I've been a reader of White Dwarf for many a year now. I started collecting from the Ogre Kingdoms debut issue(302?), and bought as many back copies of the magazine as I could lay my hands on, as the previous 100 or so editions were pretty damn good and interesting. When I first bougth White Dwarf, it was gripping, I enjoyed the battle report style, and there were interesting army articles. But rather than discuss the slow degradation of White Dwarf, onto the topic at hand:- namely, Jervis.

Initially, he seemed a bit Paul Sawyer-esque to me, in that he was a veteran gamer of many years, and was clearly a well known figure around the studio. He started out writing some vaguely interesting artircles. But ever since he was included, like White Dwarf. There articles have slowly gone downhill in content, and anything worth reading. It's got to the point well all he does he ramble on about how awesome Games Workshop is.

My point is this. Is it time for Jervis's articles to be canned? These days, every time I open the magazine, I find myself dreading his article, and wishing the man would just go away already, rather than going on and on.

I want him fired anyway, White Dwarf back to its former glory would be a bonus.

White Dwarf is advertising copy.

i actually like standard bearer

Absolutely!

JJ is the last of a dying breed in WD, and he fulfills the rambling old timer act with gusto. Standard Bearer is absolute nonsense and one of the best reasons for not buying WD... ever. Most sane people will agree that it's a sales catalogue anyway, a fact which you and I might have missed when we initially got into the hobby. I was about 11 when I got my first WD, issue 193.
People on Dakka have debated his inclusion for a while now; some see it as a worthwhile and thought provoking read whilst others would rather see another article, any article, take its place.

What I find most annoying is that his articles have only one point. He uses three to four pages to state ''Terrain makes battles better'', or ''Characters models look great''. You'd have to be eleven to swallow that crap.

I once had a technology teacher renowned throughout my school for hellish rambling. People would sleep, eat, and listen to headphones covertly to ease the pain. He was pure JJ. Once, after a full hour and ten minutes, the bell went, and his closing words?

''So what I'm saying is, use colour in your work''.

Jervis' column isn't the reason WD has gone downhill. You should be looking more at the Editor of WD, along with the head of GW Marketing, as being responsible here.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Jervis' column isn't the reason WD has gone downhill. You should be looking more at the Editor of WD, along with the head of GW Marketing, as being responsible here.

Yes, but JJ has survived numerous past editors and still lingers like an bad smell. Standard Bearer is a glowing example of a continuously bad series in WD, whereas others have thankfully been put to the sword.

Ketara wrote:I've been a reader of White Dwarf for many a year now. I started collecting from the Ogre Kingdoms debut issue(302?)...

You started collecting White Dwarf the issue after I stopped. I stopped for the same underlying reasons you are thinking of stopping now. I blame you (and your ilk) for the decline in White Dwarf.

Did anyone stop collecting at issue 145 to carry this torch back a generation?

Issue 302 looks like a literary utopia to what the kids get now.

The Giant! issue was what around 310? I know the US issue was decent up until a few months before then. The UK issues were bad for a decent while before then I remember, so the obvious solution was to sack the US guys to bring the world into a suck alignment.

Although we all know WD suck now, this months wasnt bad, but Jervis, king of the rambly hobby police i think may have had his day.

Presuming that Jervis' column goes, do we really need more ad space in what amounts to little more than a sales catalog?

George Spiggott wrote:

Ketara wrote:I've been a reader of White Dwarf for many a year now. I started collecting from the Ogre Kingdoms debut issue(302?)...

You started collecting White Dwarf the issue after I stopped. I stopped for the same underlying reasons you are thinking of stopping now. I blame you (and your ilk) for the decline in White Dwarf.

Did anyone stop collecting at issue 145 to carry this torch back a generation?

I never collected it, but the last issue I bought for the content was about 112, the Spulk 1e extra floor plans. The mag was clearly a catalogue back then.

Then I bought the Tau Empire codex launch issue.

I used to collect them when I was a youngsta. Didn't have the internet until mid teens as we couldn't afford it. So it was the only way I could see pics of models. I don't think I ever actually read much in white dwarf, just liked the pictures. sad eh.

Anyway, the appeal of that magazine is lost on me now. When I can just...'log on'. ...'log on' and search for whatever ...brunette, redhead...too easy.

Space Hulk debuted in issue 113. I just looked at it upstairs. 112 premiered the Terminator squads, although a "turtle" model was shown a few months earlier.

Um, stop buying White Dwarf? Is it really that hard?

LAEVE JERIVS ALNOE!

In all seriousness, I find WD to be....

Decent.

I can understand where Jervis is coming from, but it seems that his rants could be more...erm... "interesting"

You could see where this thread was going to go from the first post. Out come the predigested comments - 'WD is a sales catalogue', 'Jervis should go' etc.

