Do you play the way this guy plays or is there a lesson to be learnt

Whilst on the Internet I recently came across this report and they thought it was only fair to post it online to see what youse guys thought of the tactics that were being used at this tournament.

from the web page http://www.thehogsofwar.com/2009/08/big-wa...ter-game-2.html

His method of running his orks was to use mobs of 30 boyz which zigzagged back and forth across the board in conga line formation. Anytime you went to shoot a mob, part of it would be zigzagged around some terrain giving the unit a cover save. Each mob was led up front by a Nob with Power Claw and 3 rockit boyz. If you shot the unit, casualties came from the middle or rear, and just further minimized how many you can get with a template. Right off the bat I had two mobs running up the side and they were on me quick.













What do you guys think

Perfectly legal and smart

And perfectly vulnerable to an equal number of other tactics.

So even thought alot of the units wern't in cover they all got cover saves? hmmmm, In a tournament, fair enough, but in a casual game, that just sounds too much like rule exploit to me.

whitedragon wrote:And perfectly vulnerable to an equal number of other tactics.

Please enlighten us, oh keeper of the forbidden picture.

Risky, actually... I guess it's a gamble that can pay off but expose you to any number of other hazards (shooting closest model but all can be killed, etc).

That's a nasty recipe for a flamer plate or a quick assault to the middle of the unit. pulling the whole unit back from your lines. Strung out like that most of the models won't be able to engage and that means you could actually win a combat and pull the bad men way back from where the front of the unit is.

its lame, and not legal anymore for 'ardboyz, or any tournament i've played in.

it doesn't offer much bonus (because of stated drawbacks), it takes more time to move the mobs, and it looks like he's obviously trying to be a git.

Added to list of dick moves.

Like other posters said...just assault the middle. Or tank shock the middle and make him move back into formation next turn. It's one of those things that seems like there's no answer to it, but honestly, it's really no big deal.

I had soemone try this on me.

I simply hit his Orks with one of my assault units on one end of his conga line. Not many Orks were able to get into the fight, and I won the combat against his 30 boys with ease. It also allowed me to force his "congaline" to where I wanted it to be....pulling him out of position.

If you hit 2 units on the outside (preferably with outflankers) and pull his boys outward, you expose the soft underbely of his army and he becomes easy pickings.

In the end, this tactic only works against shooty armies that are trying to completely avoid CC. Any army with a decent counter asssault unit or two can destroy this entire gameplan.

Of course, this is all ignoring the fact that the conga line is just begging to be hit with flamer templates

They aren't zig zagged between units but behind terrain which is completely legal. It's excellent movement which doesn't take that long and allows them a cover save from most sources of fire. It's not a dick move as it's easily countered. It seems the guy did the smart thing against a guard player who from the pictures went tank gunline. I've got no sympathy for the guard player.

Either flame him (hell hounds would love this formatiion, or assault the middle or rear. If you feel like bering an a$$ yourself, tank shock the middle of the unit. No PK/ rokkits there, so your vehicle is safe. if his formation ends up out of unit coherency (which it will), he'll be spending his next turn regaining it. Then, do it again .

As Alerian said this tactic is hugely vulnerable to any sort of endline assault. He can get maybe 10 Boyz into the mess, which is guaranteed to lose against any sort of CC unit. Your losses are vastly disproportionate when you factor in No Retrat! wounds.

Any sort of tankshock into his midline also completely FUBARS his movement, especially if it's on a fast tank with any sort of flamer.

It's one of those things that will work once... maybe... against a younger player.

Then you figure it out and it fails.

I don't think I'll be trying this with my boys, but look at the pics!
Those ork conga lines look so cool!, it makes me lol to think of all those orks, dancing into battle that way after overdoing the fungus beer,

ork conga line wrote:
"we are gonna getchA!
we are gonna getchA!
we are gonna... "

*whoopsie - double post'd!*

Oh, Montag! You're KILLIN' ME!

captain.gordino wrote:

whitedragon wrote:And perfectly vulnerable to an equal number of other tactics.

Please enlighten us, oh keeper of the forbidden picture.

I trust the above posters have already reviled the foil to this tactic? Forbidden indeed!

That would be an awful tactic against almost every army. Though against IG that's hilarious.

Im pretty sure you could move straight up the board with a kustom force field better than that anyways.

All I can think about is the whole conga line from the Simpsons at Homers bbq - "you don't win friends wilt SA-LAD"

If I wasn't so busy with work - I'd have to draw an ork conga line - maybe this fall when it's slower.

Dick Move I wouldn't use it - legal - UNLESS the guy was being a tool, it can backfire WAY too easy. Mork forbid you break up the formation.

I thinks he probably played other mates that weekend? Anyone else play him and lose to this tactic?

If so, I would like to know where they play so I can be a Pokemaster!

Is the Ork player the guy in blue shirt?

I would not say that this is a "dick move." I really think it's not a good tactic. The strength in a mob of Boyz is in overwhelming you with attacks in CC. You can charge this unit and most of it will not get to attack in the first assault phase. You would win the combat by quite a few wounds and probably overrun the rest of them.

PAN-FOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hulksmash wrote:That's a nasty recipe for a flamer plate or a quick assault to the middle of the unit. pulling the whole unit back from your lines. Strung out like that most of the models won't be able to engage and that means you could actually win a combat and pull the bad men way back from where the front of the unit is.

Yup. Pretty much.


Its smart in some ways, dumb in others. Its... a tactic? i think he's scared of losing lots of boyz, and generally when you get scared you might lose some boyz, you're probably going to lose ("nooo i lost a boy!" "dude they aren't space marines")

If the IG had an outflanking sentinel assault the other end of the conga line, it would then get pulled back 6 inches per assault phase until the klaw finally made it back there.

No problem with the tactic. He played to what he thought would work, and vs this apparent Mech Gunline I imagine it caught the IG player off guard.

If anything, maybe the IG player will think about maybe a Sentinel?

CommissarKhaine wrote:Either flame him (hell hounds would love this formatiion, or assault the middle or rear. If you feel like bering an a$$ yourself, tank shock the middle of the unit. No PK/ rokkits there, so your vehicle is safe. if his formation ends up out of unit coherency (which it will), he'll be spending his next turn regaining it. Then, do it again .

Don't they become fearless because of that mob rule they have (fearless when they have over 10 in one squad), they'd just curve around the tank according to the rules of passing a moral test when in tank shock.

If you template them, they go away from either end or wherever it wouldn't brake unit coherency. I think it could also work fairly well with Gaunts and Conscripts. Both can have a rule to make them comback if they're killed. Keep something that allows them to pass morale tests nearby and they might work a little better. Unlike the Orks a sweeping advance won't remove them as they'll just come back.

Easiest way is to assault it until it's sweaping advance. Or throw power weapons at it. Walkers would work best against these though. throw a sentinel at it and it's stuck until it dies.

I played this guy and his orks in the first round of the semi-finals this year. He seemed to be a very experienced player who really knew how to use cover and how to manuever his boys. And he most certainly was not a dick, in fact he was probably my favorite opponent of the tourney. The above seems like a perfectly fine tactice with its own weaknesses that, in the above game, seemed minimal.

As others have stated, there are advantages and drawbacks to this tactic.

Advantages
* It allows for you to close on your opponent while keeping the majority of your units in cover
* It prevents your squads from competing for tablespace on the assault -- fielding over 150 models makes space a premium.

Drawbacks
* Orks are best on the turn the charge, assaulting with only 4 boys is not nearly as effective as assaulting with 15.
* Being assaulted in the back on the congo-line pulls the entire squad back.
* The PK is only in the front of the line, a dread assaulting the rear of the line will keep the boys tied up for the entire game.

Okay, I am the ork player in the blue shirt.

This "snake" formation is used when I face a gun line that has little or no hand to hand capability (typically tau or imperial guard). Specifically, when facing guard, the only models that are effective are the nobs with PK, and the boyz with rocket launchas (if the guard player has a lot of LR tanks, with the 11 back armour, then most of the boyz are totally ineffective).

This formation is used to accomplish the following:

1. The line provides the minimum exposure to blast/ordnance/templates.
2. The line allows the ork unit to move towards the objective without entering difficult terrain, thereby getting to the opponent as fast as possible.
3. The line allows the nob to be the spearhead of the unit, thus getting his PK into combat against tanks as soon as possible.
4. The line allows the ork unit to control multiple objectives, quardrants, etc. as the formation covers a lot of ground (if necessary).
5. The line allows the ork unit to engage weak enemy units in hth, not win the combat on the charge, and hopefully stay in hth (thus avoiding being shot in the opponent's turn.
Typically, after each side consolidates 6 inches, the orks will win the hth handily in the opponent's turn, thus freeing me up to move during my next turn.
6. The line somtimes gives the unit cover as it does snake around terrain features.
7. The line is fast to move in a tournament setting where time is limited.

