Allright here is the scenario for this massive undertaking so no loopholing

1: everyone else decided to leave today and went to the next galaxy,
-besides all orks and all the forces of the imperium and the current inhabitants of both civs-

2: chaos gods are still around just their demons and marines have also left, warp is also still ok

3: this is total war,nothing one on one on a planet, this is a war in between races

4: no multiple votes! if you have a second account or not please do not vote twice

5: and for any of you true, lore less, men out there; with imperium i do include the Astartes

6: with, war between races, i do not say that orks immediately start off as a united faction, but are in their current state for the start of this war.

7: this is too the death of the other race!!!! or too such an extent that the other race has the abilty to supress the other into a unsignificant threat like how we dont care about grizzly bears(near extinct animals), your just scared when you go camping.

Vote

If looking for opinions there is already a thread started (where of course my idea for a poll started)

Edit: for a improvement in the outline of the scenario

If Orks decide to stop fighting each other till every single emperium men is dead , Ork would win.

Atttrition alone Orks would win , they repopulate fast , grow faster , get stronger genetically the tougher their enemy gets ( same goes for meks and teknology )

For every Imperium Titan that falls , its lost for ever due to the lost technology , and in its place a new gargaunt / stompas are born.

for every Imperium Terminator destroyed , its gone for ever.

for every Imperium Marine killed , if seed is not harvested , its 1 less Marine created.

Imperium would go extinct too fast....

If by "war between races" you mean the orks are working together as a race against humanity, they win.

no i meant that if orks today only had the imperium as an enemy left and they were still in there current state

(so empire would have massive upper hand till later when a massive waagh would eventually form)

ill edit that in there too

Ah. Probably should have voted Imperium then. At least in the context of taking more of the galaxy.

Imperium wins.

Because:
( insignium astartes page 4 )
Space Marines are....., armed with the most powerful weapon of all: an unshakable faith in the righteousness of their missionand in the Emperor.

no way imperium eventually stops beause there too chicken to go where they cant see the beacon and then some huge waagh comes up out of the other side of space says

da boyz are here now. we waz late.

and then over runs the empire with 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 orks

Lord_Lockhart wrote:no way imperium eventually stops beause there too chicken to go where they cant see the beacon and then some huge waagh comes up out of the other side of space says

da boyz are here now. we waz late.

and then over runs the empire with 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 orks

Since we found in another thread that 400 space marines can beat *millions* of orks, how many orks would die from 1.000.000 SM
unleashed on them?

Orks lack also any directed warp travel, so your few orks wouldn't be here but anywhere else.

If that doesnt cut it for you, i may assume something winning the war for the imperium in the same way you created this insane number of illusionary orks, so i " invent" 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 vortex missiles and sent all your orks into the warp where they will battle with the demons forever and never return.

I voted imperium.

1. Better Space Navy
2. Exterminatus.
3. ???
4. Profit.

allright 1hadhq

your point is understandable but yeaa its still just the number game really isnt it, orks can afford to run a line of 1000 orks at you and have each one take a some bullets and die but if they get in cc, even sm have trouble with orks in cc, you die and the guy behind you dies and that guy and there just more and more without continued range support you will die to orks in cc

Lord_Lockhart wrote:

7: this is too the death of the other race!!!! or too such an extent that the other race has the abilty to supress the other into a unsignificant threat like how we dont care about grizzly bears(near extinct animals), your just scared when you go camping.

That is getting sigged. 'Scared when you go camping' --classic.

I don't agree that orks reproduce faster at all. We know that the spores take 'a long time' to grow. And that only a small percent are actually grown in to orks, and that the ratio of spores released to type of ork grown can't be manipulated. It is set. Plus, the large, combatant class of orks takes the longest time to grow of all types.

I consider 'a long time' to be at least a year, or nearly a year. Which would mean humans reproduce FASTER than orks. Additionally, humans can radically increase their rate of reproduction. Women, even with today's by comparison crude technology, can safely have 8 children in one litter with no ill effects. These can even be manipulated, so that all 8 will be boys. With the tech that we have today. I don't think it is any stretch to imagine the crazy future tech of 40k (in addition to current trends) making women more fertile, and decreasing the length of human gestation. A VERY conservative estimate would be 6 son litter in 6.5 months on fortress planets which are set up to 'breed' soldiers. More likely 5 sons and 1 daughter.

This doesn't even get into technology that is mentioned in passing in the background, like the Vita-Wombs of Krieg, where thousands of soldiers are born a day.

So if you assume that every woman on worlds optimized for this (Cadia, Krieg, etc) is getting pregnant at 12 (which is a little on the high side, considering again, current trends and future technology, I would really say closer to 10) and then produced 1-2 litters a year of 5 soldiers and a daughter until, say 35, every woman produces well over 200 hundred male offspring, as well as 46 females who each produce a further ~250 each. Over two generations that is every single woman producing well over 11,000 troops. I very highly doubt that Orks are getting those sort of numbers from their spores on a per-beast status. Set up like that, every single birth mother will have produced a reinforced guard regiment by time she is 40 (counting grand children, but not great grandchildren). That is insanely good. And Orks aren't capable of that.

Orks mitigate this slightly because of their faster growth rate ( I would assume after about 3-4 years and Ork is dangerous, it would be at least 12 for a Human), but this is in turn busted up because so much of their next generation is vulnerable. They are growing and raising their young in the combat zone, so their infant mortality is going to be light years beyond that of humans. Whereas human population centers and breeding areas can be fortified and made impregnable (hehehe) Orks can't do that, and can loose a whole generation if a couple special weapon squads happen across a spore patch. Since their troops live their whole life cycle on the front line, this is a major problem.

Finally- this has happened before. When humanity didn't have Chaos on it's back it was ripping through Ork empires left, right, and center. There is a precedent for this, and in it, the Orks loose. Huge. All sorts of unspeculated things start occuring when you remove all other forces. Without fighting chaos constantly the Imperium is made immeasurably strong. The recovery of the emperor is even possible under those conditions. I like orks, but as someone mentioned on the other thread, they aren't really built to take on the imperium- they were weapons to be wielded by the Old Ones. Without their guidance, they really don't have a prayer against the Imperium.

@silverthorne

orks release 1000000 of spores throughout life and upon death as well so when you kill an ork and dont burn it it makes at least 100 orks(required conditions) that are capable of fighting in a year (all lore i have read makes me assume that orks are combat ready the second they are borne there are no ork infants just smaller orks- still 8 ft tall muscled killers)

as for your crazy birth mothers stuff how many eggs does a woman have if you say menopause happens at fifty and she started at 10 losing an avergae one egg month for 40 years thats 12 times 40 which is 480 children ok add 20, 500 children max with increased litters

and while true the main forces of chaos are gone, the gods do remain and are still there to practice there intents in new subjects creating a tension in imperial forces probably quite quickly.



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andd ohh yeaa thanks for the complement on the scared when you go camping

Please stop this, there has already been a thread for this and we dont need another one. Its gonna end the same way, the Imperials say Imperium and the Orks say the Orks, no-one is going to decide.

Lord_Lockhart wrote:allright 1hadhq

orks can afford to run a line of 1000 orks at you and have each one take a some bullets and die but if they get in cc, even sm have trouble with orks in cc, you die and the guy behind you dies and that guy and there just more and more without continued range support you will die to orks in cc

Did i provide an example where a few hundred marines ( CF ) handed a ot of your "line of 1000 orks" their asses?
So we have 2500x400 marines. Ends in 2.500 times more dead orks than on Rynns world.

Additionally, you dont know me but assume orks stand a chance in CC against me

Maybe we should throw into this debate the difference between background and the game.

In the game, orks kill a lot of opponents.
In the background, all depends on the author. If he wants to have a single space marine slay hundreds of orks, then you either accept it or stop reading that book.

Lets apply some logic.
Everyone ( almost all orks or humans ) carries a shooty weapon.
This has a reason. Maybe CC isn't the deciding factor in a battle?
Could it be that the "shooting" kills far more than hacking and slashing ?
Maybe those illustrations with cramped masses of combattants are just GW typical imagery.
Would it not make more sense to drop some tactical nukes ( or any other nasty weapon of mass destruction) on those masses than fight them?

thats why there is a poll, i want to see the majority opinion.

hope you didnt just view and actually voted

Dammit! Sorry, I missed the first post. It's gonna be imperium all the way. Orks AREN'T united, therefore, they WILL be pawned!

GLORY TO THE GOD-EMPEROR!!!!!!!!!!

1hadhq wrote:
Would it not make more sense to drop some tactical nukes ( or any other nasty weapon of mass destruction) on those masses than fight them?

Men are cheaper than bombs.


Also, that million-billion percent population growth stuff is silly.

Hive Worlds are already overpopulated, the Imperium is not held back by their birth rate.

Where does it say that orks release one million spores throughout their lifespan and upon death? It doesn't. We know they release spores (mostly upon death) but there isn't any place where it says how many. Where does it say that 'it makes at least 100 orks'? It doesn't- you are just making crap up dude. Again, it doesn't say anywhere how long Orks are immature after birth, you are ASSUMING it is a year. Fair enough, but an assumption none the less. Your claim that each one breeds 100 orks is, I'm sad to say, completely ridiculous. Nowhere in the established cannon do you see a number like that. This is the problem that the other thread had also- I'm showing very clearly how each human woman could EASILY produce 276 children. You are just pulling numbers out of the air. Nowhere does it say that every ork KIA results in 100 new orks. Nowhere. Even if it did, which it doesn't, that is still loosing out to Humans by 37ish offspring each (you have to divide humans' gross by 2 since only one partner produces offspring). So even with your completely made up numbers, you still loose. By an entire platoon worth of troops.

Also- I think you are confused about how pregnancy and menopause work. First off, I never claimed a woman would have 500 children. I claimed less than half of that. Basically a woman, no matter how many children and pregnancies she ever has, can't run out of eggs. Women have THOUSANDS of eggs. Additionally, I put women's fertility ending at 35, not 50, like you say. Plus- women don't ovulate when pregnant and these women would be pregnant at essentially all times. I don't get your point, you are trying to say that I am wrong by doubling the estimated number of children a woman would have produced. You say 500 kids, I say 270 ish. You just aren't grasping the logarithmic expansion that occurs when most of a female population is having that many children. Within 20 years, you are looking at tens of thousands of direct offspring. It was a long paragraph, look over it again maybe.



EDIT-- The birth rate stuff I'm putting in here to show that Orks do not have some massive built in numerical superiority to humans. It is silly because Humans already have more than enough bodies to kill off all the Orks. But if they didn't, it wouldn't matter. Human birthrates can be scaled up to insane rates, as I have just demonstrated. Is it necessary? No- but I have to mention it since there are people claiming there are 'hundreds of trillions' of orks, and that each ork produces 'at least 100 orks'.

Creating tension in Imperial Forces? What are you talking about? Even if they exist- you stipulate the conflict is exclusively between Orks and Humans- so no SM, no Crazy demonically fueled things, etc.

Orkeosaurus wrote:
Men are cheaper than bombs.

Sure?

All those expensive vehicles and when it comes to bombs, its not affordable?

Not literally in the cost of the bombs themselves, but in the cost of using and maintaining the weaponry, and otherwise trying to meet their objectives with bombs, yes.

That's why it isn't Bombhammer 40k.

Demogerg wrote:I voted imperium.

