I want to use Holocaust and have a question regarding codex trumps rulebook... First does the template scatter and second do models partially under the template only be hit on a 4+?

G

the codex rules for the power take priority if I am correct

Holocaust isn't a blast weapon attack, as such there's no reason for you to follow the blast weapon rules, you play it exactly as the codex says. It just uses the blast marker with it's own rules for placement and a 4+ for partials to inflict S5 hits.

Yep. No scatter, partials are hit on a 4+.

It's the rules for the psychic power, it's not a regular blast weapon.

Thanks!

G

Which codex is 'Holocaust' from?

I seem to remember a huge thread about the eldar farseer power 'eldritch storm', where we ended up agreeing that it did scatter because it was technically a psychic shooting attack and it used a template.

NB: Not trying to troll, just wondering if there is any difference between 'place the template' in the holocaust rules and 'place the template' in the eldritch storm rules?


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Nevermind. It's a bloody Daemonhunters thing isn't it.

Si senor.

J.Black wrote:Which codex is 'Holocaust' from?

I seem to remember a huge thread about the eldar farseer power 'eldritch storm', where we ended up agreeing that it did scatter because it was technically a psychic shooting attack and it used a template.

NB: Not trying to troll, just wondering if there is any difference between 'place the template' in the holocaust rules and 'place the template' in the eldritch storm rules?


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Nevermind. It's a bloody Daemonhunters thing isn't it.

The biggest difference between them is that Eldritch storm is done using a weapon profile of a blast weapon, whereas holocaust says to place the template and things under it suffer a single S5 attack.

I think you'll find that's not the case.

Holocaust is used in the assault phase which stops it being classed as a psychic shooting attack, ergo no need to roll for any scatter.

Eldritch storm is done in the shooting phase making it a psychic shooting attack by default. So it scatters.

The blast weapon profile has nothing to do with it.

J.Black wrote:I think you'll find that's not the case.

Holocaust is used in the assault phase which stops it being classed as a psychic shooting attack, ergo no need to roll for any scatter.

Eldritch storm is done in the shooting phase making it a psychic shooting attack by default. So it scatters.

The blast weapon profile has nothing to do with it.

So my Non Blast Psychic shooting attack scatters now? Wow, learn something new every day!

Gwar! wrote:So my Non Blast Psychic shooting attack scatters now? Wow, learn something new every day!

yes, apparently we have been playing it wrong all along, all psychic shooting attacks scatter

Drunkspleen wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So my Non Blast Psychic shooting attack scatters now? Wow, learn something new every day!

yes, apparently we have been playing it wrong all along, all psychic shooting attacks scatter

Just for the record:

</sarcasm>

Blast Shooting attacks (Psychic or not) Scatter. Holocaust is not a Blast Shooting attack (Psychic or otherwise) so does not scatter.

Gwar! wrote:

Blast Shooting attacks (Psychic or not) Scatter. Holocaust is not a Blast Shooting attack (Psychic or otherwise) so does not scatter.

That's what i was getting at. My previous reply was in the context of the two powers i was talking about and the parameters appertaining thereunto.

J.Black wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Blast Shooting attacks (Psychic or not) Scatter. Holocaust is not a Blast Shooting attack (Psychic or otherwise) so does not scatter.

That's what i was getting at. My previous reply was in the context of the two powers i was talking about and the parameters appertaining thereunto.

And my Reply was aimed at your comment of "The blast weapon profile has nothing to do with it." which is wrong, as non Blast Psychic shooting attacks do not scatter, which is what you were seeming to imply.

I think you'll find that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle causes them to scatter imperceptibly.

Holocaust is a template attack that uses a small round template rather than a standard teardrop template. Pretty simple, really.

SJ

jeffersonian000 wrote:Holocaust is a template attack that uses a small round template rather than a standard teardrop template. Pretty simple, really.

SJ

But it's not because it's not a shooting attack at all, and doesn't have a weapon profile, it's a psychic ability that uses the small blast marker to resolve it's targets and then infict a certain effect on those people.

Holocaust follows every rule for template weapons with the exception of which phase it's used in, which template is used, and which models can be legally under the template. No where else does it reference any other rules other than it being a psychic power.

SJ

What are holocaust rules? makes me think of genocide..

jeffersonian000 wrote:Holocaust follows every rule for template weapons with the exception of which phase it's used in, which template is used, and which models can be legally under the template. No where else does it reference any other rules other than it being a psychic power.

