Check out these photos of foam trays for Space Hulk:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555730

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555731

The foam inserts the person designed looks interesting, but since this person doesn't even have a functioning website, I'll assume that I made the best choice in purchasing from BattleFoam....

Mez

Hello Fellow Gamers<

My name is Romeo Filip. I am the owner of Battle Foam. Our website www.battlefoam.com has been live for over 8 months. We pride ourselves in being the first and only true custom foam cutting company in the miniature business.

That is why this thread really upsets me.

I must first point out that I am new to your forum. So please understand that I may not know some of your rules. I do know when I see a copy cat or as we call him, "bootleg artist" and that is what this person is.

This poster is actually named Bryan Wade. He is not a competitor since you need to compete to be a competitor. What Bryan Wade and his bootleg home business does is copy our ideas. (Space Hulk Trays as an example)

Battle Foam is the first and only producer of the Space Hulk foam trays. We also have a patent pending on foam cutting with our system and trade marks and copyrights on all items on our site to include the design of the Space Hulk tray kit. We hav been selling Space Hulk Foam Trays since August 28th on our site. We worked very carefully with the actual models and GW employees to design a layout that not only fits but protects.

This bootleg foam you are being pitched is exactly that. Be warned that not only will you not get your product from this person but if you are lucky enough to somehow get one from "PM"ing him it will probably not fit since the layout he has pictured has been tested and does not fit all the contents in the box.

I must stress that the second tray he advertises on these pictures will not hold all of the contents in the box. Trust me when I tell you this since I have already tested and retested the layout. His layout will not work!

Watch my video on YouTube on how to fit your items to see how difficult it is to actually fit the full contents in the box using a way larger cut out area designed by us in our tray. Follow link here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NuCHnZUBW4

I must also point out that this person Bryan Wade is not to be trusted. Be careful with your money fellow gamers. I only post on here to protect you. This person does not have employees, he does not have product, he does not own his equipment, and your money is not protected. His website was just recently updated with mostly fake information. Be careful!

Battle Foam has been in business for over 9 months. We were the first company to develope our Patented Foam cutting system. The Space Hulk foam tray can be found on our site for purchase and is available at this time.

As a gamer and business owner I know that we all have a passion for our little hobby. That is why my wife and I work so hard to produce great products. Don't be fooled by a bootleg artist like Bryan Wade and his games.

If any of you require custom cut foam for Space Hulk or any other items, please follow this link to our site.

www.battlefoam.com

If you are interested in the Space Hulk tray kit or just the troop tray please follow this link

http://battlefoam.com/catalog.php?category=66

They are available for purchase on our site now and have been for over 2 weeks.

We stand behind our quality and a full money back guarantee on all of our products. If at any time you are not satisfied you can exchange or return any of our items for a full refund.

I am sorry to all that attend this forum that my first post is so angry, but I must not only protect our company name, but you as gamers.

If you would like to contact me personally, please call or email us at the address and phone number below.

Battle Foam LLC.
1-877-336-3626
info@battlefoam.com

or

romeo@battlefoam.com

Hmmm - didn't get that far down in the post....

Begun, the Foam War has.

Mez

I do like Romeo and the service that battlefoam provides, but the rest of the posts in that thread do make a point. There's no "bootlegging" going on. There's no "copying". You can't patent an idea. The design is original and different from BF's. It's a competitor, and Romeo needs to let the quality of the product stand on it's own, instead of bad-mouthing his competition. It's just not good business. Let the consumers realize that it's a scam if it is one.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't buy from Battlefoam, but I think that Romeo jumped the gun a little, and I understand the replies he's been getting on that thread.

Chrispy wrote:I do like Romeo and the service that battlefoam provides, but the rest of the posts in that thread do make a point. There's no "bootlegging" going on. There's no "copying". You can't patent an idea. The design is original and different from BF's. It's a competitor, and Romeo needs to let the quality of the product stand on it's own, instead of bad-mouthing his competition. It's just not good business. Let the consumers realize that it's a scam if it is one.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't buy from Battlefoam, but I think that Romeo jumped the gun a little, and I understand the replies he's been getting on that thread.

Yeah, as a customer of Battlefoam, I have to agree. I don't like the tone or implication of the post.

Um, if you cannot patent an idea then what CAN you patent?

In all seriousness, I get what you were trying to say there. But you DO patent ideas. Seriously.

I have no IDEA if this usurper (sorry, I couldn't resist!) is violating anyone's IP (never thought I would be saying thout without referencing GW). I can understand Romeo being concerned. Maybe he came off a bit over the top there. Got a link to this thread so I can have a look? Or should I just search "Battlefoam maim burn kill"? lol

Oh, I was thinking there was an accompanying dakka thread. That's me and my reading again...

