I've got two very quick batreps and my IG ard boyz list will be revealed (my sisters baby shower is that weekend, so it will go unplayed)

Here is my IG list.

CCS 4x melta chimera heavy flamer

PBS (8 psykers) chimera heavy flamer
PBS (8 psykers) chimera heavy flamer

vets 3x melta chimera heavy flamer
vets 3x melta chimera heavy flamer
vets 3x melta chimera heavy flamer
vets 3x melta chimera heavy flamer

2x devildogs heavy flamer
2x devildogs heavy flamer
2x devildogs heavy flamer

2x medusa bastion breacher heavy flamer
2x medusa bastion breacher heavy flamer
manticore heavy flamer



Played against 2 different ork armies. Both had 45 lootas. I got pretty convincing wins in both games, first was KP which was a snap, the objective game got a little tougher with lootas going after my troops early.

First game his list was 45 lootas, 6 deffkoptas, 4 battlewagons, a meganob unit, 3x20 boy units, a kff mek and ghazgul. How it went down was that my heavy support was ample for battlewagon removal. I started turn 1 opening up a wagon, and then on turn 2 I was able to completely seal off the wagons from movement with devildog blocking. On the next turn the medusa cracked another wagon. The manticore would just crush whatever fell out, and with +2 to damage results, for both my medusa and my meltacannon it was often an explosion result. Even with 18 tanks, I could deploy central enough to the table to not let deffkoptas charge from reserve.

Battlewagons that need to get close to win seem to have serious trouble when you can use fast vehicles to wall them up for a turn or two. Orks obviously don't have meltas, so me getting close to their transports wasn't really dangerous. His 45 lootas were overworked trying to answer all my threats quickly, and every time they didn't deliver, it was devastating.


The next game was against 45 lootas a full 11 man nob biker unit, 3x20 boys with rokkits and 3 shooty open topped wagons. This game was a bit harder because it was objectives and he went after my troops. It was dawn of war, but I deployed a chimera and vets on the table so I could spotlight the bikers. I klled 7 bikers and weaken resolved the nobs on bottom of turn 1. He passed his test, but it wasn't really a big deal, they killed a couple of tanks and then I killed 1 more model and weaken resolved them again. The shootier boys were a bit more of a problem, and his lootas were a bit hotter than my previous opponents, but I managed to get rid of all of his troops and all of his wagons as the game came to a close. I was out of ammo on my manticore, and had 2 units of vets left, both of them walking, but I managed to get one on an objective and out of LOS, and then I shook his hand.

Nob bikers driving into a modern IG armies heavy support are hard pressed. Its tough for them at 1750. 2500 just gave me too many points to buy meltacannons, medusas and manticores. For the record I didn't shoot a single meltagun into the nob bikers on turn 1. And the list had 16. So I don't think a list with two nob bikers would be any better against IG.

Ultimately. I don't really think there is an ork army for IG to worry about. If I were going to ard boyz, I'd probably take IG as its my main army.

However, I am petrified of jetlocks. I think some EML wave serpents and a big jetlock unit or two just ruins my particular list. I don't really know for sure. But I have strong suspicions. Also, something built around vulkan could be quite scary as well. I'm thinking lots of terminators, bikes with MM, masses of speeders could all combine to make a mess of my neatly organized formation i think the vulkan lists would be more of a slugout, whereas the eldar match could go downhill fast.

Non-shooty demons just won't be a problem since the PBS are back in my list. Shooty demons should be pretty tough, although I'm not sure how well bolt of tzeentch scales. Might not have enough of them for 18 tanks.

CSM? unless they can take more than 9 oblits, I don't think they can hang. 9 oblits and 3 land raiders probably isn't enough, thanks to all of my heavy armor hate.

Who am I forgetting?

My prediction for ard boys. Eldar, Vulkan or IG. Depending on who gets the lucky matchups.

IG is a more powerful list at 2500 than it is at 1750 IMO. And it should be pretty easy to see why. It could function well with a single force org chart in a 3500 game. Almost everyone else except marines and eldar hit force org caps and then have to buy stuff they don't want. I think this informs the ard boyz metagame pretty well.

Feel free to take my analysis apart if it needs it .

Thanks for reading and sorry the batreps are so short.

I agree with most of what you've said. However, I think Demons should be added to the list of armies that scale well to 2500. The 24 Crushers and 3 DP's alone can be anywhere from 1500 to 1700 points. With 4 heralds and some troops, you could easily go well beyond 2500.

Similar list to what I had planned for my IG at 1750 apart from 2 less medusa, less vets, no PBS etc. Problem is at 1750 -I didnt have enough points to get enough hulls to protect the medusas/manticores. Ah well.

Nice reports anyway, thanks for writing it.

2500 is just a really staggering amount of points (especially for UK tourny players) and the meta really changes at that level imo. I agree mostly with your analysis..mech eldar (especially with 2 bikecouncils..but I don't think you will see that-too many points and a bitch to convert all those locks on bikes =P. Plus Eldrad is a beast.) well played is a real bitch to play against..do you shoot the 36 inch moving tanks or the seer council thats being rammed down your throat? What about the jetbikes which all have fortuned cover saves who are going to contest/score.

Vulkan marines is also very difficult to play against..the normal mech vulkan I think is beatable since it ends up a war of attrition in the middle with a no-go melta zone of death...IG have better long range firepower IMO.

However this bike/speeder vulkan list that is being talked about is very very nasty, over 4-5 land speeders and 4-5 attack bikers with multimeltas + machine spirited land raiders, all twin linked and moving 12 inches a turn can cause a lot of damage. Good thing is your PBS's are excellent vs that list =P, and especially since they won't be able to run a libby with vulkan. Getting rid of the land raider so you can weaken resolve the bikers off the table will be priority number uno.

I also think a well made + played Tau list could give any of these 3 a run for their money but its very easy to make a mistake with them and lose the game-I think that will put them out of the running 9 times out of 10.

Interesting list. I see you've totally dumped valkryies/vendettas and moved to the devildog camp .

Shooty daemons just don't scale well. You get everything you need at 1750 after that you just end up with screamers or more horrors, or bigger units of flamers.

What were you using to get rid of the loota's?

I've noticed that your army is ineffective outside of 36", you don't think that will be a crutch in spearhead missions? Or are you counting on just running flatout with all of the devildogs the first turn?

I think the medusa is amazing for it's points. The problem is that I'm not buying all the forge world ones, ahh well, we need to find someone to come up with an easy conversion guide.

Webway portal wych cult could give you an issue, them dropping portals means they are going to be in your lines on turn 2 with haywire all over the place, as well as 2 blasters a squad.

I agree with you on a Vulkan list being very tough in this environment. Eldar would have to run seer council heavy. 1 on jetbikes and eldrad with another squad in a serpent I think would be best.

Warmaster wrote:Interesting list. I see you've totally dumped valkryies/vendettas and moved to the devildog camp .

Shooty daemons just don't scale well. You get everything you need at 1750 after that you just end up with screamers or more horrors, or bigger units of flamers.

What were you using to get rid of the loota's?

I've noticed that your army is ineffective outside of 36", you don't think that will be a crutch in spearhead missions? Or are you counting on just running flatout with all of the devildogs the first turn?

I think the medusa is amazing for it's points. The problem is that I'm not buying all the forge world ones, ahh well, we need to find someone to come up with an easy conversion guide.

Webway portal wych cult could give you an issue, them dropping portals means they are going to be in your lines on turn 2 with haywire all over the place, as well as 2 blasters a squad.

I agree with you on a Vulkan list being very tough in this environment. Eldar would have to run seer council heavy. 1 on jetbikes and eldrad with another squad in a serpent I think would be best.

Remember that he is using the special shells for the medusa, so they has a range of 48" plus he has the manticore.

What about Mech Eldar? It looks like Mass Wave serpents could be a shooty problem with their Wave fields...

I'm predicting a win for the Double Council Mechdar. With most list being mechanized, DCMD can take TLBL Serpents with Dragons, seer councils chew through anything, then have TLBL WS on DA, 2x 3 Jetbikes for fast objective grab and maybe a fireprism or two.... Their firepower is insain and their speed is even better.

AdeptSister wrote:Remember that he is using the special shells for the medusa, so they has a range of 48" plus he has the manticore.

What about Mech Eldar? It looks like Mass Wave serpents could be a shooty problem with their Wave fields...

Dammit, I don't know why I keep getting the two ranges mixed up. I like the medusa but I know I won't be playing with any until they come out with the kit, unless someone posts a really cool article on how to convert one from a basilisk.

I think you need to add Necrons to the list of things that scale awesomely.

It seems that everyone overlooks the humble Hydra to counter Mech Eldar. Stripping their cover save and firing at least 4 TL Autocannon shots (if you only took 1). Having a squad of 3 in heavy support just spells all sorts of death for skimmers/jetbikes/bikers/light transports.

That and they shred infantry just as well, needing only 2+ to wound on most targets.

Jetbikes/jetcouncils have normal 3+ saves so they don't care much about the Hydras firing at them (fortuned council re-rolling 3+ saves... forget it).

A unit of 3 Hydras is solid for taking the skimmers out of the ari though. At 225pts for 3, it is a good buy as well.

Pretty spot on discussion guys.

Ard Boyz is definitely not 1750 40k with more points. It creates entirely new lists, like bike vulkan, seer council WITH wave serpent eldar, and other things that its too early to think of.

I did ditch vendettas, I don't run them in my 1750 either. Movement blocking is too important to long range IG, and with 4 medusas with BB and a manticore, I'm not having a problem with vehicles. Mass light vehicles that can outshoot me will beat me, but what we are talking about is a guy who brings my same list with vendies instead of DD, since my devildogs can't block him. If he takes demolishers I have the advantage, I can pop them before they get to fire.

The only reason I think my list has a game against bike vulkan is because I have 2 PBS. Now I'm hearing that people are going to screen bikes with land raiders, which actually I dont even need to adjust for since I pack so much LR hate. I can pop LR or cause a casualty to a bike with a shrewd blast placement, or if need be, go over the top of the screen and hope for some "hits" with indirect. If I can get just a tiny bit of LOS, those bikes are history. It doesn't solve my terminator problem and the mass TL MM problem, but at least the tools to win are included in my list. I think I could make those games real tight and fun to watch.

I respectfully have to dismiss demons as a threat after warmaster infomred me about the bolt of tzeentch scaling. Don't get me wrong I love demons, and have much respect for a 1750 shooty demon list. But if you are going to use bloodcrushers and fateweaver as your win condition, then fateweaver is faced off against 7 multi-lasers and 2 PBS, without shooting any support or attack at him. And then crushers are getting walled off by devildogs. Fiends get more respect, but are also easier for me to handle. Not saying i won't lose models, but I don't think choppy demons can keep up.

