I see alot of posts talking about how spacewolf attacks cause models to be "removed from play"

what does this mean? Is it an attack that invulnerable saves can be taken against? Or does it flat out ignore invulnerable saves? If abaddon or calgar kills lukas the trickster, is it just straight removed?

it means exactly what it says: "remove from play". It doesn't actually cause a wound so no saves of any kinda can be taken. And Eternal Warrior is not going to help either!

airmang wrote:it means exactly what it says: "remove from play". It doesn't actually cause a wound so no saves of any kinda can be taken. And Eternal Warrior is not going to help either!

Remove from play?
My goodness, that looks absolutely scary.

I see this going the same way as DH force weps

but yes, as stated, no wounds are caused, so saves of any kind are mute.
The model is gone.

I had the opportunity to look into the new SW codex but didn't do it.
I heard that the Rune Priest has this special rule.

Finally, Force weapons actually doing their job?

Lots of Space Puppy love at the moment, and equal hate...can't wait to actually own the codex though.

My 7 Cents.

Well, if thats actually how it works, I hereby state that I will NOT be playing against space wolves players making use of this rule.. and I will try to get everyone in my area to do the same.

if these bastards have VORTEX grenades, I say we shun all space wolf players.... no other army has such a rule, where models are "instantly" removed, unless its in very unlikely curcumstances, like orks...

Space wolf players will soon learn that they can either A) get a real army that isn't OTT cheesy, or B) play only in tournaments, because nobody wants to play them if they can help it.

I just want to know how this intersects with C'Tan.

I have to actually read the codex for myself when I can but from what I hear the Rune priest has the vortex laser power. Range 24. have a straight line from the rune priest out to 24 inches. Anything this line touches makes an initiative test or is just removed from game if they fail. Monsterous creatures get a +1 but still really bad for Initiative 1 Tyranid carnifexs or other expensive units that have low init. This is total bullcrap.

Initiative test? How does it function?

Wuesten: Roll a d6. If you roll equal to or under your initiative you're safe. If you roll over, you're done.

Orkestra wrote:Wuesten: Roll a d6. If you roll equal to or under your initiative you're safe. If you roll over, you're done.

This is the old initiative test.
Its not used in the current incarnations of the rule book and codices (bar new SW), right?

Well, it's in the 5th edition BRB, near the beginning of the Rulebook, in the characteristics section.

My 7 Cents.

one of the only other places you see stat tests in 40k is the special rule hit and run; also an initiative test.

Frankly, I only see a couple fairly specific places this power is good; making Tyranid players cry (poof goes the carnifex), a'sploding Tau battlesuits, and sniping special characters with crappy I (which isn't actually that many). I don't really anticipate SW players hitting more than 3 or 4 models out of a 10-man squad (which means 1 dead marine or 2 dead guardsmen), so it's not exactly a mass killer, though is unsurprisingly effective against all the fancy hammers of the day; TH/SS termies, Nob bikers, etc.

it has a 33% chance of killing all ork and necron HQ's...

it has a 33% chance of killing a nightbringer.

its just stupid.

Horst wrote:it has a 33% chance of killing all ork and necron HQ's...

it has a 33% chance of killing a nightbringer.

its just stupid.

A tie on a stat test is a pass. Necron Lords and nob+ orks have I3. Thats 50%

Sorry Shep, The Warboss and Necron Lord are, in fact, both I4. Big Meks and Nobz are I3, though.

with the exception of necron HQs (though watching the orb carrier go poof would be hilarious), more units generally considered to be some of the best in their codex.

Oh, and the Nightbringer's a Monstrous Creature and therefore gets a -1 to his roll, and will only die on a 6.

*packs away GK GM*

It was a good run, what can I say.

The Defenestrator wrote:Sorry Shep, The Warboss and Necron Lord are, in fact, both I4. Big Meks and Nobz are I3, though.

with the exception of necron HQs (though watching the orb carrier go poof would be hilarious), more units generally considered to be some of the best in their codex.

Oh, and the Nightbringer's a Monstrous Creature and therefore gets a -1 to his roll, and will only die on a 6.

ahh so even less scary for the lord and warboss...

so nobs die 50% of the time to it. Sounds kinda like what happens to nobs when a demolisher shell lands on them. Certainly not 'unprecedented'.

I'm in the camp of, good not amazing. I'm not intimidated one bit by the power with any of my armies (tau/IG/space marines) I will show it its proper respect. When playing tau I will ensure that my crisis suits and broadsides are properly screened by kroot until such time as I melt the rhino that the rune priest is hiding in. If I'm deployed on the baseline in a refused flank, and you want to drop pod into my lines with him, then your line will just contact one of my broadisdes or crisis suits, then I'll markerlight/plasma rifle that unit to oblivion. With IG, I just run tanks and infantry platoons. Even if you work desperately to get a close range 'down the ranks' jaws off, your gonna hit what 10 guardsmen? And I'll only fail 50% of my stat tests? 5 dead 5 point models? And against marines, if you pass the psychic hood, you might be able to get all 5 modes of a unit (I don't run 10 of anything in my list) so you kill one maybe 2.

As for Nids. Who seem to be the only army that is truly affected by this power, correct target priority and maneuvering will keep the MAXIMUM number of carnifexes hit to 1. You can't just have all your fexes massed together, you'll need to spread them out more, and deploy screens of gaunts correctly. Scuttle some gaunts out to reduce the number of drop pod landing sites, shoot a rhino down asap if it has a rune priest, so you can control exactly when and where he can get his jaws off to hit one of your fexes, and then even then, you've got a 50/50 chance to live if you beefed up your initiative.

Heaven forbid a model that costs 150-200 points could be killed by just a single shot. There aren't any 100-250 point models that can be removed from the table with just a single shot from one weapon, or are there?

This reply got a little snarky. But I'm just fighting the good fight against over-reaction and 'sky is falling' arguments that aren't rational and its a tough fight.

that being said a character in a squad is protected. the line hits three guys in a squad. take three tests remove casualtys from anywhere in squad

skkipper wrote:that being said a character in a squad is protected. the line hits three guys in a squad. take three tests remove casualtys from anywhere in squad

You sure about that? I believe the power specifies that you remove whatever model is hit. Seems to me that would mean character/special sniping is suddenly a factor.

Stuff like this is always gonna be over hyped. Didn't someone say it only happens when you kill the trickster? So it isn't that good at all. It takes away one model.

With every new codex that comes out theres a group of people who come with it saying how unbeatable it is, about things in the army that'll win games by themselves. After a few months it dies down because they realise any unit, no matter how 'invincible' or no matter how good the power in the end can be beat quite easily with the right unit/manouvers.

Chill people, it's only gonna affect one model and only if you use this character it sounds like.

Tarondor wrote:Chill people, it's only gonna affect one model and only if you use this character it sounds like.

Hardly. It affects as many models as you can connect on a 24" line. If that rune priest is wearing a jump pack (which I expect to become about as rare as a lash prince), you've got a *lot* of flexibility in aligning that axis.

I think they should have really capped this and classed it as instant death.
I think "removed from play" is somewhat harsh lol

A nice shot through a nidzilla army could see you dropping 3 fex's in 1 go.
TH/SS termies, well, they deserve to die

but the fact that characters price gets bumped up when they have eternal warrior now seems mute.
Calgar (aka: Hammerhands smurf) gets blasted clean out of his armour in a single turn, EW cannot save him.

