Trollkin called Fennblades calmly wait shoulder to shoulder—wicked hooked greatswords raised at the ready—listening to the approach of thundering hooves. Some duck lances to sweep blades through the legs of mounts while others swing their blades straight into the chests of the riders. The result is always the same, as Fennblades stand victorious over the bodies of the slain.

Classification: Plastic Unit
Price: $49.99*
Model Count: 10
*Product information and prices subject to change






The blight has twisted the minds as well as the flesh of these ogrun, addicting them to the joy of bloodlust. If their enemies are not killed outright from the impact of their spears, the tremendous lengths of wood dangling from the creatures’ vitals can trip them up long enough for the blighted ogrun to close and finish the job.

Classification: Plastic Unit
Price: $44.99*
Model Count: 5

Very nice indeed...

Those are plastic? They look great! Perhaps there's hope for PP after all.

10 plastic for $50 or 5 for $45??

Where is the howling, rending of clothes and gnashing of teeth. Come on people, how many threads about GW and their pricing? This is worse - this makes goldswords actually look worth their weight. I still don't buy the argument that you need less models etc to play WM so it is cheaper, because you build up a good WM army and it isn't cheap.

I dunno, just smacks of hypocrisy to me - what does PP have to do before its players actually start to complain?

Awesome! The spearchukkas are about the same price as GW Terminators! Go PP!

Thought they were pretty good till I saw the price.

Have they started charging $95 per 5 cavalry models yet like the GW Blood Knights. I'm still laughing at the guys at the flgs that think WM is the cheaper game.

They're standing on 1.5" bases.

It's really not a cheaper game. It was when it started, so that impression has carried over through the years, but it's not really true anymore. No all PP has going for them is an awesome background, superior game rules, excellent quality books, and models that are easily on par with GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

malfred wrote:They're standing on 1.5" bases.

Read: 40mm equivalents.

Looking very nice.

The warspears are ogre sized miniatures for those of you who don't know. Hence the higher price per figure.

The Power Cosmic wrote:It's really not a cheaper game. It was when it started, so that impression has carried over through the years, but it's not really true anymore. No all PP has going for them is an awesome background, superior game rules, excellent quality books, and models that are easily on par with GW.

Only if you like top heavy jacks, static models, body proportions that are off, blandness in the majority of the range, swords that look like they do blunt force trauma rather than cut and elves with ears soooo long I swear even the model blushes in shame.

I have tried to get into this game on several occasions and each time I have bought $200 worth of models and each time I open a blister or two and then take them all back.

Many PP models have such aweful sculpting that the level of suck is sucktastic and they should be in a museum of sucking in the section called sucketh the most. And then have a bag over them.

Plastic Warspears? That is cool. Five in a box, right.

fullheadofhair wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:It's really not a cheaper game. It was when it started, so that impression has carried over through the years, but it's not really true anymore. No all PP has going for them is an awesome background, superior game rules, excellent quality books, and models that are easily on par with GW.

Only if you like top heavy jacks, static models, body proportions that are off, blandness in the majority of the range, swords that look like they do blunt force trauma rather than cut and elves with ears soooo long I swear even the model blushes in shame.

The bulky upper bodies on 'jacks are a stylistic choice, so if you don't like them, that's just not your thing, nothing I can do about it.

Early PP models could be pretty static, yes, and some had bad proportions, but the same was true for early GW models. Since then, it's just not true. While they're not all gems :coughfenriscough:, they've got all the dynamism of GW sculpts. Check out the Mage Hunter Strike Force and tell me they're static.

As for the swords, if you're talking about metal models then that's just a fact of the casting process. You can't cast thin metal blades like you can in plastic, not even GW can.

Elf ears, really? Well, you're right, they're not GW elves, that's for sure. You know what else will probably get your dander up, the dwarves don't all have beards either. I know, shock and horror.

I agree with fullheadofhair, except without some of his veracity. The game just doesn't appeal, and the stylistic choice coupled with the gameplay, and expense, make it hard to justify jumping ship.

Now if only they have a futuristic game.

Cool models. Gonna need some brass rods for those spears.

Oh and there's probably less gnashing of teeth at the price because the models are pretty large. That and I think less PP fans have the 'hate it but still buy it' mentality.

Moz wrote:Cool models. Gonna need some brass rods for those spears.

Why? They're plastic.

Their plastic is closer to resin, so I'm betting that the spears will suffer bendy issues.

skrulnik wrote:

Moz wrote:Cool models. Gonna need some brass rods for those spears.

Why? They're plastic.

I expect an "exactly" post in response.

Moz wrote:Cool models. Gonna need some brass rods for those spears.

Oh and there's probably less gnashing of teeth at the price because the models are pretty large. That and I think less PP fans have the 'hate it but still buy it' mentality.

I can't think of something people didn't want to buy that they felt they had to buy.

Other than Mr. 30 Bane Knights. But he was an army hopper. If he played 40k he'd
probably do the ebay shuffle with the release of every new Army Book.

The detail on these plastics is awesome! I would have no complaint about the price considering their size and quality if I played either army.

The Power Cosmic wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:It's really not a cheaper game. It was when it started, so that impression has carried over through the years, but it's not really true anymore. No all PP has going for them is an awesome background, superior game rules, excellent quality books, and models that are easily on par with GW.

Only if you like top heavy jacks, static models, body proportions that are off, blandness in the majority of the range, swords that look like they do blunt force trauma rather than cut and elves with ears soooo long I swear even the model blushes in shame.

The bulky upper bodies on 'jacks are a stylistic choice, so if you don't like them, that's just not your thing, nothing I can do about it.

Early PP models could be pretty static, yes, and some had bad proportions, but the same was true for early GW models. Since then, it's just not true. While they're not all gems :coughfenriscough:, they've got all the dynamism of GW sculpts. Check out the Mage Hunter Strike Force and tell me they're static.

As for the swords, if you're talking about metal models then that's just a fact of the casting process. You can't cast thin metal blades like you can in plastic, not even GW can.

Elf ears, really? Well, you're right, they're not GW elves, that's for sure. You know what else will probably get your dander up, the dwarves don't all have beards either. I know, shock and horror.

Thank you sir you said everything i wanted to but was to polite to form into sentances

Those are both some pretty cool units. I was looking forward to seeing the Warspears, and they don't disappoint. If I didn't already know they were plastic, I don't think I would have realized it. It's good to see that PP seems to be off to a good start with their plastic stuff.

They are expensive. But the good news is, these are full sized units, aren't they? Plus, as others have said, the Warspears are ogre-sized models, and they're still $5 cheaper than GW Terminators. The price on the Fennblades is a little bit harder to swallow, I'll admit - but they are nice models, all the same.

