There has been a lot of talk about recasting lately so I thought a poll might be a good idea... I didnt make this multiple choice as it would unbalance the results too much, so choose the single answer that closest matches your opinion, even if you agree with multiple answers. Assume the poll is talking about personal use for all the questions except for 'and ok to sell them' too.

and just a disclaimer: dakka in no way supports recasting in any form. This poll is simply a curiosity to discover people's personal opinions and recasting is quite clearly illegal, even for personal use in most countries of the world.

If significant additions or other modifications are done and you bought the original piece it's derivative work and fair game.

Recasting for personal use is questionable. If no other avenue (i.e. purchasing) exists and you own an original it's understandable but still probably illegal.

Recasting originals for purposes of resale is always stealing.

I think it's okay for OOP miniatures, and components that you can't acquire individually.

I have no problem with recasting just like I have no problem with people trying to homebrew their own favorite beer or spend time making a fake Ferrari.

I also think recasting for profit doesn't hurt GW's sales (since they're so few of them on Ebay in addition that recasting is generally a small scale and time intensive operation resulting in few recasted models on the market) but doing so isn't right in a similar sense that this forum makes money off of GW isn't right since I don't think Dakka pays GW royalties.

Recasting for profit and and trying to pass it off as official stuff is wrong though since thats deception at work.

Individual bits like meltaguns and the like are totally fair game for personal use. If you need A LOT of them you may want to consider buying new bits, or simply making your own (be careful though, you be denied access to some GW tournaments for making your own.). I would recommend buying ALL of your special bits like this anywhere but GW directly just to make sure they hear you, although I doubt they will.

OOP miniatures can be casted if for personal use, or because of simple lack of supply, which would be entailed by being OOP.

Say you have 5 squats and you really want to make an army, but after looking around for a month or so you find out that they are A.) unavailable entirely or B.) simply overpriced beyond rational means, this could apply for lack of money on your part, or simple moral outrage at the people trying to take advantage of you.

Regardless the fact I can't make recasts, I would still buy GW stuff, even if I could make them.
And besides, I think the amount of individuals possessing the professional equipment and knowhow, matching the quality of GW sprues and actually sell them,
is far to small to harm their profit.

I take the stance that its ok to copy it if there is no possible way to get is off of GW.

Other: OK for anything provided:

Not claiming it's your own work
Not selling it
Not damaging the market for the owner

Other;
I would say it is illegal, but so is speeding. If you are willing to do the crime, fine, just dont complain about the penalty if you get caught.

i support recasting.

The Green Git wrote:If significant additions or other modifications are done and you bought the original piece it's derivative work and fair game.

Hmmm, but how does fair use apply to models?

Anyways, I figure for things like meltaguns or Power Klaws it's probably alright, but dosn't seem very easy, and a recast is always subject to being quality inferior to the original.

Never done it but I suppose it would be okay to make weapons like meltaguns that you can't buy individually, not anymore than that though, re-casting a whole model is too obvious and a bit more than just a gun.

The only recasting I would support would be clear casts of Tau stealth suits, and stealth sniper teams. Even then, only if it's a one-for-one cast, and the original is present and painted.

I don't understand what the problem with re-casting for personal use is. It's no different that uploading your CDs to MP3s for you ipod. As long as you're not selling it (or giving away), what's the harm? Once you buy a figure, you own it. You can throw it out, melt it down, cut it up, paint it, paint it badly, how is making a mold of it any different?

I like recasting for the reason that some bitz are just hard (or even impossible) to come by without buying a whole squad, that probably needs it anyway. Tau Seeker misssiles for instance: you get 1 per vehicle, yet each vehicle can take 2. I'd recast them in a heartbeat so i can meet WYSIWG. I don't think it's that different from Greenstuffing your own version. As long as you arent reccasting an entire squad (or if you're digustingly ambitious, a sprue/vehicle) then GW isn't losing any Revenue, really.

I's a n00b, so what is recasting?

I like recasting for weapons melts etc. I also know GW hates it i hate it when folks try to sell them.
I have come across 2 recasts in my travels both in a GW store the First a guy had two Fire prisms and he didn't have the wobbles top and the gun wasn't aiming down. when the red shirt asked how the guy do it he repelled i just built it the red shirt asked if he could look the dude said sure as soon as he lifted the model he could feel it was resin right then and there he asked him to leave the store. A kid had a couple clear cast tau steath suit yeah he got asked to leave to.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:I's a n00b, so what is recasting?

Just for the slow folks...

It is the act of taking an original, pouring some silicon rtv over it, removing the original and then filling the subsequent void with resin/metal to gain an exact (mostly) copy. Yes, I am intimately familiar with the procedures and processes.

Not a technically hard thing to do. A hard thing to do WELL, though. Not always cost-effective, and an unforgiving learning curve.

Some 'recasts' can be told by the existence of two sets of mold lines on the model (a good copy however, is indistinguishable from the original - casting flaws included). Warpage and bubbles* are said to be the 'tells' for resin re-casts. I disagree, they are the tells for BAD resin recasts, and very bad originals.

* Wait. FW have been recasting for years. This is their MO.

I think it is the only real cost effective way of making "destroyed" vehicle terrain features etc... I would not want to waste either lots of money, or one of my vehicles in order to create a burnt out/exploded land raider/rhino/etc, nor would I particularly want to use up precious bits on one.

Thus I might resort to casting for such things. I would also not be too concerned about casting smaller things such as special weapons and (home made) shoulder pads etc...

Anything that has been customised from the GW basic or is in very short supply (and that is not huge/expensive) is ok to cast in my eyes.

So no cloned guardsmen or tanks etc, but cloning some shoulder pads and meltas for them is ok.

chromedog wrote:
* Wait. FW have been recasting for years. This is their MO.

Yeah, they 'recast' the original models and such that they make, and certain other models as well, although they do it production style, and after so many copies the silicon starts to break down so after a while you will end up with a warped part no mater what you do.

The warpage that FW are renowned for is little to do with mold wear and tear (which is reduced by the use of mold release) and more to do with improperly mixed resins and insufficient cure time, which results in any straight bit over 2cm taking on a banana-like bend and other pieces being smaller than required (vehicle hatches and add-ons). Mold wear results more in excess flash and enlarged casts.

The bubbles are proof of a lack of pressure casting (for the prices they charge, they can afford to pressure cast resin).

You missed my point though. People say that the usual FW like flaws are a sure sign of something being a recast or copy. On the contrary, it just shows the complete lack of skill in their casting people.

I think its ok to make copies of entire sprues if youd want to do that.

And it can hardly be such a big problem, its probably more expensive to buy the proper equipment then to buy the org sprues.

Recast ~ making a copy of greenstuff

I dont have a problem with recasting anything so long as its not being sold

SilverMK2 wrote:I think it is the only real cost effective way of making "destroyed" vehicle terrain features etc... I would not want to waste either lots of money, or one of my vehicles in order to create a burnt out/exploded land raider/rhino/etc, nor would I particularly want to use up precious bits on one.

I advise that you stay well away from my LGS, then. There be Baneblade wrecks.

Recasting for personal use is probably the safest bet, but it 'hurts GW', as they say. Whether or not this is illegal generally has nothing to do with one's personal opinion on the matter, although it may affect one's willingness to do it.

So it boils down to the usual question... does GW care about you? I'll let you handle that one, Dakka.

Direct recasting for resale is absolute theft no matter how you look at it, but the old 'modify it and resell it' is still a grey area. Obviously GW as a publically traded company would take exception to the practice, but I'd be willing to say that the majority of individual hobbyists, who work for and support GW consider appropriation to be as much a part of the hobby as conversion and house ruling. Proclaiming that it is GW's sole right and privilege to profit from the hobby as a whole is a broad statement - legally they have their intellectual property and nothing else. Is it wrong to sell painted models? Is it wrong to sell personal one-off conversions?

Personally, should I ever meet someone who re-casts entire armies, I'd be fine as long as they don't try to sell their armies.

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:I don't understand what the problem with re-casting for personal use is. It's no different that uploading your CDs to MP3s for you ipod.

Yes it is. It's a lot different. First of all, unless you're somewhat psychotic, you don't listen to the same CD more than once at a time. There is no benefit to owning music, movies, or books more than once (for personal use).

On the other hand, if you make copies of models, you're gaining benefit from each additional model you have. There is a clear benefit to this.

On top of that, the law specifically allows you to make a digital backup copy of any media you own. It does not entitle you to make exact copies of copyrighted miniatures.

As long as you're not selling it (or giving away), what's the harm?

The harm is that you're gaining from someone else's work, without compensating them. They are therefore harmed. If you need 100 marines, and each marine sold nets $.05 for the sculptor, then if you bought your marines, the sculptor would make $5. If you bought 1 marine, and cast the other 99, the sculptor would make $.05. Perhaps that's only a difference of $4.95, but it's still a loss to him.

spartanghost wrote:
I like recasting for the reason that some bitz are just hard (or even impossible) to come by without buying a whole squad, that probably needs it anyway. Tau Seeker misssiles for instance: you get 1 per vehicle, yet each vehicle can take 2. I'd recast them in a heartbeat so i can meet WYSIWG. I don't think it's that different from Greenstuffing your own version. As long as you arent reccasting an entire squad (or if you're digustingly ambitious, a sprue/vehicle) then GW isn't losing any Revenue, really.

If you needed that seeker missile, you might have otherwise paid forgeworld for a seeker missile pack. The fact that you just stole their IP means they're not getting that $10 sale. You are causing them to lose revenue. If you really really needed it, you might buy a skyray to get six. That's more money that you're denying the rightful copyright holder. Or you could make do without...

Cryonicleech wrote:
Personally, should I ever meet someone who re-casts entire armies, I'd be fine as long as they don't try to sell their armies.

Consider this possibility. GW charges a lot of money for their miniatures. They have fixed costs that need to be met - the salaries of their sculptors, the cost of their molds, and so on. They set their prices based on covering these fixed costs plus some profit, divided by the number they expect to sell. Now, if 5% of the people out there are recasting their armies instead of paying for them, they need to charge the paying customers more to cover those losses. Companies don't simply absorb losses like this, they pass them on to the consumers.

In GWs case, I have no idea what the scale of this is, I'll admit this upfront. I know more about the software industry. There are reasons that programs like Microsoft Office and Adobe Photoshop cost so much, and that's because, outside of corporate buyers, less than half of personal users pay for them, and so everyone else pays more to make up the loss.

elite_dannux wrote:
And it can hardly be such a big problem, its probably more expensive to buy the proper equipment then to buy the org sprues.