Dante, lord of blood angels and the sky gets shot down like a fething duck.
Means the only characters in a SM worth taking against pups are libbies, simply to try and stop the damage.

Please tell me that the T4 model doesent have a ++ save or eternal warrior with his jaw power.
If not, i think my tri-las pred will be sniping the fether at the start of the game.
If he does, then the vindi and tri-las will be shooting at him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Just a thought here, but it isnt really over-powered after a little thinking.
Sure, it kills most things in its way for 100 points.

But he is still a space pup, so T4 and a 3+ save (i think)
Should be able to just instant death him.

Wait, just found out its the Rune Priest line thing.
To be removed it's take an Initiative test. So it's not as bad as you'd think, it'll only do major damage to the likes of Orks, who have a lot of numbers anyway. Plus I bet it's a small line ie 8" or lower. Let's see when we get there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Can't you take 2 HQs in 1 HQ slot? So you can have 4 of these guys?
Wont be efficient but funny none-the-less

Dude, this weapon would (literally) dominate carnifexes...

Yeah, this makes me think that the Changeling is even better.

Tarondor wrote:Wait, just found out its the Rune Priest line thing.
To be removed it's take an Initiative test. So it's not as bad as you'd think, it'll only do major damage to the likes of Orks, who have a lot of numbers anyway. Plus I bet it's a small line ie 8" or lower. Let's see when we get there.

It's 24" actually, fortunately it is a Psychic shooting attack, so getting into CC is a must or staggering everything.

And the 4 HQ's have to be different according to the SW Codex, including different Psychic powers

Horst wrote:Well, if thats actually how it works, I hereby state that I will NOT be playing against space wolves players making use of this rule.. and I will try to get everyone in my area to do the same.

if these bastards have VORTEX grenades, I say we shun all space wolf players.... no other army has such a rule, where models are "instantly" removed, unless its in very unlikely curcumstances, like orks...

Space wolf players will soon learn that they can either A) get a real army that isn't OTT cheesy, or B) play only in tournaments, because nobody wants to play them if they can help it.

Everyone has a remove from play rule. Sweeping advance. That is what really destroys Necrons.

Kirika wrote:I have to actually read the codex for myself when I can but from what I hear the Rune priest has the vortex laser power. Range 24. have a straight line from the rune priest out to 24 inches. Anything this line touches makes an initiative test or is just removed from game if they fail. Monsterous creatures get a +1 but still really bad for Initiative 1 Tyranid carnifexs or other expensive units that have low init. This is total bullcrap.

Would this include friendly models ?

Also poor Ku'gath 6 wounds and eternal warrior and 50 - 50 chance of dieing with no save.

"As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24" away. This line may pass through terrain. Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test (see Characteristic Tests in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook). If the model fails the test, it is removed from play. Monstrous creatures may subtract one from their dice roll due to their tremendous size and strength, though remember that the roll of a 6 is always a failure."

I'm pretty sure this is the wording, and it doesn't mention enemies, so I guess keeping enemy models in between you and the Rune Priest would be a good idea.

How come Cato Sicarious has a special sword that isn't even mastercrafted, is only a powerweapon for most uses, then can do a single shot Str 6 that isn't even guaranteed to hit, and "Inflicts Instant Death" when it does, meaning it's worthless against EW's?

Vs. Joe Shmoe Runepriest getting a "removed from play" power? That does seem a bit overpowered, but I'll sit with the Wait-And-See camp. SM's have Vortex of Doom on our Librarians, but that's got a nasty backfire when it fails.

Here is somthing to think about.
"Any Model it Touches"
Looks like Njal is leading from the Front.

There'll be a major setback, like it'll cost +100pt to the like 125pt Runepriest, only one can have it. It might only affect a certain number of models in that line, it might have a casting roll of some sort or it might miscast easily etc

Anyone got a leak or can write it down and post it tommorow or something?

The Defenestrator wrote:Sorry Shep, The Warboss and Necron Lord are, in fact, both I4. Big Meks and Nobz are I3, though.

with the exception of necron HQs (though watching the orb carrier go poof would be hilarious), more units generally considered to be some of the best in their codex.

Oh, and the Nightbringer's a Monstrous Creature and therefore gets a -1 to his roll, and will only die on a 6.

A Rune Priest can kill a Nightbringer or a Carnifex from far.
I cannot imagine this.

Maybe the Necron and Tyranids just need their updates with codex creep sprinkled all over...

But yea, the only experience I have with 'remove model' has been Gift of Chaos...sort of similar, just not somethin reliable, but with the range of THIS power....damn....

My 7 Cents.

Well, I remember that the Rune Priest in the old (still current) codex has leadership 9.
So there is a chance that he fails to pass his psychic test.
How about the Rune Priest in the new codex.
I hope he has ld 9 too.

Don't think I'll take Shadow in the Warp off my Hive Tyrant anytime soon.

Tarondor wrote:There'll be a major setback, like it'll cost +100pt to the like 125pt Runepriest, only one can have it. It might only affect a certain number of models in that line, it might have a casting roll of some sort or it might miscast easily etc

Anyone got a leak or can write it down and post it tommorow or something?

No, there are no restrictions such as the ones you've proposed. You don't need a "leak" as GW sent preview copies of the codex to lots of game stores.

Runepriests follow the same temlate that librarians do: they have set stats, and get to pick two of a list of powers for free. Their powers are pretty much the best in the game as of now.

Not that big of a deal

I hope this model has fun in his box, because I don't really intend on playing it.

And, just to be super sneaky, if you take lukas and things arent looking to good for him in cc, you could catch him in the line and he can stasis bomb everyone

I think I smell cheese...

Team tournies will be dominated by Lash/Runepriest armies. Which is fine by me as I play Chaos and my buddy plays SW

Guys. Seriously, many of you act like a group of panicking school girls.

The power is on a 100 point model before any updates (two powers included though). That guy can cast one (1) power a turn. Two (2) if he pays 50 points more.

What do you do if you see that guy over the table? Attack him with your 6 carnifexes in a conga line? Määääp! Wrong!
Attack him with your ground troops, preferably genestealers, otherwise gaunts will do.

And Carnifexes have a 50% chance to fail anyway. And you can equip your psychers with shadowsof the warp.

So pretty pretty please. Stop whining. Please.

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. Necrons are another thing, though.

Whining?

Well, I guess the Rune Priest can be transported in a Rhino and after moving 12'',
he can cast that power from inside the transport.
That's pretty nasty and the Genestealers won't help here.

wuestenfux wrote:Whining?

Well, I guess the Rune Priest can be transported in a Rhino and after moving 12'',
he can cast that power from inside the transport.
That's pretty nasty and the Genestealers won't help here.

True, but even with careful planning, that guy won't nail more than one carnifex. And then he is driving towards your tyranid force.
I don't think that's a bad deal after all.

I just think that this power is not nearly as game breaking as the lash.

Greets
Schepp himself

Horst wrote:Well, if thats actually how it works, I hereby state that I will NOT be playing against space wolves players making use of this rule.. and I will try to get everyone in my area to do the same.

if these bastards have VORTEX grenades, I say we shun all space wolf players.... no other army has such a rule, where models are "instantly" removed, unless its in very unlikely curcumstances, like orks...

Space wolf players will soon learn that they can either A) get a real army that isn't OTT cheesy, or B) play only in tournaments, because nobody wants to play them if they can help it.