This formation has many weaknesses, as have been fairly discussed above.

I have played against the new guard codex on many occasions and my local guard opponent has proven to me that I can't run my ork mobs in large blobs as the combination of blast/ordnance/template weapons can wipe me out without any great effort. Therefore, I developed this formation in an effort to minimize the amount of damage that I take each round of shooting, and to improve my chances of getting across the board where my Nobz can do some damage to the tanks.

In order to be successful I believe that both army selection and game play are important (trumped only by Luck!). I believe this formation is a good tactic for orks (against guard gun lines) and there was no intent to abuse the rules or to be unfair to my opponent.

Smart tactic, but it has its drawbacks like all ideas

1: Assault the middle, leaving models too far away.

2: Pavane / lash the unit together then plate it.

3: daemons players or other assault orientated armies wont give a feth, and just assault with a nice bonus.

I know the ork player, he is one of the peole who play at my LGS, and he is no idiot. This tactic is clearly highly effective against gaurd players like the opponent he is playing. His lines allow him to neutralize every blast or template weapon the gaurd has, while spreading out enough to be able to catch him in a corner. And I would go on and inform everyone of its other purposes but the inventor has posted it already. Therefore, I shall address the clearly flawed logic of all nay-sayers who feel it necessary to flout their ignorance.
FOr anyone who has said the use of flamer templates is the key to unravelling this formation, I ask, have you measured a flame template recently? It's eight inches. And as this player is a highly intellegent and is always going to be spread out the maximum two inches. and with the given that a Citadel gaming base is one inch, this means that an eight inch templat can get a maximum of four models if he mis-deployed his models. The alternative is a tightly packed ball of orks that most playes use where the template gets twelve models. While the conga line does not eliminate the threat of templates, it is clearly the best alternative.
For anyone who claims that the simple answer is to assault the middle of the unit, I ask, how do you plan to get in the middle of the ork conga lines without having been assaulted already? Against one ork unit this is the answer. But you all forget that there are five more conga lines. To quote 300 "The strength of the ork is the ork at his side." And with the exception of Sly Marbro and a Calidus assassin, no unit can get to the middle of this ork army.
For anyone who suggested Sentinels assaulting the back of the unit, I ask how does this stop all of the army? I agree that this is a fantastically brilliant idea for stopping the one unit on the side, however it will not work if the ork player has anything kept back, or if he has multiple units, this will not be a huge impact. An ork player can give up a unit or two and not blink an eye.
For anyone who claims that their army has the perfect answer for this tactic and will dominate it if they ever see it, I ask, do you really think he uses this tactic in every game? An army that cant adapt is as useless as the person who designed it. CLearly an intellegent player changes tactics with every new oppenent, and i assure you, byt the Primarchs of old, this particular ork player is the definition of intellegence.
For anyone who has called this a cheesy move or a cheat or even bending the rules, I ask have you played in a tournament? In a tournament, people are there to play and play hard, and hopefully at the end of the day take home an award for being better at toy soldiers than the other grown men. And you do this however you can. If it's in the rules, do it. And if thats hard to swallow for anyone, DELETED BY THE MODQUISITION. This isnt a dick move, it's a smart one. And I know the two are hard to tell apart for most people but hey, if you're in the losers bracket it doesn't matter what the winners are doing does it?

the only time ive seen this used was when a guy used a bunch of gaunts to hold like 2 objectives at once and that was for a whole different story

As a bug player I don't conga line, but I do rely on cover. Mainly because I have to if I want to stand a chance. As I've found it really does leave you vulnerable to all sorts of things, especially jump troop assaults which can drag the entire line back away from the intended target.

an interesting tactic. i can only imagine the whining if i tried this on a club night!

Well, it's not only viable with horde armies.
I run my biker army with this tactic in mind sometimes. This is done by abusing the base dimensions.

Using layers of bikers, it gets the same result as for the orks. Cover saves for the whole army while not being IN cover.

My 7 Cents.

Would certainly be one good reason to always take a hellhound when playing as IG. Just the threat of tank shocking/ parking in the middle of the line would ruin the ork party.


Sliggoth

joaardvark wrote:I have played against the new guard codex on many occasions and my local guard opponent has proven to me that I can't run my ork mobs in large blobs as the combination of blast/ordnance/template weapons can wipe me out without any great effort. Therefore, I developed this formation in an effort to minimize the amount of damage that I take each round of shooting, and to improve my chances of getting across the board where my Nobz can do some damage to the tanks.

In order to be successful I believe that both army selection and game play are important (trumped only by Luck!). I believe this formation is a good tactic for orks (against guard gun lines) and there was no intent to abuse the rules or to be unfair to my opponent.

TheHaunted wrote:I know the ork player, he is one of the peole who play at my LGS, and he is no idiot. This tactic is clearly highly effective against gaurd players like the opponent he is playing. His lines allow him to neutralize every blast or template weapon the gaurd has, while spreading out enough to be able to catch him in a corner. And I would go on and inform everyone of its other purposes but the inventor has posted it already. Therefore, I shall address the clearly flawed logic of all nay-sayers who feel it necessary to flout their ignorance.

LoLz at people jumping out of the woodwork?

Obviously this "tactic" is of moderate value in certain situations, but it has it's foil as many posters in this thread have pointed out. No one is questioning the "legality" per se, but in reality, a majority of players would raise an eyebrow at this unorthodox method of movement. Depending on the density of terrain on the board, this could prove counterproductive, and may also run into problems with assault and moving through difficult terrain. (Check the YMDC thread!)

As far as maximizing cover saves, a far easier way to maximize the benefit of multiple cover saves seems to be running a big mek with KFF in a vehicle of some sort to extend his range, or just run da boyz behind the other boyz.

Even with the extra cover provided from such a conga line, a shooty mechanized guard army will have enough fire power and tank hulls to tank shock you and bunch you up (and out of cover) enough to shoot the crap out of you. As soon as your opponent Mech's up, the viability of this tactic will cease to be as useful. The same goes for an instance where your opponent starts including counter assault units like Ogryn, Straken, Rough Riders, or even Grey Knights.

So, anyway, it's an interesting evolution resulting from a local metagame, but nothing more.

TheHaunted wrote:I know the ork player, he is one of the peole who play at my LGS, and he is no idiot. This tactic is clearly highly effective against gaurd players like the opponent he is playing. His lines allow him to neutralize every blast or template weapon the gaurd has, while spreading out enough to be able to catch him in a corner. And I would go on and inform everyone of its other purposes but the inventor has posted it already. Therefore, I shall address the clearly flawed logic of all nay-sayers who feel it necessary to flout their ignorance.
FOr anyone who has said the use of flamer templates is the key to unravelling this formation, I ask, have you measured a flame template recently? It's eight inches. And as this player is a highly intellegent and is always going to be spread out the maximum two inches. and with the given that a Citadel gaming base is one inch, this means that an eight inch templat can get a maximum of four models if he mis-deployed his models. The alternative is a tightly packed ball of orks that most playes use where the template gets twelve models. While the conga line does not eliminate the threat of templates, it is clearly the best alternative.
For anyone who claims that the simple answer is to assault the middle of the unit, I ask, how do you plan to get in the middle of the ork conga lines without having been assaulted already? Against one ork unit this is the answer. But you all forget that there are five more conga lines. To quote 300 "The strength of the ork is the ork at his side." And with the exception of Sly Marbro and a Calidus assassin, no unit can get to the middle of this ork army.
For anyone who suggested Sentinels assaulting the back of the unit, I ask how does this stop all of the army? I agree that this is a fantastically brilliant idea for stopping the one unit on the side, however it will not work if the ork player has anything kept back, or if he has multiple units, this will not be a huge impact. An ork player can give up a unit or two and not blink an eye.
For anyone who claims that their army has the perfect answer for this tactic and will dominate it if they ever see it, I ask, do you really think he uses this tactic in every game? An army that cant adapt is as useless as the person who designed it. CLearly an intellegent player changes tactics with every new oppenent, and i assure you, byt the Primarchs of old, this particular ork player is the definition of intellegence.
For anyone who has called this a cheesy move or a cheat or even bending the rules, I ask have you played in a tournament? In a tournament, people are there to play and play hard, and hopefully at the end of the day take home an award for being better at toy soldiers than the other grown men. And you do this however you can. If it's in the rules, do it. And if thats hard to swallow for anyone, you probably shouldnt take your rainbow flag to tournaments anymore. This isnt a dick move, it's a smart one. And I know the two are hard to tell apart for most people but hey, if you're in the losers bracket it doesn't matter what the winners are doing does it?