At any rate, it looks like the "bootleg" tray is of rather inferior quality. Look at how floppy the sides of the bottom tray are, that tells me how thin and flimsy they had to make it in order to fit the contents. BF trays are much firmer. Still, I think forcing everything to fit back into the SH box is really a bad design constraint. I mean, most people already have figure cases, which unlike a fancy cardboard box, have handles and straps for easy carrying. It simply doesn't make any sense not to carry SH in the same kind of case as you'd do your other minis.

Aside from all that, BF pulled a gigantic faux pas by openly violating the posting rules of another site to air out their grievances, and did so in a manner that makes them look immature and will cost them significant business from, among others, the users at BGG.

Yeah, does like he pissed some geeks off.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Aside from all that, BF pulled a gigantic faux pas by openly violating the posting rules of another site to air out their grievances, and did so in a manner that makes them look immature and will cost them significant business from, among others, the users at BGG.

I saw nothing immature at all in Romeo's post.

Stop being such a pessimist.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Aside from all that, BF pulled a gigantic faux pas by openly violating the posting rules of another site to air out their grievances, and did so in a manner that makes them look immature and will cost them significant business from, among others, the users at BGG.

I saw nothing immature at all in Romeo's post.

Stop being such a pessimist.

Really?

Battle Foam is the first and only producer of the Space Hulk foam trays.

I like battle foam too, but this assertion comes off sounding a lot like he is producing an officially licensed product. To my knowledge, he is not.

I happen to know that there are foam companies that will custom cut foam of any variety for whatever reason you need. Long before Battlefoam was even a thought in the mind of Romeo.

I know this because I have used that service before.
Exhibit A:
http://www.thefoamfactory.com/packagingfoam/custompackaging.html

A post like that could come back to bite battlefoam in the buttocks. Not very professional. I still think Battlefoam has the best products at a decent price, but that is no excuse for the post romeo made.

I see it as no different to warning someone of a bad seller on eBay. And given our experiences with Romeo here, I have no reason to doubt him.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I see it as no different to warning someone of a bad seller on eBay. And given our experiences with Romeo here, I have no reason to dobut him.

Fair enough I guess, to take the kinds of comments that romeo made for what they are worth. What they are worth I will leave for the reader to discern.

Ooh! I love internet drama. Romeo is proving to be great value in that regard!

Shame the threads got locked. I was pulling up my chair and breaking out the popcorn for a great evening's viewing!

Bottom line, as I read it. Romeo is a small businessman with massive enthusiasm for his product, but a major problem when it comes to tact and PR. He is vigourously trying to defend his idea (selling well-cut foam packaging to gamers) in the face of some significant problems - GW's IP lawyers, and potential competition from anyone else who wants to set up and do the same thing. Can't blame him for trying. In the long term if he can offer best perceived value to his customers then he will survive. But ultimately calling competitors' products "crap" (as he also does with Sabol and GW foam) and spouting vitriol just looks a bit childish. Which doesn't really do much direct harm, but just rings a bit of a "methinks the lady protesteth too much" kind of bell for me. If he had the reality behind his assertions to back them up, he wouldn't need to shout so loudly, he'd just let his solicitor's do the talking? Maybe? Internet outrage is all very well, but we've seen (and often perpetrated) it all before...

Good luck to him on the patents issue. I'm no patent lawyer, but I've seen enough in business (OK, I've watched a couple of episodes of "Dragon's Den"!!) to know its a specialist and expensive field, and filled with potholes. Many, many small business founder because they mess up and don't get patent because they did something wrong in the process way back before they realised it was going to be an issue. In any case, the libel, defamation and slander laws tend to be much stronger, sexy and more reliable. And it looks like Romeo doesn't have the first clue about them

Personally I think it is pretty inevitable that some competitors will come along and maybe take away some of his business. For one reason. He is trying to control the world wide market himself, and he simply isn't big enough to do that.

As I understand it, he only really sells direct. He hasn't managed to partner up with a non-US distributor. This makes his non-US shipping costs very high, and prices him out of much of the non-US market. I can only speculate at the reasons, but I suspect he is either unable or unwilling to offer distributors sufficient margin to make it worth their while. So, given that cutting foam to shape and putting a case around it is not exactly an original idea (witness Hellfury's link, also, heck, I did the same thing myself by hand for some LotR Cave Troll models several years back and posted an article on the now-defunct TLA all about it here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20040822043914/www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=article&articlefilename=readyingcustcase&catid=1&subid=1&artilceid=193


- shall I sue Romeo for copying my original idea?) then someone, maybe an existing "pull and pluck" manufacturer here in the UK/EU (Figures in Comfort? Kaiser Rushforth?)will probably come along and do the same (or a similar enough) thing. If they think there's enough of a potential market. And undercut his pricing. That's competition for ya!

