How do you play it: Assaulting a unit partially in cover (to lazy to actually make it a poll)

Your five man unit wants to assault the enemy five man unit. The closest model to your unit is outside the area difficult terrain, but the other four are in area difficult terrain.

How do you play it?

1. The only check for difficult is if closest to closest goes through difficult. Models past that can ignore terrain, or choose to be in support range instead of base to base rather than enter difficult, even if unoccupied models are in there.

2. Check for difficult for closest to closest, and for any model that would have to enter difficult to get in base to base with an unoccupied enemy model. This means if you have more models assaulting than there are targets outside cover, you must roll to attempt to engage models in difficult.

3. If the declared target has any models in difficult, you must roll difficult to assault, even if there are enough unoccupied models outside the difficult for your attacking force to each be in base to base with an unoccupied model without entering the terrain.

4. Something else entirely, give details.

First consider the method for moving into assault detaled on page 34. It says to roll for difficult terrain as normal. This states:

If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move. If he chooses not to, the unit moves as normal but may not enter difficult terrain.

As you can see, if you want any of your models to enter difficult terrain, you must declare it or not move in.

If any assaulting models move through difficult terrain, the fight at I1

Page 36 BRB wrote:If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving/

That leads me to believe that if any model would have to move into difficult terrain during the assault, even if the first model is clear, you roll for the test. If there are any models in assault range in Difficult Terrain, you cannot assault the unit unless you declare you are entering the terrain, and thus must take the test

3: read the relevant parts on page 36 of the BRB, Assaulting through cover. If any model in the assaulting unit triggers a test all have to abide by it. And no, you can't get past page 34 and the demand that you engage as many enemies as possible.

Spetulhu wrote:3: read the relevant parts on page 36 of the BRB, Assaulting through cover. If any model in the assaulting unit triggers a test all have to abide by it. And no, you can't get past page 34 and the demand that you engage as many enemies as possible.

How is this different than choice 2?

It's different because you must check before the first model moves, even if it is clear. In order to assault a Unit with even 1 model in Difficult Terrain, you must declare you are entering that terrain to assault them, As per Page 14. Once you declare that, you must make the test, and may move up to what the dice say, and you still strike at I1.

That's choice 2. I may not have worded it clearly enough.

edit: Your number 2 seemed to suggest you roll per model. No worries then.

Kaaihn wrote:That's choice 2. I may not have worded it clearly enough.

My apologies. Now go clear up the wording you!

I heard that you must maximize models or attempt to. So if there are models in the unit that at in cover that are within charge range then you roll the dice. If the ones that are not in cover are close enough then you still assault. However if the models that are in cover are out of range then you do not need to take the since you would not be able to charge them anyways. This is how is was explained to me by a Games day Referee.

Edited, take a look. That clear enough?

I think 2 might be legal, 1 is definitely not supported by the rules, but I play in a different fashion.

As Gwar! said, if you want to enter difficult terrain, you have to declare it, so the way I see it, if the closest model is outside of difficult terrain, you don't declare that you are entering the terrain, but you do declare an assault.

Then you move the closest model to the closest model.

Then, you move as many other models into base to base as possible, but without entering the difficult terrain, as you did not declare you were entering difficult terrain for your assault move.

Then reaction moves are made.

That's how I've been playing it, but if someone will show me why it's wrong I'll happily change how I play

Kaaihn wrote:Edited, take a look. That clear enough?

That's also wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't move through the Terrain, the fact that there is one member of the Target unit in difficult terrain, means you have to test, even if you don't move through it.

Gwar! wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:Edited, take a look. That clear enough?

That's also wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't move through the Terrain, the fact that there is one member of the Target unit in difficult terrain, means you have to test, even if you don't move through it.

Why would you need to test if you can satisfy every assault requirement without stepping in to the difficult? If a five man squad assaults a ten man that has the two rear models in terrain, the attacking five would go closest to closet without going through difficult. Then the remaining four attackers would each go to an unoccupied enemy, of which there are four outside terrain. No attacker goes into terrain in this example, why would they test?

Kaaihn wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:Edited, take a look. That clear enough?

That's also wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't move through the Terrain, the fact that there is one member of the Target unit in difficult terrain, means you have to test, even if you don't move through it.

Why would you need to test if you can satisfy every assault requirement without stepping in to the difficult? If a five man squad assaults a ten man that has the two rear models in terrain, the attacking five would go closest to closet without going through difficult. Then the remaining four attackers would each go to an unoccupied enemy, of which there are four outside terrain. No attacker goes into terrain in this example, why would they test?

Because you don't assault individual models, you assault Units. Part of Unit is in Difficult terrain, ergo you must declare you are entering the terrain to assault that unit.

Aaaah, I see where you are coming from. You are indeed told to move into close combat with the unit you have declared against. To be able to move into contact with a unit partially in difficult, you would have to enter the difficult. Since it tells you that you must move following the same rules as the movement phase with the 1" exception, you would have to declare you are entering difficult, and roll before you move at all.

Is that what you are saying?

Kaaihn wrote:Aaaah, I see where you are coming from. You are indeed told to move into close combat with the unit you have declared against. To be able to move into contact with a unit partially in difficult, you would have to enter the difficult. Since it tells you that you must move following the same rules as the movement phase with the 1" exception, you would have to declare you are entering difficult, and roll before you move at all.

Is that what you are saying?

Yup. Which means that if you roll badly, the assault could well fail.

Edited. That is number three now, since number one and number two are the common ways I see. I'm curious which method others outside my usual store use.

I would like to suggest another alternative. If there is a single target assault model outside of difficult terrain within assault range of the closest model of the assaulting unit, you DO NOT roll any difficult terrain test at all, even if there are other models of the target unit in difficult terrain. Please read paragraph 3 of page 34 BRB very carefully and you will come to the same conclusion.

slainex wrote:I would like to suggest another alternative. If there is a single target assault model outside of difficult terrain within assault range of the closest model of the assaulting unit, you DO NOT roll any difficult terrain test at all, even if there are other models of the target unit in difficult terrain. Please read paragraph 3 of page 34 BRB very carefully and you will come to the same conclusion.

How does that differ from option one?

And taking into account paragraph 2 on page 34 also, as well as the entire section of Assaulting Through Cover on 36, I do not come to your conclusion. In this thread I'm more interested in hearing what people do though, rather than a debate on what is right.

Gwar! wrote:Because you don't assault individual models, you assault Units. Part of Unit is in Difficult terrain, ergo you must declare you are entering the terrain to assault that unit.

But that's not what the rules say? They say if any model in the assaulting unit needs to go through difficult terrain...

Spetulhu wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Because you don't assault individual models, you assault Units. Part of Unit is in Difficult terrain, ergo you must declare you are entering the terrain to assault that unit.

But that's not what the rules say? They say if any model in the assaulting unit needs to go through difficult terrain...

Page 14 wrote:If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move. If he chooses not to, the unit moves as normal but may not enter difficult terrain.

33 wrote:As you cannot measure the distance to the enemy before declaring the assault. If you misjudge the distance and the unit is unable to reach its target. then the unit does not move and that assault is ignored

Page 34 wrote:All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models.

Page 33 wrote:Assault Phase Summery:
Move assaulting units
• Pick a unit.
• Declare which enemy unit it is going to assault.

It doesn't get much clearer. In order to assault a unit that is even partially in Difficult Terrain, you must declare beforehand that you are going to enter the terrain, as you are not allowed to pre-measure to see if any models might move through it. Because you declared you are moving into the terrain, you take the Terrain test before moving any models, and all models in that unit are limited to the movement rolled and will suffer the penalties incurred.

I have to vote for option 4, because the other options are short of the mark.

If there are two assaulting models versus a unit with two outside of difficult terrain and three inside difficult terrain, and the models outside of terrain are going to be the closest models, no difficult terrain test should be taken. But even if you're assaulting with five models, if those five models couldn't reach the the three models in cover for some reason--the two models outside of cover are 5.5" away, the models inside cover are 7.5" away--then they wouldn't have to make a difficult terrain test.

I think this is one of those situations where one would may have to stop and measure the movements of several models in order to determine if a rule applies. That rule being determining whether or not you would have to go into difficult terrain according to the assault rules.

Edit: Just to clarify, the assault rules require the assaulting player to prefer moving into contact with unengaged models, so most of the time that's going to mean that if the assaulted unit has models reachable only through difficult terrain, the assaulting unit is going to have to take a difficult terrain test. But it's not automatic and it's going to require pre-measuring under the "it's okay to premeasure to determine whether a rule or effect applies" AFTER the assault is declared but before the assaulting models are moved.

solkan wrote:I have to vote for option 4, because the other options are short of the mark.

If there are two assaulting models versus a unit with two outside of difficult terrain and three inside difficult terrain, and the models outside of terrain are going to be the closest models, no difficult terrain test should be taken. But even if you're assaulting with five models, if those five models couldn't reach the the three models in cover for some reason--the two models outside of cover are 5.5" away, the models inside cover are 7.5" away--then they wouldn't have to make a difficult terrain test.

I think this is one of those situations where one would may have to stop and measure the movements of several models in order to determine if a rule applies. That rule being determining whether or not you would have to go into difficult terrain according to the assault rules.