I get such a kick that this is his only post (has strange feeling this is the ork player defending his actions even though they are legal and he has no reson to unless he thinks they are unfair also)
Still its easy to deal with if you just get some khorne bezerkers or assault marines

Battle Brother Loken wrote:I get such a kick that this is his only post (has strange feeling this is the ork player defending his actions even though they are legal and he has no reson to unless he thinks they are unfair also)
Still its easy to deal with if you just get some khorne bezerkers or assault marines

LOL, I second that. Anyway, contrary to what he/they think(s) is true, this tactic DEFINITELY doesnt work against IG gunline better than any other ork style of playing. To footslog that way towards opponent is to give opponent free rounds of shooting every turn. The situation is worsen when you have multiple of those formation. Blast templates will hit you no matter how they scatter .
And if you naively think that that formation can help to keep you in CC for another turn, you are again wrong. Due to the pile in rule, a minimum of 4 orks will be engaged. FYI, 4 orks on the charge is enough to win the combat against a troop of 10 IG guards, and force them to lose the combat and retreat.

To be honest, the next time you face an IG, think again. Nothing beats reaching them in the fastest way, with the most models.

I loled at this post.

Pretty amusing. But As others pointed out, other than making them harder to blast templates, the drawbacks outweigh the positives.

May not be perfect but that is why he evolves and is consistantly a top 10-15% GW tournament player.

alsycho wrote:May not be perfect but that is why he evolves and is consistantly a top 10-15% GW tournament player.

Then I think he needs to evolve faster

Dakkadakkadakka, it for situations like this that my LRBTs have 3 heavy bolters instead of hull mounted lascannons. It's interesting to see this tactic, I don't think I've ever seen it before. The way people are reacting to it makes me think back to the old 3rd Ed Rhino Rush. (I miss doing that) It's fun to see new and controversial stuff (new to me at least) don't get to heated about it all, it is after all a game.

Sanctjud wrote:Well, it's not only viable with horde armies.
I run my biker army with this tactic in mind sometimes. This is done by abusing the base dimensions.

Using layers of bikers, it gets the same result as for the orks. Cover saves for the whole army while not being IN cover..

That's quite clever Sanctjud.

I'll give it a shot this week and see how it impacts the survivability of my models from AP3- weapons.

As has been said many times previously, there are an equal ratio of drawbacks and benefits. I would not be at all bothered by this in game, and have even been guilty of a conga line once, with a brood of 32 spingaunts holding 2 objectives at once. Good move in the right situation.

joaardvark wrote:Okay, I am the ork player in the blue shirt.

This "snake" formation is used when I face a gun line that has little or no hand to hand capability (typically tau or imperial guard). Specifically, when facing guard, the only models that are effective are the nobs with PK, and the boyz with rocket launchas (if the guard player has a lot of LR tanks, with the 11 back armour, then most of the boyz are totally ineffective).

This formation is used to accomplish the following:

1. The line provides the minimum exposure to blast/ordnance/templates.
2. The line allows the ork unit to move towards the objective without entering difficult terrain, thereby getting to the opponent as fast as possible.
3. The line allows the nob to be the spearhead of the unit, thus getting his PK into combat against tanks as soon as possible.
4. The line allows the ork unit to control multiple objectives, quardrants, etc. as the formation covers a lot of ground (if necessary).
5. The line allows the ork unit to engage weak enemy units in hth, not win the combat on the charge, and hopefully stay in hth (thus avoiding being shot in the opponent's turn.
Typically, after each side consolidates 6 inches, the orks will win the hth handily in the opponent's turn, thus freeing me up to move during my next turn.
6. The line somtimes gives the unit cover as it does snake around terrain features.
7. The line is fast to move in a tournament setting where time is limited.

This formation has many weaknesses, as have been fairly discussed above.

I have played against the new guard codex on many occasions and my local guard opponent has proven to me that I can't run my ork mobs in large blobs as the combination of blast/ordnance/template weapons can wipe me out without any great effort. Therefore, I developed this formation in an effort to minimize the amount of damage that I take each round of shooting, and to improve my chances of getting across the board where my Nobz can do some damage to the tanks.

In order to be successful I believe that both army selection and game play are important (trumped only by Luck!). I believe this formation is a good tactic for orks (against guard gun lines) and there was no intent to abuse the rules or to be unfair to my opponent.

maximum respect for this .
I like this a lot, as it plays to your strengths and exploits his weakness's

st-rman wrote: it plays to your strengths and exploits his weakness's

You don't know what you are talking about, do you?

(1) He meant providing MAXIMUM exposure.
(2) W/o entering difficulting terrain, but making detours, which makes it even slower.
(3) Any kind of formation can allow the Nob to be the spearhead of the unit.
(4) "covers alot of ground, if necessary" - also means (1) IF necessary.
(5) Others have already explain why this will not happen.
(6) This is the ONLY main benefit of the formation, but nevertheless makes you exposed longer to fire, albeit in cover.
(7) Sorry, but I don't even consider this a valid point.

Davicus wrote:

st-rman wrote: it plays to your strengths and exploits his weakness's

You don't know what you are talking about, do you?

(1) He meant providing MAXIMUM exposure.
(2) W/o entering difficulting terrain, but making detours, which makes it even slower.
(3) Any kind of formation can allow the Nob to be the spearhead of the unit.
(4) "covers alot of ground, if necessary" - also means (1) IF necessary.
(5) Others have already explain why this will not happen.
(6) This is the ONLY main benefit of the formation, but nevertheless makes you exposed longer to fire, albeit in cover.
(7) Sorry, but I don't even consider this a valid point.

Those army's on that day with that terrain you can see the pictures, tell us how you would have done it.

st-rman wrote:Those army's on that day with that terrain you can see the pictures, tell us how you would have done it.

As others have pointed out, it would have been faster for the ork player to just run his squads normally and rushed forward. The "snaking" to avoid difficult terrain would have been problematic when actually assaulting, as most times you would be forced to take a difficult terrain check to get all models in BTB. Also, you don't get the full weight of your squad to bear in CC, which is where their strength lies.

The squads behind the first squad would have gotten a 4+ cover save anyway, and the ork army should have been running a KFF, or could have screened with trukks and Kanz.

The fact that this "tactic" may have worked in spite of itself still doesn't make it a viable strategy.

I am, quite simply, amazed at the number of people who are acting like this is new, novel, or even all that effective.

sourclams wrote:I am, quite simply, amazed at the number of people who are acting like this is new, novel, or even all that effective.

This.

I'll bring some real life stuff into this as this is the tactics section and not the rules. When troops are in a line like that and the point of fire is coming from (in this case) the front, its called being in enfilade (or enfiladed fire). Think of back in the days where you'd have 2 blocks of opposing infantry and they would stand there shooting at each other with their incredibly inaccurate muskets and whatnot. Now think of a cannonball going straight through their ranks and killing an entire line of them. Now think of something like a Lascannon beam tearing through several orks at once. Yummy!

As I like to play this game for fun, fluff is also pretty important for the people I play with. Congo line of Orks? Yeah ok... no.

I know someone will say "butt itz a turnament lololo" and to that I say... VINDICARE/TELION! Ok maybe not on a regular basis, haha. But in the end I will quote this which definitely hits the nail on the head:

Davicus wrote:(1) He meant providing MAXIMUM exposure.
(2) W/o entering difficulting terrain, but making detours, which makes it even slower.
(3) Any kind of formation can allow the Nob to be the spearhead of the unit.
(4) "covers alot of ground, if necessary" - also means (1) IF necessary.
(5) Others have already explain why this will not happen.
(6) This is the ONLY main benefit of the formation, but nevertheless makes you exposed longer to fire, albeit in cover.
(7) Sorry, but I don't even consider this a valid point.

Also what most other people have said as well...

This "tactic" was used against me when I played a combat patrol game a while ago. I lost because he took ONLY Ork boyz (there were like 60 of them or something) vs my small amount of Emperors Children. In any case, he rarely got a cover save, it took him much longer to weave through the terrain features, and it was pretty lame to play against since it was literally impossible for me to win (unless I rolled all 6s and he rolled all 1s... which didn't happen, sadly ).

The major problem with this tactic as it takes away the threat of the multi-charge. When an ork unit assaults one unit or tank, its not that big of a deal to lose just one thing. When they can spread and assault a few tanks or units at once, it can be devestating. As an IG player, the easiest method of countering this would be to throw sacrificial units at him to slow him down. It also allows a player to attempt to escape an ork unit by moving laterally away from it. It would be much more difficult to do so against a blob squad.

anticitizen013 wrote:

sourclams wrote:I am, quite simply, amazed at the number of people who are acting like this is new, novel, or even all that effective.

This.

I'll bring some real life stuff into this as this is the tactics section and not the rules. When troops are in a line like that and the point of fire is coming from (in this case) the front, its called being in enfilade (or enfiladed fire). Think of back in the days where you'd have 2 blocks of opposing infantry and they would stand there shooting at each other with their incredibly inaccurate muskets and whatnot. Now think of a cannonball going straight through their ranks and killing an entire line of them. Now think of something like a Lascannon beam tearing through several orks at once. Yummy!

