I rolled up to Phoenix Games in Atlanta for the 'Ardboyz round 1.

Atlanta had several places hosting the event, so there weren't as many people as you'd expect for a big city. We had 16 people at Phoenix, and I've heard that there were similar amounts at the other 2 places. Balkanization fail.

My List

Round 1:

Enemy list:

Abaddon the Despoiler
4 Chaos Terminators w/various wargear, MoT
Land Raider (dedicated transport)
10 CSM in Rhino w/2 plasma guns, pfist, MoT
10 CSM in Rhino w/2 melta guns, pfist, MoT
10 Plague Marines in Rhino w/2 melta guns, pfist
10 Plague Marines in Rhino w/2 melta guns, pfist
Vindicator
Defiler
3 Obliterators

Top 1:

He went first, drove forward with his PM's, walked forward with his Defiler + Vindicator, Drove forward with his Land Raider He shoots down 2 Destroyers with searchlights + his HS.

Bottom 1:

Destroyers + Immortals + Monoliths shoot, all make night fight rolls, sum result is missing combi bolter from a rhino.

Top 2:

He continues south, reaching assault range all along the line, Abaddon + Terminators jump out, beat up my Immortals, kill 9, break remainder. They only run 2 inches though.

Bottom 2:

Immortals run 4 inches, still on board, 3 remaining shoot Land Raider, immobilizing it. This strands Abaddon in lower left. Other shooting STILL ineffective, but I'm able to withdraw behind the liths, to bunch up in the center. Ah, also I do immobilize one of his troops rhinos. The Deceiver charges his Defiler, and destroys it.

Top 3:

He continues to close with his PM's rhinos, and even the CSM's rhinos are approaching. He shoots on the destroyers, he's now killed a whole unit and damaged the other two. His Vindicator immobilizes a Monolith.

Bottom 3:

I'm enraged. With luck this good, he hasn't phased me out yet? 3 rounds of rhino invincibility should be more than enough. In any case, my soldiers walk on this round, in the middle of my guys, so I need to take it to him, or lose. My monolith chances a trip through difficult terrain, and tank shock's Abaddon's unit as they chase me. He fails leadership. Ha!

My Destroyers finally pop one of the PM's rhinos, and the clustered PM's are then hit with a pie plate, killing 2/3. warriors + random shooting does good damage to the squad of his that hopped out of his immobilized rhino, breaking the CSM, who fall back.

Deceiver opens the other Rhino, leaving him with just one mobile rhino, and troops at the Deceiver's feet.

Top 4:

CSM rally, Abaddon is still within 6", runs again. He runs the soldiers away from Deceiver into his immobilized Land Raider (??). He drives his last rhino around my wall. He shoots at the Destroyers, they are down to one squad now, though it's oversized. He also puts some plasma cannon fire into the clustered warriors, doing good damage.

He fires his Vindicator (which got immobilized in terrain despite a dozer blade), at the Lith that just Pwhipped the Plague Marines, and the template drifts onto selfsame marines, destroying them all. Hah!

Bottom 4:

With one of his squads under strength and having just fallen back, and the other PM squad destroyed, half my board is freed up, and my guys expand that way. With the other PM squad still in their rhino and Abaddon fleeing and the other CMS squad hiding in an immobilized Land Raider the other half is also exposed, albeit less so. I fire on his heavy support this round, taking out the Vindicator and also hammering the guys who fell back. Deceiver escorts Abaddon, misses last rhino.

Top 5:

Abaddon continues legging it. His shooting from the Oblits is fortunate, and destroys the last Destroyer squad.

Bottom 5: I move to my objectives, I'm only 4 above Phase Out at this point (just 1.5 squads of Warriors left), so I'm playing cautious.

Top 6: He claims the middle objective with his 3 man squad, uses his Plague Marine squad to contest my lower left objective.

Bottom 6: I take my lower right objective, shoot his squad off the center objective and claim it with the tiny warrior squad going through a lith.

Ultimately, I claim 21 points, he gets 2. It was, as always with the crons, a much tougher game than it looked. I had 13 warriors left at game's end. 2 more kills would have gotten him phase out. Nonetheless, the grim price of going for phase out is that if you fall up short, the crons will take all the objectives, since they've been going for them.

Game #2:

Vs. Ultramarines

Kahn, w/command squad
2 tac squads in rhinos
Shrike w/10 vanguard vets
2 Landspeeders w/multi-meltas
2 preds, one las/las, other las/HB
1 Dread, Las/CCW
Scout squad w/Missile launcher
1 Bike squad w/attack bike, other upgardes

No need for a long batrep here, he had only played for 8 months, never played vs. Necrons. I massacred him, leaving only a scout squad alive, and losing my two immortal squads and a Monolith. I was able to focus on bonus points, so I got 23 out of this slaughter.

Last game:

Vs. Mech Eldar:

Farseer w/jetbike
warlock council on jetbikes
2 Dire Avenger squads in Wave Serpents
1 3 man jetbike squad
3 Fire Prisms
3 Warp Spider squads

Top 1:

He fires at the monolith wall with his prisms, which are hiding in his corner. Doesn't do anything, despite twin linking into a railgun shot. He shoots down a destroye with his NW (I'm in SW), wave serpent.

Bottom 1:

I immobilize a Lith in terrain. Dang it. I shoot my lith's whips at his fortuned jetbike unit, killing 3, one with each whip. I shoot the destroyers at his NW wave serpent, tearing off its guns, shaking it and immobilizing it.

Top 2:

His reserves don't arrive. His Jetseer council charges Big D, who misdirects. His NW squad hops out of their WS, can't spread out due to failed move + run rolls.

Bottom 2:

I Monolith whips the downed WS, also catching most of squad. They lose about half the squad. The WS explodes, killing once again about half. Destroyers finish them. Other guass fire concentrates on jetlock squad, doing nothing through the fortune. Deceiver charges in, taking 3 wounds and killing 3.

Top 3:

2 Warp Spider squads DS, killing my smaller destroyer squad and mangling the other down to 2. His prisms destroy a Lith. Deceiver misdirects.

Bottom 3:

Shooting kills a whole Warp Spider squad. Deceiver charges back in, kills farseer + all but last guy in warlock squad.

Top 4: His second WS squad comes in, goes to SE corner to blast down my scoring unit over there. With the aid of the prisms almost does so, but they hug the cover and survive with one left. First WS squad moves up to where the DA died, heading for safer ground. Deceiver kills last warlock.

Bottom 4: Deceiver scares the top WS squad off board, which gives me the NW objective.

Over the course of the game I try half heartedly to get him off the SE objective, then contest at the last second with a squad of destroyers. He destroys another lith with his fire prisms in the top of 6. I win by massacre, 21-0.


Ultimately, I'm the winner of the tournament with 65 points.

Next up was Orks, third was Space Marines.

Congratulations! And proof that a well played army is a winning army, despite what other people say!

And besides, necrons shine better at higher point games!

Nice man I was wondering how it'd turn out there I played in Marietta at Gigabites cafe. Our number one was a Chaos be cafeful if you play him if his army makes it remotely close he'll cut through you like a hot samuri sword through butter. I know he did it to me after I had massacared my last 3 opponents with that list. (2 practice games outside the tournament)

Nice report. Its good to see Necrons win a tournament.

Woot! I freakin' LOVE seeing Necrons winning. Tired of seeing people gripe about how sub-par they are, while ignoring any tactical advice on how to play them well. Necrons tied for 2nd place today in Cary, NC with a mech vet IG list, so there's another necron army headed to semi-finals.

I'm glad player skills (and undoubtedly luck) in this tourney is showing that any army handled properly can win....

Its good to see that Necrons can still win. Alot of people dump on them for being weak.

That list has only two troop choices. A good player will try their best to kill them. I don't see this list getting past the semi finals. I don't mean to be a jerk, just honest.

I don't feel like fielding this one again, can I get some audience participation here? Why has no one killed my troop choices yet?

Thumbs Up 40kEnthusiast!

Gotta love that over used canard.

Yeah, go ahead, blast at my spread out warriors squads who aren't even participating in the battle so my boat tons of destroyers/immortals can keep pounding on you.

...makes sense...

And they are in reserve, and/or hiding behind monoliths. At least it wasn't "Ignore the Monoliths, go for phaseout", which may be the #1 internet Necron meme.

With only 47 Necron models (if I can add correctly this morning), I'm surprised that people weren't trying to phase you out. Did the Deceiver and Liths draw that much fire away from the rest of your army?

