If a squad shoots and blows up a transport, they may then assault the unit inside. If a squad shoots and blows up chronus's tank, may they then assault him if he comes out?

No, because Chronos is not a Passenger and has his own special rules of what to do if the tank he is in is assploded.

Thats what i thought. Do you know the page number for where it says you can assault people that've been blown out of their transport? Can't find it, but i remember it was somewhere weird.

Page 67, Paragraph above the Dedicated Transports Box

I'm curious on the reasoning behind this one. I'll assume for now that you are correct about him not being a passenger. However, assuming he survived, wasn't he a part of the unit you shot (being an upgrade character and all)? What would stop you from assaulting him, you shot his unit?

If you are claiming he becomes a new unit after his survival, then wouldn't the same apply to any IC that was part of a squad?

Example: A chaplain attaches to an assault squad. The assault squad is gunned down to the man, leaving the chappie all alone. He's now his own unit.

Is your argument that since the chaplain in now a different unit than was shot at he cannot be assaulted? Because if that's what you are saying about Chronus, then you'd have to apply it here as well.

Can you explain what is different about Chronus that makes him unassaultable?

Kyrolon wrote:I'm curious on the reasoning behind this one. I'll assume for now that you are correct about him not being a passenger. However, assuming he survived, wasn't he a part of the unit you shot (being an upgrade character and all)? What would stop you from assaulting him, you shot his unit?

If you are claiming he becomes a new unit after his survival, then wouldn't the same apply to any IC that was part of a squad?

Example: A chaplain attaches to an assault squad. The assault squad is gunned down to the man, leaving the chappie all alone. He's now his own unit.

Is your argument that since the chaplain in now a different unit than was shot at he cannot be assaulted? Because if that's what you are saying about Chronus, then you'd have to apply it here as well.

Can you explain what is different about Chronus that makes him unassaultable?

Because the rules specifically state the only time you may declare an assault against a unit other than the one you shot at is in the case of a Transport and Passengers.

Your example of a Chaplain and Marines is incorrect, for the following reason. The Chaplain and the Marines form a Single unit when he is attached, as per the rules on IC's joining units. IC's may only ever leave a unit in the Movement phase. Therefore, if all the Marines die to anything but Dangerous terrain tests (now how embarrassing would that be, especially in the Opponents shooting Phase[Disregarding Lash Of Course] Oy Vey!), the Chaplain remains part of the same unit (albeit one that has suffered casualties) until the next movement phase.

So yeah, I am claiming he becomes a New unit when he survives, mainly because, ya know, he does. Unless you want to somehow Claim that a Land Raider (who just Assploded) is the Same unit as a Infantry Independent Character.

I guess my question is in what way was Chronus not a part of the vehicle unit? He was bought as an upgrade for it, and he couldn't leave it. Just because the vehicle died doesn't mean the whole unit must cease to exist.

I don't see how Chronus was NOT a part of the Land Raider he was there after all even though he couldn't leave it. Thre chaplain example may not be identical, but it is certainly much the same as a retinue (the few that remain) in that he WAS an upgrade character that was part of a unit, and now he's an IC on his own. I don't see any difference there.

The only way i can see an application of your point Gwar is if you are saying Chronus simply doesn't exist AT ALL until the vehicle dies. If that's what you are saying, I'd disagree. Just because he can't leave his ride does not mean he doesn't exist.

Kyrolon wrote:I guess my question is in what way was Chronus not a part of the vehicle unit? He was bought as an upgrade for it, and he couldn't leave it. Just because the vehicle died doesn't mean the whole unit must cease to exist.

I don't see how Chronus was NOT a part of the Land Raider he was there after all even though he couldn't leave it. Thre chaplain example may not be identical, but it is certainly much the same as a retinue (the few that remain) in that he WAS an upgrade character that was part of a unit, and now he's an IC on his own. I don't see any difference there.

The only way i can see an application of your point Gwar is if you are saying Chronus simply doesn't exist AT ALL until the vehicle dies. If that's what you are saying, I'd disagree. Just because he can't leave his ride does not mean he doesn't exist.

Actually, yeah, he does not exist as a Unit until the Land Raider is Destroyed. Until the vehicle he is in is popped, he has No Profile (as it is only used after the tank is gone) and no Special Rules (likewise). All he "Does" is act as a Special Upgrade for the Tank. When the tank is destroyed, it creates a new unit consisting of Chronus, with his profile, Wargear and rules. As such, he then can offer up a kill point, which is another point to him being a new unit.

Can you explain to me how a Unit of 1 model that has a Different Name, profile and Special Rules to the other Unit of 1 model you shot at be the same unit?

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:I guess my question is in what way was Chronus not a part of the vehicle unit? He was bought as an upgrade for it, and he couldn't leave it. Just because the vehicle died doesn't mean the whole unit must cease to exist.

I don't see how Chronus was NOT a part of the Land Raider he was there after all even though he couldn't leave it. Thre chaplain example may not be identical, but it is certainly much the same as a retinue (the few that remain) in that he WAS an upgrade character that was part of a unit, and now he's an IC on his own. I don't see any difference there.

The only way i can see an application of your point Gwar is if you are saying Chronus simply doesn't exist AT ALL until the vehicle dies. If that's what you are saying, I'd disagree. Just because he can't leave his ride does not mean he doesn't exist.

Actually, yeah, he does not exist as a Unit until the Land Raider is Destroyed. Until the vehicle he is in is popped, he has No Profile (as it is only used after the tank is gone) and no Special Rules (likewise). All he "Does" is act as a Special Upgrade for the Tank. When the tank is destroyed, it creates a new unit consisting of Chronus, with his profile, Wargear and rules. As such, he then can offer up a kill point, which is another point to him being a new unit.

Can you explain to me how a Unit of 1 model that has a Different Name, profile and Special Rules to the other Unit of 1 model you shot at be the same unit?

Just because he has a different name and profile doesn't mean he can't be part of a unit (see inquisitors and retinues--many different profiles, one unit). Likewise, the fact that his profile isn't used while he is in his vehicle is irrelevant to his existence. Embarked units profiles aren't used, yet they exist, don't they?

Since Chronus has a codex entry and has a statline, he must exist as a model. Now we know models that are in vehicles, while not on the table, do still exist. Just because Chronus can't leave his assigned vehicle does not mean he doesn't exist.

Since Chronus exists, and since he is part if the vehicle unit (an IC with a unit he can't leave just like a retinue) then when you shoot at the vehicle you are also shooting at him. If you weren't than how is it he can either live or die by the same fire?

Since I believe Chronus exists (whether I've convinced you or not ) I see one of two "states of being" for him.

He is either:
A: part of the vehicle unit (as explained above)
B: a passenger in the vehicle.

Since his live/die roll is not the same as the disembarking passenger rule, I'd say A is correct. As far as the OP goes though, in either case he can be assaulted.

Edit: I go sleep now. Check back tomorrow.

Well, lets look at it from a Logical Standpoint:
Pre Shooting: A land Raider
Post Shooting: A Guy on Foot.

No, that is not the same Unit. Live with it. Also, as I have pointed out, yes he has a Profile, but only when the tank is destroyed. Until that point he DOES NOT EXIST FOR ANY GAME PURPOSES WHATSOEVER.

Or are you suggesting that he should take a Morale test for 25% Unit casualties the turn he arrives?

Correction:

Gwar! wrote:Pre Shooting: A land Raider

, including an upgrade that must be displayed by an actual model. (Page 89, SM Codex: "Use the tank commander model of Chronus to represent this."

Gwar! wrote:Post Shooting: A Guy on Foot.


Or are you suggesting that he should take a Morale test for 25% Unit casualties the turn he arrives?

Quite Possibly. I seem to remember a rule about ICs not needing to take checks if the unit they were with was wiped out before the end of shooting. Is that still valid?

Chronus is bought as an upgrade to a tank and is therefore part of the tank unit. If the tank is destroyed and Chronus survives the unit isn't destroyed and can thus be assaulted by anyone that shot at it.

Webbe wrote:Chronus is bought as an upgrade to a tank and is therefore part of the tank unit. If the tank is destroyed and Chronus survives the unit isn't destroyed and can thus be assaulted by anyone that shot at it.

Show me anything in the rules that allows an "upgrade" to be part of a unit. Before the tank is destroyed, you have a special rule that gives you some bonuses called Chronus. After it is destroyed, you have a guy on foot.

Lets not even talk about how you can't have a unit consist of a vehicle and infantry.

Honestly this seems extremely straight forward to me.

Just shoot him with another unit. It's a waste of time arguing it here if you catch my drift.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Just shoot him with another unit. It's a waste of time arguing it here if you catch my drift.

G

got agree with this ... unless he joins the unit that was being transported just shoot him and claim your free killpoint. If he does join the unit charge the unit.

If he is considered a completely seperate unit, then is Chronus worth an additional kill point in KP missions?

Sarigar: Yes.

even more simple solution, charge the unit that the land raider was transporting and double charge into chronus.

3 kill points=win.

Demogerg wrote:even more simple solution, charge the unit that the land raider was transporting and double charge into chronus.

3 kill points=win.

That is perfectly legal, declaring the assault against Chronos would not be though.

you can declare multiple targets for assaults gwar! if both are in range and you still keep coherency... so it would be legal but not as the primary target.

I'm sure this is what you meant/said, but I can see people reading your last post differently (hence the rules debate!)

frgsinwntr wrote:you can declare multiple targets for assaults gwar! if both are in range and you still keep coherency... so it would be legal but not as the primary target.

I'm sure this is what you meant/said, but I can see people reading your last post differently (hence the rules debate!)

Actually, you only ever declare the Assault against 1 Unit, the unit that you shot at. Anything else can just be moved into BTB so long as it follows the rules for multiple assaults.

I always equip Chronus with a thunder hammer and power weapon so he can rock out in close combat attacks

Green Blow Fly wrote:I always equip Chronus with a thunder hammer and power weapon so he can rock out in close combat attacks

And people call me a Troll.

-shrug-

Look at your avatar.

G

Gwar! wrote:[ Until the vehicle he is in is popped, he has No Profile (as it is only used after the tank is gone) and no Special Rules (likewise). All he "Does" is act as a Special Upgrade for the Tank.

except for tank commander

statu wrote:

Gwar! wrote:[ Until the vehicle he is in is popped, he has No Profile (as it is only used after the tank is gone) and no Special Rules (likewise). All he "Does" is act as a Special Upgrade for the Tank.

except for his special rule whereby the vechile he is with being able to use his BS

Yeah, but thats all it is, you get to use BS 5, the tank doesn't become him

He is an Upgrade for the tank though, no?
HE is considered a part of the tank? The crew?

Emperors Faithful wrote:He is an Upgrade for the tank though, no?
HE is considered a part of the tank? The crew?

He is not considered a Passenger. That is all that matters.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Webbe wrote:Chronus is bought as an upgrade to a tank and is therefore part of the tank unit. If the tank is destroyed and Chronus survives the unit isn't destroyed and can thus be assaulted by anyone that shot at it.

Show me anything in the rules that allows an "upgrade" to be part of a unit. Before the tank is destroyed, you have a special rule that gives you some bonuses called Chronus. After it is destroyed, you have a guy on foot.

Lets not even talk about how you can't have a unit consist of a vehicle and infantry.

Honestly this seems extremely straight forward to me.

All upgrades are part of the unit, are you trying to say that a boy upgraded to a nob is now his own unit?

Also:

RB page 47 wrote:Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from
the start of the game, representing a squad leader or
unit champion, such as a Space Marine Veteran
Sergeant. They do not have an entry of their own
and are effectively just another trooper in their unit,
with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider
selection of weapons and wargear choices.

The unit is not both vehicle and infantry. It's only vehicle as long as the tank is not destroyed. As soon as it is destroyed the unit becomes infantry if Chronus survives exactly as his rules say.

Yes, it BECOMES a Different Unit. It is not the same unit.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, it BECOMES a Different Unit. It is not the same unit.

On what grounds do you base that?

