Look at the title.
Obviously it's gonna be the Imperium. Only insane people would say orks.
+ = and

It might look like Orks for a while. But then . . . then, children, it would be the Wolftime sooner or later.

haha and so it begins!

Orks becuase they cannot be fully killed due to them releasing spores at the time of their death and they also are hard to kill and regenerate incredibly quickly due to the algae in their blood!

FLAMERS!!!

Well lets say every single ork in existance came to Armaggden (Seems Fitting) All the orks hovered outside, and the space marines appeared everysingle space marine, and all the guard.

They all land and start attacking each other the fleets in the air are doing battle, and the imperium would have to kill every ork and burn every place an ork was ever killed, otherwise give it 10k years there be back stronger then ever.

Seems pretty impossible.

Emperors Faithful wrote:FLAMERS!!!

Hmm Flamers could work but the thing is that Spores can travel across the galaxy as well and go onto other worlds and i remember reading the ork codex where they have even appeared on space vessels so you would have to burn EVERYTHING and i mean EVERYTHING.

Emperors Faithful wrote:FLAMERS!!!

Just what I was thinking. But let's give this thread a little more fluff support, gentlemen. This isn't General Discussion, after all, this is 40k Background.

To make this reasonable we need to know:

1. How many imperial guard are there.
2. How many Orks are there.

Ok. Firstly, Navywise I believe that, united, Navy and Battle Barges have the advantage over ork fleets. (Orks are not space-farers by nature). As was the case in Armageddon (3rd).

On the ground, all you would have to do is win. You would not IMMEDIATELY have to burn the place. Just make sure you get around to it.

It would not ONLY be flamers, but predominantly. Orks on a massive scale are just too unwieldy and would not have the tactical acumen of Spaz Marinz, or even some IG commanders.

Xav wrote:To make this reasonable we need to know:

1. How many imperial guard are there.
2. How many Orks are there.

Always with the numbers? I think these things are pretty much unknowable. Safe to say billions on either side.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:It would not ONLY be flamers, but predominantly. Orks on a massive scale are just too unwieldy and would not have the tactical acumen of Spaz Marinz, or even some IG commanders.

And when push comes to shove: Life-Eater

Actually, it would be pretty darn close (numberwise). There are definitley more humans (Hive Worlds) but not all are guardsmen. (But they could be)

From the ork codex
"Throughout an Orkoid's life it sheds spore-like cells containing the entire genetic code of the Orkoid races..........The spores are the reproductive mechanism of an orkoid. When they settle in the correct conditions, the spore will evolve into the species whose genetic structure it contains..........It takes quiet a long time for an ork to grow, while the smaller squigs, snotlings and so forth take a shorter length of time to develop. Orkoids do not emerge singly once they have reached the requiered degree of maturity. Due to the nature of the spore process, dozens or even hundreds of orkoids will emerge within a short space of time."

The dot dot dot thing is becuase some of the info was not important!

@Manch: Life-eater?

@General: "It takes quiet a long time for an ork to grow" Well, that IS reasurring news. (No one cares about squigs/gretchin/snotlings)

Well how can we establish the strengh of each race without a rough number.

There are lots of Orks, built by the Old ones to fend off the C'tan.

They are built for war, they get larger and stronger, dont die of old age and cant be killed by infection.

So being built up since the Old ones Orks would number from a trillion to ten trillion to maybe one hundred trillion.

Its defintely in the trillion numbers, Orks have lived and conqured and died all across the Galaxy there are spores everywhere, probaly growing would take along time to grow a large amount of orks out of those spores but more Orks are always coming.

So the imperium wipes them out in 1v1 battle, is crippled greatly and gets overrun by chaos/nids/necrons.

Say the Imperium beats Orks in 1v1 Fight, and doesnt get overrun by xenos, there are still Ork spores on atleast a thousand planets.

Naughty, naughty. This is about ONLY ORKS and ONLY IMPERIUM. Don't even START to bring in the others.

Im not bring others in, just saying under the impact of Orks the imperium will fail.

It would be crippled yes, but remember this is 1 ON 1. (Anyway, Imperium shall always endure...)

Emperors Faithful wrote:Actually, it would be pretty darn close (numberwise). There are definitley more humans (Hive Worlds) but not all are guardsmen. (But they could be)

There are hundreds of trillions of orks and only a few trillion humans in total.
Now think about how many humans can fight to the level an ork could?
Orks would win hands down.

How can you possibly know there are hundreds of trillions of orks? (I think you seriously misunderstand the value of that number)

Also, yes, more orks would be militirised, but there would be more humans. (HIVE WORLDS!!)

Life Eater (n.) a virus

It's what's inside a Virus Bomb used for Exterminatus. Hours used it on Istvaan III to deal with the Loyalist elements of several of the traitor Legion, including his own.

Ben Counter wrote:Weapons so terrible and forbidden that only the Warmaster himself, and the Emperor before him, could ever sanction their use.

Each warhead would unleash the life eater virus, a rampant organism that destroyed life in all its forms and wiped out every shred of organic matter on the surface of a planet within hours.

Galaxy In Flames, p.196

since i love quoting things from mi codex!

" Attempts to penetrate the so-called Ork enclaves of Gathrog and Dregruk in the southern regions of the Segmentum have proved unsuccessful. The orks have dominated these areas unchecked since before the founding of the Imperium and it is, quite unreasonably, surmised that within an area of only a few light years there are tens of millions of the creatures. It is possible that in such conditions the Orks' physical proportions are even more pronounced, with whole planetary populations the size of the sub-type known to our warriors as 'skarboys'. When one considers the size of the 'nobz' and 'warbosses' of even relatively small ork armies, one shudders to think of the monstrous creatures that must dominate these cultures. Should ever s uch a monster be filled with a desire for conquest, it is a matter of much debate whther any military means at our disposal could stop them."- Magos Bioligis Rastex

just an excerpt from his "Growth patterns of Orks in variant societies"

Well that would kind of doom BOTH sides, eh?

There is no question that the Imperium is far, far more dangerous than the green stain across the underpants of the galaxy that is the Orks. De red wunz may go faster but they aren't fast enough to outpace the super weapons of Humanity.

The ork is a soldier race, no females bearing one or two infants over 9 months, no 'civilians', kill one and thousands of spoors are released creating fully grown and combat capable orks in a few weeks. They are only held in check by constant attrition due to killing each other, from fisticuffs to waaaghs slamming into each other. It is often cited in the fluff that should they ever unite, no power in the galaxy can stop them. The Imperium would inflict massive casualties on them and there would be trillions left, all howling for blood and eager to fight. It's also written that the furthest radio signals from beyond this galaxy have come back to imperial techs and to their despair, has been endless ork chatter.

The future is green...

...Sniffle...such...patriotism...
Aus:
Advance! Emperor! Fair!

US:
Oh can you see...the Imperium on the horizon (or something like that)

Manchu wrote:Life Eater (n.) a virus

Ben Counter wrote:
Each warhead would unleash the life eater virus, a rampant organism that destroyed life in all its forms and wiped out every shred of organic matter on the surface of a planet within hours.

Galaxy In Flames, p.196

I have a quote myself

"The spore grows downwards first, with tiny rootlets that seek out nutrition and moisture just like any other plant."

Im not sure if this would protect them from the kiiling of all organic matter on the surface but it is a possibility

ChaoticOrkz wrote:"The spore grows downwards first, with tiny rootlets that seek out nutrition and moisture just like any other plant."

Im not sure if this would protect them from the kiiling of all organic matter on the surface but it is a possibility

It's unlikely. The survivors of the virus bombs on Istvaan III were sealed inside of bunkers or titans or--in the case of Ancient Rylanor--dreadnought armor. Astartes power armor was about as much protection as tissue paper. And then there's the fires, the igniting of the massed gases of decay choking the planet's atmosphere into a terrible firestorm that does horrifying damage to the inorganic surfaces of a planet.

Manchu wrote:
It's unlikely. The survivors of the virus bombs on Istvaan III were sealed inside of bunkers or titans or--in the case of Ancient Rylanor--dreadnought armor. Astartes power armor was about as much protection as tissue paper. And then there's the fires, the igniting the massed gases of decay choking the planet's atmosphere into a terrible firestorm that does horrifying damage to the inorganic surfaces of a planet.

Well all we greeniez need to do is pray to gork, mork, and Jeebus and we be alright!

Emperors Faithful wrote:How can you possibly know there are hundreds of trillions of orks? (I think you seriously misunderstand the value of that number)

Also, yes, more orks would be militirised, but there would be more humans. (HIVE WORLDS!!)

Think about it, orks have been around for at least as long as the eldar and in that time they have be reproducing and spreading through the galaxy.
If you think humans who have a much slower rate of reproduction than orks and have had much less time to reproduce anyway are more prolific than orks then something is wrong in your calculations.

Dont even get me started on the whole old ones seeding ork spores in multiple galaxies.

ChaoticOrkz wrote:Well all we greeniez need to do is pray to gork, mork, and Jeebus and we be alright!

Ah yes, the infamous "Gork and Mork are undefeatable" strategy. Tell that to their prophet, Gazhgkull Mag Uruk Thraka. If you can catch up to him, that is, as he runs as fast as he can away from Yarrick.

yeah, but they kill each other off. A LOT.
And what would YOU know about humans not being prolific?

Also, DON'T get started on multiple galaxies.

Manchu wrote:
Ah yes, the infamous "Gork and Mork are undefeatable" strategy. Tell that to their prophet, Gazhgkull Mag Uruk Thraka. If you can catch up to him, that is, as he runs as fast as he can away from Yarrick.

He is not running away he is just following basic ork philosophy!
Again i quote this

" Orkses is never beaten in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die so it don't count as beat. If we runs for it we don't die neither, so we can always come back for anuvver go, see!"

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, DON'T get started on multiple galaxies.

Unnecessary. We're not talking of absolute genocide here. If the Imperium had no other threat to face, it could easily push the Orks outside of its furthest territories--which are limited to less than the breadth of the Milky Way thanks to the Astronomicon.


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ChaoticOrkz wrote:" Orkses is never beaten in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die so it don't count as beat. If we runes for it we don't die neither, so we can always come back for anuvver go, see!"

Orks are never beaten in battle, from their own perspective, because they are too dim-witted to understand the meaning of defeat. It may be their greatest strength. I think, however, it is symptomatic of their greatest weakness: the short-sightedness and divisive infighting characteristic of this inferior race.

ChaoticOrkz wrote:
" Orkses is never beaten in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die so it don't count as beat. If we runes for it we don't die neither, so we can always come back for anuvver go, see!"

That would mean EVRYONES winz. If an ork killed a marine, smashed his skull open and DEFECATED on him. The Space Marine still wins...
All that proves are that orks are both optimistic AND DUMB.

Hundreds of trillions orks, most of them bigger then nobz and those are the weak ones, nothing could stop them in a fair fight, at the end of the 41st milliumen there is only Orks and Nids.

Emperors Faithful wrote:yeah, but they kill each other off. A LOT.
And what would YOU know about humans not being prolific?

Also, DON'T get started on multiple galaxies.

Did you just completely ignore what i said?
Orks have been fighting, dying and releasing spores for longer than humans have actually EXSISTED.
Each ork releases hundreds of spores and each spore is likely to become another ork, these spores can travel from world to world and even system to system unaided before finally landing and taking root.
Orks mature at a quicker rate than humans, spending a couple of years growing in the sporepod thing underground before climbing out and instantly being able to emit spores.

Humans have been around for less time than orks.
You need 2 humans to copulate, a process that takes 9 months and normally only creates one new human.
Humans are not ready to reproduce until they are about 13 at least.

Now LOGICALLY which would be more prolific?

...DON'T BRING IN OTHER RACES!!! GAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!

Whaddya mean, most orks bigger than nobz? Also, where are you getting the figures of HUNDREDS of TRILLIONS. This is like a a hundred imperiums added together. NO WAY!

Xav wrote:Hundreds of trillions orks, most of them bigger then nobz and those are the weak ones, nothing could stop them in a fair fight, at the end of the 41st milliumen there is only Orks and Nids.

The Imperium does not fight "fairly." It is fights not only for the survival but for the continued and indeed endless dominance of humanity over the galaxy. And it acknowledges no sacrifice too great to accomplish this. In some ways, humans and Orks are very similar. But Orks are not bound up together by the great destiny and faith of Humanity.

This pretty much sums up the whole debate.

"oomans are pink and soft, not tough and green like da boyz, They'z al the same size too-no big 'uns or little 'uns, so they'z always arguing about who's in charge, 'cos there's no way of telling 'cept fer badges an' ooniforms and fings. Anuvver fing when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to cunfuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me, or I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good. Da funn fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. wot a lot of mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while they'z all arguin' wiv each other over who's da boss, da orks can sneak up an' clobber da lot."

corpsesarefun wrote:Now LOGICALLY which would be more prolific?

Again, it doesn't matter. Orks are just as likely to fight one another as they are to fight the Imperium. All these years that they have existed and humans have not, they have not managed to accomplish much.

Yep, no unification. You get ALL the orks in ONE place (getting ready for the big showdown)and the imperium will likely find itself with very little to do.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Yep, no unification. You get ALL the orks in ONE place (getting ready for the big showdown)and the imperium will likely find itself with very little to do.

That is actually the ideal situation for the Imperium. +++LAUNCH VIRUS BOMBS+++

Manchu wrote:

Xav wrote:Hundreds of trillions orks, most of them bigger then nobz and those are the weak ones, nothing could stop them in a fair fight, at the end of the 41st milliumen there is only Orks and Nids.

The Imperium does not fight "fairly." It is fights not only for the survival but for the continued and indeed endless dominance of humanity over the galaxy. And it acknowledges no sacrifice too great to accomplish this. In some ways, humans and Orks are very similar. But Orks are not bound up together by the great destiny and faith of Humanity.

That wasnt my point, my point is that there are alot more orks than humans.

However xav is right, in a war to end all wars situation between orks and the imperium all surviving orks would be at least nob level in power, they grow through combat and the bigger the war the more they grow.

lol, you wouldn't even need to do that. Just get some camera, film it, and you would have the best Imperial Reality Tv Show. "Orks Trying to Get Along". lol, the best comedy EVA!!!

corpsesarefun wrote:However xav is right, in a war to end all wars situation between orks and the imperium all surviving orks would be at least nob level in power, they grow through combat and the bigger the war the more they grow.

Size of individuals does not matter when you prosecute wars with massively destructive weapons from orbit.

In earlier post it said theres a place in space where there trillions of orks the smallest being the size of Nobs.
The orkz have been around for like twice as long as Imperium. The orks can create thousands of Offspring, whic then creats thousands more offspring and so on.

Xav wrote:In earlier post it said theres a place in space where there trillions of orks the smallest being the size of Nobs.
The orkz have been around for like twice as long as Imperium. The orks can create thousands of Offspring, whic then creats thousands more offspring and so on.

Actually, I think I recall a "place in space" where humans naturally grow to the size of spave marines and have bolt guns for arms, and could snap Ghazgulls neck with a glare.

Xav wrote:In earlier post it said theres a place in space where there trillions of orks the smallest being the size of Nobs.
The orkz have been around for like twice as long as Imperium. The orks can create thousands of Offspring, whic then creats thousands more offspring and so on.

As I said already, it's of no concern. The Orks, in their long racial lifespan, have not managed to accomplish anything of lasting value while Humanity in its relative nascence has conquered and re-conquered the galaxy. Numbers will not be determinative in the fight we're talking about.

...well, they kind of help...sort of...

Who said Orks can't conquer!?!?!

quoting my homie orkie Warlord Ghazghkull

"I 'membered dat Orks is meant to conquer and make slaves of everyfing they don't kill"

And yet, after so long . . . nothing.

The orkz have there own fleets and they are cunning.


So the Imperium wouldnt meet them on a fair battlefield, well wasnt that the OP question?

1v1 Fair fight who would win, clear answer Orkz.

Unfair battleground the Orkz aint united they will keep on raiding and building in numbers into they conquer deeper and deeper into Imperium worlds into reaching Terra.

They would be driven off but remeber if Ork have a good fight there.