I've got nothing against Romeo. Many people (such as theD6G) call him a nice guy, and he's only a small businessman trying to make his way in the world. That's the American Dream. On the other hand calling your competitors' products "crap" and getting all passive/aggressive on the internet isn't endearing really. His product gets great reviews and his customer service gets good reports too. His basic pricing his high, but its a quality product, so the value seems to be there. High international shipping and coming across as an oversensitive internet bully seem to be his main problems at the moment.

All of this is mere supposition on my part of course, and I'm sure Romeo will post here and put me right if I have mispoken.

The second thread is still open and therefore game...

Hellfury wrote:The second thread is still open and therefore game...

Ah! Excellent!

*pulls up chair and breaks out popcorn*

I really am crap at this internet thing, aren't I!

H.B.M.C. wrote:I saw nothing immature at all in Romeo's post.

Stop being such a pessimist.

I agree with Osbad. The entire thing was bollocksed-up from the very beginning.

Perhaps if Battlefoam's trays weren't miscut and full of leftover hot-glue, people wouldn't feel the need to "bootleg"

Just sayin'

@Bunker:

A. I have heard Romeo many times say that if you have a problem with your order to contact him and he will do whatever it takes to make it right. I have heard nothing but praise of his customer service.

B. So if something isn't perfect it's ok to rip it off?



I do believe that there may be some history with Romeo and this other guy. It was pretty clear from Romeo's post that they have crossed paths before. That being said, Romeo came off even stronger than normal and crossed the line a bit. A more reasoned response, maybe with some examples of prior issues they two have had would have been a much better post.

Hey guys, the infamous Bryan Wade here from Outrider Hobbies. Just wanted to stop by and throw in my two cents and answer a couple of questions.

First off, I do know Romeo Filip. I have known him for a couple of years now. It hasn't been fun. In fact to the point that an injunction against harrassment has been placed on him. I wonder what the judge will think of the post he made earlier.

Second, yes I decided I would compete with Romeo. I reched this conclusion after doing some research. I thought as a consumer that his prices were a bit high. Even for custom work. I looked into material cost, manufacturing cost, and still decided that his prices were too high. So what is a person to do, armed with all of this information, well, I figured go into business for myself. In addition, I thought that Romeo had made some mistakes in his process and designs, so I decided to improve upon them. The whole idea of "building a better mousetrap".

I admit it has taken longer to get moving than I expected, but things are starting to progress. So, to answer a couple questions about the Space Hulk trays. First, I find it very funny that he says my trays will not work. Which is rather surprising since the pictures show all of the components but TWO, in the trays themselves. I also play boardgames. I looked at his second tray and said to myself, why bother, I might as well throw all the pieces back in the box for all the protection it is going to provide. So I went to work and came up with this tray http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555731. Every single piece except for the large room, the control panel and the two rule books fits in this tray. The sides are a bit thinner than I would like, I admit that, but figured since the tray most likely will not leave the box, it should not be an issue.

As for the quality of my products, I will leave that to the public to decide. I am about to ship some to people who ordered from me through BoardGameGeek.com.

And what the heck, I will send a 1" tray (Sabol sized) to the first 20 people that PM me. I will do this free of charge. Not even shipping. The only thing I ask is that you post your thoughts on DakkaDakka. Just specify in your email if you would like a 40 man (1x1.5" cuts) or 30 man (1x2"). And include your shipping info.

Uhm..

Yh, romeo got way too worked up, not only is this guy's product pretty poor(the foam's bent) but you can't stop someone from setting up competition, idk about the US but over here it's law, besides that though...I hope romeo does get his patent and so on. He's a really cool guy, great company, great product, and tbf this other guy has just been copying battlefoam all the way, it IS a bit of a rip.

EDIT: Anyone notice how the guy had a broken arm....don't suppose Romeo got a little too enthusiastic about defending his company...........

Osbad wrote:

Hellfury wrote:The second thread is still open and therefore game...

Ah! Excellent!

*pulls up chair and breaks out popcorn*

I really am crap at this internet thing, aren't I!

And I thought the day was boring. Great stuff. I second the call for Popcorn!

And already sent my PM for a free sample. Always willing to check out new product.

The plot thickens!

If I had a Sabol case for a tray to fit in, I'd take you up on that offer outriderhobbies! As I don't I'll leave the offer for someone who can make better use of such a thing. It would be selfish of me to waste it.

By the way. What's your shipping cost to the UK?

At least with the free tray you've got a producer/designer who doesn't mind putting his money where his mouth is. If the quality works, I wouldn't mind dropping some cash his way for some of the space hulk trays. Free samples always help me in my mini-supply buying decisions!