This may be the case - but the money is going to the wrong place. You have a mini that you like so much that you're willing to recast it, and you'd rather give money to Joe's resin shack than the guy who has spent years learning his art that you clearly enjoy. Doesn't that seem wrong?

No the money wont go tho the wrong place because the "problem" is so small. Id be surprised if there are eaven 100 people that makes recasts in eaven small numbers IN THE WHOLE WORLD.

You are just acting silly right now.

And as i said, is there a difference in making copies in greenstuff and recast? And what about plasticard?

I have seen dozens of "copies" in plasticard just on this forum, isnt that piracy too? So 2/3 ways to create models is ok?

Red, you've got a point.

I'm not saying "go cast armies" but should someone have casted something I'm fine with it. I'm not going to do it, but it's someone's decision if they wanna break the law.

Plus, I don't know anyone with the technology or time to re-cast whole armies.

elite_dannux wrote:No the money wont go tho the wrong place because the "problem" is so small. Id be surprised if there are eaven 100 people that makes recasts in eaven small numbers IN THE WHOLE WORLD.

The scale of the problem doesn't mean it isn't an issue. Candy bars are inexpensive, they cost the candy company a paltry amount to make. Do you believe it is okay to steal candy from a store, because the value is so small?

It's not silly, it's how society functions. We don't steal items and justify it because the value of the item was low.

Redbeard wrote:
The scale of the problem doesn't mean it isn't an issue. Candy bars are inexpensive, they cost the candy company a paltry amount to make. Do you believe it is okay to steal candy from a store, because the value is so small?

There is a big difference to shoplift a snickers in your example and to make a recast. A "recasted" snickers would be i a bought a whole new kitchen and chocolade/peanuts just to make myself a snickers at home. And is that illegal? To make a copy of a candybar? I have a really hard time to belive that.

Is it ok to shoplift a unit box from a store? Of course not. Is it ok to make a copy of a model (no matter the way)? Yes it is.


And you still havent aswered the question where the difference in recasting/sculpting in greenstuff/builing in plasticard are. For all reasons your coping a model.

elite_dannux wrote:
There is a big difference to shoplift a snickers in your example and to make a recast. A "recasted" snickers would be i a bought a whole new kitchen and chocolade/peanuts just to make myself a snickers at home. And is that illegal? To make a copy of a candybar? I have a really hard time to belive that.

Try copying it and selling it, and you'll see how quickly you go to court.

Is it ok to shoplift a unit box from a store? Of course not. Is it ok to make a copy of a model (no matter the way)? Yes it is.

Actually, no it isn't, it's illegal. You're unlikely to be prosecuted, but it is illegal. In my book, that means it is not ok.

And you still havent aswered the question where the difference in recasting/sculpting in greenstuff/builing in plasticard are. For all reasons your coping a model.

That's because at that point it becomes a more complicated issue. Go to GW's legal page and read their stance about what you can and cannot do with their IP. You can make conversions - they say that. You can create any model you want if you do it yourself - again, this is something they allow you to do with their IP - they have waived that protected right. You cannot mold things. It says it right there in black and white. That's their right as the copyright holder.

What's the difference, you ask? The answer is that the owner of the copyright has graciously permitted you to sculpt your own copies of their IP (and they don't have to allow this...), and that they've explicitly said that you cannot cast anything based on their IP. They're the copyright holder, it is their right to make this distinction, and they have done so, drawing that line. That's the difference.

Redbeard wrote:

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:I don't understand what the problem with re-casting for personal use is. It's no different that uploading your CDs to MP3s for you ipod.

Yes it is. It's a lot different. First of all, unless you're somewhat psychotic, you don't listen to the same CD more than once at a time. There is no benefit to owning music, movies, or books more than once (for personal use).

On the other hand, if you make copies of models, you're gaining benefit from each additional model you have. There is a clear benefit to this.

I don't agree with you on this point: I see a HUGE benefit in hanging out with my tiny iPod when going to town, while the multiple, original CDs stay home, nestled in my hi-fi system, and some copies of them are in my car's CD player: I don't have to endlessly swap from portable CD player to car CD player to home CD player for the same music!

Redbeard wrote:On top of that, the law specifically allows you to make a digital backup copy of any media you own. It does not entitle you to make exact copies of copyrighted miniatures.

But for the legal part, I must admit you are right... As you mention later, GW entitles us with the right to convert and scratch-build, not cast!

So this is it, full stop.

I personally don't find recasting to be okay if you are going to be reproducing character minis or vehicles, but if you are going to be making bits that you need more of then I see that as fine. It is just the same as using green stuff or even using sculptors material to make another assault cannon, or the like.

@Redbeard:
I agree with you about 95%. I would never condone recasting in many cases, but as I said above if you are taking the time, effort and investment to recast smaller things that you need specifically I see it as making it on your own. Given your stance, would you consider someone making something out of greenstuff or sculpting clay to be stealing, despite the fact that GW makes some of these supplies readily available? Keep in mind that making a copy of various bitz or so is almost identical in principal to recasting since you are not making something original.

It's certainly ok for things you lose, after all, you bought them, you should be able to use them.

It's ok for individual pieces like meltaguns.

Furthermore, it is certainly ok to recast original works, even if it is based on other minis (like turning a guardsman into a traitor guardsman, you could recast that IMO)

The analogy of recopying CD for your convenience to recasting minis ( thats not your own work )

is like saying:

Having up credit cards is equal to counterfeiting money bills.

It is similar in many cases, copying a CD for personal use and casting a lost tank-tread are very similar, recasting individual pieces would be like creating a CD of all your favorite songs by many different artists, you still have to have the original, but it is much more convenient to put a bunch of songs on one CD than to just switch CDs whenever you wanna listen to something different, and recasting stuff you did yourself is like an artist printing CDs of his own work (which might take samples from others See: Every rap song ever)

GW allows you to sculpt, not recast.

I would make the distinction for OOP models.
Not limited edition mind you (That's a whole different kettle of fish).

99% of the time I would say illegal,
it's that 1% of grey area that we are talking about here.

I really dont give a damn what GW "allows" me to do with my property, if I want to make 1000 copies of one of the models I bought from them I can, so long as I dont bring them to a tourney that disallows that sort of thing, or sell them, there is nothing GW can do about it.

Canonness Rory wrote:if I want to make 1000 copies of one of the models I bought from them I can

*frowns

Canonness Rory wrote:I really dont give a damn what GW "allows" me to do with my property

No, they don't either. But they do care what you do with their property. The IP behind the physical miniature is not your property.

if I want to make 1000 copies of one of the models I bought from them I can, so long as I dont bring them to a tourney that disallows that sort of thing, or sell them, there is nothing GW can do about it.

If you want to hold up a convenience store, you can do that too, as long as you don't get caught. Not being caught does not make your actions legal.

Any chance of a new option lego mate?

Ok for re-casting small parts (weapons, heads etc etc) that you do not plan on selling.

For example; someone makes custom lasguns and then casts them for his/her guard.

But as for casting basic models, i'd say no, since your simply doing it to save having to spend alot of money.
The weapons are just to save time when making say 200 lasguns. (and maybe save a little sanity)

Redbeard wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:I really dont give a damn what GW "allows" me to do with my property

No, they don't either. But they do care what you do with their property. The IP behind the physical miniature is not your property.

if I want to make 1000 copies of one of the models I bought from them I can, so long as I dont bring them to a tourney that disallows that sort of thing, or sell them, there is nothing GW can do about it.

If you want to hold up a convenience store, you can do that too, as long as you don't get caught. Not being caught does not make your actions legal.

The difference is holding up a convenience store is illegal, and has victims, whereas casting toy soldiers is not, and does not. It bcomes illegal when you try to sell them. And even if it was illegal, that doesn't mean it is wrong. In islamic countries it is illegal or a woman to leave the house without her husband's permission, does that mean it is wrong?

Canonness Rory wrote:
The difference is holding up a convenience store is illegal, and has victims, whereas casting toy soldiers is not, and does not. It bcomes illegal when you try to sell them.

I suggest you research this before you post. It is illegal.

And even if it was illegal, that doesn't mean it is wrong. In islamic countries it is illegal or a woman to leave the house without her husband's permission, does that mean it is wrong?

You know, there was an entire other thread about this. You're espousing engaging in illegal activities. You can make whatever comparisons to whatever other laws you want in order to make yourself feel better, but you're stealing intellectual property that you don't have the right to take, and it is illegal.

I suggest you research this before you post. It is illegal.

Prove it.

You know, there was an entire other thread about this. You're espousing engaging in illegal activities. You can make whatever comparisons to whatever other laws you want in order to make yourself feel better, but you're stealing intellectual property that you don't have the right to take, and it is illegal.

You're the one comparing recasting army men to holding up a convenience store, and I am not stealing any property, intellectual or otherwise.

Great Unlclean One wrote:Never done it but I suppose it would be okay to make weapons like meltaguns that you can't buy individually, not anymore than that though, re-casting a whole model is too obvious and a bit more than just a gun.

I dunno. You can buy a 5 pack of meltaguns from GW, directly.

There are bit sites and ebay sites that sell meltaguns as well.

I have no problem with people doing this for personal use ONLY. Personally, I don't think it's worth the time to make the mold just to crank out a few meltaguns for personal use.

Which leads to selling self-molded bits, which I am 100% against (as a capitalist).

I'd say that it's alright for hard to find bitz, GW won't sell them anymore and the turret part for a razorback is really hard to come by yet endlessly usefull.

I say its ok to do the small bits you can't get ahold of like purty seals and skulls and I also think its ok to cast items that you can't buy anymore such as OOP items as long as they are for personal use.

I'm trying to make my own lighting claw's and everyone i know say's it's ok i have plenty of gun's i may need rocket launcher's though soon but you can get whole havoc's in blister's

Canonness Rory wrote:
The difference is holding up a convenience store is illegal, and has victims, whereas casting toy soldiers is not, and does not. It bcomes illegal when you try to sell them. And even if it was illegal, that doesn't mean it is wrong. In islamic countries it is illegal or a woman to leave the house without her husband's permission, does that mean it is wrong?

