This does include FW unfortunately enough for GW... ermmm GW(fw), or w/e. Ahem...

SO, I don't like them personally. I have seen more than enough bad things to turn me off from their products. Oddly enough the ability to play a game easily because of their international marketing seems to be the only thing keeping me playing. Here is the rub though, I play WH40k because a lot of other people do... GW takes this as some sort of sign that they have a corporate right to try and pillage the war-gaming community as their own. Seems like a midgetixed version of your standard energy and money/law corporation to me.

I am not going to argue about how I feel about this, and I expect people to be as honest as possible in turn. If you really want to fake your votes, I could care less, this information is made de' la' Wrex for GW to ponder.

HAVE FUN!!! HUT HUT!!!

voted like them. It's where I game most since there are no real independent places that also have table and the like, near me and I don't know enough people out of my LGS who play 40k to form a club.... actually everyone I know who plays are people I met at GW and we're all basically acquaintances.


EDIT- On pricing, old army codices, etc. I dislike them.


-Orkishly

I BROKE YER POLL! I VOTED FOR EVERYTHING!!!!


In all honesty I'm kind of disappointed with some of their practices like lack of support for older or seemingly less popular fare like Dark Eldar or the Inquisition Codices. I also don't like that they have a bajillion options described in creating your army list but trying to model the said options can be a pain if you aren't exactly skilled at conversions and such; options that don't match product can be annoying.

I think GW are like the average politician. They may make a lot of mistakes and do stupid things, but most of them are well-intentioned. I think that hate for one aspect of GW seeps over into other aspects. For example, if the prices for models were lower, I don't think people would whine and bitch about codecies as much, and if codecies were written better, then people wouldn't whine as much about the cost of the models.

The writers in particular don't mean to screw us over (except Gav Thorpe, who apparently hates CSM), but they don't seem to keep track of the current metagame and don't seem very involved with each other's work. If they worked as a group on the codecies, the metagame as a whole would be more balanced and fluff would transition over to gameplay better.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think GW are like the average politician. They may make a lot of mistakes and do stupid things, but most of them are well-intentioned. I think that hate for one aspect of GW seeps over into other aspects. For example, if the prices for models were lower, I don't think people would whine and bitch about codecies as much, and if codecies were written better, then people wouldn't whine as much about the cost of the models.

The writers in particular don't mean to screw us over (except Gav Thorpe, who apparently hates CSM), but they don't seem to keep track of the current metagame and don't seem very involved with each other's work. If they worked as a group on the codecies, the metagame as a whole would be more balanced and fluff would transition over to gameplay better.

Yes... but they do both of the bad actions. Charge and barge is the name of the day.

Its a give and take situation.

I like how much GW has grown and expanded their reach and product range, but I do not like the changes that have occured to facilitate that expansion.

In order to compete more internationally, to decrease their production costs while increasing their technical and design capabilities GW has needed to become a more cut throat (effective) collectable games company (BTW, what is their official business description ?)
This includes hiring management and marketing staff who look at the products as nothing more than.......products.

Everything in my working experience and education applauds GW for their Scorched Earth pricing and marketing strategies, but my experiences playing their games and the ways they have changed them is not so happy.

I wish they would provide more support for their discontinued (specialist games) or at least relax their IP policies so interested entrepreneurs can provide support.

ShotgunFacelift wrote:Its a give and take situation.

I like how much GW has grown and expanded their reach and product range, but I do not like the changes that have occured to facilitate that expansion.

In order to compete more internationally, to decrease their production costs while increasing their technical and design capabilities GW has needed to become a more cut throat (effective) collectable games company (BTW, what is their official business description ?)
This includes hiring management and marketing staff who look at the products as nothing more than.......products.

Everything in my working experience and education applauds GW for their Scorched Earth pricing and marketing strategies, but my experiences playing their games and the ways they have changed them is not so happy.

I wish they would provide more support for their discontinued (specialist games) or at least relax their IP policies so interested entrepreneurs can provide support.

Yes, read the orange deeply young Jedi.

I like 40k, I like cool miniatures. I don't like being gouged for them.

Yay for IP, boo for buisness management that doesnt focus on what the customers want.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think GW are like the average politician. They may make a lot of mistakes and do stupid things, but most of them are well-intentioned.

If you add healthy dose of self-preservation to that (ie. will do good for themselves before anyone else) and you've pretty much nailed what GW is.

I still don't like them. Meaning well doesn't get you off the hook when you feth up, so GW is not immune. I don't want to burn them to the ground (not even the idiots in FW who are often times worse than regular GW), and their are parts of the company I praise and will continue to praise (like US Mail Order), but yeah, I don't like them.

I totally love GW/FW/BL whatever. I think they are putting out a product and you either like it or don't, buy it or don't. I think they make *cough* interesting decisions on some game elements, but what the heck!

And yet we still continue to play their games. If you dislike the company and whine about the game, why do you still play it?

That's not an argument, it's just some food for thought.

Cheese Elemental wrote:And yet we still continue to play their games. If you dislike the company and whine about the game, why do you still play it?

That's not an argument, it's just some food for thought.

Meh...

Cheese Elemental wrote:If they worked as a group on the codecies, the metagame as a whole would be more balanced and fluff would transition over to gameplay better.

This is a very good point, I think.

I voted like. They sell a product of generally good quality in a mostly effective way. I find that, as a general rule, people complain about a thing in order to seem like they know what they are talking about. (This is not aimed at anyone posting here specifically.) And, as I've said before, the more impressionable folks out there automatically equate cynicism with wisdom. I guess I'd be happier with GW if they called me personally on the phone to ask what products I would like to buy or see supported and then gave me all of those things for free. But then all of you would probably have a thread about hating me.

Two out of my three Battlewagons are based on WWII toys that I bought at Target, and they all have deff rollas made from sprue bits and tubes from used fireworks. What do you think?

Cheese Elemental wrote:And yet we still continue to play their games. If you dislike the company and whine about the game, why do you still play it?

Heh. I don't play their game. I buy their models, and I read their rules, but I sure as hell don't play their game...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:And yet we still continue to play their games. If you dislike the company and whine about the game, why do you still play it?

Heh. I don't play their game. I buy their models, and I read their rules, but I sure as hell don't play their game...

Good point ;P


Same wit me - i only have FW models now - just to look good.

It seems to me that they are only interested in doing things that make them money over the short term instead of doing things like making better rules and making a better game.


I know they have to make money, but making a better product will help them achieve that.

Wrexasaur wrote:HAVE FUN!!! HUT HUT!!!

Bitch don't tell me what to do!

Anyway, I voted "they're okay". I like GW and all, but there's a LOT of room for improvement. Fixing Forge World's horrendous customer service and being a little more realistic with their prices would be good ways to start. Updated codices for everyone who needs them and lists like LatD, genestealer cult, etc. brought back aren't a bad idea, either.

I'm bored with them. Don't like their prices, and only really enjoy a couple of the SG's having got rather bored with their main 28mm games and aesthetic.

I liked GW back when their employees cared about their product rather than now that it is simply a faceless , increasingly dysfunctional corporation. Games Workshop, the company, took a hobby I enjoyed and turned it into something unrecongniseable. I want them to go away as they are only getting in the way of my enjoyment of the wargaming hobby now.

Eh. They're a company and the bottom line is they are out to make money. Not hard to understand. I do disagree with how they do it though...constantly rising prices on a luxury good is not a smart plan. I know my local GW takes the princely sum of about £35 a day some days...and the shops rent? £55 a day. Not including tax, wages or utility bills. I guess they make up for it on other days, but still...

The problem is they seem to be now making it very clear they care about your money a lot more than they care about you. Of course, that may well have been true for years but it's a very bad idea when your players start feeling like that. The only reason I still play is the hundreds of pounds invested into the hobby and the large part of my social life that revolves around it. Otherwise I'd likely just model and paint.

IP - I really like the universes created by GW although they have not evolved much from 2nd Ed to the present the detail has been added (changed and added again!), but has remained pretty constant, which I also think suits the background and has enabled an old scrot like myself to drift in and out of the hobby as time allows and not get left behind; as apposed to Battletech for example.

Re the current 'hot' discussion about others reproducing GW IP I’m pretty much on the side of the law here (and therefore GW I'm afraid), if you can't afford something that does not give you the right to knock it off, free markets aren’t that free, but I digress.

Cost - I understand why people see the models as expensive, personally I don’t have a problem with the cost of their product (but I my just be more fortunate in my circumstances in that respect) especially when you can get it discounted elsewhere. Ultimately the market sets the price and I don’t see a shortage of GW customers on the High Street or on these or other forums. There are still a number of people however whom continue to purchase GW but resent the company of supplying them, ironic perhaps, certainly an interesting paradox. Addiction anybody?

