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Post by: General Hobbs
Marc Schmelze won 3 Golden Daemons at Chicago Games Day and the real painter was Karol Rudyk.
If the latter ebays or takes commissions, he should be boycotted ( as it appears he was in on the scam).
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Post by: augustus5
Are the awards for "Best Painter" or "Best Painted"? If it is the latter then I can't see any wrongdoing in hiring someone to paint a beautiful army for you to show at tourneys.
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Post by: number9dream
I don't get how the real painter would benefit from this... why wouldn't she (forgive me if that's not a womens name, it seems the most similiar to Carol so...) just enter the models that won on her own?
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Post by: Belphegor
Have any info other than an accusation?
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Post by: Janthkin
Fairly serious to accuse people of such actions, without providing any support. Got anything to back that up, or is this just unsubstantiated web-rumor?
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Post by: pixelgeek
Dave Taylor's blog is the source of this.
Are the awards for "Best Painter" or "Best Painted"?
IIRC the rules state that the work has to be of the person entering it and not painted or converted by anyone else.
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Post by: phillosmaster
If Karol Rudyk's painting won a golden demon I think his work merits praise regardless of what Mark Schmelze did. I'm not sure why we would be penalizing Karol for this. Also Augustus5 is right. If they won best painted then they won best painted. I don't see why Karol being the artist instead of Marc makes any difference. Unless Marc entered the models without Karol's consent. Though your post seems to suggest they were a team.
So what exactly was the scam? I'm not understanding something here.
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Post by: pixelgeek
Janthkin wrote:Fairly serious to accuse people of such actions, without providing any support. Got anything to back that up, or is this just unsubstantiated web-rumor?
Link
http://davetaylorminiatures.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-oh-why-do-they-keep-on-trying.html
Not sure why the original poster didn't include some sort of source but I think Dave is probably reputable.
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Post by: phillosmaster
thanks pixelgeek, though I'm still not sure why Karol would:
1. Want to be in on it. Why not take the prize for himself.
2. Deserve any strife.
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Post by: BorderCountess
augustus5 wrote:Are the awards for "Best Painter" or "Best Painted"? If it is the latter then I can't see any wrongdoing in hiring someone to paint a beautiful army for you to show at tourneys.
Except they're not talking about a tournament, they're talking about a highly prestigious painting competition in our hobby; a competition whose rules rather clearly state that you can only enter your own work.
(Personally, I'm not a huge fan of paying someone else to paint your army for you, either; this is an all-around hobby, paint your own minis.)
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Post by: RogueMarket
joking about that comment below:
I'll just buy GMM's models and submit - cuz clearly you can right?!!
joking about that comment above.
Interesting.
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Post by: Cocaloch
I think I would hold off passing this rumor around till more substantial evidence is found.
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Post by: Clang
Could be just a bad case of "I'm too lazy to read the rules fine print" rather than deliberate fraud by either owner or painter, but the rules certainly disqualify such entries. If on the other hand the owner had lent the models back to the painter (I'm presuming these were painted on commission) and they were then entered by the painter, that would have been fine.
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Post by: Wayfarer
Edited becuase I just saw Karols cmon pages admitting the pieces were comissioned. Horrible.
Links to the entires: http://www.coolminiornot.com/220933 and http://www.coolminiornot.com/226038
He says they are commissions and then lists them as demon winning entires so the painter knows exactly what happened.
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Post by: LunaHound
Did the original painter do anything more than just sell the guy the painted minis?
Because there is a possibility that he was clueless thats how the buyer was going to use it ( GD ) and if the painter was penalized , its not fair.
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Post by: Flachzange
Well, updating the CMON status with said win and NOT informing GW that your work was used to win three demons without consent shouldnt go unpenalized if you ask me ....
Cant give the credit to your work and when someone calls shenanigans say you didnt know.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
I am still confused as to why the painter didn't just enter them? Are there rules on living in the area? Was it a great distance from where the painter lived and if so, couldn't the other guy represent 'Karol'?
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
Yeah If the painter didnt know his intentions I dont think the painter should be penalized however no matter what the person who entered the models knowing that he did not paint should be stripped of the awards. As people have stated already, its clearly in the rules that it MUST be your work...
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Post by: Chimera_Calvin
If true (I don't know so I will not make a judgement) the solution is simple:
1. Bump the 2nd, 3rd and 4th places in each winning category to 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
2. Demand the return of all trophies/prizes.
3. Ban the guy (Marc) from competing in Golden Daemon again.
Their are lots of analogies here, but its basically plagiarism - passing off someone else's work as your own for personal gain.
Assuming that what has been alleged is true, two things stand out - first, the real painter has nothing to gain from this. If he wants people to be aware his work is of Golden Daemon standard, he could just enter himself.
Second, the guy who entered the work was blatantly cheating. Arguing you didn't know you couldn't enter someone else's work (as has been suggested) does not wash, as no-one is dumb eneough not to be aware of rule as fundamental as that.
just my $0.02
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Post by: odmiller
In addition, the painter is himself a former GD winner (gold monster at UK in 06) so can't really claim ignorance, and the guy who entered did so with another piece from the same painter in Chicago a year ago. Since it was only an honorable mention, it flew under the radar.
I find it very hard to believe both parties did not know what they were doing.
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Post by: LunaHound
odmiller wrote:In addition, the painter is himself a former GD winner (gold monster at UK in 06) so can't really claim ignorance, and the guy who entered did so with another piece from the same painter in Chicago a year ago. Since it was only an honorable mention, it flew under the radar.
I find it very hard to believe both parties did not know what they were doing.
What if it was purchased as a commission , or simply purchased?
The original painter couldnt have guessed it would be registered in a GD?
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
Well the problem I see is what can they do now? How are they going to force him to give it back? Also, even though it appears the painter has taken part... what do you do to the painter? He odviously doesnt want to submit his own work anyways... I would hope they get them back, disqualify him and bann from further golden daemons then give them to the right people.
@Luna, thats what I was thinking. But if hes entered models painted by the same person before, I would assume the painter would have known from the start if not deffinintelly the second time around
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Post by: skrulnik
LunaHound wrote:odmiller wrote:In addition, the painter is himself a former GD winner (gold monster at UK in 06) so can't really claim ignorance, and the guy who entered did so with another piece from the same painter in Chicago a year ago. Since it was only an honorable mention, it flew under the radar.
I find it very hard to believe both parties did not know what they were doing.
What if it was purchased as a commission , or simply purchased?
The original painter couldnt have guessed it would be registered in a GD?
Luna, read the comments on Dave T's blog.
the Marc guy has done this before with commisions from this artist.
Also, if the artist didn't know, why are the CMON entries saying they are GD winners?
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Post by: LunaHound
skrulnik wrote:
Luna, read the comments on Dave T's blog.
the Marc guy has done this before with commisions from this artist.
Also, if the artist didn't know, why are the CMON entries saying they are GD winners?
Hmm , after some thoughts ... Im sure the painter is familiar with the rules.
Maybe there are more to this story.... i'll judge after hearing what the painter says xD
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Post by: Wayfarer
And to all you saying IF look at the links in my last post.
It's the painters cmon posts clearly proving he wasn't ignorant of anything.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Same stunt with same protagonists hapened in 2008 but just got honorable mention.
If you know how coolmini or not works theres not much room for doubt that the painter was totally aware that his entries were entered at the GD and won... since he took the credits on himself.
The client lied in the application since he entered the work as his own.
(GD US rules dont allow that for those that are not aware of these things)
Both do need a miracle to get off clean from this situation.
GW is taking actions ( at least is what was said at CMON forums) so I'm curious to know the full truth about this.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Well if the commission was bought and entered without the painters knowledge it simply wouldn't be anything to do with them. But the sell a model to someone who enters it under their own name and then put up pictures under your name with the "gold medal" honour attached, it would seem that they find it permissable.
It's a bit odd really, letting someone else enter your work under their own name, and it's been done several times so it seems they are happy with this. So it wouldn't appear that the painter was suprised by their commission being entered and have merely shrugged it off and put up their pictures and mentioned the medal, but are happy to accept this arrangement. Odd.
Some years ago there was a bit of a fuss with models being painted in Russia and entered in various European competitions (like Euro Militaire) and winning many prizes. But it was revealed that they were being painted by several people who specialised in different things, like horses, faces, armour etc. And then were being sent over and entered under one person's name (you're supposed to declare all names in a join effort) to sweep up the prizes. People weren't amused from what I recall.
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Post by: Flachzange
MeanGreenStompa wrote:I am still confused as to why the painter didn't just enter them? Are there rules on living in the area? Was it a great distance from where the painter lived and if so, couldn't the other guy represent 'Karol'?
No. The rules state that you CAN NOT represent someone else. Either you're there and claim a demon, or you are not and can't enter.
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Post by: Khornholio
Where's my bag of Rotten Tomatoes?!
The guy who entered - epic biblical F- fail. The artist, although very talented, has completely shafted himself from any GD in the world for quite awhile.
This happens quite a bit at tourneys with great prizes; some wiener buys a beautiful army, promotes it as their own work and then walks away with cash and prizes. I remember a Brettonian army floating around Western Canada a few years back with some puke talking about how he painted it while every word out of his mouth was a dirty lie.
These people sully the hobby and 'sportsmanship'. Total disgrace.
9 thumbs down.
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
People are starting to rate his models with 1's on CMON (and I can't blame them)
Pretty weak if true.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Why didn't he just enter himself? Why'd he need a proxy?
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Post by: Flachzange
Thats what Id like to know. The whole "didnt know he would" doesnt really fly, since its been done in the past.
The work is excellent no doubt, but this whole business just makes him look bad.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Very strange situation, what the hell was the artist thinking?
I cannot think of a single reason they would think this is a good idea... besides being dumb, which is an official excuse but it don't help much. 
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I'm sure that the competition would allow someone to enter something you did under your own name, with them just delivering it and accepting the award on your behalf... but this is weird.
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Post by: Fishboy
Nope...must be present to win.
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Post by: OldPeculiar
Presumably the 'must be present' rule is there to discourage people from entering minis in GD's all over the world. I could quite easily see a couple of painters dominating the painting awards if they were able to post their minis off round the globe
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Post by: mikhaila
Wrexasaur wrote:Very strange situation, what the hell was the artist thinking?
I cannot think of a single reason they would think this is a good idea... besides being dumb, which is an official excuse but it don't help much.
Money. Always follow the money.
The guy painting likes money. The guy buying the miniatures has it. The guy buying the miniatures wants to have his name up as a GD winner, and doesn't mind paying for it.
The 'artist' is selling his stuff for a lot of cash. Reguardless of his lack of morals, he gets lots of advertising from the stunt. More commissions. More money.
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Post by: Oshova
Admittedly I've gone to tournaments with armies were bits and pieces have been painted by my dad showing me different techniques (30 years of experience compared to my 10 lol), but 98/99% of my armies are painted by me, so that 1 or 2% isn't going to make any difference . . . but if I was to enter a pure painting competition I would always use models fully painted by myself, as that is just honest and sensible. I don't care about winning, cos people give you tips on how to improve and stuff and that's what it's all about for me, just improving in yourself =]
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
mikhaila wrote:Wrexasaur wrote:Very strange situation, what the hell was the artist thinking?