Cool stuff.

The Power Cosmic wrote:It's really not a cheaper game. It was when it started, so that impression has carried over through the years, but it's not really true anymore. No all PP has going for them is an awesome background, superior game rules, excellent quality books, and models that are easily on par with GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

malfred wrote:They're standing on 1.5" bases.

Read: 40mm equivalents.

Well when PP makes models/army lists obsolete and brings the total of the PP models I can no longer use to somewhere around the $1500 mark that my GW genestealer cult and LATD are hovering at then I'll worry about the prices of PP models a little more until then I'll just wink and laugh at the GW fanboy trolls like the ones populating this thread...

Railguns wrote:Have they started charging $95 per 5 cavalry models yet like the GW Blood Knights. I'm still laughing at the guys at the flgs that think WM is the cheaper game.

Actually, PP was the originator of the $100 unit of cavalry

http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cygnar/units/storm-lance-cavalry

Storm Lance cavalry, $19.99 per blister of 1 knight. I think GW actually copied PP in that category

Moz wrote:That and I think less PP fans have the 'hate it but still buy it' mentality.

And GW fans don't?

C'mon man.

Hey, 10 Trolls of $50 is a hell of a lot better than $50 for 5 like they used to be.

Being Trolls, these are as large as Terminators (if not slightly larger), and you get twice as many for the same price.

That is a better deal that GW, sorry. No argument from me.

CT GAMER wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:It's really not a cheaper game. It was when it started, so that impression has carried over through the years, but it's not really true anymore. No all PP has going for them is an awesome background, superior game rules, excellent quality books, and models that are easily on par with GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

malfred wrote:They're standing on 1.5" bases.

Read: 40mm equivalents.

Well when PP makes models/army lists obsolete and brings the total of the PP models I can no longer use to somewhere around the $1500 mark that my GW genestealer cult and LATD are hovering at then I'll worry about the prices of PP models a little more until then I'll just wink and laugh at the GW fanboy trolls like the ones populating this thread...

Have there been that many of them in here yet?

Anyway, you have to admit, they are rather expensive.

Maybe PP got a sneak preview of GW's 2009 report and 'borrowed' the reasoning behind GW's plastic pricing?

Alpharius wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:It's really not a cheaper game. It was when it started, so that impression has carried over through the years, but it's not really true anymore. No all PP has going for them is an awesome background, superior game rules, excellent quality books, and models that are easily on par with GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

malfred wrote:They're standing on 1.5" bases.

Read: 40mm equivalents.

Well when PP makes models/army lists obsolete and brings the total of the PP models I can no longer use to somewhere around the $1500 mark that my GW genestealer cult and LATD are hovering at then I'll worry about the prices of PP models a little more until then I'll just wink and laugh at the GW fanboy trolls like the ones populating this thread...

Have there been that many of them in here yet?

Anyway, you have to admit, they are rather expensive.

Maybe PP got a sneak preview of GW's 2009 report and 'borrowed' the reasoning behind GW's plastic pricing?

Those blighted War spears are bigger and more detailed then GW terminators and most likely more open to varied poses considering the stiffness of design of the terminators. Which is overpriced?

To be honest, $9 to PP or $10 to GW is essentially the same to me, in that I won't pay that much for either model.

GW basically priced me out of new armies the price rise before the most recent one, and PP has priced me out of new stuff with their most recent price hikes.

So I think they're both overpriced.

JohnHwangDD wrote:To be honest, $9 to PP or $10 to GW is essentially the same to me, in that I won't pay that much for either model.

GW basically priced me out of new armies the price rise before the most recent one, and PP has priced me out of new stuff with their most recent price hikes.

So I think they're both overpriced.

QFT. They are both overpriced, and are competetively priced to each other.

You guys talk about overpriced - however take note on this.

If you go to online retailers- Hordes/WM is usually priced cheaper.






Go to the warstore - 38$ can get you a starting force.

Go on ebay - prices are even more cheaper.


Its a much affordable game - besides the superior rules/gameplay.

The game - doesnt have to e played huge army sized as 40k - however you can, if you wanted to.

I actually agree with everyone, if that's even possible on the internet.

As a troll player I couldn't be happier with the sculpts, but as a consumer I will most likely only buy them from an online discounter.

This sucks as I have a few FLGS I'd like to support. These days I tend to only buy a few things in there a month just to make sure I'm not being a total a-hole. It used to be the bulk (check that, all) of my purchases were in a store, but these days PP and GW are pushing it too far to constantly pay retail when there are other options.

With the cost of living in the US now-a-days, I don't begrudge what PP charges for models. I just may not buy it right away. Noone is holding a gun to you head saying "Buy This." Its like the price of GW tanks now-a-days, I'm keeping the same line of thought, I'll buy it, if and when, I can afford it.

The days of being able to buy an army on minimum wage and still have money to waste are over.

Why does everybody always compare these releases to the terminators instead of the Ogre Kingdoms Bulls (six models) or Ironguts (four models) for $40?

Ghaz wrote:Why does everybody always compare these releases to the terminators instead of the Ogre Kingdoms Bulls (six models) or Ironguts (four models) for $40?

Because a standard Troll infantry model isn't a large as a WHFB Ogre. A light Warbeast is close to that size, but a standard Troll is small, more closely sized to a Terminator.

Besides all - Its time for OGRUN TIME.

Ghaz wrote:Why does everybody always compare these releases to the terminators instead of the Ogre Kingdoms Bulls (six models) or Ironguts (four models) for $40?

Because that puts a chink in the argument.

Anyway, people like CT GAMER really annoy me. Just because I think PP is as bad as GW (if not worse coz the hide it better) doesn't make me a GW fanoy. It is possible to dislike more than one company at a time if you are of average intelligence .... ah, just realized....

10 for $50 plastic models is obscene. I thought the goldswords were obscene at $42. I wonder if they ever do a jack it will be the price of the plastic steam tank. Anyway, size real doesn't matter - the cost to produce one v's a larger model is negligible on a per model basis.

Still hate their sculpting and I still think it sucks.

Price wise: Damn.

Model Wise: Damn fine!

Some great sculpts, for sure.

Very pretty but I will stick with 40K.

Well, to those of you who think the sculpts suck or that they are overpriced, what kind of models do you like then? An example or two of sculpting that doesn't suck? Or a box of miniatures that you think is fairly priced?

Mattlov wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Why does everybody always compare these releases to the terminators instead of the Ogre Kingdoms Bulls (six models) or Ironguts (four models) for $40?

Because a standard Troll infantry model isn't a large as a WHFB Ogre. A light Warbeast is close to that size, but a standard Troll is small, more closely sized to a Terminator.

