Howdy all. I am new to 40k, but not to look like such a newb; I have read rulebook several times over. My first army is Necrons. I have only played 2 games and won both. This issue pops up all over the place I noticed. Everyone seems to only read what they want and not the entirety of the rule description. I have codex here with me and new rulebook. BTW I have 2 rulebooks; one for traveling and one for home. On page 40 on the first bullet point second to last sentence it states "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over." Now I know for a fact that codex overides rule conflicts. Yet there is no rule conflict because it clearly states "UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED", which could include expansions and codexes. On page 13 of the Necron codex in the We'll Be Back description, it states. "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its' side to show that it is damaged." I know and everyone agrees in my club that this counts counts as "UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED". The reason or fluff behind a unit getting swept can mean anything anyone wants it to mean; from running, hiding, left for dead, captured and wounded. It is in black and white on page 40. Funny thing is that my club wasn't allowing WBB rolls from sweeping advance because no one bothered to look in the codex and relied on forum posts rather that the rulebook and codex. I hope this helps and is and can be done in tourneys. There is no weird or unclarified rules here. It is simple and I for one could care less if a new necron book comes out anytime soon. I imagine my opinion will change once I suffer my first loss.

I tried looking at other threads but, they just started arguing their own interpretations. I really hopes this clears up a lot for necron players; people really seem to have a hate on for us I am starting to notice.

No, WBB does not work against SA. End of Discussion.

-Cries as the memories of the last thread resurface-

Why? I know this is a heavy topic everywhere, Space marines and I am sure other factions can overcome, counter or prevent it. I don't understand why soo many non-necron players fight it tooth and nail.

Wow has it been two weeks already/
Ok.
"no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"
Is WWB a special rule?
yes.
In WWB does it mention Sweeping Advance?
No it does not.

So sweeping advance removes the unit from play.

As a new player you may not know the history of these two rules.
In the 4th ed rules , which were the same except for the statement after "special rule , like WWB"
Specific codex rules can over-rule general BRB rules.
WWB does not have the specific rule to over-rule sweeping advance.

The funny thing is the two rules are the exact same word for word, other than the mention of WBB, yet people still claim it somehow works now >: (

jspyd3rx wrote:Why? I know this is a heavy topic everywhere, Space marines and I am sure other factions can overcome, counter or prevent it. I don't understand why soo many non-necron players fight it tooth and nail.

Because Space Marines Specifically say they can, like the rule says they have to. Necrons do not. Excuse us for wanting to play by the rules!

My understanding is that the necron codex was written along time ago and didn't need to specify sweeping advances because it was specified in the 4th edition rulebook. Now new rulebook is out and it is not in there; though it does state unless otherwise specified. The necron codex wasn't written for 5 edition, yet everyone knows codex overules big rulebook. Now is the unit counted as a casualty? If that necron unit is counted as a casualty; then it gets its' WBB roll if it meets the regular requirements for WBB like close similar unit or tomb spyder.

Gwar and seattle cover it precisely, reread what they have said. Its not about what WBB says, its about what sweeping advance says.


Sliggoth

jspyd3rx wrote:My understanding is that the necron codex was written along time ago

And? So were the Dark Eldar, Space Wolf and Inquisition codex's

The necron codex wasn't written for 5 edition,

See previous Comments

yet everyone knows codex overules big rulebook.

Wrong. Specific Overrides General. Also, Sweeping advance SPECIFICALY states Codex does NOT overrule Rulebook in that case.

Sliggoth wrote:Gwar and seattle cover it precisely, reread what they have said. Its not about what WBB says, its about what sweeping advance says.

To go into even more detail, its not what WBB says, it is what WBB doesn't say. WBB doesn't say it works against SA (Like ATSKNF does) so it doesn't. "It doesn't say I can't" is not a rules argument.

No. Necrons have been swept without WBB ever since their codex came out. They are not removed as casualties, rather that their whole unit ceases to exist in the game.

The only "gray" area is downed Necrons in the same unit, and those too get swept up and don't get to roll for WBB.

WWB did not work in 4th, neither rule changed in 5th.
Why would it work now?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:No. Necrons have been swept without WBB ever since their codex came out. They are not removed as casualties, rather that their whole unit ceases to exist in the game.

The only "gray" area is downed Necrons in the same unit, and those too get swept up and don't get to roll for WBB.

It doesn't say cease to exist anywhere. It actually and literally states that the unit is destroyed. If the unit counts as victory points and is counted as a casualty, then WBB are rolled as per the necron codex.

Definition in our shared dictionary= Casualty
# someone injured or killed or captured or missing in a military engagement
# fatal accident: an accident that causes someone to die
# a decrease of military personnel or equipment

Whatever was in 4 edition I guess is irrelevant now and rules I imagined have changed. Hence why we all use the 5 edition rulebook now and not the 4 edition one.

jspyd3rx wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:No. Necrons have been swept without WBB ever since their codex came out. They are not removed as casualties, rather that their whole unit ceases to exist in the game.

The only "gray" area is downed Necrons in the same unit, and those too get swept up and don't get to roll for WBB.

It doesn't say cease to exist anywhere. It actually and literally states that the unit is destroyed. If the unit counts as victory points and is counted as a casualty, then WBB are rolled as per the necron codex.

Definition in our shared dictionary= Casualty
# someone injured or killed or captured or missing in a military engagement
# fatal accident: an accident that causes someone to die
# a decrease of military personnel or equipment

40k != Real world. Live with it.

Sweeping Advance allows No special rule to save the model unless explicitly stated otherwise. Show me the explicit statement WBB, Please.


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jspyd3rx wrote:Whatever was in 4 edition I guess is irrelevant now and rules I imagined have changed. Hence why we all use the 5 edition rulebook now and not the 4 edition one.

So, you admit that WBB doesn't work then? Because under 5th edition rules, it doesn't. Coincidently, the wording is the exact same as 4th edition, but that doesn't matter.

It doesn't say "explicitly", it says "unless otherwise specified". I will and thank god my entire club now agrees it is specified in the necron codex since the unit is destroyed and does in fact count as a casualty and victory points.

jspyd3rx wrote:It doesn't say "explicitly", it says "unless otherwise specified". I will and thank god my entire club now agrees it is specified in the necron codex since the unit is destroyed and does in fact count as a casualty and victory points.

Congrats, your club are breaking the letter and spirit of the rules. Again, I ask you to please point out where it otherwise specifies that Sweeping Advance does not remove them. Or do you just ignore the part where it said "No Special Rule can save them"?

And if I may ask, why bother posting and asking for opinions if you are gonna turn around and say "Well, I don't care I play it like this."?

jspyd3rx wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:No. Necrons have been swept without WBB ever since their codex came out. They are not removed as casualties, rather that their whole unit ceases to exist in the game.

The only "gray" area is downed Necrons in the same unit, and those too get swept up and don't get to roll for WBB.

It doesn't say cease to exist anywhere. It actually and literally states that the unit is destroyed. If the unit counts as victory points and is counted as a casualty, then WBB are rolled as per the necron codex.

Definition in our shared dictionary= Casualty
# someone injured or killed or captured or missing in a military engagement
# fatal accident: an accident that causes someone to die
# a decrease of military personnel or equipment

Whatever was in 4 edition I guess is irrelevant now and rules I imagined have changed. Hence why we all use the 5 edition rulebook now and not the 4 edition one.

The rule:

The falling back unit is destroyed. [...] The destroyed unit is removed immediately.

Destroyed is close enough to "cease to exist". No where does it state to remove the swept models as casualties.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:No. Necrons have been swept without WBB ever since their codex came out. They are not removed as casualties, rather that their whole unit ceases to exist in the game.

The only "gray" area is downed Necrons in the same unit, and those too get swept up and don't get to roll for WBB.

It doesn't say cease to exist anywhere. It actually and literally states that the unit is destroyed. If the unit counts as victory points and is counted as a casualty, then WBB are rolled as per the necron codex.

Definition in our shared dictionary= Casualty
# someone injured or killed or captured or missing in a military engagement
# fatal accident: an accident that causes someone to die
# a decrease of military personnel or equipment

Whatever was in 4 edition I guess is irrelevant now and rules I imagined have changed. Hence why we all use the 5 edition rulebook now and not the 4 edition one.

The rule:

The falling back unit is destroyed. [...] The destroyed unit is removed immediately.

Destroyed is close enough to "cease to exist". No where does it state to remove the swept models as casualties.

If any unit in 40k is destroyed, killed, or otherwise removed from the game; it is a casualty as per the English definition of the word. I believe necrons are the only army that remain after they are destroyed or a casualty and laid down on their side until WBB rolls are made. This counts as "Unless otherwise specified", for that unit is considered a casualty. However a necron is squished or removed as a casualty; the codex says I get my WBB roll as long as similar buddies or tomb spyder are nearby. These count as "unless otherwise specified". I believe alot of players are holding on to old rules and doing their best to interpret to best suit their own needs. One of my best friends is an English teacher and I will ask him. It seems "Unless otherwise specified" really needs a faq note for necrons. Better yet, it seems I can email GW with rules questions. I will do that and if I am wrong. I will greenstuff a dress on one of my orks and play him. I will definetly post a pic of him or her in action.

jspyd3rx wrote:I believe alot of players are holding on to old rules and doing their best to interpret to best suit their own needs.

No, you are just trying to twist the rules to suit your needs.

Models are only ever removed as casualties in certain situations - usually shooting and assaults, and typically follows the rules on page 24. The phrase "remove as a casualty" isn't in the sweeping advance rules, so SA does not activate WBB.


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As a thought experiment, think of the Death or Glory rules. A Necron Lord who manages to pry the battlecannon off of a tank shocking Leman Russ would be "destroyed" by the Death or Glory rules. In the dictionary definition of casualty, one could say your Lord is a casualty and thus removed. Would you get your WBB roll?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Models are only ever removed as casualties in certain situations - usually shooting and assaults, and typically follows the rules on page 24. The phrase "remove as a casualty" isn't in the sweeping advance rules, so SA does not activate WBB.

Your right it doesn't. It says "the destroyed unit". If any unit in your army is killed through any number of heinous and creative ways; it is destroyed(killed, incapacitated) or simply put= removed from the game and the board in any phase or turn. Necrons get to stay on their sides until the end of the turn to see if they qualify for WBB rolls. Again, any unit destroyed or removed from your army is a casualty of war.

They are indeed a casualty of war, but they are not removed as casualties. That is an explicitly defined phrase and only applies when a rule says to remove as casualties.

So what about Models hit by a Raaaaagh! from the SAK? Wounded Models are just Removed, not taken as Casualties. Would you argue Necrons get to WBB from that too?

This is going nowhere. I just emailed GW in regards to this clarification. The email from the website is specifically for rule questions. So I imagine I will get a response eventually and post it here. Besides i still have 60 necrons to paint and I am procrastinating.

jspyd3rx wrote:This is going nowhere. I just emailed GW in regards to this clarification. The email from the website is specifically for rule questions. So I imagine I will get a response eventually and post it here. Besides i still have 60 necrons to paint and I am procrastinating.

Yes, because that is going to help. You email GW a Rules Question 4 times you will get 5 Different Answers, even if it is a yes or no question.

Again, why did you post here if you had no intention of listening to the advice and knowledge of others?

So, for example, I have 2 squads of Necron Warriors within 6' of eachother and 1 squad gets wiped by a sweeping advance the squad that got wiped by the sweeping advance CANNOT take WBB rolls to join the other necron squad standing next to it, correct?

Yes. The whole unit, and all models in it, is forever destroyed, as there is no specific immunity to sweeping advance in WBB.

To the OP:

Sorry, Dude, WBB does not save from Sweeping advance. The sweeping advance rule states that "no special rule" can save the sqaud at this point. WBB is definately a special rule.

Now, we all know that Codex>BRB, but that is only when the two actually disagree. In this case, for the Cron codex to >BRB, it would have to SPECIFCALLY state that WBB saves a unit from sweeping. Unfortunately, for NEcrons, their codex says no such thing, wherea the SMs have specific wording that keeps them from being swept.

