We all need troop choices. It is a fact of the game. You have to pick at least two seperate choices and you need at least those few troop choices to capture objectives in 2/3 (thanks mr.N) of all standard missions played.

Imperial guard have the following options;
1) The Infantry Platoon
2) Veteran squads
3 ..we'll get to that.

Infantry squads come in at a minimum, per choice, at 130pts and 1-2 killpoints. They are easy to kill but are upgradeable (adding to the cost) massively, eventually making them technically extremely durable as far as firepower retention is concerned. Needs support.

Veteran squads come in at a minimum, per choice, at 70pts and only 1 killpoint. They are easy to kill but this can be mitgated to a degree with upgrades and can field serious firepower that is more densely confined to groups of models. Best used with larger infantry cover-shields or better yet; Chimeras.

Lastly.. the Penal legion. Comes in at a finite 80pts per squad per kill point and has no upgrades whatsoever and has medicore to moderate killing potential. Most importantly, they can outflank with thier "Scouts" USR and secondly they are stubborn which (when combined with thier possible prowess in closecombat) means thats where they will invariably survive the longest, in melee combat..
But really, when it boils down to it, what they seem to be designed best to do is capture objectives and harass the enemy. Mobility really isnt much of an issue with Scout and they are cheap. Their longevity comes from the fact they will be arriving from reservers, thus out of harms way for atleast one turn whilst the vast majority of your forces are on the field crippling the enemy.

The best option by far when you want to sink all your remaining points into Heavy armor and firepower*
*Chimeras not included.
P.s I have searched for previous penal legion posts but its direction was towards Infantry heavy armies which is comletely contary to what I envision.

Lastly.. the Penal legion. Comes in at a finite 80pts per squad per kill point and has no upgrades whatsoever and has medicore to moderate killing potential. Most importantly, they can outflank with thier "Scouts" USR

Transports are not popular just for their mobility, but for the extra firepower (MULTILAZORS) they bring to the table, and for the extra surviveability they give to the future corpses inside.

and secondly they are stubborn which (when combined with thier possible prowess in closecombat) means thats where they will invariably survive the longest, in melee combat..

So a ld9 stubborn rerollable save means nothing to you? (commissar) also, 10 guardsmen, furious charge/counter attack or not, will die in close combat to anything short of fire warriors. Furthermore, S3 I3 furious charge is far from impressive. You go from the second worse in close combat, to a bad close combat unit. And that's IF you get the charge.

But really, when it boils down to it, what they seem to be designed best to do is capture objectives and harass the enemy. Mobility really isnt much of an issue with Scout and they are cheap. Their longevity comes from the fact they will be arriving from reservers, thus out of harms way for atleast one turn whilst the vast majority of your forces are on the field crippling the enemy.

10 guardsmen will not do a lot of effective objective capturing. an infantry platoon rains down far more firepower, with far more bodies. and A mechvet squad is far more mobile, and with their transport far more surviveable.

my summary: If you want to have your troops be a meaningful part of your battles, go with the other 2 choices. If you hate winning, go with penal legionnares.

Penal legion have their uses, BUT as a support unit..and as a harrassment unit..for me in order for them to work better they should be part of a "harrassment" detachment (marbo, valks, scout sentinels) together with an astropath so that luckily they all come out by turn 2 or 3, and distract/damage the enemy enough while your main units do their job..

However, go ahead if you want to build a themed army..should be interesting..

See..this is exactly the kinda response ive found in other threads.

Chimera's are not great gunboats, they are quite weak & pretty expensive for a tank choice (at between 145-170pts). Yes they protect the troops amazingly well but the fact remains there are stronger choices in terms of shooty. And generally shootier choices, in terms of shooty (ish).

Like I said, Infantry platoons are amazingly upgradeable (this is where I was already acknowlegding commissars, many sgt power weapons, creed, etc) but it all adds points to the troop-choice which detracts from this threads title - Tank Love.

Far more mobile? How mobile do you need? Do you need to shoot meltaguns? Do you need to get within 12" of the enemy? Do you even need to be on the board to be shot at?

Reduce the scope at which you view imperial guard troop-choices, expand upon the many awesome & varied non-troop vehicle options and I think you will have a blast.

Razerous wrote:We all need troop choices. It is a fact of the game. You have to pick at least two seperate choices and you need at least those few troop choices to capture objectives in 1/3 of all standard missions played.

Don't you mean 2/3 of all standard missions played? Only Annihilation is scored on kill points.

5th edition has a lot of objective-based games. Only troops can take objectives in 5E. Therefore, why would you shortchange your troop units? All the armor in the world is only going to contest, never capture, objectives. Your only hope is to table the opponent, which is not tactics at all.

Vehicles are indeed fun. So why wouldn't you at least stick your troop options in chimeras? Yeah, its a few more killpoints but it actually gives you a shot at holding objectives, whereas penal legion troops are probably not going to accomplish much if you field them in their minimum numbers.

Razerous wrote:See..this is exactly the kinda response ive found in other threads.

Chimera's are not great gunboats, they are quite weak & pretty expensive for a tank choice (at between 145-170pts). Yes they protect the troops amazingly well but the fact remains there are stronger choices in terms of shooty. And generally shootier choices, in terms of shooty (ish).

One hundred and fort-wha? What the hell kind of chimeras do you have? With no upgrades, those things are less than 60 points, and only 65 if you buy a hunter-killer missle for them. They're quite durable for how cheap they are, so long as the enemy's to your front.

That being said, I like the penal legion. Their stubborn special rule is all that kept me from tabling someone at a tournament. Since the objectives for the tourney were kind of oddball, the enemy had already achieved all of them by turn 3, and so in order to win we HAD to table them. They got into combat with one of my defilers, which with 4+ to hit and limited attacks, couldn't finish off the unit despite two full turns of close combat. Those suckers can be worth their weight in gold!

As far as an army of them goes, I'm not so sure. What I'd do is bring a full infantry platoon with 5 squads and a command platoon in chimeras - then just dump the penal legion in the chimeras and send them off at the enemy. Let those stubborn troops hold them down for a bit, while you isolate targets with the tanks and the infantry platoon's heavy weapons. It makes for a great theme [penal legion and police guard force] and could actually be quite effective. Just send them headlong at dakkafexes, dakka tyrants, defilers, dreadnoughts, anything with few attacks and relatively low WS and just let them tie up the enemy.

