot join aspect warrior squads that are not of their aspect"

Therefore Karandras can confer infiltrate to a unit of Harliquins. As they are a Squad, and He can be a member of them.

It is for this reason that when an Exarch in a Dire Avenger Squad bladestorms, a Farseer can fire two shots from his Shuriken pistol, if hes in range. And technically should be the reason why Asurmen would be able to grand defend or bladestorm to a unit of Guardians.

Actually, the FAQ states only Aspect Warriors are affected by their powers, it even specifically mentions Shadowstrike.

combo wrote:Im gonna disagree with you there Falconlance. The exact wording of shadowstrike is

"The exarch becomes one with the shadows, using them to shield his squad from their enemies as they approach. squads including a model with shadowstrike has the infiltrate special rule. This ability cannot affect an autarch - his command is needed else were"

The wording for phoenix lords states "Phoenix lords cannot join aspect warrior squads that are not of their aspect"

Therefore Karandras can confer infiltrate to a unit of Harliquins. As they are a Squad, and He can be a member of them.

It is for this reason that when an Exarch in a Dire Avenger Squad bladestorms, a Farseer can fire two shots from his Shuriken pistol, if hes in range. And technically should be the reason why Asurmen would be able to grand defend or bladestorm to a unit of Guardians.

And again, this is an FAQ ruling that you are choosing to ignore.

willydstyle wrote:And again, this is an FAQ ruling that you are choosing to ignore.

As you should do, because this really should be an Errata. However Most people seem to use it as a basis for their games (Even I use 99% of it 99% of the time.)

Well as ive said many a time, my club prefers to run on entirely vanilla rules. No FAQ's, however we do give each other alot of leway (for instance allowing Shrike to infiltrate with a group) However that is because it is obviously intended that Shrike should be able to do that. No were does the rules hint that a phoenix lord cannot give his powers to another squad. Its RaI gone mad to be honest.

FAQ's should be used to clear up problems were the rules break down, not change rules that work perfectly because they dont seem right.

combo wrote:Well as ive said many a time, my club prefers to run on entirely vanilla rules. No FAQ's, however we do give each other alot of leway (for instance allowing Shrike to infiltrate with a group) However that is because it is obviously intended that Shrike should be able to do that. No were does the rules hint that a phoenix lord cannot give his powers to another squad. Its RaI gone mad to be honest.

FAQ's should be used to clear up problems were the rules break down, not change rules that work perfectly because they dont seem right.

I agree, however you must take into consideration a lot of people blindly follow them like the unwashed nerdy sheep they are

combo wrote:Well as ive said many a time, my club prefers to run on entirely vanilla rules. No FAQ's, however we do give each other alot of leway (for instance allowing Shrike to infiltrate with a group) However that is because it is obviously intended that Shrike should be able to do that. No were does the rules hint that a phoenix lord cannot give his powers to another squad. Its RaI gone mad to be honest.

FAQ's should be used to clear up problems were the rules break down, not change rules that work perfectly because they dont seem right.

While I agree with you in principle, most people who do not play in your club consider the FAQs to be "rules." As Gwar! and I have said, most of the FAQ rulings really should be errata, but I think that GW just doesn't want to have to do so many reprintings.

willydstyle wrote:

combo wrote:Well as ive said many a time, my club prefers to run on entirely vanilla rules. No FAQ's, however we do give each other alot of leway (for instance allowing Shrike to infiltrate with a group) However that is because it is obviously intended that Shrike should be able to do that. No were does the rules hint that a phoenix lord cannot give his powers to another squad. Its RaI gone mad to be honest.

FAQ's should be used to clear up problems were the rules break down, not change rules that work perfectly because they dont seem right.

While I agree with you in principle, most people who do not play in your club consider the FAQs to be "rules." As Gwar! and I have said, most of the FAQ rulings really should be errata, but I think that GW just doesn't want to have to do so many reprintings.

It is not even that, its because they don't want to admit they fethed up as bad as they did. it would take one guy literally 2 weeks to go with a marker pen and fix via errata all the issues in the FAQ's. GW can then issue the errata online and work to getting a second Print Run of all the codexes.