1. Better Space Navy
2. Exterminatus.
3. ???
4. Profit.

Those few reasons are just ridiculous. They use that on ANY army they face now, and they still loose depending on who and where. If it were just Orks, on jsut Imperium, the Imperium would be completely destroyed.

The only reason the Orks are so scattered now is because there is SO many others to fight with. It was suddenly just the Imperium in our gaze, then a mighty warboss would bring all the Orks together nd hulk smash them into bits. Thats the way we Orks work. Then we would go back to inter fightings


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Also to SilverThorne. Its in the Ork fluff that there is an uncountable number of Orks in the Universe.FAR beyond what the Imperium can even pretend to know. Infact it also says that as far as the Imperium have sent out becons to search past their empire, all they found were Orks.
The Ork population is WAY more then mankind. Thats ALSO fluff. Im not sure where your pulling YOUR gak out of, but im guessing its air as well.

Uncountable? How do you figure? Because probes sent into deep space return primarily Ork chatter? That proves precisely nothing. Do you know the only thing our probes in deep space send back? Human chatter. Does that mean that humans have colonized every world in the galaxy? No. Nice try.

The Ork population IS greater than mankind's. I never argued against that. The Orks DO control more territory than mankind. I never argued against that either. Your entire post is a straw-man attack. You go after a joke post like it is a legit discussion, and then you say that I make claims which I do not. Weak.

My gak? Oh, like how I explain EXACTLY, with reasonable numbers and modest scientific expectations of a society 40 thousand years in the future, how humans could be extremely prolific? I guess that can't ever be as good as an argument as 'OMG there are hundreds of trillions of orks! each one has one million spores at least and 100 babies! I can't show any reference to that but every body knows its true!!!1!OMG!'

My 'gak'. Show me how what I said was unreasonable. Go ahead. I'll wait. Try a logical deconstruction of what I said, rather than making up lies and then attacking them, hoping no one will notice that no one made the argument you are fighting against.

Silverthorne wrote:EDIT-- The birth rate stuff I'm putting in here to show that Orks do not have some built in numerical superiority to humans. It is silly because Humans already have more than enough bodies to kill off all the Orks. But if they didn't, it wouldn't matter. Human birthrates can be scaled up to insane rates, as I have just demonstrated. Is it necessary? No- but I have to mention it since there are people claiming there are 'hundreds of trillions' of orks, and that each ork produces 'at least 100 orks'.

I guess that works as a demonstration of maximum birthrates, but it doesn't really prove population growth, as you've pretty much ignored every other logistic. How do a mother and father feed their 200 children? They can't, not with the capabilities afforded to an average citizen of the Imperium.


Also, if you only went by birthrate, here's a counter-example:

An ork dies, and releases spores that create "dozens of cocoons". A good number will turn into orks; let's say that this number is "9".

Now, in a year, there are 9 new yoofs (a year is actually enough for them to be "thriving quite easily"). As soon as the year's up they're killed (because like the humans, they've for some reason decided that birthrate is everything). Each one produces 9 more orks.

Year two: 81 orks

Year three: 729 orks

Year four: 6,561 orks

Year five: 59,049 orks

Year Ten: 3,486,784,401 orks

Year Forty: 1.478088 x 10^38 orks.


Thus, we can determine that neither faction is currently held back by their maximum birthrate, nor is that likely to occur in the future.

There was already a thread on this topic. Shouldn't spam up the forums with multiple threads about the same topic.

@ Orkeosaurus-- are your quoted parts from the latest Ork codex? I just don't see them on the thread, so that is my assumption.

I agree with what you are saying- depopulating the other side isn't going to be what wins for either force. I mean, is it ever? Virtually no wars are one because everyone on the other side is dead.

Do SM have to die before their geneseed is removed? I remember their being 2, one that can be taken out whenever and keep regrowing over time, and one that is only removed when they die. I mention it because either way, the SM reproduce in a sort of Orkoid fashion, which I think is sort of interesting.

I feel that the Orks get hurt more by territorial loss than the Humans do- because if a planet is lost you can, I feel, pretty much write off that entire next generation of yoofs that were created by the fighting.

Conversely, I think the Humans are affected more profoundly by material losses. Orks don't really have any irreplaceable gear, but Humans have things that, while replaceable, aren't practical to replace. Like Psi-Titans and stuff like that.

So I think that this question essentially comes down to who will be able to inflict damage on the enemies most essential capacities at the faster rate. I feel like that situation favors the Imperium, personally, since the Orks' is manpower (orkpower?) which is created on the frontline, while the Imperium's is materiel, which is created in safe, heavily fortified regions.

Finally, the Imperium is just more prepared for war on a massive scale than the Orks are. It is a monolithic organization with a clear chain of command and existing logistical supply lines. Orks don't really have that, which is why WAAAAAAAAGHs typically burn out or don't hold the worlds that they have conquered for a particularly long time.

@metallifan i made this poll to see the majority opinion of that discussion

@silverthrone ok good points but umm im not sure which one it is but the i think the ig omnibus with three different tales of ig saoldier has a short story right after 15 hours that has a ig squad find a spore field and thats where i got my numbers from but orkeosaurus does prove a point birthrate is not the problem

its that birthrate of orks combined with more orks means more orks than humans and that is just cold hard logic
if you have more than someone and are producing at the same rate, and your product will make more of what you have, then you will out produce. Not to mention the fact that orks take a lot less longer than a human to develop after birth as a 12 year old is not the same as a 12 year old ork by any means and the fact that males do not reproduce while all members of orky society do


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@silverthrone last post is very convncing but the probelm is that orks essentially never would run out of thier main advantage orkpower while man would and could run out of materials if you start to mess with logistal ships that bring essential items like weapons to and fro and its very likely that orks in there lets kill everything attitude would eventually do


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and also the thing is yes orks would take a huge loss with a loss of planet, but it is firmly stated in lore that totally eradicating orks from any planet is almost imposible and because of that the imperium would always have to leave some force behind to protect there new found territory, while orks could essentially move on and lets their spores do the defending

Silverthorne wrote:@ Orkeosaurus-- are your quoted parts from the latest Ork codex? I just don't see them on the thread, so that is my assumption.

Yeah, page 11.

I agree with what you are saying- depopulating the other side isn't going to be what wins for either force. I mean, is it ever? Virtually no wars are one because everyone on the other side is dead.

And population is based on quite a bit besides birthrate, I might add.

Do SM have to die before their geneseed is removed? I remember their being 2, one that can be taken out whenever and keep regrowing over time, and one that is only removed when they die. I mention it because either way, the SM reproduce in a sort of Orkoid fashion, which I think is sort of interesting.

Yes, I believe that's how geneseed works.

I feel that the Orks get hurt more by territorial loss than the Humans do- because if a planet is lost you can, I feel, pretty much write off that entire next generation of yoofs that were created by the fighting.

I can see ork populations as being closer to the world they're on, so I'd probably agree.

Conversely, I think the Humans are affected more profoundly by material losses. Orks don't really have any irreplaceable gear, but Humans have things that, while replaceable, aren't practical to replace. Like Psi-Titans and stuff like that.

True, a lot of what the Imperium has is what's been built up over millennia.

So I think that this question essentially comes down to who will be able to inflict damage on the enemies most essential capacities at the faster rate. I feel like that situation favors the Imperium, personally, since the Orks' is manpower (orkpower?) which is created on the frontline, while the Imperium's is materiel, which is created in safe, heavily fortified regions.

Orks do shed spores throughout their life even without combat, so I'm not sure that the majority of the ork population would be born on the front line.

Finally, the Imperium is just more prepared for war on a massive scale than the Orks are. It is a monolithic organization with a clear chain of command and existing logistical supply lines. Orks don't really have that, which is why WAAAAAAAAGHs typically burn out or don't hold the worlds that they have conquered for a particularly long time.

If we're not talking about a hypothetical unification of the orks, they have much further divisions than that. Even nobs under one warboss distrust each other, most nobs aren't even really under the command of a warboss. They're hugely divided, and even if they happen to have similar goals they're not going to work well with each other without some sort of outside intervention. Without that unification, they're less than the sum of their parts.

Plus, there's the general impatience and boredom that comes from not being particularly dedicated to their specific cause. And the fact that the greater the stakes are the more the individual leaders want it for themselves.

The Orks would probably win, simply due to the fact that the Empire suffers from a horrible bureaucracy. After a long drawn out fight which it is sure to be facing when fighting the Orks, the inhabitants of a planet will eventually start to run out of supplies.

Orks dont really suffer from this problem as when they run low on food they just eat a squig, Grot, or Smaller Ork, which then release spores which creates more mushrooms, squigs, grots and orks. Spores arent only released when an Ork dies, they are released when any type of orkoid creature dies. If a Squiggoth died it would probably release Billions of spores and every one of those has a chance of either becoming food, for lack of a better term some form of 'support staff', or an able bodied battle ready ork.

When it comes to vehicles the mekboys have that knowledge genetically coded in them selves to build almost anything if they get 'insperation' from something, so they will always be able to build vehicles. If they are able to survive an attack from an Imperial super weapon the mekboys will probably get inspiration to build an orky version for them selves. How do you think Killa Kans and Gargants were designed, a mek boy wanted to build an orky version of a dreadnaught and titan respectively. Also any vehicle the Impirium loses to the orks that isnt completely oliterated, has the chance of becoming a looted vehicle for the Orks. While orks are able to use human technology with a little trial and error, it cant be said to work in reverse, as a lot of ork technology only works because they believe it works.

The best way the Imperial Forces could fight the Orks is if they just curled up in a ball and let the orks hit them when they showed up, as this would be a boring fight for the orks and they would just continue to fight amongst themselves.

... But then again im drunk right now. mmm rum.

WAAAAGHH!!!

Stompas and other big Ork things were made in The Mighty Gork and Morks image. I dont see how the Imperials will curl up into a ball with a million space marines on there way.
But those who say the Imperium is organised are kidding themselves, the space marines are split into a thousand little factions each with its own beliefs.
The Imperial guard commanders are EPIC fail. If anyone has read legion, i believe the Guard commander in Legion was going to bomb half a legion and a primarch(s) cause he didnt get any glory, they suffer from being human. They get jealous etc, and that could lead to catostropic fail for the Imperium.

Who did you vote for Xav? You seemed a staunch xeno-lover before...*scowl suspiciously*

Also, compared to orks, Imperium is WAY united. And a little guard throwing a tantrum is nothing compared to what orks do for the hell of it.

Emporers faithful its not just a guard throwing a tantrum, its a Imperial guard high commander throwing a tantrum which scares me!

Could Emporers Faithful possibly be Emporer trying to spread Imperial lies? Is the Golden Throne fitted with a Laptop?

Xav wrote:Emporers faithful its not just a guard throwing a tantrum, its a Imperial guard high commander throwing a tantrum which scares me!

Could Emporers Faithful possibly be Emporer trying to spread Imperial lies? Is the Golden Throne fitted with a Laptop?

1) imperium never lies and is always right,

2) Emporers faithful can't be emperor. Would had autoclosed the thread and deleted the xenos-supporters then....

3) Golden Throne and laptop? Greatness needs more bandwidth.

4) if unsure about the imperial truth, please read the "imperial infantrymans uplifting primer" and gain some insight.

aww 22 to 15

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! see how i did that it gets louder

nice try.....



But its still silent where i live.

Orks win they reborn and are limitless on men and supplies because of previous looting.

