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Post by: Mahu
There is a growing shift in the 40k Metagame that has started to make me ponder certain ideas.
Ever since the Guard hit the tables, people have been going more and more mechanized (not that this wasn't a trend to begin with). And why wouldn't you? Units transported tend to cost as much or less then Jump Infantry and are usually troops to boot. With every Guard player putting out 4 or 5 Large "I kill you" templates. With Lash and PBSs totally screwing your units. There is almost no reason to ever field any models that don't have at least a modicum of armored protection. Even Orks are more leaning towards Battlwagons as their previous super unit. Nob Bikerz, are no longer as reliable.
You are also seeing armies reacting to this. Taking meltas and multimeltas in units. Fielding more short ranged guaranteed tank killing units. IG tending to field str. 10 templates over the traditional options, every SM army is a Vulkan list.
So essentially, where 40k 4th Edition was all about the gearing to kill MEQs by stuffing as many low AP shots into a list, 40k 5th Edition in about putting as many tank busting units in a list as possible.
However I see a dark side to this. Armies like Orks and Tyranids can literally put so many bodies on the table, that they can easily overwhelm a traditional army by sheer weight of numbers.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
I see this as a serious PhD thesis at Oxfard.
G
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Post by: Shotgun
Orks and bugs will still be hard pressed to overwhelm mech gaurd. 65 points gets you 9 36" shots, and you still can get a HB from the unit -in- the transport. That's alot of dakka.
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Post by: Tek
Good point. However surely the balancing of the aforementioned "I kill you" pieplates, horde armies are going to be having a tough time with that anyway.
Since 5th I've relied much more on templates and RoF than ever. As an Eldar player, I've kissed goodbye to my trusty Starcannons and have welcomed the missile launcher and Scatter Laser into my army.
I also tend to load up on Brightlances too, as people now tend to be a lot more mechanised than they used to be, as you said.
My IG opponent hasn't quite grasped the importance of mech yet, but tends to field a whole lot of armour. I am now terrified of the new Guard Dex. I used to run circles around them with my pretty darn fast army. I am running out of tactics now though...
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Post by: imweasel
Nids are not a real threat as all the anti tank will make short work of mcs and flamers to their hordes. Orks are a different beast altogether...
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Post by: SsevenN
Well I'm (un)lucky enough to have a pretty undeveloped local meta.
The gamers tend to be on the younger side, probably 50% are under 18, and 20% over 30. Many don't have the financial commitment to keep up with the trends.
There are a few 'Hard Knocks', but not enough army/player variation for our local scene to evolve very much. In the end I don't go there often, I'm not an eliteist, but the scene is awfully casual, the tables are un-flocked and very half-a$$ed, and there is a pretty large base of players with unassembled/missing pieces-style armys. Not that there is anything wrong with casual, but out of 15 or so dedicated local players. My self and two others actually have painted armys. I have a fully flocked 4x8 with (crappy) matching scenery, I have seats, shelf space, and fresh air, all things that are lacking at the local 'shop'.
/rant
I guess what I'm saying is MY meta is very different to yours. Mostly because of the level of competition and overall pool of players. So while the face of 40k changes, some of us gamer groups are like backwater third world countrys. We don't see the everyday change, and end up using what ever is availible, even if it's inferior. We have a commitment to 40k, but it is relativly light compared to the evolution taking place in the top tier enviroments.
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Post by: Daydream
Mahu, you've hit all the reasons that I take my Nids to most tournaments these days. Outflanking stealers and TMCs have really gained a boost by the swap to melta. The hive mind in me giggles a little bit when I see an army reviewer say that melta is the only option in a list.
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Post by: Dronze
This phase will pass, but I don't see it as such a major shift in the metagame, to be honest. Yes, the new Codices have a lot of cheap troop transports, but barring pillboxing, I think that they may end up being more of a liability to the player than a boon, and I think mech is going to be a relatively short-lived trend, much like dual lash and nob bikers were. When the next new codex hits (provided it's not SW or some other SM army), you're going to see another disruption. 5th edition has been out long enough that people have kind of figured out the "hacks", as it were, and will be able to more quickly go to work breaking any new codex that hits.
Prime example: Mech is countered by drop pods based solely on the fact that they can't keep their rear out of danger from everything, and deep striking anything with an anti-tank threat (read as krak grenades and plasma weapons) is going to put a lot of pressure on the traditional mech players to try and find answers to threats in the backfield while dealing with the threats in front of them. Bottlenecking a mech army, as long as you have reliable armor busting that can come in from the flanks or rear, isn't going to be a difficult thing to achieve, and I think that both orks and especially 'Nids have answers to the issue of mechanized infantery, the latter's being genestealers and winged tyrants.
5th edition changed up the pacing of the game a lot, and it shows. Infantry doesn't need a transport to get itself into position, but it certainly makes things handy. every army still has answers to mech, and the so-called 'bottom tier' armies are going to see a bit of a re-working by the more creative players in our midst to actually make them work.
But maybe I'm just some overly optimistic sod who likes to see someone playing pariahs to their strengths....
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Post by: bigtmac68
Mech has been the way to go since the dawn of 5th, it has just taken a while for the global metagame to catch up to it.
( love him or hate him, Stelek has been screaming this from the sidelines for a year now )
It's very simmilar to the old days of the 3rd Ed Rhino Rush just not so focused on assault as it was back then. I love the trend myself as it means a more mobile game, and im a tread head so I dont feel a game is complete without lots of Armored goodness on the table.
So now the choice is Mech or Anti Mech, and that leaves a huge variety of potential builds for most armies, however some armies are pretty much out in the cold right now (Tyranids and Necron mostly).
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Post by: Regwon
This isnt a new thing.
Ever since 5th came out anybody that has been paying attention has been preaching about the benefits for mech armies. What did it was the combination of lots of cover saves for infantry and the changes to the vehicle damage table. This is why everyone has picked up melta guns instead of plasma guns as soon as 5th came out. Its easier to kill most infantry with a high volume of shots than low AP fire because theyre going to get a save anyway, and its damn hard to kill tanks if you dont get +2d6 to armour penetration and +1 on the table.
In recent times, nob bikers and demons were the abnormalities that broke the rule. Every single other army had to have mech elements to be properly competitive. Dual lash, for example, just doesnt function as well without plague marines in rhinos.
This wont really change until 6th comes out or the next few releases from GW have very superior footsloggin elements, which i dont really see happening.
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Post by: ifyouseekamy
As an IG player who started a few months before the 5E dex, even I can tell how the meta has changed.
In 4e, Guard were about bringing massed infantry platoons and only using up the minimum 2 troops choices, rarely using anymore than that, other than using Daemonhunters/SoB as allies. As for tanks, it was all mixed feelings between the LRBT and the LRDem. The Basilisk, I've never seen used, and I'd imagine that if it had been used, it was only used with the in/direct fire upgrade.
In 5e, it's all about massed blobs of platoon guard, accompanied by commissars, and outflanking Demolishers or Devil Dogs, some units are finally seeing the light of day(psykers, for the most part) or for some people(like myself) it's all about using Veterans, with Grenadiers and F.Sentries, where their cover is better than their armor and Going To Ground is extremely viable (yaayy, TEQ cover saves) with GBitF. Orders have changed guard ENTIRELY, for the better if I must say. it makes the game more interesting, and more fun.
As for 5e IG tanks.... Personally, I don't leave home without my list having a Medusa(no BBS), Executioner w/ PC spons, and a Demolisher w/ Pask and outflanking(I always use Creed now)
And I'm a player that has a limited budget, so I'm far from being MechVet, and prolly wont be for a long time, thanks to all the awesome new toys.
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Post by: Danny Internets
In 5e, it's all about massed blobs of platoon guard, accompanied by commissars, and outflanking Demolishers or Devil Dogs, some units are finally seeing the light of day(psykers, for the most part) or for some people(like myself) it's all about using Veterans, with Grenadiers and F.Sentries, where their cover is better than their armor and Going To Ground is extremely viable (yaayy, TEQ cover saves) with GBitF. Orders have changed guard ENTIRELY, for the better if I must say. it makes the game more interesting, and more fun.
5th edition IG is definitely not about massed blobs of platoon guard, commissars, OR outflanking.
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Post by: Khornatedemon
Dronze wrote:
Prime example: Mech is countered by drop pods based solely on the fact that they can't keep their rear out of danger from everything, and deep striking anything with an anti-tank threat (read as krak grenades and plasma weapons) is going to put a lot of pressure on the traditional mech players to try and find answers to threats in the backfield while dealing with the threats in front of them. Bottlenecking a mech army, as long as you have reliable armor busting that can come in from the flanks or rear, isn't going to be a difficult thing to achieve, and I think that both orks and especially 'Nids have answers to the issue of mechanized infantery, the latter's being genestealers and winged tyrants.
mech is countered by drop pods against people who dont know how to counter drop pods. I know anytime I see drop podding anti-tank anything I generally will reserve my entire army. Try it. It works very well against the pods. They drop in with nothing to shoot and you roll on unscathed.
