Well I asked and it never appeared, so I took it on myself to do it...

Here's what I found out from looking at the SW codex for nearly 2 hours today and recording the info into my Iphones Voice Memo program. I've not included the points values, but most of everything is here.

Army-wide Special Rules and Wargear

All Space Wolves are rumoured to have ATSKNF, Acute Senses, and Counter attack.

Sagas – Characters can take special skills called Sagas. You may not double up on Sagas, although Special Characters do not count towards this.

Saga of Majesty - All friendly units within 6" get to re-roll failed morale checks

Saga of the Beastslayer - Re-roll to hit and wound against Walkers, MC and models of T5 or higher

Saga of the Iron Wolf (Iron Priest only) - Adds D3" to the vehicle they are in and +1 to repair rolls

Saga of the Wolfkin - Fenrisian Wolves get Ld7 and I5

Saga of the bear - Eternal Warrior

Saga of the Warrior Born - +1 attack for each kill in previous Assault Phase

Saga of the Hunter - Outflank and Stealth

Wolf Claws – The Space Wolf version of Lightning Claws, allow you to choose to either re-roll “to hit” or “to wound”.

Frostblade - +1 Strength Power Weapon

Belt of Russ - As before. can only be taken by Wolf Lords and Wold Guard Battle Leaders.

Drop Pod Assault - Same as C:SM

Mark of the Wulfen Model replaces their Attack Characteristic with D6+1 Attacks and also gets Rending, but you cannot use special ccw. You can still have shooty weapons though.

Runic Weapons Force weapons, negate any psychic powers cast within 24" on a 4+, and wound daemons on a 2+.

Runic Armour 2+ save and 5+ inv save against psychic shooting attacks.

Thunderwolf Mount - Rider gains +1 Str, Toughness and attack, Rending and becomes Cavalry.

Chooser of the Slain - Allows a marker to be placed before enemy deployment. Enemy cannot infiltrate within 18 inches and the marker cannot be destroyed.

Fang of Morkai - The Wolf Priest and any unit he joins become Fearless.

Wolf Tail Talisman - 5++ save vs Psychic Powers.

Wolf Tooth Necklace - hits on 3+ in CC.

HQ

HQs are 2 per slot (this does include Special Characters), however no 2 characters can have the same Wargear or Psychic Power combinations.

Logan Grimnar, the Great Wolf – WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A5 Ld10 Sv2+
Eternal Warrior, Stubborn. Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Storm Bolter, Belt of Russ, Saga of Majesty.
The Great Wolf - Wolf Guard units count as Troops
The High King - Logan and the squad he joins may choose one of the following special rules each turn: Fearless, Tank Hunters, Relentless or Preferred enemy.
The Axe Morkai - allows him to attack as either a Frostblade, or a Power Fist, and can split his attacks between these two attack types.
Living Legend - Once per game ALL FRIENDLY units within 18" gain +1 Attack.

Njal Stormcaller, Lord of Tempests – WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A3 Ld10 Sv2+
Runic Armour (2+ save, 5+ inv against psychic attacks that deal damage) Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak grenades saga of Majesty. Has all six Space Wolf Psychic powers.
Can replace Runic Armour and grenades with Runic Terminator Armour (2+ save, 4+ inv against everything).
Nightwing the Cyber Raven – Rumoured to allow you to place a marker anywhere on the table. Infiltrators may not set up within 18" of it. Additionally, if Nightwing has LOS to Njal’s shooting (or casting) target, the he gets +1 BS. Also rumoured to cause D3 I5 S3 hits on one model in contact with Njal.
Staff of the Stormcaller – Runic Weapon that negate any psychic powers on a 3+.
Master Psyker – Can cast 3 Powers per turn. ( That is nutz).
Lord of Tempests – Njal is shrouded by a storm that gets worse as the game progresses. Roll a D3 and add the turn number:
2) Nothing
3) All enemy units within 24" get -1BS
4) All enemy units count open ground within 24" of Njal as Difficult terrain
5) All unengaged enemy units within 18" take a Break Test
6) One unit within 18" takes D6 S9 hits, vehicles get hit on side armour
7+) All unengaged enemy units within 12" take D6 S8 AP5 hits.

Wolf Lord Ragnar Blackmane – WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv3+
Bolt Pistol, Frost Blade, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Melta Bombs, Frag and Krak grenades, Saga of the Warrior Born.
May take up to 2 Fenrisian Wolves, Svangir and Ulfgir – WS4 BS0 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld6 Sv5+
Insane Bravado - Grants himself and the unit he joins d3 extra attacks on the charge instead of +1.
War Howl - Once per game grants Furious Charge to all units within 12".
Incredible Reflexes - 4+ inv Dodge Save.

Ulrik the Slayer – WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv2+
Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Amulet (4+ inv) Fang of Morkai, Frag and Krak grenades. Fearless.
Wolf Helm of Russ - Whenever an enemy IC chooses to allocate attacks to Ulrik they first must pass a Ld test, if the test is failed the IC attacking Ulrik will loose all it's attacks.
Slayer’s Oath - Allows Preferred Enemy against one unit type (infantry, tanks etc) chosen at the start of the game.
Mentor - At the start of the game, nominate one model (not a unique unit) to have been mentored by Ulrik, this model gets +1 WS to a maximum of 6.

Canis Wolfborn – WS5 BS2 S5 T5 W3 I5 A5 Ld8 Sv3+
2 Wolf Claws, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Frag and Krak grenades, Saga of the Wolfkin.
Mounted on a Thunder Wolf (Fangir). Rending.
Wrath of the Savage - Can substitute his base number of attacks for attacks equal to the number of enemies in base to base contact with him (only useful if more than 5 models in B2B).
Lord of the Wolf Kin - F.Wolves may re-roll failed Ld tests.
The Wolf King - Fenrisian Wolves count as Troops.

Björn the Fellhanded – WS6 BS6 S7 13/12/10 I3 A4
Venerable Dreadnought. Assault Cannon, Dreadnaught CCW (with Built in Heavy Flamer), Wolf Tail Talisman, Smoke Launchers, Saga of Majesty.
May replace Assault Cannon with a Plasma Cannon for Free or Twin Linked Lascannon.
Living relic - If killed he counts as an objective and makes all Space Wolves Fearless.
Ward of the Primarch - 5+ inv save
Space Wolf player may re-roll the dice to see who gets turn 1.

Wolf Lords – WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv3+
Bolt Pistol, CCW. Frag and Krak grenades.
May replace BP and/or CCW with: Bolter, Storm Bolter, Combi-weapon, Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Frost Blade, Frost Axe, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield.
May replace Power Armour with Runic Armour
May replace all wargear with Terminator Armour, Storm Bolter & Power Weapon. May replace Terminator Armour Storm Bolter with Combi Weapon, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Chainfist. May replace Terminator Armour Power Weapon with Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Chainfist.
If not Terminator Armour, may take Bike, Jump Pack or Thunder Wolf.
May take any of the following: Melta Bombs, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Mark of the Wulfen, Belt of Russ, up to 2 Fenrisian Wolves.
May take Saga of the Beastslayer, Saga of Majesty, Saga of the Wolfkin, Saga of the Warrior Born, Saga of the Bear.

Rune Priests – WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv3+
Runic Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak grenades.
May upgrade to Master of Runes - May use 2 powers per turn.
May replace Bolt Pistol with Bolter, Plasma Pistol or Storm Bolter.
May replace Power Armour with Runic Armour.
May replace all wargear except Runic Weapon with Terminator Armour & Storm Bolter. May replace Terminator Armour Storm Bolter with Combi Weapon.
If not Terminator Armour, may take Bike or Jump Pack
May take any of the following: Melta Bombs, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Chooser of the Slain (?)
May take Saga of the Beastslayer or Saga of the Warrior Born.
May take any 2 of the following Psychic Powers:
Thunderclap - Psychic shooting attack. Large Blast template has to touch the Rune Priest. Anything touched takes a S3 AP5 hit.
Living Lightning - D6 S7 AP5 shots with infinite range.
Storm Caller - Cast at start of turn, lasts until the beginning of the next SW Turn. ALL friendly units within 6" get a 5+ cover save.
Tempest’s Wrath - Cast at start of turn, lasts until the beginning of the next SW Turn. All Skimmers, Jetbikes, Jump Infantry, and units arriving from Deep Strike that end their turn within 24” of the Rune Priest treat all terrain as both Difficult and Dangerous
Fury of the Wold Spirits Psychic shooting attack that can be shot in Freki mode or Greki mode. Both are 12". Freki is S5 AP- Assault 3 and Greki is S4 AP2 Assault 2. Any units taking casualties from it must take a Morale check.
Murderous Hurricane Psychic shooting attack. 1 enemy unit within 18” takes 3d6 S3 AP- hits. Next Turn that unit treats all terrain as both Difficult and Dangerous.
Jaws of the World Wolf - Psychic shooting attack. Measure out 24" and any MCs, Beasts, Cavalry, Bikes, or Infantry touched by the line must pass an Initiative test or be removed from play. Monstrous creatures may subtract 1 from their dice roll.

Wolf Priests – WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv3+
Crozius Arcanum (Power weapon), Bolt Pistol, Wolf Amulet (4+ Inv), Fang of Morkai (?), Frag and Krak grenades. Fearless.
May replace Bolt Pistol with Bolter, Plasma Pistol, Storm Bolter, Combi-weapon.
May replace Power Armour with Runic Armour.
May replace all wargear except Crozius Arcanum with Terminator Armour & Storm Bolter. May replace Terminator Armour Storm Bolter with Combi Weapon.
If not Terminator Armour, may take Bike or Jump Pack
May take any of the following: Melta Bombs, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman,
May take Saga of the Beastslayer, Saga of the Wolfkin, Saga of the Warrior Born. May take Saga of the Hunter if they don’t have a Jump Pack or Bike.
Oath of War - Allows Preferred Enemy against one unit type (infantry, tanks etc) chosen at the start of the game.

Battle Leader – WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld9 Sv3+
Bolt Pistol, CCW. Frag and Krak grenades.
May replace BP and/or CCW with: Bolter, Storm Bolter, Combi-weapon, Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Frost Blade, Frost Axe, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield.
May replace Power Armour with Runic Armour
May replace all wargear with Terminator Armour, Storm Bolter & Power Weapon. May replace Terminator Armour Storm Bolter with Combi Weapon, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Chainfist. May replace Terminator Armour Power Weapon with Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Chainfist.
If not Terminator Armour, may take Bike, Jump Pack or Thunder Wolf.
May take any of the following: Melta Bombs, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Mark of the Wulfen, up to 2 Fenrisian Wolves.
May take Saga of the Beastslayer, Saga of the Wolfkin, Saga of the Warrior Born. May take Saga of the Hunter if they don’t have a Jump Pack or Bike.

Elites

Wolf Guard – WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+
3-10 Wolf Guard. Bolt Pistol & CCW Frag and Krak grenades.
Can be assigned to Blood Claw, Swift Claw, Grey Hunter, and Long Fang squads before the game (1 per squad). If they don’t have Terminator Armour, Jump Packs, or Bikes, they can go with Wolf Scouts.
May replace BP and/or CCW with: Bolter, Storm Bolter, Combi-weapon, Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Frost Blade, Frost Axe, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield.
May replace all wargear with Terminator Armour, Storm Bolter & Power Weapon. May replace Terminator Armour Storm Bolter with Combi Weapon, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Chainfist. May replace Terminator Armour Power Weapon with Wolf Claw, Frost Blade, Frost Axe, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Chainfist.
For every 5 models in the squad, 1 Terminator may replace Storm Bolter with Heavy Flamer, Assault Cannon, or take a Cyclone.
If not Terminator Armour, may take Bike or Jump Pack.
Any WG may take Melta Bombs.
One WG may take the Mark of the Wulfen.
One WG may be upgraded to Arjak Rockfist, the Anvil of Fenris.
Terminators cannot Teleport. May take a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback. One unit may take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport

Arjak Rockfist, the Anvil of Fenris - WS5 BS5 S5 T4 W2 I4 A3 Ld9 Sv2+
TERMINATOR ARMOUR!!!
Wolf Guard Upgrade. Stubborn, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Saga of the bear, Must fight independent characters when possible.
Foehammer - Thunder Hammer that can be thrown as a 6" S10 AP1 assault 1 shooting attack before returning to his hands.
Anvil Shield - Storm Shield that grants a bonus attack on the charge (so +2 total)

Dreadnought – WS4 BS4 S6 12/12/10 I4 A2
Assault Cannon, Dreadnought CCW (built in Storm Bolter) Smoke Launchers, Searchlight.
Replace Storm Bolter with Heavy Flamer
Replace Assault Cannon with Multi Melta, TL Heavy Flamer, TL Heavy Bolter, TL Autocannon, Plasma Cannon, TL Lascannon.
Dreadnought CCW with TL Autocannon, Missile Launcher
May take Extra Armour, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman
May take Drop Pod

Venerable Dreadnought - WS5 BS5 S6 12/12/10 I4 A2
Assault Cannon, Dreadnought CCW (built in Storm Bolter) Smoke Launchers, Searchlight.
Replace Storm Bolter with Heavy Flamer
Replace Assault Cannon with Multi Melta, TL Heavy Flamer, TL Heavy Bolter, TL Autocannon, Plasma Cannon, TL Lascannon.
Dreadnought CCW with TL Autocannon, Missile Launcher
May take Extra Armour, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Saga of Majesty
May take Drop Pod

Iron Priests – WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld8 Sv2+
Thrall Servitors – WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
Cyber Wolves – WS4 BS0 S4 T5 W1 I4 A1 Ld6 Sv4+
Runic Armour, Servo Arm, Bolt Pistol or Bolter, Thunder Hammer, Frag and Krak grenades.
May take up to 3 Thrall Servitors (+1 to repair roll for each one with a Servo Arm, 2 may replace Arm with Heavy Bolter, Multi Melta, Plasma Cannon) and 4 Cyber Wolves.
May be mounted on a Bike or Thunder Wolf
May take Extra Armour, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Saga of the Iron Wolf.
Battlesmith - 5+ repairs weapon or restores mobility.

Wolf Scouts – WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
5-10 Wolf Scouts. Bolt Pistol, CCW. Frag and Krak grenades. Infiltrate, Scout, Move Through Cover.
May replace BP or CCW with Bolter or Sniper Rifle.
Squad may take Melta Bombs.
One Scout may replace Bolt Pistol with Flamer, Meltagun, Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher.
Two Scouts may replace Bolt Pistol with Power Weapon or Plasma Pistol.
One Wolf Scout may take The Mark of the Wulfen.
Behind Enemy Lines - If held in reserve, may deploy from any board edge on a 3+.

Lone Wolf– WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld8 Sv3+
1 Lone Wolf. Bolt Pistol, CCW. Frag and Krak grenades. Fearless.
May replace BP and/or CCW with: Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Frost Blade, Frost Axe, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield.
May replace all wargear with Terminator Armour, Storm Bolter & Power Weapon. May replace Terminator Armour Storm Bolter with Combi Weapon, Wolf Claw, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Chainfist. May replace Terminator Armour Power Weapon with Wolf Claw, Frost Blade, Frost Axe, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Chainfist.
May take Melta Bombs Mark of the Wulfen, up to 2 Fenrisian Wolves
A Glorious Death - Concede a Kill Point if they aren’t killed.
Beastslayer – May re-roll To-Hit against Walkers, Monstrous Creatures and things above T5.
Pack of One – Feel No Pain and Eternal Warrior
Fenrisian Wolves – WS4 BS0 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld5 Sv6+

Troops

Grey Hunters– WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+
5-10 Grey Hunters. Bolter, Bolt Pistol & CCW Frag and Krak grenades.
One Grey Hunter may replace their Bolter with a Flamer, Meltagun, Plasmagun.
If the squad numbers 10 models an additional model may replace their Bolter with one of the above weapons at no additional cost.
One Grey Hunter may replace their Bolt Pistol with Plasma Pistol.
One Grey Hunter may replace their CCW with Power Weapon, Power Fist.
One Grey Hunter may take The Mark of the Wulfen.
One Grey Hunter may take a Wolf Standard - One use only. Grants a re-roll to any rolls of 1, to hit, to wound.
May take a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback.

Blood Claws – WS3 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+
5 -15 Blood Claws. Bolt Pistol & CCW Frag and Krak grenades.
One Blood Claw may replace their Bolt Pistol with a Flamer, Meltagun, Plasmagun.
If the squad numbers 15 models an additional model may replace their Bolt Pistol with one of the above weapons at no additional cost.
One Blood Claw may replace their Bolt Pistol with Plasma Pistol.
One Blood Claw may replace their CCW with Power Weapon, Power Fist.
One Blood Claw may be upgraded to Lukas the Trickster.
Berserk Charge - supposedly grants +2 attacks on the charge (but not for Counter Attack). Headstrong - if the Blood Claw unit is within 6" of an enemy unit and doesn’t have a wolf guard leading them they can't shoot.
May take a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback

Lukas the Trickster - WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld8 Sv3+
Blood Claw upgrade. Plasma Pistol, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Wolf Claw.
Pelt of the Doppegangrel - Forces the enemy to re-roll successful to-hit rolls.
Rebellious - Causes his Squad to be capped at his Ld8 regardless of other upgrades.
The Last Laugh - On his death Lukas and the model that killed him are removed then both players roll a D6. If the SW player rolls equal to or higher than their opponent, all models within Base to Base contact with Lukas (friend or foe) are removed.

Transports

Rhino – Same as SM, 10 Passenger Cap.
Razorback – Same as SM, 6 Passenger Cap.
Drop Pod – Same as SM but only carries 10 bods or 1 Dread.

Fast Attack

Thunderwolf Cavalry – WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A4 Ld8 Sv3+
1-5 Thunderwolf Cavalry. Bolt Pistol, CCW, Frag and Krak grenades. Rending, Cavalry.
May replace Bolt Pistol with Bolter, Plasma Pistol, Storm Shield.
May take Melta Bombs
One May replace CCW with Power Weapon, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Frost Blade, Frost Axe, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield.
One may take The Mark of the Wulfen.
F. Wolves within 12" may Re-roll Ld.

Swiftclaws – WS3 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+
Swiftclaws Attack Bike – WS3 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+
3-10 Blood Claws with Bikes, Bolt Pistol, CCW, Frag and Krak grenades. Berserk Charge, Headstrong
One may replace their Bolt Pistol with a Flamer, Meltagun, Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol.
One may replace their CCW with Power Weapon, Power Fist.
May add one Attack Bike with Heavy Bolter. May replace Heavy Bolter with Multi Melta.
May all take Melta Bombs.