I cannot think of a single reason they would think this is a good idea... besides being dumb, which is an official excuse but it don't help much.
Money. Always follow the money.
The guy painting likes money. The guy buying the miniatures has it. The guy buying the miniatures wants to have his name up as a GD winner, and doesn't mind paying for it.
The 'artist' is selling his stuff for a lot of cash. Reguardless of his lack of morals, he gets lots of advertising from the stunt. More commissions. More money.
Wouldn't he do just as well to enter them himself and get *his* name up in magazines? Then as well as advertising his services he could now sell the same models with the added label "golden demon winner", likely to make them even more valuable. Seems a way to undersell your work to sell GD winning material before you've actually won something.
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Post by: oni
I'm just using the above as a hypothetical example...
"armies were bits and pieces have been painted by my dad showing me different techniques, but 98/99% of my armies are painted by me, so that 1 or 2% isn't going to make any difference"
In the Golden Daemon competition you would be disqualified. Absolutely every aspect of every last little bit needs to be your own work. It's all inclusive, no exceptions; painting, conversions, sculpting... anything and everything. If someone even has a question to this, then you're answer is an immediate, "You're not eligible!" The entry rules for Golden Daemon clearly state this.
On Topic:
The whole situation is appalling, shameful, disgraceful... pick whatever word you'd like.
GW is right in having it so that artists need to be present, NOT merely "represented". If artists were allowed to be "represented" then we'd end up seeing the same winners over and over world wide.
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Post by: Mastiff
The rules have been clarified over the years, because this isn't the first time it's happened. You cannot enter someone else's work. Period. End of story. The rules are very clear.
About six years ago a US painter bought a unique heavily-converted chaos demon on Ebay, painted up the demon and went on to win the slayer Sword. It created a lot of bad feelings in the painting community, since it was a dishonest representation of the work.
Why can't artists send their work to a GD if they can't make it to the event? Simple; not all GDs are equal. The competition at the Baltimore GD is arguably the fiercest, with a hell of a lot of talented painters wanting to compete in the original US GD. The other GDs aren't far behind, but there was debate about the fairness of competitors sending their work to different GDs (particularly the newest ones) where they could benefit from a "weaker" (ie. less-experienced) competitive field.
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Post by: Oshova
I understand you using my post as an example, and you make a good point, but this is why I don't enter my armies into painting competitions, only gaming tourneys where I know it will have no effect due to the way the painting scores is done.
But on topic . . . I was wondering about the above post, and could both people enter the model as a joint effort (modeller and painter) or is this not allowed? And about the OP, the seller is a fool for selling his work, and the buyer is the kind of person that makes me hate people with too much money, they feel they have the power to get whatever they want . . . GRR! Bring the might of the Emperor down on him! =p
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Post by: Fishboy
A similar thing happened in the second Atlanta GD. Somone bought several different models from ebay, only got honorable mentions for 2 and won a silver for one of them. When the pics were posted the guy in Europe that painted them called foul and let everyone know those were his. Word got back and the guy that did it was pretty much black balled from anything locally GW and banned from GW all together. Dont know if the Ban at GW has any consistency but I do know the guy has not shown his head in the local area for some time. So not only is it up to GW to punish those, we need to make sure people understand that as a hobby group we wont stand for it either. Not sure at this point if this painter had anything to do with this as it is possible he did not know the rules of the competition however the guy entering them had to have known.
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Post by: Timmah
I don't understand why you need to be present to win. Shouldn't the GD award be about finding the best painted mini? Not the best painted mini of someone willing to travel to a competition.
I actually wouldn't be suprised if a lot of minatures are passed off as others work because the original painter doesn't want to/can't travel to someplace.
Seems like a stupid rule to me that someone can't enter your models for you at an event like this.
If you really wanted to limit entries, make it regional. Each region has one GD event they can attend/send a model to.
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Post by: skrulnik
Timmah wrote:I don't understand why you need to be present to win. Shouldn't the GD award be about finding the best painted mini? Not the best painted mini of someone willing to travel to a competition.
I actually wouldn't be suprised if a lot of minatures are passed off as others work because the original painter doesn't want to/can't travel to someplace.
Seems like a stupid rule to me that someone can't enter your models for you at an event like this.
If you really wanted to limit entries, make it regional. Each region has one GD event they can attend/send a model to.
My feeling is that the rule is there to encourage people who are local to an event to enter.
If I knew that anyone worldwide could enter, I wouldn't. Because I know that there are better painters out there.
At least if people have to show up in person I may have a chance.
It is no different to the tournaments. You have to show up to win.
And because of that requirement, you do see some of the same names regularly at all the tournaments.
Why should a painter be able to have someone else represent him?
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Post by: NAVARRO
Limiting entries to the people that attend to the event seems a lot more acceptable than limiting the rest of the world just because its X Km away from your region... Besides what would happen to tha contries like myself that dont have GD's?
If you use common sense the requirement of the autor is essencial to have a balanced event... just imagine a polish guy has a budy in the US and he accepts to enter all polish runner ups entries... you would have impractical huge numbers of entries and GD's probably would take weeks to resolve.
So I dont see it as a stupid rule.
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Post by: littleboyblues
What the person who entered did was disrespectful to painters everywhere, good painters, bad painters and hell even kids with hot glue guns. A fundamental rule of any competition is YOU ARE THE ONE COMPETEING. The artist I would not hold any grudge against at all if they had cried foul as soon as they had found out. I feel they should both be banned.
@ Timmah : Can a swim competitor just record his laps at the local pool and send in the results or times to the Olympics and see if they won? It would be very uninteresting at the event for the organizers to stand in front of a crowd and say john from Antarctica won first in 3 different events but the FedEx guy has to accept the awards for him and ship it back to him along with the winning models. You have to show up to a competition to compete! (That’s why there is a couple GD's around the world)
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Post by: nieto666
Its simple really, its called cheating and is a disgrace to our hobby. See i know i cant paint so i pay others, some of the time, to paint my armies to table top standard. Id never think of entering them into a GD because its not my work. If I want to win something i want to do it on my own so the reward is all mine. I guess some people are just shallow and have to win no matter what to make themselves feel better about life. In the end the guy should be banned from entering any other GD. I dont think you can make him give the trophies back but 4-6th place must be raiseing kain about this, know i would. GW should listen to our valid complaints and not picture his minis in WD and do a article discrediting him. "CHEATERS" never prosper in the end!!
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Post by: oni
Oshova wrote:But on topic . . . I was wondering about the above post, and could both people enter the model as a joint effort (modeller and painter) or is this not allowed? And about the OP, the seller is a fool for selling his work, and the buyer is the kind of person that makes me hate people with too much money, they feel they have the power to get whatever they want . . . GRR! Bring the might of the Emperor down on him! =p
It's not allowed.
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Post by: Cane
Yeesh that faux Golden Daemon winner makes us Americans look terribad.
Has there been any other Golden Daemon cheaters that were had?
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Post by: NAVARRO
In some european GD's its allowed though.
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Post by: Timmah
littleboyblues wrote:
@ Timmah : Can a swim competitor just record his laps at the local pool and send in the results or times to the Olympics and see if they won? It would be very uninteresting at the event for the organizers to stand in front of a crowd and say john from Antarctica won first in 3 different events but the FedEx guy has to accept the awards for him and ship it back to him along with the winning models. You have to show up to a competition to compete! (That’s why there is a couple GD's around the world)
In this case and the case of the guy playing in the tournament. Those people are going to be different the day of the competition. The competition is the event.
Sorry but its a completely different type of event.
With GD events the work is all done before hand. Its not like a model looks better depending on who entered it.
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Post by: RogueMarket
Ok - thinking about it logically -
Why didn't the original artist come to GD?
He probably the doesnt live in America.
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Post by: littleboyblues
He doesn't. I'm pretty sure their from somewhere in Europe. (which has GD's)
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Post by: BrookM
Aya, GD's in Europe are usually ruled by "foreign" painters. WD often remarks on how Spanish prepare for GD UK and visa versa.
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Post by: carmachu
Manfred von Drakken wrote:augustus5 wrote:
(Personally, I'm not a huge fan of paying someone else to paint your army for you, either; this is an all-around hobby, paint your own minis.)
For tournments with painting scores, sure. Its only fair.
Otherwise, its just your elitest garbage opinion on the hobby. If you like painting, more power to you. Otherwise, just enjoy the parts you like.
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Post by: Daggermaw
What is the prize for winning the Golden Demon?
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Post by: Frazzled
A year's supply of cheetoes?
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Post by: BrookM
The Slayer Sword.
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Post by: Daggermaw
That's it? No money? No models?
Who cares?
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Post by: Frazzled
Daggermaw wrote:That's it? No money? No models?
Who cares?
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Post by: tealzooka
Easy, stop giving more than a trophy to the winner. Keep a list of official winners of GD on GW website or on approved fan site. If someone is caught cheating like this the remove them.
To be honest, I buy minis from other people because I suck at modeling and painting. I would no way enter painting competition stating I did the work. I would enter it into a competition stating who the artist was. I know it not allowed at GD but I have been to a couple of gaming conventions that have allowed things like that.
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Post by: Ozymandias
What's the prize for winning an olympic gold? You get a shiny medal. It's still not ok to cheat.
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Post by: BrookM
It is about honour. If that is beyond you don't compete.
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
Daggermaw wrote:That's it? No money? No models?
Who cares?
Well lets see. Other people who entered models actually painted there own and spent countless hours doing so probably care? Some other ard tard just bought a model and won over them for doing NOTHING... Id be pissed
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Post by: Mastiff
Daggermaw wrote:That's it? No money? No models?
Who cares?
I care.
I spent months painting and modeling an entry, took an overnight bus from Montreal to Toronto to enter a GD, and spent a nervewracking eight hours while the judges pared down the entries. I would have been mighty pissed to lose to someone who couldn't be bothered to even show up.
And trust me, having Gav Thorp hand me a 4 foot long sword and say "careful mate, it's sharp" is a highlight in my otherwise drab and dreary life.
Collaberations are BS. One person needs to do all of the work. It's an artistic compettion, so keep the rules lawyerin' out of it.  The guy who bought the demon conversion on ebay claimed it was legit because it's a "painting" competition, rather than a "conversion and painting" competition, but that's jackassery of the highest order. Judges look at the whole piece, they don't discount the modelling aspect.
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Post by: Frazzled
Ozymandias wrote:What's the prize for winning an olympic gold? You get a shiny medal. It's still not ok to cheat.
Other than the the millions in endorsements, and the subsidies they get while training right? EDIT: I should note I'm just being a butt. I understand the annoyance at the submitter (not the painter-this is business and the win is an advertisement, I'd post it too on my website). I'll spring US$1.5 for the "TAR THE CENSORED " tar fund. (wow bast&rd is not autofiltered)
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Post by: NAVARRO
If you want to know whats in it for the painter just money wise, just look how much the painters with demons on their belts charge for their commissions... But to me these kind of competitions are much more about measuring your achievements agains other talented people and that cant be measured in coins.