For every recast ( not original creation ) you make to save yourself money (because GW is expensive )

thats one item GW isnt getting money for ( even if its personal use )

Are you sure you arnt harming anyone now?

Its not that "its legal to recast a copy righted without permission aslong as its personal use"

Its "if its personal use i wont get caught , no one knows no one tells , all is ok "

I also agree that re-making things is fine, need that weapon or hard to find bit? There you go! I also agree that aslong as you aren't re-selling them it's fine, still illegal, but i'm not going to call you out on it or report it. If it's well done then all the power to you. Sure you deprive GW their 'hard earned' money but really you aren't hurting them. They continue to show that their business is greatly improving, growing, and with prices increase, I Know they wont miss the things you cast.

My gut feeling says that recasting is not ok at all. But truthfully, if I had the capability, I would most likely do it.
I would do it at the very least for bits, or when certain pieces could be used to easily mod one thing into another (ie. a devilfish into a hammerhead).

The prices are just so ridiculously high. If I wanted a full unit of wraithguards, I'd have to spend $150...

That is outrageous IMHO.

I don't support re-casting as it's a loss of creativity ; but i completely agree with casting part you create however you create it

I realize this isn't a justification for recasting figures, but how many other people's creative products did GW rip off in the creation of their universe? Tolkien, Moorcock, Aliens, Macross... So pot meet kettle. I hardly feel sorry for them, if recasting is hurting their bottom line - which seems unlikely. Obviously recasting and selling copies is illegal and that is well and good. But, I see casting as a craft, and frankly what I decide to model - even if it's modified parts of gw kits seems to me to be my business. That said, the idea of gaming in a GW store where you have to only use their product (i.e. no pig iron heads) seems to me to be anathema to the spirit of the hobby - at least the creative part of the hobby that I like and dakka dakka supports. - Sadly my points are moot because I dont have the equipment to cast - but if I did, I WOULD!

I'm fine with it for parts that you can't get normally, or something you break.

But never to sell.

Personally, I have never done it, and probably never will. I don't think it's illegal, I guess it's a bit like plagerism but legal. I don't think I would do it, just for the morale behind it, it would be cheating your FLGS (like they've never done it to us!).

i disagree completely with casting enless its
a) heavily sculpted
b) of ebay,GW, other people, etc

if you want those 50 melta guns
just hit up a bits store

doing a half decent recast of high detail currant gw models for resale is fraud and the people that do it properly end up losing money because the kit cost so much...... if you want knockoff gw gear go to http://www.giftsforgeeks.org.uk/

Ketara wrote:I think it's okay for OOP miniatures, and components that you can't acquire individually.

I agree with this

I don't see how it's OK sometimes and not so other times. It either is or isn't and that doesn't matter whether it's a small bit or a whole army

Personally, I don't do it but don't care if anyone else does

Doing illegal things is wrong. Everyone knows this. For instance, slaves escaping was illegal in the South before the U.S. Civil War. Therefore, it was bad if they did it. (Note the sarcasm.)

The fact that artists try and profit from their work is fine. The fact that lattices are set in place to provide the consumer with the product that they want is fine. Harnessing the power of the free market to entertain ourselves with little plastic minis is fine.

Now, if Joe X can reproduce something of Steve Y's at a smaller cost than Steve Y can provide it to him, Joe X is going to save money. Intellectual property is a crazy, past-controls-the-future kind of mash-up.

Intellectual property actually consists of copyrights, trademarks, patents, industrial design rights and trade secrets. Trade secrets, industrial design rights and patents are not even on the table here, so let's get on with getting down to brass tax. We are talking about the right to copy something, or copyrights. Also, if you pretend to be GW and sell their stuff, you are violating their trademark (which is arguably fraud anyway, so the laws are redundant.)

If they cannot produce something at a price that I am willing to pay, and I have a way to produce a derivative work to fulfill my own need in a more effective or efficient way than they can otherwise provide, I am going to do the obvious. The fact that copyrights are almost eternal now just goes to show how much control big money interests hold over the law. I suggest, if you don't know of it already, you go check out Mickey Mouse Protection Act. If you think of something, and I can think of a way to make it better/cheaper, then tough titty, no milk today.

If a company like GW wants to stay competitive in the market, it needs to sell something that people are willing to buy. It may own it's pretend universe on paper, but things like Warmachine reveal that they are leaving needs sorely unmet. The fact that they are still in business proves that they are still providing a product that is difficult to reproduce, however, and that is community.

The fact that they have a standardized system of rules (even if they are less than clear) that everyone can agree on, as well as a place provided for their players to enjoy the game, is a testament to their service to their customers. Out of this loyalty, and this loyalty alone, would I even hesitate to produce derivative works.

Just some food for thought; you don't have to be a senseless law-drone to lay claim to a legitimate moral compass. Just because someone else tells you that it is wrong does not mean that it is. Permitting someone to high-hand and brow-beat you with legal technicalities about something like copying minis is ridiculous. There is a line that can be crossed when laws cease to serve the freedoms of all and begin to encroach upon them. Copyright law is one of those line-crossers, as is overwhelmingly demonstrated in the melt-down of the CD industry at the advent of cheaper and easier downloading. Don't like the competition? Get out of the market.

Wow, so many votes! I voted for the category currently in the lead (bits that cannot be bought individually) but there are so many different "clone" categories that, if you total them up, it seems like that is more of the consensus.

I heard a line that went something like:
"Each model you copy is taking money away from the sculptor."

It might be true for traditional art sculpture, but not for miniature work.

The sculptor has already been paid for his/her work. They do not get royalties for the use of these sculpts, nor retain the rights them (unless contracted otherwise). Copying the work does therefore not 'harm' the sculptor - merely the corporation that holds the IP on the models.

I have copied stuff. What? I was taught how to make moulds and cast metals at a job. I practised with what I had to improve my skills. The original practice casts were all reused (the beauty of metal is that you can just melt it down and recast it).

No one cares. the people that do claim to care just ned something to claim to be FURIOUS over so they can Nerd Rage on the internet from the safety of their mother's basement.

Do want you want but keep your yap shut about it.

Isn't that simple?

Howlingmoon wrote:No one cares. the people that do claim to care just ned something to claim to be FURIOUS over so they can Nerd Rage on the internet from the safety of their mother's basement.

Do want you want but keep your yap shut about it.

Isn't that simple?

For some of them, it is that simple. For others, they may run a small miniature or game company, and every single recast tears into their paycheck. They spend half of their life trying to get established, only to find someone on ebay selling cheap copies of their life's work. This is probably the reason for some of the knee-jerk reactions you get from this sort of thing. I've posted my opinion about the subject, but it doesn't mean that I can't empathize with those that I don't necessarily agree with.

Apparently it is impossible for the subject of "casting" to come up without every matchbook lawyer spouting off about the "legal" and "illegal" aspects of said topic.

It's an OPINION poll, how do you feel about it, and no amount of "check GWs legal page" isn't going to change someone's perspective about whether it is right or wrong.
Perhaps it is best to just leave these damn threads to die, since they all end up the same, usually in bickering.

chromedog wrote:I heard a line that went something like:
"Each model you copy is taking money away from the sculptor."

It might be true for traditional art sculpture, but not for miniature work.

The sculptor has already been paid for his/her work. They do not get royalties for the use of these sculpts, nor retain the rights them (unless contracted otherwise). Copying the work does therefore not 'harm' the sculptor - merely the corporation that holds the IP on the models.

I have copied stuff. What? I was taught how to make moulds and cast metals at a job. I practised with what I had to improve my skills. The original practice casts were all reused (the beauty of metal is that you can just melt it down and recast it).

Actually, it is even more so for miniature work, as the same miniature may be replicated indefinatley (like certain dark eldar) earning the sculptor a small % per sale.

The sculptor owns the IP, so the sculptor decides how s/he wants it copyrighted GW does not own the IP on its sculpts, its sculptors do.

elite_dannux wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
The scale of the problem doesn't mean it isn't an issue. Candy bars are inexpensive, they cost the candy company a paltry amount to make. Do you believe it is okay to steal candy from a store, because the value is so small?

There is a big difference to shoplift a snickers in your example and to make a recast. A "recasted" snickers would be i a bought a whole new kitchen and chocolade/peanuts just to make myself a snickers at home. And is that illegal? To make a copy of a candybar? I have a really hard time to belive that.

Is it ok to shoplift a unit box from a store? Of course not. Is it ok to make a copy of a model (no matter the way)? Yes it is.


And you still havent aswered the question where the difference in recasting/sculpting in greenstuff/builing in plasticard are. For all reasons your coping a model.

There is a difference between recasting (copying) a mini or component and sculpting/making something out of plasticard/greenstuff. I'm not a legal eagle so cant give you a 'proper' explanation but scratch building something pays homage to the original, and providing you are honest and say its is an homage to the original you are doing nothing wrong, taking scratchbuild and passing it off as an original copyrighted and trademarked work would be dishonest...its not much of an explanation, if someone can explain better than please do.

Recasting is essentially cloning, you are taking an original work and then directly copy it. You could argue that you are paying homage to the original and by adding bits, green stuffing, is it is no longer original and therefore acceptable. Its seems a grey area but it is isn't, really.......Ill put it another way. you learn to sculpt buy the equipment, buy the material release your minis, trying to recoup your costs AND try to make a profit. Lets say someone needs 20 minis to build an army YOU want to sell 20 they buy 1 then clone the rest taking money out of your pocket...


Its a bit different when it personally affects us but I suppose GW PP Perry Minatures et al, can afford to subsidise the shifty and dishonest amongst us..right?

Anyway

getting back onto the OP's original topic I voted other. recasting and threads on the subject opens dim murky cesspools of commentary Legally its wrong we should publicly back that and then behind closed doors cure our silicone rubber......

I voted for the "ok for full clones of entire sprues" option.

I've done recasts, mostly it'll be a bit that I'll compose out of GW bitz and then mass copy for a project. Custom basing, converted heads, backpacks, specific weapons etc.
I've not had the guts to recast large models yet. Not to mention that the cost of recasting is viciously high. Unless you buy the gear to make really nice sculpts and the right materials (industrial stuff) you'll usually just end up with a passable likeness saved by the amount of copies you made and how good you are at fixing it with conversion mats and painting. Out of a batch of helmets I made about half or so that had bubbles or some casting flaw that needed some serious work to fix or just had to be scrapped.
This does say more about my skill as a recaster, but its still a valid point. Recasting does not guarantee a 100% copy, so you don't get 100% value for the cost you sink into it. Around here everything you need for recasting has to be ordered from an international supplier. Short of large conversion projects or something like 'Titan spare parts' it really isn't worth it. Its cheaper in most cases to just buy the models from GW.
Other 'casters' in my area have recast whole tanks but I've never seen one used in a game, they've all been for diorama or scenery projects (if that matters to someone). The recasters I know (all 3 of us) all have a policy about never selling anything they recast. That's just not the point of recasting for us.