Hellfury wrote:The second thread is still open and therefore game...

second thread? where?

outriderhobbies wrote:And what the heck, I will send a 1" tray (Sabol sized) to the first 20 people that PM me. I will do this free of charge. Not even shipping. The only thing I ask is that you post your thoughts on DakkaDakka. Just specify in your email if you would like a 40 man (1x1.5" cuts) or 30 man (1x2"). And include your shipping info.

PM sent. As I'm considering replacing all the pluck foam in my Sabols, this will be a great way to compare....

Mez

outriderhobbies wrote:

And what the heck, I will send a 1" tray (Sabol sized) to the first 20 people that PM me. I will do this free of charge. Not even shipping. The only thing I ask is that you post your thoughts on DakkaDakka. Just specify in your email if you would like a 40 man (1x1.5" cuts) or 30 man (1x2"). And include your shipping info.

PM sent. If I do end up getting a tray, look forward to a heads up review of this foam vs. the Battlefoam 40 man troop tray

outriderhobbies wrote:First off, I do know Romeo Filip. I have known him for a couple of years now. It hasn't been fun. In fact to the point that an injunction against harrassment has been placed on him. I wonder what the judge will think of the post he made earlier.

So you decided to casually make a thread of legal action against a poster on this site? Classy, real classy, Mr. Wade. You know, I'm beginning to think that there's no innocent party in this little Harlequinade. I'll stick with buying my foam off KR, whose proprietors have never felt the need to insult anyone on a public forum.

Did either of you business geniuses ever consider how petulant, how shrill and how blunderingly incompetent partaking in this farce makes you look? What you don't get in businesses run by professionals is this kind of petty drama. Nobody at Volkswagen has ever gone on public record to say, "By the way, Honda is crap."

Agamemnon2 wrote:

outriderhobbies wrote:First off, I do know Romeo Filip. I have known him for a couple of years now. It hasn't been fun. In fact to the point that an injunction against harrassment has been placed on him. I wonder what the judge will think of the post he made earlier.

So you decided to casually make a thread of legal action against a poster on this site? Classy, real classy, Mr. Wade. You know, I'm beginning to think that there's no innocent party in this little Harlequinade. I'll stick with buying my foam off KR, whose proprietors have never felt the need to insult anyone on a public forum.

Did either of you business geniuses ever consider how petulant, how shrill and how blunderingly incompetent partaking in this farce makes you look? What you don't get in businesses run by professionals is this kind of petty drama. Nobody at Volkswagen has ever gone on public record to say, "By the way, Honda is crap."

Ag2: What is a KR? BTW, you're bit about Hondawagen is just gold, m'fren.

grizgrin wrote:Ag2: What is a KR? BTW, you're bit about Hondawagen is just gold, m'fren.

http://kaiserrushforth.com/

I own a large aluminum case bought from them in May. The trays are excellent, the only bad thing I have to say is that the surface of the case itself shows every tiniest nick and knock.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

outriderhobbies wrote:First off, I do know Romeo Filip. I have known him for a couple of years now. It hasn't been fun. In fact to the point that an injunction against harrassment has been placed on him. I wonder what the judge will think of the post he made earlier.

So you decided to casually make a thread of legal action against a poster on this site? Classy, real classy, Mr. Wade. You know, I'm beginning to think that there's no innocent party in this little Harlequinade. I'll stick with buying my foam off KR, whose proprietors have never felt the need to insult anyone on a public forum.

Did either of you business geniuses ever consider how petulant, how shrill and how blunderingly incompetent partaking in this farce makes you look? What you don't get in businesses run by professionals is this kind of petty drama. Nobody at Volkswagen has ever gone on public record to say, "By the way, Honda is crap."

Agamemnon2,

So you know, that was not a casual threat of legal action. When Mr Filip discovered that I was going to compete with him he confronted me. During that confrontation, he issued physical threats against me at two different times. One time in a store full of witnesses. In fact after I filed the injunction, Mr Filip challenged it in court. He lost the case. In fact he did not even challenge the statements used to file the injunction in the first place. The judge sided with me, and the injunction remains in force to this day.

Bryan Wade
Outrider Hobbies

Looked into KR. Interesting, but doesn't help me out much. I'm trying ot get out of having to carry some of my armies to the store in a stupid number of boxes. My IG currently runs 5 vehicles and about 220 squad bodies. I'm looking to get all that into one box, and that limits my flexibility somewhat.

Foam wars.

Chrispy wrote:Foam wars.

Indeed.

EVERYONE needs to tread carefully here, including the two primary parties involved in this 'dispute'.

By all means, compare products, prices, etc.

Do NOT engage in Foam Wars of Flame here on Dakka.

DO follow all the rules of Dakka Dakka.