SJ

Except that it's not a shooting attack at all, and doesn't have a weapon profile, it's a psychic ability that uses the small blast marker to resolve it's targets and then inflict a certain effect on those people.


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Ritz wrote:What are holocaust rules? makes me think of genocide..

It is a Psycic power available to Daemonhunters. It is one of the very few Non-PC things to survive from 2nd edition 40k.

I regard it as a shooting attack. The rules for how it works are explicit and since codex trumps rulebook it should not scatter and does wound models partially covered on a 4+. This is yet another example of why codex trumps rulebook is silly but it saves the developers from having to do a lot of work.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I regard it as a shooting attack. The rules for how it works are explicit and since codex trumps rulebook it should not scatter and does wound models partially covered on a 4+. This is yet another example of why codex trumps rulebook is silly but it saves the developers from having to do a lot of work.

ITS NOT A PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACK!!!!!!!!!

Let's see... you roll to wound after covering models with a template... it's definitely a psychic power... sure sounds like a shooting attack.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Let's see... you roll to wound after covering models with a template... it's definitely a psychic power... sure sounds like a shooting attack.

Yeah, One small problem:

It is done in the Assault Phase. Explain that one.

Remember when vypers could take crystal targeting matrix... oh wait I forgot you are not supposed to have any imagination when playing this game... it is sci fi after all.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Remember when vypers could take crystal targeting matrix... oh wait I forgot you are not supposed to have any imagination when playing this game... it is sci fi after all.

Yeah, boo hoo. Look, it isn't a shooting attack.

Why, because simply you say it does not?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Why, because simply you say it does not?

No, because it's rules do not say it is a shooting attack, it happens in the assault phase and does not use the shooting rules, ergo it is not a shooting attack.

There are many situations where an action occurs in the non action stage. To say shooting is not shooting because it occurs in the assault phase makes no sense at all. Is it then a psychic assault by your definition? Can you cite any other examples?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:There are many situations where an action occurs in the non action stage. To say shooting is not shooting because it occurs in the assault phase makes no sense at all. Is it then a psychic assault by your definition? Can you cite any other examples?

No, it is a Psychic ability. It is not a Psychic Shooting attack because:
a) It doesn't say it IS a Shooting attack, and as such it isn't.
b) It happens in the Assault phase.
c) It has it's own special rules to determine what happens, it does not reference the shooting rules at all.

I don't know, sure sounds like shooting to me. You know what they say - if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it must be a duck.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I don't know, sure sounds like shooting to me. You know what they say - if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it must be a duck.

What part of "It doesn't use the shooting rules" don't you understand?

note the blast rule is indicated in a little chunk of the weapons profile ether as "blast" or "large blast". Unless you've got a profile with that you don't use the blast rule. simple as simple can be.

Gwar! wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I don't know, sure sounds like shooting to me. You know what they say - if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it must be a duck.

What part of "It doesn't use the shooting rules" don't you understand?

You never answered my question - is this a psychic assault?

holocaust is used in the assault phase. on a successfully test place the large template touching the casting model any friend or foe under the template are hit on a 4+ at str5 armour saves as normal. All casualty are added to combat resolutions

Afrikan Blonde wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I don't know, sure sounds like shooting to me. You know what they say - if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it must be a duck.

What part of "It doesn't use the shooting rules" don't you understand?

You never answered my question - is this a psychic assault?

I did answer it. Try reading. It is a Psychic Power. Not all Psychic Powers done in the shooting phase are Psychic shooting attacks. They must explicitly be stated to be Psychic shooting attacks. Holocaust is not stated to be such, mainly because it doesn't even happen in the shooting phase or use the Blast Rules.

Seriously mate, if you are gonna post in a Rules Debate forum, RTFM before posting m'kay?

I disagree with you. There are other instances of shooting attacks that are psychic and are not necessarily called out as a shooting attack. For instance lash was later referred to by GW as a shooting attack. It is also obvious that hit on 4+ for models partially covered was in reference to the old rules for blast templates when this codex was released. Are you aware of older versions of the rules?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I disagree with you. There are other instances of shooting attacks that are psychic and are not necessarily called out as a shooting attack. For instance lash was later referred to by GW as a shooting attack. It is also obvious that hit on 4+ for models partially covered was in reference to the old rules for blast templates when this codex was released. Are you aware of older versions of the rules?

Yeah, because it is done instead of firing a weapon. Oh, it is also done in the shooting Phase (there is a clue for you).