Edit: Just to clarify, the assault rules require the assaulting player to prefer moving into contact with unengaged models, so most of the time that's going to mean that if the assaulted unit has models reachable only through difficult terrain, the assaulting unit is going to have to take a difficult terrain test. But it's not automatic and it's going to require pre-measuring under the "it's okay to premeasure to determine whether a rule or effect applies" AFTER the assault is declared but before the assaulting models are moved.

Tell me if I am summarizing your method correctly.

Roll difficult if closest to closest takes you through difficult. If all assaulting models can get to an unengaged model without going through difficult, no test is taken. If all enemy models outside difficult are taken and you still have unengaged assaulting models, you would measure to see if you are within 6" of the unoccupied enemy models in terrain. If they are within 6", you make a difficult check. If they are not, you don't make a check, and move your remaining unoccupied assaulters into base to base with already occupied enemy models outside difficult, or into support range.

Is that accurate to how you do it?

Because you don't assault individual models, you assault Units. Part of Unit is in Difficult terrain, ergo you must declare you are entering the terrain to assault that unit.

You are making a leap here that is not supported in the rules. You are missing a premise to back up your conclusion.

The rules for this are gacked up because they allow you to get half way through your assault move before realizing you have to make a DT test. I think willydstyles way of doing it works best but be aware the BGB doesn't fully support it.

You know Gwar , if GW have hired you while their web forum was still up , they might not have to close it down.

with that said , you should be nominated for the most helpful GW person.

LunaHound wrote:
You know Gwar , if GW have hired you while their web forum was still up , they might not have to close it down.

If they hired me to clean up the FAQ's for a month I think I'd be getting decelerations of love and marriage via post.

Kaaihn wrote:

solkan wrote:I have to vote for option 4, because the other options are short of the mark.

If there are two assaulting models versus a unit with two outside of difficult terrain and three inside difficult terrain, and the models outside of terrain are going to be the closest models, no difficult terrain test should be taken. But even if you're assaulting with five models, if those five models couldn't reach the the three models in cover for some reason--the two models outside of cover are 5.5" away, the models inside cover are 7.5" away--then they wouldn't have to make a difficult terrain test.

I think this is one of those situations where one would may have to stop and measure the movements of several models in order to determine if a rule applies. That rule being determining whether or not you would have to go into difficult terrain according to the assault rules.

Edit: Just to clarify, the assault rules require the assaulting player to prefer moving into contact with unengaged models, so most of the time that's going to mean that if the assaulted unit has models reachable only through difficult terrain, the assaulting unit is going to have to take a difficult terrain test. But it's not automatic and it's going to require pre-measuring under the "it's okay to premeasure to determine whether a rule or effect applies" AFTER the assault is declared but before the assaulting models are moved.

Tell me if I am summarizing your method correctly.

Roll difficult if closest to closest takes you through difficult. If all assaulting models can get to an unengaged model without going through difficult, no test is taken. If all enemy models outside difficult are taken and you still have unengaged assaulting models, you would measure to see if you are within 6" of the unoccupied enemy models in terrain. If they are within 6", you make a difficult check. If they are not, you don't make a check, and move your remaining unoccupied assaulters into base to base with already occupied enemy models outside difficult, or into support range.

Is that accurate to how you do it?

No, I'm saying that you can determine explicitly before conducting the assault move whether or not a difficult terrain test will be necessary because the difficult terrain test (if it is necessary) affects all of the assaulting models and you don't do strange things like take difficult terrain tests half way through the assault. Honestly, in almost every case it should be obvious whether or not one of the assaulting models is going to have to enter difficult terrain without resorting to using quarters and blank bases to mark positions.

The ugly, sloppy, messy method is to start moving your assault, realize that one of the assaulting models is going to enter difficult terrain, roll the difficult terrain, and retroactively adjust your assault movements or return to the starting position because the assault failed. The nice way of doing it is to look at the assaulting unit, figure out which model each of the assaulting models is going to engage, and at that point you'll know whether or not a difficult terrain test is necessary, and then take the test.

solkan wrote:No, I'm saying that you can determine explicitly before conducting the assault move whether or not a difficult terrain test will be necessary

This is highly incorrect. In order to do this, you must pre meausure the distance before you assault, which is explicitly forbidden on page 33:

Page 33 wrote:As you cannot measure the distance to the enemy before declaring the assault, if you misjudge the distance and the unit is unable to reach its target. then the unit does not move and that assault is ignored

Gwar! wrote:

solkan wrote:No, I'm saying that you can determine explicitly before conducting the assault move whether or not a difficult terrain test will be necessary

This is highly incorrect. In order to do this, you must pre meausure the distance before you assault, which is explicitly forbidden on page 33:

Page 33 wrote:As you cannot measure the distance to the enemy before declaring the assault, if you misjudge the distance and the unit is unable to reach its target. then the unit does not move and that assault is ignored

Well, of course you don't measure the distance BEFORE you declare the assault. You measure the distances AFTER declaring the charge. If there is a question about whether or not the unit will enter difficult terrain, measure the questionable cases to determine whether the difficult terrain test is necessary. Page 33 prohibits measuring before declaring the assault, it doesn't prohibit measuring to determine whether a rule applies. After all assaults are declared, the measurements which I'm describing fall under measuring to determine the rules, because it is entirely deterministic that the closest assaulting model will move its effective movement rate towards the nearest model.

Edit: Edited for clarity in second sentence.

So, what I said was accurate as your method if you take all that into account before moving the first model, but after declaring the charge it looks like.

That sounds like the way I have been playing it myself. Before moving a model, but after declaring the charge, you measure to see if the terrain rules are going to have bearing on the assault. If all attackers could get into base to base without going in, the terrain check wouldn't apply, so you don't make it.

It isn't completely clean though, because you have to eyeball and guess about where there is enough space for models to all fit, guess about space to move past someone that has already moved, etc. But it definitely works better than starting to move models and then rolling for difficult halfway through your assault move, and having to move everything back to where you started if you then roll to low to have assaulted at all!

After noticing from this thread that the assault moves tell you that you must use the standard movement rules though, it is looking to me like this method has been wrong. You declare an assault unit to unit, not unit to half a unit. If you want to assault a unit that has someone in difficult, you can't unless you have the ability to go in to difficult yourself. By being told to use the standard movement rules, that means you have to declare you are moving in to difficult, and roll. Otherwise, you aren't allowed in to the difficult per the normal movement rules, and I don't see anything in the assault rules to give an exception to not use that movement rule.

It does look like it is supposed to be an all or nothing situation to me. The side benefit is, that is perfectly clean, you don't have to count models, envision the order things will move and end up and who will have room to move around who, etc.

Kaaihn wrote:After noticing from this thread that the assault moves tell you that you must use the standard movement rules though, it is looking to me like this method has been wrong. You declare an assault unit to unit, not unit to half a unit. If you want to assault a unit that has someone in difficult, you can't unless you have the ability to go in to difficult yourself. By being told to use the standard movement rules, that means you have to declare you are moving in to difficult, and roll. Otherwise, you aren't allowed in to the difficult per the normal movement rules, and I don't see anything in the assault rules to give an exception to not use that movement rule.

It does look like it is supposed to be an all or nothing situation to me. The side benefit is, that is perfectly clean, you don't have to count models, envision the order things will move and end up and who will have room to move around who, etc.

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So Gwar, you're saying that if I have a unit spread out across half the table with a model in cover 20" away from the assault, the assaulting unit still has to roll for difficult terrain, even tho there is no conceivable way for them to reach the model in cover?
Or am I misreading what you're saying?

don_mondo wrote:So Gwar, you're saying that if I have a unit spread out across half the table with a model in cover 20" away from the assault, the assaulting unit still has to roll for difficult terrain, even tho there is no conceivable way for them to reach the model in cover?
Or am I misreading what you're saying?

That is exactly what I am saying because that is what the rules state.

Personally, I'd use the answer in the old FAQ, Assault rules haven't changed that much. I know you don't care for them, but they are useful guidelines.

"If this means that any of the charging models has to enter difficult terrain to engage an enemy, the entire unit must take a difficult terrain test before the first charging model is moved (so the entire unit could fail to reach altogether!)."
So you would only have to test if there were models you can actually reach. Pure, RAW, you may be correct, but in this instance I would have to apply the anti-idiocy clause.........

don_mondo wrote:So you would only have to test if there were models you can actually reach. Pure, RAW, you may be correct, but in this instance I would have to apply the anti-idiocy clause.........

The problem with that is, where does it stop? You change the rules there and slowly slowly you stop playing 40k and start Playing Househammer 40k. Much simpler just to stick to the rules regardless of the effect.

I generally side with RAW, but I agree with don on this. If none of the models have to enter DT, it doesn't make sense to take the test. Yes, that isn't RAW, but there's also 'making the game fun for both players'.

There is no evidence I can find in the rules (and I did read all quotes so far in this thread) to suggest that if an assaulting unit has absolutely no chance of entering terrain during their assault movement that they still have to make a difficult terrain test.

The only stipulation concretely presented in the rules is on page 36:

"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models, ny model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant test before moving."