But.. they don't, because the Shareholders have an odd belief that spending money to support the game doesn't make them any.

combo wrote:Well as ive said many a time, my club prefers to run on entirely vanilla rules. No FAQ's, however we do give each other alot of leway (for instance allowing Shrike to infiltrate with a group) However that is because it is obviously intended that Shrike should be able to do that. No were does the rules hint that a phoenix lord cannot give his powers to another squad. Its RaI gone mad to be honest.

FAQ's should be used to clear up problems were the rules break down, not change rules that work perfectly because they dont seem right.

combo wrote:Im gonna disagree with you there Falconlance. The exact wording of shadowstrike is

"The exarch becomes one with the shadows, using them to shield his squad from their enemies as they approach. squads including a model with shadowstrike has the infiltrate special rule. This ability cannot affect an autarch - his command is needed else were"

The wording for phoenix lords states "Phoenix lords cannot join aspect warrior squads that are not of their aspect"

Therefore Karandras can confer infiltrate to a unit of Harliquins. As they are a Squad, and He can be a member of them.

It is for this reason that when an Exarch in a Dire Avenger Squad bladestorms, a Farseer can fire two shots from his Shuriken pistol, if hes in range. And technically should be the reason why Asurmen would be able to grand defend or bladestorm to a unit of Guardians.

It says right there, clear as crystal, on page 21 of Codex: Eldar, under the "Exarch Powers" heading, "Note that exarch powers can only ever affect aspect warriors and autarchs in the same squad as the exarch using them. If an exarch is removed from play then his abilities are lost."

Harlequins are not aspect warriors.

'This ability is also conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins'

Does the wording here mean that i can, say, join Karandras to a unit of scorpions in turn one, then another unit in turn 2, meaning that BOTH have the Stealth USR? No mention is made towhit Karandras has to be a part of the squad, merely that as long as he 'joins' it it has Stealth!

/ruleslawyeroff

Falconlance wrote:



It says right there, clear as crystal, on page 21 of Codex: Eldar, under the "Exarch Powers" heading, "Note that exarch powers can only ever affect aspect warriors and autarchs in the same squad as the exarch using them. If an exarch is removed from play then his abilities are lost."

Harlequins are not aspect warriors.

I stand corrected. my apologies.

willydstyle wrote:
While I agree with you in principle, most people who do not play in your club consider the FAQs to be "rules." As Gwar! and I have said, most of the FAQ rulings really should be errata, but I think that GW just doesn't want to have to do so many reprintings.

I was not implies that the majority of people do or should. I do believe that on the table top the game should be played as a mixture of RaI and RaW. But I do think that because RaW sometimes breaks down, people are far to willing to use RaI even when RaW is still working.

You CAN still stick asurmen and Yriel together, which would allow Yriel to throw his Spear of Twilight twice in a round

J.Black wrote:'This ability is also conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins'

Does the wording here mean that i can, say, join Karandras to a unit of scorpions in turn one, then another unit in turn 2, meaning that BOTH have the Stealth USR? No mention is made towhit Karandras has to be a part of the squad, merely that as long as he 'joins' it it has Stealth!

/ruleslawyeroff

Im going to go with no. Lysander has set a semi-precident for this however his wording states "Lysander has never lost the skills that made him the most efficient sergeant the Imperial Fists have ever known. Any model in a squad lysander has joined can reroll failed to hit rolls when shooting with heavy bolters, storm bolters, bolters, and bolt pistols"

Notice how it says "Lysander has joined" which technically means he doesn't have to be in the squad for them to benefit from his special rules.

However in karandras's profile is states "this ability is conferred to any unit of striking scorpions karandras joins" ergo the slightly different wording implies that no, the unit does not keep stealth after he leaves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Falconlance wrote:You CAN still stick asurmen and Yriel together, which would allow Yriel to throw his Spear of Twilight twice in a round

Im afraid im going to have to disagree with you again. Bladestorm states "May choose to add one to the number of shots they each fire with shuriken weapons that turn"

His Spear of Twilight to my knowledge is not a Shuriken weapon!

not to mention the rules on P21 that state it only affects the squads that he is in.

Also, a question just came to mind.

How would these rules interact if you joined two phoenix lords together? Do they count as aspect warriors? Could they benefit from each others exarch powers? Can we stick fuegan and maugan ra together for double crack shot super duo with +1 armor penetration rolls on a str6 assault4 weapon?

Falconlance wrote:not to mention the rules on P21 that state it only affects the squads that he is in.

Also, a question just came to mind.