Now, can you explain why you think an Attack that does not use the shooting rules and does not happen in the shooting phase count as shooting please?


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Afrikan Blonde wrote:It is also obvious that hit on 4+ for models partially covered was in reference to the old rules for blast templates when this codex was released. Are you aware of older versions of the rules?

Guess what bozo, we are not playing the old editions. That 4+ rule is now a special rule in that codex. But fine, if you wanna play with the old edition rules, I wanna let my Space Wolves All Deep Strike for free, fire their bolters and then assault, like I could in the old edition! That ok with you?

So you are resorting to name calling now? I see you are still avoiding my question.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So you are resorting to name calling now? I see you are still avoiding my question.

What question? I have answered every singe question you have put forth in this thread you insufferable troll.

And you have yet to answer MY Question:
Now, can you explain why you think an Attack that does not use the shooting rules and does not happen in the shooting phase count as shooting please?

So you are saying that a psychic power that counted as a shooting attack in the 3rd edition no longer is a shooting attack because GW changed the rules for how blast templates work? Are you familiar with the 3rd edition rules? It's important because that was the framework under which the DH codex was written. You can probably find a copy on eBay.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So you are saying that a psychic power that counted as a shooting attack in the 3rd edition no longer is a shooting attack because GW changed the rules for how blast templates work? Are you familiar with the 3rd edition rules? It's important because that was the framework under which the DH codex was written. You can probably find a copy on eBay.

Well, firstly, it was not a shooting attack back in 3rd edition, so where you have that Idea I have no idea.

Secondly, I have Played every edition since 2nd, and own every single rulebook and codex from 3rd onwards (missing a Few 2nd ed ones). I even have a Copy of Rogue Trader.

Thridly: WE NO PLAY 3RD EDITION ANY MORE! You want to use 3rd edition rules? Fine, I will use my 3rd edition Space Wolf Codex, Deep Strike everything for free, then Fire my bolters, then assault because "that was the framework under which the SW codex was written. "

Gwar you have to understand how 3rd edition worked to properly apply this codex using 5th edition. What you have said leads me to believe you have failed to grasp this important point.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Gwar you have to understand how 3rd edition worked to properly apply this codex using 5th edition. What you have said leads me to believe you have failed to grasp this important point.

You still have yet to answer my question. Would you be OK with me doing that with my Space Wolves? And if not, why are you a massive hypocrite? Also, How does 3rd ed have anything to do with how 5th ed is played?

You, good sir, are nothing more than a Troll, Charlatan, Hypocrite and some other mean words I am not permitted to say.

You obviously resort to calling names when losing an argument.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:You obviously resort to calling names when losing an argument.

Still waiting for an answer.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Gwar you have to understand how 3rd edition worked to properly apply this codex using 5th edition. What you have said leads me to believe you have failed to grasp this important point.

No AB, you're wrong on that. How it worked in 3rd has no bearing on how it works in 5th. Rules change, and how items/abilites/etc work or don't work change along with them. And I've been playing since 2nd and do have all the books since then.

psychic power that counted as a shooting attack come in 2 forms
Standard these have a recognised weapons profile Range X" S:Y AP:Z. The only difference between this and a standard gun is a psychic is need to fire it.

Abstract these can range wildly in form and target spesific model groups or even areas. The only thing these things have in conmen is that they happen in shooting phase and effect the enemy.

Note all shooting attacks happen in the shooting phase.

Another interesting note: 5th ed rules on psychic shooting attacks disallow the use of such powers while locked in hth. Yet IIRC, Holocaust can be used while locked in hth. Ergo, it is not a psychic shooting attack.

Page 50:
PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACKS
Psychic powers that take the form of shooting attacks are very common. Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat,

Refer to what I said earlier... holocaust works like blast templates back in 3rd and 4th editions; that is the partially covered models were hit on the roll of a 4+.

don_mondo wrote:Another interesting note: 5th ed rules on psychic shooting attacks disallow the use of such powers while locked in hth. Yet IIRC, Holocaust can be used while locked in hth. Ergo, it is not a psychic shooting attack.

Sorry but codex trumps rulebook.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Refer to what I said earlier... holocaust works like blast templates back in 3rd and 4th editions; that is the partially covered models were hit on the roll of a 4+.

don_mondo wrote:Another interesting note: 5th ed rules on psychic shooting attacks disallow the use of such powers while locked in hth. Yet IIRC, Holocaust can be used while locked in hth. Ergo, it is not a psychic shooting attack.