If the assaulting unit's total movement is in sufficient to possibly reach *any* of the terrain obscuring the path to the defending models then then we can unequivocally reason that NO models from the assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of their assault move.

While the rules on page 33 do prohibit pre-measuring before declaring an assault, after declaring the assault no such prohibition is listed. As such it is perfectly legitimate (and inherently required) for a player assaulting a unit in terrain to check to see if any of his models may be assaulting through terrain before moving any models.

So I'm not sure why people keep saying 'RAW' when the actual rules as written don't say what is being claimed.

The difference I see between what Gwar! is saying and what Yakface is saying looks to hinge on exactly what it is you are assaulting.

In Gwar!'s interpretation, you are assaulting unit to unit. There is no way to declare you are assaulting only a part of a unit. Since assault rules tell you explicitly you are bound by the movement rules with the 1" exception, that looks to mean that to declare an assault against the unit in difficult, you would need to declare before moving you are attempting to move in to difficult terrain. You can't get pulled in because an unoccupied model is in range in terrain, you must declare you are trying to get in, otherwise the assault can't happen.

In Yakface's interpretation, you declare unit to unit, regardless of whether partial of that unit is in terrain or not, then eyeball where everyone will end up and decide whether it is possible to meet all the assault placement requirements without entering terrain. If so, don't test. If not, test, and then you are bound by the roll and initiative penalty.

I think the intent is correct in Yakface's, but the RAW is correct in Gwar!'s. Having been doing it pretty much exactly as Yakface described myself, I can absolute say it is a pain in the rear. I hate having to eyeball the order the models will move and guess who will end up where and how much space there will be for bases to guess whether I would have to go into terrain or not. Using Gwar!'s method in this case would a much cleaner way of doing it, but both will work. I wouldn't object to whichever way my opponent wants to go, we just need to both be doing the same thing.

Kaaihn wrote:I think the intent is correct in Yakface's, but the RAW is correct in Gwar!'s.

I agree with this statement. The Intent is actually pretty clear I think. Well, as clear as anything else. But, In my Opinion, The rules just do not support the "intent".

We KNOW the intent is correct in Yak's (and my) assertion, since we have previous GW FAQs that specifically address this issue.............
And eyeballing isn't necessary. As pointed out, once the assault is declared but before anything moves, you can go ahead and measure.

That isn't always true at all though Don_Mondo. There have been plenty of times that you have to eyeball where models will end up so you can guess how to measure. Do I measure around that models base, or will it in theory have moved out of my way first? That kind of thing.

It is manageable, it can just be annoying.

Eyeballing is pretty easy when you've got 5 models assaulting a 10-model unit with only 3 of them in cover/terrain...

I don't see the RAW argument saying that the above would cause a Difficult Terrain check for the assaulting unit.

You measure your assault range after you declare your assault, if you find one of your models is going to 'have to' go through difficult terrain to get to a model in reach while at the same time contacting as many models as possible, then that is when you find out if a difficult terrain test is needed.

A hypothetical situation is this (and a very real possibility too)

If you are playing Apocalypse, and your opponent has a 100+ green mob, and the very rear guy happens to be the only one in difficult terrain and is clearly over 12" away, would you then claim the assaulter must roll difficult terrain test?

No, of course not. You measure after you declare your charge and find out if one is necessary first.

The rules to support this are in the very first line on page 36. "..if any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult terrain or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving." If you have no models going through difficult terrain, no test is required, and it says before 'moving', not measuring, and you measure before you move, so any idea of not being able to measure after you declare an assault is not correct.\

EDIT

I generally side with RAW, but I agree with don on this. If none of the models have to enter DT, it doesn't make sense to take the test. Yes, that isn't RAW, but there's also 'making the game fun for both players'.

I disagree with this, page 36 (listed above) tell us it is a model to model basis. If no attacking models need to enter DT, then no test is required. That is the RAW

I do not agree with Gwar! I agree with Yakface. Betcha won't put that in your sig

RAW does not support Gwar! in any way. Yes you do declare assaults against units but you determine DT on a model by model basis while following the rules for moving into assault -- which is after declaring assaults. That is RAW.

I still think it can be tricky to premeasure and know for sure you can avoid DT and still follow the rules for moving models into assault but I guess in those close cases you will need to work something out with your opponent.

I agree that page 36 says that the intent is model by model. However, you are told specifically to use normal movement rules. In normal movement rules, you absolutely may not voluntarily enter difficult without first declaring the unit is entering.

So, when you declare an assault, are you declaring your assault only against the models outside the terrain? No, you are declaring your assault against the unit. That means you just technically declared an assault against a model in difficult, which cannot be accomplished without also declaring your intent to enter difficult. Hence Gwar!'s RAW interpretation.

Page 36 alone tells me I wouldnt be rolling if no models need to go in terrain to meet all the assault requirements. But you don't use page 36 alone, you use it in conjuction with page 34, which must also be used in conjunction with pages 11-14. Page 14 especially has bearing to this issue, since it is the page that details moving into difficult terrain.

In practice I play it that I eyeball whether any models would enter difficult and roll if I would need too, to satisfy the assault requirements. I don't believe that is RAW, but it seems to be a happy middle ground between my opinion of RAW and RAI on this.

But we all agree that by Superspecialawesome RaW if even 1 Model is in Difficult Terrain the Assaulting unit must test before they make their assault move?

Gwar! wrote:But we all agree that by Superspecialawesome RaW if even 1 Model is in Difficult Terrain the Assaulting unit must test before they make their assault move?

I do not... yet. I still don't see the RaW argument for it. There was another thread regarding the meaning of "normal movement rules", possibly more than one, for a different rule or 12. I'm not 100% on what they were (though Biker assaults comes to mind). All of them have differing uses of "normal movement rules" that just don't jive.

Remember that measuring during movement is perfectly legal, and we're using "normal movement rules" during this part of the assault phase.

Wow, it really seems that most of you completely skipped over yak's post.

Pg 36 Assaulting THROUGH Cover

If, following the rules for moving assaulting models, any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move...

So if the assaulting squad must move Through terrain to assault, then it counts as assaulting through terrain (this includes if even one model must move through it). If the defending squad is partially in terrain, but you do not have to move Through terrain to assault him, then there is no penalty.

RAW right there.

Axyl wrote:Wow, it really seems that most of you completely skipped over yak's post.

Pg 36 Assaulting THROUGH Cover

If, following the rules for moving assaulting models, any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move...

So if the assaulting squad must move Through terrain to assault, then it counts as assaulting through terrain (this includes if even one model must move through it). If the defending squad is partially in terrain, but you do not have to move Through terrain to assault him, then there is no penalty.

RAW right there.

This is to what I'm referring, as well.

And you all seem to have skipped over mine too
-shrug-

I just disagree with it.

So are you allowed to say that you are declaring your assault against certain models, but not others? Because if I declare my assault against a model in terrain, and follow normal movement rules, I would be declaring I am moving into difficult else it would be impossible to assault that model.

If, once I declare my assault and entry to difficult I find I don't have to be in base to base with that model to fulfill the assault requirements, then I won't be. But I would still have had to roll difficult to even begin the criteria of assault. To skip that step means I am declaring I am only assaulting the models in a unit that are outside the terrain.

I don't think you can declare to only assault parts of a squad, you are either assaulting the whole thing or none.

Actually, after re-reading through this thread I think I may have mis-interpreted some stuff.

If any model in a squad will move through terrain (thus causing a terrain check) when assaulting then you strike at initiative 1 (unless you have assault grenades). Should be no more difficult than that.

Gwar might be right, I dunno. It's not really worth a two page argument.

The very first move of your assault is fairly cut and dry. After which, you can move your models in whatever 6" way you want to in order to get into base-to-base contact - albeit following normal rules for movement. This means that you can, indeed, measure and avoid entering difficult terrain. Given that you can measure during movement, it would go as follows:
1. Declare Assault
2. Measure to see if the closest models are indeed within 6" (12" for beasts and cavalry)
3. Measure to see if any models will have to enter said terrain
4. Apply DT test if applicable
5. If DT test prevents said assault - FAIL! DO NOT PASS GO!
6. If DT test still allows assault - PROFIT!

Axyl wrote:If any model in a squad will move through terrain (thus causing a terrain check) when assaulting then you strike at initiative 1 (unless you have assault grenades).

I believe - without the BGB with me - that it also refers to the assaulting squad moving through terrain. It's a big difference between that and referring to both squads.

Gwar! wrote:
If they hired me to clean up the FAQ's for a month I think I'd be getting decelerations of love and marriage via post.

somewhat off topic, but this statement intrigues me...

Flinty wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
If they hired me to clean up the FAQ's for a month I think I'd be getting decelerations of love and marriage via post.

somewhat off topic, but this statement intrigues me...

Because I would actually fix the major Problems with Erreta, not crappy wishy washy FAQ's. GW's excuse of "not everyone has the internet" is bs. Either you play without the Erreta with your mates, in which case everyone is on equal footing, you get the erreta off a mate from your local club who does have net, or you man up and get internet/go to a Internet Cafe if you are heading to a Tournie.

