Yes, I am sure it has been discussed before but lets talk about it again! Myself for some reason even in 1500 Point games do not like taking less than 4 or 5 units of troops. I always take the max 6 in 2000 Points if possible. I am actually building up a 1500 Ork Trukk list and am not sure weither to have 6 Trukk Mobs or 4 and Lootahs.

What about you DakkaDakka? What kind of Troop/Point Ratio do you have?

Normally its around 3-4 in the standard 1500-2000 point games I play, however that is deathwing so points are rarther stretched as it is.
For my group the average is around 2 per 1000 points with the exception of the space marine player who has 3-4 at 1500 (thats his max)

Really I wish I could take more, however the points always escape me.

for space marines, I take 1 tactical squad in a rhino per 500 points. (I don't play smaller than 1000 pts)

Horst wrote:for space marines, I take 1 tactical squad in a rhino per 500 points.

Same for me.

Troops are the mainstay of my army in every game. I take as many as is reasonable without weakening my other choices, so I have at least 4 at 1,500 pts.

1 per 500. Except if I play a Pedro list where Ill take 2 scouts and 2 Sternguard.

With my 1750 Ork army, I take 5 troops. 4 squads of 30 boys and 1 squad of 29 grots.
With my 1500 Marine Bike army, I take 4 troops -- all bike squads and combat squad them for objective missions.

When I face people who only play 2 troop choices in a 1500 point objective game, I focus fire on the troops and greatly increase my odds of winning the game.

1 per 750 here

and they are usually set up like this
1st HQ Ven dred
1st Troop Grey Hunters
2nd HQ Killy Battle Leader
2nd Troop Powerfisty Blood Claws
3rd HQ Killy Battle Leader
3rd Troop Powerfisty Blood Claws

In my orks I take all 6. 2 Trukka mobs, 3 shoota mobs and 1 grots mob.

Demogerg wrote:1 per 750 here

and they are usually set up like this
1st HQ Ven dred
1st Troop Grey Hunters
2nd HQ Killy Battle Leader
2nd Troop Powerfisty Blood Claws
3rd HQ Killy Battle Leader
3rd Troop Powerfisty Blood Claws

A Battle leader? I I normally have a Ven Dread as my First HQ then have either a Rune Priest with a Drop Pod Grey Hunter Squad or a Wolf priest with a Drop Pod Blood Claw Squad or Blood Claws in a LRC. Never saw the use of Battle Leaders outside 4AC WGT Killydeathmaim.

CSM player, so troops are expensive, but a real strength. I fill out 3 troops choices first - make them solid, strong, and usually special purpose. Always a 1ksons - (occasionally a squad of 18 of these walking down the map is great fun), normally 10 zerkers, and then its a toss up between all round Vanilla CSMs or Plauge marines (PMs are winning at the moment).

I then fill out the rest of the army, and occasionally go back to add 2 or 3 smaller, special purpose units. These are almost always Vanilla CSMs and/or lesser daemons.

As mine are both very effective and fragile (dark eldar) I generally try to take at least 5 (4 are the bare minimum).

Starting from 1500:
Minimum is three.
At 2000:
Minimum is four.

My 7 Cents.

1.5K I go for three usually, at 2K I take 4

For orks I always try and do at least 4 truck boyz units for my Mech Ork list even in a 1000 pnt game. I also usually field 1 warboss in addition to my KFF Mek so I'll have a truck or BW of nobz (depending on my remaining pnts) as a troop choice. Then I start thinking about toys.

I take as many troops as is feasible for me to take. not too many, gotta have some heavy support in my armies. usually one or two per 500pts, plus whatever else will fit.

1 troops per 500 pts, roughly. I play SoB.

I usually aim for 1 for every 500 points or part thereof. If my Eldar could squeeze in a 5th though, they would.

Eldar: 2, sometimes a third at 2000+
Space Marines: 3
Daemons: 6
Chaos Space Marines: Usually about 5-6, though I have taken as many as 9

It depends on my Army:
Eldar, I run 3 at 1500-1750, 4 at 1850-2k
Dualwing, I run almost pure troops, minus my HQs
Orks, minimum 4 at 1500...usually more

Gwar! wrote:

Demogerg wrote:1 per 750 here

and they are usually set up like this
1st HQ Ven dred
1st Troop Grey Hunters
2nd HQ Killy Battle Leader
2nd Troop Powerfisty Blood Claws
3rd HQ Killy Battle Leader
3rd Troop Powerfisty Blood Claws

A Battle leader? I I normally have a Ven Dread as my First HQ then have either a Rune Priest with a Drop Pod Grey Hunter Squad or a Wolf priest with a Drop Pod Blood Claw Squad or Blood Claws in a LRC. Never saw the use of Battle Leaders outside 4AC WGT Killydeathmaim.

Yea, run Battle leaders cheap, Frostblade, Stormshield nothing else. they rock face, WS5 S5 I5 with 5 power weapon attacks.
11 blood claws with 3 power fists, Battle leader with FB/SS, Pack Leader with Thunderhammer in a LRC with Extra armor+MM
605 points of awesomesmashface
do that X2 and use the rest of the points to play around with the GH squad, Ven Dread, Wolf Scouts, etc.