This means that WBB deos not save a unit from sweeping advance. That is just the way the cookie crumbles.

SuperCow wrote:So, for example, I have 2 squads of Necron Warriors within 6' of eachother and 1 squad gets wiped by a sweeping advance the squad that got wiped by the sweeping advance CANNOT take WBB rolls to join the other necron squad standing next to it, correct?

This is 100% correct. Even if there is a Orb nearby, it doesn't help.

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:This is going nowhere. I just emailed GW in regards to this clarification. The email from the website is specifically for rule questions. So I imagine I will get a response eventually and post it here. Besides i still have 60 necrons to paint and I am procrastinating.

Yes, because that is going to help. You email GW a Rules Question 4 times you will get 5 Different Answers, even if it is a yes or no question.

Again, why did you post here if you had no intention of listening to the advice and knowledge of others?

Umm.. wouldn't a clarification from GW override whatever anyone has to say?

jspyd3rx wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:This is going nowhere. I just emailed GW in regards to this clarification. The email from the website is specifically for rule questions. So I imagine I will get a response eventually and post it here. Besides i still have 60 necrons to paint and I am procrastinating.

Yes, because that is going to help. You email GW a Rules Question 4 times you will get 5 Different Answers, even if it is a yes or no question.

Again, why did you post here if you had no intention of listening to the advice and knowledge of others?

Umm.. wouldn't a clarification from GW override whatever anyone has to say?

LOL...every rules clarification email from GW states that it is NOT an official ruling....

The actual RULEBOOK is very clear on this..you just seem to want to ignore what it says, in this case.

jspyd3rx wrote:Umm.. wouldn't a clarification from GW override whatever anyone has to say?

Who do you think answers the Rules Question emails? Jervis?

Lol

They are answered by Box Packers, with no more authority than you or me. I'd take Dakka's word over some random guy any day.

No. GW rules queries are not binding and are often contradictory.

Alerian wrote:LOL...every rules clarification email from GW states that it is NOT an official ruling....

The actual RULEBOOK is very clear on this..you just seem to want to ignore what it says, in this case.

Also this

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:Umm.. wouldn't a clarification from GW override whatever anyone has to say?

Who do you think answers the Rules Question emails? Jervis?

Lol

They are answered by Box Packers, with no more authority than you or me. I'd take Dakka's word over some random guy who can't get a real job any day.

Are you serious? I take it you have had experience with them before? Either way this is something I will definitely address with my opponents before play. I really need to drop this thread already I have too much to paint at moment. Thank God I have a second Ork army. Now I wonder about if the Deff rolla can be used against vehicles since ramming is a special kind of tank shock lol.

jspyd3rx wrote:Are you serious? I take it you have had experience with them before? Either way this is something I will definitely address with my opponents before play. I really need to drop this thread already I have too much to paint at moment. Thank God I have a second Ork army. Now I wonder about if the Deff rolla can be used against vehicles since ramming is a special kind of tank shock lol.

Yes I am 100% Serious.

jspyd3rx wrote:Are you serious? I take it you have had experience with them before? Either way this is something I will definitely address with my opponents before play. I really need to drop this thread already I have too much to paint at moment. Thank God I have a second Ork army. Now I wonder about if the Deff rolla can be used against vehicles since ramming is a special kind of tank shock lol.

Yes, he is serious, and yes, the rules guys are that rubbish. And no, whatever they say means precisely NOTHING to anyone - only FAQs mean something.

Simple way to deal: answer the following questions:

1) Is WBB a special rule? [to help: yes]
2) Does it specify that it works against Sweeping Advance? [No]
3) If a special rule does not specify it works against Sweeping Advance, does it work? [no]

Therefore, in conclusion, WBB is a special rule. It does not mention SA. IF you don't mention SA SA states you don't work. WBB doesn;'t work.

It is entirely irrelevant that WBB says to put models down, as SA states you cannot do so - you are attempting to save the unit when SA specifically states you cannot do so.

Really, it isn't anymore difficult than that. In 4th ed WBB was an EXAMPLE of a special rule that didn't work. In 5th ed they have removed the EXAMPLE, but not changed the rule. IF the rule is the same and it didnt work before, then it really, really doesnt work now....

The most likely reason they removed the example would be that they have major plans for WBB.

Aight my question for this resides as such;

Sweeping advance basically counts the unit as being destroyed with power weapons for the purpose of WBB. They get trampled to the point they can't reassemble. However, whats the rules regarding res orbs? rez orbs allow units to get back up when they normally could not, I.E. double toughness or power weapons. So does that allow for WBB for SA? Thats always bugged me and the cron players here always take WBB for SA if the orbs around (cuz Necron Lords get back up from everything)

Secondly, I was told that Crons new Codex they are taking away We'll be back and replacing it with Feel No Pain and some other changes to crons (likely adding invuns and stuff to lords, higher toughness, etc.)

Nothing about the new Necron codex is even close to confirmed.

The Orb says nothing about sweeping advance, so it offer no protection.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Nothing about the new Necron codex is even close to confirmed.

The Orb says nothing about sweeping advance, so it offer no protection.

bad ass, that means I can rock crons even harder

Zid wrote:Sweeping advance basically counts the unit as being destroyed with power weapons for the purpose of WBB.

This is false. While the two are similar in some ways, they are NOT the same. SA destroys a unit and forces it to be removed immediately. It also states that no special rule can save them from being removed immediately.

Power weapons do not cause these two effects.

I'm glad this got brought up, my buddy and I read the rules and it seemed obvious that when an entire unit is destroyed, it's destroyed. Mainly because WWB doesn't occur until the next turn. That was our logic.

Dracos wrote:

Zid wrote:Sweeping advance basically counts the unit as being destroyed with power weapons for the purpose of WBB.

This is false. While the two are similar in some ways, they are NOT the same. SA destroys a unit and forces it to be removed immediately. It also states that no special rule can save them from being removed immediately.

Power weapons do not cause these two effects.

I'll chime in here as well. SA destroys the Necron unit, same as a number of other armies. It doesn't matter how you try to frame it, look at BRB page 40 under sweeping advance and Necron codex page 13 under WBB. Bottom line, SA will destroy the entire Necron unit, even if models are down awaiting WBB and even if it includes a lord! That is why Necron armies avoid assault (if they're smart!) and why other armies try to get into assault against them.
@jspyd3rx-You just have to understand that this (vulnerable to SA) is a weakness in most armies. It doesn't mean they are always defeatable, it means you have to adjust your tactics to maximize the strengths of your army, and minimize it's weaknesses. The Necrons have a number of strengths that give them an incredible edge over many armies. Find them and use them. But understand that SA will destroy any unit. WBB is very powerful but it cannot override SA. This boils down to strategy, tactics and rules. Don't expect the rules to overcome a general's weakness in tactics or strategy, learn to use the rules to help them both. Hope I am not sounding too long winded here, I play SM and my friend plays Necrons. We are about even in W/L, because it comes down to strategy, tactics and some luck. Just like a real battle.
Time Wizard

Being new to posting don't shoot me down if i'm wrong,

1 Gwars post regarding box packers who cant get a real job is to say, a little nasty, I'm sure you meant it in away that they are only trying to answer the question as best they can "but it's not official". A jobs a job. respect them for what they do, is a street cleaner,dish washer or swim suit model a "real job" i'm sure they take alot less skill then your job, But One of them probably pays alot more.


2 I've build a necron/trynid army and play necrons "on occasion" , I was very interested in the out come of the post as I'm playing necrons in a tournament in a months time.
I agree with what you have said regarding this post "they don't get WWB's "of course i'd love it if they did"

Thanks

Oh jesus christ................. 'sighs'

Guys WBB CAN work in this instance because there is no conflict with Sweeping Advance.

You guys are gonna go WTF on me, but hear me out...

First, lets look at what's really happening here with the unit being wiped out and then WBB activating.

The Unit is, of course, wiped out.

As in dead.

Gone.

Caput.

Sweeping Advance pg. 40 "the destroyed UNIT is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over"

Sweeping Advance smiles because nothing saved the unit- no armor saves, invulnerable, feel no pain, etc.- and all goes well. There's nothing in base anymore. The assault is ended. A victory point is possibly collected for kicking some can (annihilation anyone?) and someone happily consolidates elsewhere.

However, WBB can ( as in a possibility --not: Hey I'm Jesus and this is MY word) activate here under a few different auspices

(1) Because WBB doesn't deal with a UNIT swept... it deals with MODELS, therefore WBB tosses the models downed on their side.

(2) WBB is not counted as a save or special rule of any sort that would rescue the unit and therefore ignores any rule saying 'na na na you can't have any save'. This is supported by the fact that the models and unit involved ACTUALLY died and would otherwise be removed were it not for WBB. They give off kill points, they're guaranteed to not rejoin the unit they came from in the first place in this instance since it’s gone, etc…

The unit was definitely nuked, the point for it was even awarded, and IT is not coming back.

The MODELS however remain and travel elsewhere to join other separate units. This isn't quibbling it's reading the exact rules from both books.

Necron P. 13
"Any Necron MODEL that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be REMOVED as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged"


If you guys actually want to look at this and insist that the specific extra mention of the words 'as a casualty' means WBB doesn't count towards anything other than .. hell.. I don't know casualties from regular shooting and assault... then that's just how you guys are going to be. I can't change your minds.

However, I'd just like to ask where else in the entire regular rulebook you can look up the words 'remove them as a casualty' so we can ALL know exactly when something is being removed 'as a casualty' versus being 'removed'

*insert [ shaming/smug look over the top of his glasses]*

While you're at it maybe you can explain to me why they even BOTHERED mentioning a model 'being otherwise removed as a casualty' if in fact, the only way for a model to be 'removed as a casualty' in the first place is for it to be reduced to 0 wounds.

That’s like saying: “ BTW do WBB when a model is reduced to 0 wounds and oh yeah… when it’s reduced to 0 wounds. Glad we got that covered. La la la”

Does No One notice this?

As for the other 'thought experiment' brought up before-- Death Or Glory, let's explore that in this context.

Death or Glory--failure p. 69
"the model is removed regardless of wounds, saves, or any other clever way of staying alive they can think of"

Really, once again this brings us back to the issues of (1) Is WBB a save or not per the model and (2) Will this count towards WBB’s “otherwise removed as a casualty”

If you’re going to be ridiculous in the above you sure as hell are going to be silly here.

Just remember if you’re saying no to WBB because “it’s not being remove as a casualty”

You ABSOLUTELY are saying that….

“WBB triggers when you’re reduced to 0 wounds and also when you’re reduced to 0 wounds”

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Because of this debate, and the confusing notions involved, this is why I said it CAN WBB not necessarily DOES. I could be wrong.

After all this is GW (Valkyrie and deployment rules anyone?). If I am—be advised—the world is soon to end, lol.


Edited for Spelling... probably going to need more of it too

The Dragon wrote:(2) WBB is not counted as a save or special rule of any sort that would rescue the unit and therefore ignores any rule saying 'na na na you can't have any save'. This is supported by the fact that the models and unit involved ACTUALLY died and would otherwise be removed were it not for WBB. They give off kill points, they're guaranteed to not rejoin the unit they came from in the first place in this instance since it’s gone, etc…

WBB is a special rule.

Yes, but I think you are all ignoring the giant flashing neon light.

WBB DOES NOT SAVE THE UNIT

The unit is gone, irrecoverable. Sweeping is satisfied.

That simple.

I said it ignores anything to do with Sweeping because of that.

WBB is a special rule for individual necron models and the only real debate here is whether or not in the context of 'the unit is removed' via sweeping they actually hit their sides or not.

You see, because there's a question on whether or not Sweeping removal is the same as "would otherwise be removed as a casuality' removal as mentioned in the necron codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
God, I hope that made sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh ho ho, I see no one wants to step up and answer any of MY questions, lol.

But seriously, someone--anyone-- come on tell me where exactly "removed as casualties" comes into play? We've got plenty of Cron players waiting to know.

We'll Be Back is a special rule.

We'll Be Back tells you that instead of removing a model you place it on its side.