They keep coming back to good fighting places, terra defended by thousand of SM, the Orkz would love it.

What exactly HAS Ghazghkull conquered so far?
(And remember, as far as orks go, he is "divinely inspired")


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I have yet to see how orks would win in a face up, fair fight, battle.

He did a lot. But none of it lasted for long. That is the story of Orks. They are excellent fighters. But they were made as a tool to be wielded by the Old Ones, not to rule themselves.

Or others.

Orks = Tools...LOL!

Manchu wrote:

Xav wrote:In earlier post it said theres a place in space where there trillions of orks the smallest being the size of Nobs.
The orkz have been around for like twice as long as Imperium. The orks can create thousands of Offspring, whic then creats thousands more offspring and so on.

As I said already, it's of no concern. The Orks, in their long racial lifespan, have not managed to accomplish anything of lasting value while Humanity in its relative nascence has conquered and re-conquered the galaxy. Numbers will not be determinative in the fight we're talking about.

ChaoticOrkz wrote:since i love quoting things from mi codex!

" Attempts to penetrate the so-called Ork enclaves of Gathrog and Dregruk in the southern regions of the Segmentum have proved unsuccessful. The orks have dominated these areas unchecked since before the founding of the Imperium and it is, quite unreasonably, surmised that within an area of only a few light years there are tens of millions of the creatures. It is possible that in such conditions the Orks' physical proportions are even more pronounced, with whole planetary populations the size of the sub-type known to our warriors as 'skarboys'. When one considers the size of the 'nobz' and 'warbosses' of even relatively small ork armies, one shudders to think of the monstrous creatures that must dominate these cultures. Should ever s uch a monster be filled with a desire for conquest, it is a matter of much debate whther any military means at our disposal could stop them."- Magos Bioligis Rastex

just an excerpt from his "Growth patterns of Orks in variant societies"

If Humanity has conquered and Re-conquered the galaxy then how come their are places of the galaxy that they have unsuccesfully penetrated(haha sorry had to laugh) and Know nothing of. so you can't say that they have conquered and reconquered the galaxy

First of all the orks would fight between each other and kill lots of orks. And then you have trillions of guard, billions of tanks, a million space marines, sob's, inquisitors, daemonhunters, grey knights and the ad mech.

But the amount of Orkz would eventually force them to conquer outwards and eventually reach Terra, the raiding Orkz would get destroyed but Orkz go where there a good fight Terra would be a good fight, trillians of Orkz rushing to Terra.

You have to understand the growth of the Orkz give ten thousand years and there be way to many to comprehend.

ChaoticOrkz wrote:If Humanity has conquered and Re-conquered the galaxy then how come their are places of the galaxy that they have unsuccesfully penetrated(haha sorry had to laugh) and no nothing of. so you can't say that they have conquered and reconquered the galaxy

I think it's rather laughable to consider Humanity's conquest of the galaxy precluded by the existence of two Ork enclaves.

jack1995 wrote:First of all the orks would fight between each other and kill lots of orks. And then you have trillions of guard, billions of tanks, a million space marines, sob's, inquisitors, daemonhunters, grey knights and the ad mech.

*smug look*
Yep. That pretty much sums it up. Good night ya'll!

Two enclaves that humanity can not penetrate!!

Ooooh! 2 enclaves! WOW!
2 enclaves Vs WHOLE IMPERIUM!!!!!

And no evidence about how serious the Imperium attempts were.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Ooooh! 2 enclaves! WOW!
2 enclaves Vs WHOLE IMPERIUM!!!!!

Remember the thread is not about the 2 enclaves vs the whole imperium
its ALL the orks vs ALL the imperium!

ChaoticOrkz wrote:Remember the thread is not about the 2 enclaves vs the whole imperium
its ALL the orks vs ALL the imperium!

No it's not. It's about who would win if there were no other races except for Orks and the Imperium not about who would win if the Orks all banned together (i.e., began to act and think like the Imperium). Even without Eldar and Necrons and Tyranids besetting them, Orks would never cease to fight each other and thus could never be united.

yes but no matter how many orks you kill their spores will continuously keep them returning and spores dont just stay on the planet but they latch on to space hulks or ships or wahtever their called which can transfer the spores to other worlds in which orks can manifest

Manchu wrote:

ChaoticOrkz wrote:Remember the thread is not about the 2 enclaves vs the whole imperium
its ALL the orks vs ALL the imperium!

No it's not. It's about who would win if there were no other races except for Orks and the Imperium not about who would win if the Orks all banned together (i.e., began to act and think like the Imperium). Even without Eldar and Necrons and Tyranids besetting them, Orks would never cease to fight each other and thus could never be united.

If a great enough warlord existed then orks could band together, if humans didnt have the emperor then they would fight amoung themselves

Again, absolute genocide is not the only acceptable condition of victory for the Imperium. If the Ork no longer poses a significant threat to the Imperium, no matter how many survive, then the Ork have lost in the Imperium's eyes. This is a facet in which the Imperium are similar to the Eldar.


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corpsesarefun wrote:If a great enough warlord existed then orks could band together, if humans didnt have the emperor then they would fight amoung themselves

That is 100%, absolutely, entirely, and completely correct. Now you can understand why he is worshiped.

But absolute genocide is the ONLY way to completely stop the Orks or they will continue to harass and assault the imperium!

In this case, orks would be something like mosquitoes. If you are bitten by a few mosquitoes and you happen to be a very big animal, you will not notice it. It might as well not have happened.

But since you say (manchu)

If the Ork no longer poses a significant threat to the Imperium, no matter how many survive, then the Ork have lost in the Imperium's eyes.

than in the orks eyes they didnt lose becuase again i'll say
"Orkses is never beatn in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die so it don't count as beat. If we runs for it we don't die neither, so we can always come back for anuvver go, see!"

Manchu wrote:In this case, orks would be something like mosquitoes. If you are bitten by a few mosquitoes and you happen to be a very big animal, you will not notice it. It might as well not have happened.

Then orks will just spore and come back nastier than ever.
Unless the ork threat is COMPLETELY obliterated then it will always be present.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Look at the title.
Obviously it's gonna be the Imperium. Only insane people would say orks.
+ = and

Actually that fully depends on the criteria, if you looked at the 40K universe as it stands today and removed the elements of Eldar, Tau, Chaos, etc, so that the only two factions were orks and Imperium then "yes" the imperium would win.

However, what is commonly said is that if the orks were to unite under one banner then the galaxy would be swept away in a sea of green skins.

The Ork's point of view is not material to their marginalization even if it never leaves to their extinction. On the other hand, the Imperium is fanatically xenophobic and may just divert enough of its vast resources into wiping the Orks out in this, Humanity's galaxy.


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hellsguardian316 wrote:Actually that fully depends on the criteria, if you looked at the 40K universe as it stands today and removed the elements of Eldar, Tau, Chaos, etc, so that the only two factions were orks and Imperium then "yes" the imperium would win.

That is both the point of this thread and the right answer. I award you with this medal:

Man, i really ought to pay more attention when posting, didn't realise there was 3pages to this thread lol

Its friday, had lousy sleep, feel like hell .. .. thats my excuse anyway and I'm sticking to it

Don't worry about it, man. I mean, you got a medal. Things are looking up!

This war could be a never ending cycle.

IF the imperium were to push the orks to the outer limits of the galaxy as you all CLAIM it can than the worlds where orks had fought and died and all the space crafts and vehicles involved in those battles will be littered with spores and more orks will manifest and again the cycle will start anew.

Perhaps so. But if it is actually possible, I would contend that the Imperium would find a way to effectively exterminate the Ork race. I just don't think it's actually possible.

Since i've been quoting a lot from the libros that i have i think its only right that i throw this one out there
"In the grim darkness of the far future there is only War"

As the universe stands at the moment, orks are still operating as seperate armies, fighting and killing each other as well as being killed by other races. This is the only thing keeping their numbers in check as their reproduction is far superior than any other race in the 40K universe.

This is why the Imperium and Space Marines target the Warlord before their Waaghhh becomes to big, because the infighting for smaller orks to take control of the waaghh will keep them occupied for a long time and sometimes its the only thing the Imperium can do when they can't stretch the resources.

Because of this, if the Imperium was able to soley concentrate on one enemy.."the orks".. then they would be able to push them back out of the galaxy and eliminate the threat of losing the whole galaxy. The orks infighting and constant battle for control of their warbands would give the imperium a long term upper hand.

However, orks can never truely be defeated, and therefore as a race cannot be destroyed. You could stop the orks being a threat to the Imperium as a whole, but you can never stop small uprising on individual worlds so the Imperium would never be able to let its guard down from the risk of uprisings of orks.

If the orks ever became smart enough (and we know they wouldn't) to realise what is going on and banded together, then the outcome will be a different story altogether and if done early enough, the Imperium would lose big time.


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IMHO anyways
Thanks for the medal Machu, hehe, will wear it with pride

Yes, it's a high honor. "Gold Aquila For Not Dying In The Battle We Just Fought." Very few servants of the Empire get one of those. I should warn you, however, that recipients inevitably also are posthumously awarded with this one, , which is the "Grand Cross For Sacrificing One's Life In The Line Of Service To The Emperor."

aww wheres my trophy? a space marin helm? an gaurdsmens leg?
not even a finger?

ChaoticOrkz wrote:aww wheres my trophy? a space marin helm? an gaurdsmens leg?
not even a finger?

Sound the trumpets!



I hearby present you, ChaoticOrkz, with this wedge of cheese to commemorate your noble devotion to the Orks and their cheesiest of cheesy fluff. Now let us all raise a glass to the invincible Gork and Mork!

I will mount that cheese on my bosspole!
it just so happens cheese is my second love, right behind ORKS!

Dont forget the Immortal Jeebus!

Naturally. They go so well together--from what I've heard of their codex.

Most of the fluff i was pulling was from imperial servants doing studys on Orks it just happened to be in an ork codex.

Still the OP question was Who would win fair battle?

Answer Orks, in longterm strategic battle: Answer noone.

Xav wrote:Still the OP question was Who would win fair battle?

Answer Orks, in longterm strategic battle: Answer noone.

Oh, Xav. I think you'd better re-read this thread, my friend.

and now the debate continues!
i say its a stalemate becuase the orks can not be killed and according to this thread the imperium can demolish the Orks(which i still believe is false)

Manchu trillions of orks vs a few billion guard+million marines, now they all land on planets and start a huge fight, fair fight and who would win.

That is what the OP asked what your talking about it Space marine disrupting Ork movement etc strategic gak, this is combat fair fight no tricks all the orks vs all the marines and hey chuck in a primarch or two for the imperial side its gonna be a massarce.

Manchu your avioding the main topic.

Alright, the fundamental problem of this thread is that it isn't clear enough in its question.

Scenario #1: No other races were ever present, just Imperium vs. just Orks.

Impossible scenario, Imperium depends on comatose Emperor, which needs Horus + Chaos.

Scenario #2: Present day, other races disappear, Imperium crushes Orks with the military they've built up to deal with a galaxy full of threats. Orks don't unite in the face of doom, because they are Orks. Clear win for Imperium.

Scenario #3: Orks unit to destroy Imperium (Grimgor shows up, Ghazgull's big Bro, whatever), other races dissappear, Orks crush Imperium under weight of numbers. I think Imperium puts up a good fight, but the Ork codex is pretty clear about how this would go down, and the Imperium codexes don't disagree. Win for orks.

disregarding all the other armies and just about showdown imperialvs ork.

In one end-all, knock-down, drag-out fight between the Orks and the Imperium of Man, I'd have to give it to the orks. The reason I say this is actually quite simple, and based on this small selection of assumptions:

1. The Orks would have to be united into one Uber-huge Waaagh. While this may seem problematic (as everybody seems to claim that the Orks would end up massacring each other...) It's not as big an issue as one would think. While the Orks aren't exactly the brightest crayons in the galactic art kit, they aren't stupid... They don't generally kill other members of their Waaagh in droves for no reason, in fact, when they do partake in mass infighting, it seems to actually serve the purpose of making the whole of the Waaagh stronger. They'll fight and kill rival factions, but this serves a purpose. Like the Tyranids, this kind of fighting tends to be more of a refining and fortifying method than a means of genocidal conquest.

2. Politics. The Imperium of Man, while seeming to have a great amount of cohesion, there are still those members of upper echelon command within the Imperial Guard that seek glory and credit for themselves in the grand theater of war. Numbers game or not, the orks run on the simple idea that the biggest one is in charge.

3. The Ruinous Powers... Orks aren't susceptible to being tainted by the warp, humans are. If you want to run this scenario, you also have to take into account the Astrotelepaths, Battle Psykers, Librarians, and additional strain placed on even the latent psykers that may be running around within the IG itself. We're talking about a potential nightmare scenario here as the table then has massive potential to turn, opening up the possibility for a Daemonic incursion behind Imperial lines. Assumptions otherwise would rule out the possibility of such a large-scale fight, as Warp Travel still has it's own issues altogether.

4. Planetside vs. Space run-ins. On the ground, Orks have the clear advantage, as the power of the Waaagh seems to dictate that they'll only run out of vehicles and weapons a long while AFTER the enemy does. In space, boarding actions are likely to start a snowball effect, either eliminating or converting the imperial fleet for the orks' own uses. Pile this on top of the fact that, given the scenario of a Galaxy-wide Waaagh, what imperial picket is going to be able to stop that degree of a press? The Orks can produce ships on a much faster time frame, and are still more than capable of boarding actions. Even if the Imperium manages to take an Ork vessel, the best they can do with it is score a kill, nothing more. Humanity is not able to utilize Ork technology, Orks are not thus inhibited.

I am going to side with The Imerium of Man.

So, orks can infest a world very quickly once a spore gets there. Simple solution for humans, Exterminatus on EVERY planet with even a hint of ork infestation.

but orksies have space hulks you say? The entire might of the Imperium could obliterate their spacecraft without much effort. Consider all the vessels in the Imperium fighting against all their enemies, now all focused on one goal.

Orks would never be able to make any serious land war effort because the Imperium would avoid it, any worlds that are critical to the success of the war effort would have a rediculous garrison of naval vessels to stop the orks from making landfall.

Exterminatus+better Space navy=Humans win.

Demogerg wrote:Exterminatus+better Space navy=Humans win.

I concur! The Orks depend on attacking the surface of a planet (even if they are able to attach their spores to spaceships, that isn't going to get them that far!), and aren't the greatest space farers. The Imperial Navy would surely be able to blast their approaching crafts to pieces before they could descend on the planet.

Demogerg wrote:
So, orks can infest a world very quickly once a spore gets there. Simple solution for humans, Exterminatus on EVERY planet with even a hint of ork infestation.

In the Ork vs Imperium war to end all wars the orks would have attacked most of the imperiums main planets...
Your suggesting they call Exterminatus on holy terra?
HERESY!

You should no that there are not, in face, trillions of Orks.

There are septillions. Can you comprehend that figure? Trillions upon trillions upon trillions of them in our galaxy alone.

septillions? i say infinite!!!

I think its quite obvious Orks win, but people are still argueing for imperium.

As a greenie, my vote should be orks

But, I propose a stalemate.

The only problem with the Imperium is that they haven't had to fight the Ork in a 1 on 1. The Ork has large, large numbers, and can create more boyz very quickly. But the Imperium has God Machines. Orks can make Stompas to counter these, and in large numbers.

Everywhere mankind goes, the Orks have already been.

I think it's safe to say they would never wipe each other out. The Imperium doesn't have the resources or knowledge of the outer rim, and the Orks don't have the incentive to stop fighting themselves and everyone else.

But, if for some strange reason, ALL the Orks gathered under a single Waaagh!? Yeah, the would wipe us Oomies.

Xav wrote:I think its quite obvious Orks win, but people are still argueing for imperium.

Just because you disagree doesn't mean we are wrong anymore than you, at least post something constructive. You think it obvious that orks would win, please explain why...

Good cases have been made by others for both Orks and Imperium IMHO

40kenthusiast wrote:Scenario #2: Present day, other races disappear, Imperium crushes Orks with the military they've built up to deal with a galaxy full of threats. Orks don't unite in the face of doom, because they are Orks. Clear win for Imperium.