Quality – I don’t think you can quibble with GW on this (craters aside apparently!). Naturally they do produce some stinkers, but more fool you if you buy them!

General Business Practice - This I can understand, but off loading Dark Heresy and WFRPG I can not. Although FFG are going great guns, I like everyone else it seems never got this decision but it was just another step on a path that saw the sidelining of the Specialist Games and a general disregard of more experienced gamers –disappointing to say the least; I would really like it if GW would license out the specialist games as well although the secret issue of Space Hulk might be light at the end of the tunnel?

Some glowing praise you might be thinking but GW really do exasperate me with the whole “Hobby” thing. Annoying red shirted gimps in their stores is one thing (they know who they are, shame on you!) but the rape of White Dwarf (not literally you understand, that would be wrong) from top quality mag 20 years ago to a “hobby supplement” still really gets my goat. I didn’t mind the dropping of RPG articles and other companies products, there was still plenty of interesting stuff in there back then and even when the editor that called himself Fat Bloke for some reason (sorry I can’t remember his name) turned Whitey into a techni-coloured hippy of a Dwarf it was still worth the cost of an issue. Incidentally some of those issues are still burned into my retina, who knew red could be soooo bright! A hippy Dwarf is one thing a Dwarf in stilettos turning tricks to get you to by the latest Codex is wrong on all sorts of levels!

GW presents: Whore Dwarf - Just say no kids, don't even meet their gaze, there lies the path of damnation!

Ahem, er..... back to work, erm........... sorry.

notprop wrote:A hippy Dwarf is one thing a Dwarf in stilettos turning tricks to get you to by the latest Codex is wrong on all sorts of levels!

And it's probably why the White Dwarf got raped, as you said.

The love is gone, I still like them, but I'd rather go to FLGS these days, whom offer discounts, a friendly discussion platform and more honesty when it comes to things. I'm not talking about the blastscape.

I used to love them to death though, but the staff mostly killed that off for me. Especially when the UK staff was transferred out and more Dutch brown nosers were brought in. I remember buying over €300 worth of metal Guard for my first army and I remember Swan throwing in a few BL books and a Macharius blister for free. Or that crazy Scotsman Andrew, who forgot to ring up my mailorder and when I told him he just laughed madly and waved it off, throwing in a blister for my honesty.

As for Forge World, I love their stuff and I will continue buying from them as they've got quite a hoard of exclusives but 'em for their poor quality, customer services and everything.

I think GW needs to improve themselves. Better value for money (I'm not as nuts about this as many, but...) and better rules writing.

IMO it depends on where you are. My local GW is great, i can go sit in there while mum is shopping the sales or whatever, and chat to the guys in there for hours. Yes there products can seem slightly over priced, but that might be to me as im only 15, so money is not regulary being pumped into me from a source, and with a girlfriend that likes being taken out... well my valk still isnt finished due to the lack of paints i have ;p

meh, i voted like. I believe i like GW because of the staff down the shop, and the atmosphere. They arent money greedy foreigners, theyre simply guys who are enthusiastic about the game and love seeing theyre tanks blow the out of your army!

that maybe just be here though... ?

Jack

Went with "Like".

There would not be such a massive gaming community without GW, but I wish they would introduce a degree of consistency into their releases for at least a two year period (as opposed to a two month period).

The question asks how I feel about GW, not the minis, not the rules but the company.

I have a very dim view of them and their business practices and attitude to their customer base. So I went with burn, I am ever hopeful the company will collapse into the ocean and the copyrights be bought by a more customer focussed and complete hobby driven company.

This is where my popularity skydives :p

I actually quite like GW, but I think that could be because the local stores that I use aren't populated by donkey-caves or bumchums. I admit, sometimes the prices seem a bit WTF? but all in all I'm pretty much sound with them... Now a company I can get on my about is EA, don't even get me started :p

I consider the company more of a hindrance to enjoyable gaming, particularly over the last decade or so.

I voted OK, but I really have to say that there is a lot of bias here both ways. They continue to do stupid things like price jumps and so on, and they never release stuff when they say they will, they don't give a damn about anything any of their potenetial customers wants, but what they DO have is amazing. So it all balances. They're ok.

BrookM wrote:The love is gone, I still like them, but I'd rather go to FLGS these days, whom offer discounts, a friendly discussion platform and more honesty when it comes to things. I'm not talking about the blastscape.

I used to love them to death though, but the staff mostly killed that off for me. Especially when the UK staff was transferred out and more Dutch brown nosers were brought in. I remember buying over €300 worth of metal Guard for my first army and I remember Swan throwing in a few BL books and a Macharius blister for free. Or that crazy Scotsman Andrew, who forgot to ring up my mailorder and when I told him he just laughed madly and waved it off, throwing in a blister for my honesty.

As for Forge World, I love their stuff and I will continue buying from them as they've got quite a hoard of exclusives but 'em for their poor quality, customer services and everything.

Well everyones two favoutire people at my LGS got fired They fired him because he wasn't making enough sales but we all know the true reason is because he didn't advertise for the academy as much as they wanted him to 0_o Lastely they put all their sales tactics into academy and AOBR....



EDIT- So basically they care more for new gamers spending big $$ than old gamers spending an average amount of 50's and 100's....




-Orkishly

I miss the articles they used to have online where they didn't try and sell you something every 20 seconds, but where they showed you how to make terrain and bunkers etc McGyver style from half a tea bag and a dead goat.

Now all they seem to have is product placement. I was just looking for articles on planet strike, and how best to play attack/defence roles, and all they have are 2 short pages with a few pictures of (essentially) a model from each army with "these units are good for attack, these units are good for defence - here is a link to the shop, now go buy them... oh, by the way, they are all the really expensive and new models in the army".

The only other articles they seem to have are "how to build the really expensive kit you just bought from us".

*shakes fist*

I like GW, but I don't love them. I love my Wife and Indian food so that is that.

I think that they have made some poor decisions (mainly how they have handled Specialist Games and the WD), but as a company they have greatly improved the quality of their products and have worked towards setting the bar higher. I've always felt that as a hobby company they have worked towards getting better and sometimes that means taking risks. I've enjoyed how they have worked out of weird phases (like the "red" phase and the green base phase). They are working towards creating a more "realistic/grimdark" product that I like.

Any beefs I have with the company are generally forgotten when I remember that they are still creating something for my hobby. My hobby should be at the end of my priority list (as well as the bottom of my worry list).

GW frustrates me to no end.

On one hand, they have a great IP, but these days they spend more effort protecting it rather than utilizing it.

They charge premium prices for mediocre product. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that GW produces premium product... their plastic kits are terribly engineered (and relatively primitive from a model kit standpoint), from non-inclusion of pegs and sockets to aid construction, to poorly realized instructions. The modern metal range relies too much on adding bling to add character.

The ruleset while streamlined, suffers from a lack of depth to gameplay.

GW has been alienating its veteran base for years - and is now trying to be everything to all its customers and ends up coming short in all aspects. The times have changed, but GW stays the same.

In my ideal world, V6 will include:

1. Starter Kit with "core rules" - aimed at kids and high speed games.
1a. Core Rulebook with Black Tome (a-la Ravening Hordes): (Core rules, movement, shooting, assault, terrain, basic vehicle rules and KP missions. Reformats basic stats for all units to keep in line with the new core rules)
1b. Advanced Rulebook with additional rules and missions - aimed at veterans and tactical games. To include objective missions, optional deployment rules, varying movement rules, advanced vehicle rules etc. Optional large scale rules, skirmish scale rules and campaign rules etc.)
1c. Codecies to include fluff, relisting of the basic stats, inclusion of additional stats to play with the Advanced Rules. Hobby sections of codecies need to be improved to contain army showcases and advanced modelling techniques. Playtest PDFs should be made available on the website for armies without a codex to provide base statistics (such as movement rates or weapon statistics) needed in addition to core stats from the Black Tome.

2. Consolidation of the entire line. All add on squad boxes should be axed and reformatted into conversion packs and the basic kits. Conversion kits should not be limited to plastic and should also include metal, resin parts and possibly photo-etch. Universal things to add would be head packs, and wepaon packs. If you are going to charge a premium price, the products had better be premium.

This will never happen of course...

It always hurts more when somebody screws up something you love.

I dislike their inconsistency with codex upgrades, some models, their pricing, some codex discrepancies, and their immense greed. So I said BURN GW. I was only being slightly facetious, too. GW is the reason I tend to buy models secondhand whenever I can, and not from GW itself.