It's true that Jervis's column isn't particularly interesting. He's moved away from the relentless infomertials of last year to more game-related topics, but there's a feeling that he struggles to fill the column. It would be better if his column was an irregular feature for when he had something to say, or they had a mixture of people writing it. As for Jervis's bigger role within GW, I don't think those who like to blame him for everything that they perceive is wrong with GW have a clue what he does or doesn't do, or what kinds of external pressures he deals with. For all you know, he may be responsible for the rejuvenation of the Orks, the continuing expansion of their range of plastic kits and successful supplements like Apocalypse. The WH40k side of the hobby is in considerably better shape than it was prior to 5th Edition, and we're getting more new models then ever, and as far as I'm aware he has been instrumental in that. He may also be responsible for ensuring that low-selling armies aren't canned by the bean counters there, leaving us with nothing by Space Marines. I don't know if that is the case, but give the guy a break. The only real issue that can be laid at Jervis's feet is the unsatisfactory way they've dealt with the 5th Edition codexes, which are coming out too slowly. I know a lot of players hated the way he simplified the army lists, but in reality it was never as big a deal as it was made out to be.

As for WD, it definitely went into decline a couple of years ago, but as someone who's been buying them every month since before WH40k was released, I've seen several peaks and troughs in quality over the years. I have noticed a real improvement in the last year, from about the time the Ork codex was released (we even got free plastic minis when AoBR was released, and a poster when the Stompa came out). There's clearly been a change in editorial policy, with a wider range of articles and less stuff that's focused on selling the month's new releases.

That said, things have changed since what was arguably WD's heyday. I think the internet has dented WD's relevance. There was a time when new models appeared first in WD, but now that's rare. The hobby side has also been eroded by the internet, since they can cram a lot more information into their website than they can into WD (although that shouldn't stop them from including more articles about converting etc - I think it's still deficient in that regard). Remember too that GW now produces a lot more products for the hobby, including terrain and materials for basing, so there's less need for all the DIY advice that used to be included. Conversely, they only support 3 core games now, so there's less scope for all the add-ons that used to fill WD.

I also suspect that their resources are relatively limited, hence the reduced amount of fluff articles and one-off stuff. And they seem to prefer not to add rules, FAQ's etc to the core games the way they did in the days of Chapter Approved (everyone here used to complain about them then - funny how they're now viewed with nostalgia). The reality is, however, that WD has essentially been a sales catalogue since they stopped featuring their competitors' products. Other companies have learnt the hard way thay if you don't keep promoting your products your sales decline - many years ago, Airfix used to produce a magazine which covered all aspects of the hobby, and ultimately they discovered that it was costing them money, and they dropped it. However much some of you seem unable to accept it, GW has to promote its products in order to generate the sales that fund production of the models we all want.

Given that Jervis' rants already have people calling for his head, making them more "interesting" might lead to people coming out with torches and pitchforks...

I fondly remember the days of yesteryear of Standard Bearer. Every month in addition to waiting for the WD to arrive at the LGS so I could peruse it whilst scoffawing (that's scoffing while guffawing) I'd anxiously await the indignant WD threads to appear on Dakka vilifying Mr. Johnson. Truly it was a golden age where rules lawyers were ruining the game and the phrase "playing for fun" was not used ironically to mock casual gamers.

Issue #145 was crap!



Those new missions totally broke Space Crusade!

That's why #144 was my last one!

But that issue 145 also had the list for Tyranids... wait... did it... *checks* ... yes, it did! Screamer Killers, Hunter Slayers, Genestealer Magus', Squigs (!) and Mind Slaves! YEAH!

Ah yes, that list was genius. They even had models for mind slaves IIRC. Can't believe they made some specially. Where were they from?

Re: Jervis - Can't see him going anywhere for the time being unless he gets bored like Andy Chambers (be cool if he came back).

I never did manage to get any of the original metal Tyranid Warriors. Penty of the plastic ones and the later 2nd Ed metals, but never any 1st Ed metals. I'd like three of them. And the Squigs - what became of Ork DNA when mixed with 'Nids? Squigs! That's what! The fluff's changed since then, but it was fun. And the Squig models were awesome.

Oh, and that list had Zoats as well! How could we forget Zoats - armed with flamers and power fists and missile launchers and lots of other very Tyranid-esque weapons!

And Brood Brothers. And Hybrids. And Genestealers that could hypnotise you! Before the 2nd Ed Tyranid Codex came about, this was the list I used!!! Kinda difficult with the conversion of rules, but it worked well enough.

I have some sympathy for JJ. It can't be easy to grind out a couple of thousand words on 'the hobby' every month and make it sound new and interesting.

My point is this. Is it time for Jervis's articles to be canned? These days, every time I open the magazine, I find myself dreading his article, and wishing the man would just go away already, rather than going on and on.

That's also my wish.
His column is not worth reading, its very boring and its contribution to the Warhammer and LotR world is very small.

H.B.M.C. wrote:...And Brood Brothers. And Hybrids. And Genestealers that could hypnotise you! Before the 2nd Ed Tyranid Codex came about, this was the list I used!!! Kinda difficult with the conversion of rules, but it worked well enough.

That was the list I started with. I think I even used to have some of the metal tyranids too; though I think they were quickly replaced with the plastics when they came out. God... that's a long time ago

There might be fellow ex-pat WD readers here who share my views that Standard Bearer is a major reason for not buying WD anymore. I place it in the same mental bucket as adverts and LOTR articles. That's a good half of the magazine there.