Scenario #3: Orks unite to destroy Imperium (Grimgor shows up, Ghazgull's big Bro, whatever), other races dissappear, Orks crush Imperium under weight of numbers. I think Imperium puts up a good fight, but the Ork codex is pretty clear about how this would go down, and the Imperium codexes don't disagree. Win for orks.

Exactly.

This whole thread makes me want to put the palm of my hand on top of my face. If the orks united they would easily crush the Imperium. It explicitly says in their codex that they would destroy all opposition if they ever united, and with more of the galaxy held by orks than the Imperium, and with every ork being capable of fighting, building and maintaining ships (to a degree), and producing supplies it's not even a contest.

If the orks aren't united, you're giving the Imperium a huge advantage when they already have the upper hand. It's not even a contest there either, the orks would be pushed out to the rim or outside of the Milky Way.


Also, Exterminatus isn't a win for the Imperium, it forces a draw. Saying they'll win by letting all of their planets die off is stupid, they need them more than the orks do. The Imperial Navy's superiority on a ship-to-ship level is also irrelevant, because they're outnumbered twenty to one. Most Imperial planets don't have the ability to build warfleets, all ork populations do.

I think it will be a stalemate as said earlier

ChaoticOrkz wrote:This war could be a never ending cycle.

IF the imperium were to push the orks to the outer limits of the galaxy as you all CLAIM it can than the worlds where orks had fought and died and all the space crafts and vehicles involved in those battles will be littered with spores and more orks will manifest and again the cycle will start anew.

Maybe the imperium after a certain amount of time will begin to run low with supplies and troops and eventually fall victim to the Orks.

@Orkeosaurus

You've hit it right on the nose, thats exactly the case

The orks are their own worst enemy.

IF they could stop infighting and actually organize as a cohesive waaagh made up of all existing orks they would roll over the Imperium with out breaking a sweat and that is backed by fluff.

However orks will never be able to do so based on current fluff...

I disagree with stalemate. The Imperium is very gradually losing ground against the combined incursion of Chaos, Tyranids, and Orks and against the predations of Eldar/Dark Eldar/Tau.

If the Imperium is basically stable against the entire galaxy, then obviously they're far superior against a small percentage of the threat.

Humanity versus fractious Orks: Orks are pushed beyond the edge of Astronomican-illuminated space

Humanity versus united Orks: Orks annihilate most influential or 'hub' systems (Terra, Medusa, Ultramar), but humanity is able to survive in small out of the way pockets that Orks either are unaware of or don't pose enough of a threat to base a Waaagh around.

The answer for the Imperium is simple; Genetic Modification.

Same as the idea for taking on a Hive Fleet, you don't kill the army (well, you do), but primarily, you poison the Hive Node, which will shut down the whole process at the root.

All that has to be done is to make a chemical spray with a highly virulent material that acted as a carrier for some agent that would strip away RNA constructor protiens from the Orkoid spores. Destabilize the process of spawning, and you just have to kill the rabble once.

It would be simple, just isolate the protiens that do the replication, and destroy, neuter, or confuse them enough to make mistakes, and the whole organism will fail to form. You could also do cool things like breeding them with a genetic loyalty to the Emperor, making them small with hands perfectly suited to carrying trays of hors'doerves, or even make them excrete waste in neat promethium-tank shaped pellets.

Kill them or use them, I honestly wouldn't see the Imperium ever regaining enough mastery of technology and genetic chemistry to pull this off... although they do have the Virus Bomb, I just don't know if that was another STC based thing, or an actual scientific development. I'm betting on the former, which means the Imperium don't stand a realistic chance at all.

Don't forget that the orks were created to be super-resilient by geneticists who were a lot better than the Imperium.

And honestly, they don't need the ability to respawn on Imperial-held worlds to win either.

I think it's slightly unfair to think that the imperium is the only one fighting tyranids, tau, eldar, necrons and chaos. They're all fighting each other, too.

imperium but the war would never be over cuz of the stupid spores. Imperial tech and weapons are way better than orks. plus we have the Emperor and therefore the right to rule everything we find! =)

Da Boss wrote:I think it's slightly unfair to think that the imperium is the only one fighting tyranids, tau, eldar, necrons and chaos. They're all fighting each other, too.

This particular topic is concentrating soley on a "what if?..." scenario. Yes all other races are fighting all other races, but considering that the Imperium and the Orks are the most numerous in terms of population, the OP just wanted to hear out views of if the fight was against "just" those two adversaries.

Da Boss wrote:I think it's slightly unfair to think that the imperium is the only one fighting tyranids, tau, eldar, necrons and chaos. They're all fighting each other, too.

That's true; however, because the orks fight other orks so much more than anything else, the amount they fight against other aliens is comparatively smaller.

But with the Imperiums size, it is inevitably only the Imperium that suffers the majority of attacks. The only case I know of where there has been a DEDICATED conflict between Greenskins and other xenos is in the Octavian Empire Vs Nids. In other cases, orks have actually ALLIED with chaos and such (Green Kroosade).

You can try to scrape a draw by saying that orks will never ALL die. But the same could apply to humans. They are tenacious, and famously hard to get rid of in thier own enviroment. (Catachan, anyone?) Just as you could probably not annihilate every single ork, you could never annihilate EVERY SINGLE human.

Majority of the attacks by whom?

The majority of attacks by orks are done to other orks.

The Imperium doesn't notice wars between orks and tyranids, unless it's something of Leviathan's scale, where one of the many ork empires is able to hold off forces that the Imperium would have struggled to stop. I've never heard anything to indicate they attack Imperial worlds more readily than ork worlds.

The eldar and dark eldar are very small forces. Necrons haven't awakened in large numbers yet, but they seem to attack whoever's nearby. Tau are small, but fight more orks than humans anyways. Chaos mostly fights against humanity, as do other human traitors.

Neither the orks nor humans would likely destroy every last one of the other species, but the destruction of the Imperium and the vast majority of human lives would be enough to be their defeat, as would getting pushed to the edge of the galaxy would be for the orks.

I'm just saying that the Imperium is more prone to attacks. Mainly becuase it has a bigger territory (don't DARE dispute that).

Also, I agree with your last paragraph. (It took us 4 pages to there but we did it). Now let's see which outcome is more likely.

(Obviously Imperium)

Um... I'm pretty sure orks control more worlds than the Imperium. They certainly outnumber humanity by a lot, so I suppose that depends on their relative population density.

And the fluff is very clear that the orks would win if they were united. If they weren't they wouldn't win. I don't think there's much more to say there, it depends on what the scenario is.

ok i dont know if this has been posted or not, but ummm if imperium is the only enemy alive and even if not all the orks united to form a massive waagh. Its likely that many many different ones would come from all corners of the Galaxy to fight their one and only enemy at the moment besides themselves and even though infighting would occur there would defently be a final leader left or one that just is bigger then everyone else and then would cause a huge waagh that would kill all of the imperium just because of pure numbers/yoou can only fire so many bullets till you have to swing a sword at a swarm of huge genetically made for war orks who can hands down beat any human in cc and if you bring up power armour we defently know that there way more orks than sm.

so ORKS WIN always and for ever

also heres my sum
1 hordes of smal waagh
2 waaaghs fight each other plus humies
3 massive tidal wave waagh
4 humans die due to fighting beasts made for war seeing as there are so many more orks than humans they could run a line of 100 orks at you have each one take one bullet and let the last one rip your head from your shoulders
5 orks win

1. 2nd war of Armaggeddon *cough*



2. Do you all forget Great Boss Tuska? He invaded the Eye of Terror, and ripped off the Blood Prince's balls, and lead his boyz to valhalla. Greatest ork of all time.


3. Mekboys would capture some IG and make a cannon that shoots them.

4. Ghazkull Mag Uruk Thraka. Nuff said.


5. Orkz are a fungus, one dermatologist can annihilate their race.

Why would you want to shoot guardsmen out of a cannon? They're too soft, you shoot something hard, like beekies.

as orkss are a fungus, may i make a suggestion?
with the athleticism of training i shall just use my my athlets foot cream and remove the green tide from the Emporors Gaze!!!!

Aye. Anti-fungal ointment - loaded in a planetkiller warhead.

Imperial win.

It's so funny that people keep saying that "Orks will unite and counquer ALL!", lol. it would never last! Even Ghazkghull can't be everywhere at once, there WILL be infighting galore!

I find it funny that people think that the imperium can push the orks to the edge of the universe

yeah, but guess what's even funnier? People who think they can't. lol.

In personal opinion, they will never destroy each other. The orks will never organize enough to destroy the imperial, and the orks can never be completely annihilated... Too many.

I count "pushed back to the fringes of the galaxy" as a loss. We have already established that COMPLETE anihilation is neither likely nor possible for BOTH sides.

Oh and point two, it doesn't matter to the orks. They don't give a crap if they kill all the humans in the universe, just that they have fun trying. That's the way they are

That doesn't count as winnng.
P.S. Ghazkgull care...

Like i said it would be a never ending cycle and the war would last forever! Until Gork, Mork, and the mighy Jeebus tellz us orkies it's time to stop messing around and to finaly rid the galaxy of that pink pathetic life form known as humans.

Look, Gork, Mork and Jeebus Vs Emprah and Primarchs would equal Pwnage against all orks.

Gork, Mork, and mighty Jeebus will never be defeated by some pansy human who wears a gold crown like a princes and these puny primarchs who think there all that

Russ and Sanguinius tag team IN YOR FAAAAAAAAAAAACE!!!!!!!!!!

Russ? sanguinius?? please!!! they wouldnt give us orkies a good fight

Russ/Sanguinius tagteam FTW!

Also, I'm pretty sure Emperor = 40k Jeebus, so . . . SNEAK ATTACK! That takes care of Gork and Mork.

WHAMO!!!

emperor= Jeebus!? Jeebus wouldnt need some rusty out of date maching to keep him alive!

Yeah, just some coffee on a Sunday morning.

P.S. Literally speaking, the Emprah didn't get NAILED! lol!

Okay, we're going down Get-The-Thread-Locked Road. I was wrong to take the Jeebus bait. Now let's get back to discussing how badly the Orks would get their green bottoms whooped by the Imperium.

Agreed.

Ork race cannot be destroyed!

Oh for GODS SAKE!
How many times do I have to say this is about who WINZ, not who gets annihilated!

Orks won't stop till one of us is exterminated!

Emperors Faithful wrote:Oh for EMPEROR'S SAKE!

Fixed. Or wrong thread?

Yes, we need to hammer out some rules here. What is the definition we can all agree to for the term "win"?

lol! Emprah, God...
They are one and the same!

Let's move off anihilation as there is now way either side will give in. (Both are too tenacouis when pushed to extremes). Let's just say who would end up ruling most of the galaxy. Even with other foes it is Imperium at the moment.

hmmm how can we define "win"???



'

Win = Opposite of lossing. lol

haha i love your idea of how to describe win Emperor

Post + 1

see?!?! I can do it too!!!

And it's still orks, your original question was 1 on 1, no outside influences, no infighting, nothing but the entire species vs entire species. Orks win. Suck it up EF and admit defeat.

Or, as has been explained in this thread already, Imperium wins by not allowing what I think the Ork crowd imagines to be an arm wrestling match between a guardsman and a warboss. Think of it more like this: warboss is sitting around waiting for the guardsman to get there so that they can arm wrestle. Then he dies horribly as a virus annihilates the life in every one of his rotten cells, layer by layer of organ and tissue. Whatever is left is taken care of in orbital bombardment. Rinse and repeat.

Also, the original question said nothing about eliminating infighting--which all the Boyz 'round 'ere cannot get through their tiny but thick skulls.

Manchu wrote:Or, as has been explained in this thread already, Imperium wins by not allowing what I think the Ork crowd imagines to be an arm wrestling match between a guardsman and a warboss. Think of it more like this: warboss is sitting around waiting for the guardsman to get there so that they can arm wrestle. Then he dies horribly as a virus annihilates the life in every one of his rotten cells, layer by layer of organ and tissue. Whatever is left is taken care of in orbital bombardment. Rinse and repeat.

Also, the original question said nothing about eliminating infighting--which all the Boyz 'round 'ere cannot get through their tiny but thick skulls.

You cannot virus bomb every planet in the galaxy!
that would cripple the imperium beyond survival as well

Im going with Orks. I seem to remember a piece of background saying that orks vastly outnumber every other race, so assuming all the imperial forces & orks were in one place together & had a fight, Im assuming the orks would come out on top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

corpsesarefun wrote:

Manchu wrote:Or, as has been explained in this thread already, Imperium wins by not allowing what I think the Ork crowd imagines to be an arm wrestling match between a guardsman and a warboss. Think of it more like this: warboss is sitting around waiting for the guardsman to get there so that they can arm wrestle. Then he dies horribly as a virus annihilates the life in every one of his rotten cells, layer by layer of organ and tissue. Whatever is left is taken care of in orbital bombardment. Rinse and repeat.

Also, the original question said nothing about eliminating infighting--which all the Boyz 'round 'ere cannot get through their tiny but thick skulls.

You cannot virus bomb every planet in the galaxy!
that would cripple the imperium beyond survival as well

YES YOU CAN! THE END ALWAYS JUSTIFIES THE MEANS! >:C

corpsesarefun wrote:You cannot virus bomb every planet in the galaxy!
that would cripple the imperium beyond survival as well

This would only be necessary in the case of worlds swarming with Orks past count. The Imperium is currently doing fine without them anyway. The superior training, equipment, and discipline of the Imperium would handily suffice in conventional settings. The point is that the Imperium would not allow the Orks to fight on Ork terms.

Damn straight!

Orkeosaurus wrote:
And the fluff is very clear that the orks would win if they were united...

and in the IG codex it says that the IG can crush any foe at any time. quoting codexes doesnt prove anything because they contradict one-another. the Imperium also has way more resources to draw upon than the orks do and Imperial industrial might in UNDENIABLY the best in the galaxy.

Um... no.

There's multiple pieces of fluff that state that the orks would destroy everyone if they united. "Crush all opposition" is usually hyperbole. "Crush all opposition under a set of specific and unlikely circumstances" is definitely not.

If quoting the fluff for the game isn't good enough, well, then clearly my imaginary space unicorns would destroy everyone.

The Angry Commissar wrote:
and in the IG codex it says that the IG can crush any foe at any time. quoting codexes doesnt prove anything because they contradict one-another. the Imperium also has way more resources to draw upon than the orks do and Imperial industrial might in UNDENIABLY the best in the galaxy.

I would say that sweeping the galaxy in a green tide is vastly different to crushing any foe at any time.

The difference is that IG "CAN" crush any foe, they can bring enough firepower to bear on a single enemy to crush them utterly, for example the Tau codex mentions how they were pushed back after their initial confortation with the IG and they only stopped because they were called back to deal with a greater threat. The Tau had witnessed a mere fraction of the IG's firepower.

Orks however are numerous enough to sweep the galaxy at once. But again, this is only if they unite under one flag which we all know is near impossible and in the likely event they ever did, it would be short lived an impossible to stop the infighting. IMHO the orks united is simply a huge "what if?" scenario as its unlikely to ever happen.

I will say in Angry Commissar's defence however that each codex does need to be taken with a pinch of salt, each codex is written in such a way as to make it appear that the race you are reading about is the most almighty race ever. So we can't purely rely on what each codex says. GW wouldn't make as much money selling races that didn't have a chance of winning, and also the 40K universe as it stands is specifically designed to remain a stalemate.

Hence why this topic seems to be so popular as we have removed all the elements that made 40K a stalemate and are now left with just two races and the fluff that goes with them. Anyway, enough bantering from me hehe end of--->

Virus Bombs, aka Planent Killer Missiles like the ones Hous used.

Or bring back the primarchs and Emperor, Half of them are somewhere.

The Imperium only uses Virus bombs/Exterminatus/etc in the most dire of circumstances, each planet they use this on prevents the Imperium from usingthe resources on that world and therefore damages their abilities in the long run.

It might work short term, but later when the Imperium is able to support itself on more worlds, the lack of resources that the destroyed would have given them will only lead to stretching themselves and having fewer supplies.