The SA rule tells you the unit must be removed immediately.

The SA rule tells you no special rules can save/rescue/prevent it from being removed immediately.

We'll Be Back does not have a statement exempting it from SA.

Therefore, We'll Be Back has no effect on a unit suffering a SA.

ehhh.. once again No.

(1) WBB is a special rule

(2) WBB does put a MODEL on its side once it's dead

(3) SA does say remove the unit-- which triggers WBB referring to individual models stating that whenever a MODEL would be removed as a casualty turn it on its side instead.

(4) WBB doesn't save the unit at all. Under WBB rules the UNIT is dead and gone, never to return. I'm failing to see where you're taking this.

(5) WBB specifically states whenever a model would be removed as a casualty INSTEAD it's turned on its side. SA removes the units the models are in, thus necessitating the removal of the models as casualties THUS triggering WBB. It's the same story again and again -- TELL ME WHY WBB 'Removal Clause' DOESN'T WORK WITH SA other than that 'you say so'-- Codex Trumps, Codex makes sense, your statement carries no logic.

(6) WBB doesn't do ANYTHING to a unit that's swept at all. It pertains to individual models that were in a unit that happened to BE sweeped. It does not prevent sweeping or the destruction of the unit in any way.

Therefore, WBB still works on models that were in a swept unit.

You have still failed to answer ANY of my questions.

BTW, the rules-- explicitly-- state only pg.40 "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

This is EXACTLY when the WBB "or otherwise removed as a casualty' clause is meant to come into play.

The Dragon wrote:
(1) WBB is a special rule

Got that one right.

(2) WBB does put a MODEL on its side once it's dead

When it would otherwise be removed as a casualty, but otherwise correct.

(3) SA does say remove the unit-- which triggers WBB referring to individual models stating that whenever a MODEL would be removed as a casualty turn it on its side instead.

While it is true that that WBB special rule wants to trigger, it is unable to. The unit must be removed immediately. If you use WBB to lay the models on their side, you are not satisfying the requirement of SA to remove the unit. SA tells you to ignore special rules trying to stop the unit (and therefore, the models in the unit) from being removed unless the special rule tell you to ignore SA.

(4) WBB doesn't save the unit at all. Under WBB rules the UNIT is dead and gone, never to return. I'm failing to see where you're taking this.

WBB attempts to prevent (and thus save) the models in the unit from being removed. Arguing that you are only saving parts of the unit is irrelevent, as the whole unit must be removed. Removing parts of the unit does not satisfy SA.

(5) WBB specifically states whenever a model would be removed as a casualty INSTEAD it's turned on its side. SA removes the units the models are in, thus necessitating the removal of the models as casualties THUS triggering WBB. It's the same story again and again -- TELL ME WHY WBB 'Removal Clause' DOESN'T WORK WITH SA other than that 'you say so'-- Codex Trumps, Codex makes sense, your statement carries no logic.

Well the wording in the BGB only says destroyed and removed immediately, not as a casualty. FYI saying codex trumps rulebooks is a gross oversimplification. Its more like : Follow all rules at all times. If you are forced to take two contradictory courses of action, follow the more specific rule.

(6) WBB doesn't do ANYTHING to a unit that's swept at all. It pertains to individual models that were in a unit that happened to BE sweeped. It does not prevent sweeping or the destruction of the unit in any way.

Affecting parts of a unit does in fact mean you are affecting the unit. You are right, it does not prevent the sweeping or destruction of the unit in any way. It would need to specify differently in order to stop SA.

Draco...

you still never answered the BIG question which would pin this or not. Why does WBB not activate for SA.

Your entire point relies on this:
"Well the wording in the BGB only says destroyed and removed immediately, not as a casualty"

I asked you, separately from the issues of SA, what the feth does the WBB mention of 'when otherwise removed as a casualty' mean AT ALL if not in the context of when models would be removed directly as opposed from taking wounds.

THIS IS that situation.

WBB work in 2 ways.

When a model would be reduced to 0 wounds or would otherwise be removed as a casualty.

You still haven't pointed out any option from any other weapons from any other race at all you and your ilk would ACTUALLY give Necron players their WBB on.

It has to mean something so what is? I think it's pretty fething obvious it means flat out when a model would be 'removed' from anything other than being reduced to 0 wounds.

Throw me a bone here. You're giving me nothing.

You are completely missing the point here.

WBB is a special rule. Special rules can't stop models from being removed from SA unless that special rule specifically states that it can.

Changing the part of SA where you are supposed to remove the models (as casualties or not is really irrelevant) and instead lay them on their side is where you are going wrong.

WBB can't prevent SA from removing the unit - and therefore the models in the unit, because it does not say specifically that it can.

Okay this getting ridiculous.

That's like saying ...

There's a unit that has a special charge bonus that in its rules specifically states it never loses the bonus-- no matter what.

And then it charges another unit that says who ever charges it loses all bonuses, unless otherwise specified

You're saying the unit with the special rule loses its bonus because it did not specifically- in NAME- mention the unit that makes people lose their charging bonus.

You're simply choosing one side over the other to your preference.

Plus.. Draco. .you STILL haven't given me (1) one, (uno) example of a single instance of "or otherwise removed as a casualty" for WBB to work.

I'm still waiting on that...

Moving on...

You say this "WBB is a special rule. Special rules can't stop models from being removed from SA unless that special rule specifically states that it can." -- but that isn't true. It does not say it has to Explicitly mention SA at all. It says this

'The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage'

That means the special rule has to specify that it prevents things from being removed from the table--which WBB does.

Again, the only 'defense' for WBB not working against SA is if "otherwise removed as a casualty" does not refer to it. No one can decide THAT since not one fething person has taken the time to explain what the hell that even means.

The question stands

Wasn't the necron codex written for 3rd edition? Looking in the current BGB maybe that's why you can't find what the Necron rule is referencing with that?

Regardless, your argument is completely irrelevant. No special rule can rescue the unit. WBB is a special rule. Read further. For them the battle is over, they can take no further part.

WBB, a special rule, can't stop SA because it does not say it can. It is a special rule that gets stopped because SA says it stops special rules. It's actually pretty clear cut here.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Models that are swept are not removed as casualties, they are destroyed. Removing casualties is defined situation on page 24, and it only happens when specified, such as shooting and assaulting.

You can not say that WBB activates because WBB is triggered only by removing final wounds and removing as a casualty. SA specifies neither.

Would you say that Necrons can get up after being subject to Death or Glory? Any model that does there is also destroyed and no special rule can save them there, either.

Thank you god Master Slowpoke for a lead...give me a minute to skip on over to pg. 24

*reading*


p. 24 "Note that any model in the target unit can be hit, wounded and taken off as a casualty, even models that are completely out of sight or range of all the firers"
...
"Casualties are not necessarily dead--they may be merely knocked unconscious, too injured to carry on fighting or incapacitated in other some way. In an case, they are no longer fit to participate in the battle"

... that's all it says. Masterslowpoke ... this didn't really define .. at all what a casualty is. In fact the only thing this described at all was the concept behind units taking wounds even when only 1 person is visible to enemy fire.

there is no discernible difference in RAW whatsoever between saying something is a casualty or destroyed.

"Models that are swept are not removed as casualties, they are destroyed. Removing casualties is defined situation on page 24, and it only happens when specified, such as shooting and assaulting."

uh, it doesn't say that all. While it does say they're 'destroyed' --that's a general term meaning dead, not a specific different type of dead from any other sort.

While I agree the removing of casualties is 'described' here this is not the sole and only definition for when it occurs. Afterall, if that's the case- then casualties are never taken in assault phase AT ALL.. afterall all they're not described here in any way and thus I guess they never occur. Only 'casualties' from being shot at are here. Does that mean that any and all wounds taking models down in assault means they are 'destroyed' here then instead?

No.. of course it doesn't. BTW... how can everybody assume nothing will ever save in any degree or fashion a unit from being swept when in fact the SA rules leave an opening for them?

"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

This means that if a rule DOES specify it can save them or something in that stage it can.

BTW did you realize how crazy this statement sounds if you take it to its logical conclusion "WBB is triggered only by removing final wounds and removing as a casualty"

Yeah... you're basically saying the exact same thing I commented on earlier! You're saying WBB works when your wounds are reduced to 0 by shooting/ assault and ALSO when your wounds are reduced to ) by shooting/Assault.

If you insist on the rules as you suggested them... then then WBB is simply repeating itself.

"or otherwise removed as a casualty" does not mean from simple assault/shooting. That's covered under being reduced to 0 wounds.

It has to mean something effective so what is it? Does it mean it puts the ixnay on the Eldar gun which just removes something from play? How about the Ork or Chaos options which remove models from play and puts something else in instead.

It has to do something effective- so what is it?







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Anyways I've gotta bug out. When I check this again... aside from the WBB dealing with SA can someone please figure what the hell the "otherwise removed as a casualty" means.

A plausible one would be great.

I figure worst case we can blame Canada.
Sorry Maples you're just too convenient and we know you don't fight back.


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whoops just noticed Draco is from ...er.. yeah.. well gotta go, bye

There can be situations when you explicitly remove casualties other than shooting or assaulting, and that is why that extra line is in the WBB roll. It's just that I can't think of any at the moment. I'm sure there are some psychic powers and such that do it.

While I agree the removing of casualties is 'described' here this is not the sole and only definition for when it occurs. Afterall, if that's the case- then casualties are never taken in assault phase AT ALL.. afterall all they're not described here in any way and thus I guess they never occur. Only 'casualties' from being shot at are here. Does that mean that any and all wounds taking models down in assault means they are 'destroyed' here then instead?

One of the steps in combat resolution is to remove casualties, which refers back to page 24.

Again, models are only removed as casualties when it says to remove as casualties.

The Dragon wrote:...
"Casualties are not necessarily dead--they may be merely knocked unconscious, too injured to carry on fighting or incapacitated in other some way. In an case, they are no longer fit to participate in the battle"

... that's all it says. Masterslowpoke ...

I think you deliberately left a bit out about sweeping advance that you didn't want others to see:

"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

Now would you agree WBB is a special rule. Check
When a sweeping advance is made, does WBB specifically state it may be taken in the case of a sweeping advance. NO

That's where this whole argument falls apart. ONLY when a special rules states it overrides sweeping advances does it actually work. If not then they are destroyed.

Case closed.

The Dragon wrote: WBB is a special rule for individual necron models and the only real debate here is whether or not in the context of 'the unit is removed' via sweeping they actually hit their sides or not.

Ahaa... so then any Necron unit that teleports through the Monolith for a second chance at WBB don't actually let the downed models test again? They're just models, not the unit.

Oops, I misread one of your posts Dragon...Will amend my argument now.

The whole "specifying" argument basically means a special rule has to specifically state that it can save a unit from a sweeping advance. WBB doesn't say anything about sweeping advances, so therefore doesn't trigger.

If we followed your wording armour saves, invulnerable saves and feel no pain saves could be taken since they prevent casualty removal. Do you allow them to be taken when a unit is swept? Thought not. So like I said, A special rule or save has to explicitly express that it activates against sweeping advances for it to take effect.

Dracos: Right
The Dragon: Wrong.

I wonder if anyone even has the codex or plays necrons. Just for the record, the BRB states that whenever a model is brought down to zero wounds or dispatched in any creative or humorous way it is removed from the game; just like SA states. With that in mind, necrons shouldn't even be allowed to WBB. SA staes that a DESTROYED unit is removed from the game; just like any other instance of death and destruction. For necrons the unit is always counted as gone when killed, they don't exist anymore. WBB comes into effect and the end of the turn, after all that could possibly be done has been done. This counts towards phase out. If a swept unit brings the crons to 25% or less phase out occurs immediately, this actually applies in all instances of death, destruction and any way in which a necron is removed from the game. If they don't fall to 25% percent then they have a chance to come back after being destroyed, though the downed necrons still count as victory points or deaths or casualties. Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

jspyd3rx wrote:Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

Yes, it does, so it doesn't work.

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

Yes, it does, so it doesn't work.