Forgot tau and forgot dark eldar. Tau, well... thats probably pretty bad news. If I lined up against piranhas, pathfinders, broadisides and deathrains, and didn't get to go first. I don't think I'll have medusas and manticores. If they are taken out, then its peace out. If I go first and my support is accurate, and his cover saves aren't amazing, then i could subtract some broadsides beforre he can shoot them. I'd prefer not to face them down.

Didn't mention dark eldar. In all my years playing 40k and with a regular opponent that owns them, I still don't understand them. I know they can pack a sick amount of dark lances, but I also know that they have only 3-5 playable units in their dex, and those units are inexpensive generally, so i can't imagine 2500 points is helpful to them.

How does eldar matchup with vulkan? I suppose they wash against thammers, but they can't really kill bikes, unless they whip out their fire dragons... which they need to pop the LRs. I think I'd just love to read a batrep about them.

Anyone planning to get some games in?

edit: forgot to address two things. The hydra mention is actually pretty clever. If I felt like I was going to see quite a bit of eldar, then it would be an excellent substitution for the manticore slot. I think more people own space marines and I think vulkan has a better shot at winning, so I'm not doing that theoretically. But since, I won't be attending the first round its all acedemic.

Also, for the tau matchup, finding 30 points for an astropath is possibly a worthwhile investment. I have enough tau models to try it out, but if not going first against tau = auto-loss, then squeezing an astropath in the list could make some sense.

I just got the bikes i needed to start testing last night so I'll be testing the bike vulkan list as much as I can before the first round. I have a game lined up against a double lash list next monday and possibly another marine army on sunday. We have a guy who plays eldar who I'm going to see if I can get a game in against.

Lots more poeple do have Marines I think you're right. the Hydras won't be of much use against biker Vulkan either for the most part. In an Eldar heavy environment they would be supreme though.

Fatecrusher will be strange when it is scaled up to 2500pts. I'd expect it to be packing 3 Grinders w/Tongue, a Bloodthirster and a pile of Horros with Bolt to help deal with mechanized stuff. I suspect you can deal with the army decently enough, but move blocking with the Devildogs won't last long against a billion str5 attacks onto their rear armor if they survive all the Bolts and Tongues.

As for a list like yours with Vendettas instead of the DDs... I would expect it. I'm seeing Vendettas EVERYWHERE in new IG lists, so I would probably expect to see them in a whole lot of IG armies you might see at 'Ard Boyz. You probably won't see the aircav/alphastrike type lists running around since they don't really hit hard enough at 2500pts, but you should expect to see lists with 3-5 Valk/Dettas in them to support their mechanized core. I know if I was playing in 'Ard Boyz this year I'd be packing 3 Vendettas for sure.

Khornatedemon wrote:I just got the bikes i needed to start testing last night so I'll be testing the bike vulkan list as much as I can before the first round. I have a game lined up against a double lash list next monday and possibly another marine army on sunday. We have a guy who plays eldar who I'm going to see if I can get a game in against.

Sweet! Please post batreps!

Caffran9 wrote:I suspect you can deal with the army decently enough, but move blocking with the Devildogs won't last long against a billion str5 attacks onto their rear armor if they survive all the Bolts and Tongues.

They'll need at least a billion strength 5 attacks to get through a devildog wall. 6s to hit, 6s to pen, 4s to kill. About a 1% chance to kill me per swing. Bolts and tongues however, can open up that lane. Demon players will have to be smart enough to shoot my fast attack first, and lucky enough to get their shooty wave.

Caffran9 wrote:As for a list like yours with Vendettas instead of the DDs... I would expect it. I'm seeing Vendettas EVERYWHERE in new IG lists, so I would probably expect to see them in a whole lot of IG armies you might see at 'Ard Boyz. You probably won't see the aircav/alphastrike type lists running around since they don't really hit hard enough at 2500pts, but you should expect to see lists with 3-5 Valk/Dettas in them to support their mechanized core. I know if I was playing in 'Ard Boyz this year I'd be packing 3 Vendettas for sure.

They are quite popular. Yet another reason for me to consider -1 manticore, +2 hydra.

I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this. But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

3 Monoliths would ruin your day. The crons can hang back in reserve/at range, and they are great at shooting vehicles to prevent return fire.

40kenthusiast wrote:3 Monoliths would ruin your day. The crons can hang back in reserve/at range, and they are great at shooting vehicles to prevent return fire.

the manticore can hurt liths'. May not get extra dice but its still str10. Also once the crons start showing their face they are gonna drop to medusa's, PBS, and melta cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Krootman wrote:I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this. But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

Krootman wrote:I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this.

marines at ard boys are in a pinch for HQ. They need a bike captain and Vulkan, or they'll lose troop mobile multi-meltas. You could take an elite choice inq and bump up his leadership with hierophants, but thats 10 less terminators.

I think if you asked me what was a more important HQ for ard boys space marines I would say the bike captain. I bet I'll get disagreed with a lot, but vulkan is one of those guys that everyone has a hard time finding a unit to join with, and no one wants to get him into combat. So really you are paying his points for the thunderhammer master-crafting and the MM twin-linking. Sm MM only miss 33% of the time. So you need 3 shots mathematically speaking to trigger the TL. 3 shots basically equals 4 shots with him. If 65 points = a MM speeder, and he costs 200ish (I can't believe I can't remember what he costs) then you'll need at least 9 MM (or close range meltas if you get that close) to buy him back. Since having more units has better survivability and better damage potential on above average rolls, you can make a case for him to be not included. Not saying he is somehow not awesome. Just saying that I think the bike captain is the first purchase, then vulkan gets purchased when all of your quality MM slots are filled.

Krootman wrote:But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

Flattery will get you everywhere! haha. the list just evolved from people ignoring my executioners and demolishes. So i tried swapping them out for something with more oomph... turns out they still ignore the medusas. Primarily because they have devildogs in their face.

Khornatedemon wrote:
i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

Which is why the 72pt DaemonHunter Inquisitor was born. You buy the normal DH Inquisitor +2 mystics a psychic hood and 2 hierophants. Hierophants give +1 to your leadership value.

Your list actually inspired me to come up with a vulkin version. Lacks long range at but makes up for it because every gun is tl


HQ
Vulkin 190

Inq lord 168
-tarrot
-hood
-2 warriors
--2 flamers
rhino 58
--ea, smokes

Elite
Dred 150
-mm,heavy flamer
-pod

10 sternguard 335
-6 combis (2 flamers, 4 meltas)
-2 heavy flamers

10 sternguard 335
-6 combis (2 flamers, 4 meltas)
-2 heavy flamers

Troops (marines can take both witchhunters and daemon hunters allies)

5 inq storm troopers 123
-2 meltas
Rhino
-smoke

5 inq storm troopers 123
-2 meltas
Rhino
-smoke

5 inq storm troopers 123
-2 meltas
Rhino
-smoke

5 inq storm troopers 113
-2 flamers
Rhino
-smoke

10 tac marines 230
-flamer
-mm
-sgt with combi flamer, p weapon
Rhino

10 tac marines 230
-flamer
-mm
-sgt with combi flamer, p weapon
rhino

Fast attack
3 speeders 180
-heavy flamer/heavy flamer

2 atk bikes 100
-mm

2 atk bikes 100
-mm


7 mms
9 heavy flamers
12 flamers
14 meltas
7 rhinos
3 drop pods

Khornatedemon wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:3 Monoliths would ruin your day. The crons can hang back in reserve/at range, and they are great at shooting vehicles to prevent return fire.

the manticore can hurt liths'. May not get extra dice but its still str10. Also once the crons start showing their face they are gonna drop to medusa's, PBS, and melta cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Krootman wrote:I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this. But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

You can allways give them the + leadership retinue in addition to some mystics, throw them in a Rhino so they can advance with the Raiders and you have a nice little DS/Psycic protection unit. Still not as good as a lord though. Honestly I would not worry so much about PBS and Lash. If you go second you can take advantage of your mobility to steer clear of them on turn 1, and after than its not really relevant. So they weaken resolve you and you fall back, So What. You just ATSKNNF at the begining of your next turn and hit em again.

As for Lash, well if he lashes a bike squad into assault range on his turn 1 so what, you have plenty and your alpha strike on Turn 2 will hit hard enough that One less Bike unit won't really matter.

I guess well see once some real testing with the army is done, but I dont see PBS as a problem at all. Thats the advantage of going MSU bikers as opposed to Death Star Bikers.

Shep wrote:

Krootman wrote:I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this.

marines at ard boys are in a pinch for HQ. They need a bike captain and Vulkan, or they'll lose troop mobile multi-meltas. You could take an elite choice inq and bump up his leadership with hierophants, but thats 10 less terminators.

I think if you asked me what was a more important HQ for ard boys space marines I would say the bike captain. I bet I'll get disagreed with a lot, but vulkan is one of those guys that everyone has a hard time finding a unit to join with, and no one wants to get him into combat. So really you are paying his points for the thunderhammer master-crafting and the MM twin-linking. Sm MM only miss 33% of the time. So you need 3 shots mathematically speaking to trigger the TL. 3 shots basically equals 4 shots with him. If 65 points = a MM speeder, and he costs 200ish (I can't believe I can't remember what he costs) then you'll need at least 9 MM (or close range meltas if you get that close) to buy him back. Since having more units has better survivability and better damage potential on above average rolls, you can make a case for him to be not included. Not saying he is somehow not awesome. Just saying that I think the bike captain is the first purchase, then vulkan gets purchased when all of your quality MM slots are filled.

Krootman wrote:But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

Flattery will get you everywhere! haha. the list just evolved from people ignoring my executioners and demolishes. So i tried swapping them out for something with more oomph... turns out they still ignore the medusas. Primarily because they have devildogs in their face.

i agree. i think the bike squads are going to be clutch. Now I just hope to get enough practice so i use them right. With me vulkan comes down to the fact my dice fail me on a regualar basis. Even twin linked I miss a slowed amount of melta shots. I generally stick him with a terminator squad and only even get him out of the LR if its favorable for him or I want the flamer shot. He's good at taking out small squads. With his heavy flamer and cc prowess he will destroy non power armor squads by himself and can take out combat squads pretty easily on his own.

If i find I just have enough meltas to not worry about it vulkan will be dropped for a libby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Warmaster wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

Which is why the 72pt DaemonHunter Inquisitor was born. You buy the normal DH Inquisitor +2 mystics a psychic hood and 2 hierophants. Hierophants give +1 to your leadership value.

hmm i guess i could do 60 points for inq with hood and 2 heirophants. i totally forgot about them. I dont see the mystics being usefull for me as I really have nothing to shoot at them with thats worthwhile. I guess if a drop pod lands close to my redeemers i can try a flamestorm shot but otherwise its only going to be bolters or a single assault cannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bigtmac68 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:3 Monoliths would ruin your day. The crons can hang back in reserve/at range, and they are great at shooting vehicles to prevent return fire.

the manticore can hurt liths'. May not get extra dice but its still str10. Also once the crons start showing their face they are gonna drop to medusa's, PBS, and melta cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Krootman wrote:I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this. But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

You can allways give them the + leadership retinue in addition to some mystics, throw them in a Rhino so they can advance with the Raiders and you have a nice little DS/Psycic protection unit. Still not as good as a lord though. Honestly I would not worry so much about PBS and Lash. If you go second you can take advantage of your mobility to steer clear of them on turn 1, and after than its not really relevant. So they weaken resolve you and you fall back, So What. You just ATSKNNF at the begining of your next turn and hit em again.