Also, if a world had a huge enough force to warrant using such measures, the one must assume there would be enough ork navy vessals in the surrounding space to make such an attack very costly for the Imperium. No one in their right mind would allow such a huge force to assemble on a world that could simply be virus bombed from orbit without having sufficent defence.

Primarch's coming back would be a wonderful thing, if that ever happens though, is an entirely different matter lol

hellsguardian316 wrote:
I would say that sweeping the galaxy in a green tide is vastly different to crushing any foe at any time.

The difference is that IG "CAN" crush any foe, they can bring enough firepower to bear on a single enemy to crush them utterly, for example the Tau codex mentions how they were pushed back after their initial confortation with the IG and they only stopped because they were called back to deal with a greater threat. The Tau had witnessed a mere fraction of the IG's firepower.

Orks however are numerous enough to sweep the galaxy at once. But again, this is only if they unite under one flag which we all know is near impossible and in the likely event they ever did, it would be short lived an impossible to stop the infighting. IMHO the orks united is simply a huge "what if?" scenario as its unlikely to ever happen.

fair point. when orks get together it gets pretty ridiculous (see all 3 wars for Armageddon) i am pretty much resigned to the fact the we will loose the war for Armageddon. it sucks up too much resources. however Gaz isnt the super strategist every1 seems to take him for. twice now (or is it 3 times?) hes been chased off that planet. however when the planet falls i anticipate the withdraw of most imperial forces followed by virus bombs to kill off the rest of the orks. what i want to know is where the feth the Imperial Navy is doing in that warzone?????? where are the Emperor's fleets?

My theory is this:

Spaceships are expensive.

Men are cheap.

Lets make something clear. The Orks are a whole race, ennilation for them would be going to mutiple galaxys and destroying the Orks there. (The Old one put spores in alot of Galaxys).

The Imperium is all humans, as was said before. Is every human under Imperial rule, i dont think so.

About the Emporer killing Gork and Mork is silly and you have no fluff to back it up. It states in older fluff when Gork and Mork awoke (Probaly Created). The chaos gods and the Emporer trembled, so the emporer being half dead doesnt help either.
Whether Humans have been Orks have been before, been around since Old ones. Thats a long time we have to presume they have been to most if not all the planets in the Milky Way.

Without the Imperium the Orks have literally no fighting partners apart from themselves this means they will re-produce at a greater rate then they are now.

In a 1v1 battle Imperium vs all Orks (Counting the ones from distance Galaxys too).

Its not relevant if the Orks will ever unite to fight the Imperium properly.

As people have agreed that its not relevant about bring the other races into this too.

I don't think Gork and Mork, or the Emporer have a part in this either. And agreed, as said in my other posts, the Ork race can never truely be destroyed due to the way they procreate. You might be successful on killing every single Ork on a planet, but give it several years and you suddenly find yourself under attack again from a band of orks that grew in a hidden location from the spores of the fallen.

Xav wrote:The Orks are a whole race, ennilation for them would be going to mutiple galaxys and destroying the Orks there. (The Old one put spores in alot of Galaxys).

Do you have a source for the Old Ones/snotlings seeding them on multiple galaxies?

The old fluff (Ere we Go?) says that they go spinning off to other galaxies from their space hulks, but I didn't know they were put there originally.

I still maintain that on a theoretical sense, if all other races were removed from the equation so you were left with Orks and Imperium, the Imperium would win the War and in a loose term "destroy their race", however, the orks as a species will never be removed from the galaxy and little bands of orks will be forever popping up on all manner of worlds and the Imperium will spend the rest of eternity playing a game of "clean up" everytime it comes to their attention.

If this belief of "all technology we don't agree with is heresy" is lifted, then genetics could be used to alter the orks and create a means of destroying them forever.
But ... ... I don't think this idea would be beneficial for the topic as it currently stands or be a factor of something that would actually happen in the 40K universe, they aren't going to become enlightened over night after all, hehe


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Xav wrote:The Orks are a whole race, ennilation for them would be going to mutiple galaxys and destroying the Orks there. (The Old one put spores in alot of Galaxys).

Do you have a source for the Old Ones/snotlings seeding them on multiple galaxies?

I've read this too and I'm positive its in the New Ork codex, I'm currently moving the house around so can't get access to my codex though.

Can we establish a rough number for the amount of guard, marines and battle ships for the Imperium.

We'll do Orks later.

Orks would get iced there lack of reliable space transports would leave them lacking as the Imperial navy grounds them. Then we declare Exterminatus on all there home planets and all those infested to deeply with them. Once they are crippled a large scale clean up is done of small pockets of resistance virtually wiping orks to nothing but feral tribes that would never come into contact with bigger mobs to understand guns or any larger consept we win.

Orks have sept trillion troops you cant bomb them all, and an imperial ship has to get into low orbit to use virus bombs., the orks would destroy the ships while there vulnerable.

The orks probaly have a lot more ship then the imperial but there just not as good.

Course you can bomb them all! Nonsense poopy pants! Orks by nature gather together in large groups which make them extremely easy targets. Exspecially on the planetary scale. And the Orks don't have a huge navy they just don't you vastly under estimate the imperiums ability to blow the gak out of whatever they want.

You cant comprehend the amount of Orks there are like one human for every thousand Orks, and Orks are bred for war and most of the humans cant fight.

Cajun, i think you vasty underestimate the quantity of orks and their ships compared to the Imperial guard. And if was a simple matter of bombarding the enemy each time, then why don't they do it?

Answer, bombarding a location damages the surrounding area's, so if done in Imperial cities or agriculture area's the result means that productivity of either food or manufacture is reduced or destroyed which hinders the ability for the Imperium to gain its resources

Add to that, the fact that in most cases, Imperial forces and civilians are already in the area's fighting. Do you really think the Imperium will bombard its own people just to destroy the orks.

If there was simply no choice or possibility of retaking a planet then exterminatus might be used, but this has always been in VERY RARE circumstances as general the Imperium is able to throw enough manpower to hold off or remove the threat of orks ... ... "mumbles" or to give enough time for the astartes to arrive and take all the credit, lol

hellsguardian316 wrote:Do you really think the Imperium will bombard its own people just to destroy the orks.

i would say 100% they would... very few generals give a damn about the men under their command.with this tactic in mind whats the loss of a thousand or so dog-soldiers/conscripts if it causes all the orks within a given radius to cluster in one location and have the poop blown out of them from orbit. im pretty sure the big mech's KFF doesnt give them a save against bombs that crack continents and ignite a planets atmosphere...

on another note, wouldnt virus bombs destroy ALL biological life INCLUDING spores?

Not having any reallifebackground with regards to military tactics I can't really comment with a firm understanding. Common sense of a civilian would say "no, they'd never do that", but a soldier in the army will have more knowledge.

I imagine in your example above then yes, it would make sense, a few thousand lives to save billions. But what if there were 1,000,000 IG down there, and Space Marines and SOB?, would the same still apply? Just asking for the sake of discussion rather than trying to be argumentative.

In regards to virus bombs I imagine it depends on the virus. A virus will effect a human differently from how it would affect an Ork. Our virus that causes flu, may not even cause an affect on an Ork, wheras the human form of common cold might be terminal for orks.

So the virus bomb would either be something that destroys all life regardless of species, or something that will only affect the ork species. Knowing the imperium, I'd guess the former.

EDIT: we should poll this, hehe
Three outcomes, IG win, Ork win, stalemate no one wins

Why not 4 options? Imp win / orkz think they win / stalemate ( 40k as is ) / both annihilate each other

The "life eater " has its name from erasing ALL forms of bio-matter. No resistance for any living form.

But the imperium doesnt need the bomb.
Orks still fall to their "follow the biggest ork" tactic.
One vortex missile and race/army unity is gone.

so thats where GW got their idea for Orks from ... ... lemmings

4th option for poll sounds good, Imperium and Orks do enough damage to each other to decimate either side

I would submit the planetary bombardment of Orks would not go as easily as some postulate - simply because there are so many Ork worlds (much less other races) that are a huge thorn in the side of the Imperium. If they really had access to a fleet that could sweep the skies and all the Exterminatus weaponry tey would need to cleanse even a handful of worlds then I would have to ask - why aren't they doing so currently?

The clear possible answers are that 1) Exterminatus are hard to come by. 2) It is difficult to clear air space enough to use them. 3) The repercussions of using them are bad for the Imperium.

I, personally, believe it's a combination of all three. To suggest that the Orks lack fleets that can engage the Imperium and win is to ignore Battlefleet Gothic and a handful of novels that describe the terrors of fighting Ork war ships. They win in space the same way they win on the ground, by saturation of targets and brutal cunning...or is it cunning brutality? One might as well suggest all ground engagements could be won by the Imperiums superior technology and use of Titans, because, y'know, Orks can't use technology or create items to equal mankind's brilliance.

The books are clear that when the Emperor was around, when all the Space Marine CHapters were loyal and at full strength, and when technology was in the golden age that the Imperium had slowly and bloodily managed to push the Orks out to the fringes of occupied human space.

That's not exactly managing the totality of Ork occupied space, and that was done at a time when the Imperium had so much more going for it then now.

I'd have to say with all other races out of it mankind would need to have some serious things go their way and totally redefine their capabilities to have a chance of surviving the Orks.

My thoughts,
Thor.

Thor665 wrote: why aren't they doing so currently?

The clear possible answers are that 1) Exterminatus are hard to come by. 2) It is difficult to clear air space enough to use them. 3) The repercussions of using them are bad for the Imperium.

The reason is not being done now is because the Imperial Navy has an entire galaxy's worth of OTHER enemies to fight. if the entire Navy was present + spess marienz + Ad Mech, im thinking the outcome would be much more in the Imperium's favor.

Spaceships are rare and expensive, guardsmen grow in masses under hive cities. The only way they could dominate battles with space power would be to use their ground forces very conservatively, which is probably the worse option. Naturally, the orks are in a similar situation. They're probably closer to the Imperium than any other alien race in terms of battlestyle and capabilities, actually.

Warhammer 40k wouldn't really work if they could do everything with their space capabilities.

Lets say there twenty billion guardmen, thats a very big number and its probaly lower then that, million space marines. Lets say the Imperium has 10,000 battle barges.

There is like sept-trillion Orks, thats alot of orks! Probaly about a million battle barges well close to that number.
All of them united one big waagh!
What do you think?


FYI who said that every imperial ship has virus bombs, ther rare cause there so dangirous.

Xav wrote:Lets say there twenty billion guardmen, thats a very big number and its probaly lower then that, million space marines. Lets say the Imperium has 10,000 battle barges.

There is like sept-trillion Orks, thats alot of orks! Probaly about a million battle barges well close to that number.
All of them united one big waagh!
What do you think?


FYI who said that every imperial ship has virus bombs, ther rare cause there so dangirous.

I think our ork supporters here are totally making up numbers and we will see fantastillions of orks in a few posts down this thread
coming from several universes ...or in short:

Illusionary orks don't count!

Fungi spores may change your view on things from believable to "interesting".

Where are you getting these figures for the number of orks? I swear you're just making it up.

The ork navy is surpirsingly weak. (I'm not going to call Roks part of the navy...they are roks.) Orks weren't born with "space legs", they like fighting close up, not from a viewport. Humans however, have been able to be BRED into a sailors life. If it is Imperium Vs Orks in space, Imperium winz hand down. The closest thing the orks have to a tactic is CHAAAAAAARGE/Waagh. This is not always going to work. And a smart captain/admiral will ALWAYS be able to manipulate the orks however he wishes.

FYI, If it came down to it, the Imperium would not hesitate to blow the crap out of ALL thier planets ('cept the big important ones).

I think the Imperial Guard could easily exceed 20 billion.

20 billion is probably around a hive world's population, and there are probably about a hundred of those around.

Not getting into the Planetary Defense forces, who could easily outnumber them 20 to 1 (but aren't important enough to get space support; the IG is actually very elite).

Emperor's Faithful, do you really know anything about ork space capabilities? They spontaneously board space hulks for the fun of it, and quickly form fully functional space fleets from nothing whenever a Waaagh is called. To be honest, I don't think you know what you're talking about here. If orks didn't have good space capabilities they wouldn't be the threat they are.

I'm just saying that an ork fleet does not have the cohesivness, nor the effectiveness, of an Imperial Fleet. What ork have you heard of that thinks in SPACE tactis. (And please don't just shout "RAM!" or "BOARD!")

20 billion guardsmen seems low. I base my army off the Fortress Hive-World of Coronis Agathon. its YEARLY tithe of troops is 1,000,000,000. im not making this up in in the rulebook. im thinking AT LEAST 150 billion. not that surprising considering all the hive-worlds and the million or so planets the Imperium has...

I have read in the BRB that the ESTIMATED number of Hive Worlds was 3.238 X 10 (to the power of 4), I'm not that great at maths. And this was just a hive world with a yearly tithe of 1,249,000 per annum. And a pop of 154billion.

And this isn't even including the FORTRESS worlds.

The tyranids did fairly well with basic tactics, and they have far lower quality ships than the orks.

My knowledge of BFG isn't great, but it would seem that a "Snorta" class ork battleship and a "Gothic" class Imperial battleship are pretty comparable.

Also, "Orkimedes" was a great (group of) tactician(s), so there are orks with capability.

I think the orks stand a good chance of winning.

1-space battles- short term, the imperium has better ships, but they also take a much longer time to build new ships.
Add in the fact that the imperium often seems to lose/forget how to build things, the replacement ships they eventually build will be, to a degree, less effective then previous ships.
The orks, on the other hand, can get ships out much faster, due to the ramshack nature of ork construction, and inherent toughness of ork physiology that lets them survive on ships with much rougher condition.

2- the virus bombs- how many does the imperium still have, and are they even capable of producing new ones at this point. With any given "imperium super weapon" you have to factor in if they can still actually produce them, or if they have a set stockpile.
Also with the big weapons, the more then bring them out, the higher chance they'll eventually lose at least a few to the orks, and then its just a matter of time til a mekboy recreates it to a degree, or uses it as inspiration to for something truly impressive in an orky way

3- about orks being united- a fight of this size, the word would spread. Orks love a good fight, and tales of a war of this scale would bring orks in numbers uncountable (i'm not going to make up some huge number of orks, since people keep targeting them, but i feel there are a great many orks)

to sum up, while i think the imperium has what it takes to hold off the orks in the short term, i think they would eventually be overrun

1-The Space hulks that orks comandeer hardly match up to the Battleships of the Imperium. Imperials are better sailors. Hands down. Don't dispute it. The only point where such basic tactics work is where you outnumber your enemy. And frankly, spacewise, the orks don't have the numerical advantage.

2-They can make them, but VERY, VERRRRRRRY slowly. And they have respectable stockpile, most kept on mars. I was just saying that when push comes to shove, the imperium won't hesitate to use em.

3-They'd get bored of waiting for that fight sooner or later. True, they won't fight if the enemey is right in thier face. But orks are easily bored. Infighting WOULD happen.

Emperors Faithful wrote:1-The Space hulks that orks comandeer hardly match up to the Battleships of the Imperium. Imperials are better sailors. Hands down. Don't dispute it. The only point where such basic tactics work is where you outnumber your enemy. And frankly, spacewise, the orks don't have the numerical advantage.

2-They can make them, but VERY, VERRRRRRRY slowly. And they have respectable stockpile, most kept on mars. I was just saying that when push comes to shove, the imperium won't hesitate to use em.

3-They'd get bored of waiting for that fight sooner or later. True, they won't fight if the enemey is right in thier face. But orks are easily bored. Infighting WOULD happen.

1-i realize that orks don't build ships of the same quality, or make as good of sailers (though telling me not to dispute it is a touch annoying), what i'm saying is that orks can go for a quantity over quality effect. As for numeric advantage, how long does it take orks to cobble a fleet together, how long does it take the imperium.
orks are willing to take losses that humans won't, if nothing else, i could see orks winning engagements simply by plowing into the imperium ships, so they can fight up close

2-really? cause most of the time in the books/fluff i've heard the imperium mention some of their more impressive weapons, it almost always seems to talk about how irreplaceable they are.
3- if it was only a couple of planets then yea, the orks could very well start infighting, but with the entire imperium as an orky target, and no one else out there, I image that in true ork fashion, they would just start launching into the warp in the imperiums direction, popping out who knows where

Manchu wrote:

ChaoticOrkz wrote:Well all we greeniez need to do is pray to gork, mork, and Jeebus and we be alright!

