Wow, you're fast! I just put those up and went here to post a link and you beat me to it!
I hope you guys enjoy the scenarios, I tried to keep them straight-forward, yet challenging to get all those extra points. The mix of Kill Points and Objectives should help even the field.
Thanks to Marc Parker and friends for their feedback and assistance on the scenarios.
John Shaffer wrote:Wow, you're fast! I just put those up and went here to post a link and you beat me to it!
I hope you guys enjoy the scenarios, I tried to keep them straight-forward, yet challenging to get all those extra points. The mix of Kill Points and Objectives should help even the field.
Thanks to Marc Parker and friends for their feedback and assistance on the scenarios.
Have Fun!
John
well I was on there checking locations and saw the link at the bottom. I are the sneakies
They are very good John, my only concern is are the KP's in the 1st and 3rd scenarios based on standard KP's or on the KP's listed in the 2nd scenario? Otherwise I think the scenarios are solid and not slanted as far as I can see. I also like the additional statement about Daemons using their deployment rule in all games
You know, as much as I hated type-specific kill points when they were a trial universal rule, it's now kinda cool to see them in tourney settings.
That 5 KP is going to make my Seer Councils an even more tempting target, and thus and even better bullet-soak. OTOH, Green Tide armies are going to be even nastier in this scenario. Getting KP out of them will be a royal pain in the neck.
Phew, good thing they added that demon comment.. I was afraid that a member of the most competative gaming group would forget how to play his army again this year in the final round of the final day!
Anyways I like the 2nd mission alot going to make a lot of people reconsider taking some of the nastier builds
These rules really even out some of the lists.. Other armies are actually playable now since you dont have to control ALL the objectives to score a massacre
Lordhat wrote:I want to know exactly what this means:
LINE OF RETREAT
Units that are forced to flee must move toward their
nearest deployment edge.
We know what "own table edge" is because it's defined in the BGB, but we have no definition for a "Deployment Edge".
The terms are interchangeable. Sorry for the confusion.
Hulksmash wrote:They are very good John, my only concern is are the KP's in the 1st and 3rd scenarios based on standard KP's or on the KP's listed in the 2nd scenario? Otherwise I think the scenarios are solid and not slanted as far as I can see. I also like the additional statement about Daemons using their deployment rule in all games
All scenarios are self contained and follow the standard rules unless otherwise noted. So scenarios 1 and 3 follow the standard KP rules.
Lordhat wrote:I want to know exactly what this means:
LINE OF RETREAT
Units that are forced to flee must move toward their
nearest deployment edge.
We know what "own table edge" is because it's defined in the BGB, but we have no definition for a "Deployment Edge".
The terms are interchangeable. Sorry for the confusion.
Hulksmash wrote:They are very good John, my only concern is are the KP's in the 1st and 3rd scenarios based on standard KP's or on the KP's listed in the 2nd scenario? Otherwise I think the scenarios are solid and not slanted as far as I can see. I also like the additional statement about Daemons using their deployment rule in all games
All scenarios are self contained and follow the standard rules unless otherwise noted. So scenarios 1 and 3 follow the standard KP rules.
It's all good, I just wanted to be sure that this got cleared up, as the terminology isn't consistent throughout the the three scenarios... this could lead to people trying to flee towards the short table edges. Unless of course that was your intent?
ShumaGorath wrote:I use two suicide assault HQ's. The second mission is going to murder me.
Same and they pod in on the first turn unsupported in the enemies face, or at least thats how they are useful. Guess the Libby will just keep teleporting cassius and himself away from the enemy sharing his toughness 6 instead.
Krootman wrote:Phew, good thing they added that demon comment.. I was afraid that a member of the most competative gaming group would forget how to play his army again this year in the final round of the final day!
This made me laugh, I like to laugh.
All scenarios are self contained and follow the standard rules unless otherwise noted. So scenarios 1 and 3 follow the standard KP rules.
I would assume this means no "clarification" forthcoming like last years that said you had to kill the entire choice for KPs, not the standard units definition, right?
Aduro wrote:Does the second mission (dawn of war) use the usual first turn night fight? It doesn't mention night fight in the special rules for the missin.