If he is a unit being transported by the tank, then he couldn't get in anything other than a Land Raider, and any Land Raider he were in would not be able to transport another unit because of the transport rules and the fact Chronus doesn't have a rule which lets his vehicles transport any extra units than normal.

If he is a part of the same unit as the tank he is riding in it brings up even more problems because now you have a unit that is composed of 1 vehicle and 1 infantry model who doesn't follow normal infantry rules at all despite not being allowed to ignore those rules by any of his special rules.

I think the only way to implement this without breaking any rules is that when he's in the tank it's just a tank with some special rules, when it is destroyed if he escapes a whole new unit is created.

Webbe wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, it BECOMES a Different Unit. It is not the same unit.

On what grounds do you base that?

Oh, something to do with the fact that he Changes Name, Profile and type and the fact that Chronos and a Land Raider are not the Same unit no matter what planet you are on.

Except you kind of BUY him for the land raider as an upgrade. It does not make sense. If all crew/gunners are considered destroyed with their vehichle then what is Chronos?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Except you kind of BUY him for the land raider as an upgrade. It does not make sense. If all crew/gunners are considered destroyed with their vehichle then what is Chronos?

Chronos has a SuperspecialRule that lets you ignore that, and create a new Unit when the Vehicle assplodes

But it DOESN'T SAY THAT...


...does it?

Emperors Faithful wrote:But it DOESN'T SAY THAT...


...does it?

If the tank suffers a Wrecked or Explodes! result, roll a D6. n a 1 or 2, Chronus is slain. If the result is 3 or more, Chronus leaps clear at the last second - when the damage has been resolved, place him within 2" of the vehicle's position.

Nope, not the same unit, not a passenger.

It does not SAY he is a seperate unit.
Just as it does not SAY he was a passenger.

Which (if either) is it?

Emperors Faithful wrote:I does not SAY he is a seperate unit.
Just as it does not SAY he was a passenger.

Which (if either) is it?

It does not day he is a passenger. Therefore, he is not. Therefore, you cannot declare the assault because it is not the same unit you shot at.

It does not say he is a seperate unit...does it? (deja vu)

Was Chronus not ORIGINALLY part of the unit (tank) you shot at? And you can only seperate from the unit in the moving phase. Right? So he still counts as one with the unit you shot at.

Emperors Faithful wrote:It does not say he is a seperate unit...does it? (deja vu)

Was Chronus not ORIGINALLY part of the unit (tank) you shot at? And you can only separate from the unit in the moving phase. Right? So he still counts as one with the unit you shot at.

Nowhere does it say he is part of the Tank/Unit whatever. He is a Totally Separate unit that is created when the tank is destroyed.

But it DOES NOT say that he is created. It says he is placed. Within 2", sounds a bit like a passenger to me.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But it DOES NOT say that he is created. It says he is placed. Within 2", sounds a bit like a passenger to me.

But he is not. If he was a Passenger, it would say "Placed Like a Passenger". he instead has his own special rules on what to do. Therefore he is not a passenger

In this case RAW has stuffed up. It is not clear at all what is to be done. It does not say treat him like a passenger, nor does it say treat him like a new unit. There is no REAL guideline as to how he should be treated in this situation.

Emperors Faithful wrote:In this case RAW has stuffed up. It is not clear at all what is to be done. It does not say treat him like a passenger, nor does it say treat him like a new unit. There is no REAL guideline as to how he should be treated in this situation.

Agree. The rules don't identify him as a Passenger. Nor do the rules state if he is the same unit (despite changing from a unit with an AV to an infantry model with a T value) or if he is now a new unit. RAW has failed us!

I think the reasonable answer is that Chronus can be assaulted by a unit that blew up his pimpin' ride. YMMV.

Finnaly! A kindred soul! (when it comes to Chronus's pimped up wreck that is)

For assault-

In the Tank Commander text pg 89 Space Marines codex it states that he "starts the game as a Commander of a Space Marine tank" meaning that he is inside the tank from the start of the game as the person commanding the tank... not driving it. A passenger is defined as anyone inside a vehicle that is not driving said vehicle.

Against assault-

The rule for assault vs passengers is merely an example, but states that if you blow it up you may now assault the "disembarked passengers" which would not include the Commander as he did not disembark as per the disembark guidelines.

Common sense rule would (hopefully) dictate that as per the definition of the word passenger he was infact a passenger.

BlueDagger wrote:Common sense rule would (hopefully) dictate that as per the definition of the word passenger he was infact a passenger.

People play by the rules, not Common Sense.

Gwar! wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Common sense rule would (hopefully) dictate that as per the definition of the word passenger he was infact a passenger.

People play by the rules, not Common Sense.

And in some cases the rules are not clear.

It is not clear whether or not Chronus counts as:
- A passenger of the vehicle he commands
- Part of the same unit as the vehicle he commands
- A separate unit from the vehicle he commands

Either seem to be acceptable per RAW.

BlueDagger wrote:Common sense rule would (hopefully) dictate that as per the definition of the word passenger he was infact a passenger.

If he's a passenger he can't ride in any vehicle without transport space, nor may his vehicle with transport space transport a second unit, it's transport capacity is already taken up by Chronus.

whitedragon wrote:It is not clear whether or not Chronus counts as:
- A passenger of the vehicle he commands
- Part of the same unit as the vehicle he commands
- A separate unit from the vehicle he commands

Either seem to be acceptable per RAW.

No, it is clear he is a separate unit, ya know, because of the whole "he has a Different name, Profile, Characteristics and Unit Type than a Tank"

Drunkspleen wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Common sense rule would (hopefully) dictate that as per the definition of the word passenger he was infact a passenger.

If he's a passenger he can't ride in any vehicle without transport space, nor may his vehicle with transport space transport a second unit, it's transport capacity is already taken up by Chronus.

I wasn't intended to mean that he is in the APC troop hold which would be the passanger transport capasity. He is the commander of the tank, not the driver of the tank. It is likly that he is more in the way of the gunner of the vehicle.

As stated before though there is no clear ruling on this one because the gunner and driver of vehicles can't typically get out. He follows similar rules to Tau ejection system which is similarly vague.

He is a separate unit.

He has a separate statline and has a separate type.

He is not a passenger because he operates the vehicle, rather than just riding in it. http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=passenger

The precident in rules for this is tau vehicles with gun drones, which count as a separate unit in all respects once they have been detached, but are originally bought as part of the vehicle.

So no, you cant kill a vehicle and then assault chronus.

Regwon wrote:He is a separate unit.

He has a separate statline and has a separate type.

He is not a passenger because he operates the vehicle, rather than just riding in it. http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=passenger

The precident in rules for this is tau vehicles with gun drones, which count as a separate unit in all respects once they have been detached, but are originally bought as part of the vehicle.

So no, you cant kill a vehicle and then assault chronus.

Gun drones are specifically mention as being passengers Chronus is not. He is a vehicle upgrade so is part of the vehicle. Unless that is a rule (,like gun drones have ,) say that he is a passenger.

Regwon wrote:The precident in rules for this is tau vehicles with gun drones, which count as a separate unit in all respects once they have been detached, but are originally bought as part of the vehicle.

As some people like to say, that's the Tau codex and irrelevant.

Chronus is definitely not a Passenger. The rules make no mention on any restriction or ability to assault him after the vehicle is destroyed.

I would play it that a unit that smoked his pimpin' ride can asasult him. YMMV.

Tri wrote:Gun drones are specifically mention as being passengers Chronus is not. He is a vehicle upgrade so is part of the vehicle. Unless that is a rule (,like gun drones have ,) say that he is a passenger.

Nowhere do the rules say that he is a Part of the Vehicle anyway. All it says is the vehicle uses his BS, not that he is Piloting the Vehicle.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:Gun drones are specifically mention as being passengers Chronus is not. He is a vehicle upgrade so is part of the vehicle. Unless that is a rule (,like gun drones have ,) say that he is a passenger.

Nowhere do the rules say that he is a Part of the Vehicle anyway. All it says is the vehicle uses his BS, not that he is Piloting the Vehicle.

Another moment of gwar being miss informed. He is purchased as a vehicle upgrade.

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:Gun drones are specifically mention as being passengers Chronus is not. He is a vehicle upgrade so is part of the vehicle. Unless that is a rule (,like gun drones have ,) say that he is a passenger.

Nowhere do the rules say that he is a Part of the Vehicle anyway. All it says is the vehicle uses his BS, not that he is Piloting the Vehicle.

Another moment of gwar being miss informed. He is purchased as a vehicle upgrade.

Chronus' tank ignores any Crew Shaken or Crew Stunnedresults and can use his Ballistic Skill of 5.

Nowhere does it say the tank is Chronos or that he is any part of the tank, even if he is bought as an upgrade, only that the tank that is upgraded gets to use BS5 etc etc

"Tank Commander: Chronus is always bought as an upgrade and starts the game as commander of a SM tank ...."




Automatically Appended Next Post:
"... If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and the following special rules for the remainder of the game: And they shall know no fear, Combat Tactics, independent Character...."

Yes, random Rules quotes help because.....

Gwar! wrote:Yes, random Rules quotes help because.....

.... because you said he wasn't an upgrade and because you said he didn't exist till the tank was destroyed.

He's part of the tank that keeps on kicking long after the tanks blown to bits.

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, random Rules quotes help because.....

.... because you said he wasn't an upgrade and because you said he didn't exist till the tank was destroyed.

He's part of the tank that keeps on kicking long after the tanks blown to bits.

No, I said he was an Upgrade, but he is not the tank. If the tank Explodes, the tank is gone, and Chronus is a new unit.

Gwar! wrote:If the tank Explodes, the tank is gone, and Chronus is a new unit.

There's nothing in the rules that states Chronus is or is not a new unit, either in the SM codex or the rulebook. You're taking the position that since his unit type and statline change, he must be a new unit, but there is not a rule that states so.

chronus is a TANK upgrade not a unit upgrade if the tank blows up he becomes a single man unit.

dietrich wrote:

Gwar! wrote:If the tank Explodes, the tank is gone, and Chronus is a new unit.

There's nothing in the rules that states Chronus is or is not a new unit, either in the SM codex or the rulebook. You're taking the position that since his unit type and statline change, he must be a new unit, but there is not a rule that states so.

There is no rule saying I can't pour napalm on your minis either.

Gwar! wrote:There is no rule saying I can't pour napalm on your minis either.

In this case, you are correct. That's why sportsmanship should be encouraged. Same with cases where RAW doesn't have an answer to a question, as in this case.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, random Rules quotes help because.....

.... because you said he wasn't an upgrade and because you said he didn't exist till the tank was destroyed.

He's part of the tank that keeps on kicking long after the tanks blown to bits.

No, I said he was an Upgrade, but he is not the tank. If the tank Explodes, the tank is gone, and Chronus is a new unit.

Really?

Gwar! wrote:Nowhere does it say the tank is Chronos or that he is any part of the tank, even if he is bought as an upgrade, only that the tank that is upgraded gets to use BS5 etc etc

But any way he's an upgrade to the tank and is (and must be) clearly visible poking out the top of the tank. Tank blows up and becomes a pile of rubble and a bald shouty man in red amour. He gains a profile and rules when the tank blows but is still part of the same unit.

Just got to chime in and say this arguement is pointless, some of it is GW's fault because they could have made him just die off with the tank, like Pask. I agree with the people that said just shoot at him with a different squad.

After that run spore mines, lots of them.

It's insanity to argue that they guy isn't in the vehicle, it specifically states "he leaps clear at the last second", meaning he was in the vehicle that was about to explode. He doesn't apear from the warp magically.

The question in place is if he is inside the vehicle does that make him a "passenger"? Or is it argued that he is the driver therefor has special rights in targeting for assault purposes.

That question can't be answered without offical ruling since just because current day tanks take a "crew" to pilot doesn't assume that 40k take more then one person.

Fluff also states I should win any Battle with an Inquisitor in it Automatically via Exterminatus.

Fluff != Rules.