Skyclaws – WS3 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+
5-10 Blood Claws with Jump Packs, Bolt Pistol, CCW, Frag and Krak grenades. Berserk Charge, Headstrong.
One may replace their Bolt Pistol with a Flamer, Meltagun, Plasmagun, Plasma Pistol.
One may replace their CCW with Power Weapon, Power Fist.
One Skyclaw may take The Mark of the Wulfen.

Land Speeder – Same as SM.

Fenrisian Wolves – WS4 BS0 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld5 Sv6+
Cyber Wolves – WS4 BS0 S4 T5 W1 I4 A3 Ld6 Sv4+
5-15 Fenrisian Wolves. Cavalry. ONE WOLF can be upgraded to Cyber Wolves
Fenrisin Wolves may never claim objectives under any circumstances.

Heavy Support

Long Fangs – WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv3+
Pack Leader - WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+
1 Pack Leader and 1-5 Long Fangs. Bolt Pistol, CCW, Frag and Krak grenades.
Fire Control - As long as the Pack Leader does not shoot, the Long Fangs may fire at 2 different targets.
Pack Leader may replace CCW and/or Bolt Pistol with Flamer, Plasma pistol, Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, Power Fist, and may take Melta Bombs.
Each Long Fang apart form the Pack Leader MUST replace Bolt Pistol with Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, Multi Melta, Plasma Cannon, Lascannon.
May take a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback.

Predator – Same as SM.
Whirlwind – Same as SM.
Vindicator – Same as SM.
Land Raider – Same as SM, 10 Passenger Cap.
Land Raider Crusader – Same as SM, 16 Passenger Cap.
Land Raider Redeemer – Same as SM, 12 Passenger Cap.

Enjoy.

Edit - As asked for by other posters:

The bones of this was taken from Warseer and I added stuff that was missing.

Some interesting improvements on the Space Marine Codex, like allowing two Independent Characters per HQ slot (though that's moreso a Chaos Daemons innovation).

I like the Wolf Guard Battle Leader: I'd love to have a similar kind of 'Lieutenant' in other Space Marine lists.

Ditto for the Living Relic rule. Very cool idea.

I suppose Counter Attack is what they get instead of Chapter Tactics.

Interesting to see how they separated out the concepts of Wolf Scouts from the Lone Wolf. Likewise how they have upgrades of Power Armour, Power Armour + Invulnerable Save, and Terminator Armour.

I noticed that Long Fangs don't have a Signum, or any bullet-catchers.

The Fenrisian Wolves and the Thunderwolf Cavalry don't really make any sense, but at least they aren't firing them out of cannons! Wolf cannon, as it were.

Still, thank God we now have a codex that can represent all the diverse Space Wolf armies except the 13th Company!

Should be interesting to see how they play.

Borken.

Nice cut'n'paste of the Dude's Summary from Warseer.

At least you tweaked it a little.

The army isn't Broken.

Just very powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ubermosher wrote:Nice cut'n'paste of the Dude's Summary from Warseer.

At least you tweaked it a little.

There were bits taken from Warseer and bits added from me that they didn't have in there.

I do have the points values - but I'm not going against forum rules to add them.

4 HQ choices is strong but if they are expensive then not Broken.

Njal's Tempest is crazy stupid strong.

The Runes Priests Tempest and Jaws are overpowered

The Tricksters Last Laugh is definately borken.

Personal Gripe for me (As I 1ksons player):
Ld 10 chance of Psychic Success = 91.6%
Ld 10 chance of Psychic Success (Vs RoW)= ~80%
Ld 10 chance of Psychic Success (Vs Psychic Hood)= ~56%
Ld 10 chance of Psychic Success (Vs Runic Force Weapon)= 45.8%

Please let the first Legion Codex be for Thousand Sons. Its embarrassing that the best psykers in the fluff are the worst psykers in the game!

p.s. Thanks for the collation

radiohazard wrote:

ubermosher wrote:Nice cut'n'paste of the Dude's Summary from Warseer.

At least you tweaked it a little.

There were bits taken from Warseer and bits added from me that they didn't have in there.

I do have the points values - but I'm not going against forum rules to add them.

Fair enough but at least try and give some credit if you going to take someone elses work in addition to your own

Brimstone wrote:

radiohazard wrote:

ubermosher wrote:Nice cut'n'paste of the Dude's Summary from Warseer.

At least you tweaked it a little.

There were bits taken from Warseer and bits added from me that they didn't have in there.

I do have the points values - but I'm not going against forum rules to add them.

Fair enough but at least try and give some credit if you going to take someone elses work in addition to your own

Done.

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:
Please let the first Legion Codex be for Thousand Sons. Its embarrassing that the best psykers in the fluff are the worst psykers in the game!

Who needs Legion Codexes? This is the BEST Chaos Codex ever!

airmang wrote:

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:
Please let the first Legion Codex be for Thousand Sons. Its embarrassing that the best psykers in the fluff are the worst psykers in the game!

Who needs Legion Codexes? This is the BEST Chaos Codex ever!

I'm thinking the same thing too.

Not so much Chaos or Renegade, but Marines that fight for the Emperor but do not agree with the crap of the Imperialist Dogma. Sorta like Souldrinkers without the SPider Psyker and other mutations.

thread fail AGAIN. this is the second time you've cut and pasted the dude's warseer thread and this time you've got the gall to call it two hours of your own work. was the first time you did this in dakka's main thread on the wolves and you were called out on it not enough to stop you from doing it again? here's a link to the source of 90% of the above info that was compiled by a good guy (or dude as it may be) including the pruning of rumors over 100 pages that turned out to be false over the course of several weeks:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212260

airmang wrote:

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:
Please let the first Legion Codex be for Thousand Sons. Its embarrassing that the best psykers in the fluff are the worst psykers in the game!

Who needs Legion Codexes? This is the BEST Chaos Codex ever!

This was pretty much my thought when I read it. Its like taking a World Eaters army and adding 3rd Edition Tzeench Sorcerers to it. As a Xenos player, my nerd rage is pretty mighty over this book. Maw severely hammers any Nid, Cron, or Ork army and it is still a safe investment against most MEQ armies. The other powers all seem aimed at skimmer armies (screw you Tau and Eldar!) while still being viable against other MEQs. And don't even get me started on the better than a SM Hood thing.

So if I had two criticisms of this book, they would be:
A) Giving Wolves a magic bullet against certain armies (especially ones they had issues contending with in the older book) should come with a downside. Right now, there is no downside to taking Wolf Psychers, as they work just fine with the same power loadouts against MEQ armies. I mean, honestly, should a 150 point model be able to have a 1 in 6 chance to drop every monolith on the table every turn or be virtually guarenteed to kill 1-2 Heavy Fexes a turn? With the powers still being point efficient against Marine armies? As an eldar player, I look at the Psycher abilities of the Wolves and wonder why the Farseers don't study with these guys.

B) They seem to have been able to take the best of all choices from every marine book (and some Xenos options that got taken away or are about to be taken away), with the exeption of Combat Squads. I mean, everyone agreed that Sustained Assault had to go from the Eldar book, but the Cheese Wolves now get it on a guy with 5 attacks and a S5 PW? I am sure the impending nerfing of Feeder Tendril Gene Stealers will be softened by the knowledge that the Wolf players can effectively add the same option for a few more points into their giant BloodClaw squad, but with more power weapon spam , including some of the S5 variety. And honestly, who needs anti tank when there are so many means to put a pair of meltas anywhere on the board without a chance of being stopped? And, really, grey hunters are way too undercosted, given that you can put a Mark of the Wolfen fist guy in there and they are decked out like Chaos Marines with all the marine bonuses and Counter Charge. That anger you marine players are feeling now comparing your tactical marines to grey hunters is the same rage I have when I realize that my flying warriors cost triple what your jump pack guys do or that my guardians cost nearly twice what a guardsman does with the same crappy statline and a worse gun.

Of course my Xenos nerd rage is a pale shadow of the kind of gut wrenching seething someone pooped in my cherios kind of uber nerd rage the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Templars must be feeling right now.

warboss wrote:thread fail AGAIN. this is the second time you've cut and pasted the dude's warseer thread and this time you've got the gall to call it two hours of your own work. was the first time you did this in dakka's main thread on the wolves and you were called out on it not enough to stop you from doing it again? here's a link to the source of 90% of the above info that was compiled by a good guy (or dude as it may be) including the pruning of rumors over 100 pages that turned out to be false over the course of several weeks:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212260

Cut and pasted yes - But added to it and corrected some of the info.

I don't see any of you making it easier for everyone to read all the info in one place so we don't have two open threads with very little confirmed knowledgable info.

I spent two hours in GW today reading the codex back to front and recorded as much of the info into my phone as I could (before being found out by the store guy who yoinked it off me).

I was linked across by a friend on Warseer who told me "just copy that and add the info you found out". Yeah much easier.

So back off Warboss, neither you or anyone else had the know-wots or drive to bother to add this amount of info onto Dakka.
I'm here to help the masses with whatever info I can get on their hobby to make stuff easier and if you think I just simply went into Warseer and just copied it all before going to GW - YOU ARE WRONG!!!

simple, then write what you recorded into your phone and don't copy and paste the warseer thread. you'll get credit for your internet "scoop" and you can link the rest so that the other person who effort completely dwarfs your own gets some credit too.

edit: feel free to get the last word. i won't be bothering you in your thread anymore.

This isn't just my thread - it's Dakka's thread, for anyone.

Edit: I'm not looking for any credit.

Having seen army lists that can be produced using this list, I don't think we have much to fear: they're very expensive and will get eaten by the same things that always eat small "elite" armies. Be cool to see Space Wolves take on a full horde of Orks though.

You know what, maybe if whoever on the Warseer thread had written any of the content of the book, I could see where this would be an issue.

If you're going to get angry about something Warboss, how about getting angry about having all of this copyrighted material plopped onto the internet?

Nice bit of plagiarism there.

As I say whenever a new codex comes out: It is way too early to say if this codex is over powered or not. Talk to me 6 months after the codex is released.

There are a lot of things that are slowing down this army. They really have no long range fire power, and they are almost a pure assault army. Good luck playing a mech Eldar player.

Remember all the nerd rage when psyker battle squads were first talked about? Now you never see them because they are just not worth it.

So people, settle down.

Hey you think thats bad, you do realize there are artists who take photos of other work, put the original artist name as the title and sell it for millions. Since so many people here are so darn moral, what are you doing on the net? Its a compilation of ripped material.

WarmasterScott wrote:Hey you think thats bad, you do realize there are artists who take photos of other work, put the original artist name as the title and sell it for millions. Since so many people here are so darn moral, what are you doing on the net? Its a compilation of ripped material.

Pics or it didn't happen.

It's kind of fun though. It is weren't for the "OMG! BORKEN!" crowd all we'd have left to talk about would be painting miniatures and tactics, and we all know how boring that would be. Besides, it's so much easier to just dump your miniatures on the table, and if they're not as good as someone else's miniatures, GW should man up, take your well-informed and carefully considered advice, and re-publish the codex the way is should have been written, tout suite.

Nurglitch wrote:It's kind of fun though. It is weren't for the "OMG! BORKEN!" crowd all we'd have left to talk about would be painting miniatures and tactics, and we all know how boring that would be. Besides, it's so much easier to just dump your miniatures on the table, and if they're not as good as someone else's miniatures, GW should man up, take your well-informed and carefully considered advice, and re-publish the codex the way is should have been written, tout suite.

Reverand!

This army is sooooo not broken.

Yes they get cheaper units, but their HQ's cost a fortune and you'll need those to be able to take other HQs out in combat.

Their bigger units like Thunderwolves also cost a fortune, but these guys will destroy just about any infantry there is.

Oh one thing added to the OP...

Thunderwolves for characters - Chracters get +1Str and +1 Toughness and gain Rending.

It is kind of funny that Thunderwolves are better than Juggernauts.

+++Drama spotted. Breaking topic to pursue. Vengeance is ours brothers.+++

+++Sustaining severe casualties. Tactical withdrawal and extraction impossible. The fallen shall be remembered in the annals of glory.+++

+++Thread failure imminent.+++

+++The Emperor Protects.+++

OT: The Headstrong rule is just dumb, why aren't they forced to charge instead of not shooting?

Nurglitch wrote:It is kind of funny that Thunderwolves are better than Juggernauts.

You think they are good for Characters, you should see the regular fast attack ones in combat.

I saw them tested at my local GW and they tore through just about every infantry unit we put them in front of.

They had trouble with Plague Marines and a really large unit of Orks, but they won out in the end.

Terminators are a real problem - but hey, SW have other ways of killing them.

5 Attacks a piece on the charge is just wrong for the price these guys are. You really want to replace the BP with the SS, because these guys should always be using Fleet.

One of the best units in the book IMO.

Yeah,
That isnt broken at all.....

My big question - how many months are we going to have to wait for GW to release Thunderwolf Calvary models? Are we going to have to convert our own from Canis?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jp400 wrote:Yeah,
That isnt broken at all.....

5 Thunderwolf Calvary cost 250pts, and that's BASE. No upgrades, nothing. It's a huge, and risky, point sink, but it can pay in dividends. Much like any of the other "broken" Space Wolf units.

Hey radio, thanks for the summary. I was tired of wading through everything. SOme of that stuff seems strong. The Njal's stom and the last laugh, but a lot of it seem pretty cool. I am actually looking forward to this book and I don't even play puppies.

I am wondering if podding wolves would be effective??

Right now, I am thinking about a bunch of Grey Hunters in pods with some supporting characters.

Thoughts??

Andilus Greatsword wrote:My big question - how many months are we going to have to wait for GW to release Thunderwolf Calvary models? Are we going to have to convert our own from Canis?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jp400 wrote:Yeah,
That isnt broken at all.....

5 Thunderwolf Calvary cost 250pts, and that's BASE. No upgrades, nothing. It's a huge, and risky, point sink, but it can pay in dividends. Much like any of the other "broken" Space Wolf units.

Probably ages to wait for GW ones, but I've been told FW have some being released soon, probably as soon as Games Day England.

Your point of the expense of this unit outweighs it's "Borkeness". This codex is actually very balanced. I own every 40K book since Rogue Trader and from what I've read it is one of my favourite ones.

Gobstomp420 wrote:Hey radio, thanks for the summary. I was tired of wading through everything. SOme of that stuff seems strong. The Njal's stom and the last laugh, but a lot of it seem pretty cool. I am actually looking forward to this book and I don't even play puppies.

No probs mate, thats why I did it.

The book is easily the most detailed and well put together books since the 2nd Ed books.

yeah it actually looks really good and unique

Blackmoor wrote:As I say whenever a new codex comes out: It is way too early to say if this codex is over powered or not. Talk to me 6 months after the codex is released.

There are a lot of things that are slowing down this army. They really have no long range fire power, and they are almost a pure assault army. Good luck playing a mech Eldar player.

Remember all the nerd rage when psyker battle squads were first talked about? Now you never see them because they are just not worth it.

So people, settle down.

In principle, I agree with you. But it does not take much creativity to put two guys with the "all your skimmers test dangerous every turn" power on the table, along with the mobile autocannon power, and royally bone mech eldar. The wolf player does not make any real sacrifices to do this, either. Toss in the fact that there can be a ton of double melta pod squads that can come in from any angle and mech-anything is in some serious trouble, but the addition of the psycher powers make it especially bad for mech eldar who now face 50% of their powers failing, rather than the normal 33%. These are things that will be effective and used frequently, theory hammer or not.

Now, there are some flaws with the book. Bloodclaws, once the staple troop of the army, are now pretty much backseat to Grey Hunters against anything not horde. The Russ is gone. If a Wolf player for some reason does not feel like fielding any drop pods, LRCs, Melta Speeders, or Rhinos he will still have issues dealing with distant mobile vehicles, though I have not seen a Wolf army without all of those things in abundance in years. The characters can be point sinks if you don't keep them cheap. The Sagas should have been free with the Oaths as mandatory drawbacks (why bother puting the oaths in the rules section if they have no game impact?). The rear attacking scouts were nerfed into the turf. The Venerable Dreadnaught is an overpriced piece of crap now, especially stacked against a standard issue siege dread. There is still no real point in taking the Wolf Captain equivalent. Some of the rules are shoddily written. The overall fist spamming has been greatly reduced. The special characters are so powerful that there is no reason not to take them, further entrenching us in SpecialCharacterHammer mode. On the plus side, the fluff section is nice and the book is better organized than most of the rescent codexes.

I just hate the way every SM book has been getting magic bullets for dealing with Xenos armies without having to actually adapt their lists. Even the most rescent Xenos lists (Orks and Eldar) have to make fairly massive sacrifices to have the capability to effectively deal with non-MEQ armies. The Wolves are more heinous, but the loyalists also have units with variable abilities that make sure they are useful no matter what is across the table from them, picking the perfect Thunderfire Round/Psychic Power setup/Combat Squad setup to address the (supposedly) more specialist xenos forces. Maybe my view is more jaded, since I hang out at the Battle Bunker (aka buy our models day care center for ADD kids), but its hard not to look at this book and think about how out of control the MEQ power creep has gotten in the last two books (and 5th edition) and see it as a mechanism to sell more MEQ models.

How is this codex bad at all? Exspensive hqs? Not all of them are exspensive - simply take one or dont take the sp. character ones.

This codex pretty much beasts on CSM codex and Gav thorpe = fail now.

His excuse can't hold this behind.


155 10 man Grey Huter Squads with 2x meltas >> a lot of basic marine squads out there lol.

Cuz they have CSM wargear + counter attack + wolf guard attachment + 2 cheap as hell meltas.




normal SM Sergant with a powerfist = 51 pts

CSM Champion w/ powerfist = 55 pts

SW Wolf guard with power fist = 38 pts




I'm not saying - SW is BROKEN.

I will say that it will cancel a lot of current codex's now.

Like why even play Blood Angels anymore too?!

haha

I've been trying to find an army that will pwn the SW and TBH, I'm having trouble finding one.
The SW appear to have an answer to everything and that answer appears to be very one sided and very powerful.
If you face Eldar and Tau, the SW players take Njal and cripple their skimmers. They also take a mech based force and take Blood Claws by the dozen.
Against Guard, I'd take a Cavalry based force as they can close in quickly and rip the poor Guardsmen to pieces.
MEQs are the problem as their armour is kinda hard to deal with, but SW have a lot more PW than them.