There is no excuse. Other magazines, such as PC Gamer (off the top of my head) offer conistently humourous and innovative articles. Long gone are the days when WD was seemingly quite random; to me that was part of its past joy. Knowing a new codex is around the corner tells you that 99% of the following issue will be devoted to selling that race. Who ever heard of a new incarnation of a race losing their first battle report?

Andy Chambers was a great writer for WD as he didn't need to sell the models. Looking back, his Piscina campaign was a great read as were his thoughts on different armies. Even Allessio wrote an original article on the most outrageous army list possible, back when free thought was a possibility in the publication.

WD is dumbed down. The single redeeming feature is the 'Eavy Metal articles, which offer superb tuition. I wish the had been included when I had begun the hobby. It's beige content coupled with its outrageous price is an affront to the GW community.

***warning*** Tangent ***warning***

For those of you who play Warmachine/Hordes, what do you think of No Quarter? Is it as reviled as White Dwarf?

To be special and different, I actually quite enjoy white dwarf. The articles can be enjoyable, and the 'eavy metal tutorials have been decentas of late.

As for the new army always winning, I do have a theory about that. As the new force is nearly always commanded by the writer, they have had months to design tricks and tactics for the new book. The opponent has not, therefore, they are at a disadvantage as they have little idea what the designers plan will be.



Now I've just got to wait for the insults to start.

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:To be special and different, I actually quite enjoy white dwarf. The articles can be enjoyable, and the 'eavy metal tutorials have been decentas of late.

As for the new army always winning, I do have a theory about that. As the new force is nearly always commanded by the writer, they have had months to design tricks and tactics for the new book. The opponent has not, therefore, they are at a disadvantage as they have little idea what the designers plan will be.



Now I've just got to wait for the insults to start.

Also, forget ye not the arcane reality that is codex creep

H.B.M.C. wrote:I never did manage to get any of the original metal Tyranid Warriors. Penty of the plastic ones and the later 2nd Ed metals, but never any 1st Ed metals. I'd like three of them. And the Squigs - what became of Ork DNA when mixed with 'Nids? Squigs! That's what! The fluff's changed since then, but it was fun. And the Squig models were awesome.

I'm fairly sure I remember rightly that there weren't any. There were Termagaunts (Hunter Slayers), Rippers (Squigs), Genestealers (metal ones) and a Carnifex, but no metal Tyranid Warriors before the plastic (Space Crusade) ones.

I have a full squad of Zoats that I last used as Ogryns.

Chapter Approved era WD > Standard Bearer era WD, period.

You know what I still like in WD? The painting features on stuff like bronze oxidation, etc. That used to be my lest-favorite stuff, but everything else with actual gaming content has pretty much disappeared. Lame.

Good old Dungeon and Dragon get canceled in their prime, and White Dwarf limps along when it has no reason to exist. This, folks, is why big corporations suck at marketing gaming. Fortunately, it leaves room for groups like Paizo, Fantasy Flight and Privateer Press to break into the market that the behemoths fail to satisfy.

Jervis spews bland corporate slogans at a generation that has become inoculated to such BS. If Jervis's articles were targeted at 45-year-olds, they would perversely be much more effective (since they are written like a condescending version of the marketing one uses to sell cars or electronics to Jervis's generation, not for millennial-genners). Kids will just hit the off switch on the old guy who fails to cloak his marketing in something even vaguely resembling content. You'd think that GW would cut his column just to save cash on printing those extra pages. It's not like anyone would miss it.

I mean, normally I'm all for businesses cheerleading their products. But when it's done in a bait-and-switch in places where people really want useful content, it's plain disrespectful.

Thus, I don't buy WD anymore unless I see something I really like in the store copy. There are better places to spend our money, even within GW's product line.

Jervis may be a decent fellow, and I'm not judging him here. Just Standard Bearer, which is useless and insulting.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Issue #145 was crap!



Those new missions totally broke Space Crusade!

That's why #144 was my last one!

Hey, 144 was my first issue! I remember getting my mum to buy it for me. I was only nine. At the time I could only have it bought for me every few months (I seem to remember it costing 2.50 or some other astronomical price - this was back when 2000AD was 50p). I hadn't bought it for many years until last month when I picked up a copy for a plane trip. Dreadful. The only thing I found even remotely interesting or useful was an article about painting faces. I was somewhat spoiled by the fact that an ex-colleague of my mum's gave me a massive stack of WDs from the 80s; they're still a good read now (although the quality of the painting in the "Tabletop Heroes" column was laughable by modern standards).

George Spiggott wrote:I'm fairly sure I remember rightly that there weren't any.

There were. They were in that issue. First Tyranid Warrior models were metal ones with Boneswords and that's it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:I'm fairly sure I remember rightly that there weren't any.

There were. They were in that issue. First Tyranid Warrior models were metal ones with Boneswords and that's it.

There we go. Thank you Puma.

I'm sure there was an earlier one from before the WD list that looked like a giant termagaunt (not the Hunter Killer model) based on the picture in the Rogue Trader manual, but I can't for the life of me find a picture of it online... so I may be imagining it. Old age does that sometimes...

But yes. I certainly had that unit; you got three in one of those large solid plastic cases they did for the larger kits instead of a box or blister.

