Man, when CSM came out I thought I had it all. Not in the codex, mind you - heck no. But the basic CSM. 15 points for Ld 9 [nice, since we can be run down and when reduced below half will keep running], frag and krak [used to have to buy those!], bolter, bp, AND ccw for great versatility! I mean a 10-man squad with 2 meltaguns cost me 170 points, and every model was versatile in weapon options and capabilities. I'd just have to pay 15 points if I wanted 1 more leadership and 1 attack, and if I wanted a power weapon, I'd have to pay 15 more. No problem. I used to be able to get a S5 power weapon for that many points, but hey it's not so bad.

Then I saw this new SW codex, and I looked at the grey hunters. Let's take a look at them.

Looks like they've gone the route of 5th and come with frag and krak. Mmk. Leadership 8, same as SM have always been, but hey they have ATSKNF, so they can never be run down and one last guy can still come take an objective if you leave him be. That's pretty darn good!

But what's this? They've all got acute senses.....seemingly for free, because they've already got everything CSM have but still cost 15 points! And....what the....Counterattack? Everyone has counterattack too? For.....for free? Well at least they still have to pay the same cost for special weapons. A flamer is still 5....no wait it's free. Heck all the weapons seem to be 5 points cheaper than for CSM, that's odd. Ah, but at least they have the same restrictions CSM have, in that you need 10 to get the second special weapon, which you then have to pay for, equal to the cost you paid for the fir.....wait....no, they get it for free? Someone just.... trades a bolter, and gets any assault weapon for free?

So now.... where chaos paid 170 points for 10 guys with 2 meltas, these grey hunters now pay 155, and in addition get ATSKNF, Acute senses, and counterattack. Holy crap. Well, at least if they want someone kitted for close combat, they're going to have to pay 15 points for that extra attack, and then pay more to give them decent weapons. .....Wait what this wulfen thing? 15 points gets.... oh, not 1 more, but at least 1 more, replacing their attacks with d6+1 and giving them rending?


Let's check out the breakdown.

15 points gets either marine w/ Ld 9 and bp/ccw/bolter, or the same points gets the same guy, Ld 8 but ATSKNF, acute senses AND counterattack.

10 points gets a meltagun, 10 more gets a second - compared to 5, then 0?

And 30 points buys an extra attack and ld [can still get run down though] with a power weapon - or 15 for LOTS of extra attacks and rending, so now you can take down anything but a landraider without reducing your initiative, if lucky.


WOW. What a unit. I'd spam the HELL out of grey hunters for that kind of cheap, incredible versatility and reliability. Rapid-fire some orks, then count as charging when they come at me, striking first? Heck yeah!

Yeah, maybe I will start doing counts-as SW with my chaos from now on. At least now I can build a customized character with a backstory and character behind his equipment loadout.

Well, I'd love to jump onto the band wagon too, but how is this different than every new codex coming out.

We don't have enough exp. with it, but the 'codex creep' seems to be always the case.

I guess what I'm saying is..."What's New?"

Go with Cult troops like plague marines and be happy.

Or fall into GW's trap and go SW:codex count as CSM.........../shrug.

My 7 Cents.

Well, as is often said, it's wrong to compare two units (no matter that they're very similar) without looking at the context of the army.

I mean, Space Wolves are supposed to be a low model count army of expensive specialists. That's why they get more cool things and cost fewer points.

Wait... what?

When C:SM came out, it was fairly balanced. They got some stuff for free, but HAD to take 10 men to get it. And they actually cost a bit more than 15 points, which just pays for the seemingly free veteran sergeant. But they had bolter and pistol, lacking the ccw, so chaos had an advantage there. It was pretty much balanced.

This, though....

I don't want to complain about Grey Hunters and their relatively cheap equipment and upgrades.
This is what to expect when a new codex comes out.

Orkestra wrote:Well, as is often said, it's wrong to compare two units (no matter that they're very similar) without looking at the context of the army.

I mean, Space Wolves are supposed to be a low model count army of expensive specialists. That's why they get more cool things and cost fewer points.

Wait... what?

With their troops.

Grey Hunters are awesomesqauce, dirt cheap and a bargain no argument there.

But the rest of the list contains such goodies as 60pt terminators, 270pt spec chars you need to field in order to unlock the army you would like to, etc.

The core troops are so cheap because most of what the wolf player wants to use is so awesome but so expensive.

(although why long fangs went down in pts is a bit of a mystery to me)

Trust me, wolf forces will be small and outnumbered even with the cheap ass hunters.

And the free special weapon is irrelevant since most people will want to add a WG and still fit in a pod or rhino.

And acute senses is pretty much useless btw.

You are forgetting a few things here....

CSMS get icons which make them more customizable (most take icon of glory)

Wolf guard battle leaders have to join the squad if you want champion level cc which means you CANNOT take a special weapon and mount up in a rhino... pretty big deal imo.

Chaos can get a champ and 3 (2+ combi) special weapons..... grey hunters can get 1 and a wolf guard leader, or 1 and a combi, or 2 and a 3 atk p wep or a 1 atk fist with no ld boost...

Counter atk is pretty good no doubt but to say that grey hunters make csms look crappy makes you sound like one of those typical cry babies that spring up before the new codex is even out....

Acute Senses is basically crap. For how often it gets used it should be free.

After playing with the SW codex this past weekend (rednekgunner works at a flgs, so has access to the store copy), we came to some important conclusions:

1) If you actually put much (say, more than 5-10%) of the shiny-new-expensive-uber stuff in your army list, You're Doing It Wrong.

2) If you want to play an all-droppod MEQ force, and you're not playing SW, You're Doing It Wrong.

1230 points gets you 60 grey hunters in drop pods, alternating between 3 squads of twin-flamer/powerfist and 3 squads of twin-melta/power weapon. Every squad can kill a tank, every squad can decimate a uit of infantry, every squad can score, every squad is incredibly self-sufficient... and you've got 60 guys in power armor.

With that core in place (or 4 squads below 1000 pts/5 squads below 1500), it almost doesn't matter what you spend the rest of your points on. Squads in rhinos (or rhinos with a LRC or two) will cost a bit more, but you still have an incredibly strong foundation to build on.

If you've ever wanted to play drop-chaos, but don't want to use apocalypse/FW rules for dreadclaws, this is your huckleberry.

If I see a SW list that spends 200+ points on a character, or fields a lot of wolfguard, or does anything other than max out on grey hunters, I am absolutely unconcerned.

@CatPeeler:
You raise and smash my expectations of the SW codex.

Sounds like an interesting several months.

Troops are the back bone of the army, I'm glad GW is buffing them more and more.

My 7 Cents.

The codex should trigger a second orgy of pod-buying, if nothing else...

Sounds pretty... interesting. Can't wait to see what they do to nids now...

1 (2 for 1st round of combats) atk p fists sound like a bad idea to me. Not sure why you would give them p fists...

Krootman wrote:1 (2 for 1st round of combats) atk p fists sound like a bad idea to me. Not sure why you would give them p fists...

The fists are there so that the non-melta squad can still take out a tank, if need be.

The squad with dual meltas gets 1 power weapon, so that they can take a decent chunk out of an enemy squad. The squad with dual flamers should have *already* taken a decent chunk out of an enemy squad, so the fist may not even need to swing.

The drop pod can actually fairly easily be converted into what looks like a Dreadclaw drop pod [it lacks the Iris hatch on the bottom, but that's on the BOTTOM, so not much of an issue]. I plan on doing this.

@Krootman are you seriously saying I should pay 40 points for a single-shot combi weapon? That's how much an aspiring champion with one of those suckers costs. A squad with 2 meltas and the IoCG [to somewhat compare to ATSKNF] is 180 points, and if you add the champion JUST for the combi-weapon in there, that's 205.