And whoever said tabling the opponent isn't tactics, really? I can see a good list tabling a bad list requiring no tactics at all. But two evenly matched lists with good players have to REALLY work hard to table one or the other, because their forces should be taking a heavy toll on each other every turn of the game. Provided the lists are good, it requires proper placement of troops and application of force and target selection to get the most out of your army and gain the upper hand. These games usually don't end in tabling the enemy, but if they do, trust me a LOT of hard thought went into it.

Razerous wrote:See..this is exactly the kinda response ive found in other threads.

Chimera's are not great gunboats, they are quite weak & pretty expensive for a tank choice (at between 145-170pts). Yes they protect the troops amazingly well but the fact remains there are stronger choices in terms of shooty. And generally shootier choices, in terms of shooty (ish).

Like I said, Infantry platoons are amazingly upgradeable (this is where I was already acknowlegding commissars, many sgt power weapons, creed, etc) but it all adds points to the troop-choice which detracts from this threads title - Tank Love.

Far more mobile? How mobile do you need? Do you need to shoot meltaguns? Do you need to get within 12" of the enemy? Do you even need to be on the board to be shot at?

Reduce the scope at which you view imperial guard troop-choices, expand upon the many awesome & varied non-troop vehicle options and I think you will have a blast.

Why do you think this seriously?

Yeah you need meltaguns, ITS THE WAY OF 5E!!!! Guard can spam the living GOD out of them, DO IT!. Chimeras are also great gunboats and when it parks up to you and hits you with 3x flamers from a mechvet squad and its MULTILAZAR and HF you will be thinking what i'm thinking too. They are GREAT!!!! Tanks!!!

I know IG armies with a lot of infantry that max out their tanks, if you want to run a tank horde i'll run my Melta Guard and win. Sorry but having a bunch of vehicle squadrons is good but you need backup, heavy weapon squads in infantry squads and chimeras to block LOS etc.

You NEED good infantry, it is how you cap objectives and how you hurt other people, Penal Legion are an OK unit but if you bring 2x squads of them in a game and thats your only troops choice i'll shake your hand before the game while thanking you.

Penal Legionaires are crap. Thinking that they can be any decent in combat is wrong. Even with stubborn, the enemy will simply just kill them. They might be able to tie something up for a turn, but that is the extent of their use. I've used them a few times before, and they just suck. Sure they might be able to outflank and attack a weak unit by the board edge, but they're still going to lose against 95% of all units in combat. If you get the assault 2 lasguns ability, they only get worse. They simply aren't worth 8 points a piece. They are worse than kroot and they cost more.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:Penal Legionaires are crap. Thinking that they can be any decent in combat is wrong. Even with stubborn, the enemy will simply just kill them. They might be able to tie something up for a turn, but that is the extent of their use. I've used them a few times before, and they just suck. Sure they might be able to outflank and attack a weak unit by the board edge, but they're still going to lose against 95% of all units in combat. If you get the assault 2 lasguns ability, they only get worse. They simply aren't worth 8 points a piece. They are worse than kroot and they cost more.

Umm, I think "crap" may be too strong a word.....I also have used them and they are not bad...even if they die it means something used their shots/assault versus them, which is perfect since they are meant to distract and die anyway.

Use them within their limitations, and like I said if they are used as part of a harrassment group, and not individually, they can pull off surprises...

The gunslinger ability is not bad for me....that means you can use them at range..granted versus some armies (mechanised) they may not do well, but against any foot army they can do some hurt, and may force some of his units to displace in order to reach the penal legionnaires...if so they have doen their job....

Penal legionaries are great.

IF you recognize their use on the battlefield.

They are harassment units, they are weak enough not to draw the heaviest firepower (keeping them alive), but strong enough to be a genuine thorn in the enemy's side.

Best of all they can outflank and score. This is what really sets them apart and makes them a genuine thorn.

You can't leave them alone on the field, but they don't warrant your heavy guns (but if they draw heavy guns, then your better stuff has been spared).

You have our enemy thinking of how much firepower it will take to wipe them off the board.

The important thing is that. THEY ARE NOT part of your main strategy, they are there to operate separately and make your enemy think about them.

johnjohnson wrote:Penal legionaries are great.

IF you recognize their use on the battlefield.

They are harassment units, they are weak enough not to draw the heaviest firepower (keeping them alive), but strong enough to be a genuine thorn in the enemy's side.

Best of all they can outflank and score. This is what really sets them apart and makes them a genuine thorn.

You can't leave them alone on the field, but they don't warrant your heavy guns (but if they draw heavy guns, then your better stuff has been spared).

You have our enemy thinking of how much firepower it will take to wipe them off the board.

The important thing is that. THEY ARE NOT part of your main strategy, they are there to operate separately and make your enemy think about them.

QFT.

Thank you. My thoughts exactly.

Just like Ratling and marbo, they are there to unnerve you opponent and provide a target that can't be ignored but also is not deadly enough to dedicate resources to. They are cheap and worth it even if they don't make their points back (but they often will). I wouldn't stuff you list with them due to KP rules, but 1-2+ of thorn units would be good.

By letting them do their own thing, you distract the enemy from their plan, forcing them to be reactive. Letting your main force do its thing.

Im more talking about taking 2-3 units (and possibly, at games higher than 1500pts, harker and some melta vets) to act purely as harassment and objective takers. Thats 160-240pts worth of troops and thats it. 1250-1340pts worth of tank. Love it.

I don't subscribe to using penal legionaries in that fashion. 0-2 units max and are useful in filling out the second troops slot in small points game (after you have bought your large blob squad).

They derive their real power from the fact that they outflank and have a nasty random special ability (which adds to their distraction benefit). Scoring is icing on the cake and what makes them a real threat. A rogue scoring CC guard squad is running around in back field.

If you focus your full points in them, they will be easily wiped out. 3 penal squads can be taken out easily. They are one of the few units that should be played exactly as they are portrayed in the fluff.