I started buying White Dwarf last May (it was a birthday present) and thought straight away Jervis was boring. But you have to cut him some slack, he has reached that old man time where the most simple things become a rambling of 'my best model' or 'time to use those old models again'. He shouldn't be fired, just suspended from wrirting articles in White Dwarf(for a long time). If sales improve greatly, then he should be stopped from articles all together. Not fired, because you don't fired your parents if they get a bit boring.

Parents are for life, not just for Christmas!

endtransmission wrote:I'm sure there was an earlier one from before the WD list that looked like a giant termagaunt (not the Hunter Killer model) based on the picture in the Rogue Trader manual, but I can't for the life of me find a picture of it online... so I may be imagining it. Old age does that sometimes...

You're not imagining it, I remember that model. about the size of a 28mm horse, verymuch like the RT picture, standing on it's middle (hooved) legs with it's rear limbs coiled up under it.

I might let my subscription run out this time. It's utter crap and mindless drivel.

G

Anti-Mag wrote:There might be fellow ex-pat WD readers here who share my views that Standard Bearer is a major reason for not buying WD anymore. I place it in the same mental bucket as adverts and LOTR articles. That's a good half of the magazine there.

There is no excuse. Other magazines, such as PC Gamer (off the top of my head) offer conistently humourous and innovative articles. Long gone are the days when WD was seemingly quite random; to me that was part of its past joy. Knowing a new codex is around the corner tells you that 99% of the following issue will be devoted to selling that race. Who ever heard of a new incarnation of a race losing their first battle report?

Andy Chambers was a great writer for WD as he didn't need to sell the models. Looking back, his Piscina campaign was a great read as were his thoughts on different armies. Even Allessio wrote an original article on the most outrageous army list possible, back when free thought was a possibility in the publication.

WD is dumbed down. The single redeeming feature is the 'Eavy Metal articles, which offer superb tuition. I wish the had been included when I had begun the hobby. It's beige content coupled with its outrageous price is an affront to the GW community.

To be fair, I don't know if having the "new hotness" lose on its first outing is a solid marketing plan - especially when this part of the marketing is most likely aimed at the younger segment of their customer base...

Tim the Biovore wrote:I started buying White Dwarf last May (it was a birthday present) and thought straight away Jervis was boring. But you have to cut him some slack, he has reached that old man time where the most simple things become a rambling of 'my best model' or 'time to use those old models again'. He shouldn't be fired, just suspended from wrirting articles in White Dwarf(for a long time). If sales improve greatly, then he should be stopped from articles all together. Not fired, because you don't fired your parents if they get a bit boring.

Brilliant!

Bring back Stillmania!

Bring back terrain in WD that isn't available in stores. I swear every battle they fight now is on a Realm of Battle Board.

There are lots of small fixes available to WD, and things like Standard Bearer are pretty boring and the designer's notebooks for new armies offer shockingly little insight, but the problem with WD is that there is no need to buy it.

Without gaming content, which means rules, why feel compelled to buy it? There are lots of other reasons to want it, but no reason to feel that its necessary.

GW got rid of chapter approved roughly around the same time that internet use became overwhelming in the hobby. No rules + Web 2.0 content everywhere for free makes WD a luxury.

Now, I understand that the CA era had it's downsides, so I figure make all the new stuff explicitly not for tournaments: make it apocolypse datasheets, opponents permission only special characters, campaign units, Planetstrike army lists, or a list of special wargear you can use in planetary empires.

Well, the only part worth to regularly buy WD are sections about (professional) painting.
The rest is absolutely boring.

Although, I must admit that the battle report of Space Hulk was very interesting.
But Jervis' comments were unnecessary.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Bring back terrain in WD that isn't available in stores. I swear every battle they fight now is on a Realm of Battle Board.

Oh come on. Only someone who really doesn't care about what their gaming terrain looks like (or is really desperate for something cheap) would call for WD-supplied terrain - which would be made of cardboard, and therefore inferior to the plastic terrain pieces that GW now produce. Besides, how is anything supplied as a freebie with WD going to be a substitute for their battle boards? If you don't like them, there are plenty of alternatives, from grass mats to cheap cloth.

Incidentally, this is the metal Tyranid warrior from WD145 (the ones pictured earlier were the first plastic version):

Jervis has always rambled. It's what he does! Back in the day he produced a column called "The J Files" (always known for their originality are GW...) for WD. It was pretty rambly even then!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the first "J Files" was in WD196 when he rambled about "Special Characters". Then in WD197 he rambled about "Tournaments"...

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose....

Polonius wrote:There are lots of small fixes available to WD, and things like Standard Bearer are pretty boring and the designer's notebooks for new armies offer shockingly little insight, but the problem with WD is that there is no need to buy it.

Without gaming content, which means rules, why feel compelled to buy it?

Because you're such a newbie to the hobby that you can still get something useful out of it. And you don't know any better.

In other words, like so many things in this hobby, it's now intentionally aimed under our heads. They don't change it because they don't really care if we read it. it's not for us.

The analogy's been made before, but we (meaning veteran hobbyists) really are like a bunch of abused women. We're so ready to take GW back because we know he really does mean well and we probably deserved the beating we got. If we can just change him, he'd be perfect...