Oh boo fecking hoo. Is Mr Horst feeling unhappy because the new SW dex has a psychic power that looks super bent?

Well Im sorry that the designers decided to write this rule. Im sure they should have nerfed the codex severely so you can get your rocks off beating SW player's armies. Its not like the Rune Priests have been useless (at least in my area) since 5th started, and even then since 4th ed....

So, would you shun people who play jetlock councils, allocation nob bikers, TH/SS termies, Lash princes etc, and all that other pretty cheesey stuff? I think not And how does 1 psychic power suddenly make a whole book "cheesey"? Im curious, explain the thought process here, that one thing makes a dex bent, when in fact, players DONT HAVE TO take a Rune Priest

So tell me, why is a 2 wound, I4 MEQ character, whose supposedly beardy psychic power suddenly better than these? A power that can be shut down in a myriad of ways, the main two being Runes of Warding and Psychic Hoods, which IMHO, players should be taking anyways for utility purposes.
Gift of chaos removes models on a (toughness?) test, Old Zogwort with "you're a squig" power? Look familiar?

I know this is the internet, and ok, its meant for bitching and stuff, but come on. I thought people might man up, quite complaining and as normal, develop ways to counter the JoTWW, but I forgot, the haters just want something else to cry about...

I guess the designers needed to include a good reason for playing SW.
This power and the cool looking models will convince players to start SW.

What to, and not to, worry about.

What to worry about:

Yes, you can have 4 priests with this power. The rule for no-duplicates doesn't say that the same psychic power or piece of wargear can't show up twice, it says no two can be exactly the same. So if Rune Priest A picks line of death and psychic power x, and rune priest B picks line of death, psychic power x, and a meltabomb, this is perfectly fine.

Yes, it removes from play with no chance whatsoever to save, and eternal warrior does not apply. And it seems to kill models hit, not just enemies. Not sure on that one though, might need an faq [for all the good that does]. Think RAW is actual models, though.


Things you don't need to worry about:

Lucas costs almost 150 points and is an upgrade to blood claws. The ways he can die at range or when fighting useless things are myriad, and depends after that on a roll-off. I don't expect he'll be a problem.

Rune Priest force weapons do not remove from play - they cause instant death like any other force weapon. They do, however, wound daemons on a 2+ and provide the priest with a better version of a psychic hood [cancel on 4+, rather than beat opponent's roll + ld]. The special character's cancels psychic powers on a 3+.


And the power is ineffective against vehicles, so mechanized armies still have some good defense against it.


My question is this: Lesser, Greater, and Prince variety daemons don't have the "daemon" rule. Do they count for the 2+ wounding?

I think the simple solution to a rune priest is a lascannon (or something similar) in his face. But damn that powers good :/

This isn't fantasy, the runepriests won't be standing alone hiding in woods, they are in units, lascannon to his face = lascannon to grey hunters face

Can you snipe with this power? It is the actual models in the line that are removed?

Illumini wrote:Can you snipe with this power? It is the actual models in the line that are removed?

Yes. Ork Boss coming your way armed with a Klaw in a mob of 20+? JAWS! No more Boss.

Schepp himself wrote:And Carnifexes have a 50% chance to fail anyway. And you can equip your psychers with shadowsof the warp.

Really? I mean. . . Really?

That power is only usable by Hive Tyrants, and even so . . . it helps SW more than the Tyranids.

And no other rolls needed than the psychic test? This sounds insane, shouldn't be hard to get some nice lines where you just blow through lots of expensive and important models, seems like another nail in the coffin for anything not mech. As people have said, nids are screwed against this, same with deamons. Yes, it also works against super-units like nob-bikers and to a degree seer-council (snipe the farseer), but it just destroys other armies entirely this sounds worse than lash

It should have been made as a really strong template or some such instead of a death beam, which actually matches other rules that already exist in the game.

So, would you shun people who play jetlock councils, allocation nob bikers, TH/SS termies, Lash princes etc, and all that other pretty cheesey stuff? I think not And how does 1 psychic power suddenly make a whole book "cheesey"? Im curious, explain the thought process here, that one thing makes a dex bent, when in fact, players DONT HAVE TO take a Rune Priest

yea, none of those cheesy things which you mentioned break the game's mechanics. sure, they are good at what they do, but where does the rule "LOLZ REMOV EVARYTHANG!!!" exist except in vortex grenades? all the other super powerful units rely on game mechanics that have counters (reliable ones), or limits.

its slowed. I sympathize with the people who play space wolves, because this will generate a lot of hate for them, because the guy who wrote the codex is an idiot.

Keep the initiative test that models take when they get hit. This is not LOLZ REMOAV EVRYTHNGI!. Lowly guardsmen will survive in 50% of cases, every single Eldar unit will survive on 83.4% of cases...hell, even Orks have 33% chance of survival. Yes, it is good against Carnifexes (Carnifices?), but the nids will get a new codex soon anyway, it seems.

Something to consider is having a team of Jump Infantry to jump the Rune Priest with: Assault Marines, Raptors, Storm Boyz, Tau Jet-Pack Battlesuits, Shining Spears, whatever. Jump Infantry and Jetbikes aren't affected. Ditto for vehicles, and stuff with high Initiative like Genestealers are still going to murder Space Wolves.

Given that the power requires a line of sight and doesn't affect vehicles, block the Rune Priest with a tank. Better yet, run him over with a Deff Rolla.

Me, I'm planning on finally slapping up a Sorcerer on a Disc of Tzeentch - Jump Infantry and the kind of close combat power a Rune Priest just doesn't have.

Just adding a bit here, but the Rune Priest will be more of threat than a Grey Hunter. I currently run mine in Artificer Armor (More expensive/Less useful than Terminator Armor) for a 2+ save. (I like to keep my models WYSIWIG, and that's what he's wearing.) Rune Priests in the new codex (as well as the old) can wear Terminator armor. You might want to keep that in mind for your target eradication plans.

That having been said, unless you're playing one of TFG's running any old model/shot glass as counts as Rune Priest, he's going to stick out like a rampaging Dreadnought. Do yourself a favor and keep vulnerable units out of his range, and target him the way you would any other priority target. Most of the armies I face will have him out in turn 1 or 2 if that's what they decide to do.

As for Lukas, he's only in Power Armor. Again, if you're manning (or womanning, as the case may be) up up to play some 40K, then you're likely planning on killing tons of MEQ's. Most likely at a distance. For the more assaulty armies, don't use your heavy hitters to take this down. Send in the cheapest plausible unit to go at it in CC. It looks like a great job for gretchin. Failing to be able to do that, just avoid it.

Sheesh, I can't believe that after years of the Wolves getting beat down through fourth edition, seeing some limited viability in fifth (Rhinos for 50 pts/Razorbacks at 70) that I'm having to explain how to kill my own forces to a bunch of nervous Nancies. Suck it up, and roll some dice, people.

Njal is a 250+ point character that makes him easy to pop with a LC or something.
If he is in a Squad he will bee a 500 point Bullet Magnet, I hope he likes Pie

Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models

I guess jump infantry are fine as far as RAW goes
I think dante will be in the sky with a chappy and the death company while playing SW

Daemon armies are going to be in trouble because he can hit them right after they deep strike (poor plague bearers). Also daemons are going to have a fun time killing Lukas, unless they are tzeentch, but that is the name of the game. I can see mono nurgle lists having a hard time against SW in the near future. I2 on everything really bites. Even GUOs are removed 50% of the time

Everyone that is overreacting should wait to read the codex before they continue to wail unecessarily. Seriously, this thread is ridiculous. If you cant figure out how to deal with one psychic power and one BLOOD CLAW UPGRADE CHARACTER that is expensive, 2W, and capped at LD8, then you should just stop playing 40K altogether.