How would these rules interact if you joined two phoenix lords together? Do they count as aspect warriors? Could they benefit from each others exarch powers? Can we stick fuegan and maugan ra together for double crack shot super duo with +1 armor penetration rolls on a str6 assault4 weapon?

Is another Phoenix lord a Unit of their Aspect Warriors? No it is not, so he cannot join up with one (As per the FAQ)

Falconlance wrote:You CAN still stick asurmen and Yriel together, which would allow Yriel to throw his Spear of Twilight twice in a round

Im afraid im going to have to disagree with you again. Bladestorm states "May choose to add one to the number of shots they each fire with shuriken weapons that turn"

His Spear of Twilight to my knowledge is not a Shuriken weapon!

Feck. I must have missed the "Fire with their shuriken weaponry" part.

Falconlance wrote:not to mention the rules on P21 that state it only affects the squads that he is in.

Also, a question just came to mind.

How would these rules interact if you joined two phoenix lords together? Do they count as aspect warriors? Could they benefit from each others exarch powers? Can we stick fuegan and maugan ra together for double crack shot super duo with +1 armor penetration rolls on a str6 assault4 weapon?

I assume that if they count as Aspect Warriors then neither of them could join each others squad. As either of them would be an aspect warrior not of the others own Aspect.

I.E. Maugan Ra is in a unit of Guardians, is Karandras tried to join the said unit of guardians he couldnt, as the squad has an Aspect Warrior of the Dark Reapers in it (Maugan Ra)

Of course if they do not count as Aspect Warriors then they could join each others squad. However that would mean that as they are most definitely not Autarchs then they ironically would not be affected by their exarch powers.

Therefore I would conclude they are Aspect Warriors and as such cannot join a neutral unit if it contains another Phoenix lord.

Joins / Has Joined...

If only someone thought to write 'is joined to' instead.... Oh, wait. I just remembered which company wrote the accursed things. /sigh

Actually, ICs and universal special rules dont quite work as Tri and Gwar have stated.

Any USR with a * is lost if the IC and the unit hes joining dont both have the USR.

However, the other USRs arent automatically gained by units or ICs. They just arent lost by the one side if only one side has the USR.

Page 48 under the IC rules points out that different USRs arent conferred onto a unit or IC that doesnt have the USR unless the USR specifically states that the ability is conferred. It uses the stubborn USR as an example that mentions it gets added if the unit doesnt have stubborn.

Stealth doesnt have this special mention of being conferred tho, so if an IC with stealth joins a unit without stealth....the unit doesnt gain stealth, the IC just doesnt lose it. This means that Karandas in a unit of guardians doesnt give them stealth but he does still have it himself.

It also means that the mention in the eldar codex of stealth being passed on to any unit of scorps is not redundant, if it was mentioned there the scorps would not get stealth as its not conferred to any unit and its not an exarch power.

The FAQ really clears up the only problem with the RAW, everything else is answered in the RAW. Stealth only works on scorps because the codex says it works on scorps.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:The FAQ really clears up the only problem with the RAW, everything else is answered in the RAW. Stealth only works on scorps because the codex says it works on scorps.

The Rules for stealth also clearly indicate it is the UNIT that benefits from the effect, not the model.

But, as the IC rules point out, the unit doesnt gain the stealth USR. The stealth USR does talk about the unit's cover saves being improved by +1, but nothing there tells us that a unit is given the stealth USR by an IC that has stealth.

And since on pg 48 the RAW specifically tells us that the IC wont give any unit he joins his own USR UNLESS the USR specifically tells us that it is conferred, then the unit wont get stealth.

The USR on stealth does tell us what stealth does for a unit with stealth, but an IC with stealth isnt going to give stealth to a unit he joins.

Pg 48:

*Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.*

So that pretty clearly tells us that Karandas dosnt add stealth to anything. Then the Eldar codex tells us that he does confer stealth to any unit of scorps that he joins, so since specific > general all is well.


Sliggoth

One could argue that the fact that the Stealth USR says "unit" could mean that it does specify that the unit gains the ability.

Except that the example sited for a USR that does confer the ability (stubborn) does indeed have an entire sentence that tells us that IC with stubborn give that ability to any unit they join. Pg 48 tells us what the requirement is for conferring an ability is, and it gives us an example of how such a rule would read.

