Lately my Obliterator's have failed me. Deep striking to their death's failing to hit thing's with their wep's I always field a defiler, but alone it isn't very competitive.

I am thinking of having Havoc's with launcher's or fielding my Land Raider.

Are their alternative's to the Lash/Oblit list, or was i foolhardy for making a Cult marine army?

Lash/Oblitz ain't everything. I've tabled one at 2500 pts. with straight Vanilla CSM swarm/Rhino rush. Havocs work great at 1000 pts and below because you get more shots and more wounds, but tend to lack at higher levels for being so damn vulnerable and not near versatile enough. Just don't DS your Oblitz; there is *rarely* a good reason too. They walk up the table just fine, and as they get closer, switch to TL weapons. THE LR is expensive, crappy long range support in my opinion, but can kept with a min-sized squad and be made scoring too, making it much more worth it. Lots of people would disagree with me on that I'm sure.

Edit: Also, is your avatar Marik?

nope Mion from higurashi ^^

Yeah, the Raider is Damn Expensive i use it only in planet strike.

I'm thinking of a small havoc squad, 5 with missiles seem's cheaper than 3 oblit's, I guess my die will be kinder to me.

I run the same thing in combat patrols and other lower point games and it performs beautifully. It really depends how you want it to fit in your army as a whole. Chaos heavy slots are super-valuable to most lists, but if you're focusing elsewhere or have a spare one then I can't see it hurting.Min-sized Heavy bolter squads rule in combat patrols too.

Edit:
Slight resemblance?

CLR are really there to deliver something combatty into combat.

If missing is an issue
Oblits work just fine walking up the map and shooting plasma cannons.
They don't 'miss' that often.

And like Cannerus said, they have TL weapons.... if they miss it's due to dice, not them themselves.

Defilers and Vindis do work better in pairs, but in addition to that there should be several rhinos, IMO a min. of 3 for that armor saturation.

I don't run lash, but i still run oblits and they do fine enough.

Havocs lost their charm for me: not scoring, no tank hunters, and static.

My 7 Cents.

Oblits are awesome. If your dice are failing you, then things will be no different with havocs.

The alternative in a lash list is vindicators. Two oblits = 1 possessed vindi with a few points to spare. 2 or 3 defilers will work as well. They are easier to kill, but they have much better range and still kill clumped units fairly effectively.

To me, the most solid lash build is dual lash princes, 3 x 2 oblits (or 3 x 3 in big games) and plague marines in rhinos filling the points out.

Mion has green hair and is a girl, but........ I do see a similarity, she is alot paler too.

two defilers would be scary but it would'nt be till like the school year i could get another one

I am making a 1500-1000 pt list for my hobby shop, many people have only just started
i had my awesome 1850 list, but i wana tone it down to something smaller.

hmm
I want Razerbacks why can't my rhino's have lascannon's on their backs?

Well... it's called 5 havocs with 2 lascannons shooting out of a Rhino...heh.
But I don't suggest it.

The closest thing we get to a razorback is a Rhino with a havoc launcher.
That's about it sadly.

But Chaos is Chaos, lets strive to stick with the things that make us unique........like our HQ, troops, and oblits.

Anyone find it funny that it's our unique items that get all the hate?
Whether it's competitive cheese: Daemonprince, Plague marines, oblits.
Or it's the suckness: Greater daemon, lesserdaemon, Spawn, Possessed.

/shrug.

My 7 Cents.

it is, i swear by Daemon princes i may try one with wind of chaos instead of lash, which is not too hard.

The list is gonna include Noise Marine's and my defiler of cource

Maybe some Vanilla Marine's after all not all EC are Noise marine's


My Oblit's have torn the other armies a new one in their past, but lately my die have been horrible to me

Don't think i will have Blastmaster's they are one of my fav wep's but for a smaller game, I don't quite see where i can put them down.

Oh well when i hear people about Chaos i just say..... So when's the last time you'r dreaddy killed a team of you'r marine's?

I luvs my summoned Greater Granted I have 5+ Rhinoes at 2500 so he always comes in at a good spot and typically makes his points on his first turn.

In 2k points, I run a squad with 4 autocannon havocs and 2 autocannon-lascannon sponson predators. The points I save from these cheaper (yet more effective at what they do) alternatives over oblits goes into 2 free dreadnoughts that, despite their crazed rule, simply cant be ignored by the enemy.

Youre paying 75 points for versatility. Oblits can still only shoot once a turn. Taking those points and dividing them into units that specialize in a role for a cheaper total is far better. Havocs with autocannons can take down light vehicles (up to AV13) better than 3 oblits can, and the 2 predators have more lascannons point for point than oblits (thats not even including the 4 autocannon shots).

Oblits, in my opinion, have their uses when you make a list thats not based around heavy support. If you need something to take big things down, and you barely have enough space, oblits are great. However, if you want to make a true point efficient list, I dont think theyre part of it.

I fight very little heavy armor, sides from vect and leman russes, with only 14 armor front.

I have never given autocannon's a shot. might be what ill do.


I always wanted to try lascannon havocs but that would be damn expensive.

Lascannon havocs are expensive.
Though Autocannons are decent weapons, I miss the old days of tank hunters.

My 7 Cents.

I've seen the same thing with oblits... They seem to be very effective at certain point totals, but only having one shot really does have its disadvantages. Is there any way to get havocs at a decent price? I'm thinking about heavy options and I'd love them, but I'm sure as hell not spending $40 for one of each. Any ideas?

You can buy havoc's seperately with the weapon you want, if worse comes to worse steal loyalist weapon's I'm sure they won't mind.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I've seen the same thing with oblits... They seem to be very effective at certain point totals, but only having one shot really does have its disadvantages. Is there any way to get havocs at a decent price? I'm thinking about heavy options and I'd love them, but I'm sure as hell not spending $40 for one of each. Any ideas?

Well, in my opinion, autocannons are the only way to go with them. Lascannons cost too many points, and ACs have twice as many shots at only 1 strength less than missles.

All I did with my autocannon havocs was chop off the twin linked autocannons from my 2 defilers (if i run them, its with 2 CCWs, which is in my opinion the best way anyways) to make 4 autocannons.

I took regular bolters and chopped the ammo belt and the nozzle off of them. I then trimmed down the ACs a bit and glued it on the front. Finally, I divided the defiler's ammo belt into smaller pieces and glued them under the bolter. I think they look great, and Im usually not a fan of conversions like this.

Heres a pic (with my iphone so its not great quality):

those are sick autocannon's I'm trying to make a greenstuff+bits second arm, i might try to use the Autocannon, for that, have to get the paint off of the gun's though.

try a vinicater

Vindy's are only good with possession


but it's 5 point's less then my defiler. hmm maybe but i won't be getting more unit's untill way later.

All the hvy's have their pros and cons.
I feel the vehicles and havocs have more issues due to the rules set more than the unit themselves.

Havocs: pay same for CSM but not scoring, 5th ed = rise of mech.

Pres: looks like you can't move and shoot with dakka preds, while lascannons are generally over priced, and every varient is overpriced with respect to loyalist point values.

LR: identity crisis and no Machine spirit and smaller capacity.

Defiler: HUGE...........and lots of cover saves infantry can get.

Vindi: big side armor and same issue with enemy getting cover saves.

Which leaves oblits, obviously they don't like str 8 + weapons, but they get to claim cover saves, you gain flexibility with deployment and weapon usage.

You have to kil them before you can silence them, they get a variet of saves, are mobile with respect to firing at full effect.

My 7 Cents.

I do regret buying my LR that 70$ could of been something better me think's oh well such is he price for buying model's just cause I think their cool. :S

Just to give Havocs another thumbs up.

I love em because of 4 special weapons without any extra point cost involved.

Oblits seem way too coll not to use, but i consider them to be kinda expensive, and kinda out of their place when you hit a horde army without lashes to make the most out of those Plasma cannon shots.

LR were cool up to last codex, when you could at least fire an extra weapon at BS 2. If wed ever get something like that back, itll see alot more action again.

I can't tell you how many sets of dice have been thrown out onto the interstate on my way home from a game of bad rolls.

The dice must be punished.

Night Lords wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I've seen the same thing with oblits... They seem to be very effective at certain point totals, but only having one shot really does have its disadvantages. Is there any way to get havocs at a decent price? I'm thinking about heavy options and I'd love them, but I'm sure as hell not spending $40 for one of each. Any ideas?

Well, in my opinion, autocannons are the only way to go with them. Lascannons cost too many points, and ACs have twice as many shots at only 1 strength less than missles.

All I did with my autocannon havocs was chop off the twin linked autocannons from my 2 defilers (if i run them, its with 2 CCWs, which is in my opinion the best way anyways) to make 4 autocannons.

I took regular bolters and chopped the ammo belt and the nozzle off of them. I then trimmed down the ACs a bit and glued it on the front. Finally, I divided the defiler's ammo belt into smaller pieces and glued them under the bolter. I think they look great, and Im usually not a fan of conversions like this.

Heres a pic (with my iphone so its not great quality):

Those are great! Personally I'm a big fan of autocannons because of their high volume of fire and decent strength. They can take out all the light armour/MC's which will leave your big guns to deal with AV13/14 threats. S7 isn't great against anything better than AV11, but if you have enough volume isn't anything good enough to get the job done? If you put enough S7 shots on my carnifex he'll eventually fail enough saves, and with such great range he won't be a threat to you for quite some time. My question for you is this though: You have AC havocs to deal with light/massed armour, what do you use for really heavy armour to compliment the havocs?

You have two options when vs. hordes:
1. Plasma cannons: no need for lash, you can tank shock them to get them bunched up. You can feed him small throw away units so they are more clumped up than usual when they consolidate. Most hordes won't spread out 120 models.... .there's only so much time during a game...seriously.
2. If you are good with deepstrike or have icons close by, same thing with TL flamers, tank shock, etc etc etc.

Hell, even hordes may armored targets to shoot at, whatever the AV.

If they don't then just have the oblits support the troopers who will most likely be doing most of the work anyway.

My 7 Cents.

Thanks for the tip with tank shock, totally forgot that one ^^. Here i come Niddies.

I love autocannon Havocs. Its just funky firing off 8 strength 7 ap 4 shots a turn (dakka dakka dakka). And there is the good old Autocannon/Lascannon Pred. Personally i never use oblits and i do just fine. (that is because i would have no idea how to paint them decent, so i just put them off)

Yea my list has Auto Havoc's in it.

Hope it work's out well.

Damn you all, I have to build a squad of 'em tonight. Looks my reaper Autocannons get to be chopped up and put to good use for once...

One idea for heavy support is to take 3 defilers and then screen them with Rhinos so that they get cover saves. It works pretty well.

It will be a LONG time before i can buy 2 more defiler's.


But i like it

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:
Those are great! Personally I'm a big fan of autocannons because of their high volume of fire and decent strength. They can take out all the light armour/MC's which will leave your big guns to deal with AV13/14 threats. S7 isn't great against anything better than AV11, but if you have enough volume isn't anything good enough to get the job done? If you put enough S7 shots on my carnifex he'll eventually fail enough saves, and with such great range he won't be a threat to you for quite some time. My question for you is this though: You have AC havocs to deal with light/massed armour, what do you use for really heavy armour to compliment the havocs?

2 predators with 2 lascannons and autocannons each, 2 dreadnoughts (yes, i thought they sucked too, but not since theyve been crushing land raiders and entire squads of dangerous units ex. khorne bloodletters), a prince and 8 melta guns, all moving 12 inches.

Autocannon Havocs w/ Rhinos and Havoc Launchers are sexy ,but.

4 Meltaguns w/ Rhino and Mark of Khorne are HILARIOUS.

I usually take 2 landraiders and a defiler in my lsits but I put thousand sons in my landraiders, get out rapid fire and charge and that works out well.

It depends on what your army needs the most.

Defilers are great if you just need more pie plates, vindicators are awesome if you need the s10 and ap2 and oblits fill in the gaps nicley along with havocs if you need autocannons.

I will tell you whats a great little unit and that is the Predator it does not get enough love at all.


Autocannon w/ Sponson heavy Bolters ; Havoc Launcher 120 points .


Delicious Goodness.

I had a Predator but it was in my old Iron warrior's Color's.

I've lost my love for dakka preds after 5th ed told them they had to sit still to play with all of their guns.
A shame IMO.

My 7 Cents.

Wait didn't your messed up red rhino use to be a pred before

I use a Laspred. It puts out more Lascannons than anything else in our dex with the best protection. Honestly, the lack of movement is made irrelevant by its 48" range. This is also what puts it leaps and bounds above Meltaguns, because you are able to shut down transports before they get anywhere. It has trouble against hard tanks, but it'll chew through any MC.

By the way, I did a thread on this same subject if you want to check it out: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/251007.page

I don't like preds because of their AV10 rear armor, their lack of being able to take AC sponsons, and their high cost if you load them up with AC+LCsponsons, and they effectively have one wound. Havocs for the same points get 3 wounds and 2x the shots.

Their AV 13 which with the distance of 48inche makes them very viable.

I have never had a problem with them being effective.

Also, they get Autocannon as a base turret. Unless you mean assault cannon which uhm the normal marine one doesnt even get.


Dakka Predators also have the benefit of being able to bring more firepower to bear on a target than a normal Predators with the ability to take Havoc Launchers that are mounted on the turret. So at minimum you are going to get 2 autocannon shots; Havoc Shot both which have 48 inch range; and 3 HB shots.


That range is what is important. Tanks cant break; put it in your back field with rear against hte board edge or terrain and go to town with a 48 inch range.

Darkhound i found that thread very usefull, However I am in favor of Oblit's

Because well I am a EC Noise Marine army, i am pretty much all Anti Infantry Oblits are flexable and that's something great, However were i a Undivided Non Cult army i probably would of fielded Auto Cannon Havoc's

Noise Marine's also lack cc punch this is why i always field a Daemon Prince, and often a Greater Daemon as well

Always was lash but lately i have gotten into Warptime.


Sorry if i resurrected a old topic, but i am newish .