Orks and nids really dont have the answer to mech. Stealers and the one winged tyrant you can take dont do squat against a competent player. Most mech armies pack enough melta's, flamers, and bolters to counter both of those. I was playing nids at the start of 5th and started getting spanked by mech armies, especially those of the vulkan and lash variety. Orks can kill transports in CC sure, but unless they are packing boarding planks and vehicles once they do that they are exposed. I can make a wall of rhinos that pretty much makes sure your never able to completely surround my tanks and once you pop them your eating bolters and flamers, and orks dont like flamers. Plus they have the huge weakness of being terribly unable to deal with land raiders. You have to get very lucky with a nob or try to get your warboss on it and then still once you do that then you have to deal with the terminators inside. i was actually considering doing orks. The i realised any of the lists i came up with couldnt stand up to my own mech marine army. Automatically Appended Next Post: Danny Internets wrote:In 5e, it's all about massed blobs of platoon guard, accompanied by commissars, and outflanking Demolishers or Devil Dogs, some units are finally seeing the light of day(psykers, for the most part) or for some people(like myself) it's all about using Veterans, with Grenadiers and F.Sentries, where their cover is better than their armor and Going To Ground is extremely viable (yaayy, TEQ cover saves) with GBitF. Orders have changed guard ENTIRELY, for the better if I must say. it makes the game more interesting, and more fun.
5th edition IG is definitely not about massed blobs of platoon guard, commissars, OR outflanking.
blob squads with commisars can be a pain. Until you hit them with a flamer or 2. Automatically Appended Next Post: Daydream wrote:Mahu, you've hit all the reasons that I take my Nids to most tournaments these days. Outflanking stealers and TMCs have really gained a boost by the swap to melta. The hive mind in me giggles a little bit when I see an army reviewer say that melta is the only option in a list.
hmm yeah I would think TMC's dont mine weapons that wound them on 2's and ignore their saves. Most reviewers with half a brain will also say to bring a few flamers. Flamer tac squad in rhino > genestealers.
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Post by: whitedragon
Mech orks would rule if you play that Deff Rollaz affect vehicles. Biker Nobz and lootaz also seem like a solid counter to mechanized, since the nobz can multicharge the crap outta stuff and are pretty resilient. Of course, if the mech player is bringing a PBS, forget it. The Mech Marine army may not be so lucky, and the Nobz are still pretty effective against anyone else. Hell, you could probably go battlewagon heavy with Burnaz, Nobz and tankbustaz and still do alright.
Blob squads lose to tankshock + flamers.
Mech is tough, but hey, this is 40k!
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Post by: Gornall
I just started playing in 5th Edition and from the beginning, every piece of advice I received as a SM player was to Mech up. I guess the new IG codex has really kicked this into overdrive. If you're getting outmanuevered by IG, then something's wrong. 
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Post by: Khornatedemon
whitedragon wrote:Mech orks would rule if you play that Deff Rollaz affect vehicles. Biker Nobz and lootaz also seem like a solid counter to mechanized, since the nobz can multicharge the crap outta stuff and are pretty resilient. Of course, if the mech player is bringing a PBS, forget it. The Mech Marine army may not be so lucky, and the Nobz are still pretty effective against anyone else. Hell, you could probably go battlewagon heavy with Burnaz, Nobz and tankbustaz and still do alright.
Blob squads lose to tankshock + flamers.
Mech is tough, but hey, this is 40k!
I agree on the deff rollas. But most places rule that they dont though, which sucks, else I'd be playing orks. Lootas can be a pain if you dont pack any long range anti-infantry. Nobz can get whittled down by meltas and then charged by th/ ss terminators in marine lists, or at least thats how i deal with them. Alternatively hitting nobz, especially of the foot slogging variety, with multiple heavy flamers in a single turn will put some hurt on them. I know I've wiped out smaller nob biker squads by hitting them with 5 twin-linked heavy flamers in a single turn. Not likely to always happen but it can. Especially when they are on speeders that block their movement and are only hit on a 6 in CC
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Post by: Danny Internets
blob squads with commisars can be a pain. Until you hit them with a flamer or 2.
No doubt the unit is a pain in the ass that few armies can get rid of in a single turn, but I don't think it's really going to win games. And, like you said, flamers ruin their day (especially when combined with tank shocking).
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Post by: Manstein
?
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Post by: Khornatedemon
Danny Internets wrote:blob squads with commisars can be a pain. Until you hit them with a flamer or 2.
No doubt the unit is a pain in the ass that few armies can get rid of in a single turn, but I don't think it's really going to win games. And, like you said, flamers ruin their day (especially when combined with tank shocking).
For sure. I played a game monday against someone using a blob squad of 30 guys with a commisar and 3 lascannons. I rolled my LRR + terminators w/ vulkan up to it, got out, hit them with vulkans heavy flamer but then sadly rolled snake eyes for my difficult terrain assault and stood there. I then absorbed a FRFSRF volley from them and lost 2 terminators. next turn the redeemer hit them with both flamestorms and vulkan finished them off with heavy flamer + assault.
Last tournament the guy i played in the second round had a similar set up. I hit them with a flamer and then let my terminators eat them up for 2 turns.
Now a few armies will have trouble with them. But I dont see most of the top level armies having said trouble.
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Post by: asugradinwa
In the leauge I play last week I drew a match aganst a deamon's player at 2250 points with a 3 nurgle deamon princes, 3 units of fiends, scarbrand, and 4 units of plaugebearers.
Of course I had left my thunderfire cannons out of this list.
Despite null zone, I'm still failing to do enough wounds!
T4 2 wound models with eternal warrior are NOT fun go up against.
Vindicators next time.... Vindicators!
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
I don't (and won't) play Mech IG. My foot list is deadly enough, and I don't even need meltas. Vanquishers and lascannons take care of any transports on turn 1 or 2. How effective is a meltagun when it's 72" away? 
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Post by: Jpr
Cheese Elemental wrote:I don't (and won't) play Mech IG. My foot list is deadly enough, and I don't even need meltas. Vanquishers and lascannons take care of any transports on turn 1 or 2. How effective is a meltagun when it's 72" away?
Not that great without Pask really..1/2 to hit, should pen, but cover saves and only 1/3 of actually destroying >_< (though immobilisng is handy). Vendettas however murder transports.
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Post by: ketsugami
Khornatedemon wrote:
For sure. I played a game monday against someone using a blob squad of 30 guys with a commisar and 3 lascannons. I rolled my LRR + terminators w/ vulkan up to it, got out, hit them with vulkans heavy flamer but then sadly rolled snake eyes for my difficult terrain assault and stood there. I then absorbed a FRFSRF volley from them and lost 2 terminators. next turn the redeemer hit them with both flamestorms and vulkan finished them off with heavy flamer + assault.
Putting lascannons in a blob squad is such a waste. There are ways to make the giant blob work, mainly with Straken. In a similar situation in a recent game, my 40-man blob absorbed the shooting casualties, charged, and rolled over a sqaud of assault termies, Vulkan, and a librarian in a turn or two.
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Post by: Sarigar
I'm surprised to see it took the IG codex for folks to take a good look at mechanized armies. Locally, this has been the trend for the past year or so.
Ironically, we don't have any regular IG players, so I really don't see IG lists. However, locally it's easy to see the following armies fully mechanized:
Orks
Codex Marines
Space Wolves
Black Templars
Eldar
Witch Hunters
Blood Angels
Dark Eldar
Last year, we had two players make it to the Ard Boyz finals with mechanized Witch Hunters and mech Blood Angels.
The change to the vehicle damage chart and potential vehicle cover saves was something we keyed on fast. Armies starting looking like 3rd edition armies IE: Rhino Rush armies.
Now, with all the mech armies floating around, the next areas of importance are:
Melta weapons
Flamer type weapons
rock hard assault units that can take on multiple units
I don't see this trend chaninging until 6th edition. There may be some key components in future codexes that can really put the hurt on mech armies, ala, IG codex, but mech will be here until key rules are altered.