Also, I do not own any Drop Pods, and I dont like rhinos because you cant move, disembark, then assault with them.

I think it depends greatly on which army you're playing, and by extension how good the troops choices are.

With my armies, for example:

IG: 3 in 2k pts
Chaos: 4-5 in 2k pts
Orks: 6 in 2k pts
Eldar: 2 in 2k pts

IG and Eldar have the transports and speed to protect small numbers of troops while the more specialized selections KILL DEATH MAIM.

Chaos and Orks have powerful enough basic troops to not lose out significantly by taking lots of them.

My 2 cents.

I normally take six. i play tau and nids. I normally play games 1850-2200

Really depends on what you are playing. I take enough troops for them to do what they are suppose to do. Objective capturing is secondary imo.

If your army sucks because you have a ton of bad troops, then you aren't going to win anyways.

I take troops for what they are in each list.
Tau - 1 firewarrior squad (cause you have to)
2 kroot squads for utility

Space Marines- depends on the army, usually 2 10x squads. They aren't great but they provide solid anti infantry fire. Any more than 3x squads up to 2k points is gimping your list usually.

Same thinking goes with most armies.

As far as orks, it doesn't really matter how many you take, your going to get beat by any decent army anyways.

Timmah wrote:As far as orks, it doesn't really matter how many you take, your going to get beat by any decent army anyways.

Lolwut? Orks are one of the best armies around atm.

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:As far as orks, it doesn't really matter how many you take, your going to get beat by any decent army anyways.

Lolwut? Orks are one of the best armies around atm.

Well at least you are good with rules Gwar!.

*rolls around in the inflamatory goodness*

Im gonna go for 2-3 @ 1500pts for my imperial guard. But that could scale from 20 men to easily over 300men. Its subjective.

As a rule of thumb at 1500pt, I take three.. If I find myself two troop choices down mid-game I play to protect the third otherwise its buisness as usual.

I just think that troops should contribute as much to my army as any other unit. They should not just be objective takers.

(Fire warriors are an exception because 1 squad is forced on you)

4+ troop choices aren't going to help you if you get tabled.

Timmah wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:As far as orks, it doesn't really matter how many you take, your going to get beat by any decent army anyways.

Lolwut? Orks are one of the best armies around atm.

Well at least you are good with rules Gwar!.

Huh? Since when did KFF meks, 30 Stron Boyz, Nob Bikers and Lootas suddenly become crap?

with my two armies I have to play them completely different......

Witchhunters......
.- I never take less than 3 troops as the basic sister is better then most units in the list

Eldar
- I never take more than 3 unless I am doing a spam list, as my troops are increadably weak until an aspect squad clears a path for them first.

Don't feed into Timmah Gwar!

He's been on an irrational anti-ork crusade for about a month now. I think he just doesn't know how to use them effectively, and is upset that he loses so much with them.

See the "help with orks" thread in the tactics forum.

I usually take 3-4 in 1850 points, although that goes right up to 6 with Orks.

phillosmaster wrote:Don't feed into Timmah Gwar!

He's been on an irrational anti-ork crusade for about a month now. I think he just doesn't know how to use them effectively, and is upset that he loses so much with them.

See the "help with orks" thread in the tactics forum.

Lol 1 day = a month

anyways orks are highly subject to personal opinion and you either think they are tier 1 or tier 3.

Anyways it was just a little joke thrown in, not a challenge.

That ork 3rd tier stuff started like a month ago.

And I know you were joking. I didn't think Gwar! knew though.

The ork stuff started a lot more than a month ago, and I sure didn't start it.

phillosmaster wrote:That ork 3rd tier stuff started like a month ago.

And I know you were joking. I didn't think Gwar! knew though.

No, I didn't, because Orks are about as Teir 3 as The Sun is made from Marmite.

Huh really? I did not know the sun was made from Marmite.

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:As far as orks, it doesn't really matter how many you take, your going to get beat by any decent army anyways.

Lolwut? Orks are one of the best armies around atm.

Well at least you are good with rules Gwar!.

Huh? Since when did KFF meks, 30 Stron Boyz, Nob Bikers and Lootas suddenly become crap?

When people realised that Orks are terrified of AV14 and terminators. Cue Land Raiders.

With Necrons
Only 2 under 1750
3 Between 1750 & 2000
4 in games over 2000

If I take more than this, it tends to limit my firepower.
But Necrons are 'special' case.

Pika_power wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:As far as orks, it doesn't really matter how many you take, your going to get beat by any decent army anyways.

Lolwut? Orks are one of the best armies around atm.

Well at least you are good with rules Gwar!.

Huh? Since when did KFF meks, 30 Stron Boyz, Nob Bikers and Lootas suddenly become crap?

When people realised that Orks are terrified of AV14 and terminators. Cue Land Raiders.

What ork player is ever scared of termies? Mass volume of attacks beats any 2+ save unit. Give me my thirty boyz against 10 termies any day. Or kan walls with KMBs if you're feeling frisky.