Grey Hunters get 2 meltas and one guy toting d6+1 [+1 more when charging or charged] rending attacks for 170. The squad's already good to go at this point. A few dual-flamer squads with some dual-melta squads, all landing in pods and shooting you, waiting and ready for you to charge them so they can fight you in hth, is a scary idea.

As far as characters go, though, I'm pretty happy with Logan. He does a lot, he fights hard, he can take a lot, and he costs a lot. As it should be. Abaddon, though, just hits hard [when not stabbing himself in the face] and is tough. With not a single army-affecting special rule, he's not worth his price tag. Logan's ability to unlock the all-terminator army is again a huge boon for CSM counts-as dreamers. Since wolf guard terminators can take combi-weapons, CSM can even have their entire army stay WYSIWYG while using the wolf codex.

Its kind of a nitpick but I was disappointed they changed the Capacity of Drop Pods for Wolves just so you could not have 10 Greyhunters and a Wolfguard with a H. Weapon.

Meh its a minor nitpick

Hey, at least it gives some appearance that they're trying to balance stuff.

As stated, though - 10 wolfguard with special weapons and a wulfen mark in the unit is fairly self-sufficient.

Ah, for the IG then an allied inquisitor with a psychic hood and mystics is a must have then...stick them close to a basilisk or a LR or a demolisher....and watch the sparks fly...

I wonder - in the case of a drop pod, the marines themselves are not arriving via deepstrike - they disembark from the drop pod once it's landed.

So mystics can't really direct someone's fire at the marines, can they? Only the drop pod.

Interesting question and probably a case for YMDC.

no you can..it's in the FAQ, either the GW one or the INAT...you can direct the fire AFTER the transported unit disembarks, either at the pod or the unit...

Yeah the Greyhunters for their points are one of the best infantry units in the game.

found it...page 31 of the INAT FAQ 2.2....

INQUISITORIAL HENCHMEN (pages 13-15)
DH.15C.01 – Q: How does the Mystic’s ability function against a Space Marine unit that arrives via Drop Pod and then splits into combat squads?
A: After the units have disembarked and been split, the ‘free shots’ provided by the Mystic are taken at either the Drop Pod or at one of the two disembarked units [clarification].

Aye, the Daemohunters FAQ clarifies it, too. So...at least a possible way of dealing with drop-podding grey hunters early.

Oh lawdy,quit your bitching they're just marines with 1 extra attack,jesus christ.

@Krootman are you seriously saying I should pay 40 points for a single-shot combi weapon? That's how much an aspiring champion with one of those suckers costs. A squad with 2 meltas and the IoCG [to somewhat compare to ATSKNF] is 180 points, and if you add the champion JUST for the combi-weapon in there, that's 205.

Well normally you take the champ for the power wep/power fist to lend some combat power to your squad... I would not take the champ just for the combi weapon. Look at it as sort of a bonus. For 10 points its not all that bad.

Grey hunters are good, but their restrictive options prevent them from being the be all end all of troops that csms pretty much are right now.

Again though... why would you take a power fist and pay 25 (assuming the cost stays the same as the other books) points for 1 atk (2 in 1st round of combat).....seems like a huge waste.......

Will people ever stop moaning every 5 mins?

You pay 170 points for that right?
Lets see what us BA players get.

Special weapons - can take up to 2 plasma pistols at 15 each!
Thats it.

10 men - 250 points.
Weapons - bolt pistol + CCW
Wargear - frag + krak
Rules - ATSKNF, combat squads

Transport - free rhino or pod


So, look at this, stop moaning and live with it.

As has been said, but I will put it more succinctly.

- 10 GH + 2 Specials + PF = Rhino but little assault power
- 10 GH + 2 Specials + 1WG + PF = No Rhino/Pod
- 9 GH + 1 Special + 1WG + PF = Assault power for loss of free special
- PF + Mark of Wolfen = Illegal
- Mark of Wolfen + anything else = More vulnerable in assault

You can't have your cake and eat it too. The transport dilemma is intentional and does make GH go from a 'WTF!?!' rating to a more realistic 'Good'.

Lurker wrote:As has been said, but I will put it more succinctly.

- 10 GH + 2 Specials + PF = Rhino but little assault power
- 10 GH + 2 Specials + 1WG + PF = No Rhino/Pod
- 9 GH + 1 Special + 1WG + PF = Assault power for loss of free special
- PF + Mark of Wolfen = Illegal
- Mark of Wolfen + anything else = More vulnerable in assault

You can't have your cake and eat it too. The transport dilemma is intentional and does make GH go from a 'WTF!?!' rating to a more realistic 'Good'.

I couldn't have said it better, this is exactly the reason CSMS are still the best basic troop in the game.

Krootman wrote:
I couldn't have said it better, this is exactly the reason CSMS are still the best basic troop in the game.

Bah! I wouldn't go that far!

Lurker wrote:

Krootman wrote:
I couldn't have said it better, this is exactly the reason CSMS are still the best basic troop in the game.

Bah! I wouldn't go that far!

Massed csms rape massed orks

so csms>orks

Guard vets are really ace but if they get into combat they are dead, cant say the same about csms.

and well the rest really arn't worth brining up.... Maybe sisters but they can't have 2 melta guns!!!! (10 sisters with a book/flamer/heavy flamer sure is sexy though!)

SO BAM CSMS WIN!

Spellbound wrote:Hey, at least it gives some appearance that they're trying to balance stuff.

No, it gives the appearance that they're incompetent. Identical models in different armies should function identically.

Redbeard wrote:

Spellbound wrote:Hey, at least it gives some appearance that they're trying to balance stuff.

No, it gives the appearance that they're incompetent. Identical models in different armies should function identically.

No this time it actually looks like they tried to keep spacewolves in check. From a common sense standpoint it may seem stupid but from a games design perspective it looks like (as it has been for since the eldar codex) that gw is finally getting their sh*t together (with the exception of marines)

Krootman wrote:

Lurker wrote:As has been said, but I will put it more succinctly.

- 10 GH + 2 Specials + PF = Rhino but little assault power
- 10 GH + 2 Specials + 1WG + PF = No Rhino/Pod
- 9 GH + 1 Special + 1WG + PF = Assault power for loss of free special
- PF + Mark of Wolfen = Illegal
- Mark of Wolfen + anything else = More vulnerable in assault

You can't have your cake and eat it too. The transport dilemma is intentional and does make GH go from a 'WTF!?!' rating to a more realistic 'Good'.

I couldn't have said it better, this is exactly the reason CSMS are still the best basic troop in the game.

Um.... chaos suffers the exact same problem, but each individual model sucks. *note: By comparison to a grey hunter. Basic CSMs are actually quite good.

10 guys, 2 specials, no AC = rhino but little assault power. less than SW might I add [chased down, no counterattack]
10 guys, 2 specials, AC with some weapon = rhino but still little assault power. ACs suck and really don't add much for their cost [45-55 minimum including marine]
9 guys, 1 special, character = rhino but still little assault power, because sorcerors and chaos lords really blow. Undivided lord's decent, but they all have the STAB FACE penalty]

I'll take 2 meltaguns or flamers and a mark of the wulfen please. Good shooting, excellent close combat, for only 170 points.

Yes, I understand BA get screwed. But you can grab a SM codex, call yourselves BA, and still do fine. Yes, having your own codex is nice and it'd be better if it was good. But at least the fallback is still decent. Chaos has no fallback. Imagine burning your BA codex, never being able to use it at all, and the SM codex sucking. That's what we have right now.

