Why do "Casual Gamers" enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments"

...and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

Don't you know that the thread isnt for you in the first place? I don't recall ever feeling a need to enter threads entitled "How to build the fluffiest Ultramarine army ever!" (in fact I never go into them) and rail on about how your army lacks focus and will never win a 'Best General' award.

It's just confusing to me.

Deadshane1 wrote:Why do "Casual Gamers" enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments"

...and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

Don't you know that the thread isnt for you in the first place? I don't recall ever feeling a need to enter threads entitled "How to build the fluffiest Ultramarine army ever!" and rail on about how your army lacks focus and will never win a 'Best General' award.

It's just confusing to me.

Don't know. As a casual gamer myself I think threads like that are stupid. Different lists are for different environments and no-one environment is better than someone elses. If you are going to take on a tournie player in his/ her type of environment, even for a friendly, you should take your hardest list as a matter of respect and give the best game you can. V'v tournie player should be willing to adapt when asked for a casual scenerio based game.

Have a hard list doesn't make you a dick. Whining about why you lost when your underpowered fluff list got walloped by said power list makes you a dick. To paraphrase Sean Connery "don't bring a knife to a gun fight". People should be aware of the environment they are going to be gaming in (and that includes opponent) and plan accordingly.

Does this actually happen or is this just a lovely example of tilting at imaginary windmills.

Casual gamers usually play people testing out their 'tournament lists' and it sucks to get stomped into the ground when you just wanted to play.

Like this guy I know...lets call him Shane. He got obliterated by this cheese monger Geoff's lascannon of doom army once. I'm sure he didn't have any fun.

Bat Manuel wrote:Casual gamers usually play people testing out their 'tournament lists' and it sucks to get stomped into the ground when you just wanted to play.

Like this guy I know...lets call him Shane. He got obliterated by this cheese monger Geoff's lascannon of doom army once. I'm sure he didn't have any fun.

Neither player during that game was a casual gamer...has nothing to do with the subject here.

Oh noes, sometimes people disagree!

Wow, this seems to be another bait shane thread. Second one I've read in a row here.....
And people say the Dakka community is unfriendly!

Ketara wrote:Wow, this seems to be another bait shane thread. Second one I've read in a row here.....
And people say the Dakka community is unfriendly!

Friendliest place on earth!

So, question back. You hardcore tourny guys, why do you bring your over-powered I win lists to friendly games and ruin it for all us casual folks?

I'm a casual player, but I try to play competetivly(to an extent where I'm still having fun with my actual army, obviously), and I have no problem with 'cheesy' lists. Nothing wrong with trying to actually win the game.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Bat Manuel wrote:Casual gamers usually play people testing out their 'tournament lists' and it sucks to get stomped into the ground when you just wanted to play.

Like this guy I know...lets call him Shane. He got obliterated by this cheese monger Geoff's lascannon of doom army once. I'm sure he didn't have any fun.

Neither player during that game was a casual gamer...has nothing to do with the subject here.

I would hardly call Geoff a tournament player

And my point was the first sentence, the second was just so you'd see the same point of view

As a casual gamer I never do enter those threads. Crazy ideas like there being 'optimal lists' scare me. I just like the blue evil spase mairnes.... theyre blue.

djones520 wrote:
So, question back. You hardcore tourny guys, why do you bring your over-powered I win lists to friendly games and ruin it for all us casual folks?

If the casual folk's game is 'ruined' by playing against a more powerful list, the fault lies in the casual folks.

I don't mind playing when I'm over-matched. My fun isn't attached to winning.

The idea is, if you want to win, play to win. If you just want to throw whatever random junk on the table, or play super fluffy, don't get mad when you lose. Complaining about self imposed restrictions is what makes you a scrub.

Fafnir wrote:The idea is, if you want to win, play to win. If you just want to throw whatever random junk on the table, or play super fluffy, don't get mad when you lose. Complaining about self imposed restrictions is what makes you a scrub.

Eccept that at a given store you know who the fluffy or newer players are. When people ask me for a game I find out if they want a casual game or a no holds barred bring your 'Ard tourney list game. Win or lose I find games that are "close" to be more fun. So I try to match the "power level" of my opponent's list.

I got to see a game last night when a waac player sat there when 3 veteran players came in the store, but when a newer guy showed up he pounced on him for a game. Then he got tabled after his 500+ pt vet assault squad bounced off a terminator assault squad without inflicting a wound.

edit- the new guy won (not sure if it was clear)

^^That'll learn him.

It pretty simple.. They have been brow beaten by the csual gamer mafia and are pissed off others havent..

I actually field gak lists cause Im cheap and dont want to mech up my armies.

But also its good not to hear the others complain.

I'm a casual player but I do read those threads as I can imagine and see how destructive the lists can be but can also see potential flaws in them and if you can add something to the conversation that could help I think you should.

I am going to try and make a tourney list though as our club is going to enter the school tourney. So these threads can help.

I'm a casual gamer. I don't think I've played a regular game of 40k in over two years, there's always some custom rules/scenarios/campaign/apocalypse/planetstrike thing going on in my games.

It took a while for me to realize I had become a casual gamer, and when I did I stopped posting in any rules or optimal list discussions.

When I'm talking about modeling or playing a game, it does throw me a bit when someone makes suggestions to sharpen up my list, but it certainly doesn't upset me. I just tell them I brought X instead of Y because X looked cooler in the army.

At the same time, I don't play in tournaments and I try to avoid players that are getting ready for tournaments, or whose sole enjoyment of the hobby is kickin' ass.

As they say, "eggs have no business dancing with rocks." It never ends well.

Deadshane1 wrote:Why do "Casual Gamers" enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments"

...and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

Probably the same reason "non-casual" gamers can't seem to not butt into a thread that has nothing to do with building an uber army/winning and spouting off some form of competitive based analysis of what ever is being discussed...

Deadshane1 wrote:Why do "Casual Gamers" enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments" and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

Because casual gamers are the apex of humanity, and you 'tournament gamers' *spits* need to be reminded of that every now and again lest you try to rise above your station.

This post brought to you by the Dakka Casual Gamer Mafia - 'Out Way is the Only Way'

CT GAMER wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Why do "Casual Gamers" enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments"

...and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

Probably the same reason "non-casual" gamers can't seem to not butt into a thread that has nothing to do with building an uber army/winning and spouting off some form of competitive based analysis of what ever is being discussed...

there is a difference here. The competitive gamers are usually trying to be helpful, but are just clueless. The casual gamers are often pretty hostile.

What if you're a casual tournament gamer?

Such things DO exist (well, they do hereabouts) in tandem with the other types.

I take an army of models I like, do moderately well (top half of the field) and am not overly concerned with the lack of a podium finish on Generalismistics (but am quite happy to pick up the painting or other soft scores prize).

I am quite capable of building and using the hardest army (I do have most, if not all of the 'hard' SM units in my collection) - but I regard tabling an opponent in the shortest time available as less than fun (a win handed to you is not as sweet as one hard fought).

Polonius wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Why do "Casual Gamers" enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments"

...and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

Probably the same reason "non-casual" gamers can't seem to not butt into a thread that has nothing to do with building an uber army/winning and spouting off some form of competitive based analysis of what ever is being discussed...

there is a difference here. The competitive gamers are usually trying to be helpful, but are just clueless. The casual gamers are often pretty hostile.