I guess 2-3 units can be taken out easily, but thats why they only cost 8ppm (ever) and can stay deploy from reserves via the outflank manouever covering most issues with manouverability and adding to surviability.

But they wont get taken out easily as a very large proportion of the ideal army (to be fielded with these penals) is heavy armor/heavy firepower tanks which will require conserted efforts to remove.

The main point is the outflank/scout ability.

But in 2/3rd of games they are the units that matter! They will get wiped off the board as they are the main target. Thorn units survive because of their low priority nature. 5th ed is all about troops

0-2 penal legionaries are a cheap way to get more cheap scoring units that can serve as a distraction, but they are not the core of an army.

And in 2/3 of those games the units that matter most wont be around to be shot at nor will they be a point-sink allow ME to shoot at THIER troop choices for a good few turns before I need to think about defending my own. If I really need to keep them alive, I may stick them inside a valkyrie I will probably be fielding.

Three veteran squads in three chimeras, I would say, are more vunerable to death.

Although, I apologise if im sounding reactionary.

If you are trying to just fill the minimum troop requirements at minimum cost, then you may as well go with vets. At least that way you have a good chance of digging into some cover and putting down some effective shooting. If you are just looking for scoring units, I would go with two bare-bones infantry platoons. 260 points for the pair, and you get a minimum of 6 scoring units. That leaves plenty of points for your tanks, and still gives you enough flexibility in a objectives game.

I think somebody's tactics article (HBMC?) back at the release of the guard codex pointed out that penal legions could make good bodyguards for your tanks.

The idea would be to build a very tank-heavy army and rely on the treads to do the killing, and take penal legions to keep the opponent away from your vehicles--by scout/harassing, tarpitting, or hiding behind the tanks until the right moment to make a banzai countercharge versus approaching units.

They would do this job better than vets or regular platoons because their special rules make them able to do it, but mostly, as Razerous pointed out, because they're just 80 points flat for the unit. After all the upgrades you'd make on an infantry platoon or vet squad, especially mechanized, it works out cheaper-per-model, and gives you more points to spend on your tanks.

I haven't tried it or seen anybody try it, but it sounds feasible to me.

Yeah but even used like that... you'd have to take more than the minimum FOC requirement. You would have to take all 6 for that to be feasible, I imagine.

So you outflank them...then what? they can stay outflanked forever. You have to put them on the table sometime -and- you have to find a way to keep them alive long enough to win.

Sorry, two penal legions is not going to cut it.

For a infantry-based tank cover wall, Infantry platoons are the way to go because of the 'Combined squad' rule. 30 stubborn models with a re-rollable LD9 is all the tarpit you'll ever need. Sadly this costs 215pts without upgrades (and is well worth buying upgrades) meaning its a good chunk of army thus must & should do somthing useful.. which nesessitates those upgrades making the unit that much more expensive.

Using infantry platoons as units to do stuff; never get two unless you want more than 5 infantry sqauds. The Platoon command squad is a waste in terms of killpoints and a possible point sink (a great valkyrie transportee though, with meltas/flamers). One platoon and 1+ veteran/penal squads.

Its the 80pts of scoutable/outflankable men which is the crux. What do you do when you come from reserves via outflank (or standard reserves depending on objective deployement)? You engage the enemy and/or run for the objectives.

This idea of the above being suicide is a bit illogical.. with such a tiny amount of your force not prescent it allows you to bring most of it to bear and shoot the Gak™ out of the other guy. Whats left after 2-3 turns can try and deal with those penals but in reality will probably fall to thier attacks or be insuffeceint to finish em off. I thinks.

Penals don't have to be suicidal, but if you outflank them, do expect them to die. They are not strong enough or have a good transport to protect them.

Two infantry platoons is a bit too much for most games but they do have their benefits.

Remember Infantry/Veterans are core troops, Penal legions are the surprise thorn troops.

You can always leave the platoon command squad at home and order itself to hug the ground to hold the objective.

...and that is fine for Killpoint or annihilation games, but what about the other 2 out of 3 games that are objective based? You only have 2 scoring units, and any reasonably intelligent person is going to know that and do their best to prevent those units from taking anything worthwile (tarpitting them, shooting the gak out of them, breaking their morale and sending them running, etc). They don't have to necessarily destroy the penal legionnaires to keep them from accomplishing anything.

What if they have an Officer of the fleet? Or two? Your only troop option may arrive too late to do anything, and all you can hope for is a tie. Or, they get there late, but due to the lack of maneuverability (and possibly ending up on the wrong side of the table thanks to the OotF) they can't reach an objective in time. Same result- hope for a tie. Giving them first shot at all the objectives doesn't seem tactically sound... it is (almost) always harder to attack then it is to defend (at least with shooty armies like guard). Your enemies only have to take their objectives and go to ground for bonus cover saves, and they should survive long enough to make trouble for your legionnaires walking on.

I see what you are getting at... using the least amount of other stuff so you can get Max Tanks. That part of it makes sense, but the overall synergy of the army is what seems like it would be lacking. Without a solid core of troops to do the objectives work, I don't see this tactic being very effective. As others have said, penal troops can be very effective in a more supportive role, rather than your sole scoring troops taken in the minimum FOC requirement.

I love tanks too, myself, but that is why I try to stuff all my troops into chimeras. Chimeras are tanks too, after all.

IG need a solid troop base, whether that be a commissar blob horde or chim vets (or a mix). Once you have that, you can add penals and aircav to mix it up

55pt +30-45pt + 35pt blobs of points that arent going on valks, russes, artillery and hellhounds.

160-240pts vs 300-450pts vs 400pts+

Penals vs mechvets vs Infantry platoons.

I personally think IG are much better off with a solid TANK base but thats just my 2 cents. I shall leave my thread alone for now.

Everything that doesn't score is fire support, if you can't hold objectives, you can't win.

Razerous wrote:
I personally think IG are much better off with a solid TANK base but thats just my 2 cents. I shall leave my thread alone for now.

Good thing chimeras are tanks then!

I call chimeras transports, not tanks.

Chimeras in the 5th ed IG codex are an amazing option and I find it highly amusing and ironic that im about to..