Yet the codex states that when a model is destroyed or removed as a casualty it is laid on its' side. For all game purposes, the model no longer exist; it is gone. If certain criteria is met, then a WBB roll is made to see if the model can return to the game.

jspyd3rx wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

Yes, it does, so it doesn't work.

Yet the codex states that when a model is destroyed or removed as a casualty it is laid on its' side. For all game purposes, the model no longer exist; it is gone. If certain criteria is met, then a WBB roll is made to see if the model can return to the game.

Which is a roundabout way of saving themselves from Sweeping Advance. It doesn't matter that it is directly done, the fact it is done at all means it counts as a special rule that would save them from Sweeping Advance. Because WBB doesn't mention Sweeping Advance, it cannot help them.

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

Yes, it does, so it doesn't work.

Yet the codex states that when a model is destroyed or removed as a casualty it is laid on its' side. For all game purposes, the model no longer exist; it is gone. If certain criteria is met, then a WBB roll is made to see if the model can return to the game.

Which is a roundabout way of saving themselves from Sweeping Advance. It doesn't matter that it is directly done, the fact it is done at all means it counts as a special rule that would save them from Sweeping Advance. Because WBB doesn't mention Sweeping Advance, it cannot help them.

They are NOT saved. Just like any other instance. When they should be removed (like every other model whenever they are destroyed for any reason) from the game because they are a casualty, they are the only ones laid on their side. The opponent has successfully removed the model from the game. WBB does not save or prevent a model in any way, shape or form being dispatched through any mischievous way. It merely allows the model a chance of coming back into the game. The BRB states very clearly that any model reduced to 0 wounds or removed as a casualty for any reason must be removed from the game(the model as well). This does apply to necrons as well. Yet the model is instead left as a marker on the game board to see if it has a chance at a WBB roll. This is the "unless otherwise specified". The model is not removed, but it is destroyed.

Yes, and you did read the Sweeping Advance Rule that says "For them the Battle is over". Therefore, no putting on its side, no leaving a marker, it's just removed. End of.

In short, your entire argument is "I will ignore part of the rule to suit my own needs".

jspyd3rx wrote:WBB comes into effect and the end of the turn, after all that could possibly be done has been done. This counts towards phase out. If a swept unit brings the crons to 25% or less phase out occurs immediately, this actually applies in all instances of death, destruction and any way in which a necron is removed from the game. If they don't fall to 25% percent then they have a chance to come back after being destroyed, though the downed necrons still count as victory points or deaths or casualties. Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

WBB takes place at the start of every necron turn, not at the end of the turn.
Phase out is checked after making all WBB rolls.
And I agree that WBB cannot save the unit from a SA. In that case the necron unit is destroyed.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, and you did read the Sweeping Advance Rule that says "For them the Battle is over". Therefore, no putting on its side, no leaving a marker, it's just removed. End of.

In short, your entire argument is "I will ignore part of the rule to suit my own needs".

You my dear friend (which I am growing to love to hate), are missing the point that when a necron goes down for any reason; the battle is always over for them. WBB comes into affect after that. You are definitely ignoring that plain and simple rule.
Your "I will ignore part of the rule to suit my own needs" that you keep bringing up is exactly what you are doing. Also, that other poster was right about disrespecting the person's job it is to answer rules question. It would be the same argument at a tourney and should be respected. If they say I am wrong; then so be it and will concede. All of us here are just forum posters and they get paid to interpret what we may fail to understand. We should respect all, just as we should be respected as well.

What part of removing the whole unit is too difficult? Whole unit = all models, be they standing up or not.

Person who's name is total Gibberish:
Yes, it comes into effect after, and will save the models, which Sweeping Advance Explicitly forbids.

How is this hard to understand?

Gwar:

For the record, the guy(s) who do the rules interpetations are not "lowly" box packers. While at one time some of them may have worked in a different part of the company, even then, it does not mean they do not have an excellent grasp of the rules. I'm sorry if you think working hard in a shipping position is beneath you. Perhaps you would like to tell us here what you do for a living?

In the past, you would get different interpetations of rules, for many reasons. Something that happened one time is that someone called up and ask if a guardsmen with a plasmagun gets an overheat and fails its save, does it die instantly? The answer was yes, though it would get FNP etc. The questioner then went and posted online that the GW rulesboyz are dumb because they said you get Instant Death from overheating plasma.

Other times people would phrase their question to get the answer they wanted....Can a model off the table affect a unit on the table? No unless they have a rule that specifically says they can. The questioner then goes back and says the GW guys say you can't tank shock from reserves.

And yes, sometimes a question was answered incorrectly for various reasons. These games are complex, and no one can know where every rule or special rule is located. Sometimes a small, obscure rule is changed, and no one notices it for a long time. For example, I just found out a unit can assault the unit in a vehicle it just destroyed....and that dreadnought close combat weapons only do 1d6 armor penetration.

For now, there is only person answering rules, and I would wager that his knowledge of the game dwarfs yours Gwar. By a long shot. 10+ years of playing GW games weekly, if I recall. And there's no one I would want to watch my back in a dark alley in the worst neighborhood in the city....

time wizard wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:WBB comes into effect and the end of the turn, after all that could possibly be done has been done. This counts towards phase out. If a swept unit brings the crons to 25% or less phase out occurs immediately, this actually applies in all instances of death, destruction and any way in which a necron is removed from the game. If they don't fall to 25% percent then they have a chance to come back after being destroyed, though the downed necrons still count as victory points or deaths or casualties. Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

WBB takes place at the start of every necron turn, not at the end of the turn.
Phase out is checked after making all WBB rolls.
And I agree that WBB cannot save the unit from a SA. In that case the necron unit is destroyed.

Opps, you are right about all of it. lol. Need to remember to check books before posting. Now, what happens to any model that is destroyed? It is removed from the game. Are necrons removed when they are destroyed? No, they are not and are instead laid on their side. Does SA destroy the remainder of the unit? Yes it does. Is the unit removed from the game and counted as destroyed? Yep. Does the BRB state that a model must be removed when destroyed? Yep. SA destroys the unit and is counted as a casualty? Yes. Does the necron codex say that if a model is removed as a casualty it is laid on its' side to see if it qualifies for its' WBB roll? Yep; page 13 first paragraph.

jspyd3rx wrote: when a necron goes down for any reason; the battle is always over for them.

The battle is not over for them yet, they are laid on their sides to show they are damaged.

jspyd3rx wrote:WBB comes into affect after that.

After they are damaged, yes. After they are removed, no.

jspyd3rx wrote:You are definitely ignoring that plain and simple rule.

WBB is neither plain nor simple, hence these rules discussions.
In the case of SA you must remember the term 'unit'. Necrons that are down are still part of their unit.
Necron codex, monolith, last paragraph says that any necrons in the unit that failed their WBB roll may re-roll as they emerge from the portal (rule paraphrased). The damaged necrons cannot teleport by themselves, the unit they are with teleports bringing the damaged necrons with them. They are still part of the unit.
Necron FAQ, if a necron unit has models capable of self repair and the unit must make a fall back move, the damaged necrons are moved with the unit. Again, they are still part of the unit.
If a unit suffers SA, the unit is destroyed. The entire unit. All the necrons who are unwounded, along with any models who were down awaiting WBB.
If you try to say that downed (damaged) necrons are not part of the unit, then necrons would never have to take any morale checks because the downed necrons would not count as members of the unit, and therefore the 'unit' would never be able to suffer any wounds, and that's not the way it works.

KeithGatchalian wrote:

Gwar:

For the record, the guy(s) who do the rules interpetations are not "lowly" box packers. While at one time some of them may have worked in a different part of the company, even then, it does not mean they do not have an excellent grasp of the rules. I'm sorry if you think working hard in a shipping position is beneath you. Perhaps you would like to tell us here what you do for a living?

In the past, you would get different interpetations of rules, for many reasons. Something that happened one time is that someone called up and ask if a guardsmen with a plasmagun gets an overheat and fails its save, does it die instantly? The answer was yes, though it would get FNP etc. The questioner then went and posted online that the GW rulesboyz are dumb because they said you get Instant Death from overheating plasma.

Other times people would phrase their question to get the answer they wanted....Can a model off the table affect a unit on the table? No unless they have a rule that specifically says they can. The questioner then goes back and says the GW guys say you can't tank shock from reserves.

And yes, sometimes a question was answered incorrectly for various reasons. These games are complex, and no one can know where every rule or special rule is located. Sometimes a small, obscure rule is changed, and no one notices it for a long time. For example, I just found out a unit can assault the unit in a vehicle it just destroyed....and that dreadnought close combat weapons only do 1d6 armor penetration.

For now, there is only person answering rules, and I would wager that his knowledge of the game dwarfs yours Gwar. By a long shot. 10+ years of playing GW games weekly, if I recall. And there's no one I would want to watch my back in a dark alley in the worst neighborhood in the city....

Wow, put very well. I know I wouldn't be wanted to be disrespected for providing for my family. Regardless of whatever job it was.

jspyd3rx wrote:SA destroys the unit and is counted as a casualty? Yes.

No, it doesn't. I suggest you take your own advice and read the books before posting.

KeithGatchalian wrote:For now, there is only person answering rules, and I would wager that his knowledge of the game dwarfs yours Gwar. By a long shot. 10+ years of playing GW games weekly, if I recall. And there's no one I would want to watch my back in a dark alley in the worst neighborhood in the city....

I have 11+ Years of Playing games weekly oh snap!

Hey, what's with all the personal attacks now? Is this some sort of subtle diversion from the fact you are incorrect?

time wizard wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote: when a necron goes down for any reason; the battle is always over for them.

The battle is not over for them yet, they are laid on their sides to show they are damaged.

jspyd3rx wrote:WBB comes into affect after that.

After they are damaged, yes. After they are removed, no.

jspyd3rx wrote:You are definitely ignoring that plain and simple rule.

WBB is neither plain nor simple, hence these rules discussions.
In the case of SA you must remember the term 'unit'. Necrons that are down are still part of their unit.
Necron codex, monolith, last paragraph says that any necrons in the unit that failed their WBB roll may re-roll as they emerge from the portal (rule paraphrased). The damaged necrons cannot teleport by themselves, the unit they are with teleports bringing the damaged necrons with them. They are still part of the unit.
Necron FAQ, if a necron unit has models capable of self repair and the unit must make a fall back move, the damaged necrons are moved with the unit. Again, they are still part of the unit.
If a unit suffers SA, the unit is destroyed. The entire unit. All the necrons who are unwounded, along with any models who were down awaiting WBB.
If you try to say that downed (damaged) necrons are not part of the unit, then necrons would never have to take any morale checks because the downed necrons would not count as members of the unit, and therefore the 'unit' would never be able to suffer any wounds, and that's not the way it works.

They are part of the unit for purposes of falling back. The codex also states that "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether units can self-repair, and so on - they are debris only".
So if they can ignore rules for unit coherency, then why do they fall back with the unit? Weird.


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Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:SA destroys the unit and is counted as a casualty? Yes.

No, it doesn't. I suggest you take your own advice and read the books before posting.

KeithGatchalian wrote:For now, there is only person answering rules, and I would wager that his knowledge of the game dwarfs yours Gwar. By a long shot. 10+ years of playing GW games weekly, if I recall. And there's no one I would want to watch my back in a dark alley in the worst neighborhood in the city....

I have 11+ Years of Playing games weekly oh snap!

Hey, what's with all the personal attacks now? Is this some sort of subtle diversion from the fact you are incorrect?

No, I doubt it. You did insult whoever's job it is to answer questions by calling them box packers. Regardless of how long you are playing, I will take their interpretation of any rules over anyone on a forum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jspyd3rx wrote:SA destroys the unit and is counted as a casualty? Yes.

No, it doesn't. I suggest you take your own advice and read the books before posting.

Page 40 of BRB states in first bullet point that the unit is destroyed. Now is a destroyed unit count as a casualty?

The Dragon wrote:Yes, but I think you are all ignoring the giant flashing neon light.

WBB DOES NOT SAVE THE UNIT

The unit is gone, irrecoverable. Sweeping is satisfied.

That simple.