The SW codex just brings back all the things chaos lost. It's a welcome addition. Now we can have the characterful, varied, interesting but still viable armies of old. Sure, we can have a 270 point monster character, backed up by tooled out aspiring champions that cost almost 100 points each. It might not be the best thing for a tournament, but it can still be workable and we can have fun doing it. This codex is a godsend, it just brings questions of balance, relative point costs, and wth was GW thinking with the world wolf power!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:
No, it gives the appearance that they're incompetent. Identical models in different armies should function identically.

I'll take my machine spirit, 12-model landraider for CSMs please

10 guys, 2 specials, no AC = rhino but little assault power. less than SW might I add [chased down, no counterattack]
10 guys, 2 specials, AC with some weapon = rhino but still little assault power. ACs suck and really don't add much for their cost [45-55 minimum including marine]
9 guys, 1 special, character = rhino but still little assault power, because sorcerors and chaos lords really blow. Undivided lord's decent, but they all have the STAB FACE penalty]

I dont see how the ac is bad.... hes the same as a vet sge and gives you access to a combi weapon. (which he can take and not lose an atk in cc) Those restrictions you listed are only if you chose to have them. Ill take my 2 flamers ac with combi flamer and p wep in a rhino with an icon anyday of the week.

Sure greyhunters are cheap but are limited. Chaos can be just as cheap as ghs but are not limited, and can get more upgrades if they chose.

I stand by my assumption that Chaos marines are better then grey hunters.

The aspiring champion is bad because he costs 30 points before you even purchase him anything.

A grey hunter costs 18 points for roughly the same ability as an AC.

I honestly see some competitive wolf lists running 5 man grey hunters with MoW, a cheapish Wolf Guard, and one special weapon in razorbacks.

willydstyle wrote:The aspiring champion is bad because he costs 30 points before you even purchase him anything.

A grey hunter costs 18 points for roughly the same ability as an AC.

I honestly see some competitive wolf lists running 5 man grey hunters with MoW, a cheapish Wolf Guard, and one special weapon in razorbacks.

Your forgetting the ld boost and the +1 atk he brings to the table as well.

Grey Hunters are 15 points. I meant Wolf Guard. A wolf guard has almost exactly the same abilities and function as an aspiring champion, yet is 12 points cheaper.

willydstyle wrote:Grey Hunters are 15 points. I meant Wolf Guard. A wolf guard has almost exactly the same abilities and function as an aspiring champion, yet is 12 points cheaper.

but you have to factor into that cost the lost special weapon, which just about evens them out imo.

Not when you consider my post which was talking about 5 grey hunters+ wolf guard in a razorback. No special weapon lost because you're not taking a full capacity unit.

willydstyle wrote:Not when you consider my post which was talking about 5 grey hunters+ wolf guard in a razorback. No special weapon lost because you're not taking a full capacity unit.

I was comparing the 2 units as a whole. I can't comment about your unit idea until I actually see the codex which will be tonight, so ill post my thoughts about it latter.

It really makes me wonder if there is a explanation in the Space Wolf codex on why exactly their drop pods are capacity of 10 and not 12.

There really isnt any logical reason are they using older Drop Pods or something.


I vote this will be errataed. Someone copy and pasted the wrong crap.


edit:

Okay I have not perused the codex but from my understanding you pay for the first special then the second special is free.


I agree though

5 Greyhunters ; Special Weapon + Wolfguard in Razorback is going to be annoying to face. Its cheap too.

I think the Drop Pod and Land Raider transport capacities will not be errata'ed. Even if they didn't mean for it to be, I don't think they'd fix it now, it goes against their usual response - ignore it. It may be a deliberate nerf since GHs get a free second special at 10 men. You can't stick 10 GHs with 2 specials and a plasma pistol, a WG with a combi-weapon, and a IC in a pod or Raider. Instead, you have to give up the second special to add the WG and/or the IC.

Its just arbitrary. It makes no sense fluff wise or otherwise.

You could still take a Redeemer Landraider, which carries 12 models.

At any rate the 2 flamer, AC w/ combi flamer power weapon CSM squad costs 200 points. Grey Hunters with 2 flamers, Mark of the Wulfen, and a rhino costs the same. Guess who's going to get to use their flamers, then charge?

Or drop the mark of the wulfen and take 2 plasmaguns, drive around and gun the CSM down while staying well protected.

Spellbound wrote:Guess who's going to get to use their flamers, then charge?

both?

Hollismason wrote:
Its just arbitrary. It makes no sense fluff wise or otherwise.

It was done because gw rightly thought that grey hunters with 2 power fists/ weps and 2-3 special mounted in a rhino would be a bit overpowered......

Krootman wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Its just arbitrary. It makes no sense fluff wise or otherwise.

It was done because gw rightly thought that grey hunters with 2 power fists/ weps and 2-3 special mounted in a rhino would be a bit overpowered......

It is simply a bad design decision. If they really were concerned that GH Squad w Specials+"Sergeant"+transport would be "too powerfull", they should have adjusted the point costs. We really ( seriously! ) do NOT need another Codex with errant wargear!

A-P wrote:

Krootman wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Its just arbitrary. It makes no sense fluff wise or otherwise.

It was done because gw rightly thought that grey hunters with 2 power fists/ weps and 2-3 special mounted in a rhino would be a bit overpowered......

It is simply a bad design decision. If they really were concerned that GH Squad w Specials+"Sergeant"+transport would be "too powerfull", they should have adjusted the point costs. We really ( seriously! ) do NOT need another Codex with errant wargear!

Even if they raised the points to bring it in line with csms it would have still be under coasted for what it can do. This was the right way to do it, they would have had to make wolf guard cost so much that they would be unplayable. I would much rather have different wargear if it helps balance armies.

The arbitrary, anti-fluff decision was making the SM pods hold 12 guys when the thing clearly only has seats for 10 people.

I don't see what all the hubbub is about. Grey Hunters are worse than Tactical Marines.

Fetterkey wrote:I don't see what all the hubbub is about. Grey Hunters are worse than Tactical Marines.

Because yet again a other Chaos player isn't on the top of the cheese board anymore.

A Chaos unit has several benefits over a Grey Hunter one. For example, it can take a Sergeant without using an Elites slot. It can also take a Mark, and can have both a Sergeant and two special weapons. That's without even getting into Plague Marines and the other "special troops" that Chaos can field.

Fetterkey wrote:A Chaos unit has several benefits over a Grey Hunter one. For example, it can take a Sergeant without using an Elites slot. It can also take a Mark, and can have both a Sergeant and two special weapons. That's without even getting into Plague Marines and the other "special troops" that Chaos can field.

Hey, so can Space Wolves!

Logan Grimnar = an extra troops slot provides sergeants to all your squads.

Sergeant and 2 special weapons.... so can grey hunters, you realize. You can have 2 special weapons, 1 guy with d6+1 rending attacks, and another guy with 2(3, counterattack) power weapon attacks.

Marks = IOCG, or just choose the appropriate cult squad instead.

Cult squad = I'm going to have so many more grey hunters than you, armed with FNP-ignoring weapons, that you'll just be bogged down by bodies if nothing else. Or heck, I'll just add a Lone wolf here or there, who rerolls his misses against your T5 guys and has wound-rerolling wolf claws!

I love lone wolves Not overpowered, just.... design-a-character, and loses you no kill points.

I don't think taking a 250+ point character in order to allow your Sergeants to use Troops slots is exactly ideal. Further, the Wulfen option seems unimpressive, and giving a special melee weapon to a model with 1 attack on profile also doesn't wow me. These weapons are barely worth their points on models with two attacks, after all!

Lone Wolves seem great in KP scenarios. Sadly, that means they are great only 1/3 of the time.

They are still a contesting unit that the opponent has to deal with.

My 7 Cents.

Dealing with a lone Marine is trivial.

But you still have to unless you give him free reign.
He's still taking some sort of fire away from the other squishies...the kind that score maybe.

/shrug.