You're definitely not wrong playing a cult army. I'm now over 12,000 points of Emperor's Children and still collecting faster than I can paint it all!

I use 2 defilers and a vindicator in 1850 games, with the aim being to get the defilers in cc. A single battlecannon shot isn't nearly as good at anti-tank as 5-6 S10 close combat attacks at rear armour!

In larger games I use the defiler pair with 3 obliterators, who actually don't spend their time popping tanks. The oblits are far more useful and much more reliable at killing hordes. Hordes of marines with plasmagun/cannons, or hordes of gribblies with t/l flamers. Use icons to deepstrike them and your scatter troubles are over.

My main at-range tankbusting comes from regular CSM squads with 2 meltaguns, and I have combi-meltas on all of my rhinos. Running the odds of a hit, followed by a pen, followed by destroying the enemy doesn't look good, especially since that doesn't factor in that you haven't had your rhino blown up or the weapon shot off yet - but it does make every rhino into an anti-tank threat, and that can mess with the enemy's head really well.

Exactly, and would you ever expect to get melta'd by a rhino? on the receiving end.

Hollismason wrote:Their AV 13 which with the distance of 48inche makes them very viable.

I have never had a problem with them being effective.

Also, they get Autocannon as a base turret. Unless you mean assault cannon which uhm the normal marine one doesnt even get.


Dakka Predators also have the benefit of being able to bring more firepower to bear on a target than a normal Predators with the ability to take Havoc Launchers that are mounted on the turret. So at minimum you are going to get 2 autocannon shots; Havoc Shot both which have 48 inch range; and 3 HB shots.

If you were responding to me yes I meant autocannons. Also,I never said preds were ineffective, just that imo havocs are more effective for the points in many cases. I said they could not take autocannon SPONSONS, not an AC turret(as they get by default). Your dakka pred costs 100 points, and it is not a bad choice by any means. However, in my infantry-based army I take havocs with autocannons. For every 2 havocs I can get one base(no upgrade) pred. For a dakka pred I can get 3. For a LC pred I can get 4. A dakka pred gets 2 more shots than the same points in havocs, but all the havoc shots are longer range and higher strength (whereas only 2 of the dakka preds shots are 48" and 7str). The pred can move and shoot(only shooting 1 weapon of course), which is definitely a bonus, but it loses points for having very poor armor anywhere but in front , which is easily taken care of by a smart player. One good shot at av11 or av10 armor and your 100 points is gone or made useless.

The point is that preds are decent, but the more points you put into them the more value you would get out of having havocs instead. Dakka preds come out almost even to the same points in havocs(with either having benefits over the other), but ac+lcsponson preds are outdone by havocs pretty easily imo. I wish preds had higher all around armor but the av11 side and av10 rear just doesnt cut it for me in today's metagame of anti-vehicle weaponry.

ok ok ok, i've had enough of you guys bashing the land raider. the land raider works wonderfully for my bezekers. if you are using it as a mobile fire platform then your doing something wrong. after you drop off your squad, then you can work on taking out the extra targets. my ork opponent loves to target it with everything he has and never receives so much as a scratch. it gets my men there safely every time.

obliterators are your pocket knife. you need to find the most vulnerable spot and deep strike them there. obviously you gotta know you limitations, taking on a full squad of 30 orks is going to hurt. but, not if you use your twin-linked flamers. if your playing kill points that obviously not a good idea, but 15 or so dead orks in a objective based game is going to help you stop that mob from grabbing an objective, especially if the obliterators get charged after!

obviously if you need anti-tank drop them behind a tank, use the twin-linked meltas. if they scatter too far just use a multi-melta!

currently i use a landraider, a vindicator, and a squad of two obliterators. i'm about to toss the vindicator because its failed me too many times. the tactical precision of obliterators is far too useful to not have around. havocs barely seem worth it. if you drop them in the wrong spot they will probably be spending a few turns trying to get to a good spot, but possibly by then the target you are going for is already gone!

i would rather have 2 twin-linked melta gun shooting the back of a leaman russ rather than 4 lascannons shooting the front of one.

Sneezypanda wrote:ok ok ok, i've had enough of you guys bashing the land raider. the land raider works wonderfully for my bezekers. havocs barely seem worth it. if you drop them in the wrong spot they will probably be spending a few turns trying to get to a good spot, but possibly by then the target you are going for is already gone!

i would rather have 2 twin-linked melta gun shooting the back of a leaman russ rather than 4 lascannons shooting the front of one.

Ok ok ok , I've had enough of you guys bashing the havocs. The havocs work wonderfully for my army. Land raiders barely seem worth it, if you drop it in the wrong spot it will probably be spending a few turns trying to get a good spot, but possibly by then the target you are going for is already gone!

See how that works? =p

Also, part of your theory about havocs is messed up. You would almost never take lascannons. They don't punch vehicles that well compared to melta(which you would take on your regular csm squads), and they are crazy expensive for what they do. Havocs are best with either 4 autocannons (ridiculous amount of str7 48"range 4ap shots for the price) or 2ac+2ml for versatility. Autocannons and missile launchers work pretty well against either tanks or hordes making them very versatile and getting a lot of shots compared to oblits which only get one.

well, its working for my bezerkers :p

i understand that auto cannons and missile launchers are good against light vehicles and anti-hoard.but i think we are just playing completely different lists. being a khorne player i don't really need to worry about infantry, so i need to spend my heavy support options to take out vehicles. i would love to see a sample army list!

Sneezypanda wrote:well, its working for my bezerkers :p

i understand that auto cannons and missile launchers are good against light vehicles and anti-hoard.but i think we are just playing completely different lists. being a khorne player i don't really need to worry about infantry, so i need to spend my heavy support options to take out vehicles. i would love to see a sample army list!

I replaced the words in your opening paragraph with havoc instead of land raider because you got upset about people saying land raiders werent useful and you thought they were. Then the very next thing you say is that havocs arent very good. So don't get upset when people say their opinion =p.

Autocannons are good up to AV13 and the mass of shots increases your chances of hurting vehicles greatly. Missiles can pen av14 but don't have the mass of shots to help but has the advantage of insta-killing toughness 4 and below and the anti-horde missile. So "light vehicle" is a bit incorrect unless you consider anything below av14 light.

Autocannons/plasma guns are only good for one thing IMO. Str of 7...... cause Grandfather Nurgle LOVVVESS those 7's...heh.

__________________

Chaos Hvy support...no matter what the list, will prob. be the next heavily invested Chaos FoC after Troops.

What one picks in hvy support will most likely be complimentary or supplimentary to the abilities of the troops chosen.

Any unit in the hvy support can 'work'.
To answer the OP again: there are alternatives to Oblit/lash. They might not be as flexible or as synergetic as Oblit/lash, but they are functional. It's highly dependent on what's killing what, with repsect to troops/heavys.

My 7 Cents.

Halsfield wrote:
I replaced the words in your opening paragraph with havoc instead of land raider because you got upset about people saying land raiders werent useful and you thought they were. Then the very next thing you say is that havocs arent very good. So don't get upset when people say their opinion =p.

Autocannons are good up to AV13 and the mass of shots increases your chances of hurting vehicles greatly. Missiles can pen av14 but don't have the mass of shots to help but has the advantage of insta-killing toughness 4 and below and the anti-horde missile. So "light vehicle" is a bit incorrect unless you consider anything below av14 light.

i didn't say they were bad per-say :/ sorry, the other forums i've been on haven't talked too highly of havocs. being a khorne player also makes them a horrible unit for me.

Havocs horrible for a Khorne player? God's balls man! How else are you going to get your meltapower in? 4 Meltaguns, MoK and a Champ with a Powerfist. Bam, instant anti-tank and it is great in close combat!

Don't forget the chain sword/axe attachments on the ends of those melta guns.

Chainmeltas!

My 7 Cents.

I glue my meltaguns to my Chaos Space Marine models crotch then have him hold his pistol and CC weapon in either hand.

CROTCH MELTA

why take heavy weapons on havocs? they are chaos marines with 4 special weapons, spam flamers or meltas, stick em in arhino and call it a day. The only reason you would EVER take basic marines is for scoring.

Scoring is a big issue.
The issue can be turned around, why pay essentially the same price for CSM and not score.
The loss of 2 special weapons isn't a huge problem, you can always get a combi-weapon on the champ.

No, the REAL reason you'd want to take havocs is for the multiple heavy weapons, or if you do go with special weapons, you can get more than one but not needing to be a 10 man squad.

But IMO both those reasons are kind of lame when you could just get more troop squads...

My 7 Cents.

or get one five man SIX man squad of each, similarly equiped and stick them in the same rhino?

Oh, and Sanctjud, Puppy God of Corruption Best export of Japan you really dont need to type "My 7 Cents" if it's in your sig, and you might as well make it green while your at it.

Dude if i were khorne I would have 2 whole Land Raider's full of Zerker's getting sent down you'r load and one on a Juggernaught man that is a cool model.

Khorne Demon Prince's are cool too bad they can't have Warptime that would be killer.

I'm new to the forum, hence the 'My 7 Cents', double the penetration power. Plus, 14 cents don't hurt, and still Nurgle's favored number.
________________

@Shadowbrand:
Just a note, Juggys can't get into rides, they are too scared of cages and such.
Only way to run Juggy lord is on foot, sadly.

My 7 Cents.

Aww, for some reason I want to do that, and scream "MORTAL KOMBAT!" when he charges Tau firewarrior's or gretchen.

DarkHound wrote:Havocs horrible for a Khorne player? God's balls man! How else are you going to get your meltapower in? 4 Meltaguns, MoK and a Champ with a Powerfist. Bam, instant anti-tank and it is great in close combat!

i'm going to have to concur that you can do the same with troop choices AND chosen. that way i dont have to use those precious 3 slots for something you can get in two other places and do more, chosen can infiltrate! i'd choose a chosen squad over a havoc squad any day for an anti-tank squad outflanking is too good to pass up.

Havocs and Chosen are almost interchangable. You get to outflank, but you pay for it. If you are starved for Heavy Slots in a Khorne list, get some Terminators and make your Landraiders Elites. Personally, I'd rather not Outflank so much valuable melta incase they don't come on time or come in on the wrong side. On top of that, when the unit shows up it is going to be isolated, where Havocs would be protected by your armies target saturation.

If you want to use normal CSM for tank hunting, be my guest, but you are spending a minimum of 170 points to get 2 Meltaguns. They aren't going to be used as scoring units, because you are chasing tanks with them. It does give you the option to hang them back and capture, but then you aren't hunting tanks. Havocs have a smaller minimum, can take more and don't have a confused objective.

Something to consider are the fire points on a Rhino. Only two models can fire out at a time, but they can do so at the same time as the Rhino is shooting. Giving a unit of Havocs a couple of Heavy weapons and a couple of special weapons means that they can either sit still and provide long ranged support, or move and shoot. A couple of Lascannons and a couple of Melta Guns might make for a decent anti-tank squad.

Two meltaguns two autocannons is pretty sweet in a rhino.

It's kind of expensive though so Eh.


Personally I love playing with 10 havocs and 4 flamers in a rhino.

Two Meltaguns, two Autocannons for a 5 man squad in a Rhino with a Havoc Launcher and Possession. 205 points. Our answer to the Razorback, hah. I'll ask Gwar!, but Possession should allow the crew members to continue firing with the tank through stuns and shaken. That could be something worth looking into, and while it is by no means competative (atleast not until I figure it out) it is hilarious.

Maybe two heavy bolters? No, Rocket Launchers for mass templates!

Havocs with 4 plasma guns are really nice as well.

@Darkhound:
Scoring units don't always have to hang back.
There are objectives that are outside of your own deployment zone.

And just because a squad purchase meltas doesn't mean they have to act like idiots and chase down a tank. They could be a defensive upgrade, for those times when someone tank shocks the squad trying to remove them off THEIR objective...then you get to death and glory, next turn 3-4 meltas in the tanks face to stop it from contesting and such.

My 7 Cents.

DarkHound wrote:Two Meltaguns, two Autocannons for a 5 man squad in a Rhino with a Havoc Launcher and Possession. 205 points. Our answer to the Razorback, hah. I'll ask Gwar!, but Possession should allow the crew members to continue firing with the tank through stuns and shaken. That could be something worth looking into, and while it is by no means competative (atleast not until I figure it out) it is hilarious.

I remember reading that possession doesn't affect troops in transports, i think it was in its entry in the wargear section... i wish i had my codex at work :(

-edit- Darkhound i would disagree on the melta squad for normal CSM...outside competitive play. Melta squad in a rhino works well for grabbing objectives on the other side of the map in a tank/walker heavy army, as long as theres some long range AT too

Yes 2 Meltaguns on your scoring unit works well defensively. That is why I have two on my Plague Marines, but you also need melta weapons dedicated to offense. They have to be chasing tanks because, as the dedicated melta bearers, they are the only ones who can. If there is something worth melting CSM have to be chasing it down (how else are you going to get rid of that Landraider or LRBT?), so their scoring is irrelevant. After you get past that, like I've said before, they have a higher buy in, and less meltas compared to Chosen or Havocs.

You should never be chasing down tanks with meltas, unless youre in complete control of the board and theres nothing else left and youre trying to box them in. Youre just going to get outmaneuvered and will pointlessly be chasing them around the board.

The whole 4x melta gun thing is pointless, because you can have 2x meltas on every squad anyways. There may be situations where its good, such as outflanking an IG line with them, but otherwise the points can be put into guns with other roles.

If you have all melta guns against eldar, youre going to get creamed. You need long range support so they cant just move away and keeping shooting at you. You will never catch their fast vehicles with melta guns (and they have special rules too that make them impossible to kill even if you do).

Havocs should be for long range fire, period. You dont need to lose scoring to get an extra two meltas, especially when the basic CSM squad costs 255 points (meaning youre only going to have 2-3). Give them autocannons/missles/lascannons and make them a threat to everything on the board.

Dont diss my 4 flamers.

If youre talking to me, I think that the 4 flamer chosen is fantastic in the right situation. You can annihilate an entire squad with them.