Ah yes, the infamous "Gork and Mork are undefeatable" strategy. Tell that to their prophet, Gazhgkull Mag Uruk Thraka. If you can catch up to him, that is, as he runs as fast as he can away from Yarrick.

So wait - if the Imperium removed it's "No clones, cause that's bad, Mmkay?" law, then all that the IG would need to do is clone a million, billion Yarricks and the Orks would simply flee the Galaxy, leaving trails of frightened urine in their wake?

Excellent...

Metallifan who says the Orks aint going to steal the technolgy.

Is Yarrich even alive, i mean it was his day of retirement when the second war of Armagdenn, and fifty years later is the 3d war!

Emporers faithfull ok there 154 billion humans up against trillions of Orks.

Not every civilan can fight, so there gonna be about possibly 80 billion, maybe more guard.

An ork will beat a human hands down in a fight, the lasgun wouldnt take down an Ork boy that fast, and i dont think you understand the amount of Orks were talking about.

Imagine in your head a million guard. Rows and rows of guard with lasguns across there chest. Now imagine 80 Billion Guard, that is so much guard you wouldnt be able to see them all. Now imagine a trillion Orks all lined up, thats a bloody lot.

Xav wrote:Metallifan who says the Orks aint going to steal the technolgy.

Is Yarrich even alive, i mean it was his day of retirement when the second war of Armagdenn, and fifty years later is the 3d war!

Wait wait wait... Are you saying... ....Looted Yarrick? That is the single best picture I have ever had in my mind. Even better than the Looted Emperor drawing. If I ever start an Ork Army, I may just have to build a Looted Yarrick for the hell of it

Lol Looted Yarrich sounds fun but i was talking about the clone tech, and does the 'umans even have that tech.

cloning technology does already exist. lol more than half of IG players include Creed in their lists including myself. thats a lot of Creed-cloning hur hur hur.

Emperors Faithful wrote:First of all the orks would fight between each other and kill lots of orks.

No they wouldn't. Ghazghkull gave the the Orks of Urk an Ultimatum. To attack Armageddon and what happened. They didn't attack each other because of Ghazghkull. He united them all under one banner. If Ghazghkull, being the prophet and all, united the entire Ork Race under his banner, they will not kill each other.

Think about it.

The Orks would outnumber the Imperium a million to one. At Armageddon, Ghazghkull had over TWELVE Space Hulks and TWO THOUSAND Ships. There are trillions of Orks. Just from 12 Space Hulks and over 2000 Ships, Armageddon took massive punishment from the Orks and Ghazghkull and his allies are a very tiny fraction of the amount of existing Orks. The Orks have enough Space Hulks to have at least 50 Space Hulks attacking each Imperial planet.

Eat that

Nailz94 wrote:The Orks would outnumber the Imperium a million to one. At Armageddon, Ghazghkull had over TWELVE Space Hulks and TWO THOUSAND Ships. There are trillions of Orks. Just from 12 Space Hulks and over 2000 Ships, Armageddon took massive punishment from the Orks and Ghazghkull and his allies are a very tiny fraction of the amount of existing Orks. The Orks have enough Space Hulks to have at least 50 Space Hulks attacking each Imperial planet.

Eat that

And yet Ghazghkull, who was an exception to the rule in terms of getting the orks to unify, still managed to fail. I suggest you eat it yourself.

Emperors Faithful wrote:1-The Space hulks that orks comandeer hardly match up to the Battleships of the Imperium.

Yeah, but dude.

There's enough Space Hulks to outnumber all the Imperial Battleships.

Don't get me started on Ork Roks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Nailz94 wrote:The Orks would outnumber the Imperium a million to one. At Armageddon, Ghazghkull had over TWELVE Space Hulks and TWO THOUSAND Ships. There are trillions of Orks. Just from 12 Space Hulks and over 2000 Ships, Armageddon took massive punishment from the Orks and Ghazghkull and his allies are a very tiny fraction of the amount of existing Orks. The Orks have enough Space Hulks to have at least 50 Space Hulks attacking each Imperial planet.

Eat that

And yet Ghazghkull, who was an exception to the rule in terms of getting the orks to unify, still managed to fail.

Yes, because he didn't unify enough Orks to take Armageddon. If the entire Ork race united, they could probably take out entire planetary systems in a matter of hours.

I think you're forgetting that

1. We outnumber you humie gitz.
2. Ork Reproduction Rates are incredibly fast. ( A lot faster than humans )
3. The Orkoid Race have been living longer than the Human Race.

Ha!

Manchu wrote:

Nailz94 wrote:The Orks would outnumber the Imperium a million to one. At Armageddon, Ghazghkull had over TWELVE Space Hulks and TWO THOUSAND Ships. There are trillions of Orks. Just from 12 Space Hulks and over 2000 Ships, Armageddon took massive punishment from the Orks and Ghazghkull and his allies are a very tiny fraction of the amount of existing Orks. The Orks have enough Space Hulks to have at least 50 Space Hulks attacking each Imperial planet.

Eat that

And yet Ghazghkull, who was an exception to the rule in terms of getting the orks to unify, still managed to fail. I suggest you eat it yourself.

But, Ghasghkull never intended to conquer Arm(3rd war) he wanted to put it in a state of eternal war, so he could take the rest of the sector with little to no effort(that's from the codex, so don't go on that I made it up)

Nailz94 wrote:I think you're forgetting that

1. We outnumber you humie gitz.
2. Ork Reproduction Rates are incredibly fast. ( A lot faster than humans )
3. The Orkoid Race have been living longer than the Human Race.

*yawn*
(1) Doesn't matter: orks are poorly trained and equipped and lack discipline.
(2) The casualties will not be replaced fast enough to deal with Imperium super weapons.
(3) And in all that time they have accomplished virtually nothing.

You're making this too hard on yourself. Go ahead and read the whole thread before posting.

Huffy wrote:But, Ghasghkull never intended to conquer Arm(3rd war) he wanted to put it in a state of eternal war, so he could take the rest of the sector with little to no effort(that's from the codex, so don't go on that I made it up)

Ork supporters always want to define a conflict so that there is no way that they can lose. Ask yourself this: Is Armageddon an Imperial world or an Ork world?

Ok are we agreed that there are trillions of Orks, we releasing like a thousand spores and each spore turn into a Ork and so on.

Manchu, the imperial super weapons?

Lol, the lasgun is a weak weapon, and wouldnt be able to take down enough Ork boys, before the guardsman dies.

Ok are we agreed that for every 1 guardsman atleast a thousand Orks?

The Imperium possesses many super weapons but the virus bomb is the most famous example. Other examples are cyclonic torpedoes and atmospheric incineration torpedoes. If these were only used on Ork inhabited worlds, i.e., those that are already lost to the Imperium, then the part of the Ork population that poses a significant threat (those already gathered together) would be drastically decreased without resulting in any loss to Imperial resources. It will never matter, no matter how many times you bring it up, how many Orks there are because all the Imperium must do is divide and conquer. The very nature of the Orks makes this easier than any other race, except perhaps Chaos. I suppose I must remind you again that the Old Ones did not create the Orks to rule themselves or even to exist forever--after all, the Old Ones would have had no interest in a huge, uncontrollable population of savages after the Necrontyr threat was destroyed--but only as a tool. This is why they show no ability to achieve more than the fleeting glory of a Waaagh!, when they can even manage that. Finally, the issue of spores is of no concern. Spores can easily be found and destroyed. That is why Armageddon was not swarming with Orks between the two wars.

Armageddon wasn't what now? It *did* have a massive indigenous population of Feral Orks that the Imperium could never manage to get rid of that joined with the new invasion. That's per the Armageddon book.

So I guess they were just at home knitting during the first war?

Manchu, I'm proud to award you the Grot Liberation Kommitte's prodigious Red Star of Hating Orks.

Wear it proudly, komrade!

i wonder how many more pages of each side refusing to believe they could somehow not be the winner this will go on for.


ORKS IS BEST

Orkeosaurus wrote:Manchu, I'm proud to award you the Grot Liberation Kommitte's prodigious Red Star of Hating Orks.

Wear it proudly, komrade!

Finally! Check out my profile page, Orkeosaurus.

Orks because they will Deep Strike millions of Hulk babies inside the Imperium's lines.

Manchu wrote:Finally! Check out my profile page, Orkeosaurus.

Nice!

You deserve it.

Everyone is receiving awards! i proudly display my cheese!

Xav wrote:

Ok are we agreed that for every 1 guardsman atleast a thousand Orks?

...um, no? Where the hell are you getting these statistics? There may be more orks than humans, but only by a small margin. Imperium DEFINITELY has more territory, and humans there are packed in like sardines. From what I've heard, orks don't go for the URBAN life so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@greenskin lynn: The BESTEST weapons are often irreplaceble, but they can manufacture basic cyclonic torpedoes and such well enough. (In a "hundred years religeous nut" kind of way")

How can the orks have a larger population, less territory, and less population density?

How can they have a larger population, with less territory?
Unless you litteraly pack them like sardines in a can. Also, from what I've heard orks are by no means Urbanised on the scale of Hive Cities. I could be wrong but point out something comparable to an Ork hive city.
1) It must be as common as Hive Cities
2) It can't be an EX- Imperial City.

You yourself admitted they have a larger population.

And I still don't know where you're pulling this "more territory" stat from.

I didn't admit it. I said it is a possibilty for them to outnumber the ARMED guard forces. Including civies would mean orks are outnumbered by far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(P.S. Imperium is the largest Glactic Empire/whatever the galaxy has ever seen. (Even Eldar were smaller, just more concentrated and...betterer.)

Maybe a real reference should do better:

Codex armageddon ( biggest ork waagh lately )

Orkz
-1304 formations of orkzez, some hundred to 3k strong = estimated 3.912.000
-275 mega-panzaz
-108 gargants

imperium
-273 rgt or equal formations, questionable size. min= 5k strong => 1.365.000
-152 SM comp. => max size = 15.200
-1000 sob
-skittari, unsure. Maybe 14.000-70.000
-5 1/4 Titan Legio = 50-60 titans?

Looks like ork vs imp = 2:1

Now we know why orks believe they got bazillions of orks = can't win otherwise

In a standard 3:1 or 2:1 situation, victory goes to the imperium.

Those still claiming all orks unite and gather, may research the weigth of soo many orks.
Could break the planets surface.

death to the filthy greenskins who blaspheme against the Emperor's with their continued existence in His galaxy!!!!!!

GLORY FOR THE IMPERIUM OF MAN!

btw has anyone read the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer's section on orks? most of it is so wrong its comical lol. there is a pic in there of an guardsman bayoneting a "ork" that is smaller than he is. it also says a guardsman is just as strong as an ork...lol

Manchu wrote:So I guess they were just at home knitting during the first war?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that during the first war was when the Orks who came to Armageddon infected it with Ork spores and therefore there was no Feral Ork population to do anything...as codex Armageddon says is what happened. I'm not really sure what you're arguing there. Have you read Codex Armageddon? It might give you some interesting insight to the whole Ork vs. Imperium thing since the book is, to a large degree, about Orks vs. Imperium.

Do all of you forget the Orkz of Angelis?


They live a peaceful existence inside of a city.


Therefore if all Orkz are lead by Mekboyz, they can make peace with the Emperor and CONQUER THE GALAXY AND SHARE THE PLUNDER.

Thor665 wrote:Have you read Codex Armageddon? It might give you some interesting insight to the whole Ork vs. Imperium thing since the book is, to a large degree, about Orks vs. Imperium.

I don't have Codex Armageddon. Thankfully, people have been posting snippets from it. Let's see. Hmmm . . .

1hadhq wrote:Orkz
-1304 formations of orkzez, some hundred to 3k strong = estimated 3.912.000
-275 mega-panzaz
-108 gargants

imperium
-273 rgt or equal formations, questionable size. min= 5k strong => 1.365.000
-152 SM comp. => max size = 15.200
-1000 sob
-skittari, unsure. Maybe 14.000-70.000
-5 1/4 Titan Legio = 50-60 titans?

Looks like ork vs imp = 2:1

And Imperials still win. You're right Thor665: this is a very interesting insight. I wonder if Codex Armageddon says anything about those feral Ork populations after the third war?

But to straighten out a possible misunderstanding: the first war was between Imperium (IG, SW, GK) and Chaos (Angron). I don't think there were any Orks around back then to infect the planet. And if there were, they must have been knitting while Angron was being defeated. Or taking notes on being defeated.

@Emperors Faithful
i know you are faithfull to the emperor and stuff but seriously man (i call you man as dispite your apparent mental age your profile states you are 16) you need to admit defeat, its been proved pretty soundly and accepted by everyone on this thread except you that orks massively outnumber humans by a minimum of 2:1.

The necrons have been sleeping for million years, the Orks were created to conquer the Necrons, now that means that the Orks have been around for atleast a million years.

Orks fight each other and eldar/dark eldar/Demons alot now, spores released from one Ork create atleast another hundred Ork.

Ork kill each other that has been going on for million year.

I dont know about you but thats alot of Orks.
Can someone do the math, one Ork in its lifetime releases 100 spores, each become an ork and thats been going for a million years.

That means Orks are never under strenght. Emporer Faithful there are Ork spores in multiply Galaxys and Imperial Sentrys have come back with recorded Ork chatta or something.
That means there are Galaxys full of Orks so we got to count them to

That puts there numbers obviously a little over a trillion probaly more.

Manchu most Orks dont go on a waagh, isnt it in the Codex that there a place in space where all Orks are like nob size and there's trillions of them.

Manchu wrote:But to straighten out a possible misunderstanding: the first war was between Imperium (IG, SW, GK) and Chaos (Angron). I don't think there were any Orks around back then to infect the planet. And if there were, they must have been knitting while Angron was being defeated. Or taking notes on being defeated.

Mmmm, good point, my bad. But, there wouldn't have been an indigenous Ork population during the first or second wars which is what I thought you were asking about when you asked about indigious Orks during the 1st Armageddon War (I'd just presumed it was the first Ork one and had answered thusly) the infection only starts once they show up (in this case the 2nd war aka the initial Ork invasion. In the aftermath of the 3rd Armageddon War all we know for sure is that though (as far as the world-wide tourney that decided the battle which, I submit, tends to show more the relative strength of various army lists at that time) the Imperium managed a narrow victory. Fighting still continues there to this day, the Orks consider it a great place to go anytime they want a fight, and there is still an indigenous Ork population that the Imps have not managed to wipe out. If you want to discuss worlwide campaigns I suppose I could point to the Green Crusade as a sign of Ork superiority in the face of Imperial defenders.

I do think those numbers from Armageddon show an interesting facet about Ork space forces (which I have seen some members dismiss as almost non-existent in this thread). It's also worthy of note that in a fluff concept any Ork mekboy has the capability to create gargants and/or Orkish space craft because he's born with the knowledge on a genetic level. Imperial space and Titan technology is an art that is slowly being lost and if anything were to happen to some of the major production facilities they would be up a special creek sans paddle.

For me the Ork victory is due to the way they are made - they are born with all they need to start killing and making whatever technology they desire. The Imperium has better strategy - but they desperately need it due to a loss of technology know how, vastly inferior population generation, and the foibles of having to train their troops. Yes, the Imperium can easily and handily manage to kill Orks at a 2:1 ratio...but Orks can afford that ratio, and the Imperium cannot.

Still waiting for the orks to admit defeat

You don't need to follow the fluff and insist on " win even when not winning"

Where i did provide a source, this isn't the case for our ork supporters.

Simple fact: Ghaz had 4.000.000 orks. ( C: armageddon) Some imperial worlds have a tithe of 5.000.000 guardsmen. ( BRB )
Sorry, your superior numbers doesn't exist.

The fact stands: C: IG, back => Imperial guard = greatest military in the galaxy.