This power codex creep could be bad as at the moment this codex is sitting on top with the nids next.
I'm not looking fwd to the nod dex as it might be incredibly OTT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw I totally agree with rogue market.
From further reading the power gap between this and any other codex is huge. Saying that tho, the average SW army is a ton smaller than most other armies as a lot of players will want to take the unique SW units.

Some people claim that SW have no anti tank.


215 pts can buy me a 6-man 5x lascannon Long Fang Team.


A normal SM devastator squad can't - due to the built in SGT squad.


heh insane in the cranium!

A Space Marine Devastator squad can only take four Lascannons, but they also have a Signum, can combat squad to replicate the Long Fang's ability to split fire, and split incoming fire amongst themselves. They can also take bullet-catchers, so that the squad doesn't lose a Heavy Weapon with every wound. A bit of a dead heat that.

So, models riding wolves have Str10 fists and Str6 Frost weapon things? That's kind of interesting...

Also, how does one determine which model kills Lukas if he falls to a bunch of tac marines or something by taking 4 wounds? Is there a little more clarity on what that means?

Some people claim that SW have no anti tank.

It's not that the SW don't have anti-tank, it's that they lack long ranged fire support, for the most part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wehrkind wrote:So, models riding wolves have Str10 fists and Str6 Frost weapon things? That's kind of interesting...

Also, how does one determine which model kills Lukas if he falls to a bunch of tac marines or something by taking 4 wounds? Is there a little more clarity on what that means?

If they're all the same model in base contact, I'd just pick one. Doesn't really matter which.

But you'd have to be an idiot to charge Lukas, just shoot the er.

Seems to be the answer to the army. Shoot them before they reach you. It'd be fun to send the Rhinos forward while everyone hangs back and shoots the tank-shocked Space Wolves.

Nurglitch wrote:Seems to be the answer to the army. Shoot them before they reach you. It'd be fun to send the Rhinos forward while everyone hangs back and shoots the tank-shocked Space Wolves.

That's pretty much how Space Wolves have always operated, from my experience anyway. Survive the first couple shooting phases and then rip your enemy to shreds in CQC.

Ok I will try asking this here as the thread is not as huge or off topic as the others.

Is the wording you used about troop payloads correct to your knowledge? I ask this because there has been talk like "Either you take a WGL and one special weapon, or you take two specials and no leader". In the SM codex you start with 4 tac marines and 1 sargeant and may add 5 tac marines, which totals 10 and you get both special weapons correct? The wording you used said if the GH squad numbers 10 "MODELS" then you get the extra weapon. Is the WGL counted in that 10 models? You also said under their entry that they may be "added" to units, but this still does not answer my question about counting towards the total.

Basically asking if someone with access to a book can verify the wording. If it is as the standard codex we would get 2 specials AND the WGL. If it is adding the leader after the fact and the wording does not read "10 models" then I would conceed that we do not get the weapon. I would also understand due to our leaders being alot more versatile than a SM tac squad leader, but I am just looking for some more confirmation before I go model/paint the 6 guys to replace all my extra special weapons I will soon have.

I think it would be Str 9 fists like fists and furious charge, but yeah Str 6 frost weapons.

Kaotik wrote:Ok I will try asking this here as the thread is not as huge or off topic as the others.

Is the wording you used about troop payloads correct to your knowledge? I ask this because there has been talk like "Either you take a WGL and one special weapon, or you take two specials and no leader". In the SM codex you start with 4 tac marines and 1 sargeant and may add 5 tac marines, which totals 10 and you get both special weapons correct? The wording you used said if the GH squad numbers 10 "MODELS" then you get the extra weapon. Is the WGL counted in that 10 models? You also said under their entry that they may be "added" to units, but this still does not answer my question about counting towards the total.

Basically asking if someone with access to a book can verify the wording. If it is as the standard codex we would get 2 specials AND the WGL. If it is adding the leader after the fact and the wording does not read "10 models" then I would conceed that we do not get the weapon. I would also understand due to our leaders being alot more versatile than a SM tac squad leader, but I am just looking for some more confirmation before I go model/paint the 6 guys to replace all my extra special weapons I will soon have.

WGL is NOT an option entry in the GHunter's entry.


Its under the WGuard listing in elites - as a mock up termie squad potentially.

Says you can divide it into certain squads.

You can have have an 11 man squad with a WGL leader.

Howver yo cannot rhino it up.

But you do get that free 2nd melta.

It's not that the SW don't have anti-tank, it's that they lack long ranged fire support, for the most part.

I don't quite exactly follow up with this only because of a few things...


What made up SM long ranged fire support? Tactical squad with a heavy weapon? GHunters dont have that.. but htey got two sp. weps very cheap.

But the long fangs make up far for it.


1. Less pts cuz they dont need a sgt mandatory built in
2. Split fire
3. Can take 5 weapons instead of 4 in the traditional SM codex.
4. You can toss in a Wolf guard with the Long fangs with cylcone missiles. hahaha.

SW also has the good old other vehicles as welll.

Dunno if anyone else has posted this, so here goes.

Started work at my local GW today, and my first task was to assemble a legal squad of 10 Grey Hunters from half a Wolf Pack box, and a Tactical Box.

Grabbed book, pored over it, and settled on the squad having 1 x Power Fist, 1 x Plasma Gun, 1 x Flamer* 1 x Plasma Pistol and 1 x Wolf Banner, with an attached Wolf Guard wielding a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield.

From half the Wolf Pack, I was able to successfully construct all 11 models looking distinctly Space Wolf. You'll have to be careful with some of the heads though, as the flow of the hair restricts them to certain facings, which can be a pain. Overall pretty impressed with the flexibility of the set, though I was slightly suspect about the heads fitting into their sockets properly. Might have just been the way I was constructing them. Nothing major to worry about, as at worst a little blob of Greenstuff or even Blu-Tak will sort this.

RogueMarket wrote:

Kaotik wrote:Ok I will try asking this here as the thread is not as huge or off topic as the others.

Is the wording you used about troop payloads correct to your knowledge? I ask this because there has been talk like "Either you take a WGL and one special weapon, or you take two specials and no leader". In the SM codex you start with 4 tac marines and 1 sargeant and may add 5 tac marines, which totals 10 and you get both special weapons correct? The wording you used said if the GH squad numbers 10 "MODELS" then you get the extra weapon. Is the WGL counted in that 10 models? You also said under their entry that they may be "added" to units, but this still does not answer my question about counting towards the total.

Basically asking if someone with access to a book can verify the wording. If it is as the standard codex we would get 2 specials AND the WGL. If it is adding the leader after the fact and the wording does not read "10 models" then I would conceed that we do not get the weapon. I would also understand due to our leaders being alot more versatile than a SM tac squad leader, but I am just looking for some more confirmation before I go model/paint the 6 guys to replace all my extra special weapons I will soon have.

WGL is NOT an option entry in the GHunter's entry.


Its under the WGuard listing in elites - as a mock up termie squad potentially.

Says you can divide it into certain squads.

You can have have an 11 man squad with a WGL leader.

Howver yo cannot rhino it up.

But you do get that free 2nd melta.

Thanks for the info, I assumed it was that way since a WGL >>> Standard Sargeant. Oh well I guess I just have to replace those guys when I build my new units of Skyclaws.


I also thought of sticking the WGL in with the Long Fangs for the Cyclone.

radiohazard wrote:I think it would be Str 9 fists like fists and furious charge, but yeah Str 6 frost weapons.

Well, it looks like the Wolf Riders unit are all Str 5 base, so they definitely are Str10 with fists. I would think with the IC's that the wolf would make them Str5 first, then doubled with the fists, but I don't really know. It will probably end up being an argument in YMDC soon enough.

With Lukas and who killed him it will be an issue when your opponant throws dice for 5 marines, one with melta, and ends up with 4 unsaved wounds. Whoops... didn't seperate attacks, so was it the melta that killed him? What if each had 1 attack, and so each "killed" him? Do only three get pulled, since the first wound wasn't enough to kill him?

With Lukas, if memory serves (and assuming I read it right!) it's anyone and everyone in Base to Base that becomes a fellow casualty, thus the question of who precisely nobbled him shouldn't come up.

And it does pose a rather amusing possibility of deliberately getting him stomped on off a Titan in Apocalypse....or indeed anything big and gribbly in Apocalypse for that matter.

am I the only one who sees a potential rules lawyer abuse? I'm praying that this isn't quoted verbatim because "The Last Laugh" rule as written here doesn't stipulate whether the killer has to be in CC or not:

"Lukas the Trickster - WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld8 Sv3+
Blood Claw upgrade. Plasma Pistol, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Wolf Claw.
Pelt of the Doppegangrel - Forces the enemy to re-roll successful to-hit rolls.
Rebellious - Causes his Squad to be capped at his Ld8 regardless of other upgrades.
The Last Laugh - On his death Lukas and the model that killed him are removed then both players roll a D6. If the SW player rolls equal to or higher than their opponent, all models within Base to Base contact with Lukas (friend or foe) are removed. "

Read the bold and pray to whatever god you want that this is just a misquote on the part of the OP

Paraphrasing from the OP I think.

Will check the book tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure it stipulates it has to be in HTH combat for that to work.

am I the only one who sees a potential rules lawyer abuse? I'm praying that this isn't quoted verbatim because "The Last Laugh" rule as written here doesn't stipulate whether the killer has to be in CC or not:

"Lukas the Trickster - WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld8 Sv3+
Blood Claw upgrade. Plasma Pistol, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Wolf Claw.
Pelt of the Doppegangrel - Forces the enemy to re-roll successful to-hit rolls.
Rebellious - Causes his Squad to be capped at his Ld8 regardless of other upgrades.
The Last Laugh - On his death Lukas and the model that killed him are removed then both players roll a D6. If the SW player rolls equal to or higher than their opponent, all models within Base to Base contact with Lukas (friend or foe) are removed. "

Read the bold and pray to whatever god you want that this is just a misquote on the part of the OP

The book states:

"Should lukas EVER be removed from play"

Shooting included.



However, it seems to be fully intended to be straight for CC, hoever it never states that it HAS to be. heh.

Not being rude skip, but have you just read that from the book, or is it from memory/Interweb rumours?

ignore - double post.

Read it from the actual book

No offense taken at all.



"Should Lukas ever be removed from play, both player rolls dice"

Don't want to copy more exact verbatim but those are the exact words in the sp. rule entry ;P


iPhone FTW...

you're missing my point, if I use eldrad and mindwar him to death then eldrad is gone........period

There is no way in hell that stasis grenade is going to help at range.

The trick is to just not get in combat with him.

I believe a fair quote would be:

"If the pikey, Turkish or his Girlfriend come out before us... shoot the b******s."

LucasLAD wrote:am I the only one who sees a potential rules lawyer abuse? I'm praying that this isn't quoted verbatim because "The Last Laugh" rule as written here doesn't stipulate whether the killer has to be in CC or not:

"Lukas the Trickster - WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld8 Sv3+
Blood Claw upgrade. Plasma Pistol, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Wolf Claw.
Pelt of the Doppegangrel - Forces the enemy to re-roll successful to-hit rolls.
Rebellious - Causes his Squad to be capped at his Ld8 regardless of other upgrades.
The Last Laugh - On his death Lukas and the model that killed him are removed then both players roll a D6. If the SW player rolls equal to or higher than their opponent, all models within Base to Base contact with Lukas (friend or foe) are removed. "

Read the bold and pray to whatever god you want that this is just a misquote on the part of the OP

Wow, that's actually really stupid, I'll admit. But it doesn't affect vehicles, right?

LucasLAD wrote:you're missing my point, if I use eldrad and mindwar him to death then eldrad is gone........period

No.

Sorry to finish up the sp. rule entry - it'll clarify your concern.


"If SW player rolls equal or higher than opponent, all models in base contact are removed"

Not the attacker, unless he is base contact.



The paraphrased version is not exactly worded right.

The one I just quoted above - is exactly verbatim from the SW dex.

It reads model unfortunately. Omg the rulings at GTs on this are gonna be tricky.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

LucasLAD wrote:am I the only one who sees a potential rules lawyer abuse? I'm praying that this isn't quoted verbatim because "The Last Laugh" rule as written here doesn't stipulate whether the killer has to be in CC or not:

"Lukas the Trickster - WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld8 Sv3+
Blood Claw upgrade. Plasma Pistol, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Wolf Claw.
Pelt of the Doppegangrel - Forces the enemy to re-roll successful to-hit rolls.
Rebellious - Causes his Squad to be capped at his Ld8 regardless of other upgrades.
The Last Laugh - On his death Lukas and the model that killed him are removed then both players roll a D6. If the SW player rolls equal to or higher than their opponent, all models within Base to Base contact with Lukas (friend or foe) are removed. "

Read the bold and pray to whatever god you want that this is just a misquote on the part of the OP

Wow, that's actually really stupid, I'll admit. But it doesn't affect vehicles, right?

RAW why wouldn't it? Vehicles are models after all. Shoot with a Vindicator, I win, Vindicator disappears like a bad scripting error.

I officially don't like Lukas now, no matter how useful he is. He does throw a wrench into things were your opponent is trying his hardest NOT to kill the bastard though.

They'll be a rules clarification on the gw site eventually. As it stands his rules are broken and need fixing by adding a couple of sentences.

Again, after further reading, there is a fair amount of this book that needs fixing. I think the drop pod capacity is incorrect as is the afore mentioned stasis bomb rules for lukas.
There's also a lot of clarification needed for the "line of death" psychic power.

Yeah, other than those 2 issues, the Codex is awesome. I play for fun, and I like it when my opponent is having fun as well, so I'm going to try to avoid using those crazy options.

If they are indeed broken as you say, then you've got to wonder how the rule managed to make it so far as it is before getting edited.

The book has not come out yet and peopl are finiding problems is there a actual proof reader at GW seriously?

What is written is that Lukas and the killing model are removed THEN you dice off and then that will determine if any additional models are removed.

an unstoppable unit insta killer:

Nightbringer no problem
Monolith dead
Eternal warrior? Negative you're toast


as for why this got past editing? It's GW.....Valkyrie anyone?

Wow- this is going to be fun to play. So long as it doesn't herald a system-wide return to Herohammer, one codex that specializes in super-characters is a great idea. They will be a blast to play against, if perhaps a bit annoying in one-offs where they can tailor to defeat any army you bring against them.

Also, I think we have found the new flavor of counts-as. A World Eaters army using these rules could be both thematic and effective. Thunderwolves into Crushers, Kharn the Counts-As-Whatever, Blood Claw 'Zerkers, etc. You probably won't even have to adapt many models. Same goes for Black Legion, Blood Angels, etc. ad nauseum.

I'm going to do the codex as a counts as for my SM army no doubt. Not because I think it's more powerful, just because it fits my army style more. I've had 3 LC PA sergeants on the shelf since the latest marine codex and now they are back! WOOT!

Oh and the idea of World Eaters counts as is gonna be sweet when someone finally makes an army up of them!

ws3 berzerkers no thanks. My current berzerker army does just fine.(with 2 lash princes)

Some Corrections on Arjac:
-His save is 2+
-He has Grimnar's Champion Sp rule that allows him to reroll to hit in CC


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skkipper wrote:ws3 berzerkers no thanks. My current berzerker army does just fine.(with 2 lash princes)

Now just make them about half the points and you have blood claws.

EDIT: Sorry for multiple edits. The rules for Lukas are exacly as descibed above.

blood claws hit on three and wound on threes on the charge versus meq? I don't think so.
lets just go with half cost

60 attacks 30 hits 15 wounds 5 dead

30 attacks 20 hits 13 wounds 4 dead

the difference those 4 don't get the swings back and I still have 3 attacks next round and blood claws have 2


berzerkers are better

I think what a LOT of people are missing about Lukas is that he is an Upgrade character and not an independant character, so you could allocate wounds to him as you please....

Oh, my blood claws got charged by abbbbabadobabdbon? not in base contact with Lukas? oh well, you did how many wounds? well the first one is on Lukas..... Oh look at that, abbbbabadobabdon is gone.

skkipper wrote:blood claws hit on three and wound on threes on the charge versus meq? I don't think so.
lets just go with half cost

60 attacks 30 hits 15 wounds 5 dead

30 attacks 20 hits 13 wounds 4 dead

the difference those 4 don't get the swings back and I still have 3 attacks next round and blood claws have 2


berzerkers are better

Incorrect. Counter-Charge.

was going to say counterattack as well.


Even if your zerkers are godly - its just one unit choice versus a mass selection of CC beasts in the SW aresenal yeah?.

The weakness of wolves is and has always been their 12' range. Other than vehicles and long fangs only cyclones shoot over 24.

They will have to take the fight to you, and any GH or BC pack that sits back to claim objectives can't contribute much to combat. Also, without 2-3 PF in the packs the close combat menace is reduced. Note, they lost gate and have no sternguard equivalent, so CC will be the common method for dealing with MC.

SWs will be taking high casualties and don't have cheap combat squads to hold rear objectives. I think after some time most players will find that SWs are not broken at all, especially after a few last minute objective grabs with outflanking units.

Blood claws >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zerkers.

More attacks and cheaper.

I didn't see Arjak's 2+ save or the other rule. I wasn't all that interested in WG TBH, but I'll have a look tomorrow for it before I put it in.

I really really like this army. I'm going to sell off all my Tau and start collecting SW. Not just for the OTT - which it is, but because I want to collect my first ever army all over again and because I love Vikings.

Why is everyone so hyped about blood claws?
I've got a unit that's better than blood claws. It's called assault marines. They get increased WS and BS, and instead of one additional attack on the charge... they get one additional attack on the charge that hits at initiative infinity and has AP 5. It's called a bolt pistol.

Durandal wrote:
They will have to take the fight to you, and any GH or BC pack that sits back to claim objectives can't contribute much to combat. Also, without 2-3 PF in the packs the close combat menace is reduced. Note, they lost gate and have no sternguard equivalent, so CC will be the common method for dealing with MC.

We never had Gate.

Durandal wrote:
SWs will be taking high casualties and don't have cheap combat squads to hold rear objectives. I think after some time most players will find that SWs are not broken at all, especially after a few last minute objective grabs with outflanking units.