And in the stealth USR the word unit is used to describe how the stealth USR affects gameplay, it has no mention whatsoever of an IC. The USR has to tell us that it is conferred, which the stealth rule does not do. All the stealth USR tells us is what happens when a unit does have the USR, it makes no mention at all about conferring it.

Since very few IC have stealth (anyone besides Karandas?) I would imagine that they used the word unit's simply because they forgot about him.

A further indication that this is true would be that the eldar codex makes a specific rule for karandas conferring stealth onto a unit of scorps that he joins, this rule would indeed be redundant if the stealth USR was already conferred by any IC onto any unit that they joined. Since GW is famous for sloppy rule writing this is by no means useful as proof of the rule, but it perhaps adds a crumb to one side of the scale.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Except that the example sited for a USR that does confer the ability (stubborn) does indeed have an entire sentence that tells us that IC with stubborn give that ability to any unit they join. Pg 48 tells us what the requirement is for conferring an ability is, and it gives us an example of how such a rule would read.

And in the stealth USR the word unit is used to describe how the stealth USR affects gameplay, it has no mention whatsoever of an IC. The USR has to tell us that it is conferred, which the stealth rule does not do. All the stealth USR tells us is what happens when a unit does have the USR, it makes no mention at all about conferring it.

Since very few IC have stealth (anyone besides Karandas?) I would imagine that they used the word unit's simply because they forgot about him.

A further indication that this is true would be that the eldar codex makes a specific rule for karandas conferring stealth onto a unit of scorps that he joins, this rule would indeed be redundant if the stealth USR was already conferred by any IC onto any unit that they joined. Since GW is famous for sloppy rule writing this is by no means useful as proof of the rule, but it perhaps adds a crumb to one side of the scale.


Sliggoth

I was thinking about this same line of logic... because, for example, a Crisis suit commander does not grant a unit he joins FNP just because he has a specific piece of wargear. But, as usual, GW screwed up the wording with stealth so that the simplest reading is that an IC with stealth will indeed grant it to any unit he joins.

Dont get caught up on the word unit. After all, even an IC alone is a unit.


The USR on stealth is just that, a general rule. Its hard to get much more general than universal.

The stealth USR tells us what effect stealth has for a unit that has stealth, it in no way tells us what unit(s) have stealth. So the word "unit's" in the stealth rule is very general, telling us what the effect does for any unit that has stealth (which would include a unit that is an IC).

To see if an IC gives a unit that he joins his effects we need to look at the special rule on pg 48 for ICs, which tells us that USRs need to specifically tell us that they are added. It gives us an example of a USR that does do this, stubborn. Looking at the USR for stealth, we find that it tells us how stealth affects a unit that has it but it does not tell us that ICs with stealth add it to any unit they join. So by the IC rule we see that stealth is not added.

That is the reason that karandas has another special rule specifically mentioning that he adds stealth to any unit of scorpions that he joins, because the stealth rule wouldnt let him give anything else stealth on its own.


Sliggoth

Ok lets work through the reasons give against it conferring to every one in a unit. Some other USR don't work the same way on the unit as noted by other posters. They are FNP and Stubborn.

Easy one first ... Feel no pain "...If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound ...." Model so not a unit in the slightest.

Moving on, stubborn ... (edit) on second thought I think GW is just wording this to match the fearless rule.

Stealth "All the unit's cover saves are improved by +1" since this rule doesn't have the '*' it isn't lost. So a unit with this rule gains +1 to all cover-saves.

Just keep clear what the various parts of the rules there mean.

A * on the rule is telling us that the USR is lost if both the IC and the unit do not have the USR. An IC with a *ed USR loses that USR himslef when he joins a unit without it, and vice versa.

A rule without a * is ONLY telling us that the USR is NOT lost by the IC or UNit that has the USR if they join another unit that does not have the USR. A rule without a * is not automatically given to the other half, it is merely not lost by the half that does have it.

So how do we know if an IC gives his USR to a unit that he joins? We look to pg 48 under the special rules heading for that info. And THAT is the rule for which USRs are given to units that ICs join.

Since stealth doesnt meet the criteria established in the pg 48 rule, that is how we know that stealth isnt conferred onto an IC's unit.


Remember that the word unit is a generic term that applies to units of models as well as a single IC model per pg 4.



