This years lack of GT's has really rather bummed me out....I know there must be other tournament commando's out there that are hoping for GW to step it up and actually produce a venue for us to all get together and play again.

This year all I had to look forward to was Adepticon as the Waagghh and Necro were unavailable to me due to prior plans. No Baltimore GT this year killed much enthusiam that I had to get together with old friends and no Vegas compounded the issue for me even more. Just to get some tournament gaming in this year I'm going to hit Minicon at Raleigh in October in order to "get my fix".

Does anyone else out there have a "bad feeling" about GW producing? I really wonder whether they're going to get it together this year or not. We've yet to get a definitive yes/no from them and between their 'stance' about competetive gaming not being important and the global recession...well, it doenst really inspire confidence.

Are we looking at a death/decline in GT's? Is the community up to really keeping the competetive fire alive here in the United States without any real help from GW? Adepticon is great. Waagghh and Necro are established but each has "problems" according to some attendee's and Necro is even taking this next year off.

Its actually a dire situation for people like me, at least that's how I feel. Sure, I enjoy gaming at the FLGS but nothing compares to a full weekend packed with gaming and comraderie with guys you havent seen in a couple of months over Pints of Guiness.

It seems to me that GW finally made good on the "why are you hosting Tournaments if you don't intend 40k as a WAAC tournament game?" by simply stopping to host Tournaments.

In the mean time, as everybody and their brother said they could do a better job, GW got out of their way and let them.

Good job and good riddance.

I know, there's been a frightening lack of Wrecking Crew-related drama on the internet lately. 'Ard Boyz is the only thing I have to look forward to in order to get my fix.

But yes, it seems as if GW finally threw up its hands and said "feth it." GW seems to behave a lot like I do, rather than spend a little time and effort improving things they just give up so they don't have to work too hard.

This will lead to more and more indy GTs popping up.

Sidstyler wrote:I know, there's been a frightening lack of Wrecking Crew-related drama on the internet lately. 'Ard Boyz is the only thing I have to look forward to in order to get my fix.

Why thank you for the un needed/wanted and irrelevant jab at the WC.

I am sorry that you seem fixated on your hate for us, but can we please keep it on topic, thanx.

"Oh look...he's got a WC banner in his sig, NOW'S MY CHANCE!"


EDIT: Yea, and if you're going to quote someone, it helps to get the quote right to avoid confusion. We understand however, you're blinded by your irrational hatred of the WC. Seek help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Good job and good riddance.

Yes, by all means, ignore what a decent percentage of your clientele want. Thats is after all a large part of the GW mantra right?

After all, tournaments werent a catalyst for anyone to build new armies or generate exitement in the hobby for anyone.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Yes, by all means, ignore what a decent percentage of your clientele want. Thats is after all a large part of the GW mantra right?

After all, tournaments werent a catalyst for anyone to build new armies or generate exitement in the hobby for anyone.

Tournie players are actually a very small part of the community. Your final sentence was wrong as it should say "were a catalyst for a few to build new armies"

Why put in some much effort for a part of the community you don't appreciate anyway and makes more noise than the rest of the community put together..

The other bit I don't get is: "This years lack of GT's has really rather bummed me out....I know there must be other tournament commando's out there that are hoping for GW to step it up and actually produce a venue for us to all get together and play again. "

Almost like GW is obliged to set these up for you? And the bolded bit actually shows that the community might even be smaller than I thought.

One company, one company producing decently sculpted fantasy and sci fi miniatures that can be fielded in half decent sized wars instead of skirmishes, produces a rulebook with tidy rules and commits it's self to tourneys...

C'mon, someone take the bloody throne, the king ain't dead but he's a dribbling senile, obese with profit and blinded with conceit. Some company come along and knock the bastard off his perch...

@DeadShane1: Chill dude, he took a jab but parry it a little. Don't let him troll you so hard.

Also, there has been a lack of WC drama... it are facts.

As for the actual topic at hand, I don't play in tournaments that often. The main reason being is that GW isn't interested in them and doesn't write their rules with the kind of clarity that can be used in that kind of setting. Hence their "d6 it!" policy with rules disputes and pretty bad unit balancing within each codex.

fullheadofhair wrote:

Tournie players are actually a very small part of the community. Your final sentence was wrong as it should say "were a catalyst for a few to build new armies"

Small part but a part nontheless. Also a part that spends money just like anyone else involved in this hobby.

Why put in some much effort for a part of the community you don't appreciate anyway and makes more noise than the rest of the community put together..

Same reason as gas stations have for putting a 'diesel' pump at one or more of their islands. Because there IS a demand, regardless of how big/small it is...its money to be had and clientele to satisfy.

The other bit I don't get is: "This years lack of GT's has really rather bummed me out....I know there must be other tournament commando's out there that are hoping for GW to step it up and actually produce a venue for us to all get together and play again

A LARGE part of my enjoyment in this hobby is getting together with friends that travel to tournement from other parts of the country. I'm not alone in this.

Almost like GW is obliged to set these up for you? And the bolded bit actually shows that the community might even be smaller than I thought.

They ARE obliged, they're a business, I'm a customer. If it wasnt for national tournements....I would've been gone a long time ago, along with several people I know. Maybe GW doesnt care about that dollar, but as a business, they should care about EVERY dollar...especially in these times.

Deadshane1 wrote:

They ARE obliged, they're a business, I'm a customer. If it wasnt for national tournements....I would've been gone a long time ago, along with several people I know. Maybe GW doesnt care about that dollar, but as a business, they should care about EVERY dollar...especially in these times.

What if they have made a choice that the costs of running these tournies actually outweight the benefits. Businesses aren't obliged to do anything for their customers - they ought to if they want to retain business but obviously they have decided they don't want to retain your business, and they are allowed to make that choice.

You purchase their product and then use in in a manner they don't agree with - why should they support its misuse. Now that is very tongue in cheek obviously.

fullheadofhair wrote:
What if they have made a choice that the costs of running these tournies actually outweight the benefits.

They don't, in the days of 3 or so GT's a year, it was known by and boasted by employees (of which I was one of) that the Baltimore GT used to actually pay for the other 2-3 tournaments to be held that year. Tournaments are profit, with minimal manpower needed.

Businesses aren't obliged to do anything for their customers - they ought to if they want to retain business but obviously they have decided they don't want to retain your business, and they are allowed to make that choice.

So as a business, they have decided that my dollar is unimportant. I wonder why they sell salads at McDonalds. Which company is wiser I wonder.

You purchase their product and then use in in a manner they don't agree with - why should they support its misuse. Now that is very tongue in cheek obviously.

Don't delude yourself, GW doesnt care what people do with their models...so long as they buy them. Ask any stockholder.

Sidstyler wrote:I know, there's been a frightening lack of Wrecking Crew-related drama on the internet lately. 'Ard Boyz is the only thing I have to look forward to in order to get my fix.

Quit trolling, you know better. Dragging this out is rude, immature, and irresponsible.

If you would like, I can email you a complete list of the Dakka rules again for your perusal. Or, you can just click the link to Rule #1 in my sig.

Sheesh.

From what I understand, GW will only be hosting 1 GT next year, in Vegas.

To qualify, you need to place at any of the indy GT's, like Adepticon etc.

Typeline wrote:@DeadShane1: Chill dude, he took a jab but parry it a little. Don't let him troll you so hard.

Also, there has been a lack of WC drama... it are facts.

...doesnt matter, as Iorek just pointed out, its totally against the rules.

Also, it has nothing at all to do with this rather valid subject.

What was the topic again

I think GW is wanting to make the GT's 'Grand' again. Why that would take a year of planning, I dunno, but they do a lot of things that baffle me.

I do believe that tournaments make money. Maybe not directly but everyone I know who goes to one makes an army specifically for it so that's $300-$800 per attendee easy.

GW is pulling the plug on these gatherings, it has been for a while, the cost for hosting was not high but it is most likely viewed as not cost effective by the people who sign off the expenses in the finance dept, people who are not part of the hobby and consider the demographic of 'older player, already spent their major contribution to the company in the last 10 years and most likely already adversarial/critical of the company' to be a poor outlet for this money. It is likely redirected at doing what GW's senior execs want it doing, latching into children to implant the hobby spending spree of the first 40k army, half completed second 40k army and the venture into fantasy army before deciding they miss the guns and space marines.

Look, not only do the shadowy overlords at GW consider the GTs a waste of money but the guys in the hobby and creative aspects of the company have moved even more to an adversarial position to tournaments. Jervis 'Standard Bearer of Bad Tidings' Johnson has repeated stated his dislike of the attitude of the competitive players.

Until something major happens at GW, like perhaps a board meeting when it's decided that tourneys could be really cool if they promoted them right and decided to formalise leagues and nationals and internationals, then I'm afraid the continued cutbacks are here to stay. The excuse of the economic climate has facilitated the bean counters to put a big red line through more people's fun and no one in senior positions in GW is inclined to stop it.