So they decide to compare them to five smaller, more expensive models instead of six larger and cheaper models?

Ghaz wrote:

Mattlov wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Why does everybody always compare these releases to the terminators instead of the Ogre Kingdoms Bulls (six models) or Ironguts (four models) for $40?

Because a standard Troll infantry model isn't a large as a WHFB Ogre. A light Warbeast is close to that size, but a standard Troll is small, more closely sized to a Terminator.

So they decide to compare them to five smaller, more expensive models instead of six larger and cheaper models?

No, the comparison is to similarly sized model. Why would you compare them to different sized model? That would like comparing prices of Mega Armored Nob and Black Orcs.

Hordini wrote:Well, to those of you who think the sculpts suck or that they are overpriced, what kind of models do you like then? An example or two of sculpting that doesn't suck? Or a box of miniatures that you think is fairly priced?

I am a big Rackham metal fan, though sometimes the prices of those made me whince - I have a large devourers army and some others just for the sake of painting.

I like Tom Meier work. I also like the larger scale sculpts coming from Ultraforge $65 for the treewoman btw - bueatifully cast model. I like the work coming out of Dark Sword Miniatures. One I do like for realism is Ebob Miniatures - serious considering buying his horses and camels - camels for the w1n!!

But at the end of the day, at $35 for a box of 16-20 minis you cannot beat the value of warhammer troop boxes - DE Cold Ones are 5 for $22. SM tactical box @ $35 isn't bad either. Now please don't say I am a fanboy because GW stupidity annoys me as much as the next person. Please note I haven't included Perry Bros - hate their sculpting more than PP, especially their horses.

Cruentus wrote:

Railguns wrote:Have they started charging $95 per 5 cavalry models yet like the GW Blood Knights. I'm still laughing at the guys at the flgs that think WM is the cheaper game.

Actually, PP was the originator of the $100 unit of cavalry

http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cygnar/units/storm-lance-cavalry

Storm Lance cavalry, $19.99 per blister of 1 knight. I think GW actually copied PP in that category

The trouble with PP cavalry is that it's all metal, each cavalry unit is vastly different
from the other factions' cavalry units (requiring completely different sculpts) and
each cavalry model is the size of a warjack.

People don't tend to buy them unless they really want them.

Mattlov wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

Mattlov wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Why does everybody always compare these releases to the terminators instead of the Ogre Kingdoms Bulls (six models) or Ironguts (four models) for $40?

Because a standard Troll infantry model isn't a large as a WHFB Ogre. A light Warbeast is close to that size, but a standard Troll is small, more closely sized to a Terminator.

So they decide to compare them to five smaller, more expensive models instead of six larger and cheaper models?

No, the comparison is to similarly sized model. Why would you compare them to different sized model? That would like comparing prices of Mega Armored Nob and Black Orcs.

Irregardless of the comparator - bigger, smaller, whatever, $50 for 10 plastic models and $45 for 5 is just obscene. The only way I can think that companies can justify it is if they know that their base customer size isn't going to grow significantly and you know the elasticity/inelasticity of your bases customer you would soak them for every penny.

RogueMarket wrote:
Besides all - Its time for OGRUN TIME.

Too bad eThagrosh works really well with more warbeasts and all that Ogrun is
going to eat up points fast.

WRT costs
In 1994 10 Space Marines were $30. All Metal. Minwage was 4.25. A box of Marines cost over 7 hours labor at that rate
Or 30 Plastic were $30.
2009 10 Sternguard are $70. Costs 9 hours labor.
Or 10 Plastic SM are $35. Minwage(IL) is $8. Costs a little over 4 hours.

PP Trollkin above at $50 cost about 7 hours labor.

Not that everyone is at min wage. But I think it is a useful baseline for discussion like this.

Trollkin are a bit bigger than Termies, are they not?
I know that my Black Ogrun are bout that same size. Definitely not as big as GW Ogres.
Are warmongers bigger than Black Ogrun or the Bokur?

Mattlov wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

Mattlov wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Why does everybody always compare these releases to the terminators instead of the Ogre Kingdoms Bulls (six models) or Ironguts (four models) for $40?

Because a standard Troll infantry model isn't a large as a WHFB Ogre. A light Warbeast is close to that size, but a standard Troll is small, more closely sized to a Terminator.

So they decide to compare them to five smaller, more expensive models instead of six larger and cheaper models?

No, the comparison is to similarly sized model. Why would you compare them to different sized model? That would like comparing prices of Mega Armored Nob and Black Orcs.

You totally missed my point. Although the Ogres are larger, they're less expensive. Larger should mean that they'd be more expensive. Since GW's not consistent with their own models, how can you justify using them as a comparison for somebody else's models? Or you could also claim that PP's models are an even worse deal since GW sells larger models for a lower price.

Wait, is that the two wrongs make a right argument?

Alpharius wrote:Wait, is that the two wrongs make a right argument?

shhhh, don't say that too loud of "the Nurg" will come into the thread an produce 40 lines of unreadable writing/ gobbledegook that will actually prove that two wrongs do make a right - many posters will lose the will to live whilst others will bleed from the eyeballs after reading it. Many will be catatonic unable to make a decision as simpe as moving after reading the 10 pages of unintelligble replies where no-one will remember what was posted or what their reason for living is. However, I will remain short, fat, bald and clueless.

Alpharius wrote:Wait, is that the two wrongs make a right argument?

No, it's the "GW's pricing is so whacked you can't use it for a comparison" argument

Ghaz wrote:Why does everybody always compare these releases to the terminators instead of the Ogre Kingdoms Bulls (six models) for $40?

Because everybody plays Spaz Marinz, and nobody plays Ogres?

(OK, I exaggerate, but not by much)

Cruentus wrote:

Railguns wrote:Have they started charging $95 per 5 cavalry models yet like the GW Blood Knights. I'm still laughing at the guys at the flgs that think WM is the cheaper game.

Actually, PP was the originator of the $100 unit of cavalry

http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cygnar/units/storm-lance-cavalry

Storm Lance cavalry, $19.99 per blister of 1 knight. I think GW actually copied PP in that category

Ahahaha. Thats hilarious. I remember seeing the then-new Chaos Knights from the last big WFB Chaos release (Somewhere areound storm of Chaos?) and thinking that $45 for 5 guys was pushing it. These days I can't help but laugh at this.



Edit: The Fenblades are the one time the PP Bludgenswords style is acceptable; if they are to be used as anti-cavalry models.

I know it's already been said, but despite them looking nice why do they cost so much?

We can all thank GW for setting the standard for pricing -_-
great now other companies does the same

Wargaming is simply an obscenely expensive hobby these days. It won't be long before it prices itself out of the market, with console games, WoW and alcohol positioning themselves as vastly cheaper vices for potential customers to ruin their lives with. We might very well be the last generation of wargamers. An amusing thought.