Rico.

SilverMK2 wrote:I miss the articles they used to have online where they didn't try and sell you something every 20 seconds, but where they showed you how to make terrain and bunkers etc McGyver style from half a tea bag and a dead goat.

WIN!
It is so unfortunate, they really can't meet anyone's wishes. The day they start charging membership to their website is the day I quit 40k. I have a sad feeling it is coming up soon, by 2010 at the latest. Not that their site has anything worthwwhile on it anyway.

I voted OK. While I despise them for what they have done to 40k, they still put out a decent product more often than not.

Ask me this 10 years ago, and I would have been singing their praises.

Nightwatch wrote:Not that their site has anything worthwwhile on it anyway.

QFT.

I miss the old site that had all the modelling tips and such, like greenstuff tutorials and a host of other useful things. GW is sort of like Jagex - sorry for the RuneScape reference - in that they took something quite successful (and dare I say profitable) and took it in a downward spiral. I watched Jagex disregard the veterans who have been with the game for quite some time and focus on making the newer players happy - thus shafting said veterans (who, it must be said, paid money for an extended period of time). That's why I quit RS (thank goodness) and I moved on to games that were better in all respects.

GW is the same, perhaps on a smaller scale, or perhaps GW is earlier in the process of screwing over their product line. Except I don't know if I will move on to another tabletop game if GW crosses the proverbial line. I like the models, and keep buying the models (albeit from different sources), yet have feelings of bitterness toward GW. Weird, eh?

The whole situation is disappointing and degrading, to say the least.

Rico.

Remember Black Goblin?

No, I don't. Should I? I'm probably too young. My apologies. Backing out of the thread, as of now.

It was a site Feature on GW's website for a year or two. Basically it was a weekly web-zine that had army features, conversion tips, etc... You could also call it a mini-WD. I read it the first several months that they published it and I was pretty happy with it. I think they stopped doing it when they reorganized the website.

I mention it because I felt it was the last time between the WD and GWs site that they made a motion to give it back to the players and give them some "outside the box" gaming ideas.

But then again maybe they saw that it was an uphill battle and gave up. I can get more info in one hour on Dakka than I could from a monthly WD purchase, or waiting for extra info in the Black Goblin.

Love/hate for me.

Love the fact that I can get a pick up game nearly any store that I drop into with a GW army. Love the corporate support for the gaming scene.

Hate the business practices, particularly the wallet rape "because we can" mentality. It can't last forever and eventually they will price themselves right out of business.

Here's what I think:

Games Workshop is a business that provides me entertainment. Entertainment I still enjoy, even after 13+ years. I used to work for GW for 3 years, and left in good faith. GW provided me the best job I've had, and I was nothing but respected, and valued as the part-time redshirt I was. If it weren't for GW I'd have half the friends I do today. They're also a business that doesn't eat children, beat their employees, or steal from their customers. We all choose to play their games, and spend the money we do on them as well. The notion that they're cheating us out of money is crazy. I don't know about you, but GW never came to my door and shook me down for cash, and only left me an Ironclad dreadnought, I exchanged my cash for it because I derive an equal amount of satisfaction for what I pay.

That being said, they're not above criticism, and no one (not the guv'ment, not your parents, not your dog) are above reasonable criticism. I just find that most of what people have to say ill about Games Workshop is whining and whinging that I really can't be bothered with, and am just glad GW doesn't survive on lack of crying.

Hi all.
GW PLC sell product for as much as they can get away with, by primarily targeting customers that are vunerable to low level marketing.
'Selling toy soldiers to kiddies.'

It is possible to get alternative products to GWs , at a fraction of the cost or with much better quality as reguards to rules and gameplay.
Rather than try to compete by offering better value for money, GW just get as much money as they can before thier target demoghrapic wise up and leave.

Not a buisness model that promotes long term growth or good will.

TTFN
Lanrak.

I change mine to hatred right now. I just went and bought black reach again, and it cost me 101$. I think it only cost me 85 last time, and it took like half an hour for them to accept my debit card. Grrr... for more info on what I'm gonna do with black reach... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249119.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yes, it took me FOREVER to get the damn thing, plus the redshirt ignored me for like 20 minutes as I'm trying to let him know I'd like to buy something (and contribute to HIS comission for the day) and then he tries to sell me plastic glue too.
GAHH!

Like em, love all the new kits this year, generally happy with 5th ed codices.

Not love because there are always glaring issues,

but nobody's perfect right?

Nightwatch wrote:I change mine to hatred right now. I just went and bought black reach again, and it cost me 101$. I think it only cost me 85 last time, and it took like half an hour for them to accept my debit card. Grrr... for more info on what I'm gonna do with black reach... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249119.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yes, it took me FOREVER to get the damn thing, plus the redshirt ignored me for like 20 minutes as I'm trying to let him know I'd like to buy something (and contribute to HIS comission for the day) and then he tries to sell me plastic glue too.
GAHH!

GW staff don't work on commission...

Don't like 'em. Why?... Rip off pricing for medium quality items. Sure this has all been said above but I'd like to add my two-penneth worth!

Years ago WD used to have interesting articles... no wait that's been said as well. Just put me down as "miffed with the price"

yeah, they are OK. the washes are nice.

I once worked for a small manufacturing company in southern California that made candles. They had a nice website, a couple boutiques in the LA area, and the company was owned by a former model and TV actress. They employed 75-100 people, and as far as I could tell, the company did pretty well. One day, the owner rolls up in a brand new Mercedes Benz. I figure, "hey, good for her." A week later, she calls a meeting and announes that she's sold her little company to a much larger company: one that has dozens of mall stores and all sorts of other foo-foo products that they manufacture and sell. She goes on to tell us how this will be great for us. We'll have plenty of opportunities for promotion in the new, larger company, and she's going to stay on as a "creative advisor" and get back to doing what she really loves, designing candles. Within the first few weeks of the formal takeover, the GM and several other managers were sacked and a high-priced management consultant is brought in to run the day-to-day. This guy used to work for Starbuck's and was being flown in from his home in Vancouver every Monday and Friday. Within six months, the plant is closed. They never wanted another candle plant, they wanted the product name and nothing else. I never found out what happened to the former owner turned "creative advisor," as I left before the plant shutdown. I'm sure she still makes candles and is very thankful for the millions she probably made on the sale.

As with most companies that go public, GW has slowly lost it's heart and soul over the years. I've never understood what makes someone want to take their dream--whether it's making candles or making cool miniatures games--and turn it from a passion into a product.

It's sort of amusing that 60% of the people polled here are falling into the GW is so-so,to burn them to the ground category,yet it's business as usual for GW...I wonder if anyone on GWs board of directors ever browses sites like this one,I doubt it would change much if they did.
Anyway,OT,I voted they suck,my reasons have already been voiced by others here many times.
I'm actually atempting to build my Traitor Guard through E-bay and swaps here as well as purchases from Pig Iron,with as few GW purchases as possiable,and once I'm satisfied with them,I plan to drasticly limit any/all GW purchases.

FITZZ wrote:I wonder if anyone on GWs board of directors ever browses sites like this one

Of course not. They, like most of the people in the world, have worked out that the internet is nothing but a fad inhabited by fringe groups like Tournament and Veteran Gamers. Kids will give up the internet soon enough just like they gave up Tamagotchis and the Spice Girls.

Tamagotchis

Must kill...

keezus wrote:GW frustrates me to no end.

On one hand, they have a great IP, but these days they spend more effort protecting it rather than utilizing it.

They charge premium prices for mediocre product. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that GW produces premium product... their plastic kits are terribly engineered (and relatively primitive from a model kit standpoint), from non-inclusion of pegs and sockets to aid construction, to poorly realized instructions. The modern metal range relies too much on adding bling to add character.

The ruleset while streamlined, suffers from a lack of depth to gameplay.

GW has been alienating its veteran base for years - and is now trying to be everything to all its customers and ends up coming short in all aspects. The times have changed, but GW stays the same.

In my ideal world, V6 will include:

1. Starter Kit with "core rules" - aimed at kids and high speed games.
1a. Core Rulebook with Black Tome (a-la Ravening Hordes): (Core rules, movement, shooting, assault, terrain, basic vehicle rules and KP missions. Reformats basic stats for all units to keep in line with the new core rules)
1b. Advanced Rulebook with additional rules and missions - aimed at veterans and tactical games. To include objective missions, optional deployment rules, varying movement rules, advanced vehicle rules etc. Optional large scale rules, skirmish scale rules and campaign rules etc.)
1c. Codecies to include fluff, relisting of the basic stats, inclusion of additional stats to play with the Advanced Rules. Hobby sections of codecies need to be improved to contain army showcases and advanced modelling techniques. Playtest PDFs should be made available on the website for armies without a codex to provide base statistics (such as movement rates or weapon statistics) needed in addition to core stats from the Black Tome.