It's not hard to set up a convention or tournament.

It's hard work but it's not rocket science.

If GW let fall the torch, others can take it up.

Why respect the authority of a company that lets down its customers?

GW is in the business of making and selling toy soldiers, not running tournaments, so they really aren't letting their customers down.

I don't think the game is balanced enough for there to be a real tournament circuit the way Magic The Gathering is set up, or to have national rankings etc. In 3rd edition I could see it, but not anymore. There are too many weak armies for it to be so...heck, the signature "face" army isn't the one that wins the most....

KeithGatchalian wrote:

GW is in the business of making and selling toy soldiers, not running tournaments, so they really aren't letting their customers down.

I don't think the game is balanced enough for there to be a real tournament circuit the way Magic The Gathering is set up, or to have national rankings etc. In 3rd edition I could see it, but not anymore. There are too many weak armies for it to be so...heck, the signature "face" army isn't the one that wins the most....

If you can have a "Special Olympics", GW's rulesets don't have TOO too far to go before they're tournament worthy.

Does this mean that the recent threads page will have less "Help me make the perfect killer army for the next tournament" threads? We can only hope. By the way, I like the wrecking crew baiting. It's like Dakka's very own soap opera.

warpcrafter wrote:I like the wrecking crew baiting. It's like Dakka's very own soap opera.

Yea, its always fun to antagonise people when all they're doing is posing an interesting question for discussion. Especially when you're a keyboard rambo that has the internet to hide behind.

I steer clear of the drama myself, and dont appreciate when its pointed out in a thread that I pose for simple discussion. Especially when its pointed out simply to be antagonistic for no other reason than wanting to be a jerk.

One light-hearted jab and everyone's trying to claw at my fething throat, lmao.

I don't hate WC, in fact I've tried to stay as uninvolved as possible thus far (though it's hard to get involved when every thread gets locked by the time I read it), it was just a fething joke. I don't really thrive off your bs, I'm not "blinded by irrational hatred", I really, honestly couldn't care less.

As for quoting someone, I don't believe I quoted anyone in my post, is that what you're complaining about? Not only that but it didn't seem to confuse anyone anyway, you apparently knew who I was talking to because you didn't feel the need to add that part in until after you'd already posted, so what are you talking about?

Anyway, it was a stupid joke, I apologize, moving on...

The main reason being is that GW isn't interested in them and doesn't write their rules with the kind of clarity that can be used in that kind of setting. Hence their "d6 it!" policy with rules disputes and pretty bad unit balancing within each codex.

Indeed, the rules are horribly written, balanced, you name it, and don't lend themselves very well to the tournament environment at all. GW would have to completely revamp the entire system in order for me to even give tournaments a chance, but as it is now though the lack of tournament support doesn't really affect me either way. I wish they would put forth that effort into creating tighter rules (it would benefit all of us, not just tournament players) and making better tournaments, but they won't. It's up to the indies now, and from what I've heard they haven't been doing that much better, either (I really don't like pointlessly restrictive comp scoring, myself).

Maybe GW doesnt care about that dollar, but as a business, they should care about EVERY dollar...especially in these times.

I'm finding that GW doesn't care about a lot of dollars, lately. It's just mind boggling at times how little they seem to care about their own business and customer satisfaction, in fact every single move they've made lately has just pissed me off a little bit more and made me look harder and harder at other, better ways to spend my time and money. If it isn't ridiculous prices, then it's "extremely limited quantities", or lackluster Games Days, or more Space Marine codices...

Also, MGS speaks the truth, as much as I hate to admit it. fething bean counters.

If you can have a "Special Olympics", GW's rulesets don't have TOO too far to go before they're tournament worthy.

lolz, now there's an image.

GW is in the business of making and selling toy soldiers

Which have no use whatsoever to most people who don't play the game. I'd care to wager that GW makes more money on those of us who buy entire armies to play with than they do the hobby collector who buys one or two random models a month to paint up and put on a shelf.

Too often GW tries to get out of writing tighter rules because "they're in the business of making models", but if it weren't for the game and the need to have "official" GW models to play said game, no one would buy this overpriced crap to begin with.

Now if you excuse me, I need to go back under my bridge.

Yea, its always fun to antagonise people when all they're doing is posing an interesting question for discussion. Especially when you're a keyboard rambo that has the internet to hide behind.

I steer clear of the drama myself, and dont appreciate when its pointed out in a thread that I pose for simple discussion. Especially when its pointed out simply to be antagonistic for no other reason than wanting to be a jerk.

Okay! I realize I was a tad late getting this posted up, so I'll keep my mouth shut, but if this is going to continue then consider my apology rescinded.

Obviously I made a very inappropriate joke about a somewhat sensitive topic and I'd appreciate it if EVERYONE stfu about it already.

With all this talk about how GW's rules dont lend themselves well to tournament play...it makes me wonder why Adepticon is so wildly successful and why tournaments are so much fun to attend.

Certainly the ruleset can use some tightening, but tournaments can AND ARE held. Also, surprise surprise, they're FUN.

Hi all.
As 40k and WH have NEVER been written with competative play in mind.
And although the 'corperate hive mind' wanted to exploit the competative nature of some gamers, it has been deemed more trouble than it is worth by those at GW towers.

Deadshane1.
Just remember those compeating in the 'special olympics' have the 'disabilities' not those writing the rules or adjudicating the competition.
(I use the term 'disabilities' in a very loose sense and do not mean to cause offence to anyone.)

The current 40k rules are as far from suitable for competative play as a rule set can get.

However, I can sympathise with those loosing out on the social side of these types of event.

GW PLC is renown for its apathetic approach to all problems.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
As 40k and WH have NEVER been written with competative play in mind.
And although the 'corperate hive mind' wanted to exploit the competative nature of some gamers, it has been deemed more trouble than it is worth by those at GW towers.

is this speculation or do you have a GW mission statement in hand? I suspect that it's speculation.

They probably are fun, I've never actually played in one so I don't really know personally (so my opinion on tournaments actually means very little). Mostly I just can't afford the cost of traveling, but the tournament horror stories kinda scare me away from them as well.

I can't say that I'm a big tournament player, though I do attend a few local ones a year. As for the big ones, I'm not going to travel for them, just the way I am. That being said, there are definitely folks out there who can and do travel for the hobby. For those folks, the relative dearth of large tourneys is a negative thing and that's just unfortunate.

The hopeful part though comes out of the posts in this thread regarding the profitability of the various tournaments. If these things are indeed money makers, then there's nothing to worry about. Someone will step up to make a buck. We're definitely in a lull so far as these things go, this being the first year of no Grand Touneys and the like, but if these big tourneys are money makers, then we'll see more of them, whether GW runs them or not.

Hi Deadshane1.
Which part do you think is speculation?
40k has never been writen with competative play in mind.This has come directly from Rick Priestly and Jervis Johnson , on several occasions to several people.(Including me!)

The opportunity to exploit the competative nature of some gamers was taken up after 3rd ed 'streamlining.'The increased model count and (over) simplified rules made it easier to increase sales through efficiency see-saw ing of units performance.
Version 3.5 instigated 4th ed continued this policy.

Completly fed up with the 'highly vocal minority' Jervis and Allesio made it quite clear 5th ed 40k was not suited to the levels of competativenes some players were adopting.
And as this view has been growing in popularity amonst the corperate managment , as it let them take an apathetic option to not run/sponsor tournaments directly.

The last 10 years of 40k could be summed up by GW PLC being run by drooling idiots without any idea of what to do.
Or
GW PLC being run by buisnessmen exploiting a 'vunerable customer base' in every way they can think of to find the optimum amount of return from the minimum amount of effort on thier behalf.

I think the latter explanation is most likely.(Dont you?)

TTFN
Lanrak.

I think the part where you say that the upper eschelon of GW thinking that competetive gamers being more trouble than they're worth is speculation.

I think GW is concerned with nothing more than selling models. This is how its been for MANY years.

I also think that the ability to play a competetive game under the current ruleset is irrelevant tournament wise. Even if the ruleset is unable to support a tournament right now...they are still held, and hundreds of people every day have fun playing "competetive" games with this UN-competetive ruleset.

As far as what Rick Priestly and other EMPLOYEES say publicly....they say what they're ALLOWED to say. Basically, I dont put much stock in what is said in a White Dwarf article or an employee that could get fired for saying the wrong thing.

If Tournament players really were a significant and important part of GW's bottom-line profits, then I'm sure that GW would be bending over backwards to support it.

The very fact that GW is doing just fine in a declining / recessionary market from a bottom line profits standpoint while giving the Tournament crowd the proverbial finger (i.e. no FAQs, no US GTs, minimal Indy support) means that Tournaments really are an insignificant and unimportant part of their customer base.