Edit: Post #4444. Woot!

Gwar! wrote:

Flinty wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
If they hired me to clean up the FAQ's for a month I think I'd be getting decelerations of love and marriage via post.

somewhat off topic, but this statement intrigues me...

Because I would actually fix the major Problems with Erreta, not crappy wishy washy FAQ's. GW's excuse of "not everyone has the internet" is bs. Either you play without the Erreta with your mates, in which case everyone is on equal footing, you get the erreta off a mate from your local club who does have net, or you man up and get internet/go to a Internet Cafe if you are heading to a Tournie.

I do, however, support Gwar's sentiment on this.

::edit for prepositionfail::

The rules stink. I think Gwar!'s interpretation is correct. None of the answers avoid fistfights though.

We try to play it where you:

1.) Declare assault
2.) Measure closest to closest (but don't move)
3.) Check to see if it is POSSIBLE for ANY of the assaulting models to get into base to base with ANY model in difficult terrain
4.) If so - you MUST roll for difficult terrian
5.) If not, you don't

This avoids people gaming difficult terrain on both sides - people who try to avoid going into difficult terrain by moving their assaulting unit in a way that technically follows the rules, but finds a way to avoid going into base to base with a guy in difficult terrain...and people who try to put one dude in difficult terrain to force a check no matter where the charge comes from.

But...I have little rules justification for this, other than using Yakface's interpretation that pre-measuring is only not allowed BEFORE declaring assaults, not after. It's still sketchy, but it helps avoid fights. Until, of course, you play someone outside your gaming group and the whole argument starts again...sigh.

lambadomy wrote:The rules stink. I think Gwar!'s interpretation is correct. None of the answers avoid fistfights though.

We try to play it where you:

1.) Declare assault
2.) Measure closest to closest (but don't move)
3.) Check to see if it is POSSIBLE for ANY of the assaulting models to get into base to base with ANY model in difficult terrain
4.) If so - you MUST roll for difficult terrian
5.) If not, you don't

This avoids people gaming difficult terrain on both sides - people who try to avoid going into difficult terrain by moving their assaulting unit in a way that technically follows the rules, but finds a way to avoid going into base to base with a guy in difficult terrain...and people who try to put one dude in difficult terrain to force a check no matter where the charge comes from.

But...I have little rules justification for this, other than using Yakface's interpretation that pre-measuring is only not allowed BEFORE declaring assaults, not after. It's still sketchy, but it helps avoid fights. Until, of course, you play someone outside your gaming group and the whole argument starts again...sigh.

that is exactly how page 36 says. First sentence too.

Gwar, I have to admire the unbending approach you take to RAW.

I'm on the fence about this one though, as an Ork I want to have my assaults work, and if I can't reach terrain, I don't want to have to roll for it. Most days I don't even bother shooting with my sluggas, so I could potentially be in range of multiple units I could legally assault. If a dev squad is 3 inches away but has one member in trees that are 10 inches away, I don't want to have to rely on my luck to not roll a 1 or 2 when I could have reached the tactical squad 5 inches away in the same direction without having to roll.

At the same time, this interpretation may be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen, as I can't tell you the last time I saw anyone at my local club buy frags for a unit that didn't already have them. With 1 Ork boy in trees, 29 stringing along to the other end of the table. Oh, lookie... you assaulted me without grenades! I1 for you! *Roll brick*.

So Gwar... what tournaments do you judge for, and how much swag can I get for winning them? In return, you can sig me all day long!

Gwar, you did a great job in quoting the rules, but a lousy job in showing how they support your assertions.


If the assaulting unit does not have to go into difficult terrain, there is nothing in the rules stating they need to take a difficult terrain test.

If part of the target unit is in terrain, but the assaulting models will not go there... then there is absolutely no reason to roll a DiffT test.

Yes, you declare an assault unit to unit, fine. There is absolutely no rule that says you must roll a diff terrain test just because some of the target unit is in difficult terrain. At least no rule that you have shown.

Lets use Don Mondo's example. A long string of orcs, and some stealers are assaulting one end, and the other end has one ork in difficult terrain. What rule states the stealers need to roll for difficult terrain?
They are not moving through difficult terrain....

Malecus wrote:Gwar, I have to admire the unbending approach you take to RAW.

The problem, is he has an unbending approach at assuming that his view is RAW, regardless of what the rules say.

Malecus wrote:Gwar, I have to admire the unbending approach you take to RAW.

Appriciated.

Malecus wrote:So Gwar... what tournaments do you judge for, and how much swag can I get for winning them? In return, you can sig me all day long!

None because I live in the Middle of Nowhere ;( When I move to Dublin sometime in the Winter I might get some done there

padixon wrote:

lambadomy wrote:The rules stink. I think Gwar!'s interpretation is correct. None of the answers avoid fistfights though.

We try to play it where you:

1.) Declare assault
2.) Measure closest to closest (but don't move)
3.) Check to see if it is POSSIBLE for ANY of the assaulting models to get into base to base with ANY model in difficult terrain
4.) If so - you MUST roll for difficult terrian
5.) If not, you don't

This avoids people gaming difficult terrain on both sides - people who try to avoid going into difficult terrain by moving their assaulting unit in a way that technically follows the rules, but finds a way to avoid going into base to base with a guy in difficult terrain...and people who try to put one dude in difficult terrain to force a check no matter where the charge comes from.

But...I have little rules justification for this, other than using Yakface's interpretation that pre-measuring is only not allowed BEFORE declaring assaults, not after. It's still sketchy, but it helps avoid fights. Until, of course, you play someone outside your gaming group and the whole argument starts again...sigh.

that is exactly how page 36 says. First sentence too.

Not quite. Page 36 says "...if a model will have to ...". That is different than Lambadomy's method of "if a model could". In Lambadomy's description, if an attacker had a choice between an unoccupied model in terrain within 6", and also an unoccupied model outside terrain within 6", he would still roll to test as it is possible for one of his models to get in contact with one of the models in terrain.

That is a nice middleground method if both people agree to it I think.

The only problem I have with seeing the RAW as something other than what Gwar! describes is that there is no ambiguity to the rule for entering difficult terrain on page 14; your unit must declare they are doing it before making any move. So if you assault a unit that has a model in difficult, but don't declare you are moving in to difficult, you are not allowed to step foot in the terrain using normal movement rules.

Remember, you make the assault attempt if you declare, whether you are found to be in range or not. Being within range determines if you succeed or fail. Regardless of the outcome, you made the attempt. If you don't declare to enter the difficult (so are not allowed in by normal movement rules), then how can you the attempt to assault a model in difficult? You are saying that you declare to assault that model as it is part of the unit you are declaring against, but refuse to enter difficult to do so. Wouldn't that automatically fail the assault?

This can absolutely lead to some gamey sounding tactics, like stringing a unit far forward with one model with a toe in difficult to force the attacker to roll difficult. It seems completely correct by the RAW, but it isn't how I choose to play it.

Kaaihn, I am not sure what you are concerned about. Yes, if any of the assaulting models will have to enter terrain, they unit needs to roll a test.
If the no models have to enter terrain, then the unit does not have to roll a test.

Why is that a problem?

There's RAW. And then there is playing the game.

This is one of those cases, where whatever the RAW says, I don't see a TO enforcing the strict RAW interpretation, I think they'd play like Yakface suggested. And I think if you insisted on playing otherwise, you'd run out of friends to play against. The game is meant to be fun, and we're supposed to be good sports.

Assaulting models still have to base as many as they can. If you have a ridonkulous squad of 30 Boyz and a Warboss assaulting a string of units with the last one in terrain, and no model is further than 6" from the Orks, you have to attempt to base up every single model, which in this case would mean the last guy who is in terrain.

If you only have three Orks, however, then yes, you can get away with it.

coredump wrote:Kaaihn, I am not sure what you are concerned about. Yes, if any of the assaulting models will have to enter terrain, they unit needs to roll a test.
If the no models have to enter terrain, then the unit does not have to roll a test.

Why is that a problem?

I don't have a concern or a problem. I noticed that there were people in my store playing it in very different ways, and it made me curious how others in many different areas play it. Hence the title of the post being "how do you play it", not "what is the RAW for...".

It spawned a discussion of what the RAW method is, but that is to be expected in a forum devoted to what the RAW answer is. I don't care what method my opponent uses, as long as I don't feel like they are adapting their method based on the situation to gain an advantage.

The problem is that there are situations where you CAN avoid going into difficult terrain, but also could end up in the terrain, depending on how you handle the charge move.

For example, say you have 3 charging models, and 5 defenders. The defenders are all close together, and two of them are in difficult terrain.

Following the steps in the charge rules (closest to closest, stay in coherency with someone who has moved, charge someone not in base to base already) you can just charge the three guys who are not in the terrain and call it a day.

The problem with this (gameplay wise) is that as the squads get larger and the situations less clear, it is possible to game the charge based around the "in coherency with a model that has already moved" to avoid going into the terrain. And the only way to figure out what might happen is to move all of the models. Which is of course a terrible way to make a decision about whether or not you needed to check for difficult terrain (well, I moved everyone and successfully avoided the terrain, guess I don't need to check - OR - well crap I couldn't do it, lets move them all back and then roll the check). There are situations where you can have, say, 4 models charging 5, with 2 in cover, and successfully avoid moving into the cover by abusing the "in coherency with someone who has already moved" part of the charging rules, for example. A result you wouldn't WANT based on the INTENT of the rules, but very doable.