As for Lash, well if he lashes a bike squad into assault range on his turn 1 so what, you have plenty and your alpha strike on Turn 2 will hit hard enough that One less Bike unit won't really matter.

I guess well see once some real testing with the army is done, but I dont see PBS as a problem at all. Thats the advantage of going MSU bikers as opposed to Death Star Bikers.

well my first test game is against lash, so we will see.

Warmaster wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

Which is why the 72pt DaemonHunter Inquisitor was born. You buy the normal DH Inquisitor +2 mystics a psychic hood and 2 hierophants. Hierophants give +1 to your leadership value.

hmm i guess i could do 60 points for inq with hood and 2 heirophants. i totally forgot about them. I dont see the mystics being usefull for me as I really have nothing to shoot at them with thats worthwhile. I guess if a drop pod lands close to my redeemers i can try a flamestorm shot but otherwise its only going to be bolters or a single assault cannon.

Shep wrote:

Krootman wrote:I was thinking about taking a vulkin spam list to ard boys and taking an inq lord with a hood so I dont have to worry about pbs, lash, or eldar. 70ish points for a inq lord with a hood+ 2 mystics is not too bad. Would really help me counter alist like this.

marines at ard boys are in a pinch for HQ. They need a bike captain and Vulkan, or they'll lose troop mobile multi-meltas. You could take an elite choice inq and bump up his leadership with hierophants, but thats 10 less terminators.

I think if you asked me what was a more important HQ for ard boys space marines I would say the bike captain. I bet I'll get disagreed with a lot, but vulkan is one of those guys that everyone has a hard time finding a unit to join with, and no one wants to get him into combat. So really you are paying his points for the thunderhammer master-crafting and the MM twin-linking. Sm MM only miss 33% of the time. So you need 3 shots mathematically speaking to trigger the TL. 3 shots basically equals 4 shots with him. If 65 points = a MM speeder, and he costs 200ish (I can't believe I can't remember what he costs) then you'll need at least 9 MM (or close range meltas if you get that close) to buy him back. Since having more units has better survivability and better damage potential on above average rolls, you can make a case for him to be not included. Not saying he is somehow not awesome. Just saying that I think the bike captain is the first purchase, then vulkan gets purchased when all of your quality MM slots are filled.

Krootman wrote:But I must say its one of the best guard lists I have ever seen

Flattery will get you everywhere! haha. the list just evolved from people ignoring my executioners and demolishes. So i tried swapping them out for something with more oomph... turns out they still ignore the medusas. Primarily because they have devildogs in their face.

I agree with the sm captian, but im going a different direction with my sm list I think. Something else to consider with your guard list would be to replace 3 devil dogs with 3 vendettas, can rush them foward if you need to do some blocking same as the devil dogs but they can also provide you with some extra long range tank support. I know lascannons are not the best at poping tanks but they are better then nothing. Another problem with your list is it costs around 800 bucks :( tear

This may be a local metagame but a the current tau list in vogue is the 15 piranha swarm. With the massive points limit for ard boyz a normal tau army can be fielded after you spend the 1200 or so points for the piranhas. With only one opening on the chimeras a piranha can drop both gun drones and make itself wide enough to prevent escape and then pop the chimera with the melta and theres 15 of them. granted the vechical squadron rules hurt them, but they are usually dead once they are hit anyway. I've seen this list combined with a ninja tau other half wipe the table of mech sm by turn three. 15 piranhas could reasonably pop 3-4 chirmeras a turn and any railguns in the other half would decimate other tank units. Not to insult your list. A good result with the meltas and vendettas could leave a lot of dead piranhas. I would be a fun attrition based battle.

razorlead wrote:This may be a local metagame but a the current tau list in vogue is the 15 piranha swarm. With the massive points limit for ard boyz a normal tau army can be fielded after you spend the 1200 or so points for the piranhas. With only one opening on the chimeras a piranha can drop both gun drones and make itself wide enough to prevent escape and then pop the chimera with the melta and theres 15 of them. granted the vechical squadron rules hurt them, but they are usually dead once they are hit anyway. I've seen this list combined with a ninja tau other half wipe the table of mech sm by turn three. 15 piranhas could reasonably pop 3-4 chirmeras a turn and any railguns in the other half would decimate other tank units. Not to insult your list. A good result with the meltas and vendettas could leave a lot of dead piranhas. I would be a fun attrition based battle.

Ive played vs 10 piranhas but not 15. The piranhas combined for one chimera and one guard squad total, and all died in two turns. It was kind of a slaughter. Im much more concerned with broadsides and death rain suits than piranhas, the multi lasers alone blasted 7 of them in one turn.

Warmaster wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:
i really want a hood in my biker vulkan list but i dont know how to get it as i need both vulkan and the bike capt. The elite inquisitor only has LD8 which sucks.

Which is why the 72pt DaemonHunter Inquisitor was born. You buy the normal DH Inquisitor +2 mystics a psychic hood and 2 hierophants. Hierophants give +1 to your leadership value.

False, multiple Heirophants won't increase LD by more than 1 point total. Max LD from the Elites IQ is 9.

having a LD 9 inqis reduces your chance to beat almost all psychic powers from a flat 50% to a 33% chance. Not worth it. Take the HQ.

razorlead wrote:This may be a local metagame but a the current tau list in vogue is the 15 piranha swarm. With the massive points limit for ard boyz a normal tau army can be fielded after you spend the 1200 or so points for the piranhas. With only one opening on the chimeras a piranha can drop both gun drones and make itself wide enough to prevent escape and then pop the chimera with the melta and theres 15 of them. granted the vechical squadron rules hurt them, but they are usually dead once they are hit anyway. I've seen this list combined with a ninja tau other half wipe the table of mech sm by turn three. 15 piranhas could reasonably pop 3-4 chirmeras a turn and any railguns in the other half would decimate other tank units. Not to insult your list. A good result with the meltas and vendettas could leave a lot of dead piranhas. I would be a fun attrition based battle.

Piranhas are excellent. They'd do a great job blocking off melta based weaponry from getting to other targets. But they excel when faced up against armies with mostly short range weaponry. I fell in love with devil dogs because of my usage of piranhas to wall off stuff when playing with my tau army. The IG armies that are taking the 48" range heavy support can still reach the stuff that you are screening with piranhas.

Blocking exits only works 33% of the time when using ap1 weaponry. You'll 'trap' units when you get wrecked results. But thanks to your +1 to damage rolls, you are twice as likely to get an 'explodes' result, which allows the owner of the vehicle to place the transported unit in the former footprint of the vehicle.

And, unfortunately, 15 piranhas can only kill a maximum of 3 chimeras a turn. Vehicle based target locks do not work like infantry based target locks. The squadron can't split fire :(

You don't need 15 piranhas, especially because you'll really want markerlights to strip cover saves from all of the checkerboarded vehicle squadrons. Tau have serious high yield answers to vehicles, and my list is all vehicle Broadsides, deathrains, and piranha mounted fusion blasters just love to see a bunch of vehicles. Snot green bikes and snot green assault terminators? Not so much

So shep, you think that mech vets have nothing to worry about from any ork list? Or is this just at the 2500 point level?

With the lack of ork melta and the prevalence of mech, I'm starting to feel a little hopeless about greenskins

Shep wrote: Snot green bikes and snot green assault terminators? Not so much

quoted for win!

So is the new name for Vulkan lists "Snot Green" ? (Slap me, I add no value)

dumbuket wrote:So shep, you think that mech vets have nothing to worry about from any ork list? Or is this just at the 2500 point level?

With the lack of ork melta and the prevalence of mech, I'm starting to feel a little hopeless about greenskins

This matchup at 1750 is still not favorable for orks but it's much better. It goes from a 30/70 to maybe a 45/55. An important caveat to this is we play that mob rule can overcome PBS attacks. Without that ruling it turns into a tabling again since either my all of my lootas or all of my boys are going to be running off the table on turn 1.

Orks don't have meltas but they do have some decent tools to deal with vehicles: Lootas are mandatory and do well against armor 12 and 11. Outflanking deffkoptas with rockitts and buzzsaws are an excellent choice against guard and are a nice foil against Lehman Russ. Powerklaws are crucial, boarding planks are recommended and even wrecking balls can be helpful.

So basically I stuff all of the above into any ork list I play. This gives me a chance against guard in 1750. In 2500? It's probably not going to matter as shep illustrated. There are just too many vehicles to kill and too many ways for him to stomp on battlewagons in a single round of shooting. I've considered testing a couple other 2500 lists just to confirm this. Nob Biker spam may be serviceable. Shep doesn't think so but I think a second unit might actually be helpful since it's almost impossible to deal with both units and at least one will crash into his lines. Another method is to simply run 30 man large foot ork units with zero vehicles and make his meltas expensive overkill. I haven't decided if that's effective or just a gimmick at this point. More testing is needed.

Shep - your list looks freakin' brutal!!

Now that the missions are you do you think you will be changing your list up a bit?

Krootman wrote:Now that the missions are you do you think you will be changing your list up a bit?

I'll be taking a look tonight. But its doubtful. My list did change a bit because its actually 2515. Essentially, I dropped a PBS unit and the manticore and added 2x medusas without BBs, and smoke on my 6 devildgos. Longer range, less infantry models, more cover saves.

dumbuket wrote:So shep, you think that mech vets have nothing to worry about from any ork list? Or is this just at the 2500 point level?

I agree with KevinNash. 2500 point level is pretty depressing for orks when lined up against mechvets. 1750, just make a few cover saves, and get in there really close. Hope you get 6's with those boarding plank attacks, and hope your opponent gives you charges (or you get first turn) with the deffkoptas.

dumbuket wrote:With the lack of ork melta and the prevalence of mech, I'm starting to feel a little hopeless about greenskins

Keep your orks around. But maybe start building out something else. I am going to start a new thread about this. If someone over at GW game design was reading dakka, and happened across this discussion, they should know that the ruling on the deffrolla is still ambiguous. The jaws of fail are closing in on orks and their lack of meltagun. If someone in game design stepped up and said, "yes it was our intent to let deffrollas work on vehicles", then BAM! orks get their meltaguns, and they instantly can stand toe to toe in mech faceoffs. If the only high yield tank kill they have outside of lootas happens in the assault phase, they are likely boned in the highest levels of competition. If a wagon full of shoota boys can ram-pop a mechvet chim, and then shoot the piss out of the unit BEFORE it gets to melta the wagon, then the competition gets close and interesting. Until then, 'pro' moves like blocking, and long range tank shredders like medusas ,vanquishers, manticores, railguns, and 'bike mobile' multi-meltas, just shut down battlewagons. Foot orks get too bunched up after needing 6s to hit vehicles and then just get souffled, and nob bikers don't have the ability to sustain multiple spam wounds from those exact same weapons used to wreck wagons.