Clearly, GTs have completed their purpose, and GW has moved beyond that phase in the same way that Wal-Mart no longer trumpets having the absolute lowest prices, IBM no longer pushes Selectric typewriters, and GM no longer makes Pontiac, Oldsmobile, or Saturn cars.

And, as a non-Tournament player, having GW pour more resources into fun things that I and my group can all enjoy (Apocalypse, Planetstrike, Planetary Empires, etc.) is a clear bonus.

Finally the idea that GW is *obliged* to run Tournaments for the few hundred people who happen to attend smacks of a sense of entitlement that is grossly out of whack.

If you need a Tournament-centric gaming company, perhaps you should cash out and play on the Magic Pro Tour?
____

MrGiggles wrote:If these things are indeed money makers, then there's nothing to worry about. Someone will step up to make a buck.

Exactly. The thing is, nearly everybody who runs big Tournaments (e.g. Mikhaila) says that these things are money-losers for quite a while. And having to scale up tot he point that you need a full weekend rental of a convention hall, well, that's some pretty big money if you aren't doing the entire thing with volunteer labor.

Deadshane1 wrote:I think the part where you say that the upper eschelon of GW thinking that competetive gamers being more trouble than they're worth is speculation.

I think GW is concerned with nothing more than selling models. This is how its been for MANY years.

That is also speculation on your part.

As far as what Rick Priestly and other EMPLOYEES say publicly....they say what they're ALLOWED to say. Basically, I dont put much stock in what is said in a White Dwarf article or an employee that could get fired for saying the wrong thing.

What I find funny is your refusal to accept that GW doesn't value tournies and that they can make a decision not to. The simple fact is, if it made more money than costs (inc PIA factor) they would do it - it would be as you say their only interest is in selling models. They don't change the rules, do FAQs when needed or listen to tournie players criticism and ignore what you need - heck we all now that a little bit of work wouldmake the rules better but GW stays silent. Why do you think that is? Well, I would say the only answer is they have judged tournie players aren't worth the investment.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
The very fact that GW is doing just fine in a declining / recessionary market from a bottom line profits standpoint while giving the Tournament crowd the proverbial finger (i.e. no FAQs, no US GTs, minimal Indy support) means that Tournaments really are an insignificant and unimportant part of their customer base.

ARE they "doing just fine"? Or are they still just keeping their head above water as they have been for the past several years? "Doing just fine" seems like a ridiculously optimistic appraisal of their current standing.

At any rate, I dont think any impact has been seen yet in their bottom line concerning GT's/no GT's, it would take some time to see if sales droop at all do to this decision. If anything, its a decision they made and are trying. I suspect if the bottom drops out and GW is in serious trouble...I'm betting that GT's would be something they would come back to in an attempt to get every single dollar possible to maintain and keep from being 'taken over'.

Hold on, I thought the Tournament sales argument was that people were buying brand NEW armies for upcoming Tournaments, and hence there would be immediate sales spikes upon announcement of a GT.

If the argument is that it's a slower thing, then there were no sales spikes in the first place, and Tournaments are even less of a benefit to GW.

Yes John, GW keeps a day to day track of every model sold....everywhere, and why it was sold, for tournament or no.


Of course I could be mistaken and they simply look at profits at the end of each year. Its possible that tournament gamers could drive that number up just a teensie bit.

/facepalm

JohnHwangDD wrote:

And, as a non-Tournament player, having GW pour more resources into fun things that I and my group can all enjoy (Apocalypse, Planetstrike, Planetary Empires, etc.) is a clear bonus.

Finally the idea that GW is *obliged* to run Tournaments for the few hundred people who happen to attend smacks of a sense of entitlement that is grossly out of whack.

The idea you will 'reap the benefits' from the greatsatan ceasing it's interests in tournaments is highly unlikely. It will simply lay off the staff that ran that area or absorb them back into it's gelatinous folds and spit them back out as mail order trolls or, as i suspect, events designed to hook children to it's very expensive (and not quite as good as) cocaine.

No, GW is not obliged to run tournaments, but considering it has run tournaments for a considerable time as a method of spreading it's influence, it would have been the decent thing to do to at least make a solid statement to the effect that it's going to run less and less until they disappear. But as I've said, Jervis has been alluding to that via his sneering commentary in the direction of competitive play.

I've already reaped the benefits by having Apoc and Reload and PS and PE being created and released at all, along with a new, cleaner version of the base rules.

If the Tournament = important myth really were true, then all of those would have gone into Tournament support such as FAQs and GT planning so on.

As a casual player, I like and agree with Jervis' commentary. The fact that you dislike the message is no reason to slur the messenger.

As a casual gamer myself, having never participated in the tourneys once, I happen to sympathise with those who I share a common hobby who have been left without support from a company they have paid for products from that has subsequently changed it's direction and appears to have left them without previously arranged tournaments and more importantly without an explanation.

You have not 'reaped the benefits' of the tournaments going ahead by obtaining those products, are you seriously telling me that if the tourneys had gone ahead, GW would have sacrificed producing new things to sell? That's somewhat difficult to fathom. Tournaments are important to the hundreds of people who travel hundreds of miles to support and participate in them.

And JJ's standard bearer articles are frequently sneering and patronising. As an adult reading that, I'm surprised you didn't have enough self worth to feel someone angry that a guy, who's reliant on you and me and the rest of the readers buying the stuff to keep him in oil of ulay, just can't help coming across as a colossal gloater.

I don't see any sneering or patronizing in Jervis' writing. As I read it, he's laying the facts on the table as best he sees it. Whether some people are unhappy, them's the breaks.

It amuses that people want more transparency from GW about their direction, and when Jervis actually bothers to take some time to write something, they get excoriated for it.

As for new things to sell, when GW was busying themselves writing FAQs and compiling them into Chapter Approved / Warhammer Chronicles for Tournament-type play, I don't recall any Apoc type expansions coming out.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The fact that you dislike the message is no reason to slur the messenger.

When the message is that people who play differently are bad people, then yes it is. Especially when the 'messanger' is actually the person creating the message.

GW have never busied themselves with the FAQs john, ever, they have given them a modicum more (ie some) attention in the past but we are talking bare minimum. I strongly suspect all the new and shiney PS and PE comes about from the fact they no longer supplement or support their 'specialist' games.

Removal of tournaments does not equal lots more stuff for the casual gamer. Tournaments did not divert much attention from the design studio or the people measuring production vs profit.

As to Jervis, I find his writing overweening and twee, i stopped reading his articles some time ago, but a further discussion on JJ would be a further diversion from the nature of this thread and so i'll leave that one alone.

Back in 3rd, GW published new FAQs and Q&A practically every month.

Removal of Tournaments did something, and as I see it, the money-losing SG resources moved over to the money-making LotR / WorR as a new main game. So I think those 40k resources went in to casual-friendly expansions.

skyth wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The fact that you dislike the message is no reason to slur the messenger.

When the message is that people who play differently are bad people, then yes it is. Especially when the 'messanger' is actually the person creating the message.

"Of course there is no right way to play our games, which means that my job as a games developer is to ensure that our games work as well as they possibly can, both for basement players like Ryan through to the most dedicated tournament players....

.....if you're a member of a basement gamers group you might want to try and venture forth and take part in a tournament -- they're a great way of meeting new players and seeing some of the best the hobby has to offer." -------------Jervis Johnson

Wow - lots of armchair quarterbacks that really think they got GW figured out in this thread. But - notice no GW employee's have posted here - thus all is just nothing but personal opinions and idle speculation. Deadshane's initial question though is a good one for discussion.

So - my personal thoughts.

To think that GW cares nothing about tournaments is foolish. They STARTED the grand tournaments back in the 90's. The were events where only a limited number of people were accepted - first come first served. They were a big deal. It's a part of the hobby that really appeals to a pretty broad group of players and is a big publicity event for the hobby. GW sends their "hobby celebrities" to the events for reasons. The amount of discussions, posts, coverage etc that events like GT's, Adepticon, The Waagh, Necro etc generate proves that. Not everyone is into that - but to underestimate the numbers of people that the tournaments

I think that the tournaments have suffered some from an over saturation and challenges for GW to set a true direction for how they want to run them. I imagine that there were significant costs associated with them - and concern that their was a cost benefit analysis. I think that they really are searching for the best way to run them that is profitable and good for their company - yet still appeals to the hobby community.

I think this year and maybe next, may be an experimental year for GW. Economy is down - expenses are tight - let's cut the tournaments and see if the community will rise and run them themselves. If they could get a self supporting circuit in place - that they provide assistance to - then host a "championship" tourney once a year, might that not be a good thing for GW?

Will be interesting to see what they do with it. I personally don't believe for a second that GW will do away with them or not work to support it in the future. It's too good for their hobby not to.

I just want the Vegas GT back. I'm a casual gamer, but I have been to a couple of local tourneys and both the Vegas GTs. I had a blast at both of them. Met a bunch of really cool people, played a bunch of great games (got my butt handed to me in most, but still a lot of fun). Las Vegas as a location is great for me as Chicago and Baltimore are too far away. And come on... it's Vegas, baby!