Railguns wrote:Edit: The Fenblades are the one time the PP Bludgenswords style is acceptable; if they are to be used as anti-cavalry models.

Oddly enough, the one model I own who could get away with having a blunt sword, doesn't. I mean, I won't cut myself on the blade anytime soon, but it's a decently fine representation of what a big choppy steel girder would look like

Also - when it comes to it - its not the actual material that ensures the high price increase.


Look at the dreadought - just a few sprues - yet 40$.

Look at Special characters now - some number 20$.


I personally believe- stats have to play a role too - in influencing price.


And Warspears aren't that bad ;P

Quick question... do these plastics get glued with common plastic glue? Someone said they are more like resin?

I think - and heard.. they are more like resin.

Thanks.
Well, for me one of the best things of buying plastic kits is that they are easy to glue and fast to built with just some drops of plastic glue here and there... Resin is easier than metal to built but still needs pinning and is much more time consuming than regular plastics.

I'm going to buy the new jack extreme, draco and 3 commandos to finish my khadors sometime in the future and call it off. Cant justify the high prices of new plastics anymore.
I can take high prices for some big chunks of metal jacks though.

I tend to pick several companies ranges for diferent reasons... I choose warmachine because they were the big steampunk metal things for painting in town... with plastics they are no longer on that boat, big part of the charm of these beasts, for me at least, was the metal weight, If I want to have fun with plastics GW covers that already for me.

Like rackham, pp shifting to plastics will loose my money, although these are light years ahead of rackham plastic crap.

Good models design overall with these new releases, just not inside of what I'm after at PP.

Personally, I prefer PP's sculpts, background and game. The one thing I don't like is the marketing model. Each book escalates the power level, so you have to buy new stuff.

Less of an issue with GW, although WFB Daemons have moved the goalposts quite a way.

Does pricing mean I won't be getting PP or GW toys? No. I'll get less, and I'll get them from discounters, but I'm in this hobby for the long run.

hammerofulric wrote:The one thing I don't like is the marketing model. Each book escalates the power level, so you have to buy new stuff.

See, I don't get this. Some of the most effective armies can be made using only units from the first 2 books. Now, the upcoming mk2 rules may adjust the power levels (in a good way), but the fact remains. The problem is that playing the same limited army list for 5+ years can get really boring, so we buy more new stuff. No one "has" to, we want to. Also, the release model of PP, namely releasing something for every army through the years makes it look like they're forcing your hand (and wallet) more than GW's splash release model. But if PP did codex-style releases rather than buffet-style ones, there'd be less arguing about "having" to buy the new stuff because there simply wouldn't be as much new stuff to factor in.

Ghaz wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Wait, is that the two wrongs make a right argument?

No, it's the "GW's pricing is so whacked you can't use it for a comparison" argument

Touché!

And that good point is sad but true...

Moz wrote:Their plastic is closer to resin, so I'm betting that the spears will suffer bendy issues.

Heat with a hair dryer bend to shape then dunk in cold water.

And you will need super glue to put them together.

hammerofulric wrote:Personally, I prefer PP's sculpts, background and game. The one thing I don't like is the marketing model. Each book escalates the power level, so you have to buy new stuff.

Not true at all.

I regularly see people still running lists made up mostly of Prime models and winning bioth in casual and competitive play...

Heck most of my own lists are predominately made up of Prim/escalation models (by choice) and I'll confidently take on any list you wanna put together of fancy new toys.

It doesn't really matter if you have some fancy new toy because my old stuff is still as deadly as it was before and all those fancy toys you think are gonna up your power level are meaningless when your caster is on his/her back pushing up daisies...

malfred wrote:People don't tend to buy them unless they really want them.

Or they want to win games at competitive tournies. While people can be competitive with Prime-only models, PP has been at the forefront of codex creep. It's just that every faction gets the PSB-equivalent at the same time, so that somehow balances it.

PP makes a solid game and good minis, but it's a different style than 40k or LotR.

And if we want cheap, we should all be playing something at 10 or 15mm using cheap rules and whatever minis you want. Compare sci-fi 10mm to GW epic. Or some WW2 minis to Flames of War. There's cheaper models out there, but they're not the 'official' models, so we tend not to buy them.

I collect Trollblood, and I am very happy with these great sculpts.

What I am not so happy about is their scale: they are a head taller than Kriel Warriors, Champions, etc, and much more massive while they have weaker physical stats (even though they are also more heavily armoured). Someone made a size comparison picture at Privateer's site. They are almost as big as Trolls like Axers and Impalers.

Lately there seems to be one kind of quality control issue after the other every time Privateer releases new models. Some examples: the Cygnar Black 13th's scale was so small they looked like children compared to the rest of the miniatures, Epic Hoarluk has less toes than Prime Hoarluk, Molik Karn has too many fingers according to standard Privateer Cyclops anatomy, etc etc.

With Privateer's models I have sort of a love/hate relationship. I think 25% to 35% of their sculpt are fine/good/great, but the rest is either disappointing or flat out garbage. I'm mostly into that game for their larger/medium sized models. I think almost all of their current troops models are hideous. These plastics look very good, and with these they are definitely heading into the right direction, but yet there still is the scale issue. They seriously need to fix their lack of sufficient quality control if they ever want to compete with GW in the troops boxes department, because Imo GW is currently FAR superior when it come to plastic troops.

I also hate how the Retribution warjacks have these penis shaped heads and other dubious body parts. The armour of their main troops also looks like crap Imo. It's a shame because I had high hopes for that army, but 65% of the sculpts ruined it again for me.

whitedragon wrote:

Moz wrote:That and I think less PP fans have the 'hate it but still buy it' mentality.

And GW fans don't?

C'mon man.

I'll stand by this. And it's not necessarily because GW is evil/worse game/any other flame bait. But because GW is the market leader by far, and has been around for a very long time. So the average player playing GW products is more likely to be entrenched in the game. GW also sets the prices we come to expect, and GW is quite possibly the only game that you have access to (with other players). So if GW releases 5 new plastic terminators for $50, a very vocal portion of the playerbase will decry this as bloody murder - and then buy them anyways. Either to keep current the Spehz murinz army that they've been collecting for 12 years, or because they want to play tabletop wargames and GW is the only game in town.

PP games on the other hand are more of an elective expense. If you're playing WM/H, it's probably because you want to be playing that instead of a competing GW product which is likely more available in your area. If you are playing something because you enjoy it, and not necessarily because you feel like there are no other choices available - expense of models becomes less of an issue. Less of an issue worth crying about anyways.