Believe me, it's MUCH harder than it looks to get to phase out with so many T5 models, and the only T4 models completley out of the battle untill the last turns.

And you really can't ignore Big D, he's capable to inflicting so much damage. Just ask 30 Boys, 6 Nob Bikers, a Warboss Biker, Typhus and 4 Termies. (his total kills from a game I played last night)

Well, imagine you are playing a fairly typical list, you've got say X heavy weapons.

You can shoot them at the Deceiver for every 6 SM heavy weapons you shoot at him you should get a wound on him.
You can shoot them at a Monolith, by and large, 6 will give you a roll on the table, most likely a glance.
You can shoot them at Destroyers/Immortals/Warriors in cover, 6 will hit 4 times, wound 4 times (rounded), 2 will make cover saves, one will get up.

Most people prefer to shoot their weapons at Monoliths/The Deceiver, particularly as the crons can go through a lith if they are dealing damage.

Truthfully, the only way to Phase Out Necrons is in assault, or if they get unlucky with morale. I don't do CC, just move/port away while pouring on the fire, Deceiver plays goalie.

EDIT: An exception to the above may be the new IG codex. I haven't battled it yet, but my theoryhammer says they may be able to shoot the crons straight off the board. Key to a battle with them, I think, would be hiding my guys behind the Monoliths. I'm hoping to battle a good IG list in round 2, find out how that goes.

I would shoot everything as much as possible at the Warriors in objective based missions then clean up in the assault phase. I think probably your opponents fail to see this inherent weakness in your list. It is a great list for 4th edition but not that good for 5th edition in my opinion.

??
Shoot and charge warriors that are either:

1) in reserve
2) hiding behind the monoliths
3) hiding behind the 'liths w/ Big D in front.


......Doesn't work.

People act like Monoliths are indestructible. Enough lascannons will ruin their day quickly then you can drop pie plates on the Warriors. Snipers are the bane of Big D.

Nice job, anyone gets props for winning ard boys with necrons... you have to get match ups in your favor (which you did), but these days (myself included) I don't really worry about necrons cause most of the major lists have things that can deal with monos and they simply can't kill enough to prevent your warriors from dieing once they arrive on the board. 15 destroyers can be quite nasty but can get shot out of the sky pretty fast vs deep striking units.


Anyways props man as it takes skill to win with crons these days no matter what happened.

Yeah, the people that are downing this list aren't thinking it through.


How do you shoot warriors who aren't on the board? When they come on the board, they are hiding behind 3 Monoliths. While you are overly concentrated on the Warriors, the Monoliths/Destroyers, and Immortals are wearing your butt out. If you try and assault, you have to assault the Monoliths, and the Deceiver. The Deceiver will step out of combat, so your assault on him will fail. You will need 4s to hit the Monolith, and we all know how hard they are to kill.

I have played this list several times and I can assure you, it just isn't that easy to beat. You have to provide enough threats that the Deceiver can't stop them all from hitting your lines, and they all have to survive all the shooting they will take on the way in. Do some math on that and let me know how it works out.


Either way, its not unstoppable, but its hard to beat. When/if you get them in combat, you have 1 turn to kill the squad, if you don't kill it, the squad will teleport through a Monolith, get some extra WBB rolls where applicable, and then the army will shoot your assault unit to death. Ask me how I know....



Clay

Ignore the Monoliths, go for phaseout.

Please do try.

it's NOT easy with a list played this way.

Primarch wrote:Yeah, the people that are downing this list aren't thinking it through.


How do you shoot warriors who aren't on the board? When they come on the board, they are hiding behind 3 Monoliths. While you are overly concentrated on the Warriors, the Monoliths/Destroyers, and Immortals are wearing your butt out. If you try and assault, you have to assault the Monoliths, and the Deceiver. The Deceiver will step out of combat, so your assault on him will fail. You will need 4s to hit the Monolith, and we all know how hard they are to kill.

I have played this list several times and I can assure you, it just isn't that easy to beat. You have to provide enough threats that the Deceiver can't stop them all from hitting your lines, and they all have to survive all the shooting they will take on the way in. Do some math on that and let me know how it works out.


Either way, its not unstoppable, but its hard to beat. When/if you get them in combat, you have 1 turn to kill the squad, if you don't kill it, the squad will teleport through a Monolith, get some extra WBB rolls where applicable, and then the army will shoot your assault unit to death. Ask me how I know....



Clay

I never said it was easy but monos dont really kill anything with their shooting and if your say imp guard and driving toward them with demos, tri mg vets in chims its not as bad as your making it.

Ur in melta range by turn 2-3 at the latest, and all your str 10 guns, ordance blast weps are still pounding away at the monos, sure the deceiver is scary but if U never charge him and block him with cheep chims you can limit what he can do.

Im not saying its an easy list but if you have one of the top tier books then crons simply can't stand up to you. Of course it doesn't show here because he got prime match ups but if he played guard orks, chaos, even tau it would have been a different story.

Still don't think im trying to take anything away from you...a win is a win especially with crons all im saying is this list is not a list to be feared if your prepared (has less to do with the player, and more to do with the fact that the necron book is not very good in a competitive setting when compared to the newer books)

Please do try.

it's NOT easy with a list played this way.

Player-A is one of 40kE's clubmates lol.

Great to see solid results. You taking this list all the way through?

To me it sounds like you are making the list sound better than it is. Just shoot up the monoliths while the Warriors are in reserve. There are plenty of guns out there that can drop them. Even if you can just immobilize them it greatly reduces their threat.

Firstly, congratulations on your win.

Out of curiosity, why did the Eldar play charge a Seer Council into The Deceiver? That seems like the stupidest thing he could have done, especially with Eldar-raping Destroyers fielded en masse. Even with a full council (which he didn't have due to casualties), he probably wouldn't kill it on the charge, and he's virtually guaranteed to lose his only Farseer in return to Instant Death.

Danny Internets wrote:Firstly, congratulations on your win.

Out of curiosity, why did the Eldar play charge a Seer Council into The Deceiver? That seems like the stupidest thing he could have done, especially with Eldar-raping Destroyers fielded en masse. Even with a full council (which he didn't have due to casualties), he probably wouldn't kill it on the charge, and he's virtually guaranteed to lose his only Farseer in return to Instant Death.

If he was smart he would have speared/ witch bladed the 3 monos in 1 turn and let the deceaver charge him.....but thats ard boys round 1 for u!

He didn't know the Deceiver could misdirect, I think. I was figuring he would charge the monoliths, then I'd countercharge with Deceiver over the rubble.

On another topic, though, I think a seer council has decent odds if Big D is silly enough to take the charge. Hit on 4's, wound on 2's, Deceiver 4+'s the save. So, every 5 attacks does a wound? Seems like 3 wounds wouldn't be out of character, his counter kills 1 warlock, and the farseer. Next round they kill him and lose another 2-3? bad trade points-wise, but I'd do it if I was an Eldar. Getting D off the table is a big deal.

Also, about the Monolith shooting not really killing anything. That's changed in 5th edition. The Particle Whip is comparable to a railgun when it comes to vehicle popping and also pie plates at s9 ap 3.

Particle whip math:

A hit is obviously ideal.
1/3 chance of direct hit.
Otherwise, scattering 2" or less is tolerable, so rolling a 6 or less is adequate for anti-vehicle purposes.
15/36 chance of doing so.

So, to miss, you need to not roll a hit (2/3) and scatter > 2", 21/36. Odds of doing both is 42/108, or 7/18. Thus, odds of hitting are 11/18. For comparison, bs 4 is 12/18 odds of hitting. When you take into account scattering in a direction where 3 inches is adequate, and just big vehicles as targets, or scattering onto another vehicle, I usually just use bs 4 as a good estimate of how likely I am to get a hit with a lith.

In terms of damage you are s9 with the Ordnance rule, so you roll 2d6 and take the highest. 5/9 of the time you will get a 5 on at least one of the dice. Playing around with the math you'll find s9 Ord is > s10 until you hit AV 14.

So, shoot 3 liths at light vehicles, 2 hit and pen, one explodes or is wrecked, other stops (either stunned or immobilized is more likely than weapon destroyed). Shoot 3 liths at heavy vehicles, 2 hit, one pens, get an AP 1 roll on the chart. You add in the Gauss from the Destroyers/Immortals, and its an ugly rush for vehicles trying to cross the field.