There was never any NEED to buy White Dwarf. It's just that it simply isn't interesting anymore.

Anyway, the original question was whether you thought it was time the Standard Bearer article was removed or not, as opposed to 'Do you think WD sucks?'. I guess I should have seen that one coming from the start though.

The more veteran you get, the less there ever will be in WD to interest you.

As your modelling skills increase, articles on terrain building, painting and conversions are less and less relevant.

There is plenty of that kind of stuff on websites and blogs, and GW print their own "How To" books which are better value than WD.

There's no history to research.

WD aren't going to give away a lot of fluff they can sell in books and codexes.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Bring back terrain in WD that isn't available in stores. I swear every battle they fight now is on a Realm of Battle Board.

Terrain is very time consuming and the materials cost money. Imagine how many hours used to go into studio/staffers making a cool table/terrain for a WD batrep.

Why would GW pay employees to make stuff on their dime when they can have them use stuff that little Timmy will ask his mommy to buy for him?

Those days are gone...

number9dream wrote:

Anti-Mag wrote:There might be fellow ex-pat WD readers here who share my views that Standard Bearer is a major reason for not buying WD anymore. I place it in the same mental bucket as adverts and LOTR articles. That's a good half of the magazine there.

There is no excuse. Other magazines, such as PC Gamer (off the top of my head) offer conistently humourous and innovative articles. Long gone are the days when WD was seemingly quite random; to me that was part of its past joy. Knowing a new codex is around the corner tells you that 99% of the following issue will be devoted to selling that race. Who ever heard of a new incarnation of a race losing their first battle report?

Andy Chambers was a great writer for WD as he didn't need to sell the models. Looking back, his Piscina campaign was a great read as were his thoughts on different armies. Even Allessio wrote an original article on the most outrageous army list possible, back when free thought was a possibility in the publication.

WD is dumbed down. The single redeeming feature is the 'Eavy Metal articles, which offer superb tuition. I wish the had been included when I had begun the hobby. It's beige content coupled with its outrageous price is an affront to the GW community.

To be fair, I don't know if having the "new hotness" lose on its first outing is a solid marketing plan - especially when this part of the marketing is most likely aimed at the younger segment of their customer base...

Exactly. If I could predict lottery results like I could battle reports, I could afford WD.

The last WD (#230?) I bought was the one that had the Necron army list before the codex came out. If I want to look at a WD these days I just go to the LGS and read the one on the rack.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

endtransmission wrote:I'm sure there was an earlier one from before the WD list that looked like a giant termagaunt (not the Hunter Killer model) based on the picture in the Rogue Trader manual, but I can't for the life of me find a picture of it online... so I may be imagining it. Old age does that sometimes...

You're not imagining it, I remember that model. about the size of a 28mm horse, verymuch like the RT picture, standing on it's middle (hooved) legs with it's rear limbs coiled up under it.

Yes indeed. I checked rogue trader; There is a picture on page 103. As funny as it may seem, tha text under the picture reads: " Battle for geo-station erpes- Orks battle Marines". As if it wasn't there. Makes me wonder if it was forgotten there, or a piece of the scenery.

Edit: And on topic. I always felt standard bearer was filler, and steadily degenerating filler too, as such, I'd say standard bearer needs to be thrown out. But you never know, battlefield challenges may just be worth your ten minutes (Fat chance).

Flashman wrote:Re: Jervis - Can't see him going anywhere for the time being unless he gets bored like Andy Chambers (be cool if he came back).

Not trying to hijack this thread but, I thought Chambers lost an internal battle inside the company and he was let go. Last time I heard he works for Blizzard now,

What's WHITE DWARF?

Hahaha! I only bought White Dwarf issues that heavily dealt with the Tau which are like 2 issues. Back in 2001 when they first came out and the most recent was when the 4th edition codex came out.

I am enjoying the irony in the article being named Standard Bearer yet it seems that if anything the article is decreasing moral in the troops.

wuestenfux wrote:But Jervis is unnecessary.

Fixed it for you

Tailgunner wrote:Only someone who really doesn't care about what their gaming terrain looks like (or is really desperate for something cheap) would call for WD-supplied terrain - which would be made of cardboard, and therefore inferior to the plastic terrain pieces that GW now produce.

I've read your post over three times and I cannot for the life of me work out what you're trying to say.

CT GAMER wrote:Terrain is very time consuming and the materials cost money. Imagine how many hours used to go into studio/staffers making a cool table/terrain for a WD batrep.

Why would GW pay employees to make stuff on their dime when they can have them use stuff that little Timmy will ask his mommy to buy for him?

But they have terrain. They've got heaps of it. Did they throw it all away? What happened to all their non-ROB playing surfaces? Where did all their non-Citadel Woods trees go? Non-Planet Strike bunkers? They still have these pieces at the studio, yet they never seem to use them.

Here is what made White Dwarf a great magazine back in the day:

detailed batreps/
Detailed army lists and exciting battles that were not fabricated. I will always remember the one where it all came down to a grot versus a Space Marine biker and the grot won.

Chapter Approved/
New rules and special units for armies. I understand now that they are fully corporatized they have lost that flexibility BUT Jervis is not filling that gap. You are not going to find rules to play Cypher again anytime soon.