As I like to play this game for fun, fluff is also pretty important for the people I play with. Congo line of Orks? Yeah ok... no.

Just as an interesting side note, this whole concept of deep columns of assaulting infantry was actually tried out and used successfully during the American Civil War by the Northern troops at one of the battles on the western front (Vicksburg, I think, but one of the western battles certainly). The idea was to counteract the effects of increasingly accurate musket fire from entrenched defenders by rapidly advancing across the field in a narrow and deep column of troops, rather than a line. On reaching the defenders the attack overwhelmed the defensive line at the point of contact, and past the defensive barricades the column would revert to a more normal line formation.

On a more on topic note, I'd hate to see this tactic used against me (since I play Guard), but at least having seen it described I can try to work out some counter-plans for it.

I played him at the last Atlanta Gamesday, and he was most certainly not a dick. He is also a really good player and has placed very high at GTs with the 3rd edition codex.

Goodness, folks.

A lot of the judgmental remarks made in this thread are kind of stunning. Conga lines are nothing new. They have advantages and disadvantages. If you haven’t seen them before, you most likely just haven’t played in many tournaments yet. It’s no reason to be calling people names because they play in a way you haven’t seen before.

I’m very glad to have this kind of thread, and would like to see more. On-table formations are perfect fodder for the Tactics forum. Certainly more germane than the usual unit armament discussions.

Ok guys, I just tried this. I will admit, it kept my boyz alive as they slogged down the board....but I was charging them into terminators to try and tarpit them, and the Nob was not close enough to get into the fight, and he didn't throw any Pfist attacks, so I lost combat, and took fearless wounds, and next round I was completely wiped out (this could also be that my friends terminators have insane luck, and I always seem to epic-fail to hit with my nob's fist, but anyways)

If I do this again, I'm putting the nob closer to the front....but I probably won't do it again (especially since I happen to like KoS ork lists over horde)

Edit: As to hisorically, Napoleon used to use lines as shock troops to beat the rifle broadsides of the british. The idea being that the british gunline could only kill the first man, everyone behind that man would then run in and stab everyone with bayonets AND cut the gunline in half. The long thin lines however were vulnerable to cavalry charges, a unit under a cavalry charge then would 'box up' so they couldn't be overrun by the horses, force the riders to ride around the square, where they could be short...but a packed square is vulnerable to artiliery shells, ect. (formations were key back in the time of single shot muskets)

Mannahnin wrote:Goodness, folks.

A lot of the judgmental remarks made in this thread are kind of stunning. Conga lines are nothing new.

Your comments are more stunning. No one says they are new

starbomber109 wrote:Ok guys, I just tried this. I will admit, it kept my boyz alive as they slogged down the board....but I was charging them into terminators

Boy, you didnt read the thread thoroughly, did you? You are against terminators and you did this?

I think some of you have missed the point of this tactic: this is to be used against pure gun-line armies which more or less have weak CC capabilities. Any army that can outfight Orks in CC, and there are several now, will hand an Ork player their backside on a platter if they try this.

As for the player's bona fides, IIRC, he has won 4-5 GT Overall's and/or Best Generals over the last 5 years or so, and almost always places in the top 10 when he goes to them. All with Orks.

People always want to know how the top players do it, and now you know a viable and effective Ork horde tactic versus gun-line armies.

Eldanar wrote:I think some of you have missed the point of this tactic: this is to be used against pure gun-line armies which more or less have weak CC capabilities.

Please read the thread before you 'think' the wrong thing. This point has already been discussed and justified.

Uriels_Flame wrote:I thinks he probably played other mates that weekend? Anyone else play him and lose to this tactic?

If so, I would like to know where they play so I can be a Pokemaster!

He plays at my FLGS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

labmouse42 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:Well, it's not only viable with horde armies.
I run my biker army with this tactic in mind sometimes. This is done by abusing the base dimensions.

Using layers of bikers, it gets the same result as for the orks. Cover saves for the whole army while not being IN cover..

That's quite clever Sanctjud.

I'll give it a shot this week and see how it impacts the survivability of my models from AP3- weapons.

And. . .are you talking about the voodoo formation, where one squad gives cover to another by weaving their bases?

Orkish wrote:

Eldanar wrote:I think some of you have missed the point of this tactic: this is to be used against pure gun-line armies which more or less have weak CC capabilities.

Please read the thread before you 'think' the wrong thing. This point has already been discussed and justified.

Obviously, some people don't get it, or there would not have been posts made discussing its use against terminators, marines, etc.

And judging by some of your commetns, I'm not really sure you understand the usefulness of this type of formation very well either.

Orkish wrote:
...To footslog that way towards opponent is to give opponent free rounds of shooting every turn. The situation is worsen when you have multiple of those formation. Blast templates will hit you no matter how they scatter .

We are discussing Orks, are we not? Blast templates are going to land on your models regardless of whether they are in clumps or conga lines.

Think of it this way: If you have 150 Orks separated into 5 mobs of 30, and someone shoots a bunch of template weapons at you killing 40 Orks, would you rather lose all 40 of those Orks from your two closest mobs (the ones in front and closest to the opponent), or would you rather have that spread over all 5 mobs somewhat evenly and still have 5 mobs of 20+ models, each of which has a model as close to the opponent as the prior two mobs earlier in the example?

And if you naively think that that formation can help to keep you in CC for another turn, you are again wrong. Due to the pile in rule, a minimum of 4 orks will be engaged. FYI, 4 orks on the charge is enough to win the combat against a troop of 10 IG guards, and force them to lose the combat and retreat.

You are overstating the effectiveness of the Orks in CC, and discounting the gamesmanship that can go into careful placement of models and selection of targets to assault. Particularly if the PK nob charges a tank, and then maybe the next ork does as well in order to daisy chain a secondary charge on a squad with the other two, etc. It is very easy to mitigate how much damage you do on the first round of a combat if you choose to.

And even if the mob wins by a huge margin and breaks the squad , etc., chances are there are 3-5 other conga lines doing the same thing all the way down the table. Very few gunline armies can withstand that kind of coordinated assault.

To be honest, the next time you face an IG, think again. Nothing beats reaching them in the fastest way, with the most models.

How about reaching them in the fastest way possible and then tying up whatever I reach for more than likely their turn only; instead of wiping it out on my turn, so that I am then left exposed to close range fire and/or counter assaults from my gunline opponent.

Lets see...if I have an Ork mob bundled up in a blob exactly 24" away from my opponents gunline; or if I have the tip of the conga line mob exactly 24" away from my opponents gunline, which is farther away? And the two mobs move 6" and roll exactly the same for their run/WAAGH rolls, which will get there first? It is kind of like asking which weighs more, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers...

This tactic mitigates damage from shooting, it mitigates the wipe out phenomenon, and at least for the lead Ork is no slower than running forward in a large bunch.

TheHaunted wrote:For anyone who claims that the simple answer is to assault the middle of the unit, I ask, how do you plan to get in the middle of the ork conga lines without having been assaulted already? Against one ork unit this is the answer. But you all forget that there are five more conga lines. To quote 300 "The strength of the ork is the ork at his side." And with the exception of Sly Marbro and a Calidus assassin, no unit can get to the middle of this ork army.

Not meaning to sound insulting, but you need to read up on a few more armies.

Dark Eldar wyches in a Raider have, at minimum, a 21" assault range, and a maximum of 32" assault range. Assuming a 12" deployment zone and/or use of a WWP, assaulting the middle or far end of the conga line would be relatively simple. Also, due to the spread out nature of the line, the wyches would win combat due to the limited number of return attacks and the loss of the orks' charge bonus and extra CCW against the wyches.

Other orks in wagons, especially if a Waagh! is called. This unit also has a 21-26" assault range and would probably win the assault.

Summoned lesser daemons from C:CSM.

Any fast-ish unit from the C:ImpGuard where Creed has given them the Scout (and then Outflank) ability, such as Roughriders.

I want to say there are some special characters or other rules out there that give certain units the ability to assault after deepstrike; that would work, too.

Eldanar wrote:Very few gunline armies can withstand that kind of coordinated assault.

Our Emperor's anti-fun shields cannot withstand Latin rhythms of that magnitude!

"It's a trap!!!"

Mannahnin wrote:Goodness, folks.

A lot of the judgmental remarks made in this thread are kind of stunning. Conga lines are nothing new. They have advantages and disadvantages. If you haven’t seen them before, you most likely just haven’t played in many tournaments yet. It’s no reason to be calling people names because they play in a way you haven’t seen before.

I’m very glad to have this kind of thread, and would like to see more. On-table formations are perfect fodder for the Tactics forum. Certainly more germane than the usual unit armament discussions.