2. Consolidation of the entire line. All add on squad boxes should be axed and reformatted into conversion packs and the basic kits. Conversion kits should not be limited to plastic and should also include metal, resin parts and possibly photo-etch. Universal things to add would be head packs, and wepaon packs. If you are going to charge a premium price, the products had better be premium.

This will never happen of course...

It always hurts more when somebody screws up something you love.

So basically you just want GW to bring out a new rule set that is for small children so that you don't have to worry about said children taking up valuable 40K time . . . Furthermore with the way you set it out if you were to buy the starter set you wouldn't get the full rules, and therefore wouldn't be making as big a saving when buying the starter set. The whole point is that for £20 more than a rulebook you can get 2 armies, templates, dice, scenery (in LOTR). It's the full package for a cheaper price.

Add on boxes . . . now that is a genius idea, but is expensive to do in plastic, meaning you're left with metal (weight added to the model in bad places?), or resin (annoying when the moulds don't work properly . . . as they usually do . . . warping . . .) So yeah a great idea, but only feasbaly possible by FW.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
GW PLC sell product for as much as they can get away with, by primarily targeting customers that are vunerable to low level marketing.
'Selling toy soldiers to kiddies.'

It is possible to get alternative products to GWs , at a fraction of the cost or with much better quality as reguards to rules and gameplay.
Rather than try to compete by offering better value for money, GW just get as much money as they can before thier target demoghrapic wise up and leave.

Not a buisness model that promotes long term growth or good will.

TTFN
Lanrak.

GW does more than just "sell toy soldiers to kiddies" as you put it, they also offer advice and tips on the whole hobby. When you're paying the 'outrageous' prices you're not just paying for the product, you're also paying for the service. The overheads of running an actual store means that the models have to cost more than online stores.

Nightwatch wrote:I change mine to hatred right now. I just went and bought black reach again, and it cost me 101$. I think it only cost me 85 last time, and it took like half an hour for them to accept my debit card. Grrr... for more info on what I'm gonna do with black reach... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249119.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yes, it took me FOREVER to get the damn thing, plus the redshirt ignored me for like 20 minutes as I'm trying to let him know I'd like to buy something (and contribute to HIS comission for the day) and then he tries to sell me plastic glue too.
GAHH!

So yes there has been a price rise since you last bought it . . . shocking! These things happen. Also the card machines aren't exactly the most reliable things in the world, they are quite frustrating sometimes, waiting ages for the machine to verify the pin and process the request. GW staff do not work on commission, they have targets to meet obviously, but this doesn't affect the pay. Finally the glue . . . what's worse than buying some models and getting home to realise you don't have the right stuff to make your models? So the staff are only trying to help you out . . . the amount of people I have asked whether they need anything else, or pointed out that they need super glue for that is a lot . . . But also the amount of people that have been thankful for my help is also a lot.


FINALLY . . . White Dwarf . . . ok yes it does a good job of advertising products, but it also has hobby tips in there, new rules and apocalypse formations. There was the new Blood Angel codex in there . . . And ok so there isn't as many guidance articles on the website anymore . . . but all you need to do is to pop into you local GW store and ask a member of staff for help and they will help you with your request. Part of the job of a member of staff for GW is to help out with hobby requests, give painting lessons, give help with green stuff etc. It's all there, just that most people don;t think to ask for the help, they would much rather have a step-by-step guide on a website . . . in my personal experience it is better to have someone show you how to do something than read how to do it. Then you can ask questions, and they can see you do it and give you further advice. =]

I voted like btw . . . if you hadn't already guessed that I view GW positively =p

WALL O' TEXTAROO!!!

Yeah I kinda put all the posts I would have made had I been here into one MASSIVE post . . . then previewed it and realised how much I had typed . . . I think I have chaff-itis =p

Oshava wins the thread for being the only person in recent history to defend White Dwarf.

Yeah well it's my job to have a positive outlook on all things GW =p

If you let doubt creep into your view of a product then how are you supposed to be able to sell that product to someone else? There is a couple of downsides to this . . . 1- it doesn't make you many friends =p, and 2- it makes you want to buy more =[ lol

Now only if he could have done it without tripling the length of his post with extraneous quotes.

Yeah, sadly I'm new to the forum and haven't worked out the I can delete parts of quotes so that I only get the bit I need =p

Oshova:

It's easy, don't hit the "Quote" button. Just hit the "Reply" button and address whoever you're replying to, and write your piece.

Forum Rules wrote:5. Please be intelligible. We strongly encourage proper punctuation, spelling, grammar and composition, but if we can't understand you, we'll ignore you. Before you post, hit the Preview button and double-check what you've written before posting it, and remember that you can always go back and edit your posts to fix any problems. I usually don't catch my mistakes until after I've posted, so you'll see a lot of "This post was edited 2 times" in small letters at the bottom of my posts.

Ah that is a good idea =] Thanks, I will keep that in mind next time I go off on one =]

Alternatively, just delete the part of the post you don't want to quote, and leave the two "quote" tags around the part you want to keep.

I like this Oshova and his good points.

YAY! *head swells like a hot air balloon*

It's nice to be appreciated, to be honest most of the regulars in my store enjoy a nice conversation about how I like the new awesome thingy or whatsit. It's the diversity of views on things that allow for great nerdy conversations, and other such great moments that make me feel elitist and special =p but yeah it's nice to be able to discuss views on new and upcoming products =]

Love GW models/terrain and games. Hate the company.

Being a GW gamer is like purposely hanging out with a bully who likes to torment you. You give him your lunch money and then he kicks you in the nads...

Except that instead of sore nuts, you have the models, terrain, and games that you claim to enjoy...

GW made a lot of nice product that I bought, but their new stuff is too overpriced. Maybe if their prices get back to reality, I'll reconsider them.

I feel as if GW change their rulebooks/codex's to gain money, not to fix broken rules. I still buy the new stuff though....

Nurglitch wrote:Except that instead of sore nuts, you have the models, terrain, and games that you claim to enjoy...

...At the cost of your lunch money... And, this bully still manages to find a way to kick you in the nuts so you're a soprano for a week AND you're out lunch money AND you get the models, terrain and games. You do the math.

Rico.

@JohnHwanggDD

I understand the reasoning that goes into the pricing of the products, and only 1/3 of the price of the products is profit for GW, which is actually very reasonable when you think of it that way . . .

@Ieatsquigs

The rules are redone every so often to keep the game new and fresh, to increase the back story, and to fix broken rules. Without updates the rules would become old and out of date, new and interesting rules (such as the reintroduction of true LoS) keep people interested in the hobby, and ensure that GW stays in business to give you the cool miniatures =]

Oshova wrote:@JohnHwanggDD

I understand the reasoning that goes into the pricing of the products, and only 1/3 of the price of the products is profit for GW, which is actually very reasonable when you think of it that way . . .

@Ieatsquigs

The rules are redone every so often to keep the game new and fresh, to increase the back story, and to fix broken rules. Without updates the rules would become old and out of date, new and interesting rules (such as the reintroduction of true LoS) keep people interested in the hobby, and ensure that GW stays in business to give you the cool miniatures =]

little toy men at the dollar store cost 1$ for about 100. Yes I know you must be thinking that there's a difference in detail but that actually just saves them plastic by trimming eye's, elbows, joints etc. and also how much more do you think it costs them to add the detail?

Rico:

We're talking about a commercial transaction with a merchant, right? Because unless Jervis Johnson kicks down your down and holds a gun to your head until you give him the money that would have otherwise fed your family, your analogy sucks. I mean seriously, how do you compare someone selling a relatively cheap luxury good to violent theft? I'd recommend toning down on the hyperbole.

JohnHwangDD:

I agree. I like GW, but I won't pay full price for their products so long as I can get a hefty discount elsewhere. I can't blame the company for selling above what I'm willing to pay for their product, since it's not a necessity. I already own several armies, and there are discounters to provide the product that I want. Heck, given that I don't pay full price when I actually buy something, and I've gotten so much from them for free (Specialist Games) I'm actually pretty happy with GW. That they survive without my regular monetary support is icing on the cake. Maybe it's because I've had the opportunity to sit down and sink a pint with Jervis Johnson, but I like the guy, like his design philosophy, enjoy his work, and hope the best for him. Maybe GW will give him the opportunity to produce a game I'll pay retail for someday.