I said it ignores anything to do with Sweeping because of that.

WBB is a special rule for individual necron models and the only real debate here is whether or not in the context of 'the unit is removed' via sweeping they actually hit their sides or not.

You see, because there's a question on whether or not Sweeping removal is the same as "would otherwise be removed as a casuality' removal as mentioned in the necron codex.


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God, I hope that made sense.


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oh ho ho, I see no one wants to step up and answer any of MY questions, lol.

But seriously, someone--anyone-- come on tell me where exactly "removed as casualties" comes into play? We've got plenty of Cron players waiting to know.

How would you handle teleporting through the monolith for a second wbb roll? Any model that is eligible for a wbb roll is eligible to be 'ported through a monolith for a second wbb roll.

Would you not need a rez orb nearby to get a wbb roll? How would this interact with that? Is sweeping advance a 'cc attack' that doesn't allow an armor save, or save at all?

jspyd3rx wrote: They are part of the unit for purposes of falling back. The codex also states that "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether units can self-repair, and so on - they are debris only".
So if they can ignore rules for unit coherency, then why do they fall back with the unit? Weird.

Again, a poorly worded codex entry.
Do downed necrons count towards 25% loses for morale checks? Yes they do.
Do downed necrons wounds count towards combat resluts? Absolutely.
So in at least these instances, the nocrons are not ignored, they are part of a unit, count as being with the unit, and since they must fall back with the unit, they are a part of it. If the unit suffers SA, the unit is destroyed. Not wounded or damaged, they are destroyed.
If, on the other hand, the necron unit is reduced to no members in the shooting phase, they may be able to WBB if there is another unit within the allowed distance. If they pass WBB, they join that unit. Only at that point have they left their original unit and joined a new one.
You can't say they are no longer part of a unit the moment they are damaged. There are a number of rules that prove that quite the opposite is true.
And no matter how you slice it, when a unit is destroyed in SA, the entire unit is destroyed, unless in their codex or the BRB the is a line that says, "The unit is not destroyed by SA but rather..." And that is not the case for WBB.

jspyd3rx wrote:Page 40 of BRB states in first bullet point that the unit is destroyed. Now is a destroyed unit count as a casualty?

No, not necessarily. For it to be counted as a casualty, it has to specifically state it is a casualty.


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jspyd3rx wrote:No, I doubt it. You did insult whoever's job it is to answer questions by calling them box packers. Regardless of how long you are playing, I will take their interpretation of any rules over anyone on a forum.

You do know their job is NOT to answer rules questions? It's to pack boxes, and they answer Questions in their spare time.

imweasel wrote:

The Dragon wrote:Yes, but I think you are all ignoring the giant flashing neon light.

WBB DOES NOT SAVE THE UNIT

The unit is gone, irrecoverable. Sweeping is satisfied.

That simple.

I said it ignores anything to do with Sweeping because of that.

WBB is a special rule for individual necron models and the only real debate here is whether or not in the context of 'the unit is removed' via sweeping they actually hit their sides or not.

You see, because there's a question on whether or not Sweeping removal is the same as "would otherwise be removed as a casuality' removal as mentioned in the necron codex.


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God, I hope that made sense.


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oh ho ho, I see no one wants to step up and answer any of MY questions, lol.

But seriously, someone--anyone-- come on tell me where exactly "removed as casualties" comes into play? We've got plenty of Cron players waiting to know.

How would you handle teleporting through the monolith for a second wbb roll? Any model that is eligible for a wbb roll is eligible to be 'ported through a monolith for a second wbb roll.

Would you not need a rez orb nearby to get a wbb roll? How would this interact with that? Is sweeping advance a 'cc attack' that doesn't allow an armor save, or save at all?

Is SA a close combat weapon that doesn't allow armor save? It doesn't allow armor save, but it isn't a close combat weapon. It is a maneuver. Necrons are always counted as casualties when removed from the game for any number of reasons, just like any other model. They just get a chance of coming back into the game. Hence the term WBB. The model is merely a marker on the map for purposes of coming back.

What on Earth are you taking about? They do NOT get a chance to come back, because SA says they do not.

jspyd3rx wrote:Necrons are always counted as casualties when removed from the game for any number of reasons, just like any other model.

Please quote that rule.

time wizard wrote:You can't say they are no longer part of a unit the moment they are damaged. There are a number of rules that prove that quite the opposite is true.

Such as the Monolith, perhaps? Teleporting a "unit" through it to get a second chance at WBB would be quite pointless if the downed Necrons aren't part of the unit.

Gwar! wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:Page 40 of BRB states in first bullet point that the unit is destroyed. Now is a destroyed unit count as a casualty?

No, not necessarily. For it to be counted as a casualty, it has to specifically state it is a casualty.


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jspyd3rx wrote:No, I doubt it. You did insult whoever's job it is to answer questions by calling them box packers. Regardless of how long you are playing, I will take their interpretation of any rules over anyone on a forum.

You do know their job is NOT to answer rules questions? It's to pack boxes, and they answer Questions in their spare time.

Sorry, but that just seems wrong. I can't tell if you are being serious or insulting by saying that. But, I guess we will find out when they answer.

jspyd3rx wrote:Sorry, but that just seems wrong. I can't tell if you are being serious or insulting by saying that. But, I guess we will find out when they answer.

"Just seems wrong?" I am not being insulting, I am being Honest. Of course it seems people here tend to mistake being honest with being rude. -Shrug-

I notice you refuse to answer Dracos's Question.

imweasel wrote: How would you handle teleporting through the monolith for a second wbb roll? Any model that is eligible for a wbb roll is eligible to be 'ported through a monolith for a second wbb roll.

Not any model. A unit may teleport through the monolith, not individual models.

imweasel wrote:Would you not need a rez orb nearby to get a wbb roll?

Only in certain instances.

imweasel wrote:How would this interact with that?

You need to re-read pages 13, 15 and 21 of codex necrons. That covers WBB, res orb, and teleporting through monoliths.

imweasel wrote:Is sweeping advance a 'cc attack' that doesn't allow an armor save, or save at all?

No, sweeping advance is not a cc attack, it follows a failed morale test, that occurs after all attacks have been made and resolved.


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Spetulhu wrote:

time wizard wrote:You can't say they are no longer part of a unit the moment they are damaged. There are a number of rules that prove that quite the opposite is true.

Such as the Monolith, perhaps? Teleporting a "unit" through it to get a second chance at WBB would be quite pointless if the downed Necrons aren't part of the unit.

Absolutely, I brought that point up in an earlier reply.

time wizard wrote: Necron codex, monolith, last paragraph says that any necrons in the unit that failed their WBB roll may re-roll as they emerge from the portal (rule paraphrased). The damaged necrons cannot teleport by themselves, the unit they are with teleports bringing the damaged necrons with them. They are still part of the unit.

Dracos wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote:Necrons are always counted as casualties when removed from the game for any number of reasons, just like any other model.

Please quote that rule.

Page 24 under remove casualties. Also states in last paragraph " Casualties are not necessarily dead - they may be merely knocked unconscious, too injured to carry on fighting or incapacitated in other some way. In any way, they are no longer fit to participate in the battle". One of the criteria for WBB roll is if the model or unit counts a casualty (page 13, first sentence necron codex). SA destroys the unit and it does count as a casualty under the English definition of the word "casualty".

I missed the rule in your post that states that all models that are removed for any reason count as casualties. Can you please quote it?

Dracos wrote:I missed the rule in your post that states that all models that are removed for any reason count as casualties. Can you please quote it?

I too would like to see this rule.


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jspyd3rx wrote:SA destroys the unit and it does count as a casualty under the English definition of the word "casualty".

No, Destroyed and "Casualty" are two very different words.

Gwar! wrote:

Dracos wrote:I missed the rule in your post that states that all models that are removed for any reason count as casualties. Can you please quote it?

I too would like to see this rule.


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jspyd3rx wrote:SA destroys the unit and it does count as a casualty under the English definition of the word "casualty".

No, Destroyed and "Casualty" are two very different words.

de·stroy (d-stroi)
v. de·stroyed, de·stroy·ing, de·stroys
v.tr.
1. To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire.
2. To tear down or break up; demolish. See Synonyms at ruin.
3. To do away with; put an end to: "In crowded populations, poverty destroys the possibility of cleanliness" (George Bernard Shaw).
4. To kill: destroy a rabid dog.
5. To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.
6. To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.
v.intr.
To be destructive; cause destruction: "Too much money destroys as surely as too little" (John Simon)

ca·su·al·ty (kzh-l-t)
n. pl. ca·su·al·ties
1. An accident, especially one involving serious injury or loss of life.
2. One injured or killed in an accident: a train wreck with many casualties.
3. One injured, killed, captured, or missing in action through engagement with an enemy. Often used in the plural: Battlefield casualties were high.
4. One that is harmed or eliminated as a result of an action or a circumstance: The corner grocery was a casualty of the expanding supermarkets.

Our shared English definition of both words. A destroyed unit or model is counted as a casualty, according to our language.

Actually, I speak English, you speak some weird version, but I digress.

In 40k, different words have different definitions. Casualty != Destroyed != Removed

Gwar! wrote:Actually, I speak English, you speak some weird version, but I digress.

In 40k, different words have different definitions. Casualty != Destroyed != Removed

Naw, don't think so. English is English. 40k does have new words to correspond to various fictional races and kultures. Also, look in your necron codex (which I am guessing you do not have). That "Any necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged".

*SNAP

jspyd3rx wrote: Also, look in your necron codex (which I am guessing you do not have). That "Any necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged".

*SNAP

I have the Necron codex. I looked in it. You quoted the rule correctly.
Now look in your rulebook at page 40 under sweeping advances. "The falling back unit is destroyed." Not 'suffers a number of wounds equal to the members of the unit', not 'are wounded and become casualties' nothing at all like that. They are destroyed. Further along in the rule, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately." Not later on, not after a WBB roll, not next turn or at the end of this turn, "immediately".
They are destroyed, removed, count as a KP all of this.
I don't understand how this can be misinterpreted by anyone at this point.

And now he is going to use WBB, a special rule, to try and rescue the unit. *Priceless*

time wizard wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote: Also, look in your necron codex (which I am guessing you do not have). That "Any necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged".

*SNAP

I have the Necron codex. I looked in it. You quoted the rule correctly.
Now look in your rulebook at page 40 under sweeping advances. "The falling back unit is destroyed." Not 'suffers a number of wounds equal to the members of the unit', not 'are wounded and become casualties' nothing at all like that. They are destroyed. Further along in the rule, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately." Not later on, not after a WBB roll, not next turn or at the end of this turn, "immediately".
They are destroyed, removed, count as a KP all of this.
I don't understand how this can be misinterpreted by anyone at this point.

Is the unit counted as a casualty?

jspyd3rx wrote:

time wizard wrote:

jspyd3rx wrote: Also, look in your necron codex (which I am guessing you do not have). That "Any necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged".

*SNAP

I have the Necron codex. I looked in it. You quoted the rule correctly.
Now look in your rulebook at page 40 under sweeping advances. "The falling back unit is destroyed." Not 'suffers a number of wounds equal to the members of the unit', not 'are wounded and become casualties' nothing at all like that. They are destroyed. Further along in the rule, "The destroyed unit is removed immediately." Not later on, not after a WBB roll, not next turn or at the end of this turn, "immediately".
They are destroyed, removed, count as a KP all of this.
I don't understand how this can be misinterpreted by anyone at this point.

Is the unit counted as a casualty?

Irrelevant, "counted as" and "removed as" are two different terms.

jspyd3rx wrote:Is the unit counted as a casualty?

No, it is destroyed. This is different to being removed as casualties. It is THAT simple.

Just look at the order of actions in this thing.

1) Necrons get swept.
2) Necrons must get 'removed' from the game.
3) WBB kicks in to say they get put on their side
4) SA rules say "bugger off, no special rule saves you from getting taken off the board"
5) Necrons get taken off the board because the SA rules are still in effect until the unit is removed.
6) unit removed.
7) SA rules cease to take effect
8) Anything on it's side (nothing) gets a WBB roll.