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Post by: Hollismason
Mechanized has generally always been stronger than footslogging. I dunno where this new revelation comes from.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
Here are my thoughts on mech. First I have been playing mechanized BA since their PDF codex was released and that dates back to the tail end of 4th edition. Mech has always been potent, it's just better now in 5th edition due to the changes for the glancing/ penetration table. I don't see Stelek by any means as the main advocator for this style of play. I have a friend in my club who has been playing mechanized Deathguard since 3rd edition. Prior to the BA PDF codex I ran a mix of jump infantry and drop pods. After the new codex was released I immediately switched over to a mechanized list because I could see this would be a lot stronger due to the changes in the codex and rumors I heard regarding the 5th edition ruleset. I can talk about mech 24/7.
let's take a quick sample of the better mech lists out there now:
SM - no one seems to have had big success with these armies on a national basis. That said there are people such as myself and jawaballs who are consistently winning with our mech BA. Mech SM in general have access to all the tools needed... cheap rhinos, landraider(s), meltas, decent assault units.
Mech IG - it's still early but I think it's safe to say that mech IG will most likely be the most popular build for this race. They have access to some of the best mech... Cheap chimeras, all sorts of tanks and gunships. IG can pack lots of melta via veterans and CCS. They only lack in assault and I believe this is their fundamental Achilles' heel. Personally I see a lot of value in taking a big squad of Ogyrns but so far this unit does not pass the national litmus test as a worthy contender.
Mechdar - another strong list. They have of the tools and this has been discussed in great detail elsewhere. It's not that popular but it's strong nonetheless. I was thinking this army would be eschewed in the upcoming Ard Boyz but was proven wrong. On the flip side I do think raider spam is done for now. It's weak overall and suffers greatly due to the new TLOS.
Mech Orks - another strong list that has access to all the necessary tools except for meltas... Maybe they can get around the lack of meltas with their abundance of power klaws coupled with furious charge.
So what have I missed... SoBs are and have always been a strong mech list plus they have the tools. Have I missed anything? G Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh I forgot to mention mech Chaos SM... they might be the strongest in this department... They have access to all the tools plus the best troops, especially Plague Marines! G
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Post by: Jpr
Green Blow Fly wrote:Here are my thoughts on mech. First I have been playing mechanized BA since their PDF codex was released and that dates back to the tail end of 4th edition. Mech has always been potent, it's just better now in 5th edition due to the changes for the glancing/ penetration table. I don't see Stelek by any means as the main advocator for this style of play. I have a friend in my club who has been playing mechanized Deathguard since 3rd edition. Prior to the BA PDF codex I ran a mix of jump infantry and drop pods. After the new codex was released I immediately switched over to a mechanized list because I could see this would be a lot stronger due to the changes in the codex and rumors I heard regarding the 5th edition ruleset. I can talk about mech 24/7.
let's take a quick sample of the better mech lists out there now:
SM - no one seems to have had big success with these armies on a national basis. That said there are people such as myself and jawaballs who are consistently winning with our mech BA. Mech SM in general have access to all the tools needed... cheap rhinos, landraider(s), meltas, decent assault units.
Mech IG - it's still early but I think it's safe to say that mech IG will most likely be the most popular build for this race. They have access to some of the best mech... Cheap chimeras, all sorts of tanks and gunships. IG can pack lots of melta via veterans and CCS. They only lack in assault and I believe this is their fundamental Achilles' heel. Personally I see a lot of value in taking a big squad of Ogyrns but so far this unit does not pass the national litmus test as a worthy contender.
Mechdar - another strong list. They have of the tools and this has been discussed in great detail elsewhere. It's not that popular but it's strong nonetheless. I was thinking this army would be eschewed in the upcoming Ard Boyz but was proven wrong. On the flip side I do think raider spam is done for now. It's weak overall and suffers greatly due to the new TLOS.
Mech Orks - another strong list that has access to all the necessary tools except for meltas... Maybe they can get around the lack of meltas with their abundance of power klaws coupled with furious charge.
So what have I missed... SoBs are and have always been a strong mech list plus they have the tools. Have I missed anything? G
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh I forgot to mention mech Chaos SM... they might be the strongest in this department... They have access to all the tools plus the best troops, especially Plague Marines! G
IMO it depends on game size.
Mech SM are average at 1500-1850 because they cant get everything you want. Same as IG, as the points go up their firepower increases very rapidly. At 1500 IG are almost forced to pick 1 of the 2 best parts of the list imo, which is vendettas/valks vs the artillery, its difficult to fit significant enough points in both. But at 2500 you can have 6 valks/vendettas, 3 russes and 4 pieces of arty-thats some pretty intense firepower.
Mechdar cap out at around 1750-1850 for me. Enough to fill those heavy slots are filled with prisms or ravagers, 3 elites with fire dragons or wyches and HQ with uber combat units/special characters. I know that dark eldar cant really spend much more from 2000-2500 than add perhaps some reaver jetbikes and pointless upgrade.
Below 2k though Mechdar is pretty insane because most armies struggle to fit the lascannons in to take down 8 raiders and 3 ravagers for example at 1500.
Only thing you missed were Tau..a sort of dark horse for me, though only in the hands of a great player. Their tanks scale quite poorly, but the suits + broadsides are godly vs mech armies, pathfinders + kroot are amazing utility units. I wouldn't be surprised to see a list with 12+ crisis suits and 9 broadsides at 2500. If they go first and you didn't put everything in reserve you won't have any tanks left after 1-2 turns.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
Reserves is a very important factor that has helped mech a lot. If you go second against an SAFH army it does not hurt nearly as much, in fact it's usually better to go second.
Objective based missions mech rules, KP missions mech is not as strong but still solid. To me objective based games is all about getting on top of the objectives first. G
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Post by: imweasel
Daydream wrote:Mahu, you've hit all the reasons that I take my Nids to most tournaments these days. Outflanking stealers and TMCs have really gained a boost by the swap to melta. The hive mind in me giggles a little bit when I see an army reviewer say that melta is the only option in a list.
It's not melta's per se, but multi-melta taken in large numbers seasoned with heavy flamers sprinkled with lascannons.
I mean what do nids have as a reliable/dependable answer to a redeemer or assault termies in a crusader to take out the carni's? You might be able to take out one, but most likely not both. Not to mention the speeders running around armed with mm/ hf.
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
I think my horde CC Orks may actually be more viable now. Everyone around here is expecting to face mech lists, so they're going to be disappointed when they realise that meltaguns do squat to a mob of Slugga boyz.
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Post by: Hollismason
People misunderstand the concept behind mech and assume placing one or two squads in transports make a mechanized list. A mechanized list is a majority in excess of armour.
Its the overwhelming abundance of armour that prevents and nullifies the opposing armies ability to deal with it to the point of being just completely ineffective. If you have 15 vehicles and they have 6 lascannons then welp thats game. You put so much out there on the field that your opponent is castrated and can only fingerdiddle you.
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Post by: Daydream
imweasel wrote:Daydream wrote:Mahu, you've hit all the reasons that I take my Nids to most tournaments these days. Outflanking stealers and TMCs have really gained a boost by the swap to melta. The hive mind in me giggles a little bit when I see an army reviewer say that melta is the only option in a list.
It's not melta's per se, but multi-melta taken in large numbers seasoned with heavy flamers sprinkled with lascannons.
I mean what do nids have as a reliable/dependable answer to a redeemer or assault termies in a crusader to take out the carni's? You might be able to take out one, but most likely not both. Not to mention the speeders running around armed with mm/ hf.
I think the major point folks are missing is the fact that a good nid player will be advancing 2 Tyrants and guard with a couple of units of gaunts in front of them while the carnifexes come in the 2nd wave. Move up to shoot the fexes (who are shooting the barbed stranglers and venom cannons) and the hive tyrants get you. Shoot the hive tyrants and they get a 4+ cover save. 2 x 10 T6 wounds with a 4+ cover save is very tough to kill. You could shoot the gaunts first, but it is suprisingly difficult to kill 32 gaunts (who may also have a cover save) and possibly another unit behind them in one turn. And every turn you don't shoot the meltaguns is one turn the tyranid player advances on the objective unmolested.
I don't expect the nids to outright destroy many vehicles, which is why they struggle in KP missions, but getting to an objective and holding it vs. mech has been pretty easy for me.
Shooting at AV14 is a waste of time, the venom cannon shots are better spent on speeders, chimeras w/ command squads, valkyries, etc to suppress fire. If a land raider wants to drive into the middle of my army and disembark terminators, I'm all for it. Sure I'll lose a carnifex or two, but I don't expect the land raider to last long, and the Tyrants will take care of the terminators (assuming you have lash whips on the guard, which I do).
The game is by no means easy for the tyranid player, but I see the matchup as being even, rather than in favor of the Mechanized player.
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Post by: Hollismason
The army that has the most trouble is Necrons really its just not very competitive regardless. Heavy Destroyers are Heavy Support and so are Monoliths so at max you could have 9 STR9 shots.