Just looking at it at face value.
In addition you have to cause enough wounds to down him, I belive he has EW.

My 7 Cents.

I dont get why youd complain chaos marines get HUGE bonuses over wolves in other areas:

They have cheap cheap terminators that can all take combiweapons, a 2+/4++, chainfists, heavy flamers, etc. Mind you these upgrades cost points but you can get a really nastily effective CSM termy squad for under 200 points. can wolves do that? Can anyone else do that?

Chaos marines get more special weapons in their list than anyone else other than guard. All their troops can get two, their elites (chosen) get 5, their heavy support get 4, and their fast attack can get 3 I think (raptors used to?)

Chaos marines have troops that have a 3+ and fnp, like holy crap really? And can get 2 special weapons+pfist and not need 10 models to do it?

Lash+bash still works on grey hunters or any footslogger marine army

Defilers will ruin a grey hunter squad unless they pop it with melta fire, theres no way I'd rely on 1 pfist attack vs it.

I think when wolves fight CSM, optimal on optimal builds, CSM can still crush the puppies. Time will tell but thats my prediction.


It wont matter anyway guard is the master race of 5th ed!!!!!!

thanatos67 wrote:I dont get why youd complain chaos marines get HUGE bonuses over wolves in other areas:

They have cheap cheap terminators that can all take combiweapons, a 2+/4++, chainfists, heavy flamers, etc. Mind you these upgrades cost points but you can get a really nastily effective CSM termy squad for under 200 points. can wolves do that? Can anyone else do that?

Chaos marines get more special weapons in their list than anyone else other than guard. All their troops can get two, their elites (chosen) get 5, their heavy support get 4, and their fast attack can get 3 I think (raptors used to?)

Chaos marines have troops that have a 3+ and fnp, like holy crap really? And can get 2 special weapons+pfist and not need 10 models to do it?

Lash+bash still works on grey hunters or any footslogger marine army

Defilers will ruin a grey hunter squad unless they pop it with melta fire, theres no way I'd rely on 1 pfist attack vs it.

I think when wolves fight CSM, optimal on optimal builds, CSM can still crush the puppies. Time will tell but thats my prediction.


It wont matter anyway guard is the master race of 5th ed!!!!!!

Wow justin you kinda sounded like a nub for a 2nd, talking about defliers and chaos terms...who takes them lawl! but you saved yourself with your final statement.

Chem channons still kill them all the same!

Krootman said it best and first, so I'll just give him a thumbs up.

Question for CatPeeler though: I take it Ld8 is good enough for making most of the Grey Hunter's Counter-Attack leadership rolls. What happens when they fail?

This post made me laugh. Like, seriously laugh.

thanatos67 wrote:I dont get why youd complain chaos marines get HUGE bonuses over wolves in other areas:

They have cheap cheap terminators that can all take combiweapons, a 2+/4++, chainfists, heavy flamers, etc. Mind you these upgrades cost points but you can get a really nastily effective CSM termy squad for under 200 points. can wolves do that? Can anyone else do that?

Cheap Cheap terminators that can all take combi-weapons? How....how many points, exactly?

Let's go back in time a bit. Long ago, you could take chaos chosen terminators. They ended up costing around 30 points. Then you could buy them all a veteran skill, like I dunno, counterattack, for 3 points. And then combi-weapons for 5!

Now, chaos termies cost 30, and still get the 5 point combi weapons. Score! Wolf Guard terminators? .....33, with counter-attack. And....5 point combi-weapons? Holy crap! 2+ 4++ chainfists eh? Well it just so happens wolf guard terminators can take chainfist/storm shield for 2+/3++ chainfists! Wow! And can wolves get their squad for under 200 points? Why, you betcha! They can just take 3 or 4 if they want, just like CSM!

thanatos67 wrote:
Chaos marines get more special weapons in their list than anyone else other than guard. All their troops can get two, their elites (chosen) get 5, their heavy support get 4, and their fast attack can get 3 I think (raptors used to?)

Sorry, that was something they took away from raptors. Along with veteran skills [like, you know, counter-attack], hit and run, and daemonic visage. All their troops can get 2 special weapons - so can wolves! Their elites get 5? Ok fine. But their elites pay even more points for, meh, a leadership boost and infiltrate really. I'll give you the chosen. Heavy support get 4, good good. What good does all this do when the wolves are in combat with you?

But I'll concede this one. While the troops don't have anymore than the wolves do, chaos can 1-up them in overpriced elites slots, and non-scoring heavy support. More special weapons on basic guys, that's what chaos is known for now.

thanatos67 wrote:
Chaos marines have troops that have a 3+ and fnp, like holy crap really? And can get 2 special weapons+pfist and not need 10 models to do it?

Sure they can! And those squads are incredibly tiny and are praying the cheap space wolf units aren't carrying 2 plasmaguns themselves. Yeah, the wolves need 10 models to do it.....OK! I'll take AS MANY of those incredibly efficient models as I POSSIBLY can, and just spend the points I save elsewhere. 5 PM with champion, 2 plasma, powerfist is what? 185 points? 10 grey hunters with 2 plasma is 160, with a mark of the wulfen is 175. 10 points more, why don't I take an icon of the wolf, so if I ever go into close combat I've got good insurance that things won't go all too badly for me? I don't even need those other 7 models in the unit for anything other than ablative wounds. My plasma will kill your PM just as easily as you kill grey hunters, but I've got more. Even without the champion, 5 PM with 2 plasma is 145 points. Ridiculous.

thanatos67 wrote:
Lash+bash still works on grey hunters or any footslogger marine army

Ehhhhhh maybe. You forget they have a 4+ cancel psychic power rune weapon. Several actually. Or the special character that's 3+ cancel psychic power. Is there a rule in the rune weapon entry that says they don't stack? Because if there isn't, like there is for psychic hood, they'll get multiple rolls to cancel. And if you get through, the unit in question might have a character with a wolf tail talisman in there, which also resists psychic power effects on a 5+. They've got saves on saves against psychic powers.

thanatos67 wrote:
Defilers will ruin a grey hunter squad unless they pop it with melta fire, theres no way I'd rely on 1 pfist attack vs it.

Duh. Isn't that just like EVERY marine army? Yes, the defiler has a scary anti-marine gun and is fairly safe in close combat versus a squad of infantry. Regular CSM have the same problem. Plaguemarines have the same problem, but have the added advantage of more points for no more survivability against it. They'll depend on killing it before it gets into cc, lucky krak grenades, or their Mark of the Wulfen guy getting lucky on rending [which can happen]. Plus I fail to see why a guy with 1 pfist attack [2 on the first round of combat usually] is useless, but a champion with 2 is good insurance that people pay 40 points for "just in case". I'd leave them both at home and depend on shooting it down.

thanatos67 wrote:
I think when wolves fight CSM, optimal on optimal builds, CSM can still crush the puppies. Time will tell but thats my prediction.

Yes. Optimal on Optimal, CSM CAN crush wolves.


You know what? I bet they'll do fine. Wolves require a small amount of metagame changing for tyranids and orks and such, but otherwise are not game-breaking at all. I do not think the codex is BROKEN. I do not think the codex is unbeatable.

I think the codex has basic troops that are a STEAL compared to CSM, and that the book has way way way WAY more fluff, options, and characterful army design opportunities than the CSM codex. It has almost everything the old chaos codex lost in the transition to what we have now. Counter-attacking troops. Special cultists/scouts. Fluffy assault squads. Basic squads that really act like hardcore veterans. Characters with REAL customizability, not just what flavor of daemon weapon do you have. Cool, effective special characters. Independent characters you can really go to town with converting and gearing up with a variety of configs and have fun doing it.

The Wolf codex is just MORE FUN than the CSM codex, and still viable. It's not broken. It's chaos, after being FIXED.