AV14 is.....AV 14, its a problem, every codex has weaknesses.

indigo_jones wrote:

Pika_power wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:As far as orks, it doesn't really matter how many you take, your going to get beat by any decent army anyways.

Lolwut? Orks are one of the best armies around atm.

Well at least you are good with rules Gwar!.

Huh? Since when did KFF meks, 30 Stron Boyz, Nob Bikers and Lootas suddenly become crap?

When people realised that Orks are terrified of AV14 and terminators. Cue Land Raiders.

What ork player is ever scared of termies? Mass volume of attacks beats any 2+ save unit. Give me my thirty boyz against 10 termies any day. Or kan walls with KMBs if you're feeling frisky.

AV14 is.....AV 14, its a problem, every codex has weaknesses.

Wheeeee Pyramid! And anyway aren't Nobz and Warbosses for Dealing with AV 14?

Exactly

Remember when you are math hammering that orks get +1 str on the charge. Also tankbustas are good but not everyone follows me down that path.

We need to be careful though this topic often quickly degenerates into a flame war.

Flamewar? No WAI, esp. with Gwar here to steer us on course.

Just look at the title, isn't that an indiciation we would end up like this?

My 7 Cents.

Nobz and Warbosses can deal with AV14, but not AV14 that moves 7" and they need 6's to hit. Kan/Dred wall is much more effective, especially with KFF support.

But yeah, versus a Vulkan marines sort of setup Orks are pretty much autofail.

In a 1500 point game I tend to be very troop heavy: 3 mechvet squads and a platoon that has multiple squads and heavy weapon squads. I probably need to change that, however, because I have a problem dislodging higher AV units off objectives.

At the risk of being on-topic...

I like 4-5 Trukkboy squads and 30 grots. Good for screening lootas and holding your own objective.

At 1500, I have usually 2 infantry platoons, with usually 3 infantry platoons each. That number goes up to 3 squads with 4 platoons each when I really feel like it.

I actually realized a while back that I had started using the golden ratio for the amount of troops I have; now I use it all the time because it seems to work perfectly for my mounted orks.

Take the total points for the army and divide it by 1.618 this is the amount I spend on my troops choices plus their transport. So in a 2000 pt army I have about 1236 points worth of troops.

Dark Angels - I usually take 4 troops at 1750-1850 and it doesn't matter if I'm playing Deathwing or Green Marines.
Tyranid - Almost always have all 6. I use lots of gaunts so it's easy to take all the slots.
Tau - Typically 3: 2 FW, 1 Kroot
Iyanden - I do take the 10 wraithguard troop unit as I wouldn't consider my army Iyanden if I didn't so that usually only leaves points for 1 or 2 more troops.

Six full platoons of death korps, obviously. (not)

This tends to bug me alot
Due to playing a mix of BA and ork im allways struggling on troop choices.

With orks you can throw 1,000 points into troops and not only have a rather large army, but also have enough points left to field alot moer to add some impact.
With BA the unit cost on troops seems insane compared to orks, so i allways seem to take more than i actually need.

Orks - allways take 5 troop choices (maybe a 6th comprise dof gretchin)
BA - allways take 3-4 units (once again, maybe another unit of scouts)

I'm going to prove myself the daring fellow and go against everyone's statements of "3-4!" with the following

TWO

Now, bear in mind I'm talking about 2 units of 12 plaguebearers, unless I'm playing 2000+ then there's 3 of 10. I lose both squads in maybe 1 in 10 or so games, usually against orks when I let them charge full 30 boy mobs into them and they all attack on the charge.

With my guard, it's usually just 2, until I hit about 2000 (then it's 3 mech vets and a platoon, usually); a vet squad and a platoon of PCS/infantry/infantry/infantry. Chimera the vets and the PCS, give the guardsmen a flamer and a meltabomb to keep them from getting chased off the board by empty rhinos, and walk them in front of your demolishers/executioners. Objective taking/keeping hilarity ensues.

I agree with sourclams... I think the number of troops you take hinges on the army/race you play. I primarily play Blood Angels and I will field 3 troops at 1850 points or 4 troops at 2500 points... at 2000 points I will field 3 troops as this is an extension of my 1850 point list so I use the additional 150 points to take something along the lines of a cheap HS unit such as a Baal predator or some attack bikes (FA). These levels have always worked out well for me so far.

G

As a Daemons player, I bring as many as I can, usually limiting at 5; This is usually at 1000 points to 1500 though. As a Grey Knights player, let's just say I take whatever I can fit in.

I've played a lot of armies and it really does depend on what you want to do.

IG : 3 @ 1,000 ; 4 @ 1,500; 6 @ 2,000+

Their Vets in Chimeras are deadly and don't subtract from firepower so I always like to load up.

Space Marines: 2 @ 1,000; 3 @ 1,500+

I find SM troops a bit weak for their cost to be honest.

Nids: 2 @ 500+

WoN Gaunts in small groups are win in all cases, I can spend a total of 128 points on troops in a 2,500 point game and still compete.

indigo_jones wrote:

Pika_power wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:As far as orks, it doesn't really matter how many you take, your going to get beat by any decent army anyways.