It all falls to this factor
can the orks storm the Imperial Palace which i would say no they can not
so why you may kill a ton of us i doubt you could break your way in and if we are going by GW Gulimam would come out of his coma and start kicking the living out of the orks

Imo if the orks got together the imperium would be in the gak, however this probably wouldn't happen so I voted for the imperium

The Imperium IMO

They have best tech cause they and the orks only exist now(If im getting this right), superhuman warriors with centuries of experience and have conducted war for millennium and there Fleet and The Guard also have knowledge of War for millennium orks i know are born for fightin but having experience in the conduct of war kinda have an upper hand when youve dealt with same situations before. Also Imperium is no longer fighting on multiple fronts giving them new worlds to conquer and there numbers go up alot, the orks can do this too but there busy still fightin each other and The Imperium which means more fronts to defend as there fighting each other and them. Just a few of the many examples why Id think The Imperium win

Xav wrote:
Could Emporers Faithful possibly be Emporer trying to spread Imperial lies? Is the Golden Throne fitted with a Laptop?

Of course not! (I'm the next-closest thing though) And I hear they've got great reception there...

It's very simple...The Imperium would/will win because of the SPACE WOLVES!!!!!!! Russ will come back to find one of the only chapters even close to legion size, and the poor orks won't even know what hit them!

I will note that the ork empire fighting the 'nids (from Planetstrike, I can't remember the name and don't have the book here) suddenly was let loose they would cause some SERIOUS problems for the Empire.

Consider this Children on the Emporer.
Well the Imperium as a whole are idiots, simple, they have dreadought bodys, but the knowledge of how to make a dreadnought is LOST. Everytime they make a ship they loose knowledge and get worse and worse.
Orks: Re-produce on the front line with combat knowledge which a guardsman could not acheive into several months of training.

There are bigger, stronger and immune to diseases. Imperial Guardsman commanders to make mistakes and see Armagddon as your example, legion etc. You forget there are arrogent stupid commanders out there.

There are worboss's out there that could kill the Emporer!

Dont you dare question me on this, it says somewhere Horus saves the Emporer from being strangled by a Giant Ork warboss.

So you have to remeber Virus bombs are rare and will weaken will time. Orks are great at adapting tech and could loot a titan, if left half destroyed. They can produce fleets faster then Imperium, there are Orks in multiple Galaxy which WILL be included in this battle.

Every dead Titan/knight/space marine/guardsman wont come back quick enough.

Titans cant be made so they are limited in numbers. Roughly 80 billion guardsman?

Average Guardsman (JOE) VS Average Ork (Mulka).
Joe has a lasgun and standard armour for a guardsman.
Mulka has a pistol and an axe, Mulka would win. Orks are superior to Guardsman, and Guardsman take like 20 years to bring back.

Orks have been around since C'tan times, so like a billion years. Imagine an Ork releases 100 spores per lifetime, each Spore becames an Ork.

Someone do the MATHHAMMER and work it out Ork releases roughly hundred spores over billion years multiple.

yeah, if ALL orks were fightin' the imperium and galaxy would be doomed, my votes on them

But you forget. Orks are dumbass. Emprah/Imperium badass. BIG difference.

Also, we only know that Horus intervened in the fight, killing the warboss as he tried to strangle the Emprah. TRIED. I don't have to go through the fact that the Emprah could easily melt his mind, do I?

We KNOW that it is pretty much impossible for orks to unite. (Look at the top of the forum) And even the ork dex mentions this.

Also, while titans are nigh on priceless, what makes you think they can NEVER be replaced? One of the dexes (I think CoD) mentions a NEWLY founded Titan Legion.
You may think that ships get worse, but they DON'T. That is what the STC's are for. The help the Tech Preists keep true to form.

Lord-Loss wrote:Consider this Children on the Emporer.
Well the Imperium as a whole are idiots, simple, they have dreadought bodys, but the knowledge of how to make a dreadnought is LOST. Everytime they make a ship they loose knowledge and get worse and worse.
Orks: Re-produce on the front line with combat knowledge which a guardsman could not acheive into several months of training.

As EF said, intelligence is not on the side of the greenskin....

Dreads can still be repaired , built, same for ships.

Orks also do not reproduce on the front. Plus have the exp of some feral beasts, called instinct.

Lord-Loss wrote:
There are bigger, stronger and immune to diseases. Imperial Guardsman commanders to make mistakes and see Armagddon as your example, legion etc. You forget there are arrogent stupid commanders out there.

None of the most arrogant and stupid commanders is as tactical untouched as 99% of the orks.
Armageddon, fine. Proves the fail of orks always winning as argument here.

Lord-Loss wrote:
So you have to remeber Virus bombs are rare and will weaken will time. Orks are great at adapting tech and could loot a titan, if left half destroyed. They can produce fleets faster then Imperium, there are Orks in multiple Galaxy which WILL be included in this battle.

virus are not soo hard to reproduce.
Fast produced crappy tech gets blown apart easily.
Why ignore the fact that orks do not willfully navigate in space, just go where their fate leads?

And its time to drop that nonsense about multiple galaxys in 40k. The only race from outside are the nids.

Lord-Loss wrote:
Every dead Titan/knight/space marine/guardsman wont come back quick enough.

the legion of the damned marines always return....

But dead orks stay dead.

Lord-Loss wrote:
Average Guardsman (JOE) VS Average Ork (Mulka).
Joe has a lasgun and standard armour for a guardsman.
Mulka has a pistol and an axe, Mulka would win. Orks are superior to Guardsman, and Guardsman take like 20 years to bring back.

Joe has some friends with big guns. Mulka wont make it.

Lord-Loss wrote:
Orks have been around since C'tan times, so like a billion years. Imagine an Ork releases 100 spores per lifetime, each Spore becames an Ork.

Someone do the MATHHAMMER and work it out Ork releases roughly hundred spores over billion years multiple.

Another example of changing fluff to fit.

Lets see. Orks were made from old ones. Orks fougth, but when the pointy eared were sly enough to hide, orks still tried to win.
Necrontyr conquered the galaxy and their ctan lords harvested anything. Orks cut down to a few hiding spores.
Orks rebuild numbers, but pointy eared rule the stars. Pointy eared fail and mankind rises.
Emperor slaughters any threatening xenos, cutting down orks again to a few hiding fungi.
Without the emperor around, orks stick their head out again.

Plus include in your mathhammering the fact that the ork race consists of orks, grotz, snotlings and squigs.
Spores become one of these types of ork. So not all are orks, maybe more supporting little critters than warriors.
Additionally, life forms only sport that much spores if they expect most of them to die.
Nowhere is stated all spores grow up successfully.

So please mathhammer all these points.

FYI Dreads can not be re-built, it says in C:SM. Mulkan also has friends with big guns, but were not including them. Your not answering the question average Guardsman vs Average Ork boy, Ork boy wins.


Orks achauly come out of the Spore with the knowledge how to fight, not instincts.
Like orks come out with the knowledge how to make stuff.

Titans are a list tech, and ships aint built off a STC.


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I like Xavs answer in the last thread, and 10k years ago i think the Imperium would have won. But seriously without the Primarchs or the Emporer and half they tech they cant even re-produce. The imperium is a gak hole built of religion and old tech that cant be replaced.

Have you Really read C: SM?


so ork boy wins...... the price for worst smelling fungi ?

Excluding whatever makes your comparision worthless wont save you.

Guard is a shooty faction. Looking at them only in HTH may not cover them correctly.

Perhaps an average guard MAY lose to an average boy, (though there are plenty of cases of it not going so well for orksies in one-on-one combat). But this is beside the point. Just look at the thread title. Orks Vs IMPERIUM.

What the HELL do you know about how spaceships are built? Just read th chaos part of the BRB. Mentions Abbadon attacking a hive planet so that the nearby ship foundry wouldn't have anyone to make or crew the NEW ships.

Also, quit it with the hyperbole about other galaxies ruled over by gargantuan orks.

Read the title ORKS vs Imperium that means all Orks, so ha!

Well we know there about 80billion guardsman, and an unknown number of Orks but evidence shows they vastly outnumber the Imperial forces, but not as well equiped.

Just start this gak about the Imperium would bomb the Orks, cause they wouldnt, otherwise they always would.

...I know it meant all orks. If it was just Mulka vs Imperium then he would be fist-$£@^ed in SO many different ways.

We know that orks probably outnumber IG. But it is very unlikely that they outnumber ALL humans. (Remember hive cities and such)

Just START? this gak? (I believe an edit is order)
Also, if this is the only threat that mankind faces, I don't think they would hesitate to bomb whatever they need to.

In terms of sheer numbers and planets Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race

Guardsmen are not a race. Humanity is a race.

Orks outnumber humans, which isn't surprising since they also have more planets.

Where does it say that? *serious question and serious face*

Also, hate to bring it up again but occupying does not necessarily mean controlling. And even if that were the case you would HAVE to be including all those gretchins and snotlings, which are at least a DOZEN times more common than the average boy. the humble IG or even 8-year-old girl, is a bloody space marine compared to a gretchin/snotling.

Thank you Orkeosaurus.

Emporer Bitch, as im going to call you cause you love him so much

Well Malka is one Ork yes, he could not stand vs the Imperium.

Average Joe could not stand against the whole Ork race.

Two correct statements, but this is all the Orks, and the ones from other galaxys and they are the dominant race there.

The imperial sentinals have come back with Ork gak recorded in them.
If Orks dont have a challenge apart from themselves, they are going to produce at a alarming rate.


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Emporers Bitch where does it say Grots are more common then boys, i dont think thats true because they die so easily, and quickly.

Ork Bitch (which I shall contiune to brand you if you keep up this name-calling) I was simply arguing that it does not do to simply compare two of the BASIC soldiers and say which one is better to see which RACE winz. (Also, I'm only going to POINT at catachan and the other "toughie" IG...then facepalm you). *facepalm*.

*sigh* Despite the top of the thread clearly saying this was about the civilizations of thr 40k galaxy there are still ork fanboyz (cue Ork Bitch) who hyperbole about galaxies where orks win and are in charge. It's really sad. We all know it's becuase they can never hope forsomething like that to happen when the Imperium is around. *snicker*

*sigh...again* There are definitely more grotz than boyz, but not THAT many becuase there own side killz them so much.

Also, orks send off spores a lot yeah. Some of these spores die. Some don't. And the orks would definitley be a threat if they stopped killing each off at an alarming rate for one SECOND. But they won't. *snicker again*

EF: Where's your evidence?

Because I think it's pretty obvious that Games Workshop (who are in charge of the universe) have said that Orks outnumber humans. I haven't heard a word of evidence from you, only unlikely scenarios that would make me wrong (such as "Games Workshop really meant that Snotlings outnumber humans when they said Orks" and "'Occupy' means they don't 'hold' it").

Well do you have evidence that some Ork spores die?
Everything on the Ork side, we have evidence for, do you have evidence about the speed of Imperium ship creation?

Where you evidence for the number of guard?

We have evidence that identifys the Orks as the biggest race, we have evidence that the Ork could destroy this Galaxy in a green tide.

We have evidence that Orks can loot and produce tech faster then Imperium.

We have evidence that Orks can develop tech unlike the Imperium which cannot produce half there tech anymore eg Dreadnoughts, Titan and Knights.