Just to muddy the waters a bit, 'cuz I think nobody has mentioned this aspect yet, but what is the rules reason that Chronus would not be considered an upgrade character for the unit (assuming "upgrade character" exists in 5th).

@Gwar: Now you're just being pedantic. It is not like Chronus magically appeared with fairy powder randomly next to a vehichle wreck. It was HIS vehichle.

If he counted as a driver/gunner/crew then he should be destroyed with the vehichle according to the rulebook. The only other alternative is that he counted as a passenger.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Gwar: Now you're just being pedantic. It is not like Chronus magically appeared with fairy powder randomly next to a vehichle wreck. It was HIS vehichle.

If he counted as a driver/gunner/crew then he should be destroyed with the vehichle according to the rulebook. The only other alternative is that he counted as a passenger.

Or he is a new unit, ya know because he is

You buy him as an upgrade for a vehicle. He is not a unit then. He is a piece of wargear that gives certain bonuses. He is not part of the vehicles unit any more than an extra stormbolter is. Nowhere does it say he is a passenger or member of the unit, so he isn't. Even if it did, its not part of vehicles and infantry to be a unit together. He's wargear that happens to have the model and fluff of a space marine. He is not a unit until the vehicle is destroyed, and then he is his own 1 man unit. As the rules do not say anything else, it isn't anything else.

Sorry, but Gwar is wrong (so is Drudge for that matter).

Chronus is not a vehicle upgrade. He is not listed as an upgrade in any of the vehicle entries. He is a character who may be purchased and has his own statline, his own unit entry etc. This makes him an upgrafe character, not a vehicle upgrade.

Yes, a character cannot normally join a vehicle unit, but Chronus' rules tell us he MUST, so they override the BRB.

Just because the only stat you use of his profile is BS, that does not mean the rest of it does not exist.

This makes Chronus a character who is bought as an upgrade. Upgrade characters are part of the unit they are purchased for.

For all these reasons, Chronus is part of the vehicle unit he is assigned to, and thus, if he survives, can be assaulted.

If you disagree, please offer some evidence that after being purchased he ceases to exist, because I don't see that rule anywhere. (Please note not being on the table =/= not existing).

Kyrolon wrote:If you disagree, please offer some evidence that after being purchased he ceases to exist, because I don't see that rule anywhere. (Please note not being on the table =/= not existing).

Not on the Table, not in reserve, has no profile, not a passenger.

Yeah, he doesn't exist until the tank blows up.

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:If you disagree, please offer some evidence that after being purchased he ceases to exist, because I don't see that rule anywhere. (Please note not being on the table =/= not existing).

Not on the Table, not in reserve, has no profile, not a passenger.

Yeah, he doesn't exist until the tank blows up.

Has a profile, is part of the unit. He exists. Please tell me how an upgrade character is NOT part of the unit.

Kyrolon wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:If you disagree, please offer some evidence that after being purchased he ceases to exist, because I don't see that rule anywhere. (Please note not being on the table =/= not existing).

Not on the Table, not in reserve, has no profile, not a passenger.

Yeah, he doesn't exist until the tank blows up.

Has a profile, is part of the unit. He exists. Please tell me how an upgrade character is NOT part of the unit.

Because his rules do not say that he is part of the unit. "It doesn't say he isn't" does not make a valid rules argument.

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:If you disagree, please offer some evidence that after being purchased he ceases to exist, because I don't see that rule anywhere. (Please note not being on the table =/= not existing).

Not on the Table, not in reserve, has no profile, not a passenger.

Yeah, he doesn't exist until the tank blows up.

Has a profile, is part of the unit. He exists. Please tell me how an upgrade character is NOT part of the unit.

Because his rules do not say that he is part of the unit. "It doesn't say he isn't" does not make a valid rules argument.

The BRB makes him part if the unit since he is an upgrade character. You know a character bought and assigned to a unit he can't leave. He fits that definition so that's exactly what he is.

Kyrolon wrote:The BRB makes him part if the unit since he is an upgrade character. You know a character bought and assigned to a unit he can't leave. He fits that definition so that's exactly what he is.

No, he is bought as an Upgrade (like Extra Armour), not an Upgrade Character.

Page 89:
Chronus is always bought as an upgrade

He is not called a character, quite rightly, because he does not have a Profile until the tank dies:

Page 89 (again):
If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following special rules for the remainder of the game: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character. He may not take command of a different tank.

"If" means he does not have the profile until the tank dies, and as such he does not exist as a Unit until the tank dies.

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:The BRB makes him part if the unit since he is an upgrade character. You know a character bought and assigned to a unit he can't leave. He fits that definition so that's exactly what he is.

No, he is bought as an Upgrade (like Extra Armour), not an Upgrade Character.

Page 89:
Chronus is always bought as an upgrade

He is not called a character, quite rightly, because he does not have a Profile until the tank dies:

Page 89 (again):
If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following special rules for the remainder of the game: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character. He may not take command of a different tank.

"If" means he does not have the profile until the tank dies, and as such he does not exist as a Unit until the tank dies.

This also does not say he is bought as a VEHICLE upgrade. He is a special character, so then he must be an upgrade CHARACTER.

And no, that "if" does not mean the profile doesn't exist, it means you don't use it previously.

Kyrolon wrote:And no, that "if" does not mean the profile doesn't exist, it means you don't use it previously.

If it was not used previously, how does using it NOT constitute making a new unit?

The rules in the BRB do not allow Vehicles and Infantry to form units outside of Artillery. Nothing in Chronus rules state he becomes a Unit with the tank, only that he is bought as an Upgrade. Not an Upgrade CHARACTER, but just an Upgrade. When the Tank Asspoldes, he is Placed within 2" as a new Unit, with the IC rule etc.

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:And no, that "if" does not mean the profile doesn't exist, it means you don't use it previously.

If it was not used previously, how does using it NOT constitute making a new unit?

Just becaue there's no cause to use it (due to Chronus being part of the vehicle) does not mean his profile doesn't exist. Otherwise how does the vehicle use his BS?

The rules in the BRB do not allow Vehicles and Infantry to form units outside of Artillery. Nothing in Chronus rules state he becomes a Unit with the tank, only that he is bought as an Upgrade. Not an Upgrade CHARACTER, but just an Upgrade. When the Tank Asspoldes, he is Placed within 2" as a new Unit, with the IC rule etc.

Chronus' rules say he is bought as an upgrade (with no mention of what kind). He is not listed in any specific vehicle entry under vehicle upgrades therefore he is not a vehicle upgrade. He is a character though. At this point we must define character since to my knowledge though they talk about them a lot GW never does. Chronus is a single individual with a name. To my mind that makes him a character. If he is not a vehicle upgrade (which are all listed in vehicle entries) and he is a character, then he must be an upgrade character. We do have rules for these, and they are part of the unit they were bought for.

Since Chronus is part of the unit he was bought for, and indeed must be modeled as such, then he can be assaulted. This notion of being in some state of ethereal non existence makes no sense, Gwar, nor is it supported by the rules. If Chronus did not exist prior to being placed on the table he'd have no effect on the tank either. To use your own standards, where in Chromus' rules does it say "Chronus becomes a new unit"?

As far as the problem of not combining infantry with vehicles...this is irrelevant. As I pointed out above we are told Chronus must be added to a vehicle, that overrides the BRB rule on no infantry joining vehicles.

I"ve said the same thing like 3 times now, as have others, so unless you add something new that shows where it says Chronus doesn't exist, I really don't have anything else to add.

Kyrolon wrote:I really don't have anything else to add.

So why keep posting? If I am "wrong" like you say, why should it matter to you?

I'm not wrong, but I am curious as to why it bothers you so much.

Gwar=Wrong
Kyrolon=Right

I'm sorry Gwar, but you have to realise, there is no real direction pointed out by the rule book. It does not really offer any solid guidance as to how chronus operates in an assualt.

I think you would only say that Chronus cannot be assualted if you were an utter jackass, and was desperate to twist the rules in your favour.

The problen is that there IS NO RAW for this case. I would think that it is only reasonable to ASSUME that Chronus can be assualted. YMMV

It doesn't bother me so much as I didn't want you to think I'd walked off in a huff. We are obviously looking at the same couple of sticking points and seeing them differently. I was basically saying that I've said everything I can to persuade you. You believe you are right, I believe I am. Nothing is going to chnge that apparently. I've continued posting to this point in response to your queries/ responses. While typing my last one I realized I had said it all before. There's no need to say it again. Go in Peace young trollkin.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The problen is that there IS NO RAW for this case. I would think that it is only reasonable to ASSUME that Chronus can be assualted. YMMV

I think it is reasonable to assume that A Tank turning into an Infantry Model that is worth a 2nd kill point and has the IC rule means it is a new unit.

It is also what the rules say, but don't let that get in the way huh?

It doesn't SAY that he is a new unit.
Just as it dosen't say he is not.
There IS NO mention as to whether or not Chronus is COMPLETELY detached from his vehichle. If he has the slightest connection to the vehichle (which I BELIEVE he does, but ignore that) then he should be viable to be assualted.

The problem is that RAW does not mention this.

P.S. Does it say Chronus counts as another kill point? (honest question)

Emperors Faithful wrote:P.S. Does it say Chronus counts as another kill point? (honest question)

The fact he is an IC says so.

No but he clearly fits the definitions for another killpoint and doesn't have a rule stating he is not counted as another killpoint. Ergo he is using strict RaW another killpoint.

@Gwar: No it doesn't. Just becuase you're an IC does not mean you are automatically an extra kill point. If he is an uprade for the unit (vehichle or whatever) then he would not be an extra kill point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@combo: Ah! It does not say whether or Not he is another killpoint. It gives no guidance EITHER way.

At the end of the game, each player receives 1 'kill point' for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed.

Tank + Cronus = 2 KP

page 91 "At the end of the game, each player recieves 1 kill point for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed"

page3 "A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero"

But you are ASSUMING that Chronus is a different unit entirely. I don't think that has been quite established yet (despite many peoples protests)

Emperors Faithful wrote:But you are ASSUMING that Chronus is a different unit entirely. I don't think that has been quite established yet (despite many peoples protests)

The fact that he gains the IC rule, and changes Unit type, and Gains a profile he didn't have before CLEARLY mean he is the same unit </sarcasm>

Please remember that Chronus is obviously a SPECIAL case. You can't just say "he's an independant charachter" and be done wiv it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But you are ASSUMING that Chronus is a different unit entirely. I don't think that has been quite established yet (despite many peoples protests)

Page47: "independent characters are represented by individual models, which fight as units in their own right"


and as earlier shown, each unit gives a kill point

Dammit, when are you going to get it that he has the SAME profile. The vehichle USES HIS BS!

Emperors Faithful wrote:Dammit, when are you going to get it that he has the SAME profile. The vehichle USES HIS BS!

Yes, the vehicle uses his BS, not his profile. he doesn't have one till the tank assplodes

page 89 of the Space marine codex

"When the damage has been resolved place him within 2" of the vehicles position. If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile"


Therefore he gets the profile once his vehicle is destroyed, but beforehand he does not have a profile, just the ability to allow a unit to use his BS5.

As much as I disagree with Gwar on whether Chronus is part of the unit, I must agree that he offers an additional killpoint. As I've argued that he counts as an upgrade to the unit, I'll approach it from that perspective. Check the rules on retinues. An IC attached to a unit that he cannot leave counts that unit as a retinue (even if it isn't titled as such). Since Chronus (by either my interpretation or Gwar's) fits this definition, he offers an additional kll point just as something like a broodlord does.

But this does not clarify him as a NEW unit. You are (at this point) aparently only ASSUMING he is.

Also how do you think the vehichle GETS the BS5? By having Chronus, no?