So you have to figure out if you need to make the check based on something other than just "would they have to enter terrain" because they technically may be able to avoid it, with clever charging. You have to do it more on a "would they actually be able to charge the person in terrain, even if the charger will try to do some kind of gaming of the charge to avoid this"

It is definitely not RAW, unless you take sentences from the rulebook like "If you follow this sequence you will end up with all the models in the assaulting unit in coherency, having engaged as many enemy models as possible with as many assaulting models as possible" (bottom pg 34)as a RULE instead of just an interpretation of what they HOPE happens with their dumb rules. This also applies to the sentence "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible - no holding back" (2nd paragraph, page 34). This is useless as a rule once you follow the "must end its assault move in coherency with someone else who has moved" rule. As assaults get larger, there are plenty of ways to game this to avoid actually having this result.

lambadomy wrote:The problem with this (gameplay wise) is that as the squads get larger and the situations less clear, it is possible to game the charge based around the "in coherency with a model that has already moved" to avoid going into the terrain. And the only way to figure out what might happen is to move all of the models. Which is of course a terrible way to make a decision about whether or not you needed to check for difficult terrain (well, I moved everyone and successfully avoided the terrain, guess I don't need to check - OR - well crap I couldn't do it, lets move them all back and then roll the check).

I don't think anyone has ever argued that RAW is easy. In this case, yes indeed, the most effective barometer is whether or not you can do it, and then if not, moving the models back if you fail the DT test.

There are situations where you can have, say, 4 models charging 5, with 2 in cover, and successfully avoid moving into the cover by abusing the "in coherency with someone who has already moved" part of the charging rules, for example. A result you wouldn't WANT based on the INTENT of the rules, but very doable.

This is overridden by the attacker having to base as many models as possible.

So you have to figure out if you need to make the check based on something other than just "would they have to enter terrain" because they technically may be able to avoid it, with clever charging. You have to do it more on a "would they actually be able to charge the person in terrain, even if the charger will try to do some kind of gaming of the charge to avoid this"

Declare the charge, measure to see if the furthest models can reach each other, and if so, roll Difficult Terrain to find out how far you are able to assault. It's really not that hard.

"How do I play it?" is the question at hand. Generally, I lean toward Yak's interpretation and away from Gwar's.

RAW is a myth and appeals only to those suffering from OCD. GW does not believe in, nor promote it with their "fast and loose" system. Yea, based on page two's Most Important Rule, it seems they believe in RAMF (rules as mutually fun).
I personally ascribe to RAWWR! - rules as written when reasonable!

The real 'myth' here is the idea that RAW says you need to roll a diff terrain test just because some of the target unit is in terrain. That is *not* what the rules say.

Kaaihn: I did not mean in general, I was specifically asking about the post right above mine. I was not sure what the problem was that you were describing. Sorry I was not clear.

dietrich wrote:There's RAW. And then there is playing the game.

This is one of those cases, where whatever the RAW says, I don't see a TO enforcing the strict RAW interpretation, I think they'd play like Yakface suggested. And I think if you insisted on playing otherwise, you'd run out of friends to play against. The game is meant to be fun, and we're supposed to be good sports.

But I AM pointing out the RAW. . .playing by the RAW means that if no models from the assaulting unit can possibly enter difficult terrain while making their assault moves then no test is needed.

Others have (correctly) pointed this out as well.

1) You declare your assault.
2) You must then see if assaulting the enemy may possibly result in your assaulting models entering difficult terrain (which requires measurement).
3) If there is absolutely no chance that your unit will have to move through terrain (either they don't have sufficient movement distance to do so or the formation of the enemy unit completely precludes the possibility) then the assaulting unit does not have to take a difficult terrain test.


All of this is logically supported by the rules.


Now, exactly what happens when an assaulting unit may possibly end up charging through terrain (i.e. it appears as though they may or may not have to move through the terrain depending on how the assault moves play out) is something that is not explicitly covered by the RAW, so players have to end up making some assumptions on how to play in this situation.

But that does not change the fact that if all models in the unit cannot possibly end up moving through terrain with their assault moves then there is nothing in the rules supporting the idea that they have to take a difficult terrain test.

Gwar! wrote:

Flinty wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
If they hired me to clean up the FAQ's for a month I think I'd be getting decelerations of love and marriage via post.

somewhat off topic, but this statement intrigues me...

Because I would actually fix the major Problems with Erreta, not crappy wishy washy FAQ's. GW's excuse of "not everyone has the internet" is bs. Either you play without the Erreta with your mates, in which case everyone is on equal footing, you get the erreta off a mate from your local club who does have net, or you man up and get internet/go to a Internet Cafe if you are heading to a Tournie.

Edit: Post #4444. Woot!

I was actually trying to highlight the amusing typo in the original post

"Decelerating Love" sounds like a particularly poor band name

GWAR read the thing you just quoted, very slowly and multiple times (you may notice a highlighted word!)

if any model in the assaulting unit needs to go through difficult terrain...

Now please explain me why i NEED to roll if i can reach a model standing out in the open?

I would hope anyone GW hires to clean up their "Erratta" could spell the word at least.

Yes, I am "decelerating" my disdain for Gwar!.

Anywho, the rules say exactly what Yak/Don/Core are saying, and how my group plays it.

Gwar's assertion is a homebrew easyfix.

yakface wrote:But I AM pointing out the RAW. . .playing by the RAW means that if no models from the assaulting unit can possibly enter difficult terrain while making their assault moves then no test is needed.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I think a good way of thinking of this, which happens to support Yak's idea, is to consider the attacking/defending units in different situations.

Say, a 1 man unit charges two terminators which are both within 6", but the farthest is in cover. The 1 man needs to charge the nearest terminator, which precludes him from getting into cover. So NO dt roll.
Say now a 2 man unit charges the same terminators. The second man has to charge the terminator in cover (to fulfill the maximizing btb contact, if I am not mistaken). Since he has to move through cover to not break that rule, he needs the roll.
Now, assume the above situation, but with 3 terminators, with 2 out of cover. The charging fellows can declare that they do not intend to enter the cover (as per the movement rules) since they can choose to engage only the outter two terminators (fulfilling the max base to base requirement). Thus no dt roll is needed.
Now, yet one more example, say there are two IG charging two terminators, with one terminator in cover. However, the terminator in cover is >6" away (measured AFTER the charge was declared, which is legal). Since the IG can not possibly make contact with that terminator, the requirement to be in base to base with him is removed, and so both IG can charge the fellow out of cover, and thus declare that they have no intention of going into cover, and avoid the DT roll.

*whew*

So, the rules of thumb would seem to be:

1: Are there >2 models in the attacking unit that are within 6" of a model that requires moving through cover to be in BTB? (Remember that the closest two models need to make contact.)
2: If so, are there enough models in the defending unit that do not require moving through cover to satisfy the BTB maximization requirement?

If 1 is false, you do not need to move through cover as you can not reach the models in cover with anyone.
If 1 is true but 2 is also true, then you don't need to move through cover as you can satisfy your BTB requirement without moving through cover.
Otherwise, you need to make the roll.

Wehrkind wrote:I think a good way of thinking of this, which happens to support Yak's idea, is to consider the attacking/defending units in different situations.

Say, a 1 man unit charges two terminators which are both within 6", but the farthest is in cover. The 1 man needs to charge the nearest terminator, which precludes him from getting into cover. So NO dt roll.
Say now a 2 man unit charges the same terminators. The second man has to charge the terminator in cover (to fulfill the maximizing btb contact, if I am not mistaken). Since he has to move through cover to not break that rule, he needs the roll.
Now, assume the above situation, but with 3 terminators, with 2 out of cover. The charging fellows can declare that they do not intend to enter the cover (as per the movement rules) since they can choose to engage only the outter two terminators (fulfilling the max base to base requirement). Thus no dt roll is needed.
Now, yet one more example, say there are two IG charging two terminators, with one terminator in cover. However, the terminator in cover is >6" away (measured AFTER the charge was declared, which is legal). Since the IG can not possibly make contact with that terminator, the requirement to be in base to base with him is removed, and so both IG can charge the fellow out of cover, and thus declare that they have no intention of going into cover, and avoid the DT roll.

*whew*

So, the rules of thumb would seem to be:

1: Are there >2 models in the attacking unit that are within 6" of a model that requires moving through cover to be in BTB? (Remember that the closest two models need to make contact.)
2: If so, are there enough models in the defending unit that do not require moving through cover to satisfy the BTB maximization requirement?

If 1 is false, you do not need to move through cover as you can not reach the models in cover with anyone.
If 1 is true but 2 is also true, then you don't need to move through cover as you can satisfy your BTB requirement without moving through cover.
Otherwise, you need to make the roll.

That's what I was trying to get at earlier. You put it in a much more concise manner.