2X 4 flamer squads in a landraider with MOK? overkill? not against 50 guardsmen. everything else, it is just a pointless show of silly amounts of strength, then again you can keep one squad in the LR and deploy them one at a time.

If you mean two different squads of 4 flamers in a single land raider, youre not allowed to do that. Only 1 squad and ICs may be aboard a transport.

Well... couldn't the IG kill the LR and then the chosen are left on foot, which makes them actually lame.

Like Night Lords says: "4 flamer chosen is fantastic IN THE RIGHT SITUATION" emphasis mine.

Outflanking in a Rhino from the sides or having multiple rhino squads going at the enemy…
I prefer the scoring kind:
10 CSM/or 7-10 Plague marines, Rhino, 2 Flamers, Combi flamer.
3 Templates is decent as well.

My 7 Cents.

Personally I run LR's, Oblits, or my Defiler. Preds normally perform sub-par for me, mostly due to all the anti-tank hate at my store. Dakka pred would be the way to go around where I am, but gotta wait for my new pred in the mail.

Havocs are a nifty idea, but my MAIN issue is that they are so vunerable, thus they will give up an easy VP. Also if I have to move them to get them into position, they can't shoot. If they shoot, but they're in a bad position, I can't move. Thats my primary issue with them. That and they cost so darn much :/

Zid wrote:Personally I run LR's, Oblits, or my Defiler. Preds normally perform sub-par for me, mostly due to all the anti-tank hate at my store. Dakka pred would be the way to go around where I am, but gotta wait for my new pred in the mail.

Havocs are a nifty idea, but my MAIN issue is that they are so vunerable, thus they will give up an easy VP. Also if I have to move them to get them into position, they can't shoot. If they shoot, but they're in a bad position, I can't move. Thats my primary issue with them. That and they cost so darn much :/

How do you see havocs as vulnerable? Every single heavy support option is vulnerable except maybe the LR simply because it can avoid so many types of weapons and some lists may not be able to even have a chance at scratching it, but so many lists today count on SM/CSM players to take LRs that not having the proper anti-vehicle weaponry is rare.

Oblits - Get them in base contact with the proper CC unit and they are taking a dirt nap. You can have all the gun options in the world but it wont save you when all you have is a 2+ and a 5+ invul and 2 wounds on a max of 3 models per squad.

Predators - terrible rear armor, bad side armor, and essentially one wound (and quite a few glance/pen options that will make it useless without needing to actually kill it) means this option if hit from the proper angle is very vunlerable.

Havocs - They're MEQs , the same stat line as basic csm troops. Makes them vulnerable to anti-meq fire which most people count on in tournaments/etc.

Land Raider - LRs are definitely sturdy as hell but they also pay for that in points (essentially the same as a 8-10 man havoc squad, 3-4 preds, or 3 oblits).

So every single option has a counter and downsides. The "best" choice is the one that helps you take on your enemy, and in a tournament where you don't know your opponent the one that can help you be versatile and take on all comers and be prepared for all types of units. In big games my personal favorite is 2 squads of havocs (either both 4x autocannons and 4x regular marines, or 4x ML and 4x AC or mix 2ml+2ac ) and 1 squad of 3 oblits (they fill in with whatever weapons you need, without cutting down your shot count too much). Having a large squad of havocs allows you to take cheap but still effective weapons like the missile launcher and autocannon in large numbers and have extra squad members to take hits. Plus the idea is to keep the enemy focused on your core block of troops/elites/hq , not your heavy support .

Halsfield wrote:

Zid wrote:Personally I run LR's, Oblits, or my Defiler. Preds normally perform sub-par for me, mostly due to all the anti-tank hate at my store. Dakka pred would be the way to go around where I am, but gotta wait for my new pred in the mail.

Havocs are a nifty idea, but my MAIN issue is that they are so vunerable, thus they will give up an easy VP. Also if I have to move them to get them into position, they can't shoot. If they shoot, but they're in a bad position, I can't move. Thats my primary issue with them. That and they cost so darn much :/

How do you see havocs as vulnerable? Every single heavy support option is vulnerable except maybe the LR simply because it can avoid so many types of weapons and some lists may not be able to even have a chance at scratching it, but so many lists today count on SM/CSM players to take LRs that not having the proper anti-vehicle weaponry is rare.

Oblits - Get them in base contact with the proper CC unit and they are taking a dirt nap. You can have all the gun options in the world but it wont save you when all you have is a 2+ and a 5+ invul and 2 wounds on a max of 3 models per squad.

Predators - terrible rear armor, bad side armor, and essentially one wound (and quite a few glance/pen options that will make it useless without needing to actually kill it) means this option if hit from the proper angle is very vunlerable.

Havocs - They're MEQs , the same stat line as basic csm troops. Makes them vulnerable to anti-meq fire which most people count on in tournaments/etc.

Land Raider - LRs are definitely sturdy as hell but they also pay for that in points (essentially the same as a 8-10 man havoc squad, 3-4 preds, or 3 oblits).

So every single option has a counter and downsides. The "best" choice is the one that helps you take on your enemy, and in a tournament where you don't know your opponent the one that can help you be versatile and take on all comers and be prepared for all types of units. In big games my personal favorite is 2 squads of havocs (either both 4x autocannons and 4x regular marines, or 4x ML and 4x AC or mix 2ml+2ac ) and 1 squad of 3 oblits (they fill in with whatever weapons you need, without cutting down your shot count too much). Having a large squad of havocs allows you to take cheap but still effective weapons like the missile launcher and autocannon in large numbers and have extra squad members to take hits. Plus the idea is to keep the enemy focused on your core block of troops/elites/hq , not your heavy support .

Oh I realize EVERYTHING has a weakness. If they didn't the game wouldn't balance itself out, eh? My issue is that havocs lack mobility, which is huge in this game. The fact you can move your vehicles and shoot is key, oblits have every wep you could want and can still move if you want (and have termi saves none the less). Yeah, if you wanna sit havocs in a tower or a piece of terrain and shoot up, that works great. But I have a very aggressive, mobile playstyle, and I love armys that can move and adapt to the field. Things that present a threat no matter how you place things. I'm not saying Havocs aren't good. They pack a punch and can rape face, just like SM dev squads. But the lack of mobility, and being squishy as well, is MY issue with em.

And yeah, oblits fail at CC :( they should have had lightning claws or something

They should have morphable CC wep's

and t5 really i mean their damn pricey.

Zid:

So if you want mobile Havocs, take four special weapons, like four Melta Guns or four Plasma Guns. Or split the difference of two special and two Heavy.

Zid wrote:
Oh I realize EVERYTHING has a weakness. If they didn't the game wouldn't balance itself out, eh? My issue is that havocs lack mobility, which is huge in this game. The fact you can move your vehicles and shoot is key, oblits have every wep you could want and can still move if you want (and have termi saves none the less). Yeah, if you wanna sit havocs in a tower or a piece of terrain and shoot up, that works great. But I have a very aggressive, mobile playstyle, and I love armys that can move and adapt to the field. Things that present a threat no matter how you place things. I'm not saying Havocs aren't good. They pack a punch and can rape face, just like SM dev squads. But the lack of mobility, and being squishy as well, is MY issue with em.

And yeah, oblits fail at CC :( they should have had lightning claws or something

Moving 4 or 5 inches a turn with oblits is mobile? Dont make me laugh. I play a fast army too, where 96% of it can move 12", and I use havocs with autocannons. No problem at all with them, If you have to move them, then youre most likely slaughtering your opponent anyways unless you placed them in a bad spot.

Havocs are also the cheapest and least vulnerable out of all the HS options (other than a LR). You wont lose 225 points of havocs to 3 meltas like you will oblits.

You can with havocs.
Failed morale test and running away while being escorted.

Oblits and havocs will get cover saves, but out of it, oblits still get their inv.

Again, one pays for flexibility in specialization with Oblits. Havocs are geared towards a goal (which can be flexible, but not as specialized as oblits).

Oblits are mobile, 4-5 inches over 5-7 turns is much better than 0 inches.
In addition, they are not newbs in Dawn of War situations...

My 7 Cents.

Havocs can buy an Invulnerable save, and a transport, which is better protection, mobility, and extra firepower. Plus, having more wounds and fighting at I4 (and maybe I5) gives them much more close combat survivability.

Being able to redeploy 12" a turn far exceeds Slow and Purposeful in terms of mobility, particularly in Dawn of War scenarios.

I think the distinction to make between Havocs and Obliterators is the difference in roles. There are simply things that one unit can do that the other cannot, such as Deep Strike, carry Icons, carry Grenades, and so on.

Definitely a lot of good posts from the previous 3 posters, exactly my thoughts on the units. Every squad fills a role and has weaknesses and I think a mix helps round your army out and cover your weaknesses. There are no "useless" or "insta-win" heavy support options like some people seem to think (ie people taking all oblits/etc). I constantly see people favoring oblits over havocs and I just don't think they have looked at all the angles.

Zid wrote:

Zid wrote:
Havocs are a nifty idea, but my MAIN issue is that they are so vunerable, thus they will give up an easy VP.

Oh I realize EVERYTHING has a weakness. If they didn't the game wouldn't balance itself out, eh?

Do you see the problem with what you said and why I pointed out that every unit has a vulnerability? Saying you don't take a unit because they are vulnerable implies you think the other options are sturdier, and they are not(again, except maybe for the LR, which has its own problems).

@shadowbrand:

I am hoping for some iron warriors love in the legion codex that is upcoming. Iron warriors can have the ability to morph their hands into any weapons they choose (similar to oblits, but not as wild) so they might have something like that. Where you might have a champion that can choose between a variety of heavy/special/close combat weapons every turn. Why oblits can only morph shooting weapons I don't know either.

Night Lords wrote:

Zid wrote:
Oh I realize EVERYTHING has a weakness. If they didn't the game wouldn't balance itself out, eh? My issue is that havocs lack mobility, which is huge in this game. The fact you can move your vehicles and shoot is key, oblits have every wep you could want and can still move if you want (and have termi saves none the less). Yeah, if you wanna sit havocs in a tower or a piece of terrain and shoot up, that works great. But I have a very aggressive, mobile playstyle, and I love armys that can move and adapt to the field. Things that present a threat no matter how you place things. I'm not saying Havocs aren't good. They pack a punch and can rape face, just like SM dev squads. But the lack of mobility, and being squishy as well, is MY issue with em.

And yeah, oblits fail at CC :( they should have had lightning claws or something

Moving 4 or 5 inches a turn with oblits is mobile? Dont make me laugh. I play a fast army too, where 96% of it can move 12", and I use havocs with autocannons. No problem at all with them, If you have to move them, then youre most likely slaughtering your opponent anyways unless you placed them in a bad spot.

Havocs are also the cheapest and least vulnerable out of all the HS options (other than a LR). You wont lose 225 points of havocs to 3 meltas like you will oblits.

Oh, I agree. But i rather move and shoot than shoot or move, period. I'm not denying the power of havocs, its just as devestating as dev squads, but they aren't mobile in the least. I face a LOT of SM and things to realize this, and plasma cannons own!

@ halsfield:

I realize what I said, but I rather be able to move and shoot every turn if I have to, even if its 3 inches. Its a personal preference. I'm not denying Havocs overall are better. But even mathhammer won't make me wanna play them anymore.

Zid wrote:

@ halsfield:

I realize what I said, but I rather be able to move and shoot every turn if I have to, even if its 3 inches. Its a personal preference. I'm not denying Havocs overall are better. But even mathhammer won't make me wanna play them anymore.

It is 100% fine if it is your personal preference, but the havocs arent more vulnerable(you've said this 2x now without backing it up) or less mobile. The option to run and take a rhino easily beats the oblit on mobility. Is mobility really necessary for their role in most games? No. Also, if you can't see your opponent the first turn and need to move to get a shot off, the oblits could potentially never get in position whereas the havocs can run/rhino and get there in a turn easily.

If you are going to deep strike you oblits into close combat I think that is a poor usage for them. They are going to get massacred and the expensive 225pt 3man squad is going down like a wet paper bag despite term/invul saves. Terminators with the proper combi-weapons or an assault loadout would be a better usage of points (almost 2 terms for one oblit). Chosen with the proper special weapons infiltrating or outflank + rhino would also be an excellent choice for that role.

Also, since when is a basic strategy discussion mathhammer? Mathhammer is when you bring out the calculator and start finding out exactly how many wounds per shot you are going to get and how many shots your armor will deflect/etc and basing your strategy around that. I'm not doing that and I don't think anyone else is either. You could say we are theoryhammering, but that implies you are supporting theories that you havent really tested/used in a real game which again isnt really the case.

Halsfield wrote:

Zid wrote:

@ halsfield:

I realize what I said, but I rather be able to move and shoot every turn if I have to, even if its 3 inches. Its a personal preference. I'm not denying Havocs overall are better. But even mathhammer won't make me wanna play them anymore.

It is 100% fine if it is your personal preference, but the havocs arent more vulnerable(you've said this 2x now without backing it up) or less mobile. The option to run and take a rhino easily beats the oblit on mobility. Is mobility really necessary for their role in most games? No. Also, if you can't see your opponent the first turn and need to move to get a shot off, the oblits could potentially never get in position whereas the havocs can run/rhino and get there in a turn easily.

If you are going to deep strike you oblits into close combat I think that is a poor usage for them. They are going to get massacred and the expensive 225pt 3man squad is going down like a wet paper bag despite term/invul saves. Terminators with the proper combi-weapons or an assault loadout would be a better usage of points (almost 2 terms for one oblit). Chosen with the proper special weapons infiltrating or outflank + rhino would also be an excellent choice for that role.

Also, since when is a basic strategy discussion mathhammer? Mathhammer is when you bring out the calculator and start finding out exactly how many wounds per shot you are going to get and how many shots your armor will deflect/etc and basing your strategy around that. I'm not doing that and I don't think anyone else is either. You could say we are theoryhammering, but that implies you are supporting theories that you havent really tested/used in a real game which again isnt really the case.

I was saying that based on mathhammer Havocs will do a assload more damage than Oblits in almost any scenerio. I only shoot with my blits anyway.