This bears repeating. Conga lines are a tactic for use against a static-shooting oriented foe, among other things. It's nice to see actual tactics being discussed rather than the usual army list building that goes on in this forum.

I've played against this with KFFs, and it can be freakin' brutal. I love playing against "unconventional" tactics as it keeps things fresh for me.

I really dig this tactic, im gonna try it at my FLGS tonight if i get the oppourtunity, im kind of a noob but this seems like an effective tactic against some tau armies.

Eldanar wrote:We are discussing Orks, are we not? Blast templates are going to land on your models regardless of whether they are in clumps or conga lines.

Which is why this dumb formation has no benefit in this aspect at all.

Eldanar wrote:You are overstating the effectiveness of the Orks in CC, and discounting the gamesmanship that can go into careful placement of models and selection of targets to assault. Particularly if the PK nob charges a tank, and then maybe the next ork does as well in order to daisy chain a secondary charge on a squad with the other two, etc. It is very easy to mitigate how much damage you do on the first round of a combat if you choose to.

I am not overstating. This formation as mentioned above, is used against gunline army like IG. Due to pile in rule and unit coherency rule (2 inches betw models), the min number of boyz to engage is 4 (I hate to repeat myself for people who don't read previous post). 4 Boyz on the charge against 10 pathetic IG guards - compare their stats do your own math, or play more games

Eldanar wrote:And even if the mob wins by a huge margin and breaks the squad , etc., chances are there are 3-5 other conga lines doing the same thing all the way down the table. Very few gunline armies can withstand that kind of coordinated assault.

That may happen if you are playing a noob (sorry I don't play with noobs). An experience IG player will not open up multiple troops for you to charge at the same time. Most often, there will be at the maximum 2 troops open for you to charge. After you win the combat, chimeras (for e.g.) at the back do their free shooting for another turn. Again, play more games, especially against the experience players.

Eldanar wrote:How about reaching them in the fastest way possible

I always reach my opponent on the 2nd turn. Don't talk to me about fast unless this formation can do the same.


Alot of newbies may find success with this tactic, but I don't recommend it for more competitive level of gameplay.

I always reach my opponent on the 2nd turn. Don't talk to me about fast unless this formation can do the same.

As I'm not an experianced player, how do you always assualt on 2nd turn? i havent seen that yet.

Trukks can do that quite well. The problem is keeping them alive long enough to deliver the boyz.

Norwulf wrote:

I always reach my opponent on the 2nd turn. Don't talk to me about fast unless this formation can do the same.

As I'm not an experianced player, how do you always assualt on 2nd turn? i havent seen that yet.

There's plenty of armies that can do it. Since I didn't see his army mentioned (though his name is Orkish. . .) I would imagine he meant with orks. Let's say you're playing Pitched Battle (because it's easy in Spearhead or Dawn of War). You set up 12" off your board edge, as does your opponent (despite Yakface's recent poll). So, on a 48" board, both of your armies may very well be a mere 24" apart. Let's say Orks go turn 1. Move that mean ole Battlewagon 12" forward - surrounded no doubt by two other battlewagons, with a Big Mek safely embarked in the middle one, giving all three obscured saves. Your enemy moves also, either trying to counter your movement or brace for impact. Turn 2, you move your Orks another 12". Suddenly, you're in their front lines. You disembark out of the front of the Battlewagon (because you've left it open-topped, as it should be) and, since it is an assault vehicle, you move another 6" into assault. Hence, you've assaulted on Turn 2. Nearly always.

This is a valid and effective tactic in the right situation.

To arrogantly claim it is not and would never work on you is just childish and wrong.

Just becuase you don't understand how to effectively use the tactic does not invalidate it, it just proves that you do not have a real grasp of when/how to use it.

I have been playing a long time, and I use the conga line on gunlines when the situation is right. Nothing new, and with careful placement and precise movement, it just kills IG and Tau gunlines.

I think most people have negative remarks about it, is that it looks like a WAAC move, which is fine or bad in different environments.

There are competitive games and then there are friendly games, and everyone has different definitions of each.

The conga line is not realistic with fluff. Some people expect that in a game, others don't, it comes back to the, "what sort of game are you playing".

@puma713
I was not talking about the "voodoo" formation, whatever that may be.
Not the criss-cross whatever crazyness.

I was suggesting a sort of layering, it's basically just using
A. Terrain.
B. Units getting cover saves by being behind another unit.

Bikers abuse their dimensions and conga line behind terrain so that only 49% are seen at whatever nastiness they want cover saves from, then those that don't need to hid, deploy parrallel to the deployment line.
THen you have 51% of the next biker squad set up behind the first, and have 49" set up parrallel to the 'wing' of the first row, to extend out the 'screen'.

Basically you have the front that gets a cover save from the 50% rule, while you layer other squads behind it to get more cover saves.

This is used because getting cover saves in area terrain is a pain for bikers, literally.

If this is not to one's liking, one can simply just start in reserves and turbo on.. but when you want to start on the board it's an option to maximize durability of the bikers when they are most vulnerable.

Again, this is only based on bike hvy lists.

My 7 Cents.

Inigo Montoya wrote:
To arrogantly claim it is not and would never work on you is just childish and wrong.

LOL, maybe we are arrogant, maybe not. But at least I am confident that I have what it takes to be arrogant if I want to.

Inigo Montoya wrote:
Just becuase you don't understand how to effectively use the tactic does not invalidate it, it just proves that you do not have a real grasp of when/how to use it.

Rather than just assuming we don't understand what is going on, you shd take the effort to read what every1 has posted.

Inigo Montoya wrote:
I have been playing a long time, and I use the conga line on gunlines when the situation is right. Nothing new, and with careful placement and precise movement, it just kills IG and Tau gunlines.

Playing a long time doesnt count for anything, it's the number of games you play and watch that counts. I have had more than 300 games (well, I do play multiple games simultaneously sometimes) with my orks since 5th Ed rules came in. I have at least my gaming experience to back me up, and I don't talk c are a p.
feth

Number of games doesn't matter either if your playing the same small group over and over again. It's more like the number/type of players and armies that matters. Not the number of games themselves.

Orkish wrote:Which is why this dumb formation has no benefit in this aspect at all.

I am not overstating. This formation as mentioned above, is used against gunline army like IG. Due to pile in rule and unit coherency rule (2 inches betw models), the min number of boyz to engage is 4 (I hate to repeat myself for people who don't read previous post). 4 Boyz on the charge against 10 pathetic IG guards - compare their stats do your own math, or play more games

That may happen if you are playing a noob (sorry I don't play with noobs). An experience IG player will not open up multiple troops for you to charge at the same time. Most often, there will be at the maximum 2 troops open for you to charge. After you win the combat, chimeras (for e.g.) at the back do their free shooting for another turn. Again, play more games, especially against the experience players.


I always reach my opponent on the 2nd turn. Don't talk to me about fast unless this formation can do the same.


Alot of newbies may find success with this tactic, but I don't recommend it for more competitive level of gameplay.

I can only agree with Eldanar when you present your side of this like that.

Orkish, Let me (a player of 11 years with over 600+ games under my belt) explain some things that you might have missed.

1. Claiming that a conga line is more vulnerable to blasts is silly. A square shape is easier to hit as it doesnt matter what direction it is scattering, where as a line is harder to hit as a scatter in any direction other than along the line means you will miss more often, and even if you hit, the orks are still getting a 4+ (average) cover save with a max of 2-3 orks hit at most.

2. Assaulting 10 guardsmen with 4 orks is a good stratagy if you need to move your troops more. 4 orks might kill 4-5 guardsmen and only suffer 1-2 wounds in return, but lets look at the math.

Ork phase - move 6", run 6" (Thrakka Waaagghh) and assault 6" = 18" of movement regardless of combat resolution
Win combat = an extra d6 of movement.....Loose combat = Orks of that size are fearless
Guard phase
Orks in combat = no shooting at squad, Orks not in combat = 18" +d6" closer to your tanks than they were last turn, most probably still in cover.

So as you can see there is no down side to assaulting the guardsmen as even if they wipe out the guardsmen they are still MUCH closer to your tanks with a Nob with a PK, and shooting the squad will only be met with 4+ coversaves and wounded being pulled from the back of the unit.

3a.The Conga line is not for getting into cc with troops....its for putting a PK Nob in CC with your tanks.

3b. Maby you should play with Noobs more often, you might be surprized how often they come up with a tactic that you never would have thought of. Most of us as we get used to our armies get into bad habits and tend to become predictable. If a tactic is stupid and it works.....it wasnt stupid. There have been a few times that I thought I knew my army inside and out and then someone that had never seen my army before asked a simple question that would have me searching for my codex with an evil grin.