As always, we need to see the rule first...

But I've heard a fair amount of correlation from different sources that it does kill the model it touches, doesn't allow any save, etc. etc.

IMO, this is a bad rule. I think all the "hey, MAN UP" guys are missing the point here... YES there are ways to deal with it. SURE there are models that will laugh it off. NO one single power doesn't break a whole Codex, or game system, or whatever.

The problem is that this rule strikes me as just being a "bad idea." The scale of this rule is off, it's too "all or nothing." This leads to a rocks-paper-scissors effect that's really unfun to play.

Sure, there will always be some of that... But you want to try to build the rules so it's not as pronounced. I feel like this rule fails at that. It creates a situation where any low I army is just DONE, and any high I army is laughing at the 400 points mostly wasted.

i'm not complaining about lukas... I never really was. nobody is going to take him, he's far too expensive and its really easy to ensure your special characters don't get in base to base with him.

my whole problem is that its a straight "removed from play" if you fail your I test. that is completely unique to the space wolf codex, and its not a good rule. at all. the whole point of invulnerable saves is to always be able to take them. sure, necrons get around it, but they have fluff to back that up. librarians can disrupt it, sure, but its still there. this is the only ranged power in the game that nullifies invulnerable saves, ignores eternal warrior, and allows for sniping of characters.

a ranged power that snipes eternal warriors and instantly kills them. a VINDICARE ASSASSIN doesn't have that kind of power. why should a space wolf psyker? If they want to give them powers, give them some crazy close combat enhancing powers. something to go with fluff. give them shamanistic powers (like their other powers, which are JUST as broken). but this one power makes no sense.

Fluff wise, I really don't get why Space Wolves would have one of the most powerful psychic abilities in the game. Don't Eldar or some other races have far stronger reputations as being far better psykers.

I think whoever wrote it just had a hard on for the special character they wrote and decided to give it abilities outside what already exists. Common beginner writing error often called "Mary Sue".

Lets get some facts straight.

First, the Jaws of the World Wolf is a general SW psychic power, meaning any SW psyker can have it. It is a 24" shooting power that emanates in a straight line. All models touched by this line must pass an I test or be removed from play. Monstrous creatures get a +1 to this roll. This will allow sniping specific models if you are able to aim it correctly. There are no saves, since it does not cause a wound, but it can be stopped by a psychic hood or other similar means. Removed from play does not mean there is no kill point as the model removed is not 'killed'. It is not the product of a 'common writing error' or someone having a hard on for a special character. It fits well within established SW fluff as the Rune Priest invokes the power of the World Wolf, the earth cracks open, and the affected model(s) falls into the crevice.

Lukas' power, known as The Last Laugh, represents the detonation of a stasis bomb that has been implanted in place of his secondary heart, which was ripped out by a Dark Eldar warlord. Dodgy fluff aside, this is implemented in game by all models in base contact with Lukas when he is killed if the SW player wins a roll off on a d6. Lukas is a 2W upgrade to a unit of Blood Claws, which are a WS3 BS3 troop unit. The unit he is with is capped at LD8 as a result of another of his special rules. He does have a special defense against shooting. I would not recommend tank shocking him with anything important.

The amount of false information and unecessary fear in this thread is ridiculous. Neither of these powers are game breaking. The SW codex is written around the idea that their characters are epic in the style of Beowulf or Ogier the Dane, their powers reflect this idea, as do their point values. If you stack your army with powerful characters and unit upgrades, which is entirely possible, you will be forced to rely on those characters to carry the game because the remainder of your army will be small even if you fill it with cheap 15pt Grey Hunters.

Lets all take a deep breath. The codex is actually well written IMO, the army does have some significant drawbacks, and it is sufficiently different from the 'standard' marine codex to achieve new playstyles and unique army builds. Lets give it 6 months and see how the metagame evolves before we all lose our minds and ragequit.

no.

edit -

Yes, I know it won't be that bad. I just do not agree with the fact that the power exists outside of any current rules for warhammer 40,000.

JotWW is less powerful than Lash.

Why? Because 50% or more of the time the majority of armies ignore it completely.

With Lash, you get lumped into a ball or pulled out of cover and vaporized.

With JotWW you allocate (psychic shooting attack, folks, all rules apply) hits and roll a 4+.

Mech completely cock blocks it, and the majority of MCs laugh 5/6 times.

I really don't see the hysteria.

sourclams wrote:

With JotWW you allocate (psychic shooting attack, folks, all rules apply) hits and roll a 4+.

This may be true. I didn't much like reading it as it seemed like you could snipe models.

But then again, something like a battle cannon will "wound models covered on a 2+" and of course it doesn't mean those SPECIFIC models. So as long as it can't snipe, it's really not that amazing. In MOST situations, it will kill a few models per shot - something a power like Smite could easily do any day of the week. Hell depending on the unit targetted, a Primaris Psyker can potentially do way more damage, especially with "Fire on My Target" orders.

Agreed, the sniping part is the worst, without it, it is only really powerful against nids and deamons

Phryxis wrote:As always, we need to see the rule first...

But I've heard a fair amount of correlation from different sources that it does kill the model it touches, doesn't allow any save, etc. etc.

I've had my own eyeballs on the copy of the actual codex released to my FLGS, spent a lot of time staring at that specific power, and I can confirm that 4square's quote of the rule on page 2 of this thread is verbatim the actual text. Kills models, no saves, initiative test, ignores terrain.

I also agree that this isn't a game-breaker. It feels unusually OTT powerful for the points, and it may have an effect on the recent trend toward big expensive uber-characters and "zilla" variant armies (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), but no reason to pack up your models and quit.

[edit] and, hey, I just realized that jump infantry and jetbikes are immune. So give your DP wings, your farseer a bike, or take Shrike instead of Vulcan and it's no problem.

Witzkatz wrote:Keep the initiative test that models take when they get hit. This is not LOLZ REMOAV EVRYTHNGI!. Lowly guardsmen will survive in 50% of cases, every single Eldar unit will survive on 83.4% of cases...hell, even Orks have 33% chance of survival. Yes, it is good against Carnifexes (Carnifices?), but the nids will get a new codex soon anyway, it seems.

Well, I guess the new codex will not counter this power.
Carnifexes are screwed anyway.

Horst wrote:my whole problem is that its a straight "removed from play" if you fail your I test. that is completely unique to the space wolf codex, and its not a good rule. at all. the whole point of invulnerable saves is to always be able to take them. sure, necrons get around it, but they have fluff to back that up. librarians can disrupt it, sure, but its still there. this is the only ranged power in the game that nullifies invulnerable saves, ignores eternal warrior, and allows for sniping of characters.

In rebuttal from the Jaws of the World Wolf and MC's thread,

Gwar! wrote:There is:
Gift of Chaos
Boon of Mutation (Omg, its a 5th ed codex!!!)
Lukas the Trickster
Jaws of the World Wolf
Shock Attack Gunz going RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
Old Zogwort going Squigify

It's not unprecedented. By no means is it a common ability, but other folk can do it. Heck, Ol' Zogwort even gets a new squig when he sends your model to the removed from play. Should I never play against Orks?