Now, maybe we drop both promotional pieces ( codex IG and orks ) and return to a useful debate.

1hadhq doent you understand Orks have been around million years and they produce alot of spores in there lifetime and there are lots of Orks in other Galaxys its impossible for the Imperium to win.

Xav wrote:1hadhq doent you understand Orks have been around million years and they produce alot of spores in there lifetime and there are lots of Orks in other Galaxys its impossible for the Imperium to win.

i do understand that orks are longtime inhabitants as a race in this galaxy.

But orks die fast.
Doesnt matter how many had lived in the past or will live in the future.
Its only about the present.

And i did provide something to base on numbers for humans.
If you can't, then surrender.




I offered a "drop the trillions of orks nonsense " and we drop the " mightiest military" claim.
You don't like this offer? Trading something with support from background against ork-fanboi-dreams?
Was a good offer...

Then we must reconquer this galaxy and cleanse it from any xenos. Sorry, isn't personal.

ChaoticOrkz wrote:From the ork codex
"Throughout an Orkoid's life it sheds spore-like cells containing the entire genetic code of the Orkoid races..........The spores are the reproductive mechanism of an orkoid. When they settle in the correct conditions, the spore will evolve into the species whose genetic structure it contains..........It takes quiet a long time for an ork to grow, while the smaller squigs, snotlings and so forth take a shorter length of time to develop. Orkoids do not emerge singly once they have reached the requiered degree of maturity. Due to the nature of the spore process, dozens or even hundreds of orkoids will emerge within a short space of time."

The dot dot dot thing is becuase some of the info was not important!

ChaoticOrkz wrote:since i love quoting things from mi codex!

" Attempts to penetrate the so-called Ork enclaves of Gathrog and Dregruk in the southern regions of the Segmentum have proved unsuccessful. The orks have dominated these areas unchecked since before the founding of the Imperium and it is, quite unreasonably, surmised that within an area of only a few light years there are tens of millions of the creatures. It is possible that in such conditions the Orks' physical proportions are even more pronounced, with whole planetary populations the size of the sub-type known to our warriors as 'skarboys'. When one considers the size of the 'nobz' and 'warbosses' of even relatively small ork armies, one shudders to think of the monstrous creatures that must dominate these cultures. Should ever s uch a monster be filled with a desire for conquest, it is a matter of much debate whther any military means at our disposal could stop them."- Magos Bioligis Rastex

just an excerpt from his "Growth patterns of Orks in variant societies"

[quote=CopsesThink about it, orks have been around for at least as long as the eldar and in that time they have be reproducing and spreading through the galaxy.
If you think humans who have a much slower rate of reproduction than orks and have had much less time to reproduce anyway are more prolific than orks then something is wrong in your calculations.

Dont even get me started on the whole old ones seeding ork spores in multiple galaxies.

Oh, he insists on his wrong ways.....

And again:

Orks do not decide to follow, they fight for it.
Now your "new" orks happily start a friendly debate with tea and cookies and discuss who shall lead?

Sorry, your orks united thing doesn't fly ever.

Not only " every ork in this galaxy, but also every ork in existance".
Ok, we get the traitors back then.

Such claims deserve badly made up counter arguments.


Maybe elaborate why the imperium should have all fluff-restrictions but orks should not ?

If Orks banded together, they could virtually take on the entire galaxy.

As it stands, they are a self-defeating threat with varying danger depending on the Strength and Scope of whatever Warboss leading whatever WARRHHH.

Hey guys, I heard there were like . . . a septrillion orkz or something. Have you heard that???

Sorry , Xav, couldn't resist.

Xav wrote:
Ok 1hadhq you understand that Orks outnumber the Impium greatly. Good, now if waves upon waves of 7 foot monsters charged at you, and you had a gun which is rather inaffective vs them would you hold your ground, not every citizen can fight, every Ork can fight, an syncrinzed Ork assault on multiple planets would destroy the Imperiums morale.
In these distant Galaxys who knows, there might be a greater big Ork then Ghazakk thraza, and a better strategium.

As stubborn german i would need to run out of ammo to even think of regrouping

Bad idea to throw me in. Now your orks will die. All of them without any exception.
Ask why? Simply because GW needs me more than your orks, therefore i get whatever is needed to survive and win!

See, one of the advantages of humans is morale. And strategy, and organization and adaptability. Shall i keep on?

Dumb creatures of war won't cut it in an all out galaxy wide war.
So youre strong? Hint: martial arts, strength may not win.

1hadhq wrote:
Simple fact: Ghaz had 4.000.000 orks. ( C: armageddon) Some imperial worlds have a tithe of 5.000.000 guardsmen. ( BRB )
Sorry, your superior numbers doesn't exist.

I do see where you're going with this, and numberwise it is quite reasonably argued. In fact, I will note you are weakening your arguement by claiming some worlds have a 5 million draft, because there are also worlds with a draft somewhere around *50 million*. However - at the same point - I would note that while you quote the Orks at 4 million you also have to then quote an Armageddon that only had approx. 1.3 million guardsmen (and that's counting PDF). Note that Armageddon is a Hive World with a 50 million annual draft (per 5th rulebook).

I would, personally, submit that there is some inconstancy in the numbers as presented betwixt and between Codex Armageddon and the 5th edition book. While we're at it, for a planetary conquest 4 million is rather silly since even Earth has well over 6 billion people. But then, a defense of 1.3 million is also equally silly since supposedly the guard should be drafting well in excess of that every day if their numbers are to be believed.

I would, to argue numbers, posit the question to you. Do you believe Orks reproduce via their spore method at *least* as functionally as humans do? (this seems silly, as basic logic would dictate they would spawn much, much faster and more efficiently). If you can accept that (and the spore stuff has multiple references on how it works and rough ideas of the number of orks generated) we should accept that on pretty much every world they occupy the Orks should have managed a population at *least* comprable to present day Earth, which would be approx 6 Billion Orks...all of which are born with full knowledge of Ork combat skills and tactics (simplistic though they be). Numbers like that, in my opinion, start to easily seem to dwarf the possibility of the Imp Guard even if you're only paying attention to the 5th edition rulebook and working out the vague number of Ork worlds they discuss.

Is that a reasonable arguement for Ork numbers? If not please let me know where it falls flat and I'll try to clarify/reword it.

@ thor665:

Yes id did restrict guard to 5k per regiment, where the IG codex stated 120.000 strong regiments as possibility.
Also reduced SM to "battle strength", not assumed "more than 1000 ".

Maybe not a good base, but friendly to our ork debate-partners.

On the other side, worked out ork numbers with the estimated 3k per horde, not the mentioned 600-3000.
Dropped the lower numbers for several types of ork formations too and generalized them to 3k.

Handed them an advantage.

But still, armageddon is a stalemate.

The whole concept of outproducing the imperium wont work.
Orks are bound to the planet , whilst the imperium reinforces the planet per space travel.



Orks want to win per higher rate of new recruts?
Do not forget orkz start as ferals. Can't resist to fight amongst themselves.
Ignore both factors and orks should have overrun the galaxy long ago.
But they didn't.
Because losses count.


Numbers from codices or BRB or fluff are fine. Extrapolated numbers are not.

Would be no problem to claim hundreds of vortex missiles for the imperium. Now, one salvo and any ork candidate to lead them united
is sucked into the warp and therefore unavailable.

See, easy produced argument.

Silly?
yes.
As silly as standing cramped together when weapons of mass destruction are at hand. But this is typical GW illustration.

What I think is funny, is that people keep on talking about how the Orks can't win since they can't unify; that they will quickly devolve into an orgy of violence that will destroy their resolve and/or their ability to fight the imperium.

Two words: The Horus Heresy.

Half of the Imperium's forces went rouge and engaged in a massive, bloody civil war which broke the back of humanity's great expansion. Daily, entire planets fall to the ruinous powers, and it is barely all the imperium can to to prevent Chaos from overruning them.

Now, I know people are going to say that this isn't fair, since I'm involving chaos, but it isn't fair to paint humanity as this big, monolithic, single-minded engine of war when they are just as bad at backstabbing each other as Orks; worse in many cases, since at least it is easy for an Ork to know that one of his Nobz is trying a coup, while an imperial commander might be on the cusp of victory, then, *oh snap!* his advisior as a slave to chaos and now opened a portal to the warp that is consuming them all!

Humans falling to chaos is as important a facet of humanity as Orks fighting amoungst themselves. Unless humanity can suddenly say, "ok, we're uncorruptable now!" putting that many different commanders, armies, philoshiphies, and goals and desires together is going to cause a lot of backstabbing and civil wars, chaos influenced or not. It's simpler for the Orks; kill everything not Ork untill there isn't anything not Orky to kill, then hit your friend.

tl;dr:

If you wish to portray humanity as a single minded entity in the war against Orks, while removing their weakness to fight amoungst each other for political power or chaotic influence, you've got to portray the Orks as being a single minded entity that will not backstab each other either; at least, untill the jobs done.

Remember kids: it says in the main rulebook that "if Orks all united, they could crush all opposistion" easily- that includes eldar, necrons, tau (lol, like that would be a problem for anybody ), and 'nids.

So, you can have your implausible "Imperium Undivided" if Orks get an implausible "Waaagh! Undivided" .

@Mekniakal--shenanigans!

In ten thousand years, the Imperium has suffered two schisms: the Horus Heresy and the Age of Apostasy. (The orks experience more division than that in each passing moment.) Now imagine, as we are for the purposes of this discussion, that the Imperium did have to deal with any threat but the Orks. So much more time and resources would be spent on drilling the Imperial propaganda-religion into the heads of every human being that the Imperium would be even more monolithic than it is in the existing fluff. So, to all of this balderdash about "implausible Imperium Undivided" I respond with a resolute "Poppycock!"

How about instead of useless green apes, we have the noble gretchin race finally united, and engaging in a constant state of revolution against both the orkish bourgeois and the human scum that are enslaved by some sort of... uh... big, gold, dead chair.

The Big Gold Chair (remind me to suggest that as a Dakka abbreviation) demands your obedience!

Orkeosaurus, I like the cut of your class-envying jib. How can I subscribe to your newsletter?

Orkeosaurus wrote:How about instead of useless green apes, we have the noble gretchin race finally united, and engaging in a constant state of revolution against both the orkish bourgeois and the human scum that are enslaved by some sort of... uh... big, gold, dead chair.

Rise of the gretchin is a nice idea.

But sorry, chairs are never alive

Our emperor still is with us.
And could fill the gap of the missing brainboyz.

Oh, we won.

All hail the Emporer of the galaxy.
Master of mankind and all thats green.

No unification!?!?!?

" I'm da hand of Gork and Mork. Dey sent me to rouse up da boyz to crush and kill 'cos da boyz forgot what dere 'ere for.
I' da profit of the waaagh 'an whole worlds burn in my boot prints." -Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka

Ghazghkull is all we need!

"I lost two wars. Gork and Mork don't exist!" --Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka

There's some change you can believe in.

The gretchin will destroy your chairs and/or people who sit in them, and create a golden new of age of freedom and equal heights!

Also, if the Emperor is so smart why did he get beat up?

According to Ork kultur Ghazghkull did not lose

ChaoticOrkz wrote:According to Ork kultur Ghazghkull did not lose

Ork + kultur

Is he still enjoying the attention of a BT crusade and a old black clad man with a claw?

@Corpsesarefun: Remember, that was an INVASION of armageddon. The orks only outnumbered the armed imperial forces. If you start counting civies, Imperium wins the pop race hands down.

@Manchu: lol! QFT!

Err.....if the Imperium fought the Orks then i think it would be a great time to strike for CSM and the traitor guards.

Your talking about humans having morale and stuff, but there HUMAN, that means a glory wanting commander will put the Imperium and his men in danger to get the glory. An example would be in "Legion" he was going to attack the Alpha legion and destroy two primarchs and half a legion by bombarment cause he didnt get the glory.

Yarrik...A thousand times worse than you in-laws...DUN DUn DUNNNNNN!

Well, bearing in mind the Imperium has the full force of;

Ordo Xenos, Deathwatch, Alien Hunters
Ordo Mallus, Deamon Hunters
Ordo Hereticus, Witch Hunters, Sisters of Battle
Adeptas Arbites, Local world law enforcement
Adeptas Astartes, Space Marines
Adeptas Mechanicus, The Machine Cult, and their Titans
Imperial Guard
The Ecclesiarchy, The Church
The Emperor himself

I don't think they have a chance, you don't think if the entire orc army was assaulting Terra that he wouldn't be woken up?

Im sure he's a powerful enough Psyker that he doesn't even need to leave his throne, He could just fight like Ravenor, but with a greater force.

Orkeosaurus wrote:The gretchin will destroy your chairs and/or people who sit in them, and create a golden new of age of freedom and equal heights!

Also, if the Emperor is so smart why did he get beat up?

Can't beat the emp.
he sacrified his health in an attempt to save his son.

Equal heights = gretchin and ratlings ally ?

More like he tripped and fell and blamed his dead son for it.

Free your minds, sheeple! You punks got bullets in ya heads!

Xav wrote:Err.....if the Imperium fought the Orks then i think it would be a great time to strike for CSM and the traitor guards.

Nuaghty Nuaghty
This is one on one, Xav. And as it is the Imperium seems to be holding its own against the whole humieverse.

1hadhq wrote:

ChaoticOrkz wrote:According to Ork kultur Ghazghkull did not lose

Ork + kultur

Is he still enjoying the attention of a BT crusade and a old black clad man with a claw?

Well, If the big G took out a squadron of baneblades and Yarrick before, he shouldn't have too much trouble taking them on while he conquers the rest of the sector

before the imperium there were orks, and after the imperium is gone there will still be orks

in the grand scheme of things, green is best

Huffy wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

ChaoticOrkz wrote:According to Ork kultur Ghazghkull did not lose

Ork + kultur

Is he still enjoying the attention of a BT crusade and a old black clad man with a claw?

Well, If the big G took out a squadron of baneblades and Yarrick before, he shouldn't have too much trouble taking them on while he conquers the rest of the sector

Must be a very silent conquest.
Not heard of him for years.
Maybe hes only a ork-myth?

Manchu wrote:@Mekniakal--shenanigans!

In ten thousand years, the Imperium has suffered two schisms: the Horus Heresy and the Age of Apostasy. (The orks experience more division than that in each passing moment.)

I would point out that this should read that humanity has suffered two *major* schisms. If you count every Ork debacle then one should equally count every planetary governor who falls to Chaos - which seems to happen quite regularly in lots of fiction.

1hadhq wrote:@ thor665:

Yes id did restrict guard to 5k per regiment, where the IG codex stated 120.000 strong regiments as possibility.
Also reduced SM to "battle strength", not assumed "more than 1000 ".

Theoretically there's no such thing as a space marine chapter with "more then a 1000" excepting perhaps Space Wolves or some other non-Codex compliant chapter.

1hadhq wrote:
On the other side, worked out ork numbers with the estimated 3k per horde, not the mentioned 600-3000.
Dropped the lower numbers for several types of ork formations too and generalized them to 3k.

Handed them an advantage.

But still, armageddon is a stalemate.

I will note I agreed with you about the numbers at Armageddon - I didn't argue them at all. i simply pointed out some inconsistencies between them and the 5th Core Rulebook. I'm not really sure what you're arguing with me here...could you restate what you're getting at with some of this because I'm too dumb to follow.

1hadhq wrote:
The whole concept of outproducing the imperium wont work.
Orks are bound to the planet , whilst the imperium reinforces the planet per space travel.

From the Armageddon stuff you quoted (heck, by the sheer fact we're talking Armageddon) I'm going to presume your idea of claiming Orks lack the ability for interplanetary travel is just an obvious bit of silliness.

1hadhq wrote:
Orks want to win per higher rate of new recruts?
Do not forget orkz start as ferals. Can't resist to fight amongst themselves.
Ignore both factors and orks should have overrun the galaxy long ago.
But they didn't.
Because losses count.

So you're agreeing that the only reason the Orks haven't overrun the galaxy is because they start at a low tech level and have a lot of infighting...but you strongly disagree that they outproduce humans and (I suspect) disagree that they have better technology. Again sir, I'm not sure what you're getting at, it feels to me like you're debating in circles but maybe I'm just being dumb. Could you clarify this for me?