Spellbound wrote:It's chaos, after being FIXED.

......wait, that isn't a pun is it?

On topic though, I agree. The wolves can be beat, the lack of teleports means that they can get outmaneuvered a little bit by more mechanized forces. They rely on crushing you in the assault....something they are VERY GOOD AT, but not AS GOOD as say, 20 storm boyz

Grey Hunters really aren't all that good. I prefer Tactical Marines, and am seriously considering not changing my army for that reason.

Tactical marines are nice. Combat squad option and Combat tactics are great abilities. When 30 shoota boyz kill 3 of my guys, I'd much rather fall back out of assault range and come back at them with a flamer than say "I totally count as charging when you come to bash my face in!"

Fetterkey wrote:Grey Hunters really aren't all that good. I prefer Tactical Marines, and am seriously considering not changing my army for that reason.

You say this as though changing your army is the default option...

My army is an Iron Hands successor that has some serious organizational improvements under Codex: Space Wolves, such as a Dreadnought HQ. However, the Grey Hunters burden may be too much to bear.

Yes, I can see how the burden of one of the most points-efficient troops ever could be too much to bear.

I think that in relation to particular armies. People will always cry and bicker... The book did receive a lot of love from GW... for sure. But as always its the helmsman that leads the army, not the list itself.

I rather like the way things differ between Space Marines, Space Wolves, and Chaos Space Marines.

Tactical Space Marines: Need 10 for special weapon and Heavy Weapon, though they're either inexpensive or free. You automatically pay for a Sergeant with a Veteran profile. You get Rhinos with a capacity of 12 - I guess if you take out the Chainsword racks you can only fit 10 in there! Also the option of Razorbacks and Drop Pods with a capacity of 12. Tactical Marines And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics, and Ld9 from the Sergeant, who also carries the squad's special close combat weapons.

Chaos Space Marines: Only need 5 for a special weapon, but 10 for either an additional special weapon or a Heavy Weapon, and pay retail for all of them. They come with close combat weapons and have the option of upgrading one to an Aspiring Champion for special close combat weapons and Ld10, but Ld9 otherwise. You also have the option of Icons, and 10 capacity Rhino with the option of a Havoc Launcher, Combi-Weapons, and Daemonic Possession.

Grey Hunters: Only need 5 for a discount special weapon, but need 10 for a free special weapon. However, the options for Rhinos and Drop Pods have capacity limits of 10, so you can't add a Wolfguard leader if you want the free special weapon. A Wolfguard is incredibly expensive. Grey Hunters get Acute Senses, Counter-Attack, And They Shall Know No Fear. Grey Hunters all have close combat weapons like Chaos Space Marines. That's not just close combat capacity, but also a limit to Ld8, which makes Counter-Attack less reliable. They have special close combat weapons among their squad, but less efficacy in using them as a result.

It's like they're all significantly different...

I like it: no more Blue Marines and Grey Marines and Spiky Marines but Space Marines and Space Wolves and Chaos Space Marines.

Nurglitch, that's a quite good analysis.
At least, GW made some thoughts about outfitting Grey Hunters.
One of their downsides is surely how expensive Wolfguard Marines are.

Yes, I can clearly see the unique and different advantages of the regular marines, the space wolves......

....did you expect me to say CSM? They need 10 to pay more points for the same combat ability as the others, with less tactical options. Ld 10 is fine and dandy but one failed check [when you're losing combat, this helps very little compared to something like ATSKNF] and you're gone. Chased down, or below half and unable to regroup. We get marks - MORE points for upgrades that make us less points-efficient. It's been discussed at length that cult troops are better than CSM with icons. Army-specific, both marines and wolves have options and chances to make their squads stubborn or fearless. Chaos does not, other than one single special character that, magic word - costs points above and beyond the crappy character in order to pay for these upgrades.

CSM suffer the same problem they do in fantasy - they pay high costs for extra stat boosts, while other armies pay less for lower stats, but get special rules. Being S7 T5 with 5 attacks and I8 with WS8 and a 0+ armor save doesn't help in WHFB when some S3, I3 scrub with re-rolling wounds, killing blow, and Always Strikes First comes along and makes a fool out of you for 1/3 your cost. SW may have lower leadership, and SM may not be able to be T5, but they can give themselves offensive punch in cc [more effective against a squad of charging orks than T5, in the first round of combat], or prevent the assault altogether, while the premium-costed T5 chaos boys take it on the chin.

Chaos Space Marines not only get the opportunity to become Fearless, they get a Strength bonus into the bargain. The extra Leadership, in the meantime, makes them more resistant to pinning. Icons not only give the squad a bonus, they act as teleport homers.

But let's consider a Mob of 30 Orks attacking a squad of 10 Grey Hunter or Tactical Marines or Chaos Space Marines.

In each case, the Marines attack first. Suppose the Grey Hunters get to Counter-Attack. That's 3 attacks each for 30 attacks, 15 hits, 8 wounds, 1 save, 7 dead Orks. If the Grey Hunters don't get the Counter-Attack, despite it being likely, then that's 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1 save, 4 dead Orks.

Orks attacking back in the first case get, if they're Shoota Boyz, 3 attacks each, for 69 attacks, 35 hits, 18 wounds, 12 saves, 6 dead Grey Hunters. In the second case, on the charge the Orks get 78 attacks, 39 hits, 20 wounds, 13 saves, 7 dead Grey Hunters. That's either 7:6 or 4:7. Better hope those Grey Hunters get lucky eh?

Against Tactical Marines it gets worse. 10 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds, 0 saves, 3 dead Orks. 27 Orks attack with 81 attacks, 41 hits, 21 wounds, 14 saves, 7 dead Tactical Marines. 3:7 in favour of the Orks.

Against Chaos Space Marines (maybe with the Icon of Slaanesh or the Icon of Tzeentch) they'd have 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1 save, 4 dead Orks. 26 Orks attack with 78 attacks, 39 hit, 20 wound, 13 saves, 7 dead Chaos Space Marines. 4:7.

Against Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Khorne, where there's no worries about it flaking out on you, you'd see 30 attacks, 15 hits, 8 wounds, 1 save, 7 dead Orks. Just as if the Grey Hunters had passed their Leadership test for Counter-Attack, except there's no Leadership test and the Chaos Space Marines charge like Blood Claws, except they have WS4.

Against Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Nurgle, you'd see 26 Orks attack with 78 attacks, 39 hit, 13 wound, 9 saves, 4 dead Chaos Space Marines. 4:4.

So Chaos Space Marines with the Icon of Khorne pay the premium and run the risk of losing the Icon, but they'll reliably beat the Orks into bean-paste.

If Grey Hunters charge the same unit of Orks, they'll get the same result as if they charge, 7 dead Orks on average, but the Orks will get 46 attacks, 23 hit, 8 wound, 5 save, and 3 dead Grey Hunters. 7:3 improves things in favour of charging, if only to deprive the Orks of their Furious Charge strength bonus and bonus charging attacks.

If the Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Khorne charge the Orks, they'll get 40 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 2 saves, for 8 dead Orks. Orks get 44 attacks, 22 hits, 7 wounds, 5 saves, and two dead Chaos Space Marines. That's 8:2. Again, advantage goes to the guys who paid the premium to the Chaos God of War.

Speaking of paying a premium, what would Berzerkers do?

Getting charged they'd go first, and have 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 2 saves, and 8 dead Orks. The Orks would get 66 attacks, 33 hits, 17 wounds, 11 saves, and 6 dead Berzerkers. 8:6 ain't bad.