I saw that, too. Can we assume turn 1 night fight?
With games being 6 turns, does that throw some tactics out? The random game length made players plan for end game.
Kirasu wrote:By throwing tactics out.. You mean actually adding tactics and getting rid of random chance? :p
I mean now that for sure it's a 6 turn game, going 2nd is king!
With random game length, you had to decide if committing your troops to objectives for a turn 5 end was worth it, because if a 1 or 2 wasn't rolled you would be losing valuable troops to your opponent's turn 6 reaction.
Random chance keeps you on your toes and thinking.
Well, I was a little apprehensive about taking my deathwing to the tourney. But after reading the actual objectives and knowing I get 6 turns per game, it helps me plan a bit. And knowing that my termi squads are only going to count as 1 point makes me smile
I imagine we'll see quite a few tricked out HQ's, or a few not coming on the board until turn 4+. Going to have to earn the 5 pt bonus.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Old Man Ultramarine wrote:
Aduro wrote:Does the second mission (dawn of war) use the usual first turn night fight? It doesn't mention night fight in the special rules for the missin.
I saw that, too. Can we assume turn 1 night fight?
I also would like this one part clarified as the first scenario states Night Fight Turn 1 (not usually part of pitched battle), but the actual DoW scenario 2 does not state Night Fight for it's special rules.
I'm cool with either/both as I consider Night Fighting for 2/3 rounds a good thing for my army
Awesome, even though I play Tau i prefer to know going into it how many KP's i've got in all the other missions.
One last clarification John about the KP's for the second game:
Would for instance Drones debarking from a Pathfinder Devilfish (dedicated transport from the fast attack category) count as 1 KP (dedicated transport unit) or as 2 KP (Fast Attack)?
Either answer sets the precedence to use across the board since the only units where they would be worth more than one KP is off the pirahna's or the pathfinder devilfish.
Aduro wrote:Does the second mission (dawn of war) use the usual first turn night fight? It doesn't mention night fight in the special rules for the missin.
I saw that, too. Can we assume turn 1 night fight?
I also would like this one part clarified as the first scenario states Night Fight Turn 1 (not usually part of pitched battle), but the actual DoW scenario 2 does not state Night Fight for it's special rules.
Add me as another one curious about this.
These scenarios have me wanting to play in Ard Boyz even more... I'm definitely going to shoot for this next year.
ugh, those missions look atrocious to me, although I guess I'm not the type of player to play in these either. I foresee plenty of KP related problems "my opponents army doesn't even contain enough KP's to score a massacre even if I table them" etc.
That would be a concern if it were even possible..
HQ 5 pts
Troops 2 pts
Okay so if you can fit 2500 pts into 1 HQ and 2 troops then it would be possible to not give a massacre if you get totally wiped out.. But I dont think thats going to be the case
Yeah, in that KP scenario there shouldn't be a single army that is running under 20 KP's. Cause even w/1 HQ and 2 Troops in transports your looking at 9 KP's.
I usaully not a big fan for change especially with warhammer It makes the rules more complicated and I don't like that but some of these updates I do like.
John Shaffer wrote:Wow, you're fast! I just put those up and went here to post a link and you beat me to it!
I hope you guys enjoy the scenarios, I tried to keep them straight-forward, yet challenging to get all those extra points. The mix of Kill Points and Objectives should help even the field.
Thanks to Marc Parker and friends for their feedback and assistance on the scenarios.
Have Fun!
John
Only one dawn of war...already a major improvement over last years prequalifiers.
3x DA in Serpents (6 KP's)
3x Fire Prisms (6 KP's)
Yeah, scenario 2 is going to be an uphill battle for any mech army. However, it does make the Seer Councils even better bait, and they are resilient enough to survive.
It's definitely pulling me towards one largeish Council instead of 2 smaller ones, though.
I could see nob bikers winning it all. IG are by no means proven as a top tier list yet. They give up a tonne of KPs as well... Luckily they fixed that for this year.
Can any of you guys help me understand the Battlepoints? Do you get a set number of Battlepoints for a Massacre? Another set number for a Minor Win and so on?
And do you then add any scenario-specific bonus-Battlepoints?