The arguements against casting that refer to copyright etc don't really move me at all. I just don't agree with copyright and IP laws. Even though I've created things I guess I could copyright I prefer to license it via Creative Commons - Share Alike kind of license rather than some "NO MINE!" license. If your reasons against recasting are for legal reasons I can respect that, I'll still disagree though.
Abortedsoul made some great points. I'd also recommend checking out "RIP: Remix Manifesto", a very approachable documentary on copyright issue with a focus on the remix of music.

Aside from all this legals stuff recasting kindof feels like the logical 'next step' for me. I want to learn how to do it really well and hopefully I'll be recasting my own stuff some day ^^

@Krellnus
Are you sure the GW sculptors own the IP? If they're working for GW when they create it, its more than likely that GW owns it. Just wondering what your source is

PrOtOcoN wrote:

The arguements against casting that refer to copyright etc don't really move me at all. I just don't agree with copyright and IP laws. Even though I've created things I guess I could copyright I prefer to license it via Creative Commons - Share Alike kind of license rather than some "NO MINE!" license. If your reasons against recasting are for legal reasons I can respect that, I'll still disagree though.
Abortedsoul made some great points. I'd also recommend checking out "RIP: Remix Manifesto", a very approachable documentary on copyright issue with a focus on the remix of music.

Aside from all this legals stuff recasting kindof feels like the logical 'next step' for me. I want to learn how to do it really well and hopefully I'll be recasting my own stuff some day ^^

btw you wont be re casting you should be casting from your own sculpts and moulds.

I agree with Creative Commons but this still strives to protect the ownership of the original work, you do not give copyright up it just makes transfer and useage a bit simpler.

I have had experience with people recasting, not minis but the principal is the same, the guys making money i could understand, hate them, but understand. Saying that you understand the law but are going to break it anyway is just plain stupid, saying it causes no harm is just village idiocy. Doing it then whining about 'the man' just makes euthanasia more attractive.

if you are going to do it just do it don't brag about it or try and justify your actions.

PrOtOcoN wrote:

The arguements against casting that refer to copyright etc don't really move me at all. I just don't agree with copyright and IP laws. Even though I've created things I guess I could copyright I prefer to license it via Creative Commons - Share Alike kind of license rather than some "NO MINE!" license. If your reasons against recasting are for legal reasons I can respect that, I'll still disagree though.

I think there is some wisdom to be found here.

Mr. Burning wrote:Saying that you understand the law but are going to break it anyway is just plain stupid, saying it causes no harm is just village idiocy. Doing it then whining about 'the man' just makes euthanasia more attractive.

if you are going to do it just do it don't brag about it or try and justify your actions.

It may just be me, but I didn't find one reasonable or convincing bit of argument in your entire post. Did you just say it to be redundant? If so, you could have just typed "check the legal policy on GWs site illegal stuff is always bad" like everyone else. If you do have a serious point that nobody has posted yet, I'd love to hear it. I'm sure there is a good reason that you believe what you do, and I don't want to make it seem like nobody is interested in hearing it. I'd love to find out your reasons behind your convictions. ^.^

Making the assumption that people are explaining to justify themselves seems entirely unfounded guesswork- it would probably be safer to assume that they are doing it so that maybe someone else will understand.

abortedsoul

yeah, you have a point. looking back on my post and others on this thread I'm being pretty redundant without being totally clear or having a point.

I have been affected by theft through the use of 'recasting'. the real damage came from the mentality of some users who whilst acknowledging the law saw nothing wrong with taking something I had created and then copying it so they did not have to pay for another item. I lost sales.

Thats my personal beef.

though this has absolutely no relevance to the poll in question

Mr. Burning wrote:Saying that you understand the law but are going to break it anyway is just plain stupid, saying it causes no harm is just village idiocy. Doing it then whining about 'the man' just makes euthanasia more attractive.

if you are going to do it just do it don't brag about it or try and justify your actions.

I actually think that the first step in breaking any rule must be to understand it. If you don't understand why the rule is in place, it's propably a good idea not to break it. ^^
That aside I really tried to not sound like I was justifying breaking the law, certainly didn't think I was coming of as bragging =p
If I'd said something like: "Yeah take THAT corporate fat cats! I'm copying your stuff in this basement. Put that in your pipe and smoke it! *PrOtOcoN is now listening Sex Pistols - Anarchy in the UK*" then I'd understand your reaction.

I'm just saying that there are other reasons to recast than not liking GW or [Insert model creator of your choice], or wishing to hurt their sales. We can agree and disagree with those reasons in a civil discussion, but the law doesn't allow for another view on this matter. I can't talk my way out of that, I mean that's it, it's illegal.

I use to be extremely paranoid about people stealing my work, be it written or painted works. I'd refuse to show other people I knew to be creative or like minded since, who knows, they might steal it! I'd not show anyone anything I painted or a conversion I'd made or whatever. Then I realized...if someone were to make something like I'd made (even without seeing mine first) and then THEY would show everyone, why should anyone believe it was me that did it first, or before the person in question? That was what originally got me to be alot more open about what I'm writing, painting, converting or whatever. If people copy it, so be it. Theirs will always be a copy and I can prove it is. In the same way, what I recast will always be a recast, no matter what I later do with it. But with appropriate credit to the original author, I don't see a (moral) problem with actually doing it. Just as I'd not have a problem with someone taking something I spent alot of time on making, and reusing it in some constructive way.

Everything we do is a recast. Some things are just still illegal. (waxed abit poetic there...but I think it's an appropriate end to my rant)

PrOtOcoN wrote:
Everything we do is a recast.

One of the strongest lessons available from studying history.

Mr. Burning wrote:abortedsoul

yeah, you have a point. looking back on my post and others on this thread I'm being pretty redundant without being totally clear or having a point.

I have been affected by theft through the use of 'recasting'. the real damage came from the mentality of some users who whilst acknowledging the law saw nothing wrong with taking something I had created and then copying it so they did not have to pay for another item. I lost sales.

Thats my personal beef.

though this has absolutely no relevance to the poll in question

I really do have sympathy for people who pour their blood, sweat and tears into something just to have it nabbed by someone else who is wanting to undercut them. In being reasonable, though, there has to be a limit. At what point can an idea be freely enjoyed by all? How long should a corporation be able to sit on an idea and stop all progress and enjoyment of the fruits of that idea without collecting its toll?

Fine lines and slippery slopes are involved here. Sure, if you're deathly afraid of facing moral dilemmas and troubling questions you can drool on yourself, mumble "illegal things are bad" and stumble about your blind way. I didn't get that impression from your statements at all, however. I do think that someone's personal beef is important; it at least holds relevance for what could happen, even if it isn't the most likely thing.


If I may, I am going to try and dispel an argument often made against recasting that is founded firmly in faulty logic.

An argument from potential holds any weight at all. For example, someone may say that "If you had bought the real miniatures, and not recast them, the company would have made more money." While technically true, the statement itself holds a faulty assumption. I may have purchased my minis from a different company, for instance, or I may have gone out and bought fast food. That money might have ended up in my savings account.

Also, saying that recasting hurts peoples "potential sales" is like saying that not running outside right now to rape as many people as you can find is killing your "potential children" that you could have had with those people. Think of all those kids that will never get a chance at life because of the rape that you didn't commit! See the problem there? An argument from potential is, as it goes, no argument at all.

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't really convincing moral arguments for certain kinds of recasting, such as mass-scale ripoff-and-sell recasting. I'm just saying that the field isn't as clear as some people make it out to be, even if they need to tell themselves otherwise.

I have personally never done this, but I have seen people do it when they loose a turret, or need a part and don't want to pay $70 dollars for the model just to get a leg (I am particularly supportive of recasting bits which aren't on the GW website, as I am quite disappointed that they don't have their bits order system anymore, (and with that I'd just like to give kudos to Privateer Press and any other minature companies which do have a complete bits orders system). I voted that I think it is right for minatures which are now out of print, and people still want, but can't get anymore. I think it's wrong to (for example) cast an entire army of squats, then use them in a tournament as imperial guard, unless you bring that same army as 'actual' imperial guardsmen to show that you've dropped the same amount of cash as everyone else has on their armies (I realize that casting is costly, and that some people get their legit armies for next to nothing, but that's another argument).

I think casting is completely legit when you want to make scenery or something where you aren't actually going to use the figures directly in the game. For instance, I wanted to make a 'silver tower' of Tzeentch and have some out of print thousand sons models on it, as 'guards' who didn't have any actual presence in the game. since all of the models are lead, I decided that the best way to do it would be to just cast them in resin or a light plastic which would help me to keep them on the vehicle, since it would be so much lighter. If you think about it, a lot of apocalypse items have to be scratch built (how else are you going to get a warlord titan, or a Khorne lord of battle?).

That's just my 2 cents. I think it's wrong to go make casts of brand new metal or plastic models then try to sell them on ebay for a profit, but I'm sure people do it.

I believe in very little copyright anymore. Companies have taken copyright law so far that if the public swings the pendulum so far back the other way that companies die, it serves them right.

Burn it all down!

when i first got into 40k gaming, i got taken big time by a recaster. he had made up a line of Old West miniatures for a gaming system (don't recall which) that went belly up. so he had everything he needed to make "professional" grade recasts. i say professional due to my being a complete NOOB to the minis and game. i bought tons of RT era Marines, speeders and dreadnaughts. after a few months the owner and a couple of managers at one of my FLGS told me the truth after they found out i'd bought from him. and here's my biggest gripe (other than it's WRONG), he was using real lead. not pewter, lead. at the time i had 2 toddlers. i was livid when i found out.
i'm sure i garner resentment for my position, but i'm against it.