How about this to help some of you understand the RAW of this rule:

Since you have to follow all normal movement rules for assault with the exception of the 1" rule, turn it around and apply the same movement rules to the unit that you intend to assault that has one model in difficult terrain.

That unit has to move as slow as it's slowest model. One model in difficult terrain will force the entire unit to take a difficult terrain test to move.

So to assault this unit that has the conditions and restrictions of being in difficult terrain, you would have to roll for difficult terrain to see if you can even assault in the first place.

Brother Ramses wrote:How about this to help some of you understand the RAW of this rule:

Since you have to follow all normal movement rules for assault with the exception of the 1" rule, turn it around and apply the same movement rules to the unit that you intend to assault that has one model in difficult terrain.

That unit has to move as slow as it's slowest model. One model in difficult terrain will force the entire unit to take a difficult terrain test to move.

So to assault this unit that has the conditions and restrictions of being in difficult terrain, you would have to roll for difficult terrain to see if you can even assault in the first place.

Sorry, but backwards logic does not work. Since the assaulting unit is the unit that is moving, the part of the "move as slow as it's slowest model" rule to which you are referring would only apply if the assaulting unit was in difficult terrain at the beginning of the declared assault.

If you wanted to use your logic, it would mean that you would have to apply rules that affect one unit at a given time to every single unit on the board.

So if the unit you are planning to assault is considered to be in difficult terrain, per the rules in the BRB, you just simply choose to ignore that condition?

This seems like an awesome Catch-22 statement.

If you can reach the models, you must go through cover and therefore can't reach them. However if you can't reach them you're not going through cover and therefore can reach them....

Brother Ramses wrote:So if the unit you are planning to assault is considered to be in difficult terrain, per the rules in the BRB, you just simply choose to ignore that condition?

If the assaulting unit doesn't need to enter that terrain in order to conform to the rules of moving assaulting units, of course I would ignore it.

Gwar! wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
You know Gwar , if GW have hired you while their web forum was still up , they might not have to close it down.

If they hired me to clean up the FAQ's for a month I think I'd be getting decelerations of love and marriage via post.

IS it a burden carrying that large of an ego around all the time?

Heres the thing. Following the rules for moving, you may not enter difficult without declaring prior to moving. If you don't declare, you may not enter.

If, following the rules for moving, any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult as part of it's assault move, it must take the test prior to moving. That is reiterating the standard difficult movement rule and telling you it applies to the assault move.

Now, set aside the whole assault a unit versus assault a model bit, and assume we can do it by model for the moment.

You declare your assault of your five guys versus the enemies six guys, one of which is in difficult terrain. If you don't declare to enter difficult right now, before you move a single model, you will not be allowed in.

Say you choose not to declare. You start moving your five guys and are able to get each of them into base to base with an unoccupied model outside difficult. Perfect, all five attacking models are in coherency, and are in base contact with enemy models that are not in base contact with anyone else.

So, same example, you don't declare, but when you start moving you find that due to tight quarters you can only get four of your guys in base to base with unoccupied models. You have a fifth guy that must attempt to get to base to base. The sixth guy in the defending squad is within 6" of your unoccupied model, but is in difficult. You didn't declare difficult before moving, you aren't allowed to go in to the terrain after him. So...the assault does not fail! Read the assault criteria. You must move to an unoccupied model if possible. That sixth guy isn't possible, so you move to satisfy the next criteria, which is to be in base to base with a model already in base to base with an enemy. If that fails, you just get within 2" of one of your other models that is in base to base, or, baring that, that model isn't part of the fight right now, just stay in coherency.

Think about that for a moment. By not declaring difficult, I can dogpile my five guys on one lone enemy model outside difficult, even if there are 20 enemy models right behind him, but in difficult. They will join the fight on pile-in, sure, but I just short circuited the assaulting through cover penalties. Unless you are assaulting an enemy that is fully in difficult, you could bypass the assault penalties every time. Is that really any different abuse than the idea of stringing a unit out so the one rear-most model still in difficult forces the attacker to roll no matter what?

Think about that for a moment. By not declaring difficult, I can dogpile my five guys on one lone enemy model outside difficult, even if there are 20 enemy models right behind him, but in difficult. They will join the fight on pile-in, sure, but I just short circuited the assaulting through cover penalties.

No,No,No. You measure before moving. If you have models within range of enemies in DT and no other models to get into contact with, you take the DT test. There is no "declaring" or "not declaring" you MUST move into combat with as many enemies as possible, so measure it and figure it out before moving. Pretty simple.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

Think about that for a moment. By not declaring difficult, I can dogpile my five guys on one lone enemy model outside difficult, even if there are 20 enemy models right behind him, but in difficult. They will join the fight on pile-in, sure, but I just short circuited the assaulting through cover penalties.

No,No,No. You measure before moving. If you have models within range of enemies in DT and no other models to get into contact with, you take the DT test. There is no "declaring" or "not declaring" you MUST move into combat with as many enemies as possible, so measure it and figure it out before moving. Pretty simple.

The overarching rule of assault is that every model must attempt to engage, which is defined as making an assault move. An assault move is a move that follows all standard movement rules, plus a specific list of constraints plus the 1" exception.

The key in my example is "as possible". By normal movement rules, if you don't declare before moving that you are going in to difficult, you are not allowed in at all. So it would not be possible to get in base to base with the models in the terrain. Page 14. The only time you are told you 'must' go through difficult would be if the straight line from closest to closest goes through difficult. The other times it is left up to you and how you make your assault move.

If you don't declare difficult, you move as many of your models as possible into base to base with the enemy. That would be only the enemy outside terrain, as it is not possible to go after the ones inside since you didnt declare and roll before moving. If closest to closest isn't through terrain, and you don't declare difficult, the assault still succeeds. All the rest of your models must now move following normal movement rules, with some additional constraints as listed on page 34.

The first constraint is stay in coherency, the second is get to base to base if possible with an unoccupied model. If the only unoccupied model in range is in difficult you aren't allowed to enter, that model isn't possible to reach. It most definitely does not say the assault fails if this happens; you just go to the third constraint, which is go to base to base if possible with a model already in base to base. If not possible, be in support range, if that isn't possible, just stay in coherency.

Just so it doesn't get lost, remember for the sake of argument we are stipulating that you don't have to roll difficult automatically just because one model of the targeted unit is in difficult. I don't think this is RAI, but it looks correct by pure RAW, setting aside the one stipulation.

How Kaaihn is describing is how I've been playing it.

I agree with Kaaihn.

I think the most important statement of the assault rules is that you move your closest model to their closest model FIRST, before any DT tests are made. Thus if the first model is within range and doesn't have to make a DT test, then the assault MUST be able to occur.

Kaaihn wrote:
The overarching rule of assault is that every model must attempt to engage, which is defined as making an assault move. An assault move is a move that follows all standard movement rules, plus a specific list of constraints plus the 1" exception.

The key in my example is "as possible". By normal movement rules, if you don't declare before moving that you are going in to difficult, you are not allowed in at all. So it would not be possible to get in base to base with the models in the terrain. Page 14. The only time you are told you 'must' go through difficult would be if the straight line from closest to closest goes through difficult. The other times it is left up to you and how you make your assault move.

If you don't declare difficult, you move as many of your models as possible into base to base with the enemy. That would be only the enemy outside terrain, as it is not possible to go after the ones inside since you didnt declare and roll before moving. If closest to closest isn't through terrain, and you don't declare difficult, the assault still succeeds. All the rest of your models must now move following normal movement rules, with some additional constraints as listed on page 34.

The first constraint is stay in coherency, the second is get to base to base if possible with an unoccupied model. If the only unoccupied model in range is in difficult you aren't allowed to enter, that model isn't possible to reach. It most definitely does not say the assault fails if this happens; you just go to the third constraint, which is go to base to base if possible with a model already in base to base. If not possible, be in support range, if that isn't possible, just stay in coherency.

Just so it doesn't get lost, remember for the sake of argument we are stipulating that you don't have to roll difficult automatically just because one model of the targeted unit is in difficult. I don't think this is RAI, but it looks correct by pure RAW, setting aside the one stipulation.

You keep mentioning the basic movement rules for moving into difficult terrain but those are the basic (general) rules. The assault rules are more specific regarding difficult terrain and therefore must be obeyed.

In particular: Assaulting models *must* end their move in certain ways and doing so may force them to enter terrain. I know you have quoted "where possible" as the exception to them not having to enter terrain, but that doesn't match up with the rule given on page 36:

"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."


This passage is crystal clear that when FOLLOWING the rules for moving assaulting models on page 34, any model that HAS TO (i.e. is 'forced to') go through difficult terrain means that the unit will have to take a difficult terrain test.

Depending on what enemy unit you are assaulting you do not have a choice. . .the rules for moving assaulting models may dictate that you must do so.

Trasvi wrote:I agree with Kaaihn.

I think the most important statement of the assault rules is that you move your closest model to their closest model FIRST, before any DT tests are made. Thus if the first model is within range and doesn't have to make a DT test, then the assault MUST be able to occur.