I've never seen mechanized not steamroll Necrons.
Orks as well to a degree AV14 is difficult. Shock attack maybe thats about it though. Sure you have STR9 with Powerclaw but that is it.
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Post by: Toxxic
Hollismason wrote:
Sure you have STR9 with Powerclaw but that is it.
That's all I 've needed to bust up vehicles.
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Post by: thehod
Mahu wrote:There is a growing shift in the 40k Metagame that has started to make me ponder certain ideas.
Ever since the Guard hit the tables, people have been going more and more mechanized (not that this wasn't a trend to begin with). And why wouldn't you? Units transported tend to cost as much or less then Jump Infantry and are usually troops to boot. With every Guard player putting out 4 or 5 Large "I kill you" templates. With Lash and PBSs totally screwing your units. There is almost no reason to ever field any models that don't have at least a modicum of armored protection. Even Orks are more leaning towards Battlwagons as their previous super unit. Nob Bikerz, are no longer as reliable.
You are also seeing armies reacting to this. Taking meltas and multimeltas in units. Fielding more short ranged guaranteed tank killing units. IG tending to field str. 10 templates over the traditional options, every SM army is a Vulkan list.
So essentially, where 40k 4th Edition was all about the gearing to kill MEQs by stuffing as many low AP shots into a list, 40k 5th Edition in about putting as many tank busting units in a list as possible.
However I see a dark side to this. Armies like Orks and Tyranids can literally put so many bodies on the table, that they can easily overwhelm a traditional army by sheer weight of numbers.
Stelek has been saying that for months. Nothing new
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Post by: freddieyu1
Danny Internets wrote:In 5e, it's all about massed blobs of platoon guard, accompanied by commissars, and outflanking Demolishers or Devil Dogs, some units are finally seeing the light of day(psykers, for the most part) or for some people(like myself) it's all about using Veterans, with Grenadiers and F.Sentries, where their cover is better than their armor and Going To Ground is extremely viable (yaayy, TEQ cover saves) with GBitF. Orders have changed guard ENTIRELY, for the better if I must say. it makes the game more interesting, and more fun.
5th edition IG is definitely not about massed blobs of platoon guard, commissars, OR outflanking.
Yeah there are many more looks to the new IG dex than that....
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Post by: bigtmac68
Cheese Elemental wrote:I think my horde CC Orks may actually be more viable now. Everyone around here is expecting to face mech lists, so they're going to be disappointed when they realise that meltaguns do squat to a mob of Slugga boyz.
No but my 4 big pie plates, 18 Flamers/Hvy Flamers, 4 plasma cannons and up to 200 shots per turn of infantry weapons do quite well.
There are just too many guns and flamer templates out there for most mech armies to fear horde orks.
Oh, and the PBS devastates horde orks as well.
Just because your mech, does not mean you cant deal with hordes.
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Post by: Danny Internets
bigtmac68 wrote:
No but my 4 big pie plates, 18 Flamers/Hvy Flamers, 4 plasma cannons and up to 200 shots per turn of infantry weapons do quite well.
There are just too many guns and flamer templates out there for most mech armies to fear horde orks.
Oh, and the PBS devastates horde orks as well.
Just because your mech, does not mean you cant deal with hordes.
Heh, nevermind all that. All you need to do is field a Manticore.
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Post by: Hollismason
It's actually perfectly reasonable and makes sense that most troops would have transports anyway. I just don't see a Space Marine Commander going ; yeah guys I need you to walk. Oh this stuff this stuff isnt for you yeah sorry.
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Post by: Cryonicleech
I agree with the OP.
The amount of mech armies is astounding.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
Kenny and I have been living this for years. Get off our coat tails. Thanks!
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thehod wrote:Mahu wrote:There is a growing shift in the 40k Metagame that has started to make me ponder certain ideas.
Ever since the Guard hit the tables, people have been going more and more mechanized (not that this wasn't a trend to begin with). And why wouldn't you? Units transported tend to cost as much or less then Jump Infantry and are usually troops to boot. With every Guard player putting out 4 or 5 Large "I kill you" templates. With Lash and PBSs totally screwing your units. There is almost no reason to ever field any models that don't have at least a modicum of armored protection. Even Orks are more leaning towards Battlwagons as their previous super unit. Nob Bikerz, are no longer as reliable.
You are also seeing armies reacting to this. Taking meltas and multimeltas in units. Fielding more short ranged guaranteed tank killing units. IG tending to field str. 10 templates over the traditional options, every SM army is a Vulkan list.
So essentially, where 40k 4th Edition was all about the gearing to kill MEQs by stuffing as many low AP shots into a list, 40k 5th Edition in about putting as many tank busting units in a list as possible.
However I see a dark side to this. Armies like Orks and Tyranids can literally put so many bodies on the table, that they can easily overwhelm a traditional army by sheer weight of numbers.
Stelek has been saying that for months. Nothing new
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Post by: Khornatedemon
Green Blow Fly wrote:Kenny and I have been living this for years. Get off our coat tails. Thanks!
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thehod wrote:Mahu wrote:There is a growing shift in the 40k Metagame that has started to make me ponder certain ideas.
Ever since the Guard hit the tables, people have been going more and more mechanized (not that this wasn't a trend to begin with). And why wouldn't you? Units transported tend to cost as much or less then Jump Infantry and are usually troops to boot. With every Guard player putting out 4 or 5 Large "I kill you" templates. With Lash and PBSs totally screwing your units. There is almost no reason to ever field any models that don't have at least a modicum of armored protection. Even Orks are more leaning towards Battlwagons as their previous super unit. Nob Bikerz, are no longer as reliable.
You are also seeing armies reacting to this. Taking meltas and multimeltas in units. Fielding more short ranged guaranteed tank killing units. IG tending to field str. 10 templates over the traditional options, every SM army is a Vulkan list.
So essentially, where 40k 4th Edition was all about the gearing to kill MEQs by stuffing as many low AP shots into a list, 40k 5th Edition in about putting as many tank busting units in a list as possible.
However I see a dark side to this. Armies like Orks and Tyranids can literally put so many bodies on the table, that they can easily overwhelm a traditional army by sheer weight of numbers.
Stelek has been saying that for months. Nothing new
Umm yeah I've been running mech marines since 3rd edition. When everyone ran them. Whats old is new again.
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Post by: bigtmac68
I think what is making so many people react is how it this trend that started with small groups of players who saw what was coming has now expanded to the metagame as a whole.
So whats new is not that Mech rocks in 5th. Whats new is that the majority has finally come to that realization.
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Post by: dietrich
Khornatedemon wrote:Umm yeah I've been running mech marines since 3rd edition. When everyone ran them. Whats old is new again.
40k is like fashion, where what was once fashionable, became un-fashionable, and then becomes cool retro. Don't get rid of models that aren't effective, because by next edition, they will be again.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
Bell bottoms and afros will never be en vogue again.
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Post by: deFl0
I think saying infantry rush is dead is short sighted.
In a non KP mission you are going to have a really tough time dealing with 250 bodies no matter what you play.
In the same way Mech ignores basic weapons; all cheap infantry ignores hvy weapons.
At 1850 you can deploy 250 bodies with hvy weapons and specials and put less than 10 Kps on the table if you want.
If that doesn't scare you... It should.
Why don't you see it? Well. Have You have painted 250 guard?
Pete
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Post by: Kirasu
The problem with 250 guardsmen is three fold
A) You wont finish a game at a tournament.. You know this, and it makes you look like you're just trying to ruin someones score
B) Tank shock now destroys you.. Especially wave serpents with star engines (Move 36" first turn then 24" in the movement phase to tank shock the entire army like 5x)
C) Very immobile and unable to really capture objectives well
I think it should be a rule that if you're not a fast playing player you shouldnt be allowed to use any horde army
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Post by: Warmaster
Khornatedemon wrote:Green Blow Fly wrote:Kenny and I have been living this for years. Get off our coat tails. Thanks!
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Umm yeah I've been running mech marines since 3rd edition. When everyone ran them. Whats old is new again.
Oh yeah, well I can remember bunkering my 3 man chaos vet squads inside of land raiders, back when you could shoot out of land raiders, during 2nd edition.
Truthfully I think that people without a ton of readily available disposable catch are starting to catch up to those of us that can just go buy all the transports we need. Plus the fact that people take time to paint stuff up and get it ready for the table.
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Post by: Khornatedemon
Warmaster wrote:Khornatedemon wrote:Green Blow Fly wrote:Kenny and I have been living this for years. Get off our coat tails. Thanks!