At my gaming store we play it as if he replaces a crew member inside the tank and is hence being ´transported´ inside the tank and so when his take blows he is assualtable. By the way... he is in the tank he is an upgrade nowhere in the rules does it say he is a new unit. no where. He is just an upgrade with a chance to keep going. Besides in the codex he is bought as an upgrade for an existing unit he isnt a unit in his own right. Its kind of like buying a hunterkiller missile or something except instead of a missile you get a plus one to your bs

Kyrolon wrote:As much as I disagree with Gwar on whether Chronus is part of the unit, I must agree that he offers an additional killpoint. As I've argued that he counts as an upgrade to the unit, I'll approach it from that perspective. Check the rules on retinues. An IC attached to a unit that he cannot leave counts that unit as a retinue (even if it isn't titled as such). Since Chronus (by either my interpretation or Gwar's) fits this definition, he offers an additional kll point just as something like a broodlord does.

But he is not part of a Retinue, for a number of reasons:
1) You cant have Mixed Vehicle and non Vehicle outside of Artillery. Nothing in Chronus rules suggests this is the case
2) Retinues are non existent past the Ork Codex at least. The rules for Retinues are for Legacy Codexes
3) If you admit he is a Extra KP, he has to be a different unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

scifi112233 wrote:at my gaming store we play it as if he replaces a crew member inside the tank and is hence being ´transported´ inside the tank and so when his take blows he is assualtable.

Your club could serve Free Hookers and Pie, doesn't change the fact that your view holds no basis in rules.

Emperors Faithful, if he has the profile whilst still in the tank, he also has his Rules surely?

If that is the case if the land raider blows up and Chronus doesn't survive then you lost two kill points anyway, an independent character even if permently attached to another unit still gives a killpoint.

Your arguement and Gwar!s arguement both end in him counting as a killpoint, if brought to their logical conclusion. They just get there by different means.

............ thats only in the back for ´privileged´ members of the store Its just how we interpret the rules. And this is just another example of the man (i.e. GW) trying to turn us agaisnt eachother and keep us from uniting to put the man down.

scifi112233 wrote:............ thats only in the back for ´privileged´ members of the store Its just how we interpret the rules. And this is just another example of the man (i.e. GW) trying to turn us agaisnt eachother and keep us from uniting to put the man down.

Would you like to buy a tinfoil hat?

no i already have one.. i have spares if you want one

Look, IMO, there are two ways to interperet the rule. Both I think, are entirely acceptable.

1) Chronus can be charged. But only counts as 1 kill point. (as the vehichle is not truly dead until HE dies)

2) Chronus cannot be charged. But counts as a completley different unit and another kill point. (2 overall)

YMMV.

#2 is correct

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:As much as I disagree with Gwar on whether Chronus is part of the unit, I must agree that he offers an additional killpoint. As I've argued that he counts as an upgrade to the unit, I'll approach it from that perspective. Check the rules on retinues. An IC attached to a unit that he cannot leave counts that unit as a retinue (even if it isn't titled as such). Since Chronus (by either my interpretation or Gwar's) fits this definition, he offers an additional kll point just as something like a broodlord does.

But he is not part of a Retinue, for a number of reasons:
1) You cant have Mixed Vehicle and non Vehicle outside of Artillery. Nothing in Chronus rules suggests this is the case
2) Retinues are non existent past the Ork Codex at least. The rules for Retinues are for Legacy Codexes
3) If you admit he is a Extra KP, he has to be a different unit

1.) I['ve covered that one previously.
2.) The definition of retinues says nothing about "only legacy codexes" it only mentions characters that are bound to a unit that become IC's when the unit dies.
3.) First, I admit nothing. and second that does not mean he has to be a seperate unit at the time the tank was shot anymore than a broodlord is a seperate unit to his retinue. Or are you arguing that if all the stealers die to shooting you can't assault the broodlord?

On the subject of Cronus' profile. Please tell me how, if he has no profile, he can have a BS?

Number one would be completely unacceptable and I would pack up my models if someone tried it against me.

It would be like someone argueing that you don't get the Killpoint for a Troop Choice whilst a dedicated transport still survives.

he doesnt have a profile in the vechile he simply upgrades the bs

@combo: But isn't chronus an upgrade for the vehcihle? Passengers are seperate. Transport are seperate.

I am arguing that in this case chronus is assumed to be part of the vehichle. A bolter that lives after a wrecked result.

2) is not necessarialy correct. It is just a way of playing. It is just as acceptable as 1). it depends on what floats you're boat.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@combo: But isn't chronus an upgrade for the vehcihle?

Yes, he is an Upgrade, just like a Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter or Extra Armour is an Upgrade.

40k uses a permissive rule system. If it doesn't say you can, you can't. If it doesn't say it is, it isn't.

It doens't say Chronus is part of a tank's retinue. It doesn't say he is a crewmember (these no longer even exist rules wise). It doesn't say he's joined to the tank. It says the tank uses his BS, and that when the tank dies if you roll high enough he gets placed near it. That is all.

Actually two is Correct, one is a perfectly valid playstyle for some, but it isnt rules as written. He is an upgrade for part of the tank yes, but when the tank dies he becomes an independent character, and independent characters are always individual units, and individual units always grant a KP.

Thats a pretty clear ruling I think.

If you start arguing that an independent character that is an upgrade is not an individual Killpoint, then you have no rules to back you up apart from how you think the game should be played, which is fine, but it shouldnt be passed of as a legimate RaW arguement.

@Drudge: It doesn't say he is a new unit. So he isn't, right?

@Gwar: So how does he give you an extra kill point. If he is an upgrade for the vehcihle then he MUST be viable for assualt.

@combo: I don't see where you're coming from. Both are ENTIRELY viable arguments and ways ofv playing. I am saying that there IS NO absolutley correct way of playing as there is no solid RAW for this case.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Gwar: So how does he give you an extra kill point. If he is an upgrade for the vehcihle then he MUST be viable for assualt.

Because as I have said, he becomes a new unit AFTER the tank assplodes. Before that, he is nothing but a Vehicle Upgrade.

But their is an absolute ruling. hes an independent character, independent characters are killpoints. Ergo he is a killpoint. If he isnt a killpoint then the entire games rules become questionable.

"Yeah the rules say that all x's are y's. But Chronius is an independent character but not a killpoint, therefore how can the rules be trusted?"

You may not like the result, heck I'm not sure I like it, but its the result none the less.



this is also the reason why a Thunderfire Cannon is two killpoints, as the model crewing the cannon is an independent character.


independent character = a killpoint

it really is that simple.

As i said before he always exists (you must see him sticking out the top of the tank he's commanding)

but he gains his profile and rules once the tank dies (If he survives)

So I you destroy the tank and he doesn't jump clear 1KP

If you shoot the tank destroy it and he jumps clear, he counts as part of that unit so you can charge him.

And if you then kill him you gain 1KP.

@Gwar: That doesn't even make sense.

@combo: I understand combo I do, but gwar is being confusing by saying that chronus is a vehcihle upgrade, ergo a part of the vehcihle. You would play by 2) I understand, I'm not dissing you.

But you have to agree that RAW has failed in this cae, no?

I'm sorry but I will only concede that 2) is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, if you bring me the rule saying that chronus is/is not a whole new/seperate unit.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Gwar: That doesn't even make sense.

Page 89:
Chronus is always bought as an upgrade

If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following special rules for the remainder of the game: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character. He may not take command of a different tank.


HOW MUCH CLEARER DOES IT NEED TO BE? IF the tank dies, he has the profile, never at any point before that. He gains the profile because he forms a new unit.

No, what doesn't make sense is that you are argueing that he SUDDENLY/MAGICALLY changes from being an upgrade (part of the vehichle) to a seperate unit entirely.

...? I just don't get it?

Emperors Faithful wrote:No, what doesn't make sense is that you are argueing that he SUDDENLY/MAGICALLY changes from being an upgrade (part of the vehichle) to a seperate unit entirely.

...? I just don't get it?

Try reading the Rules for Chronus, specifically the part where it explains what happens when his Tank Blows up.

gotta log off! bye!

I cannot bring you one such rule as no one such rule exists, but no such rule exists for a multitude of other rules that we take for granted.

however I can give you a comprehensive list of rules regarding this incident that when read together should make it clear that he is an independent Character.

First off. Page89 of the Space Marine Codex
Tank commander rule:

"Chronus is always bought as an upgrade and starts the game as a commander of a space marine tank[...] When the damage has been resolved place him within 2inch of the vehicles position. If chronus vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following special rules for the remainder of the game[...]Independent Character"

From this rule we descern two things, whilst in the tank Chronus is an upgrade, but when he comes clear from the tank he becomes an independent character
Now independent character rules are pretty clear, page 47 of the BRB codex states

"Independent characters are represented by individual models, which fight as units in their own right"

A unit in their own right, therefore Chronus, who is an independent character has to be a unit in his own right.
When reading page 91 of the BRB it states

"Each player recieves 1 "killpoint" for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed"

Therefore Chronus is an independent character(it clearly states he is) an independent character is clearly a unit in its own right (it once again clearly states it is) and every unit regardless of what it is gives a killpoint according to annihilation rules.
I think thats pretty clear.

I'm baaaaaack! (but only for a while)
okay, it's a decent argument. But what if Chronus is blown up in the exlosion? (on 1-2). Is that killing 2 birds with one stone? (2 kill points?)

And it really doesn't answer whether or not Chronus can be charged. It doesn't say he can, and it doesn't say he can't. NO MENTION!

Also, would this kind of situation also apply if a sorceror turned someone into a Warpspawn? Would the soceror get the kill point (vs independant charachter) and would the Warpspawn relinquish a kill point also when killed? (as it did not exist beforehand).

@Drudge: It doesn't say he is a new unit. So he isn't, right?

He doesn't have to be a new unit. He is a unit. But he is not the same unit as the tank, no.

1 Gallery Image
1 Article Edit
Gallery Votes: 4
Posts: 971

Joined: 2008/04/17 11:13:34
Offline As i said before he always exists (you must see him sticking out the top of the tank he's commanding)

but he gains his profile and rules once the tank dies (If he survives)

So I you destroy the tank and he doesn't jump clear 1KP

If you shoot the tank destroy it and he jumps clear, he counts as part of that unit so you can charge him.

And if you then kill him you gain 1KP.

Right except for the part where he counts as being part of that unit. There is nothing in the rules to support him being part of a unit with the tank.

Id say it would not be two kill points, as he only gains the independent character rule when he leaves the tank, before then he is just an upgrade to the tank.

Actually it should clarify whether he can be charged or not, if he becomes a unit in his own right after the tank is destroyed, rather than being a unit in his own right inside the tank, then he wasn't embarked on the tank. Ergo he is a seperate unit that was not part of the transport and therefore cannot be charged by the unit that popped his tank.

I dont know the wording of the Warpspawn, so I cannot answer that question sorry.

combo wrote:

"Chronus is always bought as an upgrade and starts the game as a commander of a space marine tank[...] When the damage has been resolved place him within 2inch of the vehicles position. If chronus vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following special rules for the remainder of the game[...]Independent Character"

QFT. There you go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
RAW does not make ANY mention on whether or not he can be charged after his 'darring do Indianna/Chuck Norris dodge explosion' action.

Please point out a solid rule where it says Chronos can/not be charged.

I don't think there is one. The only option is to look at RAI. As he was PREVIOUSLY part of the unit, I would assume that he CAN be charged, IMO. I don't see why not. GW has stuffed this up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
gotta go! bye!

There is still nothing saying he's ever part of the unit.

Theres nothing saying he was part of the unit, for all intents and purposes he is a completely unrelated unit that spawns after the tank dies, and the rules for charging units are very clear.

So, to sum it up:

He's worth a killpoint because he's a seperate unit, and since he's an IC even if he was part of the unit he'd still be worth one.

He cannot be charged by a unit that blows up his tank because it doesn't say he can, unlike transports and passengers.

Disagree with your first point Drudge, it doesnt say he has the independent character rule until he leaves the tank, he actually appears to gaint he independent character rule when the tank explodes, therefore if he dies at the same time as the tank, you only lose 1 kill point.

Agree with your second point.


I think the best way to think of Chronus is that he is an upgrade for a tank that allows it to have bs5 and ignore shaken and stunned results and also allows the spawning of an unrelated chronus(1) model if the tank gets destroyed.