Both subsets have a percentage of individuals that like to hear themselves talk and assume the other subset is doing things "wrong".

Unfortunately on a public forum They find plenty of places to test this assumption...

Some Jerk Lists Would include, Nob bikers list, guard Air Cav, Stern guard drop pod, jet bike seer council, stuff like that are generally not fun to play against

Take one of the lists against the others, then it is fun to play against.

Champion_0f_Chaos wrote:Jerk Lists

So those compeltely 100% legal armies you just listed are 'Jerk Lists' are they?

Nice that you would colour everyone with the same brush.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Champion_0f_Chaos wrote:Jerk Lists

So those compeltely 100% legal armies you just listed are 'Jerk Lists' are they?

Nice that you would colour everyone with the same brush.

Not being a massive 40k player i.e casual player, are these so called Jerk lists unbeatable? It seems like there are about 5 or 6 lists people whine about. Are they that unbeatable?

fullheadofhair wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Champion_0f_Chaos wrote:Jerk Lists

So those compeltely 100% legal armies you just listed are 'Jerk Lists' are they?

Nice that you would colour everyone with the same brush.

Not being a massive 40k player i.e casual player, are these so called Jerk lists unbeatable? It seems like there are about 5 or 6 lists people whine about. Are they that unbeatable?

They aren't unbeatable. But you can put a give a 12 year old whose been playing two months that list, and an experienced game with a balanced "fluffy" list would find himself fighting for his life against it.

I consider myself a casual gamer. I honestly don't mind seeing those lists in a tournament scene. Thats what tournies are for, winning. But it does irritate the hell outta me when people bring that to the FLGS weekly fun night.

They're just powerful, and the end result from a games design process that is designed to sell models and not create a balanced rulset.

Stupid to blame players for finding them.

I am definitely a casual gamer, but I almost always side with the "jerk list" guys on here. Points are points, and if some models are cheaper than others, well that gw's fault. In a perfect world my 2k fluffy mish-mash army should at least stand a chance against your 2k power build tourney army. And even with all of the broken codex's out there, I think it still has alot to do with your generalship. A creative general should still be able to pull out a win when up against a power build army.
A mite off topic, but my two cents.

OT though, I think the internet is a giant soap box for idiots and drunks(me) to jump up and start sh*tting everywhere, just because we can.

Look, if you have a guy that will only play his Vulkan TH/SS horde at casual night, he's just a jerk. Likewise, when you step into a thread discussing Vulkan hordes, and chastise everybody for playing cheesy lists, you're also a jerk. You might be comforted in knowing that somewhere out there, a jerk that has something in common with the people you're talking to was mean to you, so you're asshattery is completely justified, but you're still a jerk.

A big part of being a good human being is letting stuff go, and not retaliating against the person that hurt you. To retaliate, not against that person, but against total strangers, isn't just mean, it's kind of pathetic.

Look, if you have a guy that will only play his Vulkan TH/SS horde at casual night, he's just a jerk.

What if that's his only army?

I'm just saying, the GW hobby is pretty fething expensive, not everyone has multiple armies to choose from. Or even enough models to do a competitive or casual list with.

Sidstyler wrote:

Look, if you have a guy that will only play his Vulkan TH/SS horde at casual night, he's just a jerk.

What if that's his only army?

I'm just saying, the GW hobby is pretty fething expensive, not everyone has multiple armies to choose from. Or even enough models to do a competitive or casual list with.

Find me a guy who literally does not own a GW model other than the components for hardcore tournament armies.

You raise a good point. It's possible that a tournament list may be the only things the guy has painted, or the only army he feels comfy with. It could also be the only army he brought. Still, I think if you're an experienced tournament player, you should know that you have a huge advantage built in over chumps at casual play night. If nothing else, you spot the other guy some points, or handicap yourself somehow.

Crappy units are pretty cheap on ebay, and any SM player can get a tac squad and a dread for cheap from AoBR.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Neither player during that game was a casual gamer...has nothing to do with the subject here.

Then my question for you is,

If a casual player decided to enter tournament just for fun , does that all of a sudden automatically make them
NONE casual?

LunaHound wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:
Neither player during that game was a casual gamer...has nothing to do with the subject here.

Then my question for you is,

If a casual player decided to enter tournament just for fun , does that all of a sudden automatically make them
NONE casual?

I think that a casual player that enters a tournament for fun can have fun, as long as they accept the fact that they might lose some games. If you go in with the mindset that you'll play three games, get to see some interesting looking armies, and get to play for at least a small stakes, than yeah, they can come and still be a casual gamer.

Most tournaments are smaller affairs anyway: 4-12 people playing at a store, and while the handful of big fish will battle it out for the top, there's plenty of room for fun lists in the middle and bottom.

Polonius wrote:Crappy units are pretty cheap on ebay, and any SM player can get a tac squad and a dread for cheap from AoBR.

If I want to make my army crappier I'll just take more fire warriors and devilfish, lol...you can't make me waste money on crap units like Vespid or Krootox.

I might take Vespid if you were giving them to me, but I won't pay for them.

Sidstyler wrote:

Polonius wrote:Crappy units are pretty cheap on ebay, and any SM player can get a tac squad and a dread for cheap from AoBR.

If I want to make my army crappier I'll just take more fire warriors and devilfish, lol...you can't make me waste money on crap units like Vespid or Krootox.

I might take Vespid if you were giving them to me, but I won't pay for them.

Well, that's my point. Anybody that's been gaming for any length of time has some extra stuff they can add to an army, or switch out some wargear options, etc. to water it down.

I am surprised lash spam did not make the 10 most hated armies list.

G

I used to think I was a casual gamer but apparently I'm a tournament player according to my GW manager. I never play cookie cutter lists, I enjoy painting and won't field anything unpainted, and I'll go with the flow for most things. That being said I want to play by the rules, so no you can't have an Ironclad Death Company Venerable Dread (what the argument was about) and I'll let your floaty tape measure go so far before I say something, and this apparently make me a tournament player.

fullheadofhair wrote:

Don't know. As a casual gamer myself I think threads like that are stupid. Different lists are for different environments and no-one environment is better than someone elses. If you are going to take on a tournie player in his/ her type of environment, even for a friendly, you should take your hardest list as a matter of respect and give the best game you can. V'v tournie player should be willing to adapt when asked for a casual scenerio based game.

Have a hard list doesn't make you a dick. Whining about why you lost when your underpowered fluff list got walloped by said power list makes you a dick. To paraphrase Sean Connery "don't bring a knife to a gun fight". People should be aware of the environment they are going to be gaming in (and that includes opponent) and plan accordingly.

This may well be the best statement of things I've ever read on Dakka! Excellent point!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Instead of a whine fest like a bunch of little girly men about this topic - are we instead missing the true point.

We have a game system and rules that can support BOTH aspects of the hobby. Hardcore tournament and the Epic Narrative campaign fluffy to the max games. If only the energy expended debated which is the right way to play the game could be put into making both aspects better.