The really strange thing is that the euro stuff is still around and run by GW themselves. So some of them must think tournaments are worth it, rather seems like US is the thing thats beeing cut off for some reason.

Deadshane, so are you saying that without the GTs you do not play?

Aren't there RTT all over the country? Is there a minimum number of players before you are willing to attend?

I don't get it. If visiting and playing old opponents/friends is your big fix, Call them up and get together with them at your own tournament.

I see plenty of comments that GW isn't doing it for you. So do it for yourself.

I remember when the GTs started, they were a big deal because they were it. there was no Adepticon.

Adepticon came about because some devoted people wanted to do a tournament their own way. So they did it.

Deadshane1 wrote:With all this talk about how GW's rules dont lend themselves well to tournament play...it makes me wonder why Adepticon is so wildly successful and why tournaments are so much fun to attend.

Certainly the ruleset can use some tightening, but tournaments can AND ARE held. Also, surprise surprise, they're FUN.

Adepticon has a good FAQ list and it attracts the right kind of people.

There's no such thing as a perfect set of rules. Every rule-book needs a bit of explanation or correction.

40K is much worse than most, mainly because of the problems with the codexes. The core 5e rules are reasonably well written now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
__________________________________________________________________

MOD:

There have been a couple of alerts about this thread. I see there has been some inappropriate demolition controversy in a couple of posts.

An apology was given so I'm taking no further action.

Just remember...

Few things:

1st, any "for fun" gamers that are happy about tournements going to the wayside...shouldnt be. Anything that lessens the hobby...FOR ANYONE...lessens the hobby, period. Stompa is correct when he states that Apoc, planetstrike and anything else comes out regardless of there being tournaments or not. These things will happen whether or not there are tournaments every year.

No Tournaments is a bad thing however you look at it. No Tournaments is a disappointment for a portion of individuals that participate in our hobby. It's better to have EVERYONE happy and spending money with gusto. Rather than have Tournament gamers have no events to look forward to and therefore less reason to come up with a new army for the coming tournament season.

No Tournaments lessens our hobby, its bad for everyone. It lessens the exitement, online buzz, and yes...income for GW in some capacity.

2nd, Cost of Tournaments

Let me illustrate this for everyone. In days past, GT's were run by a skeleton crew of around 5 GW employees to act as judges/officials. A large portion of the "labor", setting up, rules questions, and whatever else would come up, were handled by volunteers (outriders) that were indeed NOT paid for the weekend...but given product in payment for their services. This amounts to almost FREE labor for GW to run the Tournament. While our models are indeed expensive...honestly, they cost very little to make/package.

So, thus far you have actually only say 5 employees to pay for a weekend of wages. Now the hall/hotel must be leased out for the weekend. I do not claim to know the cost of such but it doesnt amount to the fee's that people pay for the actual GT ticket....

Let's assume 100 dollars per entry, then what....300 players? In the past in fact, they charged even more but featured Hotel rooms for the weekend, I dunno what kind of scam they ran with the hotels but I doubt very much that both the Hotel AND GW didnt benefit somehow from THAT deal.

Also factor in some sales personel peddling GW product....more income for GW.

My point here is that the tournaments are NOT run at a loss. While the income from a tournament may be negligible at the end of the year, it would still result in a positive number for the company...not only in income, but the buzz it produces due to the exitement beforehand.

Again, it was widely known in the past that GW made enough from the Baltimore tournament to run the remainder of the tournaments in that given year....any of the other tournaments were in the black. These things are NOT that expensive to run, and require a skeleton crew of officials with volunteers picking up the slack after being "paid" next to nothing. (product)

Lastly @skrulnik

Indeed, I can see without National tournament....I probably WOULD eventually quit playing....altogether. I'm pushing 40 with a real career and honestly dont have the time to put into this hobby. However, I MAKE time because I have old friends of 20 years or so who all travel to these national events. To get together again and pretend we're once again college kids playing games all weekend and partying. THAT is what GW gaming means to me. I put together an army so that I can socialise with friends that I havent seen all year, its an excuse to get together with these guys (and away from the wife!) who I've bonded with so strongly over the past several years. Without that incentive, its much easier to simply turn on my XBOX and play some Fallout, watch movies on my Blue-Ray, or get older. (yes, the hobby keeps you young)

Without National Tournaments in some capacity...these old friends that in some cases are across the country 1000's of miles away will wind up falling to the wayside due to the other demands of life. As crappy as that sounds...its true. I know I'm not alone in this...and while its not GW's responsibility to "maintain my social life" I can be upset that they're knocking off GT's. Eventually, GW will lose my money. One player less playing GW games lessens the hobby, perhaps just a very miniscule amount, but lessens it nontheless. I can guarantee that I wont be the only one spending less money on GW product if Tournaments are given up on.

So, what about BoLScon then?

There is quite a bit of rampant speculation going on here (which is generally what people like to do when actual facts are scarce), but let's take a second to do a quick fact check:

1) Games Workshop has different divisions that are responsible for running events in different countries.
2) GW doesn't appear to be running any US GTs this year. There is no indication one way or another whether or not they will be running US GTs next year or beyond.
3) GW US went through a major restructuring this year (combining GW Canada into one North American GW division that I'm still calling 'GW US' in this post for the sake of simplicity).
4) GW US still employs at least a few people in the Community Events department ('GoGo' and one other fellow, I believe).
5) GW is continuing to run GTs in the UK this year as well as (I believe) some other European Countries.


So given that GW is continuing to run GTs in other countries, does it not stand to reason that assuming that 'GW' as some monolithic entity has 'decided' one way or another to support or not support tournaments as a whole is a little bit premature?

Could it not just be that the divisional shake-up in North America means they've needed to take some time off to restructure and rethink how (or if) they wish to continue to run US GTs?

Perhaps it may end up being that GW US ultimately decides that GTs in the US are not something they feel is worthwhile. But as long as GW continues to run GTs in other countries it should be easy to recognize that this isn't some global mandate from GW, but rather a local issue having to do with issues stemming within the US events department.

We just don't have enough information to know for sure. So yes, you can continue speculating one way or another about what is happening, but in reality unless you can phone the US events department and get some concrete info you're just going to have to sit and play the waiting game to see if and when US GTs return.

Hi again.
I hope you didnt get the impression I was 'happy' that GW PLC have withdrawn even more support for gamers.

I am not suprised by GW PLC taking the path of least resistance.It seems to be a re-occuring policy.

Relese new codexes for armies whole editions out of date , OR re vamp the SM , (and make up new chapter specific codexes,)and make a ton of cash with little investment ?

Respond to the game play - game ballance issues bought up on the GW web site, OR just close it down.

After letting lots of gamers think that 40k is suitable for competative play and taking thier cash, work out a tournament FAQs to adress gameplay ballance issues, OR just stop supporting tournaments directly.

I am sure Jervis has to tow the company line , or loose his job when making statments in public.
Jervis has supported narrative play strongly, and promoted the social nature of tournaments as a good thing openly.
He has NEVER officialy said that 40k was developed for competative play, and has made it quite clear some people were taking the game of 40k to levels of competativeness that it simply was not intended for.

I am not defending GW PLC or GW staff.

It may be down to cultural differenceis. In Britain instructions tell you what to do, everything else is assumed to be 'not recommended'.


Being a gamer first and foremost,I personaly prefer games companies that support game play and gamers far more than GW PLC does.

GW screwing over gamers yet again, not a suprise , and still not welcomed by anyone .

TTFN
Lanrak.

I think you hit the nail on the head YAK

They seem to have a number of options ahead of them...

1. do a qualifier style with the indys as the start with one GT at the end.

2. do a hall of heroes (canada) stlye combining indys and rtt's with a GT at the end

3. have 2 or 3 GT's by them selves

4. do the circuit again with 2 or 3 gt's

5. or do nothing at all with GT's

6. put all resources into games day stuff

what do I think would be best?

Definatly resurect the circuit, takes very little effort to support it and it ties all the indys into one big event. Do stories on the winners, painters, clubs, mad converters, and anything else. post a few pics up and stories...free promo of your product.

then whatever way they want to do it, 2 or 3 GT's or the one big one at the end....whatever way just keep """Vegas"""please.............................

Sidstyler wrote:

Maybe GW doesnt care about that dollar, but as a business, they should care about EVERY dollar...especially in these times.

I'm finding that GW doesn't care about a lot of dollars, lately. It's just mind boggling at times how little they seem to care about their own business and customer satisfaction, in fact every single move they've made lately has just pissed me off a little bit more and made me look harder and harder at other, better ways to spend my time and money. If it isn't ridiculous prices, then it's "extremely limited quantities", or lackluster Games Days, or more Space Marine codices...

this is exactly why i got into historicals. namely WAB. now its not what i usually play, i play alot of fantasy/40k but i like the easy to grasp and balanced rules.