From an ethical standpoint, I use my common sense. Recasting is okay until you're using it to crank out entire squads of still-in-production minis. If you're recasting your old Squats/RT-era Marines rather than spending scary amounts of money on replacements, or you just need a load of Meltaguns, it's permissible; GW does offer metal meltaguns in sets of four, but no one's going to pay for that and I think that's understood. How much profit do you think GW is really making from selling little pewter sprues of meltaguns at ridiculous prices? No one's going to notice or care if you make your own... you're still buying the minis.

I think viewing the game as a "system" is a flawed way of thinking; I've supported the rules and bought the rights to use them in game; after that nothing's stopping my from buying Codex: Imperial Guard and then using homemade models or Pig Iron minis to build my list. I'm being supportive of GW by buying ANYTHING from them.

If buying a pack of melta-guns is going to cause you financial troubles maybe you should be doing something else with your money to begin with.

I say that recasting is fine as long as you don't sell it or cleam that it's yours. That is how most copyrights work...

How else am i supposed to get 20 meltas?

HoverBoy wrote:How else am i supposed to get 20 meltas?

You buy them. Like everyone else.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1080005&prodId=prod1400031

And entrust them to the local postal services, im lucky if even one reaches me intact

Edit: In all honesty i can't recast to save my life

HoverBoy wrote:And entrust them to the local postal services, im lucky if even one reaches me intact

GW tracks their shipments.

If it doesnt reach you , they'll keep shipping it till they do reach you.

You need not worry about that at all.

Personally, I don't mind it at all. Games Workshop tends to overprice everything anyway.

Redbeard wrote:[

The scale of the problem doesn't mean it isn't an issue. Candy bars are inexpensive, they cost the candy company a paltry amount to make. Do you believe it is okay to steal candy from a store, because the value is so small?

It's not silly, it's how society functions. We don't steal items and justify it because the value of the item was low.

It is neither accurate nor is it honest to equate stealing a physical thing to copying the work of someone else. If you have a great idea on how to arrange the furniture in your house a certain way to make it pleasing to the eye, for instance, I could simply rearrange my furniture to be like yours instead of hiring you for your signature style as an interior decorator. That would be a more intellectually honest comparison. Is it moral to copy someone else? That is the question; whatever casting is, it isn't physical theft and it is unreasonable and draconian to pretend that the two perceived indiscretions are identical.

JD21290 wrote:For example; someone makes custom lasguns and then casts them for his/her guard.

If you sculpt your own weapons or models, make a cast of your work, and then make copies of your work, that's not recasting. If you buy a model, make a mold of the model, and make copies of that model, that's recasting.

personally, im all for recasting for personal use. Lots of people i know want to dive head first into the hobby, but dont have the funds. So casting up models, and converting and painting like everyone else is fine by me. It's a hobby and a game, and IMO models are just models.


Recasting and selling them, i dont like. Unless it's 100% your own work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
personally, im all for recasting for personal use. Lots of people i know want to dive head first into the hobby, but dont have the funds. So casting up models, and converting and painting like everyone else is fine by me. It's a hobby and a game, and IMO models are just models.


Recasting and selling them, i dont like. Unless it's 100% your own work.

Not quite sure if this post is worth starting a new thread for, but I have to question wether or not the people claiming that GW's legal information is the gospel have done ANY research into Fair Use laws, at least in the United States? Most of what's on their webpage is simply wrong. It is a giant lie, I presume to scare people. I've established in other posts here on Dakka, that I'm a massive GW fanboy, but people have GOT to do their homework on what is, and is not legal; that GW page is simply one of the biggest peices of misinformation I've ever seen. We're not talking simple mis-inturpritation here, we're talking outright lies from my favorite gaming company in the world. A few finer points to note:

GW's website says that you cannot reproduce any part of their books for any reason, without explicit written concent.

And yet U.S. copyright law, section 107: Copyright protects the particular way an author has expressed himself. It does not extend to any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work.

It's the reason GW's attempt to copyright the roll to hit, roll to wound, armor save mechanic failed miserably in courts.

Their claim that you can't use their "IP" being their trademarks in any website without explicit permission is also a lie.

"Can I copyright the name of my band? (or in this case product ideas etc.)
No. Names are not protected by copyright law. Some names may be protected under trademark law." I did some research on this one, and GW HAS filed trademark claims to darn near everything in their empire, but they are effectively abusing the system and intent of the law. It is stated very clearly in the opening paragraphs of the trademark law is highly frowned upon, (That includes naming COMPONENTS of a SYSTEM i.e. figures and game mechanics) and abuse of the trademark system is grounds for legal repurcussions.

Regarding their claim that you are technically violating copyright from even posting photos of your miniatures:

Taken from the electronic copyright division website: "Copyright law protects the original photograph, not the subject of the photograph. " So in other words, using their photo of their product is a violation, but taking your own is completely legal, AND doing whatever you want with it.

Yet they make another claim that you cannot create distribute or use in any way, material that is derogatory, obsene, etc. etc. which is also completely anti first-amendment as even a 6th grader can tell you.

All I'm saying here is that take whatever GW says with a grain of salt, especially in regards to copyright law. I don't think the people writing that page have even read copyright/trademark laws and have put most of that info out there to scare folks.

can someone explain what recasting is please? I would really appreciate it.

If my memory serves me right were some articles in some of the old White Dwarf about casting items, such as banners, weapons and small items.

The rule of thumb is.

You may cast molds for your personal use.

You may not sell those items that you just made duplicates of, unless you have the "rights" to do so.

Recasting is one massive grey area

though personally I would say it's ok as long as YOU HAVE ZERO INENTION of EVER selling them, like i'm doing tracked heavy weapons for my gaurd, i'm thinking of casting up cyclops tracks for the sides and custom sculpting where the weapon will sit. I'm still going to have to buy some of the cyclops vehicles, just not as many as I would of. If there were no cyclops vehicles i'd have to commision somebody to make the tracks but since there are i'm buying some of them.

net gain goes to GW/FW as i'm buying more from them than I was intending to

casting whole models/sprues successfully without professional equipment is so hard. Most of the time, you're better off buying the model than having like 5 miscast ones and wasting time. I cast bits to use, mostly just helmets and backpacks and such, but not whole models, and i would never think of selling them.

I think it's fine to do with lost pieces or broken pieces that need to be replaced, it would be ridiculous to have to buy another box set just to replace a few pieces that are lost/broken.

NEVER

Sorry,but I hate knock-offs in all shapes and sizes.

I deal in absolutes,and there is no "Buts".

Please don't play the thread necromancy card.

Honestly, it feels like theres a line between what is legal and what we would do. I think any recast is technically illegal (tho I dont have laws to back me up) but I think that certain recasting would be ok. Especially on items that GW doesnt sell on it's own. But thats more opinion than anything...

Yay necro *RISE MY LEGIONS RISE*

*ahem*

I think its more justified as the cost is going up and you need some bitz that you cannot get otherwise (special weapons like blasters and stuff)

i got to check out one of the recasts this weekend. HORRIBLE! half the librarian's face was missing! i really hope they fix this problem.....

Never sellable, and only if its recast properly, so when you walk into GW they dont go GOTCHA BIATCH!

Reproducing someone elses copywrited intellectual property or miniature is illegal, straight up.

If you scuplted it yourself, by all means cast away! If not, do what you want but be prepared to face the legal concequences if you try to profit from it.

I re-cast some times, especially now because GW prices are extortionate , (26 quid for a tactical squad???) and for me personally the hobby is more about painting rather than playing so the value instantly drops in my opinion, But I would never sell them, you could probably get sniped by the head of GW for that

Hello Necro Thread! Well, while I'm here anyway, I'd like to make some points that have not thusfar been made (or been made clearly, imo).

Myth 1: Recasting is illegal
In Russia it's completely legal. In the United States, it is situationally legal, depending. In other regions... who knows? I don't. And, neither do you, probably.

Myth 2: Copyright Infringment is stealing
This is a myth that is heavily pushed by the record companies. Unfortunately for them, they have tried and failed with this argument in court. Copyright infringement is akin to stealing as a wolf is akin to a beagle, or a cupcake is akin to a muffin. Just because they share some superficially similar traits does not make them the same.

Myth 3: Games Workshop's legal page is a good guide to your rights
GWS naturally overreaches as far as possible, which you'd expect. They assert rights far in excess of what they generally have.

Myth 4: When you recast, you deprive GWS of revenue
Depends. Lets say you recast part of a Rhino to make into scenery. If you could not recast it - would you have bought a entire Rhino to cut up into scenery? If the answer to this is "no", you did not deprive GWS of income. Look at your MP3 collection. I'm guessing you might have a song or two you didn't buy. If you could not download a copy of "Who let the dogs out", would you have bought it... or would you have done without?

Myth 5: Recasting is illegal in my locality, but I'm not selling what I recast, so it's not wrong to do it
Don't kid yourself. What you can legally do, and what is morally OK and not strictly the same. If you recast some bits and paint them up and don't tell anyone, you probably won't suffer any consequences... but integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking (under the paint).

Myth 6: Threads on recasting make good topics for discussion on the internet
Unfortunately, recasting law is complex and mostly grey areas. The interwebs lend themselves well to bombast and hyperbole, not well-reasoned arguments.


As for my personal opinion? I think it's OK for personal use on OOP items, or bits you own that you've lost or broken (i.e. a small piece of Rhino tread)

Lets get this straight:

1. If the item that you are casting has not been altered or remade in any way, then you lay yourself very open to repercussions.

2. If it is entirely original, then you can do what you want.

3. If it is an original sculpt of a GW part, then it can be argued that it is your original property. For example, if you sculpt a meltagun, which is allowed by GW, then cast it, then, I see no legal reason for the casting of your sculpt to be wrong.

4. Modifying a GW part is okay. For example, creating a Space Marine Helmet with a custom GS insignia on the forehead. However, the casting of this is a grey area for this reason: You are casting a GW product with a bit of original work added on top. There is no problem with your GS work being casted, but the helmet on the bottom is not okay to recast. So it is probably much safer to either sculpt your own helmet in it's entirety or just cast the Insignia.

There are other more specific grey areas etc. but it is usually best to deal with them as they come up.

Just a thought, but how many people would be okay with this if we weren't talking about GW? I mean, lets say we're discussing a mom and pop miniatures company and recasting will actually hurt their bottom line? Is that okay? I think someone did mention they've had this happen to them.