QFT.

currently I run a barebones, min sized unupgraded unit of Grey Hunters inside a vehicle (Rhino, Razorback, Land Raider Godhammer) just to capture backfield objectives. If my opponent realizes (in an objctive game, obviously) that the key to my victory is contesting their objectives with my army, and holding just one with that unit, I usually end up losing. Not many people think that a 102 point unit with just 6 grey hunters that dont even have boltguns is worth their time though.

ph34r wrote:Why is everyone so hyped about blood claws?
I've got a unit that's better than blood claws. It's called assault marines. They get increased WS and BS, and instead of one additional attack on the charge... they get one additional attack on the charge that hits at initiative infinity and has AP 5. It's called a bolt pistol.

Ill tell you why blood claws with jump packs are better. More attacks, large squad size, and dirt cheap. Admittedly, they're not the best, and grey hunters are SO much better, but blood claws are still pretty good.

Let's not forget the evil things that Slaanesh-aligned units will do at I5 to the I4 Space Wolves, or Plague Marines destroying Blood Claws because Blight Grenades cancel out charge bonuses, or heck, a Lord of Slaanesh using a Blissgiver to maul Space Wolf characters. Heck, I'd love to see a unit of Blood Claws run into Lucius: After he thins them out a bit they'd get A3 on the charge, 5+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and then Sv3+ or Iv5+ to save with each one of those successful saves killing another Blood Claw. Lucius may not survive, but the sheer mutual destruction would be hilarious.

ph34r wrote:Why is everyone so hyped about blood claws?
I've got a unit that's better than blood claws. It's called assault marines. They get increased WS and BS, and instead of one additional attack on the charge... they get one additional attack on the charge that hits at initiative infinity and has AP 5. It's called a bolt pistol.

I dont know, in the current 'dex Blood Claws are pretty damn good, in the new 'dex Grey Hunters overshadow them IMO.

Except none of those things can be taken in the Space Wolf 'Dex.

So Space Wolf Players get excited about Blood Claws.

The more I look at the list posted, the more I see things to exploit. The low WS of Blood Claws, for example. Or the fact that they don't appear to have combat squads. Small things, almost invisible, yet significant.

Blood Claws and Grey Hunters can have a Power Fist, for what, one attack? Two on the charge? I wonder what they'll be charged for it.

Blood Claws only getting a second special weapon at 15? It's free, but you'll need those extra points for a Crusader to tote them around!

Anyone know what the capacity of a Space Wolf Rhino is? If it's ten, like I think the Drop Pod is, then you won't be able to fit a Wolf Guard and a second special weapon into the same Rhino-borne squad.

I think we'll see what happened with the Vanguard, but on a grand-scale. At first people will be blown away by the possibilities, then they'll realize just how hard those possibilities are to pull off when you're dealing with a points-cap, and finally we'll be left with a small rump of fanatical Space Wolf players determined to make it work or die trying.

In fact, I offer a reward to the first player that publishes a battle report, with pictures mind you, where Logan Grimnar gets Spawned by a Gift of Chaos.

Blood claws are good - but grey hunters = where all the super beneifts are at.

Lone Wolves are freakin insain. Also, to anyone that thinks this will be CRAZY OVERPOWER DUDE, try and build a good deathwing army. It's hard as HELL to include what you want when everything costs 250 points for the most part and that's not even meched up.

Try this disguisting combo for Lone Wolves:

Terminator Armor; Storm Shield; Chainfist.

HOLY S%*$! 2+ / 3+ FNP Eternal Warrior with 2 wounds and a Chainfist. For 85 points. Oh, don't forget hes got Saga they got Beastslayer top so uhh your MC's and Walkers and anything T5+ are screwed. Oh yeah, he can also board a LR if you have one handy.

In steleks words: "This is the Dreadnought you always wanted, but were afraid to ask Santa for."

So for 170 points for two? Yes I will take them! For more fun add Wolves to make sure that he will be able to avoid those pesky AP denying shots!

The SW landraider carries only 10 models, so it is not the same as the SM one. I was confused by that when I looked at the book.

Interesting: so both the Phobos Pattern Land Raider and the Drop Pod only carry 10 models each?

I suppose now would be the time to make sarky comments about them buying second-hand Chaos merchandise where the jump-seats have been torns out to make room for a chain-sword rack.

Nurglitch wrote:Let's not forget the evil things that Slaanesh-aligned units will do at I5 to the I4 Space Wolves, or Plague Marines destroying Blood Claws because Blight Grenades cancel out charge bonuses, or heck, a Lord of Slaanesh using a Blissgiver to maul Space Wolf characters. Heck, I'd love to see a unit of Blood Claws run into Lucius: After he thins them out a bit they'd get A3 on the charge, 5+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and then Sv3+ or Iv5+ to save with each one of those successful saves killing another Blood Claw. Lucius may not survive, but the sheer mutual destruction would be hilarious.

Not each of those saves. Half of those saves [it's a S4 hit].

And sure. Lucius kills.... maybe half the unit in his death throes. Ok.... what can't do that? A squad of plaguemarines, a squad of CSM, a squad of banshees, pretty much a unit of anything that either shot them on their way in, or is also a combat-based unit and fought them in hth, would probably do about the same thing - reduce them by half, on a bad day [and win on a good one]. Lucius has FOUR, count them FOUR attacks AFTER his bonus for extra ccw. That's the same as a terminator aspiring champion, or a basic chaos lord, with 2x ccw. Same as Abaddon [who'll of course end up with 6+ after his roll, provided he doesn't STAB HIMSELF IN THE FACE]. Also, his WS of 7 actually lessens the blow to the blood claws, since they hit him less. Ugh, it sickens me whenever someone thinks about using the Lucius "bomb". Just buy a lash prince [for cheaper], back out of 24" of the rune priest that will guaranteed be in every army, lash the blood claws into a tight space and battle cannon them with defilers. More points, but still alive and kills more.

God, I've just got to do the math. 15 BCs, charging. that's what, 60 attacks? [only ones in btb with him lose the attack from the whip, so I won't even count it] 20 hit, 10 wound. Lucius passes 7 and fails 3 saves. He's now dead, and does 7 S4 hits to the enemy, which wound on 4+. After he's killed MAYBE 2 [4 attacks, 3 to hit, 4 to wound]. Wow, it's even worse than I thought. The daemon prince actually hands-down fights them better than Lucius, with higher S, same I, same WS, but higher T. He even stands a decent chance to win or tie the combat.



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Nurglitch wrote:Interesting: so both the Phobos Pattern Land Raider and the Drop Pod only carry 10 models each?

I suppose now would be the time to make sarky comments about them buying second-hand Chaos merchandise where the jump-seats have been torns out to make room for a chain-sword rack.

It's for all those meltaguns for the grey hunters. Since they're half the cost of CSM ones and/or FREE.

malfred wrote:Except none of those things can be taken in the Space Wolf 'Dex.

So Space Wolf Players get excited about Blood Claws.

Right, everyone is excited about blood claws and blood claw jump pack troopers, but they are just the same as assault marines just swapping bolt pistol attack for additional charge attack if you are looking at blood claw jump packers, and they are the same as grey hunters if you look at non-jump packers. It's like people look at the +2 and think "holy crap" while forgetting that they lose out on the bolt pistol shot due to the "can't shoot if you can charge" rule.

Nurglitch wrote:Let's not forget the evil things that Slaanesh-aligned units will do at I5 to the I4 Space Wolves, or Plague Marines destroying Blood Claws because Blight Grenades cancel out charge bonuses, or heck, a Lord of Slaanesh using a Blissgiver to maul Space Wolf characters. Heck, I'd love to see a unit of Blood Claws run into Lucius: After he thins them out a bit they'd get A3 on the charge, 5+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and then Sv3+ or Iv5+ to save with each one of those successful saves killing another Blood Claw. Lucius may not survive, but the sheer mutual destruction would be hilarious.

They will not cancel out the charges. It is not a charge bonus, it simply states that they get 2 attacks for charging. This was once a heated debate versus the Necron's Gaze of Flame.

They get 2 attacks for charging instead of the +1 for charging. Blight grenades cancel it out, as you don't get the +1, so you won't be able to get something else instead of it.

Spellbound:

I think you've mis-estimated Lucius' impact. Suppose a unit of Blood Claws charged him.

Lucius gets his four attacks, 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, let's call it two hits for convenience. One wound. Woot.

So if the Space Wolf player is clever, and to make this easier, he'll remove the one Blood Claw in base to base with Lucius, leaving two others.

So, nine Blood Claws have 36 attacks. 12 hit on 5+, 6 wound on 4+, 4 saves on 3+, giving 2 wounds to Lucius, and 2 wounds to the Blood Claws.

In the end it's 3:2 in favour of Lucius. The Blood Claws need a 7 or less to pass. If the Blood Claws fail, he'll catch them in a Sweeping Advance for perhaps another Blood Claw, but let's suppose he doesn't and the Blood Claws move to surround him.

You can get six Blood Claws into combat with Lucius, who's on his last wound. This is good because there's seven Blood Claws left.

In the next assault phase, Lucius hits first again. Causes another wound. Behold the might and the fury. Dude's gotta stop playing with his food.

The Blood Claws are reduced to 6 attacks, because they no longer have the charge bonus and there's only the six left in base to base with Lucius and his Lash of Torment. So 2 hits on 5+, 1 wounds on 4+, he likely saves. On average he likely kills another Blood Claw with the Armour of Shrieking Souls.

So now the Blood Claws lose 2:0. They can pass on a 6 or suffer two Sweeping Advance hits. Odds are that it'll get one of them. That leaves four Blood Claws.

Lucius gets his average, leaving three Blood Claws. They get their hit, and probably either wound and get whacked by Lucius's armour, or don't wound and do nothing. Three little Blood Claws left.

And so on.

So, on average, Lucius will eat a pack of Blood Claws.

Speaking of Rhinos though: If a pack of Grey Hunters needs 10 Grey Hunters for a second free Melta Gun, and a Rhino only has space for ten, doesn't that make it as choice between a Melta Gun and a Wolfguard Leader? That's not exactly free.


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ph34r:

Isn't it the case that the Blood Claws only lose out on the Bolt Pistols if they aren't led by a Wolf Guard? I'd say that they lose out on the WS more than anything.

Edit: Corrected some math

10 Blood Claws vs Lucius, whether one, two, or three get into back to base contact, for the sake of argument at least one of them stays in base to base contact after Lucius is done cutting, and the rest are within 2" of him or Lucius. Whether it's 34 or 36 attacks, the average is 12 hit, 6 wounds, 4 saves, 2 wounds on him, 2 on the enemy. Lucius wins 3:2.

Round two 7 Blood Claws vs Lucius, surrounding him with six. The seventh is killed by Lucius, so 6 attacks, the average is 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 save, 1 on the enemy. Lucius wins 2:0.

Round three: 5 Blood Claws vs Lucius. Four survive, so 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1 wound, 1 save, 1 on the enemy, Lucius wins 2:0.

Round four: 3 Blood Claws vs Lucius. Two survive, so 2 attacks, 1 hit, 1 wound, 1 save, 1 on the enemy, Lucius winds by 2:0.

Round five: Lucius wins by massacre. That's if he didn't inflict any No Retreat casualties and shut down the Blood Claws earlier.

Suppose Lucius attacked the Blood Claws. That's 5 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds. There's eight left, so supposing that they pass their Counter-Attack leadership test, they have A3 each for 24 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 3 saves, 1 wound on Lucius and 2 on the Blood Claws. Lucius wins 4:1. If the Blood Claws fail their Leadership and get caught in a Sweeping Advance, they'll lose another body.

Round two, Lucius is surrounded by the Blood Claws again. As above he scores a single casualty now that the extra attack tipping him into an average of two per round is gone. There's six Blood Claws left. 6 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, probably saves, probably kills another Blood Claw. Etc.

Ive had this problem so many times, its not even funny. You can ask any GW employee, reread any rules, and it always come out with the blood claws getting the +2. In the rules it says "Blood Claws get +2 attacks for charging" and Blight grenades cancel out charging bonuses. Not special rules.

jab4962:

Hey, that's great, take it to YMDC.

Nurglitch wrote:jab4962:

Hey, that's great, take it to YMDC.

I would if it felt important enough, but he brought it up in this thread, so i rebuffed while staying on topic of the blood claws.

I seriously think the transport caps are all mistakes. I know GW has done this in the past, but we should have confirmation in the Q&A on the GW site at some point.

I like the transport caps: they definitely make the player make a choice between the bonuses conferred on a full squad, and the advantages conferred by the accompanying character. Plus it gives some sense to things like Razorbacks, and Crusaders, and so on.

Besides, the whole point of the Razorback being able to seat 6 Marines originally was because it as a command vehicle so that a character could accompany a combat squad of Marines. It's very 2nd edition, but it works.

Ahahaha!!!

I have the codex in front of me this very moment. If anyone has any specific questions in the next 90 minutes or so, I may be able to help you out.



This is very, very cool.

Transport capacity of various vehicles: what are they?

What's up with the Lukas dude?

How does that MAW psychic power work, exactly?

Points costs for frost blade, power fist, chain fist, thunderhammer, or storm shield if you are a wolf guard in terminator armor?

And do venerable dreadnoughts let you re-roll for first turn?

Oh, and is Logan the only terminator armor character?

Nurglitch wrote:Transport capacity of various vehicles: what are they?

What's up with the Lukas dude?

How does that MAW psychic power work, exactly?

Land Raider: 10
LR Redeemer: 12
LR Crusader: 16
Rhino: 10
Razorback: 6

Lukas has a statis bomb wired in place of his secondary heart, so if the primary stops beating...
both players roll a D6, if equal to or over the opponent's roll, all models in contact with Lukas are REMOVED FROM THE GAME.
EDIT: All successful hits against him must be rerolled, and his squad (he is upgraded from a Blood Claw) has a maximum leadership of 8 due to his rebelliousness.


The 'Jaws of the World Wolf' is a 24" straight line psychic power, shooting phase... ignores terrain, models contacted by line take an initiative test or are REMOVED FROM THE GAME.
Monstrous creatures may subtract 1 from their die roll, 6's are auto fails as usual.

...or did you mean something else by 'MAW'?

ph34r wrote:Points costs for frost blade, power fist, chain fist, thunderhammer, or storm shield if you are a wolf guard in terminator armor?

And do venerable dreadnoughts let you re-roll for first turn?

Oh, and is Logan the only terminator armor character?

I'm not going to quote points costs, but trust me, Wolf Guard are cheap, cheap cheap.

Venerable Dreadnoughts do not let you re-roll for first turn as far as I can tell. (Bjorn does though)

Logan does not have an option for >Power Armour<, but Njal has an upgrade option to Runic Terminator Armour as detailed in the original post.

What exactly does Bjorn do and what is his cost.


Give a in depth of Sagas?

Kind of wondering basically which ones apply to the whole army
Kind of curious about that.


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Ie what does Saga of the hunter actually do?

Does it confer outflank and infiltrate to just the Wolf Lord?


Also more about the Lone Wolf please.

@Arctik_Firangi
Logan is clearly modeled in terminator armor and has it under the old rules. But thanks for reminding me about Njal.
EDIT: And how many points does terminator Njal cost? Or will you explain everything in great detail except points?

it's 25 points to put Njal in termi-armor. Pretty sure that makes him the same cost as Logan

We need answers :(

Not that interested in sagas so I didn't read up to heavily on them though it seems at most they help an extra unit, not the entire army.

As for lonewolves they've been covered multiple times. 2W, WS5, 2A, I4 with eternal warrior, feel no pain, base 20pts, with a ridiculous number of equipment options. Single choice per entry (think marbo). Give up a kill point if they don't die, 0 KP's if they do die.

To answer those, saga's are character specific only, their are none that apply to entirity of the army, just the character you purchased it for.

Arjac Rockfist is another character in terminator armour, although he is a wolf guard upgrade.

Thanks to artik firang for the confirmation and insight from the codex. Most helpful.

Winter wrote:To answer those, saga's are character specific only, their are none that apply to entirity of the army, just the character you purchased it for.

Arjac Rockfist is another character in terminator armour, although he is a wolf guard upgrade.

Oh? I thought he did not have terminator armor? This is great news if he does.
EDIT: or is it an upgrade for him?

Also does logan still have his "+1 attack for a turn in x radius" aka holy relic ability?

Thanks ph34r.

Totally forgot about that Logan rule. Will check on it today and put it up.

Sorry about that typo, ph34r, I meant that Logan does not have an option for POWER armour, as it was rumoured he would in the same fashion as Calgar.

I had to go back to work, so sorry about the questions that missed out. I should be able to grab another look in the next 24 hours, so keep the questions coming. Looks like radiohazard might be able to fill in the gaps a bit quicker than me though.

Sagas are definitely 'wargear'-like upgrades as far as their purchase, but their effects are pretty diverse. I can't recall if that Outflank one confers it to his squad, but it would make sense.

Bjorn is definitely 13/12/10, gets a 5+ save against glancing and penetrating hits in addition to his Venerable re-roll, and I honestly can't remember what else. I spent a lot of time fawning over the new sprues. I can possibly bump up photos of those tomorrow if they're not online yet.

Not going to go into point costs (irrelevant when you don't know the entire list anyway), but I will say that Wolf Guard are 18pts, and Grey Hunters/Blood Claws are each 15 pts. Blood Claws don't get the Berserk bonus attack on a counter charge.

Njal Stormcaller is going to be a real favorite character as far as I can tell.
Consider +25 for Termi armour confirmed.

Fluff-wise, lone wolves are basically the sole survivors of their packs / companies, and very, very pissed off.

Wow lots of helpful folks today.

At first I was completely against Bjorn, but after testing him, he is a monster. Easily the toughest vehicle in non apocalypse games.

I was only going to collect a cavalry force, but now I want it all. I'm talking an entire company.

I'll have more info up when I get it, I just can't be bothered to get out of bed ATM. Watching Monday Night Raw live in England is a killer when it finishes at 4:15 am.

And rockfist is confirmed as terminator armor?
One more thing, are lone wolves 1 per elite slot, or can you take multiple that act separately ala 1-3 lictors/zoanthropes etc.

Question - is the Thunderwolf cavalry still 3+ save?

Because if it is then that's 250 pts (min) of hard to hide uber-unit that's practically begging to take a battlecannon round (or equivalent) to the face.

From what I've read so far, well played IG (although air cav would struggle) should munch the new puppies.

However broken some elements are against certain armies, their vulnerabilities will stop them from becoming game-breaking overall.

just my $0.02

ph34r wrote:And rockfist is confirmed as terminator armor?
One more thing, are lone wolves 1 per elite slot, or can you take multiple that act separately ala 1-3 lictors/zoanthropes etc.

I am about 80% sure rockfist is in terminator armour, but i'd still check it if you get the chance.