And I think they are pretty weak and puny and lack firepower for the points you spend overall. Melta-type weaponary can easily be replaced by devil dogs, vanquishers, both types of Medusas and Manticores so you need not remind me that IG need to field melta weaponary.

I understand you can build a very effective force around mechvets and mechCCS but im trying to establish (and troubleshoot/varify through this thread) that you can use penals to cheaply capture objectives and field lots of fun toys in tandem.

Oh, well in that case, I think we pretty much covered all their uses/shortcomings already. So how would the rest of your list look like? Synergy is really more important than a single unit choice in a case like this.

Razerous wrote:
I understand you can build a very effective force around mechvets and mechCCS but im trying to establish (and troubleshoot/varify through this thread) that you can use penals to cheaply capture objectives and field lots of fun toys in tandem.

in order to capture an objective you have to be on the board, within 6 inches of an objective, with no enemy units within 6 inches of that objective. Penal Legionnares will have an extremely difficult time accomplishing this. Yes, tanks are fun, but would it really kill you to spend 500-ish points on the most important part of your army?
Also, fielding fun toys for the sake of fielding fun toys is not competitive. I love my repentia, does that mean I take them to 'ard boyz and wonder why I lost? No. My boyfriend is a white scars player, and he loves vanguard vets. They are a fun unit. He leaves them at home when playing for real. You, apparently love tanks. Fine, bring 9 leman russes to a 1500 point pick-up game, nobody will care, just don't try and tell us it is the most competitive, or even a good, idea.

Razerous wrote:I call chimeras transports, not tanks.

Chimeras in the 5th ed IG codex are an amazing option and I find it highly amusing and ironic that im about to..

And I think they are pretty weak and puny and lack firepower for the points you spend overall. Melta-type weaponary can easily be replaced by devil dogs, vanquishers, both types of Medusas and Manticores so you need not remind me that IG need to field melta weaponary.

I understand you can build a very effective force around mechvets and mechCCS but im trying to establish (and troubleshoot/varify through this thread) that you can use penals to cheaply capture objectives and field lots of fun toys in tandem.

Pretty weak and puny?

You just listed 4 other tanks that you presumably deem "good" yet 3 of them have the exact same Front armor value and on is open topped to boot! For a minimal points outlay, your "lacking firepower" tank can be throwing 3 str 6, 3 str 5, 3 str 4 shots. And that thing doesn't have to squadron up with his mates, negating the effctive firepower of the army. You can only have soooo many lemans before the redundency is wasteful.

Flavius Infernus wrote:penal legions could make good bodyguards for your tanks.

I'll take a 10-man infantry squad w/ a flamer over penals for this job any day. For less than 70% of the cost of legionnaires I get a vaguely threatening weapon and I don't want my tank babysitters to last past the charge anyway. That's the whole point, in fact; their job is to move up and rapid/flame melta/PF carriers, be charged, die, and let me mash whatever charged them with the tanks they were babysitting in the first place.

Shotgun wrote:[a chimera] doesn't have to squadron up with his mates, negating the effctive firepower of the army. You can only have soooo many lemans before the redundency is wasteful.

The first point is virtually moot, as the increase in killpoints far outweighs any firepower negation you may get. Most AT is fewer than 3 shots from any given unit; very unlikely to overkill. Assault is the exception, but is a write-off for most things anyway. And no, it's virtually impossible to over-field AV14 tanks. Now, you'll likely also UNDERfield scoring units and suck a big fat tie, but unless you're fielding 9 punishers or 9 eradicators you'll always have a viable target for your russes. Exterminators, regular LRBT, and demolishers are all very capable of both transport and infantry killing.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I think somebody's tactics article (HBMC?) back at the release of the guard codex pointed out that penal legions could make good bodyguards for your tanks.

The idea would be to build a very tank-heavy army and rely on the treads to do the killing, and take penal legions to keep the opponent away from your vehicles--by scout/harassing, tarpitting, or hiding behind the tanks until the right moment to make a banzai countercharge versus approaching units.

They would do this job better than vets or regular platoons because their special rules make them able to do it, but mostly, as Razerous pointed out, because they're just 80 points flat for the unit. After all the upgrades you'd make on an infantry platoon or vet squad, especially mechanized, it works out cheaper-per-model, and gives you more points to spend on your tanks.

I haven't tried it or seen anybody try it, but it sounds feasible to me.

Very very seconded. I use a Penal Legion squad for flank security. I've found that even 8 tanks take up so much space that your flanks are scarily close to the board edge. Only 2 or 3 of the 4 chimeras ever seem to move very far. The 2 russes and 2 hydras are usually pretty static on my board edge doing their fire support thing. Fielding a penal legion squad down the board edge (or in some cover nearby) means that pesky flanking CC troops can't run straight on the board and start eating my tanks. They are only a speedbump, but they do give you some time to deal with frontal threats before redeploying to meet the flank danger.

True, but a normal infantry squad can do the same.

55 points with flamer
60 with flamer/mortar
55 with GL
65 with GL/AC

All cheaper and more flexible than a penal legion squad.

Hell, even veterans are cheaper.

Penal Legion=Throrn/Distraction Unit that can score

Penal Legion=/=Core of an army, only scoring unit

Wow, no love for the penal legions on this thread, Razerous.

I see the argument in favor of penal legions as part of a larger discussion that has been taking place with various armies since the release of 5e--that where fully decked-out troop units in transports are comparatively expensive (and comparatively weak in terms of durability or firepower) that there's an option B, which is to go for fewer, cheaper troops and spend the leftover points on more killy things.

Eldar and some Tau armies went through it a long time ago, and the same discussion about space marines came up a couple of weeks ago.

What? I love penal legions, they do what they say on the tin.

Besides IG have easy access to cheap disposable troops that can act as cover for tanks. If you take peal legionares you are paying extra for an ability that is not going to help you. You want the guardsmen to get killed off, you don't want CC ability and stubborn. They get killed off and prevent an assault on your precious tanks, letting your tanks open fire on the guardsmen slayers.

*sigh*

Yes veterans are cheaper, as are Infantry squads. Sadly you have to buy two infantry squads and a PCS not including any upgrades. After upgrades they must become an intergral shooty part of your army due to point-cost.