Ultimately - it comes down to the event organizers. You can have tournaments that reward the soft scores and balance things that way. Or you can have more 'ard boyz tournaments. I personally think that BOTH are the way to go. I guess I'm an on the fence person - I enjoy the hardcore no holds barred tournaments and also enjoy building armies for the story and pageantry of the list - the fluff. Sometimes I enjoy one - sometimes I enjoy the other. The only time I get irritated is when I don't know which one is which ahead of time - either bringing a knife to a gunfight or a nuke to a snowball fight. Variety is the spice of life - and we all enjoy a hobby that can appeal to both gaming types - as well as to the painter/converter extraordinaire.

Ain't that a good thing?

djones520 wrote:
I consider myself a casual gamer. I honestly don't mind seeing those lists in a tournament scene. Thats what tournies are for, winning. But it does irritate the hell outta me when people bring that to the FLGS weekly fun night.

See, this is something I have an issue with. We all say we'd like to see fun fluffy stuff on league night, but everyone has a different definition of what is fun, fluffy, and competetive, and usually what people mean when they say "fun and fluffy" is that they want their opponent to let them win.

I don't understand why anyone posts an army list other than to make it stronger.

If you're playing for fun, or whatnot, pick the models you like, or the theme you want, and go with it.

Posting army lists is asking to be told what units are suboptimal and should be replaced with bloodcrushers. And it's cool to say 'help me make my army better, but I want to keep some theme' - but even then, you're asking people to make your list better, within that established set of restricitions.

Unlike most people, I won't comment since the OP was to the "Casual Gamer"................

Oh never mind, I can't resist!

It's like when my slow playing thread, there were several people posting giving advice/critisizing even though they admitted to not being tourney players. It's human(internet) nature to spout off your opinion. The internet makes it much easier to do so.

By the way, altough I do love tournies, I also play casual, so I think I qualify to participate in this thread.

GG

I think the more neutral and inoffensive way to phrase it is that when posting a thread in Army Lists, You Make Da Call, or Tactics, it's very useful to give context. To explain where/when/in what environment you intend to use the army/information.

And it behooves respondents to pay attention to the initial post, and respond (or don't respond, if they're not interested in the type of play) appropriately for the context/situation the OP describes.

Champion_0f_Chaos wrote:Some Jerk Lists Would include, Nob bikers list, guard Air Cav, Stern guard drop pod, jet bike seer council, stuff like that are generally not fun to play against

Wow. That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with, there.

First off, you're calling people jerks for liking to play hard armies. That's seriously bad form.
Second, you're trying to make your OPINION onto fact... another failure.

I happen to think that the armies you listed as "generally not fun to play against" are some of the BEST to play against. I WANT my opponent to bring the biggest, baddest, toughest army he can field so we can see who stomps the muck out of who.

By the way... although I do enjoy a win, I do NOT mind losing. I am a casual gamer.


Eric

One thing I see casual gamers doing, in our gaming group at least, is that there will always be a few competitive players. People who like tournament play and will make top notch lists to win. That is their goal: winning. After awhile the casual players, while winning isn't their main goal, will get tired of losing and want to win. It is simply human nature to want to win.

So then the casual gamers will build up their lists. They will search online for tactics, lists, and the like to help them win. Eventually when they are able to give the competitive gamer a good fight, drawing or possibly even winning against him, then the competitive player will change their list and tactics. Then the cycle starts over and over with each side changing their tactics and lists to beat the other player, be them casual or not. Eventually both sides turn into competitive gamers and then there are no more casual gamers.

I would know since I am guilty of the above as a former casual gamer.

I would say having a utopia of all casual gamers with no worries of winning or losing and every plays nice is about as likely to succeed as the 'utopian' idea of communism was. Good idea in concept, but there will always be those who will want to rise above the rest thus unbalancing the power.

whitedragon wrote:

djones520 wrote:
I consider myself a casual gamer. I honestly don't mind seeing those lists in a tournament scene. Thats what tournies are for, winning. But it does irritate the hell outta me when people bring that to the FLGS weekly fun night.

See, this is something I have an issue with. We all say we'd like to see fun fluffy stuff on league night, but everyone has a different definition of what is fun, fluffy, and competetive, and usually what people mean when they say "fun and fluffy" is that they want their opponent to let them win.

There is fluff and there is the game. Each is a separate entity.

The concept of a "fluffy" army is meaningless since GW has taken great pains in recent years to destroy/contradict there own established fluff on a regular basis.

If one wants proof look no further then the current chaos codex...

IF the list is legal and you enjoy it then play it. IF GW can't sort out there own feth when it comes to game balance or codex design then so be it...

Deadshane1 wrote:Why do "Casual Gamers" enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments"

...and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

Don't you know that the thread isnt for you in the first place? I don't recall ever feeling a need to enter threads entitled "How to build the fluffiest Ultramarine army ever!" (in fact I never go into them) and rail on about how your army lacks focus and will never win a 'Best General' award.

It's just confusing to me.

Welcome to internet forums.

No one is obligated to play anyone else, nor is anyone obligated to say or not say anything. Just deal with the consequences of your own choices and don't bitch about what's obviously going to happen.

My main problem comes when you can't get a proper casual game in, because the other gamers are only seeking 'practice' games, whether my list is geared for a Tournament or not.

This impacts on my preferred enjoyment, and that is when I draw my line.

I myself am a casual tourney player and havent done bad as of late. The only time i comment on a tourney list is if 1 it is the army i play and 2 they have a good list or 3 they have completely messed up their list and i am usually not thd first to tell them so. There have only been a handful of times that i have ever commented on a different army than my own and that is because i have played enough orks to last a lifetime!

I gotta say, the relative hardness of a list makes relatively little difference to how enjoyable a game is.
Case in point: I went to a tournament over the weekend and took my little mech Witch Hunters list. Not exactly a hard core army, but it is fun. (Still has yet to win me best appearance though.)
First game was against Seer Council/5 Bright Lance Wave Serpent eldar. Dawn of War, Kill Point. I had never fought eldar before (and guess who didn't bring a psychic hood because "No one EVER plays psykers around here!") I got my face STOMPED! Oh my god, did I get stomped.
Second game was against a Tau list with lots of kroot and stealth suits. Kind of a nifty little list that was pretty different from what I was used to. It was a close game, coming down to a draw on objectives turn 7.

Which game did I enjoy most? The first one by a mile. Sure, I got curb stomped, but the other player was a really nice guy who walked me through his army and what had what, answered questions and brought up potential rules confusion before it became a problem. Granted, I had known him from around the store, but he was a good opponant and I learned a few things.
The second guy was not nearly so fun, with a tapemeasure that was... less than accurate, and a poor grasp of the rules when they didn't benefit him. He was kind of pissy and just in general was not that fun to play against.

My point? So glad you asked... It isn't the "super broken OMGWTFBBQ!" lists that are the problem. If you are a casual player, by definition you shouldn't care whether you win or lose beyond the fact that it is the general goal of both sides in the game. What makes or breaks games (in my opinion at least) is how good of a sport your opponant is. It is no more fun to kick in the teeth of a whiney bitch than it is to lose to a cheater, but the opposite is quite true. Win or lose, nice, fun people are nice and fun to play against.

Because they can.

That doesn't make sence.

That's almost like those slow's that go onto youtube and look up random metal band's and diss them to make the other's pissed.

Might be a mild form of Troll.

I personally only get serious during tourny's cause I paid to get in.