Lolwut? Orks are one of the best armies around atm.

Well at least you are good with rules Gwar!.

Huh? Since when did KFF meks, 30 Stron Boyz, Nob Bikers and Lootas suddenly become crap?

When people realised that Orks are terrified of AV14 and terminators. Cue Land Raiders.

What ork player is ever scared of termies? Mass volume of attacks beats any 2+ save unit. Give me my thirty boyz against 10 termies any day. Or kan walls with KMBs if you're feeling frisky.

AV14 is.....AV 14, its a problem, every codex has weaknesses.

Although I am one of the people who tend to think that the ork codex can produce some tier 1 lists I'd take 10 assault termies against 30 ork boys any day.

To get back on topic though; I use 3 tac. squads in razorbacks or rhinos at 1850, or 3 squads of berzerkers in LRs at the same pts. level.

Gwar! wrote:

indigo_jones wrote:

Pika_power wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:As far as orks, it doesn't really matter how many you take, your going to get beat by any decent army anyways.

Lolwut? Orks are one of the best armies around atm.

Well at least you are good with rules Gwar!.

Huh? Since when did KFF meks, 30 Stron Boyz, Nob Bikers and Lootas suddenly become crap?

When people realised that Orks are terrified of AV14 and terminators. Cue Land Raiders.

What ork player is ever scared of termies? Mass volume of attacks beats any 2+ save unit. Give me my thirty boyz against 10 termies any day. Or kan walls with KMBs if you're feeling frisky.

AV14 is.....AV 14, its a problem, every codex has weaknesses.

Wheeeee Pyramid! And anyway aren't Nobz and Warbosses for Dealing with AV 14?

I just wanted to elongate the pyramid, tbh.

And hopefully annoy Nurglitch.

Anywaaaaay, 10 TH/SS Termies aren't in ANY way afraid of 30 Orks, even assuming (lols) the Orks get to charge. Since the Ork player, presumably, isn't Fail, the Boyz have Shootas. So (29*3A=) 87 Attacks, half of which hit (44, being kind) half wound (22) saves are failed on a 1, so 1/6 = 4, being really, really kind. Nob hits with 4 A (2 hit, 2 wound, one dies, after 3+ Invul.) Orks kill 5 total. On the charge. 6 TH/SS guys strike back, with 12 A = 6 hit= 5 wound = 5 kills = drawn combat. IF we give the Orks the benefit of the doubt, AND assume all 30 get into the combat. Next round, too many Orks in B2B for any supporting Ork units (though SM turn anyway) - assuming no Marines join in, the Orks can expect to kill 1, from the Nob AND Boyz put together, 4 TH/SS guys kill approx 4, 3 more Orks die to Fearless wounds...the Orks are stuck, and won't win. that also didn't assume Vulkan in the list (which, obviously, he would be) - the Terminators would win.

Also,

ThatEdGuy wrote:I actually realized a while back that I had started using the golden ratio for the amount of troops I have; now I use it all the time because it seems to work perfectly for my mounted orks.

Take the total points for the army and divide it by 1.618 this is the amount I spend on my troops choices plus their transport. So in a 2000 pt army I have about 1236 points worth of troops.

I see no purpose to the formula, when it gives no indication as to how many choices that is. Some armies can easily shell out 400 points on a single Troops. Stupid, yes - but like I say all the time, points breakdown is a 2nd Ed piece of bollocks that's thankfully gone, replaced with the FoC which makes far more sense, and is more fun for players who don't play BAs.

Pika_power wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Huh? Since when did KFF meks, 30 Stron Boyz, Nob Bikers and Lootas suddenly become crap?

When people realised that Orks are terrified of AV14 and terminators. Cue Land Raiders.

Yeah... terrified of Terminators if by terrified you mean "tickled". I'm always happy when I see Land Raiders since that means there's another 15 Marines that are not on the table.

The last time I faced Terminators in a Land Raider it ended when my Battlewagon tank shocked his Terminators, two of them died to the Deff Rolla, they failed their Morale test and then broke for the board edge. When the Skorchas from the Nobs hit him and two more died he just gave up.

Yep, that one "terrified" me.

Oh and I pretty much always max out Troops when I play Orks. A Grot mob only costs 40 points.

^ TGG, please see Maths in my post. Arguing with a lucky instance against a player who shouldn't have allowed that to happen < Maths.

On the Ork issue Burnas in Battle Wagon> SS/TT Termies in Land Raider.

Anywaaaaay, 10 TH/SS Termies aren't in ANY way afraid of 30 Orks, even assuming (lols) the Orks get to charge. Since the Ork player, presumably, isn't Fail, the Boyz have Shootas. So (29*3A=) 87 Attacks, half of which hit (44, being kind) half wound (22) saves are failed on a 1, so 1/6 = 4, being really, really kind. Nob hits with 4 A (2 hit, 2 wound, one dies, after 3+ Invul.) Orks kill 5 total. On the charge. 6 TH/SS guys strike back, with 12 A = 6 hit= 5 wound = 5 kills = drawn combat. IF we give the Orks the benefit of the doubt, AND assume all 30 get into the combat. Next round, too many Orks in B2B for any supporting Ork units (though SM turn anyway) - assuming no Marines join in, the Orks can expect to kill 1, from the Nob AND Boyz put together, 4 TH/SS guys kill approx 4, 3 more Orks die to Fearless wounds...the Orks are stuck, and won't win. that also didn't assume Vulkan in the list (which, obviously, he would be) - the Terminators would win.