Beyond that we can get into the behaviors of the companies themselves, leading to the inevitable comparisons of GW customer behavior and Stockholm syndrome - but that's a flame contest for another post.

A friend of mine has a theory - that PP appeals more to people who tend towards the collectible gaming (clicks or cards) market. As a result, they expect to 'have to' buy the 'next big thing' to stay competitive in big tournies. Now, with PP the 'next big thing' might be a new solo or caster, which is a relatively minor investment for someone. With GW, the 'next big thing' is something like a unit of Nob Bikers or IG with PSB - both of which may require the player to buy a whole new (or nearly a whole) army.

With PP's release schedule, you could probably buy all the 'new' things for a faction on a budget of about $30-40 a month over the whole year. With GW's release schedule, you may drop $400 on a new army once or twice a year. If it's once a year, it's the same 'cost', but most people have an easier time finding $40 a month for a year than $400 once a year.

What they are doing is for MK2 next year

dietrich wrote:

malfred wrote:People don't tend to buy them unless they really want them.

......PP has been at the forefront of codex creep.......

LMAO...This is the funniest statement I have read on dakka in years. Have you actually played a PP game? or seen the codex's GW has put out over the last ten years?

You are all aware that these box sets are the full, maximum size you can field those units in, right? Not half a unit or a third of a unit or three fifths of a unit but a full unit.

Cyric036 wrote:

dietrich wrote:

malfred wrote:People don't tend to buy them unless they really want them.

......PP has been at the forefront of codex creep.......

LMAO...This is the funniest statement I have read on dakka in years. Have you actually played a PP game? or seen the codex's GW has put out over the last ten years?

Yes and yes. PP is just as bad as GW, it's just that since all four factions get updated at once, the balance is they all get some OTT wicked combo at the same time. How many Bane Knights and Tartarus did you see in the last few years? How many competitive builds included Bane Thralls? GW may have blazed the trail, but PP has quickly moved along it.

dietrich wrote:

Cyric036 wrote:

dietrich wrote:

malfred wrote:People don't tend to buy them unless they really want them.

......PP has been at the forefront of codex creep.......

LMAO...This is the funniest statement I have read on dakka in years. Have you actually played a PP game? or seen the codex's GW has put out over the last ten years?

Yes and yes. PP is just as bad as GW, it's just that since all four factions get updated at once, the balance is they all get some OTT wicked combo at the same time. How many Bane Knights and Tartarus did you see in the last few years? How many competitive builds included Bane Thralls? GW may have blazed the trail, but PP has quickly moved along it.

Players blaze that trail.

Too many players spend way too much time trying to prove their worth as human beings by crushing other people at games of toy soldiers. If thats your thing, good for you, enjoy, but that does not mean that every model/unit you have declared "useless" is indeed so...

Forums like this, the PP forums, etc. are filled with people who think you must find the ultimate distilled unstoppable list and that that is the only list to play. Fact is there are very few models/units in Wm that are useless. Just about every model/unit in Wm can be put to a use or comboed with something in some way to make it useful/dangerous. PP has done a pretty decent job of ensuring this for the most part. This doesn't stop the power gamers from still trying to convince everyone that only they know the right way to play faction x though, god bless them...

CT GAMER wrote:Too many players spend way too much time trying to prove their worth as human beings by crushing other people at games of toy soldiers. If thats your thing, good for you, enjoy, but that does not mean that every model/unit you have declared "useless" is indeed so...

You mean that crushing that 12 year old at the FLGS on Sunday doesn't prove my manhood?

Sorry, I'm in a grouchy mood this morning. Most of PP stuff is fine. A few things get through that seem way OTT (not like GW ever does that! ). The cavalry seemed to be a breaking point in Mk I.

dietrich wrote:
Yes and yes. PP is just as bad as GW, it's just that since all four factions get updated at once, the balance is they all get some OTT wicked combo at the same time. How many Bane Knights and Tartarus did you see in the last few years? How many competitive builds included Bane Thralls? GW may have blazed the trail, but PP has quickly moved along it.

See I don't think what PP does is codex creep, so it just may be a difference in perception. IMHO: Codex creep is when one army is improved by the updating of their codex, while everyone else remains static. PP updates everybody, I don't call that codex creep, I call that an attempt(not always successfully) at keeping balance across lists.

I think we can agree that with any new release(GW or PP) the point is to sell new models and the best way either company seems to do that is by making them appear a teensy, whinsy, slightly, superbly better (definition of 'better', is wide open though) than what was already out there. With a GW codex release its not about balance across the armies, its about selling models for the current army. With Privateer, at least its about selling models across all factions and theoretically, balance across the armies.

While your statement about the appearance of BK and Tart Spam is totally valid, an all Prime Cryx force is still a viable competitive list, its just harder to work with. (Granted then its usually some kind of McThrall spam)

When PP puts out their "Forces of Warmachine" books early next year, then PP will have codex creep, if only for six months or so.

dietrich wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Too many players spend way too much time trying to prove their worth as human beings by crushing other people at games of toy soldiers. If thats your thing, good for you, enjoy, but that does not mean that every model/unit you have declared "useless" is indeed so...

You mean that crushing that 12 year old at the FLGS on Sunday doesn't prove my manhood?

During my apprenticeship with warmachine, I had the joy to face up against a 13 year old
Terminus player. I don't think him beating me at the time proved anything...

malfred wrote:

dietrich wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Too many players spend way too much time trying to prove their worth as human beings by crushing other people at games of toy soldiers. If thats your thing, good for you, enjoy, but that does not mean that every model/unit you have declared "useless" is indeed so...

You mean that crushing that 12 year old at the FLGS on Sunday doesn't prove my manhood?

During my apprenticeship with warmachine, I had the joy to face up against a 13 year old
Terminus player. I don't think him beating me at the time proved anything...

Drawomancer wrote:You are all aware that these box sets are the full, maximum size you can field those units in, right? Not half a unit or a third of a unit or three fifths of a unit but a full unit.

So, just like a GW SM Tactical Squad?

You never are forced to buy everything.

You never need the newest unit.


Warspears are good - but not super omg godly.

They are just nice to have for legion.


But I'll tell you - legion can do VERY well without ;P


VERY WELL.


=)

There's been a bit of scale creep in the trollkin, and now in the blighted Orgun, but that seems to be mostly financial. Both were probably undersized in metal. Aren't marine Dreadnoughts as topheavy as warjacks?

As for the cost per model, PP is between 10 and 20% more expensive while needing 25% or so less models. So they're both bastards on a per model basis.

Its nice of PP to have moved to full sized units per box but my 40k armies are IG and Tyranids - I'm biased. Excuse me if I'm wrong but aren't tactical marines the *only* marine unit sold at full size?