And let's face it in a Tourny setting it's live to win but people should remember the casual game's should be fun not hardcore.

Shadowbrand wrote:That's almost like those slow's that go onto youtube and look up random metal band's and diss them to make the other's pissed.

...

And let's face it in a Tourny setting it's live to win but people should remember the casual game's should be fun not hardcore.

You use an offensive term to describe the mentally handicapped, yet you misuse apostrophes?

First, please refrain from using that term. There are posters who have relatives/friends who are mentally handicapped, and they take offense to it.

Second, please refrain from making such outrageously ironic comments.

Thank you.

I'm a little confused about where this thread came from. It seems like just another generic troll to get the 'casual versus tournament' debate all riled up again.

To test this hypothesis, I checked the most recent 3 pages of threads in the army list forum. I looked through every thread who's title implied that it was for competitiveness (either by asking for criticism, by mentioning tournies or competition, or by being a current 'tourney list'). Interestingly enough, there was only one post that might have come close to being what the OP describes. It was in a 2K Word Bearers army, and it was about theme, more specifically, how the player could make the Word Bearers theme come out more strongly. Nowhere was it mentioned that the list was 'cheesy' or 'unfair'. In fact, I didn't see any of this sort of behaviour in all of the threads that I looked through.

So where is this assumption that 'casual gamers' are sticking their noses into competitive threads and flaming people coming from? I can only assume that the OP was feeling frustrated with 'casual gamers' and decided to stick it to them. I'm hardly surprised that this thread has received numerous mod alerts and warnings. Perhaps this was a natural extension of the 'RaI vs. RaW' that came about in YMDC and related threads, and someone wanted to apply it to 'Casual versus Competitive'. This thread, to me, reads like a needless attempt to divide people over what can be a touchy subject.

I suppose the moral of the story is that, in general, people are doing a pretty good job of respecting the Army Lists forum. I saw no indication that the OP's claims happened at all, and I also have noticed that competitive players don't come into threads called 'friendly XX' and tell the people to take out their Autarchs and put in two Lash DPs. It isn't happening, and it's damaging to declare that is is.


Maybe all we need to do is keep on respecting each other, and things will work out fine. Especially if we remember that 'Casual versus Competitive' isn't 'Hitler versus Churchill'. This divisiveness and drawing of sides isn't helping anything. Actually, threads like this could only make the problem (which I don't think there is right now) worse, not better.

I may be mistaken, but I'm guessing this was the thread that inspired this one:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253157.page

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I was aware of the thread (I've been reading it, and it did a good job of riling me up - even without any 'stake' as it were in the conversation). It was the main motivator for my guess that deadshane was feeling frustrated with Casual Gamers. I should have addressed that in my post.

It shouldn't detract, though, from the main idea of my post - which is that attempting to draw lines through the forum community and setting people against each other is a bad plan, and can only make the forum a less pleasant place to visit.

Thinking through the consequences of making a thread is a great idea. I'm certain that, at the time, deadshane could envision that this thread wouldn't be a place for enlightened discussion, but would be a magnet for heated tempers.

Polonius wrote:I may be mistaken, but I'm guessing this was the thread that inspired this one:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253157.page

That thread should be nuked by a mod with one simple end message: "STFU and Play"

Deadshane1 wrote:Why do "Casual Gamers" enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments"

...and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

Don't you know that the thread isnt for you in the first place? I don't recall ever feeling a need to enter threads entitled "How to build the fluffiest Ultramarine army ever!" (in fact I never go into them) and rail on about how your army lacks focus and will never win a 'Best General' award.

It's just confusing to me.

just like when people whine and complain when someone uses the rules to their advantage. Too many times you see "this is such a cheese list and I would walk out on anyone who played it" speeches. Personally in 20 years Ive never seen anyone throw a fit because they were playing a hard army or a smart opponent who knows the rules. Do you see professional athletes playing a sport and not knowing the rules? Of course not, the whole point to having rules is so you can use them. These same people enter threads just to bemoan anyone who dosent play like they do.I dont know anyone that plays a truly fluffy army, everyone wants to win there game. To build a army based off of fluff looks nice and is fun in certain situations, where everyone has similar lists. As far as the players getting stomped its their own fault for not knowing who they are playing and the style of the store. Of course it is polite when facing a new opponent (especially one who is new to your store/group) to find out their style/level/experience. Its just good sportsmanship to not bury someone whos only been playing for a week or 2, on the same note if you ask that same player if they want to face a hard/med/ or soft list and they reply "you dont have to hold my hand" then they have no room to complain when they get tabled on turn 3.

Orkestra wrote:
It shouldn't detract, though, from the main idea of my post - which is that attempting to draw lines through the forum community and setting people against each other is a bad plan, and can only make the forum a less pleasant place to visit.

I'm not sure the OP was trying to draw lines so much as point out the lines that are there, and how they're exploited by some posters that are, for lack of a better word, simply trolls. Posting to add nothing to a conversation while heaping moral superiority on those in the thread isn't in any way productive, and shouldn't be done. As a tournament player that has to hear the stuff from casual gamers, that was his target, but I think we're all a little tired of that behavior in any thread.

Thinking through the consequences of making a thread is a great idea. I'm certain that, at the time, deadshane could envision that this thread wouldn't be a place for enlightened discussion, but would be a magnet for heated tempers.

Sometimes pointing out the elephant in the room is good. Rather than masking his anger behind a general statement "why do people post stuff that's not remotely welcome to the discussion," he went to the heart of the matter. I think it's been good, because we're seeing why people do it: mostly as retribution for previous sins of tournament gamers.

I disagree with the sentiment that we should all get along, we should be drawing lines and dividing us into different factions. This is DakkaDakka, a forum that prides itself on the way it treats other posters. you know the old saw, "I tell it like it is, warts n' all."

Maybe the admins could come up with a "tagging" system, so when a tournament thread or discussion crops up, only those posters with a "competition" tag could post in it. At the same time, only "modelers" could post in modeling threads, only "painters" could post in the painting threads, "roleplayers" could only post in story threads, and so on. As an additional caveat, each poster can only choose one "title," as there is clearly no room for cross posts here on Dakka. This would also prevent anyone from accidentally seeing an idea that is counter to theirs.

By doing this, we could actually have rules that would keep people from posting in threads they clearly have no business in.

(Just to be sure, I'm using the logic argument of "ad absurdum," not to be confused with sarcasm. The very idea that I don't have the right to post in certain threads versus choosing not to is ridiculous.)

Labels are stupid. I'm no more a 'casual gamer' than I am a 'tournament gamer'. And I'm not a 'painter'.

This is like the whole "fan" vs "true fan" bs you get with Star Wars, Stargate, Babylon 5, Firefly and every other rabid online fandom.

It's pointless, stupid and a complete waste of time. There's too much soap-boxed moral high grounding going on, and I think threads like this that point it out for what it is are good.

That's why they put the fan in fanatic.

The whole concept behind this thread is bewildering. While it's possible to draw relationships between certain groups, labels like 'tournament gamer', 'casual gamer', 'modeller' and so forth aren't really valid descriptions of people to my mind, any more than 'chilly' or 'unhappy' are. They're temporary descriptions at best, and as unhelpful to a discussion forum as racist or otherwise unpleasant epithets.