Background/
They used to have exciting articles about various armies' background.

Like people say, it used to be a magazine for the hobbyist but now it is a Rag to sell product. They should just mail out a catalog each month.

G

OT but egads, those old metal and plastic 2nd edition 'nid warriors were crap looking. Best looking minis for 'nids in second were the Hive Tyrant and the Screamer Killers.

And the Lictor was awesome. And the H-Gaunts were cool (even if the models were a BITCH to make stand up).

HI all.
The answer is in the small print...(under the issue number...)

WD used to be ' Games Workshops Monthly Gaming Supplement & Citadel Minatures Cataloge.'

Plenty of room for game devs and enthusiasts to talk about useful hobby related items in interesting articles.(Mike Walkers WH articles were exellent IMO. .)

Then WD became 'Games Workshops Monthly Citadel Minatures Cataloge.'

This limits articles to ' OUR STUFF IS GREAT, BUY OUR STUFF, ESPECIALY THE NEW STUFF!'

My favorite Jervis Ramble was the 'We made some great games so I am going to try to generate some interest in them.But they are now removed from stores and called 'specialist games'.(To stop kiddies buying them ,as they might detract from core game sales) .So I cant say they are better than the core games, ramble.

Why buy WD when you can get lots more softer toilet paper for ther same price?

TTFN
Lanrak.

Ok here we go:

1) Total lack of new background you used to get 3 pages long stories about characters when a new model came out.

2) Relating to the above, lack of text in general, stop filling pages and with pictures and write something!

3) Terrain articles, and I mean proper how to articles not, heres all the cool stuff we made one that their using these days

4) Silly stuff, Catachan Barking Toad anyone?

I think I can see what I'm liking NQ so much these days..

I can't find the first one I'm afraid, but here's the second J-Files from WD 197 (May 1996).

Back when JJ used to like Tournaments...

dannnnnnnnny wrote:I am enjoying the irony in the article being named Standard Bearer yet it seems that if anything the article is decreasing moral in the troops.

The Standard Bearer should increase the moral in the troops.
But the opposite seems to be the case.

JJ does not need to be removed...

They need some balance by having other articles each month on the same or similar topics with dissenting views, so it seems like there is actually some sort of valid thought and debate being given to the hobby.

I think WD is ok, better than it was.....2004-2007

The masterclass painting segments are great and very useful.

The other content is fairly uneven in usefulness or interest on a month by month basis, but its really good when they find some great, converted painted army and throw that in.

Sometimes the issue is worth it, sometimes not.

Battle reports and standard bearer are ok too, on a case by case basis.

When the issue co-incides with big product release it adds to the thrills of retail anticipation....

But the real good thing about WD is that its relatively cheap. So you can go to your local store for a look in and say hi to the crew and buy something and feel like a customer.

To actually put out money on some models is always painful, so the act of buying WD gives a way of participating in retail thrill without wallet pain.

It is pretty cheap just to look at what's new, look at what's happening and check if you can find any reason to be inspired and go paint and convert something. So as a catalyst for creativity its a useful buy.

OTG.

Saying it is "OK", and then looking at the price and buying it, is a special kind of fail.

I regularly buy WD mainly because I want to be kept informed about newer releases and painting stuff.
Not sure if the price is fair.

Aww, i used to love white dwarf, full of modeling tips and background stpries.
Anyone remember the one when a new Tyranid codex was released (i forget the edition) and most of the book was filled with a single story depicting the fall of an imperial world, from genestealer ambushes to the rippers eating everything. I think it ended with a guadsmen hiding in a fox hole and blowing his own brains out.

H.B.M.C. wrote:There we go. Thank you Puma.

Dude, those things were fit only for melting down, casting into bullets, and returning to the designer at as painful a speed as possible. Now someone ding me for internet toughguyhyperbole.

wuestenfux wrote:I regularly buy WD mainly because I want to be kept informed about newer releases and painting stuff.
Not sure if the price is fair.

On this one, seriously not trying to be an ass, but that's like paying to flip to their website. I did it for Dakka, but for GW.com? methinks feth NOT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fifty wrote:JJ does not need to be removed....

You remember how Old Yeller ended? You remember why it ended that way? Chew on that for a bit, see what you come up with. Not that I am advocating a terminal response, but it's a metaphor, alright?

Fifty wrote:They need some balance by having other articles each month on the same or similar topics with dissenting views, so it seems like there is actually some sort of valid thought and debate being given to the hobby.

while there's some good ideas in there, the stopped around your bit on dissenting views and possibly picked up again afterward. Dissenting views, and the reasonings behind the fact that they will never fething be seen in WD, are one of the penultimate reasons as to why sites like dakka are so important. Even other forums and sites that some frown upon and slag off (admittedly some really DO warm up the kiddie pool) are even further yings to the WD WTF.

wuestenfux wrote:I regularly buy WD mainly because I want to be kept informed about newer releases and painting stuff.
Not sure if the price is fair.


On this one, seriously not trying to be an ass, but that's like paying to flip to their website. I did it for Dakka, but for GW.com? methinks feth NOT.

I'll do my best to keep GW alive and kickin'.

Fifty wrote:JJ does not need to be removed....

