The title gives the gist of the post. I don't have the codex so please excuse the more generic terms I might use to describe the army I fought.

Having a unit of Six Flamers with a Blue Scribe(?) along with a unit of Horrors with two special guys that can turn models into chaos spawn drop down in front of your army and turn your HQ into a chaos spawn and AP and an entire unit of assault marines in one turn with a ton of flamer template attacks and an obscene amount of shooting from the horrors is just great. We are legion allowing the unit to split their fire amongst multiple units and the blue scribe mimicing special attacks for extra chaos spawns is just cheesy. To add insult to the whole thing the soulgrinder can just DS within six inches of an icon and drop a STR 8 AP 3 phlem attack into your deployment zone as well.

I Don't know what the Khorne demons can do because he kept them on his objective on his board edge. He had demonettes and some kind of wierd Slanesh creatures the demonettes wiped out a six man bike squad with rending, at init 5 so no returns. The other Slanesh things were'nt very effective, just really fast. He had some khorne dog things but I was able to shoot them up pretty good with assault cannons and heavy bolters from speeders.

I guess the thing that irks me the most is the chaos spawn thing. I'll pick out your HQ model, shoot the boone of mutation twice with the horror guys then mimic that with the Blue scribe for a third shot. Aww your HQ guy is t4 and one of those dice rolled a five he's a spawn now no save no invul, doesn't matter that he has three wounds or can't be insta killed, he's a spawn. 140 points gone before his first movement phase, and a chaos spawn in the deployment zone now. The Boone of mutation can even be used if the unit is locked in close combat! Grr what were they thinking when that wrote that crap in? That and so much other stuff getting template AP'd from the flamers and the Soulgrinder DSing into range of my deployment on the first turn before I could effectively spread them out. It's hard to deploy when the enemy DS's their entire army and screens their shooters with CC troops that out init ya. <frustrated>

I might be wrong but I play with a guy who uses chaos demons and the first round they cannot be deployed since the whole unit has to be DS in. So if he really is pulling a first turn DS onto your deployment zone something is wrong. Again, I am also not familiar with the codex.

I think he hast to split his force numerically equal in half and choose one as wave one and one as wave to deploy on turn two based on a roll to appease their god.

As for the chaos breath and chaos spawn creater I hear ya. My Tau friend had to resort to using AP 2 weapons to negate feel no pain on a Nurgle theme and I have to use reserve helicopters and kommandos to counter the chaos spawning prince. As for the flame templates since again I play as orks I feel your pain. It is devestating as hell the only fortunate part is they go down pretty easy...after the fact of course.

Half their army comes in on turn one, all DSing.

Frenzied Potato wrote:I might be wrong but I play with a guy who uses chaos demons and the first round they cannot be deployed since the whole unit has to be DS in. So if he really is pulling a first turn DS onto your deployment zone something is wrong. Again, I am also not familiar with the codex.

I think he hast to split his force numerically equal in half and choose one as wave one and one as wave to deploy on turn two based on a roll to appease their god.

You're totally wrong. 1/2 the force comes in on the first turn, 2nd half is in reserve and comes in as normal.

Your right it is called Daemonic Assault. I wasn't "totally wrong" as you put it. They still split their force in half and have to roll to see which side could deploy normally during the first turn following deep strike rules and the remaining units are deployed in following turns following the reserve / deep strike rules.

You see that corner, deploy in it. Cheap stuff in the front, expensive and hurty stuff in the back.

You know what Daemons hate? Walkers. Their infantry squads have no fist, charge a walker in and laugh as you grind away the squad while the daemons bounce off you. They have to dedicate a Prince, Greater Daemon or Grinder if they want to save the squad.

You know what Daemons really really hate? Mystics.

Flamers come in two flavors, deployed back to harass you later or deployed in your face. If they go straight for early kills, slap some templates on the unit since they'll still be bunched up. Also make sure he's not firing all the flame templates, anyway they angle their drop Flamers can only fire 3 templates.
Assault the Horrors.
Melta the Grinder.
Shoot the Daemonettes with small arms.
Shoot the Bloodletters with Heavy Bolters, Asscans, pie, scatterlasers or charge them first with a dedicated assault unit.
Best counter to Seekers (the fast assaulty things) and Khorne dogs is to stand on the second story of a ruin.

That spawn thing is in the Chaos codex too. It is even more annoy for my T3 models. At least my sistas get a save though. (they ignore such powers on 5+).

Best way to hurt deamons is to either hope that they scatter bad, put all your stuff in one area (Aka Planetstrike style) or do anything you can to cuase a lot of wounds. Doesn't have to be high strength low Ap hits, just has to wound them. A 5+ invo is not going to save THAT many.

Or put all your units in reserve, so that he has to deep strike half of his army without knowing where you'll be, and then take advantage of the fact that most of his stuff will be short-ranged, so bring your stuff in away from his...

And put your HQ in a tank of some sort as well. Thats just a smart thing to do anyways

avantgarde wrote:You see that corner, deploy in it. Cheap stuff in the front, expensive and hurty stuff in the back.

You know what Daemons hate? Walkers. Their infantry squads have no fist, charge a walker in and laugh as you grind away the squad while the daemons bounce off you. They have to dedicate a Prince, Greater Daemon or Grinder if they want to save the squad.

You know what Daemons really really hate? Mystics.

Flamers come in two flavors, deployed back to harass you later or deployed in your face. If they go straight for early kills, slap some templates on the unit since they'll still be bunched up. Also make sure he's not firing all the flame templates, anyway they angle their drop Flamers can only fire 3 templates.
Assault the Horrors.
Melta the Grinder.
Shoot the Daemonettes with small arms.
Shoot the Bloodletters with Heavy Bolters, Asscans, pie, scatterlasers or charge them first with a dedicated assault unit.
Best counter to Seekers (the fast assaulty things) and Khorne dogs is to stand on the second story of a ruin.

Grinder got Melta'd in the first shooting phase. The horrors and the flamers were assaulted, but for being as shooty as they were I would have figured they wouldn't be so resilient in CC. T4 with a 4+ invuln with the Mark of Tzeetch. They managed to tie me up until the demonettes could saunter over and say hello at I5, rending all the way.

When you say mystics do you mean a Librarian? It's the only thing in my army that I can really relate to a mystic. If so why? I was wondering if I had taken a librarian if I could Psychic hood the stupid boone of mutation, but I was told all of his stuff was shooting attacks, that's why he didn't have to make perils of the warp rolls, although if the boone was a shooting attack I don't see how it could be used in CC like he did. I was so frustrated with the cheese by that point I just rolled without debate.

I never saw the Bloodletters in action the Skulltaker and all those guys sat back on his objective in his corner of the table while th erest of his army came in in or near my table quarter. The Khorne dogs got shot up before they could assault. He had them on another objective and my two speeders shot them off of it. The fast assaulty things I can't really gauge either because he had absolutely horrible rolls versus the assault marines and were butchered that turn (only two of them in his army), so while they seemed ineffective I don't know what they could have done had they actually hit anything.

I lost alot of my army's mobility from essentially being penned up in my quarter. I had to decide whether to deal with the incredibly shooty units in the flamers, Horrors and Soulgrinder or try to break out and make for other objectives. With as much damages as they had caused in their first turn (about a third of my army went to that big fortress monestary in the sky) I had to deal with them. Any attempt at a break out would just be inviting further devestating shooting phases. It was just a frustrating game. Alot of "They can do what!?" and ""You mean to tell me that none of those attacks allows for an armor save?" was happening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:Or put all your units in reserve, so that he has to deep strike half of his army without knowing where you'll be, and then take advantage of the fact that most of his stuff will be short-ranged, so bring your stuff in away from his...

Next time I will, and while the army I brought this time was assault based (Ravenwing with bikes for troops and three assualt squads) I'll have to have a shooty list to swap out to in the event that I'm facing demons. Being able to template his DS'd unites would have been nice, but the Army that I brought had none of that

You might want to look closer at his rule book then, at least for his army list. Because usually when you ask those questions, often during a game, something is fishy

KingCracker wrote:And put your HQ in a tank of some sort as well. Thats just a smart thing to do anyways

I was informed that the Boone of Mutation does not require line of sight, it can just target a model within range. I don't know if that's true, but if it is couldn't they just go, I target the guy in the transport? Also the HQ he targetd was an Interrogator Chaplain with a Jump Pack, no transport for him.

Tyras wrote:I don't know if that's true, but if it is couldn't they just go, I target the guy in the transport?

Psychic powers cannot be used on units inside of transports unless the psyker himself is embarked in transport with the unit in question, so if you mount up your HQ's in vehicles he cannot transform them into spawn.

edit: just noticed the bit about the Interrogator Chaplaian w/ Jump Pack. Not much you can do but hope for the best then. I think the power also has a very short range of around 6" (sorry - can't locate my daemon codex atm).

also, the mystics mentioned earlier in the thread were regarding taking an allied inquisitor from the deamonhunters codex w/ 2 mystics. If you look up the rules, you'll figure out how much of a benefit that unit can be against deep striking armies

Although, Dark Angels may have some special rule where they don't ally with others. Is that still in effect?

Tyras wrote:To add insult to the whole thing the soulgrinder can just DS within six inches of an icon and drop a STR 8 AP 3 phlem attack into your deployment zone as well.

Tyras wrote:Grinder got Melta'd in the first shooting phase.

If this was the same game, he was cheating. You can only DS onto an icon that was on the table at the beginning of the turn. If he was using Icon incest that might explain why he could drop the good stuff in so close on the first turn. Did he even roll army halves?

Mystics are a retinue option for Inquisitors. If you take two of them they can nominate a unit within 12" to take free shots at any daemon or deep striking unit entering within 4d6 inches of the Inquisitor. You can do this for every daemon unit in range.

Daemon shooting is actual shooting so hoods don't do anything, also Boon of Mutation is a ranged weapon that can be used in CC. It still requires a physical model to target.

Emperors Faithful wrote:That spawn thing is in the Chaos codex too. It is even more annoy for my T3 models. At least my sistas get a save though. (they ignore such powers on 5+).

This is not the case. Sisters have a save against Psychic effects. All of the Chaos stuff is something of a different nature.. It is explicit in their codex that these are not Psychic attacks and that the Chaos models are not Psykers. Boon of Mutation really is stupid broken. It sucks seeing your tooled up Canoness, Inquisitor, or Celestine get turned into a pile of sludge - or worse - a T5 | W3 unit that is now going to tie you up in an assault or waste your precious ammo..

avantgarde wrote:

Tyras wrote:To add insult to the whole thing the soulgrinder can just DS within six inches of an icon and drop a STR 8 AP 3 phlem attack into your deployment zone as well.

Tyras wrote:Grinder got Melta'd in the first shooting phase.

If this was the same game, he was cheating. You can only DS onto an icon that was on the table at the beginning of the turn. If he was using Icon incest that might explain why he could drop the good stuff in so close on the first turn. Did he even roll army halves?

Mystics are a retinue option for Inquisitors. If you take two of them they can nominate a unit within 12" to take free shots at any daemon or deep striking unit entering within 4d6 inches of the Inquisitor. You can do this for every daemon unit in range.

Daemon shooting is actual shooting so hoods don't do anything, also Boon of Mutation is a ranged weapon that can be used in CC. It still requires a physical model to target.

Well the icon thing is one confirmed fudge then.

Hmm I have a couple inquisitor models from my wife's army, and if I'm gonna bring him is I might as well bring in the vindicare that can pick out guys, like the blue scribe. Can the unit nominated by the mystic be a vehicle? Can multiple mystics be taken to give multiple shots at his DSing guys?