*sigh* (been doing a lot of that recently)
@Orkeosaurus: oK, I'll admit I don't have a lot to back up my arguement. But surely you can see that only the STRONGEST spores would grow into boyz, and the rest would be grotz and such?

I have no way of knowing the total number of IG. Utterly impossible to calculate. The BRB only points out the biggest planets. Some of which produce over a million regiments per annum. (Same as you cannot truly know the extent of ork numbers)

1) Yes. It has been pointed out to me. A lot. But we know, and the codex itself says, that orks by thier very nature cannot unite.

2) WTF are you talking about? Where IS this tech?

3) WTF are you talking about? (Knights? Grey Knights?) They are people. Not machines. Also, dreds can be reproduced. Just not fast at all. Same with Titans. (I point you to the St Cyliia massacre. Newly founded Princeps legion turned to chaos)


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P.S. Thanks for longer calling me Emprah's Bitch.

A Knight: "Resembling a brutish, mechanical humanoid some nine metres tall, Ares Lictor was a paladin-class Knight, a one-man war machine of deep blue armour plates with a fearsome array of weaponry beyond the power of even the strongest of Terran Emperor's Astartes to bear"

The tech to make dreadnoughts is lost, look the Smurf marine Codex on the dreadnought page.


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The Mechs are born already knowing how to make gak so they can produce stuff faster then any Imperial world could.

WFT?!? I've never even HEARD of these guys! What are they? Termie/Drednoughts?

I doubt it is lost completely, but I don't have the vanilla codex lying around to prove you wrong. I would say they can. Simply becuase the recover the wreckage and inter new bodies into drednoughts.

*laugh and point while holding ribcage* Okay. Phew. That is so sad. Ok, two words. FORGE...WORLDS...get it? I know mechs get all creative and such, but the flashiest thing I've seen around is there Shokk Attack Gunz, and they get themselves killed almost as much as the enemy. I don't think killa kanz/ dredz and stompas are anytihng fancy or impressive. A 6-year-old human could likely do better! (If the ban on tech wasn't so bad)


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lol, I said WFT, but I meant WTF.

Tech preists aint allowed to mess with the tech or they get beaten up, i have evidence for that too!

Knights are like the Adepts bitches like Titans realy there owned by the Adepts.

But Imperium tech works fine as it is. Well...compared to ork tech.

Also, what exactly do these knights have to DO with anything?

Well the knights are another example of lost tech. The point is a stompa is probaly worst then a warhound titan, but can be made far swifter then Titans, i gotta disagree about Ork tech, they can do alot of things the Imperium cant.

It's no secret that tech is lost. But it is also no secret that tech is just as often found. STC's and such. I was arguing that Titans CAN be built. Same with ships and (hopefully) dreds. (If ur wrong)

You want to hear a quote from naval officer?

Sailor/whatever: Sir! We hit the Ork Ship!
Captain: And?
Sailor: Well, it's trailing debris, sir!
Captain: Sailor, they're orks. That ship was trailing debris before we did anything about it.

Imperium tech get's a lot fewer of there own side killed. And probably breaks down a lot less.

The last big STC find was at the Heresy and forgod sake HORUS gave them that lol.

WTF are you talking about?
There have been COUNTLESS STC finding. Admitedly most are patched together, or about things as simple as how to best forge a blade. But there are PLENTY of STC findings.

Yes, but the point is Orks can never be defeated because they release alot of spores and have been like everywhere, so for the Orks thats victory. Imperium could just about push the Orks back to the edge of the Milky way, but will still get raided pretty frequiently so victory for Imperium.

So that makes it a 1-1 so a draw, into they destroy each other, which will never happen.

Not dying is not victory.
Defeating your opponent is victory.
Hiding in a cave is only scraping a survival.

If Imperium proves its dominance in the galaxy then then that is an Imperium Victory.

But is pushing them to the outside of the Galaxy Victory?
And its not just about victory in imperial eyes it about victory in Ork eyes too.

Lord-Loss wrote:Well do you have evidence that some Ork spores die?
Everything on the Ork side, we have evidence for, do you have evidence about the speed of Imperium ship creation?

Where you evidence for the number of guard?

We have evidence that identifys the Orks as the biggest race, we have evidence that the Ork could destroy this Galaxy in a green tide.

We have evidence that Orks can loot and produce tech faster then Imperium.

We have evidence that Orks can develop tech unlike the Imperium which cannot produce half there tech anymore eg Dreadnoughts, Titan and Knights.

Your evidence consists of ?
Self written fluff?

No quotes? Could it be there is nothing to quote?


Now lets have a look at official GW publications:

IIUP( pages 65 to67):

Of all the pestilent race that infest our galaxy, the orks are the more numerous .
They mass together in great war bands and by sheer weight of numbers they overwhelm those who stand before them.
Cowards! But a man, armed with a lasgun and knowledge of their physiology, has nothing to fear from these abominations.

An ork is an unworthy foe, little more than an animal that has, by some twist of nature, a very basic understanding of the rudiments of technology. Theories abound as to their true nature. Some reports suggest they are fungus which produces spores in order to reproduce. It is certain that no one has managed to identify a female ork, or it may be the casethat the female orks look like the males. Such questions are unimportant.

Its enough to know that an ork is slow witted and will cause no problems for a proper trained imperial infantryman.
It is far more appropriate to compare the brain capacity of an ork to a plant than its to any sentient lifeform. Its capable of little cohesive thought , and is easily confused by loud noises or sudden movement.

Orks live in tribes, known as clans. The largest and most savage of them will rise to be their leader, by very dint of its size and brutishness. These violent war clans, led by their boss, will attack anything in their way. Orks positively live to fight ( tough
they have little skill at it ), it is what drives and motivates them. This can work to your advantage; an ork is without the capacity to think intelligently, and its every move can be predicted.

Thats not to say they are entirely without menace. But only to the untrained and weak-willed. They are relatively strong and tough, and their phisiology is made up in such way as to give them a remarkable tolerance to pain and a capacity to regenerate very quickly if wounded. However, this presents little crisis; they just require more shooting than other targets.

Addendum-orks are cowards. Atactic they often employ is to send forward waves of their smaller brethren (gretchins) ahead of the main advance to soak up fire. Make prodigious use of flamer weapons as the bright light and the heat terrifies these ork runts, adding confusion to the ranks.

An ork can seem an alarmingly prospect when first encountered. They stand taller than a man, with hunched, broad shoulders and long arms. They may seem to be heavily muscled, but the fact is their muscle tissue is not as dense as a humans. In actuality they are considerably weaker than the average man, despite what their appearance suggests. Their skin is thick and coarse and ranges in hue from green to almost black. Portions of their body are covered in stiff black hair. Their brow is heavy ( denoting their lack of intellect) and their little, almost useless eyes have a red cast to them. They have great tusks which jut from their mouths, but they are not sharp and a firm tug will pull them out by the root.

When confronting orks in combat remember their weaknesses and consider the facts;
they are but animals, and they have no place in our galaxy where they prey only on the weak and helpless. After they have seen you with a loaded lasgun and a smile on your face, you can shoot them in the back as they run away!

(ii) The warboss is always the biggest and toughest ork in the band. It keeps all the others in line by virtue of its dominance, size and strength. Because of its size it will present an easier target. A shot to the face will drop the alien scum like a sack of sand.

(iii) Boyz make up the rank and file of the ork rabble. They are usually armed with crude machine guns and cannons wich frequently misfire and jam. These bestial brutes are no match for the proud Imperial Guard, and disciplined fire into the body or head will end their miserable lives.

(iv) Nobs are generally larger than boyz, and can be considered more dangerous. They are sometimes equipped with a primitive version of power armor. They will be heavily armed with ranged and close combat weapons, and they delight in the loud noises they make. Chances are they will be so engrossed in the explosions and cracks emanating from their ( probably malfunctioning) weapons that they wont notice you creeping up on them to administer a killing shot into their eye.

Orks are capable of building makeshift vehicles but be aware: variations are widespread and no standard pattern exists. The only consistency is the instability of all their transports.
Further proof of the aliens instability!



See, evidence of the superiority of the imperial guard.

And i am still curious where some green-faced fanbois get the idea of lost STC tech from.

Example:

FW had the executioner as rare vehicle. GW took over this tank in plastic and dropped that, so anyone may field as much executioners as he desires to.
FW produced the baneblades, GW took over and dropped the idea of rare superheavies. Now plastic kits got backup from datasheets to field super heavy tanks not only as companies but also as regiments.

Therefore i doubt the lack of abilities in fluff to produce any desired tech if there is a plastic kit to sell in real life.
Background has to adopt. And it does. Read the SM dex. Any hint on irreplacable tech isn't there anymore.






PS: i have to thank EF for his stalwart defense of 40ks background.

"Lo and behold! Although they were without number and their evil knew no bounds, EF held the gate for a night and a day. Never faltering in his duty, never sparing a moments hesitation. For the Emprah was with him, and the Emprah was AWESOME."

Thanks for the Reinforcements! lol

It kind of annoys me when people talk about orks being all over the entire universe, Orks that are outside the galaxy, even if united against the Imperium, would not have any effect the outcome of the war.

ok, so yea, imperial probes come back with ork chatter, you know current real world probes come back with? human chatter!

radio waves travel at light speed forever, so orks that were talking on radios 1,000,000 years ago from when the old ones created them would have signals out in deep space.

I stand by my earlier statement

Better Space Navy
Exterminatus
Win

with no other threats but orks, then the loss of a few key forge worlds would not hurt the imperium after the ork threat is neutralized from exterminatus.

the imperium cannot use exterminatus at will right now because of the sheer number of threats from every angle make the loss of even a single forge world quite crippling.

Definitely. Though if you've read anything about how much 'nids it took to take on a single forge world, you'll realise orks will have an even TOUGHER time. (Whole Titan legions stand ready, and tanks are produced faster than they are lost).

Its mentioned in nurmerious threads that if the Orks were BANDED together then they could beat up the Imperium and Emporers faithful pretty easily.


Lost tech, alot of lost tech: Dreads, knights etc.

Now if the Orks were so easy to kill then why are they still raiding numerious planets and kicking the gak outa the guard of that planet?

There were Orks on Armaggeden after the second war?
The guard couldnt wipe them out.
You didnt seem to outline the good stuff about Orks lol. But your also forgetting humans have fear? A large green brute is swinging a big sword at you, are you gonna run?

Warbosses being weak? Tell that to Ghakya Thraka!

I don't think anything has been added to this discussion since the last thread.

Ghakya Thraka? I assume you mean Ghazgkull.
Were is he again? Oh yeah, that's right, RUNNING AWAY!

Also, the Imperium hasn't wiped out orks becuase they have been fighting EVRYONE. This is one on one. And you have to realise that orks are NEVER going to be NEARLY as united as Imperium.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I don't think anything has been added to this discussion since the last thread.

I have to agree Orkeosaurus, i like Xavs conclusion.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I don't think anything has been added to this discussion since the last thread.

Yes, i ve noticed youre the only ork supporter providing back up for your points.

Sadly, this discussion will move nowhere, since your faction refuses to use fluff and instead keeps on posting " we winz".

Which they dont.
Because 40k is set to have everyone believing he wins. Try codex orks and codex Tau.
If you not read the other codex, you get the impression your army won. 2 winners?

"But uz Orkz alwa'z beatz the uman'z"

I actually don't support the Orks winning if they can't unite.