In charging they'd have 40 attacks, 27 hits, 18 wounds, 3 saves, 15 dead Orks. The surviving 15 Orks would get 30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds, 3 saves, and 2 dead Berzerkers. That's 13:2

Tactical Marines
4:7, 3:7

Grey Hunters Charging/Counter-Attacking and just Receiving
7:6, 7:6 or 4:7

Chaos Space Marines
7:6, 4:7

Chaos Space Marines w/Icon Of Khorne
8:2, 7:6

Chaos Space Marines w/Icon of Nurgle
7:3, 4:4

Berzerkers
13:2, 8:6

Looking at this, Grey Hunters aren't as good as a unit of Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Khorne, or anywhere near as good as Berzerkers.

Against Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Khorne:

30 attacks, 15 hits, 8 wounds, 5 saves, 3 dead Chaos Space Marines. Or 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 3 saves, 2 dead Chaos Space Marines.

Chaos Space Marines would get 30 attacks, 15 hits, 8 wounds, 5 saves, 3 dead Grey Hunters. So the Grey Hunters will tie if they pass a Ld8 test for Counter-Attack.

Berzerkers will get 40 attacks, 27 hits, 18 wounds, 12 saves, 6 wounds, at I5. So 4 Grey Hunters will attack back, either at 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves, for 1 dead Berzerker, or 8 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save, 1 dead Berzerker. So either was it's 6:1, with the Grey Hunters probably not passing on Ld3 and taking No Retreat! saves losing 3 more on average.

Really, paying the premium so you can wipe out Grey Hunter squads with near-impunity really makes Berzerkers worth it. The best part? They come to you...

While a straight unit-to-unit comparison can be helpful, you also can't discount differences in cost.

For every three Icons of Khorne in the army, you can have another squad of 5 grey hunters.

In a "typical" chaos squad of 10 marines, two melta guns, icon of khorne, and powerfist champion (something I typically run in my Black Legion army), you're looking at 240 points, not counting the cost of the rhino (that they've gotta have).

In my experience, though, running max-size troops units that simply don't do as much damage point-for-point as other FoC slots isn't very efficient, but we'll continue to discuss max-size units (well, for CSM that's 20, but nobody builds bigger than a rhino).

For your 10 grey hunters with two melta guns, and mark of the wulfen, you're looking at 170 points, for roughly the same battlefield effectiveness, only you're never, ever going to lose counter attack through wound allocation.

I'd say a 70 point discount is considerable. It means that you can almost have a 3:2 ratio of grey hunters vs. khorne marked marines. In fact: that's huge.

So yes, while chaos space marines have upgrades available to make their unit better than a grey hunters unit, it does not make the army better because you have to pay a significant cost to do so.

Also, in the way I've currently (successfully, I might add) been running min-size troops for better army efficiency, grey hunters come out on top.

I think that 5 grey hunters w/ 1 special, mark of the wulfen, attached to a wolf guard in a razorback is a more effective troops unit than what I've been doing with my chaos lately: 5 CSM 1 melta gun in a havoc launcher rhino.

@Nurglitch:
Wait what?
Just a small note:
Rhino's don't have a 12 man capacity in any codex so far.

Pods and Land Raiders have that 12 man capacity, or more in the case of the Crusader, but not the Rhino.

Razorbacks can only fit half a dozen.

Or were you just making a joke about it?

My 7 Cents.

willydstyle wrote:I think that 5 grey hunters w/ 1 special, mark of the wulfen, attached to a wolf guard in a razorback is a more effective troops unit than what I've been doing with my chaos lately: 5 CSM 1 melta gun in a havoc launcher rhino.

The issue is that you lose an Elite slot for doing this. Elite slots are very, very precious.

Sanctjud:

I made a mistake: got them mixed up with Drop Pods.

Fetterkey wrote:

willydstyle wrote:I think that 5 grey hunters w/ 1 special, mark of the wulfen, attached to a wolf guard in a razorback is a more effective troops unit than what I've been doing with my chaos lately: 5 CSM 1 melta gun in a havoc launcher rhino.

The issue is that you lose an Elite slot for doing this. Elite slots are very, very precious.

No you don't, you just have to take one model from an elite slot that has up to 10 models. You could easily do 5 wolf guard terminators, with 3 or 4 more to be unit champions, and there would be no kill point penalty, as the wolf guard attached to another unit count as an upgrade character in all respects.

The Wolfguard work like Warlocks, right?

I dont think comparing unit to unit directly can be considered fair. We should look at the armies as a whole and their synergy.

Well, vaguely like Warlocks. Only insofar as they can be a unit on their own, OR sargeants.

You take a unit of Wolfguard. This unit is where you take models from to have sargeants in your squads. This squad takes up an elite slot.

So, for example, you could take a unit of 10 WG. Of these WG, 4 become upgrade characters for other units. The last 6 WG are their own unit and run around wreckin stuff.

So...not like Warlocks? That's interesting. It seems to imply that Assault-Cannon toting Wolfguard can join units...

Something that occurred to me is that the Wolfguard/extra Melta Gun decision is irrelevant if you stick them in a Crusader or Redeemer.

Yeah, you can send out WG with other weapons to join other squads, not just 'vanilla' WG. See Gwar's list in the army forum where his Cyclone termi becomes a Long Fang sarge.

Orkestra:

So how would you characterize Wolfguard with Heavy Weapons? Mint? Chocolate? Perhaps Blue-berry?

Really, I'd say it depends on the weapon options. I don't have enough of an experience with the codex to have memorized all of their options, but I think that I used the wrong metaphor. Instead of flavours of ice cream I'll go with types of food.

Frostblade: Obviously ice cream
Wolf Claw: shish kebabs
Power Fist: Dessert (your choice, as long as it's after the 'main course')
Missile Launcher: Pizza pie (plates. I'm hil-freaking-arious)
Assault Cannon: Double Cheeseburger with ren- I mean bacon.
Power Weapon: White Rice.

I suppose, then, that - to extend the metaphor, that Terminator Armour is equivalent to upsizing your order (hence why the terminator armoured options are more of a 'full meal' thing) and the Pistol you choose (plasma or Bolt) is whether you're drinking wine or beer with your meal. (obviously 'gets hot' would be your wine not matching the meal (like chardonnay with your burger. *shudder*)

And I don't even have anything on topic to say to redeem myself. Oh well, it happens.

Spellbound wrote:Man, when CSM came out I thought I had it all. Not in the codex, mind you - heck no. But the basic CSM. 15 points for Ld 9 [nice, since we can be run down and when reduced below half will keep running], frag and krak [used to have to buy those!], bolter, bp, AND ccw for great versatility! I mean a 10-man squad with 2 meltaguns cost me 170 points, and every model was versatile in weapon options and capabilities. I'd just have to pay 15 points if I wanted 1 more leadership and 1 attack, and if I wanted a power weapon, I'd have to pay 15 more. No problem. I used to be able to get a S5 power weapon for that many points, but hey it's not so bad.

Then I saw this new SW codex, and I looked at the grey hunters. Let's take a look at them.

Looks like they've gone the route of 5th and come with frag and krak. Mmk. Leadership 8, same as SM have always been, but hey they have ATSKNF, so they can never be run down and one last guy can still come take an objective if you leave him be. That's pretty darn good!

But what's this? They've all got acute senses.....seemingly for free, because they've already got everything CSM have but still cost 15 points! And....what the....Counterattack? Everyone has counterattack too? For.....for free? Well at least they still have to pay the same cost for special weapons. A flamer is still 5....no wait it's free. Heck all the weapons seem to be 5 points cheaper than for CSM, that's odd. Ah, but at least they have the same restrictions CSM have, in that you need 10 to get the second special weapon, which you then have to pay for, equal to the cost you paid for the fir.....wait....no, they get it for free? Someone just.... trades a bolter, and gets any assault weapon for free?

