If the table edge for arriving units (say, in dawn of war) is completely blocked, can a vehicle tank shock onto the board?

I don't see why not. You're suppose to turn your vehicle in the direction you're tank shocking, but this can just as easily be done off the board as i see it. Everything else from there is regular movement.

Yes. Thats the problem with trying to block off the board. You just tank shock through and everyone follows the tank. Ridcully is right.

No.

If your opponent blocks a table edge you automatically score a moral victory and can walk away from the table without having to do any such tank shock move.

And why is that?

... your army can only follow the tank if the unit tank shocked fails it moral test. If they pass the test the tank simply moves through them

They still have to get out of the way of the tank, leaving a nice gap to walk through.

Mekboy wrote:And why is that?

Because you have the gratification of knowing that your opponent doesn't think he can win in a straight up fight. If your opponent has resorted to trying to stop you from placing a model on the table to win he's basically admitting that he is a massive tool. Instant moral victory (and make sure you tell him that )

Mekboy wrote:They still have to get out of the way of the tank, leaving a nice gap to walk through.

the only part under tank shock about moving other models is if the tank would end up in the same space as enemy models, so if your declared speed takes you completely beyond the enemy unit, they don't move.

Correct, they only have to get out of the way of the tank if they're literally going to be underneath it when it finishes its movement. A unit that passes it's morale test just stands there while the tank continues 'through' the unit.

This means, assuming the enemy unit doesn't fall back, there's only going to be an inch of space around the vehicle if it stops on top of the unit. As models have to remain more than an inch away from enemies, this would be no help unless your tank stops an inch from the edge and your unit is small enough to fit back there without being near enemies on either side. The alternative, again assuming the unit passed it's morale test, is that the tank passes straight through and there's no space made.

Just because an opinion is popular does not make it right. No...you cannot tank shock onto the table.

Tank shocking is a specific category of "movement" that happens during the movement phase, and prescribes a set of directions for doing so.

1. Declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally. That "moving normally" is VERY important.

2. Turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move.

3. The vehicle must move at least at combat speed.

4. Move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared.

5. Resolve tank shock with leadership tests (and/or death or glory).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Important note: Units NOT ON THE TABLE are reserves. Whether mission reserves or true reserves, they are still in reserve.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To bring a unit from reserve into play, you do a few things:

1. At the start of each movement phase except the first, BEFORE MOVING ANY UNIT, the player must roll a dice for each of his units in reserve.

2. Once all units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and DEPLOYS it., moving it onto the table as described later.

**Under the next section "Arriving from Reserves"

3. When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unless its deep striking or outflanking)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problems with tank-shocking from reserve:

1. a tank shock is elected instead of moving normally. However, reserve deployment happens BEFORE normal moves. Bringing a tank onto the board isn't a normal move that can be exchanged for a tank shock...deployment happens first.

2. The MANDATORY conditions of a tank-shock cannot be met by a unit off the table. To execute a tank shock, the first thing you do is turn the vehicle on the spot....you cannot turn a vehicle that has not deployed into the battle.

3. Another mandatory condition of a tank-shock: The vehicle must move at least at combat speed: Units not on the table aren't moving at any speed. They are moving at no speed, and then deploy onto the table. Deploying units can NEVER deploy within 1" of an enemy model.

4. When you tank shock a unit, you stop at the edge of the unit. From there, that unit may choose to death or glory, or they may choose to take a leadership test and get out of the way. If you were to tank shock into a unit at the edge of the board....your tank stops at the edge of my unit. Which *still* leaves you off the board. Units on the table cannot be affected by units off the table. You don't get to fire plasma guns from vehicles in reserve, nor extend a leadership bubble from off the table...stuff off the table has no effect on the game. There isn't an invisible continuing board edge that extends past the boundaries of the table where you may play from. There just isn't.


So no...you can't tank shock onto the table from reserves. Attempting to do so completely ignores all the rules for movement, deploying, and tank shocking.

If you're playing against a speed-freak ork army, or raider spam dark eldar, or maybe even eldar....anything that can get to your table edge and cover the WHOLE thing....and you choose to keep your whole army in reserve....you deserve what you get. That's just poor generalship. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:
If you're playing against a speed-freak ork army, or raider spam dark eldar, or maybe even eldar....anything that can get to your table edge and cover the WHOLE thing....and you choose to keep your whole army in reserve....you deserve what you get. That's just poor generalship. =p

Sorry but if i'm playing mech Tau, Eldar or Dark Elder we just come in off the board edge and laugh that you thought you could stop skimmers that way.

Dashofpepper wrote:Just because an opinion is popular does not make it right.

and neither does your opinion on it no matter how well written, its still an opinion.

this has been brought up several times and general consensus including answers from GW customer service are yes, you can tank shock from reserve. In fact they were the ones who pointed out using this to beat the reserve blocking conga line when that whole annoying ta tactic got brought up.

If you can show me documentation (FAQ or errata) from GW supporting that you can tank shock from reserves, so be it. A random person on the internet saying, "GW said...." is meaningless in any discussion.

Short of that, what I wrote is not an opinion. I quotes the rules for you, then pointed out conflicts in attempting certain actions and where they cannot be resolved together. You're welcome to play HOWEVER you like; its your hobby. However, if you ever play against me, and this situation arises, you can expect me to hold you to following the rules.

Quoting the rules, and applying them correctly, are not the same thing.

You seem to be confusing the term 'deploy' in the rules. When you deploy from reserves, you do it *by* moving onto the board. You do not place the model, and then move; you simply move onto the board.

Dashofpepper wrote:If you can show me documentation (FAQ or errata) from GW supporting that you can tank shock from reserves, so be it. A random person on the internet saying, "GW said...." is meaningless in any discussion.

Short of that, what I wrote is not an opinion. I quotes the rules for you, then pointed out conflicts in attempting certain actions and where they cannot be resolved together. You're welcome to play HOWEVER you like; its your hobby. However, if you ever play against me, and this situation arises, you can expect me to hold you to following the rules.

Except for the fact the only time you actually 'deploy' from reserves is when you deep strike.

All other times, you move from the table edge.

I can't believe that if I moved a skimmer 24" from a table edge that it would count as 'deployment' and not grant me a cover save.

Yeah, despite the impressive wall o text, dash is completely in the wrong on this one. Tank Shocking from off the table is a completely legal move.

#3 is where his argument totally falls to pieces.

As I mentioned earlier, deployment (aka...moving onto the table) happens before the normal movement. Thus, you can't substitute a tank shock for a normal movement because its a deployment movement.

And you can't get past the fact that the board has an edge. Things off the board don't affect things on the board. You can roll up to troops on the edge of the board and declare a tank shock all day; I'm going to ignore it because your tank isn't actually on the board. IE, it isn't in play. You can't shoot me from off the board, you can't assault me from off the board, you can't cause leadership checks and potential death in my unit from OFF THE BOARD.

There's a 48" x 72" table; anything on there is kosher for tank shocks. The rest of the room away from the table is not our playing surface.

So feel free to look at the quotes rules and apply then correctly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bookwrack wrote:Yeah, despite the impressive wall o text, dash is completely in the wrong on this one. Tank Shocking from off the table is a completely legal move.

#3 is where his argument totally falls to pieces.

My "argument" wasn't an "argument." They were several mutually exclusive issues that don't rely on each other to abide by the rules. If you have an objection to #1 through #3 because you choose to interpret the rules differently than they are written, that's fine by you; but you can't get around #4.

Dashofpepper wrote:If you can show me documentation (FAQ or errata) from GW supporting that you can tank shock from reserves, so be it. A random person on the internet saying, "GW said...." is meaningless in any discussion.

Short of that, what I wrote is not an opinion. I quotes the rules for you, then pointed out conflicts in attempting certain actions and where they cannot be resolved together. You're welcome to play HOWEVER you like; its your hobby. However, if you ever play against me, and this situation arises, you can expect me to hold you to following the rules.

play it how you see it. if you and whoever you game with read it this way then fine, more power to you even if you are playing wrong.
just so long as your playing on a level playing field it doesnt really matter.

quoting text is fine and dandy but the way it is interpreted is a different matter entirely.

Dash, you are reading in too much.

The reserve units deploy by 'moving onto the board', it *is* their normal movement, it just starts from the board edge because they are entering from reserves.

Despite your claims, there is no rule that says their movement is not their normal movement for the turn. And if you are right, it entirely breaks the game, since we have nothing telling us how far, or even how, they can move.

Dashofpepper wrote:
3. Another mandatory condition of a tank-shock: The vehicle must move at least at combat speed: Units not on the table aren't moving at any speed. They are moving at no speed, and then deploy onto the table. Deploying units can NEVER deploy within 1" of an enemy model.

P. 94, 'Arriving From Reserves' :"When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unless it's deep striking or outflanking)."

Seeing as how the unit must move (which is a condition for tank shock, btw), it can't not move as dash has claimed.

Bookwrack wrote:
Yeah, despite the impressive wall o text, dash is completely in the wrong on this one. Tank Shocking from off the table is a completely legal move.

#3 is where his argument totally falls to pieces.

QFT

Guys, you have selective reading much? Those four objections are mutually exclusive - addressing one of them in a matter that you feel is satisfactory doesn't annul the rest of them.

Unless we're in agreement?

If you can tank from the edge and are death or gloried what happens to the fellas inside it if it was a transport.

As always, if they can't disembark, they are destroyed

Dashofpepper wrote:As I mentioned earlier, deployment (aka...moving onto the table) happens before the normal movement. Thus, you can't substitute a tank shock for a normal movement because its a deployment movement.

WTF is deployment movement? There is movement. It occurs during the movement phase, shooting phase or assault phase.

It doesn't happen 'before' normal movment. It just happens at the beginning of the movement phase. It's 'normal' movement that just happens to be happening first.

I don't get this 'deployment movement'.

You either deploy or move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

orkcommander wrote:If you can tank from the edge and are death or gloried what happens to the fellas inside it if it was a transport.

If they can't disembark from the transport, they are removed as casualties.

Going to continue quoting myself since everyone seems to be conveniently ignoring the most obvious flaw with the idea of tank shocking from off the table edge...


4. When you tank shock a unit, you stop at the edge of the unit. From there, that unit may choose to death or glory, or they may choose to take a leadership test and get out of the way. If you were to tank shock into a unit at the edge of the board....your tank stops at the edge of my unit. Which *still* leaves you off the board. Units on the table cannot be affected by units off the table. You don't get to fire plasma guns from vehicles in reserve, nor extend a leadership bubble from off the table...stuff off the table has no effect on the game. There isn't an invisible continuing board edge that extends past the boundaries of the table where you may play from. There just isn't.



Yep. If you attempt to tank shock onto the table, regardless of the other points I made....your vehicle is still OFF the table when it "theoretically" would run into a unit on the table. At which point you'd say, "I'm tank shocking you." And your opponent would say, "With what?" And you would say, "This tank that is invisibly sitting at the edge of the table." And your opponent would say, "Stuff that isn't on the table isn't in play. Nope."

If your opponent does not let you tank shock onto your board edge that he blocked himself, he is no gentleman. This is a gentleman's game.

Im not going into a huge arguement here, but Id have to say I see no problem with tank shocking. All the arguements against it are sketchy at best.

Arguments against....

I don't know...like the fact that you're trying to influence the game with stuff that is in reserve? And not on the table?

Well, it no longer is in reserve, its coming onto the table. You assume its making a normal move from the edge of the table. The edge of the table is where the front of the model/base is. It starts there and can do whatever it wants under normal restrictions. There is no deployment move or anything like that, or else youd be able to move when its the movement phase.

I would say can tank-shock onto the field.
But I have to concur with the fact that allowing your whole table to be covered by the enemy is simply bad generalship.

Also, synchronicity is absolutley right. Try to avoid playing with douches. (But never back down from a challenge)

You need to declare that you are making a tank shock after moving at combat speed. Deploying from reserves does not count as moving at combat speed, neither am I conviced you can declare a tank shock with a unit not on the table yet, since units not on the table can only deploy, and can use none of their abilities, until on the table.

This is all conjecture at best, and a serious oversight in the rules which can lead to increadbible arguments. That aside, the biggest issue Dashofpepper brought up that can not be ignored is DEATH OR GLORY!

Even if you get overruled that tank shocking is allowed from reserves, declare death or glory and you deny your opponent any room to rest on the board. There is no arguing against this since there is no possible way to get the vehicle on the table legally.

But that is only if the vehichle is sucessfully stopped by Death or Glory isn't it?

Anyway, ya kind of deserve it for handing your opponent your deployment zone.

So basically if I get my army to block my opponents table edge before he brings in reserves, I would auto win?? That doesn't sound fun =P

Dashofpepper wrote:
4. When you tank shock a unit, you stop at the edge of the unit. From there, that unit may choose to death or glory, or they may choose to take a leadership test and get out of the way. If you were to tank shock into a unit at the edge of the board....your tank stops at the edge of my unit. Which *still* leaves you off the board. Units on the table cannot be affected by units off the table. You don't get to fire plasma guns from vehicles in reserve, nor extend a leadership bubble from off the table...stuff off the table has no effect on the game. There isn't an invisible continuing board edge that extends past the boundaries of the table where you may play from. There just isn't.

QFT

There's no way of getting around this one, regardless of the other points made about movement.