I certainly find the aggressive nature of some posters on Dakka a bit distasteful, and this thread offers a perfect example. Were I to lump myself in with other posters, it'd probably be as a 'casual gamer'. However, I've never felt the need to

enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments" ...and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

as those type of discussions don't really interest me enough to comment, though they can be quite interesting to read.

I guess I'm laying myself bare to the accusation of getting on my own soapbox here, but so be it. In short – I don't like the aggressive and bullying turn Dakka has been taking under the assumption that 'direct and clear' equates with 'sardonic and unpleasant'. This thread highlights this unfriendly atmosphere, that has developed from the harder-edged but still inclusive feel Dakka used to have.

On a related note, I'm not really a very vocal member of the community, but I think this thread offered a good opportunity for me to point out that there's very definitely a group of lurkers or those who post seldom who find this whole tubthumping and line-drawing bewildering rather than offensive or enjoyable.

You find the same bullying on every forum.

skyth wrote:You find the same bullying on every forum.

When encountered on other forums however, it's often discouraged. Here, for good or ill, the open hostility has been cultivated by both posters, mods, and admins alike.

My previous post was an attempt to point out the silliness of dividing Warhammer players. There are so few of us in general, that to further divide a finite group is only going to cut the number of available players from the teens to the single digits. I have often played competition players, and I really do like that style of play. I've played in tournaments and had a blast, as I have had tourney players join apocalypse games and campaigns and had a blast. Interactions that occur in brick and mortar stores are very different than interactions online.

Everyone feels that what they are saying is right. face-to-face interactions require a bit more tact, so you often encounter less problems when your actually setting up a game and playing someone new. On the forums however, you don't need to be polite, you can be as snarky as you want. Because these forums are largely un-moderated (You really have to do something special to be banned or probated as far as I can tell,) the same people fight about the same topics, just changed slightly from thread to thread. I rather enjoy the wild west feel of the board, and can't resist joining the fray from time to time.

From what I've seen the Casual Gamer Mafia does plenty of bullying on other forums and it's not discouraged (In fact, at least one it's encouraged by the mods)

skyth wrote:From what I've seen the Casual Gamer Mafia does plenty of bullying on other forums and it's not discouraged (In fact, at least one it's encouraged by the mods)

that doesn't excuse anything that happens here. The dakka mods are responsible for their own house irregardless of what happens elsewhere...

I meant bullying on this forum in general, not just casual vs. tourney. The focus of Dakka is antagonistic by nature, not a lot of call for fence sitters.

You kinda do what you want and say what you want. nothing bad will happen to posters here, just the occasional thread lock. (along with the mod making fun of posters in the locked thread, usually with a "funny" meme involving a Japanese girl, for some reason.)

The mods do seem more interested in posting Japanese school girl meme pictures (where did that come from?) than actually moderating in these circumstances. Maybe they think that it is lessening tension, by making everyone laugh, but it's not moderating. Moderating is more than waggling your index finger at a group of people and going 'Naughty naughty'.

The type of bullying we get from the Casual Gaming Mafia (I'm so glad everyone likes that name! ) needs to have something done about it, but, because it's ever so 'polite', nothing will ever be done.

*transmission interrupted*

But we all know folks, that only Tournament Gamers swear. Only Tournament Gamers bully people with their power builds and their anti-Semitic rants. They're the ones filling the army lists and tactics threads with WAAC power-gaming super-builds that are designed to win games - the nerve of those racist degenerates!!!

This message brought to you by the Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia - 'Winning is for losers!'

You tournament gamers really do need to cut down on the anti-semitic rants.

H.B.M.C. wrote:But we all know folks, that only Tournament Gamers swear. Only Tournament Gamers bully people with their power builds and their anti-Semitic rants. They're the ones filling the army lists and tactics threads with WAAC power-gaming super-builds that are designed to win games - the nerve of those racist degenerates!!!

This message brought to you by the Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia - 'Winning is for losers!'

Im not a Casaul gamer nor a competitive gamer but that is some of the funniest gak, ive ever heard on the Internet.

I might just sig it.

Moderating - it ain't easy.

There is a determined effort to not have this place become draconian in nature, as far as 'our' presence goes.

Does that mean that sometimes our decisions seem odd, or not to make much sense?

Probably.

But, as has been said before, it is also up to the community as a whole to pitch in here.

So, discuss the points, and try (really!) to lay off the personal stuff.

Going back to the Op Yeah I look at the hard core lists to see what they look like but I know my place as a casual gamer. I also look at the fluffy lists the same way. Its not my decison on how you play the game. I do enjoy when I play people at my own skill level as the games are always closer. However now this is just my opinion when I play a tougher more veteran player I would like him to bring an army that is rather challenging and not easy for me to beat. I would rather play someone at a higher skill level and be stomped on then play a person at a higher skill level and have them soften up their lists to play me. The only thing I request from my opponant is to tell me how they play before hand. The only people IMHO that are jerks in this game are those who say they are bringing a casual list to the game then go and pull out there stomp you into the ground tournie list.

In the end it comes down to the quote "to each his own" you can't convince people in the end that there cheating when they aren't literally but they might only take the best items and making their list "loaded" when you tell someone to play a game of it you're saying i will play my ahrdest to beat you if the opponent isnt that good you can play a slightly weaker army if you want so it's even or maybe challenge a harder player

i am a casual player
1) i don't play that often i wish i could but i can't
2)I don't try to "load" my list i respect everyone that does. If you make the best list in the world heck ill play you, you'll prolly win in 2 turns but what the heck i tried my best. and well some of my fun is just seeing th different armies out there and meeting different people that play the hobby
3) I find it really obnoxious when you tell someone flat out," You're wrong", especially about something like this. They cant be wrong about this this is an opinion based thread are you in it to win it even though you're army won't make many friends or are you there to see some people play a game and maby paint a model or two it all comes down to preferance and what you want to do when you head to your LGS, friend's house, or whater

thanks for reading my mish mosh of junk
-deffskullz

Alpharius wrote:So, discuss the points, and try (really!) to lay off the personal stuff.

But Rule #1 seems to override that.

Agree with someone, or encourage someone in a non-polite manner - get mod-slapped.
Belittle, bully, bait and put down someone with some erudite wordsmanship - get nothing.

I'm not saying it's a double standard, I'm saying it's a lack of standards.

You can't just look at someone who's fething swearing their mother fething head off like some sort of blood fething sailor and go "Be polite" when he's expressing joy over something, but when you get a long-winded carefully worded load of nonsense personal attack from a certain member, nothing happens because, oh, well, he's being polite - and as long as you're polite at Dakka, you can get away with fething anything.

Dear sir,

It has come to my attention that, it would seem, your levels of intelligence need to be called into question. Your posts that I have quoted above seem to indicate a high level of male cow excrement, and, indeed, it would serve you well to retract such comments and mend one's less-that-intelligent ways before one finds themselves injuring themselves during simple household tasks. I don't want to imply that you are unable to ascertain the difference between your elbow and your anal sphincter, but your recent comments have really brought this into question.

I will further submit that perhaps something in your childhood might have contributed to your sudden lapse in logic, or your increased need to insult (sometimes quite harshly) those you come into contact with. In pains me dearly to see the mentally handicapped parade themselves with no shame before us when we are trying to have such a vibrant and high-brow conversation, so I beseech you good sir stop talking, lest my other learned posters be brought down to the level at which you have debased yourself already.