They normally have no desire to work together as a race, so it's really a matter of "can any Ork faction defeat the Imperium", which is a no, or "without other races present would Orks become united against humanity", which seems unlikely. (Of course, if they're being treated as a whole due to the nature of the hypothetical, they clearly do win.)

(This is all assuming "win" means "take more of the galaxy".)

I agree, a definition of "winning in the 1 vs 1 setting = ? " may be the source of our running in circles.

So, to win all out total war means:

- annihilate your opponent?
- destroy the organizational structure of your opponent?
- control more systems/planets than your opponent?

1hadhq wrote:
Yes, i ve noticed youre the only ork supporter providing back up for your points.

Sadly, this discussion will move nowhere, since your faction refuses to use fluff and instead keeps on posting " we winz".

Which they dont.
Because 40k is set to have everyone believing he wins. Try codex orks and codex Tau.
If you not read the other codex, you get the impression your army won. 2 winners?

ENTER SAVIOR:
"Their number is beyond counting" "Should the Orks ever truly unify, they would crush all opposition and drown the civilised races in a tide of gore."
-Phil Kelly-
So yeah, wow GW, the authers of this little make believe universe you are so happily arguing about also agrees with the ork fanboys as you like to call us that if they unite ALL races(Man, Tau, Chaos, Tyranids, etc) not just the imperium will burn in our orky boot prints.
And yes if they were to be left against the imperium they would unite.
You may want to actually learn to read the others codexes before quoting them, it states in the tau codex that durring the imperiums incursion the tau were DEFETED, in the Tyranid codex they were DEFETED by the space marines. Need any more refrances? So in the end if you are a player of one of the said codexes your army wasnt a winner. Sigh... Dumbasses.
Do we the orks need any more proof of our domanance?

GAHHHH

Ok im spamming, but most of you are too....

And i read it all....seriously. Its a bunch of Imp and Ork fans flinging poo at each other. Since humans are part of the fight, i stand by my monkey comparison.

Because backed up by fluff boith win. just depends on what Codex you are reading.

Thank you GW for conflicting fluff.

Want to read crap fluff because it conflicts? Read anything GW.

Its cool to read, but can be disproven by the next guys fluff.

1hadhq wrote:I agree, a definition of "winning in the 1 vs 1 setting = ? " may be the source of our running in circles.

So, to win all out total war means:

- annihilate your opponent?
- destroy the organizational structure of your opponent?
- control more systems/planets than your opponent?

Do me a favor and pull out your 5th ed rule book turn to page 106 and look at the area of control the orks possess.
-annihalte your opponent... they conquer multiple systems every waaagh! before they can be stoped.
-destroy the organizational structure of your opponent... They conquer the entire system, so there's no chance of a regroup in that system.
-control more systems/planets than your opponent... every world they conquer the leave thousands of orks/meks along with spores released from the last battle.
Anymore proof needed?
P.S. and yes this is info strate from the FLUFF. Not out of my head.


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Voronesh wrote:GAHHHH

Ok im spamming, but most of you are too....

And i read it all....seriously. Its a bunch of Imp and Ork fans flinging poo at each other. Since humans are part of the fight, i stand by my monkey comparison.

Because backed up by fluff boith win. just depends on what Codex you are reading.

Thank you GW for conflicting fluff.

Want to read crap fluff because it conflicts? Read anything GW.

Its cool to read, but can be disproven by the next guys fluff.

Actaully there are lines in imperial codexes/novels that support the dominance of the ork race.
"I fear it will be them and not us who rule this galexy in the end"
-Imperial Commander-

Just to reiterate:
-We know Ork would win if they united.
-We also know that is about as likely as the Emprah and co. coming back and pawining all.
-So we must assume that orks cannot be WHOLLY united in their fight against the Imperium

It's actually been stated that there are many events occuring in the galaxy that are starting to worry the Imperium. Thraka looks to be uniting more orks now than has ever been united before, and Wazdakka is uniting the speed freeks like never before. Do I smell some 40K universe expansion, I hope so!!!

Chosen Praetorian wrote:


ENTER SAVIOR:
"Their number is beyond counting" "Should the Orks ever truly unify, they would crush all opposition and drown the civilised races in a tide of gore."
-Phil Kelly-
So yeah, wow GW, the authers of this little make believe universe you are so happily arguing about also agrees with the ork fanboys as you like to call us that if they unite ALL races(Man, Tau, Chaos, Tyranids, etc) not just the imperium will burn in our orky boot prints.

So i should be unhappily arguing .....

that orks will never unify.
Because thats their inbuild disclaimer.

I dont see any way how they should unite or why. Would be completly against the orks nature to do so.

Chosen Praetorian wrote:
You may want to actually learn to read the others codexes before quoting them,

At least i am capable of reading and did also quote "as is".

I like referances but didnt see them here.
Maybe insert a quote yourself or at least care to show us the page number?

Chosen Praetorian wrote:
it states in the tau codex that durring the imperiums incursion the tau were DEFETED, in the Tyranid codex they were DEFETED by the space marines. Need any more refrances? So in the end if you are a player of one of the said codexes your army wasnt a winner. Sigh... Dumbasses.
Do we the orks need any more proof of our domanance?

If you explain me
-defeted = is this de-fethed or de- fated or ? Maybe ill-fated typing?

So yes i need more referances.
And no, my point was the contradicting fluff . Still : o shovah vs orks and orks vs o-shovah.

Plus i do not doubt the orks need / want / believe in their dominance.

But proof?

Chosen Praetorian wrote:It's actually been stated that there are many events occuring in the galaxy that are starting to worry the Imperium. Thraka looks to be uniting more orks now than has ever been united before, and Wazdakka is uniting the speed freeks like never before. Do I smell some 40K universe expansion, I hope so!!!

Maybe the rulebook helps you out here, page116 upper left corner, boxed text "imperius dominatus"

Xenos may rise, but we will hand them their asses....

...on a silver platter.
*high five @ 1hadhq*

Ok still the if discussion going on.

Metagaming it.... GW will never let all the Orks unit, so they cant win against the Imperium. Also GW will never let the Emperor come back or Russ or whoever from the heroes of old. So the Imperium wont win either.

Perfect stalemate for a great game. Any discussion is based on ifs that never will be.....and has been revolving around that since post 1 or so?


Oh and i wish the could finally call him the Imperator, cause mixing languages is so awful. High Gothic is basically latin, imperium certainly is latin, why give the guy at the head an english title? Target group thought to be unable to handle this little latin?

Voronesh wrote:Ok still the if discussion going on.

Metagaming it.... GW will never let all the Orks unit, so they cant win against the Imperium. Also GW will never let the Emperor come back or Russ or whoever from the heroes of old. So the Imperium wont win either.

Perfect stalemate for a great game. Any discussion is based on ifs that never will be.....and has been revolving around that since post 1 or so?


Oh and i wish the could finally call him the Imperator, cause mixing languages is so awful. High Gothic is basically latin, imperium certainly is latin, why give the guy at the head an english title? Target group thought to be unable to handle this little latin?

I'll have to agree with this and let the argument go, GW will never support any of this in the first place.
@ ihadhq I believe the only ones getting their asses handed to them were the Nazis!
In my latest revalation I believe it would be a never ending war that the orks would never want to win.
P.S. WE WINZ WE WINZ WE WINZ

Oh and i wish the could finally call him the Imperator, cause mixing languages is so awful. High Gothic is basically latin, imperium certainly is latin, why give the guy at the head an english title? Target group thought to be unable to handle this little latin?

Interestingly enough:

The Latin word Imperator was a title originally roughly equivalent to commander during the period of the Roman Republic. It later went on to become a part of the titulature of the Roman Emperors as part of their cognomen. The English word emperor derives from the Latin word "imperator", via its French descendent empereur. There is no direct Latin equivalent of the English word emperor, however - the Roman Emperors gained authority from a large group of titles and positions, as opposed to any single title. Nevertheless, Imperator maintained a relatively constant status as a part of a Roman ruler's title throughout the principate (derived from princeps, from which prince in English is derived) and the dominate. -- Wikipedia

It would seem the words do actually have a different meaning.

We all know that Emprah is not coming back and the orks are not uniting until GW go absolutely bonkers.

As to the OP, this is Imperium NOW Vs Orks NOW.

As is, Imperium's taking on all comers, not just orks. With only that single, divided threat, Imperium would win.

Wow, this topic just will not die. If the thread is any kind of indication, the war would rage on forever. And to add my two cents (yet again, albeit in this thread), the Orks would lose. They would lose horribly. They would be scourged as a race from the Milky Way.

Sigh... you people and your love for a rotting carcass!
I guess your devotion should be admired if nothing else can be.
You all say the imperiam would win but the votes say different!

Well, if it was only about democracy of course the Orks would win!

Orks aren't fighting anyone else? Every race is fighting on multiple divided fronts against every other race. So the lack of other foes would effect both sides.

Edit: d'oh - didn't notice the new page. My above is to Emperor's Faithful.

Chosen Praetorian wrote:
@ ihadhq I believe the only ones getting their asses handed to them were the Nazis!

any relevance to 40k there?



About our not so dead venerated leader, he who is the light of the galaxy, professional GT sitter and sadly wont come back soon...

As per GW, the emperor. Now we get "der imperator" where i live.
And IIRC there is a self crowned le empereur ( mr bonaparte ) , several elected german Kaiser ( role model for
whfb) , russian Czars or chinese emperors.
Good question where GW "borrowed" the idea for the 40k emperor from.

So we have the emperor. And its ork equivalent is?

Chosen Praetorian wrote:Sigh... you people and your love for a rotting carcass!
I guess your devotion should be admired if nothing else can be.
You all say the imperiam would win but the votes say different!

You sir, are a heretic! The votes have been cheated, as is the Ork way. Devotion to the Emperor is not something to be merely admired... It is something that is so pure, so unshakeable, that it should be feared! The Orks would be forced to fight war on a wide frontier, where their total disorder would begin to rot from within the very core of their race... Without a true leader, not a single one of them to keep the Ork machine at war, all would collapse because of weak foundations... If the Imperium is chopped down to the last few bricks and mortar, the Orks would have the hardest part of the war trying to destroy humanity's deep-reaching tap-root.

1hadhq wrote: And its ork equivalent is?

The biggest guy in the room. (Orks don't really have an equivalent because they've evolved beyond the need for lighthouses)

I think the problem is that many people are just posting thier vote and not reading the conditions of the OP.

If they saw the conditions ALL sane peoplez would realise that the Imperium would tear the orks a new one.

Imperium
1. they have about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 leman russ tanks that would pwninate the orcs
2. they have about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 guardsmen ready to defend and die!
3. they have about 10,000 chapters of marines that are not like gw made them, but movie marines that could pwn everyone
4. titans
5. super heavy tanks

I think you may need to reread your numbers.

Yes.
If there were 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Tanks and an Equal number of IG, then most of those tanks would be pretty useless as no one can drive 'em.

Orks stop and fight amongst themselves after wiping out 85% of the human population. Imperium "wins" only to be wiped out by genestealers a decade later.

...yeah, coz genestealers are TOTALLY included in the ork race...

*facepalm*
Read the OP.