I realise that many people, playing nicely, would see no problem with this, and would allow their opponents to tank shock from off the table.

However, RAW, you cannot get around this rule.

1. In order to tank shock, you MUST stop the model touching the enemy unit. You MUST. It's in the rules.
2. You cannot do this, as the tank would be off the table.
3. The enemy cannot death or glory, as they cannot shoot at a unit that's off the table.
4. You cannot place units halfway on the table, if they cannot completely fit on the table they cannot arrive.

How would you end up in this situation?
I don't see any possibilty of your opponent covering your whole board by turn one. (or even turn 2...or 3). And you should have SOME guys on the field at that point no?

Emperors Faithful wrote:How would you end up in this situation?
I don't see any possibilty of your opponent covering your whole board by turn one. (or even turn 2...or 3). And you should have SOME guys on the field at that point no?

There's a lot of ways infiltrators, bikes with scouts using turbo-booster, ect.

Also I've had games where my army hadn't turned up till turn 4. Since I was playing mech Eldar we would have just jump over the blocking units which is why he didn't bother to try it.

But covering the whole 6 feet of the battlefield?!?

Emperors Faithful wrote:But covering the whole 6 feet of the battlefield?!?

6 foot = 72inches
-1" each side = 70"
models must be within 2" of one another and are on a 1" base. So roughly... Total Number of models = (70/3)+1+(Number of units-1) =

1 unit of 24
2 units of 12.5 (total 25 models)
3 units 8.6 (total 26 models)

ArbitorIan wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
4. When you tank shock a unit, you stop at the edge of the unit. From there, that unit may choose to death or glory, or they may choose to take a leadership test and get out of the way. If you were to tank shock into a unit at the edge of the board....your tank stops at the edge of my unit. Which *still* leaves you off the board. Units on the table cannot be affected by units off the table. You don't get to fire plasma guns from vehicles in reserve, nor extend a leadership bubble from off the table...stuff off the table has no effect on the game. There isn't an invisible continuing board edge that extends past the boundaries of the table where you may play from. There just isn't.

QFT

There's no way of getting around this one, regardless of the other points made about movement.

I realise that many people, playing nicely, would see no problem with this, and would allow their opponents to tank shock from off the table.

However, RAW, you cannot get around this rule.

1. In order to tank shock, you MUST stop the model touching the enemy unit. You MUST. It's in the rules.
2. You cannot do this, as the tank would be off the table.
3. The enemy cannot death or glory, as they cannot shoot at a unit that's off the table.
4. You cannot place units halfway on the table, if they cannot completely fit on the table they cannot arrive.

Sorry, but both of you are wrong. It can be done.

First, is if the models are not on the very extreme edge of the table, all you need is .001" of space between the model and the edge.
Second, if the models are right on the edge, there is still space between them, so all you need to do is enter the board at a slight angle, and you are not on the board, and effecting other units/models on the board.

Your number 4..... is your conjecture, and has no actual support within the rules. The rule "if they cannot completely fit on the table they cannot arrive." does not exist.

agreed with Coredump: Nowhere in the rules does it require you to place the models FULLY on the table when coming on from reserves.

So simply find a point where the base is not entirely touching the edge (hint: its a circle, so there will be such a place) and come on from there.

Agree with what you like, and CONJECTURE various scenarios all you like, but it doesn't change facts:

If an enemy has lined your deployment zone, with 2" coherency across the entire edge of it, then you're done. When you tank shock, you stop at the edge of the unit you are tank shocking. This would require you to stop at the edge of the table, still not on the board.

Answer me this: Can a unit on the table fire at something not on the table?

I'd encourage you to call GW and ask for a rule call.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

coredump wrote:

Your number 4..... is your conjecture, and has no actual support within the rules. The rule "if they cannot completely fit on the table they cannot arrive." does not exist.

Let me flip that around on you: The rules are permissive. Show me in the rules where it says that models and units not on the table may move, fire, and take actions just like things on the table. Its not a case of "I have to show you where you're not allowed to," its more of a case of, "You have to show me where you are allowed to."

The game table is usually 48" by 72". That's the entire surface of the gaming table. Anything not on that gaming surface is irrelevant to the game, except for the two people moving models around on the table.

Ah, your conjecture continues.

The rules state "you must move onto the table"

They do not say "you must move fully onto the table"

By moving 1mm on, you have complied with the rule - the model is on the table. This is a permisive ruleset, I have shown my permission. Now you must show some actual rules (not your repeated conjecture) to restrict this movement. Which you won't be able to do, given there have been multiple page threads on both here and 'seer that have come to the same RAW conclusion.

So since the rulebook doesn't say "You must move fully onto the table" its ok for a 20 man squad to deploy with 1 model on the table and 19 models off the table?

Go away troll.

Who's trolling now? Stop being intentionally obtuse.

So long as each of those twenty models has part of their base on the table, they've met the deployment requirements.

Bookwrack wrote:Who's trolling now? Stop being intentionally obtuse.

So long as each of those twenty models has part of their base on the table, they've met the deployment requirements.

Can you show me that in the rules? I'm not being intentionally obtuse....I may have been in the dark all this time. Something along the lines of "as long as a model is partly on the table...."

Because if that doesn't exist, you're just blowing smoke. When the rulebook refers to deploying "on" the table, the word "on" has a pretty clear meaning. On is not the same as OFF. On is also not the same as "partially present" On/OFF is a switch. You go from one state to the next.


*EDIT* Or better yet, tell me that you're trying to redefine the english language so that it allows you to cheat at a game that is supposed to be a fun social interaction.

If you are partially on the table, then you are on the table. It is by definition, you are partially *on the table*.

So, if you need to move on the table, you can move partially on the table, or fully on the table; both of those are cases of being on the table.


Lets put this in reverse, the rules say you can't move off of the table. So by your logic, that 'really means' you can't move FULLY off the table. So it is okay to move partially off of the table.

That is, of course, ludicrous. The rule says you can't move off, that means you can't move fully off, and you can't move partially off.
The rule says you must move on, that means you can move full on, or partially on.

When you tank shock, you stop at the edge of the unit you are tank shocking. This would require you to stop at the edge of the table, still not on the board.

Or, more correctly.... You move onto the board until you contact the enemy, which in this case, means you enter the board at a slight angle, move the .1" until hitting the side of the model, and stop to resolve the tank shock.

to cheat at a game that is supposed to be a fun social interaction.

So by arguing that there is no way to move their vehicles onto the table from reserves... that is the 'fun' version of the game? I must have missed that.

coredump wrote:

to cheat at a game that is supposed to be a fun social interaction.

So by arguing that there is no way to move their vehicles onto the table from reserves... that is the 'fun' version of the game? I must have missed that.

I'd have to say the person throwing around the word "cheat" is likely to be the one pissing in the fun social interaction pool.

That is certainly how it's going in this thread. See also the one vehemently declaring others as 'troll.'

You can settle this quite easily....

Call GW and ask them if deploying 6" tank model .01mm on the table with the rest of the vehicle off the table is legal. If they go for it, I'm game; short of that....sounds pretty clearly like drivel and a blatant attempt to cheat.

After reading this whole thread, it is clear that DashofPepper has an air-tight arguments with the rules quoted for support (assuming he is quoting accurately).

Unless the aforementioned FAQ/Errata stating otherwise can be ascertained, I have to agree with Dash; which does indeed stink for those trying to sneak a tank through a "conga" line.

maybe this needs to be written up as a RAW vs RAI argument.
RAW = no
RAI = yes
unfortunately GW expects people to have fun with the game and this hole asinine edge blocking tactic never even registered to them due to it. hell, i had to explain it to them 3 times before they would finally agree that it was possible to pull off.
BTW... GW customer service feels tanks can shock onto the board and jump troops can jump over blockers. just FYI since i know the consensus on GWCS

i guess there's more fun to be had in trying to figure out the fastest way to screw your opponent through rules loopholes/inadequacies or enforcing RAW in situations that were never intended to happen than playing the damn game.

*shakes his head in disbelief*

On the one side of it, you have rules, quotes from rules, and a crystal clear answer to the question about tank shocking from off the table.

On the other side of it, you have ignoring the rules, no quotes from the rules, and muddy opinions that come down to nonsensical "the rules don't say I can't flip the gaming table over and stomp on my opponent's models to declare a win for myself, so I'm obviously allowed to" arguments.

Thanks for the support; I feel like an isolated nanny surrounded by screaming children in a daycare center.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

usernamesareannoying wrote:maybe this needs to be choked up to a RAW vs RAI argument.
RAW = no
RAI = yes
unfortunately GW expects people to have fun with the game and this hole asinine edge blocking tactic never even registered to them due to it. hell, i had to explain it to them 3 times before they would finally agree that it was possible to pull off.
BTW... GW customer service feels tanks can shock onto the board and jump troops can jump over blockers. just FYI since i know the consensus on GWCS

i guess there's more fun to be had in trying to figure out the fastest way to screw your opponent through rules loopholes/inadequacies or enforcing RAW in situations that were never intended to happen than playing the damn game.

So you had to explain to (John Spencer probably?) a customer service rep who packs and ships boxes and doesn't spend all day poring over the rules what your case was over and over again until he finally agreed with you to get you off the phone? Why are you even bothering? =p The answers you get are varied and inconsistent.

Lemme say it again: Call GW and ask them if deploying .01mm on the board with the other 99.9% of your model off the board is legal. If they say yes; I'm ok with the idea of tank-shocking onto the table. Short of that....you've got no case.

*EDIT* And as for having more fun trying to figure out the fastest way to screw your opponent, we can revisit this argument. If you wind up in a situation where this happens, you deserve to lose the game on the spot. Such tactical incompetence is literally unforgivable. There's about...ONE deployment option where it could happen, requiring a specific type of army list to pull it off, and requires the other player to hold everything in reserve.......yeah. If it happens to you, you deserve to be laughed out of the store.

P.94:
When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the
table from the controlling player’s own table edge
(unless it’s deep striking or outflanking). Each model’s
move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if
they had been positioned just off the board in the
previous turn and moved as normal.

As per GW, the model is to be treated as if it is off the board and then moves normally, onto the table. Coredump is 100% correct in that a model partially on the table is still on the table. You can claim troll all you like, but he's still correct. If you want to refute this point you need to do some quoting of rules yourself, specifically you'll need to locate a passage claiming that only models fully on the table count as being on the table.

Similarly, if you argue that models off the table cannot affect models on the table you will also need to quote some rules supporting this. Also, I find it strange that you believe models on the table can affect models off the table, since you don't believe the opposite to be true.

Lemme say it again: Call GW and ask them if deploying .01mm on the board with the other 99.9% of your model off the board is legal. If they say yes; I'm ok with the idea of tank-shocking onto the table. Short of that....you've got no case.

As always, a phone call to GW doesn't constitute a ruling in any way, shape, or form. Might as well ask the local red shirt for an equally uninformed response.

To quote Danny's quote:

"...as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."

That clears it up for me.

You pretend the vehicle starts at the board edge, then declare the direction and number of inches you want it to tank shock.

I don't see how that violates any of the rules for moving on the board from reserves, or any of the rules for tank shocking.

willydstyle wrote:To quote Danny's quote:

"...as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."

That clears it up for me.

QFT. It's just movement as normal... except it starts at the board edge.

Of course if someone on that picket line does a DoG on the vehicle it then gets interesting (and uncharted territory rules-wise)... in that case I'd play it as the embarked squad is lost.

The Green Git wrote:

willydstyle wrote:To quote Danny's quote:

"...as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."

That clears it up for me.

QFT. It's just movement as normal... except it starts at the board edge.

Of course if someone on that picket line does a DoG on the vehicle it then gets interesting (and uncharted territory rules-wise)... in that case I'd play it as the embarked squad is lost.

But since the model which makes the DoG attempt must be in the path of the vehicle's movement, you should be able to choose not to move through melta gunners etc.

The further rule quotes you're looking for probably involve deployment and/or disembarking, and the fact that you can never deploy or move within 1" of an enemy unit (except to tank shock or to assault). The inability to deploy a unit because of enemy presence leads to that unit being destroyed. Blah blah blah...read page 1 and original rule quotes.

*EDIT* And I have to throw this in here again...the entire concept is completely ridiculous. So you have a tank with the barest hint of its nose on the table. The rest of the tank is off the table. How do you measure to shoot when its weapons are off the table?

There will never be a game when I allow you to (yes, here it comes) CHEAT by using units not on the table to affect the course of the game on the table.

And as for the quote about "starting from the edge of the table"......yes, you start measuring from the edge of the table, not from OFF THE TABLE. Your models need to fit onto the table, your measuring starting from the edge of the table, and not be within 1" of an enemy unit for it to be a legal deployment. You don't get to start measuring from off the table, you start from the table edge. If your vehicle is 6" long, then you start from the edge of the table, measure how far you'd like it to move, then place it accordingly, following the rules for deployment.

If the entire table edge is walled off....then you're not going to get to do it; your tank is going to be unable to come on from reserves.

Dashofpepper wrote:The further rule quotes you're looking for probably involve deployment and/or disembarking, and the fact that you can never deploy or move within 1" of an enemy unit (except to tank shock or to assault). The inability to deploy a unit because of enemy presence leads to that unit being destroyed. Blah blah blah...read page 1 and original rule quotes.

