I know that Gork and Mork are the Ork "gods". But were they really born out the warp? I think that they were just two of the strongest orks ever whos' power was greatly exagerrated.

What do you guys think?

Gork and Mork arse real
where you think us Orks came from?

Gork and Mork are real because Orks believe in them, meaning if they weren't real before, they are now.

Gork and Mork are 'real' in the sense that they are massively powerful Warp Entities, much like the Chaos Gods. Gork and Mork, however, shun the worship of daemons and lesser warp entities, so you'll never see any daemons available to orks. In fact, Gork and Mork are the most powerful of the entities within the warp, because they are the avatars of all of orkdom in the warp. The chaos gods, while powerful, are merely a reflection of one part of the human (or eldar/other psychically attuned races) psyche. Gork and Mork are the avatars/reflections of every part of orkish life. In addition orks are arguably one of the most successful races in the galaxy, controlling planets pretty much everywhere. There are huge numbers of orks, which serves to further bolster Gork and Mork.

Well the Orks were created by the Old ones to counter the Necro threat like a million years ago.

Orks created these gods and are the most powerful warp beings.

Orkestra wrote:Gork and Mork are 'real' in the sense that they are massively powerful Warp Entities, much like the Chaos Gods. Gork and Mork, however, shun the worship of daemons and lesser warp entities, so you'll never see any daemons available to orks. In fact, Gork and Mork are the most powerful of the entities within the warp, because they are the avatars of all of orkdom in the warp. The chaos gods, while powerful, are merely a reflection of one part of the human (or eldar/other psychically attuned races) psyche. Gork and Mork are the avatars/reflections of every part of orkish life. In addition orks are arguably one of the most successful races in the galaxy, controlling planets pretty much everywhere. There are huge numbers of orks, which serves to further bolster Gork and Mork.

They also have a Vehicle combat game named after themselves XD

Metallifan wrote:

They also have a Vehicle combat game named after themselves XD

That's probably their greatest claim to fame. Which is much cooler than just kicking the Chaos Gods' butts every now and then.

Orkestra wrote:Gork and Mork are 'real' in the sense that they are massively powerful Warp Entities, much like the Chaos Gods. Gork and Mork, however, shun the worship of daemons and lesser warp entities, so you'll never see any daemons available to orks. In fact, Gork and Mork are the most powerful of the entities within the warp, because they are the avatars of all of orkdom in the warp. The chaos gods, while powerful, are merely a reflection of one part of the human (or eldar/other psychically attuned races) psyche. Gork and Mork are the avatars/reflections of every part of orkish life. In addition orks are arguably one of the most successful races in the galaxy, controlling planets pretty much everywhere. There are huge numbers of orks, which serves to further bolster Gork and Mork.

Orks only have one aspect of life. WAR.
But I'm saying were they real orks who got worshiped after they died until thier souls grew strong enough to become gods?

No they are gods created by the Orks. Can we make it any clearer?

It's a good question, but no. Gork and Mork were never real orks, just like Slaanesh wasn't any particular Eldar before the fall. They just came into being because of events in the physical universe.

Also, Orks don't 'worship' Gork and Mork per se. They just believe in them. Which is a pretty important difference.

@Lord-Loss. I KNOW that they are gods. I said it in my first post. But sometimes stories are exaggerated.Like for example what if the names were those of very powerful Warboss names? And when they died the orks in the WAARGH thought they were gods sent to rally them together? And so they started to believe and this belief spread through all orkdom, until two gods really did come in to existence from all the thoughts of the orks?

penut the butter wrote:@Lord-Loss. I KNOW that they are gods. I said it in my first post. But sometimes stories are exaggerated.Like for example what if the names were those of very powerful Warboss names? And when they died the orks in the WAARGH thought they were gods sent to rally them together? And so they started to believe and this belief spread through all orkdom, until two gods really did come in to existence from all the thoughts of the orks?

No, they are just ork gods.

They're just as real as the rest of our little toy soldiers.

penut the butter wrote:@Lord-Loss. I KNOW that they are gods. I said it in my first post. But sometimes stories are exaggerated.Like for example what if the names were those of very powerful Warboss names? And when they died the orks in the WAARGH thought they were gods sent to rally them together? And so they started to believe and this belief spread through all orkdom, until two gods really did come in to existence from all the thoughts of the orks?

And as people keep saying, no they were not living orks who became warp entities.
Like the rest of the warp 'gods', they evolved from the energy that is created in the warp of the back of the physic energy in the physical realm.
They are the spirit of the Ork psyche and will made into very powerful warp entities, that's it.

Thank you Apone and Corpsesarefun

Oh sure I get no thanks... It's not like I said

It's a good question, but no. Gork and Mork were never real orks, just like Slaanesh wasn't any particular Eldar before the fall. They just came into being because of events in the physical universe.

before either of them.



P.S. I'm a sulky child when I haven't had my supper yet.

Yes, and because there are literally septillions of Orks in the galaxy, Gork and Mork are incredibly powerful gods, which is how the Orks manage to warp reality in minor ways by believing in something, like making red vehicles go faster or getting their crude guns to work.

In fact, Gork and Mork are so powerful that they thump any of the other gods (Chaos included) that get in their way. I think it was once mentioned that Khorne once got in Gork's way, and Gork whacked him over the head with a huge club.

The flipside of it is, while Mork can put Khorne in a trashcan, and Gork can put shaving cream on his hand while he's sleeping and tickle his nose so that he smashes shaving cream into his face, they're probably never going to actually do anything to threaten Chaos.

They're made from less serious concepts than that.

Uh, it's Gork who'd beat up Khorne and Mork who'd do the shaving cream thing, remember?

Gork is the god of cunning brutality, and Mork is the god of brutal cunning. The difference is that one hits you when you're looking, and the other hits you when you aren't.