They are definately only 1 per elite slot, but they are pretty awesome, similar to Dwarven troll slayers, give em the mark of wulfen and point them at something and watch them pull it apart.

Chimera_calvin wrote:Question - is the Thunderwolf cavalry still 3+ save?

Yes thunderwolf cavalry are a 3+ save, although they are T5 base, and can be given storm shields, so a battle cannon make not be as effective as you think depending on how they are kitted out. Also if your making TWC similar to Canis then you are going to have models on 60 mm bases, so a 5" blast template might hit two or three depending on your scatter.

Fair enough - although at T5 anything S7+ will wound on a 2. I still think that IG have the puppies number because if they do kit them with shields, the unit's an even bigger points sink and massed autocannon (which, lets face it, IG excel at) work just as well against the shields as they do wtih regular 3+ armour.

Hydras (or should it be Hydrae? ) all round!!

New stuff added to OP.

Not much info to get from the codex now.

Forget to get info on Arjak and his armour.

Slightly off topic here...

I saw some conversions in my NON GW FLGS of a selection of Space Wolf characters...

CONVERTED INTO CHARACTERS FROM ASTERIX!!!

Asterix + Power Armour is full of win.
Obelix in Terminator Armour.
Vitalstatistix in Power Armour on a shield + bearers, counting as a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf.

Heh heh heh... your country flag seems to have changed to a Union Jack, but with the French flag you were flying earlier that all makes sense. Provide us with pictures of said conversions, if you would.

I've already sorted out my work schedule for tomorrow so that it doesn't prevent me from getting in and photographing the SW sprue before it gets chopped up.

It changes from Union Jack to Italian all the time. Christ knows why.

I'll get some pics of the Asterix Marines when I go back to my FLGS.

About the Dex: I think we now have everything. But anyone who has any other credible info, post it and I'll add it in to the OP.

Random poster quoting the SW Codex wrote:As a psychic shooting attack, trace a stright line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24" away. This line may pass through terrain. Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test.(bgb p.8) If the models fails the test, it is removed from play. Monstrous creatures subtract 1 from thier dice roll due to their tremendous size and strength. A roll of a 6 is always a failure.

Seems credible -- big thing to note is that it only works on MCs, beasts, cavalry, bikes, and infantry. Completely ignores vehicles, too.

This means jetbikes (e.g., Necron Lords with destroyer body, Seer Councils, etc) and jump infantry (e.g., Crisis suits, many of the things you'd send to kill a Rune Priest anyway) aren't affected by it.

'Fexes still die horribly, but Tau and Necrons have a lot less to worry about than was originally rumored.

Of course, grain of salt applies.

EzeKK wrote:Lone Wolves are freakin insain. Also, to anyone that thinks this will be CRAZY OVERPOWER DUDE, try and build a good deathwing army. It's hard as HELL to include what you want when everything costs 250 points for the most part and that's not even meched up.

Try this disguisting combo for Lone Wolves:

Terminator Armor; Storm Shield; Chainfist.

HOLY S%*$! 2+ / 3+ FNP Eternal Warrior with 2 wounds and a Chainfist. For 85 points. Oh, don't forget hes got Saga they got Beastslayer top so uhh your MC's and Walkers and anything T5+ are screwed. Oh yeah, he can also board a LR if you have one handy.

In steleks words: "This is the Dreadnought you always wanted, but were afraid to ask Santa for."

So for 170 points for two? Yes I will take them! For more fun add Wolves to make sure that he will be able to avoid those pesky AP denying shots!

So, you'll take 2 models for the price of 10 Grey Huntes with meltaguns? Not saying Lone Wolves are bad or anything, but I wouldn't take 170pts worth of them...

Odin didn't complain when he was swallowed by the Fenris Wolf at Ragnarok (clearly the inspiration for the new "World Wolf" Space Wolf psychic power) and he knew that he would lose the battle ahead of time. You'd think 40K players could take a lesson from that and complain less.

Also, I'm already hearing a resurgence of really bad pronunciations of the name "Njal Stormcaller". The letter "j" in the name is pronounced like in the word "fjord". Fee-yord, Nee-yall. It's a Nordic name. Now please stop calling him En-jall or Ni-jall. Thank you from the gods of grammar and learning about other languages besides English.

BrassScorpion wrote:Odin didn't complain when he was swallowed by the Fenris Wolf at Ragnarok (clearly the inspiration for the new "World Wolf" Space Wolf psychic power) and he knew that he would lose the battle ahead of time. You'd think 40K players could take a lesson from that and complain less.

Also, I'm already hearing a resurgence of really bad pronunciations of the name "Njal Stormcaller". The letter "j" in the name is pronounced like in the word "fjord". Fee-yord, Nee-yall. It's a Nordic name. Now please stop calling him En-jall or Ni-jall. Thank you from the gods of grammar and learning about other languages besides English.

Brass Scorpion gets 50 points for Mythology Reference.

These quotes for Njal have been going on since 2nd Ed and I suppose won't change.

Has anyone else come up with some cool names or background for some Space Wolf successor chapters?

I only found one and they were disbanded due to some dodgy mutation:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_Brothers

BrassScorpion wrote:
Also, I'm already hearing a resurgence of really bad pronunciations of the name "Njal Stormcaller". The letter "j" in the name is pronounced like in the word "fjord". Fee-yord, Nee-yall. It's a Nordic name. Now please stop calling him En-jall or Ni-jall. Thank you from the gods of grammar and learning about other languages besides English.

DingDingDing

winnar!

same with Bjorn

its not B-Jorn its B-Yorn

And don't forget everyone's favorite weird scandavian singer - Bjork!

She's Icelandic.

Iceland has an incredibley rich historical connection with Vikings.

Icelandic, Scandavian, does it matter? She wore a freaking swan dress!

She's Icelandic.

Yes she is, though I'm not sure what that was meant to contribute.

Iceland was settled by Nordic peoples who migrated there. Most of what we know about Norse Mythology, the basis for the Space Wolves background by GW, comes from the Prose Edda, which was written by Snorri Sturluson in Iceland.

Lord of the Rings fans might also be interested to know that the names of most of the Dwarves in The Hobbit and the name Gandalf also come from The Prose Edda. It was one of many ancient sources used by Prof. Tolkien to write his Middle Earth novels.

BrassScorpion wrote:

She's Icelandic.

Yes she is, though I'm not sure what that was meant to contribute.

Iceland was settled by Nordic peoples who migrated there. Most of what we know about Norse Mythology, the basis for the Space Wolves background by GW, comes from the Prose Edda, which was written by Snorri Sturluson in Iceland.

Lord of the Rings fans might also be interested to know that the names of most of the Dwarves in The Hobbit and the name Gandalf also come from The Prose Edda. It was one of many ancient sources used by Prof. Tolkien to write his Middle Earth novels.

Another 50 points.

Have you got any good names that I could use for a Space Wolf successor chapter?

Have you got any good names that I could use for a Space Wolf successor chapter?

I'll take a quick look through my Prose Edda and Poetic Edda and see if there's anything worth mentioning to you, then PM you.

I actually built a Space Wolf army of my own back in 2nd edition 40K and the first thing I did when wanting words to write on the little text scroll areas on my Bjorn model and other models was to consult the source material, including the runic alphabet shown in my book on Viking history.

Since you seem genuinely interested, here's another tidbit of info. The name "Treebeard" comes from the Orkneyinga, the saga of the Vikings in the Orkney Islands. That's a good one to read too.

Thanks Brass Scorpion, much obliged.

I definitely recommend the Orkneyinga saga, I read it when I went to the Orkneys a couple of years ago.

I looked at the words Orkneyinga saga and at first I thought it was the Orky Ninja Saga.

Nurglitch wrote:It is kind of funny that Thunderwolves are better than Juggernauts.

It's even funnier that Rune Priests are better psykers than Tzeentch Sorcerers (bcuz tehy iz choas warbandz hurr!). And that CSM squads are more regimented and codex-compliant than Grey Hunters (bcuz tehy iz choas warbandz hurr!). And that Chaos Chosen have like way less options than Wolf Guard (bcuz tehy iz choas warbandz hurr!) but get infiltrate instead - because I don't know about you, but to me nothing screams "hardened Heresy-era veteran with 10,000 years of experience" than infiltrate and +1Ld (bcuz tehy iz choas warbandz hurr!).

But yeah, I guess the Chaos codex is pretty good too.

airmang wrote:

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:
Please let the first Legion Codex be for Thousand Sons. Its embarrassing that the best psykers in the fluff are the worst psykers in the game!

Who needs Legion Codexes? This is the BEST Chaos Codex ever!

Yeah, the only problem with using the SW codex for a counts-as CSM army is that it doesn't have any options daemonic gifts and mutations - and Chaos just isn't Chaos without a nice long list of gifts and mutations to customize your... oh wait, nevermind.

I guess it's no use to mention that the Chaos dex came out 2 years ago before they probably even started thinking about the SW codex and that the design direction has shifted pretty significantly since then....

Ozymandias wrote:I guess it's no use to mention that the Chaos dex came out 2 years ago before they probably even started thinking about the SW codex and that the design direction has shifted pretty significantly since then....

It will be sooo funny when they change their mind again right after all the Imperial releases and blandhammer the Necrons and Dark Eldar into the dirt.

lord_blackfang wrote:It will be sooo funny when they change their mind again right after all the Imperial releases and blandhammer the Necrons and Dark Eldar into the dirt.

Blandhammer... heh. That so coins the Dark Angels Codex.

Ozymandias wrote:I guess it's no use to mention that the Chaos dex came out 2 years ago before they probably even started thinking about the SW codex and that the design direction has shifted pretty significantly since then....

Around here, thoughts like that are about as useful as promoting the freedom of the press to the Inquistorial conventions of W40k.

I think people are going to have a change of heart about that after six months of playing Space Wolves. I don't think the design direction has shifted so much as vibrated. Take the transport restrictions on vehicles, for example. Or the pricing and rules of Lightening Claws (okay, 'Wolf Claws'). Or the two Independent Characters per HQ slot thing.

dietrich wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:I guess it's no use to mention that the Chaos dex came out 2 years ago before they probably even started thinking about the SW codex and that the design direction has shifted pretty significantly since then....

Around here, thoughts like that are about as useful as promoting the freedom of the press to the Inquistorial conventions of W40k.

Hey man, I play Dark Angels.

I just get tired of hearing how the Chaos dex is worse than the SM dex or now the SW dex when that comparison is a little unfair. If the Chaos dex were written tomorrow I bet you'd see a style very similar to what we've seen since 5th was released.

Ozymandias wrote:
I just get tired of hearing how the Chaos dex is worse than the SM dex or now the SW dex when that comparison is a little unfair. If the Chaos dex were written tomorrow I bet you'd see a style very similar to what we've seen since 5th was released.

So, if GW organized their codex development better, and tied it into rules revision... we wouldn't have this problem? I mean, when confronted with a statement that 'Blah sucks.' I usually don't consider 'Yeah, but blah is out of date too!' as a very convincing counter argument. This trickle development (and release, really) nonsense just is hell to a game like this.

Oh well, at least they haven't decided to do an 'End Days' edition, and then start over again. (Unless they have. Have they?)

So does anyone here actually have the codex?

When we're talking about a book that was written for a completely different edition I think the counter argument is valid. When people say that Tau suck it's perfectly acceptable to mention that Tau was written with a different ruleset and metagame in mind. And in 4th ed they were pretty good.

kitsunez wrote:So does anyone here actually have the codex?

Yes.

ShumaGorath wrote:

kitsunez wrote:So does anyone here actually have the codex?

Yes.

do you have the codex?

kitsunez wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

kitsunez wrote:So does anyone here actually have the codex?

Yes.

do you have the codex?

Of course not, it hasn't released yet. It would not be the act of a gentleman such as myself to acquire such a thing.

Ozymandias wrote:I guess it's no use to mention that the Chaos dex came out 2 years ago before they probably even started thinking about the SW codex and that the design direction has shifted pretty significantly since then....

No, because by the time Chaos get redone there's a good chance the design direction will have come full circle and they'll be back into blandification mode.

We all know the story. In the waning days of 4th edition the designers had finally come to the conclusion that they couldn't balance their rules for crap. Their solution? Write less rules of course! The idea was that a simple game is by default a balanced game (take chess for example) - so if everyone has the same rules then everything will be balanced. If the fewer options and special rules we have, the greater the potential for balance, then a concerted scaling back of options should inevitably lead to balance spontaneously breaking out eventually (they hoped). Behold - Codex: Dark Angels! How could anything this bland and uniform and lacking in options, be anything but balanced? "Here's how!" exclaimed Codex: Chaos Space Marines with a resounding Fzorgle! Oops - back to the drawing board!

Which leads us to the imminent Codex: Space Wolves, chock full of options and special rules - which is great - but you know sooner or later if they stay on this present course they're going to make a codex with an option or special rule that breaks the game. Then of course they will come to the same conclusion they did at the end of 4th edition and begin reblandification with a vengeance. This inevitably will happen around the time Dark Angels come up for revision.

Ozymandias wrote:When we're talking about a book that was written for a completely different edition I think the counter argument is valid. When people say that Tau suck it's perfectly acceptable to mention that Tau was written with a different ruleset and metagame in mind. And in 4th ed they were pretty good.

Perhaps, but even if the point is granted, it doesn't much help current C:SM players, does it?

But heck, I play Necrons, so what do I know. We're used to making do.

I'm glad this thread is about how much the chaos codex sucks, and not about the space wolf codex.

As for fifth edition balancing, all armies with post fifth edition codexes (Counting orks and daemons) stack up fairly well against one another. If they manage to revise the necrons and tyranids in the same power level then the majority of armies will be in play balance with one another. It's too late to start scaling back now, all we can really hope for is a continued slide into the slightly better stats and larger armies of fifth edition. This codex slides into that niche well, much better than the codex marine 'dex.

Lowinor wrote:

Random poster quoting the SW Codex wrote:As a psychic shooting attack, trace a stright line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24" away. This line may pass through terrain. Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test.(bgb p.8) If the models fails the test, it is removed from play. Monstrous creatures subtract 1 from thier dice roll due to their tremendous size and strength. A roll of a 6 is always a failure.

Seems credible -- big thing to note is that it only works on MCs, beasts, cavalry, bikes, and infantry. Completely ignores vehicles, too.

This means jetbikes (e.g., Necron Lords with destroyer body, Seer Councils, etc) and jump infantry (e.g., Crisis suits, many of the things you'd send to kill a Rune Priest anyway) aren't affected by it.

'Fexes still die horribly, but Tau and Necrons have a lot less to worry about than was originally rumored.

Of course, grain of salt applies.

Jet bikers, tanks skimmers etc are all unaffected my JoWW but really i'd say jump infantry would be affected as normal. It says "infantry" to which jump infantry could be a part of. Is this infantry an umbrella term, or is it directly indicating only units that receive the infantry tag in it's unit type.

It will most likely have to be errataed(sp?)/ FAQ'd to give a definitive answer.

From what I gather fluff wise its the world splitting open and swallowing the targets, so jump infantry and jetbikes and whatnot just laugh at it.

but footslogging infantry, monstrous creatures, bikes, cavalry, and beasts are all susceptible to fall in and die.

The Space Wolf codex just looks like a good solid codex period much like the Imperial Guard and Space Marine before it.

Its not super sayan oMG WTFBBQ broken its just good and has variety.

I have massive Chaos Marine and Dark Angel model collections, so these conversations that serve as constant reminders of what we could have had for those Codex books if they had only been designed a year or two later can get a bit distressing. However, I'll try and follow the example of the Odin and the rest of the Aesir and trudge off to Ragnarok without complaining even though the outcome is predetermined.

On the hobby front I have to say that the new Space Wolf Codex is a fun and exciting book just as everything since Codex Chaos Marines has been. The new models look terrific too. If I wasn't working on so many other hobby projects, I'd add some units to my old Space Wolf army for some hobby fun. I might buy the Codex just for the fun of reading it.

BrassScorpion wrote:I have massive Chaos Marine and Dark Angel model collections, so these conversations that serve as constant reminders of what we could have had for those Codex books if they had only been designed a year or two later can get a bit distressing. However, I'll try and follow the example of the Odin and the rest of the Aesir and trudge off to Ragnarok without complaining even though the outcome is predetermined.

On the hobby front I have to say that the new Space Wolf Codex is a fun and exciting book just as everything since Codex Chaos Marines has been. The new models look terrific too. If I wasn't working on so many other hobby projects, I'd add some units to my old Space Wolf army for some hobby fun. I might buy the Codex just for the fun of reading it.

Why not use an older edition of the Dark Angels/Chaos codex... although that would be illegal in a tournament, i guess.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Then of course they will come to the same conclusion they did at the end of 4th edition and begin reblandification with a vengeance. This inevitably will happen around the time Dark Angels come up for revision.

As usual I disagree, but this made me laugh.

Why not use an older edition of the Dark Angels/Chaos codex... although that would be illegal in a tournament, i guess.

I don't play tournaments, so that's not really an issue, but to keep things simple and as compatible as possible with the latest rules and other Codex books, when I do play occasionally, I like to use the most current book, even if it isn't the most fun or colorful.

The models are the real constant for me. For example, I've been collecting Chaos for 20 years and been through every version of the game with them. The models remain cool no matter what they do to the rules.

I have a couple queries:
-So Wolf Priests are now basically Chaplains, instead of Chaplain/Apothecaries? If so, that really sucks, because I would always take my Wolf Priest with healing balms
-Do Grey Hunters still have True Grit, or some equivalent?
-Can Iron Priests still take Thrall Bodyguards?

I also have a general question - does the Dreadnought close combat weapon count as just that - a close combat weapon? Or is it a power weapon/fist?

A dread CCW is it's own beast. It doubles strength, goes at initiative, and ignores armor saves.

BrassScorpion wrote:Odin didn't complain when he was swallowed by the Fenris Wolf at Ragnarok (clearly the inspiration for the new "World Wolf" Space Wolf psychic power) and he knew that he would lose the battle ahead of time. You'd think 40K players could take a lesson from that and complain less.

Also, I'm already hearing a resurgence of really bad pronunciations of the name "Njal Stormcaller". The letter "j" in the name is pronounced like in the word "fjord". Fee-yord, Nee-yall. It's a Nordic name. Now please stop calling him En-jall or Ni-jall. Thank you from the gods of grammar and learning about other languages besides English.

I hate it when people butcher names like that! For so long, I've had to deal with people saying Bee-jorn and stuff like that.