1hadhq wrote:
Numbers from codices or BRB or fluff are fine. Extrapolated numbers are not.

Unfortunately the fluff doesn't give any numbers for how many Orks occupy a planet. Neither have they given numbers for Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, or any other race save humans. Yet, we can extrapolate that Eldar don't have a lot of population from information given in books, and we can likewise extrapolate that the Ork population is immensely superior to that of humanity. I understand you want a hard number, but that number doesn't exist (as I've admitted) but can be easily shown to be extrapolated as much *much* larger then the human population (also, as I and others have shown in some previous postings). If you have specific issues with how we extrapolated then please tell me what those issues are and I can explain further.

Also, in the nature of exact numbers some of my earlier discussions about the numbers at Armageddon (1.3 million Guardsmen for a planet that's tithed 50 million a year) was to point out how GW's hard numbers are, to a large extent, quite unreliable.

I believe as long as the almighty Ghazgkull is around the orks will win. Hes really the only one who is able to rally a large enough amount of orks to stand a chance against the imperium. Now I dont think Ghazgkull is what makes them so deadly, since without ghazgkull they would just follow the next biggest ork lol, but hes the only one that brings the un godly numbered hordes.

I would note, in the grand scheme Ghaz is more of an Imperial bogeyman then a true Ork leader of note. The Arch Despot and Arch Arsonist have both had substantially more success versus the Imperium then ol' Ghazzy (though I will note Ghaz is very good at keeping a lot of constant wars going, which the Orks are pretty stoked about)

Thor665 wrote:I would point out that this should read that humanity has suffered two *major* schisms. If you count every Ork debacle then one should equally count every planetary governor who falls to Chaos - which seems to happen quite regularly in lots of fiction.

This only seems like a fair point. First of all, 99% of what BL puts out is from the Imperial POV. Secondly, a good chunk of that (even HH series aside) is about the Imperium fighting itself. Third, the governors you are talking about actually have something to rebel against. Division is a racial characteristic of the Orks. You can count on one hand the *major* schisms of the Empire. You can count on your other hand the *major* unifications of the Orks.

Orks are dumb but they know if they unite there get alot more fighting then they would fighing each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orks are dumb but they know if they unite there get alot more fighting then they would fighing each other.

Ah! What I was looking for.

Codex: Orks, 3rd Edition, Page 2 wrote:Orks are the most widespread and warlike race of aliens in the bloodstained galaxy of the 41st millennium. From the depths of the core to the distant ghost stars beyond the galactic rim burgeoning Ork empires rise and fall. In terms of sheer numbers and planets Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However the Orks' passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves and any Ork leader worth his followers' respect would never dream of voluntarily following another.

So, there you have it. The orks hold more planets and have a greater population than humanity. They would destroy humanity if unified. They're never going to unite, as a race, without some very extreme circumstance.

@Manchu

A reasonable rejoinder, but I think my logic holds and is not duplicitous in any way shape or form. You seemed to be implying that Orks have a lack of cohesion and lots of infighting and then mentioned the Imperium had only two. I was attempting to put into perspective the level of Ork infighting, Orks as a whole have never had any great schism, they just have lots of localized brawling to keep the lads in fighting trim.

I suppose one happens to then have to dictate what constitutes a major unification for the Orks. I presume you don't mean any given Waagh, since those happen quite frequently. The only other major unifications I can think of are the ones described in fluff after Eye of Terror that tend to lead to great expansion of Ork empires and the crushing of whole sectors under an unassailable green tide. These "super Waaghs" (I think fluff calls them Waa-orks...which seems stupid to me) are usually signaled by the creation of vast fleets of Gargants.

However, they say those happen every thousand years or so - which would be far more then one hand's worth of occurrences in the course of Ork history (much less Imperial history).

I can't think of any unification bigger then those, which is a good thing as then the Orks would probably be a threat that all of the races would need to start uniting against in order to survive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Ah! What I was looking for.

Codex: Orks, 3rd Edition, Page 2 wrote:Orks are the most widespread and warlike race of aliens in the bloodstained galaxy of the 41st millennium. From the depths of the core to the distant ghost stars beyond the galactic rim burgeoning Ork empires rise and fall. In terms of sheer numbers and planets Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However the Orks' passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves and any Ork leader worth his followers' respect would never dream of voluntarily following another.

So, there you have it. The orks hold more planets and have a greater population than humanity. They would destroy humanity if unified. They're never going to unite, as a race, without some very extreme circumstance.

Good find Orkeosaurus! It's funny, I'd flipped through my 3rd ed book too looking for something like that to help argue the Ork populace question, and had missed it (my fault for trusting GW to have it in the fluff section in back). I'd settled for having to debate using that stupid green glob galaxy map in the core 5th book with the whole blather about 'planets per sub-quadrant.' You are officially my hero till I find something cooler online to eclipse you (with the Web being what it is this usualy takes about five minutes, but hey, revel in it anyway).

Hopefully we can move beyond the 'who has greater numbers' aspect of the debate (which to my mind is unquestionable) and get to the heart of the matter - which is tactics, unity, and training vs. idiot savant brilliance, vast unaligned numbers, and genetically bred warrior skills.

Yay! I'm a hero!

@Thor665

I wasn't implying deception, only that the argument was merely superficially convincing. What I mean is: where is the great Ork Imperium that controls almost all of the galaxy?

I would answer with the rejoinder - they control huge swaths of this galaxy and others and they managed it without any sort of central organization because, on an individual level, all Orks intrinsically understand war, conquest, occupation, and killing things that aren't Orks...or that are Orks and look at them funny.

I suppose we could debate which might be better in a war effort versus the other, but for sheer results of owning planets they do seem to be doing just fine without a central organization.

Without a central organization I do presume you agree with me that Humanity would be in all sorts of "acck, we are dying" disarray. They need that organization, thus they developed it. The Orks don't and are doing fine.

Edit: Also, to be frank, I don't think I can agree with the claim 'almost all of the galaxy' anymore. Even with those gawdawful maps in the 5th edition book it's pretty clear that there are large chunks of the galaxy that the Imperium is, at best, a vague presence in.

Thor665 wrote:Without a central organization I do presume you agree with me that Humanity would be in all sorts of "acck, we are dying" disarray. They need that organization, thus they developed it. The Orks don't and are doing fine.

Agreed.

We're getting back to the problem of Orks and the Imperium having different standards of success.

Well to conclude i think we should agree on:

1.The Orks if ever united could destroy the Galaxy but alas that could never happen so the Imperium could use there disorder to push them back to the fringes of the Mily way, which is in a sense victory for Imperium.

2.I doubt the Orks would care about being pushed back as longas they have a good fight doing it, while the Imperium could push them back they could never acheive a full exstermination, which is in a way a victory for the Orks.

3.Even though the Orks are pushed back they would reapear and wage war on the Imperium but with not much succes taking planets then being pushed back by some guard.

4. There are some area's of space that the Imperium just couldnt push the Orks from, and remain there as a small pocket ofresistance like the Enclaves.

5.But i believe one the Imperium falls and it will fall, it may be in hundred years or a million years but the point is i believe the Orks will endure in some form, and in some distant Galaxy.

So to conclude it would end in a nasty draw, with both sides acheives some form of victory, does anyone agree with my conclusion?

Sounds about right.

OK.

ChaoticOrkz wrote:This war could be a never ending cycle.

IF the imperium were to push the orks to the outer limits of the galaxy as you all CLAIM it can than the worlds where orks had fought and died and all the space crafts and vehicles involved in those battles will be littered with spores and more orks will manifest and again the cycle will start anew.

Manchu wrote:Perhaps so. But if it is actually possible, I would contend that the Imperium would find a way to effectively exterminate the Ork race. I just don't think it's actually possible.

That's from page three.

They imperium would probably win, because of their tech and stuff, but that doesn't mean that the orks would be eradicated. There would still probably be uprisings and WAAAAGH!!!'s from time to time.

According to my vast research. I have come to this diagnosis and conclusion.


The Incredible Hulk is an ork.


And the Hulk has not, and never will be defeated.


Therefore the orkz are the victors.

I think uberman has brought us a new topic the answer to all things green, is The Hulk an Ork?


I dont think so because if he was GWlegal ninjas would have sued marvel years ago.

Xav wrote:I think uberman has brought us a new topic the answer to all things green, is The Hulk an Ork?


I dont think so because if he was GWlegal ninjas would have sued marvel years ago.

could be they secretly fear Marvels lawyerfu

Orkeosaurus wrote:Ah! What I was looking for.

Codex: Orks, 3rd Edition, Page 2 wrote:Orks are the most widespread and warlike race of aliens in the bloodstained galaxy of the 41st millennium. From the depths of the core to the distant ghost stars beyond the galactic rim burgeoning Ork empires rise and fall. In terms of sheer numbers and planets Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However the Orks' passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves and any Ork leader worth his followers' respect would never dream of voluntarily following another.

So, there you have it. The orks hold more planets and have a greater population than humanity. They would destroy humanity if unified. They're never going to unite, as a race, without some very extreme circumstance.

Occupy. Not hold. Imperium HOLDS more planets. Is the DOMINANT species in most planets. Some orks hidden in a dank cave with clubs don't HOLD a world, but they do occupy it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to add this. It may take a million bazillion years, and just as many crusades, but it is ENTIRELY possible for Imperium to wipe out orks. While the Imperium has the upper hand, they aren't going to be twiddling thier thumbs. They'll go on the offensive. Something I doubt orks are used to.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Occupy. Not hold. Imperium HOLDS more planets. Is the DOMINANT species in most planets. Some orks hidden in a dank cave with clubs don't HOLD a world, but they do occupy it..

Seriously?

So I'm going to guess since you're arguing semantics now that you do agree that there are more Orks then Humans in the galaxy (much less other ones), correct?

But now you want to debate "hold" and "occupy"? So let me then ask you this; since Orkeosaurus presented information that talks about how Orks "occupy" more worlds and have a larger population how about, since you claim the Imperium "holds" planets you provide a quoted source from fluff that uses that language (even better would be one that defines how holding is superior to occupying).

As an added bonus, below please find some definitions for occupy, I put a happy Ork face next to the definitions that suggest occupy can be used exactly like hold (and, in fact, is a much stronger word to suggest dominance FYI) I put a little Imperium sign next to the ones that support your apparent semantic argument.

# busy: keep busy with
# live (in a certain place) (generally speaking if we're living there, at the very least I don't think the Imperium "holds" it)
# occupy the whole of
# concern: be on the mind of
# invade: march aggressively into another's territory by military force for the purposes of conquest and occupation
# take: require (time or space) (you can't hold it if we take it)
# absorb: consume all of one's attention or time
# fill: assume, as of positions or roles

My apologies for the late reply.

It may not fit into the actual debate, but i think aimed questions/posts should be answered so ignore this if youre not interested or
not thor665.

Thor665 wrote:
Theoretically there's no such thing as a space marine chapter with "more then a 1000" excepting perhaps Space Wolves or some other
I will note I agreed with you about the numbers at Armageddon - I didn't argue them at all. i simply pointed out some inconsistencies between them and the 5th Core Rulebook. I'm not really sure what you're arguing with me here...could you restate what you're getting at with some of this because I'm too dumb to follow.

There are some threads about the size of space marine chapters. One at B&C provided reliable proof to estimate the possible maximum size over 1000, but its was also agreed that chapters are never at full strength, so the 1k from GW is ok.

Tried to get the process leading me to the numbers i have used from C: armageddon as clear as possible.
I could resist to this next time, promise.

Thor665 wrote:
From the Armageddon stuff you quoted (heck, by the sheer fact we're talking Armageddon) I'm going to presume your idea of claiming Orks lack the ability for interplanetary travel is just an obvious bit of silliness.

I dispute the ability of the orks to reinforce with planned forces and material, additionally it seems the imperium is good at claiming air superiority in almost every battlezone.
So orks just use what they find.
The imperium will replenenish what is needed.
I see this as an advantage.

Thor665 wrote:
So you're agreeing that the only reason the Orks haven't overrun the galaxy is because they start at a low tech level and have a lot of infighting...but you strongly disagree that they outproduce humans and (I suspect) disagree that they have better technology. Again sir, I'm not sure what you're getting at, it feels to me like you're debating in circles but maybe I'm just being dumb. Could you clarify this for me?

i hope i dont run in circles...

I disagree on "outproduce", since orks lioke to loot things.
To do so, you need someone else to produce these things first.
Also an organized forgeworld will easily ashame any number of mekboys. The orks stand no chance to win .
Faulty products wont count the same as good reliable products.
And better? maybe orks remember sometimes old tech, but they do not reproduce it.
The imperium would supply an army with standard tanks. Now if they had plans for better tanks, they would produce the same amount but better tanks.
Orks will always produce single efforts. One great vehicle. Next one could be total crap.

Obvious win for mankind.

Thor665 wrote:
Unfortunately the fluff doesn't give any numbers for how many Orks occupy a planet. Neither have they given numbers for Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, or any other race save humans. Yet, we can extrapolate that Eldar don't have a lot of population from information given in books, and we can likewise extrapolate that the Ork population is immensely superior to that of humanity. I understand you want a hard number, but that number doesn't exist (as I've admitted) but can be easily shown to be extrapolated as much *much* larger then the human population (also, as I and others have shown in some previous postings). If you have specific issues with how we extrapolated then please tell me what those issues are and I can explain further.

Also, in the nature of exact numbers some of my earlier discussions about the numbers at Armageddon (1.3 million Guardsmen for a planet that's tithed 50 million a year) was to point out how GW's hard numbers are, to a large extent, quite unreliable.

GW supplys numbers.
For tau. I have quoted them to the tau fanboyz. Got totally ignored, because reading their own codex would set their numbers not where they wanted them. So we had the usual " billions of gazillions of tau".

So quoting codices may not work.

Why did i say "to extrapolate" is bad?
-you need hard numbers, because multipliers screw your result if one or more of them are false.
-fluff in codices always promotes the army. Another codex may contradict.
-using logic in a sci fi environment. Fast path to fall on your nose. GW ignores my/your/our logic completely.
-not using all factors. ork produce spores. normally, creatures produce a lot of spores ( or eggs or whatever) if most of them doesnt make it. So 1 new ork per spore is what you need for fantastillions of orks, but still wrong.

If youre argument is GW cant provide such hard facts, then i have to suggest to not extrapolate.
i still don't see how a little sentence in an ork codex about the green super tide should give anyone a base for any numbers.



Ps: i like Xavs "conclusion", some posts ago.

Well the rulebook say's "Should all of the Ork's unite the galaxy will be in a green wave", I think nid's are bigger on the number scales but it say's Ork's are the most populated Xenos threat.

1hadhq wrote:It may not fit into the actual debate, but i think aimed questions/posts should be answered so ignore this if youre not interested or
not thor665.

Ouch

I'll skip some of your other clarifications, though I will note I do feel Mekboyz are a solid competition to Imperial forge worlds. Yeah, our junk is inferior, but lots of Mekboyz can make it and they aren't reliant on old automated machines to do most of the production either. I think that's a strong advantage for the Orks.

1hadhq wrote:
GW supplys numbers.
For tau. I have quoted them to the tau fanboyz. Got totally ignored, because reading their own codex would set their numbers not where they wanted them. So we had the usual " billions of gazillions of tau".

So quoting codices may not work.

Why did i say "to extrapolate" is bad?
-you need hard numbers, because multipliers screw your result if one or more of them are false.
-fluff in codices always promotes the army. Another codex may contradict.
-using logic in a sci fi environment. Fast path to fall on your nose. GW ignores my/your/our logic completely.
-not using all factors. ork produce spores. normally, creatures produce a lot of spores ( or eggs or whatever) if most of them doesnt make it. So 1 new ork per spore is what you need for fantastillions of orks, but still wrong.

If youre argument is GW cant provide such hard facts, then i have to suggest to not extrapolate.
i still don't see how a little sentence in an ork codex about the green super tide should give anyone a base for any numbers.