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Post by: Vengis
Timmah wrote:I don't understand why you need to be present to win. Shouldn't the GD award be about finding the best painted mini? Not the best painted mini of someone willing to travel to a competition.
I actually wouldn't be suprised if a lot of minatures are passed off as others work because the original painter doesn't want to/can't travel to someplace.
Seems like a stupid rule to me that someone can't enter your models for you at an event like this.
The point of the GD is to find who the best painter of that specific competition is. Not some guy over in France. If everyone could send minis to any competition from anywhere, there'd be a few guys in Europe winning every GD. If I knew I'd be competing against some of the European painters (guys that do nothing but paint for a living)in every GD, I'd never bother to enter.
Timmah wrote:If you really wanted to limit entries, make it regional. Each region has one GD event they can attend/send a model to.
What would this accomplish that the current GD rules don't? All it would do is stagnate the competition.
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Post by: Mastiff
Frazzled wrote:Ozymandias wrote:What's the prize for winning an olympic gold? You get a shiny medal. It's still not ok to cheat.
Other than the the millions in endorsements, and the subsidies they get while training right?
EDIT: I should note I'm just being a butt. I understand the annoyance at the submitter (not the painter-this is business and the win is an advertisement, I'd post it too on my website). I'll spring US$1.5 for the "TAR THE CENSORED " tar fund. (wow bast&rd is not autofiltered)
lol. Not every Olympic winner is Michael Phelps.
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Post by: Cocaloch
I still say people should withhold judgement till more information comes out.
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Post by: Polonius
Was this a creative collaberation or merely a logistical one? If two people worked together to paint it, then that's shadier, although I think that happens a lot, esp with things like conversions. If it's just logistics (I paint it, you take it in), than it's a violation of a rule, but if it's still the best model there, it still deserves to win.
In the olympics, there's cheating in the sense of taking steroids, and there is cheating in the sense of having some immigration paperwork not completely filed. yes, they're both rules, but one directly addresses the purity of competition while the other is simply administrative.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Frazzled wrote: (wow bast&rd is not autofiltered)
Probably because it's not actually a curse word.
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Post by: LunaHound
So the painter won the Europe GDs , dont want to fly to USA , so sold it to a US participant and proceeds to win US GD?
Wow this painter have real skills , any website?
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Post by: Polonius
When I took estates and trusts we had to look up cases on illegitimate kids and they're ability to inherit. The category they were in was called "Non-Marital Children [Formerly Bastards]"
I want to start a rock band call Formally Bastards.
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Post by: Vengis
I just noticed this comment by Karol on her cmon page
I did not agree put it on golden daemon for marc.He used your name but Without my knowledge.People who descend my rating are not fair for me.Probable a lot of these people are bad painter.
Classy.
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Post by: Timmah
Can you submit entries that 2 people worked on as long as one is there?
In which case 1 person could do all the work and the other could paint something a black line (or something) on the bottom of the base.
Problem with entering events you can't attend solved.
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Post by: nieto666
Cocaloch wrote:I still say people should withhold judgement till more information comes out.
Come on dude get real!! They knew what they were doing!! Backtrack through the post and you can read it for yourself, there are links. There is no misunderstanding.........cheating is cheating however you go about it.
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Post by: Vengis
Timmah wrote:Can you submit entries that 2 people worked on as long as one is there?
In which case 1 person could do all the work and the other could paint something a black line (or something) on the bottom of the base.
Problem with entering events you can't attend solved.
Can you read the thread? People have posted the rules a few times now: One person paints and enters a model.
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Post by: Timmah
Vengis wrote:Timmah wrote:Can you submit entries that 2 people worked on as long as one is there?
In which case 1 person could do all the work and the other could paint something a black line (or something) on the bottom of the base.
Problem with entering events you can't attend solved.
Can you read the thread? People have posted the rules a few times now: One person paints and enters a model.
Nope, I am like most other posters here, I read 1 post and then quickly write stuff.
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Post by: Cocaloch
Oh wait I forgot this is the INTRAWEBS one peice of "evidence" which can easily be misinterpreted is enough to damn anyone.
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Post by: Cocaloch
Oh wait I forgot this is the INTRAWEBS one peice of "evidence" which can easily be misinterpreted is enough to damn anyone.
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Post by: BrookM
Please refrain from refreshing so quickly.
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Post by: phillosmaster
A post so nice cocaloch had to say it thrice.
I agree that this was cheating after reading the contest rules, but I haven't seen anything in the source that says Karol was in on it. Karol sold a GD winning painted mini. If I was a GD winner I would sell my work for commision as well. Karol has no control over the customer's actions. Seems pretty legit on Karol's end as far as I can tell.
Innocent until proven guilty.
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Post by: odmiller
phillosmaster wrote:A post so nice cocaloch had to say it thrice.
I agree that this was cheating after reading the contest rules, but I haven't seen anything in the source that says Karol was in on it. Karol sold a GD winning painted mini. If I was a GD winner I would sell my work for commision as well. Karol has no control over the customer's actions. Seems pretty legit on Karol's end as far as I can tell.
Innocent until proven guilty.
Karol also sold a piece to the same customer, who entered it in the same competition under his name last year. It "only" got Honorable Mention so flew under the radar.
I guess Karol didn't know that happened? The customer didn't tell him? He sure knew the results immediately this year.
Seems to me it's easier to claim ignorance of the customer's intentions the first time it happens.
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Post by: phillosmaster
My point is that it's acceptable to paint for commission. Does anyone have any evidence to condemn Karol for any reason? I'd hate to see someone's reputation unjustly tainted (though it's probably too late for that).
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Post by: Flachzange
odmiller wrote:phillosmaster wrote:A post so nice cocaloch had to say it thrice.
I agree that this was cheating after reading the contest rules, but I haven't seen anything in the source that says Karol was in on it. Karol sold a GD winning painted mini. If I was a GD winner I would sell my work for commision as well. Karol has no control over the customer's actions. Seems pretty legit on Karol's end as far as I can tell.
Innocent until proven guilty.
Karol also sold a piece to the same customer, who entered it in the same competition under his name last year. It "only" got Honorable Mention so flew under the radar.
I guess Karol didn't know that happened? The customer didn't tell him? He sure knew the results immediately this year.
Seems to me it's easier to claim ignorance of the customer's intentions the first time it happens.
Exactly. It remains shady, whichever way you turn it.
And since the painter did participate at one of the past GD´s, Im sure he knew the rules. So not coming forward BUT updating cmon with the newly won demons just sux.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Vengis wrote:I just noticed this comment by Karol on her cmon page
I did not agree put it on golden daemon for marc.He used your name but Without my knowledge.People who descend my rating are not fair for me.Probable a lot of these people are bad painter.
Classy.
If I sold a model which was later entered under someone else's name, I'd inform the organisers. I wouldn't let it lie and put my pictures of it online and say "golden demon winner". It just doesn't ring true, not when it's been done several times.
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Post by: Frazzled
Ok seriously why would the painter give a damn? Its excellent advertising and they are selling works to buyers. They don't care about your steenking tournament just their steenking greenbacks.
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Post by: TBD
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/250770.page
Picture #5 has the Golden Demon winner's name missing for 1994.
Does anyone know why? Similar case of cheating or something else?
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Post by: Frazzled
Wel if you look closely you can see a small icon. what is that OMG! ITS A DECEPTICON! RUN!
Sorry couldn't help it.
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Post by: Clang
IF Karol really and truly didn't know beforehand that the model was entered into GD (as he/she claims) then I don't think Karol has done anything wrong (other than perhaps not alerting the GD authorities loudly enough) - if I was a professional painter, why shouldn't I be proud of a GD win by a model I've painted? (and also want to point out that it was MY painting that won, not the owner's) The fact that the current owner had no right to enter the model according to the GD rules is another issue entirely and (hopefully) nothing to do with Karol. I'd hate to see Karol's paiting career suffer IF he/she isn't to blame at all.
Sadly, we may never know the full truth, as only the owner and painter know the full details and probably nothing is provable.
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Post by: Frazzled
Karol woldn't have done anything wrong regardless. Its not illegal. he/she/it was just selling goods to a buyer.
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Post by: LunaHound
Frazzled wrote:Karol woldn't have done anything wrong regardless. Its not illegal. he/she/it was just selling goods to a buyer.
Yes thats what i think too , but people claimed that the painter have to know about it based on how fast coolmini site was updated.
But seriously it makes no sense why someone that can SO EASILY win GD will jeopardize their future GD for someone else?
thats why i said there must be more real reasons hmm!
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Post by: Neconilis
Frazzled wrote:Ok seriously why would the painter give a damn? Its excellent advertising and they are selling works to buyers. They don't care about your steenking tournament just their steenking greenbacks.
Pretty sure he's in Europe somewhere so he cares about the Monopoly money. Monopoly money worth far, far more than our wonderful green money... You know, I think they're onto something with the non-green money now that I think about it. Colors really seem to kick up the value.
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Post by: LTgland
I found this
http://demonwinner.free.fr/uk/1994/
look at how crap the models are compared to now
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Post by: BrookM
Hrm, Neil also won in '96
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Post by: TBD
Thanks!
So there was a winner (instead of maybe there not being a GD that year or whatever).
Weird that his name is not on the plaque(?) at Warhammer World. DQ doesn't seem likely either since they could have put the runner up's name on it, and he competed again later.
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Post by: LTgland
TBD wrote:Thanks!
So there was a winner (instead of maybe there not being a GD that year or whatever).
Weird that his name is not on the plaque(?) at Warhammer World. Maybe he got DQed afterwards?
he picked up something the year before, and heaps in the years after, so I doubt it.
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Post by: TBD
LTgland wrote:TBD wrote:Thanks!
So there was a winner (instead of maybe there not being a GD that year or whatever).
Weird that his name is not on the plaque(?) at Warhammer World. Maybe he got DQed afterwards?
he picked up something the year before, and heaps in the years after, so I doubt it.
Yeah, I figured that out after I posted.
I'm still intrigued by it
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Post by: BrookM
Remember, these are just the Slayer Sword winners.
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Post by: CT GAMER
Interesting how people that took such a holier than thou/Black and white moralistic stance on recasting in another thread are going out of their way to make excuses for an accomplice in fraud in this case...
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Post by: LunaHound
CT GAMER wrote:Interesting how people that took such a holier than thou/Black and white moralistic stance on recasting in another thread are going out of their way to make excuses for an accomplice in fraud in this case...
No , its natural to want to hear both side of a story first.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
CT GAMER wrote:Interesting how people that took such a holier than thou/Black and white moralistic stance on recasting in another thread are going out of their way to make excuses for an accomplice in fraud in this case...
Quite so. Not me, though. I hope they both burn for it.
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
It would indeed be very nice to hear the full story first before accusing people. Although without a doubt the person who bought and entered them should have penalties. Hes done it before apparently and its a pretty odvious rule to follow... It would still be nice to know the full story though.
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Post by: phillosmaster
I just want to make sure this doesn't become a witch hunt. Though if it does become a witch hunt someone give me a heads up so I can jump into my penitent engine
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Post by: Ozymandias
Frazzled wrote:Ozymandias wrote:What's the prize for winning an olympic gold? You get a shiny medal. It's still not ok to cheat.
Other than the the millions in endorsements, and the subsidies they get while training right?