You remember how Old Yeller ended? You remember why it ended that way? Chew on that for a bit, see what you come up with. Not that I am advocating a terminal response, but it's a metaphor, alright?

Never seen old yeller...

But I agree we'll never see any views other than JJ's. Thing is, if we want a wish list, a valid discussion on the pages of WD is only as impossible as the likelihood of JJ being removed altother. The removal of JJ and the addition of opposing viewpoints are equally unlikely.

Is JJ the chief designer (if there is something like this at GW)?

I doubt we will ever see much in the way of opposing views in the mag at all. It's a GW ad, at the end of the day. The only view it will logical purvey is "Buy more stuff now."

Exactly.

GW's main market and main audience for WD are the junior teen newbies for whom it is all new and exciting.

They don't know or care that much of the material is recycled because they haven't been around long enough to know. Also, their critical faculties are underdeveloped because they are young.

The only reason I buy WD is to see what the studio has done and not do it like them. Also, I read the back of the magazine to see what local tournies are being played since I do not have time to search on the internet for stuff in other states. I have to agree that a majority of the WD articles are just advertising for GW. There was an incident at the 2009 Adepticon awards on the Saturday Evening that sums it up perfectly. 11 PM at night after a full day of gaming which started at 8 AM the stupid GW sale rep droned on for almost 45 mins on the new stuff in the pipe from GW and BL which we all had seen three months earlier on Dakka and other sites. When he turned and said to the crowd, "You all do not seem to interested in this stuff." A lone gamer in the back of the room yelled at him, "WE HAVE THE INTERNET!" The GW sales rep spent a couple more mins and then turned the mic back over to the judges.

I have been buying WD since 1998 when I got back from Korea and enjoyed the articles with fluff and tutorials on the hobby. But when two pages are wasted on FW released which are three to six months old and the same pictures from the web site (which lately they have been posting alot and doing it horribly. Some pictures look like they just blew up thumbnails.) Well, I am done beating a dead horse.

Kilkrazy wrote:Exactly.

GW's main market and main audience for WD are the junior teen newbies for whom it is all new and exciting.

They don't know or care that much of the material is recycled because they haven't been around long enough to know. Also, their critical faculties are underdeveloped because they are young.

A fair point, but why is this the case? Surely a hobby this specialized should try and retain the core support it has created? It's a sad fact that WD has been relegated to a sort of promotional pamphlet; its longevity in peoples eyes is based on their age when they first bought the magazine.

The older players have much more of an income, so WD should cater for this. Instead, it is in a constant, circular flux. The lact of intelligent articles is an insult to those hobbyists who followed the magazine in their youth and this should not be the case.

A wide eyed newcomer to the hobby will find much more wide eyed wonder with an intelligent and original magazine than he will with one filled with pictures and adverts. Has WD never thought of upping its game to (gasp) increase readership through returning veterans?

grizgrin wrote:Dude, those things were fit only for melting down, casting into bullets, and returning to the designer at as painful a speed as possible. Now someone ding me for internet toughguyhyperbole.

Some people like nostalgia. Why else would I keep my Mk.I Land Raider?

God knows it's not because you can't afford the new one. You probably have 6.

The reason you still own a Mk1 LR is because they are not interested in keeping people in the hobby since you are less likely to buy a replacement. A stuck up soccer mom will throw $50 bucks at the FLGS if it means that her demon seed of a child will shut up and let her get drunk and make some bad choices with the UPS guy.

Kids and people starting out in the hobby make up a much larger share of the profit than older gamers with two or three older armies already. When a new toy comes out in your army you will by one or two. If it is just a newer version then most gamers might just pick up the box and then put it down because they can still play the one they have. A new player will buy one or more of everything because they have no clue at what works well or not. So, WD is geared toward new players that have just started or do not have much experence. That is why they only showcase the new army or the new uber unit since, "if it is in WD it has to be good." It is marketing 101.

Sidstyler wrote:God knows it's not because you can't afford the new one. You probably have 6.

*counts*

Two Chaos Land Raiders... two regular Loyalist Land Raiders, one old Crusader, one new Crusader, one Redeemer. Oddly the new Crusader I bought by accident. No really, by accident.

wuestenfux wrote:

dannnnnnnnny wrote:I am enjoying the irony in the article being named Standard Bearer yet it seems that if anything the article is decreasing moral in the troops.

The Standard Bearer should increase the moral in the troops.
But the opposite seems to be the case.

Morale refers to a group's inherent faith and belief in a cause or task.

Moral refers to principles of right and wrong.

Though I guess "moral" is sometimes used in a similar context as the first definition, except
then it's used as an adjective. "Moral victories," for instance, refer to intangible effects that
are simply perceived or felt.

However, if you want to say that Jervis is crushing your spirit, then you're talking about "morale."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niceas wrote:***warning*** Tangent ***warning***

For those of you who play Warmachine/Hordes, what do you think of No Quarter? Is it as reviled as White Dwarf?

Did somebody call for math?!

No Quarter is not Reviled. It's 7 dollars and it only releases every other month. The things
to look forward to in No Quarter are preview rules, painting/terrain articles, and the
background material for both the models and the IKRPG.

My favorite are their takes on providing background material.