Sit down with the codex, and try to make the cheesiest build you can. Proxy it against your army, and I think you'll have a fairly easy time taking out the 20 or so models that are on the board.

Ending this post before I get myself into trouble with the Mods.

Flavius Infernus:

Wings don't make Daemon Princes Jump Infantry: they're still Monstrous Creatures that act like Jump Infantry for the purposes of movement if they're equipped with Wings. Ditto for Chaos Lords and Sorcerers equipped with Wings: they'd still be Infantry and able to enter transports.

Well, if the power touches an enemy squad.
Can the opponent decide what models to remove?

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out how this new power absolutely rapes Tau.

keezus wrote:I'm surprised nobody has pointed out how this new power absolutely rapes Tau.

Let us participates at your insight.
Fire Warriors are dispensible.
Crisis should be kept away from the Rune Priest and
Broadsights are deployed in the back field anyway.

The biggest vulnerability to the Tau that I see are to the infiltrators. Just be careful where you put them, and you should be just fine; provided you're playing tactically sound. If you line your forces before the Rune Priest, then their extinction must have been for the Greater Good.

This style of weapon isn't unique to space woofs, it is just done in a much more effective manner than in other armies. Daemons and Chaos marines get a power that removes a model from play on a toughness test. However, this power costs 30 points and has a 6 inch range and only effects 1 model... And from what i hear this power is free for space woofs? Someone needs to rethink the point costs on psychic powers...

crisis/stealth teams are immune to this rule anyway... they are jetpack infantry.

Ok, if someone's going to say my winged princes and chaos lords aren't jump infantry, then I will refuse to make any dangerous terrain tests for starting/ending my moves in difficult terrain, because only jump infantry make those tests. My models are apparently monsters and infantry, respectively, that just MOVE like jump infantry.

I will get one, or I will get the other. I will not suffer the penalties of both.


By the way, the CSM power is made at the start of the turn and has only a 2 inch range. If it was during the shooting phase like it used to be it'd be much more useful.

Except that by the rules for Wings you would have to make dangerous terrain tests because models with Wings move like they were Jump Infantry. Moving like Jump Infantry involves taking dangerous terrain tests as appropriate.

Speaking of errors with the rules, the Gift of Chaos does indeed require casting at the beginning of the Chaos Space Marine player's turn, but the range is 6".

He's a daemon ie: no simpathy.
I tests are kak easy to make, I have to agree with shep on this. Unless your'e a 'fex, stop complaining. Its no more broken than lash usually is.

I have been doing a little research and I do not think the line of death is that useful or for that fact a lot of the other powers.

Eldar Farseerer
-Runes of Warding: All enemy Psychic are made with 3d6 and a 12+ suffers the perils of the warp

Deamon Hunters
-Grey Knights Aegis Armor: Everyone has a Psychic Hood
-Inquisitor’s Null Rod: Me and my Unit is IMMUNE to All Psychic Powers
-DH Unguents of Warding: get a 4+ save vs. Psychic Powers
-Culexus Temple Assassin: lest start with Soulless
>Soulless: Any Unit within 12” has a Leadership of 7 [It has a LD of 10]
>Psyk-Out Grenades: Range 6” if hit Target rolls 2d6 vs. LD, for every point of failure the Model takes 1 Wound [Save as normal]
>Life Drain: The Psychic Model in Close Combat makes Opposed 2d6+Ld vs. if the Assassin wins the Psychic Model takes 1 Wounds [NO SAVE]

Nids
-Psychic Scream: All models within 18” take a -1 to LD for every model with Psychic Scream
-Shadow in the Warp: All enemy Psychic Models roll 3d6 and discard the lowest.

Marines
-Psychic Hood

Imperial Guard
>Psychic Hood

Orcs
-They don’t Care {You popped my Dred, now eat 30 Boyz}

Tau
-You got within 24” How?

Nurglitch wrote:Except that by the rules for Wings you would have to make dangerous terrain tests because models with Wings move like they were Jump Infantry. Moving like Jump Infantry involves taking dangerous terrain tests as appropriate.

Speaking of errors with the rules, the Gift of Chaos does indeed require casting at the beginning of the Chaos Space Marine player's turn, but the range is 6".

Did they make it 6"? Ah. Well, still, I'd accept 2" if I could cast during the shooting phase, and use my bike or rhino or whatever to approach closer.

So you're saying once again chaos gets all the drawbacks and half the benefits for their wargear?

Yep. Definitely playing counts-as SW instead. It'll be nice, having an army with special rules rather than special penalties.

yea, none of those cheesy things which you mentioned break the game's mechanics. sure, they are good at what they do, but where does the rule "LOLZ REMOV EVARYTHANG!!!" exist except in vortex grenades? all the other super powerful units rely on game mechanics that have counters (reliable ones), or limits.

its slowed. I sympathize with the people who play space wolves, because this will generate a lot of hate for them, because the guy who wrote the codex is an idiot.

First of all- There is an Initiative test involved. This is not LOLZ REMOAV EVARYTHANG!!!! Its fail and be removed from play. Guard have 50% chance of survival, marines 66% and for marine commanders, higher. Most Eldar and DE units will only fail ona 6, which is fail for everyone.Sure Nidzilla, Crons and Tau will be taking it up th eass, but hey, Nidzilla kinda deserve it in my view, and both crons and Tau have been taking it in the ass since 5th ed came around. Second, there are counters in that most armies have anti psychic units or capabilities. You could try using them. As for precedents, like I said, Old Zogworts youre a squig power, and gift of chaos remove a model with no save as I recall. Just that JoTWW does it at longer range.

Like I said, its better to get on with it, and develop couinters to it, rather than mope about how cheesey and broken it is IMO.

Spellbound:

Well, actually what you can do is take a Jump Pack on your Chaos Lord or Chaos Sorcerer and completely ignore this Space Wolf psychic power. Speaking of ignoring this power, did you know what a Daemon Prince, Wings or no, is only removed on a 16d roll of 6? They're I5 and Monstrous Creatures. The sky ain't falling down.

The Gift of Chaos may only have a range of 6" and must be used at the start of the turn, but it can be used in close combat, which the Jaws of the World Wolf can be, affects everything with a T characteristic, can be used to place a Spawn model for free (which is good in 2/3 of games, and you don't have to place it in the 1/3 of games that are kill-points) and if you have the Mark of Tzeentch, it can be cast twice! And the model that can carry it will be better in combat than the Rune Priest. Even an Aspiring Sorcerer is able to defeat a Rune Priest in close combat.

I rather like the way this power gives Chaos Space Marine players a reason to take Jump Packs instead of Wings, because previously taking Wings gave you all of the benefits of Jump Packs (12" move, etc), with few drawbacks (not being able to fit in transports, etc).

I'm glad you're going to be playing 'counts-as' Space Wolves though, as more variety in armies can only be a good thing.

I think the point that people are getting at is that killing a big model on a 1/6 chance still represents far, far greater killing power than nearly any other.

Nearly any other is right: two Gifts of Chaos would be more likely to off a Daemon Prince than a Jaws of the World Wolf. All the more reason to take a Chaos Lord or a Chaos Sorcerer I guess. After all, isn't the argument for taking a Daemon Prince over these choices that a Chaos Sorcerer or Chaos Lord may be much more easily killed?