ShumaGorath wrote: And the nob biker squad can be tank shocked off the table with one easily used psychic choir. They aren't in a very good position to win this.
I'll have to disagree here. I think with Night Fight rules being in the first two scenarios that Nob Bikers are going to have a very good shot as they will be able to get into position way before other armies are going to be in a position to hit them, unless they're facing another Nob biker army. PSC is going to be good, I just don't think the scenariors line out for them to work quite like we've seen in some BReps lately.
well it seems as if daemons take a hit too, with 4 possible HQs, that could break some lists. Same with Drop Pod armies, thats a lot of random Kill points.
Looks like my Land Raider Spam will still probably be ok. Grey Knights are actually playable this year. YAYYY
ShumaGorath wrote:And the nob biker squad can be tank shocked off the table with one easily used psychic choir. They aren't in a very good position to win this.
How does the Psyker battle squad help you tank shock? Tank shock occurs in the movement phase while the PBS's powers can only be used in the shooting phase. The squad is potentially useful in other circumstances, but you'll have to actually inflict casualties to make it work.
Well, seeing as the actual Scenario's are posted I imagine the IG players are scrambling to get all those little plastic guys bought/painted so the mech lists that were so "OP" are going to give way to maxed out troop choices spread all over the table as to confuse the opponent on what actually counts as a "KP" vs just another piece of the army.
Uriels_Flame wrote:Well, seeing as the actual Scenario's are posted I imagine the IG players are scrambling to get all those little plastic guys bought/painted so the mech lists that were so "OP" are going to give way to maxed out troop choices spread all over the table as to confuse the opponent on what actually counts as a "KP" vs just another piece of the army.
My reading of the scoring is that killpoints are going back to kill points being awarded per unit. Everything would be worth a kp, which is part of the incentive to fielding mech vets in the first place.
Krootman wrote:Phew, good thing they added that demon comment.. I was afraid that a member of the most competative gaming group would forget how to play his army again this year in the final round of the final day!
All scenarios are self contained and follow the standard rules unless otherwise noted. So scenarios 1 and 3 follow the standard KP rules.
I would assume this means no "clarification" forthcoming like last years that said you had to kill the entire choice for KPs, not the standard units definition, right?
Yes, please specifically address scenario 2 re this. Unit or Force Org selection?
1.) Scenarios "Drawn and Quartered" and "Land Grab" use the standard Kill Points rules (Pg 91) with the exception of Scenario 2: Head Hunter, which has its own Kill Point values as indicated in the scenario.
2.) Standard Kill Points rules means just that. You are awarded KPs for units destroyed, not Force Org choices destroyed.
3.) Detached drones from Tau vehicles and other weirdness award a single KP, even if they would count as a Elite or Fast Attack choice.
4.) In "Head Hunter", Only the initial HQ choice (usually an independent character) awards 5 KPs. Accompanying retinues that are technically HQ choices (Seer Councils, Tyrant Guard, Dark Eldar Retinues, Space Marine Command Squads, etc.) award 1 KP, as do their transports. So for example, a Farseer and his accompanying Warlocks riding in a Wave Serpent would award 7 KPs (5 +1 +1) if you destroy the lot.
5.) Scenario 2 does use the Night Fighting rules as per the Dawn of War deployment rules on page 93.
I hope that clarifies things. I'll likely amend the scenarios and repost them with the above changes later today.
Dang John! Your doing a great job man. I think that covers most everyone's issues that have come up and I just wanna say thank you for being so on it.
Though might I suggest that since most retinues are generally elite units they be worth 2 KP's? Only makes sense in that scenario since only troops are worth one and you could have some amazingly destructive units worth just a single KP Just a thought
Krootman wrote:
Anyways I like the 2nd mission alot going to make a lot of people reconsider taking some of the nastier builds
I was thinking about taking Space Wolves, but this mission kills them.
I fully understand the extra points for HQ units to do exactly what he said. However the ONLY army I ever play in 40k is Space Wolves and I have been looking forward to this for months, and that mission alone just dropped a steamer on my chances.