Please give us the ram trigger for the deffrolla.

I'm testing a vulkan list tonight & then later this week. It is a nearly all Mech list that has 10 multimeltas, 8 of which that can fire after moving 12 inches. Besides, the meltas are only there so the 13 thunderhammer/stormshield terminators can do their job. Having nighfight the first two missions should help get everything into range. Sprinkle in a vindicator, thunderfire, libby with null zone, and some flamers and hopefully whatever is left after the melta barrage can get killed.

Hey Shep; nice battle report.

I think you're dismissing Orks a bit too easily. I've had a chance to play my Orks against mechanized IG in a practice scenario a couple of times now, and they *ARE* brutal...but they aren't a guaranteed win. My games thus far have been frustrating, long, not gotten past turn 4, but I've had at *least* a minor victory in each...when I'm used to tabling my opponents. I personally detest everything in your ork opponents' army lists. I've said this dozens and dozens of times in the army list forums, and I'll say it again here:

Orks are better at anything than any other army, but only one thing at a time. If you're going to make a dakka Ork army, you go 100% dakka. If you're going to make an assault army, you go 100% assault. 100% mechanized. 100% foot-slogging. 100% speed-freak. 100% kan-wall. Any of those combinations are incredibly powerful. Orks start losing strength when people start trying to mix and match options to make their ork army act like green space marines. Strength in numbers is key to any Ork game, and your opponents split their armies in half and delivered a portion of it to you at a time.

Now before I'm accused of putting my foot in my mouth; I don't know you or your opponents, but I'd wager a guess that neither of those Ork players would make it to the top tables in 'Ard Boyz. I don't know who they are, or what tactics they use, or what generalship skills they have, but their army lists on face don't play to the strengths in the Ork codex....which is taking a "theme" and rocking with it.

I'm not saying that you're going to get trounced by Orks either...at best its going to be a brutal, hateful, grueling fight that leaves both players unsatisfied at the end. I just don't think that Orks are quite so easy to dismiss in the hands of a capable player.

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey Shep; nice battle report.

I think you're dismissing Orks a bit too easily. I've had a chance to play my Orks against mechanized IG in a practice scenario a couple of times now, and they *ARE* brutal...but they aren't a guaranteed win. My games thus far have been frustrating, long, not gotten past turn 4, but I've had at *least* a minor victory in each...when I'm used to tabling my opponents. I personally detest everything in your ork opponents' army lists. I've said this dozens and dozens of times in the army list forums, and I'll say it again here:

Orks are better at anything than any other army, but only one thing at a time. If you're going to make a dakka Ork army, you go 100% dakka. If you're going to make an assault army, you go 100% assault. 100% mechanized. 100% foot-slogging. 100% speed-freak. 100% kan-wall. Any of those combinations are incredibly powerful. Orks start losing strength when people start trying to mix and match options to make their ork army act like green space marines. Strength in numbers is key to any Ork game, and your opponents split their armies in half and delivered a portion of it to you at a time.

Now before I'm accused of putting my foot in my mouth; I don't know you or your opponents, but I'd wager a guess that neither of those Ork players would make it to the top tables in 'Ard Boyz. I don't know who they are, or what tactics they use, or what generalship skills they have, but their army lists on face don't play to the strengths in the Ork codex....which is taking a "theme" and rocking with it.

I'm not saying that you're going to get trounced by Orks either...at best its going to be a brutal, hateful, grueling fight that leaves both players unsatisfied at the end. I just don't think that Orks are quite so easy to dismiss in the hands of a capable player.

All i said was "I don't have to worry about orks" what i mean by that is that I don't have to add a squadron of griffons, or an eradicator, or a yarrick/ogryn unit. After testing against orks, at the ard boys level, I can say that I have a very good chance of beating them with my current tuned list. I will never give myself more than an 80/20 shot against ANY codex, in any tourney format. First off, this game doesn't work like that. Too much randomness and generalship counts for too much. Secondly, if I ever did have an 80/20 matchup, I'd purposely weaken myself in that matchup to try and get better odds against a different army. You can never predict what you are going to face.

Also keep in mind that my analysis of orks is based soley against my very specific IG list (it isn't a generic mech IG list. It is my list that has some very specific choices in it) and its only at the 2500 point level.

My favorite ork armies, the ones I feel are the most well rounded and powerful, are foot based, shooty, and straightforward, just like what you are suggesting.

At 1750. I go kan wall usually, although i often run the 45 loota 9 kannon list as well. But there are two problems. If I can fit 45 lootas 9 kannons and 3 single deffkoptas into 1750, then what am i going to add to go to 2500? more boys? It is a problem with scaling.

Also, my specific list punishes from a lot longer range. Orks love to face off against valkyrie or vendetta borne veterans. Suicide alpha never worked and will never work on foot orks. Lootas drop valkyries and 30 man boy units giggle when shot by meltaguns. My list makes lootas shoot into armor 12 WITH cover, and I can unload blast marker to 48" range, all while 6 devildogs have gotten in your face and are threatening to strip massive amounts of models off of the table.

My list has a weakeness against Tau. (and by weakness i mean nearly auto-loss) Orks ravage tau... I completely auto-lose to the ultimate dark horse for ard boys mech/bike council eldar. Eldar is also primed to beat up on salamanders, which don't have any problem beating orks.

Its kinda circular. If enough people played eldar and tau, then orks would be ascendant, but people want to beat up on nobs and orks, so they play space marines or IG, which is fine for the eldar players, unless they hit the ork player.

In other words, please don't take my post to be cocky, or a 'write-off' for orks doing well at ard boys. All I'm saying is that my particular list using the 2500 point format, against orks (I know i didn't have a foot ork matchup, but they just don't work at 2500 points) has a favorable enough matchup that I won't be testing against them or making any more list tweaks to counter them.

as an aside, when you said that you "detest" everything my opponents took, that means you detest lootas, deffkoptas, battlewagons, kustom force field meks, ghazgull, warbosses on bike and nob bikers. And shoota boys too.

I'm assuming heavy hyperbole on your end. And if not, please realize that that is ALMOST every good unit in the codex.

Those lists didn't suck. They just couldn't be built in the same manner that 1750 or 1500 lists can be, because of force org restrictions.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Now before I'm accused of putting my foot in my mouth; I don't know you or your opponents, but I'd wager a guess that neither of those Ork players would make it to the top tables in 'Ard Boyz. I don't know who they are, or what tactics they use, or what generalship skills they have, but their army lists on face don't play to the strengths in the Ork codex....which is taking a "theme" and rocking with it.

I'm not saying that you're going to get trounced by Orks either...at best its going to be a brutal, hateful, grueling fight that leaves both players unsatisfied at the end. I just don't think that Orks are quite so easy to dismiss in the hands of a capable player.

I was Shep's opponent in the first game. I ran 45 lootas, 4 battlewagons with KFF Mek Cover saves and Shoota boy spam in the vehicles. I used deffkoptas with rockitts to outflank. My lootas were essentially taking out 1 vehicle each for every unit round of shooting and it really didn't matter because he had so many vehicles to take out.

Note we're also ruling that mob rule overrides PBS. If they don't allow that in 'Ard boyz your lootas will be running off the table on the first turn. We rule that deffrollas can't take out vehicles, just like the INAT FAQ.

I've tried numerous strategies against guard and my conclusions are that foot orks are difficult to keep alive in the face of template spam and vehicles equally difficult because of melta spam. My battlewagons all had 4+ cover saves and they all got crushed regardless. I was forced to assault vehicles to progress further towards his lines and my lack of consolidation ruined me. I simply didn't have enough lootas to keep up with his shooting and simply not enough boyz to keep up with his templates.

I suppose you could grossly up the boy tally on the ground but then you're playing into the templates and pies he's going to reign down on your face. That may be a superior list but it still doesn't make the matchup a winner.

The guy in game 2 took a full sized unit of nob bikers with ablative wounds. They were effectively wiped off the table after a single round of shooting. Instant death shooting that bypasses FNP is obviously a problem. I would suggest running two of them but after the second unit obliterates 4 of shep's 18 vehicles they are meeting a simliar fate. That's 2000 points worth of orks dead in 2-3 turns. No thanks.

I like Orks and think they have some nice matchups but right now, especially at the 2500 point clip, they lose horribly to mechanized guard. I think they will probably have equal difficulty against land raider spam.

I suppose you could take your orks to 'ard boyz and pray you skip the guard matchup but if you meet another guard player at the top tables I really don't like your chances and frankly I think you're ignorant if you do.

Let me preface my further commentary on a few important notes:

1. I've been playing 40k for a year.
2. I've never been to a national-level tournament, GT, etc. Not because I don't want to, simply because I don't know about them, where they are, how to get into them, etc.

I'll skip the points about how awesome I've done despite those handicaps. =p It may well be a case of big fish in a small pond, and I've been looking forward to 'Ard Boyz for a long time to test my mettle on a bigger scale and find out if I'm as good as I like to think that I am.
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Now...with that said:

I wasn't saying that all those units are terrible; what I meant is that I thought putting them all together in that configuration is terrible. I firmly believe that Orks should always do everything 100%. You go 100% shooting, or 100% assault, or 100% foot-slogging, or 100% mechanized, or 100% speed-freak, or 100%....etc. Pick a theme and run with it.

As much as I disagree with rulings like "Deff-Rollas don't work on vehicles" I've decided to accept them for now and taken them out of my lists.

A final note...its not really fair for me to criticize without offering specific constructive feedback and alternatives for people to toss around. I've got a ridiculous win-loss record, and I include some very good mechanized IG players on that list...but I'm afraid of posting my army list anywhere; I don't want it to become a cookie-cutter "build" that people everywhere use and work against. I *will* say that my particular army combinations are a bit unorthodox, combine things that people think have no business being together...but at the end of the day, I do think it comes down to generalship.
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Having not been to 'Ard Boyz or GTs or anything, I *AM* taking orks to 'Ard Boyz. I'm not praying to skip the guard matchups, but I *will* appreciate every game I have that isn't against one of them. Win or lose...a game against mechanized IG is brutal.

Dashofpepper wrote:Let me preface my further commentary on a few important notes:

1. I've been playing 40k for a year.
2. I've never been to a national-level tournament, GT, etc. Not because I don't want to, simply because I don't know about them, where they are, how to get into them, etc.

I'll skip the points about how awesome I've done despite those handicaps. =p It may well be a case of big fish in a small pond, and I've been looking forward to 'Ard Boyz for a long time to test my mettle on a bigger scale and find out if I'm as good as I like to think that I am.
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Now...with that said:

I wasn't saying that all those units are terrible; what I meant is that I thought putting them all together in that configuration is terrible. I firmly believe that Orks should always do everything 100%. You go 100% shooting, or 100% assault, or 100% foot-slogging, or 100% mechanized, or 100% speed-freak, or 100%....etc. Pick a theme and run with it.