Sooo... you can have 4 of these right? Since SWs can have 4 HQ slots (or rather 2 choices per slot)?

Yup, you can take 4.
Think of them as very weak but destructive and costly KP's

I think there's some debate over whether you can have two Rune Priests with the same psychic powers, let alone four of them. That said, pretty please take four of them.

Today I went in GW to check for myself about Runepriests having the same psychic powers
It say's no 2 HQs can have the same psychic power combos. But for 50pts each they can pick a second psychic power and thus don't have the same combo.

So to have 4 Runepriests with this - 24" roll a 6 auto kill, initiative test failure kills too - power means it'd cost 600pts.

I don't even 1 Runepriest with this power by itself (100 pts) could make up it's point costs unless the army is elite or lines up their squads one infront of the other. I'm gonna try it out and report back.

Tarondor:

The debate, if I can call it that with a straight face, is here if you want to weigh in.

Mind you, these debates only really come up when there's some advantage to be gained from some difference of interpretation in the rules, and since the Rune Priests don't really confer an advantage under any reasonable interpretation, it probably won't torment us the way that some others have.

You seem to forget that the psychological effect of this power
eventually affects the way the enemy plays.
He/She might react to this power during the game changing the tactics.
This might be beneficiary to the SW player.

I can't find any mention of 'Removed from play' in the actual main rulebook, is it even addressed? Are we all just assuming that means no cover, armour or invuln. save? Anyone got a page reference?

Removed from play is just that, removed from the table and any consideration for kill points. No saves.

Tarondor wrote:I can't find any mention of 'Removed from play' in the actual main rulebook, is it even addressed? Are we all just assuming that means no cover, armour or invuln. save? Anyone got a page reference?

Armandloft wrote:Removed from play is just that, removed from the table and any consideration for kill points. No saves.

To discuss this a bit further, I would like to agree with Armandloft that the term "removed from play" is pretty straight forward: the model is physically removed from the table and is a casualty.

However, to discuss the reason why there are not saves of any kind: saving throws are taken in reaction to wounds. The only time the rules tell us to roll a save is if a model takes a wound, or if a vehicle receives a penetrating or glancing hit. Therefore, if the game presents a different mechanic for doing damage that does not cause wounds, it does not trigger saving throws.

Mechanics such as Gift of Chaos, Boon of Mutation, and Jaws of the World Wolf trigger just such an event.

Other mechanics that have alternate rules for damage (such as Mind War, or a Neural Disruptor, for some examples) can still allow saving throws despite not using the standard Strength vs. Toughness mechanic because the end result of the damaging roll is wounds caused.

Yeah I was really just playing devils advocate for someone to give me a 100% solid answer that everyone would agree on or for there to me actual mention in the rules.

@willydstyle: Your answer is pretty much textbook (despite it being in a book =P) and I doubt anyone could argue against your explanation. Unless ofcourse anyone wants to try.

But at the end of the day this rule is being over-hyped by everyone, it'll not be as useful as thought.

There's never going to be a 100% answer that everyone will agree on, and someone (often many people) will argue against the simplest and most airtight explanation.

But back on topic, has anyone else noticed that the Jaws of the World Wolf has complementary powers? Tempest's Wrath, for example, affects the models that Jaws of the World Wolf affects.

Fury of the World Spirits is just another Doombolt/Smite Sith-lightening power.

Storm-Caller actually looks useful, since it doesn't look like Space Wolves can afford meat-shields.

Thunderclap is an anti-horde power and looks like it could kill an unlucky Rune Priest - he has to touch it and it affects anything touching the blast marker. But if its a psychic shooting attack, isn't there the possibility that the blast marker might scatter?

Living Lightening is random, and such random powers are usually rejected by players.

Murderous Hurricane is a discount version of an Eldar power nobody takes, Eldritch Storm.

Tempest's Wrath, for example, affects the models that Jaws of the World Wolf affects.

I think you meant to say doesn't affect, which it does to an extent 9non-skimmer vehicles could care less though). And yeah I can see it being somewhat handy in a metagame filled with skimmers and daemons.

Fury of the World Spirits is just another Doombolt/Smite Sith-lightening power.

Pretty much I guess, gives up some ap2 killy for easy moral test causing and more shots. Better range and it might have been useful.

Storm-Caller actually looks useful, since it doesn't look like Space Wolves can afford meat-shields.

5+ cover save is ok. 6" range is not great though. Still worthwhile though.

Thunderclap is an anti-horde power and looks like it could kill an unlucky Rune Priest - he has to touch it and it affects anything touching the blast marker. But if its a psychic shooting attack, isn't there the possibility that the blast marker might scatter?

For one, it says enemy models under the marker, so rune priest and friendlies are immune. For two, yes we are back to deciding what shooting rules apply to shooting powers that work differently then a standard shooting attack. Thanks Phil. For three, how it works is almost moot becuase it is a garbage power. It makes nurgles rot look awesome. No one will take it.

Living Lightening is random, and such random powers are usually rejected by players.

Lootas are random also but no one takes them... This is unlimited range autocannon in an army that wants to crack open transports early. I like it, YMMV.

Murderous Hurricane is a discount version of an Eldar power nobody takes, Eldritch Storm.

Naw. This is the actual horde killer, not that trash Thunderclap. 10-11 average hits and I get to force more kills if they move next turn. Handy against hordes -- too bad few people play hordes anymore. Maybe the Nid codex will change that though.

Nurglitch wrote:There's never going to be a 100% answer that everyone will agree on, and someone (often many people) will argue against the simplest and most airtight explanation.

But back on topic, has anyone else noticed that the Jaws of the World Wolf has complementary powers? Tempest's Wrath, for example, affects the models that Jaws of the World Wolf affects.

Fury of the World Spirits is just another Doombolt/Smite Sith-lightening power.

Storm-Caller actually looks useful, since it doesn't look like Space Wolves can afford meat-shields.

Thunderclap is an anti-horde power and looks like it could kill an unlucky Rune Priest - he has to touch it and it affects anything touching the blast marker. But if its a psychic shooting attack, isn't there the possibility that the blast marker might scatter?

Living Lightening is random, and such random powers are usually rejected by players.

Murderous Hurricane is a discount version of an Eldar power nobody takes, Eldritch Storm.

You want to know the one power you missed that absolutely destroys? Tempests Wrath. Oh hi Mechdar, Jetbike Spam, Jetcouncils, Valk / Vend. Spam, BA and DE! Yeah, don't go 24" within this guy.

Living Lighting + Saga of the Beast Slayer + Choser of the Slain. Hi guys! I'm the unlimited range BS5 with rerolls guy that gets D6 ST7 attacks! Yep say bye to your dreds!

Murderous Hurricane isn't bad for sure, go use it against fast assault armies and Difficult / Dangerous Terrain Win! Can you say orks will hate you when they have to roll 30 dice with 1's causings wounds. Hell, EVERYTHING will hate you! Even 10 man squads will lose at least one wound to this if not more! 30 man squads should lose 5! Not bad at all methinks.

winterman:

You're right: I made an error. Still, interesting to see those complementary powers though: makes for some interesting strategic decisions, particularly in composing tournament armies.

Fury of the World Spirits would be better if, like Doombolt it had the 18" or combination with a Warptime-like power.