I did. I found your arguments to be ambiguous at best. The quote that Danny provided was very clear.

willydstyle wrote:
The quote that Danny provided was very clear.

Good! Now follow the rule that he quoted. Measure from the edge of the table, place your vehicle down within its prescribed deployment allotment depending on the type of vehicle it is, and follow the rest of the rules for deployment....specifically the one about not being within 1" of an enemy model.

Then you're all set!

Dashofpepper wrote:Arguments against....

I don't know...like the fact that you're trying to influence the game with stuff that is in reserve? And not on the table?

It's almost like...that was the point...

Important note: Units NOT ON THE TABLE are reserves. Whether mission reserves or true reserves, they are still in reserve.

I call BS on that.

Why? Because it's wrong.

Units that do not deploy in DoW are not in reserve, they are 'off table'. NOWHERE in the rules does it say they're in Reserve, so they aren't.

Thinking you can't Tank Shock onto the table is, above all, terrible sportsmanship, and also, wrong.

Rules don't say wholly on the board - and since it's unlikely that models press-ganged into this service will be able to stop the tank via DoG, it'll continue it's distance anyway. I wonder if you'd say a Baneblade can't ever enter play...

EDIT: Where, exactly, in the DEPLOYMENT rules does it say you have to be 1.0000000000000001"+ from enemy models?

Dashofpepper wrote:

willydstyle wrote:
The quote that Danny provided was very clear.

Good! Now follow the rule that he quoted. Measure from the edge of the table, place your vehicle down within its prescribed deployment allotment depending on the type of vehicle it is, and follow the rest of the rules for deployment....specifically the one about not being within 1" of an enemy model.

Then you're all set!

All set for what? Hint: it helps if your response actually has something to do with the topic you're posting in. How about you take a couple breaths, cool your jets, and take the time to reread the rules you're trying to argue so you get them right?

Models moving in from off the table move as if they're starting from just off the table. You don't pick a spot six inches in and plunk it down there and call it deployment. That's why tank shocking works. Of course, if you only have a half-inch to roll onto the table on, then you can't take a valid measure to the weapons, so unfortunately, no shooting. It's a grey area not properly addressed that hearkens back to the problem of what to do when you want to bring a model on (like a Monolith or a Landraider) which is too long to deploy with a normal move. Or in the Monolith's case, it's maximum move. Or are you going to disallow a Necron player from moving their Monolith onto the table because the model is 7" wide, but can only move 6" forward?

@Dash: you keep mentioning that moving on the table from reserves (Dawn of War tells us that the first turn movement is "just like units moving in from reserves) is "deployment." However, in the "preparing reserves" section on page 94, the rules are pretty specific in saying that by putting a unit in reserves you are not "deploying" it.

When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve.

And then nowhere in the "arriving from reserves" section does it mention that the units which are arriving use any of the deployment rules. It simply states that they move on from the board edge. It does not say that they "deploy from the board edge."

Willy...that's all fine and dandy. There are a plethora of reasons why tank-shocking onto the table cannot function within the rules, and I'm not trying to argue each and every one of them. If I have to pick one and stick with it, I'll reiterate.


From the moving rules: A model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

The exception to this is tank shocking.

Models in reserve act as if they had started just off the table and move onto the board. If I'm lining the back table edge....I don't care how you spin it, you can't get onto the table; there's not room. There's nothing in the rules allowing you to run models off the gaming surface as long as .001mm or whatever are still exposed on the gaming surface. "Haha! You can only see my front armor, because its the only part of my vehicle on the table!" If the rules don't say that you can do something, then you cannot. Its not the opposite, where you can do something as long as the rules don't prohibit you from doing so.

You have to move onto the table from reserve, which is off the table. You can't shoot from off the table, get up to ramming speed from off the table, assault from off the table, or do anything else while NOT on the table except....move onto the table. I might even go so far in cutting hairs as to point to tank shock where it says that its substituted for a "normal move" and that deploying from reserves isn't a normal move since it doesn't occur like every other movement you make in the game. You measure from different spots and do different things.

Think of the reverse of what you're saying. If you're allowed to ATTACK from off the table....then why not shoot from off the table too? Why not assault? If I have a deffrolla on a battlewagon, and I deffrolla into troops from off the table, what then? Ramming into a vehicle from off the table? They all fit into the same bag of things you can't do.

"deploying from reserves isn't a normal move since it doesn't occur like every other movement you make in the game. You measure from different spots and do different things. "

So far, this is the only point you've made that is how a from-reserves movement interacts with the rules for tank shocking. I could see how moving from the board edge could be seen as other than "normal movement." However, GW does not define what is a "normal move" either.

Combine with the fact that the rule tells you to move the arriving unit "as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn." Well... that sounds an awful lot like a "normal move" to me.

Dashofpepper wrote: You can't shoot from off the table, get up to ramming speed from off the table, assault from off the table, or do anything else while NOT on the table except....move onto the table. I might even go so far in cutting hairs as to point to tank shock where it says that its substituted for a "normal move" and that deploying from reserves isn't a normal move since it doesn't occur like every other movement you make in the game.

There are few things that can influence the game from off the table, but they do exist (Lictors, Orbital Bombardment, etc).

As far as saying you cannot get up to ramming speed from off the table? You actually made that up just now.

Carry on!

It just says it must move combat speed. Since the tank is on the board edge as if it made a normal move last turn, you simply move and youre already moving at combat speed, and can therefore tank shock. I dont see why its so complicated here.

willydstyle wrote:"deploying from reserves isn't a normal move since it doesn't occur like every other movement you make in the game. You measure from different spots and do different things. "

So far, this is the only point you've made that is how a from-reserves movement interacts with the rules for tank shocking. I could see how moving from the board edge could be seen as other than "normal movement." However, GW does not define what is a "normal move" either.

Combine with the fact that the rule tells you to move the arriving unit "as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn." Well... that sounds an awful lot like a "normal move" to me.

Your *VERY* selective reading and answering makes it difficult to have an intelligent conversation with you when you simply ignore all information relevant to a conversation and choose to pursue tangents.

I honestly feel like I'm talking to an autistic child.

"Willy, would you like to have macaroni and cheese for dinner or hot dogs?"

Willy: OR! OR! ORS PADDLE BOATS! I LIKE BOATS!

"Focus Willy! I'm asking what you want for dinner?"

Willy: FOR! FOR! *imitates golf swing* FOOOOOOR!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Night Lords wrote:It just says it must move combat speed. Since the tank is on the board edge as if it made a normal move last turn, you simply move and youre already moving at combat speed, and can therefore tank shock. I dont see why its so complicated here.

Its *not* complicated. Your tank that would like to tank shock ends up not being on the table for the pretend tank shock, and thus....well....do me a favor and read posts above this one so I don't have to write it all again. Unless you're just being annoying. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:

willydstyle wrote:"deploying from reserves isn't a normal move since it doesn't occur like every other movement you make in the game. You measure from different spots and do different things. "

So far, this is the only point you've made that is how a from-reserves movement interacts with the rules for tank shocking. I could see how moving from the board edge could be seen as other than "normal movement." However, GW does not define what is a "normal move" either.

Combine with the fact that the rule tells you to move the arriving unit "as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn." Well... that sounds an awful lot like a "normal move" to me.

Your *VERY* selective reading and answering makes it difficult to have an intelligent conversation with you when you simply ignore all information relevant to a conversation and choose to pursue tangents.

I honestly feel like I'm talking to an autistic child.

"Willy, would you like to have macaroni and cheese for dinner or hot dogs?"


Willy: OR! OR! ORS PADDLE BOATS! I LIKE BOATS!

"Focus Willy! I'm asking what you want for dinner?"

Willy: FOR! FOR! *imitates golf swing* FOOOOOOR!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Night Lords wrote:It just says it must move combat speed. Since the tank is on the board edge as if it made a normal move last turn, you simply move and youre already moving at combat speed, and can therefore tank shock. I dont see why its so complicated here.

Its *not* complicated. Your tank that would like to tank shock ends up not being on the table for the pretend tank shock, and thus....well....do me a favor and read posts above this one so I don't have to write it all again. Unless you're just being annoying. =p

If you were to start actually quoting rules, and stop making dismissive comments about the rules that actually are quoted, then it would be easier to make intelligent responses to what you have to say. As what you've been saying has not been actual rules, I don't feel like I should have to break up what you write by bullet points simply to say "that's not in the rules."

Willy, I quoted all the relevant rules on my first post on page one. You all ignoring them isn't grounds to require me to continue writing them over and over again, though I've done so a few times here.

I think everyone is getting distracted from the focal point of Dash's arguement.

The vehicle stops at the edge of the unit. The vehicle is still off the table. You can't death or glory a vehicle off the table as you cannot affect something off the table. A vehicle off the table can't affect a unit on the table. Therefore, no tank shock.

The whole .1mm thing is silly....if one right, you cannot legally put a vehicle on the table within 1 inch of an enemy model, which means it will still be off.

It is simple logic, and Dash is right.

How about this....a Guard player takes Alrahem and is outflanking. Guardsmen move 6 inches, so that means his platoon is 6 inches off either of the short board table edges. Can I line up units on those edges and shoot at them? No, I can't because they are off the table. Nor can they shoot at me, although we know they have to be within 6 inches of the edge.

Dashofpepper wrote:Willy, I quoted all the relevant rules on my first post on page one. You all ignoring them isn't grounds to require me to continue writing them over and over again, though I've done so a few times here.

First of all, you indiscriminately mixed quotations with paraphrasing and interpretation. Quotes usually feature either sources or funny little characters that look like this: "

Second of all, none of the rules you paraphrased addressed any of the issues I brought to your attention, specifically the need to support your own opinions about models needing to be fully on the table and off-table models affecting other models.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Its *not* complicated. Your tank that would like to tank shock ends up not being on the table for the pretend tank shock, and thus....well....do me a favor and read posts above this one so I don't have to write it all again. Unless you're just being annoying. =p

Im not trying to be annoying, I just dont understand why it needs to be on the table at all. The rules state the front of it is sitting on the edge. If youre in base to base with the edge, youre in base to base with the tank and you must take a ld test if he declares hes going through you. Its very shady however if its stopped before it gets on, and I dont care enough to try to figure it out (if its even possible).

The vehicle stops at the edge of the unit. The vehicle is still off the table. You can't death or glory a vehicle off the table as you cannot affect something off the table. A vehicle off the table can't affect a unit on the table. Therefore, no tank shock.

The whole .1mm thing is silly....if one right, you cannot legally put a vehicle on the table within 1 inch of an enemy model, which means it will still be off.

It is simple logic, and Dash is right.

Read the entire thread. This was already addressed by another poster who pointed out that the nature of rounded bases makes this pretty much impossible, even if lined up across the entirety of the board edge, base-to-base.

Dashofpepper wrote:Your *VERY* selective reading and answering makes it difficult to have an intelligent conversation with you when you simply ignore all information relevant to a conversation and choose to pursue tangents.

This is fine, as it is about the user's post.

Dashofpepper wrote:
I honestly feel like I'm talking to an autistic child.

This is a clear violation of Rule #1. You have been warned before, and further violations will result in temporary suspensions.

Modquisition on: Gentlemen
This thread has been reported. I've read just a few posts and several violate Rule #1-be polite. This is a not gentle reminder that this cardinal rule is to be obeyed at all times. Argue the points. If you can't do so in a non-insulting manner than do not post.

Edit: This thread is being reviewed to ascertain if disciplinary actions are needed.

Danny Internets wrote:

The vehicle stops at the edge of the unit. The vehicle is still off the table. You can't death or glory a vehicle off the table as you cannot affect something off the table. A vehicle off the table can't affect a unit on the table. Therefore, no tank shock.

The whole .1mm thing is silly....if one right, you cannot legally put a vehicle on the table within 1 inch of an enemy model, which means it will still be off.

It is simple logic, and Dash is right.

Read the entire thread. This was already addressed by another poster who pointed out that the nature of rounded bases makes this pretty much impossible, even if lined up across the entirety of the board edge, base-to-base.

I fail to see how you can get enough space to be considered on the table because you A. can't come within in an inch of an enemy model and B. have to stop at the edge of the unit. You simply cannot get onto the table. And you are making the same diversionary arguement and not addressing the critical part of Dash's theory.

General Hobbs wrote:
I fail to see how you can get enough space to be considered on the table because you A. can't come within in an inch of an enemy model and B. have to stop at the edge of the unit. You simply cannot get onto the table. And you are making the same diversionary arguement and not addressing the critical part of Dash's theory.

Tank shocking requires base to base, so that little bit of space would get you on the table.

Just for giggles, I'm going to throw this one out there for the third time.

Please stop abusing the English language to attempt finangling this attempted cheat. We need to (again) revisit the word "on."

"On the table" is not to be confused with "looking at the table" or "fractionally in relation to the table" or even "partly on the table" nor even "mostly on the table." Traffic lights do not go from green to somewhat green to fractionally yellow, still pondering green.

On is the opposite of off. They are mutually exclusive with each other, and your attempts here to merge the words "on" and "off" into a grotesque parody of language to get the word "noff" doesn't make "noff" an actual gaming term. Here are some simple examples to provide parallels to the currect situation.

1. You are instructed to place a rack of clothing on the sidewalk. Instead, you place the rack of clothing on the grass, while ensuring that a single wheel of the rack touches the sidewalk. Have you followed instructions?