GW doesn't host tournaments in Australia, players do. Surely America is the same?

Fundamentally, if large Tournaments really are easy and don't lose money, then the complete lack of competition from GW should mean that independent Tournaments should be flourishing in the US. There should be more than just Adepticon and BOLScon.

GW does nothing to stop independent Tournaments, and they've always encouraged such things, because they know that these things really don't cost them anything except some marginal prize support.

But the idea that the only cost to GW is 5 redshirts for 3 days is complete and utter nonsense. Anybody from GW on site is pulling full salary for the entire time that they are on site. Anybody not local has travel and lodging costs. Everybody has parking costs, although parking might be "discounted". Nearly all GT events are in convention centers which cost a pretty penny to rent for a weekend. Somebody from marketing has to do event creation, promotion, website, materials, etc.. Somebody from accounting has to process registrations, and pay the vendors. Somebody has to create all of the terrain, and then ship it to and from the site. All of these are costs that would need to be recovered if not done for "free" by volunteers. And of course, there's corporate overhead to consider...

The only things that one can pretend to stand on their own are the GW & FW sales onsite. But the idea that these are money-makers for GW is pretty hard to believe.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
But the idea that the only cost to GW is 5 redshirts for 3 days is complete and utter nonsense.

Good thing noone said that then. Of course I didnt post an all inclusive expense receipt for GW concerning a GT...since such a post would be tiresome and tedious.

the idea that these are money-makers for GW is pretty hard to believe.

Definatly hard to beleive, of course GW would throw money away for these things since at least '95....thats 13 years...many of those years having expanded to feature MULTIPLE tournaments. Yes, all those tournaments were run at a loss...every time.

Yes indeed, VERY hard to beleive they ever made money at them.

I think Yak hit it on the head with linking the US GT's to GW's re-organization of their North American operations. I think GT's will return in some form, I'd like to see that happen even though I've never been to one. I liked seeing the coverage of them and especially seeing shots of the armies, some of which were very creative.
Even though I've never gone to a GT and haven't played in an RTT in years I see them as a valuable part of the overall health of the hobby.

I think a situation could arise, especially as the economy recovers that you see more independent tournaments created. As I already stated I think GT's will return in some form. So there's a possibility for a strong tournament scene in the near future.

Like alot of other topics I think analyzing the overall costs of the GT's is more complex than it seems on the surface. We can sit back and speculate about GW's motives, but that's about all we are going to accomplish. I personally think that they see GT's as another form of advertising, if so it would follow that like most projects they'd want to see a certain level of return on that investment, however large or small their expected return may be. If it was my business I'd be looking hard at monthly sales totals in the 2-3 month period prior to and after a GT, specifically focusing on sales within the region hosting it.

I think with the economy in the state it has been for awhile GW may simply have anticipated that fewer players would have been able/willing to travel to the GT's and alongside their north american opertions being re-organized saw the easier path as cancelling them for a year. While disappointing it may allow them to bring them back in some better format.

I think there is something fairly critical being overlooked in this.

There appears to be an assumption that Tournament players are less supported than Casual players, yes?

I call shenanigans on that one. GW have released 5th Ed as a sort of modular rules set. Main book tells you how to play 40k, and expansions offer specialised battlefields complete with additional rules and tricks. This benefits everyone, as even a Tournament Player plays casually.

So rather than being underserved, you are served exactly the same as everyone else, but seem to want something a little extra to prove you are the best. GW already have your money, and the money of thousands and thousands of gamers who don't play in Tournaments. Why should they invest additional money to please a minority, when the majority appears pretty happy with things as they are?

Apocalupse and Planetstrike, as with every new book released, drive sales far far more than the Tournament scene ever could, so please don't claim some kind of saviour like spending ability, as it is simply untrue.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I think there is something fairly critical being overlooked in this.

There appears to be an assumption that Tournament players are less supported than Casual players, yes?

I call shenanigans on that one. GW have released 5th Ed as a sort of modular rules set. Main book tells you how to play 40k, and expansions offer specialised battlefields complete with additional rules and tricks. This benefits everyone, as even a Tournament Player plays casually.

So rather than being underserved, you are served exactly the same as everyone else, but seem to want something a little extra to prove you are the best. GW already have your money, and the money of thousands and thousands of gamers who don't play in Tournaments. Why should they invest additional money to please a minority, when the majority appears pretty happy with things as they are?

Apocalupse and Planetstrike, as with every new book released, drive sales far far more than the Tournament scene ever could, so please don't claim some kind of saviour like spending ability, as it is simply untrue.

All I'm saying is that I'm upset with the lack of GW sponsored tournements that I've enjoyed over the last 12-13 years. Upset with "all of a sudden" not having them to go to.

Same way as you'd be completely justified in going to McDonalds to order your 'Big Mac on Wednesday' only to see that McD's has done away with Big Mac's entirely....with no reason other than. "We're not making them anymore and we really dont have to give you a reason. Choose something else from the menu, we dont care how much you like 'Big Macs' since everyone else orders 1/4 pounders."

Deadshane1 wrote:
All I'm saying is that I'm upset with the lack of GW sponsored tournements that I've enjoyed over the last 12-13 years. Upset with "all of a sudden" not having them to go to.

Same way as you'd be completely justified in going to McDonalds to order your 'Big Mac on Wednesday' only to see that McD's has done away with Big Mac's entirely....with no reason other than. "We're not making them anymore and we really dont have to give you a reason. Choose something else from the menu, we dont care how much you like 'Big Macs' since everyone else orders 1/4 pounders."

Your comparison may be more insightful than you realize....perhaps they are modeling their tournament support on other sales strategies...

I would to see the GW GTs make a comeback. They tend to be well run are always a lot of fun. For me they are an opportunity to spend time with friends I don't see often and play a lot of games in a short period of time. I think they will comeback, but I don't have a good feel for the priority level.

G

I still do not understand why the RTT that are all over are not good enough for you and your tournament going friends.

Your big issue seems to be that GW isn't running them.

Well woop de doo.. Adepticon, BoLSCon, the Big Waagh. I am sure I have read of others.

They are all tournaments that are going to be or have been run this year.

Adepticon was great this past year, will be great in the coming year. It isn't the only player run tourney out there.

Just maybe the friends you hope to see will be at one of them.

If you are ignoring those events because they are not the "GT Circuit", then you are just whining. There is no need to keep trying to justify your complaint.

skrulnik wrote:I still do not understand why the RTT that are all over are not good enough for you and your tournament going friends.

I'm not going to waste time comparing "national event" GT's to RTT's. It's not even comparing apples to oranges. More like apples to power tools.

Here's a hint though, people will purchase a 300 dollar plane ticket and spend upwards of 500 bucks for a weekend hotel room to attend a GT or Adepticon event....and be happy with the expenditure.

...anyone who would do the same for a RTT event is simply a blithering idiot.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I think there is something fairly critical being overlooked in this.

There appears to be an assumption that Tournament players are less supported than Casual players, yes?

I call shenanigans on that one. GW have released 5th Ed as a sort of modular rules set. Main book tells you how to play 40k, and expansions offer specialised battlefields complete with additional rules and tricks. This benefits everyone, as even a Tournament Player plays casually.

So rather than being underserved, you are served exactly the same as everyone else, but seem to want something a little extra to prove you are the best. GW already have your money, and the money of thousands and thousands of gamers who don't play in Tournaments. Why should they invest additional money to please a minority, when the majority appears pretty happy with things as they are?

Apocalupse and Planetstrike, as with every new book released, drive sales far far more than the Tournament scene ever could, so please don't claim some kind of saviour like spending ability, as it is simply untrue.

All I'm saying is that I'm upset with the lack of GW sponsored tournements that I've enjoyed over the last 12-13 years. Upset with "all of a sudden" not having them to go to.

Same way as you'd be completely justified in going to McDonalds to order your 'Big Mac on Wednesday' only to see that McD's has done away with Big Mac's entirely....with no reason other than. "We're not making them anymore and we really dont have to give you a reason. Choose something else from the menu, we dont care how much you like 'Big Macs' since everyone else orders 1/4 pounders."

I see where you're coming from matey, and I'm not just dick posting to annoy people. But running a Tournament costs GW money which, assumedly (I don't actually know for sure though) they don't necessarily get back from the people attending. I mean, you have to hire the venue, provide the tables and terrain, pay the staff etc. All adds up.

But to say Tournament players are getting stiffed over Casual players simply isn't true. Your above analogy isn't terribly accurate as to McD's, whichever cardboard flavoured filth you order, it's pretty standard fare. What I'm getting at is the Tournament player is like someone ordering a customised Burger, ala no Pickles, extra Lettuce, then finding out that they no longer offer the customisation service. You still have the same options and support as the other customers not fussed for Burger related tinkerings, but to say that you are now marginalised just isn't accurate.

And as others have said, there are still Tournaments. Lots of them. Just GW no longer invest time and effort in running them.