Just a quick point. There are good points all around here on both sides, and everyone has pretty much proven that on a per model bases GW and PP are roughly the same price.

If we all agree with this, then that still means that Warmachine is more affordable than 40k, if only because it is a skirmish game and requires a lower model count for competative play.

I don't care about competitive play. It makes us all jerks for far too long. I'd rather go play a game, have fun, and tip back a pint with the folks I'll play with.

Hey, get that filthy logic outta here, Russ. This is the internet!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oldgrue wrote:I don't care about competitive play. It makes us all jerks for far too long. I'd rather go play a game, have fun, and tip back a pint with the folks I'll play with.

QFT!

I find that I buy a lot more warmachine stuff than I did for 40k though, effectively making it more expensive. WM/H has a sneaky way of getting you in the door for <$200 for a nice fully competitive army, but then you think
- "Oh, if I just switch casters this would be a whole different army" $10 down
- "This new caster's feat is wicked with unit X" $40 down
- "These new guys need some support to really make it happen" $20 down
- "I want to play a game with just jacks!" $80 down
- "How about this caster instead?" $10 down
- "What if I swap these for those, rad" $40 down
- "Legends is out, sweeet!" $30 down
- "No Quarter magazine has new model rules in it, ka-ching" - $7 down

Repeat until you get into a new faction. It's a vicious cycle of finding things that you want, then buying them and having fun with it. I know it's crazy.

RussWakelin wrote:Just a quick point. There are good points all around here on both sides, and everyone has pretty much proven that on a per model bases GW and PP are roughly the same price.

If we all agree with this, then that still means that Warmachine is more affordable than 40k, if only because it is a skirmish game and requires a lower model count for competative play.

Thats not true because of the way points, etc scale in 40k vs Warmachine/Hordes.

For example, when I started Circle, the 30 dollar Primal + 45 dollar starter box was good enough to get started, but it cost me almost another 100 dollars to go to 500 points. (Extra warpwolf 30, tharn ravagers 60, lord of the feast 10) If I wanted to be more competetive or go up to 750, with the option to swap out units it would cost me another 150 dollars or so. (Wolves of orboros 50, Gorax 20, Kruger 10, Baldur 10, pureblood warpwolf 40, Woldwarden 40)

So I just dropped 300 bucks and I can play several 300-500 point games, and 1 750 point game with everything I have.

For 300 dollars you can make any number of 1500 point armies that are about as competitive as the Hordes army I had, and if you did orks or marines, and made use of AOBR, you could do even better.

Please show me how I'm wrong because I'd love to play a cheaper game, but the numbers just don't support it.

WEll fineeee i've spent hella money on WM/Hordes too.


But .. for some reason it felt better than buying GW things lol.


Anyone feel this way ? (PP buyers i'm talkin to)



IF WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT CHEAP GAMES - just go At-43 then.

The cheapest above all with crazy discounts!


Lets go gogogo.

When I was playing WarMachine, before Prime through Superiority, it really wasn't anymore of a skirmish game than 40k was.

Yes, I'm sure you can make me a list for $200 that uses Warjacks but odds are it'll suck compared to my Cryx or Menoth horde armies I used. I can also cobble together a Space Marine for $200 that, in all honestly, will probably do better in actual games than a similarly cheap WarMachine army. A competitive army in either game, on average, is going to run the same amount of money. Saying otherwise involves a fair amount of self delusion.

I used to really like WarMachine. I came from playing historicals primarily and I got into WarMachine before jumping into 40k and Fantasy. I've talked to a lot of disgruntled GW vets and I feel the same way they felt but about PP. Sure, I could keep using Knights Examplar but I'd be a fool not to use Knights Errant. Yes, I had a unit of Stormblades but only a sucker would use them over Stormguard. I had 20 Bane Thralls and wanted to throw them away as soon as I saw Bane Knights. I understand it's different than GW getting rid of Lost and the Damned or Squats but it didn't feel much better to have to keep up with the newest and best things.

I got into Hordes as well with a Trollbloods army and that set me back quite a bit. 20 Kriel Warriors aren't cheap. At least in Hordes I didn't feel like a total noob for using Beasts like I did for using Warjacks in WarMachine.

My point is that competitive armies at sizes for most tournament play, which seemed to be 750 when I left, I would have as many figures on the table as I would for most of my 40k armies (outside of Orks and Tyranids for me, personally). In some cases, like Cryx, I had more models than one of my normal 40k armies.

As to these figures, I actually like them. It's frustrating, honestly, as PP is so hit and miss. Some figures are really nice and others would be considered average figures for Chronopia.

@Russ

I do think they would average to be about the same, counting a 2000 pt Fantasy army (TKs) vs a 500pt Hordes army (Skorne). Now while GW's bigger troop models such as terminators may be comparable to PP's troops in price, it doesn't do anything to change the fact that PP's regular troop models still cost 3-4x that of GW's regular troops.

For eg.

Full Skorne praetorian unit - GBP20 (box) + 2xGBP7 (Unit blisters) = GBP34 +/- GBP12 (UA) = 10 models
Ingame value = 85 pts ~ 17% of a 500pt army

Full skeleton unit - GBP18/GBP24 = 20 models
Ingame value = 200-ish pts ~ 10% of a 2000 pt army

If you extrapolate these numbers (as the cheapest units available in each army), you end up with a Skorne army costing GBP200 and an Undead army costing between GBP180-GBP240. Which amounts to the same thing on average.

Now of course these are gross simplifications, and someone out there is nevertheless preparing a dollar per point chart to present in this very thread, but it does demonstrate that for some armies at least, GW = PP. Now, my gut feeling is that most PP armies will cost the same, due to them being all metal, and the all metal GW armies will cost much more than them. However, for armies which are largely plastic, I do feel that the cost will be equal.

There is, however, one thing good about playing GW, with enough skill, you can always convert a cheaper model into a more expensive one (i.e. Empire Knights => Mounted Wights). This does not apply to PP, being the insane anti-conversion nazis they are.

Edit. On topic, these guys are actually looking pretty nice. I might buy a couple just to paint. After the abortions that were Mulg and the Retribution, I am glad that PP is hitting again. I can't comment on the size problems, apart from the fact that this does appear to be a longstanding problem. Remember Prime Deneghra?

while i wish pp was as cheap as when i started collecting (i can remember donating plasma, and having the cash to get a unit or a couple casters and a jack with a bit left), i'll still get the fennblades because i rather like the look of the models, and out of all the armies for games i play, trollblood are probably about my favorite.

also, i really really like its a full unit, and i don't have to try and find a blister or two (i always seemed to hit the store when they either didn't have blisters, or only 1 when i needed two)

greenskin lynn: people really trade blood for models?!