4. My Eldar can avoid you for 4 turns without trying, DE are even faster......dont talk to us about fast if all you have is trucks. The point of this statement is that certain tactics work against certain armies.....your trucks would never catch my Mech-Eldar....just as a Tank heavy gunline cant deal with Orks conga line-ing with cover. If the ork player was against Necrons I am sure this tactic wouldnt have been used.

5."LOL, maybe we are arrogant, maybe not. But at least I am confident that I have what it takes to be arrogant if I want to."
It doesnt take anything to be arrogant, other than being close-minded. and taking such a limited view of a tactic and not trying to find a way to use or improve on it is just a sign that you will be an easy player to beat after someone has played you once or twice.

Do some research on some of the fights between Patton and Romel in Africa.... you might be surprized at the "noobish" things they were trying, and how so many of them worked because one General didnt think the other would try something that crazy. (for special fun read about the "Ply-wood tank costumes")

Orkish wrote: I have had more than 300 games (well, I do play multiple games simultaneously sometimes) with my orks since 5th Ed rules came in. I have at least my gaming experience to back me up, and I don't talk s h i t.

Guys, clearly he has us all beat, I mean, he plays multiple games at a time. We should all just give up now.

DJ Illuminati wrote:Assaulting 10 guardsmen with 4 orks is a good stratagy if you need to move your troops more. 4 orks might kill 4-5 guardsmen and only suffer 1-2 wounds in return, but lets look at the math.

Ork phase - move 6", run 6" (Thrakka Waaagghh) and assault 6" = 18" of movement regardless of combat resolution
Win combat = an extra d6 of movement.....Loose combat = Orks of that size are fearless
Guard phase
Orks in combat = no shooting at squad, Orks not in combat = 18" +d6" closer to your tanks than they were last turn, most probably still in cover.

So as you can see there is no down side to assaulting the guardsmen as even if they wipe out the guardsmen they are still MUCH closer to your tanks with a Nob with a PK, and shooting the squad will only be met with 4+ coversaves and wounded being pulled from the back of the unit.

You don't know that flamers ignore cover, do you? Consolidating 6" don't help you to get away from the flamer templates. I m pretty sure you don't play enough against IG players, or rather the good ones.

DJ Illuminati wrote:The Conga line is not for getting into cc with troops....its for putting a PK Nob in CC with your tanks.

Doesnt matter tanks or troops, its alwaz the front line that you can engage, not much of a choice here.

DJ Illuminati wrote:Maby you should play with Noobs more often, you might be surprized how often they come up with a tactic that you never would have thought of. Most of us as we get used to our armies get into bad habits and tend to become predictable. If a tactic is stupid and it works.....it wasnt stupid. There have been a few times that I thought I knew my army inside and out and then someone that had never seen my army before asked a simple question that would have me searching for my codex with an evil grin.

I only choose the best players to play against. Well, sometimes I do play with random stranger, who claims they are experienced players with 11 yrs of exp, 600+ games clocked, but turn out to be as noob as you. In those cases, I have no choice but to finish the game. Otherwise, I make my every game count.

DJ Illuminati wrote:My Eldar can avoid you for 4 turns without trying, DE are even faster......dont talk to us about fast if all you have is trucks. The point of this statement is that certain tactics work against certain armies.....your trucks would never catch my Mech-Eldar....just as a Tank heavy gunline cant deal with Orks conga line-ing with cover. If the ork player was against Necrons I am sure this tactic wouldnt have been used.

I don't know why this point is raised, but I just assume is just another random bullsht from you.

DJ Illuminati wrote:Let me (a player of 11 years with over 600+ games under my belt)

In fact, I was quite amused that someone who claims to have that kind of 40k experience is actually commenting like a newbie one month into the game.


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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
Guys, clearly he has us all beat, I mean, he plays multiple games at a time. We should all just give up now.

Erm, I am not the only one who does that, I have seen many others do the same thing. Seriously, with all the waiting betweeen movement, shooting phases, I don't see the reason why not.

Thread temporarily closed due to multiple reports, whilst reviewing.

Other mods please leave reports up so I can reference.

EDIT: Unlocked. Private warnings have been given to the guilty. Lets all remember Rule #1: Be polite.
Thank you for your patronage.

i did try something similar to this tactic against shooty space marines. We rolled spearhead deployment and i put all my dudes in a forest in the corner, it was five trees or so spread out like the dots on the number 5 on a d6. It wasnt exactly a zigg zag "conga line", as mush as serpentineing thru trees for cover, thus getting the squad 4+ saves. I had my warboss and 10 boys running to the front lines and 10 boyz in the trees(all one mob). I tryed to conga/snake through the woods but in the end it just slowed me down. although im not naysaying this tacitc- i've only tryed it once, and not againts the best army to try it with. that was just my experiance this time.

Orkish wrote:Now this is a perfect example of talking s h i t.
You don't know that flamers ignore cover, do you? Consolidating 6" don't help you to get away from the flamer templates. I m pretty sure you don't play enough against IG players, or rather the good ones.

DJ Illuminati wrote:The Conga line is not for getting into cc with troops....its for putting a PK Nob in CC with your tanks.

Doesnt matter tanks or troops, its alwaz the front line that you can engage, not much of a choice here.

I only choose the best players to play against. Well, sometimes I do play with random stranger, who claims they are experienced players with 11 yrs of exp, 600+ games clocked, but turn out to be as noob as you. In those cases, I have no choice but to finish the game. Otherwise, I make my every game count.

DJ Illuminati wrote:Let me (a player of 11 years with over 600+ games under my belt)

In fact, I was quite amused that someone who claims to have that kind of 40k experience is actually commenting like a newbie one month into the game.

Here we go again, another little kid feels he has to be TFG to impress us......

1. Yes flamers ignore cover, however if they are in a line you are getting what, 4-5 guys per template if they are in a line......not quite enough to stop the green tide , nor is it the only squad doing this, so having a second squad shoot them after they consolidate only ensures that the second squad gets closer......I am not saying that there is no way to stop the tactic, just that it has reasonable risks.....if you cant handle losing a squad to get the rest of your army in where it needs to go then go play SMs

2. If it is a tank heavy army then I fail to see the down side of attacking tanks.....and tanks are so expensive that taking down a LR or two just made it worth the trouble of getting the squad in there.

3. You mean to say you play the best people in your area.......and that could mean anything..... my girlfriend went to a RTT at a town south of us and made 3rd place with a Witchhunter army that was just slapped together the week before......she is a good player, but not good enough to get 3rd like that, unless the other people there sucked.

4. I stated how long I have played and how many games, as that seemed to be your measure of how good a player is, I see now that you only regard people who agree with your narrow view of the game as being good players.

I am sad that you seem to have a grasp on how the game is played and yet you have trouble seeing the value or wisdom of this tactic. Just because you are one of the better players at your flgs doesnt mean that there is nothing for you to learn. Keeping your mind open to new ideas and tactics doesnt make you a Noob.......assuming you know everything does.

DJ Illuminati wrote:open to new ideas and tactics

I think the fact is you are the only one who thinks this tactic is new. Many people have tried this tactic, and the fact that it works against your friend does not neccessarily mean it will work against other more experienced players.

Theory wise, I don't even understand the soundness of your argument, so I shall not even comment.

Like what Sourclams & Mannahnin have pointed out, it's quite surprising you are commenting like this is something new.

Soundess is easy to judge.

1. Are his premises true?
2. Does his conclusion follow deductive from his premises?

If the answer to both is "yes", then the argument is sound. If the answer to either is "no", then it is unsound.

That said, I think it's important to note that tactics are contingent upon conditions. The tactic described in this thread has been noted to work under the condition of facing a static shooting force.

We've also noted that it's not new to the community at large, and that it's a bad idea under other conditions, such as facing a mobile assault force, or a mobile shooting force.

That doesn't mean it isn't new to someone (after all, it's useful to demarcate between historical creativity and personal creativity), or that reiterating it doesn't help beginners learn, or veterans brainstorm new innovations.

It's especially good in that someone is mentioning actual tactics, as opposed to doing strategy (list building), but I think that might have been mentioned already.

Nurglitch wrote:Soundess is easy to judge.

1. Are his premises true?
2. Does his conclusion follow deductive from his premises?

If the answer to both is "yes", then the argument is sound. If the answer to either is "no", then it is unsound.

hmm ok, thank you. In that case, I conclude that it is unsound.

Btw, if I had not misread, the discussion HAS ALWAYS been on playing against static gunline

Davicus:

So which is it? Are his premises untrue? If so, which ones? It only takes one. How does his conclusion not follow from his premises?

Also, someone earlier mentioned trying this tactic against a Terminator heavy force and getting pounded for it, I believe.

Davicus wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:open to new ideas and tactics

I think the fact is you are the only one who thinks this tactic is new. Many people have tried this tactic, and the fact that it works against your friend does not neccessarily mean it will work against other more experienced players.