Deadshane1 wrote:

I'm not going to waste time comparing "national event" GT's to RTT's. It's not even comparing apples to oranges. More like apples to power tools.

Here's a hint though, people will purchase a 300 dollar plane ticket and spend upwards of 500 bucks for a weekend hotel room to attend a GT or Adepticon event....and be happy with the expenditure.

...anyone who would do the same for a RTT event is simply a blithering idiot.

So now Adepticon is run by GW???

And good job insulting all those devoted people who put on the RTTs.

Apparently the elitist note in your previous posts was intentional.

skrulnik wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

I'm not going to waste time comparing "national event" GT's to RTT's. It's not even comparing apples to oranges. More like apples to power tools.

Here's a hint though, people will purchase a 300 dollar plane ticket and spend upwards of 500 bucks for a weekend hotel room to attend a GT or Adepticon event....and be happy with the expenditure.

...anyone who would do the same for a RTT event is simply a blithering idiot.

So now Adepticon is run by GW???

And good job insulting all those devoted people who put on the RTTs.

Apparently the elitist note in your previous posts was intentional.

I think everyone here knows what sort of RTT I'm talking about. People dont 'Travel' vast distances and take out hotel rooms for simple RTT's alone.

When you go to Adepticon, you're "Going to Adepticon", not "Going to an RTT. Oh, btw its at Adepticon."

Deadshane1 wrote:

I think everyone here knows what sort of RTT I'm talking about.

I don't. Would you mind filling in people such as myself who don't follow you?

Bunker wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

I think everyone with intelligence here knows what sort of RTT I'm talking about.

I don't. Would you mind filling in people such as myself who don't follow you?

There we go, fixed it for the smart apples.

I'd actually love to see the tournament scene flounder and die.

Get the hobby back to where it was 10 years ago when it was a more friendly game without all the min/maxing.

I think losing some of the RP elements RT had has really hurt 40k.

R3con wrote:I'd actually love to see the tournament scene flounder and die.

Get the hobby back to where it was 10 years ago when it was a more friendly game without all the min/maxing.

I think losing some of the RP elements RT had has really hurt 40k.

Wow, were you even here 10 years ago?

Nothing has changed, there have been, and always will be, competetive gamers.

"I'd love to see the tournament scene flounder and die." No you wouldnt, if you love your hobby, you'd want to see it healthy and reaping rewards for GW to ensure their healthy business profile.

R3con wrote:I'd actually love to see the tournament scene flounder and die.

Get the hobby back to where it was 10 years ago when it was a more friendly game without all the min/maxing.

I think losing some of the RP elements RT had has really hurt 40k.

There is entirely room for both. Whilst I doubt I would enjoy playing in tourneys, I can well see the appeal of them and wouldn't mind seeing a few more.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:I know, there's been a frightening lack of Wrecking Crew-related drama on the internet lately. 'Ard Boyz is the only thing I have to look forward to in order to get my fix.

Why thank you for the un needed/wanted and irrelevant jab at the WC.

I am sorry that you seem fixated on your hate for us, but can we please keep it on topic, thanx.

"Oh look...he's got a WC banner in his sig, NOW'S MY CHANCE!"


EDIT: Yea, and if you're going to quote someone, it helps to get the quote right to avoid confusion. We understand however, you're blinded by your irrational hatred of the WC. Seek help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Good job and good riddance.

Yes, by all means, ignore what a decent percentage of your clientele want. Thats is after all a large part of the GW mantra right?

After all, tournaments werent a catalyst for anyone to build new armies or generate exitement in the hobby for anyone.

Sounds like a job opportunity Deady. the old volunteer mantra has now occurred. If you complain about, you're now in charge of it.
I expect to hear details of your new tourney next week-and pronto!

There is room for both, just as there should be room to discuss this issue without resorting to personal attacks, thinly veiled or not.

This thread is coming close to the edge as it is, and is generating way too many Mod Alerts.

Keep it civil, or wave goodbye to it.

I like gaming. I like tournament gaming, I like pick up gaming. I like traveling to game, I like gaming local. I like to game. I'm sure I'm not the only gamer who feels this way. Tournaments are great and I hope GW brings back the GTs. I might go to one, I might not. I fail to see how someone who has no intention of going to a GT hopes to see the scene "flounder and die". A lack of GTs isn't going to keep people from min/maxing. That will always happen.

Frazzled wrote:I expect to hear details of your new tourney next week-and pronto!

Sadly...I'm expecting to move back home to Texas within the next 6 months to year. After I get settled in and things back to normal, you'll be the first to know.

Was seriously thinking about starting up...Deadcon.

Ohh.... Now I like McRib!

Of course, it sucks that McD no longer is doing the Beanie Baby Happy Meals. As a customer spanning 4 decades of patronage, I am far more entitled to demand McD provide a perpetual Beanie Baby McRib Happy Meal, than some newbie demanding Tournaments with only a dozen years as a customer with GW.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Ohh.... Now I like McRib!

Most logical thing you've said in 3 pages!

JohnHwangDD wrote:If Tournament players really were a significant and important part of GW's bottom-line profits, then I'm sure that GW would be bending over backwards to support it.

The very fact that GW is doing just fine in a declining / recessionary market from a bottom line profits standpoint while giving the Tournament crowd the proverbial finger (i.e. no FAQs, no US GTs, minimal Indy support) means that Tournaments really are an insignificant and unimportant part of their customer base.

Clearly, GTs have completed their purpose, and GW has moved beyond that phase in the same way that Wal-Mart no longer trumpets having the absolute lowest prices, IBM no longer pushes Selectric typewriters, and GM no longer makes Pontiac, Oldsmobile, or Saturn cars.

And, as a non-Tournament player, having GW pour more resources into fun things that I and my group can all enjoy (Apocalypse, Planetstrike, Planetary Empires, etc.) is a clear bonus.

Finally the idea that GW is *obliged* to run Tournaments for the few hundred people who happen to attend smacks of a sense of entitlement that is grossly out of whack.

If you need a Tournament-centric gaming company, perhaps you should cash out and play on the Magic Pro Tour?

Even if true (and it is a certain amount of speculation on your part!), you realize that's a viewpoint that it going to generate a bit of heat in this topic, right?

@Alpharius, I'm fully aware of that possibility. And yes, there are definitely a few minor leaps of faith embedded in my reply.

But then, this topic was designed to generate more heat than light from the OP and the OP's follow-ups, so, no, I'm not worried.

I mean, the Mods are actively letting the OP set the tone with his "/facepalm" antics and other stuff to stoke the fires, and I'm being far less personally antagonistic than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Ohh.... Now I like McRib!

Most logical thing you've said in 3 pages!

the only logical thing you've ever said...



and with that, I'm out of this thread.

If you've got a problem with a /facepalm or something, hit the Alert button.

Even Moderators can't read every single post, despite our superpowers.

Deadshane1 wrote:"I'd love to see the tournament scene flounder and die." No you wouldnt, if you love your hobby, you'd want to see it healthy and reaping rewards for GW to ensure their healthy business profile.

I'm curious as to why you think this. Outside of advertising, I'm not sure what tournaments do for GW as a business, and even the advertising benefits seem capricious at best. What I mean is that the tournaments are for established players, and the events don't lend themselves well to introducing new customers to the game.

In addition, the big sellers for GW over the last few years seem more casual oriented, with expansions like Cities of Death, Apocalypse, and Planetstrike. These expansions not only cater to the casual crowd, but they generate huge sales in miniatures and terrain. Because of inherent restrictions to point costs, tournaments do not currently encourage miniature sales on the same scale as "casual gamer" expansions.

I do love my hobby, and want to see it healthy and reaping rewards for GW. My question is this: I'm a casual gamer who does not attend tournaments. How does the current status of the tournament circuit in the US affect me? How does the status of the tournament circuit ensure GW has a health business profile?

I have nothing against tourneys, I'm just wondering about this part of your argument.

Bottom line is tournaments cost money and probably more money then they bring in. So it makes sense for them to cancel the GTs.

I would suggest, and I am not being sarcastic, that you look into how much it would cost you to actually run a top of the line tournament convention.

Very expensive and very time consuming.

@John

I asked for discussion on the lack of Tournaments this year, thats all. I didnt do it to generate heat, I did it because I'm concerned.

Just because YOU took it as an antagonistic post (Lord knows why) doesnt make it so...you came in gunz a blazing though.

With that said...I'm glad you're out. Maybe the Tourney-goers who this thread was truly targetted at will have something interesting to add.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Even Moderators can't read every single post, despite our superpowers.

Three of you are participating in the discussion contained this thread, you'd think at least one of you would have read all of it. There's some less than obvious flaming and trolling being done, and the free pass that the individual is getting (and has gotten in the past) is becoming more and more apparent.