OK where to start . . . different molds are used, different plastics, different grades of those plastics, different levels of quality, different overheads . . .

Basically GW supplies you with high quality plastic miniatures that require more expensive molds than the afore mentioned Dollar Store soldiers. GW has higher overheads as they have to pay for the staff, the rent, the utility bills etc, whereas the Dollar Store soldiers will be made on the cheap in some sweat shop where the workers are payed $1 a week to work there. GW offers you support on how to improve your little plastic soldier or alien through the use of modeling and painting. Once you have bought the Dollar Store soldiers that's it, the company has your money and doesn't care about you any more. GW gives you rules to play with your little toy soldiers and aliens now painted and modeled to look just how you want it. Again the Dollar Store soldiers are still green, still look static, and get kinda boring after a few days . . . So I ask you, which is better?

@Nurglitch

Nice points there, and I support your views . . . but obviously I also believe that GW offers their products at a reasonable price for the situation in which they are sold, and the after sale support given.

The cost of the company stores is a pretty significant overhead cost for GW, if you read their financial statements, significantly moreso than what they put into that part of their marketing department they call the Studio, or even their manufacturing overheads.

OK where to start . . . different molds are used, different plastics, different grades of those plastics, different levels of quality, different overheads . . .

Basically GW supplies you with high quality plastic miniatures that require more expensive molds than the afore mentioned Dollar Store soldiers. GW has higher overheads as they have to pay for the staff, the rent, the utility bills etc, whereas the Dollar Store soldiers will be made on the cheap in some sweat shop where the workers are payed $1 a week to work there. GW offers you support on how to improve your little plastic soldier or alien through the use of modeling and painting. Once you have bought the Dollar Store soldiers that's it, the company has your money and doesn't care about you any more. GW gives you rules to play with your little toy soldiers and aliens now painted and modeled to look just how you want it. Again the Dollar Store soldiers are still green, still look static, and get kinda boring after a few days . . . So I ask you, which is better?






I'm not saying they cost anywhere near the same but do you REALLY think that it costs them 2/3's the price of a pack of terminators to make,package, sell etc them? Tonning the price down by a bit wouldn't hurt them compared to how many people would buy more things if they cost a bit less.



EDIT- I missread the quoted statement sorry.


-Orkishly

I voted 'like' and 'they're okay' i have a problem with the price of their minis, and their lack of coordination. they're horrible about keeping codex's up to date, horrible about releasing physical manifestations of wargear, and VERY bad about keeping their prized posessions, the space marines, on the top of their priorities, next is the imperium. I WANT MORE XENOS!!! (ironically, i don't play xenos, i just don't want to play anymore damn space marines, they've got no personality!!) I like their minis, especially forgeworlds, and i like the game. balance can be off, but that's always going to be a problem when you have this many races. there needs to be more supplemental codecies, and all of them need to be in PDF format. make ones for the eldar, tau, and CSM.

Lastly, better management. i think we'd find they would find much in common before the duke nukem team (thank god that died)

They are made out of plastic, and you only need to invest so much to start any product line. After everything is set up and rolling it essentially pays for itself.

Perhaps I am naive, I really don't care, GW's stuff is heading in a direction that I simply won't buy. Pretty nice minis, and not so great prices.

Well around 1/3 of the price includes the molding cost, the price of plastic etc, the next 1/3 is to cover overheads costs, and the final 1/3 is profit. When you think about how much injection moulds cost etc it does actually make sense.

It costs them something like 1/2 the price of a pack of Terminators to maintain the network of company owned stores. Don't take my word for it though, as you can check their financial statements for yourself on their corporate website.

I don't think toning down their prices will encourage people to buy more. The product has too many of its own caps (points, game-size, patience in painting, etc), and people that will buy more than three Dreadnoughts, for example, will do so regardless of whether they're $40.00 or $50.00. Products like Apocalypse and Planet Strike are about stoking demand, giving people incentive to buy more, rather than taking the risk that a people will plow their savings back into more GW products.

I hear rumors on both sides.

Logic tells me that GW is pretty comfortably resting on the long end of the stick in this situation.

Who's this Logic fella, and how do I subscribe to his newsletter?

Nurglitch wrote:Who's this Logic fella, and how do I subscribe to his newsletter?

Via psychic link... pretty new technology though, the future of the Intrawebz!!!

Logic is for the weak minded =p

Well, it seems like (so far) a bit more than half the people feel neutral about GW but that of the remainder more a pleased with them then not. I think that if we're all honest with ourselves, we'd find that GW obviously isn't so bad. I think it was beef that tried to separate liking GW from liking its products. That may be meaningful in its own way but the truth is that by supporting the products you're supporting the company. And that's true even if you don't buy directly from them.

I'll just reiterate what I said before because I think it still captures the tone of a lot of the complaints here: I'd love GW if they asked me personally what I wanted them to make and then gave me all of that stuff for free. But, again, that would just result in a thread about how much wargamers hate me.

Manchu wrote:Well, it seems like (so far) a bit more than half the people feel neutral about GW but that of the remainder more a pleased with them then not. I think that if we're all honest with ourselves, we'd find that GW obviously isn't so bad. I think it was beef that tried to separate liking GW from liking its products. That may be meaningful in its own way but the truth is that by supporting the products you're supporting the company. And that's true even if you don't buy directly from them.

I'll just reiterate what I said before because I think it still captures the tone of a lot of the complaints here: I'd love GW if they asked me personally what I wanted them to make and then gave me all of that stuff for free. But, again, that would just result in a thread about how much wargamers hate me.

QFT (about the second part mostly)

Games Workshop is a corporation, not a person. I can't think of anything unethical they do, besides maybe some of their shadier legal weight-throwing, so I don't have much of a reason to dislike them on that level.

I like their product; I'll buy it if I think it's worth the price. If I think it's not worth the price, I won't. In that sense, whether or not I "like GW" isn't really the issue, it's whether or not I like the product, and the support and service given to that product.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I like their product; I'll buy it if I think it's worth the price. If I think it's not worth the price, I won't. In that sense, whether or not I "like GW" isn't really the issue, it's whether or not I like the product, and the support and service given to that product.

I think this is what it really comes down to. And, in that same vein, Nurglitch is totally correct to point out the absurdity of the metaphor of GW being a bully stealing your money.

@Manchu
Everyone would love GW to do what they wanted . . . personally I want the new Dark Eldar models and Codex released tomorrow . . . but generally they do things that please the majority and move the hobby and the company in a positive directions.

@Orkeosaurus

I agree that GW can be a bit harsh with the book of law, I know quite a few people who have been stung by that. Also I agree that GW offers a good service to go with it's products, and also the shops offer a nice community for gamers to go and meet new people, and learn new things about the hobby.

Oshova wrote:The rules are redone every so often to keep the game new and fresh, to increase the back story, and to fix broken rules.

Ok stop right there. You've crossed a Dakka-line there with that last part of your statement.

I'm fine with the way that rules are changed to stimulate sales - that's their way of doing business and it's a way of keeping the game fresh, as you say - no issues there. But change them to fix broken rules? Are you mad?

Every rulebook GW puts out is filled with vague ambiguities, broken units (both good and bad), units that suck, units that are too good, things that don't work as intended, things that work despite their intent, and so on. Their rules are not written with the aim of fixing things, if they were, things would be fixed already.

You're a card-carrying GW employee who so far has managed to spout the usual GW-can-do-no-wrong stuff that the people here are sick of hearing. They can do wrong. Every day they make new mistakes (some unavoidable, and they cannot be blamed for those), but please, take off the GW-issued rose-tinted glasses they gave you when you signed up and take a quick look at the reality of the situation. Not all is well with GW, they have major issues with their rules and their business practices - they're not awful of 'mean', and I very much doubt their their actions are fueld or directed by any sort of malice on their part - but don't act like they're blameless and that they're doing everything they can to make things better.

They're not.

They're doing everything they can to make money in the short term.

Oshova wrote:@Manchu
Everyone would love GW to do what they wanted . . . personally I want the new Dark Eldar models and Codex released tomorrow . . . but generally they do things that please the majority and move the hobby and the company in a positive directions.

Exactly my point. If GW just responded to whatever I wanted, there would be a thread like this questioning my judgment--maybe even calling me some sort of tyrant. I think that GW must make decisions based on what their customers want. Maybe we just have to wake up to the fact that not all GW customers are us.