Again, please stop acting as if one were copulating with their own mother,

Yours Truly,
His Lordship, Commissar Calgar

Look how polite he's being there Alpha! Polite, but not very nice...

Thank you for reiterating that point H.B.M.C..

I have no problem with players who are trying to win. Problems occur when said player insults another player because that persons army does not conform to that players views. This attitude is everywhere in every game system I have played in the last 15 years. As for casual players hammering away at tourney players I have this to say.... "The door swings both ways".

Octavius but thats not just a problem in the gaming world its a major problem the world has today people trying to push their views on other cultures./religions/political views. Its just in some peoples blood. The best way I have found to counter this is by letting them get their "rant on" and spew their views so everyone can hear them and while they do this just simply walk away. Some may call this backing down but I view it as not having to put up with peoples glory quest.

Unfortunately, the argument in this thread is not a matter of casual mafia vs. tourney goers.

The argument is whether or not the casual poster even has the RIGHT to post in tournament threads.

You know, as I type this, it occurs to me that I may be the problem. Either way, I don't think this forum is for me. I'll stick to the painting sections from now on. We now return you to your regularly scheduled brawl!

True. Sorry for getting off topic but I think casual players do have a right to give positive feedback on the army. As in Helpful suggestions. Just because you are a casual player does not mean you do not know how to build a good tournament list. Same goes for the Fluff lists. I think that if you can help yeah go ahead and post if you can't then just don't say anything.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Alpharius wrote:So, discuss the points, and try (really!) to lay off the personal stuff.

But Rule #1 seems to override that.

Agree with someone, or encourage someone in a non-polite manner - get mod-slapped.
Belittle, bully, bait and put down someone with some erudite wordsmanship - get nothing.
..

I think the easiest way may be the one that I've adopted. It involves the use of the forums "ignore" function applied to anyone that belongs to a certain group that could also be referred to as "those guys".

pox wrote:
You know, as I type this, it occurs to me that I may be the problem. Either way, I don't think this forum is for me. I'll stick to the painting sections from now on. We now return you to your regularly scheduled brawl!

Brawl?

I pick MetaKnight.

Dibs on Captain Falcon.

I avoid those threads like the plague because of people like the OP. Not because of what club or group they belong to, where they come from or molest rubber chickens for fun, I just don't like that crowd one bit.

It feels like you're on the beach and some donkey-cave kicks sand into your ice cream. Why did he do that? To tell you to take that gak elsewhere.

Then you take that ice cream and plunge the pointy end into his eye socket.

It's the only way to be sure.

True, there's a reason I stick to Cornettos.

Interesting post.

In response to the OP. I think he is correct in that if you just want to post about the "cheese" factor in a list created for maximum destruction, it is wasted effort with no contributory value to what the request may have been.

Regarding tournament vs. casual gamers.... Hmmm. I guess I'd call myself casual. I like to win but I construct lists with "gimics" or things I expect to be fun. If I bring these to have a balance between wins and losses. Sometimes gimics work...other times they are wasted. I'm OK with this. The hard core tournament guy knows he's gonna chalk up the easy V most of the time.

In a "set" game. Where my opponent and I decide in advance, most know that I game casually. If he/she wants to try out tournament lists, I try to kick it up a notch by spamming stuff so they can play "hard".

If I show up to the LGS with my bag and 1500 pt army, whether a pick up game or league... it is time to expect anything. I would not complain about any list.

I also tend to think I learn more in getting wiped off the table in 3 rounds about how to "beat" a tournament list then the opposing player learns about the effectiveness of his army vs. a "soft" list. This allows me to construct better stops...etc in a tournament.

Having said all this I LOVE tournaments. I love to compete. I love to try and pull out a V regardless of my build. I enjoy tournaments that remove the "wipe" out rule. Once you remove this, it is not about how hard a list is, but if the player can effectively navigate the requirements of the scenario given their force. I've seen Land raider spam devastated by terrain and too many objectives. I've had the fortune of being able to deploy Necron warriors in full buildings with Armor 10 on all sides (essentially giving me non mobile armor). I've seen all biker ORK army lose figures (and painboyz) to difficult/dangerous terrain b/c the set of the table did not allow them to "charge" across and reap havoc without making the rolls. These "tournament" builds were at a disadvantage b/c the player showed up expecting to do something that the scenario or table didn't allow. I find it HILARIOUS when a tournament guy gets bent outta shape b/c he was beaten by "the table" or "the scenario", like these factors have absolutely nothing to do with the game we just played.

Regards,
j

Deadshane1 wrote:Why do "Casual Gamers" enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments"

...and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

Don't you know that the thread isnt for you in the first place? I don't recall ever feeling a need to enter threads entitled "How to build the fluffiest Ultramarine army ever!" (in fact I never go into them) and rail on about how your army lacks focus and will never win a 'Best General' award.

It's just confusing to me.

Maybe you should ask the individuals making those posts. They probably all have their own reasons for doing so, even if they’re just throwing in their two cents about something they see as wrong.

I suspect I’m what you would call a casual gamer because I avoid these types of threads. During the 3rd edition days, I was heavily into the tournament scene but then I found I really wasn’t having any fun. Players were just a bit too intense for something as goofy as pushing little army men around a table and making pew pew noises.

Currently, I play mostly among close friends in their homes while drinking beer or Tennessee Tea. We usually play a mixture or 4th/5th edition and commonly throw out rules we think are “lame”. I still sometimes go to local tournaments because I think it’s a great way to meet new players and possibly see unusual armys.

voidfiend wrote:I was heavily into the tournament scene but then I found I really wasn’t having any fun. Players were just a bit too intense for something as goofy as pushing little army men around a table and making pew pew noises.

Well put! Of course, being intense and creepy isn't restricted to people who play in tournaments. I'm sure the 'Fluff Nazis', 'Casual Gaming Mafia', 'Powergamers' and whatever the label is for extreme modellers/painters have their share of people I wouldn't want to have a drink with, just as I'm sure most of 'em are pretty much alright.

Currently, I play mostly among close friends in their homes while drinking beer or Tennessee Tea. We usually play a mixture or 4th/5th edition and commonly throw out rules we think are “lame”. I still sometimes go to local tournaments because I think it’s a great way to meet new players and possibly see unusual armys.

This pretty much describes how I play, too.

I like the tournament lists, I like reading about the combinations people have discovered and I love reading about the 'evolution' that goes on in tournaments, as certain lists gain popularity and the rest respond by adapting their lists to either entirely confront this or include things to protect against it (the mystics and inq for blocking daemon DS for example). The maximum bang for your buck lists and the thinking behind it make for good reading. I might incorporate some of it into my own lists.

I wouldn't show up to a mate's house with nob biker lists though since I wouldn't enjoy his discomfort and my mates usually takes a mix of troops, so I return the favour. I am still experimenting with the orks, so proxy is often employed and I incorporate some of what I've read.

Much of the misconception comes about from people reading lists here and then showing up to a game with a 'powerbuild' when the opponent was not clear this was going to happen and has instead turned up with his sum total of minis bought because he 'liked that tank best' etc. People then cry out that folks aren't playing in the spirit of the game when, if it's clear on both sides the objective is to build a winning army using everything at your disposal, then both sides are informed and in the clear.