2. You are instructed to turn the lights in the living room on. Instead, you place a burning candle in the living room. Have you followed instructions?

3. In America, the law requires you to drive on the right side of the road, and not cross over solid yellow lines in the middle. While driving, you drive on the left side of the road, with your right wheel crossing the line to extend into the proper lane. Are you following instructions?

4. You are instructed to sign on the dotted line of a contract. Instead, you tape a piece of paper to the contract, put the first letter of your name at the end of the dotted line, and sign onto the taped on piece of paper with a flourish. Have you followed instructions?

5. You are instructed to place your miniature plastic or metal model on the table. Instead, you place a fraction of the tip of it onto the table. Have you followed instructions?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made the requisite rule quotes much earlier in the thread. Then I pointed out specific parts of them when they were ignored. Then I pointed out specific parts of the rules again...and again...when illogic continued to attempt prevailing. Finally, I started ridiculing people out of sheer disbelief that such behavior and selective reading should exist here. My bad; that wasn't the right course to take.

I really don't think there's any other way that I can put it. I've quoted the rules, I've linked them together, I've given analogies, I've provided examples where core rules would be broken if attempting to tank shock off the table, I've provided examples of the slippery slope to complete game meltdown that would begin by tank-shocking off the table...I've even provided handy real-life examples of similar requirements to those that a select group of individuals here are studiously ignoring and all of it seems to fall on deaf ears.

There's nothing more I can really say. But do understand this: If anyone were to waste my time in a tournament attempting to be as flagrantly abusive in an attempt to cheat their way out of their own poor tactical decisions, I hope that the tournament organizer would not be gentle.

I think that's about all there is left for me to contribute to this thread. Good day!

Ah, right, *I'm* the troll. Whatever.

The rules require you to be on the table - you're right there. However if the model is touching the table surface, it is on the table. If that is 1mm or the entire model it doesnt matter - it is on the table. You are adding in extra words to make it seem like someone is cheating, which means you are being a hypocrite.

You did not quote all the rules, you made a 4th point which was pure, pure conjecture (a nice way of saying "made up") and which has been disproved. If you wish there is a 10ish page thread on 'Seer which thoroughly disproves every point you made on that regard. Giving it a read would be an idea....

So, to answer the OP: you can indeed tank shock on, as there *must* be a gap (round bases remember) where you can stop to perform the shock.

*EDIT* Or better yet, tell me that you're trying to redefine the english language so that it allows you to cheat at a game that is supposed to be a fun social interaction.

Exactly, this game is a social one. By pulling some move like this regardless of what the rules say, venue or any other factor you have just alienated any one you would play against. If some one were to pull a move like this in any setting anywhere against me I would just pack my stuff up and leave. In a tournament I would concede the game an proceed to give them a 0 on any soft score I could because it absolutely ruins the game. It is this kind of rules lawyering and win at all costs attitude that has caused so many experienced players to leave the hobby entirely.

Dashofpepper wrote:cheat
cheat
that's about all there is left for me to contribute to this thread.

It's telling that you're argument is so weak that that is all you have to fall back on to try and shore it up. Read the rule book, more importantly, read the rules relevant to this topic, understand the issue being brought up, and try again. Maybe then you'll actually have something you can better support.

Point 5 (the only one actually relevant to anything being discussed here - you're lucky letters are free, and I have to applaud your careful conservation of punctuation marks for the rest of us) of your tantrum is of course, where you completely lose any semblance of a point. Since you can't point to any rule that forces a model rolling onto the board to enter completely (so again, what would you do with a Necron opponent who wants their Monolith to move on on the first turn of a DoW game?) if it can move one enough to satisfy the conditions for tank-shocking, why would it not be a legal move? (that is rather the sticking point - if the wall of border guards is btb with the very edge of the table, you're going to need skimmers or deep strikers, but if you're able to squeeze onto the board, nothing to keep you from being good to go).

Dash, it's you messing with the English Language if you call that 'contributing' to the thread.

How is 90% off the table considered on? The rules for Tank Shock clearly state you must stop when you get into contact with the enemy model. Which leaves you off of the table which means you cant tank shock. Since when did you make the call become a place for RAI? Its always been about RAW. This whole RAI is why I get into huge arguments at my hobby shop, its very frustrating. The only way to satisfy the english definition of the word ON is to have the model be completely on the table. When I turn my laptop ON, its has to be 100% on, even 99% wont turn it on. How Dash is wrong is beyond me.

If you're not completley on the board, you're not on.
Take a look at when models flee, If they are even TOUCHING the board edge they are considered to have fled off. This is also the same for deep-striking units and mishaps.

Saying you can Tank-Shock while off the board is like saying you can CHARGE the units at the table edge.

P.S. I think you deserve it for letting yourself get in that fix so NAH!

Emperors Faithful wrote:If you're not completley on the board, you're not on.
Take a look at when models flee, If they are even TOUCHING the board edge they are considered to have fled off. This is also the same for deep-striking units and mishaps.

Saying you can Tank-Shock while off the board is like saying you can CHARGE the units at the table edge.

P.S. I think you deserve it for letting yourself get in that fix so NAH!

Ok for my counter arguement I state something similiar to what you first said.

If you're not completley on the board, you're not on.

If I am told not to go on fire for I shall get burnt, if I only put one foot on the fire I am not on the fire so I shall not get burnt.

or

I may not go on the apple for fear it shall break, but if I step on it, only one foot is on it so I am not actually on it so nothing will happen.

Fleeing units count as destroyed when they touch the table edge, this just stops them from being partially on the table, which would still be on the table

I agree with DashofPepper that you cannot tank shock.

On the other hand, there is no actual rule supporting the idea that units that cannot deploy from reserves are deployed. There are inferences from other rules regarding deployment, but no concrete rule for this situation.

I read the whole thread with interest and think both sides have some arguments that need to be considered.

However, I'd really like to hear if the No-tank-shock fraction won't allow the Necron Monolith or the Baneblade to move in from reserves. Because, when you won't allow a model that fits 0.01" onto the table to tank shock from there, it should be prohibited to move the vehicles stated above from the table edge, I guess. (I have to admit I'm not aware of the actual length of a baneblade or monolith because I don't own any, I'll assume those people who stated that they're longer than 6" are right.)

And its ON/OFF here, too - if you can't tank shock from being 0.01" on the table, then you can not move the big guns in from reserve. Anything else would be inconsistent.


Apart from that: If the border guards were standing closer than 2" from each other, it could very well be possible that not even the smallest part of a tank or model could be placed on a table (Because even with round bases you wouldn't get a full inch of space between opposing models.) In this case, tank shock would not be in order, I think. However, just a little space and we're back to monolith/BB question (and I personally think it is possible, due to a rules quotation about moving from the table edge above in the thread.)

This is an interesting thread and I hope it won't die because someone gets all mad about it, I hope for further civilized discussion.

Just to address some of dashofpepper's points:

The rules for moving onto the board for Dawn of War state that the model moves onto the board as if it had been positioned on that side of the board edge. This means that the model is at that position, despite the fact that it could not legally move to that position (it is, after all, not on the table), and thus completely circumvents the prohibition against 1" movement because it is treated as if it had already been positioned at that spot.

As far as the requirement for rotating on the spot for tank shock, again the rules state that the model is treated as being positioned at the board edge.

The argument that the vehicle cannot have a movement speed is ludicrous because if that is the case then no vehicle would be able to move onto the board, whether from reserves or for the Dawn of War first turn movement. Secondly, the statement that a tank shocking vehicle must travel at at least combat speed means that it must attempt to travel at that speed, or further, since one of the very real possibilities of tank shock is being immobilized before reaching combat speed.

As far as whether a unit moving onto the table can tank shock, or perform other special moves, the text for arriving from reserves says that the unit is "moved as normal". The text for tank shock does not say anything at all about tank shock being something done instead of moving normal, but simply says "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally." I have not seen a convincing argument in this thread that a unit which is "moved as normal" is somehow prohibited from using any of the alternatives which are available to a unit positioned on the board.

On the point of what happens if the tank shocking vehicle gets immobilized while trying to move onto the board, that's an entirely separate issue. What happens if a tank tries to move onto the board through difficult terrain and fails its dangerous terrain test? It's the same problem, and doesn't have any direct bearing on the ability to tank shock.

solkan wrote: "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally." I have not seen a convincing argument in this thread that a unit which is "moved as normal" is somehow prohibited from using any of the alternatives which are available to a unit positioned on the board.

Couldn't resist one last snipe....

How's this for a convincing argument? You don't get to attack from off the table. You have to be on the table to attack something. Read up a few posts; I addressed this one already. The only thing you're allowed to do is MOVE onto the table. No shooting, no assaulting, no attacking. You have to be on the table for any of those things to work.

The mere fact that you acknowledge that tank shocking from off the table onto the table can cause a myraid of grey issues and broken rules should clue you in on whether you can do it or not.

So you ignore that the statement "on the table" is not qualified and this undermines your entire argument?

GOod one. COntinue sniping away troll.

Dashofpepper wrote:

solkan wrote: "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally." I have not seen a convincing argument in this thread that a unit which is "moved as normal" is somehow prohibited from using any of the alternatives which are available to a unit positioned on the board.

Couldn't resist one last snipe....

How's this for a convincing argument? You don't get to attack from off the table. You have to be on the table to attack something. Read up a few posts; I addressed this one already. The only thing you're allowed to do is MOVE onto the table. No shooting, no assaulting, no attacking. You have to be on the table for any of those things to work.

The mere fact that you acknowledge that tank shocking from off the table onto the table can cause a myraid of grey issues and broken rules should clue you in on whether you can do it or not.

You're attempt at a last minute argument falls flat. A tank which is tank shocking isn't attacking, it is performing an action which it would be allowed to do if it was on the table instead of moving normally, and because it is conducting a normal move and positioned as if it were on the table, that action is permissible. Are you next going to say that a unit is not allowed to turbo boost in from reserves?

If vague or broken rules were the grounds for not allowing an actions, we may as well throw out half of the remaining third edition codices, and then get started on the other codices because those have even more issues.

Obviously, if Immob'd at the board edge, it is destroyed.

Dash, still no answer to the Baneblade/Monolith question? Of course not. That would mean you'd have to accept your BS logic falls flat on its face.

Aye, would really like to hear that answer, too!

How's this for a convincing argument? You don't get to attack from off the table. You have to be on the table to attack something. Read up a few posts; I addressed this one already. The only thing you're allowed to do is MOVE onto the table. No shooting, no assaulting, no attacking. You have to be on the table for any of those things to work.

Tank shocking is both movement and an attack.

p.68:
To make this kind of attack, first turn the vehicle on the
spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare
how many inches the vehicle is going to move.

Where's the rule that says you can't make any sort of attack from off table? Please provide both a quotation and page number.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

"On the table" is not to be confused with "looking at the table" or "fractionally in relation to the table" or even "partly on the table" nor even "mostly on the table." Traffic lights do not go from green to somewhat green to fractionally yellow, still pondering green.

On is the opposite of off. They are mutually exclusive with each other, and your attempts here to merge the words "on" and "off" into a grotesque parody of language to get the word "noff" doesn't make "noff" an actual gaming term. Here are some simple examples to provide parallels to the currect situation.

Let's put your odd little scrap of logic to the test.

Look at the following picture: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Iioo_NdWQCLdAnB5o_5ymg?feat=directlink

Is the book on the table? If not, then where exactly is it?

Stop calling that logic, please.

Dash, I can play those games too.

If you sit on the desk, are you on the desk? your legs aren't.
If you are not allowed to stand on the carpet, and only put one foot on it, will you still get in trouble?
If the teacher says to put the book on the table, and the corner of the book is hanging over, is it still on the table?

Partially on *is* a on. It is even in the name. Partially *ON*.
That is why we have words to distinguish the difference, like fully on, completely on, all the way on. Otherwise they would not be needed.


But it is your assertion, that 'partially on' is *not* the same as 'on'.

So lets look elsewhere in the rules.
You can't be 'on' impassable terrain. So, by your assertions, I can be partially on, since that is not 'On'.
You can't be 'on' an enemy model. So, by your assertions, I can be partially on another model.
How about cover? When you are partially in area terrain, the rules clarify that as being the same as being in area terrain.
Difficult terrain: If you are only partly on, your assertion means no roll is needed, since I am not really 'on' the terrain.


And I noticed the reverse has been totally ignored.
If it is as you claim, and that sayin 'on' really means 'fully on'; then what about the reverse?
When the rules say 'off', do they really mean 'fully off'.
The rules say you can't go off the board. So by your assertion, you can go partially off the board, since partially off is not the same as 'off'.


The point of this, is that being 'partially on/off' still meets the criteria of being 'on/off'.



So, once you are partially on the table, you are on the table. Thus you can now tank shock.

.

Danny Internets: Your request for a rule quote is absurd. As you well know, the 40k rules are permissive, not restrictive. The rules tell you what you may do and how to do it, not what you may not do, with everything else allowed. This has been hashed and rehashed; I wish you'd stop bringing up old and answered arguments.

There is no rule quote that says, "Models are not allowed to be partially off the table" because there is a rule that says "Models must be on the table." Don't be ridiculous.