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Umm yeah I've been running mech marines since 3rd edition. When everyone ran them. Whats old is new again.
Oh yeah, well I can remember bunkering my 3 man chaos vet squads inside of land raiders, back when you could shoot out of land raiders, during 2nd edition.
Truthfully I think that people without a ton of readily available disposable catch are starting to catch up to those of us that can just go buy all the transports we need. Plus the fact that people take time to paint stuff up and get it ready for the table.
hehe the best thing is I turned my 3rd ed. army into a 5th ed. one by only buying a few speeders and meltagun and flamer bits. And a vulkan conversion. Bam, instant 5th list. Automatically Appended Next Post: deFl0 wrote:I think saying infantry rush is dead is short sighted.
In a non KP mission you are going to have a really tough time dealing with 250 bodies no matter what you play.
In the same way Mech ignores basic weapons; all cheap infantry ignores hvy weapons.
At 1850 you can deploy 250 bodies with hvy weapons and specials and put less than 10 Kps on the table if you want.
If that doesn't scare you... It should.
Why don't you see it? Well. Have You have painted 250 guard?
Pete
Tank shock + flamers and assaults hurt infantry spam guard a lot. Most of the mech lists being discussed here have a good amount of flamers in addition to their melta's. They will also be much more maneuverable in objective based games.
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Post by: deFl0
Kirasu wrote:The problem with 250 guardsmen is three fold
A) You wont finish a game at a tournament.. You know this, and it makes you look like you're just trying to ruin someones score
B) Tank shock now destroys you.. Especially wave serpents with star engines (Move 36" first turn then 24" in the movement phase to tank shock the entire army like 5x)
C) Very immobile and unable to really capture objectives well
I think it should be a rule that if you're not a fast playing player you shouldnt be allowed to use any horde army
A) True an experienced player, but that's doesn't invalidate the strength of the army build. Plus there are ways to speed things up. I run into 200+ ork list at top tourny play and the good guys have there dice all pre separated, and color coordinated, and often on magnetized movement trays. Plus you tend to get top comp for lists like this which makes up for the loss in massacres.
B) There is a lot of way to combat this... Add a touch of Sister of battle flavor here and there and you are stubborn LD 9 or 10 across the entire army. Plus most gun lines will blob squads to make there orders more efficient, thus they will have a commisar. If you fail a LD, he just gacks serg or rolls on a ld 9.
C) It largely doesn't matter in most GW tourny ('ard boyz excluded). They tend to follow standard missions with a twist. The mission that tends to get this list is when you have to defend your objective AND take theirs for a massacre. Usually you just blast the crap out of there troops and then sit on your objective with 200 dudes that are stubborn ld 9. As for Kill points, you are largely blob squads. As for 5 tokens down the center... Well you only have to walk 12"...
Pete
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Post by: dietrich
Green Blow Fly wrote:Bell bottoms and afros will never be en vogue again.
OK, some fashions, just like some GW models (Captain Cortez!) should die a quick death and never return.
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Post by: Drummerboy
I played all through 3rd edition with mech blood angels and speed freaks. I played constantly and I bet I can count on one hand the number of times I lost with my speed freaks. I haven't played a lot since then, but I've always thought it was weird that more people didn't play this way.
The only army I've consistently lost with is my Nids and I still don't know what I'm doing wrong with them. I guess I need battlewagons for my genestealers...lol
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Post by: Warmaster
Kirasu wrote:The problem with 250 guardsmen is three fold
A) You wont finish a game at a tournament.. You know this, and it makes you look like you're just trying to ruin someones score
B) Tank shock now destroys you.. Especially wave serpents with star engines (Move 36" first turn then 24" in the movement phase to tank shock the entire army like 5x)
C) Very immobile and unable to really capture objectives well
I think it should be a rule that if you're not a fast playing player you shouldnt be allowed to use any horde army
Actually I would like to add in another problem, probably the biggest problem. Which would be painting 250 guardsman. I think that might actually be worse than painting 200 orks! 
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
Mechanized murder/mayhem is due to shooting now, which is quite funny since it used to be due to charging out of moving rhinos.
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Post by: gorgon
deFl0 wrote:I think saying infantry rush is dead is short sighted.
In a non KP mission you are going to have a really tough time dealing with 250 bodies no matter what you play.
In the same way Mech ignores basic weapons; all cheap infantry ignores hvy weapons.
At 1850 you can deploy 250 bodies with hvy weapons and specials and put less than 10 Kps on the table if you want.
If that doesn't scare you... It should.
Why don't you see it? Well. Have You have painted 250 guard?
Pete
*IF* the new Tyranid codex makes old-school ginormous hordes viable again (and I have a feeling that will be the designers' approach), I've got the painted models and will definitely give it a try at tournies. Would be interesting to see how it does as counter-meta. In the meantime, I'm definitely meching up my GCult/Orks.
Regarding time constraints, movement/deployment trays work, but a lot of it is just learning to play fast. My past experience with Tyranid hordes is that I'm not the one holding the game up. I've honestly had more people intentionally stall against me knowing it's the later turns when Tyranids do most of their damage.
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Post by: Warboss Lockjaw
Are really able to say anything is the current dominant force?
Mech armies are better now, IMO as they should have been.
But for armies with 4 LR out there, a few meltas and their list is crippled.
For armies with rhino spam, pretty much any weapon can render these things a one shot use, they are just not total death traps anymore.
wave serpents are still overpriced and a little fragile, but they are ok, at leas they are fast.
IG tank hords< honestly, does anyone even play IG? When a IG player comes to the table with 5+ tanks at 1500 points, its pretty much over for him, no matter what army play, no matter what tanks he has. So many points in stuff that shoots once then gets killed in one shot!
And do most people play with one single tree as terrain? If you use the recommended amount and 5th ed style of terrain GW suggests, even Tyranids MCs should be hard as ever to drop. plus even out in the open you realize it takes 3+ vendettas to drop a single 113 point carnifex in a turn of shooting? And that nids bring usually 5+ to the table!
Funny thing is, in 5th ed i have seen a new beast, not Mech armies, and not MC spam.
I have seen the pronounced amount of crappy generals. Since some (IMO most) of the power builds went away and many of the cheezors rules went the way of the dodo when 5th came out, with fewer now than ever before, I have seen just how crappy most players are.
mech lists seem to just be allowing many players to make up for their poor deployment choices and to get their units where they need to be.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
I agree with you. Over generalization seems to be in this decade.
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Post by: bigtmac68
Warboss Lockjaw wrote:
IG tank hords< honestly, does anyone even play IG? When a IG player comes to the table with 5+ tanks at 1500 points, its pretty much over for him, no matter what army play, no matter what tanks he has. So many points in stuff that shoots once then gets killed in one shot!
No one has been talking about Tank Horde, Mech does not mean Armored Company. And yes pretty obviously there are a lot of people who play IG at the moment. Sure its the new FAD and in a year it will be back to die hards like me when the next three marine codexs come out. But a statement like that really does not help your credibility.
Warboss Lockjaw wrote:And do most people play with one single tree as terrain? If you use the recommended amount and 5th ed style of terrain GW suggests, even Tyranids MCs should be hard as ever to drop. plus even out in the open you realize it takes 3+ vendettas to drop a single 113 point carnifex in a turn of shooting? And that nids bring usually 5+ to the table!
Funny thing is, in 5th ed i have seen a new beast, not Mech armies, and not MC spam.
I have seen the pronounced amount of crappy generals. Since some (IMO most) of the power builds went away and many of the cheezors rules went the way of the dodo when 5th came out, with fewer now than ever before, I have seen just how crappy most players are.
mech lists seem to just be allowing many players to make up for their poor deployment choices and to get their units where they need to be.
Ummm, yeah Im aware of what a Carnifex is and how nidzilla works. As do most people on the board. Insulting peoples intelligence is not a good way to make a point. I dont know if your deliberately trolling with this or if you really do belive that your tactical acumen is so much better than the rest of us.
For the sake of your local gaming environment I sincerely hope it is the former.
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Post by: Hollismason
Can't wait for 8 track to come back.
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Post by: Lorek
Keep it on-topic, Hollismason.
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Post by: orchewer
Have people found any success playing part-mech and part-foot slogging in their armies?
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Post by: Iago
I have, with black templars.
huge 20 man squads that slog. And then units in LRC as the mechanized element
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Post by: sourclams
Orks do it all the time. IG is the only hard counter with cover ignoring blasts and PBS.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
What about Nidz with dakka fexes? What about mech SM or Lash spam? Or daemonic hordes? There are plenty of armies that can counter horde orks.