Rogue Market: I'm much happier when I spend the money on the Warmachine stuff, if only
because I'm not buying the same kit a third time. It's nice to paint different things

malfred wrote:Rogue Market: I'm much happier when I spend the money on the Warmachine stuff, if only
because I'm not buying the same kit a third time. It's nice to paint different things

That may be the first real "pro" that anyone has ever said.

While I like the overall look of the sculpts I'm disappointed that PP's conversion to plastic is really just a change in casting medium and not really a radical shift in the way that they sculpt models. They are not more poseable or more unique for being out of plastic. Look closely at these units, they still feature multiples of the same exact pose, exactly like PP's metal units. They may be slightly easier to convert, but these plastics are not really the same as GW's plastics. Cost considerations aside what can I do in terms of making a unit look unique? These units are designed to build one way, most people who buy them will have largely the same unit as anyone else who buys them. GW's kits are designed to allow for much more variation and ease of conversion. Even taking into account some of the concessions they made for some units ranking up in fantasy, two units built from the same GW kit are much easier to make look different.

malfred wrote:greenskin lynn: people really trade blood for models?!

i first started wargaming around the start of my second year of college, i had a full enough class load that i didn't have time for a job. So, once a week or so, myself and a friend or two would walk over to the plasma bank and spend the hour and a half or so to donate, and then hit up a gaming store that offered discounts with the $30plus we had each made for essentially laying on a couch watching movies.

that was really the only way i could afford to build my cygnar army, those days

So, why is Nightmare nearly double the price of a Slayer?

The same goes for any of the "Unique" jacks. From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.
therefore the "Only need one" reasoning can hold for all heavy jacks, not just the "Uniques".

These new plastics are troops that will be in multiples. I do not see a price break for that.

PP = GW . They do not yet have 20+ years of disillusioned players.
But they have the exact same pricing methods and reasoning.

I'm just glad my Cryx cav are only $75 for a full unit.

whitedragon wrote:

malfred wrote:Rogue Market: I'm much happier when I spend the money on the Warmachine stuff, if only
because I'm not buying the same kit a third time. It's nice to paint different things

That may be the first real "pro" that anyone has ever said.

About warmachine? Plenty of people like the game.

About PP sculpts? Plenty of us like that as well.

About these particular sculpts? They are very characterful and fit the units nicely.

What part are you referring to?

Love those fennblades. That what the whole trollblood range should look like. Maybe then I wouldn't be selling my figures. Love the look though, seriously psyched by the sweet plastic. The price is a bit much for me, but maybe for a holiday I'll pick up a box.

malfred wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

malfred wrote:Rogue Market: I'm much happier when I spend the money on the Warmachine stuff, if only
because I'm not buying the same kit a third time. It's nice to paint different things

That may be the first real "pro" that anyone has ever said.

About warmachine? Plenty of people like the game.

About PP sculpts? Plenty of us like that as well.

About these particular sculpts? They are very characterful and fit the units nicely.

What part are you referring to?

I was referring to my own opinion of the game. Steampunk and M:TG style combo bashing does not really float my boat and get me excited. That coupled with the visual style PP has chosen for the game also doesn't really get me all excited. On the other hand, you are exactly correct in that 40k is about spamming multiple similar units (or for Space Marines, they all wear power armor, regardless of if they are a captain, assault marine, etc.) and in Warmachine, most armies use a more varied mix of units from every faction. That's certainly a "pro" in my book, and one I hadn't thought about before.

On the other hand, I like the "regimented" look that a full space marine army has, and I'd argue that some of the armies in warmachine don't have as much of a binding theme across the whole army apart from a color scheme. Each of their units are too different, with the exception of maybe Menoth (tall hats and armor) or Legion (Shark faces).

skrulnik wrote:From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.

I have three Slayers

skrulnik wrote:So, why is Nightmare nearly double the price of a Slayer?

The same goes for any of the "Unique" jacks. From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.
therefore the "Only need one" reasoning can hold for all heavy jacks, not just the "Uniques".

Players running more heavies and jacks in general is one of the things PP set out to change with the Mk2 rules. It could very well be that they expect most Mk2 armies to run two or more heavies when 2010 comes around.

@ John - Nice Cryx dude.




On Legion I run double Angelius's.


Again - its all up to playstyle.


I dont always run double heavies or such.


It really depends what you want to do with your army =)





It also depends on WM vs Hordes.



WM - you need focus points to make your heavies really usable.


Whereas ... Hordes- not so much cuz if they frenzy - you get made bonusses too anyways! haha.


Thats why i love hordes.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

skrulnik wrote:From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.

I have three Slayers

I have three ironclads, two defenders, three lancers, two sentinels, three mules, two nomads...

I rarely run less then two jacks unless I'm trying some idea for an infantry heavy force, and usally 3-4 jacks is standard in my lists (with two heavies on average) and thats MKI. MKII these numbers will increase for me.

Hahaha, Malf. I loved your joke about the 13 year terminus player beating you to prove your manhood...you were joking right?

Seriously nice models there. Bigger is better (No i'm not referencing manhood in any way, shape of form here either).

Um, right. Joke. Ha!

Ha.

CT GAMER wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

skrulnik wrote:From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.

I have three Slayers

I have three ironclads, two defenders, three lancers, two sentinels, three mules, two nomads...

I rarely run less then two jacks unless I'm trying some idea for an infantry heavy force, and usally 3-4 jacks is standard in my lists (with two heavies on average) and thats MKI. MKII these numbers will increase for me.

@John and CT

But do you regularly run two of the same heavy jack?

Multiples of Lights I have seen, and I am running either 2 rippers or Wretches.

I know a guy with multiples of all the Khador Jacks, but he never runs more than one.
'Beasts in the ither hand...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Drawomancer wrote:You are all aware that these box sets are the full, maximum size you can field those units in, right? Not half a unit or a third of a unit or three fifths of a unit but a full unit.

So, just like a GW SM Tactical Squad?

Except for the fact that both of these units are more equivalent to Terminators in size and importance\Elite status.

Drawomancer wrote:Except for the fact that both of these units are more equivalent to Terminators in size and importance\Elite status.

Fennblades are comparable to Terminators in size, but not status. They'd be more like Dire Avengers in an eldar army. They're not the bare-bones trooper, but aren't much more than one either.

skrulnik wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

skrulnik wrote:From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.

I have three Slayers

I have three ironclads, two defenders, three lancers, two sentinels, three mules, two nomads...

I rarely run less then two jacks unless I'm trying some idea for an infantry heavy force, and usally 3-4 jacks is standard in my lists (with two heavies on average) and thats MKI. MKII these numbers will increase for me.