And coredump....your analogies are horrible. The rules do NOT say models "partially on the table." Do not add words to the rulebook with the intent of abusing them...as you continue to try doing.

The rulebook sets forth a condition that we will call "X." The analogies I gave are for setting a condition X, and asking whether you meet the condition or not.

The analogies that you're throwing in there are for behavioral references and "-X" conditions. Meeting the condition "-X" is not the same as meeting condition "X."

Let me revise your analogies into something parallel to the rules and the situation here.

You are instructed to stand on a desk. You place one foot on the desk and one foot on a chair. Have you followed instructions?
You are instructed to stand on the carpet. You put one foot on the carpet and one foot on the tile floor. Have you followed instructions?
The teacher tells you to put a book on the table. You pull up an adjoining table and put it on the adjoining table with the corner touching the table you were instructed to place it on. Are you following instructions?
------------------------------------------
As for the monolith and the baneblade (and vendetta)....this is NOT a case of "Can the model hang off the board a bit because the model is too big to fit onto the table? That's a COMPLETELY seperate issue from "Can I put the tip corner of a vehicle onto the table with 99.9% of it off the table and call it a legal move?"

Again....your sole argument here is skewing scenarios. If you wish to continue making comparisons, please use apples to apples, and oranges to oranges.

We're not talking about whether a monolith is too big to fit onto the table....we're talking about whether it is legal to put a fractional corner of the monolith onto the table and call it an ok movement. No...it is not.

Danny Internets: Your request for a rule quote is absurd. As you well know, the 40k rules are permissive, not restrictive. The rules tell you what you may do and how to do it, not what you may not do, with everything else allowed. This has been hashed and rehashed; I wish you'd stop bringing up old and answered arguments.

Translation: "You're wrong but I can't demonstrate why."

Indeed, the rules are permissive. In fact, they permit models arriving from reserve to move as if they are off the table, moving on to the table. Your point of argument seems to be the meaning of "on the table." I thought we had already established that, but you seem to have missed it.

Please answer the question posed to you. And, no, you haven't addressed it yet (funny how whenever you don't feel like addressing a criticism you simply dismiss it saying you've already discussed it):

Look at the following picture: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/uuSaJFh01ovZEVW74qmWmA?feat=directlink

Is the book on the table? If not, then where exactly is it?

So for Dawn of war, is it cool, if my battlewagon is only partially on the table? and I dont want to finish moving it on? Thats not a legal move, but by your reasoning it is? The rules even say youre not supposed to move off the table, the model stops at the edge as soon as the base touches it, so how is it ok to play partially on or off the table when the precedent has been set? And RAW no a monolith cant come on from reserve since its too big, I bane blade can though, sideways.

Why are the pro tank shockers ignoring the fact that the vehicle stops as soon as it hits the unit during tank shock? Can a unit function from off the table?

Also Danny Internets. You quoted it being an attack (tank shock) Is it cool if my Basilisks barrage you from off the table? thats an attack.

nosferatu1001 wrote:GOod one. COntinue sniping away troll.

Can we have a moratorium on people shouting 'troll' please?

Also, still waiting for an answer on the monolith/baneblade trying enter question from the 'must be 100%' on the board side.

Why are the pro tank shockers ignoring the fact that the vehicle stops as soon as it hits the unit during tank shock? Can a unit function from off the table?

In the turn in which it comes in from reserve it most certainly can. The rules are explicit on that point. You should probably review them, they've been quoted more than once in this thread.

You can tank shock onto the table. Movement is normal when coming in from reserve and there are no restrictions that would prevent this.

Dashofpepper wrote:Just because an opinion is popular does not make it right. No...you cannot tank shock onto the table.

Tank shocking is a specific category of "movement" that happens during the movement phase, and prescribes a set of directions for doing so.

1. Declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally. That "moving normally" is VERY important.

2. Turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move.

3. The vehicle must move at least at combat speed.

4. Move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared.

5. Resolve tank shock with leadership tests (and/or death or glory).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Important note: Units NOT ON THE TABLE are reserves. Whether mission reserves or true reserves, they are still in reserve.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To bring a unit from reserve into play, you do a few things:

1. At the start of each movement phase except the first, BEFORE MOVING ANY UNIT, the player must roll a dice for each of his units in reserve.

2. Once all units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and DEPLOYS it., moving it onto the table as described later.

**Under the next section "Arriving from Reserves"

3. When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unless its deep striking or outflanking)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problems with tank-shocking from reserve:

1. a tank shock is elected instead of moving normally. However, reserve deployment happens BEFORE normal moves. Bringing a tank onto the board isn't a normal move that can be exchanged for a tank shock...deployment happens first.

2. The MANDATORY conditions of a tank-shock cannot be met by a unit off the table. To execute a tank shock, the first thing you do is turn the vehicle on the spot....you cannot turn a vehicle that has not deployed into the battle.

3. Another mandatory condition of a tank-shock: The vehicle must move at least at combat speed: Units not on the table aren't moving at any speed. They are moving at no speed, and then deploy onto the table. Deploying units can NEVER deploy within 1" of an enemy model.

4. When you tank shock a unit, you stop at the edge of the unit. From there, that unit may choose to death or glory, or they may choose to take a leadership test and get out of the way. If you were to tank shock into a unit at the edge of the board....your tank stops at the edge of my unit. Which *still* leaves you off the board. Units on the table cannot be affected by units off the table. You don't get to fire plasma guns from vehicles in reserve, nor extend a leadership bubble from off the table...stuff off the table has no effect on the game. There isn't an invisible continuing board edge that extends past the boundaries of the table where you may play from. There just isn't.


So no...you can't tank shock onto the table from reserves. Attempting to do so completely ignores all the rules for movement, deploying, and tank shocking.

If you're playing against a speed-freak ork army, or raider spam dark eldar, or maybe even eldar....anything that can get to your table edge and cover the WHOLE thing....and you choose to keep your whole army in reserve....you deserve what you get. That's just poor generalship. =p

I don't have anything to add to this that can be put into words better than Dashofpepper already has. But I wanted to throw in my support to him and the other "No Tank Shocking from reserve" crowd.

I think it's absolutly crazy to think that one can tank shock from reserve when the tank shock rules are written the way they are. The biggest thing that kills it is the part where the tank stops before hitting the target unit and waits for them to react. The tank at that time is off the board and in my opinion should not have anything to do with the pieces on the board already.

I think t's important to remember that most of us will never see a situation come up where someone has nowhere to deploy from their table edge.

Wow what a rules lawyer attitude. It seems to me the anti tank shock crowd are all about WAAC. So the tank stops... it is only momentary if successful. You are looking too deep in the abyss my friend. Take a deep breath and loosen up.

augustus5 wrote:I don't have anything to add to this that can be put into words better than Dashofpepper already has. But I wanted to throw in my support to him and the other "No Tank Shocking from reserve" crowd.

I think it's absolutly crazy to think that one can tank shock from reserve when the tank shock rules are written the way they are. The biggest thing that kills it is the part where the tank stops before hitting the target unit and waits for them to react. The tank at that time is off the board and in my opinion should not have anything to do with the pieces on the board already.

I think t's important to remember that most of us will never see a situation come up where someone has nowhere to deploy from their table edge.

You missed the point where it is demonstrated that, at the time of the tank shock, the tank CAN be on the table. Which throws your argument out the window.

Dash - is "on the table" in any way qualified? No. Thus putting it 1mm on is fulfilling it. You really, really haven't got an argument against this, despite your attempts at deliberately twisting words.

You are the one adding and changing words, or in other words attempting to deliberately cheat. Well done.

Even though it is a fantasy game I try to take the approach that I cannot conceivably imagine anything that would stop a large vehicle from coming in. True with the same logic what would stop a vehicle from barraging and staying out?

So long as it came in to be attacked back I dont particularly have a problem but that is just my RAI.

By RAW and RAI the best both sides have is a quote, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Ultimately what is the worst that happens with a tank coming in? Losing that leadership is going to be unlikely at best. The vehicle is going to be placed in a compromising position or hell it might even be death or gloried.

Chalk this one up to GW's gakky ingenuity and leave it to people who are playing the game arriving to this predicament.

The situation in which the topic requires is an extreamely rare one.

The situation requires that the enemy covered the entire edge of your own side, yeah? I'd imagine to get there, you'd have to kill most if not all of your units.

When all your units die, don't you lose? With units off the table but on their way not counting as alive til arriving? In that case, the situation would be impossible.

But if some of your units were still alive, focusing your strength on your opponent would probibly remove it quickly. Giving enough room for you to put your units there.

So, I'm concluding that you'd have to suck consideribly for this to work or be playing against someone who you shouldn't be playing against.

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:When all your units die, don't you lose? With units off the table but on their way not counting as alive til arriving? In that case, the situation would be impossible.

Thats not really how it works. For example, if this was true then leaving all your units in reserve or using all Drop pods would not work as you would instantly lose the game before your first turn.

For all these people attempting to say that if the model is partly (0.000001") on the table, it is in play.... DO you ever attempt to deploy/move your models like that? If someone lined their squad so the very tips of their bases were on the table, would that be a legal move to you?

The answer (for me) is a resounding NO. I would wager that the vast majority of all other players don't attempt something like that.

While there are a certain few extra-large models that exceptions need to be made for when moving on from reserves, you are not allowed to be off the table.
The best ruling against this is for fleeing units - if any part of a model/unit is off the table, then they are destoyed.

On the other hand, as I said before, I don't believe blocking off an entire table edge doesn't have any RAW consequence (only inference from other, unrelated special deployment rules) and someone who tries to pull this is... ruining the game for both of you, to say the least.

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:The situation in which the topic requires is an extreamely rare one.

The situation requires that the enemy covered the entire edge of your own side, yeah? I'd imagine to get there, you'd have to kill most if not all of your units.

When all your units die, don't you lose? With units off the table but on their way not counting as alive til arriving? In that case, the situation would be impossible.

But if some of your units were still alive, focusing your strength on your opponent would probibly remove it quickly. Giving enough room for you to put your units there.

So, I'm concluding that you'd have to suck consideribly for this to work or be playing against someone who you shouldn't be playing against.

its not that hard with turbo boosting bikes and and or lots of scouting units.
it all hinges on your opponent keeping most of or all of his forces in reserve to be blocked.

@Dashofpepper and Trasvi: So, you say moving a Baneblade/Monolith in from reserve and not being able to get 100% of the model on the table is different from getting only 0,1% of a model onto the table. Alright. Trasvi said there needs to be an exception for large models. Alright.

So, don't get me wrong: From a RAI point of view and for the sake of a nice game, I would totally agree with you! But especially Dashofpepper, you were arguing pure RAW the whole thread and now, when this question comes up, this situation is all of a sudden totally different? You offer no rules statement or even real argument for this. You just say "Well, 90% of a model is different from 1%", if I understood you right. Again, from a RAI point of view I totally agree on that, but if you want to argue RAW, and that's what you're doing, you need to show me and the guys a rule where it says "90% are ok, 1% is not."
If you can't come up with a rule like that, there is no RAW difference between these two cases and you'd either have to disallow big units to come in from reserve...OR allow tank shocking when a vehicle can fit 1% on the table with being 1" away from enemy troops.

Again, I'd agree that if NO part of the model, not even the smallest, can get onto the table without fulfilling the 1" criterium, that tank shocking would most probably be not in order.

(So in the end, we're talking about a situation as probable as...as...an asteroid hitting the 18th hole in a golf tournament at the exact same time as the player's golf ball (which is, of course, instantly evaporated...would it score, though? ))

One last shout into oblivion (becuase I think I, and DashofPepper, are right and can't be bothered to continue providing logical arguments. Or read everything...).

If you let you're opponent claim your deployment without a fight and are a weezly enough playa to hold your whole army in reserve for them to come on, and THEN your opponent claims that you're tabled...THEN YOU FETHING WELL DESERVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

* yawn *

Emperors Faithful wrote:One last shout into oblivion (becuase I think I, and DashofPepper, are right and can't be bothered to continue providing logical arguments. Or read everything...).

If you let you're opponent claim your deployment without a fight and are a weezly enough playa to hold your whole army in reserve for them to come on, and THEN your opponent claims that you're tabled...THEN YOU FETHING WELL DESERVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, for trying to prevent, say, a Tau army wiping you out in the first shooting phase, you put your stuff in Reserve...trying to use, those Tictacs you read so much about on the interwebs (only 2 calories!) but then their Kroot Infiltrate along your edge to counter your tictacs with some tictacs of their own (still only 2 calories!)

You are then, defo not a playa bro. Word.

coredump wrote:Dash, I can play those games too.

If you sit on the desk, are you on the desk? your legs aren't.
If you are not allowed to stand on the carpet, and only put one foot on it, will you still get in trouble?
If the teacher says to put the book on the table, and the corner of the book is hanging over, is it still on the table?

Partially on *is* a on. It is even in the name. Partially *ON*.
That is why we have words to distinguish the difference, like fully on, completely on, all the way on. Otherwise they would not be needed.


But it is your assertion, that 'partially on' is *not* the same as 'on'.

So lets look elsewhere in the rules.
You can't be 'on' impassable terrain. So, by your assertions, I can be partially on, since that is not 'On'.
You can't be 'on' an enemy model. So, by your assertions, I can be partially on another model.
How about cover? When you are partially in area terrain, the rules clarify that as being the same as being in area terrain.
Difficult terrain: If you are only partly on, your assertion means no roll is needed, since I am not really 'on' the terrain.