My argument isn't that they can't, it's that they don't. Other then humanity I would challenge you to go to the 5th Core Rulebook and tell me the numbers for any race - I don't think they're in there in the way humanity's are. But, to move beyond that, I would reference you back about a page or two to a quote found by Orkeosaurus from the 3rd ed. Ork Codex which explicitly describes Orks as the most widespread race and how they occupy more worlds then any other race (page 2 of the Codex)

Again I will state for the third time, my issue with the numbers as presented in Armageddon should be quite clear as to why I think they are off. Though you continue to act like I'm whining about how they were compiled, which I'm not. Again I shall state, don't you think it strange that a world that's tithed 50 million guardsmen a *year* (source 5th core rulebook) had a standing force of guardsmen + PDF of 1.3 million? Heck, call it 8 million and it still sounds silly. That is the beginning and the end of the issue I have with the Armageddon numbers and why I suggest that now in 5th those numbers are spurious.

I'll offer up another quote for the "Imperium has more people/planets then the Orks" crowd. From the 5th edition rulebook, pg. 114 "...human worlds represent only a tiny proportion of the stellar systems in the galaxy."

If you combine that with other quoted information about how the Orks occupy the most planets in this galaxy *and* occupy huge swaths of other galaxies it seems, to me, to be a clear no brainer that Orks have vastly superior numbers to the Imperium. This is, by no means, a cut and dry proof that Orks can beat the Imperium, but what I'm trying to show is the argument that the Imperium somehow has more Imperial Guard, or even populace, then the Orks is clearly showable as just not true according to fluff.

Thor665 wrote:
My argument isn't that they can't, it's that they don't. Other then humanity I would challenge you to go to the 5th Core Rulebook and tell me the numbers for any race - I don't think they're in there in the way humanity's are. But, to move beyond that, I would reference you back about a page or two to a quote found by Orkeosaurus from the 3rd ed. Ork Codex which explicitly describes Orks as the most widespread race and how they occupy more worlds then any other race (page 2 of the Codex)

Page 2 of any codex is pure propaganda.
As said before, if we believe GW's first pages in any codex, anyones army would own the galaxy.
rather impossible, isn't it?

So beeing more widespread shall give you superior numbers?
...canadians are more widespread than germans. Do we have now more canadians or germans?

or to occupy more worlds.
Doesn't mean anything if your occupants are only a few lonely barbarians...

To your challenge:
The BRB has starmaps for tau, orks, eldar...
with some hints about the population of those worlds on these maps.

Maybe the orks explain me their map and i explain ours?

Thor665 wrote:
Again I will state for the third time, my issue with the numbers as presented in Armageddon should be quite clear as to why I think they are off. Though you continue to act like I'm whining about how they were compiled, which I'm not. Again I shall state, don't you think it strange that a world that's tithed 50 million guardsmen a *year* (source 5th core rulebook) had a standing force of guardsmen + PDF of 1.3 million? Heck, call it 8 million and it still sounds silly. That is the beginning and the end of the issue I have with the Armageddon numbers and why I suggest that now in 5th those numbers are spurious.

Maybe a campaign book is a better choice for objective numbers than a race specific codex?
But i agree GW is always silly.

Thor665 wrote:
I'll offer up another quote for the "Imperium has more people/planets then the Orks" crowd. From the 5th edition rulebook, pg. 114 "...human worlds represent only a tiny proportion of the stellar systems in the galaxy."

See, quality wins over quantity.

Also 5th ed rulebook tells us that even the munitorum doesnt know how many soldiers the imperial guard has.
Still mentions millions of regiments.
Now, since youre asking for it, i just apply the valahallan size ( 120.000 ) to those regiments.
result = 120.000.000.000. ( with 1 million regiments. )
only guardsmen, no citizens.

Going for the IG recrutement map:
- 11x 50 M
-26x 5 M
maybe about 700.000.000 new guardsmen each year.

Oh and 3288 x 100000 arent enough hive worlds.
Sorry, were sooo outnumbered.
Could we think about 3238x10000hive worlds x estimated 100.000.000.000 humans per hive world and not be impressed?

So given numbers ( recruts) are more reliable than estimated size from fluff ( millions of regiments).
Goes for all of us, even orks.

Thor665 wrote:
If you combine that with other quoted information about how the Orks occupy the most planets in this galaxy *and* occupy huge swaths of other galaxies it seems, to me, to be a clear no brainer that Orks have vastly superior numbers to the Imperium. This is, by no means, a cut and dry proof that Orks can beat the Imperium, but what I'm trying to show is the argument that the Imperium somehow has more Imperial Guard, or even populace, then the Orks is clearly showable as just not true according to fluff.

I think i did provide the size of the imperium, without using the promotional pages in any codex.
Rest assured i do not doubt that our ork supportes here believe in their fluff.
But its still impossible to present numbers for orks to compare both races and decide it.

Hint: imperium = X vs orks = ?

What's with the fanbois trying to act like what I posted doesn't count for some reason?

Face it, it says explicitly that orks outnumber everyone and would destroy everyone if unified, pretending like that's not the truth is just covering your ears because you have no rebuttal.

To say that "In terms of sheer numbers and planets Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However the Orks' passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves and any Ork leader worth his followers' respect would never dream of voluntarily following another" is hyperbole is laughable. It gives specific strengths which are then hugely negated by specific weaknesses. "Propaganda" my ass.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Face it, it says explicitly that orks outnumber everyone and would destroy everyone if unified, pretending like that's not the truth is just covering your ears because you have no rebuttal.

Good.

Lets face:

-the nid fan claims he eats the whole galaxy. Would this become untrue because orks outnumber everything?
-the cron fan claims he won the galaxy before. As orks were unified against them back in the day, would this become untrue since orks are everywhere and cannot lose?
-the chaos fan claims his chaotic chaos wins through immortality and more spikes. Would this become untrue because codex orks
insists orks defeat anyone?
-the tau fan claims the greater good will prevail. Would this become untrue because the orks otunumber them and ignore the greater good?

Is it acceptable to accept that all of us are entitled to win?



BTW, orks would destroy everyone if unified includes orks, right?
->selfdestruction makes winning impossible.

Reminds me of the old "nuclear war" game... and its "winner" jumping and screaming: i won on that empty ruined planet....
may exchange the politician for an ork then

1hadhq wrote:Page 2 of any codex is pure propaganda.
As said before, if we believe GW's first pages in any codex, anyones army would own the galaxy.
rather impossible, isn't it?

Okay, so the fluff on page 2 of my DE codex that says they're not nice shouldn't be believed either? What fluff are you willing to accept? No, page 2 has in all of the codices a completely reasonable summary of what the race is about. I'll agree they are written up to express the relative danger/coolness of the race, but they are not any more or less worthy of consideration then any other piece of fluff. It might help, if you wish to rule out fluff, that you maybe tell us what are accepted sources of fluff for this debate before we go any further.

1hadhq wrote:So beeing more widespread shall give you superior numbers?
...canadians are more widespread than germans. Do we have now more canadians or germans?

If Canadians "in terms of sheer numbers and planets outnumbered every other race in the galaxy" then...yes, I would say they outnumber Germans.

1hadhq wrote:
Doesn't mean anything if your occupants are only a few lonely barbarians...

By the sheer nature of Ork reproduction it goes without saying that this is not the case. ...that does of course presume you accept the fluff about Ork reproduction, maybe you don't.

1hadhq wrote:To your challenge:
The BRB has starmaps for tau, orks, eldar...
with some hints about the population of those worlds on these maps.

Maybe the orks explain me their map and i explain ours?

I can't tell if you're being silly or intentionally obtuse. A tau map that informs us an area has "population density: medium" without any explanation as to what density medium means is as equally useless as the Ork map that informs us how many worlds they occupy (which we do have) but with no idea how many Orks occupy any given world. As I said, the only one with numbers is the Imperium. Tell you what, you explain how GW handles sub-quadrants and I'll try to suss out how many Orks can dance on the head of a pin.

1hadhq wrote:

Thor665 wrote:
I'll offer up another quote for the "Imperium has more people/planets then the Orks" crowd. From the 5th edition rulebook, pg. 114 "...human worlds represent only a tiny proportion of the stellar systems in the galaxy."

See, quality wins over quantity.

...are you agreeing that Orks have more quantity here? I thought your argument was that they don't?

1hadhq wrote:
I think i did provide the size of the imperium, without using the promotional pages in any codex.
Rest assured i do not doubt that our ork supportes here believe in their fluff.
But its still impossible to present numbers for orks to compare both races and decide it.

Hint: imperium = X vs orks = ?

But yet it shouldn't be impossible for the very clear logic that Orks outnumber humans to shine through, and yet seemingly it is.


Edit: Also, I have around me my DE Codex, my Space Wolves Codex, my Ork Codices, the necron Codex and an Eldar Codex. Looking over Page 2 in the summaries of each of these armies I see no information that leaps out at me as untrue to the nature of the army/race or a guranteed win vs. anything (except Orks if they unite their untold numbers). Out of curiosity if you could perhaps quote some page 2 fluff that you consider unreasonable propaganda other then the Ork one I would appreciate it.

Okay, so we know that orks outnumbers Imperium. (whether citizens are included in this count I don't know)
We know that IF orks ever totally united, they would pawn.
But they CAN'T.
Only to some degree, (aka Wussy Ghazgkhull)
But nothing NEAR the unification needed to take on and defeat the Imperium.

The orks will spawn with all the genetic traits of the fallen ork. They are born knowing only how to fight.

And the waaagh!!!! will grow if you don't get them flamers in quick.

So what use is a scorched eaqrth policy if the land you burn is of no use to you for years afterwards.

This argument will go on longer than the imperium.

But the Imperium will go on longer than the orks! LOL!

Ok

I tend to read the whole paragraph, so i wont buy your "we win because we unite, even if our fluff disagrees with us uniting" argument.


But i wouldn't rule out any source, since you need your single line in codex orks as one and only argument.
Sorry, should have seen that orks are less supported and can't quote much.


So you cant extract numbers from any source. Bad for you.
Could this mean its not possible to claim any size?
Again, my mistake.
If youre capable of "winning" whilst getting routed, youre also capable of dishing out numbers any size youre happy with.

Next point.

brougth forth examples why ork fluff doesnt trump other fluff or vice versa.
Seems i created a mess.
Wasn't meant to read the fluff being untrue, but the fluff often beeing incompatible with other codices.
Example: Tau - SM - BT. Tau still believe they win. 2 other codices say Tau get beaten. Multiple realities ?


So i see, my point stays my point and can't find its way to you.
Could argue back and forth here.
If you ever find something to base the numbers mentioned in this thread on, post it.
Really. Facts are welcome.


Until then, good night.

I think the Orks could destroy the Galaxy if united and the Nids could eat the Galaxy and the Necrons could turn everyone into lumps of metal, and the Imperium is the greatest military fighting force, and the Chaos could cover galaxy in Demons, etc.

You see all these things are true its just that they all counter themselves.
So its balanced, if a race was removed from the mix then it would make it unbalanced and the Galaxy would plunge into Chaos.

We don't know by how much orks outnumber imperium (again, civies not included). It may be but a fraction. There is no fluff to say that there are trillions of orks or that there is only 1 more ork than there are humans. So please, stop making up number.

Also, quit it with the hyperbole about orks ruling other galaxies and the SMALLEST size orks are nobs. Just don't.

Emperors Faithful wrote:We don't know by how much orks outnumber imperium (again, civies not included). It may be but a fraction. There is no fluff to say that there are trillions of orks or that there is only 1 more ork than there are humans. So please, stop making up number.

Also, quit it with the hyperbole about orks ruling other galaxies and the SMALLEST size orks are nobs. Just don't.

CIVILLIANS ARE IN-FETHING-CLUDED!

orks dont outnumber the imperium, they outnumber the entire human race!

orks ARE in other galaxies

there ARE sectors where there are orks the size of nobs as a minimum (the ghoul stars is an example)

quit being a bloody fanboy and accept what codices and various other posters have proven!

/end rage

1hadhq wrote:-the nid fan claims he eats the whole galaxy. Would this become untrue because orks outnumber everything?

No, because the orks aren't united, and they could only really push back the Hive Fleets if they worked in concert.

-the cron fan claims he won the galaxy before. As orks were unified against them back in the day, would this become untrue since orks are everywhere and cannot lose?

I don't recall hearing that the orks were unified against the necrons in the past, but regardless it's been tens of thousands of years since they fell asleep.

-the chaos fan claims his chaotic chaos wins through immortality and more spikes. Would this become untrue because codex orks
insists orks defeat anyone?

Once again, only when united would they destroy everyone, and it's pretty unlikely that "all opposition" is reffering to daemons of the warp anyways. They live in a different universe, they can't be opposition unless they've been summoned.

-the tau fan claims the greater good will prevail. Would this become untrue because the orks otunumber them and ignore the greater good?

"The Greater Good will prevail" is rhetoric, not fluff.

Is it acceptable to accept that all of us are entitled to win?

Everyone can't win at the same time. However, every race has some manner in which they could win:

The Imperium could have the Emperor be reborn and lead mankind to a new golden age, restarting the Great Crusade to claim the rest of the galaxy, and banishing Chaos to the dark corners of the universe with reason and understanding.

The Tyranids could come into the Milky Way in full force, and devour the galaxy with their overwhelming numbers, near-perfect unification, and absolute method of attack.

The Necrons could awaken in force, with the C'Tan united, and kill every other race in existence.

The Eldar couldn't actually take over the galaxy, but by awakening Ynnead they could save their souls and their race from Slaanesh.

The Tau could eventually progress technologically and through conquest of other races enough to rule the galaxy, although that's very far off for them.

Chaos could cause the Imperium to collapse, destroy the Emperor, and plunge the galaxy into a darkness and madness.

The Orks could finally unite under one banner. That is their trump card, and it's a lot less likely to happen than what pretty much every other race has.

BTW, orks would destroy everyone if unified includes orks, right?

No, that would make no sense. By that logic the Space Marines can't be the Emerpor's finest troops because that would make them better than themselves. It's silly, and it's not the way English is used.

(Besides, the passage technically says "crush all opposition", not destroy everyone.)

Alright after glancing through this thread, GET RID OF THE NUMBERS, no one can win, since everyone is using different sets of numbers(and a certain element of fanboyism), do it on tactical and military standpoint, include the fact that the GT is failing, once that happens orks win, no question,

Can the orks blockade many imperial systems at once, certainly, but imperial ships are far better, but they don't have enough to stop say 100-200 blockades at once due to the segmentum structure, so I say orks will win even if its just a few planets at a time

1hadhq wrote:Ok
So you cant extract numbers from any source. Bad for you.
Could this mean its not possible to claim any size?
...
...
Really. Facts are welcome.

Other then Hive worlds can you please give me the exact accounting of how many planets are populated by the Imperium? I would love to know the "facts" of the following (please include annotations of where the information was written);

How many Agri Worlds (and possibly how many planets each feeds)
How many Feudal Worlds?
How many Feral Worlds?
How many Artificial Worlds?
How many Death Worlds?
How many Forge Worlds (and how many of these can create Leman Russ tanks and/or Landraiders)

Clearly if you cannot tell me the hard exact numbers as presented by GW then there may be a lot, but it's even more possible there may only be five or six of each (that's about what it looks like on that totally accurate and all inclusive map on page 138 of the 5th edition rulebook. When you can present these facts to me I will accept that the number of Orks is inconsequential and that you are correct that the Imperium owns Ork face if the battle was one on one and will officially agree that I am a foolish Ork fanboi, put that information in my signature, and include a notation about how you owned me.

If this seems silly to you then I would hope you might try to reasses your strange demands of me for the argument of Ork numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, quit it with the hyperbole about orks ruling other galaxies and the SMALLEST size orks are nobs. Just don't.

You are correct, the posters who claim this are, I do believe, incorrect. However if you note Ork Codex, 3rd edition, pg 48, as written by Genetor Lukas Anzion of the Imperium of Man. He refers to areas populated by Orks the size of Skarboyz (who don't really exist in the current edition). Skarboyz are slightly smaller then a regular Nob but much larger and more deadly then a regular boy. The Imperium lackey postulates with great fear the size of the Skarboy Nobs...