SA is not satisfied until the unit is removed. So the part where it says to ignore special rules is in effect until the unit is off the board. Necrons don't get WBB if they're off the board.

Mod:

How much longer does this wresting have to go on?



Does everyone want to continue politely, or shall I lock the thread?

Kilkrazy wrote:Does everyone want to continue politely, or shall I lock the thread?

Please lock it before I somehow get banned again I try to be polite but I know others are not as pleasant.

Might just as well lock it, I don't believe it will ever get resolved here.
And I think everyone has been polite here so far!

time wizard wrote:Might just as well lock it, I don't believe it will ever get resolved here.
And I think everyone has been polite here so far!

I have no problems with anyone. I would rather not lock as I am awaiting a response from GW and will post here or just start another thread with response. I think we all have said our peace. I am done until i get that response.

jspyd3rx wrote:I have no problems with anyone. I would rather not lock as I am awaiting a response from GW and will post here or just start another thread with response. I think we all have said our peace. I am done until i get that response.

And like we have said, GW's response doesn't matter. And how do we know you won't just fabricate an answer when you get it?

If GW's answer does not matter, then why should yours?

And again, as the other poster said, the GW guys are not box packers. Rules answers come from headquarters, not the shipping department.

And no one feels the need to attack you and your knowledge of the rules because you mop goo off the floor of the men's club downtown.

General Hobbs wrote:And again, as the other poster said, the GW guys are not box packers. Rules answers come from headquarters, not the shipping department.

No, they do not come from Headquarters.


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General Hobbs wrote:If GW's answer does not matter, then why should yours?

Because I actually have a Clue and know the rules.

Gwar! wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:And again, as the other poster said, the GW guys are not box packers. Rules answers come from headquarters, not the shipping department.

No, they do not come from Headquarters.


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General Hobbs wrote:If GW's answer does not matter, then why should yours?

Because I actually have a Clue and know the rules.

GWAR, ease up man. Really uncalled for. We all need are critics. I think we need this debate. The rest of that is unnecessary.

Lol shows how much you know. Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com, and before that when you could call in for a rules query, are done at Games Workshop US Headquarters in Glen Burnie Maryland. Manufacturing and shipping ( with the so called ignorant box packers) were is out of Memphis, Tennessee. In the UK I believe the two locations are at the same location.

In any event, the rules"boy" still has more rules knowledge then 99% of the people out there, including yourself.

Maybe all the rest of you should ease up. Gwar is actually being fairly polite for once, and you are all being unfair to him. (This is sad for me really, because I voted to ban Gwar and now here I am defending him.)

As for the rest of you who were hurt by Gwar's "box packer" comment, let's all get real here. We all know that GW rules answers have always been horrible, and that it's just been any old person that answered the phone giving whatever answer they felt like. All the comments about "providing for the family" have nothing to do with the fact that GW didn't have a dedicated rules guru answering questions.

Now, apparently John Spencer is answering questions, but he has the same experience that alot of us do, and by his own admission doesn't have a secret bat phone to the games developers, so what are his credentials exactly besides playing the game alot? I'm sure alot of us play alot.

If you want to throw out credentials, are very own yakface, owner of this board, is personally mentioned in the new GW FAQ's, along with the Adepticon Council.

Here at Dakka we pride ourselves on having meaningful rules debates, and we all do a very good job of quoting relevant rules and creating logical sound arguments, so waltzing in here and saying that the "Rulez Boyz" said you're right doesn't really carry much weight around here.

KeithGatchalian wrote:In any event, the rules"boy" still has more rules knowledge then 99% of the people out there, including yourself.

Yes I am sure their reputation for not knowing the rules is totally unwarranted.</sarcasm>


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whitedragon wrote:Maybe all the rest of you should ease up. Gwar is actually being fairly polite for once, and you are all being unfair to him. (This is sad for me really, because I voted to ban Gwar and now here I am defending him.)

I love you too

As for the rest of you who were hurt by Gwar's "box packer" comment, let's all get real here. We all know that GW rules answers have always been horrible, and that it's just been any old person that answered the phone giving whatever answer they felt like. All the comments about "providing for the family" have nothing to do with the fact that GW didn't have a dedicated rules guru answering questions.

This is EXACTLY my point.

Now, apparently John Spencer is answering questions, but he has the same experience that alot of us do, and by his own admission doesn't have a secret bat phone to the games developers, so what are his credentials exactly besides playing the game alot? I'm sure alot of us play alot.

If you want to throw out credentials, are very own yakface, owner of this board, is personally mentioned in the new GW FAQ's, along with the Adepticon Council.

And this is also exactly what I meant. If I had to listen to Yakface or some random guy sending me an email, I'll listen to Yakface.

SO...

Is everyone all done now?

Because attacking each other, or the guy at GW who does answer questions?

That's gotten old already.

This thing has to stay on topic, or it is headed to the graveyard.

jspyd3rx wrote:I wonder if anyone even has the codex or plays necrons. Just for the record, the BRB states that whenever a model is brought down to zero wounds or dispatched in any creative or humorous way it is removed from the game; just like SA states. With that in mind, necrons shouldn't even be allowed to WBB. SA staes that a DESTROYED unit is removed from the game; just like any other instance of death and destruction. For necrons the unit is always counted as gone when killed, they don't exist anymore. WBB comes into effect and the end of the turn, after all that could possibly be done has been done. This counts towards phase out. If a swept unit brings the crons to 25% or less phase out occurs immediately, this actually applies in all instances of death, destruction and any way in which a necron is removed from the game. If they don't fall to 25% percent then they have a chance to come back after being destroyed, though the downed necrons still count as victory points or deaths or casualties. Again, WBB does not save or prevent the unit from being destroyed by SA.

This would be true except for one unit: The Necron Lord. If you let him take a WBB roll from SA, then he is Saved from the SA.... it has not destroyed him, nor was he removed from the table. Unit or model, after WBB he is still exactly the same as he was before the SA, minus a couple wounds. Nothing about WBB has changed, nor has SA changed any, but here we have clear, undeniable proof that WBB would save the unit from Sweeping Advance, without specifically countering it, and is therefor non-applicable.

Lordhat wrote:
This would be true except for one unit: The Necron Lord. If you let him take a WBB roll from SA, then he is Saved from the SA.... it has not destroyed him, nor was he removed from the table. Unit or model, after WBB he is still exactly the same as he was before the SA, minus a couple wounds. Nothing about WBB has changed, nor has SA changed any, but here we have clear, undeniable proof that WBB would save the unit from Sweeping Advance, without specifically countering it.

But the point is that it is not up to me or anyone else to let the lord or any other necron take WBB from SA. It is not the way the rules work.
Units caught in SA are destroyed and immediately removed.
No special rule can save them.
WBB is a special rule.
It cannot save any necron unit from SA.
For any rule to do so, it would have to specify that the rule negates or prevents destruction from SA.
WBB has no specific wording, rule or clause that prevents or negates destruction from SA.
It doesn't get much clearer than that.

LOL my bad for not reading the quoted post all the way through. I am firmly entrenched in the 'SA does not allow WBB' side of the debate. Will edit my post to reflect this.

Try sweeping him. He made me start this thread.

What does a Necron Lord Conversion have to do with this?

Just trying to lighten up the debate, that's all.

okay guys I'm throwing the towel in on this one, but it's not because of your guys' arguments. To be frank, you got me on the right topic 'casualty v. destruction' but you could have been a little better with the yellow highlighter.... and of course none of you Ba$tards ever bothered to offer an explanation for what in tarnation WBB's 'or would otherwise be removed as a casualty' meant...I had to really think on it and look it up myself (took me a while to divine it)and I'll send you the bill for the medicine. It still has problems by the way, but we'll get to that...

Anyways...


This is what I have found in my 'meditation' on the Necron WBB rule and its relation to SA in the context of casualty v. destroyed...

The first thing is that I have come to accept that there actually IS a difference between the two terms of Casualty and destroyed.

This is difficult to make out because they are two of the nebulous pseudo-rule terms within the BGB that are certainly in there, but not organized/Listed with a reference or absolute description in the back index. You have to find their mentions individually if you have anything referring to them.

For those who are interested, casualties are mentioned specifically in 3 separate situations ( though numerically they are in more than one section--there's some repetition).

They are mentioned as occurring as a result of wounding from shooting on p. 24, from an Instant death attack on 26, and wounding from an assault on p.39

Simply put, and though it galls me to admit so, because SA simply says remove the models and that they are destroyed, without mention of the word 'casualty' , WBB does nothing.

I say this because the rule-book specifically took pains to mention that lost models were 'casualties' in each of the other examples, yet did not in reference to SA

However... this still leaves us with answering just exactly what WBB does do.

As I said they don't mention rules for nothing....

'When reduced to 0 wounds...'

I have taken this to mean 2 instances for WBB. In the case of failing a dangerous terrain test with a model, losing the 1 wound, and then having the model dead, and also for instances of regular 'casualties' where a wound was not saved and resulted in model death.

Now.... is where things get WeIrD

"...or would otherwise be removed as a casualty"

Since we know regular (NPE: Non-Power-Equivalent) wounds would work under the 'reduced to 0 wounds' this must refer to something else.

We have that something else.... or at least we think we do.

The instant death as mentioned above is counted as a casualty and does not involve being reduced to 0 wounds. It's instant death.

Thus we have a plausible meaning for "or would otherwise be removed as a casualty"

...except for a teeny tiny problem. Like....
N-Codex p.13
"A Necron cannot self-repair if it was destroyed by a close combat weapon that allows no Armour save or any weapon whose Strength is twice the Toughness of the Necron concerned."


You know... the thing that causes ID in most cases...
*sigh* Real useful, thanks GW.


So, for the most part, there goes that. Instant death, the only seemingly legal use for the "Otherwise removed as a casualty' clause is almost entirely shut down.

Double strength causing ID is down and any power-class melee weapon that causes ID is down. Since nearly nearly all melee weapons which cause ID are also power weapons (Force Weapon, etc.) that also pretty much locks that down.

So all I can think up being left where WBB actually works for ID is a NPE melee weapon which causes ID and a special ranged-weapon which causes ID yet doesn't have double Strength to Toughness.

So in that regard... does anyone know of a single weapon which is not a power weapon yet can cause instant death? Likewise, does anyone know of a ranged-weapon which causes ID, but does not have the double Strength to Toughness over say... a T4 model?

...I can't think of any other possibilities for what the "ORAAC" clause could mean other than if the weapon just 'happens' to mention 'remove it as a casualty.


Oh well....another fine day for Necron.

Just some quick looking around, the Chaos Demon psychic power "Boon of Mutation" removes a target model as a casualty without reducing wounds, and replaces it with a spawn. I'd say WBB would kick in this situation, leading to the interesting situation where a spawn was created from a model but your necron still was able to pull itself together.

Lol, yes that sounds about par for the course.

Someone else in ... I guess a 'cousin' of this thread mentioned that the Eldar have a gun which causes ID, however I thought it just removed a model.

I don't know because I'm not all that familiar with Eldar.

Again though, thanks for the mention of the Chaos power

I was convinced when I read that the WBB specifies model and SA specifies unit.

Models are not taking a wound, entire unit is being removed.

I still believe that the SA does not affect Necron models that are already laying down at the time of the SA. WBB says models laying down "are ignored completely for all normal game purposes."

A Sweeping Advance is part of the core rules and I see no reason why it should not be considered part of "all normal game purposes." I believe it specifically needs to mention "Necron models waiting to make their WBB rolls that were part of the unit" in order to catch Necrons that are already down because of the "all normal game purposes" thing.

So then the Monolith Portal does nothing yes?
You can't have it both ways.

It doesnt protect you, though the models that were knocked down before can get back up.

Night Lords wrote:It doesnt protect you, though the models that were knocked down before can get back up.

THis is what we're debating.

The Monolith would still work as normal because it specifically mentions dead Necrons.

I have to admit that for all the models that were downed pre-sweep, I think they should be able to WBB as normal.

When they were killed, unlike with sweeping, they were removed as casualties-- no getting around that.