And I noticed the reverse has been totally ignored.
If it is as you claim, and that sayin 'on' really means 'fully on'; then what about the reverse?
When the rules say 'off', do they really mean 'fully off'.
The rules say you can't go off the board. So by your assertion, you can go partially off the board, since partially off is not the same as 'off'.


The point of this, is that being 'partially on/off' still meets the criteria of being 'on/off'.



So, once you are partially on the table, you are on the table. Thus you can now tank shock.

.

DING DING DING DING, we have a winner.

A model that is partially on the table is still ON the table and as such fulfills all the required requisites to be able to tank shock.

Witzkatz wrote:

So, don't get me wrong: From a RAI point of view and for the sake of a nice game, I would totally agree with you! But especially Dashofpepper, you were arguing pure RAW the whole thread and now, when this question comes up, this situation is all of a sudden totally different? You offer no rules statement or even real argument for this. You just say "Well, 90% of a model is different from 1%", if I understood you right.

I'll say this again; compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. There *IS* a difference between the monolith/baneblade issue and trying to tank shock onto the table.

Monolith/Baneblade: These two models can't fit onto the table even if they move 6" onto the table because of their size. They can get mostly on the table, and hanging off the edge is simply the result of the way GW designed the models.

Tank shocking from off the table: That is NOT an issue with the model being too big to fit onto the table. Its an issue with people attempting to abuse the rules to redefine "on the table" to mean "touching the table" Its not the same issue. The *REASON* I call you a troll is because you're not bringing anything contextually relevant to the discussion, you're not even arguing something in the same realm.

You're literally saying, "These watermelons are much bigger than those oranges. Since those oranges are not as big as these watermelons, I should get a discount on the oranges for being undersized."

You can't compare the two. One is a GW model design, and the other is an attempted exploit of the rules.

Dashofpepper wrote:You can't compare the two. One is a GW model design, and the other is an attempted exploit of the rules.

Wait, which is which?

Dashofpepper wrote:
Monolith/Baneblade: These two models can't fit onto the table even if they move 6" onto the table because of their size. They can get mostly on the table, and hanging off the edge is simply the result of the way GW designed the models.

I think the problem people have with your argument is that you were arguing RAW the entire time, but now that the RAW states "you must be on the table" (and technically being 0.001 inches on the table IS on the table), youre going with RaI.

So what if there was a model in the way and the monolith had to stop 2, 3, 4, or 5 inches from the table edge? Which of these are acceptable?

Ok, so a lot of the argument here now is based on not being able to tank shock if you're not "on the table."

I would say that 99% of the time, Dash's argument that a unit that is off the table cannot effect things which are on the table is true. However, this is not an explicit rule in the rulebook.

However, the "arriving from reserves" section details how and when these "off the table" models are interacting with the table. They say that you move as though you were parked at the edge of the table the turn before.

Therefor, the rules tell you that your units which are arriving can effect units which are on the table.

The argument that a unit can move .0001" on to the table, then declare the tank shock is flawed, because you cannot move a unit then declare a tank shock. You must declare the tank shock at the beginning of the units move.

Autarchs modify the reserve roll when off the table. That is most definitely affecting the game....

The argument isn't "move then declare" it is "declare tank shock move, stop when in base contact (which you CAN be on the table, round bases make it impossible to fully cover an edge) as required to do so, resolve rest of tank shock"

Dash was wrongly stating

a) that the unit cannot stop in front of the unit as there is no room
b) that a unit is not on the table when the model is less than fully on

As the entire reason why TS was failing. As these are not actual rules but made up his argument falls apart.

"On the table" is not qualified therefore being ON any amount satisfies the rules. This is the point when it got difficult for Dash so "RAI" came out, weakening the argument somewhat.

But Dash still calls others trolls, amusingly.

Another good example of how a unit that is in reserves may affect the table, Nosferatu.

Dash you need to make up your mind. Are you going with the RAW or RAI?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Dash you need to make up your mind. Are you going with the RAW or RAI?

I think several posters don't even think that Dash's opinion is based on a correct interpretation of RAW.

Thanks for your answer, Dashofpepper. I see your point and if a situation like this would ever occur in a game I play (and I guess I would be the tank guy not the block guy most probably), I guess I'd suggest to roll a 4+ and see what happens, because you have some arguments, the other side has some arguments and as far as I see it the rules are simply not detailed and/or clear enough. However, you have to admit that your answer on the monolith/BB question is a little bit RAI tainted.

As far as RAI goes, a little thought about something mentioned earlier in this thread, where someone said that there is no logical way a fragile line of infantry could stop a tank from rolling into a section of a battlefield; in 40k, many rules are rather symbolical (offensive grenades have a rather symbolical than direct impact, for example). One could RAI-wise argue that a general who managed to deploy a solid line of infantry across an edge of the battlefield was able to disrupt the enemies reinforcements in some kind of off-board battle/mission. There are units that do this (Master of the Fleet) and there are special occasions where this is a possibility (grave deep-strike mishap). I could live with that explanation on why tank-shocking does not work. Although, I see the RAW rather in favour of tank-shocking.

I feel like switzerland.

During my movement phase Im going to move my guys halfway off the table is that legal? If it is than you can tank shock, if its not legal then you cannot tank shock since youre off the table at the time of impact. Where is Gwar when you need him?

Boss_SneakyDakka wrote:During my movement phase Im going to move my guys halfway off the table is that legal? If it is than you can tank shock, if its not legal then you cannot tank shock since youre off the table at the time of impact. Where is Gwar when you need him?

There is a specific rule saying you cannot move of the table edge, there is no specific rule saying you must move entirely on the table.

However, I think there is a strong case for the idea that there is no requirement to actually be on the table to tank shock.

While it has been stated many times in this thread that models off the table cannot effect models on the table, however this is not a rule, either explicitly, or by precedent. In fact, the precedent seems to point to models off the table being able to effect models on the table, when given permission to by the rules.

The rules say that a unit moving on the table from reserves move "just as if they had been placed at the table edge the turn before and moved normally." To me this means that the move onto the table is a "normal move" and so a tank shock move may replace that normal move.

Most chapter tactics do not require the models on the table. In fact, they would act very strangely if they did.

Actually, most (all I have found so far) of the models that require being on the table to have effect actually state as much.

The rules seem to allow tank shock from off table.

Not that it helps my Tyranids - although I would very much love to walk spore mines onto the table and then detonate them into such a line.

Boss_SneakyDakka wrote:During my movement phase Im going to move my guys halfway off the table is that legal? If it is than you can tank shock, if its not legal then you cannot tank shock since youre off the table at the time of impact. Where is Gwar when you need him?

Please read the thread before posting - that was covered, explaiined and refuted much earlier.

Also you may not be off the table at the time of impact. If 0.1mm of you is on the table (such as the corner of a tank) then you are on the table. If you don't think that this can be done then please explain how a line of circular bases can completely cover a single straight line (board edge) - I mean you can't actually do so, but if you want to try nooone will stop you.

This whole thing has been over analyzed to death. Dash basically wants a way to table his opponent without rolling a single dice. Is that how the game should be played? If you have to think about it that is just really very sad.

I'm glad I left this thread alone now...

I think a comprimise is in order.

I say, only if you have no units on the board, then yeah fine, because not doing so inncurrs a stale mat unless the opponent moves significantly out of the way.

However, if this situation occurs, I hearby give you permission to pick up as many of their figures and throw them at them, giving yourself enough space to place you units.

Just don't come looking for me later.

Im not arguing for the sake of arguing, or a means to table my opponent. As a mech ork player, this is an important issue. The rules dont favor either argument strongly enough. So in short this is my final analysis:

Tank shocking should be allowed as a way of moving onto the table. In the spirit of the game. I was presenting tank shocking from the table as a no-no to hopefully provide a deeper discussion in the hopes of finding an answer. Unfortunatetly GW has left us with no clear answer. Its up to as player to be civil and have fun. So Im for Tank Shocking onto the table, I just feel that the rules dont support it clearly enough.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Autarchs modify the reserve roll when off the table. That is most definitely affecting the game....

Autarchs modify the reserve rolls....so do lictors. They affect the game by simply being in your army list, and I encourage you to read my apples and watermelons analogy above, since it directly applies to the horrible example you're trying to give to justify breaking the rules to cheat.

Autarchs are NOT allowed to sit off the edge of the table and snipe at units on the table. You treat models off the table in reserve as sitting on the edge for the purpose of determining how to move them on, as explained in the rules.

Simply ridiculous. If you can treat a tank off the table as "in play" and tank shock it onto the table, then there's also no rule holding you back from leaving it there, and shooting it as well. Nor is there any rule keeping models on the table from assaulting your imaginary unit off the table. In fact....here's a great compromise (I'm serious)

If you can tank shock onto the table because your tank is treated as being at the edge of the table, then to make it fair....if you keep your whole army in reserve, and I can get to your table edge on turn 2 before you roll to come out of reserves, then I should be able to assault your army sitting on the board edge. I move to the edge of the table, and you're treated as sitting at the edge of the table. That puts us in base to base contact, and I can shoot you, then assault you while you sit in reserves off the table.

You guys ok with that? While you're attempting to cheat, we might as well go at it full blown.

Witzkatz wrote:@Dashofpepper and Trasvi: So, you say moving a Baneblade/Monolith in from reserve and not being able to get 100% of the model on the table is different from getting only 0,1% of a model onto the table. Alright. Trasvi said there needs to be an exception for large models. Alright.

So, don't get me wrong: From a RAI point of view and for the sake of a nice game, I would totally agree with you! But especially Dashofpepper, you were arguing pure RAW the whole thread and now, when this question comes up, this situation is all of a sudden totally different? You offer no rules statement or even real argument for this. You just say "Well, 90% of a model is different from 1%", if I understood you right. Again, from a RAI point of view I totally agree on that, but if you want to argue RAW, and that's what you're doing, you need to show me and the guys a rule where it says "90% are ok, 1% is not."
If you can't come up with a rule like that, there is no RAW difference between these two cases and you'd either have to disallow big units to come in from reserve...OR allow tank shocking when a vehicle can fit 1% on the table with being 1" away from enemy troops.

Again, I'd agree that if NO part of the model, not even the smallest, can get onto the table without fulfilling the 1" criterium, that tank shocking would most probably be not in order.

(So in the end, we're talking about a situation as probable as...as...an asteroid hitting the 18th hole in a golf tournament at the exact same time as the player's golf ball (which is, of course, instantly evaporated...would it score, though? ))

I think there needs to be a friendly exception for large models such as the Baneblade or Monolith, because their inability to come in from reserves is purely due to the model design and rules design teams not communicating (see Valkyrie). There is not a rule saying this, and indeed RAW you probably can't bring your baneblade on.
I still have never seen any people attempting to get more board space by leaving some parts of their models off the board. Everyone knows the board is floating in the warp surrounded by a wall of fire. I believe the rules for fleeing models are perhaps the best example of that in the rules.

If this becomes a RAI argument ... it wasn't intended for people to block off an entire table edge .

Dashofpepper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Autarchs modify the reserve roll when off the table. That is most definitely affecting the game....

Autarchs modify the reserve rolls....so do lictors. They affect the game by simply being in your army list, and I encourage you to read my apples and watermelons analogy above, since it directly applies to the horrible example you're trying to give to justify breaking the rules to cheat.

Autarchs are NOT allowed to sit off the edge of the table and snipe at units on the table. You treat models off the table in reserve as sitting on the edge for the purpose of determining how to move them on, as explained in the rules.

Simply ridiculous. If you can treat a tank off the table as "in play" and tank shock it onto the table, then there's also no rule holding you back from leaving it there, and shooting it as well. Nor is there any rule keeping models on the table from assaulting your imaginary unit off the table. In fact....here's a great compromise (I'm serious)

If you can tank shock onto the table because your tank is treated as being at the edge of the table, then to make it fair....if you keep your whole army in reserve, and I can get to your table edge on turn 2 before you roll to come out of reserves, then I should be able to assault your army sitting on the board edge. I move to the edge of the table, and you're treated as sitting at the edge of the table. That puts us in base to base contact, and I can shoot you, then assault you while you sit in reserves off the table.

You guys ok with that? While you're attempting to cheat, we might as well go at it full blown.

Except for the fact that a unit must be able to draw LOS to be able to shoot something, and the rule for arriving from reserves simply tells you to treat the unit as though it were at the table edge for movement purposes. Nobody is saying that you can always effect things from off the table all the time, but just that this is one of the instances where you are told how to effect things, for the purpose of moving on the table only.

+1 from above.

Dash: I notice you still ignore that you can indeed be ON the table at the time of the tank shock. Afraid of RAW now that it undermines your argument?

Dash will not be replying for a few days. Lets ixnay on calling people who disagree with your cheaters.

Actually, where is Gwar! ?
Not like him not to get involved in ANY 5-page thread, nevermind a rules one...

Anyway, you can't trace LOS from off-table, so you can't shoot.

Makes it a pointless analogy.

Don't say the daemon's name.

I think Gwar was suspended as well...? Remember reading him say something about that.