Lord_Lockhart wrote:Allright here is the scenario for this massive undertaking so no loopholing

1: everyone else decided to leave today and went to the next galaxy,
-besides all orks and all the forces of the imperium and the current inhabitants of both civs-

2: chaos gods are still around just their demons and marines have also left, warp is also still ok

3: this is total war,nothing one on one on a planet, this is a war in between races

4: no multiple votes! if you have a second account or not please do not vote twice

5: and for any of you true, lore less, men out there; with imperium i do include the Astartes

6: with, war between races, i do not say that orks immediately start off as a united faction, but are in their current state for the start of this war.

7: this is too the death of the other race!!!! or too such an extent that the other race has the abilty to supress the other into a unsignificant threat like how we dont care about grizzly bears(near extinct animals), your just scared when you go camping.

Vote

If looking for opinions there is already a thread started (where of course my idea for a poll started)

Edit: for a improvement in the outline of the scenario

Orks are united. Warp is still here, so chaos demons is still here.

Lord-Loss wrote:

Lord_Lockhart wrote:Allright here is the scenario for this massive undertaking so no loopholing

1: everyone else decided to leave today and went to the next galaxy,
-besides all orks and all the forces of the imperium and the current inhabitants of both civs-

2: chaos gods are still around just their demons and marines have also left, warp is also still ok

3: this is total war,nothing one on one on a planet, this is a war in between races

4: no multiple votes! if you have a second account or not please do not vote twice

5: and for any of you true, lore less, men out there; with imperium i do include the Astartes

6: with, war between races, i do not say that orks immediately start off as a united faction, but are in their current state for the start of this war.

7: this is too the death of the other race!!!! or too such an extent that the other race has the abilty to supress the other into a unsignificant threat like how we dont care about grizzly bears(near extinct animals), your just scared when you go camping.

Vote

If looking for opinions there is already a thread started (where of course my idea for a poll started)

Edit: for a improvement in the outline of the scenario

Orks are united. Warp is still here, so chaos demons is still here.

Underlined what you should read before quoting it....

The trolls would win...
Hail Gwar!

corpsesarefun wrote:The trolls would win...
Hail Gwar!

trolls get usually hunted down and put to the torch...

1hadhq wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:The trolls would win...
Hail Gwar!

trolls get usually hunted down and put to the torch...

No!
the mighty troll horde shall be victorious!
The world of Chan IV has fallen! the whole galaxy shall soon fall!
Hail gwar! and lord cheese the fallen!

/roleplaying

for the continuous story of the troll hordes battles with the forces of dakka check out the DakkaDakka: The Troll Wars saga thread in the fiction section

+1

The Imperium would win obviously. It really doesn't matter what the poll says as the only people who are right are the ones that correctly identified the Imperium as winning.

Orks are a divisive species and are simply never going to unite behind one leader. It's too easy for the Imperials to set one faction against another and the bigger the opposing ork forces, the more that are going to die at once.

The Imperium was kicking ork butt during the Great Crusade, it was the Imperium turning on itself during the heresy that changed that. An Imperium freed from other threats would burn the orks out of the galaxy to the point where they posed no significant threat.

Frankly if it weren't for the ruinous powers, the other races would barely exist and I believe even the nids would have been held at arms length.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and four pages is not really that much for a topic of this importance.

Most people on here are right the orks would win. IF THEY COULD STOP FIGHTING EACH OTHER! but they cant, and the imperium has so pretty nasty stuff so imperium

Cadbren@So if people vote and there wrong (In your opinion) there opinions dont count?

Well if the Imperium was winning (on the poll) you Imperial people would be saying thats correct.

There has been another thread about this at like 6-pages. No-one will agree so we just have to use the poll to show us the answer now can this thread die now, please?

most of the imperiums problems are with internal security issues. remove chaos from the picture and that alone will be enough to allow the Imperium to refocus on keeping up with the Waargh. it will be brutal but i think da humie can ouithorde even the orks, allowing for the nasty things the Imperium can do to large concentrations of orks.

If the chaos powers are still around as the scenario proposes humans will continue to fall prey to their depredations. Thus, the Imperium is certainly not united. Witch hunters and such will continue the civil strife to justify their continued existence. Such organizations do not quietly leave the stage. Humanity continues to fight itself as usual in the scenario.

However, with only one racial enemy left, the Orks will unite. This will not be the usual union under a single Warboss's Waaagh! Rather all Orks will be seeking out the reduced number of enemies available for a good scrap. Fighting themselves is just not as much fun as fighting someone else.

Every band of Orks will descend upon humanity for the sole reason that they are the only race left to fight. They will no longer need any greater cause beyond finding the last few critters wot can give 'em a proppa fite. This unity of action will be the death knell for the Imperium as it is clear that such unity would destroy all enemies of da Orks.

Ok, so seeing all this comparison of numbers in the races of each species, its funny to note that a good less than 1% of the human population is even under arms .... yes not every spore becomes an ork but those that become gretchin become snacks/meaat shields and those that become snotlings become spore tenders and ammo ...

People talk about orks lack of centralised control ... as if they need that? word would spread that all da uvver good fights is done, and its time to head towards the tinkan boy sitting on his yellow chair.

The fact that fighting orks outnumber the IG hundreds of thousands of times over if not millions is pretty funny ....

Also as to the whole navy statements, they had the navy at armageddon and what happened? yea an entire sector battlefleet couldnt stop them form making planetfall, and if what i read in the grey knights omnibus is any indication armageddon has fallen after the third war now .... so yea.

The imperium couldnt even defend the most critical forgeworld in an entire sector with all their strength massed there, against one waaaaagh of mabye like 15 that are currently ongoing in full swing lol ....

I just read the dreadnought page in my Space Marine Codex after Lord Loss said that Dreadnoughts can't be re-built or built new.

There is nothing on that page that says anything about the Imperium not being able to create new dreadnoughts. It just says that marines will fight for fallen dreadnoughts, because they are not as easy to reproduce as a bolter.

Apart from that, I'd like to throw a little argument into the pot: While mankind is, especially with Chaos gone, united under the banner of the Imperium, the majority of ork worlds probably are not even AWARE of the human species. How should they? There is no interstellar communication for orks. There is only space travel for a small percentage of orks, for those who have Meks with huge capabilities.

So, the point is, why should orks suddendly unite against humanity?

1. Orks never change, because their DNA never changes, which means they'll keep fighting themselves like they do at the moment. Forever. Period.
2. Ork "civilizations" on the numerous planets the inhabit in the galaxy that were never conquered or explored by humans simply do not know that humans exist. They would only get to know of their existence when a battlegroup moves in and shells the crap out of their planet. As far as someone gives me a page number where it states that orks have interstellar communication of any sort, I think this argument is vital. And, no, they can't know how mankind because of their DNA, because orks where engineered at a time where there were no humans.

I therefore agree with the Imperials in this thread. Orks are mainly unorganized. Yes, there are some Waaaghs that will beat the crap out of imperial planets, but because they don't rally to one big Waaagh I don't see them taking whole space sectors. On the other hand, the united Imperium can send out crusades like in the 31st millenium, organized battlegroup of imperial navy and guard that can scan every world from orbit and decide to simply pound away and annihilate every ork on the surface if they don't think the planet's worth attacking by foot.

The huge number of Orks might produce fear in some hearts, but the Orks are like atoms in an object, everything moving in its own direction, bouncing off other atoms. The Imperium is like a focused, one-directional conversion beam that will rip through one atom after another, obliterating them all.

With the chaos powers and warp intact (see point 2 in the initial post), there is no unity in the imperium. More humans will fall to chaos replacing the marines and traitor guard who mysteriously vanished. Humanity would hardly be a focused conversion beam. They couldn't even stay focused while their emperor lived. Horus did arise while he lived, didn't he? Didn't the emperor have to go around committing atrocities against his own people to "unite" humanity in the first place? Don't we constantly read about witchcraft, heresy and mutation tearing the imperium apart? Aren't guardsmen notoriously corrupt and bankrupt of morale? Don't unscrupulous human elements constantly throw in their lot with a certain clan of orks? Where is the unity in their current state? I'll tell you - it does not exist.

Orks naturally seek out enemies to make war with - it's their one unifying purpose. The "awareness of humans" conjecture is moot because of this. Interstellar communication is a given based on all of the fluff. How do you organize a massive Waaagh without it? Consider also, the interstellar transmissions picked up by the imperial probes. Every tiny tribe of orks has meks. Thus, travel through space and the warp is as common as for humans.

As stated above, the orks would not unite in the usual Waaagh! It would be more of a serendipitous union as they all sought out the last enemies left to fight.

BTW, look at all the differences in culture and physical nature from rogue trader until fourth Edition if you need evidence that orks adapt and change.

Orks can communicate across space. They probably don't communicate particularly well though, no matter where they are. (Go dere! No, da uvver dere, stoopid!)

utan wrote:With the chaos powers and warp intact (see point 2 in the initial post), there is no unity in the imperium. More humans will fall to chaos replacing the marines and traitor guard who mysteriously vanished.

In this threads setting at point 2, chaos is reduced to "gods" and the warp itself.
Demons are also gone, and as far as i remember, those warp-dwellers are the part of chaos thats interacting with the material realm.
Didn't notice direct relationships between humans and those "gods".
I think this faction is cut off, without demons around and the warp is only there to provide a travel route.

utan wrote:
Thus, travel through space and the warp is as common as for humans.

Isnt the orkidex impliying orks just went where the fate puts them?
But humans always try to go a navigated route?

Different travel agency



Plus why do you think humans are less boring to fight than other orks?

Regarding the chaos powers in our little scenario, it doesn't really matter whether they exist in the warp. The corrupt psyches of sentient beings (including humans) created them in the first place. The "gods" are the children of human disunity. Ergo, humans are by nature disorganised and "chaotic".
Orks have a clear, organized and indisputable hierarchy: The biggest is boss - no questions allowed.
It is arguable that Orks are more lawful than humans.

Lord-Loss wrote:Cadbren@So if people vote and there wrong (In your opinion) there opinions dont count?

Well if the Imperium was winning (on the poll) you Imperial people would be saying thats correct.

There has been another thread about this at like 6-pages. No-one will agree so we just have to use the poll to show us the answer now can this thread die now, please?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it hardly seems reasonable to support incorrect ones, no matter how many supporters they have. Polls are an idea of where the masses are going with their thinking, they're not democracies where people have to accept the opinion of the masses, nor are they an indicator of who is right or wrong.

As for the other, people are constantly joining the site and so the same questions and debates are going to happen, get over it.

The problem is when a or dies it releases spores, which turn into more orks. Which is bad.

I'm sorry but the Imperium wouldn't stand a chance against a hunited orc attack, the entire speacis with noting to do but kill 'umies? We'd be dead SOOO fast. Orcs out number a the human population douzens of times over, they are all as tuff as nails where as humans have women and children and week ass men like me. every orc you kill will corse many more orcs to grow at a very fast rate, where as humans you would have to waight at least 18 years for replacements, even longer in the case of decent space mariens. When human tech is destroyed its hard to replace, where as the orcs just stik it back together with snotlings and spit.

Genraly we would be doomed, white dwarfs and other books have always said, if the orcs wernt fighting each other then they could take over the galaxy, not jsut the imperium, everything. All the orcs verses all the over major races, orcs would still kill most of them.

As most people have said and i aggre with them for the fact that if Orcs united they would defeat the imperuim.
Thankfully Most Orks are not that bright and just want to fight that the imperuim has survived to this day and well if Orks attacked lets face it whats much any race could do except kill some and gt overwhelmed and get killed!
But the defence systems on the Moon, Mars and Holy Terra are immense so they might stand a chance of defiting some fleits before getting overwhemmled just like on the crimson Fist chapter planet.