EDIT: I should note I'm just being a butt. I understand the annoyance at the submitter (not the painter-this is business and the win is an advertisement, I'd post it too on my website). I'll spring US$1.5 for the "TAR THE CENSORED " tar fund. (wow bast&rd is not autofiltered)
I'm sure the curling team is looking at millions in endorsements.
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Post by: Frazzled
Ozymandias wrote:Frazzled wrote:Ozymandias wrote:What's the prize for winning an olympic gold? You get a shiny medal. It's still not ok to cheat.
Other than the the millions in endorsements, and the subsidies they get while training right?
EDIT: I should note I'm just being a butt. I understand the annoyance at the submitter (not the painter-this is business and the win is an advertisement, I'd post it too on my website). I'll spring US$1.5 for the "TAR THE CENSORED " tar fund. (wow bast&rd is not autofiltered)
I'm sure the curling team is looking at millions in endorsements.
Just beer. Lots of beer...
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Post by: Neconilis
CT GAMER wrote:Interesting how people that took such a holier than thou/Black and white moralistic stance on recasting in another thread are going out of their way to make excuses for an accomplice in fraud in this case...
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Post by: BrookM
Both are guilty, off with their heads. 
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
BrookM wrote:Both are guilty, off with their heads.
I'm all for indiscriminate justice.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Frazzled wrote:(wow bast&rd is not autofiltered)
Because 'bastard' isn't any more a swear word than 'bloody' or 'damn'.
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Post by: BrookM
Aya, bastard is a title first and foremost.
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Post by: Khornholio
Mastiff wrote:
Why can't artists send their work to a GD if they can't make it to the event? Simple; not all GDs are equal. The competition at the Baltimore GD is arguably the fiercest, with a hell of a lot of talented painters wanting to compete in the original US GD. The other GDs aren't far behind, but there was debate about the fairness of competitors sending their work to different GDs (particularly the newest ones) where they could benefit from a "weaker" (ie. less-experienced) competitive field.
The competitive attitude amongst the entrants at the Baltimore GD might be the fiercest, but having seen the winners that come out of Western Europe, particularly France, Spain and Itlay, I'd have to say the fiercest competition skill-wise comes from that area of the world.
It seems like everyone is disgusted with these guys and their shenanigans. Time for some Orky justice. Let's git 'em! WAAAGGGHHH!
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Post by: BrookM
Different parts of the world favour different painting techniques.
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Post by: Redbeard
CT GAMER wrote:
Interesting how people that took such a holier than thou/Black and white moralistic stance on recasting in another thread are going out of their way to make excuses for an accomplice in fraud in this case...
Wow, nice dig.
First, I'll be real clear, right upfront, and say that this is disgraceful behaviour, and both parties should be banned from entering further competitions if these accusations are proved.
However, on the comparison with recasting, one is a competition, and one is illegal activity.
Barry Bonds was a baseball cheat. He gets an asterisk on his records. Pete Rose was a baseball cheat, he got banned from the hall of fame. This is what happens to people who cheat in competitions - they get black marks next to their name. Michael Vick broke the law - he spent time in jail. OJ Simpson broke the law - he's in prison. Plaxico Burress broke the law - he's headed to prison. This is what happens to people who break the law.
It is important to remember the difference between the laws of your country, and the rules of an event you enter. Breaking either is wrong. One is considerably more so.
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Post by: Mastiff
Khornholio wrote:Mastiff wrote:
Why can't artists send their work to a GD if they can't make it to the event? Simple; not all GDs are equal. The competition at the Baltimore GD is arguably the fiercest, with a hell of a lot of talented painters wanting to compete in the original US GD. The other GDs aren't far behind, but there was debate about the fairness of competitors sending their work to different GDs (particularly the newest ones) where they could benefit from a "weaker" (ie. less-experienced) competitive field.
The competitive attitude amongst the entrants at the Baltimore GD might be the fiercest, but having seen the winners that come out of Western Europe, particularly France, Spain and Itlay, I'd have to say the fiercest competition skill-wise comes from that area of the world.
It seems like everyone is disgusted with these guys and their shenanigans. Time for some Orky justice. Let's git 'em! WAAAGGGHHH!
Doh! 
Thanks for catching that. I should have specified I was talking about the North American GDs. The European GDs are all extremely competitive from what I've seen and heard. IMHO, France is the uber, and the europeans are the trendsetters when it comes to creative pallettes and lighting effects.
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Post by: CT GAMER
Redbeard wrote:CT GAMER wrote:
Interesting how people that took such a holier than thou/Black and white moralistic stance on recasting in another thread are going out of their way to make excuses for an accomplice in fraud in this case...
Wow, nice dig.
Just pointing out an interesting observation...
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Post by: Mastiff
Khornholio wrote:Mastiff wrote:
Why can't artists send their work to a GD if they can't make it to the event? Simple; not all GDs are equal. The competition at the Baltimore GD is arguably the fiercest, with a hell of a lot of talented painters wanting to compete in the original US GD. The other GDs aren't far behind, but there was debate about the fairness of competitors sending their work to different GDs (particularly the newest ones) where they could benefit from a "weaker" (ie. less-experienced) competitive field.
The competitive attitude amongst the entrants at the Baltimore GD might be the fiercest, but having seen the winners that come out of Western Europe, particularly France, Spain and Itlay, I'd have to say the fiercest competition skill-wise comes from that area of the world.
It seems like everyone is disgusted with these guys and their shenanigans. Time for some Orky justice. Let's git 'em! WAAAGGGHHH!
Doh!
Thanks for catching that. I should have specified I was talking about the North American GDs. I've talked to painters who debated which GDs to go to based on who they knew was competing.
And you're right , the European GDs are the most competitive from what I've seen and heard. IMHO, France is the oober, and the europeans are the trendsetters when it comes to creative pallettes and lighting effects. I'd give my left nut to visit any of the euopean GDs.
Hell, take 'em both, it'd be worth it.
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Post by: Fishboy
To me there is no real grey area here. This was blatant and wrong. Although proving the painters involvement will be hard without a confession she/he apparently knew afterwards and did nothing to rectify the situation. Now the painter is upset  As far as the casting thing goes I am very very very much against it and think you should be thrown in jail.....unless you have some casts of combi melta's. I need a few of those so that should not be illegal hehe 
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Post by: littleboyblues
BrookM wrote:Different parts of the world favour different painting techniques.
And France just fancies the "better" technique
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Post by: Shaman
lol at the QQ in this thread... painting toys is serious business.
The truth is out, we know who really painted em(looks crap to me dont like the style)
This is like coming second in the hundred meters then complaining that the guy that won didnt have a number on his shorts.. Therefore he shouldn't win..
Hooray for victory by technicality.
The winners name should just be changed to real painter name.
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Post by: Fishboy
Actually its more like me saying that lance armstrong was riding the bike for me but I stood on the podium to take all the prizes then said I was riding the bike.
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Post by: brettz123
Well I don't think anyone wants to win by a technicality..... but cheating isn't a technicality. And I think Fishboy made a pretty good analogy.
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
I wouldnt especially call this a technicality win. Nrmaly if someone felt bad and dropped out for me, Iwouldnt feel like deserved it. This guy cheated. So the runners up, DO deserve it.
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Post by: dienekes96
Why would anyone want the reward and not the talent? I've never understood. What good is winning a medal if you haven't earned it. I understand greed (in terms of winning prizes), but there is no prize (except for the Slayer Sword) in the Demons. So what is a the point of a trophy celebrating skill you DON'T possess.
As an example, I am not jealous of Mastiff's Slayer Sword, but rather his ridiculous skill at painting. I simply don't grasp the motivation beyond low self-esteem. In which case winning an trophy for painting a sci-fi soldier doesn't really scratch the itch.
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Post by: smart_alex
I Didn't read the entire post but that link only leads to another accusation. If you enter somthing you did not paint yourself that is pretty much fraud wether or not you paid someone.
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Post by: Linkdead
It's clear as day against the rules. Only on Dakka could people argue over such an obvious rules violation.
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Post by: Vengis
Another thing that pisses me off about this is, because this entry made the first cut, someone else's entry that would have otherwise made it, didn't.
I know I would be mad as hell to find out I didn't make the first cut because a cheating entry crowded me out.
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Post by: Khornholio
Vengis wrote:Another thing that pisses me off about this is, because this entry made the first cut, someone else's entry that would have otherwise made it, didn't.
I know I would be mad as hell to find out I didn't make the first cut because a cheating entry crowded me out.
That's a really good point. I know for a lot of painters making the first cut is as good as a trophy. The whole affair is total Boo-urns.
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Post by: Grimtuff
So, was this a collabaration (i.e. one did the converting the other did the painting, such as in this UK GD entry from 5 years ago http://demonwinner.free.fr/uk/2004/golden_demon_winner.php?categorie=1) or did he just simply buy the minis?
This reminds me of a friend of mine who painted a Word Bearers army on commission for someone in the USA. The guy won a load of Best Painted awards at tournaments with it, yet was stumped when people asked him HOW he painted it. The buyer in question came scuttling back to my friend to reveal his recipes.
As soon as he heard what he did (he never claimed they were commissioned and just winged it through explaining the painting) he was rather peeved to say the least.
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Post by: Frazzled
H.B.M.C. wrote:Frazzled wrote:(wow bast&rd is not autofiltered)
Because 'bastard' isn't any more a swear word than 'bloody' or 'damn'.
Really? Call someone a bastard in public to their face, in a bar. See if you have all your teeth afterwards.
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Post by: insaniak
Frazzled wrote:Really? Call someone a bastard in public to their face, in a bar. See if you have all your teeth afterwards.
Maybe it's one of those cultural differences. That's just being friendly down here...
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Post by: Fishboy
Heh they never said it wasnt an insult....they just said it was not a cuss word.
Doesn't it mean you were born out of wedlock or something? Used to be a huge insult but not so much anymore heheh.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Fishboy wrote:Heh they never said it wasnt an insult....they just said it was not a cuss word.
Doesn't it mean you were born out of wedlock or something? Used to be a huge insult but not so much anymore heheh.
It does literally mean that yes but I don't suggest you use it in any fashion in the UK unless you deliberately want to be offensive.
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Post by: Oshova
Well it's used in Scotland a lot . . . but yeah Scotland isn;t really a part of the UK anymore lol
Still shocks me that someone would buy an awesomely painted model and try and pass it off as their own. I mean they didn't even get a cash prize . . . or any kind of prize other than being praised as something they're not!
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Post by: AdeptArtificer
It never ceases to amaze me how low people will go to make them feel good about themselves. I could care less about the painter's intentions. It is the buyer that is the disgrace to the hobby and the human race. Some people really embarrass us as a people. I hope no one will play this individual again.
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Post by: oni
Daggermaw wrote:That's it? No money? No models?
Who cares?
I'm willing to bet you don't have a single fethin' thing painted in your army.
There are plenty of others who care, mainly those who compete in the GD. Those whole toiled endlessly on their model were potentially cheated out of a win. Victimized by someone who did nothing more than exchange currency for a "winning" piece.
Think of it in terms of collecting art. What if the Mona Lisa painting were to be sold to an art collector and that collector started claiming it as his own work, reaping all of the rewards. It's fraud.