On another topic, though, I think a seer council has decent odds if Big D is silly enough to take the charge. Hit on 4's, wound on 2's, Deceiver 4+'s the save. So, every 5 attacks does a wound? Seems like 3 wounds wouldn't be out of character, his counter kills 1 warlock, and the farseer. Next round they kill him and lose another 2-3? bad trade points-wise, but I'd do it if I was an Eldar. Getting D off the table is a big deal.

The odds of killing the Deceiver are good, but he loses his only Farseer, leaving the Council dead in the water without Fortune. He'd have been better off going for the Monoliths, or skirting around the flanks picking off units outside of Deceiver counter-charge range. He also could have used them to go after the Warriors after they came in from reserve.

It just seems like every target except the Deceiver would have been a good one.

Umm, Melta guns are your answer to Monoliths? How much do you play again? If thats your strat, then go buy some Missle Launchers and stay far away from them and shoot them that way. I know the MG gets a bonus on the chart, but you still need 6s after hitting for anything to happen.



Clay

Good report, like the rest, lets me read, and know what to be ready for next year.

But on another note, looking through all of these battle reports from ard boyz everyone is a winner? Its okay to post you lost because then you can help everyone else too!!!

But good job! Good luck in the next round hope you win that one too! So we can see some more battle reports!

Ace

Danny Internets wrote:

On another topic, though, I think a seer council has decent odds if Big D is silly enough to take the charge. Hit on 4's, wound on 2's, Deceiver 4+'s the save. So, every 5 attacks does a wound? Seems like 3 wounds wouldn't be out of character, his counter kills 1 warlock, and the farseer. Next round they kill him and lose another 2-3? bad trade points-wise, but I'd do it if I was an Eldar. Getting D off the table is a big deal.

The odds of killing the Deceiver are good, but he loses his only Farseer, leaving the Council dead in the water without Fortune. He'd have been better off going for the Monoliths, or skirting around the flanks picking off units outside of Deceiver counter-charge range. He also could have used them to go after the Warriors after they came in from reserve.

It just seems like every target except the Deceiver would have been a good one.

Why is his farseer even in combat, he should be able to wrap around the deceaver with bikes so that his farseer doesn't see combat. (Assuming other units don't add on)

Primarch wrote:Umm, Melta guns are your answer to Monoliths? How much do you play again? If thats your strat, then go buy some Missle Launchers and stay far away from them and shoot them that way. I know the MG gets a bonus on the chart, but you still need 6s after hitting for anything to happen.



Clay

Not my answer just an example of one of the many things guard have that can kill monos. Sure monos are really hard to pop with melta guns but when you have 15 or so of them + str10 pie plates you should be able to pop 1-2 of them which will break the back of the necron army.

A MG needs a 6 to glance and a 6 to destroy the 'lith. (No extra D6 for 1/2 range because of living metal.)

Your odds of doing that AFTER getting a hit are 2.7%

I would love for you to shoot meltas at my liths.

SsevenN wrote:A MG needs a 6 to glance and a 6 to destroy the 'lith. (No extra D6 for 1/2 range because of living metal.)

Your odds of doing that AFTER getting a hit are 2.7%

I would love for you to shoot meltas at my liths.

I know that lol but 6 and 6 again is not impossible when your rolling 9+ dice, + its not like thats the only thing a guard army has.

Never tell me the odds, math hammer is nice to have but it does not win you games. If there is nothing else worth firing at (and there won't be if theres just 3 monos on the table) then theres nothing wrong with spamimg meltas at them

Ur in melta range by turn 2-3 at the latest, and all your str 10 guns, ordance blast weps are still pounding away at the monos, sure the deceiver is scary but if U never charge him and block him with cheep chims you can limit what he can do.

I get what you are saying, but you are sharing tactics in an open form that just aren't that strong.

you need 37 melta gun HITS to have any guranteed results, counting on fluky luck shots might be your style, but it's not good advice.

C'tan ignore all terrain and models when they move, you can't box him in with anything short of 12 tanks touching shoulder to shoulder in a 2 layered hexagon. (of course they can't end their movement IN something)

SsevenN wrote:Please do try.

it's NOT easy with a list played this way.

It was a joke in response to 40ke's "At least it wasn't 'Ignore the Monoliths, go for phaseout', which may be the #1 internet Necron meme."


Really, I think the biggest problem is that so many people play Necrons badly that people assume the strategy that worked on Necron player #27 will work on all necrons everywhere. Sorry, but it's just not the case. The difference in playing a real Necron player vs. a scrubby one is that of night and day.

Ive noticed a trend. The guys who play against good Necron lists, with good players fielding them, and the actual Necron players themselves with the good lists think this list is pretty solid. The guys who have never played against it, and just want to theory it to death are the naysayers....

Anyone else notice this trend?



Clay

@ player-a, Primarch; I'm glad we agree.

Yeah no one here is saying Necrons are the best, IMHO they are still "tier 3" whatever that tells you.

But the fact is there are strong ways to play them in 5th and it doesn't involve the "you need more warriors for phase-out, and where are your res orbs and VoS?" non-sense.

Why is his farseer even in combat, he should be able to wrap around the deceaver with bikes so that his farseer doesn't see combat. (Assuming other units don't add on)

Yeah that's a good point--I'm not used to HQ units not wanting to get in combat but there's really no reason to let the Farseer attack (or get attacked). He only has to move first during pile-in and defenders react moves.

Krootman wrote:

SsevenN wrote:A MG needs a 6 to glance and a 6 to destroy the 'lith. (No extra D6 for 1/2 range because of living metal.)

Your odds of doing that AFTER getting a hit are 2.7%

I would love for you to shoot meltas at my liths.

I know that lol but 6 and 6 again is not impossible when your rolling 9+ dice, + its not like thats the only thing a guard army has.

Never tell me the odds, math hammer is nice to have but it does not win you games. If there is nothing else worth firing at (and there won't be if theres just 3 monos on the table) then theres nothing wrong with spamimg meltas at them

10man Vet Squad, 3 Meltaguns, Demolitions, Vendetta- 260 points. You have 3 Str 9 TL shots, 3 Str 8 shots, and 10 str8 attacks needing 4+ (if you moved) attacks in assault. And that is just one unit. I would be running 3 such units... I'm quite sure I can pop 1 per turn, possibly more.

Paquito, keep in mind that those meltabombs are not AP 1 and therefore cannot ever kill a Monolith.

With 9 TL lascannons + 9 meltagun shots per turn (from the 3 units and their Vendettas) you only have a 54% chance of killing a Monolith per turn.

Ahh, your right. Still though, thats alot of fire power. Moving my Company command squad near, and TL the meltas, aswell as the 4 meltas in his unit if needbe. Like I said, I think 1 10man squad would be enough to pop a mono a turn, and 4 of my 5 troop choices are built that way. This is not counting, Pask in a Vanquisher, or my CCS.

I always enjoy a good Necron victory over the lesser races. Keep up the good work.

Also, Monoliths are tough as feth to get rid of, every turn you pump your 4 meltas, 3 lascannons, blah blah into the 'lith, there's still those 5-15 destroyers (depending on the list) who rape Chimeras and eat veterans for afters

Nice job! Ignore the nay sayers and theory mongers, you won and are going to the semi finals! Proof in and of itself that you played your list right, and that the list is a decent one at worst, and solid at best.

Again, congrats, and nice bat rep!

What is a good target priority against this list then? I play biker marines, but there has to be a general kill order to weaken this list to the point of having a chance against it.

If I was to play daemons against this list I would deep strike all my first wave around the Monoliths to shut down pulling units out of close combat. The Warriors and Immortals won't be able to outrun the second wave. If you can take down one or two Monoliths by the fourth turn it will strain the rest of the army. Skulltaker can take out the Deceiver.

My Grey Knights wouldn't stand a chance but I think battle sisters would have good odds with the Exorcists versus the Monoliths. Even if you just immobilize them it hurts. Generic Space Marines can pack enough heat to hurt the Monoliths... Guard can as well. Tyranids I don't know... All you can do is glance them.

Honestly I don't see dark eldar or eldar having anything that strong against this list. I would to see how orks fare. Tau with the right build could be frightening.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:If I was to play daemons against this list I would deep strike all my first wave around the Monoliths to shut down pulling units out of close combat.

Heh.

If I was to play daemons against this list I would deep strike all my first wave around the Monoliths to shut down pulling units out of close combat. The Warriors and Immortals won't be able to outrun the second wave. If you can take down one or two Monoliths by the fourth turn it will strain the rest of the army. Skulltaker can take out the Deceiver.