The reason I state that Havocs are more vunerable is; a bit worse save, no base invun, just a normal marine. Oblits are termis with 2 wounds. However, you could also argue the case that oblits get hit by a lascannon its an insta gib. Havocs get hit and you lose a dude with a bolter before you lose any "good" stuff.

I'm just saying my pref is with Oblits. Not because everyone runs them, but I personally like them, and the flavor of how they play is top notch. I mean what else gets a mutating arm that turns into giant cannons?

Sorry if I was unclear, I was pretty hammered last night haha

Considering 95% of the time it's AT fire shooting the havocs (theyre almost the only things that can keep in range with them, aside from snipers), youre still only going to get that 4+ cover save. The difference is havocs will have 8+ wounds instead of 3, and cost far, far less.

Night Lords wrote:Considering 95% of the time it's AT fire shooting the havocs (theyre almost the only things that can keep in range with them, aside from snipers), youre still only going to get that 4+ cover save. The difference is havocs will have 8+ wounds instead of 3, and cost far, far less.

This is true, and another thing I kept in mind. But it also depends on the board layout as well... I def wanna get some more Havocs tho, don't get me wrong. In games like Planetstrike and Apoc they will kill far more than their points worth, and in games like that mobility isn't as much of an issue (well at least defending in PS)

Zid:

Is that a Metric ass-load, or an Imperial ass-load? I'm just asking because my ass is calibrated for metric...

I'm thinking about taking a dreadyy or a LR

Havoc's maybe and I already have 3 old Iron Warrior's with Auto Cannon's.

So my Tourny list will be Iron Warrior/EC

Night Lords wrote:Considering 95% of the time it's AT fire shooting the havocs (theyre almost the only things that can keep in range with them, aside from snipers), youre still only going to get that 4+ cover save. The difference is havocs will have 8+ wounds instead of 3, and cost far, far less.

No body will do this. The AT fire will the aiming at your transports. Havocs will get all the obscene amounts of long ranged anti-infantry fire, like battlecannon, plasma cannon, scatter lasers, multi-lasers, heavy boltets, barbed stranglers and everything else that isnt good for killing tanks but great at killing T4 infantry. If you lose two havocs you also have to start taking morale tests, which will see them running, and at the very least make them unable to use their weapons for a turn or two. Never discount fearlessness, especially when dealing with heavy weapons.

Regwon wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Considering 95% of the time it's AT fire shooting the havocs (theyre almost the only things that can keep in range with them, aside from snipers), youre still only going to get that 4+ cover save. The difference is havocs will have 8+ wounds instead of 3, and cost far, far less.

No body will do this. The AT fire will the aiming at your transports. Havocs will get all the obscene amounts of long ranged anti-infantry fire, like battlecannon, plasma cannon, scatter lasers, multi-lasers, heavy boltets, barbed stranglers and everything else that isnt good for killing tanks but great at killing T4 infantry. If you lose two havocs you also have to start taking morale tests, which will see them running, and at the very least make them unable to use their weapons for a turn or two. Never discount fearlessness, especially when dealing with heavy weapons.

With icon and champ, theres a 0.6% chance they will run, or in other words, once every 144 times.

As for those things, marines will still shrug them off better than oblits can, or theyre just not a concern (heavy bolters might kill 1 marine...maybe).

So now you have to increase their points cost to make up for their deficiencies. It means that 8 havocs with autocannon cost basically the same as 3 oblits. Wasnt one of your major sticking points that they cost less? The same points for something that is only good against light vehicles and light infantry? That doesnt sound that that good a deal any more.

That's one way of looking at it.

But if you keep things really cheap like:

6 guys 3-4 hvy weapons and stick them in a high building out of the way of anything else.
160-180 points that will either be ignored by the enemy because it's not scoring, or be taking alot of shooting, but having cover saves is a nice thing.

/shrug. Not eveybody will be satified with anything in our Hvy support as there are many options of death dealing.

I usually would take oblits and defilers over anything else in the hvy slot at the very least because they are unique to chaos.
Vindis, LR, Havocs, Preds all 'work' with varying degrees of cost effectiveness.

Basically...look at your troops, they come first. Then purchase hvy support with respect to supporting the troops. Very basic, and prob. doesn't answer the question in any satisfactory way, but there's no other answer.

Personal taste comes into the matter.
More bodies/less bodies.
More armor/less armor.
Long range/short range.
Flexibility/Focused roles.

Answers only the individual can answer.

My 7 Cents.

I think it's the mark of a good codex that Codex: Chaos Space Marines has so many live options in the Heavy Support section of its army list.

I have to admit that I love my Havoc squads precisely because they are made from Devastator Marines with Berzerker Helmets.

Regwon wrote:So now you have to increase their points cost to make up for their deficiencies. It means that 8 havocs with autocannon cost basically the same as 3 oblits. Wasnt one of your major sticking points that they cost less? The same points for something that is only good against light vehicles and light infantry? That doesnt sound that that good a deal any more.

10 points doesnt suddenly make them overpriced.

Eh... I wouldn't say good.
Though I defend the 'carebear' approach to things my kneejerk reaction is to say:

/mini rant

DaemonPrince.
Plague marines.
CSM.
Rhino's.
Oblits.

All you will ever need in the CSM Codex.

Fast attack? What Fast Attack?
Elites? Non-fearless termies reduced to suicidal deepstrikes and chosen that only have one viable way of using (mech).
Troops: Lesser daemons? Really?
Thousand Sons? Nerf stick Check.
Quadruple costing Blastmaster?
Independent characters? What are those?

Spawn...really, no... I mean seriously..?

Then we have hvy support...
Oblits = plasma cannons and multi-meltas... kings of killing almost everything in 40K.
Havocs = non scoring CSM...think about it... you have hvy weapons sure, but you could just get a scoring unit with special weapons...eat up a Troop choice instead of a heavy.
Defilers/land raiders have identity crisis... one's also too big for cover while the other is missing out on so many things the loyalists get.
Pred Chassis's were nerfed by 5th ed.

That's the normal stuff that people have issues with as I see it with the CSM codex. I realldy wouldn't say it's a 'good' codex, esp. loss of legions...the lack of smurf love with our named characters..

/mini rant off.

My 7 Cents.

I agree with a lot of your points. However, I feel that you are not taking into consideration an army that can work together at less points and achieve the same goal, or even do it more efficiently.

I agree that there are some completely useless units that are outperformed by another unit in nearly every way (Lord -> Prince, Possessed -> Zerkers). However, certain units like Dreadnoughts and Raptors get shunned when they provide a very unique role.

Raptors can jump over impassable terrain, get to the rear armour of a vehicle (against Wave serpents theyre great), and can charge a unit 18" away.

Dreadnoughts are cheap armour that simply cant be ignored even if they do go crazy. 100 points for an armour 12 walker is a great choice in my army because I have so many big dangerous things at such a cheap cost that everything is expendable yet deadly.

Oblits have multimeltas and plasma cannons, yes, but I dont need either of them if the rest of my army already does a great job with dealing with those units. I have 8 meltas in my list as is, why do I need more? What I need to do is to slow the enemy down so I can outmaneuver them with my fast army. So I take autocannon havocs to easily destroy transports and then the game is in my control.

Theres a difference between taking the single best unit and the best list. In my opinion simply taking the single best option doesnt get you the best results overall.

Regwon wrote:So now you have to increase their points cost to make up for their deficiencies. It means that 8 havocs with autocannon cost basically the same as 3 oblits. Wasnt one of your major sticking points that they cost less? The same points for something that is only good against light vehicles and light infantry? That doesnt sound that that good a deal any more.

That, and 1 failed 3+ armor save often has you losing one of the heavy weapons you paid 20+ points for. Oblits *are* more resilient than Havocs, and if your opponent is forced to use his long range AT to take them out, your rhinos are getting free turns of movement.

That's the normal stuff that people have issues with as I see it with the CSM codex. I realldy wouldn't say it's a 'good' codex, esp. loss of legions...the lack of smurf love with our named characters..

It's not that CSM is a bad codex, although it tends to have trouble with a variety of fast, long-range mech armies (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Skimmer IG), it's that its most viable options are so few that any competitive list looks really bland and generic. Most attempts at creativity with the Chaos Codex get pummeled in a mirror match against the bland, generic elements.

I have 8 meltas in my list as is, why do I need more?

That's not nearly enough meltas for a 5th ed game of 1750+ points unless you have a significant amount of alternative AT fire, like 3x Vet squads with 9x meltas in 3x Vendettas with 9x lascannons. And it's quite possible that you do if you're taking minimal Havoc squads with ACs, but 8 meltas is far under the bar.

Yeah i think they were like Fast Attack gak I FORGOT TO THrOW IN FAST ATTACK QUICK PUT THIS IN

Daemon Princes don't have access to non-psychic shooting, Terminator Armour, Personal Icons, Steeds of Chaos, or Daemon Weapons, and aren't Independent Characters. Lords are better at what they do, which is bolster squads, and Daemon Princes are better at what they do, which is provide a Monstrous Creature.

Likewise Possessed and Berzerkers: Possessed are all about providing an accompanying Independent Character with Fearless, an Invulnerable unit, cheap Daemon hosts, customizable Icons, and Daemonkin rules. If you use them instead of Berzerkers for the role of assaulting objectives, then you're using them wrong. Likewise if you let Greater Daemons possess your Skull Champions, or you have your Sorcerer accompany your Berzerkers, then you're wasting your Berzerkers on a role better filled by Possessed. They're also better for accompanying Kharn, thanks to their invulnerable save, and his ability to nuke vehicles, and they don't take up a Troops choice that could be better filled by more flexible Chaos Space Marines.

Dreadnoughts are shunned because people misunderstand their rules. Let's not go into that though...

Raptors, well, basically what Night Lords said. They can do that 18" charge without a Land Raider, which is something many people underestimate. Plus their ability to carry Melta Guns means they're very well suited to attacking and cracking transports and bunkers and similar.

Chosen, just to go into them, work very nicely either as infiltrators with heavy shooting armaments like an Autocannon and four Plasma Guns, besides tank-hunting with Melta Guns, or acting as a beacon for Terminators, Lesser Daemons, and Obliterators to Deep Strike on target. You can double-down on Havocs with them, having up to six (6!) units roaming around with 4+ special weapons.

Defilers have an improved version of Extra Armour, have Smoke Launchers to protect their advance, a Battlecannon to make them impossible to ignore, and are great at pouncing on enemy units, as their speed and agility lets them move parallel to the enemy as well as simply closing with them. As a bullet-magnet, they are superb.

Land Raiders likewise have the opportunity to take Daemon Possession, a range of pintle-mounted weapons, with Twin-Linked ordinary weapons to make the lower BS practically irrelevant, and you can take more of them than loyalist Space Marines. When I've used them I find that they're best sitting back and pegging enemy transports with Twin-Linked Lascannons, and then enemy troops with Havoc Launcher and Heavy Bolters, until you can launch them forwards to mop up the remains. The best part is that their sheer size means that you can hide Rhinos with troops behind them, ready to capture objectives later in the game.

sourclams wrote:

I have 8 meltas in my list as is, why do I need more?

That's not nearly enough meltas for a 5th ed game of 1750+ points unless you have a significant amount of alternative AT fire... but 8 meltas is far under the bar.

BS. Even though I have alternative AT fire, having 4 squads with 2 meltas each is hardly below the bar. Thats over 1000 points (over half the list) of basic troops with the maximum number of meltas each. Seeing as the only way to really up the amount of meltas is through havocs and chosen (both of which would be wasted points), I fail to see how thats not enough as is. You cannot have an entire army of meltas because you will get destroyed by anything thats quick. You'll never be able to catch up to eldar, nor will you be able to do anything to gun line armies. You need lascannons and autocannons (and maybe missles, I dont like them) in the back taking down key threats to allow your boys to move up the field.

Oblits are rarely within 12" of an enemy vehicle to make the multimelta worth it. Again, its unnecessary points spent on versatility that you really dont need, as other units working together do a better job.

Night Lords wrote:

Oblits are rarely within 12" of an enemy vehicle to make the multimelta worth it. Again, its unnecessary points spent on versatility that you really dont need, as other units working together do a better job.

Deep Striking is the idea with this. Appear behind an LR and it's dead. Icons help, as do good scatter rolls I will admit though.

I like Deep Strike.

That said, I find it only really works when the enemy does not already have their army on the board, because if you hold units back to Deep Strike then you're essentially handicapping yourself that many points until they show up. Barring special rules like Tigurius' Gift of Prescience, you're pretty unsure of when they'll show up, and you have to plan for both contingencies.

In the meantime, you have to fight the enemy with one hand tied behind your back, and hope that the time your Obliterators could have spent shooting at the enemy is somehow made up when they do appear. And that's ignoring the risk of non-Icon enabled drops.

I've found that about three turns of shooting a Land Raider with four Lascannons is about as effective, and much more reliable, than hoping your Obliterators will drop in turn 3, burn the Land Raider with Melta weapons, and then survive the ensuing assault or counter-melta fire (since they're conveniently dropped into Melta range...).

You really need to load up on concurrent units like Terminators, Possessed, Chosen, and Lesser Daemons: The Terminators/Possessed/Chosen to carry an Icon to make their Deep Strike reliable, and Lesser Daemons to provide a shooting and assault screen for the Obliterators to do their thing with being where you opponent wants them.

Night Lords wrote:

BS. Even though I have alternative AT fire, having 4 squads with 2 meltas each is hardly below the bar. Thats over 1000 points (over half the list) of basic troops with the maximum number of meltas each. Seeing as the only way to really up the amount of meltas is through havocs and chosen (both of which would be wasted points), I fail to see how thats not enough as is. You cannot have an entire army of meltas because you will get destroyed by anything thats quick. You'll never be able to catch up to eldar, nor will you be able to do anything to gun line armies. You need lascannons and autocannons (and maybe missles, I dont like them) in the back taking down key threats to allow your boys to move up the field.