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Andilus Greatsword wrote:I have a couple queries:
-So Wolf Priests are now basically Chaplains, instead of Chaplain/Apothecaries? If so, that really sucks, because I would always take my Wolf Priest with healing balms
-Do Grey Hunters still have True Grit, or some equivalent?
-Can Iron Priests still take Thrall Bodyguards?

I also have a general question - does the Dreadnought close combat weapon count as just that - a close combat weapon? Or is it a power weapon/fist?

-They do not have true grit, but they do have bolt pistols, bolters, and close combat weapons, so there's not much of a need.
-Yes, they can.

k, thanks, especially for that info on the Dreadnought, I've been really boggled about that. Does it say that in Codex Space Marines, because I can't ever recall seeing it.

Ozymandias wrote:I guess it's no use to mention that the Chaos dex came out 2 years ago before they probably even started thinking about the SW codex and that the design direction has shifted pretty significantly since then....

That does not make it suck less...


Abadababadooon has it right. Space wolves are the chaos codex of choice now.

One question that has probably already been covered:

Are space wolf scouts still able to have a wolf guard attached and use their 'operate behind enemy lines' ability?

Andilus Greatsword wrote:k, thanks, especially for that info on the Dreadnought, I've been really boggled about that. Does it say that in Codex Space Marines, because I can't ever recall seeing it.

Considering EVERY OTHER rule in the SM codex say "See WH40K RB for rules" I would not count on it.

Here's the thing about the Chaos Codex. Some people like it and some don't. Its value is in the eye of the beholder. If you think its sucks, it's because of you rather than some property of the Codex.

I predict that something similar will happen with the Space Wolves codex: some people will like it, and others will hate it.

Yeah, it's not a rule specific to SM Dreads, it's common to all Dreads so it'll be in the main book.

Hehe. This is easily the most anticipated codex I've seen come out in my lifetime, which doesn't surprise me since they were my first army back in 2nd.

In about 90 min I'll put up a couple nice high resolution photos of the new sprues. There's a single photo of both on the GW website but it's of questionable quality, and you can't zoom in like you can with the Dakka Gallery.

Do wolf guard terminators have terminator armor or runic terminator armor?

Pretty sure Runic Terminator Armour is exclusive to Rune Priests and Njal. Possibly just Njal.

Ozymandias wrote:Yeah, it's not a rule specific to SM Dreads, it's common to all Dreads so it'll be in the main book.

k, I've looked it up and haven't been able to find it, thanks for the help.

Is their any saying thing against me giving one my Grey Hunters The Wolf Totem, Power Fist and the Plasma Pistol. I know that makes one model a Point sink that could be taken out easy, but the fig is cool.

Nurglitch wrote:

The Fenrisian Wolves and the Thunderwolf Cavalry don't really make any sense, but at least they aren't firing them out of cannons! Wolf cannon, as it were.

Still, thank God we now have a codex that can represent all the diverse Space Wolf armies except the 13th Company!

I think the idea behind Canis was to "unlock" the 13th company build, or at least the spirit of it. All the elements, Mark of the Wulfen, Fenrisian hound packs and berserk characters are represented. The only thing missing is Wulfen, which I personally just intend to model as the thunderwolf Cavalry.

Some pieces are missing from the sprues (I was about two minutes too late!), but here are said parts assembled.


Not great quality photos, but better than the GW website regardless. Remember you can zoom in on the Dakka Gallery if there's something wrong with your eyes, but I had to take the pics quickly so the boys could get back to assembling them, and the girlfriend messed up the camera settings...
There are just over 40 heads.


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Definitely can't have Wolf Guard with Scouts, unfortunately. Can have one with Mark of Wulfen, though.

That's good, thanks for the photo's and effort.

Cheers about the wolfguard not being able to be included with the scouts. I like it.

This codex has got me interested in 40k again.

I am almost tempted to throw out all my current troops... That model looks so wolfy. I need it!

This has probably already been discussed - but is running Ragnar with BC's a silly idea now? Or does the d3 add to the blood claws +2?

Also for clarification (mine that is), can BCs shoot within 6" if an IC is attached to the squad rather than a WG?

Grr, I already have my 6 troop choices filled, but I'm very tempted to buy the Space Wolves conversion kit...

Probably should hold off, since I want my $$$ to last.

anyone have a tally on the points cost for wargear they could discuss with me over PM?

Defiler wrote:
The only thing missing is Wulfen, which I personally just intend to model as the thunderwolf Cavalry.

Anyone else picturing this as space wolves riding piggy back style on wulfen?

Please we don't need any more homo-erotic 40k imagery than there already is.

So 2 Thunderhammers per box set? All the bits on that kit make me keen to buy it simply for the conversions etc that you'd be able to do more easily with everything plastic.

BeefyG wrote:Please we don't need any more homo-erotic 40k imagery than there already is.

So 2 Thunderhammers per box set? All the bits on that kit make me keen to buy it simply for the conversions etc that you'd be able to do more easily with everything plastic.

Two Thunderhammers Think of that Wolf Guard

However now I can build my Space Wolf Biker Gang
-Wolf Guards on Bikes with Thunder Hammers and Biker Chains [Frost Blades]

I rescind what I formerly said about Wolf Guard in Scout packs. You most certainly can attach Wolf Guard to anything - pretty much as before, you buy a pack and can split it up for pack leaders.


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Example Silly Army List

Canis Wolfborn

15 Wolves
-Cyberwolf

15 Wolves
-Cyberwolf

15 Wolves

15 Wolves

15 Wolves

15 Wolves

5 Thunderwolf Cavalry
-Power Fist

5 Thunderwolf Cavalry
-Power Fist

5 Thunderwolf Cavalry
-Power Fist

1746pts

It can't win 2 out of 3 missions but by golly it'll kick ass in the 3rd one.

The Hunter saga only applies to the character himself. Sort of weird, but at least that single character could be on a Thunderwolf with 6" move, fleet then a 12" charge.

Nurglitch wrote:Here's the thing about the Chaos Codex. Some people like it and some don't. Its value is in the eye of the beholder. If you think its sucks, it's because of you rather than some property of the Codex.

Yes, Abadabadoobaddon possesses the property of not liking bland uninspired crap, and thus does not like the Chaos Codex. This is a property of Abadabadoobaddon and not some property of the Codex.

I have a simple question concerning counter-attack.

In the 5th edition rules a group that is assaulted "piles in" to get as many models as possible into the fight.

How is counter-attack differant than this if it doesn't add an extra attack as if they charged?

Ninthplain

Ninthplain wrote:I have a simple question concerning counter-attack.

In the 5th edition rules a group that is assaulted "piles in" to get as many models as possible into the fight.

How is counter-attack differant than this if it doesn't add an extra attack as if they charged?

Ninthplain

it does, but Blood Claws only get +1, not +2

Arctik_Firangi wrote:
Some pieces are missing from the sprues (I was about two minutes too late!), but here are said parts assembled.


Not great quality photos, but better than the GW website regardless. Remember you can zoom in on the Dakka Gallery if there's something wrong with your eyes, but I had to take the pics quickly so the boys could get back to assembling them, and the girlfriend messed up the camera settings...
There are just over 40 heads.

So there ARE good looking heads on that sprue...?

Why oh why did GW paint and photograph all the goofy/down syndrome looking ones? Also, it appears that the legs are the same scale as the current marines, contrary to the original thought after viewing the 1st grey hunter and blood claw, who appear to be standing up a little straighter. Oh happy day!

Of course, I just want to play mechanized wolfies, which is just like any other mechanized marine army, so what's the draw.... :(

Ninthplain wrote:I have a simple question concerning counter-attack.

In the 5th edition rules a group that is assaulted "piles in" to get as many models as possible into the fight.

How is counter-attack differant than this if it doesn't add an extra attack as if they charged?

Ninthplain

Also, Counter-Attack requires a leadership test now to get the bonus.

Looking at some of those heads I have to ask, were the Space Wolves originally a hair band?

I hope the 8 points for the Wolves (with S and T 4 btw) are a sign for cheaper hormagaunts in the next tyranid codex.

Had a look at it today, nice psychic powers, but pretty expensive.

Those cheap meltas are bugging me, though. Doesn't GW realize anyone is using meltas for anti tank? Why is the lascannon still that expensive and meltas are dirt cheap?

Greets
Schepp himself

Ninthplain wrote:I have a simple question concerning counter-attack.

In the 5th edition rules a group that is assaulted "piles in" to get as many models as possible into the fight.

How is counter-attack differant than this if it doesn't add an extra attack as if they charged?

Ninthplain

If the unit passes a leadership test when it is charged, they get a +1A bonus.

Napalm wrote:Looking at some of those heads I have to ask, were the Space Wolves originally a hair band?

Yup, under the Primarch Dee Snider.

nice psychic powers though i think they may be nerfed in future. I mean, the one regarding the initiative test would murder tyranids, which is obviously a little unfair if they can take out their large units so easily. Still i bet eldar players would largely laugh at it (in regards to their elites having sweet initiative).

I'm not a massive space wolf fan (the colours put me off) but they certainly have character!

Actually, in regards to Tyranids being nerfed by MAW, I have just thought of an easy way to destroy the Rune Priest before he can get near the Monsterous Creatures. Simply use an infiltrating Broodlord and a large unit of Genestealers to attack the Rune Priest. The MAW is practically useless against this unit, since they have high initiative, and the Broodlord could tear the Rune Priest to shreds before he has a chance to strike back. Of course, there's always the issue of them getting shot up before they reach the Rune Priest, but I think this is a good way to keep Tyranids competitive vs SW.

It say "Any Model"
Njal is going to leading rom the front
"
No Meat Shields"

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Actually, in regards to Tyranids being nerfed by MAW, I have just thought of an easy way to destroy the Rune Priest before he can get near the Monsterous Creatures. Simply use an infiltrating Broodlord and a large unit of Genestealers to attack the Rune Priest. The MAW is practically useless against this unit, since they have high initiative, and the Broodlord could tear the Rune Priest to shreds before he has a chance to strike back. Of course, there's always the issue of them getting shot up before they reach the Rune Priest, but I think this is a good way to keep Tyranids competitive vs SW.

Unless, you know, the Rune Priest is 13" or more from a table edge, in a drop pod, or. . . naaa - I am just going to stop.

As for the "keep Tyranids competative" bit. . .

Anpu42 wrote:

BeefyG wrote:Please we don't need any more homo-erotic 40k imagery than there already is.

So 2 Thunderhammers per box set? All the bits on that kit make me keen to buy it simply for the conversions etc that you'd be able to do more easily with everything plastic.

Two Thunderhammers Think of that Wolf Guard

However now I can build my Space Wolf Biker Gang
-Wolf Guards on Bikes with Thunder Hammers and Biker Chains [Frost Blades]

I'm pretty sure it's just one Thunderhammer on there. It looks like the sprues are being photographed once from each side. (So 2 sprues, 4 photos.)

That is correct, they are showing you both sides.

I've held the sprues at my local GW store and pictures don't do them justice. They really out-did themselves with the amount of fun detail on these new plastics.

I'm sorry if this has been addressed, but I've sifted through the seven pages here and some of the other threads covering the book and can't find an answer.

When will the book be released? I'd check GW's site, but alas, the firewall not alloweth...

Release date October 3.

Schepp himself wrote:Those cheap meltas are bugging me, though. Doesn't GW realize anyone is using meltas for anti tank? Why is the lascannon still that expensive and meltas are dirt cheap?

Unfortunately, SW don't have access to the number and/or quality (Vulkan for the TL!) of Multi-meltas that Codex Marines do. I think the GH with cheap dual-melta may have to fill some of that role. As someone who bought several attack bikes, and wolfed them up, I'm really a sad puppy right now.

I don't know why lascannons are still so expensive. That no one is taking them in any number should be a hint.

TY BrassScorpion... I've been sitting on a FLGS gift certificate that I think I'll be redeeming soon.

Swiftclaws can take Attack Bikes, with Multi-Meltas unless the original post is not wholly accurate.

The dual-melta Grey Hunters may not happen: you can't take a Wolfguard and put them in a Rhino if you go for the second Melta Gun. I think that's why it's 0pts, because you pay for it in other ways.

Can I get an exact wording on the wolf gaurd splitting off men to be squad leaders, as well as the terminator heavy weapons business?
I.E. can we set up a 10 man squad, some as termies, some as squad leaders (a biker, jumper, and some regular), in order to get the second termie heavy weapon, then peel off all the squad leaders to their appropriate teams leaving like 6 or 7 termies with 2 AC's to put with a HQ in a crusader?

Also, there has been some mention of Grimnar making all Wolf Gaurd into troops, while Regular Wolf Lord making 1 WG squad troops, like ork warboss. Can I get a yes or no to both of these facts?

Got a clear up on Lukas.

Whenever he is killed, roll a D6. If the Space Wolf player rolls higher, ALL models in base to base with Lukas are removed from play.

Thus shoot him in the face, and as long as you are not in HTH, you're safe. It says NOTHING about it having to affect the model that landed the killing blow.

Nurglitch wrote:Swiftclaws can take Attack Bikes, with Multi-Meltas unless the original post is not wholly accurate.

The dual-melta Grey Hunters may not happen: you can't take a Wolfguard and put them in a Rhino if you go for the second Melta Gun. I think that's why it's 0pts, because you pay for it in other ways.

But, Swiftclaws are only BS3, and I want them in melee with troops, not tank hunting. It's an option, but I don't think it's a great one.

As I said in a previous post, you can add a lot of bling to GH squads (WG with a powerfist and combiweapon, special weapon, wolf totem, powerfist or powerweapon, plasma pistol, and Mark of the Wulfen). That adds roughly 80-100 pts to the squads (depending on gear). So, for the price of two blinged-up GH squads, you can basically take three 10-man with 2 specials in a rhino. Now, I don't know if one is soundly better than the other, but there's an option to field lots of relatively cheap infantry and jump infantry. My guess is that I'll come down somewhere in between. I'm think 10 GH with two specials, Mark of the Wulfen, and maybe the Totem is a pretty well-rounded yet economical option.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Got a clear up on Lukas.

Whenever he is killed, roll a D6. If the Space Wolf player rolls higher, ALL models in base to base with Lukas are removed from play.

Thus shoot him in the face, and as long as you are not in HTH, you're safe. It says NOTHING about it having to affect the model that landed the killing blow.

Good to hear. At least it isn't a guaranteed removal in CC either, which was worrying me.

Also, those new sprues look really nice, even if I'm not a Space Wolves fan myself.

I know my photos don't do the sprues justice. The two sprues I photographed (yes, front and back) contained parts for 5 models, so you do indeed get two thunder hammers per box.

To re-clear what MDG said, you don't have to roll higher for Lukas' stasis bomb - equal is enough.

Another neat thing is Wolf Guard terminators can take 2 assault cannons in a squad, but overall they're not the shootiest army. Ther is an option to take Wolf Guard as troops (up to 3 squads IIRC), making them easily the most elite army book out there.

dietrich wrote:

As I said in a previous post, you can add a lot of bling to GH squads (WG with a powerfist and combiweapon, special weapon, wolf totem, powerfist or powerweapon, plasma pistol, and Mark of the Wulfen). That adds roughly 80-100 pts to the squads (depending on gear). So, for the price of two blinged-up GH squads, you can basically take three 10-man with 2 specials in a rhino. Now, I don't know if one is soundly better than the other, but there's an option to field lots of relatively cheap infantry and jump infantry. My guess is that I'll come down somewhere in between. I'm think 10 GH with two specials, Mark of the Wulfen, and maybe the Totem is a pretty well-rounded yet economical option.

I'm sorry to single you out, but I keep seeing posts about the Mark Of The Wulfen. It replaces your attack characteristic with 2-7, and also can't be used in conjunction with any special weapon. Wolf claws, frost blade, power fist, runic weapon, anything.

So why do people keep posting "I'm going to slap the mark on so and so..."? Would you rather your SC have like 6 frost blade attacks on the charge, or something like 3-8 rending, strength 4 ones on the charge? I only see it being semi worthwhile versus soft, armorless opponents and even then there is something to be said about ignoring armor saves, even 5+ ones.

Defiler wrote:

dietrich wrote:

As I said in a previous post, you can add a lot of bling to GH squads (WG with a powerfist and combiweapon, special weapon, wolf totem, powerfist or powerweapon, plasma pistol, and Mark of the Wulfen). That adds roughly 80-100 pts to the squads (depending on gear). So, for the price of two blinged-up GH squads, you can basically take three 10-man with 2 specials in a rhino. Now, I don't know if one is soundly better than the other, but there's an option to field lots of relatively cheap infantry and jump infantry. My guess is that I'll come down somewhere in between. I'm think 10 GH with two specials, Mark of the Wulfen, and maybe the Totem is a pretty well-rounded yet economical option.

I'm sorry to single you out, but I keep seeing posts about the Mark Of The Wulfen. It replaces your attack characteristic with 2-7, and also can't be used in conjunction with any special weapon. Wolf claws, frost blade, power fist, runic weapon, anything.

So why do people keep posting "I'm going to slap the mark on so and so..."? Would you rather your SC have like 6 frost blade attacks on the charge, or something like 3-8 rending, strength 4 ones on the charge? I only see it being semi worthwhile versus soft, armorless opponents and even then there is something to be said about ignoring armor saves, even 5+ ones.

Well it's generally not that good on special characters because it does effect their loadout, although lone wolves with the mark can be brutual anti infantry. Also you can put the mark on a grey hunter or a blood claw in the squad, so you can basically have hidden attacks inside the squad, and being rending they aren't going to be all that fun.

Winter wrote:

Well it's generally not that good on special characters because it does effect their loadout, although lone wolves with the mark can be brutual anti infantry. Also you can put the mark on a grey hunter or a blood claw in the squad, so you can basically have hidden attacks inside the squad, and being rending they aren't going to be all that fun.

I see your point then. I hadn't considered it being useful on a single "upgrade" model in a unit. I can see it being extremely useful on lesser models, but It was starting to bother me that I've seen multiple posts about it being used on character.

I personally wish it simply cost as much as it did in the 13th company list, and gave +d3 attacks. The codex seems to be essentially telling you not to use it with models that already have 4 or more attacks.

Defiler wrote:

Winter wrote:

Well it's generally not that good on special characters because it does effect their loadout, although lone wolves with the mark can be brutual anti infantry. Also you can put the mark on a grey hunter or a blood claw in the squad, so you can basically have hidden attacks inside the squad, and being rending they aren't going to be all that fun.