On topic though, I agree with Frazzled. It's about time for everyone complaining of lack of "GT-esque" tournaments to put your money where your mouth is. If you want tournaments, start organizing them. He-who-shall-not-be-named is doing it, so why can't other people?

You do realize that we're often pulled in many directions here, right?

Just because a Mod posts in the thread, well, sadly, doesn't mean he's read it all!

Most times, I only have time to respond to the Mod Alert in question, with some backtracking to get the lay of the land and all that...

Again, the best way to make sure that a Mod sees something he should see?

The Mod Alert Button.

Bunker wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Even Moderators can't read every single post, despite our superpowers.

Three of you are participating in the discussion contained this thread, you'd think at least one of you would have read all of it. There's some less than obvious flaming and trolling being done, and the free pass that the individual is getting (and has gotten in the past) is becoming more and more apparent.

On topic though, I agree with Frazzled. It's about time for everyone complaining of lack of "GT-esque" tournaments to put your money where your mouth is. If you want tournaments, start organizing them. He-who-shall-not-be-named is doing it, so why can't other people?

If a user gets angry or feels insulted by something, the proper course of action is to click the Alert button, not just hope that a moderator read whatever you want to complain about.

Bunker wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Even Moderators can't read every single post, despite our superpowers.

Three of you are participating in the discussion contained this thread, you'd think at least one of you would have read all of it. There's some less than obvious flaming and trolling being done, and the free pass that the individual is getting (and has gotten in the past) is becoming more and more apparent.

Agreed, there is certainly some passive/aggressive sentiment in the thread (some of it was aimed at you a page or two back).

I honestly think most of the aggressive posts here were perpetrated by the Tourney haterz....sort of in a "I told you so" context. Anything otherwise is the rest of us just trying to hold discussion. Maybe with a few snyde but well deserved mild retorts.

IMO that is a line of enquiry best avoided.

Let's all get back on topic.

Kilkrazy wrote:IMO that is a line of enquiry best avoided.

Let's all get back on topic.

Agreed.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Bunker wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

I think everyone with intelligence here knows what sort of RTT I'm talking about.

I don't. Would you mind filling in people such as myself who don't follow you?

There we go, fixed it for the smart apples.

I honestly think most of the aggressive posts here were perpetrated by the Tourney haterz....sort of in a "I told you so" context. Anything otherwise is the rest of us just trying to hold discussion. Maybe with a few snyde but well deserved mild retorts.

I'm simply pointing out that snide retorts such as the above quoted certainly don't elevate or maintain the discussion. I'm not being confrontational when posting this, I'm simply pointing out that even if you don't intend to be degrading...the nature of online conversations tend to amplify such remarks.

/Shrug I'm obviously not a Mod though, so if they are down with it...so am I

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Bunker wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

I think everyone with intelligence here knows what sort of RTT I'm talking about.

I don't. Would you mind filling in people such as myself who don't follow you?

There we go, fixed it for the smart apples.

I honestly think most of the aggressive posts here were perpetrated by the Tourney haterz....sort of in a "I told you so" context. Anything otherwise is the rest of us just trying to hold discussion. Maybe with a few snyde but well deserved mild retorts.

I'm simply pointing out that snide retorts such as the above quoted certainly don't elevate or maintain the discussion. I'm not being confrontational when posting this, I'm simply pointing out that even if you don't intend to be degrading...the nature of online conversations tend to amplify such remarks.

Yeah, that's Deadshane for ya though. He can put down whomever he pleases but when someone does it back it's instantly a personal attack and uncalled for.

Oddly enough insults through edits are one of the things that the MODs don't seem to have a problem with.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Bunker wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

I think everyone with intelligence here knows what sort of RTT I'm talking about.

I don't. Would you mind filling in people such as myself who don't follow you?

There we go, fixed it for the smart apples.

I honestly think most of the aggressive posts here were perpetrated by the Tourney haterz....sort of in a "I told you so" context. Anything otherwise is the rest of us just trying to hold discussion. Maybe with a few snyde but well deserved mild retorts.

I'm simply pointing out that snide retorts such as the above quoted certainly don't elevate or maintain the discussion. I'm not being confrontational when posting this, I'm simply pointing out that even if you don't intend to be degrading...the nature of online conversations tend to amplify such remarks.

Read a couple of posts before hand...I didnt escalate anything at all. I certainly didnt defuse anything, but I didnt fire the first shot either.

....and Bunker, I KNOW you've been WAY more caustic than I ever have in the past.

Deadshane1 wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Bunker wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

I think everyone with intelligence here knows what sort of RTT I'm talking about.

I don't. Would you mind filling in people such as myself who don't follow you?

There we go, fixed it for the smart apples.

I honestly think most of the aggressive posts here were perpetrated by the Tourney haterz....sort of in a "I told you so" context. Anything otherwise is the rest of us just trying to hold discussion. Maybe with a few snyde but well deserved mild retorts.

I'm simply pointing out that snide retorts such as the above quoted certainly don't elevate or maintain the discussion. I'm not being confrontational when posting this, I'm simply pointing out that even if you don't intend to be degrading...the nature of online conversations tend to amplify such remarks.

Read a couple of posts before hand...I didnt escalate anything at all. I certainly didnt defuse anything, but I didnt fire the first shot either.

So it's okay for you to insult someone who wasn't even in the conversation when the perceived "escalation" happened?

Makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:

....and Bunker, I KNOW you've been WAY more caustic than I ever have in the past.

Lol.

Just lol.

I know I'm not a tourney goer, but I have nothing against them. my roomie is a competition player as are many friends of mine, and this affects him.

Honestly, I think GW needs to do a tournament expansion. They could release it same as any other, with a book and support. This could have all the framework necessary to run tourneys, along with ancillary products to help the release. This doesn't seem to fit their current business model though.

All that being said, I was only addressing your comment that the state of the US tournament scene was both important to casual gamers and GW. This comment seemed to need the input from a casual gamer, like myself. I apologize if I seemed to be attacking anyone, but I'm really just trying to join the thread as it applies to me.

GW are still running tournaments over here and in the UK, so I bet they'll start the US scene again once their HQ is organised. If not, it sounds like ye have some decent indies to attend over there.

pox wrote:
Honestly, I think GW needs to do a tournament expansion. They could release it same as any other, with a book and support. This could have all the framework necessary to run tourneys, along with ancillary products to help the release.

That would be effin genius though. I think, given the internet and the international community that now exists, that GW organising regional, national and even international finals and having a fully inclusive world championship title would be a great PR move and raise recognition for the product, media interest etc.

An expansion would be a great way to do this, nice thinking. GW gets to sell something else and tourneys would be granted more recognition.

Due to a number of complaints received, I am locking this thread to allow moderators to check it in detail.

pox wrote:Honestly, I think GW needs to do a tournament expansion.

They already have one. It's called 'Mein Kampf'. Have you heard of it?

Fething tournament gamers. *spits*

This message brought to you by the Dakka Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia - 'Our Way is the Only Way'

On a seperate note, are there even really enough missions to run a tournament effectively?

I would venture to say that there needs to be at least 4 more missions put out in order to have the variety needed to run a tournament successfully.

I think this is why a lot of tournaments nowadays run their own missions. Not only does it make the experience more varied and interesting for the players, but it makes sure that the players bring armies that are able to cope with more than just the missions in the BRB

I seem to recall reading somewhere that in the near future GW would be printing more missions in a series of White Dwarf articles. This might me a good jump-start for those thinking about holding their own tournaments. It couldn't hurt, right?

Aren't there more missions in the main rulebook? (The stupidly overpriced one I won't buy, not the AOBR one)

I think the game is mostly in a better state for tournaments than it has been for a while.
Would love FAQs that actually dealt with real issues (deffrolla, I'm looking at you), but that's up there with price cuts and GW admitting they were wrong ever.

The UK tournement scene has been mentioned a few times in the thread.

The tickets for the UKGT went on sale a couple of weeks ago and all 450 tickets sold out in about 3-4 days. Heat two (the one I wanted to go to) sold out in about two days. Thankfully my budies and I squeezed into the final few spots of heat three.

The demand is certainly there on this side of the pond. It would take an idiot not to make big bucks from a sellout gig like that.

As a reasonably competitive player, I just meandered on over to the wrecking crew forums through deadshanes sig, thinking to espy a new trick or two, and see what all the fuss is about. This is the first thread I saw.

http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-607-2413-0-just-smashed-bunch-idiots-over-dakka.htm

Lovely group of people. Here was me thinking shane was the oppressed underdog, and it turns out he rules dakka! Fancy that.

Yargh! Thread contents aside, that yellow scheme, it burns! My poor retinas!

The Wrecking Crew are mythic heroes, the last true competative gamers left in a sea of mewling scum and dull witted casual gamers. If they fall, civilization's light will be extinguished, and all that will be left will be an eternity in gibbering darkness.

In Ireland, it's not uncommon for people to travel around to various cons. Although we're a tiny nation, hotel costs are at least comparable. Indie cons are as good as the crowd that attends them.