Oblits are rarely within 12" of an enemy vehicle to make the multimelta worth it. Again, its unnecessary points spent on versatility that you really dont need, as other units working together do a better job.

IF you have sufficient anti-tank then 8 meltas is enough, but arent you running havocs with autocannon? so that means your only way to deal with AV13+ vehicles is through those 8 meltas. I would hardly say that that is enough anti-tank. At the very least its going to take you a couple of turns to get into melta range, presuming you move all your scoring units up the board so that they dont just get shot out of their transports. In the meantime theres going to be all sorts of nastyness coming your way.

Also, lots of armies are taking transports these days, so they they can get troops closer to objectives. So if your opponent is driving his transport hell-for-leather at your objective then it is quite likely that at some point hes going to be within 12" of your oblits. Remember you also cant target units inside transports, even though they can still score, so destroying the transport become a top priority. At that range 3 multi-meltas completely outclass every other form of anti-tank available to CSM. Then there will even be plasma cannon to deal with anything that falls out next turn.

Nurglitch wrote:I like Deep Strike.

That said, I find it only really works when the enemy does not already have their army on the board, because if you hold units back to Deep Strike then you're essentially handicapping yourself that many points until they show up. Barring special rules like Tigurius' Gift of Prescience, you're pretty unsure of when they'll show up, and you have to plan for both contingencies.

In the meantime, you have to fight the enemy with one hand tied behind your back, and hope that the time your Obliterators could have spent shooting at the enemy is somehow made up when they do appear. And that's ignoring the risk of non-Icon enabled drops.

I've found that about three turns of shooting a Land Raider with four Lascannons is about as effective, and much more reliable, than hoping your Obliterators will drop in turn 3, burn the Land Raider with Melta weapons, and then survive the ensuing assault or counter-melta fire (since they're conveniently dropped into Melta range...).

You really need to load up on concurrent units like Terminators, Possessed, Chosen, and Lesser Daemons: The Terminators/Possessed/Chosen to carry an Icon to make their Deep Strike reliable, and Lesser Daemons to provide a shooting and assault screen for the Obliterators to do their thing with being where you opponent wants them.

Whats wrong with giving an icon to some plague marines or berzerkers. They can hold them just as well. That said deepstiking my oblits have never done me any favours. I think its an option but not one that should be used often. However, a squad of 6 havocs with lascannon almost the same as 3 oblits, but dont have 2+ armour saves, 5+ inv saves, arent fearless and can only use one gun. They do have one extra lascannon though. Overall i dont think that its worth it. You have to pay extra points to make sure that the havocs dont run away if they get shot at and they die faster anyway.

I like my Havocs. I use the same configuration up to 1500 points in all my games ...

5 Havocs, 3 Melta, 1 Flamer in a Rhino ... 145 pts.
or
5 Havocs, 3 Flamer, 1 Melta in a Rhino ... 135 pts.
or
5 Havocs, 2 Flamer, 2 Melta in a Rhino ... 140 pts. ( my favorite )

Mobile, efficient Now, this works well depending on what else you field but I use two or three squads of them. The only problem with multiple Rhinos is kill points ... but it's your opponents problem too if you take out their tanks and they can't touch you anymore.

I'm not too worried about scoring troops ... you can always take PMs to fill in your list.

Night Lords wrote:

sourclams wrote:

I have 8 meltas in my list as is, why do I need more?

That's not nearly enough meltas for a 5th ed game of 1750+ points unless you have a significant amount of alternative AT fire... but 8 meltas is far under the bar.

BS. Even though I have alternative AT fire, having 4 squads with 2 meltas each is hardly below the bar. Thats over 1000 points (over half the list) of basic troops with the maximum number of meltas each.

Then you don't play the same people I do. I ran mech IG versus a chaos player with nine oblits, two Tzeentch princes, and four (five?) squads of minimal Plague Marines with 2 meltas each and blew him off the table in an Annihilation scenario.

I often play Chaos Marines with 9x Termicide and max meltas spread across my Rhino squads, plus Oblits, and it still doesn't feel like enough against certain good players with good 5th ed lists. The bar is far, far higher than 8 meltaguns.

Your statement about spending 1000 points to get 8 meltaguns exemplifies my viewpoint perfectly; you can't dedicate 1,000 points of your list to any AV13/14 that you might encounter and only have 8 meltaguns. The other 32 men are worthless until you bust the Land Raider open. Termicides and even Rhinos with combi meltas are a cheaper way to double up on AT fire, and necessary in 5th ed against good mech lists. Melta density is just as important as melta quantity, and basic CSM lack both. They're backup AT, not primary AT. Both are necessary.

Oblits are rarely within 12" of an enemy vehicle to make the multimelta worth it. Again, its unnecessary points spent on versatility that you really dont need, as other units working together do a better job.

Oblits are often in range due to rhino-borne icons and deep strike. Oblits aren't exempt from the 'work together to gain synergy' that we're attributing to the rest of the HS choices. In my experience, Deep Strike is the best way to run them unless you're facing off against predominantly AV10-12.

IF you have sufficient anti-tank then 8 meltas is enough, but arent you running havocs with autocannon? so that means your only way to deal with AV13+ vehicles is through those 8 meltas. I would hardly say that that is enough anti-tank. At the very least its going to take you a couple of turns to get into melta range, presuming you move all your scoring units up the board so that they dont just get shot out of their transports. In the meantime theres going to be all sorts of nastyness coming your way.

Also, lots of armies are taking transports these days, so they they can get troops closer to objectives. So if your opponent is driving his transport hell-for-leather at your objective then it is quite likely that at some point hes going to be within 12" of your oblits. Remember you also cant target units inside transports, even though they can still score, so destroying the transport become a top priority. At that range 3 multi-meltas completely outclass every other form of anti-tank available to CSM. Then there will even be plasma cannon to deal with anything that falls out next turn.

QFT+3.

It's really turned into more of a debate then helping me. ;(

If you consider the various opinions being promoted here, and weigh them against each other, then you may find it helps you.

@Shadowbrand:

Original Post

Lately my Obliterator's have failed me. Deep striking to their death's failing to hit thing's with their wep's I always field a defiler, but alone it isn't very competitive.

I am thinking of having Havoc's with launcher's or fielding my Land Raider.

Are their alternative's to the Lash/Oblit list, or was i foolhardy for making a Cult marine army?

Oblits failed you… could it have been you failed the oblits?
Why are you deepstriking, they should be walking from your deployment zone sowing death with plasma cannon fire then multimelta.
Leave the deepstrike special weapons to terminators.

Havocs with Launchers: flexible but highly meh.
Land Raider: what are you transporting in it? It’s a hvy support, but it’s main purpose is to transport a squad into combat, gun boat second……
The fire power of the LR is not gonna be as useful as the three Oblits’ firepower.

This whole ‘discussion’ has been about alternatives to Lash/Oblit……

In addition… what’s the rest of your list, what points, how many oblits are you giving up… what happen to the oblits.
If you don’t give us more information, we can only discuss things in over simplifications.

My 7 Cents.

I have 6 dreads in my Chaos army. Though I may remodel them to have x2 CCW, rather than an assortment of shooty things as they do now.

I have 5, 5 man Havoc units. One with 4 AC, 1 with 4 HB, 1 with 3 LC and 1 PC, and one with 2 flamers and 2 plasma guns (I ran out of heavy weapons at this point ).

Since my 8 CSM troop squads are only 7 men strong, it means I can sub in some HW or extra special weapons in regular sized games if I want to.

I only have 2 oblits as while they are nice I have other models to take their place, rather than spending more £ on some more Oblits, I can use and convert the stuff I already have.

I have to admit not being a big player, and my CSM army has never seen combat, so I have no idea how well it would do in an actual game.

Sanctjud wrote:
/mini rant

DaemonPrince.
Plague marines.
CSM.
Rhino's.
Oblits.

All you will ever need in the CSM Codex.

Fast attack? What Fast Attack?
Elites? Non-fearless termies reduced to suicidal deepstrikes and chosen that only have one viable way of using (mech).
Troops: Lesser daemons? Really?
Thousand Sons? Nerf stick Check.
Quadruple costing Blastmaster?
Independent characters? What are those?

Spawn...really, no... I mean seriously..?

Then we have hvy support...
Oblits = plasma cannons and multi-meltas... kings of killing almost everything in 40K.
Havocs = non scoring CSM...think about it... you have hvy weapons sure, but you could just get a scoring unit with special weapons...eat up a Troop choice instead of a heavy.
Defilers/land raiders have identity crisis... one's also too big for cover while the other is missing out on so many things the loyalists get.
Pred Chassis's were nerfed by 5th ed.

That's the normal stuff that people have issues with as I see it with the CSM codex. I realldy wouldn't say it's a 'good' codex, esp. loss of legions...the lack of smurf love with our named characters..

/mini rant off.

I fully agree with you... as does the other guy who plays chaos in my gaming group. Everyone else is confused when i burst into cursing when i read the SM codex T_T

i play no competitive, and am limited by models, but my havocs have served me well. They aren't a core part of my army and truthfully, they could be swapped out for something more competitive/better suited for the role, but... they've earned their place. I basically wanted a squad to sit back and shoot anything up to AV13, infantry, and transports. 6 mang squad with 2 ML/2 AC. For 20 points more i could get 2 oblits, but they have gotten no where near the kill ratio sitting back. The oblits were godly for "icon Deepstrike/melta the trukk/next one twinlinked flamer the boyz that survived", but they aren't going to sit on the other side of the map and be as effective. Pred with Lascannon sponsons is something else i am a fan of, but thats honestly because i am not the proud owner of a Landraider. True the Pred doesn't seem half as tank as a space marine tank...well... should be? But its soaked up missle/lascannon shots and spat hot death at transports, so it works for me.

Again- only a casual player here. But a good hint for other casuals...

sourclams wrote:Termicides and even Rhinos with combi meltas are a cheaper way to double up on AT fire, and necessary in 5th ed against good mech lists. Melta density is just as important as melta quantity

If you want, nay, if you NEED to take out a vehicle, don't trust 1 lascannon. dont trust 1 melta gun. Try to make sure your AT fire can focus on one vehicle at a time, and mech lists will become alot less painful than they can be!

Well I guess I am being too fussy my Die failed me not the Oblit's.

Right now i'm running

Daemon Prince with Warp time

3 9 man Noise Marine Sqaud's with sonic blaster's Doom siren's and power wep's/fist, made moblie with Rhino's.

A Chaos Dreadyy with a plasma cannon or Multi-Melta

And 3-4 Oblit's in higher point game's I use 2 pair's

A Defiler with reaper and cc arm

My Oblit's just have had some bad luck, A gunline though sound's neat. I have used them to that effect before, But Flanking them with my Prince and Summoning in the Oblit's with Tled Melta gun's and BOOM no more Tank!

*I'm lazy and did'nt post the point's I know bad Shadow But I can edit them in anytime, I usually play 1700-1500 which is what my army is mostly centered around*

sourclams wrote:

Night Lords wrote:

sourclams wrote:

I have 8 meltas in my list as is, why do I need more?

That's not nearly enough meltas for a 5th ed game of 1750+ points unless you have a significant amount of alternative AT fire... but 8 meltas is far under the bar.

BS. Even though I have alternative AT fire, having 4 squads with 2 meltas each is hardly below the bar. Thats over 1000 points (over half the list) of basic troops with the maximum number of meltas each.

Then you don't play the same people I do. I ran mech IG versus a chaos player with nine oblits, two Tzeentch princes, and four (five?) squads of minimal Plague Marines with 2 meltas each and blew him off the table in an Annihilation scenario.

I often play Chaos Marines with 9x Termicide and max meltas spread across my Rhino squads, plus Oblits, and it still doesn't feel like enough against certain good players with good 5th ed lists. The bar is far, far higher than 8 meltaguns.

Your statement about spending 1000 points to get 8 meltaguns exemplifies my viewpoint perfectly; you can't dedicate 1,000 points of your list to any AV13/14 that you might encounter and only have 8 meltaguns. The other 32 men are worthless until you bust the Land Raider open. Termicides and even Rhinos with combi meltas are a cheaper way to double up on AT fire, and necessary in 5th ed against good mech lists. Melta density is just as important as melta quantity, and basic CSM lack both. They're backup AT, not primary AT. Both are necessary.

Oblits are rarely within 12" of an enemy vehicle to make the multimelta worth it. Again, its unnecessary points spent on versatility that you really dont need, as other units working together do a better job.

Oblits are often in range due to rhino-borne icons and deep strike. Oblits aren't exempt from the 'work together to gain synergy' that we're attributing to the rest of the HS choices. In my experience, Deep Strike is the best way to run them unless you're facing off against predominantly AV10-12.

IF you have sufficient anti-tank then 8 meltas is enough, but arent you running havocs with autocannon? so that means your only way to deal with AV13+ vehicles is through those 8 meltas. I would hardly say that that is enough anti-tank. At the very least its going to take you a couple of turns to get into melta range, presuming you move all your scoring units up the board so that they dont just get shot out of their transports. In the meantime theres going to be all sorts of nastyness coming your way.

Also, lots of armies are taking transports these days, so they they can get troops closer to objectives. So if your opponent is driving his transport hell-for-leather at your objective then it is quite likely that at some point hes going to be within 12" of your oblits. Remember you also cant target units inside transports, even though they can still score, so destroying the transport become a top priority. At that range 3 multi-meltas completely outclass every other form of anti-tank available to CSM. Then there will even be plasma cannon to deal with anything that falls out next turn.

QFT+3.

Honestly, I have no idea what youre trying to argue here.

Im sorry, but so? Youre saying oblits cant even win, as if theyre the best option, which is exactly what Im arguing against. Good for you, you won a game against someone else...congrats?

Transports coming at me and moving within 12 inches of oblits...? How did they even get that far? Did other armies magically get to take 15 transports that 8 meltas, prince, dreads, etc. cannot destroy?? Why is it that a predator with 2 autocannons and 2 lascannons for less than the cost of 2 oblits cannot take them out? What about my 150 point, 8 autocannon shots havocs?

You talk as if the Tzeentch Prince is optimal...talk about waste of points.