My opinion, no, its not okay. Yeah, GW charges a lot for little pieces of plastic. I don't think anyone gets into this hobby without knowing that. And whether or not it is actually illegal to recast minis (frankly I'm with Redbeard on that issue), there's something that needs to be addressed. GW's legal claim that you cannot copy their miniatures can also be interpreted as them asking you not to. I think this is a simple matter of curtousy. They've sold these products to you on the assumption of what you're going to do with them. If they knew you planned to recast them, they wouldn't sell the product to you. Whether you give a damn or not about the legality involved, I just see it as the decent thing not to. The fact that GW will throw people out of their stores for recasts clearly means they don't want people doing it, and I should think its polite simply not to do so.

Yeah, we can say the hell with it to the legailty of it and just go for anarchy. But its my feeling that we should respect the wishes of GW's staff, seeing as they are the ones who created the models in the first place.

The thing is, with some fleet based games (dystopian wars is a good example) you can buy a starter pack, and then simply recast entire fleets from that first fleet. Some games are more vulnerable to this than most.
I don't care if copyright law is fuzzy about this, this is way different to downloading music or movies online. Music and movies - you only *need* one copy per person, sure a few would copy for car, ipod, PC and a few other places for convenience and ease of access, but that's within reason, the music company wouldn't expect you to buy three or four copies of the disc, one for each location. With wargaming armies however, half the point is that you collect more and more. Recasting, however small, is costing some people the money you should have given them. Even with OOP miniatures, you might prefer those models, but you're still depriving the company of their money by building an army but not paying them money. And sure, it may cost a lot of money to do it legit. But you knew that the second you got into the hobby, didn't you?

@ GoldenKaos
I'm sorry, but recasting is in no way different to music copying, no matter the subject matter you end up with more than what you pay for.

That being said i doubt the two sides of this argument will ever agree on any compromise.


Follow up question:
Under IP laws sculpting your own space marine is pretty much the same as recasting a GW one, so how come that's considered ok in wargaming circles.
I mean, the law is the law... right?

HoverBoy wrote:@ GoldenKaos
I'm sorry, but recasting is in no way different to music copying, no matter the subject matter you end up with more than what you pay for.

Legally, there might not be any difference, but there is in practical terms. With music, you are unlikely to build a playlist of the same song, copied over and over. With the hobby, it would be very beneficial to build an army of the same models, copied over and over. The point of copying music is usually to spread it to other people, which would be illegal. Recasting allows copying miniatures in a way that can benefit one person greatly, as well as the option to spread it to other people. You are unlikely to want several copies of music for yourself (excepting the obvious case of backing up files), this is not true for miniatures.
So, if we continue with this music copying - recasting comparison, sure, in both cases they're illegal and in both cases you end up with more than what you pay for, but the benefits of an individual owning several copies is far greater for models than for music. When you collect music, you don't buy what you already have, but you certainly do so when you collect miniature armies!

So basucally, it's different cuz you say so.

PS: Still no answer to my question

I recast parts which I have either: a) extensively converted before recasting, b) are individual parts which would be stupid to buy a $40 model for a single weapon I need 50 of, or c) are OOP.

I support the recasting if :

1- its for duplacating OOP models

2- making duplicates of bitz you need but only comes in very small numbers per boxes

3- making a metal part or metal model plastic (I hate metal models)

I support recasting, and would probably do some if i had time or the know how to make a platic similar to GW's, for players like me who dont play at tournements but simply between friends at our respective houses.

I don't have a problem with it, as I intimated in the thread for the poll on finecast. Had two [MOD]'s come in quick and make air about dakka dakka not condoning it in reply suggesting that that was the reason recasting was not an option in that poll. Guess that is a resent policy change.

Alpharius wrote:

laestli wrote:Unfortunately the poll does not include a "cast models from ones I already own" so I could not vote. For me the cost of Finecast is so completely out of proportion to the quality as to be ridiculous.

Dakka Dakka does not, of course, endorse such measures. At all.

Kilkrazy wrote:

laestli wrote:Unfortunately the poll does not include a "cast models from ones I already own" so I could not vote. For me the cost of Finecast is so completely out of proportion to the quality as to be ridiculous.

That's because it is against forum rules to promote recasting.

Phototoxin wrote:I think its more justified as the cost is going up and you need some bitz that you cannot get otherwise (special weapons like blasters and stuff)

So because gas costs are mildly outrageous, I should fill up and leave instead of paying for it?

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how people are still trying to justify this. If you sculpt your own model, then you should have every right to recast it. But if you start recasting melta guns for example then you're breaking the law. That is fact. It doesn't matter how much it costs. Theft is theft. The law is the law.

Why is this conversation continuing?

It's yours = LEGAL

It's not yours = ILLEGAL

Stealing but not reselling is still denying the makers their profits. I hate GW as much as the next guy, but the vast majority of their workers aren't demons. They need money too.

Quick question, what happened to making do with what you have? Maybe improvising something and creating a new conversion? I made a plasma gun with two plasma pistols and a flamer and it looks damn fine. Where's the ingenuity we as modelers and painters are supposed to have?

Rico...

I personally feel that recasting is perfectly acceptable so long as you don't intend to sell the models, or give them away. Recasting sprues is a great way to give yourself more bits, and allow more customization of your army without having to buy a whole new box just for that *one* weapon you may need.

I honestly don't think it hurts GW sales, either.. because if you're willing to go through all the extra trouble of recasting a sprue/model just to save on some money, chances are you wouldn't have spent that money on the models anways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ouze says it brilliantly: Myth 4: When you recast, you deprive GWS of revenue
Depends. Lets say you recast part of a Rhino to make into scenery. If you could not recast it - would you have bought a entire Rhino to cut up into scenery? If the answer to this is "no", you did not deprive GWS of income. Look at your MP3 collection. I'm guessing you might have a song or two you didn't buy. If you could not download a copy of "Who let the dogs out", would you have bought it... or would you have done without?

I Chose other.

Only because of the price/usefullness ratio to some models.
Take the average guardsman. 10 cost $22. Then 10 eldar costs the same. yet the eldar are better than the guardsman.

So if it for something overpriced, and is personally made and for personal use only.

gak thought it was about re-rolling to cast spells

I have bugger all against people recasting small parts, because it would be silly to buy a whole box of chaos marines just for that one head with those spikes, or that one shoulder pad.

The way I see it, if you don't buy the box again for that one part, you'll probably buy something else from GW somewhere down the line, thus is gamer logic.

I think the main thing is, as long as you don't get caught, no one will ever know the difference, and never needs to.

as long as they aren't re-sold, I say anything goes...if I had the capabilites to do so, I'd make entire armies and use them without feeling a shred of guilt

Rico wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:I think its more justified as the cost is going up and you need some bitz that you cannot get otherwise (special weapons like blasters and stuff)

So because gas costs are mildly outrageous, I should fill up and leave instead of paying for it?

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how people are still trying to justify this. If you sculpt your own model, then you should have every right to recast it. But if you start recasting melta guns for example then you're breaking the law. That is fact. It doesn't matter how much it costs. Theft is theft. The law is the law.

Why is this conversation continuing?

It's yours = LEGAL

It's not yours = ILLEGAL

Stealing but not reselling is still denying the makers their profits. I hate GW as much as the next guy, but the vast majority of their workers aren't demons. They need money too.

Quick question, what happened to making do with what you have? Maybe improvising something and creating a new conversion? I made a plasma gun with two plasma pistols and a flamer and it looks damn fine. Where's the ingenuity we as modelers and painters are supposed to have?

Rico...

See the problem with that is that even if you sculpt your own model it is still illegal in the eyes of GW (and to some extent the law) to cast it because even though its your custom sculpt its their IP unless you never use that recast in a GW game and make sure not to copy ANY things that would be owned by GW llike insignias and weapons and such. On their terms GW allow one off conversions and sculpts but recasting those for your own use is not allowed.

Rico wrote:

So because gas costs are mildly outrageous, I should fill up and leave instead of paying for it?

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how people are still trying to justify this. If you sculpt your own model, then you should have every right to recast it. But if you start recasting melta guns for example then you're breaking the law. That is fact. It doesn't matter how much it costs. Theft is theft. The law is the law.

Why is this conversation continuing?

It's yours = LEGAL

It's not yours = ILLEGAL

Stealing but not reselling is still denying the makers their profits. I hate GW as much as the next guy, but the vast majority of their workers aren't demons. They need money too.

Quick question, what happened to making do with what you have? Maybe improvising something and creating a new conversion? I made a plasma gun with two plasma pistols and a flamer and it looks damn fine. Where's the ingenuity we as modelers and painters are supposed to have?

Rico...

No wonder some people are so unreasonable about this. This is the most inflexible nonsense I've ever heard.

IP is the biggest load of gak argument I've ever heard. You can't just equate something to stealing to make it so. CHEWING BUBBLE GUM IS STEALING!!!

Twisted logic, bra.

http://youtu.be/D6_ZqPcNemI

I think it's okay as long as the item in question is difficult to come by, OOP, is not for sale individually and is not sold on, with the exception that if the item has been changed or converted in some way, e.g selling on a boltgun which has added detail, different magazine type, lengthened barrel and a greenstuff strap.
it's completely legal selling on your converted miniatures, so why should it be illegal selling on your converted miniatures that have been recasted?

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:NEVER

Sorry,but I hate knock-offs in all shapes and sizes.

I deal in absolutes,and there is no "Buts".

How about if you take the case of the clear cast Tau stealth suits (one of the first posts) but with a twist.

What if I go and buy from GW every stealth suit figure I will be using, but I recast them clear to make them more cool. I take the originals with me when gaming to show I have a legit GW figure for every recast one I have, i just only use the clear recast.

As for recasting in general, if GW (or those they allow to sell their IP) sells it then suck it up, it's a luxury item you can do without.

Exceptions being wasteful purchase (money and environment wise) of a kit for just one part GW doesn't sell separately and recasting sculptures (yours or with permission of the one who made it) of IP GW doesn't sell figures/models for.

And if for some reason you can't explain you feel guilty, you can always buy a battleforce box for someone looking to get into the game.

This also goes for other companies.

I am only ok with recasting one model and that is Wraithguard, and even then its just because I feel bad for the Eldar players out there. But other than that my answer is never

All good as long as its not for sale, only issue i have otherwise is i dont know how to do it! someone teach me lol

I recast weapon options for each type of squad, if GW let you use options not on the models then I would not recast anything, but a bolter is not a plasma gun, a twin linked Lascannon is not a second close combat weapon, and a storm bolter is not a heavy flamer. Magnetize them all you want, GW does not sell enough in their sets.