That is incorrect. As shown in the rule I quoted above you must make a judgement call before moving the unit and take a difficult terrain test if you believe that your models will have to enter terrain as part of their assault.

yakface wrote:You keep mentioning the basic movement rules for moving into difficult terrain but those are the basic (general) rules. The assault rules are more specific regarding difficult terrain and therefore must be obeyed.

In particular: Assaulting models *must* end their move in certain ways and doing so may force them to enter terrain. I know you have quoted "where possible" as the exception to them not having to enter terrain, but that doesn't match up with the rule given on page 36:

"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."


This passage is crystal clear that when FOLLOWING the rules for moving assaulting models on page 34, any model that HAS TO (i.e. is 'forced to') go through difficult terrain means that the unit will have to take a difficult terrain test.

Depending on what enemy unit you are assaulting you do not have a choice. . .the rules for moving assaulting models may dictate that you must do so.

Yes, if you will have to go through difficult as part of your assault move you have to take the test before moving. That matches with the normal movement rule that you must declare and test for difficult prior to moving.

So, what in an assault move would force you to be in difficult? Well, if you are the closest model, you must travel in a straight line to the closest enemy model. That might force you in to difficult. All the other criteria are "if possible". If the closest to closest isn't forced in (meaning you havn't been forced to declare a test for the assault to succeed in the first place), what in the assault rules forces you to step in difficult?

You may not get a bunch of your models in the fight, but there is no requirement to. The requirement is to attempt to engage by making an assault move. If you aren't allowed in the difficult, you go down the assault move special criteria list, and meet the first one possible without going into difficult.

Now, I will say that I have not played this method yet personally. It seems correct from reading the book to me is all. I'm going to hold off on further comment until I actually play a game or two and use this method over the old method I used that looks rather flawed, and see if there are any discrepancies that become noticeable in play.

An easy solution to this issue would be, in your move phase, to move your entire squad so they were all exactly 6 inches away from the closest enemy model and more than 6 inches away from any enemy in cover.

While it's very much unsupported by any existing rules, I cast my vote for a new ruling stating that one can ignore difficult terrain tests for assault purposes (if not at all times) in exchange for taking dangerous terrain checks for any model moving through the terrain, a second check (or failing on 2's) if the terrain is actually classified as dangerous.

So, what in an assault move would force you to be in difficult? Well, if you are the closest model, you must travel in a straight line to the closest enemy model. That might force you in to difficult. All the other criteria are "if possible". If the closest to closest isn't forced in (meaning you havn't been forced to declare a test for the assault to succeed in the first place), what in the assault rules forces you to step in difficult?

Uh, the requirement that you must endeavor to get as many models in B2B as possible?

I play it as depending on WHICH models you come into base contact with, I they are ALL out of cover then no bonus. If you have to charge THROUGH cover then yes that is I1 for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Nurgleboy77: Is it?

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

So, what in an assault move would force you to be in difficult? Well, if you are the closest model, you must travel in a straight line to the closest enemy model. That might force you in to difficult. All the other criteria are "if possible". If the closest to closest isn't forced in (meaning you havn't been forced to declare a test for the assault to succeed in the first place), what in the assault rules forces you to step in difficult?

Uh, the requirement that you must endeavor to get as many models in B2B as possible?

If you are not allowed in the difficult terrain because you did not declare and test prior to moving, those models are not possible to get to B2B with. Move down and try and fulfill the next criteria.

You are only forced to roll difficult if there is no possible assault move available to you without going in to difficult. As 'stay in coherency' is a possible assault move, it is very rare that you will be forced to enter difficult, barring the first closest to closest move.

You must end always endeavor to get the most models into b2b. The list of criteria are in order of importance not "pick one to do". so only staying in coherency isn't enough, you must move into models in cover if they are withnin range.

The argument that you failed to declare moving into DT smacks of the idea that a unit with Rage or similar "must Assault" rules could fire Rapid Fire weapons to get around it.

You cannot avoid the DT if models are within range to be assaulted, and there are sufficient models in the attacking squad to get to them.

Measure after declaring the assault intentions, if you must enter DT to fulfill the assault criteria, take the DT test.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:You must end always endeavor to get the most models into b2b.

This is incorrect. What you are told is that you must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of your models as possible. Making a legal assault move is engaging.

You are given instructions on how to handle closest to closest. Once that is determined, you must complete a legal assault move with the rest of your models, in any sequence you desire. This follows normal movement rules, except for the 1" rule as well as some additionally defined criteria.

The second criteria being to move to B2B with an unoccupied model starts with "If possible,...". If the assaulting model may not enter difficult terrain as per the normal movement rules, any unoccupied models in difficult terrain are not possible to get to B2B with at that time. Keep going down the criteria list, and fulfill the first criteria you legally can.

The only time you are required to enter difficult terrain to fulfill the assault criteria is for the closest to closest move.

The second criteria being to move to B2B with an unoccupied model starts with "If possible,...". If the assaulting model may not enter difficult terrain as per the normal movement rules, any unoccupied models in difficult terrain are not possible to get to B2B with at that time.

This is a very flimsy argument, the rules for assaulting through cover on page 36 explain that you determine if models must move through cover to reach the enemy and roll for the DT test.

There is no "Declaring" or "not declaring" you have no choice. You determine if you need to go through it before moving, then roll.

Not flimsy in the least. If the only legal assault move available to you is to move through cover, then you must test before moving, absolutely.

As far as declaring difficult or not, of course you do. An assault move is a standard move with a few extra criteria thrown in. In a standard move, you declare if you are attempting to go into difficult before moving your first model. If you don't declare, none of your models may enter the difficult once you start moving.

As far as I can tell, the point of contention here is whether or not the difficult terrain test, and entering difficult terrain, is optional for models after the first.

On the one side, there is the line on page 36 "If, following the rules for moving sassault models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving." and the second bullet point on page 34 "If possible, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."

On the other side, we have the quote "If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he wants to try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move. If he chooses not to, the unit moves as normal but may not enter difficult terrain."

There should also be an additional point of contention, then, for the lines in the second paragraph on page 34, "Move [the first model] into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route. Roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if necessary..."

Let's assume that there are two one model units, A and B, three inches apart with a 2" x 2" section of difficult terrain exactly between the two models. The question is whether or not model A is required to travel through the difficult terrain to assault B, or whether model A can go around the difficult terrain. So, does "shortest possible path" mean "shortest possible path on the board" or "shortest possible path using all available options".

I assume that if the 2" x 2" section was impassible, it couldn't be part of the shortest path. But now I'm uncertain whether or not the difficult terrain test for the first model is optional if an alternate route exists.

solkan wrote:Let's assume that there are two one model units, A and B, three inches apart with a 2" x 2" section of difficult terrain exactly between the two models. The question is whether or not model A is required to travel through the difficult terrain to assault B, or whether model A can go around the difficult terrain. So, does "shortest possible path" mean "shortest possible path on the board" or "shortest possible path using all available options".

I assume that if the 2" x 2" section was impassible, it couldn't be part of the shortest path. But now I'm uncertain whether or not the difficult terrain test for the first model is optional if an alternate route exists.

Great question! My take on this is, if you declare an assault but don't declare moving in to difficult, the shortest possible route for closest to closest would be up to your assault distance without entering difficult. If there is no possible route around the difficult for closest to closest though, the assault does not automatically fail because there is a special provision that forces you to enter the difficult. The possibilities for what your closest to closest route could be have just changed, so now try and get to B2B through the difficult. If you still can't make it, now you failed.

Kaaihn wrote:

solkan wrote:Let's assume that there are two one model units, A and B, three inches apart with a 2" x 2" section of difficult terrain exactly between the two models. The question is whether or not model A is required to travel through the difficult terrain to assault B, or whether model A can go around the difficult terrain. So, does "shortest possible path" mean "shortest possible path on the board" or "shortest possible path using all available options".

I assume that if the 2" x 2" section was impassible, it couldn't be part of the shortest path. But now I'm uncertain whether or not the difficult terrain test for the first model is optional if an alternate route exists.

Great question! My take on this is, if you declare an assault but don't declare moving in to difficult, the shortest possible route for closest to closest would be up to your assault distance without entering difficult. If there is no possible route around the difficult for closest to closest though, the assault does not automatically fail because there is a special provision that forces you to enter the difficult. The possibilities for what your closest to closest route could be have just changed, so now try and get to B2B through the difficult. If you still can't make it, now you failed.

Ah, but you can't have it both ways. If you can't go into difficult terrain unless you declare it, then you don't have the second chance to decide whether to make the difficult terrain test. If the first model gets a second chance to decide whether to enter difficult terrain, then all of the other models can get a second chance by the same reasoning.

solkan wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:

solkan wrote:Let's assume that there are two one model units, A and B, three inches apart with a 2" x 2" section of difficult terrain exactly between the two models. The question is whether or not model A is required to travel through the difficult terrain to assault B, or whether model A can go around the difficult terrain. So, does "shortest possible path" mean "shortest possible path on the board" or "shortest possible path using all available options".

I assume that if the 2" x 2" section was impassible, it couldn't be part of the shortest path. But now I'm uncertain whether or not the difficult terrain test for the first model is optional if an alternate route exists.