You make it sound so easy. Believe me, its been tried. Beating this list is not as easy as you think. If skulltaker can kill the deceiver, then the deceiver would just leave combat and kill other stuff. And do you realize the amount of walling you can do with 3 monoliths? Even with deepstriking daemons, you would not have an easy time against this. Especially not when playing someone who knows how to play well.

Ive noticed a trend. The guys who play against good Necron lists, with good players fielding them, and the actual Necron players themselves with the good lists think this list is pretty solid. The guys who have never played against it, and just want to theory it to death are the naysayers....

Anyone else notice this trend?



Clay

I second that.

Do you realize that each Blood Crusher is on a dreadnaught sized base? If there is a swarm of daemons spread out such that big D cannot be more than one inch away when he tries to misdirect he is dead. This army has real problems with daemons. Big D is not really a threat.

SsevenN wrote:

Ur in melta range by turn 2-3 at the latest, and all your str 10 guns, ordance blast weps are still pounding away at the monos, sure the deceiver is scary but if U never charge him and block him with cheep chims you can limit what he can do.

I get what you are saying, but you are sharing tactics in an open form that just aren't that strong.

you need 37 melta gun HITS to have any guranteed results, counting on fluky luck shots might be your style, but it's not good advice.

C'tan ignore all terrain and models when they move, you can't box him in with anything short of 12 tanks touching shoulder to shoulder in a 2 layered hexagon. (of course they can't end their movement IN something)

Yea your right but it is possible to block him in with a few chimas. All im saying about the melta guns is its good advice if theres nothing else worth firing on and its not likely he will melta the deceaver to death so id rather take my chance on a mono.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Do you realize that each Blood Crusher is on a dreadnaught sized base? If there is a swarm of daemons spread out such that big D cannot be more than one inch away when he tries to misdirect he is dead. This army has real problems with daemons. Big D is not really a threat.

Untrue. Misdirect is done by making a "fall back" move in the direction of your choice.

Read the "fall back" rules in the BRB, you IGNORE the units you were engaged in CC for the turn of the misdirect AND C'tan ignore all models and terrain for movement purposes. Big D will escape combat, I've misdirected out of 30 man ork mobs multiple times with no trouble.

I played against Kairos crushers list (Kairos, GUO, 3 units of 6 crushers, 3 flying DP of nurgle, troops for taking objectives), in a practice game. It was a grotesque slaughter.

We rolled mission 2, the KP one.

Everyone who scattered away from Kairos died to massed destroyer fire. Kairos got punched by the Deceiver after he misdirected through the daemons. The star god then went on to kill one of the Blood Crusher squads. The only reason there was any drama in the game at all was the DP's, one of whom got over the liths and into my backfield. I also got careless and sacrificed one of my warrior squads to the bloodcrushers for no particular reason.

Final score was:
Necrons kill:
GUO (deep strike mishap)
Kairos (facepunch)
Unit of crushers (Destroyer + Lith)
Unit of crushers (Deceiver)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers + Lith)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers + warriors + Immortals)
Plaguebearers (Immortals)
Plaguebearers (Immortals)
Pink Horrors (Liths)

For a total of 23

Daemons killed:
1 unit of warriors (crushers)
1 unit of destroyers (Nurgle DP)
1 unit of destroyers (Nurgle DP)
They also killed a few immortals, but the unit didn't break and they got lithed out
For a total of 5 KP

Not saying I've got the ultimate answer to Daemons, but their inability to destroy the Monoliths with anything but Soul Grinders (which monoliths + Necron shooting wrecks right back) makes it a game I'm confident about.

I agree with the general nature of the posts to this board. Many people have never played necrons before. Those that have likely haven't played good players. Of course, just in case they have, I play with units normally considered "bad" because of the psychological factor of facing something unknown.

Yes, the big D gets to run away unscathed.

Meltas have a very short range and anything that close is not going to last if the necron player knows anything about prioritization. In most of my games, in fact, most meltas aren't allowed to fire because they are the cheapest thing that can ID warriors.

Anyone who says that warriors are needed to bump up the phase out number is wrong. Warriors are good at two things: charging seer councils on jetbikes from reserves, and dying.

Anyone who says, "shoot the warriors, go for phase out" hasn't played a good necron player. It's quite hard, in my experience, to target units out of LoS and/or not on the table.

Anyone who says "I play more than 20 warriors" or "I deep strike monoiths" is very likely not an experienced necron player.

All that said, it is really frustrating only being able to ever cap 2 objectives. Even if we massacre every round, an ork player doing the same thing will get mundo mission bonus points because of the size and number of his troops squads.

My seven cents.

40kenthusiast wrote:I played against Kairos crushers list (Kairos, GUO, 3 units of 6 crushers, 3 flying DP of nurgle, troops for taking objectives), in a practice game. It was a grotesque slaughter.

We rolled mission 2, the KP one.

Everyone who scattered away from Kairos died to massed destroyer fire. Kairos got punched by the Deceiver after he misdirected through the daemons. The star god then went on to kill one of the Blood Crusher squads. The only reason there was any drama in the game at all was the DP's, one of whom got over the liths and into my backfield. I also got careless and sacrificed one of my warrior squads to the bloodcrushers for no particular reason.

Final score was:
Necrons kill:
GUO (deep strike mishap)
Kairos (facepunch)
Unit of crushers (Destroyer + Lith)
Unit of crushers (Deceiver)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers + Lith)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers + warriors + Immortals)
Plaguebearers (Immortals)
Plaguebearers (Immortals)
Pink Horrors (Liths)

For a total of 23

Daemons killed:
1 unit of warriors (crushers)
1 unit of destroyers (Nurgle DP)
1 unit of destroyers (Nurgle DP)
They also killed a few immortals, but the unit didn't break and they got lithed out
For a total of 5 KP

Not saying I've got the ultimate answer to Daemons, but their inability to destroy the Monoliths with anything but Soul Grinders (which monoliths + Necron shooting wrecks right back) makes it a game I'm confident about.

Yeah 40KE I do well against a fateweaver/flamer, triple DP list w/ my 'crons, this demon list looks more tuned, and it also looks like a good win.

Facepunched.....Ha!

I barely eeked out a win very against a list very similiar to this in the third round with my dark eldar. Being completely unable to kill a monolith makes it a daunting matchup. It was made worse when my big first turn assault fell short an inch or so and cost me 2 squads of wyches and my archon..... I only won by playing to the mission and by making alot of sacrifices to get on the objectives and keep him off......

Dark Eldar are no joke. Never faced em with this list, but it seems like 5th edition would really hurt them. I guess I'd just drive Liths + Deceiver onto their objectives, shoot gauss at the vehicles and keep a weather eye on the witch charge lanes. Seems like 5th edition's no massacre into combat would make that sort of thing much less scary as long as I could prevent multi-charges. Don't know how it would go, can't see the DE half of the game in my mind.

SsevenN wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Do you realize that each Blood Crusher is on a dreadnaught sized base? If there is a swarm of daemons spread out such that big D cannot be more than one inch away when he tries to misdirect he is dead. This army has real problems with daemons. Big D is not really a threat.

Untrue. Misdirect is done by making a "fall back" move in the direction of your choice.

Read the "fall back" rules in the BRB, you IGNORE the units you were engaged in CC for the turn of the misdirect AND C'tan ignore all models and terrain for movement purposes. Big D will escape combat, I've misdirected out of 30 man ork mobs multiple times with no trouble.

Sorry if you can't place the model at least one inch away from enemy units Big D is dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It sounds like your opponent is not a good player when it comes to daemons.

40kenthusiast wrote:I played against Kairos crushers list (Kairos, GUO, 3 units of 6 crushers, 3 flying DP of nurgle, troops for taking objectives), in a practice game. It was a grotesque slaughter.

We rolled mission 2, the KP one.

Everyone who scattered away from Kairos died to massed destroyer fire. Kairos got punched by the Deceiver after he misdirected through the daemons. The star god then went on to kill one of the Blood Crusher squads. The only reason there was any drama in the game at all was the DP's, one of whom got over the liths and into my backfield. I also got careless and sacrificed one of my warrior squads to the bloodcrushers for no particular reason.