If games workshop really wanted to prevent us from recasting, they would include enough extra weapons to fit ALL available options to ALL the products it sales. From marks of such and such, extra armor plates, possession attachments, combi weapons, shields, and so on.

I am Adrian, and I am proud to say, I recast weapon options.

My problem with the poll is that it does not distinguish between casting a model or two for personal use only and recasting with the intent to sell or mass produce the model in question. Also, is the recast done from one of your own models or did you "borrow" it from someone solely to get over on paying for it?

I think it's ok for any of the listed, but not ok to sell them.

Jon

What i have come to find most interesting about these polls is the fact that i am apparently a average gamer. I always or nearly always end up in the largest grouping. Interesting. especially since i am NOT average.

Recasting of an orignal piece, from a mafacturer is wrong, and recasting of any sort should only be done when the piece is entirely or almost entirely of your own design.

If it has any of a manafacturers parts in it, it is wrong to sell it.

That is my opinion.

It's funny, I was talking about this very topic the other day with my brother. As far as I'm concerned, recasting one of your own mini's is really no different to copying one of your own DVDs or CDs onto your Laptop/Tower PC/iPod or iPhone....just don't think about re-selling them is all.....

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:It's funny, I was talking about this very topic the other day with my brother. As far as I'm concerned, recasting one of your own mini's is really no different to copying one of your own DVDs or CDs onto your Laptop/Tower PC/iPod or iPhone....just don't think about re-selling them is all.....

Copying DVDs and CDs onto your laptop (regardless of usage) is illegal as well. The only time it is permitted is if the DVD / CD in question explicitly gives you permission to do so. Which almost none of them do. Now in the US it is permitted to make a single backup copy of the DVD/CD but that is a BACKUP in case of destroyed media... Not the primary way of playing the music. Not coincidentally, the RIAA has tried to stop that as well.

Now you can get properly licensed DVD and CD downloads through purchasing a physical copy but, again, this will be clearly marked on the media case and doesn't apply to all movies/music. Further, you can purchase the media from one of the download stores (iTunes, Amazon, etc) which typically grants you rights to transfer to certain devices.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:As far as I'm concerned, recasting one of your own mini's is really no different to copying one of your own DVDs or CDs onto your Laptop/Tower PC/iPod or iPhone....

The law is with you on this one: they are the same and just as illegal.

Point is unless GW starts putting verbiage on the boxes for their models granting permission to make copies, it is very illegal to make casts and parts from their molds.

Quite frankly, I think it's immoral as well. IMHO, it doesn't matter if they offer that particular part for individual sale or not, nor does it matter if you have to spend $100 for a single melta gun in order to make your army WYSIWYG. It's their IP and their sales model; ergo, it's completely up to them (and you) to decide what to do. If WYSIWYG is that important, you should spend the requisite money or find a suitable alternative such as buying the bit from a trusted source or trading with a buddy.

Speaking for casting, I just bout 2 sets of those ammo crates and battlefield accessories.

I am going to cast the inside crates, cast my own crates using bio packs, sholderpads, and helms. Also make another using grenades, CC weapons, and bulters.

then cast them all several times, so I will have a real weapon cashes worth of ammo, weapons, and armor.

Shouldn't be an issue at all if it's for personal use. There is not a precedent for having End User license agreements for models / miniatures.

Software and Music are whole different story, as is their method of transmission / dispersal.

To compare miniatures to software/ music is comparing apples to oranges.

Of course it is outright illegal to SELL such copies, but to reproduce them yourself for your own enjoyment is basically none of GW's business. My brother, a lawyer, went as far to say that it would be outright unconstitutional on a physical property rights level to dis allow people from making their home-made copies of plastic toy soldiers for their own enjoyment. But that's in the US. I have no clue how it would work in other countries.

But while it's totally OK to recast stuff for yourself, good luck trying to use it in a GW store / tourney since they specifically forbid such practices, something that is within their rights as the owners of the premises.

Even though I recast a lot of weapons, unique shoulder pieces, helmets. I still support GW by buying new Space marine bodies to put them on. And to be honest, I think people that recast whole figures are just stupid because with the cost of GOOD slow-cure low-bubble resins and good RTV it is outright cheaper to just hit up EBAY and buy official GW stuff from the discount sellers. Not to mention, quality degradation must be severe when casting full bodies :p

chromedog wrote: Warpage and bubbles* are said to be the 'tells' for resin re-casts. I disagree, they are the tells for BAD resin recasts

You just summed up Finecast...

I think it depends on the situation, I personally wouldn't mind recasting just about anything if I needed it that badly.

First off, having the ability to create molds and copies is one of the most difficult modeling techniques to perfect. Unless you have professional grade equipment, and a lot of time, and money to sink into casting, a modeler will never be able to crank out the volume and quality of well established manufacturer. Recasting can serve it's purpose. For example, if you are scratch building something and need multiple copies, sometimes recasting is the way to go. Also, a lot of units come with extra bits, and the only thing stopping you from making more units is that there is a set amount of parts. Say for example, a squad may have come with only 10 figures, but have enough option heads and arms to make a second squad. It seems to be a waste to have all of these option parts and no bodies to put them on. In my opinion, if you recast anything for yourself or for other people it's ok regardless of what it is.

I myself have just recently got into recasting, because this is a technique which I have always wanted to master ever since I started the hobby. From what I've learned, I can tell you this. Good casting material is very expensive and time consuming. Unless you've mastered the skill, it's more effective just to go out and buy the original. As the Goblins say: "Time is money friend".

Below is a mix of original and recasted chests and legs pieces of Orks. Can you tell the difference?. At at glance, they all look the same.

Redbeard wrote:

elite_dannux wrote:No the money wont go tho the wrong place because the "problem" is so small. Id be surprised if there are eaven 100 people that makes recasts in eaven small numbers IN THE WHOLE WORLD.

The scale of the problem doesn't mean it isn't an issue. Candy bars are inexpensive, they cost the candy company a paltry amount to make. Do you believe it is okay to steal candy from a store, because the value is so small?

It's not silly, it's how society functions. We don't steal items and justify it because the value of the item was low.

See, I think this is a horrible analogy.

Recasting isn't stealing candy from the store. It's buying a candy bar from the store, going home, then making another candy bar just like it. Then the candy bar company wants to sue because you stole a candy bar from them.

This is the same as the music industry claiming multi-billion dollar losses every year due to piracy - when in reality, those aren't lost sales. Theft requires that the property owner be deprived of the stolen good.

Nor would GW suing someone for private reproduction and use stand up in any court in the U.S. Reproduction and sale *is* illegal and infringement of IP and the GW trademark. Recasting for personal use is not.

I've just purchased a $30 casting kit from Amazon. Right now my Dark Eldar army has all the blasters that it needs - but I derive them from old 3rd edition warriors with blasters, some cut down and modified dark lances, and a few of the new warriors with blasters. I've purchased enough boxes of warriors to replace every warrior and trueborn in my entire army, but each box only comes with a single blaster. I've already scoured the bitz websites to no avail, scoured the internet for trades...and everyone needs their blasters.

My two choices:
1. Keep the old blasters and the modified blasters that I've made.
2. Attempt to clone one of my new blasters in a casting, and update my old models with new warriors (of which I have plenty of extras) with casted blasters.

Neither of these actions deprives GW of property, so there's no theft. Neither of these actions results in lost revenue for GW, so there's not even a claim of lost sales.

It's perfectly legal, and exemplary of capitalism. Where GW is failing to sell me what I need, and how I need it, I will fill my need in other ways.

Dashofpepper,

You've pretty much summed it all up about recasting. I'm also new to casting stuff. Check out this site:

http://www.danperezstudios.com/workshoppages/molding_casting.htm

This is probably one of the best explanations about casting stuff. Especially if you're just starting out.

Yay Dash! I agree!

Ok i have a new oppinnion on recasting:
It's haaaaard.

I'm fine with it actually

It's perfectly legal, and exemplary of capitalism. Where GW is failing to sell me what I need, and how I need it, I will fill my need in other ways.---dashofpepper.


The idea of recasting being so bad. Fine come up with anything you got. Some compared candy bars to mini's. Okay so know you have cancer and the big pharma wants you to dish out 12,000. But I know someone down the street who is a chemist that can replicate the same thing for 1,200.

But mora thats not the same thats life or death. Well its the same core thing. Just added something that would make most Butthurt bawwers realize how stupid that the argue over it. So what then you can be the one to spend 12,000. then Ill get the 1,200 and buy another or 3 just to wave it/them in front of you while you die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also recent moves by GW...prices rising and their demand lowering. they set themselves up for it. When you realize that it only costs them about $5.00(USD) to make a landraider you get alittle mad..Granted yes they had to pay for all the materials and the modeler. But some of this things are already paid for. The supply and demand is decreasing due to various reason's. Gw raises prices and finds way's to make the models cheaper for them while hiking up prices for us and people complain recaster's about low-balling. Their products become faulty and attempt to sell you items to fix your problem. usually items you can get at a hobby store for $3.00 and GW has the same tool for 15.00..come on i assume some of you when't to school and learned some common sense of when your getting ripped off. Also so buying a paint brush from (insert store) cheaper than GW product is wrong i assume. also if you get so butt-hurt by things being copyrighted you do also understand having and using pictures of said item also infringes those same laws...most of you have pictures of the models you own. I looked for a old post on another fourm of a man and his tattoo artist got sued for having a space marine and might i add a bad ass space marine tattoo. So probally 90% of you butthurts complaining about legal and illegal...do your complaining while not breaking the same laws you trying to defend. Its kinda annoying and again ill ask if you ever learned common sense while in school?

I am pretty much indifferent on what anyone does with their recasting with the exception of selling them whether it is a bit to an entire sprue although im on the fence on bartering them.

MORA wrote:It's perfectly legal, and exemplary of capitalism. Where GW is failing to sell me what I need, and how I need it, I will fill my need in other ways.---dashofpepper.


The idea of recasting being so bad. Fine come up with anything you got. Some compared candy bars to mini's. Okay so know you have cancer and the big pharma wants you to dish out 12,000. But I know someone down the street who is a chemist that can replicate the same thing for 1,200.