The 6" range of Storm-caller is pretty good. Nurgle's Rot is pretty awesome because it has a 6.5"-7" radius, and can be used in close combat. That makes it considerably more effective than a psychic shooting power with a 5" blast marker. Plus it tends to come attached to a model that's one heck of a better fighter than a Rune Priest. The Storm-caller is rather more like a psychic Kustom Force Field though.

Speaking of Orks, Lootas aren't random. A full sized unit would be impressive even if they only had Heavy 1 each, becaue there's 15 of them. The random extra shots almost make up for their delicate nature and Heavy Weapons. The Rune Priest doesn't have that reliable lower bound, so one S7 hit is pretty unlikely to harm an AV12 Dreadnought: you'd need a 5 for a glancing hit. Plus the AP isn't good. Might be good against mobs of Killer Kans and other stuff that Space Wolves don't want to charge into. Does the Chooser of the Slain improve the Rune Priest's BS to 5?

Murderous Hurricane might work better if it had a longer range than 18", or if it affected vehicles. Otherwise the unit can sit for a turn and simply shoot up the Rune Priest and his unit. Even Ork Boyz have Shootas. Still, at least it does more than just act as another gun.

Is this a troll Post??

Sorry I did not read the whole post but and if this is a repeat sorry, but this does not say anything about models in close combat, so if you have something that is in CC with one of your units you can snipe them out... interesting hu????

I guess this power is used in the shooting phase.
If a model is locked in cc, it cannot shoot and so this power can eventually not be used in this situation.

According to the compilation thread it's a psychic shooting attack. So a model is safe its Jump Infantry, Jetbike, Vehicle, mounted in a transport, in close combat, or the Rune priest is in close combat.

Sorry let me clearify this, lets say you have a fex locked in CC with blood claws durring the shooting phase have your RP Shoot the fex to free up your Blood Claws.

OR

IF something is holding an objective while in CC you can shoot them off the objective now even if they are in CC.

Interesting Hu?

Dr_Chin:

It's a psychic shooting attack, that means you can't shoot models in close combat, or use it when the Rune Priest is in close combat, not without specific provision for doing so in the rules for the psychic power.

I got ya but one could argue that they drew an indiscriminate straight line and opps that model that is in CC just happened to be in the way, so what then???

Do you get what I am saying, I also don’t have the book with me but I remember is does say it ignores certain things like terrain etc.. I dont think it says that it ignores things in CC.

Sorry but its going to happen and this rule will come up, again thank you GW for a clear cut rule.

but they aren't drawing an indiscriminate line.

just like flamers, you cannot cover your own models with it, and you cannot target units in hand to hand.

Then the psychic shooting attack rule against shooting into close combat comes into play and the players get on with the game. I'd imagine if a 24" line cannot be drawn without intersecting a close combat, then the power cannot be used.

It does say models it does not say enemy models, and you cannot tell me that this rule will not come up and come up a lot, there is nothing that says it cannot touch its own model, and this is not a template weapon this is a new and there is nothing that says you can or cannot I would think that since GW did not clarify only enemy models I think they plan on people doing this.

If you want to get technical how wide is the line drawn? Oh it does not specify, an inch is huge if we are talking 1/16" of an inch, get what I am saying.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nurglitch

IF that is the case then this is a less effective weapon then I though, esp against Daemon bombs.

there is also no rule that says I can't slap my wang down on the table and count it as a twin linked venom cannon.

the game is permissive. you can't just do things because it doesn't say you can't.

Horst
First If you have a twin linked wang I would get that checkout lol

I am just saying this is going to come up a lot and warhammer players will take advantage of the lack of rules, I would like some clarification before an argument starts.

Necron armys are so f***** against this type or power.

Poor Necron warriors 2/6 of passing LOL.

Another good question would be how tall is the line also does it reach the 3rd or 5th floor if someone is in a building? It does say it ignores terrain, so that does mean that it treats all levels as being on the bottom floor? hummmm? Interesting!

They did play test this right?

Dr_Chin:

I'm going to say something rude, but I really don't mean it to be rude: go get your rulebook and read it. Carefully, front to back, and make careful note of the rules of psychic shooting attacks, and buildings.

You are not being rude I am just looking for clarification and I don’t think there is one at this time:
Q. Do psychic shooting attacks grant cover saves?
A. Yes, as long as they cause wounds. Cover saves are taken against wounds caused by psychic shooting attacks, not against any other ‘weirder’ effects of the psychic power.

yes I know this attack does not offer a save.

Without having the book with me I think it states that it ignores terrain etc.. so this is one of the 'weirder' effects that needs to be addressed.
Think about it and I know roll off if there is a question about the rules, I think because this can make or break a game, there should be some clarification and I don’t think the basic rules address this.
Again how wide is the line also? I could be making mountains out of molehills but things are not defined as well as they should there will be issues.
OR
Maybe I am just thinking more in to this then I should, I tend to do this.

Why does everyone keep saying TH/SS termies are screwed? They are I4......Just strike at I1 in cc.

I don't know, Extenz. I just don't know.

As for the line, it should be a line of the smallest caliber. Otherwise, they'd have to produce a template to cover the 24"x2" 'line'. I figure that most will just use their measuring tape's edge for the line. I will likely be bringing a 24" piece of string.

I think that this will only come up frequently with players that don't know what the power does before the game starts. All others will be taking the Rune Priest off the table before it becomes an issue.

A line is a 2 dimensional vector between 2 points.

there is no width.

I am going to have a 24" length of string for just this purpose.

2nd post go!!!

The thing I find funny is that there are , in my opinion, far more effective powers then the "Line" Stuff that can seriously hurt/kill squads.

It wouldn't be the traditional hysteria if the psychic power was actually what it was feared to be...

I'm just going to do what I did in Fantasy when a magic attack was a straight line, take your measuringand turn it on its side and hold the end with your other hand. theres a slight curve but shouldn't bring up any issues really.

Nurglitch wrote:Then the psychic shooting attack rule against shooting into close combat comes into play and the players get on with the game. I'd imagine if a 24" line cannot be drawn without intersecting a close combat, then the power cannot be used.

The problem I see is that the typical mechanics for shooting are being ignored...namely in selecting a target.

"As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24" away. This line may pass through terrain. Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test (see Characteristic Tests in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook). If the model fails the test, it is removed from play. Monstrous creatures may subtract one from their dice roll due to their tremendous size and strength, though remember that the roll of a 6 is always a failure."

No where does it say I select a target (reminds me of 3rd edition spore mines). It simply states draw a line from the rune priest to any spot 24" away. I don't even have to hit any models if I don't want to.

The shooting rules specify that I can only target enemy units and I cannot target enemy units in CC. These rules affect only target aquisition for shooting attacks. However, JOTWW doesn't seam to require a target .

While JOTWW doesn't require a target, there are the units which are immune. Also, since I've bee told it is a shooting psychic attack, it can't be used against models in CC.

I suppose, if you really wanted to, you could tempt a Perils of the Warp check and draw the line at nothing; it just seems a bit too counter productive.

I am still very confused about this rule, its a shooting attack that does not target anything so what am I shooting at? I dont play SW I play Chaos but my son does he is 11 and explaining how this works is not clear at all, no matter how many times I read the codex (which I have a copy of). Again because this rule effects ALL MODELS (caps lock cruse control for the awsome!) if it did not state that I would also agree that this can not be "Shot", "Directed", "What ever" in to CC.