You're wrong though. I've attempted both full foot orks with kan wall backed by lootas and full speed freakz (trukks, wagons and buggies) and both variants have a hard time against guard. The foot list gets punished by meltas and templates and the full speed freak list cannot take out the waves of vehicles.

As much as I disagree with rulings like "Deff-Rollas don't work on vehicles" I've decided to accept them for now and taken them out of my lists.

I don't agree with it either but if that's what the tournament organizers are ruling that's how I play whether I'm at a tournament or not.

A final note...its not really fair for me to criticize without offering specific constructive feedback and alternatives for people to toss around. I've got a ridiculous win-loss record, and I include some very good mechanized IG players on that list...but I'm afraid of posting my army list anywhere; I don't want it to become a cookie-cutter "build" that people everywhere use and work against. I *will* say that my particular army combinations are a bit unorthodox, combine things that people think have no business being together...

Have your friends run Shep's list against you and see how it goes. If he plays like a slow then correct him and make sure he plays like a capable opponent. Beating up on bad players doesn't teach you anything about your list, it just feeds you ego and makes you ignorant about how good or bad your list really is.

but at the end of the day, I do think it comes down to generalship.

We're not talking about generalship here though we're talking about codex strengths. Right now IG > Orks at 2500 based on our playtesting.

IG beat orks at 2500 as long as they are built correctly, run correctly, and have decent dice luck.

I'm trying to figure out a way to beat 10 lascannon heavy weapon squads, 4 valkaries with missile pods, and 3 Manticores. Not much one can do facing down 30 lascannons, 3 storm eagle rockets per turn, along with a lot of large blasts from the valkyries. Nevermind that inq with mystics and master of the fleet to screw up deep strikes & outflanks.

Shesh Guard can do scarry things.

Kevin Nash wrote:

You're wrong though. I've attempted both full foot orks with kan wall backed by lootas and full speed freakz (trukks, wagons and buggies) and both variants have a hard time against guard. The foot list gets punished by meltas and templates and the full speed freak list cannot take out the waves of vehicles.

Here's the thing though...my advocacy of foot slogging means that kans + Lootas don't belong. If I were to make a foot slogging list, I'd need to decide whether it was going to be shooting based or assault based. To me, a foot-slogging list means an ORK foot slogging list without vehicles. No killa-kans or dreadnoughts. If I'm going to make an assault-based foot-slogging list, its going to look like this for starters:

HQ1: Old Zogwort
HQ2: Weirdboy (maybe Ghazghkull)

Troop 1: 30 Boyz + Nob + Powerklaw + Bosspole
Troop 2: 30 Boyz + Nob + Powerklaw + Bosspole
Troop 3: 30 Boyz + Nob + Powerklaw + Bosspole
Troop 4: 30 Boyz + Nob + Powerklaw + Bosspole
Troop 5: 30 Boyz + Nob + Powerklaw + Bosspole
Troop 6: 29 Gretchin + 2 Runtherders

Elite 1: 14 Kommandos + 2 Burnas + Snikrot

Fast Attack 1: Either 20 Stormboyz or Deffkoptas with twin-linked rokkits
Fast Attack 2: Either 20 Stormboyz or Deffkoptas with twin-linked rokkits
Fast Attack 3: Either 20 Stormboyz or Deffkoptas with twin-linked rokkits

If I have points to spare, I'd add more kommandos.

I want my entire army to hit at once. My Stormboyz might be the first wave, and their nob/PK will open up a vehicle or two, but as much as possible...I'm going to attack in one gigantic wave. There's not much in the way of shooting here because I've made an assault army. Like I said; I don't think shooting and assaulting should be mixed and matched when you're Orks. Basically...the gretchin are providing a 4+ leadership check to the entire Ork army for the cost of 107 points. They'll be strong across the front. Templates won't get but a few of them spread out at 2" coherency in a line.

Flamers are going to be an issue as they come out of their vehicles that you destroy. However, surrounding a chimera/rhino/etc completely means that only 2-4 models are getting out; the rest can't deploy without being inside the 1" deployment zone to your own models. I'm presuming he's not firing those infantry-based flamers out of the turret; flamers aren't allowed to hit friendly models, and he'd have to flame the chimera to get it to you. Etc. etc. on strategy. But gosh; all that anti-tank is now wasted points.

If I make a shooting list, its going to be 100% pure shooting. Starting with 3 squads of Lootas of course. Orks can put more bullets downrange than a Tau or IG gunline.

I just think its a PROBLEM when you start mixing and matching themes.



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asugradinwa wrote:IG beat orks at 2500 as long as they are built correctly, run correctly, and have decent dice luck.

I'm trying to figure out a way to beat 10 lascannon heavy weapon squads, 4 valkaries with missile pods, and 3 Manticores. Not much one can do facing down 30 lascannons, 3 storm eagle rockets per turn, along with a lot of large blasts from the valkyries. Nevermind that inq with mystics and master of the fleet to screw up deep strikes & outflanks.

Shesh Guard can do scarry things.

Large blasts from valkryies? I hope you're not talking about Hellfire missiles. Those are single shot ordnance, not ordnance blast.

And I should think the list I just posted would absolutely destroy that IG list. 4+ cover saves everywhere, and when you assault a 5" tall Valkryie around its base, when it crashes....everything dies. There is no deployment zone if you have it surrounded, and nothing can get out and still be 1" away from an enemy model.

Dash, you do realize the list Shep posted had 16 Heavy Flamers, all which ignore cover saves?

Respectfully, if your plan is to rush up and hit simultaneous with those foot sloggers, I think it is safe to assume your army would meet a fair amount of Heavy Flamer shooting first. It doesn't sound very solid.

Buy a copy of the IG codex and have a good read through it. There are definite reasons why Ork players have been tweaking lists b/c of the Marine and IG codexes.

ah...heh. I feel foolish now! =p I don't play a pure foot-slogging army.

On the flip side, those flamers are inside chimeras, right? Not on the chimera itself? If so, there will be no firing flamers out of the chimera, as explained above.

Dashofpepper wrote:ah...heh. I feel foolish now! =p I don't play a pure foot-slogging army.

On the flip side, those flamers are inside chimeras, right? Not on the chimera itself? If so, there will be no firing flamers out of the chimera, as explained above.

No they are mounted on the chimera itself. For free.

The problem with a massive foot list without loota fire cover is you're going to run into a wall of chimera chassis and get stopped. You'll then assault the vehicles, blow them up, watch some boyz die in the process and then you'll be bunched up real nice since you don't get an assault consolidate.

Then you'll get templated into oblivion.

I based the foot slogging comment on what you'd run if you ran a foot slogging army.

Again, get the IG codex and take a read. Those Heavy Flamers are mounted on a Chimera.

How did you fare in last year's Ard Boyz?

But, we can find out how your army will fare soon enough. The Hobbit is hosting the first round and we got confirmation they are hosting the second round as well. See you soon.

Again... you need to get the IG Codex. 1) The Chimeras have Heavy Flamers as a choice on the hull. 2) Models firing out of fire points, can fire Flamers, though in Shep's instance he wouldn't since he is carrying Meltas.

But key is number 1, Chimera chasis and Leman Russ variants can all have heavy flamers, instead of heavy bolters, on their hull.


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Doh, sounds like a lot of people typing all at the same time.

There are heavy Flamers on all of the guard vehicles in Shep's list.

Dashofpepper wrote:Large blasts from valkryies? I hope you're not talking about Hellfire missiles. Those are single shot ordnance, not ordnance blast.

No he's talking about Multiple Rocket Pods. str 4 ap 6 large blast.

Sarigar wrote:I based the foot slogging comment on what you'd run if you ran a foot slogging army.

Again, get the IG codex and take a read. Those Heavy Flamers are mounted on a Chimera.

How did you fare in last year's Ard Boyz?

But, we can find out how your army will fare soon enough. The Hobbit is hosting the first round and we got confirmation they are hosting the second round as well. See you soon.

Last year, I used gunline Tau, and I had literally just started playing that week. I brought pure, unadulterated firepower, and would have won if I knew more at the time about how to play. =p I went 2-1 in the first round; I lost my third game (I had two massacres, and the other player had two massacres); he beat me and took first, while I ended in 4th.

This year...will be much different.

Besides the str 10 Ap4 ordnance blast manticores should cause enough problems for orks before they get to the 4 valkaries that need 6's to hit in close combat yet still pump out 2 large blasts and 3 multilaser shots each turn.

And I didn't realize that the heavy flamers were mounted on the chimeras themselves...that's a bit brutal. Maybe foot slogging wouldn't do all that well after all.

Of course, if the chimera moves, those heavy flamers don't get to fire, right?

Dashofpepper wrote:And I didn't realize that the heavy flamers were mounted on the chimeras themselves...that's a bit brutal. Maybe foot slogging wouldn't do all that well after all.

Of course, if the chimera moves, those heavy flamers don't get to fire, right?

if it move's more than 6" then no.

If they are on fast vehicles, ala Devil Dogs, Banewolfs, or Hellhounds, then they can move 12" and fire the Heavy Flamer.

Well, then I take back what I said about foot slogging boyz being able to compete against them. o.O That's a lot of death dealing.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Flamers are going to be an issue as they come out of their vehicles that you destroy. However, surrounding a chimera/rhino/etc completely means that only 2-4 models are getting out; the rest can't deploy without being inside the 1" deployment zone to your own models. I'm presuming he's not firing those infantry-based flamers out of the turret; flamers aren't allowed to hit friendly models, and he'd have to flame the chimera to get it to you.

Are you arguing that a model with a flamer cannot fire out of a transport's fire point because it would overlap the transport? I've never seen anyone play that way. What does everyone else say, is that how you rule it?

kadun wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
Flamers are going to be an issue as they come out of their vehicles that you destroy. However, surrounding a chimera/rhino/etc completely means that only 2-4 models are getting out; the rest can't deploy without being inside the 1" deployment zone to your own models. I'm presuming he's not firing those infantry-based flamers out of the turret; flamers aren't allowed to hit friendly models, and he'd have to flame the chimera to get it to you.

Are you arguing that a model with a flamer cannot fire out of a transport's fire point because it would overlap the transport? I've never seen anyone play that way. What does everyone else say, is that how you rule it?

There is no official GW FAQ that im aware of however the INAT FAQ does clarify that you may fire template weapons out of a firepoint, and Last Years GW GT and Ard Boyz both ruled that way so it seems safe to say that it is the generally accepted way to play. There is, however, no direct RAW to specifically support it.

You can fire a flamer out of a firepoint as long as the firepoint is on the edge of the vehicle's hull.

The new IG codex is quite different. To simplify matters, you treat the central turret as your firing ports (chimera), and all models fire from it. Since the turret is mounted somewhat centrally on the chimera, you cannot flamer out of it because you would hit your own vehicle.