Personally i won't be buying from either of these chaps, mostly cause they're both in the states and the postage costs are just prehibitive, i'll simply be creating my own foam inserts and already have an idea about how to keep the card pieces so they're not rubbing against each other or sliding around i'll be doing this for me i won't be selling on the internet but i will be providing a description of how i did it for free because if someone else wants to use that idea for their own box then i'm game.
pete

I just wanted to announce my own foam company. The Solid State Foam Company. How this works is that you send me your miniatures and I encase them all in a solid block of foam. You won't be able to take them out, but imagine how safe they will be without a millimeter of movement. This is as custom-fitting as you can get!

Also, as the owner of the Solid State Foam Company, I'd like to mention that all other foam companies are thieves and vagabonds. And I'm sure that they don't pay taxes or some such.

Order today!

Sometimes humor is called for to help out a particularly tense situation.

I'm not sure that this is one of those times.

Chrispy wrote:I just wanted to announce my own foam company. The Solid State Foam Company. How this works is that you send me your miniatures and I encase them all in a solid block of foam. You won't be able to take them out, but imagine how safe they will be without a millimeter of movement. This is as custom-fitting as you can get!

Also, as the owner of the Solid State Foam Company, I'd like to mention that all other foam companies are thieves and vagabonds. And I'm sure that they don't pay taxes or some such.

Order today!

Lately, this seems the best option for my models. I've been working afternoons and evenings, thereby eliminating almost every chance to play a game anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are still 10 samples available. If you have already PMed me, I have your information and will be sending it out soon.

outriderhobbies wrote:So you know, that was not a casual threat of legal action. When Mr Filip discovered that I was going to compete with him he confronted me. During that confrontation, he issued physical threats against me at two different times. One time in a store full of witnesses. In fact after I filed the injunction, Mr Filip challenged it in court. He lost the case. In fact he did not even challenge the statements used to file the injunction in the first place. The judge sided with me, and the injunction remains in force to this day.

Doesn't matter. That you chose to air out the issue on this forum in such a crass manner speaks volumes, especially the smug "Oh, I wonder what a judge would say" wording you chose.

Chrispy wrote:
Also, as the owner of the Solid State Foam Company, I'd like to mention that all other foam companies are thieves and vagabonds. And I'm sure that they don't pay taxes or some such. Order today!

outriderhobbies wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are still 10 samples available. If you have already PMed me, I have your information and will be sending it out soon.

Thanks =)

The Kaiser cases look like the Cadillac of cases, but I would need too many of them to haul or store my army.
The Battlefoam and Sabol systems both look really good, but I like the flexibility of the Sabol's pick and pluck better than figuring out what thing will fit where, and the Battlefoam is just too costly.
I sent a PM to see if I could get my free tray to check out and compare to my Sabol trays.

Romeo Filip's profanity, aggression, and business prectices are well established. Check the link. This behavior isnt new.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-maplecontroversy011809&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Ouch!

Wow, I didn't know Romeo started in the bat business. I wonder if that is how he acquired his foam cutting machinery?

http://www.diablobats.com/about_ash_maple_bats.html

Mez

He said in a D6G podcast episode that his bat company is EXACTLY where he got the capitol equipment for Battlefoam.


Giant cutting lasers engraving bats or foam pew pew.

I wonder what the next place of refuge will be, if this pattern continues?

Argentina. I hear they been letting anyone into that place since the '40s

Chrispy wrote:He said in a D6G podcast episode that his bat company is EXACTLY where he got the capitol equipment for Battlefoam. Giant cutting lasers engraving bats or foam pew pew.

Very interesting - didn't know that. I just found the letter that Romeo sent to the Major League Baseball's Roy Krasik back in January. I can't post it hear because of the profanity, but link is below.

You got to respect Romeo for his fire and passion.

http://rumorsontheinternets.org/2009/01/21/roti-exclusive-maple-bat-man-strikes-back/

Mezmaron wrote:You got to respect Romeo for his fire and passion.

http://rumorsontheinternets.org/2009/01/21/roti-exclusive-maple-bat-man-strikes-back/

It makes for staggeringly unprofessional business communication, though.

Wow!

Oouff! Talk about biting the hand that feeds you! That was some letter. As we say in our office never send a letter [or email] angry, Its never something that can't wait a day and the new perspective it will bring.

That said Diablo bats would seem to be getting a raw deal there, but it does seem like Romeo was too hasty on the foam retort though.

Having said that have you ever considered turning your hand to willow and knocking out some bats like a proper game like cricket?

More competition the better for us customers although this has shed some light on what I originally thought as a super-friendly company in Battlefoam; loved those guys because they sponsor all the popular tabletop podcasts. However don't like doing business with Mark Cuban type of personalities.

Despite this thread, I think that it's best to let a company stand on the merits of products. More competition is better for the consumers.

With that said, Solid State Foam. It's the Future of Foam (tm).