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Post by: barlio
If you don't paint an army, mini, whatever yourself, you deserve nuthin, NUTHIN I tell you.
At an Indy GT 3 years ago I voted for one of the players to win Best Painted (he ended up winning). I found out a few days later that his brother had painted it and I regretted voting for him because there was plenty of other people who did just as good work on their own.
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Post by: Frazzled
Here's an OT question:
*what if you buy a painted army and take to a tournament, but point out to everyone it wasn't painted by you/or tell judges ahead of time about it and you're out of running for any painting awards.
Any issue (I wouldn't see one). I could see taking a painted army to a tournament if that was noted and you weren't competing on the painting side-aka just came to play.
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Post by: Redbeard
In my mind, it's all about the honesty.
I believe that the reason tournaments require painted armies is to make a more enjoyable experience for all, and set the bar to entrance a little higher.
Using an army that someone else painted fulfills both of those, in my mind, and therefore is perfectly acceptable, and should even receive points for appearance that go towards a 'best overall' prize.
However, the best appearance/best painted award should go to someone who did their own work. Just as Best General is given to a person who earned their own battle points, not someone who had their friend stand next to them all game and tell them where to move their guys.
Tournament organizers should ask, players should be honest and volunteer the information, and take themselves out of contention for 'best appearance'.
But they should certainly be allowed to play, and even get a score that goes towards the overall prize. (By doing this, I believe that you don't punish people who simply cannot paint, but who want to compete for the overall title - and yet also make it so that they're able to be honest about the fact, and still reward the actual artists with the appearance award).
I think this is how the US GTs did it in 2008.
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Post by: porkuslime
Frazzled wrote:Here's an OT question:
*what if you buy a painted army and take to a tournament, but point out to everyone it wasn't painted by you/or tell judges ahead of time about it and you're out of running for any painting awards.
Any issue (I wouldn't see one). I could see taking a painted army to a tournament if that was noted and you weren't competing on the painting side-aka just came to play.
we had that happen at the Origins RTT. One of the players was using a "Painted Army that my friend painted" and knew and understood that it would disqualify him from "Best Painted" .. it really was nice that he stepped up and told us in advance, so we didn't mistakenly award him for another's work.
-P
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Post by: Flachzange
Redbeard wrote:In my mind, it's all about the honesty.
I believe that the reason tournaments require painted armies is to make a more enjoyable experience for all, and set the bar to entrance a little higher.
Using an army that someone else painted fulfills both of those, in my mind, and therefore is perfectly acceptable, and should even receive points for appearance that go towards a 'best overall' prize.
However, the best appearance/best painted award should go to someone who did their own work. Just as Best General is given to a person who earned their own battle points, not someone who had their friend stand next to them all game and tell them where to move their guys.
Tournament organizers should ask, players should be honest and volunteer the information, and take themselves out of contention for 'best appearance'.
But they should certainly be allowed to play, and even get a score that goes towards the overall prize. (By doing this, I believe that you don't punish people who simply cannot paint, but who want to compete for the overall title - and yet also make it so that they're able to be honest about the fact, and still reward the actual artists with the appearance award).
I think this is how the US GTs did it in 2008.
Sounds absolutely acceptable.
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Post by: jmurph
Frazzled wrote:Here's an OT question:
*what if you buy a painted army and take to a tournament, but point out to everyone it wasn't painted by you/or tell judges ahead of time about it and you're out of running for any painting awards.
Any issue (I wouldn't see one). I could see taking a painted army to a tournament if that was noted and you weren't competing on the painting side-aka just came to play.
Not unrelated, really.
No issue. The person is fully disclosing it isn't their work and not concealing it to potentially bump people who actually did paint their stuff.
The whole issue is one of misrepresentation. People don't care if someone else painted your stuff. Unless you lie about it. And since the GDs are purely a test of skill with pieces by the entrants to showcase that ability, it follows that entering another's work is wholly unacceptable.
To those with flippant comments like painting toys are seruz bizness, why else are you posting on such a forum? 
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Post by: Sidstyler
It is the buyer that is the disgrace to the hobby and the human race. Some people really embarrass us as a people.
I dunno, the way the painter handled the situation was pretty embarrassing too, in my opinion. But then again I'm "probable just bad painter" so what do I know.
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Post by: barlio
Frazzled wrote:Here's an OT question:
*what if you buy a painted army and take to a tournament, but point out to everyone it wasn't painted by you/or tell judges ahead of time about it and you're out of running for any painting awards.
Any issue (I wouldn't see one). I could see taking a painted army to a tournament if that was noted and you weren't competing on the painting side-aka just came to play.
If somebody points it out to me then they are getting major kudos and are probably going to get a max score in sportsmanship/comp (within reason of course). I'm giving them a 0 on painting, but if they are being honest then it shouldn't matter (they don't expect paint scores anyways).
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Post by: Kirasu
Im trying to figure out why someone would want to enter a contest to showcase *their* skill.. and enter someone elses work
How does that make you feel good? Does lying really lift your obviously extremely poor self esteem that much?
Cheating at the golden demon is just sad
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Post by: Oshova
At the last GW tourney I played in (doubles) there was a section on the entrance sheet that asked whether all your models had been painted by you. So by not ticking that box you would be excluded from being entered into the painting part of the tourney. One reason I love going to tourneys is to see how other people take painting their armies. My favourite army I've seen at a tourney was CSM, purple armour, with lava bases (resin), and lava decoration on the armour of EVERYTHING! It was sheer awesome! I voted for it, and would be devastated if I found out he didn't paint it . . . especially after talking to him about how he achieved the final look.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Kirasu wrote:Im trying to figure out why someone would want to enter a contest to showcase *their* skill.. and enter someone elses work
It's simply to bask in some glory, like people who cheat at most games. Unless there's money involved, it's just to be treated like a winner and get some attention.
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Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
Everyone loves a common enemy. I don't think people should care this much. I mean, it's just painting, it's not like the game, the REAL part, is affected 
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Post by: kirsanth
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Everyone loves a common enemy. I don't think people should care this much. I mean, it's just painting, it's not like the game, the REAL part, is affected
The competition you mean?
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Post by: keezus
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Everyone loves a common enemy. I don't think people should care this much. I mean, it's just painting, it's not like the game, the REAL part, is affected
Preparing a GD entry can easily take upwards of 60 hours spread over the course of months. Being able to win by clicking a "buy it now" icon cheapens and demeans the efforts of the rule abiding competitors.
I personally would love to make first cut at a GD - (I paint OK, but OK doesn't win GDs). If I was bumped by a cheater, I would definitely be pissed if I was on the borderline.
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Post by: Oshova
Yeah I would love to make the final cut . . . ohwell maybe another 10 years of practice =]
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Post by: GrimTeef
The people that don't understand why this is an offensive practice are just simply not creative. They've never created anything worth a damn that they care about and had a similar situation of someone taking credit for their work happen to them.
Just sounds like sour grapes when people say things like "who cares". Sure, you don't care, because you're an uncreative brick.
16274
Post by: Toxxic
GrimTeef wrote:Just sounds like sour grapes when people say things like "who cares". Sure, you don't care, because you're an uncreative brick.
Burn! That's harsh!
I think the rules for GD are stright forward and the guy(s) knew what was up, and still didn't care.
221
Post by: Frazzled
GrimTeef wrote:The people that don't understand why this is an offensive practice are just simply not creative. They've never created anything worth a damn that they care about and had a similar situation of someone taking credit for their work happen to them.
Just sounds like sour grapes when people say things like "who cares". Sure, you don't care, because you're an uncreative brick.
Good thing you're not making broad sweeping pronouncements there with no data whatsoever except the opinion you just pulled out of your butt.
Having said that, who exactly is saying this is not offensive again? Some of us are saying the artist selling the work wouldn't care much, except in a potentially positive manner as they can now claim that their works are GD winners. Some of us don't care because this is like #2,575,767,213 in great travesties in the world.
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Post by: Kirasu
GW events "where cheating pays"
Im looking forward to 'ard boyz finals this year to see what people try to pull off
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Post by: fullheadofhair
insaniak wrote:Frazzled wrote:Really? Call someone a bastard in public to their face, in a bar. See if you have all your teeth afterwards.
Maybe it's one of those cultural differences. That's just being friendly down here...
ahhh American cultural differences. I had to explain that immortal line in Shaun Of The Dead to my friends in the US - the line right at the beginning in the bar:-
"Any of you c***s want a drink"
People just didn't get that it was acceptable to use the c word at your friend.
186
Post by: GrimTeef
Of course there are more pressing concerns in the world. But this is dakka. We're generally concerned with toy soldiers and aspects thereof. Where else are we going to be concerned about this? Wasn't sure that we were previously discussing Afghanistan.
If the artist is fine with it, whatever, as long as there's ample proof that the artist did it. Otherwise it's someone taking credit for something they didn't do. Which could impact the artists' wallet and/or reputation down the line. In this case that might not happen. But rules were broken as well, so it's not just that.
221
Post by: Frazzled
GrimTeef wrote:Of course there are more pressing concerns in the world. But this is dakka. We're generally concerned with toy soldiers and aspects thereof. Where else are we going to be concerned about this? Wasn't sure that we were previously discussing Afghanistan.
If the artist is fine with it, whatever, as long as there's ample proof that the artist did it. Otherwise it's someone taking credit for something they didn't do. Which could impact the artists' wallet and/or reputation down the line. In this case that might not happen. But rules were broken as well, so it's not just that.
Sorry but I can't help noticing you didn't point to anyone actually saying this was not offensive.
186
Post by: GrimTeef
I guess I'm lumping the "who cares" crowd into the same group that don't find this offensive. Just felt that way to me, I suppose.
221
Post by: Frazzled
I see. They are separate.
186
Post by: GrimTeef
They can be separate. But they overlap in places as well. I'm speaking of the overlapped segment.
221
Post by: Frazzled
cool.
1478
Post by: warboss
barlio wrote:Frazzled wrote:Here's an OT question:
*what if you buy a painted army and take to a tournament, but point out to everyone it wasn't painted by you/or tell judges ahead of time about it and you're out of running for any painting awards.
Any issue (I wouldn't see one). I could see taking a painted army to a tournament if that was noted and you weren't competing on the painting side-aka just came to play.
If somebody points it out to me then they are getting major kudos and are probably going to get a max score in sportsmanship/comp (within reason of course). I'm giving them a 0 on painting, but if they are being honest then it shouldn't matter (they don't expect paint scores anyways).
i wholeheartedly disagree with that last part. i agree that you should disqualify them from winning the best painted army award but not that you give them zero points and screw them out of other awards. they went through the effort of earning money to buy the painted figs; if you're going to give them a zero then they should just spray paint and dab a few colors randomly on each fig to meet the 3 color minimum painted army standard. i've never competed in a games day tourny but does painting score contribute to overall points/awards? if so, you should judge their sportmanship based on sportmanship and the quality of the paint job by the quality of the paint job. if they didn't do the hobby work themselves, just disqualify their entry for that single award.
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Post by: phillosmaster
For the record I agree that what Marc did was dishonest and offensive. I just didn't see a reason to start throwing eggs at Karol as well.