Great question! My take on this is, if you declare an assault but don't declare moving in to difficult, the shortest possible route for closest to closest would be up to your assault distance without entering difficult. If there is no possible route around the difficult for closest to closest though, the assault does not automatically fail because there is a special provision that forces you to enter the difficult. The possibilities for what your closest to closest route could be have just changed, so now try and get to B2B through the difficult. If you still can't make it, now you failed.

Ah, but you can't have it both ways. If you can't go into difficult terrain unless you declare it, then you don't have the second chance to decide whether to make the difficult terrain test. If the first model gets a second chance to decide whether to enter difficult terrain, then all of the other models can get a second chance by the same reasoning.

Nobody gets a second chance to decide. If you decide not to, you may be forced to whether you like it or not for the closest to closest because there is a special rule governing that. That rule does not extend to the rest of the models though; it is only a special condition governing the closest to closest model.

There is one time to check if you are forced to roll difficult, and that is closest to closest having no other path available. The rest of the models are bound by the first ones result. If he moves without choosing or being forced to test difficult, they can't step in to difficult, and there is nothing that would force them to on a model by model basis. They also cannot then choose to test for difficult even if they want to; that opportunity has passed.

SECOND EDIT: I notice I was wrong about the models the assaulter moved having the option to pick and choose models that are not the closest to them. You will probably want to disregard the rest of this particular post.

Maybe I went too far. I was hoping I could demonstrate a case where after declaring the assault you could arrange your model to model movement in such a way that you could restrict a model in your unit from having to enter difficult terrain.



Quality here is atrocious. I am of the school of thought that the assaulting player while following the RAW should be able to assault a unit that is partially in difficult terrain without being able to roll a difficult terrain test provided that they can demonstrate that they can avoid needing to enter it.

EDIT:
I hate paint. I will leave it this image in the case that anyone may want to strain their eyes reading the thought I was trying to share.. Again, I am sorry.

Kaaihn wrote:

solkan wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:

solkan wrote:Let's assume that there are two one model units, A and B, three inches apart with a 2" x 2" section of difficult terrain exactly between the two models. The question is whether or not model A is required to travel through the difficult terrain to assault B, or whether model A can go around the difficult terrain. So, does "shortest possible path" mean "shortest possible path on the board" or "shortest possible path using all available options".

I assume that if the 2" x 2" section was impassible, it couldn't be part of the shortest path. But now I'm uncertain whether or not the difficult terrain test for the first model is optional if an alternate route exists.

Great question! My take on this is, if you declare an assault but don't declare moving in to difficult, the shortest possible route for closest to closest would be up to your assault distance without entering difficult. If there is no possible route around the difficult for closest to closest though, the assault does not automatically fail because there is a special provision that forces you to enter the difficult. The possibilities for what your closest to closest route could be have just changed, so now try and get to B2B through the difficult. If you still can't make it, now you failed.

Ah, but you can't have it both ways. If you can't go into difficult terrain unless you declare it, then you don't have the second chance to decide whether to make the difficult terrain test. If the first model gets a second chance to decide whether to enter difficult terrain, then all of the other models can get a second chance by the same reasoning.

Nobody gets a second chance to decide. If you decide not to, you may be forced to whether you like it or not for the closest to closest because there is a special rule governing that. That rule does not extend to the rest of the models though; it is only a special condition governing the closest to closest model.

There is one time to check if you are forced to roll difficult, and that is closest to closest having no other path available. The rest of the models are bound by the first ones result. If he moves without choosing or being forced to test difficult, they can't step in to difficult, and there is nothing that would force them to on a model by model basis. They also cannot then choose to test for difficult even if they want to; that opportunity has passed.

The exact same logic applies to the first moving model as applies to the second and subsequent models--there exists a path which would be possible if the unit took a difficult terrain test. If it is necessary for the first model to enter difficult terrain because it is possible to do so, whether or not the player wishes to, then it is necessary for all of the models to enter difficult terrain because it is possible to do so, whether or not the player wishes to.

If you see the exact same standard applying to every model, then every model that moves follows the rule of being forced to go to closest. Start the assault by moving closest to closest, then move in any sequence you desire, but whatever the sequence, every model when it moves has to go to the closest unoccupied (DT tests being forced as applicable), or the closest occupied barring that (DT test forced as applicable again), or support range barring both of those, or just be in cohesion.

That is the way I was playing it before, and what it requires is to visualize and/or premeasure the move of every model in the unit before moving. Even if you have more enemies outside terrain than attackers, you still have to eyeball whether there is room for all of them to get to B2B with unoccupied models outside the terrain. Base sizes can be a huge factor here.

I think both can technically be argued as correct, but one is most definitely cleaner and easier than the other. I've started playing it the way I have described in the last few posts (which matches the majority in my local store), and assaults have been far smoother.

solkan wrote:The exact same logic applies to the first moving model as applies to the second and subsequent models--there exists a path which would be possible if the unit took a difficult terrain test. If it is necessary for the first model to enter difficult terrain because it is possible to do so, whether or not the player wishes to, then it is necessary for all of the models to enter difficult terrain because it is possible to do so, whether or not the player wishes to.

I just want to mention that the requirement to move into base to base contact with an enemy model that is not engaged might force one model in the assaulting players unit to come into contact with a model that is in an enemy unit that is not even in the unit that the assault was declare upon. If there is a likelihood you may have an opportunity to move into assault with an enemy model in range that is not in the unit you declared your assault on you would then assert that I would have to roll a DT in that case too? I do not understand how some of you have come to determine that simply having the possibility that you could engage a model in difficult terrain automatically means you have to roll as though you will be entering it. The RAW indicates that it only occurs if any model (singular) in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move.

I keep seeing people saying that you must move as many models in B2B as possible when assaulting. Kaaihn touched on this, but that is not the requirement of the rules. YOU MUST FOLLOW THE RULES FOR MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS, as detailed on p34.

This part is clear enough, the assaulting attacker determines the sequence of moving models after moving closest to closest. They are still constrained by attaching to unattached enemy models first, any unattached model second, and within 2" of an attached friendly third, but it is at the attacker's discretion as to who goes where.

It's also perfectly clear that if a model , while going through the moving assaulting models process, would have move through cover, the unit must make a DT test before moving.


The part I find less concrete, and therefore disagree with yakface on, is if this condition causes the assault to immediately fail, or whether a DT test is then taken, forcing the models to realign, as per the rules on p34. I don't believe this is cut and dry in either direction, because of inherently ambiguous wording in the Assaulting through cover rules on p36.

By yak's interpretation, since the process on p34 requires movement of models within a unit, then the necessitation of a DT test before the unit moves invalidates the rule. At this point he interprets that the assault fails. Please note that this resolution is not detailed in either Assaulting through cover, or moving assaulting units. The only conditions where the assault concretely fails in the rulebook is during one of 2 conditions:

1. p34, Moving Assaulting Models: "If the closest model is found not to be within move distance of the enemy, that assault does not happen and no model is moved." Do note that this declares that you must roll for DT as necessary, meaning you are NOT forced to declare a DT test before moving closest to closest. Although this only pertains to the rules for closest to closest, it does set precedent for the additional rules on p36.

2. on p36, moving through assault addresses the consequences of a forced DT test. The first downside "...is that such tests might cause the assault to fail altogether IF THE CLOSEST MODEL CANNOT MAKE IT INTO CONTACT WITH THE ENEMY."

The real question arises with the statement that, while moving via p34 rules, "the UNIT must take the relevant terrain test before moving." A second, equally valid interpretation can be derived from the wording of both sections. Preceding this statement, the p34 rules, along with the first portion of the first sentence on p36, were directed at moving MODELS...NOT UNITS. Since this conditional pertains strictly to units which are made up of multiple models. It is rational to reason that since the the unit has not finished its move, it has in fact, not violated the rule of taking a terrain test before moving.

I will say that there is enough ambiguity present for either interpretation to be legitimate. Either way you look at it, however, disallowing an assault from any situation other than the 2 previously listed situations is clearly not RAW.

nardman wrote:I keep seeing people saying that you must move as many models in B2B as possible when assaulting. Kaaihn touched on this, but that is not the requirement of the rules. YOU MUST FOLLOW THE RULES FOR MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS, as detailed on p34.

Exactly. The requirement is that every model must make a legal assault move, not specifically that every model must be in B2B. The requirements for a legal assault move are detailed in the assault rules. You simply fulfill the highest requirement in the list possible with the model you are moving.

As to DT, you do not move the closest to closest at all until you determine if you can make it to B2B without going through DT. This is one of those places where you must measure to determine if a rule will effect you.

-Declare assault
-Determine if closest to closest requires moving through DT. Declare DT if you want to, or if you are forced to based on closest to closest only.
-Move closest to closest
-Move rest of models in any order you want, meeting the highest criteria possible in the list. Remember if you did not roll DT, it is not possible to enter it at this point; enemy models in DT are not possible, so continue down the criteria list until you get to the first criteria you can meet with your assault move.

Nice and easy, you don't have to reset models back to original positions or place markers or any of that kind of thing. For what it is worth to people, I sent this 'flowchart' of assault to GW to see if I had it correct. They agreed I did. That's more than good enough for me.