Veterans are cheaper but again, need a chimera and atleast 30pts worth of upgrades to be at-all useful. This makes them near-double the points of a penal legion.

Penal legions, I argue, are much more flexible than either choice as they can outflank (the only thing ive reallly been banging on all this time) and thus dont need transport support and thus can work independantly from the army.

As for weak and puny chimeras (do please read my entire post before ranting) they are exactly that. AV10 on the sides and they cost 155pts for a minimum cost useful veteran unit, with meltas. That crazy awesome amount if firepower wont actually ever get used as the tank will be gunning it towards melta-range where-by its doubtful it will have that MULTILAZAR left intact.. although they are cool h.flamer platforms. Still weak and puny. Puny also means slow in my book. Its more of a concept book. The medusa makes up for being open topped (not actually a gospel fact, when you buy ECC) and CEQ (Chimera equivelent) by having awesome firepower potential.

I think two penals with a veteran squad and gunnery sgt harker with some melta & an autocannon / or 3 penals will form my troop base of my 8-vehicle tank army.

Razerous wrote:

I think two penals with a veteran squad and gunnery sgt harker with some melta & an autocannon / or 3 penals will form my troop base of my 8-vehicle tank army.

Hmmm, this is also a good way to get a viable guard army on the table relatively quickly without having to paint all those guys up-front.

What 8 vehicles are you using, Razerous?

Razerous wrote:*sigh*



I think two penals with a veteran squad and gunnery sgt harker with some melta & an autocannon / or 3 penals will form my troop base of my 8-vehicle tank army.

You be sure and let us know what happens when the objective is on the other side of the board that your outflankers came in at or stuck in the middle.

How many games have you played with several chimeras? I have played more than 10 games with at least 4 chimeras, and I do not play pure mechanised, but a combo of foot and mech (sometimes with a penal legion squad), and the most chimeras that have been killed is 3, and that was when I fielded 6....2 chimeras dead is pretty much the average, and the other 4 are basically still functional (either immobilised or 1 WD, but definitely could still contribute)....

You are not playing them well then..fielding them across the table in a straight line is folly..deploy them in a wedge (2 wedges with 6 chimeras) so that the rear ones are in cover, preferably with terrain to the side....and angled towards the opposite corner.......multiple multilaser shots is no joke, and up close heavy flamers WILL kill enemy infantry....The chimera wedges are also positioned to provide cover saves to my artillery vehicles BTW, as well as to parts of my foot gunline....

A while ago I played 2 1850 pt games, and I had 10 vehicles (all AV 12/10/10, except the vendetta)..1 versus a jetbike council with serpents and wraithlords, another versus a hestan list with 3(!!!) land raiders and 9 assault termies plus a termie librarian..won both, and really in both games no more than 4 vehicles were destroyed....some chimeras were single WD, some immobilized, but otherwise functional...but the chimeras have always done well in terms of both killing the enemy, as well as providing a credible threat so much so that my firebase is usually still intact by game end (although those assault termies nearly broke it...)

vehicles are really harder to kill! (but multiple meltas really help, as well as manticore rockets)....

Three squads (PCS+2I) are perfect for objective holding and tank defense. Plus that saves points for more penal legion squads. GLs or flamers + mortars of ACs let them also serve as light fire support to distract from your penal legion.

That is cheap minimal tank support.

1 valkyrie with MRP's
1 vendetta stock
2x Devil dogs with HHF in a squadren
1 executioner
1 eradicator
1 vanquisher with pask, lascannon and multi-melta sponsons.

I was going to field just 2 or 3 penal legionnaires but after reading replies from this post and (coincidentaly) Gwars! troop-No. thread I have decided that some infiltrating veterans are the way to go.. otherwise I wouldve had a second Eradicator.. not the most loved tank but I like it plus im scared of the hordes... But yeah, that ^^

Edit: lol thats 7 >.<

You know what put something in those flyers..even if it is more penal legion..so that they can claim something..
Good luck with your list..it is actually as thin as paper, hope it works out!

Take the multi melta sponsoons off the Vanquisher, Pask turns it into the ultimate long range tank killer, multi-melta sponsoons are only slightly better than HF sponsoons.

Paper-thin? I dont even know where thats going. I shall run away from it.

When the main cannon gets ripped off by fire and the enemy gets closer (which they will) my very expensive tank still has quite a few options. It also makes it quite a nice MC killer. Its my anti-monolith vehicle & whilst I originally planned for medusas to fill that roll, I decided to opt for the heavier varient. Do bear in mind that those MM are str9 ap1 weapons when the leman russ stands still.

Heavy flamer sponsons.. umm why? Either plasma cannons/h.bolters/nothing would serve this tank better than heavy flamers? Anyways, heavy flamers are much MUCH better on a front-hull hard-point thats a fast vehicle.

The valkyries are viable weapon platforms in thier own right but yes, I may decide to have one/both penals embarked inside the valks depending on the situation.

HF and MM sponsoons are a bad deal, that is what I meant.

Plasma sponsoons. Two S8 blasts? and 12" extra range lets it kill MCs and light vehicles who stray too close, much better choice

Yeah I was looking at eradicators too. Like penal legions it's heresy against the current popular wisdom, but makes sense for an army that isn't going to be packing tons of flamers.

There are no bad IG LR tanks (besides the Punisher), there are however three great tanks (LRBT, Demolisher and Executioner). So you have to compete against those when you choose a LR.

johnjohnson wrote:HF and MM sponsoons are a bad deal, that is what I meant.

Plasma sponsoons. Two S8 blasts? and 12" extra range lets it kill MCs and light vehicles who stray too close, much better choice

No its not, not when you factor pask into it.

Besides Pask makes a tank very expensive, it is best to cut costs down. Those MM could be used for many different things.

The longer range on the PC make them worthwhile, the blast gives it flexibility to kill infantry.

Dont you understand the term context.

How much infantry killing blast/template action have I got going on elsewhere in those tanks listed? Pask is worth being made expensive for the benifits he provides. Its usually worth keeping costs down on tanks I agree.