Cheese you should comment in the "Orks vs Imperum" thread. People are claiming that Ork tech sucks and they cant do space travels.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Uh, it's Gork who'd beat up Khorne and Mork who'd do the shaving cream thing, remember?

Gork is the god of cunning brutality, and Mork is the god of brutal cunning. The difference is that one hits you when you're looking, and the other hits you when you aren't.

Cunning brutality is like the shaving cream, brutal cunning is like the trash cans.

YOU GOTTA PROBLEM WIFF DAT, SQUIGZOGGA?

Anything thought of exist in the warp how long it last is bassed on how much baking it has in the realy world.

Dont get me wrong i luvs ma orks but for some reason i dont think gork and mork are as real as the big chaos 4.

Why i say this is because in the deamons of chaos which speaks a lot about the realm of chaos there is not any mention even in passing of ork influnce in the warp.
as far as i know there is not mention of gork and mork acting as gods per se like the chaos gods do. This is why i belive that gork and mork are more of a concept like the whole red paint make things faster concept

the chaos gods as far as the game is concerned are realish. they do directly affect the 40k world but gork and mork are literaly just names in the background

HiddenPower wrote:Dont get me wrong i luvs ma orks but for some reason i dont think gork and mork are as real as the big chaos 4.

Why i say this is because in the deamons of chaos which speaks a lot about the realm of chaos there is not any mention even in passing of ork influnce in the warp.
as far as i know there is not mention of gork and mork acting as gods per se like the chaos gods do. This is why i belive that gork and mork are more of a concept like the whole red paint make things faster concept

the chaos gods as far as the game is concerned are realish. they do directly affect the 40k world but gork and mork are literaly just names in the background

*Face palm*

The chaos gods do not directly interfere in the Material realm with some exception like the Horus Heresy.

There is multiple mentions in the fluff of Gork and Mork playing pranks on the chaos gods. As well mentions of Gork and Mork waking and the Chaos gods and the Emporer being scared or something.

Read Lexicanum.

However, as previously stated, the 'big 4' are WORSHIPPED by the chaos legions, where as Gork and Mork are merely revered and believed in by the orks. Large difference.

And, read lexicanum. Gork and Mork have a huge warp presence if I'm not mistaken.

I don't think Gork and Mork really have the ambition to try and break into the material universe.

They're already da biggest and da strongest.

Yep, their behaviour mirrors that of the Orks. Orks don't invade planets and kill people to gain anything, they do it for fun. If they happen to gain something, then that's a plus. The average Boy doesn't want to rule anyone other than his own mob; he just wants to fight.

lord-loss i agree they dont affect the world dirrectly but they do affect it unlike gork and mork.

examples:
Khorne beating up skar brand and messing up his wings= a 40k character that does appear in the real 40k universe with signs that he was affected by khorn himself

Slanesh and his birth warp scream= endangered species for the eldar

tzench dipping fateweaver into the well of info thing= fateweaver having two heads and being a true character in 40k

But for gork and mork can anybody give me an example of them affecting the real 40k unioverse indirectly? Ghazgull i dont believe counts because in the codex it says it that it could be delusions and he CLAIMS that it be gork and mork.
another thing i would like to point out, a lot of the other warp entities seem to have some sort of direct representation to the real world. The big 4 have their demons the Emperor you can argue has his martys and holy miracles proof being in the SoB and their heroes, and even the eldar have the avatars of khaine but no gork and mork stuff

If gork&mork mirror orks then they probably don't care enough to affect the materium.
Orks don't care about other orks.

Orkestra wrote:Oh sure I get no thanks... It's not like I said

It's a good question, but no. Gork and Mork were never real orks, just like Slaanesh wasn't any particular Eldar before the fall. They just came into being because of events in the physical universe.

before either of them.



P.S. I'm a sulky child when I haven't had my supper yet.

Sorry man but I had something important to handle so I couldn't really thank you. I had to finish my post real quick. Wife was getting mad . So again I'm so sorry and thank you Orkestra.

I'm my own personal 40k background Gork is Khorne and Mork is Tzeentch, reflecting the Orkish tendencies to violence and political bickering.

I thought Gork was the god of cunning brutality and Mork was the god of brutal cunning or something like that.

Gork and Mork explained

Just not in detail.

As mentioned before, the Chaos Gods manifest daemons in order to directly affect the physical realm. This is because they seek to gain power, grow in strength, and like to influence the material world.

Gork and Mork, however, are Ork gods, and as such, act like Orks. They don't particularly care if anyone believes in them. The orks do, which is enough to make them the most powerful deities in the warp. They just wander around and do whatever they want. Gork and Mork don't have these weird things like goals or plans. They don't need daemons to further their schemes, because they have no schemes. They just are.

They aren't mentioned in the Daemons of Chaos book, because it's about Chaos in the warp. There are lots of hints in the fluff about warp-entities unconnected from the Chaos Gods, and Gork and Mork are just a couple of them. They are, in a way, benevolent when it comes to the creatures living in the material realm, because they just couldn't care less about pitiful 'oomans. Unless them 'umies is borkin' up da boyz, then they'll give Ghazgull a 2+ invulnerable save on the waagh to fix them roight propa.

I would say that Gork and Mork COULD be an interpretation of Khorne, because if Khorne doesn't like orks, then he's just a Khorne imitators, and we should all shun him

Sorry.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm my own personal 40k background Gork is Khorne and Mork is Tzeentch, reflecting the Orkish tendencies to violence and political bickering.

Yet various ork codex's and books saying that gork and mork beat up the chaos gods and laughed at them.

A serious theological discussion about Gork and Mork?
Only one way to settle it!

corpsesarefun:

Seems par for course for the Chaos Gods. They're nothing if not inconsistent.

Something else I'll note: the Warp and its denizens are pretty much defined as unreal, with reality being only one small corner of the Warhammer universe that the Gods occasionally notice, break into, and then forget about it in the course of more important events. In one sense they're the ultimate reality, being the Platonic essences of reality, and in another sense reality is what hangs on the edge of the Abyss. I like to think of the

I wonder how many warp being there are.