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Post by: utan
Hmm...
I did not see the CMON listings before they were removed. Therefore, I do not know what the painter had to say about this.
The fraudulent winner deserves to be disqualified and banned from competitions going forward.
If the real painter did not know beforehand the plans of the customer, I see no reason to be so harsh on him. If he recognized his own work upon seeing the contest winners, it is good that he stepped forward and identified the work as his own so that the fraud would be discovered.
The only motivation I can come up with for the painter to have been "in on it" is if he was specifically paid to allow the customer to enter the work as his own and not just for the paintjob. However, this does not make sense since he would not have later announced to the world that it was his work since he was "paid off".
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Post by: Panic
yeah,
I think Marc behaved like a git. he bought a Gold Daemon, that's offensive. what's shocking is the scumbag has been trying to buy one for years!
Karol wrote:I did not agree put it on golden daemon for marc. He used your name but Without my knowledge.People who descend my rating are not fair for me.Probable a lot of these people are bad painter.
I also believe that Karol knew about this. Marc has entered previous 'buy it now entries' of Karols that almost won. And it was reported that his CMON entry was quickly updated to sing about winning... So I ask who do you suppose it was that told him that the models won? I suspect it was Marc.
Karol also doesn't seem to care that another painter who turned up and entered his work fair and square was cheated out of gold. I see no appology in his comments. All I see is that he was happy to tell the world his painting won another gold daemon.... this is offensive too!
Now wheres my pitch fork and torch!
PAnic...
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Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
I was kidding, fyi
5478
Post by: Panic
yeah,
Just been poking around the Cool Mini or NOT website forum, to see what painters think of this and found this...
Looks like he's going to be stripped of the title.
I hope they both get Banned!
BlackCap wrote:
Hey all,
We are aware of what is going on with Marc's entries and have sent him an email regarding his pending disqualifications. As we don't have ALL the facts in just yet, we are apprehensive about taking action immediately until we hear his side. All evidence is pointing to the worst, but it's only fair to hear his story.
We hope to do the following to amend the situation provided that Marc's entries are indeed disqualified:
1. Post the amended winners and notify those who earned 4th place they have received an award.
2. Notify those that won awards in the Open, WFB Regiment, and WFB Monster categories that they should send their golden demon statues back to us at the HQ for re-distribution.
3. Send out the appropriate awards and post the coverage with the correct winners. As it stands, if those three entries are disqualified, the following people will win the awards:
Warhammer Monster
Gold - Kyle Morgan - Chaos Giant
Silver Dave Pauwels - Rat Ogre
Bronze - James Wappel - Slann Mage Priest
Warhammer Regiment
Gold - Kyle Morgan - Red Great Swords
Silver - James Wappel - Salamander Hunting Pack
Bronze - Dylan Gauker - Nurgle Beastmen
Open
Gold - Tim Lison - The Fall of Egrehafen
Silver - Chris Borer - Night Goblin Boss
Bronze - John Shaffer - Snikrot on Rynn's World
I'm sure it may raise eyebrows that my name is on this list, but I assure you I in no way had any influence over the judging of the Open nor was Tim or I even in the vicinity during judging of that category. We always choose a 4th place in case of tomfoolery, and I was lucky enough to be chosen for 4th in a pretty tough category.
Thanks again to those of you that keep an eye out for such things - we will certainly put into place measures to help ensure honesty during the registration process for next year. Unfortunately we often don't know until well after the fact. We're open for suggestions on how we can avoid this sort of thing in the future as it seems to happen in the US all too often. Please post your suggestions here if you like.
If you have any further questions or concerns, just shout!
john.shaffer@games-workshop.com
John Shaffer
Golden Demon Staff
I also think that it's only fair that Kyle Morgan and Tim Lison get Smash Marcs minis and Piss in Karols water jar...
Panic...
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Post by: Frazzled
Wait why are GW staff submitting works?
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Post by: dietrich
GW Staff can only submit in the Open Category, iirc.
5478
Post by: Panic
yeah,
It's allowed in the Open Catagory....
anything goes. that's why it's Open!
Panic...
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Post by: Shotgun
GW staff have always been able to enter the Open category along with (not sure if it still exists or not) the Staff category.
Good to see Tim's work getting recognized. That guy was the best thing about the Chicago Bunker. I still remember the look on his face when he realized that he had announced the name of my entry "Valtrex the Suppressor".
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Post by: phillosmaster
Panic wrote:yeah, I think Marc behaved like a git. he bought a Gold Daemon, that's offensive. what's shocking is the scumbag has been trying to buy one for years! Karol wrote:I did not agree put it on golden daemon for marc. He used your name but Without my knowledge.People who descend my rating are not fair for me.Probable a lot of these people are bad painter.
I also believe that Karol knew about this. Marc has entered previous 'buy it now entries' of Karols that almost won. And it was reported that his CMON entry was quickly updated to sing about winning... So I ask who do you suppose it was that told him that the models won? I suspect it was Marc. Karol also doesn't seem to care that another painter who turned up and entered his work fair and square was cheated out of gold. I see no appology in his comments. All I see is that he was happy to tell the world his painting won another gold daemon.... this is offensive too! Now wheres my pitch fork and torch! PAnic...
Marc tried to pass someone else's work as his own. Stone him. Karol didn't apologize for selling a mini that he painted on commision..... what are we angry about again?
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Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
phillosmaster wrote:
Karol didn't apologize for selling a mini that he painted on commision..... what are we angry about again?
He claimed he didn't know that Marc submitted it, even though he changed his pictures to say "Golden Demon Winner." He didn't notify GW, just tried to profit off of it and apparently we all need to curse his babies. 20 bucks says he's getting flooded with commissions right now.
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Post by: barlio
warboss wrote:barlio wrote:Frazzled wrote:Here's an OT question:
*what if you buy a painted army and take to a tournament, but point out to everyone it wasn't painted by you/or tell judges ahead of time about it and you're out of running for any painting awards.
Any issue (I wouldn't see one). I could see taking a painted army to a tournament if that was noted and you weren't competing on the painting side-aka just came to play.
If somebody points it out to me then they are getting major kudos and are probably going to get a max score in sportsmanship/comp (within reason of course). I'm giving them a 0 on painting, but if they are being honest then it shouldn't matter (they don't expect paint scores anyways).
i wholeheartedly disagree with that last part. i agree that you should disqualify them from winning the best painted army award but not that you give them zero points and screw them out of other awards. they went through the effort of earning money to buy the painted figs; if you're going to give them a zero then they should just spray paint and dab a few colors randomly on each fig to meet the 3 color minimum painted army standard. i've never competed in a games day tourny but does painting score contribute to overall points/awards? if so, you should judge their sportmanship based on sportmanship and the quality of the paint job by the quality of the paint job. if they didn't do the hobby work themselves, just disqualify their entry for that single award.
I understand what you are saying, but that's the price you have to be willing to pay if you don't want to do the work yourself. I kind of like the "opt out" option someone described. If anything make everything outside of painting (i.e. Sportsmanship, Composition, Battlepoints) count towards the Overall Winner. If there is a tie that cannot be broken by Comp, Sports, etc... then go to painting. If Player A (painted) and Player B(unpainted) have the same amount of points (in everything other than painting) than Player A should win because his army is painted to a higher quality.
In regards to RTTs and GTs/IndyGTS painting does indeed go towards the overall score. If you don't paint your own stuff then you are choosing to opt out of top X spots. That's just the way it is.
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Post by: gameandwatch
Wait wait wait, do we know for sure if he wasn't standing for Karol? Sorry, didnt read all of this 6 page monster to find out if had already been mentioned...
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Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
Standing is against the rules specifically. It's supposed to be you representing you.
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Post by: RiTides
I wouldn't say this is not offensive, but I also wouldn't tar and feather the person for it (not saying that anyone was doing that, but sometimes these things tend towards a mob mentality where the punishment doesn't fit the crime).
The facts (from what I can tell):
1. The painter's work is brilliant
2. They broke the rules by not being present to enter their models.
3. They will receive just punishment (losing the awards won, and being banned from entering in the future)
I think the punishment fits the crime, and we should leave it at that. I certainly wouldn't boycott their future work, or rate their miniatures a "1" to get even. The results will be adjusted, they will lose the awards, they will be banned from entering. Justice is served, right?
Call me out if I'm wrong about this, but that's about the sum of it from what I can tell! And my $0.02 on it being just about handled and done with, and there not needing to be further punishment for the offending parties than what is already is in the process of being given.
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Post by: LunaHound
Would GW care so much if the "cheaters" didnt win anything?
Why do i have a weird feeling that they are banning Karol from future competitions because they are afraid of his/her talents? Its a good chance to eliminate a future rival ?
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Post by: Khornholio
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Everyone loves a common enemy. I don't think people should care this much. I mean, it's just painting, it's not like the game, the REAL part, is affected
Yeah, but it was THE painting competition. Even if a GW or independent retailer had a painting comp and someone entered stuff that wasn't theirs, it still the fact that they are cheating. Period. Somewhere in this thread, pages ago, someone made the analogy of Bonds and roids. It's still cheating and look how that was on sports talk radio forever. People care when others think they are so awesome that the rules don't apply to them. That's why I think people are so worked up about it.
The game, the REAL part, is centred around sportsmanship. The painting comps should be too. What if it was discovered that the winner of a GT had an extra 200 points on the board and mashed everyone by turn 4? In principle, it is the same thing. 
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Post by: Mastiff
LunaHound wrote:
Would GW care so much if the "cheaters" didnt win anything?
Why do i have a weird feeling that they are banning Karol from future competitions because they are afraid of his/her talents? Its a good chance to eliminate a future rival ?
I think you're a wee bit paranoid there. 
Karol is an incredibly talented painter., but whether he enters in the future or not, there will be other talented painters entering. Why would eliminating him have any effect on the judges? He's not a rival to "them" (those with the power to ban him).
Personally I don't have any problem with Karol. He got paid for his talent, and as a bonus got one of the highest accolades in the hobby for his work. It's all win for him. Even posting his win on CMON just shows good business sense. It's all up to the guy who entered to put things right.
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Post by: insaniak
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:He claimed he didn't know that Marc submitted it, even though he changed his pictures to say "Golden Demon Winner."
Actually, going by his comments on CMON, he knew that Marc was submitting it, just not that he was submitting it under his own name.
I suspect that the original agreement was for Marc to submit the minis in proxy as Karols. Which (according to various posts elsewhere) is allowed in some GDs. Just not the one in question.
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Post by: RiTides
insaniak wrote:I suspect that the original agreement was for Marc to submit the minis in proxy as Karols. Which (according to various posts elsewhere) is allowed in some GDs. Just not the one in question.
If this is allowed in some GDs, it's very possible that it was just an oversight by Karol! I think people are coming down too hard on him (and Marc) without having all of the facts. What if they simply didn't read the submission rules? You can say "tough cookies" but it means they committed a silly mistake, not a heinous act of subterfuge. And since they will pay the penalty (a stiff one), there's really no need to attack them as people without knowing if it was simply an error.