My current list has 35 kill points in it under those rules, which could be simplified by saying "pray". If I dropped every heavy and elite I had I would still end up in the very high 20's due to the HQ requirements on SW. Average opponent will probably be 8 or more kill points under me even with one of the lists that rule I assume was made to hinder. I dunno if you CAN even play as cautious as that would require with the HQ's and still put up any offense considering the points tied up in the characters. I have adjusted the weapons on my Ven Dread, tossed termi/runic armor on my three other HQ, and in the process had to sacrifice those points from other spots weakening the army in general to protect all four of my 5 troop squad equivalent KP's. I know the very small population of SW players in this means that it's either deal with it or play them as vanilla marines, but this is a major nutshot for us.
I can pretty much guess, but will all three have to be played through the three rounds or will they be random? Also will these rules carry over to the second round? If this is clearly stated somewhere I am sorry.
Krootman wrote:
Anyways I like the 2nd mission alot going to make a lot of people reconsider taking some of the nastier builds
I was thinking about taking Space Wolves, but this mission kills them.
I fully understand the extra points for HQ units to do exactly what he said. However the ONLY army I ever play in 40k is Space Wolves and I have been looking forward to this for months, and that mission alone just dropped a steamer on my chances.
My current list has 34 kill points in it under those rules, which could be simplified by saying "pray". If I dropped every heavy and elite I had I would still end up in the very high 20's due to the HQ requirements on SW. Average opponent will probably have around 20 and that is being pretty generous. I dunno if you CAN even play as cautious as that would require and still put up any offense. I have adjusted the weapons on My Ven Dread, tossed termi/runic armor on my three other HQ, and in the process sacrificed a troop unit/drop pod assault. I know the very small population of SW players in this means that it's either deal with it or play them as vanilla marines, but this is a major nutshot for us.
I can pretty much guess, but will all three have to be played through the three rounds or will they be random? Also will these rules carry over to the second round? If this is clearly stated somewhere I am sorry.
Kaotik wrote:I fully understand the extra points for HQ units to do exactly what he said. However the ONLY army I ever play in 40k is Space Wolves and I have been looking forward to this for months, and that mission alone just dropped a steamer on my chances.
My current list has 35 kill points in it under those rules, which could be simplified by saying "pray". If I dropped every heavy and elite I had I would still end up in the very high 20's due to the HQ requirements on SW. Average opponent will probably have around 20 and that is being pretty generous. I dunno if you CAN even play as cautious as that would require and still put up any offense. I have adjusted the weapons on my Ven Dread, tossed termi/runic armor on my three other HQ, and in the process had to sacrifice those points from other spots weakening the army in general to protect all four of my 5 troop squad equivalent KP's. I know the very small population of SW players in this means that it's either deal with it or play them as vanilla marines, but this is a major nutshot for us.
I can pretty much guess, but will all three have to be played through the three rounds or will they be random? Also will these rules carry over to the second round? If this is clearly stated somewhere I am sorry.
I think you're goin a little far here. 34 KP's in the second mission is actually kinda low if you consider that most of the Mech IG lists everyone is talking about runs about 39+ in the second mission, and is heavy on KP's in every other mission. Your wolves only have a handicap in one mission, and still work really well. There are other armies that suffer just as bad from this KP rule. (Eldar Seer Councils, DA or BA Honor Guards, Black Templars, Tau Crisis Bodyguards, for example) I think you'll end up just fine and this isn't the end of the world.
I think you're goin a little far here. 34 KP's in the second mission is actually kinda low if you consider that most of the Mech IG lists everyone is talking about runs about 39+ in the second mission, and is heavy on KP's in every other mission. Your wolves only have a handicap in one mission, and still work really well. There are other armies that suffer just as bad from this KP rule. (Eldar Seer Councils, DA or BA Honor Guards, Black Templars, Tau Crisis Bodyguards, for example) I think you'll end up just fine and this isn't the end of the world.
Ya I looked at my friends list for the tourny and he has like 28 so my assumed number on the opposition was way of and I edited the post. You made some points on the other lists though, but it was stated that the bodyguards for the council were one point and not the 5 stated originally so the numbers in those situations won't be that high. Mech Guard and the like will be rough I admit, but I still think a forced 20pts on the board is rough.