I put it like this:

I shot myself in the foot so I could get good drugs from the ER, but then met the most wonderful nurse and decided to do it again - only she has never been there again . . . and now I've moved on to my hands.

Insanity

Actually the business strategy is to make money in the long run . . . they've fallen foul of that before with LOTR.

But yeah IMHO the rules have improved with each edition, and they do fix some broken rules . . . but I agree that there are a lot of broken rules that appear in each edition, whether it's purposeful or due to lack of play-testing I don't know. But FAQs sort some out, and general common sense always helps. The main rule with gaming is that it's about having fun, and making it your own, and if that means ignoring the uber-beardy rules, and making in-house solutions to broken rules then do that. Nothing to stop you playing it the way you want to =D

H.B.M.C. wrote:Every rulebook GW puts out is filled with vague ambiguities, broken units (both good and bad), units that suck, units that are too good, things that don't work as intended, things that work despite their intent, and so on. Their rules are not written with the aim of fixing things, if they were, things would be fixed already.

This is a bit narrow-minded. Fixed according to who? You? Or some other longtime wargamer? I think you'll find that opinions differ as to how precise a rule needs to be or even if there needs to be a rule or not. Also, have you ever considered that leaving the rules intentionally vague--in some areas, certainly not all--is also a good idea since it allows the players to respond creatively? This is done in MtG all the time, for example.

H.M.B.C wrote:You're a card-carrying GW employee who so far has managed to spout the usual GW-can-do-no-wrong stuff that the people here are sick of hearing. They can do wrong. Every day they make new mistakes (some unavoidable, and they cannot be blamed for those), but please, take off the GW-issued rose-tinted glasses they gave you when you signed up and take a quick look at the reality of the situation. Not all is well with GW, they have major issues with their rules and their business practices - they're not awful of 'mean', and I very much doubt their their actions are fueld or directed by any sort of malice on their part - but don't act like they're blameless and that they're doing everything they can to make things better.

They're not.

They're doing everything they can to make money in the short term.

It doesn't seem to me that Oshova is saying GW can do no wrong. Seems like he's just offering a counterpoint to a lot of the complaints (a la supposedly witty one liners) in this thread that get tossed around the interwebz all the time so that people sound "in the know." No one is saying that GW is saintly. The argument that Oshova was making--again, IMO--is exactly what you said: GW is a business and *gasp* primarily interested in making money. Quick, call the Better Business Bureau!

Yeah, the codices are specifically designed to sell toys, nothing more to it. GW seems to focus on the fluff, then kinda rough out the math stuff.

I am not sure how it could appear any other way, given their consumers reactions to the new changes.

It is so lovely to see a billion Ork players every store I go to.

I would like to see what happens with GW over the next decade, will they actually admit being a modeling company only?

Oshova wrote:But yeah IMHO the rules have improved with each edition, and they do fix some broken rules . . . but I agree that there are a lot of broken rules that appear in each edition, whether it's purposeful or due to lack of play-testing I don't know.

Please. There is a right way and wrong way to go about things. It is clear that GW does not playtest throroghly (if at all) as the rules contain many things that would have been caught if they bothered to check.

Oshova wrote:But FAQs sort some out, and general common sense always helps.

I hope you are not waiting on GW to sort things out. The first problem is that the FAQs do not contain any errata. I do not understand why GW does not issue errata for things that are clearly wrong. As well, the FAQs usually leave major issues unresolved... such as the infamous: are Drop Pod Petals part of hull problem.

Oshova wrote:The main rule with gaming is that it's about having fun, and making it your own, and if that means ignoring the uber-beardy rules, and making in-house solutions to broken rules then do that.

Have fun and do whatever you want? Having house rules to deviate from the main ruleset due to consensus is one thing, but having to create house rules to fix problems with the main ruleset is poor game design. I don't see how this is defensable in any way.

At any rate, you are dragging this thread woefully off topic. Your relentless defense of GW might be better off in its own thread titled "Why GW is AWESOME"

keezus wrote:At any rate, you are dragging this thread woefully off topic. Your relentless defense of GW might be better off in its own thread titled "Why GW is AWESOME"

Yeppers. Good try though mate.

Well actually I think this is the right thread for my views on GW . . . or is the title "How do you feel about GW?" supposed to read "Why don't you like GW?" . . . I apologise if my view that GW is a good company offends you in any way . . . but everyone is entitled to their opinion on a thread, and my opinion on how I feel about GW is that it is good, and I am entitled to back up my views, and argue against people who say that it is bad.

Manchu wrote:Also, have you ever considered that leaving the rules intentionally vague--in some areas, certainly not all--is also a good idea since it allows the players to respond creatively? This is done in MtG all the time, for example.

That's a terrible analogy, as Magic has one of the tightest rulesets that exists. On top of that, when things interact in unintended overpowered ways, Wizards of the Coast moves quickly to reset the metagame through restrictions and bannings. GW on the other hand - waits 3-4 years before issuing a FAQ which deals with a small number of reported issues... on top of this, the FAQs are treated as house rules with no official backing. I mean... WTF.

keezus wrote:At any rate, you are dragging this thread woefully off topic. Your relentless defense of GW might be better off in its own thread titled "Why GW is AWESOME"

I think you must be confused. This thread isn't called "Why GW is evil and to be hated." It's called "How do you feel about GW?" Just as attacks on GW are on-topic here, defenses are on-topic as well.

Oshova wrote:Well actually I think this is the right thread for my views on GW . . . or is the title "How do you feel about GW?" supposed to read "Why don't you like GW?" . . . I apologise if my view that GW is a good company offends you in any way . . . but everyone is entitled to their opinion on a thread, and my opinion on how I feel about GW is that it is good, and I am entitled to back up my views, and argue against people who say that it is bad.

Nothing personal, but we already knew how you felt, yet you were the only one that took 2 pages to explain it anyway.

Manchu wrote:

keezus wrote:At any rate, you are dragging this thread woefully off topic. Your relentless defense of GW might be better off in its own thread titled "Why GW is AWESOME"

I think you must be confused. This thread isn't called "Why GW is evil and to be hated." It's called "How do you feel about GW?" Just as attacks on GW are on-topic here, defenses are on-topic as well.

My opinions are not un-debatable by default. Some of the things Oshova has said remind me of training I have received under corporations, standard "un-debatable" stuff really. GW is a company and needs to make money is not a real argument (to a customer) when I feel I am being overcharged. THAT is my main point here, I feel like their toys are overpriced.

Nurglitch wrote:It costs them something like 1/2 the price of a pack of Terminators to maintain the network of company owned stores. Don't take my word for it though, as you can check their financial statements for yourself on their corporate website.

I don't think toning down their prices will encourage people to buy more. The product has too many of its own caps (points, game-size, patience in painting, etc), and people that will buy more than three Dreadnoughts, for example, will do so regardless of whether they're $40.00 or $50.00. Products like Apocalypse and Planet Strike are about stoking demand, giving people incentive to buy more, rather than taking the risk that a people will plow their savings back into more GW products.

I don't care so much about the prices.

Hell lots of people spend lots of money on hobbies.

What I hate about GW is the nut kicking i mentioned: I don't mind paying for my toys, and the quality of GW models overall gets better and better, but the nut kicking in the form of dropping whole armies after I have spent hundreds of dollars and scores of hours building/converting/painting them is what makes me still fume years after the fact.

One of my first armies was Genesteler cult back in the days of 2nd edition. Then GW Kicks me soundly in the nuts...

Fluke I say and build other armies equaling much cost and time when I would have preferred to keep playing my cult...

Along comes LATD and I am smitten: once again a cool converter's army with that "heretical cultist" vibe I love. So again I spend many hundreds of dollars and many score hours building my Plague Cult. But wait GW realizes I'm a sucker and kicks me right in the nuts a second time laughing all the way to the bank...

This is the crap I hate, and why i feel no pity for them regarding torrents, vassal, ebay discounters, etc., etc. Sometimes the downtrodden need to do a little nut kicking in return...

I only took 2 pages to explain it because I was giving points as to why I felt that other people's views were incorrect or misguided. I didn't realise I had to make my point and scarper, never to return again. I thought I was allowed to back up my opinions . . .

Oshova wrote:I only took 2 pages to explain it because I was giving points as to why I felt that other people's views were incorrect or misguided. I didn't realise I had to make my point and scarper, never to return again. I thought I was allowed to back up my opinions . . .

No problem with that, and I think we have been misunderstanding each other. The fact remains that you seem to voraciously defend GW, then other people imply that I am voraciously attacking them. Simple misunderstanding I think.

"Note"
You did not actually take 2 pages, and you did mention you are new to forums.