Lol you can't win huh, Razerous? I think your MM sponsons on the Vanquisher are fine. Pask may be overdoing it a little, but hopefully you keep that tank out of reach so it doesn't get taken apart at first opportunity. A caution... watch out for deepstrikers. Tau stealth suits got my Russ last tournament I went to because I neglected to keep a rearguard for the russ.

The "Paskquisher" is pretty nice as well.

Actually, Pask with a Punisher could be pretty tasty too. What with Heavy bolter sponsons. That's like 29 shots from Heavy Bolters all at BS4. Hell if you sit still, aren't they all S6 too?!?!!?

And Plasma Cannons are good for Pask because they scatter less, and Plasma Cannons are very good anti-deepstrike defence.

As is an executioner.

I think there is a fundamental flaw in some of the arguments posted here for penal legion.

They do not take fire away from your tanks, because anything with anti-tank weaponry will not be firing at them. Put them up against another guard army with everything in chimeras and they can be ignored the entire game until it is time to tank shock them off an objective.

By saturating the table with mech, you take the fire away from your killing tanks. In addition, each of those vehicles can potentially shoot at a different target. Wouldn't that be better than relying on 6-7 single vehicles to do all of your army's damage? What happens when you lose three to an opponent's anti-tank by the end of turn two?

Mechanized guard work really well. Foot guard work really well. Even a bit of a mix works well. Having a bare minimum of troops and a small number of ultra-killy tanks will not work. You are basically giving your opponent a short list of priority targets to focus.

He is right about the Veterens though, they look like a steal at 70pts but I've found the functional cost to be between 155~230.

Unmounted (or un-infiltrated) and without special weapon focus they don't warrant purchase over a regular infantry squad or the penile legion.

Fearspect wrote:Wouldn't that be better than relying on 6-7 single vehicles to do all of your army's damage?

Exactly how many "tanks" do you assume you can get into a 1500pt force?

I have no clue why you are quoting tanks like I am talking about something ridiculous or focusing on 1500 points as a limit. Yes, at less points you would have less in your army, and the problems I addressed above would be even more glaringly obvious.

RxGhost wrote:He is right about the Veterens though, they look like a steal at 70pts but I've found the functional cost to be between 155~230.

Unmounted (or un-infiltrated) and without special weapon focus they don't warrant purchase over a regular infantry squad or the penile legion.

this made me chuckle, so thats what their extra close combat weapon is!

Good for a counts as slaaneshi cultist army...

Can't believe I went there...

Fearspect wrote:I have no clue why you are quoting tanks like I am talking about something ridiculous or focusing on 1500 points as a limit. Yes, at less points you would have less in your army, and the problems I addressed above would be even more glaringly obvious.

Because this is what im basing my army list around, a 1500pt limit. This is also why I mentioned 7 tanks, not 3, not 15.

You stated merely 6-7. How many tanks, at a rough guess, would you field in a 1500pt guard mech vet army?

"Tanks" is a jovial referance to earlier where I mentioned chimera as transports not tanks, go read the entire post before saying anything rash.

Chimera are light tanks, they are decently armored on front, can put out a respectable amount of fire on themselves. And with infantry inside, they can unleash hell. Though they do need to be taken in groups to combat their weak side armor.

Razerous wrote:

Fearspect wrote:I have no clue why you are quoting tanks like I am talking about something ridiculous or focusing on 1500 points as a limit. Yes, at less points you would have less in your army, and the problems I addressed above would be even more glaringly obvious.

Because this is what im basing my army list around, a 1500pt limit. This is also why I mentioned 7 tanks, not 3, not 15.

You stated merely 6-7. How many tanks, at a rough guess, would you field in a 1500pt guard mech vet army?

"Tanks" is a jovial referance to earlier where I mentioned chimera as transports not tanks, go read the entire post before saying anything rash.

But Chimera's have a armor value so need to be treated as tanks as they direct fire from other tanks. That's the concept of mech, too many targets overwhelm the ability of your opponent's AT to take them all out.

As a comparison, in my 1,000 point Mech Dark Angels army I have about 7 tanks. If you want to do mech, probably 9-10 tanks is closer to what you'll end up with at 1,500.

I will field 8-9 vehicles at 1500 pts, with a foot component as a firebase..

Razerous wrote:

Fearspect wrote:I have no clue why you are quoting tanks like I am talking about something ridiculous or focusing on 1500 points as a limit. Yes, at less points you would have less in your army, and the problems I addressed above would be even more glaringly obvious.

Because this is what im basing my army list around, a 1500pt limit. This is also why I mentioned 7 tanks, not 3, not 15.

You stated merely 6-7. How many tanks, at a rough guess, would you field in a 1500pt guard mech vet army?

"Tanks" is a jovial referance to earlier where I mentioned chimera as transports not tanks, go read the entire post before saying anything rash.

Okay, so let's go with 7 for your list (seems like it falls in the 6-7 range...) You have seven total useful weapons in your entire army now. Every tank you lose, your effectiveness goes down 1/7th. Meanwhile, you could have your vets or platoons in useful transports also having a significant (read: any) impact on the game, while still having powerful tanks to blast things.

You could also run the Guard with the powerful tanks, but with loaded out troops on foot, contributing to the damage on the table. The point that I am trying to make is that seven weapons at 1500 points is really not enough. It looks fine on paper I suppose, but they other army gets to shoot back at you, unfortunately :(

I made reference in my post to every concept discussed prior to it in this thread, and I certainly am not going to speak rashly! Just trying to help someone play better. Don't worry, I don't take offense to your ravings too much, in general they just make me giggle.

Just to point out, I am also including a CCS with a MOO (not so much because its the best choice.. I just love the idea of widly inaccurate unlimited range str9 ap3 pie for 80pts) aswell as two penals and a triple melta, autocannon vet squad led by harker.. whom will probably infiltrate his men into cover on the field.

Three tanks are individual leman russes. Two devil dogs are in a squadren and two valkyries are seperate. Just to give you the groupings.

I think im just eating a lot of flame for my like of penal legions. .

No, penal legions are great, they just are not the infantry core, which your army is light one.

Objectives and troops are the name of the game in 5th

Agreed. Against a horde ork you really will have to play smart, since your vehicles will be eaten alive in assault, and if your penal legion outflanks you will not have screens to blunt the enemy offensive, especially if the fight is in the middle of the board.