Anyways, yes, you can tank shock onto the table, for all the reasons already given. There's a whole slew of guys that don't have to be on the table to create in-game effect. If moving onto the table is indeed movement, as covered by the rulebook, then tank shock is allowed.

Clams has it right.

Moving on to the table from reserves is movement, and tank shock is allowed.

However, it is risky to attempt with transports, because if a unit passes it's Morale check, DoGs, and destroys your transport at the table edge w/o any room to disembark, you lose the guys inside.

Yes its risky but it is a lot better than the alternative.

First post here (signed up to contribute), and I'd have to say that, Rules as WRITTEN, you CAN NOT Tank Shock. I believe Dash is correct, but his arguments have sort of dissolved.

Going entirely off RAW, You CAN NOT bring in a Monolith from reserves, assuming it's bigger than 6". The same goes for the Baneblade if it's width is 6"+. The regular definitions for on/off the table here are irrelevant. GW has already set the precedent with 'on the table'. If even 1% of a model's base is off the board edge during a fallback move, they retreat off the board. If even 1% of a model's base is off the board edge during a deepstrike, you roll for a mishap. So why is it that this stops applying for having models on/off the board? If you have even 1% of your vehicle off the board, then it's off the board. The same applies if you have 99% off the board. So, RAW, your vehicle ends up 99% off the board and thus is off the board, by 5th edition's rules.

This was not how rules were intended, but that is irrelevant here. Rules as written, GW counts 1% off the board as off the board (and you have proof via other rules saying so), and in this situation your vehicle will end up more than 1% off the board.

As far as the whole reserves/dow/declaring tank shock go, that is also irrelevant. Maybe you can, maybe you can't. But even if you can declare the tank shock, you can't fulfill it because your models ends up, by GW's written definition, off the board.

If you're wondering how this could ever happen, I can think of a way to do this easily. You have to go first. Take 2x warbosses (on bikes if you want), 2x10 nob bikers. Standard build, right? Give them various stuff for wound allocation. Now you can deploy your 1x HQ and 2x Troops regularly. Deploy all of the bikes 2" apart from each other and at the very edge of your deployment zone. Move flat-out. You can get to the board edge with that. Turn your models sideways. Doing this, you can cover a standard board lenght with about 17 sideways bike models. You'll have three-four extra models, that can take wounds before your blocking models do. When your opponent's turn rolls around, he won't be able to move anything in, short of jump/skimmers. He can try to work on killing your nobz to bring in his stuff later, but with wound allocation and 10x nobs per unit, plus a potential Warboss to soak wounds, he'll have to put in a lot of effort to manage it. You'll even get a 3+ cover save for the first turn from your flatout move. Use the rest of your points for anti-infantry and monstrous creature, to deal with HQ/troops. This list becomes more effective as you get into 2000-2500 points, where you can afford to purchase the bikers and still have enough left to purchase enough to kill his hq/troops without moving the bikers from the edge.

In reality this list will only work if you know what your opponent is fielding AND you get first turn AND you're playing Dawn of War. It requires you to highly specialize, and if they have any skimmers, jump troops, outflankers, or deepstrikers, it seriously hurts your efforts.

As for the close-minded people talking about WAAC etc etc, I'm going to be polite. Tournaments exist. I'd never pull this in a friendly game, but provided it were actually viable, I'd easily do it in in a 2000-2500 points tournament.

Except that page 94 allows movement onto the edge to occur "as normal", and tank shocking is an accepted subset of normal movement rules.

Gestapo Anon wrote:
Going entirely off RAW, You CAN NOT bring in a Monolith from reserves, assuming it's bigger than 6". The same goes for the Baneblade if it's width is 6"+. The regular definitions for on/off the table here are irrelevant. GW has already set the precedent with 'on the table'. If even 1% of a model's base is off the board edge during a fallback move, they retreat off the board. If even 1% of a model's base is off the board edge during a deepstrike, you roll for a mishap. So why is it that this stops applying for having models on/off the board? If you have even 1% of your vehicle off the board, then it's off the board. The same applies if you have 99% off the board. So, RAW, your vehicle ends up 99% off the board and thus is off the board, by 5th edition's rules.

Except that those rules are specific for fallback moves and for deepstrike and so have absolutely no relevance to how the models move in to the table from reserves.

But it also says that tank shock is a special attack. You can't attack the enemy if you are even SLIGHTLY off the board. Also, if enemies aren't allowed within one inch of enemy models, does this rule suddenly stop if coming from reserve? I would think not.
I agree with Gestapo anon here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Phantom Viper: How can you say they are not relevant? If the model is even TOUCHING the board, in ANY case, it is considered off. These are just some examples from the BRB to support this.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But it also says that tank shock is a special attack. You can't attack the enemy if you are even SLIGHTLY off the board.

Please show me where it says this in the BRB?

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Also, if enemies aren't allowed within one inch of enemy models, does this rule suddenly stop if coming from reserve? I would think not.
I agree with Gestapo anon here.

The declaration of Tank Shock allows you to approach to BtB.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
@Phantom Viper: How can you say they are not relevant? If the model is even TOUCHING the board, in ANY case, it is considered off. These are just some examples from the BRB to support this.

Again, show me the rule in the rulebook that supports the claims you make on the text I bolded?

The only instances that I can find are for the specific cases of falling back and deep striking.

1) Pg 68 of the BRB. Read it, learn it, love it.
2) That was not related to vehcihles, I was wondering if people believed infantry could come on the same way.
3) Pg 95 for Deep strike and Pg 45 for falling back. It is only reasonable to assume that such a rule applies universally. (otherwise that would mean you could move your guys off the board, which is just ridiculous)

BIG ARGUMENT: Remember, rules are PERMISSIVE. Just becuase it doesn't say you CAN'T doesn't mean you CAN. It must expressly say so.

Emperors Faithful wrote:1) Pg 68 of the BRB. Read it, learn it, love it.

Pg 68 does not say anywhere that you can't perform a Tank Shock if you are only partially on the table.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
2) That was not related to vehcihles, I was wondering if people believed infantry could come on the same way.

No, infantry cannot do that because you come into the table from reserves during the movement fase and it specifically says that during your movement fase you can't approach within 1" of an enemy unit (unless you declare a tank shock).

Emperors Faithful wrote:
3) Pg 95 for Deep strike and Pg 45 for falling back. It is only reasonable to assume that such a rule applies universally. (otherwise that would mean you could move your guys off the board, which is just ridiculous)

There is no such thing as "reasonable" in the rules written by GW!

Rules do not apply universally unless they say that they do. You have several instances of rules in the BRB that would contradict each other if that was the case.

Also, why wouldn't you be able to move your guys off the board during your movement phase?! Of course, they wouldn't be able to get back so they would count as destroyed so I can't see any advantage of actually doing it...

Emperors Faithful wrote:
BIG ARGUMENT: Remember, rules are PERMISSIVE. Just becuase it doesn't say you CAN'T doesn't mean you CAN. It must expressly say so.

Yes, you are absolutely right. Of course the rules in this case expressely say that you can so we are all in agreement in this point.

Where does it say you can tank shock from reserve? Please, I'm dying to hear this...(No, seriously this thread has been going on for nearly 5...6 pages now)

Emperors Faithful wrote:Where does it say you can tank shock from reserve? Please, I'm dying to hear this...(No, seriously this thread has been going on for nearly 5...6 pages now)

For the last time then:

Page 94 on the "Arriving for reserve" section says to treat the unit as "if they where positioned just off the board edge and moved as normal" (actual quote from the BRB).

Page 68 on "Tank Shock" says that when moving a tank you can declare a tank shock instead of moving normally. All the conditions for performing a tank shock are thus fullfilled (sp?).

Nowhere on the BRB does it say that a unit partially on the table does not count as beeing on the table EXCEPT in the specific instances of Deep Striking and Falling Back.

Unless you can show me a rule that disproves any of the premisses pointed above then you have to agree that by RAW you can Tank shock from reserves...

"Instead of moving normally"? It says that you must arrive from reserve by moving normally. Tank Shock REPLACES moving normally (Hint: The "Instead of"). RAW defeats you.

You move on "normally"

You then move by Tank shock.

Reserves does not say you can ONLY move normally, it says this is hw you move on but gives you no further restrictions.

To answer your fall-back etc fallacies: IF A implies B B cannot be said to imply A without further information. Reciprocity is NOT a part of the rules -if it were then you could not assault tanks as tanks cannot assault. As this is patently false you have a problem....

Emperors Faithful wrote:"Instead of moving normally"? It says that you must arrive from reserve by moving normally. Tank Shock REPLACES moving normally (Hint: The "Instead of"). RAW defeats you.

Except GW has ruled that turbo-boosting during a scout move is "moving normal." Surely this is applicable.

Where does it say you can tank shock from reserve? Please, I'm dying to hear this...(No, seriously this thread has been going on for nearly 5...6 pages now)

Right here, from page 2:

P.94:
When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the
table from the controlling player’s own table edge
(unless it’s deep striking or outflanking). Each model’s
move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if
they had been positioned just off the board in the
previous turn and moved as normal.

Your argument seems to be that a Tank Shock move is not normal, which is your own interpretation of the rules since GW never defines what is and is not considered "normal" movement. They make this mistake several times throughout the rulebook.

Precedent would suggest that GW's conception of "normal" is extremely broad, even so much as to include variations in the BRB explicitly marked as "special". For instance, there has historically been much debate over whether or not the Scout rule permits usage of the Turbo-Boosters special rule:

P.76
Scouts are used to reconnoitre ahead and are always in
the vanguard of the army. To represent this, after both
sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before
the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may
make a normal move.

Many argued, as you do here analogously, that the Turbo-Boosters would not be permitted during a Scout move because it is not "normal" movement as required by the rule. However, GW clarified in the BRB FAQ that Turbo-Boosters ARE allowed during this move (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_40k_Rulebook_March_2009.pdf).

While it has no direct bearing on RAW, arguing what the GW developers meant by "normal" movement doesn't either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

"Instead of moving normally"? It says that you must arrive from reserve by moving normally. Tank Shock REPLACES moving normally (Hint: The "Instead of"). RAW defeats you.

One can also argue that it is normal for a Tank to move via Tank Shock, just as it is apparently still normal for bikes to use a SPECIAL rule in place of their typical movement. Again, no definition of normal movement leaves your argument without a leg to stand on (as it does with any counter-argument).

In the end, without an official clarification you'll have to convince either opponent or TO of your position, and I think you'll find people unwilling to allow a Tank Shock from reserve in a very small minority.

d

@Emperor's Faithful: There's a reason why Dashofpepper has stopped posting in the thread. All of his assertions have been shown to be extremely shaky or wrong... and you're simply repeating them.

Emperors Faithful wrote:"Instead of moving normally"? It says that you must arrive from reserve by moving normally. Tank Shock REPLACES moving normally (Hint: The "Instead of"). RAW defeats you.

There you go again. It doesn't say anything of the kind, it says that it is considered a normal move not that you must arrive by normal move, that normal move can, like every other normal move, be replaced with a tank shock.

Stop trying to add things that are nowhere in the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

willydstyle wrote:@Emperor's Faithful: There's a reason why Dashofpepper has stopped posting in the thread. All of his assertions have been shown to be extremely shaky or wrong... and you're simply repeating them.

Actually Dashofpepper stoped posting because his posting rights were suspended by a moderator...

willydstyle wrote:@Emperor's Faithful: There's a reason why Dashofpepper has stopped posting in the thread. All of his assertions have been shown to be extremely shaky or wrong... and you're simply repeating them.

No i think has more to do with

Frazzled wrote:Dash will not be replying for a few days. Lets ixnay on calling people who disagree with your cheaters.

dated 2009/07/23 13:47:56

Haha, good point Tri... I missed that. Anyways... I still think that his assertions have mostly been debunked.

I wouldn't say debunked, I'd just say that they are nowhere near as concrete as he wanted them to be. The only rules that talk about units going off the table involve falling back and deep-striking, and so aren't applicable here. Some models literally cannot move on the table without a portion hanging off. There's no definitive argument that this can't be done, and since tankshocking this way can be carried out in accordance to the rulebook, it's allowable.

Well... considering that the "models off the table cannot effect models that are on the table" argument is not grounded in the rules, I don't know why so many have spent so much time on it.

Okay 'ere we go.

Pg.68 "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehichle is going to attempt a tank shock attack INSTEAD of moving normally."

Pg. 94 "Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the boardn the previous turn and MOVED AS NORMAL."

It is clear that you must move on the table NORMALY, and it is also clear that Tank Shocking is NOT a normal move.

Therefore, you cannot Tank Shock onto the field.

Dashofpepper wrote:You can settle this quite easily....

Call GW and ask them if deploying 6" tank model .01mm on the table with the rest of the vehicle off the table is legal. If they go for it, I'm game; short of that....sounds pretty clearly like drivel and a blatant attempt to cheat.

How about no you two faced hypocrit.

Earlier you said, and I'll quote:

"If you can show me documentation (FAQ or errata) from GW supporting that you can tank shock from reserves, so be it. A random person on the internet saying, "GW said...." is meaningless in any discussion. "


But now that someone has pointed out .01" is on the table, its ok to call GW and then come back as a random person on the internet saying "GW siad...." its ok?

Talk about talking out both sides of your mouth....

Emperors Faithful wrote:
It is clear that you must move on the table NORMALY, and it is also clear that Tank Shocking is NOT a normal move.