Going off of the rules as reiterated on the forum, not having the book anywhere near me for verification's sake, it doesn't effect vehicles or jump infantry. Since it is described as a shooting attack, I would gather that it cannot be used upon models in CC.

Consider it to be like a flamer attack for 'targeting'.

Shep wrote:

Horst wrote:it has a 33% chance of killing all ork and necron HQ's...

it has a 33% chance of killing a nightbringer.

its just stupid.

A tie on a stat test is a pass. Necron Lords and nob+ orks have I3. Thats 50%

What about some Eldar w/ I7? Do they automatically Pass?

The best you can do on a characteristic test is 6, so an I7 Eldar character would still buy it on a roll of 6, if not equipped with Swooping Hawk Wings or a Jetbike.

Although, one would wonder why they don't just treat it like BS6+.

Cause...they don't want it to get complicated...
You know those charts for BS, no body uses those anymore, people would be confused if we had to refer back to them for BS6+

But BS10 would be awesome. Like when Counter Strike first came out. Take the AK-47, aiming for the crotch, going full auto and getting a headshot...

I thought it was rather simple:

BS5 = 2+
BS6 = 2+/6+ re-roll
BS7 = 2+/5+ re-roll
etc.

Plus kind of beautiful on Phoenix Lords like Fuegan, Maugan Ra, and Asurmen.

Pheon-wut?
Who uses those?
The last Pheonix Lord I saw was one with Sustained Assault.......now THAT was scary. THAT was a Pheonix Lord.

I use Maugan Ra all the time. He's quite good at blowing up most race's transports at range.

IMO, having the "removed from play" thing in anything other than a big-arse Apocalypse game is stupid. you could knock a charechter like Abbadon out in a simgle play, which is stupid. This had better be fixed in the new codex.

Eh, well the codex is finalized and printed already. It's been distributed to many game stores, but is awaiting its final distribution for sale. It's not going to be "fixed."

It doesn't need to be fixed.

Abaddon needs a 6 to fail. Rolling a 6 on Gift of Chaos would do the exact same thing, this is just less avoidable.

It still has weaknesses versus mechanized opponents.

Yup, it's not game-breaking at all, especially with the prevalence of mech as Spellbound pointed out. IC's usually have high Initiatives anyway, so it's not much of a problem.

@Spellbound:
I guess the issue we Gift of Chaos users have with it, is that is has 4 times the range, and is NOT used at the worst possible time (before movement).

So it not only has longer range, it has a longer reach coupled with movement.
Oh...and it's 'free'.

Well, you chaos players just have to be satisfied with expensive psykers who are marginally better in CC, have no psychic defense, and have to pay for your psychic powers. Suck it up! [/sarcasm]

YEA! why don't you take GW's advice and go make up your own rules.

Cause then all the other cry babies are like: "youz just TFG/WAAC player using new overpowered rulz".

Not everyone will be satisfied...and GW is a profit organization, of course there is codex creep...making you buy those minis.

Sanctjud wrote:@Spellbound:
I guess the issue we Gift of Chaos users have with it, is that is has 4 times the range, and is NOT used at the worst possible time (before movement).

So it not only has longer range, it has a longer reach coupled with movement.
Oh...and it's 'free'.

What is free about it?

Both Chaos Sorc and Rune Priests cost the same base.
Chas Sorce has to pay for Gift of Chaos.
Rune Priest...simply chooses it if I am not mistaken.

So...pay vs. not paying.
When one doesn't pay anything for something that's free...right?
Or does 0 points = not free?

Sanctjud wrote:Both Chaos Sorc and Rune Priests cost the same base.
Chas Sorce has to pay for Gift of Chaos.
Rune Priest...simply chooses it if I am not mistaken.

So...pay vs. not paying.
When one doesn't pay anything for something that's free...right?
Or does 0 points = not free?

You also get
+1 BS
+1 W
+1 I
+1 A
5+ Invurable Save

There's little use for all those stats if you have a 24" sniper power is there?

So what of stats, Rune Priests only cost half a HQ slot, have a variety of highly useful powers that augment the durability of the SW army to providing multiple platforms of pychic defense.

They are different, true.
If I see it from that perspective... the Sorc lord is in fact...paying for his stats when he gets a power.

While the wolf priest suffers stat loses but gains 2 powers for his troubles.

/shrug, at the end of the day the Sorc Lord is paying for Gift, which is inferior.
While Rune Priests get their superior sniper power for nothing except the base cost.

But it also ignores that DP/Sorcs don't buy gift anyway... When do people not get Lash or Warptime? :-/ Should SWs complain that they don't get Oblits? Chaos that they don't get speeders? Different lists and all. And Chaos is still one of the strongest books out there (albeit very mono-dimensional).

As to the rules discussion, I assume placing the line over models in combat would be the equivalent to what happens when a template covers models in combat (from scatter, etc.).

You can also take a Famialr that allows you to take and extra power
You can take Terminator Armor with a twin-linked for 15
You can take a personal Icon [Telport Homer]
You have the options to increase I, T, or Invunrable Saves
You get, Jump Pack/Wings, Bike or Demonic Steed


I get 2 Powers, it cost me 50 points to use 2 per turn
Terminator armor with a storm bolter cost 20
Tou get Telaport
I get Jump Pack or a Bike

I thnk things balance out well

I really don't see this as anything worse than instant death rules. I mean a str 10 large blast template on a squad is normally far worse then a line.

Familiar, to anything other than a Sor with MoT we have to pay for a second power, before paying a second power (and can't use 2 powers).

Terminator armor, whoop di do.
They are a little different though. Storm bolters work better at upper limits of range, while TL bolter is better closer up.

Personal icon is only good for lesser daemons (who most people don't like) and termy/oblits... SW get drop pods.

Options to increase those specific stats cost more points and also kills fluff in the most traditional sense for some armies.

The only difference is that we get wings...which means Sorc can get into rides with wings.
But it's generally moot as if he needs to use it, he'll most likely be alone, which is unhealthy.
The mounts are options, doesn't make them good.

Wolf Priest gets 2 powers, with out needing to pay to get a second one.
They have anti-pychic powers.
They get to ride pods.

__________________________

I'm not talking about the unit vs. unit.
I'm talking about the powers themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@warmasterscott:
Vortex is short ranged, can scatter badly.
Libby MUST be in terminator or a bike to shoot it on the move, and WHEN you roll box cars, you get to try and instant kill your own libby and then anyone else near him.

Jaws is twice the range, doesn't 'need' relentless to use, can snipe several models you don't like.

It's not to say the be all and end all, the other powers are awesome as well, esp. against many of the 'uber' squads around.

My only gripe was that it looks really wierd when you put Gift of Chaos next to Jaws and ask.... "hey...we go the God of pychic powers and stuff....why do we not rock as much as SW powers?"....which then leads into the whole Exedus of people going into count as mode...

When I say templates I mean like tanks, etc. I think this is being theory hammered into something much bigger than it is.

I think they should of at least capped it with 'suffers a wound that is treated as inflicting instant death'. Simply saying 'removes from play' is a bit harsh.

Please can someone explain to me:
is Njal like a special character librarian? -what unique abilities does he have?
and Who is Lukas? -what can he do?

Both are SW special characters. Both have cool, yet sometimes slowed, rules. This is now resulting in NERD RAAAAAAAAAAGGGGE!!!