So now.... where chaos paid 170 points for 10 guys with 2 meltas, these grey hunters now pay 155, and in addition get ATSKNF, Acute senses, and counterattack. Holy crap. Well, at least if they want someone kitted for close combat, they're going to have to pay 15 points for that extra attack, and then pay more to give them decent weapons. .....Wait what this wulfen thing? 15 points gets.... oh, not 1 more, but at least 1 more, replacing their attacks with d6+1 and giving them rending?


Let's check out the breakdown.

15 points gets either marine w/ Ld 9 and bp/ccw/bolter, or the same points gets the same guy, Ld 8 but ATSKNF, acute senses AND counterattack.

10 points gets a meltagun, 10 more gets a second - compared to 5, then 0?

And 30 points buys an extra attack and ld [can still get run down though] with a power weapon - or 15 for LOTS of extra attacks and rending, so now you can take down anything but a landraider without reducing your initiative, if lucky.


WOW. What a unit. I'd spam the HELL out of grey hunters for that kind of cheap, incredible versatility and reliability. Rapid-fire some orks, then count as charging when they come at me, striking first? Heck yeah!

Yeah, maybe I will start doing counts-as SW with my chaos from now on. At least now I can build a customized character with a backstory and character behind his equipment loadout.

Whats this another CSM player complaining surely not......

Get over it please for one thing BE HAPPY

It will mean when Chaos and all the other marines get done weapons will be cheaper and GW are obviously thinking about a lot more specials rules that affect armies ie counter attack space wolves ALWAYS charge in combat even if they are outnumbered or about to be overwhelmed. It's the armies fluff.

When chaos comes out again you may find that your weapons are cheaper and you have some new special rules

and yet i bet half of you will complain as usual....

Sorry if i offend you Chaos players out there but God all i ever see you do is rant which makes me want to rant speaking of this RANT OFF you may now flame my post

Fetterkey wrote:Grey Hunters really aren't all that good. I prefer Tactical Marines, and am seriously considering not changing my army for that reason.

^ This is epic fail.

I think Stelek from YTTH sums Grey Hunters up better than I can.

"Grey Hunters: The internet is all a gaga over these guys. What the %*$& for? So you pay 15 points for a Marine, and get the following:

Chaos Magic Sack (Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW).
Two specials when upgraded to 10 guys (which means nobody else can ride in your drop pod, dumb$*#).

You also get LD8. Hey, that means people can shoot you and you run like wimps. I sure hope you have your YTTH certified mech’d up card.

You also get no heavy weapon.

No combat tactics.

Wait, so I can spend 155 points + 35 points for a 10 man squad with LD8, that can drop in front of a enemy mech vehicle and probably kill it—then die horribly, or get shot away, or get assaulted by real assault troops (which you %*$&ing aren’t).

Tactical use: How about I pay 105 points for a meltagun guy in a 5 man squad mounted in a Rhino, and call it good? Or hell, a flamer and stop pretending like I’m stupid and going to throw my precious troops away killing your tanks. I’m not Chaos, why should I play like Chaos? Oh right, because I’m stupid.

"
And lets see if Luna can sum it all up....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:I dont think comparing unit to unit directly can be considered fair. We should look at the armies as a whole and their synergy.

AND THERE IT IS!

EzeKK:

Are you disagreeing with Fetterkey or agreeing with him? Because the analysis you present seems to agree with his assessment.

Ripister wrote:
Whats this another CSM player complaining surely not......

Get over it please for one thing BE HAPPY

It will mean when Chaos and all the other marines get done weapons will be cheaper and GW are obviously thinking about a lot more specials rules that affect armies ie counter attack space wolves ALWAYS charge in combat even if they are outnumbered or about to be overwhelmed. It's the armies fluff.

When chaos comes out again you may find that your weapons are cheaper and you have some new special rules

and yet i bet half of you will complain as usual....

Sorry if i offend you Chaos players out there but God all i ever see you do is rant which makes me want to rant speaking of this RANT OFF you may now flame my post

You know what, I'm starting to get a little bit vexed by you and your friends and all their Chaos hate. If you weren't so wrapped up in your own updated codex and MC spamming Tyranid lists you might take the time to start using your brain and look at our codex. Chaos has been the poor cousin to marines for a helluva long time now and some of us are more than a little annoyed at the fact that not only are we the weakest MEQ codex out, but all of the idiots like you take special time out of your day to deliberately attack us and our codex. We are totally justified in our anger and perhaps if you were in our position of having the best damned codex out ripped off you like us you would understand. We are now at the back of the list and will spend the next 5 years waithing for a new codex that will hopefully clear up all the glaring inconsistencies and lack of any fluff in our armies. I started playing Chaos for the fluff, as did many other people and we've even had any sense of coherency with that taken off us. So next time you come onto dakka for no reason other than to flame every Chaos player out, do the world a favour and hold your tongue.
I can't wait to here all you Nid players complain when your new codex comes out.....Wait that's right you won't 'cos GW is into breaking codexes now not nerfing them like they were with us.

The Chaos Codex is not the "weakest MEQ codex out." That (dis)honor belongs to the Dark Angels.

I dunno.....they do get Ravenwing, Deathwing and some awesome stuff (AV 14 Speeders) and Chaos get none of that "character" stuff really bar some SCs.

This debate is getting pretty interesting, but its turning into a chaos vs puppy comparison. I think you guys are looking at this all wrong. If we are really going to determine which troop (and which army) is better we should see how they stack up vs other armies. (this is a quick analysis off the top of my head feel free to debate or improve this)

Vs marines: well tac squads blow so both puppys and chaos shouldn't have a problem with most marines builds (maybe the vulkin builds) but grey hunters are so many and so cheap they can swarm and overwhelm marines. Chaos can pop the transports with oblits and lash the crap out of the rest of the army and use the csms to press in the same way as the puppys. However I have to give the advantage of puppies cause they can play a rock paper scissors game with marines and trade unit for unit and still have 2-3 squads left.

Vs dark angles im not going to bother just a worse version of mairnes.

Vs blood angels If the Ba player is taking dante+ corb+ terms and death co then im going to have to give the advantage to chaos, they have more long range firepower and can get 2 good combat hqs for the price of 1 puppy special character so im going to have to give the advantage to chaos.

Vs Eldar The only big worry is the seer biker squad and eldraid, and when it comes to Psi defense chaos have none, so im going to have to give the advantage to puppies. Chaos might have the advantage of range but when you can take 6 rhino squads and have room for rune priests you have a list that can really hurt eldar if you get a few lucky rolls. Power weapons dont matter vs seer bikers so gery hunters lack of them is not going to be a problem here. Advantage to Pupppies

Vs dark eldar If you still know people who play them then you know they own any army that is lacking long range fire power. Advantage chaos

Daemonhunters/ necrons/ tau no offensive to you guys but necrons really really need a new book, and any chance of making a solid competitive daemonhunter list died with the new guard faq. I just feel bad for tau anymore, they can do some cute tricks with a positional relay and kroot but thats about all they have going for them. So advantage here: none, both will crush these armies.

Sisters of battle Puppies have the numbers to compete with these guys, but chaos has (IMO and only time will tell) better cc units that can hose sisters in 1-2 rounds of combat. The lack of power weapon/ fists atks hunters have could hurt them here. Both armies http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jspwill struggle poping the exorcists but this is the one case where long fangs might be better then oblits assuming the exorcists roll poorly for their missile shots. Advantage here: none both should be able to beat this army a majority of the time.