That's a simple answer: None. The Warp is the anti-thesis of being.

Lord-Loss wrote:I wonder how many warp being there are.

Every 'being' in the Warp has its own mind, yet is also merely part of a greater whole, both everything and nothing at once. Normal laws of the universe don't apply to the Warp. Visually, it's just a roiling mass of energy with 'pockets' of reality, which is where the gods have their realms and are no doubt they are mistaken by humans as glimpses of hell because they're horrifying places to look at.

Orkestra wrote: In fact, Gork and Mork are the most powerful of the entities within the warp, because they are the avatars of all of orkdom in the warp. The chaos gods, while powerful, are merely a reflection of one part of the human (or eldar/other psychically attuned races) psyche.

When a Ork has lots o' fun choppin' up humies, the pleasure he feels feeds slaanesh.

His bloodlust feeds Khorne.

The Morkier (more kunnin') a ork iz, the more he plots his morkie schemeses, see?
...and feeds Tzeentch.

Jihallah wrote:

Orkestra wrote: In fact, Gork and Mork are the most powerful of the entities within the warp, because they are the avatars of all of orkdom in the warp. The chaos gods, while powerful, are merely a reflection of one part of the human (or eldar/other psychically attuned races) psyche.

When a Ork has lots o' fun choppin' up humies, the pleasure he feels feeds slaanesh.

His bloodlust feeds Khorne.

The Morkier (more kunnin') a ork iz, the more he plots his morkie schemeses, see?
...and feeds Tzeentch.

No.

An Ork mind must be so..different from a humans or an eldars.
So different the Chaos gods might be unable to feed off them. The Orks created the Gods out of there emotions. Why are they unable to feed the Chaos Gods? We can only guess.

Orkestra wrote:Gork and Mork explained

Gork and Mork, however, are Ork gods, and as such, act like Orks. They don't particularly care if anyone believes in them. The orks do, which is enough to make them the most powerful deities in the warp. They just wander around and do whatever they want. Gork and Mork don't have these weird things like goals or plans. They don't need daemons to further their schemes, because they have no schemes. They just are.

Reading that brought the Joker to mind.

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know, I just... do things. The mob has plans, the cops have plans, Gordon's got plans. You know, they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer."

HiddenPower wrote:lord-loss i agree they dont affect the world dirrectly but they do affect it unlike gork and mork.

examples:
Khorne beating up skar brand and messing up his wings= a 40k character that does appear in the real 40k universe with signs that he was affected by khorn himself

Slanesh and his birth warp scream= endangered species for the eldar

tzench dipping fateweaver into the well of info thing= fateweaver having two heads and being a true character in 40k

But for gork and mork can anybody give me an example of them affecting the real 40k unioverse indirectly? Ghazgull i dont believe counts because in the codex it says it that it could be delusions and he CLAIMS that it be gork and mork.
another thing i would like to point out, a lot of the other warp entities seem to have some sort of direct representation to the real world. The big 4 have their demons the Emperor you can argue has his martys and holy miracles proof being in the SoB and their heroes, and even the eldar have the avatars of khaine but no gork and mork stuff

Gork can step on people, although the current weirdboy rules don't include rules for it.

Seriously though, I figure orks are too pure of a concept. A bloodthirster isn't what humanity is, they're a representation of humanity's rage and.. erm.. bloodthirst, but Gork and Mork are made of orkiness. You represent orkiness with an ork, that's about all you can do. It's circular, there's no conflict - or difference even, really - between the orks in the material universe and Gork and Mork in the warp.


With regards to Gork, Mork, and Khorne, this is from one of the old books (I want to say Waaagh! Da Orks, but I'm not sure):

ORKS AND CHAOS
There is no predilection for Chaos among the Orks; indeed, Orks are much less likely to turn to Chaos than Humans or other races. This is due to the fact that the Ork race is relatively stable and content. There is little psychic stress or angst among the Orks, which leaves virtually no avenue through which Chaos can invade their minds. Some races confuse Orks as being evil and thus synonymous with Chaos. This is a misunderstanding on their part, however.
Orks are not inherently evil; neither is Chaos. Likewise, Orks do not naturally or consistently affiliate with the forces of Chaos. Orks simply live by the crude survival-of-the fittest principles that pervade the universe. Warlike civilizations, such as that of the Orks, simply reflect these survivalist principles all the more. By the same token, Chaos is neither good nor evil; it simply mirrors the survivalist emotions of intelligent beings in the real universe. Thus, predatory powers of Chaos, be they deities or daemons, exist because living things generate these emotions.
By analogy, there are gargantuan Ork powers in the warp -powers that are the reflections of the Orks' cheerfully irresponsible and warlike nature. At the same time, it is possible for Orks to overindulge their taste for militarism and bloodshed, which will ultimately lead them to Khorne. Indeed, Khorne does feed on these aspects of Orkish character; this shows in the very face of Khorne, which has markedly Orkish aspects.
Most of their enemies would agree that Orks lack many of the finer qualities found in the various races of the universe. Not surprisingly, Orks have no second thoughts about fighting alongside servants of Chaos, especially in return for pay or loot. Orks are not easily impressed by Chaos, since a typical Ork raider is likely to be exposed to manifestations of Chaos as he rampages about the less orderly parts of the galaxy. He is also less liable to be tempted by lure of Chaos power and sell his soul than many other races. This is in contrast to the unfortunate Humans who live in ratholes of hive worlds or desperately trying to build civilizations in inhospitable environments. These suffer from the stress of day-to-day survival. They become suspicious of the unknown and begin to look inwardly to find irrational explanations for their problems and misfortunes.