As for if they were still considered part of the unit? Ehh. it does say the 'ignore them' thing which would put them in what- a rule stasis?

Anyways, I don't see the problem with the left-overs standing up in this context. The models we're talking about weren't swept themselves nor were they considered , by the whole 'ignore them' clause, part of the unit.

Realistically, did they have to move like they were part of the unit if they had fallen back instead? Yes. Rules-based are they 'actually' part of the unit. I don't think so.

This seems to be yet another friggin weird thing about WBB. Being models that are 'practically' in the unit without actually being in the unit itself. Moving with the unit in fallback, but not counting towards coherency, etc...

Can anyone guess why they're getting FNP instead in the next codex? lol

Anyone wanting Downed models to get WBB after a SA must also make sure the Monolith Does nothing.

RobPro wrote:

Night Lords wrote:It doesnt protect you, though the models that were knocked down before can get back up.

THis is what we're debating.

The Monolith would still work as normal because it specifically mentions dead Necrons.

....that's the point.

The Monolith rules states the UNIT and any dead necrons that failed WBB are brought through. But how do you determine which units the dead necrons are part of?

If they are part of their parent unit (hint: they are) then the monolith works well. This has the flipside of meaning that the downed necrons are swept as they are still part of the unit.

IF they are not part of the parent unit, they have no unit affiliation and the downed necrons can NEVER be teleported. EVER.

So you can't have it both ways: if the monolith works, SA removes entire units including the downed necrons

Yes, there really isnt a problem with the rules kicking in like this: Models are shot, laid on their sides as WBB is applied. The unit loses cc and is swept, the SA rule removes ALL of the models including the models that are already casualties. Since the SA removes the unit the models arent ther for WBB to be used.

Look at it like this, if a unit of 3 necrons is assaulted by models with both PW and regular attacks and receive one regular wound and five PW wounds....would you claim that one of the models can make his WBB roll because the regular attack killed him? Even tho the same model also takes a PW wound?

If a unit is removed by something that ignores WBB then any previous WBB that is on the stack will still be overridden.


Sliggoth

I would have to say that the WBB rules weren't even particularly clear in 3rd edition when they were written.

However, I can't see where the debate is coming from here (after reading all 5 pages, and the other thread 6 weeks ago).

"No special rule can save them."

WBB is a special rule. Ergo, it cannot save them.

The model was part of the unit. The rules say when it becomes damaged it is put on its side and mostly ignored. The rules do *not* say it is no longer part of the same unit. There is no reason to change its status.

Also, the downed model moves with the unit.

The downed model teleports with the unit.

How can it *not* be part of the unit. Yes, it is a part of the unit that is mostly ignored, but it is still part of the unit.

Sort of like a bomb squig, or Eldar weapon platforms.

I think you guys need to look at it a little more closely. It looks like they may be part of the unit, but nowhere in the SA rules does it say to remove downed Necron models. Their unit is gone, but they are left behind "unitless." This does not contradict the Monolith rules as a unit of entirely dead models would be unable to teleport through it anyways.

Errm, SA does say to remove the downed necrons, because it removes the unit (which the downed necrons are part of). Unless they are not part of the unit, which means the Monolith does nothing

RobPro wrote:I think you guys need to look at it a little more closely. It looks like they may be part of the unit, but nowhere in the SA rules does it say to remove downed Necron models. Their unit is gone, but they are left behind "unitless." This does not contradict the Monolith rules as a unit of entirely dead models would be unable to teleport through it anyways.

I have to agree with Gwar! Damaged models are still part of the unit that they originally were with. Only if the damaged model is closer to a different unit on a successful WBB does it transfer to the closest unit of the same type, I believe. Otherwise the monolith wouldn't work as Gwar! states.

Also I'm confused as to why you think a WBB doesn't work if the entire unit is damaged.

I believe that an entire unit that is damaged, but is still within 6" of a like unit or a 12" of a tomb spyder and a like unit is on the board gets a WBB roll, if by chance that the entire unit failed it's WBB roll, and you opt to teleport that unit through the monolith at the end of your movement phase, you may get a reroll on all failed WBB rolls. Atleast that is my understanding of the rule.

I am pretty sure the Monolith is specific (mentioning downed Necrons) while Sweeping Advance does not. I believe this is a case of codex (already dead Warriors ignoring the SA) vs. rulebook.

RobPro wrote:I am pretty sure the Monolith is specific (mentioning downed Necrons) while Sweeping Advance does not. I believe this is a case of codex (already dead Warriors ignoring the SA) vs. rulebook.

And as we have pointed out Multiple times in this thread, Codex > Rulebook means jack. Sweeping Advance Clearly overrides the codex in every single regard with the sole exception of if the codex specifically mentions Sweeping Advance (ala ATSKNF).

If the downed necrons are part of the unit for the purposes of WBB re-rolls/Falling back, they are part of the unit for Sweeping Advance.

Just to back up the point Gwar is making, the GW FAQ also suggests that when a unit that has downed models falls back you actually move the downed models with the falling back unit.

In other words, even though the WBB rules don't specifically cover this, you kind of have to play that downed models are still part of the unit until they get back up again and join a different unit.

Any other interpretation doesn't make any sort of consistent sense when taking into account the Monolith's portal rule and GW's FAQ ruling.

yakface wrote:
Just to back up the point Gwar is making, the GW FAQ also suggests that when a unit that has downed models falls back you actually move the downed models with the falling back unit.

In other words, even though the WBB rules don't specifically cover this, you kind of have to play that downed models are still part of the unit until they get back up again and join a different unit.

Any other interpretation doesn't make any sort of consistent sense when taking into account the Monolith's portal rule and GW's FAQ ruling.

I are happy Trolle.

But even if you ignore the FAQ, the fact is for the Monolith to have any sort of effect whatsoever, they have to remain part of the unit.

RobPro wrote:I am pretty sure the Monolith is specific (mentioning downed Necrons) while Sweeping Advance does not. I believe this is a case of codex (already dead Warriors ignoring the SA) vs. rulebook.

To add to Yakface and Gwar!: This has been covered *multiple times* - if the monolith works (it selects units) then the downed models are swept by SA as they are part of the unit. THe only *logically consistent* position is that they are part of the unit.

ALso say it with me: SPecific vs General. All the problems go away if you remember that specific rules trump general rules. 90% of the time this is codex over rulebook, but SA is one of those times when it isn't. If you stop thinking that the codex must always win out you 'll see your errors.

Ehhh, I have to agree.

You know guys we should really all just get together and write one nice BIG article on WBB and all its pitfalls. In the last week and 1/2 we've covered:

WBB: what it really means for terms of use
WBB: Why it doesn't work with SA
WBB: Why models that were already downed are still swept with the unit


Anyways, I have one last foot ball to kick out here:

2 units of like-type near each other. One gets shot pretty bad and ends up leaving quite a few turned models on the side closest to the other unit of like-type.
WBB comes around next turn and it turns out that 3-4 models are actually closer to the other unit than their original unit they were part of. The N-Codex on p. 13 says "the repaired Necron will immediately be placed in coherency with the closest unit of the same type"

Thus, these 3-4 models would go and join the other unit. Suppose of these 3-4, one or two failed---- if you use the Monolith on this unit do the one or two which failed and were transferring also get a re-roll?

My weight lies behind the stand of NO, mostly because of what we've already discussed. Still, I think it warrants discussion since it further illuminated the relationship between WBB and the Monolith.


BTW, WBB not working with SA is not an example of the BGB trumping the codex at all. WBB does not work simply because the removal of models as per SA does not fall underneath the rule of WBB. WBB triggers when a model would be reduced to 0 wounds or would otherwise be removed as a casualty. SA does not remove the models as a casualty. Thus THAT is the reason it does not work.

For the purposes of the general argument of codex v. BGB, BGB trumps in the circumstances of ultimate limits i.e. Max Strength, Max Leadership, Always passing Ld test on double ones, etc. Everything else is modifiable by codex with the codex having end say.

At least that's how it seems to me.

No, because they weren't part of the unit.

The FAQ is a neat idea but we'd need some cool Necron pics.

I think it's doable. I have a bunch of painted Necrons and a monolith. I also play SM so I can have a full-painted enemy army also.

A quick note: The "Monolith Doesn't work" part of the argument is true when discussing that PoV, but for different reasons, and it is not universally true. A unit must be transported, certainly, but everyone supporting the "models != unit" argument has already agreed that the unit is destroyed by sweeping advance. Of course the models can't be transported by the monolith, because there is no unit (as it has been destroyed).

The unit is gone, and the only way it is getting back up is to join another unit anyway. Thus the monolith can teleport a unit and have them reroll their wbb, because the models are not part of the original unit. Unfortunately, this means the ones downed from still can't get back up because they are not part of the unit being transported. The monolith still operates as normal with this PoV for normal squads, just not those downed by sweeping advances that turn.

I am personally a believer in the "models are part of the unit" PoV (as the definition of casualty argument overrides the distinction anyway), but I think that the other side's message is being misrepresented. And I also hate it when arguments don't move forward and people just iterate the same posts.

1) I can't believe this is still going on, and it's gone now to monolith ability.

2) I'm gonna have to agree with the fact that downed necrons, though down, are part of their parent unit. They cannot exist on their own, they aren't independent characters or a member of their own unit, therefore they still belong to their parent unit. Unit is removed, not "the unit, but not any casualties, are removed" the whole bleedin' unit is gone!

I think I might be seeing where you're going with this.

But I think it would really hinge on being able to make an argument that the models downed in a unit pre-SA and in range for WBB to another unit were considered to be exactly the same as the models downed originally from the unit they were moving into.

I guess what I'm saying is this--- How do we know there is a difference between a downed model that originally came from the unit the monolith is targeting versus a downed model originally from another unit that is attempting to WBB and move into cohesion with the unit the Monolith is targeting.

I think your theory would work better if the Monolith had said something along the lines of 'target a unit, transport them, and reroll any failed WBBs for all models that attempted to do so and would have moved into cohesion with this unit if they had succeeded'

Thing is---- it doesn't read that way. It says it rerolls for failed WBBs the unit made-- which suggests models downed are still attached to their unit. For the Monolith to still give re-rolls with this in mind would require the understanding that as soon as any Necron model is downed- it automatically joins the closest surviving unit of its type. This of course doesn't happen-- and we know that for sure because the FAQ has units of Necron falling back dragging their dead friends with them.

That is how we know the difference between dead Necron folks originally from the unit being targeted by a Monolith and other dead Necron who plan on moving into cohesion with the unit when they WBB or wouldn't as is the case in point.

PERHAPS, however I have completely misunderstood you. The other thing I think you may have been intimating was that pre-SA downed models still eligible for WBB should still be able to stand up and move into cohesion with another unit whilst thosewho failed are finally removed.

In that case, ... I still think you can't do it. The SA's effect of removing all models in the unit sans the mention of 'as a casualty' would also mean scooping up the downed models because, as we've already outlined above, they ARE in fact still part of the unit and here WBB doesn't save them.

So, as a recap, we have this
(1) If the unit is SA-- everything goes B/C the unit is simply removed, not removed as a casualty, thus WBB doesn't activate. What's more-- already dead Necrons also go away because they are still part of the unit.

(2) For Monolith consideration (not talking about swept units at all any more), if you have 2 units close enough to one another to the point that some of the models would move into the unit being targeted by the Monolith for transportation and WBB reroll, those models who would have moved into the targeted unit if they had passed WBB, but did not because they failed the test do NOT get a re-roll because they were not in fact part of the unit targeted.

--- Models move into cohesion after passing WBB and are not considered to automatically be part of the unit they are closest to when they die/are about to WBB into. Downed models are in fact still part of the unit they originally came from UNTIL they successfully pass a WBB test and move into their new unit---

@The Dragon:
Assuming you are responding to my post, the following is what I mean. People were saying that the monolith wouldn't work at all under the "models =! unit" interpretation. I was simply saying that while I agree with their position, the monolith would still work normally. As SA'd necrons can't be transported anyway (because, like you said, they are not part of the unit), they are partially right, but still misrepresenting the other side of the argument.