This thread hasn't been re-opened for too long and we're already back to where we were when it got locked in the first place?

It doesn't bode well...

I apologise. If you'd like I can edit my previous post to take out the irrelevant stuff.

If we can all stay on topic...

And, just keep in mind:

Alpharius wrote:And, just keep in mind:

Keep what in mind? You have a serious eye infection? What?

Ketara wrote:As a reasonably competitive player, I just meandered on over to the wrecking crew forums through deadshanes sig, thinking to espy a new trick or two, and see what all the fuss is about. This is the first thread I saw.

http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-607-2413-0-just-smashed-bunch-idiots-over-dakka.htm

Lovely group of people. Here was me thinking shane was the oppressed underdog, and it turns out he rules dakka! Fancy that.

Sums it up nicely, IMO.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Alpharius wrote:And, just keep in mind:

Keep what in mind? You have a serious eye infection? What?

One does not simply post on Dakka! It is guarded by Mods who do not sleep. Not with a thousand posters could this be done.

GW has been known to create new missions for their GTs. Typically they are playtested by veteran circuit players.

G

I say to each his own when it comes for motivation for engaging into the hobby of 40k. But for those who like to impose their views on 40k: please dont, there is plenty of room to allow the casual gamer and the tournament gamer crowd to play in this game. Besides if there were no more GTs period, I think the tournament players would have to play on the casual game nights.

btw is it too much to ask for a comprehensive list of FAQs?

Ketard wrote:As a reasonably competitive player, I just meandered on over to the wrecking crew forums through deadshanes sig, thinking to espy a new trick or two, and see what all the fuss is about. This is the first thread I saw.

http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-607-2413-0-just-smashed-bunch-idiots-over-dakka.htm

Lovely group of people. Here was me thinking shane was the oppressed underdog, and it turns out he rules dakka! Fancy that.

I am interested to learn if you did indeed espy a new trick or two. Shane was just blowing some hot air rather than venting here. Seems reasonable enough to me. We can always use more traffic our way.

G

I submit a (hopefully) true question. If the GT's are not at a loss - WHY would GW NOT want to support them. Why not have a gaming system that supports both tournaments and the casual gamer. They seem to have a market for both.

Kilkrazy wrote:

More important then the tournament scene....who is this?

KeithGatchalian wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

More important then the tournament scene....who is this?

that's Deadshane!

BTW - that's a joke - I like Shane....

Weren't RTs and GTs slowly fading as a result of the Outrider program going?

Ketara wrote:As a reasonably competitive player, I just meandered on over to the wrecking crew forums through deadshanes sig, thinking to espy a new trick or two, and see what all the fuss is about. This is the first thread I saw.

http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-607-2413-0-just-smashed-bunch-idiots-over-dakka.htm

Lovely group of people. Here was me thinking shane was the oppressed underdog, and it turns out he rules dakka! Fancy that.

And they wonder why their club has such a bad reputation...

GW yanking tournament organising in Oz hasn't had a noticeable effect on our tourney scene.

We still manage good turnouts at our majors and regional events (bearing in mind our population densities are quite low in certain areas so the number of gamers is also quite low).

They were never cost-effective for GW here.

what happens when you become sooo good, win tournaments, beat everyone in the circuit there is to beat? become hated all over for being the best? there is causaul gaming making everything fun again. No one needs tournies to have fun one needs to try every aspect of the hobby to completely enjoy and understand the hobby. Playing is just one part.. what about master converters, painters, scenic designers, try doing some of that and you will forget about tournaments. Most tourny heavy goers have armies that could use alot of work aswelll lol

Champion_0f_Chaos wrote:one needs to try every aspect of the hobby to completely enjoy and understand the hobby.

Firstly, having read a few of your posts now, I have to say it:

Punctuation, sentence structure and spelling. Jesus...

Secondly, your statements are ironic, as you state that everyone should be trying everything, yet seem to attack Tournament Gamers at the same time. I agree that there are many aspects to the hobby, but certain people only derive enjoyment from a few of them. For instance, I derive no enjoyment from painting, but I love building terrain. Should I be yelled at for not liking painting? Or is the 'hate' only reserved for those horrible evil child-eating tournament players?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

pox wrote:Honestly, I think GW needs to do a tournament expansion.

They already have one. It's called 'Mein Kampf'. Have you heard of it?

Fething tournament gamers. *spits*

This message brought to you by the Dakka Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia - 'Our Way is the Only Way'

dude ... kudos for slipping in the Hitler reference thus keeping internet traditions alive :-D

Where would this place be without me? ... well... probably exactly where it is now, but that's not the point!!!

Danny Internets wrote:

Ketara wrote:As a reasonably competitive player, I just meandered on over to the wrecking crew forums through deadshanes sig, thinking to espy a new trick or two, and see what all the fuss is about. This is the first thread I saw.

http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-607-2413-0-just-smashed-bunch-idiots-over-dakka.htm

Lovely group of people. Here was me thinking shane was the oppressed underdog, and it turns out he rules dakka! Fancy that.

And they wonder why their club has such a bad reputation...

QFT

Just flipped into it. Yes, and they wonder why they have a bad reputation - I see several of them then also popped into this thread to offer support. Funny guys. I feel beat down!!

I think we ought to ban these types of threads. No-one seems to agree and I think to be honest the casual fluff players seem to be the least accomodating. We all have our own way of playing but what the heck is so difficult about respect each others way of playing and making simple accomodations when we interact. Is it so hard to shift your way of looking at a 40k for just one game. God, even Jervis says try a tournie for fun. Not all tournie players and power list players are dicks - 99% of them are quite reasonable but just play hard but expect the same from their opponent. So speaketh a casual gamer/ painter.

edit for crap spelling, grammar and additional thought

One is a regular dakka douche and another is a stelek lover

...so which one am I then, the douche or the Stelek lover? Since I'm the one that posted the first WC "hate" post in the thread and I read Stelek's blog on occasion (but I'm not a "lover" by any means), I'm a little confused.

I've probably already said this once, but I personally don't have anything at all against competitive gaming. I used to in the early days, but I like to think I've opened my mind a bit after being in the hobby for a while and I'm nowhere near as hostile as I used to be (competitive /= WAAC). I've been on Deadshane's side the whole time, I may have never played in a tournament before but I'm not stupid, I realize tournaments are a good thing for the hobby and I really don't want them to go away, either.

Also, I don't believe I've ever actually eaten a McRib. I don't know why but they just never looked all that tasty.

The demand is certainly there on this side of the pond. It would take an idiot not to make big bucks from a sellout gig like that.

Which is pretty interesting to know, since the UK in general is said to be the more "casual" bunch while us Americans are the more competitive ones.

btw is it too much to ask for a comprehensive list of FAQs?

Hell fething no it isn't. If nothing else I really wish GW would write better FAQs...

Makes sense in it being huge in the UK. Think of all of the gamers in america, then double it, and squeeze them into an area the size of Texas (generalization admittedly). Then see how fast you could sell out a tournament when very few people would have to fly. Imagine the only additional costs being hotel and beer. That would cut my expenses in half.

A big part of the reason that US GT's are harder to run by GW is the sheer distances involved. Just shipping all that terrain across the country isn't cheap. They also generally use very nice venues which isn't cheap either. I hope they at least keep a championship style event that you qualify for but at this point that is all I'm holding out for......Prove me wrong GW!

Deadshane1 wrote:
If it wasnt for national tournements....I would've been gone a long time ago, along with several people I know.

Maybe GW is holding out hope...

The bulk of tournaments, even mid level tournaments, aren't made up of hard core WAAC uber gamers, they're made up of regular gamers like myself that enjoy having a few games and playing with a tooled up army against other tooled up armies played by skilled opponents. The more tournaments there are, the more I get to play. The fewer tournaments there are, the less 40k I get to play.

That's what's forgotten here. Yes, many of us would like to see some sort of karmic punishment laid down on those we don't like, but let's not forget that the jerks aren't the only ones hurt (and that's not even addressing who is really a jerk here, because frankly most posters in this thread look like pretty bad).

Ketara wrote:As a reasonably competitive player, I just meandered on over to the wrecking crew forums through deadshanes sig, thinking to espy a new trick or two, and see what all the fuss is about. This is the first thread I saw.

http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-607-2413-0-just-smashed-bunch-idiots-over-dakka.htm

Lovely group of people. Here was me thinking shane was the oppressed underdog, and it turns out he rules dakka! Fancy that.

Not a smart move. Now GBF is angry with you.

I'd love to see some larger tournaments, but there have been a lot of RTT's going on around here recently. Course, I suppose if you're too good to sully yourself by gracing a RTT with your presence...

He's a fly, what's the worst he could do?

I'll get you and your lil dawg if you don't get back on topic.

G

This thread is closed, for the good of the nation. Its sad as there are some good posts, cluttered by lots of epic nonsense.