I think the reason that Gork and Mork aren't more dangerous is that they are eternally confused over why the "other" green God in the Warp keeps making them sick whenever they try to talk to him.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I think the reason that Gork and Mork aren't more dangerous is that they are eternally confused over why the "other" green God in the Warp keeps making them sick whenever they try to talk to him.

I concur with Jihallah.

The Chaos Gods aren't human specific, they are emotion specific. They have race specific subportions.

Gork is much like Khaine, both are the Khornate aspects of a particular race. Gork doesn't have Avatars or Daemons, because Orks don't need such things.

Mork is a similar kind of guy, only he represents the Tzeentchy bits of Orkdom. Low cunnin and such.

Orks aren't Nurgly enough or Slaaneshy enough to have a race specific sub-deity.

A note on my heretical fluff:

The Chaos Gods aren't "Human Gods", and they aren't strengthened or diminished by emotion: the interface, between the physical world of reality and the non-physical world of emotion and ideas, changes depending on the intensity of the emotions involved, the amount of activity (such as souls being cast adrift rather than being anchored to a real-space object), and so on.

So increasing despair doesn't strengthen Nurgle, but it does bring more of Him into the universe, and makes Him more present. Like Nurgle, there's no actual 'thing' that is despair, and this concurrent increase in nothing real or physical increases the warp-saturation in an area, its participation in that underlying nature of reality, the commensurate loss of structure in relation to that part of reality.

40kenthusiast wrote:The Chaos Gods aren't human specific, they are emotion specific.

But orks and humans aren't motivated to do the same actions by the same emotions.

The phrase "there are gargantuan Ork powers in the warp -powers that are the reflections of the Orks' cheerfully irresponsible and warlike nature. At the same time, it is possible for Orks to overindulge their taste for militarism and bloodshed, which will ultimately lead them to Khorne" seems to make some distinction between the two driving emotions of each god ("cheerfully warlike" versus "overindulgent in bloodshed"). Even if they intersect in some parts (and I would guess all of the chaos gods intersect each other in some way, I think Slaanesh has been used as an example of this before), calling one an aspect of the other seems to be painting them with pretty broad strokes.

Concept: Look, Orks fight some IG. Gork grows stronger from the Orks Waaagh. Khorne grows stronger from both side's aggression. One of these is broader than the other.

Quote: I don't have the books before me, but one sentence in a cannon as fractious as 40k doesn't make proof. Look at the Daemon codex, I'll bet you can find the Chaos Gods described as 'universal', 'all-encompassing' or some such. If not there, any book that has a Greater Daemon in it, or a glimpse of the Chaos Gods. (in particular, the description of Tzeentch in the first Grey Knight book was pretty clear on him being universal. There really isn't any room for poor Mork if he's not a green piece of Tzeentch)

In all honesty, GW doesn't have an answer for this. It's a setting bit they have no vested interest in clarifying, like Farsight's master. But from the perspective of a fan making sense of things, racial subtypes for various races names for the Chaos Gods makes sense, as opposed to the can of worms that comes out of an independent Gork and Mork. (Khorne DOES care from whence the blood flows. If its from Orks, he leaves it to his good buddy Gork!)

I hardly think the simplest "solution" here is to make some gods secretly be other gods, with nothing in the fluff to indicate that this is the case. Do you have a piece of fluff that contradicts the piece of fluff specifically written about Khorne and the other chaos god's relation with the orks and their gods? It's an awfully specific subject to have retcons of.

Also, I don't think their being "universal" doesn't have much to do with it. Obviously Tzeentch and Slaanesh can be universal without being the same god, so why would Gork and Khorne have to be the same?

I guess there's also the question of whether tyranids and necrons fighting over resources pleases Khorne in the same way humans fighting does.

Notion: It's an easy and elegant solution though, it handles the Khaine/Khorne nonsense, explains the lack of Daemons of Gork, etc. Gork as big green Bloodthirster works perfectly, and it isn't like it precludes the quote you've mentioned. Bits of Khorne fight all the time, its pretty much all the they do. His green bit would fight his red bits as eagerly as they fight each other, and he himself would war with Khorne in pretty much the manner described.

I could even buy the notion that Gork is a composite composed mostly of Khorne with some Nurgle thrown in. Orks enjoy aggression more than the usual Khornate beings, which are grim and humorless, it sort of reminds me of the GUO's attitude.

Fluff: The Chaos Daemon codex describes the Chaos Gods, as does the main rulebook. I'm pretty sure you can find something in there which references Khorne as being "every drop of blood spilled", or some such. It's pretty clear, the Big 4 are universal. (Once again, reference Tzeentch in the book Grey Knights, where he is all lies, all conspiracy, etc. There isn't an "Except for Orkish lies, which belong to Mork" in there.) Reading the Liber, the 4 are actually the terrain of the Warp, as well as its lords.

Tzeentch and Slaanesh are universal without being the same God, but they feed off different emotions. Gork is aggression, Khorne is aggression. It's just that Khorne is described, everywhere, as an absolutely universal constant. He has the broader scope (consider my earlier example, Orks vs. IG, both sides feed Khorne). Gork is a peer of Khaine, a seperate and self contained segment of Khorne.

An aside here to point out that Gork may well be Khorne's original form. Orks were created by the Old Ones way back in the day, long before there were humans. It's entirely possible that Khorne only became the main name after humans took over. Gork would probably have been the first of the aggressive impulses to congeal into a Warp God, alongside Khaine. Or maybe Khorne has always been the aggregate of the personifications of the aggressive component races? Interesting thoughts...

Crons: I guess the question there is whether Khorne actually cares about fighting. I'd argue that while his Daemons would say he does, in truth he's the Deity of aggression/anger/those feelings, and wouldn't derive any power from machines fighting, in the same way that asteroids smashing against each other don't feed him.

I'll take an aside here to note that whether or not Necrons have vestigal consciences imprisoned from the original Necrontyr would come into this at this point. If they do, and those consciousness hate, Khorne would be pleased. If they are just robots (which is my preferred explanation of crons), I'd say he wouldn't notice or care.