I don't go to Adepticon or particularly care about their funky rule changes, but I know what the rulebook says: You cannot fire a template weapon that covers friendly models.
---------------------------------------------------------
As a side note, I had an opportunity to play against this list today. I had our local resident IG player bring Shep's list against me. We got round 2, dawn of war with modified killpoints. He played tactically sound, and melta cannons are absolutely ridiculous, as are having a flamer on every vehicle. Dice rolls went heavily in my favor...I rolled absolutely ridiculously well. We ended up 15 KP to 8 KP, and I got a major victory.

Dashofpepper wrote:You can fire a flamer out of a firepoint as long as the firepoint is on the edge of the vehicle's hull.

The new IG codex is quite different. To simplify matters, you treat the central turret as your firing ports (chimera), and all models fire from it. Since the turret is mounted somewhat centrally on the chimera, you cannot flamer out of it because you would hit your own vehicle.

I don't go to Adepticon or particularly care about their funky rule changes, but I know what the rulebook says: You cannot fire a template weapon that covers friendly models.
---------------------------------------------------------
As a side note, I had an opportunity to play against this list today. I had our local resident IG player bring Shep's list against me. We got round 2, dawn of war with modified killpoints. He played tactically sound, and melta cannons are absolutely ridiculous, as are having a flamer on every vehicle. Dice rolls went heavily in my favor...I rolled absolutely ridiculously well. We ended up 15 KP to 8 KP, and I got a major victory.

your probably the first person I have ever seen that argues you cant fire a flamer out of a rhino, and I do it all the time with my marines in tournaments without a problem. As been said it was ruled OK at a GT and for ard boyz, and by every TO i've run into.

i would clarify this flamer dispute with a tournament organizer before games to make sure arguements are kept to a minimum once the dice start flying. Its likely this rule will be subject to interpretation and various regions may play it differently. I can almost assure you that most places will allow firing a flame weapon out of a vehicles fire point.

Dash are you saying i can fire my squads weapons out of the turret of a chimera? if so that means you would miss the hull of the vehicle entirely.

I will agree with Khornatedemon and the INAT Faq and say I will be able to fire flamers out of fire points.

I would also say so, but like i posted sometimes the rules get interpreted differently depending on region.

Shep when we make it to the finals you'll have to fight my guard list-15 vehicles vs 18 vehicles=more carnage than a demolition derby!

When you go to Adepticon, you're welcome to use the Adepticon FAQ.

However, remember that the Adepticon FAQ blatantly changes, modifies, and creates rules that it doesn't feel fits the spirit of 40k and other "stuff." Adepticon is not a GW tournament. 'Ard Boyz IS a GW tournament, and will not be following the Adepticon FAQ, it will be following the GW rules.

P.28: "...the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models."
P.29: "...You may not place the marker so that the base or hull of any of your own models is even grazed by it."
P.62: "...Ranges and line of sight are measured from the fire point itself."


You've very clearly been instructed on how to fire this weapon. In a game, I am absolutely going to require you to abide by the rules, just like I am required to abide by them. You're welcome to use "house rules" for friendly games, but at a tournament, I expect everyone to follow the same rules that I have to follow. If you place a blast or template weapon on the table, and it covers ANY PART of a friendly model, you may not fire it there. If your fire points are not on the outside hull of your vehicle, the passengers inside may not fire their template weapon if the template touches part of the vehicle it is embarked upon.

I don't make the rules, but I follow them; and expect other people to do so as well. There is no interpretation to make, and I don't care what the INAT FAQ says; this weekend is a GW tournament with GW rules, not Adepticon with INAT rules.

Dashofpepper wrote:When you go to Adepticon, you're welcome to use the Adepticon FAQ.

However, remember that the Adepticon FAQ blatantly changes, modifies, and creates rules that it doesn't feel fits the spirit of 40k and other "stuff." Adepticon is not a GW tournament. 'Ard Boyz IS a GW tournament, and will not be following the Adepticon FAQ, it will be following the GW rules.

P.28: "...the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models."
P.29: "...You may not place the marker so that the base or hull of any of your own models is even grazed by it."
P.62: "...Ranges and line of sight are measured from the fire point itself."


You've very clearly been instructed on how to fire this weapon. In a game, I am absolutely going to require you to abide by the rules, just like I am required to abide by them. You're welcome to use "house rules" for friendly games, but at a tournament, I expect everyone to follow the same rules that I have to follow. If you place a blast or template weapon on the table, and it covers ANY PART of a friendly model, you may not fire it there. If your fire points are not on the outside hull of your vehicle, the passengers inside may not fire their template weapon if the template touches part of the vehicle it is embarked upon.

I don't make the rules, but I follow them; and expect other people to do so as well. There is no interpretation to make, and I don't care what the INAT FAQ says; this weekend is a GW tournament with GW rules, not Adepticon with INAT rules.

GW will clarify rules like this for the 'ard boys finals since the RAW are inconsistent. Why is weapon a arbitrarily penalized for using a fire point while weapon b is not? That is why Adepticon made a clarification of the ruleset for things like this and about 80 other things that aren't at all clear in the rulebook or have inconsistencies.

The point is moot because GW will likely release a FAQ for the 'ard boyz tournament anyway that will clarify this rule as well. I believe the precedent in the past is that they usually agree with the Adepticon assessments.

Was there an FAQ last year? And if there was, I'm curious to know what it said about Deff Rollas vs. vehicles.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, this weekend is a Tournament that uses the rules of whatever the tournament organizer at your local FLGS that is hosting the tournament rules... which means your mileage may vary...

This is also only one of MANY inconsistent, vague, and controversial aspects of the rule set, so its an endless argument... read a white dwarf battle report and you'll see how inconsistent they are with their own games

Dashofpepper wrote:When you go to Adepticon, you're welcome to use the Adepticon FAQ.

However, remember that the Adepticon FAQ blatantly changes, modifies, and creates rules that it doesn't feel fits the spirit of 40k and other "stuff." Adepticon is not a GW tournament. 'Ard Boyz IS a GW tournament, and will not be following the Adepticon FAQ, it will be following the GW rules.

P.28: "...the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models."
P.29: "...You may not place the marker so that the base or hull of any of your own models is even grazed by it."
P.62: "...Ranges and line of sight are measured from the fire point itself."


You've very clearly been instructed on how to fire this weapon. In a game, I am absolutely going to require you to abide by the rules, just like I am required to abide by them. You're welcome to use "house rules" for friendly games, but at a tournament, I expect everyone to follow the same rules that I have to follow. If you place a blast or template weapon on the table, and it covers ANY PART of a friendly model, you may not fire it there. If your fire points are not on the outside hull of your vehicle, the passengers inside may not fire their template weapon if the template touches part of the vehicle it is embarked upon.

I don't make the rules, but I follow them; and expect other people to do so as well. There is no interpretation to make, and I don't care what the INAT FAQ says; this weekend is a GW tournament with GW rules, not Adepticon with INAT rules.

forget the adepticon faq. Like we said it was ruled ok at both GW GT's AND ard boyz finals last year. That coupled with the fact I havent met a TO that plays the way you think and I'm pretty confident that us flamer out of the top of rhino people are ok.

Dashofpepper wrote:When you go to Adepticon, you're welcome to use the Adepticon FAQ.

However, remember that the Adepticon FAQ blatantly changes, modifies, and creates rules that it doesn't feel fits the spirit of 40k and other "stuff." Adepticon is not a GW tournament. 'Ard Boyz IS a GW tournament, and will not be following the Adepticon FAQ, it will be following the GW rules.

P.28: "...the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models."
P.29: "...You may not place the marker so that the base or hull of any of your own models is even grazed by it."
P.62: "...Ranges and line of sight are measured from the fire point itself."


You've very clearly been instructed on how to fire this weapon. In a game, I am absolutely going to require you to abide by the rules, just like I am required to abide by them. You're welcome to use "house rules" for friendly games, but at a tournament, I expect everyone to follow the same rules that I have to follow. If you place a blast or template weapon on the table, and it covers ANY PART of a friendly model, you may not fire it there. If your fire points are not on the outside hull of your vehicle, the passengers inside may not fire their template weapon if the template touches part of the vehicle it is embarked upon.

I don't make the rules, but I follow them; and expect other people to do so as well. There is no interpretation to make, and I don't care what the INAT FAQ says; this weekend is a GW tournament with GW rules, not Adepticon with INAT rules.

Just remember, by your rationale, if you don't have a Deff Rolla modelled onto your Battlewagon, you can't use it. You've previously advised you had to proxy a couple items of wargear since GW doesn't make the model. WYSIWYG is written into the Ard Boyz rules. All I'm saying is be careful what you demand in regards to the rules.

Flamers grazing vehicle hulls from thier own firepoints is arbitary.

Deffrollas vs vehicles is not arbitary, its game changing.

Careful not to compare & contrast these two Dash...

Sarigar wrote:Just remember, by your rationale, if you don't have a Deff Rolla modelled onto your Battlewagon, you can't use it. You've previously advised you had to proxy a couple items of wargear since GW doesn't make the model. WYSIWYG is written into the Ard Boyz rules. All I'm saying is be careful what you demand in regards to the rules.

You can use the "Counts As" rule to handle that sort of stuff. Just because it says WYSIWYG doesn't mean it has to be GW stuff.

Dash,

Forget about INAT ok, GW, yes GW, the company that make the rules, GW...

They ruled both for GT and Ard Boyz that flamers may fire out of fire points. If you still have a problem with it clarify it with your TO.

Just because you interpret a rule one way does not meant that is the established convention of play and does not give you the right to demand someone else use your interpretation.

That clear enough for you?

Gornall wrote:

Sarigar wrote:Just remember, by your rationale, if you don't have a Deff Rolla modelled onto your Battlewagon, you can't use it. You've previously advised you had to proxy a couple items of wargear since GW doesn't make the model. WYSIWYG is written into the Ard Boyz rules. All I'm saying is be careful what you demand in regards to the rules.

You can use the "Counts As" rule to handle that sort of stuff. Just because it says WYSIWYG doesn't mean it has to be GW stuff.

QFT.

WYSIWYG means that each model must have upgrades clearly delineated by some sort of addition. The majority of the model must consist of GW parts.

That doesn't mean that a Deff Rolla needs to be a big circular spiky ball, it means that a battlewagon must have a clearly identifiable feature demonstrating that it has a Deffrolla that seperates it from other battlewagons without a Deff Rolla, and that the majority of the the pieces making up the battlewagon and Deff Rolla must be citadel parts.

Semantics at this point because I've stopped using Deff Rollas because I'm tired of the arguments. Also irrelevant to compare with flamers firing out of ports. One is a modeling issue, one is a rules issue. There's not really any comparison.