Final score was:
Necrons kill:
GUO (deep strike mishap)
Kairos (facepunch)
Unit of crushers (Destroyer + Lith)
Unit of crushers (Deceiver)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers + Lith)
Nurgle DP (Destroyers + warriors + Immortals)
Plaguebearers (Immortals)
Plaguebearers (Immortals)
Pink Horrors (Liths)

For a total of 23

Daemons killed:
1 unit of warriors (crushers)
1 unit of destroyers (Nurgle DP)
1 unit of destroyers (Nurgle DP)
They also killed a few immortals, but the unit didn't break and they got lithed out
For a total of 5 KP

Not saying I've got the ultimate answer to Daemons, but their inability to destroy the Monoliths with anything but Soul Grinders (which monoliths + Necron shooting wrecks right back) makes it a game I'm confident about.

Sorry if you can't place the model at least one inch away from enemy units Big D is dead

Whatever, if you think it's easy to do, then do it.

The combined experience of ALL my opponents says it's not.

Check the Trapped rules in the rulebook. If you fallback and cannot be more than one inch away the unit is dead. It has been discussed in YMDC before if that makes you feel any better.

I have. The trapped rule specificaly EXCLUDES the unit that was engaged in CC with the falling back unit. As in that unit cannot 'trap' the falling back unit. The BRB SPECIFICALLY says that the previously engaged unit has 'missed their chance'.

OTHER units can trap big d but he falls back in any direction he chooses, and his average fall back will be 7" which means you would need to pack an entire 14" diameter bubble with units that were NOT engaged in CC with big D the turn he misdirects.

Good luck

Like a lot of things in life, it's a lot easier to say than to do. It's easy to say, "Phase out the Necrons", but it's harder to do than that. For some armies, that's the best option - to go for Phase Out - because they can't deal with the liths or Stargod.

Where are you going for semi's?

Might get to play against some nurgle if you are coming to Cleveland TN.

SsevenN wrote:I have. The trapped rule specificaly EXCLUDES the unit that was engaged in CC with the falling back unit. As in that unit cannot 'trap' the falling back unit. The BRB SPECIFICALLY says that the previously engaged unit has 'missed their chance'.

OTHER units can trap big d but he falls back in any direction he chooses, and his average fall back will be 7" which means you would need to pack an entire 14" diameter bubble with units that were NOT engaged in CC with big D the turn he misdirects.

Good luck

That is what I have been saying you - you surround him with another unit. It's easy to form up a 7" corridor around him with daemonic hordes and I have done it more than once.

Clay Williams wrote:Where are you going for semi's?

Might get to play against some nurgle if you are coming to Cleveland TN.

There's actually a local store in Atlanta that is getting to host the semi's this year, so we'll be there in all probability.

deleted.

SsevenN wrote:I have. The trapped rule specificaly EXCLUDES the unit that was engaged in CC with the falling back unit. As in that unit cannot 'trap' the falling back unit. The BRB SPECIFICALLY says that the previously engaged unit has 'missed their chance'.

OTHER units can trap big d but he falls back in any direction he chooses, and his average fall back will be 7" which means you would need to pack an entire 14" diameter bubble with units that were NOT engaged in CC with big D the turn he misdirects.

Good luck



That is what I have been saying you - you surround him with another unit. It's easy to form up a 7" corridor around him with daemonic hordes and I have done it more than once.

If you are piling this many units around big D to trap him in, then he is doing his job and tying up a large portion of your army.

Bah it only takes a few Plauge Bearers to wreak Big D's fun. Thats why I never leave home with less than 60.

Well, See you in the finals then?

Yeah plague swords still rock. Necrons don't like daemons.

I actually had a big long reply written out, but thought better of it. I was the guy playing the Daemons. I am not going to waste a bunch of time arguing with a theoryhammer40k player who doesnt understand simple math.

Nice try though.



Clay

Clay Williams wrote:Bah it only takes a few Plauge Bearers to wreak Big D's fun. Thats why I never leave home with less than 60.

Well, See you in the finals then?

Yeah, I had big D charge 13 plague bearers to lock them in place for a turn... completely forgetting they had poisoned weapons and could hurt me. I whiffed all of my attacks, then they immediately proceeded to cut off the Deceiver's head. The explosion got some, at least.

And hopefully! Has the location of the finals been announced yet? I've been lazy and haven't been keeping track.

Last I heard it was chicago this time. That isnt 2 terribly bad. Unfortunatly I am the only one from my gaming group who got a spot in the semi's due to work or other things.

I guess if I make the finals again this year I will start looking around for someone to carpool with.

Ugh, that's actually pretty far from Atlanta for a 2nd trip in a year. Of course, I haven't even qualified yet, so I may not have a choice!

We need as many southerners up there as possible.

I guess all this talk of daemons krumping necrons has me confused. They are my best matchup. I massacre them every time, even when good players play them. Their saves just aren't good enough. Maybe it's the nature of my list, but that's what happens.

Yeah I will agree the Khorn and Tzeench demons would have it rough against necrons. Nurgle though has an easier time of it with thier 5 toughness and FNP.

Even more so with Fateweaver... that is three saves per wound on average.

As long as you can keep Fateweaver safe from the Deceiver who will kill him in 1 close combat phase......Fateweaver is weak against the Deceiver.....



Clay

X is weak against the Deceiver, where X is anything.

Krootman wrote:Why is his farseer even in combat, he should be able to wrap around the deceaver with bikes so that his farseer doesn't see combat. (Assuming other units don't add on)

I'm a bit confused as to how this is accomplished. Don't you have to move ICs into b2b before any other members of the unit? Those bikes that are around the deceaver have to be 1" away so there should be a spot around him somewhere for the farseer to fit in, right?

X is weak against the Deceiver, where X is anything.

Truth

There are lots of ways to kill C'tan that cost much less such as snipers, plague bearers, Skulltaker, GKGM, etc. You must also consider the Y which is greater than the star god.

Have you ever faced the Deceiver? From what you write here, it seems you don't even know his rules.


Snipers, yes, they could kill him. But it isn't as easy as it was in 4th edition, when they hit on 2s.

Plaguebearers, and Skulltaker? No chance. Not because they can't roll the right dice and kill him in CC, but because a good player will NEVER let you into CC with those models. They charge, he leaves combat, they roll no dice. Is that clear enough for you? It's a power, it's called Misdirect. When you charge, he rolls 2d6, and moves OUT OF COMBAT. So Skulltaker doesnt get to fight, neither do the Plaguebearers, unless the Necron player wants to.



Stop playing theoryhammer40k, and go find someone who can play this list, and then show us a battrep. Heck, come down to Atlanta and play our resident Necron pro, thats a matchup I would love to hear about.


Noone is saying the army is tops, or can smash anything it comes into contact with, what we are saying, is that it's not easymode like you make it out to be.



Clay

If Big D can't assault then what good he is versus an opponent that knows how to counter him? And how do you know I have not played your pro?

Now I am beginning to question your reading comprehension. What I said was, YOU CANT ASSAULT HIM. I never said he couldnt assault you. He is going to choose which units he wants to assault.

Maybe you have, but based on your assumptions about how his list plays, I seriously doubt it, at least not against his Necrons.



Clay

A good opponent will not let you choose what you get to assault. It sounds like you have been racking up wins clubbing baby seals.

Wait, 3 of the 4 ways you gave to kill Big D, all involved you getting into CC with him, which clearly, if you knew the rules, you can't. Yet now you counter with the statement above about good players not letting you get into cc?

Thats what I have been telling you for a couple of posts now, thanks for making my point. Your counters to Big D, aren't going to work, except MAYBE the Snipers, and thats assuming again, that the Necron is an idiot and just stands there and lets you do it.




Clay

skipdog172 wrote:

Krootman wrote:Why is his farseer even in combat, he should be able to wrap around the deceaver with bikes so that his farseer doesn't see combat. (Assuming other units don't add on)

I'm a bit confused as to how this is accomplished. Don't you have to move ICs into b2b before any other members of the unit? Those bikes that are around the deceaver have to be 1" away so there should be a spot around him somewhere for the farseer to fit in, right?

Well your right, but vs something that is a lot slower then you (the deceiver) you can move in such a way that it will be physically impossible to get the seer into contact with the deceiver if he chooses to charge it. (especially if you take a bigger squad of jet bikes) Now im not saying this will always be the case but if you position right you should be able to keep the farseer out of combat.

As for the deceiver, hes a pretty powerful character that has a lot of nifty tricks, most notably being to pick what he fights in cc. However if you know what your doing it should not be much of a stretch to keep things it wants to charge out of its range, if you have poped monos or you know the necron player needs to move his warriors threw them you can set up some units in a way where he cant actually move to get into combat with something he wants to fight.