Theory wise, I don't even understand the soundness of your argument, so I shall not even comment.

Like what Sourclams & Mannahnin have pointed out, it's quite surprising you are commenting like this is something new.

I am amazed at how you guys can read a sentence out of context and so blindly miss the point of what is being said.

I never said that this tactic has never been used, and I never said it is unstoppable. I am making comment at the fact that so many people are willing to ignore this tactic and claim it as a "noob" tactic instead of trying to adapt it and make it better. If we are to rid ourselves of old tactics completely then lets get rid of Rhino rushes and gunlines, both of which are old 3rd edition moves.....or do people still use them.

You were most correct when you said that you "dont understand".........so take a second to step back and see the point I am making and not try to nit-pick words and assume that I am awestruck and blown away by this tactic......just that I have a healthy respect for someone that is willing to use old/noobish tactics and make them work.


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Nurglitch wrote:Davicus:

So which is it? Are his premises untrue? If so, which ones? It only takes one. How does his conclusion not follow from his premises?

Also, someone earlier mentioned trying this tactic against a Terminator heavy force and getting pounded for it, I believe.

It may be a lost cause trying to talk sense to Davicus......take note that he and Orkish are from the same place and both started within 2 days of each other......they are either friends in RL or both are the same kid using a second account to make his first one sound respected by agreeing with himself......

I find it hard to believe that TWO Ork players would be so unable to see the value of the Conga Ork Line.

If it worked against the player in question clearly it was a good tactic at the time, any other judgment introduces too many variables to give any credence to.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:If it worked against the player in question clearly it was a good tactic at the time, any other judgment introduces too many variables to give any credence to.
Jack

So I see, if this tactic works against a newbie, it is a good tactic?

The fact that this tactic have had its success against some IG static gunline players does not mean anything. You might not even be playing against the right person. Winning or bullying a newbie means nothing to me. I have had success and failure with this tactic, and the determining factor was my opponent. I would not consider a tactic as a good one if it cannot work on a more competitive player.

As for Illuminati, I see your last post as a joke (on yourself) rather than a platform for discussion.

Davicus wrote:As for Illuminati, I see your last post as a joke (on yourself) rather than a platform for discussion.

He does have a point though!

Davicus wrote:

Jackmojo wrote:If it worked against the player in question clearly it was a good tactic at the time, any other judgment introduces too many variables to give any credence to.
Jack

So I see, if this tactic works against a newbie, it is a good tactic?

The fact that this tactic have had its success against some IG static gunline players does not mean anything. You might not even be playing against the right person. Winning or bullying a newbie means nothing to me. I have had success and failure with this tactic, and the determining factor was my opponent. I would not consider a tactic as a good one if it cannot work on a more competitive player.

By your logic then all tactics are noobish, as all tactics run a risk of success and failure, and all tactics use the opponent as a determining factor.

Gunlines have been around since the begining of this game, and some of the time they fail, and sometimes they work. If my opponent knows how to break the line then he can do it, it is up to me to adjust my tactics to counter him. Rhino Rush is another proven tactic that might fail if your opponent is prepared.......but the trick is to use tactics that your opponent ISNT prepared for.

The Ork-ga Line can work on a more "competitive player" just fine. Can it work everytime? No. Should you rely on this tactic everygame? No. But if the opponent built a list for a Tournament, then we can assume that he doesnt have the perfect defense to it as he would have brought an "all-comers" list, not just an anti-ork. Most lists are anti-MEQ and anti-mech, and neither are ideal for dealing with Orks. I would assume that there is going to be at least 1-2 players at any tourny that built lists that the Ork-ga Line would work great against.

Instead of just randomly claiming that a "better player" would shut this tactic down, try to remember that no list can be prepared for every possible action....and if an opponent is weak against a fast moving infantry with a decent cover save that he cant get a solid blast template on, then that sounds like a tactic that might be worth considering.

I beg you Davicus....tell me of a tactic that is flawless and cant be stopped by my opponent, I would love to see that.

DJ Illuminati wrote:By your logic then all tactics are noobish, as all tactics run a risk of success and failure, and all tactics use the opponent as a determining factor.

Don't you even read? The key point was "tactic that seems to work ONLY on the noobs". Your reading ability is definitely as limited as the soundness of your arguments.

DJ Illuminati wrote:No. But if the opponent built a list for a Tournament, then we can assume that he doesnt have the perfect defense to it as he would have brought an "all-comers" list, not just an anti-ork. Most lists are anti-MEQ and anti-mech, and neither are ideal for dealing with Orks. I would assume that there is going to be at least 1-2 players at any tourny that built lists that the Ork-ga Line would work great against.

I was right you werent cut out for a tourney. Any list that isnt build to be prepare against orks are going for a suicide mission, especially with the prevalence of ork players around for almost every tourney. oh, and please don't (in case you do) assume an anti-MEQ list cant be made to be prepared for orks.

DJ Illuminati wrote:Instead of just randomly claiming that a "better player" would shut this tactic down, try to remember that no list can be prepared for every possible action....

Are you even talking sense? Lists, at most, are prepared for against other lists. Lists, are never prepared for against possible actions. You, react to possible actions right during the game itself after seeing what opponent's army and deployment is all about.

Davicus, I know you are new here, but please go and read the rules

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

Davicus wrote:

Jackmojo wrote:If it worked against the player in question clearly it was a good tactic at the time, any other judgment introduces too many variables to give any credence to.
Jack

So I see, if this tactic works against a newbie, it is a good tactic?

See that's what I meant, you're introducing information not in evidence (the the IG player was a 'newbie') which leads to a circular argument:

You say this can only work on a new or inexperienced player and the only evidence you have to offer to that is that it apparently worked on this player...

A tactic can only be fairly judged in the exact circumstances of its use, and 40k is too variable to know everything about that game from the shots we have. So if this tactic worked at that time (and any others) then those times were good to use it.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:So if this tactic worked at that time (and any others) then those times were good to use it.

o.O Apparently, there wasnt many others to begin with. Even for this game, it was a failed attempt.

So I see, if this tactic works against a newbie, it is a good tactic?

i believe any tactic that wins you the game, is at the time, a good tactic. i played magic competitively for over 5 years and new players can come up with some surprising innovations, also some people are born naturals.

I think its im portant to concentrate on why the player employed this tactic:

1. he was facing a very shooty army with little to no counter assualt. He really didnt have much to fear if he could survive getting shot at for a turn or 2.
2. he needed to reach his opponent intact, so he found a way to take cover while reaching the enemy.

This tactic could be used in a variety of ways i think, it doesnt nescessarily mean it has to be in the shape of a conga line. It seems what the player was going for, was to hug cover and live long enough to punch those tanks.

Maybe I'm just ornery, but I'm still waiting for what part of DJ's argument was unsound.

Were the premises untrue? Or does his conclusion not follow from his premises?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Just for fun I convinced my friend (Frank) who plays Orks to try the tactic out last Saturday......

We went to our LFGS and just hung out until we saw a guy who was bulling some of the newer players (he was a good player, just TFG) with a Mech-SM army. So I told my friend about this little debate and how it shouldnt work on anyone but noobs (we both laughed) and decided to call the bully out. Frank challenged him to a blind-build (no idea what the other person is bringing) and agreed on 1500 points........

So with 5x30 (150 orks) man squads of boyz with a PK Nob leading the Conga line, a 15 boy Loota squad, and a Big Mek at the center of it all giving a 5+ cover to anything that didnt have cover at the time...........On turn 3 his entire army was in combat with troops and vehicles. He raped the SM player so bad that the bully just packed his stuff up on turn 4 and walked out. He refused to finish the game......

Seemed pretty effective still, and we all (everyone in the store) had a good laugh.

Now come the part where Orkish or Davicus will claim that this guy is a noob to fall for such a tactic, and that no one in the state of Florida is skilled enough to ever go to a tournament since the guy we played consistently gets 2nd-5th places at most of the RTTs and Ard Boyz games in our tri-county area.

For the rest of you reading this, I thought you might like to know that it not only works, but sometimes it puts a TFG in his place....and that makes it priceless....lol

DJ Illuminati wrote:Now come the part where Orkish or Davicus will claim that this guy is a noob to fall for such a tactic, and that no one in the state of Florida is skilled enough to ever go to a tournament since the guy we played consistently gets 2nd-5th places at most of the RTTs and Ard Boyz games in our tri-county area.

For the rest of you reading this, I thought you might like to know that it not only works, but sometimes it puts a TFG in his place....and that makes it priceless....lol

o.O So by the same logic, I could just post 10 other stories to justify that it actually didnt work out, and therefore the tactic is trash?

LOL, you are such a joke. I am indeed amused. Good effort.