As a consumer, I would have to stand with the company that provides me the best value for my dollar. This is usually a cross-reference of customer service, quality, and cost. I've done business with Romeo in the past, and have never been treated liwith harshness or profanity; or I would seriously re-consider doing future business with him. Well, a little profanity wouldn't scare me off; anyone whos seen one of my diatribes knows I can be less than polite and endearing to say the least.

Most companies involved in business to business transactions that I have dealt with in the past tend to get a little touchy, and feel that if they aren't getting their donkey-caves swabbed with someone's tongue then they don't want to do business with them. I see it, I understand it; I just don't expect that myself. People wanna get harsh with me; I don't care if they can get the job done to spec on time for price. Period. I don't work with nice people, they don't all hug each other in the mornings and perform team building exercises on the weekends. Such is life sometimes, and in the case of my job I actually like it.

edited for spelling and inserting appropriate negatives.

Osbad wrote:
As I understand it, he only really sells direct. He hasn't managed to partner up with a non-US distributor. This makes his non-US shipping costs very high, and prices him out of much of the non-US market. I can only speculate at the reasons, but I suspect he is either unable or unwilling to offer distributors sufficient margin to make it worth their while.

My FLGS looked into ordering some cases from E-figures but the Battlefoam cases they had were all filled with pluck and pull foam. There were no options to order any of the precut foam (ie marine, eldar, etc). Then my flgs said there was some kind of falling out between E-Figures and Battlefoam so that they (flgs) can no longer order BF products from their distributor.

This was dissapointing as I wanted to get some foam without paying the high shipping costs :(

notprop wrote:Having said that have you ever considered turning your hand to willow and knocking out some bats like a proper game like cricket?

The day cricket becomes a multi-billion dollar industry I think he might ;-)

And people say there's no such thing as bad publicity...

What's an E-figures?

grizgrin wrote:What's an E-figures?

http://www.e-figures.com/

US gaming distributor

neiltj1 wrote:

grizgrin wrote:What's an E-figures?

http://www.e-figures.com/

US gaming distributor

Good little company, in business for about a year, and bringing in a great line of products. I order from them about 3 times a month for my stores.

THat's a hell of a recommendation right htere, too. Thanks, mikhaila and neiltj1.

BTW, Neil: I saw that tatoo you have as an avatar done in red ink on a strippers back one. Beautiful.

You know... I like you grizgrin, you're good people.

? Well, I'm glad you think so. Thank you. You should have caught my previously shut-down avatar.

grizgrin wrote:
BTW, Neil: I saw that tatoo you have as an avatar done in red ink on a strippers back one. Beautiful.

wow. bet that was nice. I found it on the cover of a journal and have been using it ever since. Your avatar is awesome as heck.

I think what is lost on people is the "process" to cut the foam, not just cutting foam. While Romeo could be viewed as "going off" or "has no tact", people should look from his side and see that he is defending his product(with patent law and lawyers), like he should. What alot of people do not now is that these to guys have a pass and it has only gotten worse...

Foam Corps is ripping off BF and I know this for a fact, since I know Romeo and the Foam Corp owner.

Just so you guys know the foam war is over, before it ever began.....

Cheers

I have to say I like that lower section better than BF but I imagine that it'll suffer the same issue as the BF one for me.... (international shipping) cmon folks lets get us a UK foamsmith.

It's just a foam cutter with a custom pattern.

Sure, the pattern can be copyrighted, just like any other design.

But patent? How the hell is that even possible to be patented? Does nobody else in the world know how to cut custom foam?

I believe one can get custom foam done by several vendors, so I don't see what's special.

Does BF having the rights to the custom-cut foam mean that Sabol has the right to the pull and pluck foam?

Romeo may want to watch which sleeping dog he lets lie here.

kinghammer wrote:I think what is lost on people is the "process" to cut the foam, not just cutting foam. While Romeo could be viewed as "going off" or "has no tact", people should look from his side and see that he is defending his product(with patent law and lawyers), like he should. What alot of people do not now is that these to guys have a pass and it has only gotten worse...

Foam Corps is ripping off BF and I know this for a fact, since I know Romeo and the Foam Corp owner.

Just so you guys know the foam war is over, before it ever began.....

Cheers

Please post Romeo's Patent number. Then he might earn some credability. He doesn't have one and if you know Romeo, you know that's true.

grizgrin wrote:? Well, I'm glad you think so. Thank you. You should have caught my previously shut-down avatar.

The bouncing boobs .gif? Yeah, twas a shame to see it go. That's happened to me on other forums too. Like it's my fault I love boobs like H.B.M.C. loves the 3.5 Chaos Codex?

But the new one isn't that bad =)

Neconilis wrote:

grizgrin wrote:? Well, I'm glad you think so. Thank you. You should have caught my previously shut-down avatar.