-deleted by original poster-

keezus wrote:That's a terrible analogy

Not really. It's hardly a perfect match but all analogies have their weak points. In fact, I think you could set up a larger analogy between Wizards and GW. Both companies are constantly berated for acting like companies. Moreover, I simply don't believe Wizards are just correcting things. They intentionally put vague spots and power sinks in the rules just like GW does. It just so happens that MtG has a much faster product-turnover (remember how everyone constantly complains about that, too?) than 40k does so it seems like Wizards is more on top of it. But, as I said, every analogy has its weak spots. You could also compare the rules of 40k with the rule changes in D&D.

@Wrexasaur

Sorry for the misunderstanding there, it's getting late . . . or is it early? And I obviously just misread it =]

@Keezus

I have made my view clear yes, and I'm not saying other people aren't entitled to their views aswell, and in no way to I think I will change everyone's views, but I just hope that people will listen to what I have to say and actually pay attention instead of sticking to the age old mantra of "GW is rubbish . . . end of" . . . and I don't understand why you think this isn't a good thread to discuss views on GW . . .

keezus wrote:They are entiteld to their views indicating how "they feel about GW" and you are certainly not going to change their minds.

So what's the point of communicating on Dakka? Are we supposed to just post and leave it at that? As I've kept up with this thread, I've gone back and forth. I appreciate the good points made on both sides. What I think is absurd is the notion that the point of any thread is something other than discussion and furthermore that discussion cannot result in people changing their minds. If you have a counterpoint to someone's argument, that's fine. If you're just trying to chase off a relatively new user, that's being a bully.

Oshova wrote:@JohnHwanggDD

I understand the reasoning that goes into the pricing of the products, and only 1/3 of the price of the products is profit for GW, which is actually very reasonable when you think of it that way . . .

Except, per my .sig (which only covers the largest single chunk of my stuff), I literally have enough GW product to last a lifetime. So I don't need to buy anything anymore. And if it's not exceptional, and well-priced, I won't.
____

Nurglitch wrote: JohnHwangDD:

I agree. I like GW, but I won't pay full price for their products so long as I can get a hefty discount elsewhere. I can't blame the company for selling above what I'm willing to pay for their product, since it's not a necessity. I already own several armies, and there are discounters to provide the product that I want. Heck, given that I don't pay full price when I actually buy something, and I've gotten so much from them for free (Specialist Games) I'm actually pretty happy with GW. That they survive without my regular monetary support is icing on the cake. Maybe it's because I've had the opportunity to sit down and sink a pint with Jervis Johnson, but I like the guy, like his design philosophy, enjoy his work, and hope the best for him. Maybe GW will give him the opportunity to produce a game I'll pay retail for someday.

QFT, and agreed on all points.

Perhaps, if I were just getting in, and doing so at pocket change prices, I'd feel differently.

-deleted by origingal poster-

Don't worry Manhu I don't plan on leaving =]

Obviously me being here a week has had some effect on people . . . so I just want to see what happens after a month, a year . . . maybe Dakka might be allowed to have balanced discussions about wargaming . . . or is that too much to ask?

Most of the discussions are very balanced and this one is not really an exception. Dakka is a great site with a great community. Having mildly controversial discussions is a part of that.

Balanced discussions online? Not to sure how often you will get that one.

You CAN have discussions in forums, but you are essentially talking to someone with a mega-phone on the corner of the street... next to that starbucks, you know the one (maybe it shut down in the recession ).

As you can compare forums to speaking to a huge crowd, expect heated debate at every turn, it just comes with the territory. You are most welcome on DakkaDakka regardless of what others say, it is just a good idea to take your conversations with a grain of salt. Perhaps a DakkaDakka vent server could be set up... wait, that is a terrible idea!

I dunno, Wrex. I try to listen to what you have to say and even when I don't agree I feel like I'm better off for having listened. Seems like other people often do the same. That's why I like Dakka. But that's all very off-topic. So, ere we go . . .

Wrexasaur wrote:Perhaps a DakkaDakka vent server could be set up... wait, that is a terrible idea!

I think CheeseElemental started a thread for that in Off-Topic.

A vent server would just get full of abuse, and would probably crash due to the sheer amount of BS flying around =p

And I understand that most of the threads on Dakka are well balanced discussions and conversations, just gets my goat when a thread comes up where there is constant bashing of a point that I support . . .

Anywho I'm done for the night, so feel free to bash all you like, I will just do a lengthy 5 page post when I return =p . . . and yes I am joking =D

Alright.

I love 'em.

Honestly, I know they mess up. Sometimes, they write poor rules. Sometimes they'll over-price something (I'm looking at you Goldswords) Hell, sometimes they'll ruin the balance of a game (WHFB).

But, they're hearts are in the right place, I believe. I know, Jervis blathers on and on, but he means good, I'd think. Sure, Daemons kick absolute-fething-ass WHFB style, but they'll fix it up, (The new 'Dexes stand a chance, me thinks.) I hope. I think that they'll give those armies updates that desperately need them (Spehss Puppehs, Spiky Eldar, Skullquisition, etc.)

Errata aren't included in the FAQs because publishing errata is admitting liability for being wrong (you are saying "oops. We screwed the pooch. Here's how it should have gone.") From a corporate pov, it is bad. It makes you look bad, and this impacts the stock performance.

Manchu wrote:And that's true even if you don't buy directly from them.

I'm sorry, my inner economics nerd (on the shelf next to my wargaming nerd) commands me to say this.

Buying secondhand doesn't contribute to the company's profits, as it's just moving around goods already paid for. In the same fashion do products sold on eBay not contribute to GDP: it's moving around goods whose creation has already been taken into account.

Heh, Macroecon was useful...

Rico.

chromedog wrote:It makes you look bad, and this impacts the stock performance.

Do you happen to know what name GW or its parent is traded under?

Rico wrote:Buying secondhand doesn't contribute to the company's profits, as it's just moving around goods already paid for. In the same fashion do products sold on eBay not contribute to GDP: it's moving around goods whose creation has already been taken into account.

I understand the technical point you are making. But look at it practically, not from the point of a term like GDP: When goods are sold, income is generated. That income will most likely be spent. Granted it is not always the case, but income made on GW products is sometimes spent on other GW products. Aside from the selling end, consider the buying end: the person who now has a GW army is now able to become part of the GW community. They will be able to go to store events and tournaments. And eventually, in at least some of the cases to be conservative, that person is going to become a direct consumer.

Manchu wrote:

chromedog wrote:It makes you look bad, and this impacts the stock performance.

Do you happen to know what name GW or its parent is traded under?

GAW on London

Most Portuguese general shops are not like that, in fact they most of the times just ignore you ( wonder why they are all closing lol)... but we dont have GW and doubt we ever will, one thing for sure pushy sales in portugal would get them a black eye

So do I like GW? Some of their products yes, goldendeamons also... the company and the persons? cant be arsed to be honest, although I do admire Jes goodwin work.

Hi all.
I often wonder if those customers who love/like GW , have anything to compare them to?

I can find lots of cheaper alternatives , and beter quality free to down load rules on line!

I can understand those that like some of the GW products.

But why do they put up with the GW 'wallet rape' , and GW treating all thier customers like morons ?

WHOOOOOT BUY This NOW with a KEWL NAME !!!!!(and pay more than if you buy the kits seperatley.... )

Pay 2 to 12 times as much for an item because its been re branded to have a GW logo.

As GW is the first exposure alot of young gamers get to TTGs , I often think they give the wider table top wargaming hobby very little credance or undeserved bad rep.
This is a very bad for the wider hobby in general IMO.

So I say GW suck!

TTFN
Lanrak,

@ Lanrak

I play many other game systems, and I still like GW. And since when did buying the battleforce boxes (and similar deals) cost you MORE than the separate ones? I'm pretty sure that every one GW has done has cost you LESS than buying the stuff separately . . . so erm . . . fail?

Also, although some things can seem to be over priced, this is to balance the fact that less will be sold, that's basic economics and business sense.

HI Oshova.
I dont class Battle force or Battalion boxes as 'Kewl' names...
Look at the 'Planet Strike' 'deals' a bit closer...

Can you list 4 different games from 4 seperate NON GW companies that you play on a regular basis?

Because then we can discuss what is so different between GW and other companies...

And as regaurd to you last statment .
If GW sold thier product at similar prices to other companies, they would sell more product and grow thier customer base!

Or are you saying its good to sell product at grossly inflated prices , because at these prices they would sell a lot less but still manage to dupe fewer poor fools into parting with thier cash and keep thier turn over static , like they have for th last 8 years...