Davicus wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:Now come the part where Orkish or Davicus will claim that this guy is a noob to fall for such a tactic, and that no one in the state of Florida is skilled enough to ever go to a tournament since the guy we played consistently gets 2nd-5th places at most of the RTTs and Ard Boyz games in our tri-county area.

For the rest of you reading this, I thought you might like to know that it not only works, but sometimes it puts a TFG in his place....and that makes it priceless....lol

o.O So by the same logic, I could just post 10 other stories to justify that it actually didnt work out, and therefore the tactic is trash?

LOL, you are such a joke. I am indeed amused. Good effort.

Actually no. The logic employed was.

Your argument: This tactic will only work against new players

Evidence presented: This tactic has been used sucessfully against a veteran player of the game.

Conclusion: This tactic will NOT only work against new players

Also maybe you should learn basic courtesy before you start referring to other posters as jokes and bragging. At the moment you come across as a perfect blowhard. I'm sure you're not really.

Beaten to the comment about basic courtesy. Took to long to type...hehe

As for the topic at hand a tactic is something that wins you a game. It doesn't matter if it should only work on "noobs". If it works and wins a game for you then it's a solid tactic. I personally only have the broadest outline of how my actual tactics will shape up before I am deployed. But my tactics change from turn to turn sometimes if it's needed. Basically don't knock a tactic if it works. Only knock it if it doesn't

Davicus wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:By your logic then all tactics are noobish, as all tactics run a risk of success and failure, and all tactics use the opponent as a determining factor.

Don't you even read? The key point was "tactic that seems to work ONLY on the noobs". Your reading ability is definitely as limited as the soundness of your arguments.

DJ Illuminati wrote:No. But if the opponent built a list for a Tournament, then we can assume that he doesnt have the perfect defense to it as he would have brought an "all-comers" list, not just an anti-ork. Most lists are anti-MEQ and anti-mech, and neither are ideal for dealing with Orks. I would assume that there is going to be at least 1-2 players at any tourny that built lists that the Ork-ga Line would work great against.

I was right you werent cut out for a tourney. Any list that isnt build to be prepare against orks are going for a suicide mission, especially with the prevalence of ork players around for almost every tourney. oh, and please don't (in case you do) assume an anti-MEQ list cant be made to be prepared for orks.

DJ Illuminati wrote:Instead of just randomly claiming that a "better player" would shut this tactic down, try to remember that no list can be prepared for every possible action....

Are you even talking sense? Lists, at most, are prepared for against other lists. Lists, are never prepared for against possible actions. You, react to possible actions right during the game itself after seeing what opponent's army and deployment is all about.

1. He has evidence that the tactic works against an experienced player. Your premise is flawed ergo your argument is flawed.

2. A tournament list will generally contain some method of dealing with an ork horde as it is a popular list in the meta-game at the moment. The IG player presumably thought that shooting them with tanks would do the trick. The ork player discovered a tactic that allowed them to engage the tanks with minimal shooting losses. It worked, against a similar IG army it would presumably work again. You argue that any smart IG commander would include counter attack flamer squads. I could equally argue that a smart IG player wouldn't run a gunline in the first place but would max out on vets in valks and vendettas. There is more than one way to run every army.

3. Lists factor in both tactics and organisation. A list made without consideration as to the tactics that will be used with it or against it is a poorly made list indeed. Lists are a seires of units that the players assumes he can combine with tactics to defeat a broad strategy i.e. he assumes that in a tournament setting he will encounter a mechanised army, a dual lash, a nidzilla, an ork horde etc. He develops his list to contain tools to deal with all of them. But is he developing his list to fight the list or the associated strategy with the list? If I know that castling or a refused flank will work well against an ork horde am I fighting the strategy of the horde or simply the mechanical elements of the horde? I am fighting both and make my list accordingly.

I can make assumptions about common lists and how they will typically be played. I cannot possibly predict every single strategy that might be employed against me and so I cannot design my list to account for them all. If you can I strongly advise you to join military intelligence and cease wasting your time playing WH40K.


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Davicus wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Soundess is easy to judge.

1. Are his premises true?
2. Does his conclusion follow deductive from his premises?

If the answer to both is "yes", then the argument is sound. If the answer to either is "no", then it is unsound.

hmm ok, thank you. In that case, I conclude that it is unsound.

Btw, if I had not misread, the discussion HAS ALWAYS been on playing against static gunline

Which is false?

Hulksmash wrote: It doesn't matter if it should only work on "noobs". If it works and wins a game for you then it's a solid tactic.

Cool, then by your definition, I cant deny it's a good tactic, as well as the fact that there are also tons of fantastic tactics around - that fulfils your criteria. Afterall, I might not even need any tactic to win a noob.

However, I am not interested in any tactic that I cant reliably bring to a tournament.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
Evidence presented: This tactic has been used sucessfully against a veteran player of the game.

I didnt know a random story of a big bully would make good evidence. It has, at the very most, amused me.

If your tournament scene is so static that any Tactic can be thought of as reliable I feel bad for you and your pool of opponents.

Good tournaments with good players ought to force you to find new plans frequently.

Jack

EDIT: for clarity

Jackmojo wrote:
Good tournaments with good players ought to force you to find new plans at every turn.
Jack

I am surprised you can't even tell the difference between a 'tactic' in mind before the game begins, and reacting differently each turn AFTER you have executed your tactic. If thats the case, I feel sad for you.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:At the moment you come across as a perfect blowhard. I'm sure you're not really.

Come on, don't contradict yourself

Pardon for the confusion, I was not meaning game turns. Just a turn of phrase (ha!).

Jack

Mod:

OK, everyone, let's remember Dakka rule no.1

Address the argument, not the man. No personal attacks.

Refer to my sig for a link.

I would say no "tactic" should be something you can reliably bring to a tournament. Like I said earlier I change my tactics sometimes twice in a turn. Based on how things develop and how the dice fall my tactics are constantly shifting.

Now if you meant strategy they that is different as most people build their lists around an overall strategy using tactics in game to accomplish their overall strategy.

If you think of your tactics as a toolkit that you use to accomplish certain strategic goals, then clearly there is no "Super Tactic", but just a collection that you pick and choose from when the time is right.

Wouldn't it be simpler to keep the Nob and rokkit boyz in the middle?

Since I was the one who posted the pictures and report orginally, I am hesitantly going to respond to some of the posts here. Granted I did eke out a win, but it was challenging in the extreme. Also, please realize that my army was built to handle orks by removing handfulls of them each turn. Yes, I didn't have much in the way of Counter assault units, but what good would one or 2 counter assault units have done? Take a look at the pictures and you will see just how many guys he had on the board.

Also, this tactic is not only for noobs. Its not a tactic I would personally run with orks, but I had never seen it employed beyond talk before I played it. The catch a guy off guard factor was high. I don't want to toot my own horn, but I am far from a newb player. I started in 1994 and have played ever since. I play tournaments regularly (I have won enough of them, but that is irrelevent) and know how to counter orks with guard .... shoot the crap out of them.

The problem here with this string approach of guys is one no one is seeing. If you have your guys all mobbed up and I drop 5 templates on them, I reduce that single unit down to a size where I could weaken resolve and flee them off the board. By him having them strung out my template only catches a few guys in the mob and keeps its number above 12, so it remains fearless. There is the advantage of this setup!

The major reason I had difficulty with this mission was that it was dawn of war! He got to go first and placed his first two conga lines to the middle of the board. With my deployment further back, it meant that it wasn't a minimum of 2nd turn charges for his first two mobs. One of the mobs also had a warboss on a bike set up with them, so again, another charge waiting to happen. With my guard shooting I was able to kill the boss and one conga line before it did much damage, but the 2nd was on my lines and I had to play damage control while the other 4 mobs of 30 advanced across the board.

@kilkrazy: LMAO!! love that pic. that chic looks tough!

@Drk-oblitr8r: it could be simpler depending on your formation, the terrain your playing with etc. sometimes its much simpler to use a mech with KFF, especially if your footsloggin thru morre open terrain. I myself really get a kick out of outflanking and shooting tanks in the butt when I can. I think in the situation described by the OP, the conga line thingy was a good move.

I was just thinking it would be easier to keep the PK Nob closer to the enemy, should they come close enough to assult, it would finish combat quickly, depending on who was assulting.

Application is the key. Any strategy is a good strategy if you apply it at the right time, and the right place.

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:Application is the key. Any strategy is a good strategy if you apply it at the right time, and the right place.

i heartly agree

So I tried this strategy a few times since it was brought to my attention and it is definitely an effective tactic. I will say no tactic is super effective in every situation but the truth is by having my orks conga line I can either tie up something big or take out something small with more models than I normally would have by then. It makes the mob more survivable by both minimizing template splash and providing themselves cover while at the same time providing cover to the rest of my army. I say 7 out of 9 thumbs up.