I didn't actually have a target in a transport that he popped with boon, but when I talked about having putting him in a land raider so he wouldn't get taken out on the first turn he just laughed and said he didn't need line of sight so he could get him inside the transport as long as the transport was in range.

*As he drops in shoot the CENSORED out of him. Concentrate fire. Have speed bump troops or vehicles in front. Bolters are you friend as he doesn't have an armor save for most things.
*charge BL's before they charge you.
*Hide behind vehicles. If you have Landraiders you will have an advantage as mostly just big MCs can hit them.

Majesticgoat wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:That spawn thing is in the Chaos codex too. It is even more annoy for my T3 models. At least my sistas get a save though. (they ignore such powers on 5+).

This is not the case. Sisters have a save against Psychic effects. All of the Chaos stuff is something of a different nature.. It is explicit in their codex that these are not Psychic attacks and that the Chaos models are not Psykers. Boon of Mutation really is stupid broken. It sucks seeing your tooled up Canoness, Inquisitor, or Celestine get turned into a pile of sludge - or worse - a T5 | W3 unit that is now going to tie you up in an assault or waste your precious ammo..

Damn. What are there powers classed as then? Kind of like guard orders? Oh, well, my sistas ARE kind of Witch HUnters, leave deamons to Grey Knights and such. Also, transports. Since nothing (much) that he shoots in the first turn will be seriously dangerous to vehichle, get your transports ready then charge out, disembark and let loose. It is really in close combat that vehichles get hurt by deamons.

I didn't know about mystics until this mornin Frazzled lol. When he shoots after DSing in on his turn the damage is done at that point. He focused on the stregth of his units rather than the strengths of tactics. He dropped his shooty guys all down within 12 inches of my army so they were, for the most part, out of the battle in my next turn.

One of the reasons I am frustrated is that Demon players have the ability to drop on top of your army, while you're rather bunched up in a deployemt zone, or at the weekest point in your line if you have an entire board edge, and destroy so much in one turn. Before my first movement phase I had lost over a third of my army. A six man bike squad with the Ravenwing banner, a ten man assault squad, the Interrogator Chaplain attached to that squad, and a tactical squad. On top of that I had two chaos spawns in my deployment zone tying up units in CC.

It was a learning experience to be sure, but had it been any other army I would have trounced him. At the end of the game he only had the unit of Bloodletters with the Skull taker left on the field, I lost a three bike combat squad with an attack bike to the demonettes rending, but other than that I didn't lose another unit, in fact I only lost two more models. I was just so held up in my deployment zone and lost some key manuever units in that first fiasco of shooting that I couldn't get my last troop choice to an objective (I was one inch away from being within three inches) before turn six and the roll ended the game on turn five.

Next time I will have a demons list ready. It will include an inquisitor with mystics and an assassin to pick off the special characters and their insane abilities. I will deploy in reserve to better react to his initial deepstrikes, and it will have heavy support rather than a bunch of fast attack.

The list I brought wasn't tailored to fight a paticular army. It was supposed to be highly mobile and assault based. Ravenwing bikes and 30 Assault Marines. I believe it to be a strong list, I just have to play it better with reserves and not get tied up in my own deployment zone by armies that DS in on me.

Be sneaky, he can't use Boon of Mutation unless he has a spawn model to put in it's place

Shamfrit wrote:Be sneaky, he can't use Boon of Mutation unless he has a spawn model to put in it's place

As much as I love being the bearer of bad news... Wait nevermind

This is incorrect, the Power states "If the player using this gift has a Spawn Model", so the replacing with the model is optional. The Rest still happens with or without the model.

I didn't see your list Tyrus so don't know what is available.

But if he's shooty demons block or push off his shooters from deploying close. If you have rhinos do the rhino shield wall if he goes 2nd. Demon shooting is not good and you just use the same tactics you would against a regular deepstriker.

HQ

--Sammeal in his Land Speeder (AV14 Front and Side on a Speeder!)
Raven Wing Banner in Bike Squad #1
Apothecary upgrade in Bike Squad #1
245

--Interrogator Chaplain (Attached to Assault Squad #1)
Jump Pack
Plasma Pistol
Melta Bombs
160

Troops

--Raven Wing Attack Squadron (Bike Squad #1)
3 Additional Bikes
Power Weapon for SGT
2X Melta guns
Speeder with a heavy bolter (no option to upgrade to Multi Melta) and an Assault Cannon
355

--Raven Wing Attack Squadron (Bike Squad #2)
Attack Bike with Multi Melta
Power Weapon for SGT
Melta gun
195

--Tactical Squad
Plasma Gun
Rhino with Storm Bolter
145

Fast Attack

Assault Squad #1
5 additional Assault Marines
Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon and Melta Bombs for SGT
2X Plasma Pistols
300

Assault Squad #2 (Same as above)
300

Assalt Squad #3 (Same as above)
300

Ok, lots of high point troops. Yea if he breath of chaos's well etc then you're hosed, but its really random.

You should post this in the tactics section.

His list was Six flamers with the Blue Scribe (?)
A big unit of horrors with two special guys that did the boon of mutation
A big unit of demonettes
Two wierd Slaneesh horse scorpian looking things
A decent sized unit of khorne dogs
A big unit of Bloodletters with the Skulltaker
A smallish unit of Plaguebearers
and a Soulgrinder.

From what it seems everything was upgraded to the max.

Frankly that daemon army is rubbish imho.

Look, Daemons do well against MEQ as they have a few units which ignore armour saves!

Boon is a very very short range power, and not particularly usefull as well i'm quite surprised it's your biggest gripe, considering just how powerful things like blood crushers and GD's can be!

IF you want a good tactic, keep everything of the pitch, and come on from reserve, it negates a massive bonus of his army, as ravenwing you're able to outflank as well!, pick on his weakest point and don't get involved in clsoe combat!

When that can target HQ choices that give a unit or an army a special rule like Rites of Battle for an example or a standard bearer and turn them into a spawn to run amok in your deployment zone with no save, invuln or regard to the number of wounds they have it's kinda cheesy. The short range is hardly worth mentioning when he can deploy as close as a few inches away from your army on their first turn.

The Army might not have been a strong build, but that kinda emphasises my points. A poor player can go a long way with a broken army.

I'll have to get clarification on the outflanking. I get a scout move with the bikers, but I didn't see a mention of outflanking in the unit or Ravenwing special rules.

Don't get me wrong, I could have played better by coming in from reserves rather than have the army on the board and at the mercy of the demons DSing. But the strength of the demon units with their abilities and upgrades allow alot of forgiveness in using bad tactics or poor army builds while very little forgiveness for their opponents.

Tyras wrote:When that can target HQ choices that give a unit or an army a special rule like Rites of Battle for an example or a standard bearer and turn them into a spawn to run amok in your deployment zone with no save, invuln or regard to the number of wounds they have it's kinda cheesy. The short range is hardly worth mentioning when he can deploy as close as a few inches away from your army on their first turn.

The Army might not have been a strong build, but that kinda emphasises my points. A poor player can go a long way with a broken army.

So guard your HQ by putting him in terrain or surrounding him with other units. They can't then DS in because they either take Dangerous Terrain tests or Mishap.

Tyras wrote:Hmm I have a couple inquisitor models from my wife's army, and if I'm gonna bring him is I might as well bring in the vindicare that can pick out guys, like the blue scribe. Can the unit nominated by the mystic be a vehicle? Can multiple mystics be taken to give multiple shots at his DSing guys?

Yes and yes, but you need a second Inquisitor with mystics to shoot again. The second Inquistor will take up an elite slot (the first one an HQ) so it's that or the Vindicare.

Tyras wrote:I didn't actually have a target in a transport that he popped with boon, but when I talked about having putting him in a land raider so he wouldn't get taken out on the first turn he just laughed and said he didn't need line of sight so he could get him inside the transport as long as the transport was in range.

By that logic, I could hit a model inside a vehicle with indirect artillery because it doesn't require LoS either. Point to pg 66 of BGB where it says "When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside." and tell him to stfu.

He was surrounded. He wasn't in terrain but he had an assault squad between him and them as well as the squad he was attached to. He was in range, but as he explained the power he could choose any model within range and did not require LOS. What is the rule so I can inform him of any mistake he might have made and look out for future issues with the power.

LOS is not required, he just has to be within 6" of the target.

Are you kididng me? 6"?

Well that's one player I'm going to avoid now. He was saying 18". While it is still possible to target something within the first turn by DSing within 6" that adds a little more difficulty given he risks mishapping from doing so. Tripling the allowed range got rid of that, yay for cheaters.

Now I know, and I will not forget.

Edit: What's the range on the Blue Scribe's ability to mimic the powers of another unit? He was mimicing the boon of change from his unit of horrors that was about 12 inches to the side of that guy.

One of the armies I've had to play against the most is the Chaos Daemons. I won't sugarcoat it, they're a tough army to beat, especially with any brand of marines. Daemons deny marines their biggest advantage, and that is their armor saves.

The daemons army I play against looks like this...

Skulltaker on juggernaut
20 bloodletters
5 horrors w/bolt and changeling
5 horrors
5 bloodcrushers
3 flamers
3 flamers
1 soul grinder
1 bloodthirster

The flamers are tough customers. In our group of players, we refer to them as the "a-bomb of 40K." They drop in, do a mess of damage and then die. The easiest ways around them are to hide in transports, hide in terrain or hide in reserve. Though they do die under a hail of bolter fire, I am still of the opinion that they're the most over-powered unit in the game. They're cheap, devestating and you'd be hard-pressed to find a unit in any other list that can do as much damage.

My answer to the bloodletters is a couple of vinidcators. Make the daemon player pay for deep striking so close to your army. Roll with two vinidcators and even if you're opponent manages to take one out, you'll still get a few shots off with the second (especially if you keep them near one another).

Horrors are the easiest unit to wipe in that army. Even with the changeling forcing my marines to roll Ld tests to shoot, I can usually wipe 'em out the turn they DS if my opponent puts 'em close enough. Flame templates from rhinos work wonders on them too.

The soul grinder isn't too tough. The best way to avoid him is make him roll on the mishap table. He's a big, bulky model that has a habit of touching terrain to force dangerous terrain tests or mishaps. I like to use bikes with melta weapons on him. He's not that tough, and if you can hit a few times he's bound to go down (or lose a weapon or two).

StormHalo wrote:Horrors are the easiest unit to wipe in that army. Even with the changeling forcing my marines to roll Ld tests to shoot, I can usually wipe 'em out the turn they DS if my opponent puts 'em close enough. Flame templates from rhinos work wonders on them too.

<Nitpick> You can't fire Flamers from Rhinos</nitpick> But otherwise sound advice.

Ya can't run the rhino open topped and fire the flame from the fire point?

Tyras wrote:Ya can't run the rhino open topped and fire the flame from the fire point?

<(^-^)>

Flamer templates may NEVER be placed so it touches a Friendly Model, if you cannot place it without touching a friendly model, it may not fire. Look at the hatch on the rhino, it is slightly "in", as such, you can never place the template touching the fire point and NOT touching the hull of the rhino.

Thanks for the clarification.

Tyras wrote:He was surrounded. He wasn't in terrain but he had an assault squad between him and them as well as the squad he was attached to. He was in range, but as he explained the power he could choose any model within range and did not require LOS. What is the rule so I can inform him of any mistake he might have made and look out for future issues with the power.

Boon of mutation is a ranged weapon, but he may be in close combat when he uses it as may the target. He picks an enemy model with in 6", LOS not required. He rolls to hit. If he hits you take a toughness test, if you fail the test congrats on your new writhing mass of muscle and tentacles.