Yeah thats what i meant.

No one has yet addressed why he is not an upgrade character.

He is an upgrade.

He is a character.

He is bought for a specific unit.

Therefore he is an upgrade character THAT IS PART OF a unit which he cannot leave. (since that is the nature of an upgrade character). Nothing refers to him as a vehicle upgrade. His entry merely says "upgrade".

This makes him no different from any other character that cannot leave a unit, and makes a lot more sense than his state of "nonexistence." Much like the techmarine/cannon combo it is a mixed infantry/vehicle unit.

There's the answer to Drudge's question. His entry DOES say he is part of the unit but the fact must be inferred in conjunction with the rest of the game mechanics. Not everything has to be explicitly stated in every rule entry. We must infer a few things.

Whether he is an upgrade character or not seems unimportant, considering he is an Independent Character.

The rules for independent characters in regard to killpoints and how they work in combination with other units is pretty clear.

combo wrote:Whether he is an upgrade character or not seems unimportant, considering he is an Independent Character.

The rules for independent characters in regard to killpoints and how they work in combination with other units is pretty clear.

Oh, I agree with you on the KP issue combo. I disagree with the interpretation that he is not part of the Tank unit when it is destroyed. Since he is an upgrade character (that becomes an IC) he was part of the unit that got shot, and hence can be charged if he survives his bail out rule. He is not a new unit, but his stats change. He's still the same old Chronus that was previously part of the combined vehicle stats.

Does it actually say he's an upgrade character? Or is he just an upgrade that is also a character, or an upgrade that spawns a character? Because none of those are the same thing.

Also, if he is an Upgrade Character can you direct me to the rule section backing up your points?

Well, drudge he's an individual with a personal name. That makes him a character. GW to my knowledge never actually defines the term character other than "powerful individuals," and since I don't have a BRB handy I can't give you a direct quote. The character section of the rules deals with two types, Independent, and upgrade. The primary differences being one can leave the unit and one cannot.

Saying Chronus is not a character is a real stretch. If he isn't a character what is? Are only IC's characters?

His entry calls him an upgrade. Being an upgrade that is also a character makes him an upgrade character. That makes him part of the unit. If you want something that says "Chronus is an upgrade character" in those words there is no such line. There soesn't need to be. We need to make that small leap of logic ourselves.

Ah except it doesn't. It makes him exactly what it says he is. An upgrade. Perhaps he is a character too, but even if he is he is then just a character that is purchased as an upgrade. This is not the same as the Upgrade Characters referred to on page 47.

Whether or not hes worth a KP if he doesnt make it out of the tank all depends on what point his special rules kick in. Until then hes not an IC so until then hes not worth a KP. His rules do say that if his vehicle has been destroyed he then becomes an IC etc etc for the rest of the game, so since its not until after his vehicle is destroyed that we roll to see if he survives or not then it would seem that he would become an IC before we roll. So the instant his vehicle is destroyed he becomes an IC, even if he only lives until the next die roll kills him. Hes always worth a second KP then from the RAW.

Now, whether of not hes part of the tank unit is a bit more sticky since RAW doesnt explicitly tell us that. He is bought as an upgrade and has to be commander of a tank plus he is not an IC.

According to page 47 where the rules tell us about character types, we do find that characters are either ICs or else upgrade characters which are fielded as part of units.

Chronus is bought as an upgrade, and replaces the commander of a tank. This does give us grounds to consider him as possibly an upgrade character, which would make him part of the tank unit, which would then indeed mean that he could be charged in cc as part of the tank unit.
He IS listed as an upgrade, he becomes the commander of a tank and he does improve the unit with his enhanced characteristics ... so he meets the basic criteria for an upgrade character. This would appear to be the closest fit for him in the RAW.



Sliggoth

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Ah except it doesn't. It makes him exactly what it says he is. An upgrade. Perhaps he is a character too, but even if he is he is then just a character that is purchased as an upgrade. This is not the same as the Upgrade Characters referred to on page 47.

Now that right there is some twisted logic, Drudge.

He's a character.

He's an upgrade.

That is the very definition of upgrade character! What else COULD he be?

That line of argument is just silly.

"He's a character who is an upgrade, not an upgrade character." That doesn't even make sense by GW's slack definitions of sense.

He could be an upgrade that creates a character when his tank is destroyed for one. You are using inductive reasoning here. Just because all Upgrade Characters are characters that are upgrades doesn't mean all characters that are upgrades are Upgrade Chracters.

I would argue that he is very obviously NOT an upgrade character. Upgrade characters are things like sergeants and aspiring champions. They upgrade a model in a unit to a chracter with special options. Chronus doesn't do this. He just gives a vehicle a special rule. He doesn't upgrade a unit into another one. He's not turning a tank into a character with more options. He's not in a unit with the tank. For him to be would be ridiculous, as infantry cannot be in a unit with a vehicle, and vehicles don't even form units they form squadrens. So overall viewing Chronus as an upgrade character doesn't fit and opens up a whole can of new rules dilemmas that have no answers.

An upgrade character need not replace anything. Eldar warlocks are an example. You don't upgrade(replace) a guardian to a warlock, you add a warlock to the squad. In this case you add Chronus (a character) to a vehicle which he enhances. That makes him an upgrade character.

You have yet to prove he isn't in a unit with the tank as well. You assume that because it fits your argument.

As far as squadron vs unit, a squadron IS a unit. Read the definition of units early in the BRB (around p 5 or 6 IIRC) it clearly states that units may go by different names, but they are units nonetheless. As I've said before, just because normal characters cannot form units with vehicles does not mean Chronus can't since his rules tell us he MUST.

All of this to me makes him an obvious upgrade character.

I never said upgrade characters only upgrade units. I merely gave an example.

I'm not assuming it because it fits my argument, i'm assuing it because the rules never say he is. If the situation were as complex as you claim there would need to be more specific rules. In other words, since there are not more specific rules the situaiton is NOT as you claim.

What exactly do you expect though? The BRB tells us what upgrade characters are. Chronus fits that definition (as Sliggoth pointed out ^). That's hardly that complex. If you are wanting them to put "this guy is an upgrade character" in his entry, then I'm afraid you expect too much from GW.

Once in a while we need to put a few things together to make sense of them. This is such a case. To more specifically address what you said in your post, we don't need any "more specific" rules. They are all there, just not in one place.

edited to correct spelling of Sliggoth's name.

Hmm, upgrade a model in a unit to a character with special options....

Rather like giving their vehicle an improved BS, or being able to ignore a shaken or stunned result?

If we look to pg 5 we see that "vehicle crew members - the drivers, commanders and gunners - are assumed to be an integral part of their machine" Chronus does then become part of the unit, the vehicle that he joins. He does have special rules that give him a chance to survive the destruction of his vehicle, but we know that he is part of the vehicle up until its destroyed since he is the vehicles commander.

This alone tells us that according to RAW chronus is indeed part of the unit.

As far as the upgrade character rule on pg 47 goes, it tells us that such characters perhaps have a wider selction of weapons and wargear choices. Perhaps. That word tells us that the upgrade character doesnt have to have any wider selection of chocies at all, he can just be an upgrade character because he has enhanced characteristics over the part of the unit he is replacing.

Read pg 47. Chronus meets the basic definition of an upgrade character. He is replacing the commander of the tank and we then use his enhanced characteristics for the tank. He is not infantry while hes part of the tank, he is part of the vehicle unit since he is the commander.


RAW doesnt say the words " chronus can be assaulted by a unit that blows up his tank", but since he is definitely a part of that unit what prevents them? They are assaulting part of the unit that they fired upon, its not really different from shooting at and killing part of a unit and then assaulting whats left.


Sliggoth

I think he can be charged.

G

If you destroy a whole squad except the IC can you then charge the IC, despite it being a 'different unit'?

I would think you can.

Emperors Faithful wrote:If you destroy a whole squad except the IC can you then charge the IC, despite it being a 'different unit'?

I would think you can.

If you could or couldn't would have no bearing on this situation unless you are trying to argue that Chronus is an IC attached to his tank. Which there is no basis for.

I was trying to make a comparison. If Chronus is at any point PART of the tank, then it would be similar to that situation.

Anyway, the whole thing is hilarious becuase there is no basis for anything. It is only reasonable to assume that chronus can be charged. But there is no RAW (apart from how passengers are treated) to support this, just as there is no RAW to support the alternative.

We know from Pg 5 the rules on units that chronus is indeed part of his tank since he is the tank commander.

The status of chronus does indeed change after his tank is destroyed since at that point he becomes an IC. Previous to that point he seems to be an upgrade character. He is still chronus, altho GW does make you buy a second model with legs for this part ... maybe marketing wrote this rule (yes, make them buy two figs for each of their units $$).

So since we know from RAW that chronus was indeed part of the unit that was shot at, what is the arguement that the firing unit cannot then charge him?


Sliggoth

Kyrolon wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Ah except it doesn't. It makes him exactly what it says he is. An upgrade. Perhaps he is a character too, but even if he is he is then just a character that is purchased as an upgrade. This is not the same as the Upgrade Characters referred to on page 47.

Now that right there is some twisted logic, Drudge.

He's a character.

He's an upgrade.

That is the very definition of upgrade character! What else COULD he be?

That line of argument is just silly.

"He's a character who is an upgrade, not an upgrade character." That doesn't even make sense by GW's slack definitions of sense.

Im not sure whether he is an upgrade character so ill hold my tongue from this part of the debate, but i'd warn against this kind of logic. For instance alot of demons are not effected by demonhunter powers even though, they are demons, and the weapons say they hurt demons, simply because demons in the DH codex is defined as something different. You have to be careful with definitions in GW games.

Sliggoth wrote:We know from Pg 5 the rules on units that chronus is indeed part of his tank since he is the tank commander.

Buzzz! Wrong. He is an Upgrade, not part of the unit. Is Extra Armour or a H-K Missile part of a unit?

So since we know from RAW that chronus was indeed part of the unit that was shot at, what is the arguement that the firing unit cannot then charge him?

That's some Funny non Written RaW you have there.

The fact is, he goes from being an Upgrade, to an IC. If that does not constitute forming a new unit, I doubt mankind's collective intelligence

Technically according to the rules he doesn't exist as a character until the tank he is in is destroyed. Before that he is basically an upgrade.

This going no where discus before the game or ask you TO.

From pg 47 he meets the rules for being an upgrade character (that does make him a character), from pg 5 we see that :

"Vehicle crew members - the drivers, commanders and gunners - are assumed to be an integral part of their machine"


He goes from being an upgrade character to being IC.


Since RAW tells us he is a commander of the tank (SM pg 89), and that a commander of the tank is a part of the unit (RAW pg 5) that would mean that hes part of the unit.

Why is chronus considered a vehicle upgrade instead of a character upgrade? Hes not listed under the vehicle armoury section after all. His listing looks remarkably similar to sergeant telion or any of the various IG character upgrades.

In what way is he not an upgrade character?



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:In what way is he not an upgrade character?

In the way that his rules do not say he is an Upgrade character, they say he is an Upgrade.

Protip: Fluff is not Rules.

And, where does it say that he is a vehicle upgrade? It doesnt.

Protip: Fluff is not the Rules.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:And, where does it say that he is a vehicle upgrade? It doesnt.

Protip: Fluff is not the Rules.


Sliggoth

"Chronus is always bought as an upgrade"

Oh Snap!

but going from that so are warlocks in a guardian squad

statu wrote:but going from that so are warlocks in a guardian squad

Warlocks are defined as Infantry, Chronus is not until the tank dies and makes him.

Yes but Warlocks do not have the independent character special rule and so cannot be units in their own right unless a group of them get together.

i emant that they are upgrades

statu wrote:i emant that they are upgrades

No, they are upgrade characters. Chronus is an Upgrade the same as Extra Armour.

actually warlocks highlight the difference between upgrade characters and chronus.


Warlocks and upgrade characters have wounds, a presence on the battlefield and can fire weaponry fight etc and have wounds allocated onto them.