Here's to the tourny players, enjoy your game, I'll enjoy mine and enjoy reading about yours or attending an event to watch the battles.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Alpharius wrote:So, discuss the points, and try (really!) to lay off the personal stuff.

But Rule #1 seems to override that.

Agree with someone, or encourage someone in a non-polite manner - get mod-slapped.
Belittle, bully, bait and put down someone with some erudite wordsmanship - get nothing.

I'm not saying it's a double standard, I'm saying it's a lack of standards.

You can't just look at someone who's fething swearing their mother fething head off like some sort of blood fething sailor and go "Be polite" when he's expressing joy over something, but when you get a long-winded carefully worded load of nonsense personal attack from a certain member, nothing happens because, oh, well, he's being polite - and as long as you're polite at Dakka, you can get away with fething anything.

Dear sir,

It has come to my attention that, it would seem, your levels of intelligence need to be called into question. Your posts that I have quoted above seem to indicate a high level of male cow excrement, and, indeed, it would serve you well to retract such comments and mend one's less-that-intelligent ways before one finds themselves injuring themselves during simple household tasks. I don't want to imply that you are unable to ascertain the difference between your elbow and your anal sphincter, but your recent comments have really brought this into question.

I will further submit that perhaps something in your childhood might have contributed to your sudden lapse in logic, or your increased need to insult (sometimes quite harshly) those you come into contact with. In pains me dearly to see the mentally handicapped parade themselves with no shame before us when we are trying to have such a vibrant and high-brow conversation, so I beseech you good sir stop talking, lest my other learned posters be brought down to the level at which you have debased yourself already.

Again, please stop acting as if one were copulating with their own mother,

Yours Truly,
His Lordship, Commissar Calgar

Look how polite he's being there Alpha! Polite, but not very nice...

Hrumph.

I will admit that "Be Polite" and "Rule #1" shout outs are Mod Short Hand for "stop with the personal attacks".

But really, I think most people who find there way here are rather clever enough to work out what should and should not be said in a thread.

It really, really isn't that hard.

Alpharius wrote:So, discuss the points, and try (really!) to lay off the personal stuff.

[SNIP sound & fury]

Hrumph.

I will admit that "Be Polite" and "Rule #1" shout outs are Mod Short Hand for "stop with the personal attacks".

But really, I think most people who find there way here are rather clever enough to work out what should and should not be said in a thread.

It really, really isn't that hard.

And yet Dakka Mods seem to tolerate digs at people's intelligence and "/facepalm" and those sorts of antics?

Now, I stopped that stuff because I was trying to follow Rule 1.

If policy has changed, and this kind of thing is acceptable, I'm more than happy to start slapping back.

What do you suggest?

Why does it bother the OP so much that this happens? Can't he skim past the post, or click "Ignore User" and never be bothered again?

CT GAMER wrote:

skyth wrote:From what I've seen the Casual Gamer Mafia does plenty of bullying on other forums and it's not discouraged (In fact, at least one it's encouraged by the mods)

that doesn't excuse anything that happens here. The dakka mods are responsible for their own house irregardless of what happens elsewhere...

Dakka Mods have a laissez faire attitude towards posting in general. Abide by the primary Rules of Dakka and we generally will leave the posts alone. Having said that I am both a banker (which means I can be influenced) and a lawyer (which means I can be influenced easily). As such tangible gratitude, especially in the form of chocolate in either the cake frosting or milk chocolate delivery system, will get you far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:The mods do seem more interested in posting Japanese school girl meme pictures (where did that come from?) than actually moderating in these circumstances. Maybe they think that it is lessening tension, by making everyone laugh, but it's not moderating. Moderating is more than waggling your index finger at a group of people and going 'Naughty naughty'.

The type of bullying we get from the Casual Gaming Mafia (I'm so glad everyone likes that name! ) needs to have something done about it, but, because it's ever so 'polite', nothing will ever be done.

*transmission interrupted*

But we all know folks, that only Tournament Gamers swear. Only Tournament Gamers bully people with their power builds and their anti-Semitic rants. They're the ones filling the army lists and tactics threads with WAAC power-gaming super-builds that are designed to win games - the nerve of those racist degenerates!!!

This message brought to you by the Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia - 'Winning is for losers!'

You're free to leave at any point HBMC. No is holding a gun to your head to stay here.

Although some moderation decisions here annoy me, (mostly the swearing ban and the necro policy) I don't see much point in giving out. It doesn't detract from my enjoyment much, and the site is generally a great resource.

It's easy to suss out which posters are gonna be eejits and either ignore them or watch the antics with attached amusement. Either way, it's best to relax about it all.
(What is with those image macros though?)

Da Boss wrote:(What is with those image macros though?)

To be perfectly honest, IMO those are some of the best things on Dakka - they never fail to perk me up in an otherwise dry / boring / frustrating day.

As always, if anyone feels that the Mods aren't up to snuff or have a complaint about anything really, they are free to contact Yakface himself...

He plays Morgoth to our Sauron afterall...

Casual Gamers tend to have the notion that they have the "Moral High Ground", and that all tournament gamers are "WAAC Power Gamers"

The problem is that both groups don't understand the other, so in a lame attempt to actually bring a resolution to the argument that DOESN'T involve getting this thread locked, I'll try to bridge the gap.

To casual gamers: Yes, it's in essence, toy soldiers. But, it's also a game, and there are many people who want to win this game. So they'll take a dead 'ard list. Just because you took a "Fluffy" list, doesn't mean it's unfair. You take the units you want to take, and whether they suck (I.E. Possessed) Or their use is questionable (Tankbustas), you take what you take.

To Tournament Gamers: Yes, they field "Fluffy" Armies. Let's face it, 40k has a great storyline (I think, at least). And some people are so enthralled by a good story that they field an army based upon a facet of that story (Iyanden Eldar) or a unit that they just like the concept of (Flash Gitz). Does this make them less competitive? Yes, it does. But, sometimes, when there isn't a prize or your rep at stake, why not play, just for the sake of playing?

@Alpharius:

Mods have a thankless job, and I have no real complaints - I just want to make sure I'm more-or-less on the same page and toeing (or backing away from) the same line in the sand as everyone else.

Deadshane1 wrote:Why do "Casual Gamers" enter threads that have titles like: "How to build the Hardest Marine Army and Win at Tournaments
...and 'add' to the discussion by saying things like "you're a jerk if you build armies like this!"

Doesn't seem to happen very often...is this really an issue? Or is this just one person desperately trying to make himself feel better.

I'm seeing the opposite of HMBC's casual gamer mafia. I'm seeing a group of players not interested in politeness, not interested in civility, but interested in suppressing all outspoken voices while they strangle the life of others.

(I know this is OT, but I'm generally pretty happy with the moderation here. And modding is a thankless task, so thank you.)

The casual gamer/tournament gamer divide is mostly in people's heads I think. Remember, wherever you go, the only thing you never have to pack is a gobshite.

Frazzled wrote:You're free to leave at any point HBMC. No is holding a gun to your head to stay here.