I especially think that Dave Taylor's blog post was too harsh. Here's a quote:
Dave Taylor blog wrote:I wish you nothing but unhappiness in your future toy soldier endeavors. You sully the hobby. While the painting may be spectacular, the spirit is so false it makes my skin crawl!
...
Edit: perhaps I was overly harsh on Karol. I'm not sure.
We're acting like a judge passing down a sentence, without a jury or a trial... (my wife had jury duty yesterday, so maybe my mind is on this )
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Post by: jmurph
The community always judges. It's what people do. They have opinions. Nothing wrong with that so long as they don't grab pitchforks and torches ;-)
It will all get sorted out and GW seems to be reacting responsibly, getting all sides and taking steps to correct th problem. While Marc's behavior was deplorable, the reaction and handling incident reflects well on the GDs.
5516
Post by: Major Malfunction
Frazzled wrote:Here's an OT question:
*what if you buy a painted army and take to a tournament, but point out to everyone it wasn't painted by you/or tell judges ahead of time about it and you're out of running for any painting awards.
Any issue (I wouldn't see one). I could see taking a painted army to a tournament if that was noted and you weren't competing on the painting side-aka just came to play.
I think such an army should be disqualified from "Best Painted" and the painting should not count towards "Best Overall".
If you didn't actually *paint* the army then how can that score count towards Best Overall? If you think that it can, then can I hire a guy to *play* the game for me if I painted the army? How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?
Personally I think we cheapen the "Best Overall" if we allow purchased painted armies to count towards it. At that point it just becomes "Best General with the Deepest Pockets".
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Post by: NecronLord3
The Green Git wrote:Frazzled wrote:Here's an OT question:
*what if you buy a painted army and take to a tournament, but point out to everyone it wasn't painted by you/or tell judges ahead of time about it and you're out of running for any painting awards.
Any issue (I wouldn't see one). I could see taking a painted army to a tournament if that was noted and you weren't competing on the painting side-aka just came to play.
I think such an army should be disqualified from "Best Painted" and the painting should not count towards "Best Overall".
If you didn't actually *paint* the army then how can that score count towards Best Overall? If you think that it can, then can I hire a guy to *play* the game for me if I painted the army? How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?
Personally I think we cheapen the "Best Overall" if we allow purchased painted armies to count towards it. At that point it just becomes "Best General with the Deepest Pockets".
Actually if you check the rules this situation is specifically addressed. GW doesn't have a problem with it as long as you remove yourself from consideration for certain awards.
...anyone can field an army they did
not paint themselves.
Before the tournament begins, everyone will be asked if they
painted their own army. Those that did are eligible for all the
awards we will present at the end of each event. Those that did
not are only eligible for the Best General, Best Sportsmanship,
and Favorite Opponent awards.
The Fraud with at Chicago's GD 2009 is a completely different situation. There is no excuse for what happened. Anyone who suggests that any of us are unfairly judging Karol or Marc, is completely off base IMO. This was a PAINTING competition. You don't enter a piece that YOU didn't paint, and you are responsible for reading the rules before you enter any competition of any kind. Should it just be overlooked if I bring a 8,000 pt army to a tournament of only 1750pts, just because I didn't read the rules. "Gee I guess it was just a silly mistake that my Titan found its way into my army list right? Lets just overlook it this time, okay?" Karol is hardly not to blame either as he used the GD win as a way to promote his painting commission sales, and this is not the first time he has been involved in such a situation.
I am happy to see Karol's listings have been removed from Coolminiornot. Not sure if this was the doing of CMON, or Karol himself.
21
Post by: blood angel
So he shouldn't be recognized as a painter because he didn't buy a plane ticket to the competition?
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Post by: NecronLord3
No but he shouldn't be using the exploits of the competition to advertise his painting services.
Should I be given awards from a Grand Tournament if you use my painted army to win it with?
If Karol want's recognition for his painting skills he should preference any connection to the Fraudulent entry with a disclaimer that he is aware of what transpired but that it was done without his knowledge or consent. Not say, this was a GD winner buy more stuff from me! To do anything else is working as an accomplice to the fraud, at the very least after the fact and possibly before.
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Post by: R3con
It seems if this is true its totally against the "spirit" of a golden demon competition
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Post by: Fishboy
How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?
So can I get a game in then?
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Post by: dietrich
Personally, I'm glad to see GW, in a rare display of backbone, actually enforce their own rules.
I don't know either person involved. I have no ill-wishes towards them. I don't know if it was an honest mistake or of malicious intent. And, I don't care.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=3900014&pIndex=2&aId=16400003&start=3
GUIDELINES FOR ENTRIES
All entries must be personally handed in by their creator and registered at Games Day on the day. We will not accept any entries on behalf of competitors who are not in attendance at the event. All entries must be collected from the show stands at specified times by the entrant in person. These times will be published in the Games Day program and will be announced over the PA system on the day. All models should be the work of a single hobbyist. All work on models entered into the Golden Demon including but not limited to painting, modeling, converting, after-market sculpting, and basing must be performed entirely by the entrant. Neither models obtained from someone else in any state of completion nor collaborative efforts may be entered. Anyone found violating this rule will be immediately disqualified and forbidden from entering future Golden Demon painting competitions.
It establishes the guidelines pretty clearly.
1. Must be handed in by the creator. And, if even specifically states that you can't hand in someone else's work.
2. Must be the work of one hobbyist Even states that it can't be bought at any stage of completion or a collaborative effort - just one person!
3. Anyone violating the rules will be disbarred and permanently banned.
Now, I suppose it's not clear if the Submitter or the Creator are banned, or both, since that isn't explicately stated.
Whether you think the punishment is excessively harsh or not (personally, I would think something like a 10 year ban suitable, but hey - it's GW's contest!), at least they are enforcing their own requirements.
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Post by: aka_mythos
blood angel wrote:So he shouldn't be recognized as a painter because he didn't buy a plane ticket to the competition?
He can be recognized if he bothers to show up. Otherwise, err, no! I think the idea of proxy entries are lame. The competition is part of the event. If you can't make that one of the Gamesdays there are a couple others. If you can't make those there is always the next year. This is like what a six time or more a year event, if someone can't be bothered to make one, they can either wait or just not participate.
Even if the rules allowed it, which in this case they didn't, the rules should probably be changed to disallow it.
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Post by: dietrich
I think the reason they don't allow proxy submissions is to prevent someone from trying to monopolize all the Golden Daemons. It would be easy to ship an entry and have a friend enter it for you. This way, either someone pays for a lot of airfare, or they're probably only going to collect GDs at two, maybe three, events a year. It gives other people a chance to win something.
129
Post by: Vengis
RiTides Nids wrote:insaniak wrote:I suspect that the original agreement was for Marc to submit the minis in proxy as Karols. Which (according to various posts elsewhere) is allowed in some GDs. Just not the one in question.
If this is allowed in some GDs, it's very possible that it was just an oversight by Karol! I think people are coming down too hard on him (and Marc) without having all of the facts. What if they simply didn't read the submission rules? You can say "tough cookies" but it means they committed a silly mistake, not a heinous act of subterfuge. And since they will pay the penalty (a stiff one), there's really no need to attack them as people without knowing if it was simply an error.
I especially think that Dave Taylor's blog post was too harsh. Here's a quote:
Dave Taylor blog wrote:I wish you nothing but unhappiness in your future toy soldier endeavors. You sully the hobby. While the painting may be spectacular, the spirit is so false it makes my skin crawl!
...
Edit: perhaps I was overly harsh on Karol. I'm not sure.
We're acting like a judge passing down a sentence, without a jury or a trial... (my wife had jury duty yesterday, so maybe my mind is on this )
If I remember correctly, you actually have to sign for each piece you enter, acknowledging you read and understand the rules. I know they at least have copies of the rules when you go to sign up. And the guy wasn't submitting the models as Karol's. He submitted them as his. Big fething difference there.
Dave Taylor's post is spot on, in my opinion. I can't say for Karol, because I don't know how much he was involved (although I suspect he was in on it completely) What the guy did is a slap in the face to anyone who has ever entered a GD with their own work.
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Post by: augustus5
Manfred von Drakken wrote:augustus5 wrote:Are the awards for "Best Painter" or "Best Painted"? If it is the latter then I can't see any wrongdoing in hiring someone to paint a beautiful army for you to show at tourneys.
Except they're not talking about a tournament, they're talking about a highly prestigious painting competition in our hobby; a competition whose rules rather clearly state that you can only enter your own work.
(Personally, I'm not a huge fan of paying someone else to paint your army for you, either; this is an all-around hobby, paint your own minis.)
Well I wasn't sure as to the rules for the competition. Many people show cars that they customize or build up and don't do the paint work themselves but they pay well for it and deserve to win a car show. I don't see how a miniature show would be vastly different.
Your second point is a little rash in my opinion. You assume that this is an all around hobby, but for many it is not.
I have painted my own armies and I have also bought nicely painted armies second hand. I enjoy the modelling aspect a bit but my main pleasure in 40k comes from playing the game. There are many people who paint the models and like the fluff and don't play at all. They are just as much a part of this hobby as people like you who seem to look down on somebody who may not enjoy painting and has the money to have a studio paint their miniatures for them.
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Post by: Khornholio
Historical Military Miniature Painting societies (54mm, 90mm, that sort of stuff) take fraudulent entries at their competitions very seriously. Perps are stripped of their award and basically ostracized from the community.
I think GW is just following precedent. Good on 'em.
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Post by: Daggermaw
I definitely think this needs to be looked into more.
I think a congressional hearing is in order.
This is like some kid cheating in a 4th grade art show. As far as miniature painting competitions go the GD isn't very high on the list.
I think the only reason people are getting worked up about this is because the space wolves codex isn't out yet for them to complain about.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Waaagh_Gonads wrote:People are starting to rate his models with 1's on CMON (and I can't blame them)
Pretty weak if true.
I'm not sure what giving the painters models "1's" is meant to accomplish. Rate the works on their own, separate from the controversy and whatnot. CMON rating should not be for grudges against the painters and rating down things that shouldn't be downrated. If it's a beautiful work it should be rated as such, if one has complaints as to the painters ethics they should be addressed separately.
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Post by: Major Malfunction
NecronLord3 wrote:The Green Git wrote:If you didn't actually *paint* the army then how can that score count towards Best Overall? If you think that it can, then can I hire a guy to *play* the game for me if I painted the army? How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?
Personally I think we cheapen the "Best Overall" if we allow purchased painted armies to count towards it. At that point it just becomes "Best General with the Deepest Pockets".
Actually if you check the rules this situation is specifically addressed. GW doesn't have a problem with it as long as you remove yourself from consideration for certain awards.
I've been to a lot of RTT events and some Indy events that do NOT disqualify purchased paint jobs from "Best Overall". Just saying that I don't think it's right, and apparently GW agrees with me. Rock on.
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Post by: imweasel
Fishboy wrote: How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?
So can I get a game in then?
Take a number. I already got mine. Automatically Appended Next Post: Frazzled wrote:Some of us don't care because this is like #2,575,767,213 in great travesties in the world.
Taken in the view of the world, sure.
Taken in the view of the spirit of this forum (dakka), I am suprised a mod would have that attitude.