Tyras wrote:His list was Six flamers with the Blue Scribe (?)
A big unit of horrors with two special guys that did the boon of mutation
A big unit of demonettes
Two wierd Slaneesh horse scorpian looking things
A decent sized unit of khorne dogs
A big unit of Bloodletters with the Skulltaker
A smallish unit of Plaguebearers
and a Soulgrinder.

From what it seems everything was upgraded to the max.

So wait... you're complaining when he actually took flesh hounds and only ONE soul grinder? Things could have been a whole lot worse... How about just learn to deal with daemons?

Tyras wrote:When that can target HQ choices that give a unit or an army a special rule like Rites of Battle for an example or a standard bearer and turn them into a spawn to run amok in your deployment zone with no save, invuln or regard to the number of wounds they have it's kinda cheesy. The short range is hardly worth mentioning when he can deploy as close as a few inches away from your army on their first turn.

The Army might not have been a strong build, but that kinda emphasises my points. A poor player can go a long way with a broken army.

I'll have to get clarification on the outflanking. I get a scout move with the bikers, but I didn't see a mention of outflanking in the unit or Ravenwing special rules.

Don't get me wrong, I could have played better by coming in from reserves rather than have the army on the board and at the mercy of the demons DSing. But the strength of the demon units with their abilities and upgrades allow alot of forgiveness in using bad tactics or poor army builds while very little forgiveness for their opponents.

Did the flamers drop and flame? remember under V5 you can't flame friendly units, including models in your own squad.

Frazzled wrote:Did the flamers drop and flame? remember under V5 you can't flame friendly units, including models in your own squad.

The flamers should be able to at most get 3 flamers off, which coincidently is the unit size i see most people run them in.

Wouldnt a squad of 5 be able to manage 4 shots?

Drop mister lead guy, who cant fire, put #2 to one side, put #3 in front of number one, touching #2's base, rinse for #4, then #5 comes down directly opposite #2 accross #1's base.

Sort of...

5 1 2
4 3

Enemy

Unless flamers are on non-round bases, they'll fit like that...

that is paying 2 flamers' points for 1 flamers shot, when they're probably dead next turn, mind.

Yes, all six flamers shot, and the blue scribe mimiced their power and flamed as well for a total of seven.

Yes I know it was a crap list, the compliants were partially bases on how he cheated, as he ran the BoM as 18" instead of the 6" that the rules allow and he turned one of my HQ choices inside out. That he dropped seven flamer templates doing a huge amount of wounds with 4+ rolls not allowing saves and a pie plate of str 8 ap3 happiness on me on turn one because they can all DS in range, all in all over a thrid of the army was subjected to death by cheese, and other portions were tied up in CC inside of my deployment zone by the former chaplain and former assault sergeant gone all spawn like.

The fact that so much could be taken out in one turn by what people are saying is a crap list and crap tactics is what I'm bothered by. Like I said earlier the power of the units and the abilities compared to units from other armies really gives a demon player an advantage because they can get away with a crap list or making bad tactical decisions where as another army would pay dearly.

I just tried it with 5 bases. The enemy squad would have to deploy at least 8 inches wide for that to work. So they could get 4 templates in if they were shooting Gaunts or Orks. However the effectiveness of the 2 side templates would be pretty questionable.

The Blue Scribes don't mimic shooting attacks, they have all the shooting attacks.

Here's the thing about daemons - they are really brutal the first couple of times you play against them. They play so differently from every other army that it feels like you are constantly on your back foot.

Then you start to know how the daemons work and make your adjustments and then the games get really tight.

There is a link to a pretty complete breakdown of the codex in my sig - that might help you a bit.

As other players have mentioned, the spawn ability only has a range of 6" plus, you he has to roll to hit with it. All of the powers in the daemon codex are like shooting attacks rather than psychic abilities. The heralds (of which the blue scribes is one) only have a bs of 4 which means that they are going to miss 2/3 of the time.

I should probably point out here that the nurgle ability just autohits anything in 6" but that is fairly clearly stated.

Starting with everything off the table isn't necessarily a great idea because you will be outnumbered for the rest of the game (pretty much).

Daemons individually are really good, but they can't assault on the turn they show up so they are fragile - I think GW took that into account with them, so the daemon player will typically lose 60% of their army before they do anything at all other than a few random shots. So that remaining 40% has to be good or they will just auto lose.

Uh, what else, oh yeah, like someone else said, you can't use icons on the turn you show up and the soul grinder is such a big freaking model, that it will not usually be too close (though remember that one of the mawcannon upgrades is basically a 36" battlecannon).

One other thing about the flamer's positioning is that you guys are all recommending the 4th edition deepstrike rules where you put the first model and then do each model around in clockwise or whatever. The rule now simply stated to put them in a circle around the first one. That means you can leave gaps in the placement for additional flamer templates. I still can't ever get more than 4 unless firing at a strung out unit.

Flamers die in droves in close combat. Yeah they are T4 with a 4+ save but marines hit them on 3s. Plus the flamers are 35 points per model.

Its more cheat than cheese, to be honest.

18" BoM, cheat.
7 flamers, cheat.
DSing that grinder in on a icon that DSed with it, cheat.

On with the complaints of cheese from there, but would it really have done much to you if those hadnt worked?

(also, yush, I know it may not work based on squad size (although, other squads are fine if you clip one model in the target squad, IIRC) but the 5 flamers is sub-optimal anyway, so...

Must. Prove. Gwar!. Wrong. More. Even. If. By. Silly. Things.... *dies*

EDIT: woah, had not spotted that it didnt require base contact on the circle part. Bah!

Thanks for all of the clarifications and feed back.

I'll be avoiding the player, I'll have a different lis at the ready for any further demon player I might battle, and I will deploy from reserves with HQ guys in transports.

Tyras wrote:
Next time I will, and while the army I brought this time was assault based (Ravenwing with bikes for troops and three assualt squads) I'll have to have a shooty list to swap out to in the event that I'm facing demons. Being able to template his DS'd unites would have been nice, but the Army that I brought had none of that

While you're welcome to do this - it is your own game of course - tailoring your list after knowing what you are facing isn't exactly good sportsmanship. Especially against Daemons, who are the easiest army in the world to beat, if you know that you're facing them and make an army specifically to beat them.

See, the daemonhunter codex allows you to take daemonhunter units as allies, and some of their abilities can be as close to an automatic win as you're likely to see in 40k. If all that matters to you is winning, and not having fun during the game, I suggest you look into those units. (Mystics allow you to shoot at anything deepstriking near them, while psycannons and incinerators both ignore inv. saves altogether, and some psychic powers do nasty things to daemons).

Rather than rely on this method, though, simply learning how to play against daemons will benefit you more, both in your enjoyment of the games that you play against them, as well as in your understanding of the game in general.

You're playing ravenwing, which means that your entire army has guns with a 24" range (minimum), and the ability to either move 12" and shoot, or 24" if you're turboboosting.

The daemon army has exactly one weapon with range over 24 inches. Their greatest possible assault range is 24 inches too. Why are your men close enough for him to flame, or turn to spawn? You're better off running circles around him, and taking potshots when possible. Simply refusing to deploy means that half his army is on the table and you know how to avoid it (or defeat it in detail).

Tyras wrote:
The fact that so much could be taken out in one turn by what people are saying is a crap list and crap tactics is what I'm bothered by. Like I said earlier the power of the units and the abilities compared to units from other armies really gives a demon player an advantage because they can get away with a crap list or making bad tactical decisions where as another army would pay dearly.

Daemons have some powerful units, but they also depend a lot on the ability of the player to improvise based on the results of all the random aspects that go into the army. No other army is forced to face your entire force with only half of theirs for a couple of turns. No other army is unable to hold their whole force in reserve when they want. No other army is unable to pick which units it wants in reserve. These are the weaknesses of the daemon army, and to beat daemons, you need to learn how to exploit those weaknesses. Relying on crutch tactics like bringing daemonhunters, or having a special anti-daemon list will not make you a better player.

6" isnt that far....

I'd go with deploying in a corner with screening trash (well, okay, assault marines are expensive trash, but hey) and rhinos/LRs

He DSes near you, kills the trash, bounces off the armour, your turn, splat, at least half his stuff is dead, the rest will be the stuff that is low-threat to your elite dudes, who're all still alive and fine.


Also, play that person again, and enforce the rules from his codex, "reminding" him of the ones he "got wrong" before in front of people. Might stop him doing it again. Then avoid him.

EDIT: Bah, stop posting while i'm typing

But yes, points above me are all good.

the other thing about that other daemon player is maybe he is also new to 40k got so excited about the book that he missed some of the rules. It happens all the time from people with new armies, new codexes, new systems, whatever. I firmly believe that most people don't actually WANT to cheat, they just get caught up in the moment and aren't thinking.

Redbeard wrote:

Tyras wrote:
Next time I will, and while the army I brought this time was assault based (Ravenwing with bikes for troops and three assualt squads) I'll have to have a shooty list to swap out to in the event that I'm facing demons. Being able to template his DS'd unites would have been nice, but the Army that I brought had none of that

While you're welcome to do this - it is your own game of course - tailoring your list after knowing what you are facing isn't exactly good sportsmanship. Especially against Daemons, who are the easiest army in the world to beat, if you know that you're facing them and make an army specifically to beat them.

See, the daemonhunter codex allows you to take daemonhunter units as allies, and some of their abilities can be as close to an automatic win as you're likely to see in 40k. If all that matters to you is winning, and not having fun during the game, I suggest you look into those units. (Mystics allow you to shoot at anything deepstriking near them, while psycannons and incinerators both ignore inv. saves altogether, and some psychic powers do nasty things to daemons).

Rather than rely on this method, though, simply learning how to play against daemons will benefit you more, both in your enjoyment of the games that you play against them, as well as in your understanding of the game in general.

You're playing ravenwing, which means that your entire army has guns with a 24" range (minimum), and the ability to either move 12" and shoot, or 24" if you're turboboosting.

The daemon army has exactly one weapon with range over 24 inches. Their greatest possible assault range is 24 inches too. Why are your men close enough for him to flame, or turn to spawn? You're better off running circles around him, and taking potshots when possible. Simply refusing to deploy means that half his army is on the table and you know how to avoid it (or defeat it in detail).

Tyras wrote:
The fact that so much could be taken out in one turn by what people are saying is a crap list and crap tactics is what I'm bothered by. Like I said earlier the power of the units and the abilities compared to units from other armies really gives a demon player an advantage because they can get away with a crap list or making bad tactical decisions where as another army would pay dearly.

Daemons have some powerful units, but they also depend a lot on the ability of the player to improvise based on the results of all the random aspects that go into the army. No other army is forced to face your entire force with only half of theirs for a couple of turns. No other army is unable to hold their whole force in reserve when they want. No other army is unable to pick which units it wants in reserve. These are the weaknesses of the daemon army, and to beat daemons, you need to learn how to exploit those weaknesses. Relying on crutch tactics like bringing daemonhunters, or having a special anti-daemon list will not make you a better player.

I look at it this way. I have one army, and everybody in the store knows that it's DA. So if everybody can cater an army to beat mine, knowing it's the only one I can bring to the board, why is it bad sportamanship to have a demons list in the event that one of them brings their demons out? My men were in their deployment zone waiting for my first movement phase. He plopped his flamers down right next to my foward edge units and lit them up. As I've come to learn I should have deployed from reserves to avoid that.