But in the end the crimson fists won? (and it was only close becuase of a major tech marine feth up)

Anyway. Fluff says that orks COULD feth up every race if united. But the same fluff also states that such a unification is impossible. It doesn't matter if there are no more 'nids or chaos or necrons, orks will still be killing each other. Imperium on the other hand, would be able to concentrate it's forces in the orks for once. (No longer threatened by other races)

I know that the crimson fists won i was talking about the feilts landing on the part of the planet. =]

About that stuff that said Orks are crap and Guardman can beat them easily. Its Gak, Why?

Taken from Fugrim: "Whoever said the Greenskins were primitve obviously never had to fight them"

"It seems there was no star system throughout the Galaxy that had not been infested by the Greenskins"

" Greenskin warriors were monstious brutes whose strength was nearly equal of an Astartes warrior"

"There central nerve system was so primitive that they took a great deal of punishment before they lay down and stopped fighting"

"A greenskin warrior was not the equal of an Astartes by any means, but they had raw agression to make up for it, and they had numbers on there side"

"Astartes fired volley after volley into the enemy, but no matter how many fell, it only seemed to spur the survives into a frenzy"

...who said that stuff?
Oh, yeah, the 'Uplifting Primer'. If you didn't realise, thaat's propaganda. Did you seriously think it was serious?

Emperors Faithful wrote:...who said that stuff?
Oh, yeah, the 'Uplifting Primer'. If you didn't realise, thaat's propaganda. Did you seriously think it was serious?

But it got him enraged.....


And yes, the IIUP is official.

Imperium, hands down. Orks are to fighty with...well everyone. There would never be a big enough Warboss to unite all of them against the entirety of the Imperium.

Wow I take a few months off and this debate is STILL going on. I see by votes Orks are winning so at least some people on here dont have their heads up their asses.



I re-read the OP to make sure I understood it. And my opinion i STILL thus.




Imperium/Orks.
Yes at first the Imperium WOULD make a dent in the Ork numbers. BUT, heres the magic BUT. Orks are drawn to war. Its how they are made. As soon as word spreads about a new SUPER fight against humies. Orks are going to realize that means the SM will be there. Orks love fighting them more then anything.
As soon as they ALL know its on with just them and the humies, the Imperium is in SERIOUS trouble. They would ALL come together to get a piece of the pie, and would still completely smash the Imperium into bits. They wouls stop before completely destroying them onlybecause Orks love a good fight, and wouldnt want to be the ONLY things left.

I just cant wrap my head around why you Imperial buffs really think you would beat the Orks in a 1 on 1 brawl. Thats what we do!

Orks? Beat the Imperium, you have to be kidding!

NO SPACE TRAVEL
No matter how fierce they might be the best space tech they can manage is to make hulks that travel randomly in space.

Orks are not a space borne race. Any of the space borne races could therefore easily destroy them.

NO ECONOMY OF SCALE
Furthermore on the economy of scale, the Orks control no where near the resources the Imperium alone controls.

NO CENTRALIZED GOVERNMENT
Orks don't have any organization or unifying creed. They will never be able to organize beyond the lifespan of a single warboss or maintain or govern anything they conquer beyond a single oppressive generation.

SUMMARY
Orks are an occasionally spillover accident, in a galactic strategic context, and if it weren't for legitimate extragalactic and extra dimensional threats there wouldn't be any anymore.

They are essentially space Vandals.

You cant say the Imperium is united with a straight face.

Orks as far as I know, do have warp travel. If they dont how did Old Ghazzy get to Armaggedon for the second time with a large force of Orks. If It took too long according to you Imperial Nutjobs they would have disbanded.

KingCracker wrote:

I just cant wrap my head around why you Imperial buffs really think you would beat the Orks in a 1 on 1 brawl. Thats what we do!

I dont see it beiing a brawl. Why should anyone worth his rank field a stategy based on playing to his opponents strength's?

Remeber there not all heroic guys like GW say. In alot of novels there are corrupt Lord commanders and ones that idiotic mistakes to get glory.


The adapts are very different to humans and might do stuff that is morally wrong killing thousands of people in the process to protect some ancient tech.

If Orks want something to work, then it will. The ork tech is always moving forward, while the Imperium tech stays the same.

Lord-Loss wrote:The ork tech is always moving forward, while the Imperium tech stays the same.

Moving forward to...? Anything that can be built with a blow torch and a welder? Circa Earth 1920? What a joke.

...and the Imperium is staying the same.... as in Space Colonization, Warp Travel, Teleporters, Trans-atmospheric Landers, Cloning?

OK, lets be honest here and step back a bit from the 40k universe fictions, which are largely absurd, and consider the orks. They are a fungus race of militant tribal/clan green warriors, that have a tenuous connection to any high tech equipment at all, no social institutions beyond clans, and are essentially a big fearless green horde whose primary weapon is an axe?

Why would any space borne race actually fight them on the ground? They would simply be destroyed with Artillery, Naval and Air power. They are the technological equivalent of Cortez and the Incas.

Honestly they have the most absurd fiction in 40k, their entire premise is the weakest in the game, and their embarrassing armies look like junk yard wars, and play about as well.

Anyone who alters the machines would be put to death. All the tech you mentioned was created before the heresy.


The orks are Major Physices.

Lord-Loss wrote:The orks are Major Physices.

The orks can't even write a proper sentence, a feature shared apparently by many of their advocates. What is Major Physices?

I'm afraid I am not reaching you here with my attempts at clear writing and empirical points. How about this:

Da ORkzes R da bestest bekuz dey gotz da bestest axes and da most green musklez hur and likez da fittin do mosetests and cawz da orky tekz iiz da bestest and da most urty dakka den any udder....

Indeed....

That kind of moronic drivel shows the Ork army to be what it is, a poorly conceived appeal to the juvenile, and uneducated cretins.

Ive always forgot how to right Psyker properly

If the Orks believe that they can cut through power armour they will, look at the "Ork weapons effective?" thread.

Lord-Loss wrote:

If the Orks believe that they can cut through power armour they will, look at the "Ork weapons effective?" thread.

I have to make them believe they are dead, all of them. Case solved.

LOL, I must agree with Augustus though. Ork tech is hardly moving forward. And in space? They're boned.

Augustus wrote:Moving forward to...? Anything that can be built with a blow torch and a welder? Circa Earth 1920? What a joke.

Whtas with all you people saying that orcs are usless and they will ither be 'crushed by the mity imperium' or that they will only win by pur numbers.

1. Orcs a physicly superior to your standard human.
2.There are dozens of times more of them than humans and ALL of them c an fight (where we have children etc).
3.They repoduce at a rate that is many times faster than our own, so they will will replace their numbers faster than we can.
4.Thier technology may apear crude in many forms but yes it it is just as good as the imperioums if not better and it defanutly is advanceing. Orcs are by far better at telaporter technology for one, able to telaport whole arms to the surface where as the imperium can opnly do a few unis at a time. Thier ships apear crude but they are devistaiting, often many times bigger than impear ships. the shilde teck is also far superior to ours, so much so it is safe to wonder around the outside of the ship without sufacating.
5.Idont remember but someone said the dont have good echonemy or production facilitys? They dont need to thier planning on just nicking ours and making slaves out of those who foolishly surender. Also when the imperioum losses a ship it takes lifetimes to build a new one, the orcs jsut have to weld two imperiul ships back together and hay presto they can come kill you again.
6.Someone also said they have no order or disapline so they wouldn't be able to cordinate an attack. They dont need to, thiers jsut so dam many of them that all want a crack at us, all with one unified goal that they jsut need to zerg everything.
7.You cant jsut bomb them all from space becosue thier would be very few habital planits left. And takticly whoever said that shooting from space and just destroying all thier "Week" ships, please read some warhammer 40k fluff, imperiul ships are powerful but more valuable than people in the imperium, all the ships would run off and let billions die, so thier is gong to be a lot of fighting done on the ground. What is they have taken a Forge world what are are you going to do then? Just blow it all up "Sir all the orcs are now dead, however we are no longer going to be able to suply lasguns or tanks to the gardsmen." "Why?" "Well you blew them all up too." "How dare you question the empore Die Heratic!!".

In shot (Ha short) enless the emporor gets his rincely ass off his golden throun human kind is doomed.

Also all those say "Oh but the orcs would never unite so the imperium would win". please go to the form talking about "Could the orcs all unite?" Rather than this poste which is about "If the orcs unite". you kind of defiting the point of this being a hypithetical discusion.

Yes I am dyslesic no need to try and insult me by saying .Augustus:"Lern to spell noob." *stuk up lagh* *Geeky nazel snort*

TheAlmightyPillock wrote:

Augustus wrote:Moving forward to...? Anything that can be built with a blow torch and a welder? Circa Earth 1920? What a joke.

Whtas with all you people saying that orcs are usless and they will ither be 'crushed by the mity imperium' or that they will only win by pur numbers.

1. Orcs a physicly superior to your standard human.
2.There are dozens of times more of them than humans and ALL of them c an fight (where we have children etc).
3.They repoduce at a rate that is many times faster than our own, so they will will replace their numbers faster than we can.
4.Thier technology may apear crude in many forms but yes it it is just as good as the imperioums if not better and it defanutly is advanceing. Orcs are by far better at telaporter technology for one, able to telaport whole arms to the surface where as the imperium can opnly do a few unis at a time. Thier ships apear crude but they are devistaiting, often many times bigger than impear ships. the shilde teck is also far superior to ours, so much so it is safe to wonder around the outside of the ship without sufacating.
5.Idont remember but someone said the dont have good echonemy or production facilitys? They dont need to thier planning on just nicking ours and making slaves out of those who foolishly surender. Also when the imperioum losses a ship it takes lifetimes to build a new one, the orcs jsut have to weld two imperiul ships back together and hay presto they can come kill you again.
6.Someone also said they have no order or disapline so they wouldn't be able to cordinate an attack. They dont need to, thiers jsut so dam many of them that all want a crack at us, all with one unified goal that they jsut need to zerg everything.
7.You cant jsut bomb them all from space becosue thier would be very few habital planits left. And takticly whoever said that shooting from space and just destroying all thier "Week" ships, please read some warhammer 40k fluff, imperiul ships are powerful but more valuable than people in the imperium, all the ships would run off and let billions die, so thier is gong to be a lot of fighting done on the ground. What is they have taken a Forge world what are are you going to do then? Just blow it all up "Sir all the orcs are now dead, however we are no longer going to be able to suply lasguns or tanks to the gardsmen." "Why?" "Well you blew them all up too." "How dare you question the empore Die Heratic!!".

In shot (Ha short) enless the emporor gets his rincely ass off his golden throun human kind is doomed.

Also all those say "Oh but the orcs would never unite so the imperium would win". please go to the form talking about "Could the orcs all unite?" Rather than this poste which is about "If the orcs unite". you kind of defiting the point of this being a hypithetical discusion.