G
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Post by: sourclams
1. There are no vehicles in the Tyranid codex. You must have the 2013 version.
2. Nobody's even talking about horde Orks.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
I am just listing armies that can beat orks, doesn't necessarily have to be mechanized. You have a tendency to over generalize and go OT when all else fails it seems.
G
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Post by: sourclams
orchewer wrote:Have people found any success playing part-mech and part-foot slogging in their armies?
My comments are in response to this quote. Try to stay on topic.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
Nice try at the old switcheroo.
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
I figure that Mech vets with lascannons and plasma guns, maybe with Bastonne, would make really good objective holders. They can pillbox in their Chimera and can hold off MEQs and vehicles until the footsloggers move up.
Bastonne would be great because of his ability to issue orders. With BiD! he can help the squad fend off heavy vehicles and MCs. Harker may also be an option if you don't want Chimeras because he gives Infiltrate and Stealth and comes packing a Relentless heavy bolter.
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Post by: Lord Solar Plexus
Mahu wrote:There is a growing shift in the 40k Metagame that has started to make me ponder certain ideas.
Ever since the Guard hit the tables, people have been going more and more mechanized (not that this wasn't a trend to begin with). And why wouldn't you?
You wouldn't do it when the so-called "metagame" comes around again and your Mech list faces down the barrels of more autocannon, twin-linked autocannon, ordered autocannon, hidden, covered, painted and converted autocannon than is funny.
A Mech list without mobility is not going to impress anyone.
Of course, Chimeras do not only transport but help increase the resilience of Guardsmen. I am not sure whether those 65 points spent on another squad might not increase resilience just as much though.
Shotgun wrote:Orks and bugs will still be hard pressed to overwhelm mech gaurd. 65 points gets you 9 36" shots, and you still can get a HB from the unit -in- the transport. That's alot of dakka.
Only until you do the math. It'll kill about 2 Orks behind a KFF. Orks will be upon you in 3 turns, and that is marching up the field.
ifyouseekamy wrote:As an IG player who started a few months before the 5E dex, even I can tell how the meta has changed.
In 4e, Guard were about bringing massed infantry platoons and only using up the minimum 2 troops choices
Really? I thought people used lots of Vets back then?
In 5e, it's all about massed blobs of platoon guard,
Can't say I agree with you on orders but how is blobbed platoon guard an indication or proof of a trend to mechanize?
Khornatedemon wrote:
Orks and nids really dont have the answer to mech. Stealers and the one winged tyrant you can take dont do squat against a competent player. Most mech armies pack enough melta's, flamers, and bolters to counter both of those. I was playing nids at the start of 5th and started getting spanked by mech armies, especially those of the vulkan and lash variety. Orks can kill transports in CC sure, but unless they are packing boarding planks and vehicles once they do that they are exposed. I can make a wall of rhinos that pretty much makes sure your never able to completely surround my tanks and once you pop them your eating bolters and flamers, and orks dont like flamers.
I don't see why that would even be an issue. That wall of Rhinos means a multi-charge on all of them with possibly just a single mob. Mechanized is AV 10 (barring Land Raider spam), and that means you better stay out of charge range. Staying out of charge range means your opponent controls where you can safely go, and that isn't anywhere near the objectives. Without your transports, you won't get there, defeating one of the purposes of Mech. Making a wall and approaching is often hindered by terrain or damage.
Even if you fire all those flamers and bolters afterwards, I don't see what good that would do as long as the other mobs sit snugly on their objectives. And you're probably only firing once.
bigtmac68 wrote:Cheese Elemental wrote:I think my horde CC Orks may actually be more viable now. Everyone around here is expecting to face mech lists, so they're going to be disappointed when they realise that meltaguns do squat to a mob of Slugga boyz.
No but my 4 big pie plates, 18 Flamers/Hvy Flamers, 4 plasma cannons and up to 200 shots per turn of infantry weapons do quite well.
In 2500 points, perhaps. In games below 2k, it will be much more difficult to pack enough of everything.
sourclams wrote:
2. Nobody's even talking about horde Orks.
Yes, we are. I just replied to some remarks about them.
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Post by: dumplingman
Like the rest of you have been saying I agree that Mech is the current trend in 5th. On the other hand I think the reason the meta game is getting more skewed towards this type of playing is directly related to codex release dates and the context of the dexs. Armies with very competitive mech lists been the first ones to come out. So everyone is jumping on the bandweapon. Furthermore, the IG is the first of a whole new slew of dexs which are designed to be fully functional in apoc/planet strike games. (IMO) The inclusion of squadrons for tanks and valks and such allows them to integrate into these types of games easier. Unfortunately for those of us who play in normal 40k it allows for great levels of exploitation. IG gets 9 tanks where everyone else gets a max of 3. Also the armies that are traditionally good at killing mech haven't been updated yet. Once armies like necrons, nids, eldar and dark eldar are redone, I think things will change again hopefully to a more balanced metagame.
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Post by: Caffran9
Horde CC Orks are probably not the answer to mech Guard. My 1750 list rocks 10 flamer templates, 10 plasma cannons, a big blast ignoring cover, 2 more fast moving big blasts, and a wall of armor to hide and protect all of it.
I'm a big fan of my opponent putting a horde army of any kind of the table across from me.
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Post by: dumplingman
Caffran don't forget about the trusty manticore a mech list's answer to all things horde related!
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Post by: dietrich
Lash and PSB are part of the reason that mech is popular right now.
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Post by: whitedragon
dietrich wrote:Lash and PSB are part of the reason that mech is popular right now.
The other part is how resilient vehicles are in the 5th edition rules, and the fewer penalties for passengers embarked. For example, they are no longer automatically "pinned" when their vehicle is destroyed. This is huge, because in CC, a unit is not locked after combat with a vehicle. If the attackers destroy a vehicle, the passengers bail out and blaze away at the attackers, who can do nothing but take it in the face.
Armies that rely on only CC to destroy vehicles have a tough time with this.
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Post by: Frazzled
This thread has been reported. Lets avoid personal attacks and stay to the subject please gents and ladies.
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Post by: sourclams
Lord Solar Plexus wrote:sourclams wrote:
2. Nobody's even talking about horde Orks.
Yes, we are. I just replied to some remarks about them.
Your replies are at least 1 codex behind the times. Horde Orks get squashed by Mech Guard. There's simply far too many templates for a footslogging CC horde to deal with, and the PBS simply nails the coffin shut.
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Post by: crazypsyko666
I wonder if this means seeing more forgeworld titans, (warhounds of course.) I might even invest in one, maybe put on a double barreled turbo laser and a plasma blastgun. i mean, is that legal in a non-apocalypse game? it sure as hell seems worth the 640 pts.
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Post by: Alpharius
crazypsyko666 wrote:I wonder if this means seeing more forgeworld titans, (warhounds of course.) I might even invest in one, maybe put on a double barreled turbo laser and a plasma blastgun. i mean, is that legal in a non-apocalypse game? it sure as hell seems worth the 640 pts.
In a word: NO!
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Post by: Pipboy101
Cheese Elemental wrote:I think my horde CC Orks may actually be more viable now. Everyone around here is expecting to face mech lists, so they're going to be disappointed when they realise that meltaguns do squat to a mob of Slugga boyz.
I have to agree, a mech list facing a 180 ork boyz list with nob bikers and stormboyz dropping in the rear areas denies transport movement. Tank shocking a 30 Boyz mob with another 30 Boyz mob near is dumb since the unit moves out of the way and then assaults. Even if the transport moved full the number of attacks will do something if not destroy the transport. 180 Ork infantry rush supported by Stormboyz and Nob Bikers and the Profit leading will crush most mech and anti-mech lists. IG Pie plates of death, there is only so much they can do in two turns and if you stormboyz and nob bikers they will have to make the choice to target the nobz and stormboys which will chew threw most armor while 180 orks charge up the front with a sure thing second round 12 inch movement.
If all else fails throw bodies at the situation.
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Post by: Caffran9
Good mech lists these days have all the answers to horde armies built into them by nature. Mech IG has boat loads of blast weapons, cover ignoring blasts, and flamer templates. Mech marines (Vulkan especially) have lots of flamer templates and decent resilience in CC. Mech Eldar brings a fair few high ROF weapons, as well as very resilient and fast moving jetcouncils that boast lots of attacks and heavy flamer templates. Mech Chaos functions much in the same way as Mech Marines, except it also gets Lash. All of these lists have anti-horde built into them simply by being what they are.
Horde armies are hard pressed for answers to the majority of this.
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Post by: crazypsyko666
Alpharius wrote:crazypsyko666 wrote:I wonder if this means seeing more forgeworld titans, (warhounds of course.) I might even invest in one, maybe put on a double barreled turbo laser and a plasma blastgun. i mean, is that legal in a non-apocalypse game? it sure as hell seems worth the 640 pts.