Nids: Nids are definitely psykers (or one big psyker, depending on your viewpoint), and they are definitely aggressive, so I'd say that they feed Khorne. Whether you think the Hive Mind is the whole race functioning as a Psyker or whether you think its a Chaos God would definitely come into it though.

I think we're in disagreement over the concept of "aggression".

"Aggression" can be an emotion, but it just as readily describes an action; a gun drone can be aggressive with regards to the way it performs what it was instructed to do, a chess player can be aggressive with regards to his opening moves. That doesn't mean that they're under the same emotions that a berserker is.

Aggression in humans comes from rage, hatred, a desire for vengeance, concern for the destruction of your enemies overcoming the concern for your own self-interest, etc. It's primarily driven by Khornate traits. Even conflict started by, say, gun drones is going to feed Khorne if humans are involved, because they respond to attack with anger and a desire for revenge.

Aggression in necrons comes from the instructions of their superiors, and the most logical way of carrying out those instructions.

Aggression in orks can come from a variety of sources, but it's usually just a display of their natural tendencies. They do feel rage, some of the time, but they also respond with aggression to boredom, minor annoyance, desire to have whatever shiny thing his friend has, boredom, intoxication, and pretty much anything else that happens in an ork's life.

What's the difference between an ork deciding to stomp on grots fer a laff, and an ork deciding to speed around in his new buggy? One is aggression, but both can easily be a result of the same emotions and desires in an ork. Conflict is natural to them, shying away from it would probably bring an ork closer to Nurgle or something along those lines, simply because it would require a highly deviant set of emotions/motives for an ork to do so.

Then there's the factor of Orks and Khorne doing very little with one another, despite the fact that in terms of actual fighting and warfare there's far more of it with the orks than there is with the humans. In that regard, it would be Khorne who is an aspect of Gork; the human emissary to the greater god of warfare.

I have to disagree with the ork goods= shoas gods for this reason: the chaos gods have to be created some how example sleeenesh(speeling), this means that the ork gods could exist but would only feed of ork emotions cause the orks think they do. Also the tyranids probably dont feed the choas gods(shodow in the war thing and some refrences) they all pretty much lack a soul and that one hive mind thing could probably count as a god.

Its possible that Orks dont even feel rage and agression. There so different to humans.

They fight cause they enjoy it unlike Berzerkers who feel lots of rage and agression.

I think it's a difference in the amount of anger required to get a certain reaction.

If a human's subordinate messes something up, he'll probably get yelled at. If an ork's subordinate messes something up (and his boss actually notices), he'll get yelled at, and probably either punched, chopped, or shot, depending on what da boss is holding in his hand at the time.

However, that's a not a difference in the amount of anger they feel, it's a difference what their race's natural reaction to that level of anger is.

I hate having to cross ref. things here, but it needs to be done

40k and WHFB meet once again

Gork and Mork in WHFB are magical, using thier powers to stamp on units and punch them, now, using the fluff that has created them im guessing it would be the same in 40k, except you drop magic and replace it with the warp (since thats what its been substituted for)

I would say that G&M are warp entities, much like the chaos gods, but they tend to be more preserved in what they do, and not get involved alot.

To that end, Gork and Mork are the Gods of Orkiness, therefore their Avatars in the real universe are simply good old Orks. Nothing to do with them pancy Chaos Gods :p

All Gods are Chaos Gods, in 40k.

Nurglitch wrote:All Gods are Chaos Gods, in 40k.

Totally...except the C'tan, who are Star Gods...

oh and the Eldar Gods (I think the Laughing God would take offence to the suggestion that he is a Chaos God, then he'd throw a pie in your face)

And Gork & Mork aren't Chaos Gods, they are far to 'pure of purpose' for that, they're just big bundles of Orky goodness

The C'tan aren't gods, the Eldar Gods were mere daemons, and Gork and Mork are simply Orkish names for two of the Dark Powers.

JD actually makes a pretty good point re: WHFB. Gork has magic in WHFB, Khorne never does. It's a sign of distinction, but ultimately I'd argue that it's much like the wrath of Khaine spell.

Just a sign that Khaine/Gork are not pure Khorne. I'd say Khaine is an amalgam of Khorne/Tzeentch (cunning killing), while Gork is an amalgam of Nurgle/Khorne (happy killing).

The C'tan are energy beings. They might be stronger than any incarnation of the Warp in the materium, but have no warp power.

I read an interesting theory once that the most powerful spirit's of the Chaos Gods WERE the C'tan's warp reflection. Nightbringer's rage = Khorne's biggest piece, etc, Deceiver's cunning = Tzeentch's biggest piece, etc. Not an atrocious theory.

That still doesn't explain why Khorne has a lesser emissary specifically for orks, instead of a lesser emissary specifically for humans, though.

Nurglitch wrote:The C'tan aren't gods, the Eldar Gods were mere daemons, and Gork and Mork are simply Orkish names for two of the Dark Powers.

Eegad! The C'tan are indeed gods. Creatures of infinite talents with the power to make and unmake reality and who literally feast on suns and the living energy of lesser-beings. Sound pretty Godly to me, at least in the spectrum of the 40K universe. Plus the fact that before they were given the gifts of physical bodies, they were reffered to as Star-Gods sorta seems to suggest that they were worshipped...a bit like gods.

And the Eldar Gods simply being daemons? Eegad again! How come the Laughing God (there's that word again) is constantly able to run rings around not only the C'tan (Star Gods) but also She Who Thirsts (y'know, one of the supposed 'actual' Gods). Also, Khaine is known as the Bloody-Handed God by the Eldar.

The main qualifier of Godly status in 40K appears to be belief and worship from the sentient species in the physical universe. The War in Heaven (between the Star Gods and The Eldar Gods, with that qunatifier God attached again) occured before the proper creation of the Chaos Gods.