Chronus cannot, not until he leaves the tank and gains his rules.

Except that we have absolutely nothing telling us Chronus is a vehicle upgrade except for some wishful thinking. Or else give me an indication of where the rules tell us Chronus is a vehicle upgrade like extra armor?


While the rules for character upgrade does fit Chronus. He is fielded as part of a unit from the start of the game (hence his being under the vehicle category to start). He doesnt have an entry of his own and is effectively just another trooper in the unit (in this case we are told in the RAW that he is the tank commander). And he has enhanced characteristics ( improved BS and ignoring stun/ shaken). He meets ALL of the rules for a character upgrade.

He doesnt have to have separate wounds because he is fielded as part of a vehicle unit, he is a part of the unit and is replacing the commander so he is not adding any wounds to the unit.


Really the more we look at this, the clearer it becomes that chronus fits the bill as a character upgrade.

He does have a special rule that allows him to possibly escape the destruction of his unit, which thereby changes his unit type to infantry.


Sliggoth

i think that the reason he only gets his statline and the rest of his special rules is that, normally you cannot target anyone inside a tank, therefore there is no need for him to have a statline

Sliggoth wrote:Except that we have absolutely nothing telling us Chronus is a vehicle upgrade except for some wishful thinking. Or else give me an indication of where the rules tell us Chronus is a vehicle upgrade like extra armor?

he doesn't have to be a Vehicle upgrade, because he is just an Upgrade. Not a Upgrade Character.

But this is just becoming a case of "Gwar Tells you what the rule is, people ignore Gwar because they don't like him, 30 goto 10".

the definition of an upgrade character from page 47 of the Rule Book is "Fielded as part of units from the start of the game(Chronus fits this) representing a squad leader or unit champion, such as a space marine veteran sergeant. They do not have an entry of their own(oh dear, Chronus does) and are effectively just another trooper in their unit(Chronus is once again not inline with this) with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices"


Therefore Chronus only fits one of the three criteria for being an upgrade character.

Gwar! wrote:Page 67, Paragraph above the Dedicated Transports Box

Gwar! Just wondering, but do you walk around with the BRB all day?

orkishlyorkish wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Page 67, Paragraph above the Dedicated Transports Box

Gwar! Just wondering, but do you walk around with the BRB all day?

Yes.

Don't know about Gwar, but I actually do have the BRB next to me the majority of the day. Im working from home at the moment and the BRB is always sitting on my desk

combo wrote:Don't know about Gwar, but I actually do have the BRB next to me the majority of the day. Im working from home at the moment and the BRB is always sitting on my desk

I'm unemployed ;(

Gwar! wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:In what way is he not an upgrade character?

In the way that his rules do not say he is an Upgrade character, they say he is an Upgrade.

Protip: Fluff is not Rules.

Yup he's an upgrade for your army (not for the tank), that starts as a tank commander and later may become an actual IC. Because he only becomes an IC or a character at all after the tank is destroyed, he could never have been shot at or counted as being a transport in the tank at all. The rule is only for models that were being transported in the vehicle at the time. Besides if you follow he is counted as having been in the vehicle and can then be assaulted, that would mean you can only take him for tanks with a transport capacity and takes up space inside it.



-Orkishly


Automatically Appended Next Post:

combo wrote:Don't know about Gwar, but I actually do have the BRB next to me the majority of the day. Im working from home at the moment and the BRB is always sitting on my desk

That's what I call rule dedication
Sorry about your lack of a job Gwar! Hope you find a job soon.

GW should hire Gwar to fix their rules. I bet he'd do it cheap.

Give him a few bottles of rum and he'd do it for free.

combo wrote:Give him a few bottles of rum and he'd do it for free.

I'd need some Limes too.

Actually chronus fits the upgrade character list better than you mgiht think.

He is fielded as as part of the unit from the start of the game.

He does not have a separate entry of his own. (He must be assigned to one tank, he can not be taken as a heavy choice on his own by himself. If he had his own entry then he would take up a heavy slot). He is an upgrade character in the same way that sergeant telion or various IG characters are.

He is just another trooper in his unit. He is the tank commander, from pg 5 under vehicles we see that the commander is one of the crew members of the tank and is thereby assumed to be an integral part of the unit.


And the rules pointing to him being a vehicle upgrade are: *crickets*


He doesnt have to have been considered a passenger since he was part of the crew (commander remember?) and is thereby still part of the original tank unit.


Sliggoth

Except as we have pointed out to you, you cannot have units of vehicles and infantry outside Artillery, which a a tank is not. Unless I have missed a Giant sentence saying "CHRONUS' TANK IS ARTILLERY", I don't think it is.

There you go again arguing Fluff as rules. Didn't you see what we said the first time?

He does have a seperate entry of his own, its clearly there at the bottom of page 143.

He is not just another trooper in his unit, as he does not have a unit. He cannot be part of that unit as the only way infantry can be part of a vehicle unit is if the vehicle is an artillrry. Even if he tanks and infantry could be part of a unit together hehe still couldn't be defined as an upgrade character as he would still not be an enhanced version of his unit, as his unit is a tank and he is infantry, he's clearly not an enhanced tank...

+1

If he had a separate entry then he would take up a heavy slot, are you saying that Chronus only allows a SM to take two heavy slot choices plus himself? The separate entry part is what determines if the character is an upgrade (has to be bought as an upgrade to another unit) or is an IC. Chronus's entry is written exactly the same as Telion's and the various IG upgrade characters. If his entry counts as a separate entry, then so do all those others. Which would then mean that all those others are ICs, take up a force slot and count as a KP. Which none of them do, so no he doesnt have a separate entry in the codex. Counting his listing as a separate entry would make any of the other character listings also eat up force slots. None of there characters can be taken alone, they are all upgrades to another unit.


Chronus is a part of the tank unit, of course he isnt infantry to start with. Pg 5 the RAW tells us that the commander of the tank is an integral part of the unit so he is indeed considered a part of the vehicle unit. He only becomes an IC and infantry once he survives the rest of unit being destroyed. GW in a moment of clarity realized that since hes walking around he would need to be called an infantry unit from that point forward.

There is no need to worry about a combined unit of infantry and vehicles since as the commander of the tank Chronus is considered part of the vehicle unit.

Which exact part of the RAW do we have trouble with here?

From his entry in his codex and pg 5 in the brb we know that Chronus is commander of a tank, thereby he is a part of the vehicle unit and for game purposes is counted as part of the vehicle unit. I am not saying that he is an infantry unit when hes in his tank.

From the upgrade character rules on pg 47 we see that Chronus is an upgrade character.

The only unusual thing about chronus is that he can possibly survive the destruction of the rest uf his vehicle unit. He doesnt automatically survive, he can be killed by the fire.

Since he was a part of the unit, he can of course then be charged by whatever unit(s) shot at him earlier in the turn.


Im still not seeing any reason at all to count chronus as a vehicle upgrade. Nothing refers to him as a vehicle upgrade, he is bought as an upgrade to a tank unit just like all the other upgrade characters are bought as upgrades to their units. The only thing unusual about him is that he can survive the destruction of his tank, while pask from the IG cannot.


Sliggoth

But he doesnt survive his tank getting destroyed, the tank commander aspect of him dies and in its place an entirely new Independent character is spawned.


Even if he is an upgrade character when hes in the tank, that part of him dies when the tank dies, he's an independent character afterward.

Again, Arguing fluff as rules...

Someone leave a record stuck?

Fluff, hmm, so the definition of fluff is anything in the rules that doesnt agree with your view?

What I have mentioned is all part of the rules, not part of any fluff heading in any of the books.

The only stuck record would appear to be the one of saying that chronus is a vehicle upgrade while pointing to nothing in the raw that supports that claim.


@combo His rules specifically say that Chronus dies on a roll of 1-2. On a roll of 3+ he does not die and changes into an infantry unit with an infantry stat line. We are told its still chronus, he just is using his infantry statline from that point on whereas he was previously part of a vehicle unit.


Sliggoth

also units of Warlocks in the Eldar codex can be bought without taking up a force organisation chart. Likewise so are Command Squads in the Space Marine codex. Being in a grey box does not automatically make them an upgrade character or a force organisation choice.

combo wrote:also units of Warlocks in the Eldar codex can be bought without taking up a force organisation chart. Likewise so are Command Squads in the Space Marine codex. Being in a grey box does not automatically make them an upgrade character or a force organisation choice.

No, bad combo. </Newspaper2Nose> Disagreeing with him makes you an evil troll!

Combo is coming up with good points and showing reasons in the various rules to back up his interpetation. THAT is certainly not trollish behaviour.


@combo I agree completly that being in a grey box doesnt make them an upgrade character or a force organization choice. But a grey box unit is not a separate unit that can be taken by itself. All of those boxes are units that can only be taken as an upgrade if you are also taking some other unit as well. Warlocks can be bought if you buy a farseer, command squads can be bought if you buy a SM captain, any of the upgrade characters can be bought if you buy whatever type of unit that they are an upgrade for.
None of them are a separate stand alone listing.
If they had a separate listing then they would take up a force slot and be an independent unit or IC.
Thats what pg47 is telling us, that an upgrade character isnt an IC that takes up a unit slot.


Sliggoth

Actually the specific wording of the rule is

"if a result is a 3 or more chronius leaps clear at the last second - when the damage has been resolved place him within 2" of the vehicles position. if Chronius vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following Special Rules for the reimainder of the game: and the shall know no fear, combat tactics, independent character. He may not take command of a different tank"

He doesn't at any point disembark from the tank, he is just placed within two inches of it. But that just regards whether he counts as a passanger wereas he is clearly not.

Your arguement hinges on the idea that a tank is an amalgamation of Commander crew and tank making a multipersonal unit and that when the tank is destroyed the unit itself is not destroyed as the upgrade character survives, keeping the same units alive technically. However thats not true as Chronius becomes an independent character, which is a unit in its own right, as it becomes one in either the shooting or assault phase and IC can only join units in the movement phase. So even if he is an upgrade character the point is unimportant as he loses being an upgrade character part of a unit and becomes an independent character, a unit in its own right.

Yes, his rule makes it clear that it is indeed still chronus all the way through the process. It was Chronus inside the tank, it was chronus leaping clear and it is chronus who turns into an IC.



@ combo And now that line of reasoning is a good one. Chronus now has the IC rule and is no longer an upgrade character, so he follows the IC rules. That is the basis for an arguement that chronus is now a new unit, replacing the old unit of which he was a part.


Very good, it argues that all the rest of us were wrong because we got bogged down in the details but that since Chronus changes from an upgrade character to an IC he forms an entirely new unit. So he is no longer a part of the old vehicle unit, as a new unit he cannot be charged.


That makes a good deal of sense from how the rules are written. Its moved me from thinking that for certain hes still the same unit to now very uncertain indeed for charging purposes.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:That makes a good deal of sense from how the rules are written. Its moved me from thinking that for certain hes still the same unit to now very uncertain indeed for charging purposes.

And the fact that I have been saying this since page one is not a factor because....

A Gwar Well, because you were stating that Chronus was simply a vehicle upgrade. So then the arguement spun off into the sidelines about proving that he was indeed an upgrade character.

Combo developed the arguement on Chrono being an upgrade character and made a line of reasoning that showed that the switch of Chronus from an upgrade character to an IC might very well make him an entirely new unit, thereby making him immune to a charge.

This line of reasoning doesnt seem to have anything in the raw that would contradict it, so its a valid point that stands well.


Just stating over and over that chronus is a vehicle upgrade isnt up to your usual standards of basing well thought out arguements on arcane points of the raw.


Sliggoth

If we accept Combo's point that Chronus (who was part of the unit that was shot) becomes a new unit when he gains the IC rules, then what about other cases of this happening? There are other characters that change status from UC to IC. The Broodlord is the best example I can think of.

If I shoot at a Brooldlord's retinue (where he counts as an UC because it is a retinue) and wipe out the genestealers does that make the BL a whole new unit that I can't assault?