In a word: NO!
would it be stupid to say they should allow ONE warhound in smaller games? 
(counting as multiple heavy weapons choices)
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Post by: Mahu
The problem with Horde anything in the current Metagame is the amount of ignore cover templates that permeate the game now.
Assault Marines with Jump Packs used to be viable before the IG Dex. I had reasonably good success with using Rhinos and Land Raiders to shield them and their speed meant I could move them forward with the rest of the army and charge when needed.
First game I played against the new Guard a Colussus shell landed on target on that unit on turn two and wiped all but 2 off the table. Assault Marines went from a mildly competitive option to a "fun" only option. Had the same experience with Devestators.
You just can't deny the massive amount of protection a relatively cheap tank provides.
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Post by: Pipboy101
Yes, the number of templates and pie plates that ignore cover saves is difficult ot over come. However the issue is that they must either concentrate the shots on wiping out a unit or spread the damage out. But once you kill one unit another one comes right behind it and once you have them in CC that is where most Mech falls apart. Plus, most forget that massed infantry supported by hard hitting fast moving CC units such as Nob Bikers then the mob has a chance to cross the board.
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Post by: Alerian
Pipboy101 wrote:Yes, the number of templates and pie plates that ignore cover saves is difficult ot over come. However the issue is that they must either concentrate the shots on wiping out a unit or spread the damage out. But once you kill one unit another one comes right behind it and once you have them in CC that is where most Mech falls apart. Plus, most forget that massed infantry supported by hard hitting fast moving CC units such as Nob Bikers then the mob has a chance to cross the board.
Nob bikers are a thing of the past against IG.
PBS + a few lascannon shots or a pie plate or 2 will instakill 3 nobs and force a LD check at 2....say goodbye nobs and all their points.
Every Chimera now has a free Heavy Flamer built in, so large boys mobs are no problem either...especially if the passengers have a one or more template weapons, as well.
Storm boys will be able to pop one tank, then they die with their lousy save, since they will be stuck out in the open.
Horde orks really don't have a good answer to the new IG dex.
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Post by: Mars.Techpriest
crazypsyko666 wrote:Alpharius wrote:crazypsyko666 wrote:I wonder if this means seeing more forgeworld titans, (warhounds of course.) I might even invest in one, maybe put on a double barreled turbo laser and a plasma blastgun. i mean, is that legal in a non-apocalypse game? it sure as hell seems worth the 640 pts.
In a word: NO!
would it be stupid to say they should allow ONE warhound in smaller games?
(counting as multiple heavy weapons choices)
Base Forge World rules allow you to take one of their super-heavies as a 'second detachment' which reqires an army of 2000pts first. Which is 2640pt minimum, which is almost apoc anyway.
Of course, if your playing a kill-the-titan game, you can do whatever you and your opponent want.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
You should run a squad of jump infantry with a meltagun and deep strike beside the Colussus.
G
Mahu wrote:The problem with Horde anything in the current Metagame is the amount of ignore cover templates that permeate the game now.
Assault Marines with Jump Packs used to be viable before the IG Dex. I had reasonably good success with using Rhinos and Land Raiders to shield them and their speed meant I could move them forward with the rest of the army and charge when needed.
First game I played against the new Guard a Colussus shell landed on target on that unit on turn two and wiped all but 2 off the table. Assault Marines went from a mildly competitive option to a "fun" only option. Had the same experience with Devestators.
You just can't deny the massive amount of protection a relatively cheap tank provides.
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Post by: Danny Internets
Green Blow Fly wrote:You should run a squad of jump infantry with a meltagun and deep strike beside the Colussus.
G
The Colossus is going in the corner most of the time and any respectable player will have enough brains to castle it and not let you get in melta range, even if you land on target. And if he has Mystics, well, that squad is as good as dead.
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Post by: EzeKK
Duh?
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Post by: crazypsyko666
Mars.Techpriest wrote:crazypsyko666 wrote:Alpharius wrote:crazypsyko666 wrote:I wonder if this means seeing more forgeworld titans, (warhounds of course.) I might even invest in one, maybe put on a double barreled turbo laser and a plasma blastgun. i mean, is that legal in a non-apocalypse game? it sure as hell seems worth the 640 pts.
In a word: NO!
would it be stupid to say they should allow ONE warhound in smaller games?
(counting as multiple heavy weapons choices)
Base Forge World rules allow you to take one of their super-heavies as a 'second detachment' which reqires an army of 2000pts first. Which is 2640pt minimum, which is almost apoc anyway.
Of course, if your playing a kill-the-titan game, you can do whatever you and your opponent want.
yeah, but that's kinda the problem i have with it. if it could be used in smaller games, say.... 1500 point games NOT adding their cost into the mix, so NOT a 2140 point game, and count as multiple heavy weapons options, it would be at least a somewhat valid alternative to having a million tanks. and in smaller games, the minimum range would balance it out considerably due to having less board space, (possibly, I've never tried it, mostly speculation.)
I mean, at the very worst it'll become the turret from hell, but on a medium sized board it could have some useful applications without being overpowering considering the point values. that's almost three land raiders. maybe they add an extra point charge for having it in an army that's less than 2000 points? this is all just sort of speculation, but it could add variety to the game, and i've always liked the idea of one titan instead of massive amounts of tanks.
Also: wouldn't this just be the perfect setup for them to make an adeptus mechanicus army? lol
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Post by: Mahu
You should run a squad of jump infantry with a meltagun and deep strike beside the Colussus.
Since I play Codex Marines now (repainting to Salamanders), that option is not available to me. Land Speeders are much better at that and have a longer effective range.
I did Deepstrike Assault Marines against a Colussus touting IG army, and was able to take out the tank between Bolt Pistols and Krak Grenade charging, but throwing 200+ points at a unit that is considerable less is a waste.
Yes, the number of templates and pie plates that ignore cover saves is difficult ot over come. However the issue is that they must either concentrate the shots on wiping out a unit or spread the damage out. But once you kill one unit another one comes right behind it and once you have them in CC that is where most Mech falls apart. Plus, most forget that massed infantry supported by hard hitting fast moving CC units such as Nob Bikers then the mob has a chance to cross the board.
As has been mentioned, IG killed the Nob Bikerz, similar to how TV killed the Radio star. 
To me, if I trying to make a "horde" of Orks competitive, it would be 4 squads of 30 boyz, 2 Battlewagons filled with Nobz, a Warboss, and a KFF, and Snikrot leading Orks. You can use the Battlewagons to detract firepower from your troops, as the IG (or other armies for that matter) would have to deal with them or suffer the consequences. Your Boyz squads are large enough to require massed casualties before being able to suffer from PBSs (as if they are not dropping their own template instead) and you should have enough units to be protected against Lash effecting your whole army. You win or loose based of the turn Snikrot shows up. But that army is dead if it doesn't have half of it in CC by turn 3.
The reason I posted this thread was to spark the conversation. Even a year later you still have a lot of players suffering from 4th edition and even if IG didn't create the preponderance of Mech, they nailed the coffin in the other options.
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Post by: Iago
Another benefit of MEQ armies is the time required to play them. In a tournament setting were every minute counts, and every turn for that matter, it is better to have less models to move, more speed and get the game done in the full allotment of turns. Horde is powerfull, but I could only see it being played well if you can get through moving 150+ models every turn and get the game done in 2 hrs.
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Post by: GeneralRetreat
I haven't done it myself yet, but I imagine Mechanized forces are much quicker to play at tournaments, too.
My armies have been heavily mechanized since I had the means to get the models (I LOVED the Razorback + Combat Squad box, they need to keep that one in stock).
I think the move to Mech is nothing new, just more feasable now. They came out with some good box sets to get people discounted vehicle models ($40 a Rhino has to be prohibitive to some folks). I think anyone who knows anything about warfare knows that no modern military force, much less futuristic, would rely on marching, but be mounted for rapid deployment and protection.
I think that 4th edition was a bit skewed against vehicles thanks to the damage tables and cost of even simple transports. In game terms, it didn't make sense to buy transports, but in common sense terms, it didn't make sense to not have them.
I remember thinking to myself (as a player coming to the game mid-4th) "Wow, these are some stupid Marines, they fly all the way across the galaxy to chase down aliens on foot. That's either a really poor chapter, or a really dense commander."
Costs and performance of vehicles seems so much more on par since 5th edition, I'm seeing games and armies progress along much more logical lines, and games really have that "OH! TO WALK UPON THE BLOODSTAINED GROUND!" feel to them, with wrecks and craters and churned mud everywhere.