In this case it may be better to deploy the penal guys instead of outflanking, and hope you thin the enemy so that the penal legion can hold their own during crunch time.

Anyone ever watch the movie the dirty dozen. They were dropped in and killed every German officer in sight before dying. This is what the penal legionaries do, and they do it well. They must however work in conjunction with the rest of the army. They are not a random support unit, they are not the army core. They are there as a thorn in the side/surgical strike unit to come in and smash up something important and then go from warm bodies to cold bodies. Speaking of warm bodies and point cost razerous if you want a good unit for low point cost, look at conscripts. I know you need to purchase the basic platoon for that, but forget that, it can be used and doesn't significantly detract from your tank horde. for the same 80 points you just got more bodies. Remember that as guardsmen they have no close combat ability that will turn the tide of battle, they will still die, they just might inflict a wound. But you have tanks to inflict that wound, so why not cram in more warm bodies to tar pit for longer so your tank can get a good shot. Yes they don't have stubborn, yes they don't have a grab bag of rolled for goodies, but all you have to do is throw in a lord commisar and bang you just got the best tar pit in the world for the same price (- the lord commisar).

Blob squads cost 1 point more for better stats, can be stubborn with hidden commissar for 35 points and don't need a 70 point basecost IC that takes up a valuable HQ slot. Plus they can take heavy and special weapons, giving them firesupport (ACs) at cheap cost, so even if your tanks are secure they can do stuff. IG is overwhelming firepower, it doesn't matter ho you overwhelm them, you just have to,

And yes Penals are the perfect distraction/thorn unit.

But I find them better as a rogue force, they help out and kill important stuff, but you don't count them and plan the main strategy with your force that is on the board, so when the penal (or Marbo) comes, you just got an ace in the hole, as compared to waiting for something that may come too late to be useful.

Razerous wrote:Just to point out, I am also including a CCS with a MOO (not so much because its the best choice.. I just love the idea of widly inaccurate unlimited range str9 ap3 pie for 80pts) aswell as two penals and a triple melta, autocannon vet squad led by harker.. whom will probably infiltrate his men into cover on the field.

Three tanks are individual leman russes. Two devil dogs are in a squadren and two valkyries are seperate. Just to give you the groupings.

I think im just eating a lot of flame for my like of penal legions. .

Disagreeing with you != Flaming you.

Having a plan is much more useful. Wiping out say the HQ is where they are useful. Instead of letting them off the leash to die having been a nuisance, let them kill something that benefits the entire army.

Second you can have the original platoon that you bought do he whole fire support thing. You don't have to clump your support and attack and antitank into one unit. Let the conscripts take the bullets while the real guardsmen support your units. The point is not about the ability to inflict damage, its about how much damage can they take. You can have more conscripts than guardsmen, and both die equally fast. I do wish that they could take a commissar, I put the lord commissar in there to keep the conscripts from s@%#ing their pants and running off. I have to double heck if there is a better IC to babysit them.

Even if you strip them bare, basic guardsmen only cost 1 point more for better WS/BS and Ld. And they can separate/blob when needed.

When my Penals arrive out of reserves, they do have a mission, but until they arrive, I forget about them and plan accordingly.

Delete this i'm stupid.

Razerous, the problem here is that you are taking this too personally. We are not saying you are a stupid or bad player for suggesting this idea, we are just saying we don't think it will work like you want it to. Most of us (I can only speak for myself with assurance) are not outright disagreeing with you, but are merely stating what we see as errors or hiccups in the intended strategy you envisioned for Penal troops. I think liking penal troops is fine, but I am just trying to help by pointing out that taking the minimum FOC of them is not a super-competitive strategy. Yes, it gets you more toys. As a tread-lover myself, I think that is awesome too. But as a game player, I think you would have to max them out (6 squads) in order to get the effect you want with them. If I sounded like I was flaming then I apologize, I was just trying to help.

For the record, I think it could work.

Two penal legion as the only troops on the field?

I would not say it couldn't work, but I am a bit sceptical.

Agreed, outflanking the penal legionnaires protects them from a few rounds of fire, but I see quite some disadvantages there.

The basic point for me is their vulnerability. 10x T3 5+ can be killed in one round of concentrated shooting, especially with templates. Thinking of griffon-style mortar bombardment or, even worse, whirlwind incendiary missiles right now.

1. What if the enemy outflanks big parts of his army, too? Then your basic plan of shooting the crap out of his force before your troop choices arrive suffers quite a lot and, furthermore, enemy troops will probably spawn not far away from your earlier outflanked penal legionnaires.

2. What if the enemy fields above mentioned support weapons and you are not able to destroy them, because of BLOS or something else? I just want to compare it with an infantry squad in a chimera. Costs 25 points more, but is invulnerable to direct template death, because their vehicle has to be hit first. Defensively played, using cover and smoke launchers, I'd prefer a chimera over outflanking.

3. This is more about choosing just 2 troop choices. Bad table layout can make it hard for footsloggers to get into position in the given time. Bad rolls for reinforcements could get your penal legionnaires into play in 4th or 5th round; if the end of the game might be that near, they would probably have to sprint on the double to get onto maybe enemy-controlled objectives in time. That leaves not much room and time for hugging cover and taking out threats before advancing. This, in result, increases their vulnerability. If the objectives are near the edges, this is not that much of a problem, but still.

Again, it might work and I wish you luck trying it, but I, personally, would rather work with some trusty veterans in chimeras.

Three to four penal legion as the only troops.

You guys are over-fixating on the outflanking. Most of the time there's no need to outflank. Only outflank if there's some compelling reason to do so, otherwise just set up in cover by local objectives or, when there's no indirect fire from the enemy, use tank hulls as cover. Use scouting to shift around if you need to if you set up first.

Then spend the points you would have spent on chimeras and infantry upgrades on the specialized tanks: hellhound variants for their speed and better-than-chimeras side armor, hydras, vendettas. Especially in games of 1500 points or less, those extra points can represent a significant amount of firepower.