You're also forgetting the shooting attacks before the charge. That would be 60 shots, 20 hits, 1.66 dead Termies. The rest of your math is fine so we get a total of 6.163 kills for the Orks, 4.5 in CC so we'll say 4. That is worth 240 points on average. That Ork mob is only worth 220 points if you kill it all.

Now the 4 remaining termies hit back killing 3.33 Orks. They lose, but being marines they stay in combat.

Orks attack again killing 1.43 with regular boys and the warboss kills 0.625. The Termies attack again and kill 2.5 boys this time. Orks lose this time and lose an ork to no retreat.

Orks attack again killing 1.222 termies, and the warboss once again kills 0.625. The lone remaining Termie kills 0.833 orks before dying.

Orks leave combat with a Nob and 21 boys left. Orks win.

Chaos 1-2k: 3

Though I generally have 2 more squads of infantry. Infantry with a few special guns in transports seems to be the best way to run most armies now.

Warboss?!?

Also, the guy killed by the PK gets to strike.

The mob I actually assumed to have a Bosspole and 3 Rokkits.

Also, round 2 there, the Orks killed an overall 2.055, Termies killed 2.5. Termies didn't lose then.

Bear in mind though, the Orks would be very unlikely to get the charge on TH/SS Terminators, and without the charge, can't do anything to them.

How are the Orks so disadvantaged in getting the charge? Deffrolla cracks the Land Raider, then the Orks jump in, it isn't such a hard case to see. Or Termies kill a squad and get counter charged.

Either way, that one ork lost to no retreat hardly makes a difference, and I did have the Termies and PK's attacking at the same time. Also, sorry typed warboss, but meant nob and used nob stats.

Yeah...that all hinges on you playing the whole "Deff Rolla affects vehicles" thing, which isn't exactly uncontroversial. Anyway there can't be 30 Boys inside a BW, the Termies could hide behind the Wreck/Crater and be out of the way, the BW will stop unless the LR explodes, thus blocking the charge, and it's likely they won't be able to charge out of it anyway, unless it's open-topped, in which case it'll probably blow up too!

It also assumes no Land Speeder to get in the way, with a MM. lol

You do agree that the Orks will certainly lose if they don't charge, yes?

Not entirely, while the unit may die, they have the potential to kill an equal number of points in your army.

Also what about Burna Boyz in a Battle Wagon versus SS/TT Termies in a Land Raider. Not even in direct competition but in terms of which will kill more in an average game.

Norade wrote:Also what about Burna Boyz in a Battle Wagon versus SS/TT Termies in a Land Raider. Not even in direct competition but in terms of which will kill more in an average game.

If you are lucky and assume that the Template can hit 4 Termies, that results in 60 Hits, 30 Wounds, 25 Passed Saves, 5 Failed Saves.

Unless, ofc, they're still in the LR, in which case they can literally do f all, except wait to die.

or kill them with your tankbustas

Kill a Land Raider with Tankbustas? Really?

why not?

Shooting gives me 12 str 8 attacks (from the rokkits) and 3 str 8 attacks that hit on +2 (if you release all 3 squigs), followed by a charging assault of 6 Str 10 attacks (from tank hammers), 4 str 9 attacks (from nob PK) and 12 str 2D6+6 attacks (from the boyz using their tank busta bombs).

I've never really tried to assault a LR in this fasion in a real game, but it's certainly better than just sitting there crying about it.

Well, if you have 15 TBs shooting, you get 5 hits, which isn't enough to average one Glance. You can't Penetrate, so you can't destroy it anyway. If in CC, then it will have moved at least 1", so you hit on 4+ AT BEST. They need to use the Grenades to do anything, so 7.5 hits...

These hits DO have a 56% chance of being a Pen, so you have a decent chance to destroy the vehicle, but you won't surround, so you get charged. If it moved over 6" though, which is highly likely if Tankbustas were within the danger zone, then your 15 guys hit on 6s, with one attack each... :( Chance of destruction on (probably) one Pen roll, slim.

I really think we have to make some assumptions here:

Land Raider is always going to move 7"+, because the Marine player isn't a moron and realizes that this is a huge debuff to his opponent's CC-centric army.

Orks, unless you're running a Grot Kannon line (and nobody does), can't kill Raiders with shooting (Rokkits don't cut it, sorry) so they're forced to attempt in the assault.

Whether they succeed or fail, it's impossible to charge the unit inside the assaulted transport so they're arguably never going to get the charge, unless it's on a later turn.

The math for 30 Shoota Boyz charging Assault Terminators is decently in their favor, but it's an unrealistic scenario. You've got to assume they're receiving the charge because that's how it's going to be 9/10 times.