Now some people would say "then deceiver has done his job by tieing up a large part of your army. I would argue that depending on the mission and the deployment your actually tieing up the deceiver from attacking combat heavy units that warriors have no chance vs and that can pop monos in cc. Of course we could argue back and 4th about this but thats not my point. My point is that while hes a monster alot of the higher tier armies commanded by cleaver players should be able to keep him from doing what the cron player wants him to do.

ICs only need to move first during pile-in and defenders react moves, not in an assault move. It's pretty easily to manipulate things to keep a character out of combat if you don't want him fighting as long as you have a big enough unit.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:
A good opponent will not let you choose what you get to assault. It sounds like you have been racking up wins clubbing baby seals.

Your lack of understanding is unsettling. Go read the Necron Codex and you will see what we are talking about. The Deciever leaves combat 2D6 inches in YOUR turn and then gets to move and assault in his own turn. Creating on average a 19 inch assault bubble. That's quite a distance to avoid.

Well, not to insult the C'Tan (I play the NB), a good way to kill them is to use the Chaos psychic power that turns a model into a Chaos Spawn. End of story.

You have to get very close to spawn a star god and then your opponent has to roll a 6. It's not something I would count on to eliminate him but I've seen it happen more than once.

I always love a great battle versus Necrons so it's just my competitive nature to pick on Necron players. I don't mean to be a jerk and apologize from coming across briskly. I have played Necrons myself and have to say it's still a strong army in the hands of a good general. That said taking only two troop choices is very risky in Ard Boyz. I know you can recycle the heck out of them but over the course of the game they can be worn down. If they do get caught in an assault an entire unit can go bye bye real quick. The list presented here was very strong back in 4th edition and it has all the key ingredients for success back in the day. Destroyers are just plain sick and they have always been a thorn in my side when I fight against them. Personally I would trade the star god for a Lord with a couple of Spyders to extend their WBB bubble. That is just me though.

I have fought against Necrons many times and many of those games were versus very good players. I think I have only lost once to Necrons. That doesn't mean I think the race is rubbish, to me it simply means I understand them very well in my opinion. I certainly respect anyone who has stuck with them and is still having a lot of success. You have to admit they got hit hard with the nerf bat with the advent of 5th edition and their new FAQ. It doesn't mean they are stinking it up on the tables by any means. It's just that they were inherently much stronger prior to 5th edition. In fact Kirby won the 1st Ard Boyz with Necrons against a tri holo falcon army in the finals. That is a living testament to what the army could do.

Now about star gods, certainly they are still right strong and I prefer the Nightbringer... He is as old school as it gets and I appreciate that immensely. He is more expensive and there is a reason for that. What I like best about the Deceiver is the ability to redeploy. That is very powerful in it's own right and I often see people playing not take full advantage against. You can start your whole army in reserve so that has weakened the ability to redeploy. If you are playing against the Big D you have to be aware of that power and plan accordingly. You have to play your whole army against Necrons in general to be successful. I know how to counter the Big D and those tactics of mine have not changed over time... The little tricks up my proverbial sleeve still work well for me.

40kenthusiast wrote:Well, imagine you are playing a fairly typical list, you've got say X heavy weapons.

You can shoot them at the Deceiver for every 6 SM heavy weapons you shoot at him you should get a wound on him.
You can shoot them at a Monolith, by and large, 6 will give you a roll on the table, most likely a glance.
You can shoot them at Destroyers/Immortals/Warriors in cover, 6 will hit 4 times, wound 4 times (rounded), 2 will make cover saves, one will get up.

Most people prefer to shoot their weapons at Monoliths/The Deceiver, particularly as the crons can go through a lith if they are dealing damage.

Truthfully, the only way to Phase Out Necrons is in assault, or if they get unlucky with morale. I don't do CC, just move/port away while pouring on the fire, Deceiver plays goalie.

EDIT: An exception to the above may be the new IG codex. I haven't battled it yet, but my theoryhammer says they may be able to shoot the crons straight off the board. Key to a battle with them, I think, would be hiding my guys behind the Monoliths. I'm hoping to battle a good IG list in round 2, find out how that goes.

Well, let's start saying that playing on hard boyz math’s... any typical list will sport an X amount of heavy weapons much higher than the 6 you suggest.... and many of those weapons will outrange anything the monolith can shoot back at them...

I would have been happy if paired against your list using just Grey Knights... at 2500 point I can field enough twin linked lasscannons to pop/immobilize/weapon destroy a Lith each turn... and I can add something like a 10/12 psicannons to get rid of The Deceiver (no saves for him) in one turn or focus fire in your toughness 5 models... all this playing at max range to exploit the veil and the short range of necron weaponry...

You are not taking into account Destroyers. They can move 12" and shoot 36" for an effective range of 48".

You hear that player A? a good player will never let PBs strike in CC against BigD ....

Afrikan Blonde wrote:You are not taking into account Destroyers. They can move 12" and shoot 36" for an effective range of 48".

Once disposed of the liths and Deceiver, 15 destroyers play a losing game against 12 psicannons (6 GK or GKT squads) and 6 lasscannons (3 land raiders) I may lose half my models, but still will come out on top...

You are the man!

santanero wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:Well, imagine you are playing a fairly typical list, you've got say X heavy weapons.

You can shoot them at the Deceiver for every 6 SM heavy weapons you shoot at him you should get a wound on him.
You can shoot them at a Monolith, by and large, 6 will give you a roll on the table, most likely a glance.
You can shoot them at Destroyers/Immortals/Warriors in cover, 6 will hit 4 times, wound 4 times (rounded), 2 will make cover saves, one will get up.

Most people prefer to shoot their weapons at Monoliths/The Deceiver, particularly as the crons can go through a lith if they are dealing damage.

Truthfully, the only way to Phase Out Necrons is in assault, or if they get unlucky with morale. I don't do CC, just move/port away while pouring on the fire, Deceiver plays goalie.

EDIT: An exception to the above may be the new IG codex. I haven't battled it yet, but my theoryhammer says they may be able to shoot the crons straight off the board. Key to a battle with them, I think, would be hiding my guys behind the Monoliths. I'm hoping to battle a good IG list in round 2, find out how that goes.

Well, let's start saying that playing on hard boyz math’s... any typical list will sport an X amount of heavy weapons much higher than the 6 you suggest.... and many of those weapons will outrange anything the monolith can shoot back at them...

I would have been happy if paired against your list using just Grey Knights... at 2500 point I can field enough twin linked lasscannons to pop/immobilize/weapon destroy a Lith each turn... and I can add something like a 10/12 psicannons to get rid of The Deceiver (no saves for him) in one turn or focus fire in your toughness 5 models... all this playing at max range to exploit the veil and the short range of necron weaponry...

I'm not sure I follow this math.

Assuming you have 12 twin linked las-cannons, you should get right at one meaningful result on the damage table in a turn of firing; wrecked or immobilized. The weapon destroyed really doesn't matter that much. The following turn, those threats are going to receive a lot of gauss-glance effects that should shake/stun/weapon destroy those vehicles enough that it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to repeat this feat on the following turn. For example, if I use gauss weapons to only shake/stun half of your vehicles, it is unlikely that the remaining las-cannons firing will have even a single meaningful result on the following turn. The monoliths are each more resilient than any of your land raiders, and there are more weapons in the Necron army that can hurt a land raider than there are weapons in a Grey Knights list that can hurt a monolith.

Now, I'm not saying that Grey Knights can't beat Necrons. I'm just trying to figure how you expect the las-cannons you field to effectively eliminate a monolith each turn. I understand that you can get lucky, but you can also get unlucky. For every time that you fire a single las-cannon and pen-destroy a monolith, there is going to be the time that you fire every las-cannon in your army at them for two consecutive turns and do nothing. It's silly to plan on consistently performing better than the odds as a basis for how one expects to beat an opponent.

Saldiven wrote:

santanero wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:Well, imagine you are playing a fairly typical list, you've got say X heavy weapons.

You can shoot them at the Deceiver for every 6 SM heavy weapons you shoot at him you should get a wound on him.
You can shoot them at a Monolith, by and large, 6 will give you a roll on the table, most likely a glance.
You can shoot them at Destroyers/Immortals/Warriors in cover, 6 will hit 4 times, wound 4 times (rounded), 2 will make cover saves, one will get up.