Sorry but codex trumps rulebook.

very true ... but you keep ignoring that shooting only can happen in the shooting phase. It is technical a psychic close combat attack.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Sorry but codex trumps rulebook.

Yeah, so where in the codex does it say it is a shooting attack?

Hmmm, hate to bring it up, but while ABs argument is totally wrong, Holocaust may indeed be a shooting power (but not for the reasons he states). Refer to the DH FAQ:

Q. Which Daemonhunter psychic powers follow the shooting rules?
A. Scourging and Holocaust follow the shooting rules.

So a case of right answer for all the wrong reasons............?

don_mondo wrote:Hmmm, hate to bring it up, but while ABs argument is totally wrong, Holocaust may indeed be a shooting power (but not for the reasons he states). Refer to the DH FAQ:

Q. Which Daemonhunter psychic powers follow the shooting rules?
A. Scourging and Holocaust follow the shooting rules.

So a case of right answer for all the wrong reasons............?

FAQ is House rules. RaW you follow what the codex says. Also, just because you follow the shooting rules, does not mean it is a shooting attack, the same way as the Scout Move is movement but not a movement phase.

don_mondo wrote:Hmmm, hate to bring it up, but while ABs argument is totally wrong, Holocaust may indeed be a shooting power (but not for the reasons he states). Refer to the DH FAQ:

Q. Which Daemonhunter psychic powers follow the shooting rules?
A. Scourging and Holocaust follow the shooting rules.

So a case of right answer for all the wrong reasons............?

lord just once i'd like it if GW was consistent ... if holocaust follows the shooting rules then it can't be fired because it never says it can be used in CC .... so the only way to use this power is not to be in cc but within range ....

You are not instructed that it uses the blast special rule. You cannot declare that it does because it's instruction bears resemblance to a component of another rule.

Previous editions are completely irrelevant.

FAQs are not house rules. All large events in the US use them.

Previous editions show intent... yes I know that is a dirty word here but some of us understand why it is needed at times.

Tri wrote:lord just once i'd like it if GW was consistent ... if holocaust follows the shooting rules then it can't be fired because it never says it can be used in CC .... so the only way to use this power is not to be in cc but within range ....

Sure you can, first line of the rule is "Holocaust is a psychic power that may be used in the Daemonhunters' Assault phase, at an effective initiative of 1".

Assuming you do use shooting rules, any that would actually matter are overridden by the specific rules the codex gives. Use in assault phase, place Ordnance template such and such a way to determine hits, etc.

There is no profile that states it is a Blast weapon, therefore it isn't.

Previous editions show previous RAW.

And are entirely irrelvent to current rules discussions unless one is simply trying to confuse things.

Specific rules override general rules.
(codex > BGB is false)

The main rules specify what a psychic shooting attack is.

Holocause does not fit the specifications.

Who cares about intent when determining how a currently printed mechanic works? Intent is for how you choose to play something, not for how something works as printed.

The last eldar codex had a piece of wargear that allowed the vehicle to shoot during the movement phase which was an effective counter to siren princes. This sets a precedent that an action can occur during a non action phase.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:FAQs are not house rules. All large events in the US use them.

Previous editions show intent... yes I know that is a dirty word here but some of us understand why it is needed at times.

Yeah, because the US is the Ruler of the World. Protip, read the GW Website. They say themselves the FAQ's are house rules.


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Afrikan Blonde wrote:The last eldar codex had a piece of wargear that allowed the vehicle to shoot during the movement phase which was an effective counter to siren princes. This sets a precedent that an action can occur during a non action phase.

Last Eldar Codex isn't used anymore.

Again, Will you let me DeepStrike, Shoot then assault my Space Wolves?

Gwar are you advocating against the use of GW FAQs when they don't agree with your POV?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Gwar are you advocating against the use of GW FAQs when they don't agree with your POV?

No, I am against using GW FAQ's when they try to pass them off as official rule changes. And STILL haven't answered my question.

Yes Gwar, we're all aware of your opinion of the FAQs. And Blonde, quit bringing up previopus edition stuff, it means nothing.

I was using a previous edition to help establish intent and set precedents.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I was using a previous edition to help establish intent and set precedents.

Yeah, and you still haven't answered my question about my space wolves. By now I hope everyone sees you for the uselss troll that you are (not the good troll like me.)

Your question was unclear to me. What exactly do you want to know?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Your question was unclear to me. What exactly do you want to know?

Unclear? I have stated it 3 times.