As for Gork and Mork, well I really do honestly doubt that they are simply Khorne and Tzeentch under different guises. There has been several examples of Orks possessed by actual Chaos (Bloodquest anyone?) to cement the fact that your regular Ork belives in a very specific non-chaos related deity (or deities). Plus, as many of the other kind fellows on this thread have pointed out, Gork and Mork are not as interfering as the other Chaos Gods, and the Gods of Chaos actually balk at the thought of taking on these awesomely Orky colossi.

You just need to say what exactly a God is in the 40K universe. Whose to say that the Chaos Gods are Gods at all, maybe they are just insanely powerful Warp Organisms and the sentient species are at such a loss to identify and catalogue them that they are reffered to as Gods (simply using your theory on why the other Gods aren't Gods on ya ^^)

Oh, and don't get me started on ol' Malal lol

Im pretty sure "She who thirsts" is Slaanesh.

The C'tan already had physical forms: they're manifestly created within and exist within the bounds of reality, and hence have no claim to godhood other than being able inspire devotion in the credulous. They're neither super-natural, nor essential to the nature of reality.

It's quite natural that a being that exists outside of space and time should be able to run rings around mere blobs of space-time, incandescent though they may be. That the Laughing God is able to evade Slaanesh as well is not unusual, as one imagines that plenty of greater daemons of Tzeentch do the same. I see no reason why an independent Daemon should not do the same, particularly if its essence is tied tightly to Tzeentch.

The idea that godhood is conferred by worship has been rubbished by the background since Slaves to Darkness, with the Dark Powers forming the four essential properties of reality, and having their influence in reality rise as their attentions are drawn.

The War in Heaven is a set of Eldar myths laid down long ago, and like all myths is mostly hooey, and an attempt to ignore the fundamental nature of the universe by suggesting that there is something somehow special and shiny about the Eldar and that they'll get theirs in the end so long as they hang in there.

Lord-Loss wrote:Im pretty sure "She who thirsts" is Slaanesh.

I'm aware

And I dunno, this whole "The Gods of Chaos are Gods cause they is in the Warp and they are neccasary for the continuation of everything" is a bit 'Hooey'.

There was a time before the Gods of Chaos, and the universe existed quite happily, when the Warp was becalmed and they didn't exist.

There was definately a time before Slannesh, and things seem to be quite happy to exist without him/her/it as well.

In fact, the Old Ones manufactured the Krork (who would become our dearly beloved greenskins) before the Chaos Gods had manifested, thus leading me to believe that Greenskin beliefs and deities are in fact older still that the 'Big Four'. Surely then, if the 'hooey' belief that Gork and Mork are just different facets of the Chaos Gods, then it is in fact the other way around and Gork & Mork are the actual Gods, and two of the Chaos Gods are just facets of them.

I'm also finding this whole "The Eldar Gods are just daemons, ya dig?" thing a bit hard to believe. I would be most gracious if you would illuminate me as to where you sourced this bit of lore ^^


Also the explanation for the C'tan, I like your seemingly scientific explanation for a fictional creature In that case then the Chaos Gods could be described similiarly, being creatures of emotion and anti-matter, as opposed to Gods. And the only reason that the lesser denizens of the warp and creatures of the physical reality worship them is, how did you put it, "an attempt to ignore the fundamental nature of the universe" as opposed to "they're big bloody anti-matter monsters capable of insane acts of miracle-like power"

I have no doubt that in the 40K universe the Chaos Gods ARE indeed Gods, but they are faaaaar from the onlny ones ^^

My point is that the Warp is beyond time and space, and as such is fundamental to the nature of the material universe. As t says, when Slaaensh was born into the material universe, it had always existed, if existence is something that can be ascribed to an entity whose defining feature is that it's wholly insubstantial. See Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.7 for details.

As for the Eldar 'Gods' being gods, well of course, Slaves to Darkness pointed out that any daemon will claim to be a god if it thinks it can get away with it. It's what daemons do. Again, Slaves to Darkness points out that daemons are notorious liars in this regard.

The same goes for the C'tan: claiming to be a god and doing a few party-favours for credulous natives is a time-honoured way of obtaining authority over an alien tribe. But they are clearly not gods as they have needs, metabolize, exist for a finite amount of time, etc. Sure, they're big nasty solavores, but that's just another alien. As the inestimable Captain Kirk once asked: "What does God need with a starship?"

Ah Kirk, now there's a God we can agree on

But that still doesn't answer the question of how you know the Eldar Gods not to be Gods? And you again fail to address the Gork and Mork issue Surely if a God is neccasary for reality to exist, then who is to say that Gork and Mork aren't neccasary to the Greenskins reality?

I know that the Eldar Gods are not Gods because they are specific to the Eldar. Gods are not specific to their believers. Likewise reality is something everyone shares: there's no such thing as an Ork reality. That said, since Gork and Mork are facets of the Dark Powers, it's clear that they are necessary for reality, and recognized as such by the Orkish mind.

well i dont mean to be disrespectfull Nurglitch but the 40k universe you try to clarify is very borig.

It seems to you that the big 4 are the end all be all, if a baby burps at the edge of the galxy according to you it is feeding slaneesh because it desires food, if person A does action or has emotion B it feeds so and so. C'mon give some kind of flavor to our fictional game.

why cant there be more than one definition of a god in a fictional universe which has very subjective and very often contradictory fluff which IS the only evidence that we all use to try to make a point

let gork and mork be ork made gods please :-D

So you are saying Gork is Khorne and Mork is Tz?

gork being their god of a good fight, and mork being their god of cunnin

HiddenPower:

I don't take any offense to your opinion. After all, I think your take on the 40k universe is shallow and uninteresting, so I suppose it's okay if the feeling is mutual.

Sanchez01:

I did indeed make that suggestion earlier in the thread, yes.

dang followers of tzeentch always over complicating things :-) nurglitch i think you should change your name to tzeentchlitch! tehehehehe excuse me i have way to much time on my hands

Why are you so bent on there only being 4 gods, and all 4 of them are Chaos Gods?