Most people prefer to shoot their weapons at Monoliths/The Deceiver, particularly as the crons can go through a lith if they are dealing damage.

Truthfully, the only way to Phase Out Necrons is in assault, or if they get unlucky with morale. I don't do CC, just move/port away while pouring on the fire, Deceiver plays goalie.

EDIT: An exception to the above may be the new IG codex. I haven't battled it yet, but my theoryhammer says they may be able to shoot the crons straight off the board. Key to a battle with them, I think, would be hiding my guys behind the Monoliths. I'm hoping to battle a good IG list in round 2, find out how that goes.

Well, let's start saying that playing on hard boyz math’s... any typical list will sport an X amount of heavy weapons much higher than the 6 you suggest.... and many of those weapons will outrange anything the monolith can shoot back at them...

I would have been happy if paired against your list using just Grey Knights... at 2500 point I can field enough twin linked lasscannons to pop/immobilize/weapon destroy a Lith each turn... and I can add something like a 10/12 psicannons to get rid of The Deceiver (no saves for him) in one turn or focus fire in your toughness 5 models... all this playing at max range to exploit the veil and the short range of necron weaponry...

I'm not sure I follow this math.

Assuming you have 12 twin linked las-cannons, you should get right at one meaningful result on the damage table in a turn of firing; wrecked or immobilized. The weapon destroyed really doesn't matter that much. The following turn, those threats are going to receive a lot of gauss-glance effects that should shake/stun/weapon destroy those vehicles enough that it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to repeat this feat on the following turn. For example, if I use gauss weapons to only shake/stun half of your vehicles, it is unlikely that the remaining las-cannons firing will have even a single meaningful result on the following turn. The monoliths are each more resilient than any of your land raiders, and there are more weapons in the Necron army that can hurt a land raider than there are weapons in a Grey Knights list that can hurt a monolith.

Now, I'm not saying that Grey Knights can't beat Necrons. I'm just trying to figure how you expect the las-cannons you field to effectively eliminate a monolith each turn. I understand that you can get lucky, but you can also get unlucky. For every time that you fire a single las-cannon and pen-destroy a monolith, there is going to be the time that you fire every las-cannon in your army at them for two consecutive turns and do nothing. It's silly to plan on consistently performing better than the odds as a basis for how one expects to beat an opponent.

I think the math is easy to follow...

-Land Raiders lasscannons outrange Monoliths weapons and most of other available gauss weaponry...
-3 land raiders shooting will average a glance and a pen each turn... that's average...
-At range, only necron destroyers can retaliate, but then they are not firing at my GK or GKT... so the land raiders fulfill their "fire magnet" role and next turn al psicannon fire will concentrate on those destroyers
-It doesn't matter how much glances those destroyers made, Machine Spirit and cheap extra armor guarantee the land raider move (out of whip range) and shoot each turn

That is just considering 3 Land Raiders... (and a lot GK a GKT).... that could be multiplied at 2500 points using steelek daemon hunters land raider spam... If I remember correctly he used 7...

Hope my view is clearer now...

What if your opponent decides to deep strike the Monoliths?

Good Job 40kenthusiast!!

I've loved Necrons for years. I've always wondered why more people don't play them with Monoliths, WBB, and the Gauss rules.

How would you counter 4 battlewagons with deffrollas, Biker Boss, Biker Nobz, and Big Mek with KFF assuming they would go after your monoliths?

By the way, a 2 monolith/Nightbringer list won the Greenville, SC event.

Must be something in the water down South. Well, that and 40kE and the Greenville winner are two of the best players I've faced. Which I guess helps.

Big question is whether BW's can deff rolla liths. If they can't, I can ignore them and just use the liths to keep them back. Otherwise they need gaussing.

@Pipe:

Short version of this answer is that that faq decision decides the game.

In any case, the deployment is straightforward. Liths in a line, with gaps for Destroyers peep out. Destroyer hiding from Lootas behind the Liths, ready to countercharge if they get popped by a Klaw. Warriors hiding in reserve. Walk on far from excitement if I'm losing, close up for rapid fire if I'm doing alright and phase out isn't a danger.

Shoot pwhips at Biker Nobs, Deceiver also targets this unit with Deceive. If BW are allowed to Deff Rolla the liths, destroyers fire on them, try and get some immobilizes through the KFF. Not much hope there. Otherwise they concentrate fire on the Biker Nobs.

If the BW can't damage vehicles, its a done game. After they krump one lith (if they do) the Deceiver annihilates the Nob Bikers, remaining Liths hold back the Orks for gaussing, spam templates.

If the BW can damage vehicles, them ramming the lith wall will be the deciding point of the game. They'll likely bust through, particularly with boarding plans or just disembarking to charge with Pfists. Once they bust through the Phase Out express is pulling in. 2-3 rounds later the game will end with an Ork massacre.

@:Uber: Thanks man! Have we played?

Yeah, as a daemon player, I actually don't like my match up against a multi-monolith army. Especially once you start using c'tan and then like.

If the necron player plays poorly with their positioning I can probably win, but a good necron player is dangerous.

Clay Williams wrote:You hear that player A? a good player will never let PBs strike in CC against BigD ....

Yeah, I'm a scrub :(

that actually still gets brought up from time to time. Player A has taken savage glee in utterly abusing every Nurgle Daemon list he's come across since, but its definitely one for the books. Its more or less my counterpoint to his pointing out that I was last in the invitational.

Our store in MN has always allowed Deffrollas. Sounds like a lot of others did/will for 'Ard Boyz. You certainly know what you're doing so I wouldn't worry about them too much. Just make sure to send a lot against the WarBoss, he's T5 so Str 9 won't insta kill him like Nob Bikers, and his PK is Str 10. With the exception of Lootas you'll outrange most ork shooting.

@40kE - A couple times in Gastonia. Most notably that "fun"mission where my IG deployed 24" from your Necrons and you got first turn. Hilarity ensued.

Guys srsly ignore the monoliths and just phase him out.


*laughing*


I don't fall onto the bandwagon of "oh noes, Necrons suck." I think that a multi-monolith army (deep striking in particular) is hell to deal with. Good to see another necron win.

So who here seriously thinks Necrons are a contender this year?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So who here seriously thinks Necrons are a contender this year?

Well you never know, alot of bad players got threw the first round im sure so if a good player playing necrons gets the right matchups they could make it to the finals.......and once at the finals all they have to do is convince the judge necrons get wbb twice and monos can move 24 inches and they got it! I mean if a daemon player can convince a judge that they all come down 1st turn then anything is possible!!!11111111

santanero wrote:

I think the math is easy to follow...

-Land Raiders lasscannons outrange Monoliths weapons and most of other available gauss weaponry...
-3 land raiders shooting will average a glance and a pen each turn... that's average...
-At range, only necron destroyers can retaliate, but then they are not firing at my GK or GKT... so the land raiders fulfill their "fire magnet" role and next turn al psicannon fire will concentrate on those destroyers
-It doesn't matter how much glances those destroyers made, Machine Spirit and cheap extra armor guarantee the land raider move (out of whip range) and shoot each turn

That is just considering 3 Land Raiders... (and a lot GK a GKT).... that could be multiplied at 2500 points using steelek daemon hunters land raider spam... If I remember correctly he used 7...

Hope my view is clearer now...

Actually, it's not easy to follow. I did the actual statistical math for having six land raiders each armed with 2 twin linked las-cannons firing each turn. You statistically should either immobilize or destroy one monolith with 6 land raiders firing a dozen twin linked las-cannons. A round of shooting by the necron list in this thread against 6 land raiders should, statistically reduce the next turn's firing to 6-8 twin linked las-cannons, which should do one effective thing to a monolith over the next two turns.

Once again, I'm not saying that Grey Knights can't win. I am saying that you're over-estimating the effect that those land raiders will have. Also consider the fact that you'd be dedicating approximately 60% of your army's points to address approximately 28% of your opponents, with a legitimate chance to actually eliminate 9% of that force.

You further go on to discuss dedicating all your psy-cannons towards eliminating the Deceiver. That would result in 100% (give or take) of your force dedicated to addressing approximately 40% of your opponent's force for the first 2-3 turns, minimum (assuming Monoliths never get a cover save, the Deceiver usually gets a cover save, and none of your las-cannons or psy-cannons are taken out of action during that time).

While that may work, I do not know for sure if that is the best approach. Like I said, while you may get luckier than average, you might also get unluckier than average...that's why it's called the average. My assumptions are all based on averages.

Krootman wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So who here seriously thinks Necrons are a contender this year?