Eh, it was hard to tell for me.

Anyways, I think I would be happy not to see another WBB post for at least 2 weeks. I feel like a lawyer... the financial crimes kind.

You didn't file your 2wd 40 form : GUILTY!

The model only joins the new unit when it passes its' WBB - if it doesn't do so then it must stay with the same unit.

Think of unit assignment as a variable - when it passes the WBB the old value is written over and replaced with a new unit identifier.

The Dragon wrote:You know guys we should really all just get together and write one nice BIG article on WBB and all its pitfalls.

If we can get an agreement of course
Heck, if we get as far as an FAQ with pics etc. I'll put my hand up to lay it out as a handy printable PDF.

Hi there everyone. I am a fairly new player and play space marines vs my mates necrons.

We had come to the result that after a Sweeping advance he would get his WBB rolls but after reading this very interesting and heated debate i have changed my mind.

I admit that i dont have a necron codex on me right now but i see everyone is bringing up the statement in the codex that says when the necron reaches 0 wounds he gets a WBB roll and they have been saying that a sweeping advance brings that down to zero wounds so they should be able to roll WBB. The sentence in the rulebook that interests me says: " We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensivly scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either Dead, wounded and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding. 2 of those 3 options would mean that the necrons have not lost their wounds and have either been captured or hiding for the rest of the game meaning they do not get their WBB rolls and have to be removed from the game.

Hell i say draw the line in the middle. They have given us 3 choices on what they do. call 2/3 of them either captured or hiding and 1/3 of them dead and give 1/3 of your squad WBB rolls LOL.

As i said i am a very new player and may have overlooked something and if you think i have feel free to correct me but that is just my 2 cents on a very confusing rule. I dont think we will have it in black and white until they update the necron codex properly.

unistoo wrote:

The Dragon wrote:You know guys we should really all just get together and write one nice BIG article on WBB and all its pitfalls.

If we can get an agreement of course
Heck, if we get as far as an FAQ with pics etc. I'll put my hand up to lay it out as a handy printable PDF.

very groovy. *rubs hands together whilst cackling* it all comes together.

I think I'll start trying to consolidate our RAW based findings and rationalizations here pretty soon and maybe pass it through interested parties to make sure there's an absolute consensus on the rules and the specific wording of what we've found so that most everyone can understand what's being said. A lot of the earlier posts in the thread were right, but failed to really elaborate the details so the message was lost other than the end conclusion--which no one wanted to listen to until the picture was painted.

The Dragon wrote: I think I'll start trying to consolidate our RAW based findings and rationalizations here pretty soon and maybe pass it through interested parties to make sure there's an absolute consensus on the rules and the specific wording of what we've found so that most everyone can understand what's being said.

You might want to keep track of notable contributors so that we can append a list of 'thanks to'.

Ryanjsmall wrote: The sentence in the rulebook that interests me says: " We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensivly scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either Dead, wounded and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding. 2 of those 3 options would mean that the necrons have not lost their wounds and have either been captured or hiding for the rest of the game meaning they do not get their WBB rolls and have to be removed from the game.

Hell i say draw the line in the middle. They have given us 3 choices on what they do. call 2/3 of them either captured or hiding and 1/3 of them dead and give 1/3 of your squad WBB rolls LOL.

That is what is known as "Fluff", aka Background material. The rule is that the Unit is Removed and no special rule can save them. So they do not get WBB.

Ack. You know you can't just say that 'no special rule saves them' generally like that.

It says no special rule may save them unless it specifically states otherwise i.e. ATSKNF mentioning SA with SM

This is actually one of the things that dug at me for so long in the early part of the thread and was one of the reasons why I clung to the feeble dream of WBB in the face of SA for so long-- It was a major part of the argument that I disagreed with and I had evidence (SM) contradicting it, so it left me wondering what other WBB platitudes were wrong. This of course led down the long, long trail to my current RAW friendly, factual opinion.

Well, let me give this one last go. I guess I'm not explaining very well the part I'm trying to get across.

Say Necrons are still in the unit. This is beginning to sound like a good idea to me (as it lets us move on from the 'Monolith doesn't work' argument) and I still think I can demonstrate why Necrons already down would be able to stick around after a SA. Even if you don't agree, at least there will be some different questions in the thread.

Suppose you have a 10 man unit of Warriors and 2 die in your opponent's shooting phase. They're still considered part of the unit, they roll their WBB, 1 gets up, they port through the 'Lith, 1 more gets up and there's no problems.

Suppose that 10 man unit gets completely knocked down, so none are standing, but due to other Necrons being nearby or a TS they are still eligible. Can an entirely down Necron unit be ported through the Monolith? Are they still considered in a unit if the entire unit is down?

If those 10 Warriors are instead in CC and 6 get knocked down and 4 get swept, we have 6 models that are ineligible to be removed by the SA while 4 can. In that situation, I would think the unit gets removed, but the 6 stick around. WBB creates a "bubble" around them where they "are ignored for all normal game purposes." The 6 downed Warriors are now on the table without a unit, and are negligible for the Monolith. SA is certainly a normal game purpose.

Even if you disagree, is that a little clearer than before?

Is WBB a special rule that would otherwise save the unit?

Yes you say?

Then it's ignored unless it *specifically" states otherwise.

WBB does not specifically state otherwise. WBB would oitherwise save the unit (as members of the unit are not being removed - you said so yourself above) and the only way you are not removing them is you are trying to use a special rule.

WBB does NOT work against SA: it did not work in 4th and the only change in 5th is tehy removed WBB as an *example of a rule that does not work* - that is it. No more analysis is needed.

So you are saying SA is not part of "all normal game purposes"?

And no, WBB would not otherwise save the unit. Due to the way the unit is removed, it would never try. However, it -does- protect the ones already knocked down.

I'm sure that if we could all agree on what a "normal game purpose" was, things might be easier. We can't, so we should only deal with what is certain. I already answered your question a few posts back, RobPro. As the necrons do not become a part of the unit until after a WBB is successfully made, they (the SA'd or wiped necrons) cannot get up when sent through the monolith.

The position you espouse still cannot deal with the definition of casualties argument, in any case, so the point is moot.

RobPro wrote:So you are saying SA is not part of "all normal game purposes"?

And no, WBB would not otherwise save the unit. Due to the way the unit is removed, it would never try. However, it -does- protect the ones already knocked down.

Is WBB a special rule? Yes? Then it is ignored.

The ones already down are STILL part of the unit. So when you remove the unit, by SA, you remove the ones downed as part of the unit. Can you not see the base problem in your argument? You are using a special rule to save the unit - the models that are down are part of the unit, if you dont remove them then the unit, at that point, has BY DEFINITION been saved. Just because it is not an armour save is irrelevant - the unit has yet to be fully removed, and you are trying to prevent the removal of a unit by a special rule.

SA is MORE SPECIFIC than WBB. Specific beats general everytime.

yup, and those knocked down ones can instead join the other Necron unit when they get up from WBB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote: Just because it is not an armour save is irrelevant - the unit has yet to be fully removed, and you are trying to prevent the removal of a unit by a special rule.

ahem, the unit is gone. The ones that get up join another unit instead

Except they should have already been removed, as WBB does not work against SA - *at the time you resolve SA any downed models are part of the unit and by not removing them you have not complied with the requirements of SA*

It is really that straightforward.

You do realise that WBB happens the next turn at the earliest? At the time the models are downed they belong to the parent unit - that has been settled. Sorry. You have not got an argument there - the RAW is clear. If you still belong to the parent unit, and you are told to remove the *entire unit*, what makes you tihnk you can leave the unit there? WBB? But it's a special rule, and SA overrides special rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except they should have already been removed, as WBB does not work against SA - *at the time you resolve SA any downed models are part of the unit and by not removing them you have not complied with the requirements of SA*

It is really that straightforward.

I just don't really think that SA has permission to remove the dead Necrons as they are under a "bubble" of being "ignored for all normal game purposes" after they have been killed. The SA is not triggering WBB, but it still has to deal with the models that are already under the affects of WBB.

I see what you're trying to say here, but that's not possible. If the downed models are in a bubble of "no rules" where no special rules,etc. can be used on them or trigger against them... then WBB itself also can NEVER happen.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

You can't say 'na na na na na na bubble for me and no bad rules too, but all my good ones comes through'.


The WBB for downed models never comes to be for a simple, clear, coherent set of reasons already covered and I'm not talking just screaming 'Spazifik verzas JenRal'

(1) Downed models are in fact still part of their parent unit until such time as they may WBB and move into cohesion with another unit which is closer than the parent

(2) SA removes all models in a unit from the game, not as casualties, but simply removes them.

This is not limited to live models, but the entire unit's models regardless of what state they may be in. This is the only time and place where SA's 'nothing may save them' factor comes into the equation. The WBB rule of 'ignore for all normal game purposes' fails in light of SA's mention of specific rules being necessary regarding SA itself for a unit to circumvent destruction.

(3) Because even downed models are taken by SA, and because, once again, they are not removed as casualties, but simply removed, WBB does not activate for them and thus they are destroyed.

Robpro wrote:I just don't really think that SA has permission to remove the dead Necrons as they are under a "bubble" of being "ignored for all normal game purposes" after they have been killed. The SA is not triggering WBB, but it still has to deal with the models that are already under the affects of WBB.

But you see that is the problem SA effects the entire unit. Regardless of their state, NO SPECIAL RULE can prevent them from being removed unless it has a clause to override SA. WBB does not, so it does not. It's really that simple.

RobPro wrote:I just don't really think that SA has permission to remove the dead Necrons as they are under a "bubble" of being "ignored for all normal game purposes" after they have been killed. The SA is not triggering WBB, but it still has to deal with the models that are already under the affects of WBB.

It's quite irrelevant - as you yourself posted, the models that are downed are still part of the parent unit until such time as they join another unit in an entirely different player turn and as such by not removing the unit you are not complying with the requirements of SA.

Is WBB a special rule? yes
Does it mention SA? NO
Does it attempt to save members of the unit, and by definition therefore the unit itself? YES
Conclusion: If you try to leave members of the unit on the table you are trying to save the unit, which is cheating

While your point is valid, degenerating into calling another interpretation cheating is counterproductive. Cheating implies knowingly breaking rules. Someone playing within the confines of the rules as they understand them can hardly be labeled a cheater.

No, it is cheating as this is the 6th page with no new interpretations, the rule and how it must be played has been proven over and over again.

SA specifically states you must remove the unit, and no special rule can save them unless it actually specifies it. WBB does not do so, therefore NOTHING about WBB can be enacted.

Robpro - unless you can show how your special rule works when you are told it cannot, to play that the models are not removed IS cheating unless and until your opponent agrees with you.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Robpro - unless you can show how your special rule works when you are told it cannot, to play that the models are not removed IS [violating the SA rule] [...]

Fixed that for you. Try and keep it civil please. Calling each other cheats when we disagree [even when you are correct] is not going to change anyone's mind and is rude. You are making it adversarial when it should be collaboration.

No, by this point it is simply correct usage of the word: knowingly breaking the rules.

The rule for SA is pretty straight forward, even with the pain that is WBB: you must remove the entire unit, no ifs, no buts, and the only way to save the unit is by having a special rule that says so.

Beyond all doubt models that are downed are part of the unit. By attempting to keep them on the table when the SA rule states you *must* remove them, you are leaving the unit at least partially intact and have broken the rule when you have no permission to do so.

Guys, remember -- especially with rules, not only is it important to know THAT it works or simply IS, but also WHY.

You can yell that something IS a million times and that is not going to convince anyone. Explaining, in a detailed manner, WHY something IS on the other hand can quite often shut down dissent, make something clear for everyone, or possibly lead to a better understanding or rationalization.

This entire thread is living proof of that.

I don't have any problems with someone pushing theoreticals in regards to WBB out there. If we can not coherently and concisely respond in good order in defense of our minding of the rules, then we need to examine it again and make a more plausible and comprehensive answer with supporting arguments.

This thread has run its course, and has just devolved into bickering.