That's essentially the statement combo is making in regard to Chronus. He was part of the unit that was shot when it was shot. Changing his profile, even if he's now a unit of 1 infantry, doesn't negate the fact that he was shot at. Otherwise this would apply to any of the remaining "retinue" characters (Broodlords, Inquisitors, Archons, an maybe a couple I missed) as well.

I may be way off on this one, but can't only models be part of a unit? And Chronus's model when he's in a tank is purely representative. He can't be in the same unit as a tank because he has no model.

And i aree with Gwar. The stuff where it says that crewmembers are part of their vehicles is fluff put in to clarify why there are no longer rules for them like there were in old codexes.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:I may be way off on this one, but can't only models be part of a unit? And Chronus's model when he's in a tank is purely representative. He can't be in the same unit as a tank because he has no model.

I'd say the half a guy you have to buy and add to the tank to represent him would be called a model.

And i aree with Gwar. The stuff where it says that crewmembers are part of their vehicles is fluff put in to clarify why there are no longer rules for them like there were in old codexes.

I'd disagree. It is in the section defining what makes up a unit (through examples). That's hardly fluff. If it is you have a pretty broad definition of fluff.

Kyrolon wrote:If we accept Combo's point that Chronus (who was part of the unit that was shot) becomes a new unit when he gains the IC rules, then what about other cases of this happening? There are other characters that change status from UC to IC. The Broodlord is the best example I can think of.

If I shoot at a Brooldlord's retinue (where he counts as an UC because it is a retinue) and wipe out the genestealers does that make the BL a whole new unit that I can't assault?

That's essentially the statement combo is making in regard to Chronus. He was part of the unit that was shot when it was shot. Changing his profile, even if he's now a unit of 1 infantry, doesn't negate the fact that he was shot at. Otherwise this would apply to any of the remaining "retinue" characters (Broodlords, Inquisitors, Archons, an maybe a couple I missed) as well.

Their are different rules concerning retinue characters, the point is the strange nature of Chronus and the fact he gains the Independent Character rule when the tank is destroyed, therefore my arguement only holds true for Chronus, and any other "upgrade Character" that gains Independent character USR when its unit is destroyed. I dont think another such example exists.

Kyrolon wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:I may be way off on this one, but can't only models be part of a unit? And Chronus's model when he's in a tank is purely representative. He can't be in the same unit as a tank because he has no model.

I'd say the half a guy you have to buy and add to the tank to represent him would be called a model.

His model when on the tank is representative. Its not its own based model. Its part of the tank put there to represent Chronus being on it. I don't see how that could be part of a squad any more than the stormbolter or extra armor could.

combo wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:If we accept Combo's point that Chronus (who was part of the unit that was shot) becomes a new unit when he gains the IC rules, then what about other cases of this happening? There are other characters that change status from UC to IC. The Broodlord is the best example I can think of.

If I shoot at a Brooldlord's retinue (where he counts as an UC because it is a retinue) and wipe out the genestealers does that make the BL a whole new unit that I can't assault?

That's essentially the statement combo is making in regard to Chronus. He was part of the unit that was shot when it was shot. Changing his profile, even if he's now a unit of 1 infantry, doesn't negate the fact that he was shot at. Otherwise this would apply to any of the remaining "retinue" characters (Broodlords, Inquisitors, Archons, an maybe a couple I missed) as well.

Their are different rules concerning retinue characters, the point is the strange nature of Chronus and the fact he gains the Independent Character rule when the tank is destroyed, therefore my arguement only holds true for Chronus, and any other "upgrade Character" that gains Independent character USR when its unit is destroyed. I dont think another such example exists.

See, I don't see Chronus as that different. The retinue rules may conver specific situations, but their effect is to make the IC count as a unit UC while part of the retinue. So, if they go from unit UC to IC upon the death of said retinue, that (to me at least) is the same as Chronus going from UC to IC when his tank dies, or a techmarine going from unit member to IC if his thunderfire gets blown up. I don't see any of the three cases making a whole new unit that was not part of the original unit that was shot at. In ebery case there was potential for the subject to die along with the unit from the fire that killed the rest of the unit whether is was the IC's retinue, the techmarine's thunderfire, or Chronus' tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:I may be way off on this one, but can't only models be part of a unit? And Chronus's model when he's in a tank is purely representative. He can't be in the same unit as a tank because he has no model.

I'd say the half a guy you have to buy and add to the tank to represent him would be called a model.

His model when on the tank is representative. Its not its own based model. Its part of the tank put there to represent Chronus being on it. I don't see how that could be part of a squad any more than the stormbolter or extra armor could.

Except as sliggoth has pointed out numerous times (as have I earlier) he's not a vehicle upgrade. The model represents the character named Chronus, not a piece of wargear.

But chronus is different, Independent characters with retinues still have the independent character special rule, Chronus doesn't, he only gains it when the tank dies, no other model in the game to my knowledge apart from Chronus gains the independent character rule half way through.

Telion if his scouts die isnt an independent character, he's just an upgrade character who happens to be all thats left in its squad.

it tends to be either an independent character can have a retinue, in which case he's an IC with a attached retinue, and if the retinue dies he's still an IC, he just doesnt have a retinue anymore. Or they are upgrade characters attached to a squad or unit, if the unit dies they are still upgrade characters, they just no longer have their unit.

Chronus is a one off, he is an upgrade character who gains the independent character special rule when his unit dies.
The closest thing to chronus is the Techmarine with thunderfire cannon, but even then the Techmarine has the independent character special rule even when he is part of the thunderfire cannon team, Chronus does not.

Ok, combo, I now see the distinction you are making, and it does make Chronus slightly different. In my judgement though, that difference isn't enough to make a practical difference in how it's played. The way I see it the fact that Chronus gains a new rule does not make him a new unit. I am also swayed by the fact that Chronus can die by the same fire that killed his tank. That (to me anyway) is a strong indication that he could be assaulted.

In other words, we agree on what the rules say, and on which rules apply, but we disagree on what they mean.

This thread is generating a fair amount of Mod Alerts for rudeness and such.

7 pages and counting, and it doesn't look like its going to get 'settled' anytime soon.

Keep it on topic and polite.

Well I mean no disrespect Kyrolon I think you should read the rules for independent characters in the BRB again, as it states they are units in their own right, as soon as he gains IC he becomes a unit in his own right.

combo wrote:Well I mean no disrespect Kyrolon I think you should read the rules for independent characters in the BRB again, as it states they are units in their own right, as soon as he gains IC he becomes a unit in his own right.

I understand that, and don't disagree. But, I don't think becoming a unit in his own right makes him ineligible for assault. He is now a unit by himself rather than part of the tank, but he was still part of the tank unit when it was shot.

This goes back to our discussion of other IC's that start as UC's. Even though they start with the IC rule and Chronus doesn't, both they and Chronus (as you have pointed out) become units in their own right upon the death of the unit they were previously part of. In all the examples we discussed (retinue, Thunderfire, Chronus) the unit that is formed by a newly "orphaned" IC was previously part of another unit, and not a unit on its own at all.

In my opinion then, based on that reasoning, if you can't assault Chronus for the reason that he is a new unit, then any IC that gets spun off from a destroyed unit they couldn't leave before works the same way. In all the cases the IC is not its own unit until the associated unit (retinue, cannon, or tank) dies, so you'd have to apply your interpretation equally to all three.

I'd still say though that "being a unit in his own right" does not make him a new unit. It just changes the way he bahaves on the battlefield. Chronus, as a unit was always there, he just couldn't leave his tank before.

Im not quite sure you understand my reasoning yet. My examples were not that when they become orphaned from their unit they become units in all cases.

Independent characters that are independent characters when they are already joined to the unit are still part of the unit after the unit dies because of the rule that independent characters can only join or leave the unit during the movement phase. This is the only reason why you can charge independent characters when the unit they were in dies.

However if a unit gains independent character rule when the unit dies, it becomes a unit in its own right, and obviously cannot be part of a unit as it can only join in the movement phase.

Also I disagree that Chronius is effected by the fire from a destroyed vehicle. The passangers and anyone with in d6 inches is effected by an explosion but Chronius is not, as he spawns after it.

Ok, I think your argument is a little clearer now, but I still disagree that being an independent character negates the fact that Chronus was a part of the unit that got shot .

Even though he can only join in the movement phase, this is irrelevant as he was already part of the unit due to his own rules that said he had to be.

Gaining the IC rule does not change what was already done. To try to put it simply, he doesn't need to join the dead unit. He was already a part of it when it died whether he had the IC rule or not.

I"m not sure what you mean about the fire from the destroyed vehicle, I didn't intend to say that it affected Chronus. It seems clear he can't be placed til after that.

Fro what it's worth, I understand the points you are making, combo, and they are well reasoned, I just happen to disagree with them. If you wish to continue our discussion (which I am finding interesting and polite) feel free. I'll be away from my computer for the next several hours at least. If you post more please don't think I am ignoring you.

He acts as an upgrade until the tank is destroyed. When it is destroyed he is placed near the wreck. Technically Upgrade Chronus and IC Chronus are two different things as it can be assumed as Upgrade Chronus dies with the tank and on a 3+ IC Chronus is placed on the table. Anyone seen The Prestige? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/

That's kind of how I see the rules regarding Chronus working as a way to simplify it. It is Chronus, but isn't at the same time.

After reading the intelligent arguements accurately refrencing the rules, I understand combo's reasoning. His last post explained it well. Until there is an errata I would treat him like no other model in the game. Similar to Kharn the Betrayer who has rule unique only to him. Great work on explaining your positions and reasoning, combo and Kyrolon.

edited for spelling. Is there a spell checker in here?

So the fact that I was right from the start means nothing?

Or is it When Gwar! says it he is an donkey-cave but when someone else says the EXACT SAME THING he is suddenly Jesus 2.0?

Looks that way Gwar!

Gwar, you are right it's just that it takes time of discussion to explain reasoning to people. People won't just take another persons opinion as the word of God.

You have a fantastic track record(heck i dont think there has been a single time were you've been wrong that i've seen) for being right, but you do tend to get a bit aggravated rather than keep your cool and argue your point!

Please do not take my comment as a jab personally. I prefer to able to explain why something is so everyone can understand. combo and Kyrolon did a fine job with that. Being right is a good thing. Being able to articulate why you are right is even better. In my opinion of course.

With the IC question that combo raises it now comes down to a real gap in the RAW as to whether or not Chronus is a valid charge target or not. Is the change to IC status and forming a new unit enough to mean that the Chronus no longer counts as having been part of the previous tank unit?

Chronus has definitely changed (we do know its still Chronus because his rule on surviving the destruction of his vehicles tells us that) status; the question is whether or not he still has enough ties to his vehicle to still be considered the same unit.

The rules just dont tell us enough about what is going on with him. If he forms an entirely new unit then that would be a pretty clean break and indicate that he can no longer be counted as any part of the previous tank unit.

But if the various changes to his status are just that ...changes... then he is still part of the same unit just with new stats.

He is certainly affected by new rules in his new form, but nothing explicitly tells us he is an entirely new unit for certain. There are indications that he may be a new unit, but it could all just be changes to an existing unit. Either way he is in a class by himself.


But the changes are fairly major, far more so than any other character changes in the game. Other characters can have changes in their statlines and special rules during the course of a game without becoming a new unit but Chronus seems to be unique in being able to change his unit type.

Is it enough? I dont think we can tell for certain, as enough reasonable question has been raised to move this into the area of we need a FAQ answer to know which way to go.


Sliggoth

Folks, you are being trolled by GWAR. This is how he laughs at you. Find something in the rulebook where its not 100% covered by the rules, and he'll argue the same sad arguement until you are blue in the face.

Space Marine codex "Chronos is an upgrade to a vehicle unit. When the vehicle is no more, there is a 3+ chance chronos lives and is placed within 2" of the wreck."