Because that's what the background states, and has stated since Rogue Trader, and it's one of the few things I still like about the official background.

Nurglitch wrote:Because that's what the background states, and has stated since Rogue Trader

Links? Evidence?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:Because that's what the background states, and has stated since Rogue Trader

Links? Evidence?

Go read:

Slaves to Darkness
The Lost and the Damned
'Ere We Go, Waaargh the Ork, Freebooterz
Warhammer 40k rulebooks, Rogue Trader to 5th edition
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 2nd Edition
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3rd Edition
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3rd Edition v2
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Necrons

Nurglitch wrote:Go read:

Slaves to Darkness
The Lost and the Damned
'Ere We Go, Waaargh the Ork, Freebooterz
Warhammer 40k rulebooks, Rogue Trader to 5th edition
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 2nd Edition
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3rd Edition
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3rd Edition v2
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Necrons

Errr..Il just trust that your not lieing to us then

no im preety sure that its his interpretation of what is said

man am i gonna get it for this last statement :-(

Why? It's clearly true that my opinion is my interpretation. Now, I also think that the sources give us very good reasons for this interpretation, above and beyond other interpretations, but I don't think that we should be slaves to the official background: I'm certainly not.

In my personal 40k background there are still Space Marine Legions, Titans can take off and land on a planet's surface independently, Tyranids are very Rogue Trader - carnivorous zero-g dwelling flesh-engineering eusocial aliens, worshippers of the Great Devourer and intent on dominating other races (Rippers are larva!), and the C'tan are Necron Doomday weapons.

But it is only my opinion that the only Gods in 40k are the Dark Powers, and all other so-called 'gods' are false gods, opportunistic daemons and other puissant entities that are the focus of misguided religious excess. It's also my opinion that this previous opinion is justified by the source texts, but nonetheless both are my opinion and you're entitled to your own regardless of how I feel about it.

Ive always imagined Gork and Mork to be stronger then the Chaos Gods but exist in a entirely different part of the warp.

i my personal background to 40k Biel tan,Saim han, and Ulthwe have allied permanently attaching each others craftworlds together.

they are not gonna wait till their end and are using hardcore clonning and wraith tech to recoup their numbers

I want the Eldar to bring this galaxy back into civilized order

In my personal background there are no C'Tan. I don't like them

They're replaced by the highest lords of the Necrotyr race. The Old Ones probably don't exist either.

Orkeosaurus wrote:In my personal background there are no C'Tan. I don't like them

They're replaced by the highest lords of the Necrotyr race. The Old Ones probably don't exist either.

If the Old Ones dont exist who created your precious Orks!?!

Wot? Orks is what pulled themselves up by their boot-lever! Every grot knows dat!

Orks would be created by the Brainboys, same as now.

The relation between the Old Ones and the orks seems more vague. I think the story most implied by the fluff would be that the Brainboys were one of the Old One's creations, who then created the ork armies on their behalf. Other possibilities would be the Old Ones and Brainboys being the same, or the orks and "krork" being related more tangently (if at all).

Or them having always been there, becuz orks is made ta rool everyfing.

The orks are the krork, in the necron codex the Deciever says he is suprised to see all of humanity and the greenskins runnin around, I think he mentions them krork or at least alludes to that, I mena the kork where craeted as a pdf in the big war and if they were all over the place that means they atleast werent sapose to spread, and man i can not spell at all.

Is it the orks who are the krork, the snotlings who are the krork, all greenskins who are the krork, or are the krork something the C'Tan would recognize one of the above as being without them actually being the same?

I think all greenskins are krork.

Because if anyone is a reliable witness, it's Mephet'ran, the Deceiver.

I know but, he does tell truths when he needs too and there would be no reason for him to hide the fact ork are kork cause he probably is gonna kill the guy hes talking to and that information dosnt really have any effect cause everyone knows orks cover alot of space and all it is him calling them by the name he assostiates with them the most like mon-kigh for us with eldar.

Sure, but in the story in question Mephet'ran didn't need to tell the truth, and always has a reason to lie: to sweeten the morsel he is about to consume, and because he likes to feth with people.

Furthermore, if we only have the Deceiver's word for whether there's any significant relation between the krork and the orks, then there may be no 'fact' to be concealed, and the krok are not the orks.

Nurglitch you are good, and I mean that. Also in the ork codex the brianboys are said to die in a plauge and in the necron codex the necrons are refered as a plauge and the kork never got assulted by the nightbringer enough to fear death like us and the eldar, and the orks heve verry little fear for death really

the orks are not scared of any thing at lest it says in the codex

As far as Im aware all the chaos gods are emotions given form in the warp. In this manner they are empowered by creatures feeling the emotion that corrispond to them.. aggression khrone; hope Tzeencth.

I remember reading one of the last chancers novels and kage was possessed, the daemon within him didn't feel anything from the orks.. kinda like they are on a differnet vibration. Meaning the daemon wasn't interested in them because he couldn't feed of them.

To me these two above paragrapghs mean that Chaos Gods are unable to fight eachother in any meaningful way beacuse their lifeblood/force is out of reach. It also means that Gork and Mork exist and are completely different to chaos type gods because chaos gods need a specific type or flavor of an emotion.

The Ctan are stupid aliens.

The eldar gods are extremely weak warp entities tied to a specifc flavour emotion of which there is not much of.

Feel free to explain how wrong I am but that how I alwyas understood it.

Dude thats the way I see it. I mean I hate to bring this refrnece up but in this star trek novel I read these "God" like beings required worship but it had to be directed to them to work

Don't base your ideas from star trek.
Just because that's the way it is in star trek doesn't mean it will be the same in 40k. The only ones who really worship the gods are the word bearers. Every other warband(that I know of) do thier worshipping on the battle by killing the enemies of the gods.