I was in a bad deployment penned up in a a board quarter with a few large sets of ruins I was avoiding with my bikes so my options were a little limited, and made it easy to target bunched up units with template weapons. Other than holding the army in reserve how else could I play? When the game ended on turn five all he had left was the unit of Bloodletters with the Skull taker. I had to speeder upgrade from the Ravenwing Bike Squad and the three bike squad left for troop choices, I just couldn't get them to objectives in time after having them help shoot the Demonettes off of the objective they were holding. Had the game gone into turn six I could have moved them both to objectives and won, but losing the game is not what I was complaining about. It was the cheesyness of the army, which much of that turned out to be outright cheating.

Gwar! wrote:

StormHalo wrote:Horrors are the easiest unit to wipe in that army. Even with the changeling forcing my marines to roll Ld tests to shoot, I can usually wipe 'em out the turn they DS if my opponent puts 'em close enough. Flame templates from rhinos work wonders on them too.

<Nitpick> You can't fire Flamers from Rhinos</nitpick> But otherwise sound advice.

Ah yes...my bad. Thanks for the correction.

As to the flamers - I think that it was discussed in another thread about how the models had to be in base to base contact...or something of the sort...when they deepstruck. You had to do your best to complete a circle...curses! I wish I could find the thread. My cousin (who plays Daemons) debate this all the time.

Sure, the flamers might get totally smeared in assault, however, a unit of ten space marines aren't going to survive the initial attack by the flamers. Not many units are - save orks. in mobs of 30.

Concerning the points made about playing daemons...

...I think keeping bike armies in reserve against daemons is a sound counter to the daemons' deepstriking. I don't think it's tailoring or unfair, but rather exploiting the weaknesses of the daemon army. Zipping onto the board and going where you need to go quickly while hiding those preciously expensive units for a few turns doesn't make anybody a bad player, but rather a smart one.

I use bikes differently in my SM list...I use them as bait. My cousin knows they're likely speeding towards his bloodcrushers or his soul grinder, so tries desperately to get them off the board. I use that time to pick off his scoring units (of which the daemons have several choices, but they're all very expensive). which can almost assure a victory in an objective based mission.

StormHalo wrote:You had to do your best to complete a circle...curses! I wish I could find the thread. My cousin (who plays Daemons) debate this all the time.

That's also wrong You must complete a circle before staring a new one, but other than that the only requirement is that they be in BTB contact. So a Unit of 3 Can Deploy in a Line if they wanted to, or a V shape.

Daemons are harder to beat with marines, but really it's just a matter of being mechanized and taking advantage of what you do have: bolters. There are very few things the codex that can't be wounded by a bolter. Power weapons are a waste vs. Daemons so don't even try to compete in assault with regular marines, only charge to steal their charge. Bolters and flamers do AMAZING things against them.

Gwar! wrote:

StormHalo wrote:You had to do your best to complete a circle...curses! I wish I could find the thread. My cousin (who plays Daemons) debate this all the time.

That's also wrong You must complete a circle before staring a new one, but other than that the only requirement is that they be in BTB contact. So a Unit of 3 Can Deploy in a Line if they wanted to, or a V shape.

Something seems...odd...about that...I wish I had my book in front of me. I am almost positive in a previous thread that it was proven (by those more knowledgable than me) that the flamers (or any unit of three) had to deploy in a triangular shape. Oh well...if they don't have to...it's another tick in the column for my argument that they're the most over-powered unit in the game.

Granted, I am not whining, persay, just stating my opinion. I have and will continue to both die to and deal with flamers.

D'ya know what Daemons really hate?

Incinerators, Psycannons, Grey Knight Force Weapons Inquisitors, etc.

No Invulnerables from both Inc. and Psy. Outright kills models, Mystics can shoot at DS'ing units.

Tyras wrote:
I look at it this way. I have one army, and everybody in the store knows that it's DA. So if everybody can cater an army to beat mine, knowing it's the only one I can bring to the board, why is it bad sportamanship to have a demons list in the event that one of them brings their demons out?

Sportsmanship isn't about what other people can do, it's about the standards you hold yourself to. Again, I don't know the environment that you play in, or the gaming culture in your store. If everyone in the store regularly makes lists just to beat specific people, then you're well within your rights to do the same thing.

But, the point about not doing so making you a better player still stands. If you make a list and it has a weakness against a specific opponent, you can either tweak the base list, and learn to play it in different circumstances, or you can scrap it and make a list to fight the difficult opponent. Which makes you the better player in the long-run?

When you go into a league that requires you to run the same list for a number of weeks, you won't be able to make those changes. If you go to a tournament, you won't be able to make changes for specific opponents. In either of these cases, the only thing you'll be able to change is your tactics - so it's best to learn how to do this, how to be flexible with the force you have already, rather than the force you wish for.

My men were in their deployment zone waiting for my first movement phase. He plopped his flamers down right next to my foward edge units and lit them up. As I've come to learn I should have deployed from reserves to avoid that.

I was in a bad deployment penned up in a a board quarter with a few large sets of ruins I was avoiding with my bikes so my options were a little limited, and made it easy to target bunched up units with template weapons. Other than holding the army in reserve how else could I play?

Not knowing all the details of the game, I honestly cannot tell you what you could have done differently, except for the basic deployment issue. Not trying to be insulting, just honest.

It was the cheesyness of the army, which much of that turned out to be outright cheating.

Well, that's another issue entirely isn't it. Try playing a few games against a non-cheating daemon opponent before declaring anything cheesy. For all their strengths, daemons have a number of weaknesses as well, and it isn't too hard to exploit them.

StormHalo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

StormHalo wrote:You had to do your best to complete a circle...curses! I wish I could find the thread. My cousin (who plays Daemons) debate this all the time.

That's also wrong You must complete a circle before staring a new one, but other than that the only requirement is that they be in BTB contact. So a Unit of 3 Can Deploy in a Line if they wanted to, or a V shape.

Something seems...odd...about that...I wish I had my book in front of me. I am almost positive in a previous thread that it was proven (by those more knowledgable than me) that the flamers (or any unit of three) had to deploy in a triangular shape. Oh well...if they don't have to...it's another tick in the column for my argument that they're the most over-powered unit in the game.

Granted, I am not whining, persay, just stating my opinion. I have and will continue to both die to and deal with flamers.

Just to make sure, here, they did only wound on a 4+ right? From your terror of them it sounds almost as if he laid down the templates and just had you pic up the models (granted, there were 7 of them, I suppose - which cost about the same as a land raider redeemer which would have had the exact same effect).

@Redbeard - I absolutely love this "Sportsmanship isn't about what other people can do, it's about the standards you hold yourself to. " and totally agree with you 100%.

After he calculated how many hits he got with the seven flamer templates he then rolled to wound. On a 4+ he claimed wounds with no saves. The unit on the wrong end of the templates were assault marines, so a 3+ save under normal conditions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On Sportsmanship it is my view that all players should do their best to facilitate an enjoyable game for all parties. They should be honest, and good natured at all times, winning or losing.

Do I play to win? Yes. Do I play to win at the expense of a good time? Nope. The people at my local tend to build armies to beat other people at the local. The army I had brought was not tuned to fight anybody in paticular, as I didn't have a game scheduled with anybody, although I do have various lists in the notebook to battle various players based on their armies and playstyles. The Demon player was an unknown so, I used the latest army list I wanted to test out.

I never accused the player of being a cheater (during the game, Only after I learned in this thread have I made that call), and while I asked a few times out of shock "They can do that?" I gave him the benefit of the doubt, as I was there to play and try to have a good time, not interrogate another player or pour over their codex for five hours. I'm one of the more easy going gamers at my local. I ended up leaving the game frustrated.

Sure, and I didn't mean to call you out in any way - other than your ott daemon hate ;-) - like I said, the first couple of times you play against daemons, you will just get trashed - happened to me too when flamers roasted my 20 man BT horde to black and white cinders - but once you get a handle on how to play daemons the win/loss ratio will equalize, I guarantee it - and especially with Dark Angels (that is one of my most common opponents.) A list like your opponent brought can't really do much against armor 14 spam except with the flamers (they glance on a 4+) and with ravenwing especially you can totally dictate the game and win fairly easily.

Numerous people were jumping on the "he's a cheater" bandwagon and I guess that I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Majesticgoat wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:That spawn thing is in the Chaos codex too. It is even more annoy for my T3 models. At least my sistas get a save though. (they ignore such powers on 5+).

This is not the case. Sisters have a save against Psychic effects. All of the Chaos stuff is something of a different nature.. It is explicit in their codex that these are not Psychic attacks and that the Chaos models are not Psykers. Boon of Mutation really is stupid broken. It sucks seeing your tooled up Canoness, Inquisitor, or Celestine get turned into a pile of sludge - or worse - a T5 | W3 unit that is now going to tie you up in an assault or waste your precious ammo..

Damn. What are there powers classed as then? Kind of like guard orders? Oh, well, my sistas ARE kind of Witch HUnters, leave deamons to Grey Knights and such. Also, transports. Since nothing (much) that he shoots in the first turn will be seriously dangerous to vehichle, get your transports ready then charge out, disembark and let loose. It is really in close combat that vehichles get hurt by deamons.

Its a bit beyond what people are discussing now but I still would love to answer. These are classified as Daemonic Gifts in the Chaos Daemons codex. Right in the explaination of what these gifts are it states that these are the equivalent of the weapons and wargear used by mere mortals, and then in brackets it notes that these are not psychic powers.

Breath of Chaos and Boon of Mutation are the bane of my Adepta Sororita force..

Somnicide wrote:Just to make sure, here, they did only wound on a 4+ right? From your terror of them it sounds almost as if he laid down the templates and just had you pic up the models (granted, there were 7 of them, I suppose - which cost about the same as a land raider redeemer which would have had the exact same effect).

When my cousin plays the daemons, he usually averages 5-7 hits with each template...he then scores about 2-4 wounds with each hit...with a unit of three, that's 6-8 wounds. That leaves two space marines out of a ten man squad...that's pretty devastating if you ask me.

Maybe he just rolls well...but it seems that I lose more than survive every time.

Yes they are quite vicious. But they cost 35 points each naked and are generally a one shot wonder, not surviving the counterstroke. But when they work...choice.

The LR Redeemer can only bring one of those templates to bear on a unit at a time, not seven. Besides the number of templates it's the fact that they AP the marines. It was shocking that a unit could drop down in front of me and have such a devestating effect on the same turn they came in.

I think it's cheesy, it's an opinion.

Demons are practically made to take out Deathwing. You have no bodies to meatshield and no vehicles to hide behind. Do reserves whenever possible and hit him by going second, else when he drops the shooters he has a good chance of deviating badly.

Deathwing can take a Land Raider for every unit of Terminators, and liberally mix Terminators with Dreadnoughts, so the idea that they have no vehicles to hide behind is bunk.

We're talking about his existing list Nurglitch.

Frazzled wrote:We're talking about his existing list Nurglitch.

No DW in there though . Ravenwing, Assault marines, and a tactical squad to fill out the remaining points with a trrop choice to try and sit on an objective.

Sorry when I think DA I think mmm delicious. Terminators mmm. bikes are similar. A proper demon list can be a the scissors to a DA hammer. inveresely you have the ability to bring multiple LRs which are much harder for demons to crack.

Tyras wrote:It was shocking that a unit could drop down in front of me and have such a devestating effect on the same turn they came in.

I think it's cheesy, it's an opinion.

Flamers have been doing this for a couple of editions now. My primary opponent plays chaos and through all of 4th and 5th I knew that it would cost me a unit once the flamers landed. Then I'd shoot them up and move on.

I think you have the game plan now. Alter the list a bit to protect the HQ, work on some deployment strategies and improve as a player. One more thing that can help which hasn't really been discussed so far: buy or borrow every codex and read it. It is so helpful to know what your opponent can do and it makes it easier to call them out if they should make a mistake.