34 for my IG army and I'm not concerned at all! It isn't like I roll onto the field and my whole army blows up automatically 'giving up' 34 kill points.
I am going with the idea of denying kill points bby shooting threats into little tiny peices instead of reworking my entire play style around having less KP's in my army.
I think IG will be fine in scenario 2 but I do think they will have a very hard time scoring a massacre. I playtested it this weekend against a DH 5x Landraider list. I virtually tabled him ( of course his two HQ hid behind a wreked landraider on the corner of the board so they, and one 5man marine squad were all he had left. ) and still only got a Major Victory.
The armies that will have the hardest time with it are the ones that depend on thier HQ for the majority of thier killing power.
I have made some minor changes and cut down the number of chimeras from 7 to 5 but overall Im confident with the basic mech vet strategies.
Steelmage99 wrote:Can any of you guys help me understand the Battlepoints? Do you get a set number of Battlepoints for a Massacre? Another set number for a Minor Win and so on?
And do you then add any scenario-specific bonus-Battlepoints?
Steelmage99 wrote:Can any of you guys help me understand the Battlepoints? Do you get a set number of Battlepoints for a Massacre? Another set number for a Minor Win and so on?
And do you then add any scenario-specific bonus-Battlepoints?
I just ran a test game with my guard list and scored a massacre in scenario #1. It would also have been a massacre in scenario #2, there's no way to call how #3 would have went.
Of course my opponent didn't optimize his list or anything and it seemed like my dice were on FIRE so it might have been a false positive.
John Shaffer wrote:Accompanying retinues that are technically HQ choices (Seer Councils, Tyrant Guard, Dark Eldar Retinues, Space Marine Command Squads, etc.) award 1 KP, as do their transports. So for example, a Farseer and his accompanying Warlocks riding in a Wave Serpent would award 7 KPs (5 +1 +1) if you destroy the lot.
While I wait for the PDF on the website to be updated...
So is a Warlock unit officially a retinue now? (I'm having trouble finding Seer Council in my Eldar Codex.)
What about Imperial Guard Priests or the Black Templars Emperor's Champion (does not use up an HQ slot according to the FAQ)?
John Shaffer wrote:Accompanying retinues that are technically HQ choices (Seer Councils, Tyrant Guard, Dark Eldar Retinues, Space Marine Command Squads, etc.) award 1 KP, as do their transports. So for example, a Farseer and his accompanying Warlocks riding in a Wave Serpent would award 7 KPs (5 +1 +1) if you destroy the lot.
While I wait for the PDF on the website to be updated...
So is a Warlock unit officially a retinue now? (I'm having trouble finding Seer Council in my Eldar Codex.)
What about Imperial Guard Priests or the Black Templars Emperor's Champion (does not use up an HQ slot according to the FAQ)?
The Warlock unit is called a "Warlock Bodyguard". They are not a "retinue" per say, they are a separate unit taken as an HQ that do not use up a slot. However, since they are an HQ unit, under the 'Ard Boyz rules in Scenario 2, they would be worth 5 KP's. John's clarification means they will only be worth 1 KP in Scenario 2.
whitedragon wrote:The Warlock unit is called a "Warlock Bodyguard". They are not a "retinue" per say, they are a separate unit taken as an HQ that do not use up a slot. However, since they are an HQ unit, under the 'Ard Boyz rules in Scenario 2, they would be worth 5 KP's. John's clarification means they will only be worth 1 KP in Scenario 2.
My Codex just says "squad of 3-10 Warlocks", nothing about them being a "bodyguard". It also says, like you say, that they are a separate unit, but the Codex says "This unit and the Farseer are a single HQ choice." So why would they be 1 or 5 in addition to the Farseer?
And when will the scenarios be updated on the website? No offense intended, but a random post on Dakka certainly isn't going to be noticed by all the local stores participating in the event. Our local store has already said that any changes posted won't be in effect until they come from an official channel.