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Post by: BorderCountess
augustus5 wrote:Manfred von Drakken wrote:augustus5 wrote:Are the awards for "Best Painter" or "Best Painted"? If it is the latter then I can't see any wrongdoing in hiring someone to paint a beautiful army for you to show at tourneys.
Except they're not talking about a tournament, they're talking about a highly prestigious painting competition in our hobby; a competition whose rules rather clearly state that you can only enter your own work.
(Personally, I'm not a huge fan of paying someone else to paint your army for you, either; this is an all-around hobby, paint your own minis.)
Well I wasn't sure as to the rules for the competition. Many people show cars that they customize or build up and don't do the paint work themselves but they pay well for it and deserve to win a car show. I don't see how a miniature show would be vastly different.
Your second point is a little rash in my opinion. You assume that this is an all around hobby, but for many it is not.
I have painted my own armies and I have also bought nicely painted armies second hand. I enjoy the modelling aspect a bit but my main pleasure in 40k comes from playing the game. There are many people who paint the models and like the fluff and don't play at all. They are just as much a part of this hobby as people like you who seem to look down on somebody who may not enjoy painting and has the money to have a studio paint their miniatures for them.
First Point: The rules are rather clear; for GD, you have to show up with your own work and enter your own work. Clearly this was not the case here: the rule were broken, and violators must be punished.
Second Point: Maybe a little harsh, but in a setting where an Overall award was factoring in painting, I personally would step aside if I brought an army I didn't paint. I would rather take pride in my badly-painted-by-me models than something I bought off eBay. Maybe I'm in the minority, there.
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Post by: thehod
Frazzled wrote:Some of us don't care because this is like #2,575,767,213 in great travesties in the world.
Thats like travesty # 432,652 for GW.
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Post by: BorderCountess
thehod wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Some of us don't care because this is like #2,575,767,213 in great travesties in the world.
Thats like travesty # 432,652 for GW.
But for the people who got cheated out of gold, this may be Travesty #1 to them. I know I'd be pissed.
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Post by: CT GAMER
dietrich wrote:Personally, I'm glad to see GW, in a rare display of backbone, actually enforce their own rules.
Accidents happen i guess... Automatically Appended Next Post: Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not sure what giving the painters models "1's" is meant to accomplish. Rate the works on their own, separate from the controversy and whatnot.
Right because the Dakka galleries are never used that way...
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Post by: Sidstyler
Shaman wrote:lol at the QQ in this thread... painting toys is serious business.
And that excuses cheating...how?
Gotta say, that's a pretty piss-poor attempt to argue. "lolz why so serious?" Is it really so hard to understand?
Nothing wrong with that so long as they don't grab pitchforks and torches ;-)
*cocks shotgun*
...what? It's not a torch!
How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?
I'd like a redhead.
Taken in the view of the spirit of this forum (dakka), I am suprised a mod would have that attitude.
Indeed...I mean if you want to go down that route then why is Dakka even here? We all have better things to do, surely, and just about anything else you can think of is more important than Warhammer, so...
I'll take your mod position if you don't mind.
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Post by: RustyKnight
I think we should hunt down Karol and cut off his hands so he can't paint anymore. Hell, who knows what happened, I want to feel better about myself. We should probably melt down all of his minis while we're at it.
Maybe we should beat up Frazzled too. God forbid he think that this isn't worth getting worked up over.
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Post by: Frazzled
You'll note later in the thread I agreed with the posters that this is wrong (at least in my head, sometimes my posts never make it to the screen which is probably for the best). I'll repeat and restate-upon fruther thought I was incorrect and this is a big deal in the painting side of the community. I still don't think this means squat for the original painter because he's a painter and selling a service. The entrant though should be banned from future GW competitions and events.
RustyKnight wrote:
Maybe we should beat up Frazzled too. God forbid he think that this isn't worth getting worked up over.
You could try it but She Who Must Be Obeyed might be displeased. You don't want to make her angry. You wouldn't like her when she's angry... 
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Post by: Fishboy
She Who Must Be Obeyed might be displeased.
I now know who you are hehehe. But I will say she looks good in green too hehehe.
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Post by: Frazzled
Someone help me out though-general query. Why are GW employees allowed to compete in a GW competition? Nothing against GW employees, but usually employees of an organization running a competition are not allowed to compete.
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Post by: Toxxic
They have their own category.
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Post by: Mastiff
Frazzled wrote:Someone help me out though-general query. Why are GW employees allowed to compete in a GW competition? Nothing against GW employees, but usually employees of an organization running a competition are not allowed to compete.
It was mentioned earlier, but the Open Category is open to absolutely anyone, including previous Slayer Sword winners and staff. It has the most inclusive entry criteria (allows scratch-built 54mm minis for example, doesn't need to include GW bitz). It's kind of the cage-match of painting and modelling; anything goes. This is open to 'eavy Metal painters as well.
I don't recall an Open entry ever winning a Slayer Sword, and I believe the intention is that you can't win the SS through but I could be wrong.
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Post by: Sidstyler
This thread is full of fail. Apparently if you call someone out on their cheating you're just a bully and an donkey-cave who takes Warhams way too seriously. 
I don't take the hobby all that seriously, I just hate cheaters. But honestly I can't fathom why anyone would actually defend the guy, or the unapologetic donkey-cave he commissioned. This isn't some minor technicality, he broke a major rule, he didn't earn or deserve his prize and I'm glad GW had the balls to enforce their own fething rules this time.
God, the Warhammer scene is a pretty spineless one, isn't it? "Oh hey, we don't care what you do in painting competitions or tournaments! Cheat all you want, we're cool, I mean we may play with plastic toys but we're not nerds about it, feth that amiright? I don't even know why we play this stupid game, Warhammer is so gay. Please say we're cool, please, PLEASE!"
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Post by: Frazzled
Toxxic wrote:They have their own category.
I'm down with GW em, ps having their own category. Not that keen on them if they are in other categories though. But I don't have a dog in that hunt and imagine at this level all persons have substantial access to resources (which is my issue). Its all good.
This thread is full of fail. Apparently if you call someone out on their cheating you're just a bully and an donkey-cave who takes Warhams way too seriously.
Sid you're just a bully and a donkey-cave who takes Warhams too seriously. sorry couldn't resist. You really should be a mod, I tweak them the same amount, ask Malf.
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Post by: Oxfordseth
There is no longer an employee category, so now the only category an employee can compete in is the open. There use to be an employee version of each category, now they cut the number of trophies in half, by dropping them.
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Post by: J'santai Khan
And this is the exact reason that I REFUSE to spend the money and waste the time to go to GD and enter anything. GW will 'ban' these two from further entry & demand the return of the trophies. Oh my! In the mean time, the fellow who did the painting will increase his commision price 3 fold, sit back and rake in the dollars. I guess, as wrong as it may be ethically, that it's just the way of things.... I still don't have to like it.
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Post by: Mithrax
This thread reminds me of a scene from Pee-Wee's Big Adventure:
Biker #2: I say we kill him!
Biker Gang: YEAH!
Biker #3: I say we hang him, then we kill him!
Biker Gang: YEAH!
Biker #4: I say we stomp him!
Biker Gang: YEAH!
Biker #4: Then we tattoo him!
Biker Gang: YEAH!
Biker #4: Then we hang him!
Biker Gang: YEAH!!
Biker #4: And then we kill him!
Biker Gang: YEAH!!!
Pee-wee: [tries to throw his voice without moving his lips] I say we let him go.
Biker Gang: NO!!!
Biker Mama: [whistles] I say ya let ME have him first!
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
The Green Git wrote:How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?
You do that, it'd be pretty ungrateful not to get top marks! 
Of course, it'd be better if, at the very end of the event, it's a Crying Game situation and all of your opponents rush to the bathroom...
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Post by: Breotan
Mithrax wrote:This thread reminds me of a scene from Pee-Wee's Big Adventure
That movie was so full of suck and fail that I can't believe it was even released to video. The only amusing part in the whole thing was Large Marge - and only then if you aren't expecting it.
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Post by: Hollismason
Breotan wrote:Mithrax wrote:This thread reminds me of a scene from Pee-Wee's Big Adventure
That movie was so full of suck and fail that I can't believe it was even released to video. The only amusing part in the whole thing was Large Marge - and only then if you aren't expecting it.
I hope that when you are making love to your favorite barn yard animal and you set the scene with candles and lighting and the mood is perfect then the candle falls over and sets the barn on fire and you're genitals are horribly burned and fused to whatever beast you decide to copulate with and you have to live with the dead burned corpse of your farmyard lover attached to your pelvis as the doctors are unable to remove it then after years of staring in the cold dead lifeless eyes of said animal you decide to end your life by throwing yourself off a bridge but the dead body of your lover catches on a overhanging rafter leaving you stranded hanging by your groin stuck to the dead body of your lover then Carrier Pidgeons peck out your eyes and eat your tongue and you stay there for days hanging from underneath the bridge until you die of starvation, blind and unable to cry for help hanging from underneath a bridge with your dead lovers corpse fused to your genitals.
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Post by: Sidstyler
...yeah, someone likes them their Pee-Wee.
"This is crack."
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Post by: Neconilis
Hollismason wrote:Breotan wrote:Mithrax wrote:This thread reminds me of a scene from Pee-Wee's Big Adventure
That movie was so full of suck and fail that I can't believe it was even released to video. The only amusing part in the whole thing was Large Marge - and only then if you aren't expecting it.
I hope that when you are making love to your favorite barn yard animal and you set the scene with candles and lighting and the mood is perfect then the candle falls over and sets the barn on fire and you're genitals are horribly burned and fused to whatever beast you decide to copulate with and you have to live with the dead burned corpse of your farmyard lover attached to your pelvis as the doctors are unable to remove it then after years of staring in the cold dead lifeless eyes of said animal you decide to end your life by throwing yourself off a bridge but the dead body of your lover catches on a overhanging rafter leaving you stranded hanging by your groin stuck to the dead body of your lover then Carrier Pidgeons peck out your eyes and eat your tongue and you stay there for days hanging from underneath the bridge until you die of starvation, blind and unable to cry for help hanging from underneath a bridge with your dead lovers corpse fused to your genitals.
I prostrate myself before you, oh master of hate and spite, teach me your ways so that I may use them to smite mine foes.
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Post by: NecronLord3
Breotan wrote:Mithrax wrote:This thread reminds me of a scene from Pee-Wee's Big Adventure
That movie was so full of suck and fail that I can't believe it was even released to video. The only amusing part in the whole thing was Large Marge - and only then if you aren't expecting it.
No offense but, I dislike you a great deal.
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Post by: Lanceradvanced
forgive me if that's not a womens name, it seems the most similiar to Carol so...
You may ask Pope John Paul II to intercede on your behalf if you wish forgiveness...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_II
Redbeard wrote: Pete Rose was a baseball cheat, he got banned from the hall of fame.
Actually he was accused of gambling on baseball games.. He says he never bet on a game he was involved in, others think otherwise...
Usually when one gambles on a game, where you cheat in it, you cheat to -lose- as that's the sure thing...
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Post by: Spacemanvic
Is anyone surprised!?!? This isnt the only fraud to come out of Chicago recently....
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Post by: Frazzled
Modquisiiton on: this thread is so closed its not funny.
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