Everything in my list can easily destroy transports. Everything. The difference is my options are far cheaper than yours so I get many more units, which can cover more ground. Oblits dont do it better because theyre slow and multimelta is useless unless your opponent willingly gets within the range of 6-12"-> and raptors do it better anyways! Theyre guaranteed to melta anything within 18", whereas oblits only do it if they roll a 6. They also cost more so thats less shots per point for the same guns, and are worse in CC (so you better hope you actually destroy it with those 3 shots).

After my meltas shoot, they charge and destroy the tank with a fist and continue on. Terminators shoot, and then theyre useless. Im not saying theyre bad, Im saying its 105 points you dont need to spend if you have enough guns elsewhere.

8 melta guns, backed up with 8 autocannons and 4 lascannons is hardly a joke. Then you have every unit being a threat in CC to vehicles and it gets even better.

Night Lords wrote:
You talk as if the Tzeentch Prince is optimal...talk about waste of points.

You're playing 4th ed.

Everything in my list can easily destroy transports. Everything.

What in your list kills Land Raiders? 6 meltaguns. The havocs and your laspreds don't do squat.

Oblits dont do it better because theyre slow and multimelta is useless unless your opponent willingly gets within the range of 6-12"-> and raptors do it better anyways!

Deep Strike your Oblits off of icons. It's a free alpha strike. And Raptors don't get 3 TL meltaguns, or 3 multimeltas. Quit playing 4th ed.

After my meltas shoot, they charge and destroy the tank with a fist and continue on. Terminators shoot, and then theyre useless. Im not saying theyre bad, Im saying its 105 points you dont need to spend if you have enough guns elsewhere.

5th ed is about forcing the other guy out of his transports before you get forced out of yours. If you're using power fists as transport killers then you've already failed.

8 melta guns, backed up with 8 autocannons and 4 lascannons is hardly a joke. Then you have every unit being a threat in CC to vehicles and it gets even better.

Let's see what other lists bring in 2k points:

Flying Salamanders: 3-4 meltas, 12-14 multimeltas, plus heavy flamers and thunderhammers
Mech Guard: 12-15 meltas, 5-10 plasma cannons, 9-18 lascannons, plus an assortment of autocannons, multilasers, and heavy bolters
Mech Sisters: 12-18 meltas, 4-6 Twin-Linked heavy flamers on fast tank transports, plus even more optional meltas, combimeltas, flamers, and combiflamers
Mech Eldar: 10-15 meltas, 0-3 Fire Prisms or 0-18 scatter lasers, plus even more scatter lasers, shuriken cannons, or bright lances
Mech Chaos with Termicide and Alpha Oblits: 6-10 meltas, 3-9 combi meltas, 9 T/L meltas or multimeltas

These are basic builds for those lists. 8 meltaguns, 8 autocannons (on 10 guys that can't move and must be outside a transport to fire optimally) and 4 lascannons is a complete and utter joke. Quit playing 4th ed.

sourclams wrote:
You're playing 4th ed.

Youre spending 50 points for a spell that may kill 4 guys all game, provided you get into the right situation. The 4+ invul is useless when you can easily play to cover.

Everything in my list can easily destroy transports. Everything.

What in your list kills Land Raiders? 6 meltaguns. The havocs and your laspreds don't do squat.

Hmm, 2 dreadnoughts, 8 meltas will all destroy them...then a Prince, 4 lascannons can still take it down. Even basic CSMs can glance it to death in the worst case scenario. Again, I have no idea what you were trying to prove here.

Deep Strike your Oblits off of icons. It's a free alpha strike. And Raptors don't get 3 TL meltaguns, or 3 multimeltas. Quit playing 4th ed.

Cool, and then you get even fewer shots off per turn and then they get smacked in close combat. TL melta guns on oblits...haha, never used them once. Raptors dont need multimeltas, because they can get the melta bonus better than oblits can.

5th ed is about forcing the other guy out of his transports before you get forced out of yours. If you're using power fists as transport killers then you've already failed.

LOL...Tanks anyone? Or do you keep your guys inside all game because youre afraid of getting out into the line of fire? Pathetic.

Let's see what other lists bring in 2k points:

Flying Salamanders: 3-4 meltas, 12-14 multimeltas, plus heavy flamers and thunderhammers
Mech Guard: 12-15 meltas, 5-10 plasma cannons, 9-18 lascannons, plus an assortment of autocannons, multilasers, and heavy bolters
Mech Sisters: 12-18 meltas, 4-6 Twin-Linked heavy flamers on fast tank transports, plus even more optional meltas, combimeltas, flamers, and combiflamers
Mech Eldar: 10-15 meltas, 0-3 Fire Prisms or 0-18 scatter lasers, plus even more scatter lasers, shuriken cannons, or bright lances
Mech Chaos with Termicide and Alpha Oblits: 6-10 meltas, 3-9 combi meltas, 9 T/L meltas or multimeltas

These are basic builds for those lists. 8 meltaguns, 8 autocannons (on 10 guys that can't move and must be outside a transport to fire optimally) and 4 lascannons is a complete and utter joke. Quit playing 4th ed.

CC, CC, CC, CC, CC. My list, and chaos in general, will slaughter all of them in CC. 28 shots alone that can take out transports on my side, plus assaulting. Wow, surprised that an army with 1/3 the cost for infantry can take more meltas?? Who woulda thought?? Your game is completely based around the one turn where meltas are useful. Your lack of numbers is where youll pay. I find it ironic that you list those armies out with all those guns, yet 1000 points is based around 18 guys that die just as easily to all those big guns.


Dont worry, I used to be ignorant too. I read the Oblits entry and Im like "every gun!? Sold!". Then I realized how much they cost when they dont shoot anymore than a havoc does, for 2x the price. I will take down transports better than anything you have in your list, yet you claim Im the one running a 4th edition list because "5th is all about taking out transports first". That plus the fact that the few men you do have on the field dies just as easily as a marine just makes me laugh. Let me guess, you take plagues for +8 points each too just to make your side of the argument contradict itself some more ?

Clamsy,

What does the Tzeentch Prince gain over the lash prince, aside from the flamer template that takes advantage of 5th edition?

Heeeey, dont be a hater of the Tzeen DP - I love that guy!

I rate the Warptime + Wind of Chaos mix. Rerolling 4+'s and attacks is just tasty! Also as my opponents are Mech'd to the hilt, lash just doesnt carry much punch.

@darkkt:

The '205' Prince is IMO the only Tzeentch Dp I'd ever suggest.
Then there is the 'Crono' Prince, Warp time and mark or not.
Then there's (my fav.) Spartan Prince, with just wings.
__________________

I see Night Lords way of death dealing more of a late game thing.
While sourclams is pushing a more early game damage dealing.
I say both works. Combat is quite decisive, while shooting heavy starts the death tally earlier.

I prefer shooting though, much faster to resolve.

My 7 Cents.

Ive been stung taking Tzeen with Warptime + Bolt of Change (stupid move) - he fires (rerolls) takes down the tank. Yay. The then sits and winces whilst 30 autocannon shots tear him a new one.

I dont hate Gift of Chaos for my Tzeen DP, as its not shooting, and doesnt restrict who he assaults. I like to Spawnify a heavy weapons guy so they cant shoot, then assault my preferred target (frequently a different squad or a tank).

I do love the exploding tank d6inch blast taking out a heap of IG plebs.
________________________

Both ways work - absolutely, you gotta build your army to your playing style. I like to rush forward, presenting heaps of 'in your face targets' (including my infiltrated chosen melta squad), whilst keeping my Havocs back in cover (generally in a building) punching with autocannons or missile launchers at lighter tanks (like those damb banewolves).

whitedragon wrote:Clamsy,

What does the Tzeentch Prince gain over the lash prince, aside from the flamer template that takes advantage of 5th edition?

An abundance of transports means that Lash isn't nearly as useful. It's still competitive although less so, but you can explore more with alternative builds. Tzeentch prince gains a lot because you've got a dual threat unit capable of dealing with mass infantry, elite infantry, walkers, and is able to screen rhinos all in one while still being a CC monster. It synergizes really well with a short-range Mech firefight army like Chaos.

CC, CC, CC, CC, CC. My list, and chaos in general, will slaughter all of them in CC.

Let's just look at this statement. How are you getting into CC on your terms? With your whopping 4 lascannon shots busting Land Raiders open? Or waiting for your opponent to drive within 12" so you can disembark, move, shoot, pray you kill it, and then assault? If you're playing against any of the lists that I posted, and your opponents are letting you pull off the charge with regularity, they're not skilled opponents.

28 shots alone that can take out transports on my side, plus assaulting. Wow, surprised that an army with 1/3 the cost for infantry can take more meltas?? Who woulda thought?? Your game is completely based around the one turn where meltas are useful.

Let's look at this statement as well. MechVets are completely based around the one turn where they're in melta range? What about the eighteen move-and-shoot lascannons? What do those do all game? Or the Executioner Russes hurling plasma death? How about Vulkan marines: I didn't realize that TH/SS Terminators were one-use items. Mechdar get one turn of effectiveness? Is that the second turn when all your Havoks die to outflanking War Walkers?

Your '28 shots' are largely concentrated within 8 T4 MEQs. When those die, 24 becomes 6.

Your lack of numbers is where youll pay. I find it ironic that you list those armies out with all those guns, yet 1000 points is based around 18 guys that die just as easily to all those big guns

Lack of numbers? You've got 40-50 MEQs and 3-4 threat vehicles with 4-5 transports. The other guy is going to have roughly 2/3 your number of foot models with twice as many threat vehicles/transports, and enough firepower to deal with yours in 1-2 turns. You have an unbalanced foot list and it doesn't have the speed to capitalize on your CC.

Ive never seen someone ignore so many points.

sourclams wrote:

Let's just look at this statement. How are you getting into CC on your terms? With your whopping 4 lascannon shots busting Land Raiders open? Or waiting for your opponent to drive within 12" so you can disembark, move, shoot, pray you kill it, and then assault? If you're playing against any of the lists that I posted, and your opponents are letting you pull off the charge with regularity, they're not skilled opponents.

You talk as if you know my army, or as if Landraiders can be spammed in large numbers. If someone wants to spend 250+ points on a landraider, Ill thank them for wasting so many points.

Hmm, like ive said what? 5 times now? 8 meltas, 2 on raptors. Thats 18" right there. Hmm, 2 dreadnoughts, which also includes a 1/3 chance theyll fleet towards it (has happened a few times, funny enough, to landraiders). The 4 lascannons, every fist...the prince. I have lots of options.

Besides, if youre really trying to waste resources on Land Raiders, youre not playing right. If your opponent makes a mistake and puts one in range, great. Otherwise, leave it and dont leave troops out in the open. You talk as if oblits are magically going to blow it up with 6s to pen on lascannons. The multimelta, again, is outdone by raptors. So congrats at proving...?

Your '28 shots' are largely concentrated within 8 T4 MEQs. When those die, 24 becomes 6.

What are you? New? When those marines die I LOSE because thats my army. You talk as if its simple to kill a ten man squad to get rid of two melta guns. This point is useless. That's like me saying as soon as I kill your 9 oblits (which is not hard to do at all), youre lascannons go from 9 to 0. Im so smart.

Lack of numbers? You've got 40-50 MEQs and 3-4 threat vehicles with 4-5 transports. The other guy is going to have roughly 2/3 your number of foot models with twice as many threat vehicles/transports, and enough firepower to deal with yours in 1-2 turns. You have an unbalanced foot list and it doesn't have the speed to capitalize on your CC.

You have 1000 points to spend on 2 HQs and troops. That gets you 400+ in HQs (since youre running that useless Tzeentch Prince i figure youll waste points on the Hq as well), and what? 20 plague marines?

So in the end you have 2-3 rhinos, no vehicles, a bolter-vulnerable prince or two, 20 MEQs, 18 TEQs randomly coming in on turns (big deal, 5+ invuls). Yea, that sounds much better. You know what, I forgot, because as long as you have 20 meltas you win!!

Night Lords wrote:Ive never seen someone ignore so many points.

Yea, I've read your posts and then his and it probably isnt worth your time to continue. The most important component of a discussion versus an argument is listening/reading the opponents message and taking the time to understand it, and I don't think that's happening on his end.

I'm a big fan of havocs, I think they are incredibly nice for their point cost, great selection of different weapons(especially autocannons which no other csm choice can take as many of), and the same great stat line as csm troopers with almost all the same upgrade options (rhinos, icons, etc) to make them fit the role you need in your army. They don't have the same on-the-field versatility as obliterators but that is not always a benefit , especially for the points.

Does that mean havocs are the best choice every time, every army, and against every opponent? Of course not, but I see obliterator proponents saying oblits are and I think that is dead wrong, regardless of how versatile they are. If you look at the oblit unit entry and can't see any big negatives I would look harder.

Sanctjud wrote:I prefer shooting though, much faster to resolve.

And less dangerous to your own troops. The lists sourclams posted have little trouble shooting armies off the table by turn 3ish.

Shooting only works to a point. To really capture from large masses of dug-in Troops, close combat is really what you need. Or massed templates.

Havocs offer something very useful in that regard: a close support unit that can bring a mass of template weapons without sacrificing too much anti-infantry firepower thanks to their Bolters and Bolt Pistols, who can afterwards charge an entrenched enemy effectively using their grenades and close combat weapons, and sustaining the casualties that would otherwise go to one's Troops.

That's one of the drawbacks to Berzerkers, that they are great at assault, and capturing objectives, but you really want to preserve your Troops to hold objectives, and have them armed so that they don't have to shift too much to repel or destroy threats.

Defilers are somewhat similar: they can challenge heavy units that can contest objectives, bully smaller units, shoot up whatever might try to stop them from contesting, and be expendable into the bargain. They're pretty tough all-rounders.

Halsfield wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Ive never seen someone ignore so many points.

Yea, I've read your posts and then his and it probably isnt worth your time to continue. The most important component of a discussion versus an argument is listening/reading the opponents message and taking the time to understand it, and I don't think that's happening on his end.