I think Tyras had the right plan earlier in the thread.

Quit playing against demons, it's a terrible 1 dimensional melee army.

Ignores all mission setups
Entirely Invulnerable
Entirely Fearless
Entirely Deep Strike
Entirely Eternal Warrior
No Vehicles at all
Ridiculously powerful shooting rules, new for the first time with this dex (wind, spawn gen etc.)

It's a WHFB army in 40k with made up UBER guns.

No saves from wind of chaos?
Spawn kill?
Musicians in units?
Discs of tzeentch have meltabombs?
...

Playing demons is always the same, and it's seldom very fun. The advice boils down to, you have to bring a gimmick unit to beat these guys (mystics, Fleet Officer, etc.) why bother...

Interesting thread, with good points, but I say, unless you're forced to, in a bad tourney match up, I wouldn't bother giving them a game.

Frazzled wrote:Sorry when I think DA I think mmm delicious. Terminators mmm. bikes are similar. A proper demon list can be a the scissors to a DA hammer. inveresely you have the ability to bring multiple LRs which are much harder for demons to crack.

This is true, but it wasn't a list formulated to fight against demons. Had we been able to deploy across the long boardedge to where he couldn't tie down my army as effectively I would have crushed him, even with his cheating. I think the list has some nice utility and power. Then again, my complaints were never about losing. It was about the absolute madness of what the demon army is capable of.

Augustus, I'll play an opponent who runs demons. I just won't play the guy who fudges his ranges so he can safely deepstrike while still hitting me with boon then cheat again to icon his flamers in within inches of my guys on the same turn the icon deepstruck, then cheat yet again with using flamer templates that touch his own bases. I'll also have a list better suited with dealing with the unique challenges a demon army can bring to the table. I do think they're cheesy, but I won't turn down an honest match.

Augustus is right, it is better to only play the army that is an exact mirror of your own. Anything different is bad.

Augustus wrote:

Quit playing against demons, it's a terrible 1 dimensional melee army.

Ignores all mission setups

Which is both a help and a hindrance.

Entirely Invulnerable

And yet mostly only 5+ saves. So it's good against plasma, and crap against bolters...

Entirely Fearless

Which seems good, until you lose half a unit to combat resolution. You're not going to scare daemons away shooting at them, but you can kill them in droves if you hit them with the right unit.

Entirely Deep Strike

Again, as much a hindrance as a benefit. In 4th ed, this was a huge advantage, because your opponent had to deploy. In 5th ed, this is a definite drawback that has to be overcome against a competent opponent. They keep everything off the table, force you to drop first, and then they control how they want to face you.

Entirely Eternal Warrior

I'll certainly grant you that this is always an advantage for the daemon player.

No Vehicles at all

Except the soul grinder.

Ridiculously powerful shooting rules, new for the first time with this dex (wind, spawn gen etc.)

Wait, didn't you just say it's a terrible one-dimensional shooting army?

It's a WHFB army in 40k with made up UBER guns.


No saves from wind of chaos?
Spawn kill?
Musicians in units?
Discs of tzeentch have meltabombs?

Cause meltabombs are fantasy elements? Seriously now, you're overreacting a bit here. I'll agree with you that musicians in units is pretty silly in 40k, but they made the models for the fantasy side of things, and wanted to make sure they had some use. Marines and guard have banners that add +1 to their combat res, are they also fantasy armies?

Playing demons is always the same, and it's seldom very fun. The advice boils down to, you have to bring a gimmick unit to beat these guys (mystics, Fleet Officer, etc.) why bother...

I've got three chaos daemon armies (tzeentch, slaanesh and khorne) and I'm working on nurgle next. As Somnicide said earlier, the first time you play against daemons, you'll probably lose. They're different, and force you to adjust how you play against them. But, they're certainly not unbeatable, and the more experience my friends have gotten playing against them, the tighter the games have gotten. You say the game is always the same, I don't know where you get that from. There are many other armies out there that have much more of a "this is always the same" feel than daemons do. As a daemon player, I like the fact that no two games are ever the same. I might go into a game with the same strategy (these guys first, then these guys) but the chaos gods enjoy taunting me and things never quite go as planned.

Unlike playing eldar, or orks, or sisters, or any of my other armies, where I set my guys up exactly how I want and can repeat the exact same game plan over and over. Talk about always the same, the marines get in the rhinos and drive forward 12", trying to wall off objectives...

Augustus wrote:Entirely Invulnerable

Oh heavens, looks like its time to polish up the psycannons.

I hate Chaos Daemons as well, but for a lot of different reasons than those posted in this thread already.

Well, I also hate them because most of the models look like something youd find in a toilet after a high fiber breakfast.

I'm sure the players of that army hate them because so much of it is metal.

Meh, I actually like most of the models (granted, I have plaguebearers going back from the newest to the original versions). It would be cool if everything was plastic, but every army can't be like IG or SM ;-)

I don't mind the models. The Daemonettes are crap, but even the Bloodletters have grown on me. I prefer the metal ones, but the new one sare ok.

My dislike for the Daemon Codex stems more from conceptual and fluff-based reasons.

I like a lot of the models, and dislike others. I love the modelling opportunities afforded with the chariots and big daemons. Between greater daemons and daemon princes, I've got about 20 MCs converted and painted, with no two identical. Add the Forgeworld Daemons (new daemon princes are sweet, and greater daemons) and ultraforge daemons... I like painting the big baddies.

The smaller daemons - eh. Not a real fan of the bloodletters, horrors are meh, the new daemonettes are awful, and plaguebearers are ok for pussbags. But you can't run an army with just the big guys :(

Yeah, the new Daemonettes are fugly. They don't scream 'Slaanesh' at all. The old succubus-style ones were better because of their huge br- uh, claws.

Yeah. That's it.

Horrors are a nicely-done model. They look nice and chaotic.

I like the new daemonettes in person but they photo for crap.

Redbeard, I liked your post, I can see your perspective. I also understand that tastes vary and why an army is cool to someone can have a lot of different causes. I thought I'd answer a few points though:

No Vehicles at all

Except the soul grinder.

Which is really just a big dreadnought, and in effect, like another demon prince, with an AV, and some blast... No transports, no tanks, no speed, very much like a WHFB army pasted into WH40k. Sorry but I don't count that abomination as a tank... It basicly plays like an oversize carnifex.

Ridiculously powerful shooting rules, new for the first time with this dex (wind, spawn gen etc.)

Wait, didn't you just say it's a terrible one-dimensional shooting army?

It is a 1 dimensional melee army, is what I said, to be more specific, it feels like an all melee army, and the writers said, oh wait we should invent some ways for these to shoot, so lets:

...paste a soul grinder in there, invent winds of chaos, make flamers shoot tons, pass out lascannons to a few units, and uh, throw in meltabombs for good measure, is there any reason to explain why a disc of tzeentch can chew through a tank like a meltabomb from any perspective? fluff, balance, history, theme or otherwise?

"Besides, we better give this army an antitank jetbike so they can chase down fast tanks." It's a brutally obvious bandaid rule.

It's a WHFB army in 40k with made up UBER guns.

Playing demons is always the same, and it's seldom very fun. The advice boils down to, you have to bring a gimmick unit to beat these guys (mystics, Fleet Officer, etc.) why bother...

...certainly not unbeatable, ...There are many other armies out there that have much more of a "this is always the same" feel than daemons do.

As a daemon player...I like the fact that no two games are ever...things never quite go as planned.

Really? as a Vs. demon player, I can't stand that they never have to play Dawn of War, or put their single HQ and 2 troop choices down, or deal with real reserves. Theme and content asside, an army that ignores all the mission settup structure of the game, well, is just broken.

That's why demons are always the same. There are other armies with sameness, I agree, and I don't like them either, probably necrons being the worst...

Tastes will vary, I of course recognize that people have different things that make them like an army, artistically, I could easily see the appeal of a demon army, some awesome powerful visual and abstract themes there! But IMO, playwise and story wise demons were always part of a chaos marine or possibly a rebel LATD army, they don't come by themselves. Splitting them out, has made a counter fluff army, demons need hosts and followers...

To top that off, playing against them is so unique as to break the game's basic mechanics, therefore IMO, I don't care to do it. I hope the demon codex is depricated in 6th edition and Chaos Marine and Rebel armies get demons back as it should be.


EDIT:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I hate Chaos Daemons as well, but for a lot of different reasons than those posted in this thread already.

What reasons are those? Would you advise the OP not to play vs. demons?

I hate the stupid daemons, because its taken away the abilities from the original demons in the chaos marines army.

For example, the greater demon had 4 types, each with its ability. The bloodthirster for example had the ability to fly, and got an armour save...now it has no armor save and cant fly. Its a lesser demon on steroids...

The lesser demons are no better. The blood letters for example had armour too, they also had power wpns (the main reason i bought them ^^). Now though, they are just like cultists from the alpha legion (in the old codex). It sucks!

There are spawns, but they have no armour save, so they are screwed. And would it be so bad if the demons didnt get destroyed if no one is available to summon on the second turn.

Thats something else...the demons of all type have to come out on the 2nd turn! What if the hosts you have for a greater demon are all at one end of the field, or 18" away from a load of auto & lascannons. It sucks also.

Would it hurt that much if they could update the chaos marine codex with a soulgrinder....pretty please with an ork head on top. ^^

There my first few thoughts anyway, i have more after playing with my under performing demons again.

Complainer out...

I dont like playing against demons ... wait nm I play demons.

Every army is different, and sadly to say you have one of the weakest army books that can be found right now. DA are good at very little and are more expensive than many of the other space marine books.

On the flip side Demons are one of the best books out there. They are a competitive army and even the worst lists can do very well due to the power each unit brings.

The list you played against was not a power list, heck it was not even near cheese status.

It sounds like you played a new army you knew little about, it threw you some curveballs, and you got a lil 2 upset at the outcome. I say you dust off, get back up, and try again. Going the way of "I wont play you anymore" is just plain silly. All you are going to do with that is give yourself less experince when you finally do face them again in a tournament setting ... or you could just hand them the game.

Really? as a Vs. demon player, I can't stand that they never have to play Dawn of War, or put their single HQ and 2 troop choices down, or deal with real reserves. Theme and content asside, an army that ignores all the mission settup structure of the game, well, is just broken.

Wait you mean just like drop pod marines, deathwing, and Grey Knights?

Frazzled wrote:

Really? as a Vs. demon player, I can't stand that they never have to play Dawn of War, or put their single HQ and 2 troop choices down, or deal with real reserves. Theme and content asside, an army that ignores all the mission settup structure of the game, well, is just broken.

Wait you mean just like drop pod marines, deathwing, and Grey Knights?

Oh no, all the armies you mentioned can choose to deploy their guys when that's advantageous. Even pod marines can deploy in a gunline and just drop empty pods to contest enemy objectives if they want to. Daemons get no such choice. They cannot use a normal deployment, even when doing so would be to their advantage. Totally different.

Tyras wrote:The title gives the gist of the post. I don't have the codex so please excuse the more generic terms I might use to describe the army I fought.

Having a unit of Six Flamers with a Blue Scribe(?) along with a unit of Horrors with two special guys that can turn models into chaos spawn drop down in front of your army and turn your HQ into a chaos spawn and AP and an entire unit of assault marines in one turn with a ton of flamer template attacks and an obscene amount of shooting from the horrors is just great. We are legion allowing the unit to split their fire amongst multiple units and the blue scribe mimicing special attacks for extra chaos spawns is just cheesy. To add insult to the whole thing the soulgrinder can just DS within six inches of an icon and drop a STR 8 AP 3 phlem attack into your deployment

+1 for: Allied Daemon Hunter Inquisitor lord w/ 2 mystics and gun servitors allowing you to shoot at deepstrikers or nominate a friendly unit to do so...