Sliggoth

Fair enough I missed that rule on pg 48. Trouble is it doesn't go far enough as on the next page it tells you that when being shot at the count as being the same unit, and all models in a unit with stealth gain +1 to there cover save.

But, the whole point here is that the unit doesnt have stealth. The IC still has stealth so he should still get a +1 to his cover save, but hes not giving stealth to the rest of his unit, so they do not. The next page the rules talk about shooting at an IC and the unit he has joined as one combined unit, there is nothing there that suggests that the unit he joins gains stealth from him tho.

Its fine for an IC to have different saves from the unit he has joined, he can also have different USRs as well.

Sliggoth

The point is, the rule says "The unit gets +1", not the model.

We do know from the IC rules and the USR rules that ICs and units that they join do not give each other stealth.

So the arguement then is being made that since the rule reads that the unit's cover saves are improved by +1 ALL of the unit gets +1 to cover saves, even tho part of the unit does not have stealth?

Then we would be moving the problem back one step, to a conflict between the IC rule on pg 48 and the USR stealth rule, since that reading of the stealth rule would be giving stealth to the rest of the IC's unit.

So either the IC loses stealth himself (since pg 48 tells us he cannot give it to a unit he joins) if by merely joining the unit he is giving it stealth, or else the USR stealth rule is being taken as more specific and is over writing the pg 48 IC rule.


Since the IC pg 48 rule is more specific than the USR (universal being about as general as we can get) that would mean in effect:

The pg 48 rule has precedence, an IC with a USR can only add it to a unit he joins if the USR specifically tells us it does, since the stealth rule doesnt tell us this then the IC must lose stealth himself. This would be the only way he would not give stealth to the unit he joins.

Isnt that where we are headed if we take that road?


Sliggoth

You join the PL with the unit. The IC now has this special rule in effect:
Stealth: All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1.

Stealth is not marked with an Asterisk, so it is not lost by the IC when he joins a unit without it. Page 48 is not applicable because all the models do not need to have stealth. The rules for stealth say "The unit gets +1 to their cover saves" not the model. Because there is ONE model with the Rules "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1" in the unit, the units cover saves are improved by +1

As you can see, the IC having stealth means the whole unit benefits.

If Stealth said "Models cover saves are improved by +1.", then you would have a point, but it does not.

And before you start trumpeting Specific over Universal, As I said, the Models do NOT NEED STEALTH to benefit from it. So long as there is even one model with stealth (Which says "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1", they get the benefit.

Sliggoth, I totally agree with you that that's what GW probably intended with the Stealth USR. Yes, an IC is a unit in his or her own right, but the rules also say that when he joins another unit, they become one unit for most purposes. Therefore, the way the Stealth USR was written he will definitely give stealth to any unit he joins, and it doesn't even take any arcane manipulations of semantics to do so.

willydstyle wrote:and it doesn't even take any arcane manipulations of semantics to do so.

Which is a darn shame, because that is so fun!

...This cuts both ways. Another similarly word rule is Orks Dok's tools "...He confers Feel no pain to his unit..." also the SM Narthecium "... all models in his squad have feel no pain USR...". Nether of these mark the IC as gain them but since they say unit (or squad) have the rule should IC also gain it since they to are part of the unit (or squad).

Also in the case of Mad Dok Grotsnik (with Dok's tools) he could never give Feel No Pain to any one but himself. In which case why not just give him the FNP USR?

So ... any IC that joins a unit with stealth would then gain the cover save as well...


Suddenly makes sticking Maugan ra into a unit of pathfinders very appealing. Or Eldrad too come to think of it.

Its a rules interpretation that I wasnt willing to make since it gives such a huge edge to an eldar army, but so be it if thats the general thought trend. Have to dig out a few more eldar rangers from the back shelf now


Sliggoth

Hmmm, Karandas in a wraithguard unit too... maybe with eldrad to make an indestructible unit; so many possibilities to abuse now, wow.

Sliggoth wrote:So ... any IC that joins a unit with stealth would then gain the cover save as well...


Suddenly makes sticking Maugan ra into a unit of pathfinders very appealing. Or Eldrad too come to think of it.

Its a rules interpretation that I wasnt willing to make since it gives such a huge edge to an eldar army, but so be it if thats the general thought trend. Have to dig out a few more eldar rangers from the back shelf now


Sliggoth

Hmmm, Karandas in a wraithguard unit too... maybe with eldrad to make an indestructible unit; so many possibilities to abuse now, wow.