The bouncing boobs .gif? Yeah, twas a shame to see it go. That's happened to me on other forums too. Like it's my fault I love boobs like H.B.M.C. loves the 3.5 Chaos Codex?

But the new one isn't that bad =)

Tits are great. Actually, I shut it down because a friend pointed out that even with the "censor-spot" someone could sign onto dakka at work and get insta-canned. I took it down immediately.

Simplicity can have a beauty all it's own. It's poetry, albveit this verse is pretty riebald. "There once was a lady from Venus,..."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kinghammer wrote:... since I know Romeo and the Foam Corp owner.

Just so you guys know the foam war is over, before it ever began.....

Cheers

And some expansion here please? Not asking about state secrets, but would be really curious here. And I ain't the only one, I bet...

San Mateo wrote:

kinghammer wrote:I think what is lost on people is the "process" to cut the foam, not just cutting foam. While Romeo could be viewed as "going off" or "has no tact", people should look from his side and see that he is defending his product(with patent law and lawyers), like he should. What alot of people do not now is that these to guys have a pass and it has only gotten worse...

Foam Corps is ripping off BF and I know this for a fact, since I know Romeo and the Foam Corp owner.

Just so you guys know the foam war is over, before it ever began.....

Cheers

Please post Romeo's Patent number. Then he might earn some credability. He doesn't have one and if you know Romeo, you know that's true.

Well my good friend do you know what "patent pending" means? He is in the process of getting one, thats what that means. Once it becomes a patent he will have a number and you could look it up yourself. By the way once he gets a patent, it will no longer be "patent pending". I hope I cleared that up for you.

Cheers

as far as I know, one you FILE a patent on something, you are legally considered to have that patent until such time as your application is rejected or the patent is awarded and expires.

Or I could be thinking of ANDA's again,....

But how do you patent them in the first place? You can't patent foam, and I'm pretty sure it's already patented in any case. I don't think you can patent the cuts themselves, as anyone can cut foam, and even if you did you'd probably be breaching GW/PP copyright since you're tracing their models.

I like Battlefoam and all, I just bought the Space Hulk trays and it seems like good stuff, but I really don't understand how it can be patented. It would be like using a router to cut holes in wood, and then patenting those holes, how do you get away with that?

Is he attempting to patent negative space in general?

So "Fluffy Foam Trays NL, a foam so soft and cut so perfect it feels like a glove" can never see the light of day? Drat, guess I'll have to wait until some miracle happens and that stupid overpriced foam can be sold here without it costing us a fortune.

Great all we need now is foam wars

Apart from the extreme sillyness of all this I just wanted to add the following...

There is a potential huge marked in Europe for customized foam trays and europeans will not pay the ridiculous shipping charged from US based companies... The first companie to establish itself here will get the greens faster so if both you guys are so freaked out with home based competition open your eyes and do something about EU markets!

Sidstyler wrote:But how do you patent them in the first place? You can't patent foam, and I'm pretty sure it's already patented in any case. I don't think you can patent the cuts themselves, as anyone can cut foam, and even if you did you'd probably be breaching GW/PP copyright since you're tracing their models.

I like Battlefoam and all, I just bought the Space Hulk trays and it seems like good stuff, but I really don't understand how it can be patented. It would be like using a router to cut holes in wood, and then patenting those holes, how do you get away with that?

Is he attempting to patent negative space in general?

He's not getting a patent on the foam he's getting a patent on the process to create custom foam trays.

Look, we all can see that this other guy looked at what Romeo was doing and said, "hey, I bet I can do something similar and make some money." Whether Romeo can legally get him to stop is beyond my legal knowledge but it's pretty obvious this guy is copying Battlefoam.

But cutting customised foams in laser is not something new or revolutionary, it has been done for many years now... The only thing "new" is that these foams are specific to GW miniatures wargames.
They can sue, register patents whatever... or they can try to arrange something for europe customers... theres so much ground to cover that I dont get all this fight.

Bah, I hate the kind of legal dickery where competition is killed before it can kick off properly, especially when it kills off ways for us to buy without paying too much for P&P. Damn it, if this is patented and stopped for others through some BS loophole I will kill myself and haunt whoever is responsible for this. And I don't mean the lawyer.

Maybe throw in a curse as well.

Hang on, got one right here: "May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits and nether regions."

Sidstyler wrote:But how do you patent them in the first place? You can't patent foam, and I'm pretty sure it's already patented in any case. I don't think you can patent the cuts themselves, as anyone can cut foam, and even if you did you'd probably be breaching GW/PP copyright since you're tracing their models.

I like Battlefoam and all, I just bought the Space Hulk trays and it seems like good stuff, but I really don't understand how it can be patented. It would be like using a router to cut holes in wood, and then patenting those holes, how do you get away with that?