And bigtmac68...if you can link me the FAQ where GW has noted that flamers firing out of vehicle ports not on a vehicle hull is ok, then I'll consider the rules in this case to be irrelevant and go with the FAQ. Short of that, the rules are absolutely clear. There's not even any room for confusion or contention. There's no ambiguous language. Just because you don't like it and wish to circumvent the rules in your own games doesn't make it right. There is NO interpretation to be had of the rules in this case; they're crystal clear. I don't demand someone use my interpretations, I demand that interpretations stay out of 40k games and that we play by the rules.

That clear enough for YOU? Cheat all you like, but don't do it in my games.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to quote something I just read somewhere else...

Popularity of an opinion does not make it correct. The RAW is very clear.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Sarigar wrote:Just remember, by your rationale, if you don't have a Deff Rolla modelled onto your Battlewagon, you can't use it. You've previously advised you had to proxy a couple items of wargear since GW doesn't make the model. WYSIWYG is written into the Ard Boyz rules. All I'm saying is be careful what you demand in regards to the rules.

You can use the "Counts As" rule to handle that sort of stuff. Just because it says WYSIWYG doesn't mean it has to be GW stuff.

QFT.

WYSIWYG means that each model must have upgrades clearly delineated by some sort of addition. The majority of the model must consist of GW parts.

That doesn't mean that a Deff Rolla needs to be a big circular spiky ball, it means that a battlewagon must have a clearly identifiable feature demonstrating that it has a Deffrolla that seperates it from other battlewagons without a Deff Rolla, and that the majority of the the pieces making up the battlewagon and Deff Rolla must be citadel parts.

Semantics at this point because I've stopped using Deff Rollas because I'm tired of the arguments. Also irrelevant to compare with flamers firing out of ports. One is a modeling issue, one is a rules issue. There's not really any comparison.

And bigtmac68...if you can link me the FAQ where GW has noted that flamers firing out of vehicle ports not on a vehicle hull is ok, then I'll consider the rules in this case to be irrelevant and go with the FAQ. Short of that, the rules are absolutely clear. There's not even any room for confusion or contention. There's no ambiguous language. Just because you don't like it and wish to circumvent the rules in your own games doesn't make it right. There is NO interpretation to be had of the rules in this case; they're crystal clear. I don't demand someone use my interpretations, I demand that interpretations stay out of 40k games and that we play by the rules.

That clear enough for YOU? Cheat all you like, but don't do it in my games.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to quote something I just read somewhere else...

Popularity of an opinion does not make it correct. The RAW is very clear.

then we will continue to keep cheating while you languish in your 40k la la land.

Popularity of opinion does make it correct if the people running events are of the opinion that is in touch with that of the popular idea. So you can play it how you wish. The rest of us will play it how our TO's say we can.

I look forward to Monday's report where you were flamered out of a Chimera and the TO allowed it.

By your interpretation, Immolators, turret HF Chimeras, and Bane Wolves are all paperweights.

Shotgun, don't be a git.

That's not even remotely what we're talking about. An immolator fires its weapon from the turret, as do turret HF chimeras. I don't know what a bane wolf is. The only thing you MAY NOT DO is fire your flamer over friendly models. You can't flame one of your own units.

Firing a passenger mounted flamer from a centrally mounted spot in a transport would flame your own vehicle (not from the vehicles weaponry) which is illegal. Khornatedemon, you can play how your TOs say that you can. Where I'm from, TOs have the rulebook and FAQs to make decisions from.

Crap like, "Well, someone somewhere else said it was ok once" doesn't mean anything. If your TO says its ok...that's fine. It clearly violates the rules, but that's their prerogative. I have no issue pointing out to a TO what the rule says if I run into this scenario, and noting that one unit is attempting to flamer me through another unit. That's an absolute black and white no-no.

Dashofpepper wrote:Shotgun, don't be a git.

That's not even remotely what we're talking about. An immolator fires its weapon from the turret, as do turret HF chimeras. I don't know what a bane wolf is. The only thing you MAY NOT DO is fire your flamer over friendly models. You can't flame one of your own units.

Firing a passenger mounted flamer from a centrally mounted spot in a transport would flame your own vehicle (not from the vehicles weaponry) which is illegal. Khornatedemon, you can play how your TOs say that you can. Where I'm from, TOs have the rulebook and FAQs to make decisions from.

Crap like, "Well, someone somewhere else said it was ok once" doesn't mean anything. If your TO says its ok...that's fine. It clearly violates the rules, but that's their prerogative. I have no issue pointing out to a TO what the rule says if I run into this scenario, and noting that one unit is attempting to flamer me through another unit. That's an absolute black and white no-no.

And where I'm from TO's have the sense to take rulings handed down by GW to mind when they make their own rulings.

Actually if you want to be technical shotgun is correct. Why does a turret ignore what you are saying about fire points? The template will still go over part of the vehicles own hull, which is a no no.

How the frack am I being a git?

All three of those things I listed use a flame template fired from a turrent. When firing -anywhere- but possibly 90 degrees tot he left and right, the template will overlap the body of the vehicle, which from your possition is completely illegal. There is no stipulation for turrent fired weapons...if the template covers a friendly, it can't fire.

GW makes illegal models?

GW make rules all the time that make thier own models unplayable. When this happens we have to get rulings to cover them.

That is Hardly Cheating there Dash.

If the TO where you play ( remember you have admited to having very limited 40k experince and a very small play area) does not allow this, that is the ONLY one I am aware of.

No, none, 0 not any major tournaments rule it this way. Not Adepticon, Not GW GTS, Not Ard Boyz, Not the European GT, not the Austrailian GT, NONE OF THEM.

I fully agree this is something GW should have put a hard FAQ out on the day after the 5th ed book came out. I also agree that the Pure RAW supports your play. So does the fact that terminators do not have terminator armo, would you insist that your opponent play that way as well?

The reason GW does not FAQ these things is that they wish people like you did not play thier games. Im not kidding here, Ask Jervis yourself at gamesday, I have.

They feel that RAW players hurt the hobby and do not want them around. I disagree with this, and think they should just write logical clear rules, but thats not the game we play.

So do whatever you want, play as your local store plays, but just understand that when you get to regionals your opponets WILL flame you out of thier fire points and you can whine about it all you want but it will not change anything.

Having played 5th edition games in 4 states and over 15 different venues including three indy GT's I have NEVER had a TO or even an oppenent say that you can't fire flamers from a firepoint on a rhino.

bigtmac68 wrote:The reason GW does not FAQ these things is that they wish people like you did not play thier games. Im not kidding here, Ask Jervis yourself at gamesday, I have.

They feel that RAW players hurt the hobby and do not want them around. I disagree with this, and think they should just write logical clear rules, but thats not the game we play.

That's completely crazy on GWs part. How can you run a tournament and not expect people to want a clear, concise ruleset that they can use without interpretation? Don't get me wrong, my gaming group uses a fair amount of RAI/House Rules (the flaming out of fire points being one of them) to avoid some of the issues apparent in RAW, but I hate having to do a full "brief" each time I play someone else to make sure their interpretation of the rules is the same as mine. WTB Ironclad Rules... 23/23/23 with Holofields and Venerable.

Gornall wrote:

bigtmac68 wrote:The reason GW does not FAQ these things is that they wish people like you did not play thier games. Im not kidding here, Ask Jervis yourself at gamesday, I have.

They feel that RAW players hurt the hobby and do not want them around. I disagree with this, and think they should just write logical clear rules, but thats not the game we play.

That's completely crazy on GWs part. How can you run a tournament and not expect people to want a clear, concise ruleset that they can use without interpretation? Don't get me wrong, my gaming group uses a fair amount of RAI/House Rules (the flaming out of fire points being one of them) to avoid some of the issues apparent in RAW, but I hate having to do a full "brief" each time I play someone else to make sure their interpretation of the rules is the same as mine. WTB Ironclad Rules... 23/23/23 with Holofields and Venerable.

I am not supporting thier position. Just read Jervis little blurb in the last few white dwarf issues. You see they ( I dont know if this is a Jervis thing or bigger in GW europe) see competive gaming as a whole as bad for the hobby. So anything that they see as tournament gamer style rules lawyering they dislike. Remember that the very first rule in the book is that there are no rules, just suggestions. They want to encourage casual friendly games and discourage competive gaming.

I think that ignores a huge part of thier market, hell I have dropped 1500 bucks this quarter alone just for armies to play at Adepticon and Ard Boyz. It got me back into the hobby after 4 years out of it.

So you have the problem that the people writng the actual books dont like the very idea of tournaments, yet the events staff are trying to make the tournaments usefull. Compare the number of people who attend Games Day to the number who attend a GT and you can see why GW feels the way they do. You are talking a 100-1 ratio of casual to tournament players. Sure, most tournament players buy a lot more than most non tournament types, but not enough to make it even a drop in the bucket by comparison.

So in reality its not so crazy from GW's perspective. They dont bother with updating FAQ's or making good ones, or decent errata because to 95% of thier customer base they are irrelevant.

You measure vehicle weaponry from the tip of the mounted turret. Last time I checked, Hellhounds, immolators, and everything else place the template away from the vehicle, don't they? Up to 24" away? And if you were to flame right outside the vehicle, the template gets placed at the tip of the muzzle, which still makes it not land on the tank itself, as the muzzle extends past the hull.

And regardless of how you look at it...there's a rule that cannot be broken: You may NEVER template your own stuff. The rules dictate how you interact with your own stuff. Just follow the rules.

Dashofpepper wrote:You measure vehicle weaponry from the tip of the mounted turret. Last time I checked, Hellhounds, immolators, and everything else place the template away from the vehicle, don't they? Up to 24" away? And if you were to flame right outside the vehicle, the template gets placed at the tip of the muzzle, which still makes it not land on the tank itself, as the muzzle extends past the hull.

And regardless of how you look at it...there's a rule that cannot be broken: You may NEVER template your own stuff. The rules dictate how you interact with your own stuff. Just follow the rules.

actually the chem cannon on the bane hound and the flamers on an immolator dont fire at range and are standard put theplate at tip of nozzle weapons. The flamers on the immolator infact do not extrand past the hull. So the base of the template would in fact touch the hull. So immolators cant fire?

edit:

thought of some other fine examples. The combi-flamer on a chaos rhino. The Heavy flamers on a defiler. Both of those would touch the hull if fired. Hell the heavy flamer on a dread would have the tip of the template touching its hand. Ohh how about the arm mounted flamers on a wraithlord? They touch the model as well.

does a hull flamer on a chimera or leman russ extend past the hull fully? That could be another one.

bigtmac68 wrote:I am not supporting thier position. Just read Jervis little blurb in the last few white dwarf issues. You see they ( I dont know if this is a Jervis thing or bigger in GW europe) see competive gaming as a whole as bad for the hobby. So anything that they see as tournament gamer style rules lawyering they dislike. Remember that the very first rule in the book is that there are no rules, just suggestions. They want to encourage casual friendly games and discourage competive gaming.

I think that ignores a huge part of thier market, hell I have dropped 1500 bucks this quarter alone just for armies to play at Adepticon and Ard Boyz. It got me back into the hobby after 4 years out of it.