Slightly edited Question so you understand it:
As you seem to have a fetish for 3rd ed rules, would it be ok for me to Move my Space Wolf Rhinos 12", Disembark, Shoot their Bolters and then Assault a different unit than the one they shot at, as It was possible in 3rd edition because that was the framework the rules were written in?

I think everyone knows the answer is no. I understand your point but it is not always as cut and dry as that.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I think everyone knows the answer is no. I understand your point but it is not always as cut and dry as that.

Wow, Hypocritical much? You go off spewing off about 3rd ed rules having some meaning for Daemonhunters, but suddenly they do not apply to my Space Wolves?

You are being over dramatic at this point.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:You are being over dramatic at this point.

No, You are just being hypocritical.

Gwar! wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:You are being over dramatic at this point.

No, You are just being hypocritical.

You are both right!

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:You are being over dramatic at this point.

No, You are just being hypocritical.

You are both right!

Yeah, but being overly dramatical is excusable. Being a Hypocrite is Bad M'kay?

My examples were cited to show how to use an older edition of the rules to examine how rules from a codex written at that time work in correlation to 5th edition. The DH codex is a can of worms because the developers have opted for codex trumps rulebook instead of going back and doing their work like they should.

You are advocating twisting the rules if you really want to advocate SW rhino rush. Nowhere in the SW codex does it say you can assault the same turn you disembark from a moving rhino.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:My examples were cited to show how to use an older edition of the rules to examine how rules from a codex written at that time work in correlation to 5th edition. The DH codex is a can of worms because the developers have opted for codex trumps rulebook instead of going back and doing their work like they should.

You are advocating twisting the rules if you really want to advocate SW rhino rush. Nowhere in the SW codex does it say you can assault the same turn you disembark from a moving rhino.

Nowhere in the Daemonhunters codex does it say Holocaust is a Shooting attack.

Why are you repeating yourself?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Why are you repeating yourself?

Pot, meet Kettle.


Kettle, Pot.

At this point, It's over.

I don't think it's a psychic shooting attack, as codex doesn't say so.

Did you read the post by Don Mondo?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Did you read the post by Don Mondo?

i did but I don't agree with it so I'm ignoring that house rule

I am okay with that.

I treat guidance from official GW rules answer sources as having the same weight as the printed rules, but that one just looks like a mistake. Probably a good idea to bring it to their attention. It is entirely possible they haven't even noticed it.

If you ignore one then there is no reason why an opponent can't ignore another.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:If you ignore one then there is no reason why an opponent can't ignore another.

Or you and your opponent could play by the rules, thus negating the need to ignore house rules altogether!

Tri wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Did you read the post by Don Mondo?

i did but I don't agree with it so I'm ignoring that house rule

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I am okay with that.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:If you ignore one then there is no reason why an opponent can't ignore another.

... Thing is I only turn to the FAQ if i have a problem playing with a rule ... I have no problem using holocaust so no reason to use the FAQ if i got in a debate about holocaust with some one the FAQ still would be no uses unless the debate was about where it counted as a shooting attack.

and to be honest the fact if its treated as a shooting attack, that happens in the assault phase, it creates more problems. By RAW a shooting attack can't happen in CC. The fact that it takes place at I1 just means every one gets their attack before they're killed off.

Don't you run in the shooting phase?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Don't you run in the shooting phase?

What does that have to do with anything?

If you don't understand I don't think it will help if I try to explain.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:If you don't understand I don't think it will help if I try to explain.

No, please, explain. I wanna hear your mad explanation.

You said that GW does not by RAW allow an action to occur in a non action phase. This proves you are wrong.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:You said that GW does not by RAW allow an action to occur in a non action phase. This proves you are wrong.

wth?

You can move in the shooting phase so why can you not shoot in the assault phase? It is the RAW by the DH codex since codex trumps rulebook.

. . .

Wow.

Just wow.

You did not read the book or the posts, did you?

Did you?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Did you?

You are an idiot.

Also the rules explicitly let you run instead of shooting. The rules do not let you shoot in the Assault phase.

Ok so the reason why you can move in the shooting phase is because there is a rule in the rulebook called run.

I dont think anyone would ever give you crap if you used holocaust and did not scatter the template (although I know that is irrelevant to the rules discussion)

If you take the FAQ for gospel truth, you can't use the power. It is just another of the useless psychic power that the daemonhunters posess.