I think youre right. I think he just skips the points because he wants to get to the "stop playing 4th edition" 'insult' at the end. Not sure why Ive had to repeat myself about 4 times already.

As with your next point about the oblits, I agree entirely. Oblits if necessary, but not necessarily oblits. They can work well if youre hurting in HS, but working together with other HS you can get more guns for a cheaper cost.

Here's the first line of the original post:

Lately my Obliterator's have failed me. Deep striking to their death's failing to hit thing's with their wep's I always field a defiler, but alone it isn't very competitive

The OP is concerned with competitive play.

The advice that has been given by you and others is not competitive. I'm not ignoring your points, I'm pointing out why they are not correct.

sourclams wrote:Here's the first line of the original post:

Lately my Obliterator's have failed me. Deep striking to their death's failing to hit thing's with their wep's I always field a defiler, but alone it isn't very competitive

The OP is concerned with competitive play.

The advice that has been given by you and others is not competitive. I'm not ignoring your points, I'm pointing out why they are not correct.

You are ignoring points completely, and you are also ignoring points when you are trying to prove they are not correct.

You are also running a cookie cutter list that took no thought and simply comprises of the single best units. This does not mean it's the best army list. I used to run that list all the time - it's boring and a one trick pony.

The fact is, there are alternatives for cheaper points that do the job better. Again, 4 autocannons for 150 points will shoot down transports better than 2 oblits can. They can take down warwalkers better than 2 oblits can. Hell, they can do it better than 3 oblits for 75 points less, plus they can live longer when everything heading their way is going to IK them.

Maybe sit down, take a look through the codex again and ignore what all the people on the internet say. I used to be stubborn as a mule and just like you where I thought anything other than those few "competitive" units were useless. That is not the case at all. The advantage to doing something like I did is that it's also unexpected while being just as effective.

Unfortunately now Im stuck with units Ill never use again like plague marines that I could have spent on other things.

Most Cookie Cutter's use Lash Though.

I sometimes do use Lash I won't lie but lately it's been Warptime that I've been using.

It usually also doesn't have as much armor as I carry around.

I'm gonna throw in a vote for the Lascannon Predator, Shadow. It's always served me well, and I use one in both my Crimson Fist and my World Eater army. In my World Eaters, it's teamed with a Land Raider so I get a little more support and something to split anti tank fire with, for my C.Fists, I've got a large squad of Devastators to help take down targets and the Pask upgrade to keep it firing every turn.

It's a lot of points, but it's a work horse and it's never let me down. Personally, I've never liked the Oblits myself: you can't give them Mark of Khorne, and they can't take the kind of anti-tank/hard armor fire they can dish out.

I agree with RxGhost about the utility of a Predator Annihilator. If you treat it as a tank-hunter rather than a tank, something that either sits and shoots, or scoots, it's a nice piece of kit that can engage enemy armour while it's over on the other side of the table and before they get to you, and does it more less expensively than a Land Raider. Easier to get cover too.

I'm going to throw in my vote for the Laspred too. It dishes out intimidating anti-tank from turn one, and has great durability. My Predator hasn't dropped the ball yet, usually getting a kill each time it fires so long as you pick the right target (transports around AV11).

Night Lords wrote:
You are ignoring points completely, and you are also ignoring points when you are trying to prove they are not correct.

You are also running a cookie cutter list that took no thought and simply comprises of the single best units. This does not mean it's the best army list. I used to run that list all the time - it's boring and a one trick pony.

The fact is, there are alternatives for cheaper points that do the job better. Again, 4 autocannons for 150 points will shoot down transports better than 2 oblits can. They can take down warwalkers better than 2 oblits can. Hell, they can do it better than 3 oblits for 75 points less, plus they can live longer when everything heading their way is going to IK them.

Maybe sit down, take a look through the codex again and ignore what all the people on the internet say. I used to be stubborn as a mule and just like you where I thought anything other than those few "competitive" units were useless. That is not the case at all. The advantage to doing something like I did is that it's also unexpected while being just as effective.

Unfortunately now Im stuck with units Ill never use again like plague marines that I could have spent on other things.

The OP is asking for what is competitive. The best units in the codex are more competitive than less good units in the codex. Other units may not be useless but they will not be as competitive.

Asside from that you are still proposing a unit that is better at one thing compared to oblits. You can kill light vehicles well. Well done you should be proud. Two oblits kill horde better, MEQs better, Terminators better and heavy vehicles better. Not to mention that they will never run away, are a lot harder to kill and are even better in combat than a small squad of havocs.

So if we have identical armies, except you have havocs with autocannon as a heavy choice and I have oblits, your army will be better at killing light vehicles, but my army will be better at everything else. So which do you think is more competetive?

Regwon wrote:

The OP is asking for what is competitive. The best units in the codex are more competitive than less good units in the codex. Other units may not be useless but they will not be as competitive.

Asside from that you are still proposing a unit that is better at one thing compared to oblits. You can kill light vehicles well. Well done you should be proud. Two oblits kill horde better, MEQs better, Terminators better and heavy vehicles better. Not to mention that they will never run away, are a lot harder to kill and are even better in combat than a small squad of havocs.

So if we have identical armies, except you have havocs with autocannon as a heavy choice and I have oblits, your army will be better at killing light vehicles, but my army will be better at everything else. So which do you think is more competetive?

My units are cheaper. Working together they can get the same tasks done for less points. The best options are also the most expensive options. Taking less than the best means more units. More units that are just slightly worse makes up for it in numbers.

I have autocannons, but I also have two preds who point for point have more lascannons than oblits. With the points I save, I can get 2 squads of termicide units (my dreads and termicide are interchangable). So now I have 12 autocannon shots a turn, 4 lascannons, 6 combi melta terminators while you have 9 lascannons that can still only shoot 3 different things a turn for the same points.

I dont need plasma cannons because I have other things to deal with terminators (which at T4 are garbage anyways). I dont need anything else because my army already has tons of guns all over the board.

As to Oblits vs. everything else in the hvy suppport it ends up being subjective.
With usage applied anything is 'good' at the job it's geared for.

I see more oblits being thrown around though, while the other hvy supports are in the minority at least in my area.

I think the only havoc squad in my gaming group is one with a fist champion/ Icon of Khorne, and 4 autocannons, a sort of 'fun' squad. I've not heard of their performance though.

From my exp. the oblits have never failed me.
Havocs with tank hunters and autocannons never failed me either, but that is no more.

When the New chaos codex came out, the loss of tank hunters was so devestating, my ACs could no longer do what they needed to do. /shrug. Switched to oblits and didn't look back.

If they get 'some' bonus for havocs I'll look at them again.
Planet Strike gave them a new lease on life though.

My 7 Cents.

Night Lords wrote:

My units are cheaper. Working together they can get the same tasks done for less points. The best options are also the most expensive options. Taking less than the best means more units. More units that are just slightly worse makes up for it in numbers.

I have autocannons, but I also have two preds who point for point have more lascannons than oblits. With the points I save, I can get 2 squads of termicide units (my dreads and termicide are interchangable). So now I have 12 autocannon shots a turn, 4 lascannons, 6 combi melta terminators while you have 9 lascannons that can still only shoot 3 different things a turn for the same points.

I dont need plasma cannons because I have other things to deal with terminators (which at T4 are garbage anyways). I dont need anything else because my army already has tons of guns all over the board.

You would be right if oblits only has lascannon, but they dont. 9 las cannon is still better than 4 lascannon and 6 deepstriking combi-meltas for destroying heavy vehicles. 4 lascannon isnt enough and deepstriking termicide squads rely far too much on luck to be properly used for main anti-tank. You also dont seem to understand that you can never have enough firepower. More firepower for the same points is better than less firepower for the same points. Even if you do think you have enough guns to deal with most things, more will always help. If somebody gave you the choice of having a single tank or two tanks, which would you choose?

So my point still stands. If both of our armies are identical, but i have 9 oblits and you have your choices above my army is better at everything than your will be except destroying/immobilising light vehicles, and for the first few turns before your terminators come in, they are better at that too.

Regwon wrote:

So my point still stands. If both of our armies are identical, but i have 9 oblits and you have your choices above my army is better at everything than your will be except destroying/immobilising light vehicles, and for the first few turns before your terminators come in, they are better at that too.

Maybe you cant get it through your head - I have more points to spend than you while only missing out on a plasma cannon and a few lascannons (which are NOT the best way to take down tanks). From more terminators, to dreadnoughts, to another squad of marines, I have more units than you. Infact, its 5 to 3, where 4/5 can easily take down those oblits of yours. My game plan does not require a plasma cannon nor does it require lascannons. If that was the case, Id spend the points to buy them.

You talk as if I cant simply play oblits. If you think theres only 1 way to play the game, youre going to get rocked when a list with some real thought put into it comes out of nowhere.

Night Lords wrote:
Maybe you cant get it through your head - I have more points to spend than you while only missing out on a plasma cannon and a few lascannons (which are NOT the best way to take down tanks). From more terminators, to dreadnoughts, to another squad of marines, I have more units than you. Infact, its 5 to 3, where 4/5 can easily take down those oblits of yours. My game plan does not require a plasma cannon nor does it require lascannons. If that was the case, Id spend the points to buy them.

You talk as if I cant simply play oblits. If you think theres only 1 way to play the game, youre going to get rocked when a list with some real thought put into it comes out of nowhere.

The number of units you have has little bearing on how well you will do. Thinking more units is better is a fourth edition mentaility that doesnt really cut it anymore. You want to have few units with equal durability and equal firepower. Please feel free to take a dread but it will again do less than its equivalent points of oblits. I agree that lascannon arent the best way to take down tank, multimeltas hold that title (oblits have those too), but you cant deny that plasma cannon would improve any anti-infantry firepower that you have, even if you dont think its necessary. I would also challenge the proposition that your units can easily take down oblits. With each pred you may kill one per turn if you are lucky, and with each termicide squad you are only likely to kill one before your combi meltas run out.

Now I'm not saying thats all you can play with, but in a competitive environment oblits outclass all the other heavy choices in terms of ranged firepower. I think there maybe some thing to be had with assault havocs with special weapons in rhinos, but i havent been able to make an army like that work and havent seen anybody else that has either. In the mean time oblits are be best choice.

Regwon wrote:
The number of units you have has little bearing on how well you will do. Thinking more units is better is a fourth edition mentaility that doesnt really cut it anymore. You want to have few units with equal durability and equal firepower. Please feel free to take a dread but it will again do less than its equivalent points of oblits. I agree that lascannon arent the best way to take down tank, multimeltas hold that title (oblits have those too), but you cant deny that plasma cannon would improve any anti-infantry firepower that you have, even if you dont think its necessary. I would also challenge the proposition that your units can easily take down oblits. With each pred you may kill one per turn if you are lucky, and with each termicide squad you are only likely to kill one before your combi meltas run out.

Now I'm not saying thats all you can play with, but in a competitive environment oblits outclass all the other heavy choices in terms of ranged firepower. I think there maybe some thing to be had with assault havocs with special weapons in rhinos, but i havent been able to make an army like that work and havent seen anybody else that has either. In the mean time oblits are be best choice.

Again, youre not getting it. Numbers dont mean anything if the units are useless. But are you really going to argue that with the 200 points I save going towards what is basically 2 free squads of terminators, giving me 6 meltas (x3 in two squads deepstriking), 4 lascannons and 6 autocannons (for 12 shots) is worse because I dont have a plasma cannon? I have 22 shots in a turn from 5 units that can shoot 5 completely seperate units. You have 9 shots that can shoot 3. Down the road if you start buying termicide, guess what? Im using those points to buy another scoring unit. CSM troops are the highlight of the codex, and having more of them is great.

Autocannons, something oblits do not have, are great for anti infantry as well, doing just as well as a heavy bolter against T4 targets, and doing better against anything higher. They are not restricted to light transports. However, its nice knowing that you are easily going to destroy those ork trukks dead in their tracks, or can easily wipe out 3 warwalkers because you have the # of shots to do so. What about those smoked rhinos? 8 autocannons > 3 lascannons, as more shots = less likely to save everything.

As for me killing your oblits, youre going to get swarmed, all while taking in meltas, lascannons, and so on. Maybe my goal isnt even to go after them. Maybe, because I saved so many points, I have so many troops with so many rhinos all over the place blocking your line of sight with smoked up transports. Because you spent so many points, maybe Im sending my 45 MEQs after your 20 scoring MEQs and force you to at best tie the game. Who knows?

The fact is, I will have more dangerous units than you because you are simply worried that you may need a plasma cannon. You are paying for nothing but versatility. Yes, in order to do everything a squad of oblits do, I need to use two heavy slots. But at the same time, those two units are doing each of those things more efficiently point for point than oblits.

Thats the point. If your list is troop heavy and you only have a few points left to spend on heavy support, oblits are fantastic. Theyll let you do everything in one unit. However, they dont do it the best, and you can only do one thing a turn. However, if you set aside a lot of room for heavy support, youll find combinations that are even better.

Here's a 2k version of my list that I used in R1 and R2 'Ard Boyz (got 5/6 massacres with as well, so I know it's competitive "enough"). Some of the point values are approximations, I can't for the life of me find my Chaos 'dex.

HQ: Lash Prince - 155

Troops: Four 10x CSM, dual melta, Rhino, icon (1 squad has no icon) -855

Elite: Termicide, 3x combi melta - 315

Heavy: 9x Oblits - 675

Here's my nearest approximation of your list based on the dialogue in this thread:

HQ: None mentioned, I'll assume Lash Prince or something - 155

Troops: Five 10x CSM, dual melta, Rhino, icon - 860 + 2 champs with power fists ~100

Elite: 2x Dread, multimelta - 200

Heavy: Two 5xHavoks, Icon, 4x Autocannon - 330
Triple las predator - 145

So you've got one more CSM squad and two Walkers. You have 8-10 meltaguns, 2 multimeltas (or maybe CC weapons), 8 autocannons, and 3 lascannons (you say 4, just tell me where to put it in).