I appreciate your concerns about the HQ Kill Points. There are so many options and exceptions to the hard and fast 2 HQs (especially in the older books) that I feel I should amend the Kill Points for Scenario 2 as follows:
Kill Points in this scenario are determined in the
following way:
• Troops - 1 Kill Point
• Dedicated Transports - 1 Kill Point
• Fast Attack/Elites/Heavy Support - 2 Kill Points
• HQs that use up a HQ slot - 5 Kill Points
• Other HQ choices & Retinues - 1 Kill Point
• Demonic Heralds - 3 Kill Points
• Space Wolf Characters - 3 Kill Points
• Units created in battle - 0 Kill Points, such as:
Tau Drones from vehicles
Chaos Spawn from Gift of Chaos
Kugath’s Nurglings
Spore Mines, etc.
Is that clear enough to avoid any confusion or bias? I will post the amended scenarios tomorrow and will have the Trade accounts notified that the newest versions are currently available for download. If in doubt, please contact your local game store hosting the 'Ard Boyz and request they download the most recent scenarios.
Thanks again for the input, and have a great time this weekend!
John Shaffer wrote:
• HQs that use up a HQ slot - 5 Kill Points
That clears it up for Eldar players: no reason to not take a Warlock squad since the squad and Farseer "are a single HQ choice". Toughest 5 KPs to get IMHO.
John Shaffer wrote:
Is that clear enough to avoid any confusion or bias? I will post the amended scenarios tomorrow and will have the Trade accounts notified that the newest versions are currently available for download. If in doubt, please contact your local game store hosting the 'Ard Boyz and request they download the most recent scenarios.
I didn't think there was any bias, but yes, that clears up some small confusion from an otherwise well put together set of scenarios. Thanks and look forward to meeting you a BoLSCon!
I have a small concern regarding the Techmarine from the TFC (if the gun is destroyed) and/or Chronus. Do those fall under the created in battle category?
I'd say yes. they only become units themselves when something happens to the item their attached to. But that's just my opinion.
::doin a dance about the drones:: That saved me 6 KP's in the second mission
And I agree that that should be added to the main FAQ. Ridiculous that spore mines, gun drones, and newly created spawn are KP's but we make due like we always do
Thank You for keeping ahead of all of these issues. It is really going to reduce a lot of the confusion and potential arguments going into the second scenario. All the scenarios are really interesting and should make for a great tournament experience.
I have to thank you for your timely response to all the questions posted in this thread and others around the net! This is the kind of support I have longed to see from Games Workshop for their rules and events. Please keep up the great support!
Just wanted to add to the chorus of "thank you John"
This is the way every event should be handled and if it is an indication of how GW will manage thier events going forward you will have a lot of gamers doing the happy dance!!!!
I know I have dropped over 1500 on product this quarter alone mainly because of Ard Boyz and Im sure im not alone.
As an aside, am I correct in assuming that all the zero killpoint, created-in-game units will still be worth one killpoint in the 1st and 3rd scenarios?
I posted in here on how the rules were extremely harsh to the Wolves in that round, you apparently listened either to me or others, and you adjusted it to be very fair. That puts us at just 2 points over the armies that max their HQ choices, and this is perfectly fine. Also thank you for making the points cost for retinues clear. Half the posts I have seen on the army lists section are making mention of retinues and the like being another 5pts, which you stated in this post was wrong.
As others have already said, outstanding job on quarterbacking this thing man.
I like how slot of the rulings he's made, such as the one about created units being worth no KPs, are the same or similar to the house rules I use for tournaments I run here.
is it possible to get an official ruling on deffrolla's VS. vehicles? Some people are saying they got ruling from GW that they do in fact work. Can we get an official word on it as it can make a huge difference going into the second round.
Seriously. I took orks all three rounds last year and it worked on vehicles. First round this year, they said no. A buddy took similiar list to another store, guess what, they said yes. All quoted some great prophet at GW. I've never been one to harp on the ambiguity of GW rules, but the lack of consistency in a "national" tournament is a bit annoying.
Also a set way on how Valkyries are used. Is it use the base for moving/assaulting and the hull/cockpit of the model for line of sight and shooting. Or are we only allowed to deploy via deepstrike and not embark due to the height and not allowed to overhand any models due to the enormous size of the model? An official ruling on this would be excellent as well since it will decide whether I take one or not. Thanks John!