If the FAQ is just house rules, then disregard them, read the codex, and follow the rules in the codex, as they say in the codex. Wait here I will break them down for you: 1)"Holocaust is a psychic power that can be used in the Daemonhunter's assault phase, at an effective initative of 1." Ok so this means that it can only be used during your assault, not your enemies, at initiative 1. 2)" If the psychic test is passed, place the ordanance template anywhere in contact with the psycher (or brother captain in the case of a unit of terminators)." This means that you have to pass a psychic test and place the large blast template over the enemy as long as a smidge is touching the base of the psychic model. 3)"All models, friend or foe, under the template suffer a strength 5 hit with armour saves taken as normal. Those partially under the template take a hit on a dice roll of 4+." This means that if you are fully under the template you get a str 5 hit automatically. If you are partially under the template (meaning you are not all the way under the template) you get hit on 4+, but the nice thing is that you still get your armor save. 4) "If a grey knight terminator squad uses this power and suffers a perils of the warp attack, it will affect every member of the squad at the same strength value." This means that if you are terminators using it and you get a perils of the warp, it hurts everyone, sucky day. 5)"Any and all wounds inflicted by this power count towards the combat result." This means that any wounds that happen (friend or foe) go towards seeing who won the combat.

Now I think this is how you should play this psychic power, it is in line with all 5th edition rules and shouldn't cause any problems. I don't know gak about 3rd edition, but in 5th edition this it seems to work.

Thank you.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Thank you.

He wasn't agreeing with you.

so you were saying that you can't use holocaust?

Gwar and I have butt heads much lately, but finally we freakin' agree on something.

DOODZ! Damage caused during the assault phase are not shooting attacks. I don't care how they are resolved, they are not shooting attacks. Those happen during the shooting phase. Just like damage caused during the movement phase are not shooting attacks.

Grey Knight Luke wrote:If you take the FAQ for gospel truth, you can't use the power. It is just another of the useless psychic power that the daemonhunters posess.

1. Go by the FAQ and say it is a shooting attack
2. Try to commit a shooting action in the assault phase by using Holocaust.
3. Action fails because you have a general rules conflict (shooting not being allowed during assault), unless some specific rule overrides the general conflict.
4. See the first line of the Holocaust power that says that it may be used in the Daemonhunters' Assault phase.
5. Action succeeds because it has a specific override to the general conflict.

There, that's out of the way. Next. Does the template scatter?

1. Go by the FAQ and say it is a shooting attack
2. If it follows the shooting rules, and has blast in the type category of its profile, it uses the blast rules.
3. Look for the profile, find that since it doesn't exist, it can't be a blast weapon.
4. Use the special and unique rules for determining hits using Holocaust that you are given, which do not include rolling scatter.

Are we done now?

Dashofpepper wrote:Gwar and I have butt heads much lately, but finally we freakin' agree on something.

DOODZ! Damage caused during the assault phase are not shooting attacks. I don't care how they are resolved, they are not shooting attacks. Those happen during the shooting phase. Just like damage caused during the movement phase are not shooting attacks.

we all know what happened with that FAQ ... some one that doesn't use the DH skimmed through looking for psychic shooting attacks, saw that holocaust used the large blast and put 2 and 2 together and got 8. Thank god its a house rule and it can be ignored ...

so you use the FAQ, you say it is usable because codex trumps rulebook.

Codex trumps rulebook then, don't roll for scatter because it specifically tells you what to do. and it doesn't tell me to roll for scatter, it tells me exactly how to place the template, as well as how each model is wounded.

BTW, when exactly should i roll for scatter with this psychic attack?

Grey Knight Luke wrote:so you use the FAQ, you say it is usable because codex trumps rulebook.

Codex trumps rulebook then, don't roll for scatter because it specifically tells you what to do. and it doesn't tell me to roll for scatter, it tells me exactly how to place the template, as well as how each model is wounded.

BTW, when exactly should i roll for scatter with this psychic attack?

only time you roll for scatter is when you have a weapons profile with blast in it for example

The model my make also has a psychic shooting attack, it use the following profile
Range 48" Str:4 AP:5 Heavy, blast

I agree with you.

Is Nurgle's Rot considered a psychic shooting attack? I don't have my rules with me right now.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Is Nurgle's Rot considered a psychic shooting attack? I don't have my rules with me right now.

That is a shame, because these forums are not a substitute for codexes.

And FYI, it is done in place of a shooting attack, but has it's own special rules to allow it to affect models in a unique way.

Do the rules specifically state that it's unique?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Do the rules specifically state that it's unique?