As chaos, depends. I normally try and run 4 troops (max) most games, depending on what I wanna play. Fluffy lists is always 4 squads. Normal lists, I try and aim for 6 at 2500+. I don't really have a points ratio, tho I should really make one

For Nids, I try and minimize troop choices by taking massive numbers. I always run my gaunts 20-30 strong per squad. If I run genestealers is 8-12 a squad. I never run more than 4-5 troop choices with nids because normally I just focus on running my foe off the board (to great effect might I add )

a fully decked out tankbusta squad is about 250-270 pnts. A LR is about 250 pnts right? That seems like an even trade if the termies have to evac and kill the bustas. They are now out of the LR and I can charge them with something else.

I think I'd go so far as to say that only Nob Bikes and Burna Boyz have ANY realistic hope in CC against TH/SS...and not even that much if they don't charge. Obviously Warbosses can hold their own, but they're one model.

I still think I'm ahead here. If my tankbustas manage to kill the LR and uproot the termies the termies then assault the bustas who still have PKs and tank hammers. They should do some small damage to the termies. If I was smart I was banking on this happening and I moved such that something with decent armor penetration was in the area to assault the Termies next like truck nobs, nob bikers, mega nobs, a full burna wagon, a warboss, KMB kans. Hopefully the tankbustas did enough to give me the edge, and I should get the charge since the termies were busy killing my bustas. Also my BW the bustas rode in probably had a deff roller on it since that's how I roll. That's D6 str 10 attacks. If they try for death or glory I gets another D6 str 10 attacks.

Though if it was only one LR/termie squad I might try and ignore it and kill other stuff and take objectives. It seems like too much attention for one unit.

out of curiosity 10 TH/SS charge 29 Orcs, nob PK, Bosspole, 29 Ork Boys with 2 attacks hitting 1/2 and wounding 1/3 with 1/6 unsaved= 1.6, Nob with 3 attacks hitting 1/2 wounding 1/6 and 1/3 saved=.41 we will be nice and say that the Ork Boys killed both

8 Termis strike back 10 dead

orks loose by 8, loose another 7 so orks down to 13

next round 1 termi dies and remaining 7 kill 6 boyz, orks loose by 5 now down to ld 2 with modifiers and run never to return.

so 3 dead termies and 23 dead orks, plus they are running away.

as for the original post... completely depends with necron i run two squads of 10 at 1500 otherwise you are asking to be phased out (counter intuitive i know but having squads of warriors is just asking for a CC squad to sweep them and then you are down 10 necrons)

So 10 footslogging assault termies are assumed to get the charge vs 30 ork boyz, that probably have ghazgull since it is a horde army. Sorry, orks will be getting the charge if the termies aren't in a land raider. This comparison is also unfair, as it is ~200 points of orks vs 400 points of terminators.

If you put them in a Land Raider you're up to 650 points versus 250 at most. However the point was that a poster said he would rather have 30 Boyz than 10 Termies, and I agree with that. One can hold objectives, and can beat the other under the right circumstances and it comes at just over half the points. 5 SS/TT Termies, versus 29 Boyz with PK Nob is even more laughable.

The 5 Termies charge the Ork mob. The Ork Boyz hit for 1.61 kills and the nob hits for 0.625 for a total of 2.235 dead Termies. The Termies hit for 3.33 kills, a win, but the Orks only lost by 1 this time.

Next round the Orks hit back inflicting 1.388 deaths with the Boyz, and 0.625 kills with the Nob. The 2 Termies left after last round and the Boyz attacks, hit back for 1.66 deaths and the round is a draw on average.

Now the Orks attack the lone Termie and he goes down to the Boyz without even needing the PK. The Orks win on the SM players turn and go on to charge something else having lost only 6 Boyz on average.

Well, to be fair, most of the time it's going to be 6 termies + some shooting first.

But yeah, at equal points values Boyz > Terminators.

I take just three to four in games up to 2000 pts for my Eldar, CSM or SM armies.
For Dark Eldar, you need to max out troops.

Elessar wrote:Well, if you have 15 TBs shooting, you get 5 hits, which isn't enough to average one Glance. You can't Penetrate, so you can't destroy it anyway. If in CC, then it will have moved at least 1", so you hit on 4+ AT BEST. They need to use the Grenades to do anything, so 7.5 hits...

These hits DO have a 56% chance of being a Pen, so you have a decent chance to destroy the vehicle, but you won't surround, so you get charged. If it moved over 6" though, which is highly likely if Tankbustas were within the danger zone, then your 15 guys hit on 6s, with one attack each... :( Chance of destruction on (probably) one Pen roll, slim.

15 at +4 to hit is 7.5 hits average, but I added tank hammers and PK to get 22 attacks on the charge. That should be 22 at +4 to hit is 11 hits. On +6 to hit that would be 22 attacks getting on average 3.6 hits on average...and if I only used grenades for 15 attacks its 1/6*15 or 2.5 hits. That combine with the possible glancing hits from shooting should screw with the LR pretty bad(the squigs hit on a 2+ if I'm crazy enough to use them). Immobilizing and destroying all the LR's weapons is effectively destroying it. We can then drive away and ignore it. The termies now have to pile out to do anything and on foot I'll probably get the charge with my mech ork units or ghaz waagh footsloggers.