+1 for: allied Inquisitor(elite) w/ mystics for more of above

Personally i think Chaos Demon is a pretty cool guy...
he fights aliens and doesnt afraid of anything!

oh gak ive got that wrong havent i...

I think having armies like Daemons, Drop Marines and DA is excellent, it forces people to think differently, to deploy in a different way.

People that complain daemons are broken as they have a different set up need to realise that it's not just daemons that do this, and that they need to think of new and different set ups.

IF you think daemons deploying nothing and then all turning up, how do you feel about white scars with outflanking armies, including LRC's? Would you refuse to play them as they set up in a different way?

If you think it's unfair we don't have to deploy normally, have you ever considered how tough it is to set up the waves! Having to get a balance between the two but always favour the one you want, and then have to adapt untill the other stuff arrives in dribs and drabs!

I think many of you who are so against daemons should try playing them, it gives a unique insight into the trials and tribulations we daemon players have to cope with when playing and learn that it's not just a one dimensional army it's so much more

Reaver83 wrote:I think having armies like Daemons, Drop Marines and DA is excellent, it forces people to think differently, to deploy in a different way.

People that complain daemons are broken as they have a different set up need to realise that it's not just daemons that do this...

IF you think daemons deploying nothing and then all turning up, how do you feel about white scars with outflanking armies, including LRC's? Would you refuse to play them as they set up in a different way?

No, it IS just demons that do it that way.

I think outflanking armies are completely different, they all have to come in from reserves, if the white scars turn one outflanked 1/2 of the army, and then the second 1/2 came in reserves starting turn 2 it would be very different, all outflanking is much different, it's a very hard thing to play. For the record I have actually played this with stealers and I have a Khan as well. Much more challenging than seeing your opponents set up then deeps striking all over it turn 1.

Totally different, and I'd happily play scars or bugs or outflanking whoever armies.

If you think it's unfair we don't have to deploy normally, have you ever considered how tough it is to set up the waves! Having to get a balance between the two but always favour the one you want, and then have to adapt untill the other stuff arrives in dribs and drabs!

Is a moot point if the army halves are identical.
Doesn't matter when the second half doesn't deviate.
Can be grossly manipulated by weighting all the points in one half of the army heavy units.

I think many of you who are so against daemons should try playing them, it gives a unique insight into the trials and tribulations we daemon players have to cope with when playing and learn that it's not just a one dimensional army it's so much more

I think Demon only players (and advocates) ought to build another army and find out what its like to have to set up for real in missions and learn the real game deployment rules like everyone else...

...and morale rules
...and instant death
...and have to come up with plans for position (slog accross the field)

Well, all of the daemon players I know have daemons has a 2nd or 3rd or 5th army so I have to do deal with all of that with my other armies.

Augustus wrote:
No, it IS just demons that do it that way.

I think outflanking armies are completely different, they all have to come in from reserves, if the white scars turn one outflanked 1/2 of the army, and then the second 1/2 came in reserves starting turn 2 it would be very different, all outflanking is much different, it's a very hard thing to play. For the record I have actually played this with stealers and I have a Khan as well. Much more challenging than seeing your opponents set up then deeps striking all over it turn 1.

But this can be turned into a disadvantage instead of an advantage for the daemon player easily enough. The daemon army has precisely one unit (soul grinder) with a range over 24". If the white scars player holds their whole army in reserve, the daemon player is forced to deploy half their army (and possibly their 2nd turn reinforcements) before the white scars player can come on, either outflanking or not, and walking all over the daemon's deployment.

But, the White Scars have this as a choice. The White Scars can say, "oh, I'm playing daemons, I'll hold my doods in reserve." or "Oh, I'm playing Tau, I want to turbo boost into their lines on turn 1, so I'll deploy". The daemons get no such choice. They have to use their deep strike deployment even when it isn't to their advantage.

Likewise for other deep striking armies. Blood Angels can play an all deep-striking jump infantry army. Deathwing, Drop Pods, IG Vets&Vendettas, and so on. All these armies can set up so they can deep strike, and then choose not to if the situation warrants it.

If you think it's unfair we don't have to deploy normally, have you ever considered how tough it is to set up the waves! Having to get a balance between the two but always favour the one you want, and then have to adapt untill the other stuff arrives in dribs and drabs!

Is a moot point if the army halves are identical.

Identical halves is a weaker way of playing daemons, but you're right, if someone really doesn't like the half/half rule, they can do this.

Doesn't matter when the second half doesn't deviate.

And yet this costs 25 points per icon. Compare that to the cost of icons in the Chaos Space Marine list, or the cost of Teleport Homers in any Marine army.
The entire second wave of a drop pod army can utilize the locator beacons on the first wave's pods, and they're considerably cheaper. And, the drop-podding marines can guarantee that they get the first wave first, as they're not having to roll to see if their gods like them.

Can be grossly manipulated by weighting all the points in one half of the army heavy units.

And lose the 1/3rd of the games where the weaker half comes in first and the opponent kills all your troops before you have any of your strong units on the table.

I think Demon only players (and advocates) ought to build another army and find out what its like to have to set up for real in missions and learn the real game deployment rules like everyone else...

...and morale rules
...and instant death
...and have to come up with plans for position (slog accross the field)

I play Sisters, Grey Knights, Chaos Marines, Orks, Eldar, and Guard, as well as daemons. I'm a good player - I regularly win RTTs that I enter, and place well in the big tournaments. And, I can say, without hesitation, that I have more fun playing daemons than any other army precisely because they're harder to play. I can bring my orks, or my sisters, or my chaos marines, and know exactly how I'm going to deploy, and how much time I have to deal with important threats, and how much time I need to get to where I need to be. I haven't lost a game in casual play with any of those armies in as long as I can remember.

This is not true with Daemons. I regularly lose at least one unit to a poor deep strike (whether an actual mishap, or just out-of-position and easily neutralized). Guys don't show up when they need to. My troops appear in the first wave and proceed to be blown apart before I'm able to engage my enemy. Stuff happens that I cannot plan for, and as a result, I'm forced to constantly improvise my position. And, I lose, and tie games regularly while playing the daemons - in the same casual circle that I mentioned above. As a good player, it is harder to win with daemons than with armies that you have more control over. I have weaknesses in the daemon army that I cannot compensate for, and the more my opponents play against them, the better they have gotten at exploiting these weaknesses.

I'm sorry you think they're so unfair, but that honestly hasn't been my experience.

If you think daemons are some kind of auto-win, I challenge you to make a list and try proxying with it. 20 bucks says you suck and die in a few turns. Daemon lists are very hard to make work well all the time due to the sheer randomness.

I'm trying to see where demons are viewed as substantially different than drop troops, Grey Knights, or deathwing, which all have similar dropping options. Unlike them, with the exception of a few shooting units, they cannot attack in the same turn they deepstrike.

Frankly I did better when I played the same minis as Tyranids before there WAS a demon codex.

From my experience they're not all that much different. Yes half of their army comes in on turn one, so do Deathwing (Deathwing Assault). The ability to give every unit icons so other units can come in within six inches is a bit better than other armies.

My beef with the army is with the Tzeetch units and their shooting. I can drop a unit of terminators with an assault cannon, or a Tactical squad from a pod down in shooting range of an enemy and not have half of the destructive force of Chaos Horrors or Flamers. Full Disclosure: I need to play a non-cheating Demon player for a better feel on this. Having a deepstriking battle cannon (Soulgrinder with Phlem) is aweful nasty too.

BNothing like having your soulgrinder deepstirke, deviate, and immobilize itself in trees, to be shot up in the next turn... :(

Frazzled wrote:BNothing like having your soulgrinder deepstirke, deviate, and immobilize itself in trees, to be shot up in the next turn... :(

Icon it in if it comes in after turn one. If it's in first, I guess you need to find a landing zone

Augustus wrote:What reasons are those? Would you advise the OP not to play vs. demons?

As I said my issues with Chaos Daemons stem from a combination of things both within and outside of the game, and are less grounded in the rules and more in the conceptualisation and fluff behind the army, or, really how the rules and fluff interact to create an absurd army that doesn't make any sense. In 40K and even BTech need to be able to justify things in my own head for them to work, and by that I mean if it doesn't make sufficient sense within the fluff, I won't do it - I can't just throw down a bunch of 'Mechs, or two armies that should be on the same side (ie. two Loyalist Marine Chapters) and just go 'Ok, fight'. There has to be a reason behind it. It can't just be a fight for the sake of playing the game - I want it to tell a story. Now not everyone's like that, and that's fine, but this reason is why I have such a problem with Chaos Daemons as an army. It's also the reason why I have such a problem with the emphasis on Special Characters altering your army composition - were I a Dark Angel player I'd hate the fact that I couldn't have my Deathwing march to battle under the banner of a Chaplain because Belial has to come with them where ever they go. It's the same reason I hate the idiotic "Must take an Inquisitor first" rules for Assassins. Assassins shouldn't have to have Inquisitorial chaperones. It's a restrictive rule for the sake of "balance" where extra attempts at balance weren't required in the first place.

But back to Daemons. Daemonic infestations are supposed to be rare, so rare that the Imperium has a whole Chapter of psychic Marines specifically made to fight off these sorts of things. Yet... now they're not. In fact, they happen all the time, enough to make them a fully fledged army. And now they're divorced from Chaos Marine and Traitor armies for the first time since they were introduced... why? This is annoying for a couple of reasons:

1. Chaos players (like myself) who have large collections of Daemons (like myself) and really enjoyed using fluffy armies (like myself) with a good spread of mortal and daemon units (like myself) are suddenly left with Generic Daemons. It's the most unnecessary Codex in the whole game.
2. It was done for no other reason than to sell more models. I celebrate the current Marine Codex for the completely bold-faced nothing-to-hide way it invented new Marine units out of thin air (Ironclad, Thunderfire, Stern/Vanguard, LS Storm, LR Redeemer) for no other reason than to sell new kits and because they couldn't re-release the Tactical Squad again. They had run out of things to do with the Marines beyond redoing the Speeder and the Scout Bikes, and they couldn't base a whole release on re-cutting two older kits. They had to do something, so they just made stuff up and pulled things out of the air. But that's fine, they didn't try to hide that fact, and in the end we got a great Codex and some great models out of it. I really like the current Marine Codex and that's a lot considering that besides Orks I've hated just about every failed set of rules GW has put out over the past few years (excluding Apoc and Planet Strike). Daemons though... it was a case of taking away Daemons from us Chaos players with one hand and forcing a 'new' army on us with the other. feth them. I had a Daemon army - it was called Word Bearers - where Commander Trel'ek the Lesser led his Undivided forces to victory over and over again in the name of his fallen master, Ar'nok the Bitter, the Dark Apostle of Khorne, with a host of Khornate, Undivided, Nurglesque and Slaaneshi Daemons ready to spill into the mortal plane when needed. That's all gone now.

Then there are the deployment rules. This is where the rules don't combine with the fluff creating a situation that just drives me mad and I simply cannot justify it.

Everything Deep Strikes. Everything. That's not Daemons falling from the sky on Grav-Chutes and Jump Packs, that's packs of marauding psychic entities punching a hole through reality and clawing their way into the material realm. And the whole army does this. And the opposing army was just lucky enough to be there right spot where it happened? How did the opposing army know to be there? Who else are they fighting besides the Daemons to be out in position (certainly not Chaos Marines - them and Daemons are no longer on speaking terms). It only gets worse in Planet Strike where a huge defensive Bastion just sits there on the off chance a Daemon Legion springs up out of thin air to attack them? Or when they're defending... but they don't defend. The enemy just decides to attack a random abandoned bastion and then suddenly HOLY FETH DAEMONS!