Yeah it kind of does. It even explicitly allows you to use it in Close Combat, and to affect models in Close combat. That makes it unique.

Sounds like it has something in common with holocaust then.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Sounds like it has something in common with holocaust then.

Nope, because it is done in the shooting phase, and is a shooting attack. Holocaust is not done in the shooting phase and does not use the shooting rules.

I thought you can cast rot in the close combat phase like Boon of Mutation. Like I said I don't have my rules with me.

Afrikan Blonde wrote: I thought you can cast rot in the close combat phase like Boon of Mutation. Like I said I don't have my rules with me.

You can cast rot in the shooting phase even if you are Locked in Close Combat at the time

Live bait is often used while trolling.

THIS THREAD

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I disagree with you. There are other instances of shooting attacks that are psychic and are not necessarily called out as a shooting attack. For instance lash was later referred to by GW as a shooting attack. It is also obvious that hit on 4+ for models partially covered was in reference to the old rules for blast templates when this codex was released. Are you aware of older versions of the rules?

I realize I stopped reading each post on page 2 (of a billion) and am certain this has been covered, but I will do so now.

It is NOT a shooting attack because it has NO shooting profile. Otherwise it would be listed in the 'weapons' section with a full profile. It doesn't say it is a blast weapon, nor anything else like that. It states it uses a template to guage who would be hit. It also never states he rolls to shoot, which is where a deviation would happen.

Please also keep in mind that even IF it was a shooting weapon (with needed profile) it has a specific set of rules, which trumps the shooting rules.

I hope this helps.

Afriken Blonde in regards to you using old codices and rules to "set precidents" i'd like to point out that your arguement can be turned on its head. The simple fact that the rules are no longer in use could be used as evidence that your arguement is wrong, as if GW had wanted the old rules to be any kind of precident, they'd of continued them in 5th edition.

The fact they are gone in modern rules really proves that what you consider a precident is not a precident, but rather GW decided against the rules they once had.

A better precident would be swooping hawk grenade packs, they are used in the movement phase yet still do damage, and they specifically tell you how to scatter as the usual shooting rules do not apply. But of course this precident doesn't really agree with your arguement, so it has been ignored.

It might also help to notice that Holocaust is closer to a flamer than a missile launcher. To determine hits, you place a template down with the edge touching the shooter, rather than firing a projectile that explodes. That's a flamer mechanic.

You don't roll scatter for a flamer template. You don't roll scatter for the customer template weapon that Holocaust is.

Codex trumps rulebook so yes the old rules are still in effect. I don't think it really matters whether or not it is a shooting attack. I asked the question to make sure about whether or not the blast template would scatter. I'm not trying to get over on anyone.

Codices only trump rulebook in certain circumstances. That statement is not a Draconian rule for every circumstance.

If you can make a codex work within the current rules you must do so, only if a codex explicitely tells you to ignore a rule should you do so.

Also Codex trumps rulebook is different altogether from Codex makes you use last edition rules. That is not true. Ghazghulls Waaagh doesn't allow you to move 6 inches base anymore because of how it interacts with the new rules.

Legacy codices may interact with new rules in different ways to how they used to, but that doesnt mean you should ignore the new rules. it means you should make the legacy codices fit with the new rules.

Codex does not trump Main rules.

Specific trumps general.

Generally, the main rules are not as specific, thus the confusion.

To get back the OP's original question, no, the template used for Holocaust does not scatter because the rules for Holocaust detail how the template is placed, which does not include any reference to scattering the template. If you need a 5th Ed example of template placement that does not scatter, refer to flamer templates or the Vortex of Doom power in the Space marine Codex, which places the template center on the Librarian without scatter if the psychic test is failed. Both examples reflect specific rules for placing templates in the same manner is detailed under Holocaust.

Rerally, the only different between Holocaust and a flamer is which phase it's used in, which template is used, and which models may be hit by after the template is placed.

SJ

I need a cat avatar.

jeffersonian000 wrote:To get back the OP's original question, no, the template used for Holocaust does not scatter because the rules for Holocaust detail how the template is placed, which does not include any reference to scattering the template. If you need a 5th Ed example of template placement that does not scatter, refer to flamer templates or the Vortex of Doom power in the Space marine Codex, which places the template center on the Librarian without scatter if the psychic test is failed. Both examples reflect specific rules for placing templates in the same manner is detailed under Holocaust.

Rerally, the only different between Holocaust and a flamer is which phase it's used in, which template is used, and which models may be hit by after the template is placed.