Plastic manufacture is geared to maximise economies of scale , the more you make the cheaper the product becomes and the more profit you make!
However the 'estute corperate minds' at GW price product so high they kill demand and can not maximise profits in the way every other plastic manufacturer does.

I like the GW game settings and the SG rules, and the quality of the GW products (apart from WH and 40k rules ) are generaly very good.

However when corperate managment alienates thier customer base with a combination of arrogance and ignorance is not great buisness practice , is it?

So GW corperate managment and most of thier buisness decisions suck.

Ergo GW PLC as a company sucks, (comparativley,)not the product perse.

Hope that claifies things.
TTFN
Lanrak.

Hell Dorado, Infinity, AT43 (surprisingly), and occasionaly Hordes/Warmachine

I find Hell Dorado well priced, Infinity over priced, AT43 prepainted *evils*, and Privateer Press over priced . . . so yeah . . . see part of the extra expense on GW products is because they have brick and mortar shops, staff to pay etc. but also because they have such a large range of miniatures they don't sell as much of each, and so the large amount of molds increases the price of each.

I agree on the management alienating their customer base, but in my view generally the full and part time staff are good fun to talk to, some can be a bit pushy, but generally they are just great people to have a chat with.

So this partially agrees with your last point I suppose, but I just don't feel it as strong as you =]

I'm not an ALL out and out GW lover lol . . . I notice the fact that they have bad points lol

I play both 40k and fantasy. My opinion is that Dakka has a large contingent of 40k players and that is something that flavors these forums. A lot of discussion here centers around how to win at 40k. That's right but you might want to keep that in mind. GW is producing a lot of nice plastic models and kits now. I think the major overhaul 40k received with the 5th edition ruleset was a major step in the right direction. 4th edition was a conservative step built upon improving 3rd edition and had a set of trial rules to help the transition. If we are not primarily focused on how to squeeze the most out of the rules there are a lot of other factors to consider such as the plastic models and kits. My only wish for improvement is faster release of new codices and more work put into playtesting and their FAQs. I was unhappy with the rules for Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines but it looks like GW has learned from their mistakes and Jervis is no longer writing rules. That said I think Jervis did do a splendid job with the Blood Angels PDF codex. I think the split of daemon and Chaos Space Marine was primarily done to increase the volume of sales. Unfortunately Chaos Space Marines appear to have only one viable list for competitive play and lost most of their fluff while Chaos daemons are the polar opposite. I think it's very important to select a designer that is very excited to write the new rules for a race rather than someone who is simply content to just the final product off their desk and go home. IG has the best codex yet for this army with a lot of new ideas. I think the new Space Marine codex was botched... A lot of nice eye candy but so far nothing besides Vulkan Marines in terms of a competitive army.

If we look at Apocalypse and Planet Strike I think you'll agree that GW has released some great new ways to play large games that are both fun and not geared for tournament play. Tournaments are the red hot snizzle but it is only a portion of the market and not all aspects of the hobby should be centered around this aspect of the game. So that said GW has done a lot to expand the game for the larger market and they should be given credit.

My conclusion is that I like GW but don't love them. I have no desire to start playing Warmachine but I have seen some other game systems such as Starship Troopers that have awesome rules and a nice line of miniatures to supplement their games. I think it's always important to take into consideration what other companies are doing and what impact they have on the tabletop gaming market.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

filbert wrote:I think us veteran gamers are in danger of bringing the rose-tinted glasses to this discussion. Of course when I was in my early teens and the sun shone every day and school holidays stretched for eternity, it seemed like GW was the most down to earth, caring / sharing business going. In reality, they were just as money grabbing then as they are now. Miniatures have always cost a bomb, and nowadays is no exception. That doesnt mean I agree with it; just stating the facts here.

That's not correct, the figures were really not so relatively expensive when I started collecting the figures at the age of 11 in 1987. The company was run by people with love of the hobby, people who also sat down and played games their own company didn't own.

The change occured when the company became a PLC, answerable to shareholders with no interest in the hobby and managed at senior level by people who thought people who play with toy soldiers are weird. The hardcore change, when I left the GW fold myself and stopped collecting, was the so-called red age in the later 90s, when at about 21 years old my patience with GW (who had taken to painting everything red to appeal to children) started to actively discourage older players, treating us rudely in the shops (I remember being booted off a table to make way for a demo game for little Timmy and his mum) and drove all their efforts into recruiting the pokemon generation.

It is the cynical and all consuming greed that the company demonstrates so openly these days that angers and alienates me. Take a look at the financial report and the statement at the beginning of that, heralding a price hike for plastic miniatures since they are 'of the same high standard as the metals', the metal figures were hiked in price amidst hokum about 'very expensive tin' and now the plastics will be raise to match them. The company moving it's target demographic to a much younger consumer has paid off, they are far less likely to question or doubt the company.

I just put £500 into obtaining the remaining WW game Vampire the Masquerade books (now out of print) from sellers on amazon, that's 2 months hobby budget, I don't spend this on GW products because I cannot bring myself to do it, I won't be taken for a mug by this company. The profit markup on the models is vast and unjustified, they are in trouble because they are slowly strangling themselves with inflated price. If they priced reasonably, I would buy my one army...then expand on it, then begin another army. There are probably 10 armies I could list that I would happily build if the price was right, my ire at their base greed prohibits this and will result in me building my ork army via ebay and online lowest price retailers then calling it quits.

Nuff said. Well done that man.

I kind of feel the need to kill every staff member and find a new staff that seems to ENJOY the hobby more than money. Expensive models, bad coordination, horrible standards for time limits, etc, etc, etc. Is this what GW wants one of its newest customers to see? I see some great potential in this game. I see an amazing setting, (I first got interested because of the fluff) some incredibly well made and painted models, and a decent ruleset. Games Workshop seems to be paranoid about every possible violation of their IPs, and it's killing them. It's deterring fans, possible endeavors which could interest hundreds (just look at damnatus,) all of their games need every little piece approved by GW, too. Making Warhammer Online was hellish for the designers because it took forever for GW to approve of every tiny little wire-frame. They are drowning themselves slowly, and their company is going down with it.

That said I think Jervis did do a splendid job with the Blood Angels PDF codex.

...really? I thought it was horrid. I mean according to RAW, BA rhinos don't even have fire points or ways to embark/disembark from them. Seems like a major thing to overlook.]

Also MGS, very well said indeed.

Sidstyler wrote:

That said I think Jervis did do a splendid job with the Blood Angels PDF codex.

...really? I thought it was horrid. I mean according to RAW, BA rhinos don't even have fire points or ways to embark/disembark from them. Seems like a major thing to overlook.]

Also MGS, very well said indeed.

I think it assumes you know the rules a little more than the average joe, and can make some assumptions. It was made a bit lazily, yes, but in practice it does capture the blood angels to an extent.

Things I like about GW:

-Easy access to other people to play pick up games. It's rare that I show up wanting to play something and absolutely no one is there.
-The settings and models for both systems are cool and interesting which is a huge draw.
-Production values are high and everything has a slick and well polished feel to it.


Things I don't like:

-Lately I'm really feeling like they see me as a mark to be exploited. $40 box of Greatswords, price hikes with ridiculous excuses (tin prices went up; oh they went down? well we have to increase again just in case they go back up to what they were before then even higher for no reason! Oh and plastics should match that because we like money). I understand that it's a company and the goal is to make money, but there's a point where I'm being gouged and it makes me feel less like a customer and more like a piece of meat they can trick into buying whatever new thing just came out that I have no interest in. Stuff like the new website taking out most hobby tips and extra stuff in favor of "THIS IS COOL BUY IT NOW!!!!!" and White Dwarf being pages of garbage in between advertisements you have to actually pay for cement this feeling.
-Poorly thought out rules. Overall their stuff isn't bad but most army books include a good deal of errors or stuff they didn't think out. Stupid things like "don't play jerks that will exploit rules" is a terrible solution to rules issues. Rather than fix these they let them sit for years until the next book fixes it which brings me to...
-Four+ years between army books with no real stop gaps other than tiny erratas to explain how obsolete rules work (or don't whichever) in new editions? That's crummy support.
-Their two facedness. They charge $25 for books of poorly tested rules and often price models based on how good they are on the table, but suddenly they're just a miniature company when people point out holes or lackluster support of the ruleset.


So basically at this point I'm buying stuff second hand and not playing in tournaments (where strict rules interpretations matter) and I'm enjoying it. I guess you could say I really like the game in terms of just killing a few hours but not in any type of actual tactical sense and hate the kind of mindset behind the management of the company.