Therefore, you cannot Tank Shock onto the field.

Except, as you just quoted, tank shocking is done instead of normal movement. That means, anything that allows normal movement, allows tank shock.

It's really that cut and dry.

I have no idea how you keep mis-reading this.

The rules are permissive. Unless it expressly says that you can tank shock instead of moving normally YOU CAN'T.

@carmachu: phew, for a second I thought you were talking to me! (P.S. Be carefull, you might get pulled off for a while like Dash)

I agree with Emperors Faithful, Carmachu, play nice.

As for the actual topic of discussion, I don't really think this is going to resolve. Instead, either everyone'll give up on trying to convince the others, or this topic'll reach 9485903873745908390683904860935860975903750 pages of the same arguements over and over reworded differently.

GW CHANGE THE RULES!!!!

In the stirctest sense, by RAW, i am correct. However I'll be the first to admit that this is YMTC, not RAW. So mabye RAI COULD let you tank shock. But I don't think it was EVER intended for people to have thier whole army in reserve anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(For so long at least)

I propose a new Ork rule "DYNAMIC ENTRY!!!"

I thought that was tau?

now assuming you CAN tank shock otho the field AND your oponent must move models aside, but cannot then i'd assume he is and his units in the path (or under) of the tank are destroyed? or would i be mistaken?

Emperors Faithful wrote:I thought that was tau?

It's a rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thought Ork cause it being something an Ork would do. Flashy entrance, like the naruto reference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flashy entrance that involves fighting.

No, it's about this conversion about a tau battlesuit deepstiking right on top of a space marinz face. It was titled, DYNAMIC ENTRY: Who sucks in close combat now? Orks and rules were not involved.

I saw that, but the connection didn't click.

I was just thinking that making it a rule, but for something that would need it in the right condition would probibly resolve this discussion.

here's the picture for reference

Emperors Faithful wrote:Okay 'ere we go.

Pg.68 "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehichle is going to attempt a tank shock attack INSTEAD of moving normally."

Pg. 94 "Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the boardn the previous turn and MOVED AS NORMAL."

It is clear that you must move on the table NORMALY, and it is also clear that Tank Shocking is NOT a normal move.

Therefore, you cannot Tank Shock onto the field.

Take another look at Page 94. That sentence can just as easily (and just as validly) be read not as saying that the vehicle must be moved as normal, but that it is considered to have moved as normal in its previous turn while it was positioned just off the board. Because of the grammatical design of the sentence, you cannot conclude, RAW, that this sentence mandates normal movement, making whether or not Tank Shock is normal irrelevant.

So, RAW yields two equally valid interpretations.

Paintbrushturkey wrote:now assuming you CAN tank shock otho the field AND your oponent must move models aside, but cannot then i'd assume he is and his units in the path (or under) of the tank are destroyed? or would i be mistaken?

Probably not. If they have to fall back but can't they're destroyed. If they pass theird LD check, then tank shocked units move the shortest distance to get them out of the way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I don't have anything to add to this that can be put into words better than Dashofpepper already has. But I wanted to throw in my support to him and the other "No Tank Shocking from reserve" crowd.

I think it's absolutly crazy to think that one can tank shock from reserve when the tank shock rules are written the way they are. The biggest thing that kills it is the part where the tank stops before hitting the target unit and waits for them to react. The tank at that time is off the board and in my opinion should not have anything to do with the pieces on the board already.

I think t's important to remember that most of us will never see a situation come up where someone has nowhere to deploy from their table edge.

You missed the point where it is demonstrated that, at the time of the tank shock, the tank CAN be on the table. Which throws your argument out the window.

Dash - is "on the table" in any way qualified? No. Thus putting it 1mm on is fulfilling it. You really, really haven't got an argument against this, despite your attempts at deliberately twisting words.

You are the one adding and changing words, or in other words attempting to deliberately cheat. Well done.

I know this isn't covered in the BGB so from a RAW standpoint you may have a point that being 1mm on the table constitutes being in play. From a RAI standpoint I think it's clear that models partially off of the table edge are removed from play.

My first example is fleeing troops that come into contact with the table edge are removed from play.

My second example is deep striking units that are partially off of the table edge are removed from play.

I really don't see this as me missing the point. I think you've missed the point big time if you think that you can bring on a model partially onto the table from reserve.

Beyond all that the models don't technically "move" onto the table. They are to be placed at the tables edge and treated as if they had moved normally.

Well, if we want to try and divine the intentions of the developers, do you really think they intended for tanks to be destroyed by infantry blocking a board edge when under any other circumstances they could simply run right through them?

augustus5 wrote:
My first example is fleeing troops that come into contact with the table edge are removed from play.

Already covered and debunked: If A implies B you cannot say for certain that B implies A. A rule for moving off the table when you are broken clearly has no relation ot a unit moving on from reserve.

augustus5 wrote:
My second example is deep striking units that are partially off of the table edge are removed from play.

Incorrect. They are not removed, instead they mishap. 5th ed rules. They may die but it is just another mishap.

augustus5 wrote:
I really don't see this as me missing the point. I think you've missed the point big time if you think that you can bring on a model partially onto the table from reserve.

Beyond all that the models don't technically "move" onto the table. They are to be placed at the tables edge and treated as if they had moved normally.

They do indeed move onto the table - they are at the edge with no special rule for how far theve moved (so no chance of claiming cover saves etc, front edge of tank at edge of table) and you then move on. If you really think that Monoliths should be destroyed when moving on to the the table then you have a different idea of intent than me. If they really wanted you to HAVE to bring models fully on, even when they can't, they should have said something about it. IN addition the Valk battle reports have consistently had them move 6" on so they can fire weapons, and the entire model cannot be on if you do that - it's simply too big. I'm just pointing out what is legal and by the rules, but haven't said what I would do in games - I normally play that it must be supported, except in this case of someone being an arse and exploiting the rules. Although I'd never get caught out by it, it's a fairly obvious ploy to defeat....

You are either ENTIRELY on the board, are you aren't. If you're going to be TFG and say that you can move your infantry onto the book cabinet 2metre across the room than do that. All it's gonna get you is *FACEPALM!*

It is clear that models even TOUCHING the board are considered off. It makes no sense that tank pops out of FREAKING nowhere and attacks that unit in thier face. If we follow this logic then we must assume that these same models must have been able to draw LOS and even CHARGE the tank as it was "just off the table".

So we've got to page 7 what have we learnt.

Well there no rule for what happens if you block a table edge. We also all agreed that to let this happen its your own fault. Whether tanks can or cannot tank charge is a completely grey area (with only a rough out line as to what's going on). If you actually want a game, why not let them tank charge? It will be a hard battle but he may win. In a tournament ask the judges, that's what they're there for.

If you're playing a friendly game why are you blocking off the board edge? Do you not want to have a game?

Tri wrote:So we've got to page 7 what have we learnt.

Well there no rule for what happens if you block a table edge. We also all agreed that to let this happen its your own fault. Whether tanks can or cannot tank charge is a completely grey area (with only a rough out line as to what's going on). If you actually want a game, why not let them tank charge? It will be a hard battle but he may win. In a tournament ask the judges, that's what they're there for.

If you're playing a friendly game why are you blocking off the board edge? Do you not want to have a game?

QFT

I agree with Tri.

I think its time to accept stalemate, unless someone has something NEW, it's not going to resolve.

Both sides have equal arguments. No one side has anything over the other.

In friendly games, a situation just like this shouldn't occur, and if it does, I don't think an actual end of the game shall occur. If someone blocks off the other in a friendly game, then they shouldn't be playing friendly games. I don't beleive it should be the blocked players fault, as it's possible for some vehicles to ignore troops in movement and a number of them can rush to the other side.

In a competitive game, ask a judge or an equal, what they say is what'll happen, like it or not.

Emperors Faithful wrote:You are either ENTIRELY on the board, are you aren't. If you're going to be TFG and say that you can move your infantry onto the book cabinet 2metre across the room than do that. All it's gonna get you is *FACEPALM!*

It is clear that models even TOUCHING the board are considered off. It makes no sense that tank pops out of FREAKING nowhere and attacks that unit in thier face. If we follow this logic then we must assume that these same models must have been able to draw LOS and even CHARGE the tank as it was "just off the table".

Wow, getting a little worked up here.

You have added words to the rule - if the rule said "move entirely" or ANY qualifier you would be right. As it doesn't, you're wrong. If you can't accept that by the actual ruels you are wrong, then nothing anyone can post weill make a difference.

It is clear that models touching the board WHEN FALLING BACK are dead, however falling back /= moving on from reserves. IF you want to conflate the two rules, fine, but then you're "TFG" and deserve a face palm.

If you can't react calmy I;d suggest taking a deep breath. It also makes no sense that the tank just turns up out of nowhere, but you seem to think so.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Okay 'ere we go.

Pg.68 "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehichle is going to attempt a tank shock attack INSTEAD of moving normally."

Pg. 94 "Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the boardn the previous turn and MOVED AS NORMAL."

It is clear that you must move on the table NORMALY, and it is also clear that Tank Shocking is NOT a normal move.

Therefore, you cannot Tank Shock onto the field.

You "mustn't" do anything, there is nothing in the reserve rules that says that you must move into the table normally, just that the move is treated like a normal move and according to the tank shock rules then if you are going to perform a normal move (wich the entering from reserves move is treated as), then you can replace it with a tank shock!

ITT: People who want the game played a particular fashion nit-pick the other sides argument. Eventually a black hole opens up killing them all instantly. The world rejoices.


Also: Omg tank shock onto the board? such heresy!

And so I'm relevant to the topic at hand: If I'm allowed a normal move then I'm allowed a tank shock, yes? In counter to my own argument, Must there be a start point for said tank shock? if yes, must it be outside of 1" of my opponents models? If yes, does the board edge count as where my model "starts"? If the answer is 'yes' then i can't 'start' my tank shock there as my model cannot be legally placed there.

Lastly: ask your TO how it will be played in a tournament. When not playing a tournament talk to your opponent, if you cannot agree, roll a D6. This is a game of miniatures,we needn't resort to angry berating and fisticuffs.

@nosterafu1001: *chugging of pills in backround* yeah, you're right, forgot my medications. Also, when coming in from RESERVE (albiet via deepstrike) if the model is even TOUCHING the board edge they roll on the mishap and can't/won't be placed there. Surely one rule about reserves relates to others?

Also, if people start saying that thier tank can hang off the board, where will it stop? Can models move off the board and use the rulebooks and tape measures for cover?

Emperors Faithful wrote:@nosterafu1001: *chugging of pills in backround* yeah, you're right, forgot my medications. Also, when coming in from RESERVE (albiet via deepstrike) if the model is even TOUCHING the board edge they roll on the mishap and can't/won't be placed there. Surely one rule about reserves relates to others?

Not at all, as those rules apply specifically to a special means of entering the board (deep striking). As for where it will end, that's easy. It ends at the edge of the table. Aside from falling back, there are no rules to allow/govern models moving off the table, so it can't be done. What we're talking about here is where the rules specifically allow you to move on.

Re: monoliths, I was fairly sure that mine was wider than 6", but I'll have to get out the tape measure and check to be sure.

Also, if people start saying that thier tank can hang off the board, where will it stop? Can models move off the board and use the rulebooks and tape measures for cover?

The rules are explicit in that the model is to be treated as if it is off the board and moving on to it. You stop to resolve the Tank Shock attack. The situation where a model is hanging off the board will only result from a successful Death or Glory attack. The Tank Shock attack itself is not illegal as the requirement criterion of being on the table is met.

The rules do not, however, say you may move off the board, so your analogy is bunk.

Emperors Faithful - no worries, pills are goood Only the blue ones though....

Trouble is comparing deepstrike (inherently dangerous!) to moving onto the board (only dangerous if you want it to be, normally....) is a little like comparing apples to thermonuclear devices. Both have cores you don't normally touch, but one has a more lasting effect than the other!

RAW models can hang off the edge - a suggested and IMHO good hosuerule is that they should do so unsupported. The only exception I would ever do is if someone decided to block the baord off, then its strict RAW from then on- dick moves like that should not be tolerated Although if i found myself in that position I should probably concede as you'd have to be quite stupid / lacking in knowledge to fall for it!

Hows this you can have your nice model partially hanging off the board but if i bump the table it'll be your fault =D see everyone wins, you get to tank shock as long as it stays up there and doesn't move and I get to have the last laugh because it's going to fall on the floor.

So the best rebuttal you can come up with 'I'm gunna break your toys?'

*golf clap*

Well, seeing as logic won't work I'm all for it!

Somehow I think false threats will acheive much more, but nothing useful.

Joking Oblitr8r. k?

kitsunez wrote:Hows this you can have your nice model partially hanging off the board but if i bump the table it'll be your fault =D see everyone wins, you get to tank shock as long as it stays up there and doesn't move and I get to have the last laugh because it's going to fall on the floor.

When faced with actual rules you break peoples toys? You must be a great person to game with.

kitsunez wrote:Hows this you can have your nice model partially hanging off the board but if i bump the table it'll be your fault =D see everyone wins, you get to tank shock as long as it stays up there and doesn't move and I get to have the last laugh because it's going to fall on the floor.

Modquisition on.

This thread has been reported and I can see why. Putting this thread out of its misery.