@John and CT

But do you regularly run two of the same heavy jack?

Multiples of Lights I have seen, and I am running either 2 rippers or Wretches.

I know a guy with multiples of all the Khador Jacks, but he never runs more than one.
'Beasts in the ither hand...

Commonly run two mules with Ashlynn (obvious reasons) and this will only get better in MKII due to more predictable mule crit effect (I may grab a third mule actually to run three).

I often run two defenders for deadly sniping in my Stryker drop and pop lists...

I run 2-3 Ironclads at times with Darius or Nemo...

Dunno, I don't often see two same heavy beasts unless it's something like Krueger lighting
spam. Otherwise, it's mix and match to get those key animi into the game.

I've always avoided buying multiples of heavy warjacks and warbeasts, preferring to field two different ones. I've seen multiple Defenders, Seethers and Reckoners, in Hordes I see multiple Woldwardens, Carnivean and Angeluis.

skrulnik wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

skrulnik wrote:From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.

I have three Slayers

@John and CT

But do you regularly run two of the same heavy jack?

Yes. What you see is what I own. If I want to make points, I will field multiple Slayers.

fullheadofhair wrote:10 plastic for $50 or 5 for $45??

Where is the howling, rending of clothes and gnashing of teeth. Come on people, how many threads about GW and their pricing? This is worse - this makes goldswords actually look worth their weight. I still don't buy the argument that you need less models etc to play WM so it is cheaper, because you build up a good WM army and it isn't cheap.

I dunno, just smacks of hypocrisy to me - what does PP have to do before its players actually start to complain?

This, basically. They're great figures, and like the rest of PP's stuff, exceptionally well sculpted, but as I saw the price I blurted out, "Oh, come on!"

Even though they're Ogre-sized, at fifty bucks a box I'll be taking a pass.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

The odd thing for me is that I can buy 5 assembled and painted plastic minis from PP for $16 (Monsterapocalypse), but I get 5 unpainted unassembled models for $45?

It must be just a "what the market will bare" deal. No one is going to pay $45 for a booster, but the warspears will sell at that price.

I think the plastics look great, even of they do not have the ease of conversion of GW plastics. All in good time.

engine

The difference is in production and sales methods. Monsterpocalypse is mass produced like a toy. Within a mpoc set there is really just a small number of large models and many smaller models that can be pumped out en masse and shoved into random boxes. Hobby type games have more limited runs and way more detail and multiple parts to it's models.

One pricing aspect that's not covered much is the size of the army. These units may cost $50 or so, but they are a larger chunk of a WM army than a gw army where that fifty gets you a terminator squad but it's only a small part of your army.

skrulnik wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

skrulnik wrote:From what I have seen, most players run maybe one heavy.
And I have not yet seen doubles of a heavy.

I have three Slayers

I have three ironclads, two defenders, three lancers, two sentinels, three mules, two nomads...

I rarely run less then two jacks unless I'm trying some idea for an infantry heavy force, and usally 3-4 jacks is standard in my lists (with two heavies on average) and thats MKI. MKII these numbers will increase for me.

@John and CT

But do you regularly run two of the same heavy jack?

Multiples of Lights I have seen, and I am running either 2 rippers or Wretches.

I know a guy with multiples of all the Khador Jacks, but he never runs more than one.
'Beasts in the ither hand...

Lol I play Khador and all my stuff is heavy. I run 2 Kodiak's at times and have been known to run two Berserkers as well. Heck i generally play a mainly Jack army with Karchev and have little trouble.

2 things.

Although I do like the plastic ( suck it page 5...or whereever the anti plastic thing is in their books :p)
It's not enough to make me change, I like lots of troops, It's still expensive, not too far off a GW army despite having fewer models, also I doubt the quality of the plastic, dunno why.

Second Point, we all know plastic moulds are priiicey to the extreme, especially compared to metal moulds, PP doesn't have the funds to make the commitment, also as bussiness-ey people will understand, It looks very bad, and with PP's margins, which arent bad, for the size of PP they're just not big enough to do it, It'll drag their ROCE down for at least 3 years before they start to reap the benifits, especially in this economic climate, in 2007 GW invested heavily in plastic minis, this looked very bad on the graphs for the sharholders, but then the credit cruch hit, the price of metal, in particular tin, skyrocketed, because of their new plastics and cost saving measures (managerial restructuring, moving US stores from shopping centres to strip malls, closing loss making stores) GW was in a good position to weather it in a niche market (it helped that gaming increased because in actual fact it's very cheap, for £300 I can get more than enough hobby equipment and models for a good size army, which Ican use over and over again, every week I can go out and play at my local store for free, compared to going to a trendy nightclub, up to £50 a night) however with an all metal range soaring prices hit PP as did publishing costs and haulage, a lack of physical stores to lose money was however useful.

Thus ends todays lesson, class dismissed.

I'm wondering if the non-styrene plastic is any more feasible than the other kind. Alkemy
uses it, so it leads me to think that it's not so bad.

But I don't know.

Kyley wrote:Although I do like the plastic ( suck it page 5...or whereever the anti plastic thing is in their books :p)
It's not enough to make me change, I like lots of troops, It's still expensive, not too far off a GW army despite having fewer models, also I doubt the quality of the plastic, dunno why.

I think it's a safe bet they'll be removing that page from future books.

The whole page?

I think the page will be there, but it'll change.

malfred wrote:I'm wondering if the non-styrene plastic is any more feasible than the other kind. Alkemy
uses it, so it leads me to think that it's not so bad.

But I don't know.

They could use cheaper palstic, but the last thing you want to do in this market is piut forward low quality products, because then you loose your edge, anyone can make inferior models, which cheaper plastic could cause, for an example the plastic in GW starter kits and their WD giveaways if different to their regular stuff, and has less detail definition

I think its funny that people keep comparing GW to PP with prices. I don't care what the price of GW is when I'm looking at PP all I know is that the fennblades are $30 cheaper than the comparable kriels and the warspears are $20 cheaper than the warmongers. So what's the complaint?

On a side note- I love GW's high prices because they allow me to trade a few old GW items for a bunch of PP stuff on Bartertown

They're competitor products, you have to compare the prices, I think most people, whilst maybe prefering one ruleset or the other, are wargamers fires and 40k/WM/WHFB players second, so if one game gets prohibitively expensive they'll stop collecting it, maybe still play, untill they need a change and they'll jump ship to avoid paying £35 for a box of marines, and just be satisfied with being able wargame in general.

malfred wrote:The whole page?

I think the page will be there, but it'll change.

I guess it would be difficult as Page 6 might not be happy if it Page 5 went missing. They're close.