The Gavyn Kyle files reveals the characters of the Iron Kingdoms through the eyes of
a master spy, Gavyn Kyle. Through interviews, stolen letters and copies of reports, he
prepares a dossier of a single Iron Kingdom character in his article (The Amon Ad-Raza
is a personal favorite. The reports were along the lines of "wtf this guy isn't wearing a
shirt and he's fighting warjacks!").

Guts and Gears is the other favorite. Sometimes they prepare cutaway artwork to
reveal the internal workings of the model in focus, they show alternate color schemes
on the model, tactics to use with that model, and in-depth backgrounds. It was in Guts
and Gears that I learned how Praetorian Swordsmen earned the double swords- they
defeated another Swordsman and take their blade as part of their reward and promotion
to the Praetorians.

Pendrake Encounters is okay, but I don't RPG much. Mostly the article was good for
laughs as the Cygnaran avoided danger but his assistants never made it out alive
when exploring and cataloging monsters.

I don't know if this can continue indefinitely (much like their model release schedule), but
it's well worth the seven dollars to read any text scripted by their lead writer, Douglas
Seacat.

Perhaps if the "Veteran" gamer crowd put their money where their mouths are, Citadel Journal might still be around today.

Get rid of Standard bearer, and get rid of Jervis completely. Standard Bearer is just propaganda. Jervis makes some appaling changes, then rambles for three or four pages in White Dwarf, trying to justify these changes and convince people not to get pissed off. Which, personally, just makes me more annoyed.
Remember the Blood Angles article? Where he tried to convince us that being hit with the bland-hammer was a good thing? Appallingly obvious double-speak. Jervis, black is not white just because you say it is. Give us back Chapter Approved, PLEASE, so those four pages can be spent fixing things instead of making excuses.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Perhaps if the "Veteran" gamer crowd put their money where their mouths are, Citadel Journal might still be around today.

I did, it isn't.

@George, unfortunately, one veteran gamer coughing up for CJ is nothing. GW needs enough vets to pony up so CJ generates an operating profit.
____

Samus666 wrote:Standard Bearer is just propaganda.

Really?

You don't say!

Next, you'll be telling us that WD is nothing more than a marketing rag that GW manages to convince the naive to pay money for...

JWDD, that's just really jaded of you to think man. lol

Let's be honest here. CJ became a dinosaur. It was the existence of websites like this that killed it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:God knows it's not because you can't afford the new one. You probably have 6.

*counts*

Two Chaos Land Raiders... two regular Loyalist Land Raiders, one old Crusader, one new Crusader, one Redeemer. Oddly the new Crusader I bought by accident. No really, by accident.

So you have 6 of the newer style land raiders? Ha, did I call that or what!

What do I get?

Not one of my Land Raiders, that's for sure!

And it's 7, not 6. I wasn't counting the Mk.I Land Raider in that listing.

Oh damn, by "old crusader" you meant the one with metal bits?

I was wrong then. I get NOTHING!

CJ a dinosaur? Well, it .... but.... maybe if....

Awe feth it. youre right.

Anti-Mag wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Exactly.

GW's main market and main audience for WD are the junior teen newbies for whom it is all new and exciting.

They don't know or care that much of the material is recycled because they haven't been around long enough to know. Also, their critical faculties are underdeveloped because they are young.

A fair point, but why is this the case? Surely a hobby this specialized should try and retain the core support it has created? It's a sad fact that WD has been relegated to a sort of promotional pamphlet; its longevity in peoples eyes is based on their age when they first bought the magazine.

...
...

Several reasons:

1. GW isn't the hobby. It's GW. It is only interested in promoting GW.

It doesn't make sense for GW to fill WD with articles on how to make a defence bastion out of papier mache when they can fill it with articles onhow to make a big defence bastion out of two GW bastion kits.

Anyway, veterans have already got the skills and knowledge to make their own defence bastion or they can find advice on the internet.

2. There's a limit to how much innovation GW can make in order to keep vets interested. The last new faction was 8 years ago. The game will only support a certain number of factions anyway, because there is a limited number of army styles, after which you have different shaped or coloured models doing the same thing.

The fluff can't change. The rules can't change much. They've been developing them for nearly 20 years, they should be about done.

3. Veterans have open eyes and can find innovation and different ideas in historicals, pulp games and lots of other places where GW doesn't compete.

4. GW knows that a lot of vets keep buying GW stuff anyway, despite all the complaints about prices rises and lack of codexes.

GW's strategy is to rejuvenate veterans' interest with expansions of 40K such as Apocalypse and Planetstrike, which create opportunities to sell new models and larger armies.

grizgrin wrote:CJ a dinosaur? Well, it .... but.... maybe if....

Awe feth it. youre right.

That fact pains me. I loved CJ, its what got me into the hobby. Still have all my copies. My favorite had to be that jungle base they featured. The one with the buzz-saw Chimera.

I got the one with the harlequin list many many moons ago. About as tourney legal as a wet sock, but hey, it looked great.

DD wrote:

Samus666 wrote:Standard Bearer is just propaganda.

Really?

You don't say!

Next, you'll be telling us that WD is nothing more than a marketing rag that GW manages to convince the naive to pay money for...