Well you never know, alot of bad players got threw the first round im sure so if a good player playing necrons gets the right matchups they could make it to the finals.......and once at the finals all they have to do is convince the judge necrons get wbb twice and monos can move 24 inches and they got it! I mean if a daemon player can convince a judge that they all come down 1st turn then anything is possible!!!11111111

Well, you never know what's going to happen in a tournament setting. Last year I faced a Necron gun line (1 Monolith, Deceiver, and a whole lot of shooting) with an early rendition of my then incomplete Green Tide, final matchup of round 2. Dawn of war, capture and control, with kill points modifiers if I remember correctly. And of course we were put on a table with sparse terrain, and my opponent (a local) was backed up by the TO in that they had a house rule of scattering all terrain pieces, think it was 3d6", which of course all scattered back towards his table edge. Needless to say, the Tide didn't fare too well, although with him being unable to advance without giving himself up to close combat (Monolith came down earlier than he had hoped), he couldn't contest my objective, so he was held to a minor victory. This matchup sent neither of us on our way to the finals, but could have allowed either of us to place had we fared better against another opponent. Necrons are a beast to beat for several lists when the conditions are right, and with this many players spread around the nation, you can never be so sure that somebody won't just get that perfect set of matchups.

ubermosher wrote:By the way, a 2 monolith/Nightbringer list won the Greenville, SC event.

Must be something in the water down South. Well, that and 40kE and the Greenville winner are two of the best players I've faced. Which I guess helps.

Are you talking about the event at Borderlands? If so, who won? I probably know him.

Player-A wrote:

Clay Williams wrote:You hear that player A? a good player will never let PBs strike in CC against BigD ....

Yeah, I'm a scrub :(

You know that wasn't directed at you Brian. It was an in general statement. I'm guessing you don't let big D play with any more Plaguebearers right?






Clay

It wasnt a general statement and it was directed at Brian =)

I've known Brian and Walt for for a year or more now. But I have only had the pleasure of playing Brian once with my nyds in 4th edition.

So is anyone willing to make a bet Necrons will win it all with only two troop choices?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So is anyone willing to make a bet Necrons will win it all with only two troop choices?

Why would you think any one promoting this list would take that bet?

NO ONE, NOT *ONE* of us is saying that 'Crons are the best army.

We are saying that this is how you play 'Crons in 5th if you want any level of success.

There are so many other competitive lists being played by truely skilled gamers, compared to say, ONE skilled necron player that I know of using a good Min/Maxed 'Ard Boyz list, Even IF this list could go all the way, which I think it can, but don't think it will, it would be a bad bet to take.

The fact is there are stronger builds out there, and MANY more of them being played in 'Ard Boyz compared to the fraction of a percent of competitive 'Cron players.

Clay Williams wrote:It wasnt a general statement and it was directed at Brian =)

I've known Brian and Walt for for a year or more now. But I have only had the pleasure of playing Brian once with my nyds in 4th edition.

Yours may well have been, but mine, was certainly not. I have known Brian and Walt for more than a year or 2, and have still only played Brian once. To quote some unknown 40k player, out of obscurity;

"He keeps hiding from me on table 1 in all the tournaments, knowing he's safe from me there."




Clay

Man, a lot of blah-blah for a Battle Report. Thanks for the write-up. It seems like the multiple Monolith build really scales up well to the 'Ard-Boyz points value.

- Blackbone

By the way, a 2 monolith/Nightbringer list won the Greenville, SC event.

I also took first with above, and I live in MN. I find that while everybody seems to know and expect the deceiver, very few seem to have the same level of familiarity with the Nightbringer. Against all armies but SM hes a guaranteed gamewrecker if he gets to your lines.

EDIT:
Nvm he works on SM too.

Primarch wrote:

Clay Williams wrote:It wasnt a general statement and it was directed at Brian =)

I've known Brian and Walt for for a year or more now. But I have only had the pleasure of playing Brian once with my nyds in 4th edition.

Yours may well have been, but mine, was certainly not. I have known Brian and Walt for more than a year or 2, and have still only played Brian once. To quote some unknown 40k player, out of obscurity;

"He keeps hiding from me on table 1 in all the tournaments, knowing he's safe from me there."




Clay

I am kinda lost as to where you are going with this?

Ok, I made the original quote about good players not letting the Deceiver into combat with the Plaguebearers.


Then, you quote me, and direct it at Brian specifically, because of his earlier example of getting his Deceiver whacked by Plaguebearers.



Then I respond to let Brian know that I was commenting in general, and not directing it at him.


Then, you respond and say that you/me were directing it at him. I assume you meant you. Adding that you have known them for a while, which is cool.


Then, I respond that you may have directed your comment at him, but I wasn't directing mine at him. Then, I let you know that I too have known them for a good bit as well. Then I threw in a joke about Brian being on top tables in tournaments, thus "hiding" from me there out of my reach.

I'm not sure where you got lost.....There is no venom or anything if that's what you're asking. Just making comments and jokes. Does that help?



Clay

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So is anyone willing to make a bet Necrons will win it all with only two troop choices?

The Ard Boyz tournament has had 2 winners, Daemons and Necrons. So Necrons already have won the Ard Boyz.

Ok back on track, the post before your last one just threw me off a bit.

Yeah we had a conversation at Maul @the Mall about playtesting against nurgle demons and Big D getting pwnt by a fairly large unit of them. They had brought another warfan guy, cant remember his name, that I played in the first round. He was running a nurgle list with 3 princes while I run the nurgling/SG varient.

I have not played against necrons in forever, I know watching Neil play against 2 monolith/ Big D crons in the last round of the Chicago GT with horde orcs was just brutal. The kid playing necrons was the one that is always hanging around with Brad and Elias, so by no means was he a push over. He got phased out due to the fact that a few 30 man mobs got into his lines and just destroyed him This happend about 6 inches from his back table corner, there was absolutly no way for it to be avoided.

After playing Walt the one time Daemons vs Necrons, one of my first moves was to add more Plaguebearers, for just such an occasion. Of course, we haven't played since then, but I'm sure we will.

I switched back to Orks for the Ard Boyz after that beatdown for 2 reasons.


1. Ive been playing Orks for going on 15 years, and since the statline hasn't changed that much, I know them pretty well at this point, so they were in my comfort zone.


and,


2. After watching the GUO scatter back onto Fateweaver and get lost in the warp, I just didn't want to have all this random crap happening to my army in a big tournament setting. I could just imagine playing near the top, shooting for a top 3 finish, and then rolling a 1 or 2, for the half of army that comes in. So, I took the random elements out mostly.

Anyway, I hope to start making it up to Tennessee for future tournaments now that I am back attending tournaments in general, so we might get paired up at some point.


Clay vs Clay, now what could go wrong there?




Clay

Bad scatters only happen to nice daemons.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So is anyone willing to make a bet Necrons will win it all with only two troop choices?

The Ard Boyz tournament has had 2 winners, Daemons and Necrons. So Necrons already have won the Ard Boyz.

Yea but that was in 4th ed, alot has changed since then and necrons have been hit with the 5th ed nerf bat pretty hard.

I'm intrigued by your list, it certainly sounds easy to beat, but is deceiving indeed . Would you say that it might work out in a downgraded 2000pts version? You'd have to take only 2 Destroyer units, and they would be far less in numbers, as well as only fielding 2 Mono's, but the strategy would be fairly the same.

Oh and congrats on those great games!

Primarch wrote:
Clay vs Clay, now what could go wrong there?

I think Clay would win.....

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So who here seriously thinks Necrons are a contender this year?

Any given Sunday - anything can happen.....

Cron's get MUCH stronger at the 2500 point level. 40KE plays them well and has a good list.....

Anything can happen....they have the same odds as any other army IMHO at the 'ardboyz level.

Sure any army can win but some are stronger than others... some much stronger and personally I don't see Necrons finishing in the top 3 this year.

Good job on the win

Seems to me that 40kE is playing the best Necron army build possible. This doesn't mean it's not a weak codex, as I suspect any deviation from Deciever/Monoliths/Destroyers is going to cut the strength of the list a lot.

I do think you are vulnerable to Phase Out, but exploiting that vulnerability is going to be hard. The targeting choice for the opponent is going to be 100% based on what he's got. It could be good advice for flying mechvets as melta + demo charge could put an entire unit on the ground.

Thank god for living metal though, without it making Monoliths nigh immune to melta weapons you would be in real trouble.