My list has got 3 drop Terminators. I've got 8 meltaguns, 9 combi meltas, and 9 lascannons/multimeltas/twinlinked meltas. On the surface these lists are similar.

Let's look at mechanics: Your Dreadnoughts have to start relatively far away from your rhinos and from each other on the offchance they get Fire Frenzy, which makes it difficult for you to support them in the assault and vice versa (or not, they have have CC weaps but that cuts down on your AT fire). Your Havocs can't move and shoot. Your Predator can't move and shoot unless you sacrifice 2/3 of its offensive capability.

Five rhinos is good, but honestly keeping them far enough away from the Dreadnoughts Fire Frenzy is tough. You also have issues with LOS when trying to work with the Predator. The Havocs can deploy on a 2nd floor ruin (except in DoW), which is a plus.

The way I envision this army deploying is with the Predator in one corner, the Dreads in the other, and the Rhinos going for a middle rush with Havocs on whatever 2 story terrain they can find. Feel free to correct me anywhere I'm wrong.

Rhinos rush forward, Havocs sit and shoot, predator sits and shoot, the Dreadnoughts honestly don't have much of a role so they trundle forward trying to get to grips with whatever they can.

Your core is 5 rhino squads with flanking fire. When you factor in cover, it's pretty minimal flanking fire because you've got to deal with the divergence of your army's CC-edness and your reliance on static fire support. And let's be honest, you start losing autocannons with every 3rd wound caused; they're not a resilient firebase and extremely vulnerable to outflanking units like War Walkers.

My army on the other hand is completely mobile because my fire support can pop in wherever I want it. I rarely have LOS issues, and if you try to deal with Oblits/Termicides via the assault you're vulnerable to the countercharge from my 20-40 squads. Termicides require far more than 100 points' worth of enemy shooting to kill off and they're a potent harasser unit even with their combis spent. I can keep my whole force concentrated, yours is required to spread out. My list is entirely synergistic, yours potentially faces a lot of problems with blocked firing lanes. All of my units are dual threat whereas yours are tooled up for dealing with AV11-12.

This list was fine in 4th edition. Now, it's not. Take apart my assumptions any way you see fit, I eagerly await the tactical discussion that will ensue.

Nurglitch wrote:I agree with RxGhost about the utility of a Predator Annihilator. If you treat it as a tank-hunter rather than a tank, something that either sits and shoots, or scoots, it's a nice piece of kit that can engage enemy armour while it's over on the other side of the table and before they get to you, and does it more less expensively than a Land Raider. Easier to get cover too.

I've had good success with a Predator with an autocannon turret and sponson lascannons. It's also 30 points cheaper than the annihilator variant, and gets an extra shot thats good for everything but AV14.

Your list is good, theres no doubt in that. Never said there was. However, it doesnt mean there are not alternatives.

It boils down to my HS costing 490 (havocs, pred, pred) and yours costing 675. My HS is nearly 2/3 the cost of yours - 200 points cheaper. The prince is interchangeable, the dreads/termicide (I run both) are interchangeable. HQ and Elites are the same, so what it comes down to are the troops. I have 200 points more than you to put into troops.

Those 200 points go a long ways and give me plenty of options. I can afford the premium price of having raptors (essentially CSM with jump packs) to move those extra 6 inches, over buildings, behind vehicles and so on to melta, contest, assault, etc. I can afford to have a powerfist and a champ for ld 10 in each squad. I can afford to buy another rhino and scoring squad with more meltas. Personally I mix between the raptors, which is basically a ~50 point premium, and an upgraded or additional troop with more meltas.

So ultimately I get:

-A unit that's better at taking down light transports
-3 more mechanized units on my side between 2 preds and a rhino
-16 high strength shots for 490 points, compared to 9 of yours
-Stationary movement, though 6" on foot, 24" in rhinos after two turns

and most importantly

-200 extra points

You get:

-Deepstriking (+ scattering ofcourse)
-Plasma Cannons, better for taking down TEQs
-Heavy flamer, multimelta, etc. that, let's be honest, isnt used anywhere near as much as las or PCs.
-9 TEQs
-S&P movement


So really, it's what you prefer and what you want to take down. To me, taking down transports is far more common and important than terminators. The rest of the army, in my opinion, takes infantry of any kind down just fine. Terminators can be dealt with with the 20 something guns that can wound them on twos each turn, some APing them. Each of my 3 HS options at more than 12" takes down transports better as well.

as a deathguard player, i scoffed oblits last book and this book, but i recently broke down and proxied a few in some games, and as much as i hate to admit it, they really ARE good. my normal DG list is double winged Dp with warptime and double melta PM's in rhinos. everything ranged is short, the army is slow, especially when i get my rhinos popped early. but the oblits lend much needed long range support via lascannon for tank hunting. my new 2500 will be running 2, matched with 2 defilers. i am converting a total of 4 from FW termie kits just to have.

i tedn to walk them, not trusting DS, i dont pay for icons on my squads much unless im running some lesser demons or terminice units.

DarkHound wrote:I'm going to throw in my vote for the Laspred too. It dishes out intimidating anti-tank from turn one, and has great durability. My Predator hasn't dropped the ball yet, usually getting a kill each time it fires so long as you pick the right target (transports around AV11).

yeah i was a fan, but its a bit confused. Does it want to take on tanks? sure its av13 will help, but 3 lascannons... your better off with multi/melta guns to take out proper tanks. i leave the AC on top and get las sponsons, for popping transports/dreads. Those lascannons can pitch in to help take down a tank if it doesnt have a good transport/dread to shoot at, and the AC and Lascannons love shooting up things like terms. It don't use it as a battle tank, more of sweeper of transports from the field.

Also, honestly, people need to factor in flexability into their choices. A squad of 5 raptors without a mark and 1 flamer/pwrfist champ sounds silly, but that solo flamer lasted the game, took out 30+ guardsmen, cleared one objective and contested the other one. And i know that most people on dakka would scoff quite abit at he idea of a 5 man raptor squad. I would too, but on a field with big buildings and dense terrain, that 5 man squad was priceless- and only because they had jumppacks.

I've found the TL Lascannon more valuable for hunting those light tanks. The AC is nice, but it is only penning a Rhino on 5s, which means you'll need both to do maybe as much damage as that TL Lascannon. Between all the Lascannons, you are almost assured 2 hits, and with the Lascannon's strength, hitting the target is the hardest part.

Do not be confused, most tanks simply don't have the firepower to kill other tanks in this edition. The Predator isn't a tank hunter. It kills transports, and with its long range it can start killing transports before they get anywhere. This is invaluable because infantry are slow, and the further they are from the objectives the better off you are.

DarkHound wrote:I've found the TL Lascannon more valuable for hunting those light tanks. The AC is nice, but it is only penning a Rhino on 5s, which means you'll need both to do maybe as much damage as that TL Lascannon. Between all the Lascannons, you are almost assured 2 hits, and with the Lascannon's strength, hitting the target is the hardest part.

Do not be confused, most tanks simply don't have the firepower to kill other tanks in this edition. The Predator isn't a tank hunter. It kills transports, and with its long range it can start killing transports before they get anywhere. This is invaluable because infantry are slow, and the further they are from the objectives the better off you are.

I will take the AC + Las sponson pred anyday over the Tri-las pred. It's 35 points that can go into a second predator. The autocannon & las pred is going to kill light vehicles anyways with those 4 shots.

i wish i could man up and use my pred, but with the ix of 5th edition firing rules and the los of mutated hull, my pred has been in my bag since the new book dropped.

DarkHound wrote:I've found the TL Lascannon more valuable for hunting those light tanks. The AC is nice, but it is only penning a Rhino on 5s, which means you'll need both to do maybe as much damage as that TL Lascannon. Between all the Lascannons, you are almost assured 2 hits, and with the Lascannon's strength, hitting the target is the hardest part.

Do not be confused, most tanks simply don't have the firepower to kill other tanks in this edition. The Predator isn't a tank hunter. It kills transports, and with its long range it can start killing transports before they get anywhere. This is invaluable because infantry are slow, and the further they are from the objectives the better off you are.

But does that TL LC kill as many troops? I agree if i really, really, really want to be sure i can pop a transport, TL LC is what i want. But if i want to just be really sure i can pop it, and have points for another rhino, I'll go AC. Its a personal preference really, based on experience. AC/2 LC hasn't let me down in a shooting phase yet ...and neither did my Trilas pred shooting at another pred and then terms the whole game (No other mech targets, the dread copped some melta action) the clincher is the 35 points which is a rhino

If you have a Predator with Lascannons, it shouldn't be shooitng at infantry unless there is literally no other target.

It is personal preference. I agree, if you need more mech, that 35 points is too much to spend on pushing the Predator's anti-tank over the edge. However, my list has far too little long ranged firepower (without the Predator) and a third of my bodies coming down through Deepstrike. I need less Rhinos for my army to be effectively mechanized. I can't carve out the points for a second Predator, but those extra 35 points make the one Predator I do have vastly more effective.

Besides, having all Lascannons makes it easier for you to take on things you "shouldn't." Obviously Lascannons aren't the best choice for killing AV13+, but can do the job. If you need that side-exposed Leman Russ dead, and your Oblits have yet to come down, you'll be glad you payed for the Lascannon over that Autocannon.

Is it over-priced, especially when you compare it to other codicies scaling? Yes, but the fact remains that the Laspred is the best source of Lascannons in Codex CSM.

DarkHound wrote:Yes, but the fact remains that the Laspred is the best source of Lascannons in Codex CSM.

It's debateable whether lascannons are worth it with that sort of price tag.

I used a las pred on the weekend, and whilst it was good (until it got melta'd by stormtroopers), it really struggled to get more than a couple of shaken results on the AV14 front of a LR. My infiltrating Melta Chosen squad tore them up tho.

I have a much smaller game coming up, and shall be trialing a couple of Oblits (cos I havent had them out for a while), and on the basis of whats been discussed here. For lower points, I want more 'generalist' models, and Oblits are great all rounders!

I wouldn't recommend using anything but Melta's on AV14, but we have so much of that available. The moral of that story I guess is know your target. Like I said before, Lascannons chew up transports at a range Melta weapons can't. That range makes all the difference; the sooner you kill the transport, the more exposed his infantry are and the longer it'll take them to reach their objective.

One idea is a Havoc Squad with two Lascannons to fire out of the top hatch of a Rhino, and then two Melta to hit incoming Land Raiders and to go hunting heavy tanks, and two combi-meltas (one on the Aspiring Champion and one on the Rhino).

With that loadout you're bordering on the cost of 3 Oblits with less firepower.

sourclams:

Actually it's ten points more than a full squad of Obliterators if the Havoc squad is run at bare minimum numbers.

In raw number the Obliterators get one more Lascannon, and about the same number of Melta Guns. I'd factor in the value of the Rhino as transport, cover, vehicle spam, and so on, as well as the close combat abilities of the Havocs themselves.

If you're counting on a by-model basis, you get twice as many models for your points...

Can't say I agree with that havoc setup. Obliterators ARE very good, and the only way Havocs should be used over them is is if they are cheaper.

The lascannons on the havocs are a joke. 50 Points each, with the upgrade being nearly twice as expensive as missles/autocannons. 25 points more you get a TEQ with nearly every gun and deepstriking.

I wouldnt take havocs unless I used autocannons, missles, and in the rare, rare case where you know you are playing orks/nids and you know theyre footslogging, heavy bolters.

Looking at it now, I realize that these are 3 guns that the oblits simply dont have.

Autocannons - Damage vehicles up to AV13 better than anything the oblits have outside of 12". Have the range and shots to take down those lootas in cover. Is anti-horde as well, causing less than one less wound than heavy bolters.

Missles - Strg 8, or blast template. Oblits can do it better with lascannons (Strg 9) and plasma cannons (ap2), but theyre also twice as expensive. You get two missles havocs for 1 oblit. Can still take down vehicles, and can still take down horde. Not a bad pick (though Id never run them over missles personally).

Heavy Bolters - Simply the most shots you can get with a single unit, and S5, Ap4 isnt too bad either. Have a very niche role (footslogging orks, eldar banshees, and so on). Rarely used though.

Personally, my favorite HS choices are Vindicator, Oblits, and Land Raider. Las Preds are good for ranged anti-armour work, but you have to sit still, which can be a death sentence. I don't care much for Havocs, and the Defiler is tricky at best.

DarkHound wrote:If you have a Predator with Lascannons, it shouldn't be shooitng at infantry unless there is literally no other target.

It is personal preference. I agree, if you need more mech, that 35 points is too much to spend on pushing the Predator's anti-tank over the edge. However, my list has far too little long ranged firepower (without the Predator) and a third of my bodies coming down through Deepstrike. I need less Rhinos for my army to be effectively mechanized. I can't carve out the points for a second Predator, but those extra 35 points make the one Predator I do have vastly more effective.

Besides, having all Lascannons makes it easier for you to take on things you "shouldn't." Obviously Lascannons aren't the best choice for killing AV13+, but can do the job. If you need that side-exposed Leman Russ dead, and your Oblits have yet to come down, you'll be glad you payed for the Lascannon over that Autocannon.

Is it over-priced, especially when you compare it to other codicies scaling? Yes, but the fact remains that the Laspred is the best source of Lascannons in Codex CSM.

Yeah i ran out of Targets :( although in a way thats a good sign...

I can see how Trilas fits into your army much better than mine... fielding a squad of havocs (shoot me i know) and a pred give me a shooty hold the ground unit and a shooty can go hunt unit. And totally agreed, its overpriced especially against other codicies, but it is the best source of lascannon we've got atm. Its a great support unit and i've gotten my points worth out of every game i've fielded it

i would use a land raider and 3 oblits. oblits could stand behind the land raider

I use Oblits and a Havoc squad. The Havocs pack 2 HB and 2 AC and make a great anti-infantry squad or light vehicle killers. The versatility of the Oblits lets me do whatever my opponents list dictates. I like the Havocs even though they are not the most points efficient, on more than a few occasions they have counter-charged (with 3 attacks each on the charge) to clear my home objective. When it comes down to it, the Havocs are still Chaos Marines and can hold thier own. Great thread!