And why does every Daemon army summon onto the battlefield? Is that they way they always attack? Once summoned do they have to go back into the warp until the next unlucky-and-unaware-yet-somehow-completely-alert-and-in-position opposing army comes rolling along. Is it like remounting Drop Pods for Marines? After the attack they all head off back to the local Warp Bar for a pint of soul before jumping back through the veil of reality to another engagement? Summoning made sense for Chaos Marine armies as they were calling upon the favour and assistance of their Gods during a battle. Summoning massive Daemonhosts also makes sense, but every time? Always? If the influences of the Warp and Chaos are strong enough to bring about a whole army of Daemons, surely some of them could already be there and not always have to be summoned, right? And why do you randomise the half of the army you get other than another asinine attempt to create balance? How does that work in the fluff? Khorne's got his army ready and has his battleplan worked out, he's trusted his mighty Herald to take care of things and yeah... y'know what... let's just deploy the other group first and let the stuff we need to be there trickle in. What???

The rules just don't make conceptual sense when combined with the fluff, so I cannot justify this army to myself as being something that fits in 40K. Even if you had to summon part of it, representing that not all the Daemon Legion is there yet, then fine - but they always spring out of no where on unsuspecting armies? Where are the other Chaos forces? Are there other Chaos forces? How does the opposing side even know they're going to fight anyone? I just cannot make the connection from rules to fluff here, and if I can't make it work in the fluff, then I can't make it work as an army. It's a total disconnect there, and they're the reasons I despise the Daemon Army as a concept (as opposed to despising the Chaos Marine Codex just 'cause it's a load of gak).

Also, remember that with the range of a leman russ battle cannon it can drive on and hit anywhere on the table and for less points with armor 14.

Also, it is the player more than anything that makes an army fun to play against (I think). If the person smells of water and vinegar then the game will be lame no matter what army they are playing. I am fortunate in that my group of guys (the Sprue Posse) are all pretty cool to play - 3 of us have US GT Best Sportsmanship awards.

Don't hate the game, hate the player ;-)

Chaos Daemons are an expensive, hard to paint, all metal army that has no transports and expensive infantry.

They EARN the right to be hard to deal with (not overpowered mind you, but hard to deal with)

avantgarde wrote:You see that corner, deploy in it. Cheap stuff in the front, expensive and hurty stuff in the back.

You know what Daemons hate? Walkers.

QFT. Nine killa kans and a Deff Dredd can be quite a challenge for a demon army.

Canonness Rory wrote:Chaos Daemons are an expensive, hard to paint, all metal army that has no transports and expensive infantry.

They EARN the right to be hard to deal with (not overpowered mind you, but hard to deal with)

How I wish I had a facepalm picture on this computer.

1. Daemons are not all metal anymore.
2. They don't need transports, they Deep Strike.
3. Of course their infantry are bloody expensive, they're good. For crying out loud, Bloodletters have power weapons as standard! They reach your Marines, you die.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:Chaos Daemons are an expensive, hard to paint, all metal army that has no transports and expensive infantry.

They EARN the right to be hard to deal with (not overpowered mind you, but hard to deal with)

How I wish I had a facepalm picture on this computer.

1. Daemons are not all metal anymore.
2. They don't need transports, they Deep Strike.
3. Of course their infantry are bloody expensive, they're good. For crying out loud, Bloodletters have power weapons as standard! They reach your Marines, you die.

Its the reaching them part thats the kicker though isn't it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:--LONG RANT--

Normally with posts like these TLDR might apply early on in the read for me, but I read this whole thing and thoroughly enjoyed getting to understand your perspective.

Cheese Elemental wrote:3. Of course their infantry are bloody expensive, they're good. For crying out loud, Bloodletters have power weapons as standard! They reach your Marines, you die.

They wound like marines, with no ranged weapons, and with a save of 5++. Even if they deepstrike next to you there is still plenty of opportunity to put a ton of fire into these guys. In my experiences, as an observer or an opponent of a Chaos Daemons player, these guys get focus fired and decimated significantly before ever making it into combat.

Or, you know, you could just play Chaos Space Marines and Daemons in the same army, using the rules from their own codexes.

There, problem solved, we can go home now!

Great talk everyone, I think we really did some good work this time, but we've gotta' keep it up or Acme Inc.'s softball team is gonna' be a real problem this season; I hear they're gettin' ringers from that minor league team two towns over.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Augustus wrote:What reasons are those? Would you advise the OP not to play vs. demons?

As I said my issues with Chaos Daemons stem from a combination of things both within and outside of the game, and are less grounded in the rules and more in the conceptualisation and fluff behind the army, or, really how the rules and fluff interact to create an absurd army that doesn't make any sense. In 40K and even BTech need to be able to justify things in my own head for them to work, and by that I mean if it doesn't make sufficient sense within the fluff, I won't do it - I can't just throw down a bunch of 'Mechs, or two armies that should be on the same side (ie. two Loyalist Marine Chapters) and just go 'Ok, fight'. There has to be a reason behind it. It can't just be a fight for the sake of playing the game - I want it to tell a story. Now not everyone's like that, and that's fine, but this reason is why I have such a problem with Chaos Daemons as an army. It's also the reason why I have such a problem with the emphasis on Special Characters altering your army composition - were I a Dark Angel player I'd hate the fact that I couldn't have my Deathwing march to battle under the banner of a Chaplain because Belial has to come with them where ever they go. It's the same reason I hate the idiotic "Must take an Inquisitor first" rules for Assassins. Assassins shouldn't have to have Inquisitorial chaperones. It's a restrictive rule for the sake of "balance" where extra attempts at balance weren't required in the first place.
[snip snip snip for length]

lets be honest, the idea of special characters altering your force comp is silly too like you said but most armies that people play are unrealistic. The most common armies are imperium ones and the majority of the imperiums warforce is the IG not space marines, but space marines are the most commonly played. Almost every space marine player rolls with a "named character" so "Rarity" is pretty common in 5th edition. Hell the dark angels have many companies but for some reason the only ones that ever show up to battle are the Deathwing (1st) and ravenwing( not sure what number). How often do you see a dark angels army with mostly tactical squads? Even before you had to take a special character to use deathwing or ravenwing you would pretty much only see deathwing or ravenwing which is only a small rare part of the dark angels.

in the fluff it is incredibly rare for the inquisition / grey knights to show up at a daemonic incursion before it happens or as it happens, more often then not its been going on for a bit and they then show up.

Now whats weird is in daemon armies fluff wise there is almost no mixing of god types, and I can't recall a single piece of fluff anywhere that mentions mixing hated god types (khorne/slaanesh) (nurgle/tzeentch) but thats pretty common too which is weird. Honestly I wish they made the daemon armies more restrictive than permissive, like you had to have a herald/GD of a god to take units of that god but if you had a herald/GD of god x you couldnt take units or characters of god y. I guess that would hurt miniature sales.

Honestly I agree with you on the whole special characters not being rare. When I play 40k now I pretty much assume any army I play against has 1+ compulsory special characters.

Well, now that the special characters aren't busted like they used to be in Herohammer 40K, it's not so bad.

Personally, I think it was a pretty clever solution to codex glut.

This whole thread is just QQ. Daemon IMO arent that op, and they have randomness that stops them being reliable.

Redbeard wrote:

Entirely Invulnerable

And yet mostly only 5+ saves. So it's good against plasma, and crap against bolters...

First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE!

First Rank, loot corpses. Second Rank, look like we're paying attention, the general might look this way.




Demons hate hordes, demons fall over in the shooting phase worse than anything else in the game (well, more points die, less models, i'll give you). Demons love people with shiny massively elite armies covered in power weapons and Plasma guns.
Every army has foils.

The lack of fluff, I'll accept, because its a damn good point, however.

I once saw a daemons vs daemons game, it pretty much all came down to who got the first turn and who scattered better.

The Spawn ability, Boon of Mutation, right? When is it cast? For some reason (Codex: Chaos Marines maybe?), I'm thinking it's cast at the beginning of the movement phase................

don_mondo wrote:The Spawn ability, Boon of Mutation, right? When is it cast? For some reason (Codex: Chaos Marines maybe?), I'm thinking it's cast at the beginning of the movement phase................

I read it twice thinking I could answer this but the truth is that they never said when to use it. All they state is that it is a ranged attack that can be used while both or either the caster and target are locked in close combat.

don_mondo wrote:The Spawn ability, Boon of Mutation, right? When is it cast? For some reason (Codex: Chaos Marines maybe?), I'm thinking it's cast at the beginning of the movement phase................

There is some confusion, owing to similarities between the CSM & C: Daemons codex.

Gift of Mutation is a CSM psychic power. It is used at the start of the movement phase.
Boon of Mutation is a Daemonic Gift, treated as a shooting attack which can target in/out of CC, and is used in the shooting phase.

Bolt of Change is a CSM psychic power. It is used in the shooting phase, as a psychic shooting attack, 24" S8 AP 1 Assault 1.
Bolt of Tzeentch is a Daemonic Gift, treated as a shooting attack, 24" S8 AP 1 Assault 1.

Wind of Chaos is a CSM psychic power. It is used in the shooting phase, as a psychic shooting attack, assaul 1 flamer template which auto-wounds on a 4+, no armor/cover saves.
Breath of Chaos is a Daemonic gift, treated as a shooting attack, Assault 1 flamer template which auto-wounds on a 4+, no armor/cover saves.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Augustus wrote:What reasons are those? Would you advise the OP not to play vs. demons?

...Khorne's got his army ready and has his battleplan worked out, he's trusted his mighty Herald to take care of things and yeah... y'know what... let's just deploy the other group first and let the stuff we need to be there trickle in. What???

The rules just don't make conceptual sense when combined with the fluff, so I cannot justify this army to myself as being something that fits in 40K. ...they're the reasons I despise the Daemon Army as a concept (as opposed to despising the Chaos Marine Codex just 'cause it's a load of gak).

Touche'!

Me too, I really loved the structure and points in your post, I completely agree, enjoyed the read, thanks for answering my question.

(I really liked the how does the other army know where to go to fight bit...)

Somehow-surprised-yet-alert-and-ready-at-an-unknown-outpost-where-no-one-else-is-at-and....

Funny, and made a point really well.

For more discussion;

I don't think the demon army is an autowin, or unbeatable. Just an obnoxious opponent to face because it has way too many special powers that permeate the army universally (eternal warrior, invulnerable, deep strike and fearless). All this combined with a unique set up, makes an army that is to bizzarre for me to like. The mechanics of actually playing against the demon army, doesn't feel like playing 40k at all.

None of the other 'deep strike armies' are really like this, pods and GKs have tanks, have other units, have some reasonable shooting, are not all fearless etc. only the demon army has the pungent combo of of (eternal warrior, invulnerable, deep strike and fearless) you just have to essentially pick a color.

@ H.B.M.C. - I think that's a very well thought out position. I guess from my point of view I always think there is something else going on. I prefer to think that cultists or chaos space marines have enacted rituals to summon the daemons to the field of battle. Actually that's what I used as my last set of "objective markers"

I really dislike the fact that you can't take daemons in csm armies. However I like being able to field a daemon army on it's own. I certainly have enough daemons to do it. And I think it all comes together pretty well apocalypse style when you can mix them together.

I always think of my 40k games as a zoom in of a much larger conflict in action. It seems to help me with the daemons, but yeah do I wish you could mix the two.