But mora thats not the same thats life or death. Well its the same core thing. Just added something that would make most Butthurt bawwers realize how stupid that the argue over it. So what then you can be the one to spend 12,000. then Ill get the 1,200 and buy another or 3 just to wave it/them in front of you while you die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also recent moves by GW...prices rising and their demand lowering. they set themselves up for it. When you realize that it only costs them about $5.00(USD) to make a landraider you get alittle mad..Granted yes they had to pay for all the materials and the modeler. But some of this things are already paid for. The supply and demand is decreasing due to various reason's. Gw raises prices and finds way's to make the models cheaper for them while hiking up prices for us and people complain recaster's about low-balling. Their products become faulty and attempt to sell you items to fix your problem. usually items you can get at a hobby store for $3.00 and GW has the same tool for 15.00..come on i assume some of you when't to school and learned some common sense of when your getting ripped off. Also so buying a paint brush from (insert store) cheaper than GW product is wrong i assume. also if you get so butt-hurt by things being copyrighted you do also understand having and using pictures of said item also infringes those same laws...most of you have pictures of the models you own. I looked for a old post on another fourm of a man and his tattoo artist got sued for having a space marine and might i add a bad ass space marine tattoo. So probally 90% of you butthurts complaining about legal and illegal...do your complaining while not breaking the same laws you trying to defend. Its kinda annoying and again ill ask if you ever learned common sense while in school?

FYI--- not trying to defend prices or anything, but the molds used for plastic extrusion molding, like all GW's plastics use, can cost thousands and thousands of dollars. And they don't last forever.

Also, those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Personally, don't see the sense in buying a whole box just for an extra melta gun, but most of the time, there's an online bits store like Warstore that can help out.

The thing is i am torn between recasting OOP models and not doing it because it's still the originators IP.

I mean do you have to wait for stuff on Ebay? And then pay x times what it's worth to someone who has this? Especially when it's not valuable (not like an original painting or what have you?) so casting a part that you are then going to use? That seem fair, so long as you do not sell them.

On the Subject of GW prices, it's very simple, if you are that bothered give up your 40k Plastic "Crack" addiction. It really is that simple.... Otherwise pay the money and STFU. You cannot pay for it and complain because it won't change the companies Pricing policy, because.....drum roll please...They are still making money!!

yes stuff should be replicated that you cant buy. This all happened because GW stopped the bitz box. Myself was very annoyed when this happened.
I understand its to make more money because If I want to convert eg:
Chaos lord with abadon's Sword and cyphers back pack
Thats 3 models I'd need to buy.
Could go on and on about the annoyence of them closing the bitz side of GW.
Peace

I play orks. Those who do know that when you you buy boys, you get enough legs and torsos to make about 10 boys, either slugga/choppa or shoota variety. You get 20 sets of arms and only 10 sets of legs. I cast the legs to use my extra bits.

Recasting things that are really oop and hard to get is fine.

I'm doing it with some classic dark lances for my classic radier / ravagers.

These lances are also underslung using the gun-arm from the old Reaver Jetbikes. So it's not just 1 really hard to aqquire expensive ancient bit, it's 2!

i dont agree with recasting at all, i mean, theres a fine line between casting a batch of custom greenstuffed shoulder pads, for personal use (which i admit i do) and recasting a whole model, i convert and customise models all the time, but only cast when it is verry nessasary as i just dont agree with copying someone elses work.

I mean, you wouldnt buy 10 tactical squads and only pay for one, would you?

I would, actually, buy 10 marines and pay for 1. If they sell terrain and MC-basing kits that cheap I'm all for it.

The thing with recasting, though, is that you produce property. The actual item itself is your own since you (hopefully) legally payed for the material and equipment. It's the act of recasting a design of someone else that's illegal.

The real question is, on a moral scale, whether a company can be said to be entitled to full ownership of an idea or a design which they do not exploit or do not provide the market with adequately. It's a highly intellectual debate, mind you, since in most countries the law is clear.

I'd personally go with only recasting if it's a conversion/OOP model/or a rare bit (one per kit, etc.), though personally I don't see the problem unless it's mass produced (recasting one marine into entire squads) or selling them on (unless they're OOP/converted and the buyer knows about it.)

I report them to GW legal when I see probable recasts on Ebay but I don't necessarily think it's an innately bad thing to do. (Making profit out of genuine people is)

I would do something like recast missile pods for battlesuits because GW don't give us enough but I don't have the first clue as to how.

In all honesty I prefer paying for my mniatures anyway - if I have to save up for something I'll proxy it for now.

Davylove21 wrote:I report them to GW legal when I see probable recasts on Ebay but I don't necessarily think it's an innately bad thing to do. (Making profit out of genuine people is)

I would do something like recast missile pods for battlesuits because GW don't give us enough but I don't have the first clue as to how.

In all honesty I prefer paying for my mniatures anyway - if I have to save up for something I'll proxy it for now.

I would admire your position more, if you didn't compromise yourself by saying you'll report people but then say you'll happily cast missile launchers because GW don't give you enough? Otherwise I think you are pretty much right on.

A bit or a piece here or there or as part of a conversion is fine with me. Not much more.

I think GW dug themselves a rather big hole for recasting.

I can think of 100+ bits that could be useful recasting, not including models for Warhammer.

I can think of 0 for WarmaHordes.


If a box of Space Marines came with every possible variable bit (which it should), then recasting would probably be a lot less popular.

One of my blister pack of metal sisters of battle I bought recently came without a backpack. A mail to them about it asking if for a replacement backpack resulted in them sending the same blister again. Great customer service, but now I have the same problem: 1 backpack, 2 models.

Only option I had was to turn to Ebay it seems.

Its strange how everyone can get very uptight about the legality of re-casting when you can sculpt and use bits and pieces of original gw pieces and get some great results for sometimes less time and cost (as long as you've developed the skills)

cant see that its really viable, casting isnt easy, plus the expense?? is it worth it?

Anything you heavily modified or created yourself should be absolutely fine (IMO). The only other real exception for me is something no longer being produced. A product that is discontinued or from a limited run should be fine to replicate, because lets face it some of the old stuff looks sweet.

I have no problem with recasting. Just not selling it. Only for personal use.

Okay IMO if your products hit the insane pricing GW is doing at this moment. The pricing nowadays DISCOURAGES players to keep buying their products and scaring away most people that want to start playing.

 swordwind99 wrote:
cant see that its really viable, casting isnt easy, plus the expense?? is it worth it?

For a one-off, no.

But if you're making a mould, you are wanting more than 1.

It gets closer to "worth it" for 10+.
It's closer to cost effective at 20+
It stops being so after 50, usually (mould life comes into it as well. Many resins chemically attack the moulding rubbers - mould release can extend the life, but it's only a delaying tactic).

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Okay IMO if your products hit the insane pricing GW is doing at this moment. The pricing nowadays DISCOURAGES players to keep buying their products and scaring away most people that want to start playing.

Recasting would be a non-issue if GW, in particular, would not price their items to a point where people would consider buying a recast.

Recasting for resale is illegal, full stop. However if some Chinese garage recaster can sell a Riptide for $35.00 and still make money on it, at a third of the price of one from GW, then there is some kind of huge problem. I know all of the "hidden" expenses in making a new model like that, but I would prefer a fast nickel over a slow dime, and not have to compete with recasts.

I support recasting, but only because I feel GW brought this on themselves. They are the very stereotype of an evil corporation.

Call me immoral if you like, but if GW had acted differently, more of my money would fall down their pockets.

All in. I don't have a problem with recasting or selling. If the product was at the right price point, or included the right options, then there is no demand for recasts. We're in a capitalist society, there is a need, and the recasters are fulfilling this need. Protection of IP is denying competition, which goes against capitalism. Companies can produce something very similar to an iPhone, but they either don't do make it as well, or they don't market it as well, so people buy the real deal. Apple have stated they won't bother taking out lawsuits against companies who have stolen their ideas because they make a superior product, market it extremely well, have it do everything their customers want, and sell it at a price that consumers can live with. If GW did the same, the re-casters die.

I support recasting, if only because that is the only way to get new Specialist models now.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Okay IMO if your products hit the insane pricing GW is doing at this moment. The pricing nowadays DISCOURAGES players to keep buying their products and scaring away most people that want to start playing.

I know it did for me. Haven't bought a model in years. At least the books seem reasonably priced. (Books as in Black Library)

I personally think if you are say replacing a missing weapon/item (say you had 3 meltaguns, but lose one) or say you only have one item that cant be acquired individually and you need more for some army then its fine, but only if you cant get the item legitimately, and I don't think its right to ever sell recasts.

Legally speaking:

Morally speaking: (for personal use only)

Dont ask

Dont tell.

Slip me some free models

I think It's fine until you sell em. Then you're directly harming the company (I dont care if you sell GW recasts though. They are EXTREMELY overpriced.)

I feel that recasting OOP can sometimes devalue the existing copies, and it's a little unfair on those who saved them or kept pieces as investments. To me it's a case-by-case thing.
Sometimes it does, sometimes it does not.

Recently it's been on my mind, as I've had to buy what is quite likely a recast piece to get parts to repair an OOP kit. Did I want to give that person money? No.
But, otherwise I have a huge chunk of stuff in my house that I can do nothing with, I already paid for it, and the original company washed their hands and basically said, "See if you can find someone to quietly cast the parts."

I don't really believe in the merit of pirating anything that's currently in production, but I'm not going to judge people who do. I've seen reviews of folks getting really excited by the quality of Chinacast items, and it confuses me on a visceral level.

I'm one of the few who disagrees with recasting oop models. I don't think that not being able to buy them new, or not wanting to overpay entitles you to buy illegally, if you missed out you missed out. Wanting it doesn't make it ok. I've wanted the 2000AD klegg models for years but didn't want to pay inflated ebay prices. I kept my eyes open over the years, and finally got them for £8 this week.

It also begin to infringe on LE models, and devalues them and removes the specialness of having them.

Absolutely. And it also only takes one person along the purchasing chain to not realise what they have is a recast, and it becomes a muddy mess. My female IG commissar is a recast, I'm almost certain (blank casting tab and bright, shining edges). However I'm also certain the person who sold her to me didn't know this, as it was part of his son's eBayed collection.

I am in support of some OOP works being recast for very specific reasons. If something is broken, or in some extremely old cases has an issue like lead rot, I don't see the harm in replacing or preserving your own copy. In some collections, folk have one or two of the only existing copies of some minis, for now defunct companies. Admittedly, archiving is very different to reselling.