SJ

Sounds familiar. Pretty much exactly what I already posted. I don't think he is listening, he just wants to believe what he wants.

After reading the rules I don't see how this is even an arguement. It says it is in the assault phase. It says to place the template anywhere in contact with the psyker. Hell it strikes at initiate 1. What makes anyone think this is a scattering shooting attack is beyond me.

JGrand wrote:After reading the rules I don't see how this is even an arguement. It says it is in the assault phase. It says to place the template anywhere in contact with the psyker. Hell it strikes at initiate 1. What makes anyone think this is a scattering shooting attack is beyond me.

GW faq'ed it to count as a shooting attack ...

If you play that it's a shooting attack would you get a cover save from the enemy unit you are engaged with in close combat?

Tri wrote:

JGrand wrote:After reading the rules I don't see how this is even an arguement. It says it is in the assault phase. It says to place the template anywhere in contact with the psyker. Hell it strikes at initiate 1. What makes anyone think this is a scattering shooting attack is beyond me.

GW faq'ed it to count as a shooting attack ...

You mean Psychic Shooting attack.

All that means is that if you intend to use Holocaust, you may not fire your stormbolter in the same turn, may not have run, and if you are able to cast two psychic powers a turn, the casting model may only 'Holocaust' once.

Ordinarily it would mean that you cannot use it if the model is locked in combat but I beleive holocaust specifically states that it IS used in CC or during the assault phase...trumping the rulebook. (I dont have my codex at work so cannot quote it)

The rules for Psychic Shooting attacks do not state that you use all other rules from the shooting section. Since the Holocaust power specifically states how to use it, and it is so different from any other shooting attack....

...No deviation.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Tri wrote:

JGrand wrote:After reading the rules I don't see how this is even an arguement. It says it is in the assault phase. It says to place the template anywhere in contact with the psyker. Hell it strikes at initiate 1. What makes anyone think this is a scattering shooting attack is beyond me.

GW faq'ed it to count as a shooting attack ...

You mean Psychic Shooting attack.

All that means is that if you intend to use Holocaust, you may not fire your stormbolter in the same turn, may not have run, and if you are able to cast two psychic powers a turn, the casting model may only 'Holocaust' once.

Ordinarily it would mean that you cannot use it if the model is locked in combat but I beleive holocaust specifically states that it IS used in CC or during the assault phase...trumping the rulebook. (I dont have my codex at work so cannot quote it)

The rules for Psychic Shooting attacks do not state that you use all other rules from the shooting section. Since the Holocaust power specifically states how to use it, and it is so different from any other shooting attack....

...No deviation.

I personally ignore GW on this as its not a shooting attack in any form if you can use 2 Psychic powers you can use this and one in the shooting phase (or shoot a storm-bolter) ... oh and Holocause never says it can be used in CC only that it strike at I1 ... if you follow GW to the letter then it can only be shot if you are not in CC but can effect a unit in CC where it will strike at I1

Some other lines of thought regarding Holocaust.
Could it be used during the assault phase even if you were not engaged in close combat?
If engaged in combat could the template be placed in a manner where it didn't fall over the unit it was in combat with, and maybe on a unit that you weren't even in combat with?

This thread is filled with:

[X] Phail
[X] Facepalm
[X] Troll
[X] Unlogic
[ ] Win
[ ] Potential
[X] Way Too Long For Subject Matter

Raland wrote:Some other lines of thought regarding Holocaust.
Could it be used during the assault phase even if you were not engaged in close combat?
If engaged in combat could the template be placed in a manner where it didn't fall over the unit it was in combat with, and maybe on a unit that you weren't even in combat with?

Well this is a massive grey area ... i would play it this way

It can be used while not in CC.
If it effects a different CC then that of Caster then then the wounds caused are added to that CC's results not the Casters CC result .




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sourclams wrote:This thread is filled with:

[X] Phail
[X] Facepalm
[X] Troll
[X] Unlogic
[ ] Win
[ ] Potential
[X] Way Too Long For Subject Matter

[X] Off topic

So does the enemy unit get a cover save? One of my opponents claims it does, which is very helpful for his daemonic troops?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So does the enemy unit get a cover save? One of my opponents claims it does, which is very helpful for his daemonic troops?

Cover saves may never be taken in the assault phase.

Sounds good to me!

Gwar! is right as always.

Mod:

This thread is generating complaints under Rule no.1, which are fully justified from what I have read.

PMs have been sent to people.

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