If he's part of the vehicle unit as suggested by the space marine codex, then he's a viable target to assault.
If you argue he's not part of the vehicle unit as the space marine codex suggests, then he nearly enough follows the same rules as passengers of a blown up vehicle, that you may still assault him if you have range. According to the BRB (big red book) crew are considered to be dead or non-combantants, thus no rules are further needed on how to handle them. Chronos is a crew member who lives, the most logical thing to do is treat him the same way as passengers.

Chronos is unique, but not an independant character. Either way he appears to be assaultable by the same unit that blew up the vehicle.
Edit- I have made an erroneous statement, my appologies, he is IC, oops!
Happy Hunting.

Sazzlefrats wrote:the most logical thing to do is treat him the same way as passengers

Except for that fact that he isn't, and therefore cannot be assaulted because he was an Upgrade, and then turned into a separate unit.

combo wrote:Gwar, you are right it's just that it takes time of discussion to explain reasoning to people. People won't just take another persons opinion as the word of God.

You have a fantastic track record(heck i dont think there has been a single time were you've been wrong that i've seen) for being right, but you do tend to get a bit aggravated rather than keep your cool and argue your point!

GWAR just stated in this thread that Chronos is an IC... That is absolutely wrong.

Edited: He does become an IC

Chronus is an IC once his tank dies... because he is a new unit and is worth a second KP, because he is A SEPARATE UNIT.

This was too funny Gwar!, thank you.

Gwar! wrote:Chronus is an IC once his tank dies... because he is a new unit and is worth a second KP, because he is A SEPARATE UNIT.

NO you are wrong. He is not an independant character... show me. prove it. you can't. done and done.



Edit- I have made an erroneous statement, my appologies

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Chronus is an IC once his tank dies... because he is a new unit and is worth a second KP, because he is A SEPARATE UNIT.

NO you are wrong. He is not an independant character... show me. prove it. you can't. done and done.

Protip: READ HIS SPECIAL RULES.

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Chronus is an IC once his tank dies... because he is a new unit and is worth a second KP, because he is A SEPARATE UNIT.

NO you are wrong. He is not an independant character... show me. prove it. you can't. done and done.

Protip: READ HIS SPECIAL RULES.

Ahhh... I'm wrong!!!!!! AYIYIYIYYYEEEEE!!!!! Wow that does hurt... not so done as I thought.


Reguardless: Follow - part II of what I was saying, close enough to the same rules as passengers.

Close, but no Cigar is the phrase you want.

He is not a passenger, so he cannot be assaulted by the unit who blew up the tank.

He was transported by the tank, crew or not, close enough, he's assaultable

Sazzlefrats wrote:He was transported by the tank, crew or not, close enough, he's assaultable

So are you saying that if he has command of a Rhino or Razorback or Land Raider, no other unit may embark? Because he doesn't get IC until after the tank dies, so if he is a passenger, no other unit may embark.

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:He was transported by the tank, crew or not, close enough, he's assaultable

So are you saying that if he has command of a Rhino or Razorback or Land Raider, no other unit may embark? Because he doesn't get IC until after the tank dies, so if he is a passenger, no other unit may embark.

No

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:He was transported by the tank, crew or not, close enough, he's assaultable

So are you saying that if he has command of a Rhino or Razorback or Land Raider, no other unit may embark? Because he doesn't get IC until after the tank dies, so if he is a passenger, no other unit may embark.

No

So how is he a Passenger?

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:He was transported by the tank, crew or not, close enough, he's assaultable

So are you saying that if he has command of a Rhino or Razorback or Land Raider, no other unit may embark? Because he doesn't get IC until after the tank dies, so if he is a passenger, no other unit may embark.

No

So how is he a Passenger?

I have already addressed this in my first post. Thank you.

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:He was transported by the tank, crew or not, close enough, he's assaultable

So are you saying that if he has command of a Rhino or Razorback or Land Raider, no other unit may embark? Because he doesn't get IC until after the tank dies, so if he is a passenger, no other unit may embark.

No

So how is he a Passenger?

I have already addressed this in my first post. Thank you.

No, he is either a Passenger or not. If he is, no other unit may embark.

He isn't though, so the point is moot.

Moot points are up for debate.

kirsanth wrote:Moot points are up for debate.

Oh hai guise you called?

And again,

kirsanth wrote:This was too funny Gwar!, thank you.

LOL

Why do we care about other units embarking? GWAR stop throwing in abuigity!

When a vehicle with Chronos blows up, if Chronos lives, he's assaultable just like any other passenger. His special rules allow him to be exempt from the other infantry rules while aboard his vehicle. However when he's expelled from the wrecked vehicle, he's treated like any other disembarked passenger.

And you will say, "but he's not a passenger" and you are right... sort of. Not really. you'll find some logical fallacy to argue with. but thats ok, thats how you debate.

No, I am saying if he is treated as a Passenger, then he must count as the Transports passengers. If he does, no other unit can embark.

Gwar! wrote:No, I am saying if he is treated as a Passenger, then he must count as the Transports passengers. If he does, no other unit can embark.

You know how sometimes in this game, something counts as something for one purpose but in all other respects is something else?

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, I am saying if he is treated as a Passenger, then he must count as the Transports passengers. If he does, no other unit can embark.

You know how sometimes in this game, something counts as something for one purpose but in all other respects is something else?

Yeah, but where does it say Chronus counts as a passenger? Nowhere.

Where's Frazz and his picture of beating a dead horse when you need him?

Sazzlecats, you're bringing up arguements that have already been disproven in this eight page thread, this is why when we seem to be coming to a close in a discussion it always gets brought back up, because people feel the need to voice their opinions without checking the validility of them.


Your entitled to your opinion, but if your going to ignroe the huge discussion that has disproven it and spout it of as fact then you cannot be surprised when people don't take you seriously.

I wouldn't be upset or surprised if some people didn't take me seriously. In fact, I would be shocked if everyone took me totally seriously. It just seems that Chronos follows enough of rules for being a passenger that he can be assaulted like a passenger if his transport is popped.
In a tournament environment, I'm sure he'll be treated as a passenger for purposes of whether or not he can be assaulted. In a pure blind RAW argument, it appears you'll end up with an illogical conclusion, that seems contrary to what you'd expect to happen in a casual game.

No offence, but my Land Raider follows enough of the rules for Fast vehicles, does that mean it can move 18"?

No, it can't, because it is not fast.

Likewise, Chronus is not a passenger.

i know that this my stray into RAI, but when you shoot at a tank and passengers pile out, then you attack them, even if you can't see them before they escape, so you should be able to watch someone jump from a tank, and then assault them as you watch them jump.

statu wrote:i know that this my stray into RAI, but when you shoot at a tank and passengers pile out, then you attack them, even if you can't see them before they escape, so you should be able to watch someone jump from a tank, and then assault them as you watch them jump.

It's a good thing we play by the rules. Otherwise I would autowin all the games I play because I have an Inquisitor and I can just Nuke it from orbit.

I think the better way to state that is, "It's a good thing that I play by the rules as I understand them." Not everything has a RAW answer in the game.

Shall we all settle on he's a weirdo but since he exists as part of the Tank (till it dies) he then should count as being part of the tank's unit. He is not a passenger he is Part of the tank that can keep on going. So if I shot the tank i can assault part of the tank

Tri wrote:Shall we all settle on he's a weirdo but since he exists as part of the Tank (till it dies) he then should count as being part of the tank's unit. He is not a passenger he is Part of the tank that can keep on going. So if I shot the tank i can assault part of the tank

That's my viewpoint on it. YMMV.

Tri wrote:Shall we all settle on he's a weirdo but since he exists as part of the Tank (till it dies) he then should count as being part of the tank's unit. He is not a passenger he is Part of the tank that can keep on going. So if I shot the tank i can assault part of the tank

When he emerges he is not part of the tank though. He exists as part of the tank, then he becomes something new.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dietrich wrote:That's my viewpoint on it. YMMV.

Considering it it utterly wrong...

Gwar! wrote:Considering it it utterly wrong...

Calling other people wrong does nothing to build your position.

There is not a RAW answer for this situation. As I have said about other matters, if it's an issue, ask the Tourney Organizer. Preferrably beforehand. Get a consensus opinion in your gaming group.

Gwar! wrote:No offence, but my Land Raider follows enough of the rules for Fast vehicles, does that mean it can move 18"?

No, it can't, because it is not fast.

Likewise, Chronus is not a passenger.

Standard GWAR manuever... when no viable comeback is available... rely upon the absurd.

I spent hours yesterday and the day before explaining and bothering to reason with people, I spent ages writing up concise arguements, then a day later people come say the exact same stuff that I've already spent hours debating against, without furthering the point or bringing a new piece of evidence to the table.


Its no wonder Gwar just trolls people who disagree with him.

None of the arguements presented since I summed up the IC arguement a day ago have been based on any actual quotation from the Rules, they've al been based on Reason Logic and Common Sense, something that should not be used when debating something.

Whether the rules make sense or not is unimportant, it might be logical that Chronus is a passanger, but the fact is he's never been defined as a passenger.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:Shall we all settle on he's a weirdo but since he exists as part of the Tank (till it dies) he then should count as being part of the tank's unit. He is not a passenger he is Part of the tank that can keep on going. So if I shot the tank i can assault part of the tank

When he emerges he is not part of the tank though. He exists as part of the tank, then he becomes something new.

Then he becomes something new let me check ... No he just get his stat-line and some rules. "If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following special rules ...." So clearly he must exist before the tank dies or there would be no point in switch his stat-line and rules on.
"Cronus leaps clear at the last second ..." (no screaming fluff its describing what is happening) "...when the damage has been resolved place him within 2" of the vehicles position." So Cronos exists in the tank and then he leaps clear (if only this could be taught to the rookies) where his stat-line and rules are switched on.

combo wrote:.

None of the arguements presented since I summed up the IC arguement a day ago have been based on any actual quotation from the Rules, they've al been based on Reason Logic and Common Sense, something that should not be used when debating something.

Whether the rules make sense or not is unimportant, it might be logical that Chronus is a passanger, but the fact is he's never been defined as a passenger.

I'll agree that Saz is beating a dead horse. It's been clear for quite some time that Chronus was not a passenger. Whether he is part of the unit was the lengthy debate.

As far as applying reason to the rules, how else are we to interpret them? It's pretty obvious you can't play by literal RAW. Half the rules in the game break down that way. In fact the original article that spawned RAW was essentially saying read what's written and understand what it says.

I think the people that take the strict literal isolationist (looking at every rule in isolation) view on the rules are doing the game a disservice. We have to look at everything in context with the rest of the game. English is too imprecise to do otherwise.

No one was ignoring the rules you quoted combo, an no one on the other side of the debate was posting the rules they needed because the ones they would have posted were already posted by you or Gwar. The debate was over in what way those rules applied to the situation. I don't think that's unworthy of debate.

Reading this discussion, I thought of the upgrade you can buy for Tau Monat Crisis teams, the ejection system.
When the Battlesuit (jump infantry) is destroyed, it is replaced with a model with a new profile, new type (infantry) and new rules.
Would you be able to assault that model after shooting at it? If not, why not?

RAW seems fairly ambiguous to me.
However, it does seem intuitive to treat him the same way as passengers of a vehicle that has been destroyed. If you still don't want him to be assaulted, place him 2 inches on the other side of your tank and they'll be >6 inches away anyway.

Given GW's writing style, the amount of legacy codices and the number of super special rules, I find it hard to comprehend why someone would steadfastly use RAW to a situation the rules were not designed for.

I'll say it again. Has anyone seen The Prestige? (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/synopsis). It will help with simplifying how the rule works. I could also summarise it with spoilers if no one wants to read the plot synopsis.

Yes I have seen the prestige, and I think its a fantastic way to describe what happens

I'm still sticking with the earlier assesment that Chronus is unique like no other in the game. Gwar and Combo have shown this to be true. The best advice given is to discuss it with your TO and gaming group to make sure you playing him by how you will be judged. I hope this topic dies soon.

As this thread has beaten the Dead Horse right out of existence in this universe, and propelled it into another where the laws of space and time are radically different from ours, it is time to move on.

(i.e., too many personal attacks now!)

Thread locked.