*appended*

well the tankbustas can move away, but they will probably still try and shoot the LR unless some other armor is in range. Wasted shooting... darn glory hog rule.

I usually take four Tactical Squads in 2,000 point games.

4 in 1750 points. Might be worth turing it into a poll somehow

I take 5 squads of CSM. 10 man upgrades all round plus HQ, thats how i like my Chaos.

Tyranids I also take 5, but they are more varied.

For my Tau I usually take 3 Troops, 12 guys in a 'fish and 2x 6 Tau squads for random fire support and garrison duty. My main problem with them is that they are a tad fragile and without special weapons to bump up the uberkillyness

Guard wise I have 4 troops choices, although this does come out as 7 actual squads. Again, 2 squads of mech vets, a platoon for garrison duty and a penal legion squad for flank defence.

A Land Raider is more than big enough to cover the objective, and prevent the Boyz controlling it. If it's a Crusader, several Orks die before the charge, if a Redeemer, and it somehow reaches you, even more die.

Also, if you have Tank Hammers and a PK, your shooting is affected so much that you now average ZERO Glances, still.

Tankbustas are only any good against AV14 in CC.

Surely we can all agree on this point.

I regularly field 3 broods of gaunts without number, and try to go second.

If I add another brood, 90% of the time it is genestealers, but it is rare, and tends to be in rather large games.

Without number lets Tyranid troops have some use, as genestealers are killed about as easily as gaunts, or moreso, depending on whether they accidentally kill a unit on the assault.
(Except that one time 6 gaunts stood for two game turns in CC with a venerable dread. . . considering that, GSs die easier than gaunts - and worse, they stay dead)

Elessar wrote:A Land Raider is more than big enough to cover the objective, and prevent the Boyz controlling it. If it's a Crusader, several Orks die before the charge, if a Redeemer, and it somehow reaches you, even more die.

Also, if you have Tank Hammers and a PK, your shooting is affected so much that you now average ZERO Glances, still.

Tankbustas are only any good against AV14 in CC.

Surely we can all agree on this point.

I'll agree with that. The shooting was really just a bonus on top of the CC. Also I'd like to point out that during shooting up to 3 models can release squigs instead of shooting rokkits. That means the 2 tank hammers and 1 PK could release squigs instead of firing rokkits, which make back on the lost rokkit attacks and is actually better than shooting rokkits since they hit on a 2+....though if I get a 1 they will most likely hit the BW the tankbustas rode in on

and agian this all assumes I'm not multicharging the LR with nobz and/or a warboss and/or some dreads, which I probably will considering the cost of a termie TH/SS LR unit. A warboss with PK and attack squig joined with the tankbustas alone improves my chances greatly.

Of course, but if a player has a LR of TH/SS (and any sense) then he also has at least 2 more of them. Chances are, you can't assault 3 LRs, and kill them all.

Especially since they're almost always going to move 6.1"+, so you hit on 6's. They can drive around releasing 3 MMs into the BWs, and piles of Bolter fire into the Boyz.

I wish I could just play this battle with you. It sounds like a good fight to me. With a multicharge I have a good chance of surrounding 1 LR which means insta dead termies and i can now focus on the other LRs. How many TH/SS Termie landraiders can you field in a 1500 point game practically?

Also if you are parking on objectives you aren't moving.

Et tu, Brute?

I hate playing 1500, I usually play 1750. that said, I think I can do 4 LRs in 1500, but they obvs won't all be TH/SS.

Well I hear a lot of people say that 1 per 500 pts is good for MEQ, though naturally this increases exponentially when fielding a horde. Can't really speak from experience here.

depends on the army.

At 1500
I'd ideally like to run 6 for my DE raider list.
For my other armies I try to always run at least 3 troops.

I find armies that run very short on troops are easy to take apart in 2 of 3 scenarios.

It looks like we've pretty conclusively shown that at most points levels boyz are better than termies as you can actually take them at all points levels. I think we can also show that in a 1500 point game LR's and termies are a liability even though you can fit them into a list.

This list is obviously an extreme, but it proves a point about balance.

HQ:
-Captain - 100pts.

Troops:
-Scouts x5 - 75pts.
-Scouts x5 - 75pts.

Elites:
-SS/TT Termies x5 = 200pts.
--Land Raider - 250pts.

Heavy Support:
-Land Raider - 250pts.
-Land Raider - 250pts.
-Land Raider - 250pts.

Wargear/Upgrades: 50pts.

Those points mostly go into MMs on the LRs.

I'd rather use 3 LRCs, with EA and MM, and 12 TH/SS, with 2x5 Scouts with Sniper Rifles.

Elessar wrote:Those points mostly go into MMs on the LRs.

I'd rather use 3 LRCs, with EA and MM, and 12 TH/SS, with 2x5 Scouts with Sniper Rifles.