Im not bassing it completly that idea of worship charging the gods comes from a couple places, the Age of Ra this book i just read had it and it is made by a company owned by Black Library

The idea of Gods deriving power from worship is ultimately uninteresting, theologically speaking. The interesting thing about Gods is not that they need mortals, in any sense, but that mortals need them and need to sacrifice to them. That's why you get things like the story of Abraham making to sacrifice Isaac, questions about why God would allow there to be evil in the world, and so on. It's in the nature of Gods to come first, and humanity to be secondary and in relation to the Godhead.*

Lucretious the Roman Epicurean Poet argued that in being perfect and wholly content the Gods would not interfere with the affairs of mortals, but I think that Lucretious was talking against the notion of Gods as simply powerful people, rather than against the idea of Gods being the foundation of nature. After all, the point of Lucretious' argument was that mortals shouldn't worry about the Gods taking an interest (adverse or otherwise), and instead worry about the nature of reality.

The Chaos Gods, to my mind, are like a dark mirror of the Epicurean Gods in that they are both perfect and wholly content, but also involved in the affairs of mortals. And they get involved in the affairs of mortals precisely because they are fundamental to the nature of reality. It is in their 'super-nature', to coin a term, to be both apart from and intrinsic to the human condition.

The background material on Chaos Spawn is the best exemplar of this, where the Chaos Gods 'gift' their Champions, but do so according to their own capricious and indifferent natures rather than to help or hinder the Champion. They don't do it because they favour the Champion in any recognizable sense of supporting him, they do it because doing so reflects their own interests.

That's why I like to take the tack that worship of the Chaos Gods is an effect, rather than a cause, of the waxing of the Warp, and the breakdown of reality. As reality breaks down, people respond to the revelation of Divinity and turn to religion.

When the Dark Powers act in harmony that reality stabilizes, like it did during the Great Crusade as the Dark Powers worked together to destroy the ambitions of the Emperor.

So a good theodicy of Warhammer 40k doesn't try to explain away the existence of evil in the universe, as being instrumental in some higher good, but rather explains that evil exists precisely because the universe is in its essence amoral and uncaring. Remember that Chaos Space Marines are damned, not because they forsake the Emperor, but because they turn away from sacrificing themselves, and put their own selfish interests first.

*The philosophical point that people made Gods in their own images was not a comment about the nature of Gods, but offered as an argument for atheism.

Some deep stuff. Yeah.A god is basically what a person ideal,morals and views are embodied.For example you could have a god who embodies good and light(like the tradional view of god)or you could have the element based gods9simalar to what pacific islanders do.
Your god could be a a 30ish year old nailed to a peice of wood or maybe a god who's magic animal is a dog.But basically a god is what people want to see and strive to be or what you should not be (in the case of the chaos gods or satan.)

Nurglitch, your theory on the four Chaos gods being the only true four, others being facets of these four, is contradictied in the 40k fluff. Reading through Lexicanum, I came across these paragraphs that discounts your theory:

"Cegorach - the Great Harlequin, the Great Fool, the First Fool, the Laughing God - is one of the gods of Eldar myth, and the central figure of Harlequin belief. While most of the gods were destroyed during the Fall of the Eldar, according to legend, this deity survived because his mocking nature distanced him from the corruption and decadence that became Slaanesh. Cegorach is the only authority the Harlequins recognize."

Here it clearly states the Slaanesh was created by the corruption and decadence of the then Eldar, and such the other three Chaos "Gods" are merely reflections of Human emotions and attributes.. Also, to help with the explanation of Gork and Mork:

"Gork and Mork are the twin gods of the Orks. Ork traits and emotions have a reflection in the warp the same as the traits and emotions of Humans and Eldar do."

Again it clearly states that Gork and Mork are warp reflections of Ork nature, such as the four Chaos Gods are warp reflections of Human/ Eldar/ others traits and emotions. Going back to the argument on who would be stronger, I would agree with the theory that Gork and Mork are the superior. My reasoning is that because Ork nature is so "simple" and one sided, only two entities are needed to reflect their nature, coincidentally the two "Gods" are very similar ie. Orkish nature is straightfoward survival of the fittest, and Gork and Mork represent the strongest and fittest of all ork kind, which all orks aspire to be like.

And finally:

"In the early history of the galaxy, the powers of the warp had yet to form into distinct entities but rather the emotions of mortals flowed and ebbed as water does in a stream. As the mortal races grew and prospered, so did the strength of their emotions. Eventually the gods grew to such a point where they could act independently of the general flow of emotions and thus were formed with gods of Chaos. They reached into the dreams of mortals and demanded praise and servitude in order to increase their own power, as the more one emotion is exhibited (in both thought and action) the stronger that god becomes. The first three gods became sentient by the end of M2 but Slaanesh didn't fully awaken until the Fall of the Eldar in M29."

Done and done.

All praise the wealth of knowledge that is lixicanum, and the fact i dont share gods with umies.....

Orkfantic wrote:All praise the wealth of knowledge that is lixicanum, and the fact i dont share gods with umies.....

I hope that was sarcasm, When ever I hear people quote from lexicrap It make me want to throw up all over my computer screen.

There's a running story throughout Waaargh The Orks about a Mekboy named Ushbek who starts a Waaargh! rolling by building two gargants (one each for G/M). Throughout the story, there are segments which basically talk about G/M waking up and ignoring the attempts by the other gods to thwart them (the "Chaos Powers" apparently follow in the wake of the Waaargh!, taking advantage of its effects). The Emp' opens his eyes in fear (that's a major reaction for a mostly-dead guy), Gork cause earthquakes and windstorms by peeking out of the warp and the simple act of waking up and looking around drives the suicide/violent crime rate up across the entire galaxy.

Does that make them real? Does it make them gods? Call it however you personally see it, but dead 'ard is dead 'ard no matter what you label it.