So you have the problem that the people writng the actual books dont like the very idea of tournaments, yet the events staff are trying to make the tournaments usefull. Compare the number of people who attend Games Day to the number who attend a GT and you can see why GW feels the way they do. You are talking a 100-1 ratio of casual to tournament players. Sure, most tournament players buy a lot more than most non tournament types, but not enough to make it even a drop in the bucket by comparison.

So in reality its not so crazy from GW's perspective. They dont bother with updating FAQ's or making good ones, or decent errata because to 95% of thier customer base they are irrelevant.

That's a pretty good point about the ratio of casual/hardcore and how they do see the game as a beer and pretezels endevour. I just think they could have their cake and eat it too if they wrote a tighter and more consistent ruleset that severely limited the wiggle-room that makes rules-lawyering/confusing rules possible. I'm a fairly casual player (going to play in my first 'Ard Boyz this Saturday), but I still want consistent rules where I don't have to worry about if my opponent interprets them the same way I do. Tighter rules language would make me happy, and goodness knows it'd make the competitive players/TOs happy too. And happy people buy more models.

Dashofpepper wrote:You measure vehicle weaponry from the tip of the mounted turret. Last time I checked, Hellhounds, immolators, and everything else place the template away from the vehicle, don't they? Up to 24" away? And if you were to flame right outside the vehicle, the template gets placed at the tip of the muzzle, which still makes it not land on the tank itself, as the muzzle extends past the hull.

And regardless of how you look at it...there's a rule that cannot be broken: You may NEVER template your own stuff. The rules dictate how you interact with your own stuff. Just follow the rules.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with your potential opponents better.

All of these, using current models (not sure what the new Hellhound box will look like yet), the flame template weapon supplied by GW stops -before- it reaches the edge of the hull. None of the stated models "throw" a template. I would -love- to be able to "throw" a banewolf chemcannon template.

Also, given they are turret mounted in many cases, consider the situations where you want to fire in a direction other than the front (this is specifically in regards to Immolators and turrent mounted heavy flamers on Chimeras). By Dash's interpretation, the fact that its even on a turret is near useless. Poor wording and lack of foresight in a rulebook should not be the primary driver for your ruling, where there is a clear intent that these models should have some practical use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On that note, this thread has gone from "Battle Report" to "You Make the Call"

bigtmac68 wrote:

Gornall wrote:

bigtmac68 wrote:The reason GW does not FAQ these things is that they wish people like you did not play thier games. Im not kidding here, Ask Jervis yourself at gamesday, I have.

They feel that RAW players hurt the hobby and do not want them around. I disagree with this, and think they should just write logical clear rules, but thats not the game we play.

That's completely crazy on GWs part. How can you run a tournament and not expect people to want a clear, concise ruleset that they can use without interpretation? Don't get me wrong, my gaming group uses a fair amount of RAI/House Rules (the flaming out of fire points being one of them) to avoid some of the issues apparent in RAW, but I hate having to do a full "brief" each time I play someone else to make sure their interpretation of the rules is the same as mine. WTB Ironclad Rules... 23/23/23 with Holofields and Venerable.

I am not supporting thier position. Just read Jervis little blurb in the last few white dwarf issues. You see they ( I dont know if this is a Jervis thing or bigger in GW europe) see competive gaming as a whole as bad for the hobby. So anything that they see as tournament gamer style rules lawyering they dislike. Remember that the very first rule in the book is that there are no rules, just suggestions. They want to encourage casual friendly games and discourage competive gaming.

I think that ignores a huge part of thier market, hell I have dropped 1500 bucks this quarter alone just for armies to play at Adepticon and Ard Boyz. It got me back into the hobby after 4 years out of it.

So you have the problem that the people writng the actual books dont like the very idea of tournaments, yet the events staff are trying to make the tournaments usefull. Compare the number of people who attend Games Day to the number who attend a GT and you can see why GW feels the way they do. You are talking a 100-1 ratio of casual to tournament players. Sure, most tournament players buy a lot more than most non tournament types, but not enough to make it even a drop in the bucket by comparison.

So in reality its not so crazy from GW's perspective. They dont bother with updating FAQ's or making good ones, or decent errata because to 95% of thier customer base they are irrelevant.

The foolishness of their position is that the amount of resources they would have to use to write a solid FAQ every 6 months and publish it on their site would be negligible and well worth it even if it's only for 1% of their user-base. Mass producing models is a pricey undertaking. Publishing a FAQ on the internet is not.

Just ask the guys involved in the INAT FAQ how much time is involved. Read one YMDC thread. It's not as easy as it seems.

I agree that the very clear RAI issues like the Valkyrie or Template Weapons from Fire Points should be very easy to resolve.

However doing it right takes a lot of time due to how many issues there are and how some answers can literally change the balance of the game.

Remember, I totally agree that they should, I would kill a puppy to have a really good and reqularly updated 40k FAQ.

That would solve situations like this one where Dash who plays where no one fires templates out of firepoints does not make it to the regionals, deploy and move his army based on that assumption and then have everyone stare at him like he is insane when he tries to tell his opponent ( who has always played his way everywhere he has ever played) that he cant use his flamers the way his entire army is designed for them to work.

Either way one of them is screwed through no fault of his own. That is why all the indy GT's use the INAT, and I applaud it even though I vehemently dissagree with a number of the rulings in it.

I am glad to play under it, because it makes everything clear.

Just ask the guys involved in the INAT FAQ how much time is involved. Read one YMDC thread. It's not as easy as it seems.

Trying to accurately decipher the intentions of others based on some scraps of poor written rules is difficult, however it takes hardly any effort at all for GW to simply state their own intentions.

The only effort required on their part at all is really to identify the questions that need answering. Half of the FAQs consist of rules changes rather than clarifications anyway. It would take a competent intern all of 10 minutes to slap a PDF together and upload it to the GW website.

bigtmac68 wrote:Just ask the guys involved in the INAT FAQ how much time is involved. Read one YMDC thread. It's not as easy as it seems.

I disagree completely. Alot of the arguments on YMDC are because the rules are not clear, and can be interpreted one of two ways. If GW would just say that it's one way and not the other, there wouldn't be any arguments. How hard is it to say, "Well hey, we didn't intend for Painboyz to have 'eavy armor." Problem solved.

Danny Internets wrote:

Just ask the guys involved in the INAT FAQ how much time is involved. Read one YMDC thread. It's not as easy as it seems.

Trying to accurately decipher the intentions of others based on some scraps of poor written rules is difficult, however it takes hardly any effort at all for GW to simply state their own intentions.

The only effort required on their part at all is really to identify the questions that need answering. Half of the FAQs consist of rules changes rather than clarifications anyway. It would take a competent intern all of 10 minutes to slap a PDF together and upload it to the GW website.

Sure once that intern has the answers to the questions. That requires taking the time to get the questions and taking the time to get the answers, neither of which the sole intern is qualified to do. That is the problem, I just dont think they care enough to take the time because people like you and me who actually care about well written rules are in such a minority.

And remember its not just that they feel we are not as important as the casual gamer, but that we actually drive them away so are a detriment to the hobby as a whole. Im not saying I agree, only that this is thier repeatedly published point of view. ( Primarilly Jervis here again)

I agree that it would not take much effort to maintain it, or to post it, but I do think that the effort to actually think it up is one they are reluctant to do. Especially since no matter what they rule, they get only negative feedback about it. Thats why I think that we almost never see anyone from GW online other than the event staff ( who have been doing great lately!!!! ) no matter what they rule or say, the will just get beaten over the head about it by the people who did not like the ruling.


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whitedragon wrote:

bigtmac68 wrote:Just ask the guys involved in the INAT FAQ how much time is involved. Read one YMDC thread. It's not as easy as it seems.

I disagree completely. Alot of the arguments on YMDC are because the rules are not clear, and can be interpreted one of two ways. If GW would just say that it's one way and not the other, there wouldn't be any arguments. How hard is it to say, "Well hey, we didn't intend for Painboyz to have 'eavy armor." Problem solved.

You see, that is where the disconnect lies. In ther mind the answer is

"Who Cares, play how you want."

I have had this conversation with some of the GW UK crew back when I used to own an FLGS. They always just shook thier head at me and said. " What is it about you americans, the book says that the rules are just a guildine, why cant you just lighten up and have fun. Its just a game mate." or words almost exactly to that effect every time.

It is not that they cant, or even that they wont. Its more that they culturally (as a company) do not understand the reason to. I think thats why the FAQs we get are always so odd and never seem to answer the questions most of us had.

Your right that most of the questions shoudl be simple, but who in GW makes that call? Since they do not have a single person with that supervisory authority ( if they did we probably would not have all these problems )


Again, im not defending this position, or agreeing with this position. Hand me the puppy and I'll kill it right now if It would give us a solid FAQ or Errata system. Im just telling you that unless something very serious changes in GW corporate culture you are not likley to see it.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Sarigar wrote:Just remember, by your rationale, if you don't have a Deff Rolla modelled onto your Battlewagon, you can't use it. You've previously advised you had to proxy a couple items of wargear since GW doesn't make the model. WYSIWYG is written into the Ard Boyz rules. All I'm saying is be careful what you demand in regards to the rules.

You can use the "Counts As" rule to handle that sort of stuff. Just because it says WYSIWYG doesn't mean it has to be GW stuff.

QFT.

WYSIWYG means that each model must have upgrades clearly delineated by some sort of addition. The majority of the model must consist of GW parts.

That doesn't mean that a Deff Rolla needs to be a big circular spiky ball, it means that a battlewagon must have a clearly identifiable feature demonstrating that it has a Deffrolla that seperates it from other battlewagons without a Deff Rolla, and that the majority of the the pieces making up the battlewagon and Deff Rolla must be citadel parts.

Semantics at this point because I've stopped using Deff Rollas because I'm tired of the arguments. Also irrelevant to compare with flamers firing out of ports. One is a modeling issue, one is a rules issue. There's not really any comparison.


-@ Gorall and Dash: Umm, I didn't claim it had to be GW parts for a Deff Rolla.

-My point being is the Ard Boyz did place the rule that I posted, not a Counts As rule. I agree that there needs to be something identifiable to claim it is a Deff Rolla. However, by your own previous admission on another thread, you could not build conversions and GW did not make a Deff Rolla, therefore you would simply claim a BW had a Deff Rolla. By simply stating a model has something, yet there is nothing identifiable on the model, this is what I meant by 'proxying'. I may have used the incorrect term, but you never claimed to have converted something in place of a Deff Rolla.

-Your claim it is a modelling issue is actually a rule in the Ard Boyz packet. If someone didn't have WYSIWYG on their models, I could just as well call over a judge and request the person not get the use out of the item in question b/c the player has broken a rule.

-I simply advise to be mindful of any and all rules. If you are going to remain unflinching on one rule that may be up for debate, be prepared for an opponent to make the same claim of a different rule being violated, whether or not you deem it as important.