In objective games, win by claiming your home objective(s) and shooting everybody off the others or contesting with fast tanks. You don't need infantry to footslog across the board, or even necessarily to go in the open at any point.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Three to four penal legion as the only troops.

You guys are over-fixating on the outflanking. Most of the time there's no need to outflank. Only outflank if there's some compelling reason to do so, otherwise just set up in cover by local objectives or, when there's no indirect fire from the enemy, use tank hulls as cover. Use scouting to shift around if you need to if you set up first.

Then spend the points you would have spent on chimeras and infantry upgrades on the specialized tanks: hellhound variants for their speed and better-than-chimeras side armor, hydras, vendettas. Especially in games of 1500 points or less, those extra points can represent a significant amount of firepower.

In objective games, win by claiming your home objective(s) and shooting everybody off the others or contesting with fast tanks. You don't need infantry to footslog across the board, or even necessarily to go in the open at any point.

Theoretically, yes..in reality difficult to do, especially as razorous list had 7 expensive vehicles, and few troops....thus he needs to spread out the points more to generate more shooting......

I agree that penal legions should only outflank if necessary, but holding the line with them will be iffy, as they lack stopping power versus a major assault, so their role will be (appropriately) to act as speedbumps and die while hopefully the vehicles shoot at things, but if the enemy reaches them,. there is a good chance they will hold (due to stubborn) and then die in the next turn, leaving the assault unit free in its turn to get in among the armor, and as you know in CC everything is even stevens since most of the IG armor have rear AV10 (except for the demolisher variants), easy meat for power klaws and thunder hammers....

Still, this is all theoryhammer. The proponents of this idea should put the list together, try it out, then tell us what happens....

Devil dogs, valkyries, vendettas and eradicators are not expensive tanks.

So, whats with all the flame?

Im gonna go for two penals and harker-led veterans.

Edit: Also, while rear-armor 10 is a target for massed str4 attacks and PK and thunderhammers.. fast-moving vehicles can wade through alot of those types of attacks and come out the other side unscathed. Do the math.

If you want to hold the line, 30 man plus squads with commissar gives Ld 9 stubborn with re-roll.

For breaking when need be. 10 man squads with special/heavy are cheap and will break at the first turn of combat, letting you open up tank firepower. And till they act as speedbumps, they can give supporting fire. Never Underestimate 3-4+ Autocannons as tank support.

Suddenly those chargers, now have to charge through many squads of infantry, each with weapons that will pepper your assaulters with shots,

Razerous, am not flaming you...in fact go ahead and try the list out...if it works then fantastic that is another build that I can try out....just do NOT understimate the power of massed CC attacks versus your tanks, even if you move fast..it just takes a couple of good hits, and the more dice the enemy rolls the better the odds, mathhammer be damned.....

and I still encourage you to put something in those skimmers....makes them double useful.....in fact you can put your 2 penal legion squads there..at least when they come in they do so as a combined force, with less chance of the units being scattered about....

Razerous wrote:
Using infantry platoons as units to do stuff; never get two unless you want more than 5 infantry sqauds. The Platoon command squad is a waste in terms of killpoints and a possible point sink (a great valkyrie transportee though, with meltas/flamers).

I agree it is a point sink, but I don't think it is a waste. In the anniliation game I played last night against Eldar, I had two platoon command squads running up toward them with 3 flamers and a medi-pack guy. They were able to run run run themselves up through cover getting up to the enemy forces. Granted, between the two of them, they only took out a handful of Striking Scorpions, but they drew fire from everything else, and he had to focus fire quite a bit to get to them. Against a more dedicated enemy, I'd almost say they're as good as Vets for loading up into Chimeras with melta and going tank hunting.

Consider this:
1 Vet squad with 3 melta and no other upgrade - 100 pts
Platoon squad with 4 melta - 70 pts.

Since PCS has BS 3, the odds come out to be about even between the two. If you're taking at least 4 infantry squads, you may as well do it this way, because then you get a 30 point reduction on your meltas. Additionally, if you do have points to burn, you can add Al'rahem for another 70 and let them Bring it Down on the enemy tank, giving them 4 twin-linked shots instead.

I usually buy nothing but a vox for my troop level command squads. I just hide them behind the infantry I bought them with and feed orders to em.

outflanking PL won me a capture and control game. i like them. PL has worked well for me

I buy sniper rifles for my platoon command, so they can stay safely tucked behind the lines and still fire, while feeding orders. It works out ok most of the time, and the upgrades are only 5 points apiece.

The Angry Commissar wrote:outflanking PL won me a capture and control game. i like them. PL has worked well for me

fantastic, but is it safe to assume the PL squad was a support unit, not the core of your troops?

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:I buy sniper rifles for my platoon command, so they can stay safely tucked behind the lines and still fire, while feeding orders. It works out ok most of the time, and the upgrades are only 5 points apiece.

I do the exact same thing for my mech guard, except they're in a chimera with 4 grenade launchers; 7 S6 shots from a moving vehicle while yelling at their foot-slogging babysitters to move move move or FRFSRF? Hilarious. (and not terrible anti-transport for 105 pts that scores and packs a HF)

freddieyu1 wrote:

The Angry Commissar wrote:outflanking PL won me a capture and control game. i like them. PL has worked well for me

fantastic, but is it safe to assume the PL squad was a support unit, not the core of your troops?

i run a vets list with three squads as the core of my army. i guess you could say they are support unit because i only ever run 1 squad of them their ONLY job is to outflank to grab objectives and thanks to the reroll that my astropath gives me, its easy. so yes i think PL are useful but i would only ever take 1 of them in a game. they are just so useful depite not knowing what their skill will be. it probably helped that i attached the primaris psyker to them (which most people dont seem to like except for me) to give them a bigger punch and my Demolisher was right there to sweeten the the deal (also outflanked because of creed's rule but didnt do much except look scary.) PL by themselves prolly arent very good but if can use them in just the right way...

Uhh i think if you attach an IC to them they lose the scout rule....and thus cannot outflank....

Unless you have creed.

Yup, but he assigned the outflank to the demolisher I believe....

ok. well the Primaris didnt get to fire a shot. lol he just sat on the objective with the PL

ach so...

so.... it was an honest mistake that didnt affect the game at all