Then my Orks just eat your scouts

Not if they outflank...neither of us will see them till Turn 4, and by then you're distracted, and one of us has lost anyway...!

I run guard normally with 3+platoons in 2000points
with my mariens 2+ in 2000
and with my crons 4+ always

At 1850 I use 5, and 2500 I use 6. Below that I'm pretty much solid at 4 [I don't like to play below 1500].

I play Emperor's Children, btw. Generally 2 squads of Noisemarines, work up to three squads of special weapon CSMs, then add the 3rd noisemarine squad as the 6th troops choice in larger games.

If I was going to focus my anti LR list on my previous tankbusta multi charge strategy I could run a list like this:

HQ

2 warbosses + PK + attack Squig about 105 pts each

Elites

2 units of Tankbustas 3 bomb Squigs, 2 tank hammers, PK nob with bosspole about 260 pts each

Troops

4 units of slugga boyz + nob + PK + bosspole + dedicated Truck about 150 pts each

Heavy

2 Battlewagons naked for the tankbustas 90 pts each

That should be enough to launch 2 definite LR multicharges with a good chance to completely surround.

At 1750 I'd clean the list and add a burna wagon or a small nobz unit kitted out with pain boy in a truck. I'd like to take deff rollers to tankshock the scouts if I see them. I'll have to run the numbers when I'm in front of my codex.

I think we've done a pretty good job of staying off topic for so long. BTW I still think you should always have 4 truck boyz squads minimum for orks, and I usually field a nobz unit as troops if I'm anywhere near 1500 pts and above though this list is compromising that strategy since 2 tankbusta wagons is pretty expensive.

I don't see why people have problems with LR with orks. A warboss or two in trukks with boarding planks can take care of LR's pretty darn easily.

Assuming a 1500 pt army, for the IG I take 3-4 troops choices, which boils down to 7-8 units which can actually hold or claim objectives.....

For the eldar, I take at least 5 troop choices....

Marines 3, which can split into combat squads..

Necrons? No choice, 2-3 only..too damn expensive to get more....

For my SOB, I typically theoryhammer 4 troops if I want to do pure mech, or five if I want 4 rhino-riding choices and one footslogger to park on an objective, at 1750.

sourclams wrote:Orks, unless you're running a Grot Kannon line (and nobody does), can't kill Raiders with shooting (Rokkits don't cut it, sorry) so they're forced to attempt in the assault..

How are kannons better than rokkits (aside from range).
In the previous codex they had rules for rolling extra dice to penetrate, but the new ones do not show anything of the like.

If they are better against vehicles than STR8 AP3, please let me know!

Thanks!

I generally use one per 500 points, but depending on who/what I am playing I can sometimes get away with using less.

My personal solution for LR spam is BW spam with planks and grabbin klaws. If we each field 4 of our respective spam tanks then I should manage to catch and grab at least 1-2 LRs and then it's easy PK attacks for (hopefully) a warboss or a tank hammer. If I grab a LR and you hop out with the termies to nuke the BW then I get the countercharge and have a good shot at winning.

Same goes for my trukk boys, boarding planks are really good for cuddling up to LRs and getting PK attacks without exposing the troops inside.

MrDrumMachine wrote:My personal solution for LR spam is BW spam with planks and grabbin klaws. If we each field 4 of our respective spam tanks then I should manage to catch and grab at least 1-2 LRs and then it's easy PK attacks for (hopefully) a warboss or a tank hammer. If I grab a LR and you hop out with the termies to nuke the BW then I get the countercharge and have a good shot at winning.

Same goes for my trukk boys, boarding planks are really good for cuddling up to LRs and getting PK attacks without exposing the troops inside.

I agree about the grabba claw, PK, boarding plank take down. My list was just a follow on to my discussion on how a tankbusta charge could still be effective. More effective of course if I put grabba claws on the BWs, which I'd probably do if I tried to play that list.

labmouse42 wrote:

sourclams wrote:Orks, unless you're running a Grot Kannon line (and nobody does), can't kill Raiders with shooting (Rokkits don't cut it, sorry) so they're forced to attempt in the assault..

How are kannons better than rokkits (aside from range).
In the previous codex they had rules for rolling extra dice to penetrate, but the new ones do not show anything of the like.

If they are better against vehicles than STR8 AP3, please let me know!

Thanks!

Sorry, Zzap Guns, not Kannons.

Tau Player here.

1000

x2 Firewarriors

1500

x1 Firewarrior

x1 Kroot "horde" or x1 Firewarrior squad. Depending who I'm playing.

Orks: 6 Units (4 boys, 1 ard boys, 1 nobs)

IG: 4-8 Units (1-5 infantry squads, 2 veterans, 1 command)

Spellbound wrote:I don't see why people have problems with LR with orks. A warboss or two in trukks with boarding planks can take care of LR's pretty darn easily.

I don't know what country or indeed world you live in, but around here Ork Trukks don't reach enemy lines, nevermind survive long enough to CC anything.

When playing orks at 2k & 1.5k, all 6 (i like my horde)

Dark eldar, 4 for a 1k game (only have around 28ish warriors and 3 raiders)