I see your point then. I hadn't considered it being useful on a single "upgrade" model in a unit. I can see it being extremely useful on lesser models, but It was starting to bother me that I've seen multiple posts about it being used on character.

I personally wish it simply cost as much as it did in the 13th company list, and gave +d3 attacks. The codex seems to be essentially telling you not to use it with models that already have 4 or more attacks.

Well most models that have 4 or more attacks are generally HQ choices like Wolf Lords or Rune Priests. It would be strange, fluff wise, for any of these guys to have Mark of the Wulfen - as overcoming this primal instinct is something that the SW need to sort out when they are younger.

Mmm delicious wolfy chalice

So... how expensive are wolfguard?

I don't believe it violates forum rules to say, "a wolf guard costs the same as an elite choice inquisitor" or "their upgrades cost similar to the upgrades in the sm dex". Are TH, claws, etc they same cost? Or cheaper?

I'm told a basic WG in termie armor (with PW and combi-bolter), costs the same as a sternguard with combi weapon. Are they really that cheap?

Also, does Grimnar make the guard "count as" troops, or can they be taken as troops? Basically, can I take 6 scoring WG, or 3?

ok now I have a question.

It says that you can take two HQs to one slot and they have to be equipped differently.

Now does this mean they have to be equipped differently from the HQ they share the slot with or all HQs

Budzerker wrote:
Also, does Grimnar make the guard "count as" troops, or can they be taken as troops? Basically, can I take 6 scoring WG, or 3?

I am wondering this myself. If they must be taken as troop choices, then I don't think I will field Grimnar at all. If they fill up an elite slot however, I will be very tempted to run 2 termie squads, one with logan attached.

WG can be troops if you take Logan. Meaning you could have 9 units of wolf guard if you wanted to.

Edit:

Basic wolfguard cost as much as a chosen from the chaos codex. And WG w/terminator armor are 3 points more than a chaos terminator.

Hulksmash wrote:WG can be troops if you take Logan. Meaning you could have 9 units of wolf guard if you wanted to.

Edit:

Basic wolfguard cost as much as a chosen from the chaos codex. And WG w/terminator armor are 3 points more than a chaos terminator.

But surely there is a rule that says no more than 20 wolf guard per army? Or has that all gone out the door?

Out the door, which makes sense. You gotta think someone like Logan Grimnar would have a company made up of the best of the best!

I think it's sad that my Khornate Marine list fits better with the Space Wolf codex than with the actual Chaos codex.

The actual codex isn't that expensive so I might as well just pick it up to see if I can make a nice Khorne list out of it.

What is a frost axe?

Hulksmash wrote:Basic wolfguard cost as much as a chosen from the chaos codex. And WG w/terminator armor are 3 points more than a chaos terminator.

Awesome, thanks!

How about the wargear? Same as SM dex? Cheaper? More expensive? Just trying to get a feel for these guys.

ph34r wrote:What is a frost axe?

It's a Frost Blade, which is a Power Weapon that adds +1 to its user's Strength.

MinMax wrote:

ph34r wrote:What is a frost axe?

It's a Frost Blade, which is a Power Weapon that adds +1 to its user's Strength.

Ah, was confused because the summary post listed Frost Blade and Frost Axe as separate which made me think that they might have different rules.

Wolfguard wargear is 5 points cheaper than the SM codex mostly. Cept for the claws which cost the same amount as the SM codex ones. In terminator armor you subtract the the new weapons cost from either the power weapon or stormbolter depending on which your replacing.

Hulksmash wrote:Cept for the claws which cost the same amount as the SM codex ones. In terminator armor you subtract the the new weapons cost from either the power weapon or stormbolter depending on which your replacing.

Hmmm, slightly confusing. Taking the point costs in the sm dex for wargear on say, a captain. The claw costs the same as a power weapon, soo... a single claw would be free? Maybe you could just pm me to avoid further confusion? Would be appreciated...

It wouldn't be free. remember the power weapon costs 5 less points. So it would be 5pts for a "wolf claw" to replace the power weapon.

I've already mentioned the points costs of Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Wolf Guard earlier in this thread. 4th page. If they've been modded out, I'm not going to mention them again.

The minimum number of Wolf Guard you can have is 3 (as in you need to use an Elites slot to buy a unit to have any), and that members of that squad can be reassigned to other packs freely.

The wargear is surprisingly cheap, I have to say. To clarify Hulksmash's post, Terminator armour is bought with a Storm Bolter and Power Weapon, either of which can be upgraded. Obviously replacing the Storm Bolter with a Wolf Claw is more expensive than replacing the Power Weapon.

Can Bjorn take a pod? Seems pretty worthless at that point cost otherwise...

Wow loads of posts to go through.

First off...

Mark of the wulfen is great on single attack models but utterly useless on everything else.

Second...

I'm not putting the points up because it ain't in keeping with board rules. I hate being cryptic with posts too, because at the end of the day that's as bad as adding the points. Btw, I have the points costs for all the units and HQs but not all the upgrades. I cannot answer the immense amount of pm's I'm getting ATM as I'm busy moving house. If you guys can wait til Saturday i'll answer all enquiries then.

With the little spare time I've had, I've been reading the book and made a couple of army lists. I have come to the conclusion...

Space Wolves are to 40K what Daemons are to fantasy.

They are broken. They have two weakness' and even then they have a cheap unit that can deal with this...

Hordes and Tanks.

SW have only two units that can take out these types of army. BC can put the hurt on hordes on the charge turn, but can't take the immense amount of hits coming back. 30 Orks can still take a charge from 15 BC and be able to have enough Ork left to cause significant DMG back to force a morale check.
The answer here is Long Fangs. Splitting fire is too good in this game. Arm your fangs with 3 HB and 2 ML and go to town. They can take out a fair amount of infantry and can put the hurt on any vehicle upto a predator from the front. And if you need a horde busting boost, draw bead with all your weapons and blow up those footsloggers til kingdom come.

I know most people won't agree with me in my as broken as Daemons statement, but we tried them against a lot of armies and SW only had trouble against Orks, with slight problems against Mechdar and strangely Mech Tau. But Mech Tau were then countered by taking drop pod assault lists and all was good with the world.
Oh SW vs SW is fun. An absolute blood bath. You guys should try it.
A quick question...
Does anyone have any objections to me writing an article for SW tactica? I think I got it down with how they work now.

I'll completely disagree with your statement about them being broken but feel free to write up a tactica for all of us with your thoughts. Even if I don't agree it doesn't mean it won't raise some thinking and/or talking points.

People posted points costs about the IG book and nothing bad happened, just so you know.

radiohazard,

what kind of list was the one you were running for most of these games? ie, what was the backbone of your list(s) and what new units performed significantly well?

Could you also say how the new dex performs tactically vs the old dex? Your suggested idea of SW Tactica sounds great.

I don't play tournaments, but it's never fun to buy and run something that performs dismally.

Thanks

Thousand Sons vs. Space Wolves for the win. I find it hilarious that their arch enemy should actually be a good counter. There is nothing Thousand Sons like more than elite power armor armies.

You could just PM me for point values. Just don't expect me to spend ten minutes of my day filling out your wishlist. Grey Hunters get Meltaguns for 5 points though, and a second one free if they have 10 models.

Here's another fun list:

Wolf Priest 135
Saga of The Warrior Born

15 Blood Claws 240
Power Weapon

6 Grey Hunters 110
Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen
Razorback, Linked Assault Cannons 75

6 Grey Hunters 110
Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen
Razorback, Linked Assault Cannons 75

10 Grey Hunters 170
2 Meltaguns, Mark of the Wulfen
Drop Pod 35

5 Wolf Guard 220
Terminator Armour, 1x Thunder Hammer, 2x Wolf Claws, 1x Assault Cannon

Iron Priest 65
Saga of the Iron Wolf
+ Cyberwolf 15

Land Raider Redeemer 250

Land Raider Crusader 250

1750


The sagas aren't really all that great, which is the biggest disappointment overall...

Iron Priest,

We (my friends and I) tested everything in the book.
Out of my group of five players, four of us are tournament veterans, so we are very thorough in the ol' testing department.

The backbone of our lists (which are OTT tourney lists) were:

Tooled up Grey Hunters with 2 Melta Guns, 1 Wulfen and 1 Power Fist in a Rhino. We agree with most of the tinternet, this config is the best.

Long Fangs with 3 HB and 2 ML or 5 ML are uber.

Thunderwolves are freekin crazy powerful, but are a big points sink.


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I'll have more up in the tactica.

So a 1 attack powerfist is in the best config for a full grey hunter squad? Definitely not a direction i'm taking but I'm looking forward to the tactica.

Powerfists aren't worth it on Marine Sergeants with 2 attacks. Why would they be worth it on Grey Hunters with 1 attack?

Grey Hunters are worse than Tactical Marines, unless you really like Razorbacks. Skyclaw Packs are worse than Assault Marines, period.

I'll agree with the powerfist comment but..

How are GH worse than tactical marines? And how is a squad that does more for cheaper worse than assault marines? Just curious as to your reasoning behind it.

Fatman wrote:Thousand Sons vs. Space Wolves for the win. I find it hilarious that their arch enemy should actually be a good counter. There is nothing Thousand Sons like more than elite power armor armies.

I have two boxes of Thousand Sons (one painted in pre-heresy red, the other still in the box) and a plan to buy some space wolves for exactly that reason. Well, that and they're some of the few armies in 40k that I actually enjoy the fluff for. Figure it could be fun to have two elite skirmish-sized forces that are arch enemies if anyone wants to play a short game.

I think you're mixing up Grey Hunters with Blood Claws. Grey Hunters have the same statline as a Tactical Marine, but have extra special rules (Counter Attack, Acute Senses, etc).

*EDIT*

This is in response to Fetterkey's comment.

Hulksmash wrote:How are GH worse than tactical marines?

Combat Tactics and Combat Squads > Counterattack, ubergrit, and Acute Senses. Further, Tactical Marines can take a heavy weapon, can take Sergeants without using an Elites slot, and can take a special weapon, a heavy weapon, and a Sergeant. Grey Hunters have to pick two out of three, though they get a second special weapon instead of a heavy weapon. To compensate for their superiority, Tactical Marines cost 16 points each instead of 15. This higher cost is completely justified.

Hulksmash wrote:And how is a squad that does more for cheaper worse than assault marines? Just curious as to your reasoning behind it.

An Assault Marine costs 18 points, as does a Skyclaw. However, the Assault Marine has BS 4 and can actually shoot before charging. The Assault Marine's bolt pistol shot mitigates the Skyclaw's extra attack on the charge (in many cases, the bolt pistol is actually better), and the Assault Marine is both harder to hit in melee (WS 4) and can use special weapons (read: flamers) much more efficiently.

Defiler wrote:I'm sorry to single you out, but I keep seeing posts about the Mark Of The Wulfen. It replaces your attack characteristic with 2-7, and also can't be used in conjunction with any special weapon. Wolf claws, frost blade, power fist, runic weapon, anything.

I wouldn't put MotW on an IC. I wouldn't put it on a GH with a powerfist or powerweapon. But, it's my understanding from reading the codex at FLGS, that you could have one GH in a pack with a powerweapon or powerfist and a second with MotW. iirc, the GH entry allows for "one model" with powerweapon/fist, plasma pistol, wolf totem, and MotW, which means you could put them all on one model, or put them on 4 different models.

I don't think a powerfist on a grey hunter is worth it. I'm not sure a powerweapon is either. But, MotW is relatively cheap, gives you extra attacks, and gives the model rending - at the cost of losing his ranged weapons. I'm thinking MotW is a decent upgrade to a GH squad, and I'd probably take that over either the powerfist/weapon. It gives you more attacks against horde units, and with the extra rending attacks, is probably about as likely to wound an MEQ as a GH with a powerweapon.

But, if put a Wolf Guard with the unit, he's getting a powerfist since he is A2. But, then I would probably also add a combi-weapon, since that's relatively cheap (either a combi-melta if the unit is in a rhino, or a combi-flamer if the unit has 2 meltas). But, then you're looking at a model that's about 43 points (iirc). Now, arguably, he's replacing a 30-point-ish model (GH with a powerfist), so for 13 points, you get an extra powerfist attack, an extra leadership, and a combi-weapon (which, you don't need if you take 10 GHs).


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Man, I didn't realize that Assault Marines were only 18 points. Wow. Guess I need to play a little more often than quarterly.

I cannot imagine how one could claim GHs are worse than tacs- they can take 2 specials instead of 1 heavy and a special, don't pay for a mandatory sarge (but can get one with more options cheaper) and trade Combat Tactics and Squads for CSM loadout, CounterCharge and Acute Senses. Countercharge is better than Combat Tactics for flightier units and it's not like they lose ATSKNF. Transport options are almost identical. GHs benefit from more CC equipment options. I would say that in a non-Vulkan list, GHs are better than tacs. I would agree, though, that a 1A Pfist models seems odds. Especially when you can make him Wulfen.

BCs of all varieties suck thanks to losing their shooting phase when within 6 inches. Without that shooting, an assault marine squad generates just as man S4 attacks as the Skyclaws (10 man SCs=40 S4 attacks 10 man AM= 10 BP shots + 30 attacks) and can also carry more specials. A WG babysitter helps mitigate this, but the WS3/BS3 issue remains. SCs also can't have a JP Chaplain (the Priest is close, but only picks 1 category to get Preferred Enemy against).

BCs on bikes can sport heavy weapons but BS3 and headstrong means no thanks. And plain BCs are just as expensive as GH. Keep in mind, again, that GHs firing BPs get just as many S4 attacks when charging as BCs who can't fire.

I have to agree. The more that I think about it, the more the BCs depress me. Cheap jump pack troops and the bike troops are nice, but they compete with Wolves on Wolves, Land Speeders, and even just plain wolves. If BCs on foot were cheaper than GHs, they'd be a little more attractive. Being Init 4 and WS 3 means they get badly mauled by a lot of units. They're not even worth putting with Ragnar, who by the fluff, generally is running around with some BCs.

I also have to say the Wolves on Wolves concept just doesn't work for me. I may end up fielding them just because I'm an awful win-at-all-costs type of person. If they had Storm Shields and Spears, or similar, I might find it a little easier to accept. Plus, I can't shake the image of Steve Carrell riding a "fuzzy tractor" from Anchorman out of my head whenever I think of Wolves on Wolves.

As someone at the FLGS said, it'd be like making Cowboy Space Marines. There's some archetypes that stay 'cool' in the translation, and some that don't.

jmurph wrote:I cannot imagine how one could claim GHs are worse than tacs- they can take 2 specials instead of 1 heavy and a special, don't pay for a mandatory sarge (but can get one with more options cheaper) and trade Combat Tactics and Squads for CSM loadout, CounterCharge and Acute Senses. Countercharge is better than Combat Tactics for flightier units and it's not like they lose ATSKNF. Transport options are almost identical. GHs benefit from more CC equipment options. I would say that in a non-Vulkan list, GHs are better than tacs. I would agree, though, that a 1A Pfist models seems odds. Especially when you can make him Wulfen.

The Space Marine Sergeant is far better than the Wolf Guard. If you can't understand why having to use an Elites slot and losing your second weapon option in order to have a Sergeant is extremely bad, I don't know what to say. Vulkan Tacs are worse than normal Tacs, so I'm not sure what you're saying there either.

GHs are different that Tac Marines or CSM marines. Not sure that any of them are significantly better or worse. GHs don't need a Sgt equivalent to get a PP, PW, MotW, or Wolf Totem. 2 specials can be better than combat-squading a heavy and special weapon. GHs get more attacks than Tac Marines. CSM can't combat squad and can't rally below 50% of squad size, and have to have 10 models to get a heavy weapon.

Well the power fist was originally not my consensus, I've added it into my squads to see if it would work. Only testing will prove it's worth. I've sadly been on the receiving end of SW testing and haven't had a chance to test my theories.
ATM it's there for the off chance that it kills something good. But I can see where you guys are coming from in regards to being against it.
As for GH being worse than Tac Marines - absolutely not!
GH get more attacks when charged, have uber grit and are point for point better than Tac Marines. Same goes for Skyclaws.


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Oh and they get MOTW. That option is full of win in squads.

Fetterkey wrote:Combat Tactics and Combat Squads > Counterattack, ubergrit, and Acute Senses. Further, Tactical Marines can take a heavy weapon, can take Sergeants without using an Elites slot, and can take a special weapon, a heavy weapon, and a Sergeant. Grey Hunters have to pick two out of three, though they get a second special weapon instead of a heavy weapon. To compensate for their superiority, Tactical Marines cost 16 points each instead of 15. This higher cost is completely justified.

cool, i get to post this twice! luckily i've already mathhammered the two units. first off, here's my opinion on the special rules for each. combat tactics = countercharge and acute senses = combat squads in real world value. i think countercharge (especially for an army that excels in CC like the wolves) is easily worth the value of fleet/stubborn/etc that you can opt out for with combat tactics with regular marine special characters. both acute senses and combat squads are rarely used in my experience so they're about equal. does that mean noone uses them every time and feels that it's awesome? nope, just not in my area. people prefer to have larger squads (rhino sized) where i play for concentrated fire and survivability and rarely split their squads. i'm the only person in my two FLGS that has used combat squads in the past 6 months roughly and that's only because my BA army was made up in the 3rd edition days of 5 man las plas tact squads and i don't feel like painting more grunts. now for the more nondebatable analysis:


5 man grey hunter squad with free flamer and WG upgrade (so that takes the vet serg out of the equation): 5x15+18=93pts
5 man tact squad with "free" sergeant plus additional marine (for equal total of 6): 90+16=106pts

so, to recap, for -13 points, a space wolf squad gets 1.5x to 3x the punch in close combat attacks and a free flamer (with the other special rules supposedly equaled out). does the marine situation get a bit better at a full squad of 10 (max rhino rush squad size)? yes, but they're still not equal.

9*greyhunters plus free flamer plus WG (no upgrades) = 9*15+18=153
5 man tact squad with vet serg plus 5 additional marines including free missle launcher and free flamer = 90+5*16=170

traditionally in tact squads, a heavy bolter costs 5pts and a missle launcher costs 10points so the difference between the two squads adjusted for the most likely (and expensive) free heavy weapon is 7points in favor of the wolves. so to recap, at 10 men, the wolves "pay" -7 points for 1.5 to 3 times the close combat ability with all other costs accounted for. while i agree some (not all) of the special characters in the wolf army are overcosted, their regular units gain plenty of benefits for little to no (or in this case) negative cost. frankly, i resent that i have to take a vet sergeant in regular marine squads as i rarely saw the utility in taking on prior to the requirements. it's a BENEFIT that the wolves can CHOOSE to take one or not, not a disadvantage. the wolf guard give you almost complete customization options that having to spend a single elite slot on them (while at the same time able to take a termie squad and buff multiple other troops/fast attack slots with leaders) is hardly worth complaining about. IMO, long fangs deserve a discount on their heavy weapons cost because they have some real downsides (no buffer red shirt marines). grey hunters are all meat with no filler; they have no real downside and that's why lots of people are planning on spamming them.