Yes I am dyslesic no need to try and insult me by saying .Augustus:"Lern to spell noob." *stuk up lagh* *Geeky nazel snort*

at 1 ) wasnt disputed and is also not as relevant in fluff as is in game. CC doesnt win the galaxy.
at 2) again, numbers pulled out of thin air. I'm still waiting for a source of somehow exact numbers.
at 3) again, not really covered by GW. Creatures with high rates of repoduction tend to have high rates of casualtys too.
at 4) per fluff, orks are descendants of the krork and do not invent tech. They remember sometimes what they know, but cant
mass-produce it. So there is nothing "new" to find with orks. Only memories of the past.
at 5) forces based on looting fall easily apart when they find nothing for a time period. Single mek boys cant counter forgeworlds.
at 6) lack of strategy and discipline leads to beeing out-maneuvered and killed. Imperial firepower can deal with those masses.
at 7) the claim was orks would gather, and so it was counterd with bombing them where they stand.

But yes,the return of the emperor would ( and will ) change the balance of power in this galaxy.

Additionally, it wasnt the imperial side that was obsessed with unified orks. We still wait for an answer if and how orks could unite.

PS: no i didnt forget the only viable post explaining this. But a second, maybe different opinion would be welcome.

PPS: purge the xenos.

Orks are as skilled at space travel as the Imperium is, I don't know how people keep getting confused in that respect. They don't navigate into warp storms during a Waaagh, they would never be able to get out of one system.

However, the situation described by the OP was (with some further explaining) that the orks and the Imperium are left alone, but with no further unifying force for the orks. The title is somewhat misleading.

TheAlmightyPillock wrote:
Whtas with all you people saying that orcs are usless and they will ither be 'crushed by the mity imperium' or that they will only win by pur numbers.

1. Orcs a physicly superior to your standard human.
2.There are dozens of times more of them than humans and ALL of them c an fight (where we have children etc).
3.They repoduce at a rate that is many times faster than our own, so they will will replace their numbers faster than we can.
4.Thier technology may apear crude in many forms but yes it it is just as good as the imperioums if not better and it defanutly is advanceing. Orcs are by far better at telaporter technology for one, able to telaport whole arms to the surface where as the imperium can opnly do a few unis at a time. Thier ships apear crude but they are devistaiting, often many times bigger than impear ships. the shilde teck is also far superior to ours, so much so it is safe to wonder around the outside of the ship without sufacating.
5.Idont remember but someone said the dont have good echonemy or production facilitys? They dont need to thier planning on just nicking ours and making slaves out of those who foolishly surender. Also when the imperioum losses a ship it takes lifetimes to build a new one, the orcs jsut have to weld two imperiul ships back together and hay presto they can come kill you again.
6.Someone also said they have no order or disapline so they wouldn't be able to cordinate an attack. They dont need to, thiers jsut so dam many of them that all want a crack at us, all with one unified goal that they jsut need to zerg everything.
7.You cant jsut bomb them all from space becosue thier would be very few habital planits left. And takticly whoever said that shooting from space and just destroying all thier "Week" ships, please read some warhammer 40k fluff, imperiul ships are powerful but more valuable than people in the imperium, all the ships would run off and let billions die, so thier is gong to be a lot of fighting done on the ground. What is they have taken a Forge world what are are you going to do then? Just blow it all up "Sir all the orcs are now dead, however we are no longer going to be able to suply lasguns or tanks to the gardsmen." "Why?" "Well you blew them all up too." "How dare you question the empore Die Heratic!!".

1. Physical superiority means nothing when you are killed beyond arms length.
2. Sure, they have numbers over us, but when we can Exterminatus an ork-infested planet and not even bother fighting them, it does not matter.
3. Reproduction rate is irrelevent, Exterminatus ends all life on a planet.
4. Equipment production from orks mainly relies on stealing items from their opponents. Please reread the Fluff, Ork Technology does not advance, they were produced by the old ones to have a few specific boys that can repair, maintain, and rebuild the items that they already have. Their Teleportation technology is remnant of the old ones who implanted that knowledge in their collective memory. They cannot create ships of their own, they need to hack together remains of other ships. If there is just Imperium and Orks, then the Orks have a smaller pool of ships and equipment to loot, and would not be able to maintain any sort of armed space navy vs the Imperium.
5. Production facilities are a moot point when they are only producing ground warfare weapons. Extermatus will eliminate the need to fight any war on the ground.
6. The strategy of Zerging someone relies on a coordinated attack, Orks can pull off a coordinated attack. However, they would need to get past the Entire Imperial Space Navy before they can start to do what they do best. If they do get past the Imperial Navy, they just exterminatus the planet that the orks land on while they are there.
7. Please re-read the fluff regarding the number of planet in the Imperium... they can very well afford to Exterminatus every single planet with Orks on them. Losing a few Forge Worlds would not cripple the Imperium because they will not need them once the Orkish threat has been eliminated. They currently cannot throw away Forge Worlds because they are fighting wars on every conceiveable front.

Orks would win if they fought for the star trek universe ?

I see. Orks vs federation = 1:0

At least that would be something that wasn't already resolved on page 3 of the thread before this one.

That's why it's important that threads like this never die, you never know when some new bit of important information will come along.

Lord-Loss wrote:About that stuff that said Orks are crap and Guardman can beat them easily. Its Gak, Why?

Taken from Fugrim: "Whoever said the Greenskins were primitve obviously never had to fight them"

"It seems there was no star system throughout the Galaxy that had not been infested by the Greenskins"

" Greenskin warriors were monstious brutes whose strength was nearly equal of an Astartes warrior"

"There central nerve system was so primitive that they took a great deal of punishment before they lay down and stopped fighting"

"A greenskin warrior was not the equal of an Astartes by any means, but they had raw agression to make up for it, and they had numbers on there side"

"Astartes fired volley after volley into the enemy, but no matter how many fell, it only seemed to spur the survives into a frenzy"

This combined with these quoted from the Ork effectiveness thread.

Cheese Elemental wrote:No, Mekboyz really are better engineers than the Adeptus Mechanicus because they aren't afraid of new technology. Look at some of their stuff. A gun that can fire things through the Warp? A force field that covers more than one person? The Imperium, compared to the Orks, may seem superior in technology at a glance, but Orks are always going forwards. There's a lengthy bit of fluff in the Ork codex about the War of Dakka, in which a Warboss' Lootas and Flash Gitz took to looting Tau weapons and successfully using them (even making them shootier), and Meks were looting Tau vehicles and making them faster and tougher.

Cheese Elemental wrote:No, Mekboyz really are better engineers than the Adeptus Mechanicus because they aren't afraid of new technology. Look at some of their stuff. A gun that can fire things through the Warp? A force field that covers more than one person? The Imperium, compared to the Orks, may seem superior in technology at a glance, but Orks are always going forwards. There's a lengthy bit of fluff in the Ork codex about the War of Dakka, in which a Warboss' Lootas and Flash Gitz took to looting Tau weapons and successfully using them (even making them shootier), and Meks were looting Tau vehicles and making them faster and tougher.

1hadh wrote:numbers pulled out of thin air. I'm still waiting for a source of somehow exact numbers.

Page 1 of the Ork codex states something like "Orks are the most numerous of all the races"

Ork tek is advancing or is at least better, the older ork codexs had guns up the wazzu( taken out cuase the slowed the game), secondly orks do produce supplies they just need a slave base and a large war like we are talking about would provide that.
And the vibe I am getting from the fluff is that the longer the war the better the orks are at thier given role. Thats my opion(spelling).
Secondly ork tek works better if you ask me if a valve blows on a human ship the tech priest's go on a five min rant on how the machince spirt is pissed and they have to fix it, while on an ork ship it wouldnt matter.
Also you can exterminatius a planet but they are survivable, tryanids have done it and orks spores would just have to be deep enough to make it through the fire storm and start tarraforming the planet, for lack of a better way to explain it. Also the lack of a orginazed stucture is almost a advatage for the orks because if one warboss losses contact with the horde he still will fight forward, while a guard leader would either sit or try to carry out new order he made up causeing a break down of comunications.
also meks can learn they only have basic tec knowledge in thier genes, this is still a advatage on a human who has to grow before the learn anything, or the capability to learn.
finaly orks do have legit space travel they are in my opinion showing some smarts and taking human ships for themselves, it cuts out the time to make a new ship, they can really only loose a fleet if you whip it out completly and can hold you new turf.

^Yup^

I can't be the only one who remembers the days when I could field Heavy Plasma guns in Squads of Boyz, fit Multi-Meltas to buggies, and Ork dreadnoughts with Lascannons?

I do miss those days a bit, but I have to admit the new orky style, with 'big shootas' or 'kustom/mega blastas' is more fitting the Orks.

It is annoying though when people have a dig at Orks or Ork players due to the nature of the Orks. I mean it's not like they are the only 'simple' faction.

Orks - fight for fun, because they are 'hard wired for it'

Tyranids - are as simple as it gets, they're just a plague of Locusts in WH40K form

Chaos - fight for their own (or their God's) pleasure. Nurgle - inflicts disease for a giggle. Khorne - not much different from the Orks. Slaanesh - exists for pleasure and decadence. Tzeentch - plays games with mortals for fun.

The good guys always win.

wuestenfux wrote:The good guys always win.

Im sorry this isnt a 40k novel and its not written by Ben counter

Lord-Loss wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:The good guys always win.

Im sorry this isnt a 40k novel and its not written by Ben counter

This theme would be a job for.......



CS goto

Orks can't stand up to MULTILAZORS.

Okay, when Orks 'shed' I'm pretty sure that only a fraction of those grow to b e orks. Firstly, becuase most die or end up as gretchin, and secondly they aren't combat ready they moment the drop off an ork.

When people say that Orks are the most numerous race, I'm assuming that that's including gretchin and snotlings, yes?

Women and Children vs Snotlings and Gretchin?
Women and Children win.

Acctuley orks are combat ready the second the pop up and gretchin could easly take women and children the runt hearders would do it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Okay, when Orks 'shed' I'm pretty sure that only a fraction of those grow to b e orks. Firstly, becuase most die or end up as gretchin, and secondly they aren't combat ready they moment the drop off an ork.

When people say that Orks are the most numerous race, I'm assuming that that's including gretchin and snotlings, yes?

Women and Children vs Snotlings and Gretchin?
Women and Children win.

Orks are more numerous than Gretchin and Snotlings. When you think about it, more of the little 'uns would be used to maintain vehicles and stuff, so they'd only be very numerous in big clans or in Kults of Speed.

Grots would cut swathes through women and children, not to mention family pets. They're the ultimate weapon.

Well I don't doubt that Orks would be tough, but I just feel that after they took a world or two they would all start squabling over it killing each other giving the imperials time to get organized. Also orks don't seem to have to most efficient way of getting from planet to planet and especially are not effective at actually targeting significant planets. On the other hand I feel the imperium would have a big enough strategic advantage to overcome most tactical disadvantages they have.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Grots would cut swathes through women and children, not to mention family pets. They're the ultimate weapon.

My dog would fething own your Grots. Greyhound power for the win.

That wouldn't be a fair fight, how is a grot supposed to kill a bus? They're huge.

Orkeosaurus wrote:That wouldn't be a fair fight, how is a grot supposed to kill a bus? They're huge.

The same way a Guardsman kills an Emperor Titan.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:That wouldn't be a fair fight, how is a grot supposed to kill a bus? They're huge.

The same way a Guardsman kills an Emperor Titan.

Multi-lazors?


Seriouly though. Women and children wouldnt fight grots. Imagine a tiny green man with a gun walks in and grabs your mum by the hair shoots her in the head and then kills the entire family.

Grots have guns and average citizens dont (There isnt America in 40k)