Infantry still has it's place in dense terrain and fortified strongpoints just like always, but in open conflict, infantry's place is inside it's cans, buttoned up away from the flying lead for as long as possible.
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Post by: A-P
GeneralRetreat wrote:
I remember thinking to myself (as a player coming to the game mid-4th) "Wow, these are some stupid Marines, they fly all the way across the galaxy to chase down aliens on foot. That's either a really poor chapter, or a really dense commander."
Now now, yoy did not need vehicles to win with Astartes. Remember that during 4th and with the old Marine Codex, you could make a marine force that was 100% Infiltrate capable. I played one with a reasonably high win ratio. Usually the only vehicles in my lists were speeders. Infiltrating Devastators were a royal pain for enemy tanks, because they had trouble finding a deployment spot where I could not shoot them.
Dammit! I miss my DIY Chapter  .
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
I think the Griffon is the better choice. With TLOS is not that hard to take out a Colussus.
G
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Post by: 12thRonin
Out of curiousity, why aren't drop pod MM dreadnaughts / Ironclads not the answer to tank parks? Drop in next to it, melta it, problem solved. It's not like dreads are chumps.
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Post by: GeneralRetreat
12thRonin wrote:Out of curiousity, why aren't drop pod MM dreadnaughts / Ironclads not the answer to tank parks? Drop in next to it, melta it, problem solved. It's not like dreads are chumps.
LOVE this tactic.
When I want to feel sneaky, I throw a Locator Beacon on the pod, then have 5 termies with CML walk across the board accompanied by Termie Librarian with Gate. When the timing is right, they GoI for 24" move followed by 2 Krak missles or two frag and 10 bolts. Watching a MM/ HF Dread and Terminator squad rip up a tank park in the backfield is a wonderful thing.
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Post by: Gornall
12thRonin wrote:Out of curiousity, why aren't drop pod MM dreadnaughts / Ironclads not the answer to tank parks? Drop in next to it, melta it, problem solved. It's not like dreads are chumps.
Only problem is you're relying on a single shot of MM to kill that tank. Even with Vulkan's TL, it's no guarntee that you'll be able to pop a tank, even if you do manage to land on target. As mentioned before, a smart player will use infantry to screen their tanks so you won't be able to reliably land within double D6 range. Don't get me wrong, it's a viable tactic that can cause a lot of chaos in your opponent's backline if things go your way, but it's far from a sure thing.
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Post by: Caffran9
50% of penetrating hits from Meltas kill tanks. That means that ideally you'll want to have 2 meltas hitting at half range (since half range melta averages a penetrating hit against any armor value).
Also, Inquisimystics really ruins this idea.
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Post by: crazypsyko666
I've always thought that vehicles should be support only, and that this was an infantry vs infantry game. guess i was wrong.
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Post by: Mahu
Another benefit of MEQ armies is the time required to play them. In a tournament setting were every minute counts, and every turn for that matter, it is better to have less models to move, more speed and get the game done in the full allotment of turns. Horde is powerfull, but I could only see it being played well if you can get through moving 150+ models every turn and get the game done in 2 hrs.
Yeah, there is no reason that you shouldn't be able to finish a game in the allotted time anymore.
Now now, yoy did not need vehicles to win with Astartes. Remember that during 4th and with the old Marine Codex, you could make a marine force that was 100% Infiltrate capable. I played one with a reasonably high win ratio. Usually the only vehicles in my lists were speeders. Infiltrating Devastators were a royal pain for enemy tanks, because they had trouble finding a deployment spot where I could not shoot them.
I don't remember anyone ever being afraid of the "infiltrating army" in 4th, especially since half the time you wouldn't get infiltrate in the first place.
I think the Griffon is the better choice. With TLOS is not that hard to take out a Colussus.
What long range shooting are you taking that is reliably taking out a Colussus. If you play on tables that have the good mix of LOS blocking terrain and ruins and other decent terrain pieces, 9 times out of ten, it will be getting a cover save. Lascannons and Assault Cannons are too unreliable in 5th.
Out of curiousity, why aren't drop pod MM dreadnaughts / Ironclads not the answer to tank parks? Drop in next to it, melta it, problem solved. It's not like dreads are chumps.
It's a strong list but two things handicap it; the requirement for half of your pods to show up on turn one and the opponents ability to hold things off in reserve. An IG or Eldar Army can reliably put 60% or more of their force on the table each turn, combined with their mobility and you have a pretty good answer to that list.
Only problem is you're relying on a single shot of MM to kill that tank. Even with Vulkan's TL, it's no guarntee that you'll be able to pop a tank, even if you do manage to land on target. As mentioned before, a smart player will use infantry to screen their tanks so you won't be able to reliably land within double D6 range. Don't get me wrong, it's a viable tactic that can cause a lot of chaos in your opponent's backline if things go your way, but it's far from a sure thing.
Any decently competitive list will have redundency. In my Vulkan list I have two MM Speeders just to drop and eliminate the scariest tank on the battlefield, their effective range can also mean two tanks if I am fortunate. It all comes down to threat assessment and risk management.
I've always thought that vehicles should be support only, and that this was an infantry vs infantry game. guess i was wrong.
If you want to win games, never approach a Wargame with a preconception.
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Post by: Danny Internets
I don't remember anyone ever being afraid of the "infiltrating army" in 4th, especially since half the time you wouldn't get infiltrate in the first place.
Infiltrating Alpha Legion was BRUTAL in 4th edition. The skill only cost 1 point per model and could be taken in addition to other vet skills. It also allowed for a ridiculously nasty daemonic speed DP that was capable of a first turn charge every game with 6 S8 power weapon attacks coming at I6.
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Post by: Lowinor
Danny Internets wrote:Infiltrating Alpha Legion was BRUTAL in 4th edition. The skill only cost 1 point per model and could be taken in addition to other vet skills. It also allowed for a ridiculously nasty daemonic speed DP that was capable of a first turn charge every game with 6 S8 power weapon attacks coming at I6.
4e Chaos was just broken up one side and down the other. For that codex taken as a whole, that's a relatively mild abuse.
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Post by: Lazarus
For Eldar (at least in competition play) Mech is certainly the way to go. I played a hybrid list through most of 4th edition but 5th pretty much forced me into mech completly. Too hard to protect my TROOPS in a random game length environment.
Lazarus.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
12thRonin wrote:Out of curiousity, why aren't drop pod MM dreadnaughts / Ironclads not the answer to tank parks? Drop in next to it, melta it, problem solved. It's not like dreads are chumps.
The IG player I've played on a regular basis castles up quite nicely if you have pods with any melta threats in them. By castle, I mean parking a long infantry line in front of the chims to prevent a strike within 6". This also prevents any MM range on the juicy tanks behind the chim wall. If you DS your Dread and are lucky enough to get a good scatter and/or hit, most times you'll have 2d6 on a chimera...which doesn't mean much. Then you get vet melta'd the next turn.
All pods 'might' have had a chance v. this list if it wasn't for Astropaths. The fact they gave guard the ability to so drastically effect reserve rolls is farking nuts in my mind. Add Mystic/ Inq. combos and I don't even see the point of a Daemon player pulling out his miniatures. House rule, no Mystic allies!
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Post by: Sarigar
Another factor why my Orks went mechanized (especially during tourneys) is for speed of play. I could finish games with my foot sloggers, but I was on my feet hunched over tables for hours in a tourney. My lower back and knees would be aching by the end of the day.
Mechanizing my Orks made my game so much more enjoyable and pain free.
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Post by: SDFarsight
Why would mech lists be more popular in 5th ed? Defensive weapons have now been brought down to S4, which makes the definitive Defensive weapon, the S5 AP5 machinegun....no longer a Defensive weapon. Plus, tanks are now assaulted with rear armour all around.
I agree with the rear armour thing, as it means pulling/bashing at the tank’s weak spots (Major Motoko Kusanagi cliché #3), but I’m really not sure how making the standard Defensive weapon…not a Defensive weapon actually improves the game.
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Post by: Caffran9
Also drop podding units get eaten alive by Inquisimystics/Leman Russ squadron or whatever flavor of AT firepower can do the job best depending on what comes out of the pod.
Mech lists are very popular and very strong in 5th edition because with the new vehicle damage table and rules for glancing hits, vehicles are very hard to destroy compared to previous editions. This makes them very good at protecting units. Combine that with their mobility for snagging objectives and the like and you have a very fast moving and resilient army that can sitll push out solid killing power through its mounted infantry and support elements.
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Post by: Lazarus
For Eldar it also allows you to play a "reserves" style game as Autarchs (including Yriel) can influence your chances. Your high mobility means that you will still get to where you need to go.
Lazarus.
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