Please explain how Skyclaws are better than or even equal to Assault Marines. As for Grey Hunters, you don't *want* Tactical Marines and the like to be good in assault. You want them to lose combat and fall back so the rest of your army can shoot the assault unit to hell.


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warboss wrote:combat tactics = countercharge and acute senses = combat squads in real world value. i think countercharge (especially for an army that excels in CC like the wolves) is easily worth the value of fleet/stubborn/etc that you can opt out for with combat tactics with regular marine special characters.

Sure, but Combat Tactics (the actual rule) is far better than Fleet, Stubborn, or any of those things.

warboss wrote:both acute senses and combat squads are rarely used in my experience so they're about equal. does that mean noone uses them every time and feels that it's awesome? nope, just not in my area. people prefer to have larger squads (rhino sized) where i play for concentrated fire and survivability and rarely split their squads.

Combat Squads give you *more* concentrated firepower and survivability, so I'm not sure what you mean here.

warboss wrote:now for the more nondebatable analysis:


5 man grey hunter squad with free flamer and WG upgrade (so that takes the vet serg out of the equation): 5x15+18=93pts
5 man tact squad with "free" sergeant plus additional marine (for equal total of 6): 90+16=106pts

This is an illogical comparison. Nobody fields six-man squads with nothing. Further, their lack of Combat Tactics means that Space Wolves can't escape from undesirable assaults. For example, a Dreadnought can easily kill a full unit of Grey Hunters, whereas a Tactical unit can escape reliably. This means that Space Wolves need to field special CCWs to avoid being bogged down and killed in such assaults, which adds to their cost. For example, a standard Tactical Squad with flamer, multi-melta, and Rhino costs 205 points; the same squad, if fielded in a Space Wolves force, would lose the multi-melta for a meltagun and be forced to take an expensive power fist (and probably a Wolf Guard as well) in order to safely fulfill the same role, thanks to their lack of Combat Tactics. By my calculations, the SW unit would cost more and be worse.

warboss wrote:it's a BENEFIT that the wolves can CHOOSE to take one or not, not a disadvantage. the wolf guard give you almost complete customization options that having to spend a single elite slot on them (while at the same time able to take a termie squad and buff multiple other troops/fast attack slots with leaders) is hardly worth complaining about.

Nope. I'd rather have mandatory Sergeants and another Dreadnought.

Fetterkey wrote:Please explain how Skyclaws are better than or even equal to Assault Marines. As for Grey Hunters, you don't *want* Tactical Marines and the like to be good in assault. You want them to lose combat and fall back so the rest of your army can shoot the assault unit to hell.


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warboss wrote:combat tactics = countercharge and acute senses = combat squads in real world value. i think countercharge (especially for an army that excels in CC like the wolves) is easily worth the value of fleet/stubborn/etc that you can opt out for with combat tactics with regular marine special characters.

Sure, but Combat Tactics (the actual rule) is far better than Fleet, Stubborn, or any of those things.

warboss wrote:both acute senses and combat squads are rarely used in my experience so they're about equal. does that mean noone uses them every time and feels that it's awesome? nope, just not in my area. people prefer to have larger squads (rhino sized) where i play for concentrated fire and survivability and rarely split their squads.

Combat Squads give you *more* concentrated firepower and survivability, so I'm not sure what you mean here.

warboss wrote:now for the more nondebatable analysis:


5 man grey hunter squad with free flamer and WG upgrade (so that takes the vet serg out of the equation): 5x15+18=93pts
5 man tact squad with "free" sergeant plus additional marine (for equal total of 6): 90+16=106pts

This is an illogical comparison. Nobody fields six-man squads with nothing. Further, their lack of Combat Tactics means that Space Wolves can't escape from undesirable assaults. For example, a Dreadnought can easily kill a full unit of Grey Hunters, whereas a Tactical unit can escape reliably. This means that Space Wolves need to field special CCWs to avoid being bogged down and killed in such assaults, which adds to their cost. For example, a standard Tactical Squad with flamer, multi-melta, and Rhino costs 205 points; the same squad, if fielded in a Space Wolves force, would lose the multi-melta for a meltagun and be forced to take an expensive power fist (and probably a Wolf Guard as well) in order to safely fulfill the same role, thanks to their lack of Combat Tactics. By my calculations, the SW unit would cost more and be worse.

warboss wrote:it's a BENEFIT that the wolves can CHOOSE to take one or not, not a disadvantage. the wolf guard give you almost complete customization options that having to spend a single elite slot on them (while at the same time able to take a termie squad and buff multiple other troops/fast attack slots with leaders) is hardly worth complaining about.

Nope. I'd rather have mandatory Sergeants and another Dreadnought.

1.people play alot of mech 2.if your going to have heavy weapons that means your squad isn't going anywhere which means a deepstriking shooty unit is going to take it out easily especially if your near your edge of the table(falling back) 3.wolves are a close combat army so just because you got one squad in clsoe combat doesn't mean you can just blast them away...there will be another 5 right behind it 4.you put too much faith in dreads

1. Yes, this is one of many factors that go against the Wolves.

2. Deepstriking shooty units are generally not good and can be defeated with trivially obvious "tactics." I would gladly trade a combat squad for almost any deep strike unit in the game.

3. I don't know what this means, please clarify.

4. You put too much faith in... krak grenades? 1 attack powerfists? I'm not really sure what you think will allow Grey Hunters to beat Dreadnoughts in assault, but I'd love to know what it is. Please enlighten me.

Fetterkey wrote:[Sure, but Combat Tactics (the actual rule) is far better than Fleet, Stubborn, or any of those things..

i agree that it's quite useful and better than some of the other special options but the important point is that it's of equal value to countercharge. the wolves will be beasts in ANYONE'S first turn of close combat.

Fetterkey wrote:[Combat Squads give you *more* concentrated firepower and survivability, so I'm not sure what you mean here..

5 guys = 1 killpoint. 10 guys = 1 killpoint. 10 guys more survivable. also, 5 guys with 2 casualties = moral, 3 casualties for 10 = morale so your guys don't move themselves outside of their preferred 12" killing range. also, if you have a squad of 10 shot, you can remove the guys from the back to still be within charge range the next turn (and you want to charge or be charged with wolves) i'm not sure how you come up with more concentrated firepower by SPLITTING a squad. in actuality, most people will be tempted to split their shots or hold one still and move the other instead of concentrating.

Fetterkey wrote:[This is an illogical comparison. Nobody fields six-man squads with nothing. Further, their lack of Combat Tactics means that Space Wolves can't escape from undesirable assaults. For example, a Dreadnought can easily kill a full unit of Grey Hunters, whereas a Tactical unit can escape reliably. This means that Space Wolves need to field special CCWs to avoid being bogged down and killed in such assaults, which adds to their cost. For example, a standard Tactical Squad with flamer, multi-melta, and Rhino costs 205 points; the same squad, if fielded in a Space Wolves force, would lose the multi-melta for a meltagun and be forced to take an expensive power fist (and probably a Wolf Guard as well) in order to safely fulfill the same role, thanks to their lack of Combat Tactics. By my calculations, the SW unit would cost more and be worse..

Fetterkey wrote:[Nope. I'd rather have mandatory Sergeants and another Dreadnought.

i put 6 man squads in there so we could compare the value of like squads, apples to apples, oranges to oranges. will i field 6man squads? nope, because i don't see the utility of putting a wolf guard. granted, the SW don't have an easy button to escape undesirable assaults but there will be far fewer of them since they are so much better at assault than regular marines. 1.5 to 3x the attacks on the first turn (and that's when they're the ones being charged!) plus the bonus non-character powerfist option means that they'll take a much heftier bite out of a unit charging them then regular marines would.

as for your "calculations", i don't see a single number in there. you're comparing a two different squads and claiming an advantage. what's the purpose of your flamer multimelta squad? (i.e. it's role that you mention) the closest REAL comparison would be taking a grey hunter squad with a free flamer and regular melta.

tac squad with vet serg, 10 guys and free flamer/multimelta: 90+5*16=170
GH squad of 10 guys with free flamer and melta (?5pts?): 10*15 + 5= 155

so, (assuming combat tactics and squads = acute senses and countercharge, debatable but IMO they are) you trade the vet serg (who according to your own post you don't want because he'll increase squad leadership and make you stay in undesirable assaults) and multimelta for a melta, 1.5 to 3x the close combat strength, and 15 bonus points to use elsewhere. GH are pure win.. they're tactical squads with a big red "easy" button above them on the battlefield and i suspect you'll be seeing ALOT of them for the next couple of years.

as for the skyclaws, i don't know enough about them personally to do the above analysis. with my few minutes of handson time with the codex, i focused more on the GH and WG entries. from the rumors, they don't sound more powerful than assault marines mainly due to the fact that they can't shoot within 6". how many points less are they compared to regular assault marines?

warboss wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:[Sure, but Combat Tactics (the actual rule) is far better than Fleet, Stubborn, or any of those things..

i agree that it's quite useful and better than some of the other special options but the important point is that it's of equal value to countercharge. the wolves will be beasts in ANYONE'S first turn of close combat.

I disagree, but your mileage may vary; nonetheless, even if it is an equal ability, the benefits provided by the superior Marine organization make them a better unit overall.

warboss wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:[Combat Squads give you *more* concentrated firepower and survivability, so I'm not sure what you mean here..

5 guys = 1 killpoint. 10 guys = 1 killpoint. 10 guys more survivable. also, 5 guys with 2 casualties = moral, 3 casualties for 10 = morale so your guys don't move themselves outside of their preferred 12" killing range. also, if you have a squad of 10 shot, you can remove the guys from the back to still be within charge range the next turn (and you want to charge or be charged with wolves) i'm not sure how you come up with more concentrated firepower by SPLITTING a squad. in actuality, most people will be tempted to split their shots or hold one still and move the other instead of concentrating.

Kill Points are only in effect 1/3 of the time. 2/3 of the time, 2 Combat Squads = 2 units to contest or capture objectives. Further, Combat Squads gives you a choice of which format to use, so you can choose whichever is more efficient for the scenario. As for superior survivability and concentration, a standard Tactical Squad is unable to efficiently focus its fire because the special and heavy weapons are unlikely to both be usable at the same time.

warboss wrote:granted, the SW don't have an easy button to escape undesirable assaults but there will be far fewer of them since they are so much better at assault than regular marines. 1.5 to 3x the attacks on the first turn (and that's when they're the ones being charged!) plus the bonus non-character powerfist option means that they'll take a much heftier bite out of a unit charging them then regular marines would.

A powerfist on a one-attack model isn't efficient. Further, most of the undesirable assaults you'll face are against units where basic attacks are useless or quasi-useless (Biker Councils, Dreadnoughts, etc.)

warboss wrote:as for your "calculations", i don't see a single number in there. you're comparing a two different squads and claiming an advantage. what's the purpose of your flamer multimelta squad? (i.e. it's role that you mention) the closest REAL comparison would be taking a grey hunter squad with a free flamer and regular melta.

The flamer/multimelta/Rhino squad is a very common feature in "competitive" Marine lists that I've seen. The Rhino advances downfield to claim objectives while the multimelta threatens enemies from the top hatch. Ideally, the squad never dismounts, but if it does have to rapidfire, the flamer greatly augments that attack.

warboss wrote:tac squad with vet serg, 10 guys and free flamer/multimelta: 90+5*16=170
GH squad of 10 guys with free flamer and melta (?5pts?): 10*15 + 5 or 10= 155

so, (assuming combat tactics and squads = acute senses and countercharge, debatable but IMO they are) you trade the vet serg (who according to your own post you don't want because he'll increase squad leadership and make you stay in undesirable assaults) and multimelta for a melta, 1.5 to 3x the close combat strength, and 15 bonus points to use elsewhere. GH are pure win.. they're tactical squads with a big red "easy" button above them on the battlefield and i suspect you'll be seeing ALOT of them for the next couple of years.

You want to have a Veteran Sergeant for Space Wolves because you want to be able to overcome the enemy in assault and want to avoid being panicked by shooting. Hoping that you will flee when you lose assault is not reliable. Non-suicidal units that can flee assault don't need special CC powers; non-suicidal units that can't flee do need such weapons, as their best hope is that they can overcome the enemy in the first place. Further, if you play Space Wolves as an assault army, special close combat weapons are obviously important.

You're right, of course, when you say that Grey Hunters are easier to use than Tactical Marines, and that many people will field them, but that doesn't make them better. People field all kinds of terrible stuff all the time; I'm just trying to point out from the start that this unit is overrated and that Tactical Marines can perform just as well, if not better, in the hands of an experienced player.

warboss wrote:as for the skyclaws, i don't know enough about them personally to do the above analysis. with my few minutes of handson time with the codex, i focused more on the GH and WG entries. from the rumors, they don't sound more powerful than assault marines mainly due to the fact that they can't shoot within 6". how many points less are they compared to regular assault marines?

Skyclaws cost the same as Assault Marines. They are not worth their points; Assault Marines are dubiously worth it already, and Skyclaws are worse for the same cost.

Fetterkey:

A Space Marine squad's Multi-Melta can't fire out of the top hatch of the Rhino if the Rhino moves. That's the advantage of the Razorback.

Well IMHO Im the WG Sgt type (What can I say, I like to have heroes)

Clarification please: MotW removes ALL previous equipment and bans upgrades? Thats the gist I've been getting...?

Oh, and 2 BS4 melta would litteraly toast a Dread (except Bjorn who'd just get them all drunk)

Nurglitch wrote:Fetterkey:

A Space Marine squad's Multi-Melta can't fire out of the top hatch of the Rhino if the Rhino moves. That's the advantage of the Razorback.

I know this. Nonetheless, the unit is commonly used; it moves up, then sits in midfield and threatens enemy movement options.

Sorry, at first glance you gave the impression that your group was playing as if they could. I'm certainly a fan of squads firing out of Rhinos, particularly Devastator and Havoc squads, but I've noticed recently that while passengers are protected within a transport, their ability to attack the enemy is vulnerable to the damage effects of vehicles - at least you get a leadership test against pinning, for example.

I'd predict that Space Wolf players will gravitate towards multiple small units mounted in Razorbacks as a result of the trade-offs involved in equipping Grey Hunters.

Yeah, I am trying to figure out why Sky Claws are worst than Assualt Squads.

Assualt squads are dedicated CC squads...not shooters, so the los of 1 BS is not as big a deal and you wourld probably equip them with a flamer anyways.

You can add a WG without losing any options (unlike with GH in a rhino/DP), thus preempting the head strong rule.

With a WG you have 2 special CC weapons in a squad.

The boost in counter assault or berserk charge makes them much more effective CC units compared to normal assault marines despite the WS 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote: I'm certainly a fan of squads firing out of Rhinos, particularly Devastator and Havoc squads, but I've noticed recently that while passengers are protected within a transport, their ability to attack the enemy is vulnerable to the damage effects of vehicles - at least you get a leadership test against pinning, for example.

Hi Nurglitch, I don't quite follow. Are you saying that the stunned/shaken results for a transport affect a passengers ability to fire? I wasn't aware of this caviot. Was this FAQ recently?

The WS3 really lets them down, despite the added potential of Berserk Charge. Let's suppose that a unit of 10 Blood Claws attacked a unit of 30 Orks. The Blood Claws would get 40 attacks, but only 20 would hit on average, and 10 wound, 2 saves, for 8 dead Orks. 10 Assault Marines would only get 30 attacks, 15 hits, 8 wounds, 1 save, for 7 dead Orks. But...

22 Orks attacking back against Blood Claws would hit on 3+. Supposing Slugga Boyz, you'd have 66 attacks, 44 would hit, 15 wounds, 10 saves, and five dead Blood Claws.

23 Orks attacking back against Assault Marines would hit on 4+. Supposing Slugga Boyz again, you'd have 66 attacks, 33 would hit, 11 wounds, 7 saves, and four dead Assault Marines.

7:4 rather than 8:5 is in favour of Assault Marines, since they would sustain less casualties.

The Blood Claws (Sky Claws, etc) would be especially boned when it comes to engaging dedicated assault troops. I think I've already shown where a pack of Blood Claws would be destroyed by Lucius, on average, if they charged him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WyomingFox:

See p.67 of the Rulebook, in the Vehicles section, the second page on Transport vehicles.

Thanks Nurglitch

Blood claws with a wolf guard to allow them to fire before charging make them superior to standard assault marines. Without the wolf guard to lead them however they are worse.

I would always take grey hunters over tac marines unless I had vulkan. Cheaper weapons, and a good cc leader or a free 2nd special weapon. Of course you don't think vulkan is good either so

Nurglitch wrote:I'd predict that Space Wolf players will gravitate towards multiple small units mounted in Razorbacks as a result of the trade-offs involved in equipping Grey Hunters.

I agree with this assessment; Razorbacks are not very efficient for Tactical Squads, but can be used very effectively with Grey Hunter squads.

wyomingfox wrote:Assualt squads are dedicated CC squads...not shooters, so the los of 1 BS is not as big a deal and you wourld probably equip them with a flamer anyways.

You can add a WG without losing any options (unlike with GH in a rhino/DP), thus preempting the head strong rule.

The Sky Claws, thanks to their Headstrong rule, are not able to shoot before they charge, flamer or no flamer. Therefore, a Sky Claw gets 4 Strength 4 WS 3 (generally hit on 4+) melee attacks on the charge. This sounds good until you realize that an Assault Marine gets 3 Strength 4 WS 4 (hit on 4+ or 3+ depending on target) melee attacks on the charge, 1 Strength 4 BS 4 AP 5 attack that takes place before the combat (so is essentially initiative infinity), is harder to hit, and can use his special weapons better. Also, Assault Marines don't need an Elite slot for Sergeants.

tl;dr version: An S4 AP5 bolt pistol shot that hits before combat on a 3+ is better than a S4 AP- chainsword attack that hits during combat on a 4+.

ph34r wrote:I would always take grey hunters over tac marines unless I had vulkan.

Vulkan tacs are worse than standard tacs, sooooo...