Was that sarcastic? It's hard to tell over the Internet.

Sliggoth wrote:So ... any IC that joins a unit with stealth would then gain the cover save as well...


Suddenly makes sticking Maugan ra into a unit of pathfinders very appealing. Or Eldrad too come to think of it.

Its a rules interpretation that I wasnt willing to make since it gives such a huge edge to an eldar army, but so be it if thats the general thought trend. Have to dig out a few more eldar rangers from the back shelf now


Sliggoth

Hmmm, Karandas in a wraithguard unit too... maybe with eldrad to make an indestructible unit; so many possibilities to abuse now, wow.

Just remember that if your stick people with path finders that they'll only get a +1 cover save as the pathfinder rule only effects pathfinders.

Gwar! wrote: Was that sarcastic? It's hard to tell over the Internet.

I'm an optimist I think he's come round

Since I had never really thought this interpretation was possible, it was kind of first thoughts off of my head.


This is definitely going to surprise my local group tho, because I do run units of wraithguard at times ... going to have to add karandas to them and see how hard of a unit that will be to take down.

Opens up a whole new area of thought really. And Im not so sure that the pathfinders wouldnt give +2 to any IC that joins them then, the wording seems to indicate that the squad receives +2...so using the word squad to mean same as unit that would seem to be the same thing.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Since I had never really thought this interpretation was possible, it was kind of first thoughts off of my head.


This is definitely going to surprise my local group tho, because I do run units of wraithguard at times ... going to have to add karandas to them and see how hard of a unit that will be to take down.

Opens up a whole new area of thought really. And Im not so sure that the pathfinders wouldnt give +2 to any IC that joins them then, the wording seems to indicate that the squad receives +2...so using the word squad to mean same as unit that would seem to be the same thing.



Sliggoth

The rules say "any cover save THEY use". "They" refers to Pathfinders, not the squad, else it would say "the Squads cover save"

Gwar! wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:Since I had never really thought this interpretation was possible, it was kind of first thoughts off of my head.


This is definitely going to surprise my local group tho, because I do run units of wraithguard at times ... going to have to add karandas to them and see how hard of a unit that will be to take down.

Opens up a whole new area of thought really. And Im not so sure that the pathfinders wouldnt give +2 to any IC that joins them then, the wording seems to indicate that the squad receives +2...so using the word squad to mean same as unit that would seem to be the same thing.



Sliggoth

The rules say "any cover save THEY use". "They" refers to Pathfinders, not the squad, else it would say "the Squads cover save"

True, but since the majority of the squad has the save at +2 that's the cover save you use. IIRC it's around p.24 or so where they talk about units with multiple civer saves. (BRB is in the basement, and I'm in bed reading, so someone else will have to confirm or deny this).

Kyrolon wrote:True, but since the majority of the squad has the save at +2 that's the cover save you use.

A good point, but unrelated to the Pathfinder Stealth rule

Indeed it is(unrelated), the stealth rule itself is not passed on even though the benefit is.

Stealth rule adds +1 to a units cover save ... unless your a pathfinder in which case they get +2. There's nothing in saves, or cover saves, rules that force you to take the majority save. So you take the best save available, which for a IC joining pathfinders might be their cover save +1.

willydstyle wrote:

Squig_herder wrote:Maugan Ra is an absolute gun when you walk him up the field shooting everything to death and then charging peple with S5 power weapon and WS7

It's a str 6 power weapon His greatest weakness is the lack of an invulnerable save. Guess what happens when he gets into a fight with a SM captain with storm shield and relic blade?

Nothing as a relic blade is two handed?

Lt Jkoll wrote:

willydstyle wrote:

Squig_herder wrote:Maugan Ra is an absolute gun when you walk him up the field shooting everything to death and then charging peple with S5 power weapon and WS7

It's a str 6 power weapon His greatest weakness is the lack of an invulnerable save. Guess what happens when he gets into a fight with a SM captain with storm shield and relic blade?

Nothing as a relic blade is two handed?

necro but two handed just means you can't get a bonus for having 2 close combat weapons ... and the storm shield needs no hands to be used. A model with power sword, pistol and storm shield will get +1 attacks for 2 ccws and a 3+ inv.

Back to the depths with ye...