Warmaster wrote:@ H.B.M.C. - I think that's a very well thought out position. I guess from my point of view I always think there is something else going on. ...
I really dislike the fact that you can't take daemons in csm armies. ... I always think of my 40k games as a zoom in of a much larger conflict in action. It seems to help me with the daemons, but yeah do I wish you could mix the two.

I can see that perspective (something else going on). I completely agree with the sentiments about demons in csm armies.

Maybe we are just older players! (heh)

I have never played an apocalypse game with csm and demons, interesting idea...

Augustus wrote:For more discussion;

I don't think the demon army is an autowin, or unbeatable. Just an obnoxious opponent to face because it has way too many special powers that permeate the army universally (eternal warrior, invulnerable, deep strike and fearless). All this combined with a unique set up, makes an army that is to bizzarre for me to like. The mechanics of actually playing against the demon army, doesn't feel like playing 40k at all.

None of the other 'deep strike armies' are really like this, pods and GKs have tanks, have other units, have some reasonable shooting, are not all fearless etc. only the demon army has the pungent combo of of (eternal warrior, invulnerable, deep strike and fearless) you just have to essentially pick a color.

Disclaimer: I play daemons. I also play Guard, Eldar, and Tyranids, and have played Tau & CSM in the past.

While I can understand some of your frustration, I'm fairly sure I can't agree with you. If you start from a position that "Codex: Daemons should exist," almost all of the rest of the rules follow logically.
The army has zero transports and limited mobility - give everything Deep Strike. (It also makes use of an USR, rather than inventing something new.)
"Daemonic assault" correlates to Drop Pod Assault or the Deathwing special rules.
Everything gets an invulnerable save, because daemons have always had an invulnerable save; at least they took the powered armor away from the Bloodletters.
The old "daemonic instability" rules have been subsumed into the core rules as "No retreat" saves.
Every "new" daemonic shooting attack is a reworking of an established CSM power.

Soulgrinders don't fit especially well, I will grant you.

Just an obnoxious opponent to face because it has way too many special powers that permeate the army universally (eternal warrior, invulnerable, deep strike and fearless). All this combined with a unique set up, makes an army that is to bizzarre for me to like. The mechanics of actually playing against the demon army, doesn't feel like playing 40k at all.

This can be said about many army variants. All pod marines have a unique deployment setup, a bunch of special characters with special rules, and army-wide non-USRs like Combat Tactics and ATSKNF. The only thing that makes Daemons "special" is that they have only this one play style; you can't repurpose them by leaving Deep Strike at home this game, in favor of some transports or something. (Also, they are more chaotic on the tabletop, what with the "guess which army you're starting with" and the ability to mishap on landing.)

If Daemons had the option to forgo daemonic assault, would that make them "better," Augustus?

Or to put it differently, what would make them better without creating badly undercosted models? If they got to deploy on the table you'd have to increase ppm by 50% or more in some cases. Either you chop away some of the army's effectiveness or you play with fewer models.

As a guy with a large Khorne/Tzeentch army sitting in my closet I do honestly wish that playing Daemons wasn't so dependent on what your first five dice rolls are at the beginning of the game.

If those dice rolls are good, though, then it tends to be a down hill win from there on out.

sourclams wrote:Or to put it differently, what would make them better without creating badly undercosted models? If they got to deploy on the table you'd have to increase ppm by 50% or more in some cases. Either you chop away some of the army's effectiveness or you play with fewer models.

As a guy with a large Khorne/Tzeentch army sitting in my closet I do honestly wish that playing Daemons wasn't so dependent on what your first five dice rolls are at the beginning of the game.

If those dice rolls are good, though, then it tends to be a down hill win from there on out.

I'm not even talking about effectiveness - just Augustus' subjective opinion about daemons.

I don't know that points would have to change significantly. The daemons still aren't shooting you much from 24"+ away. Most of their units are still moving as infantry, but starting further away than if they DS'd in. (If the Bloodcrushers have to start on the board, they are fairly easy to avoid.) Daemonettes are still overpriced by being S3, T3 models with a 5++ save. The only thing that gets marginally scary is Slaaneshi fiends & mounted daemonettes, with their potential for 19-24" charges...but that's only a problem in spearhead deployments, and then only if the other player lets it be one. I guess Fateweaver's ability becomes more potent, as you can ensure reroll protection for everything, rather than facing the vagaries of the scatter die.

Canonness Rory wrote:I once saw a daemons vs daemons game, it pretty much all came down to who got the first turn and who scattered better.

OMG! I didn't even think of that combination.

So, the game starts with an empty battlefield and then... DAEMONS EVERYWHERE! Yet they have no one to fight as they're the only side on the table. Hmm... but then, during the opposing player's turn, MOAR DAEMONZ!!!!!2 And now they fight. Lucky that both Daemon Legions decided to show up right at the exact same moment at the exact same spot, otherwise there would'a been no fightin'!

And before anyone says "It could be a Daemon world in the Warp", think to yourself - why do Daemons need to be summoned on a Daemon world in the Warp. It makes no sense.

Maybe there was a weak point in the warp and their already taking-place war spilled out into the mortal world.

Actually, daemon on daemon is about the easiest to justify. It's just a weak warp barrier.

Redbeard wrote:Maybe there was a weak point in the...

Demon codex designer's head?

That 2x demon example also demonstrates the absurdity of the army. Rather than slinging hate (which is pretty fun in threads like this), how about a new approach...

Perhaps the Demon Codex is actually BAD because it has such an obvious Achilles heel?

Since the demon codex always uses the same settup with demonic assault, as we established that can be a drawback.

Wouldn't it be fair then to say this also makes the army one dimensional? How fun would a game be against say, 2 fleet officers, or 2 Inquistors, or against other demons, essentially any combo that leaves the game really slanted. Other armies would have some options.

I still say, it's a dumb concept, and not just for thematic, fluff, or nostalgic reasons, but for empirical, game play issues.

P.S. I would improve the demon codex, not by letting it sometimes walk on etc. but instead by tearing it out of the demon dex, and gluing it strait into the CSM list, pretty much verbatim...

Gwar! wrote:

Tyras wrote:Ya can't run the rhino open topped and fire the flame from the fire point?

<(^-^)>

Flamer templates may NEVER be placed so it touches a Friendly Model, if you cannot place it without touching a friendly model, it may not fire. Look at the hatch on the rhino, it is slightly "in", as such, you can never place the template touching the fire point and NOT touching the hull of the rhino.

Hate to whine... but we talked this one through tonight...

How does the Heavy Flamer turret on a chimera fire? You place the flamer template starting at the end of the gun, turret, whatever. The narrow end, however, will always be over the model's hull. Does that mean that gun I swapped my multi-las for cant fire?

(also, hull HF on some models, we think may not reach beyond the end of the hull. Also, all the turret-mount flamers, and the chem-cannon on that hellhound variant, can fire 360 degrees, so backwards. Dont tell me you can ninja that starting beyond the hull.)

So... yes, rules design fail, but... what happens?

Augustus wrote:
Perhaps the Demon Codex is actually BAD because it has such an obvious Achilles heel?

You're welcome to your opinion, I don't agree. I think it's a reasonably good codex. It's certainly not among the most powerful, but it's not a pushover either. I haven't seen any round one 'ard boyz results this year in which a daemon army won - I've seen plenty with guard and marines and even tau though.

Since the demon codex always uses the same settup with demonic assault, as we established that can be a drawback.

Wouldn't it be fair then to say this also makes the army one dimensional? How fun would a game be against say, 2 fleet officers, or 2 Inquistors, or against other demons, essentially any combo that leaves the game really slanted. Other armies would have some options.

Well, playing against the "anti-daemon" stuff is obviously going to be less fun. But many armies have weaknesses that can be exploited. Orks have issues with AV14 and templates.

Honestly, I think the dumbest codex at the moment is the Marine codex. There is zero reason to field a marine army without a special character leading it.

P.S. I would improve the demon codex, not by letting it sometimes walk on etc. but instead by tearing it out of the demon dex, and gluing it strait into the CSM list, pretty much verbatim...

I'd have no problems with that. I started my daemon army because I had a bunch of daemons in my 4th ed Emperor's Children army - and I suspect I'm not alone in this. I'd love to be able to have my marines get the icons in position and land the daemons without risk. Like most chaos players, I would like to have my proper, named daemons to run with my marines instead of generic greater and lesser crap. But that's not a condemnation of the daemon codex, it's a condemnation of GWs choice to split the armies.

Splitting the armies was somewhat fail.

Each book in and of itself, ignoring the old codexes, are quite good, barring the annhiliation of fluff.

Augustus wrote:
P.S. I would improve the demon codex, not by letting it sometimes walk on etc. but instead by tearing it out of the demon dex, and gluing it strait into the CSM list, pretty much verbatim...

Ah, and here we get to the heart of the matter. The codex itself is fine, you just want to have it still be a part of C:SM rather than a stand alone.

Is that such a bad thing?

I got 1st place in round 1 with demons Red =)

Still playing the mostly nurgle army.

I think they look really cool, but I agree there is quite a bit of cheese to an army that can literally wipe half of your crap off the board in the first turn.

If you deploy badly, and my rolls end amazingly well, my Guard can do that to some armies...

Very rare to find an army that cant possibly kill 50% of the opponent's models in one turn.

EDIT: Assuming awful deployment and/or running right into their killzones

Redbeard wrote:Actually, daemon on daemon is about the easiest to justify. It's just a weak warp barrier.

I have no problem with Daemon vs Daemon and, as you said, it is the easiest to justify as the Chaos Gods are constantly fighting each other. But why are they summoned in? Wouldn't a Daemon vs Daemon throw-down just involve Daemons running at each other across the twisted bloodplanes, bonespires and sesspits of the Warp?

They're just a conceptually flawed army created to sell minatures and an 'army' to people who already had an army. For those two massive reasons, they epic fail. Doesn't matter how powerful they are - they could be twice as powerful or half as powerful as they are now - wouldn't make any difference. They're an unnecessary army that should not be in the game.

The demon army can try to DS right by you on turn one. However, he still scatters, so odds are good that he'll roll on the mishap table for at least one unit that tries that.

And boon of mutation really isn't that good. I'll take warptime on my demon prince every time (for CSM). I'm pretty sure that sisters get their save against boon of mutation. I don't have the WH codex. Isn't it a 5+ save against enemy psychic powers?

And yeah, all demons of tzeentch are resilient in melee, even if they don't do much damage. That 4+ invul is hard to beat.

Ahhhh... not really. Horrors, for example, have about the same survivability as a Tau Fire Warrior without much added offensive ability.

Flamers are about as fighty as a Space Marine Scout.

Tzeentch have unusually good resistance to anti-tank weaponry (well, not really if we agree that most units have a 4+ cover save) but die to volume of fire/attacks just like anything else.

Noisy_Marine wrote:And boon of mutation really isn't that good. I'll take warptime on my demon prince every time (for CSM). I'm pretty sure that sisters get their save against boon of mutation. I don't have the WH codex. Isn't it a 5+ save against enemy psychic powers?

Please see my earlier post; Gift of Mutation is a CSM psychic power, against which psychic defenses work; Boon of Mutation is a straight-up shooting attack; psychic defenses don't help any more than they do against being hit by a lascannon.

I played a game of Planetstrike last night where the opposing player made a 2000 point force (using the Planetstrike force org. chart) using both Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines. He was the attacker, and my cousin and I used two 1,000 point Space Marines armies as the defenders.

The Daemons and CSM weren't too overpowered working together and if the guy wanted to field the two together in a regular match, I wouldn't protest. Obviously some rules need to be addressed in a situation like that (not in Planetstrike), but yeah...I don't think people who want to run them together in casual games should feel hog-tied.