Is that the official Dakka Dakka Staff way of saying "If you don't like GW's rules/prices, then stop playing/buying!!"? 'Cause that's what it sounds like...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RustyKnight wrote:I'm seeing the opposite of HMBC's casual gamer mafia. I'm seeing a group of players not interested in politeness, not interested in civility, but interested in suppressing all outspoken voices while they strangle the life of others.

Let me just set the record straight and say that the 'Dakka Casual Gamer Mafia' is an utterly imaginary conscruct created for no other reason than to poke fun at such extremism. It stems from what I like to call 'Exaggeration Theatre'. I don’t actually believe that there are people here like that, even if there are a few (certain) members who are a few fries short of a happy meal on both ‘sides’ of this so-called debate.

Generally speaking I hate the labels that are given out to various parts of this board, the ‘tournament gamers’ or the ‘casual gamers’, which is why I refuse to label myself as either. What I find though is that there is often a subset of certain groups that start believe that not only are they more ‘right’ in the way they act, but that their way is the morally correct way to act. My insane babbling ‘Casual Gaming Mafia’ rants represent this, as well as being my attempts to entertain the masses of Dakka (something that people appear to like given the sheer number of sigs I seem to be appearing in lately…).

So they are over the top intentionally, no one should ever take them (or me, really) seriously, I hate this ‘us and them’ mentality that gets bred in places such as this and I hate fanaticism in all its forms distasteful, and as such will pick at it whenever it appears.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You're free to leave at any point HBMC. No is holding a gun to your head to stay here.

Is that the official Dakka Dakka Staff way of saying "If you don't like GW's rules/prices, then stop playing/buying!!"? 'Cause that's what it sounds like...

No its my way of saying if you don't like the board and the modding, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. Clear enough?

Belittle, bully, bait and put down someone with some erudite wordsmanship - get nothing.

I'm not saying it's a double standard, I'm saying it's a lack of standards.

You can't just look at someone who's fething swearing their mother fething head off like some sort of blood fething sailor and go "Be polite" when he's expressing joy over something, but when you get a long-winded carefully worded load of nonsense personal attack from a certain member, nothing happens because, oh, well, he's being polite - and as long as you're polite at Dakka, you can get away with fething anything.

You complain about others making side attacks but you're the frigging prima donna of side attacks and could have, should have, been banned a long long time ago. You’ve been nursed along because your other posts are efficacious and your commentary is generally enjoyable, but that’s whats kept you here. I’ve intentionally backed off modding many, many of your posts for that reason-else you would have been GONE.

If you want to take this private and discuss the merits of whether you should remain a poster here, please fill free to do so and I’ll work up a frigging book about why you should be gone. And then you will be.

So you might want to drop it.

I seem to have touched a nerve here, so I will graciously back down and do as you have asked, letting this one drop.

Yes you did boyo, but cool now.

Good deal HBMC, Frazzled now returning to threat level: Cranky.

Frazzled (after he's calmed down with his morning coffee):

Damn Frazzled, do you have a subscription service for those sorts of pictures? "ModIcons.com" "TensionBreakers.org?"... something like that?

Wehrkind wrote:Damn Frazzled, do you have a subscription service for those sorts of pictures? "ModIcons.com" "TensionBreakers.org?"... something like that?

What, those are just home pics that the kids snap of me on occasion...

Sometimes this place makes me think there should be mods for the mods...

CT GAMER wrote:Sometimes this place makes me think there should be mods for the mods...

There is.
He who shall not be named mods the mods.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Frazzled wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Sometimes this place makes me think there should be mods for the mods...

There is.
He who shall not be named mods the mods.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Based on what I've seen in this thread he must have a lot of vacation time.

Whatever. Don't waste your "if you don't like it GTFO" grandstanding. I'm off to the P&M part of the forum.

Thanks for voicing your concern. Moderators have reviewed this thread. If you have issues with poster behavior at any other point, please be sure to hit the Alert Mod button. If you have issues with moderator performance, please be sure to advise Yakface.

11 posts.

We'll let that one go then.

Everyone back to the actual topic please.

Since nobody else is going to say anything, I'm going to point out that HBMC has some pretty good points that might be a little uncomfortable to hear.

First off, let me reiterate that I think the MOD team does a great job. If anything, they use too light a touch on posters whose behavior is consistently obnoxious, but that's just my opinion.

That said, you guys can't have it both ways. Part of the inevitable consequence of light policing is some vigilantism. You look at a guy like HBMC, he's not picking fights with noobs, he's generally responding to some pretty hostile/trollish behavior. It also tends to be funnier than most other flames here.

My point is that in any environment where there's a sort of unwritten rule about what is and isn't' allowed, you can't be too cranky at a single person for violating that taboo. You also can't be mad when that sort of stuff is pointed out.

And, am I the only one whose a little concerned that of all the posters on Dakka, the one that gets publicly called out for banning by a MOD is HMBC? It's obviously a personality conflict coupled with some tempers flaring, but that's just wrong.

(edited by Frazzled as it has been pointed out he was being overly harsh)
If you want to discuss the MODs, ok, but post it in a separate thread.

Gak, this continues to be way OT, TO THIS THREAD.

Polo I'll give you a PM reply presently.
EDIT: PM sent.

HBMC is not the only person treading the line. Nor is he the only one to whom mods have spoken, or called out publicly.

Mannahnin wrote:Thanks for voicing your concern. Moderators have reviewed this thread. If you have issues with poster behavior at any other point, please be sure to hit the Alert Mod button. If you have issues with moderator performance, please be sure to advise Yakface.

And what if you have issues with Yakface? Does it loop around and we inform the members, or is there a higher higher authority?

I'm not implying anything, I'm just curious.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
And what if you have issues with Yakface? Does it loop around and we inform the members, or is there a higher higher authority?

If you have a problem with Yakface, then you pray to God or write a letter to Santa, since I heard they all meet for a beer after 5 on a Friday.

Yak is a figment of imagination then, seeing as those other two are big fakes. The account we know as Yak is the internet itself manifested into witty posts that people instantly rally behind.

If we turn Yakface off does he sing "Daisy... Daisy..." before killing one of the crew?

H.B.M.C. wrote:If we turn Yakface off does he sing "Daisy... Daisy..." before killing one of the crew?

The wrecking crew?

"I can tell from your voice harmonics, H.B.M.C., that you're badly upset. Why don't you take a stress pill and get some rest?"

If I'm stressed, Hal, it's because you keep fething calling me fething ache-EMMM-bee-see, when it's ache-BEE-emm-see!.

GAH!

*launches self into space*

You must have launched yourself quite far HBMC, cos your flag is showing as American...

((and it's cos I keep making the abbreviation of Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar in my head when I am typing the reply... soz)

H.B.M.C. wrote:If I'm stressed, Hal, it's because you keep fething calling me fething ache-EMMM-bee-see, when it's ache-BEE-emm-see!.

Ache rather than aitch? Is that an Antipodeanism? Just curious.

I'm in space, and in space, no can can hear you correct my spelling. So !!!

Who is posting on your account atm?

No one other than me Luna.

Of course... you can't verify that I 'spose... you'll just have to take my word for it I guess.

How do I prove I'm me? Oh yes, that's how!

BYE

As the thread has remained OT now for a page despite attempts to bring it back. I'm locking it. If people are interested in discussing the topic again and staying on topic please start a new thread.