Vs nids Puppies have the fex killer and the ability to take a crap ton of special weps is a big deal. However chaos can still handle nids, oblits are great fex poppers, and can get their own mcs and lash is nice. However both sets of super powers can still be stoped by mr tyrant...but the fex killer is going to hurt a whole lot more then lash if it goes off. Also don't underestimate a zerker champ with a p fist..they hurt ALOT. Im going to have to call it a draw here. I think most people will disagree with me on this one but I really feel both armies are great vs nids. Advantage: draw

Orks Well counter atk is nice, but as everyone has pointed out, ld 8 is not and vs orks id rather have 2 flamers over a p fist/ wep. Long fangs will not be enough to stop a mech ork list. 6 man squads mean you could actually fire some lootas at them and have an average chance at taking out some long range guns. Better then that a few outflanking komandows will ruin their day. Also lets not forget chaos has zerkers which rape orks like no other. As an ork player I am really not concerned about the new puppy dex. Sure ragner could give a squad up too 70 atks but thats only 1 unit and it can be delt with. But what do you do vs 4 zerker units 2 lash sorcs and some oblits, its not easy ill tell you that much. Advantage chaos

Vs guard Well vs guard im going to say it as simply as I can.... mech marine players (no matter what chapter or legion) are Franked, vets pop transports, chem cannons finish off the guys inside. Your outnumbered in transports 2-1..... Guardsmen marbo will ruin a long fang squad, and could even kill an oblit squad if hes lucky tho thats much harder. Hydras will harry long range units enough that you might fail some saves. -1 to reserves means its harder to ds oblits, while the puppys can still get 1-2 pods down 1st turn with their special rules, abit they are alone and will get burned the next turn. Guard kill mech armies, its really that simple. If your playing a mech guard army in a torny vs someone who is skilled in their use, you are almost 100% franked..... Advantage here, none but I would rather have chaos because I can spam cheap daemon units that can charge vets, which will keep my csms in their transports.

So overall if I was going to a torny, I think I would rather be weak to eldar, then to orks...and I have a slightly better chance vs guard. Now these are only assuming I play the odds. Im sure there are plenty of people who are going to disagree with me or have a completely different meta game then we have in pa. But from what I have seen in the tornys i have been to in the northeast and from talking to various people I would much rather have a csm army then a puppy army.

Krootman wrote:
Vs dark eldar[/b] If you still know people who play them then you know they own any army that is lacking long range fire power. Advantage chaos

Chaos definitely does not have more long-range firepower than Space Wolves. Wolves have cheaper dakka preds and Long Fangs with missile launchers are dirt cheap compared to Havoks with similar loadouts. Wolves can also take the Rifleman dread which is a far greater threat to DE than Oblits due to both number of shots and target saturation. Not to mention cost. Then you run into the whole issue of Chaos only has 3 force org slots to really fit in all of its more-than-24" guns because Troops, Elites, and Fast Attack don't offer very much for long range firepower unless you compromise a lot of versatility needed in a truly competitive list.

I mean, look at these price tags:

9x Oblits - 675

vs

3x Rifleman Dreads - 375
3x 5x Long Fangs with 4x Missile Launchers - 345

Chaos can kill 3 Raiders 36" away. Space Wolves can knock down NINE by dint of splitting fire and having more units. That's three times as much potential return with almost equivalent point costs. Conversely DE lance fire is going to kill 1 Oblit per wound due to ID. That means that the Long Fangs alone have 50% more wounds, and the Dreads are the most durable AV value versus lance fire.

Orks Well counter atk is nice, but as everyone has pointed out, ld 8 is not and vs orks id rather have 2 flamers over a p fist/ wep. Long fangs will not be enough to stop a mech ork list. 6 man squads mean you could actually fire some lootas at them and have an average chance at taking out some long range guns. Better then that a few outflanking komandows will ruin their day. Also lets not forget chaos has zerkers which rape orks like no other. As an ork player I am really not concerned about the new puppy dex. Sure ragner could give a squad up too 70 atks but thats only 1 unit and it can be delt with. But what do you do vs 4 zerker units 2 lash sorcs and some oblits, its not easy ill tell you that much. Advantage chaos

Space Wolves can take Land Raiders that actually do something. Orks have answers to everything in a competitive chaos list (I play both, it's true) but don't have much answer for AV14. Advantage goes to the guy with better Land Raiders, and that's quite obviously SW.

Vs guard Well vs guard im going to say it as simply as I can.... mech marine players (no matter what chapter or legion) are Franked, vets pop transports, chem cannons finish off the guys inside. Your outnumbered in transports 2-1..... Guardsmen marbo will ruin a long fang squad, and could even kill an oblit squad if hes lucky tho thats much harder. Hydras will harry long range units enough that you might fail some saves. -1 to reserves means its harder to ds oblits, while the puppys can still get 1-2 pods down 1st turn with their special rules, abit they are alone and will get burned the next turn. Guard kill mech armies, its really that simple. If your playing a mech guard army in a torny vs someone who is skilled in their use, you are almost 100% franked..... Advantage here, none but I would rather have chaos because I can spam cheap daemon units that can charge vets, which will keep my csms in their transports.

Chaos does have answers to mech guard but this definitely isn't it. Lesser Daemons don't do gak to Vets snugged in their Chimeras. If you're wasting points on Lesser Daemons versus IG then you have fewer points to spend on the tools you need, like more Rhino CSM with meltas, Termicides with combi meltas, and more oblits.

Likewise Long Fang squads are capable of doing horrible things to AV12 for roughly equivalent points. Okay, Marbo can show up and kill 2-3 with one solid demo throw. That's only breaking even, and it's likely that the remaining Fangs will beat him to death if he charges. Versus Mech Guard the advantage goes to whoever can put out more cheap AT capable of hurting AV12 and the answer to that one is probably a wash; both lists have the tools necessary to down IG. The problem for Chaos, though, is they only get those tools at about 2k points; Wolves can do it at 1500.

Spellbound wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:A Chaos unit has several benefits over a Grey Hunter one. For example, it can take a Sergeant without using an Elites slot. It can also take a Mark, and can have both a Sergeant and two special weapons. That's without even getting into Plague Marines and the other "special troops" that Chaos can field.

Hey, so can Space Wolves!

Logan Grimnar = an extra troops slot provides sergeants to all your squads.

Sergeant and 2 special weapons.... so can grey hunters, you realize. You can have 2 special weapons, 1 guy with d6+1 rending attacks, and another guy with 2(3, counterattack) power weapon attacks.

Marks = IOCG, or just choose the appropriate cult squad instead.

Cult squad = I'm going to have so many more grey hunters than you, armed with FNP-ignoring weapons, that you'll just be bogged down by bodies if nothing else. Or heck, I'll just add a Lone wolf here or there, who rerolls his misses against your T5 guys and has wound-rerolling wolf claws!

I love lone wolves Not overpowered, just.... design-a-character, and loses you no kill points.

I thought the codex says 'Count as Troops' not can be Taken as troops

Fetterkey wrote:The Chaos Codex is not the "weakest MEQ codex out." That (dis)honor belongs to the Dark Angels.

What about Necrons?

At least necrons have mini-gods and a godly-tank.

DA only have doublewing, and even that has been whored off to other armies.

Dark Angels can have Fearless throughout the army, Command squads for all characters, all scoring units in the army, and their Librarians and Chaplains haven't had their combat capability neutered as much as Space Marines and Space Wolves have. Plus the whole infinite range Psychic Hood...

Fearless is a double edged sword.
Command squads are highly meh.
Scoring units are nice, but if you plan for it, you could have 10 or 2, it wouldn't matter too much.

Libby's exchange combat prowess with a much better array of powers.
Chaplains: meh.

Infinite range hood is nice......... 4 pychic rods that screw powers on a determined roll.....all available to be used....better?

/shrug, I was more focused on the whoring of Bikers troops and Terminator troops to other armies: Orks, Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines.

Aduro wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:The Chaos Codex is not the "weakest MEQ codex out." That (dis)honor belongs to the Dark Angels.

What about Necrons?

I don't consider Necrons true MEQs. Their organization is so different that the comparison doesn't really work.