Is he attempting to patent negative space in general?

He is not patenting foam. It is the process to cut he foam.

Ozymandias wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:But how do you patent them in the first place? You can't patent foam, and I'm pretty sure it's already patented in any case. I don't think you can patent the cuts themselves, as anyone can cut foam, and even if you did you'd probably be breaching GW/PP copyright since you're tracing their models.

I like Battlefoam and all, I just bought the Space Hulk trays and it seems like good stuff, but I really don't understand how it can be patented. It would be like using a router to cut holes in wood, and then patenting those holes, how do you get away with that?

Is he attempting to patent negative space in general?

He's not getting a patent on the foam he's getting a patent on the process to create custom foam trays.

Look, we all can see that this other guy looked at what Romeo was doing and said, "hey, I bet I can do something similar and make some money." Whether Romeo can legally get him to stop is beyond my legal knowledge but it's pretty obvious this guy is copying Battlefoam.

Oh he can get him to stop. It takes one call from a lawyer to make it clear.

Mikeb21 wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:But how do you patent them in the first place? You can't patent foam, and I'm pretty sure it's already patented in any case. I don't think you can patent the cuts themselves, as anyone can cut foam, and even if you did you'd probably be breaching GW/PP copyright since you're tracing their models.

I like Battlefoam and all, I just bought the Space Hulk trays and it seems like good stuff, but I really don't understand how it can be patented. It would be like using a router to cut holes in wood, and then patenting those holes, how do you get away with that?

Is he attempting to patent negative space in general?

He's not getting a patent on the foam he's getting a patent on the process to create custom foam trays.

Look, we all can see that this other guy looked at what Romeo was doing and said, "hey, I bet I can do something similar and make some money." Whether Romeo can legally get him to stop is beyond my legal knowledge but it's pretty obvious this guy is copying Battlefoam.

Oh he can get him to stop. It takes one call from a lawyer to make it clear.

Then why hasn't it happened yet? Why has there been no Cease and Desist letter drafted and sent?

What I don't get is it sounded like the only thing he could patent is how he cut the Space Hulk miniatures. He can't be applying for a patent for 'foam cutting' in general, can he?

Like others have mentioned, there are many companies that already cut custom foam, or cut foam in the first place. If the issue is the use of frickin lazers, then what is to stop me using a different "process" to get to the same end result?

Or is he trying to patent tracing lines around miniatures in order to cut the foam? I for one am confused, and don't see what the big deal is.

I am a total loss to imagine how there is any novelty to use a computer-controlled *cutting* tool (of any type whatsoever) to cut foam.

It's like saying, well, I want to patent the use of steel scissors to cut cardstock, even though though people have been using steel scissors (and other tools) cutting cardboard and paperstock for years.

Can someone explain this to me?

Bunker wrote:

Mikeb21 wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:But how do you patent them in the first place? You can't patent foam, and I'm pretty sure it's already patented in any case. I don't think you can patent the cuts themselves, as anyone can cut foam, and even if you did you'd probably be breaching GW/PP copyright since you're tracing their models.

I like Battlefoam and all, I just bought the Space Hulk trays and it seems like good stuff, but I really don't understand how it can be patented. It would be like using a router to cut holes in wood, and then patenting those holes, how do you get away with that?

Is he attempting to patent negative space in general?

He's not getting a patent on the foam he's getting a patent on the process to create custom foam trays.

Look, we all can see that this other guy looked at what Romeo was doing and said, "hey, I bet I can do something similar and make some money." Whether Romeo can legally get him to stop is beyond my legal knowledge but it's pretty obvious this guy is copying Battlefoam.

Oh he can get him to stop. It takes one call from a lawyer to make it clear.

Then why hasn't it happened yet? Why has there been no Cease and Desist letter drafted and sent?

How do you know there has not been a Cease and Desist letter? I don't think most if any people on here know all of the facts. And for people that call Romeo hot headed....how many of you have met him or even talked to him on the phone? And as far as what can or cannot have a patent on it I think it would be best of we left that up the the Patent lawyers. I doubt any of us on here practice that type of law

I think the reasons for calling Romeo hot headed are about the only thing in this situation that are clear. He's obviously unhappy, but he went a little ott (same with the baseball thing), and all that does is inflame the situation. Hey has anyone noticed that niether of the involved parties has said anything in days?

Sirius42 wrote:I think the reasons for calling Romeo hot headed are about the only thing in this situation that are clear. He's obviously unhappy, but he went a little ott (same with the baseball thing), and all that does is inflame the situation. Hey has anyone noticed that niether of the involved parties has said anything in days?

Put yourself in Romeo's position. He put all sorts of time money and hard work into creating his foam. And then a someone buys it from him, attempts to copy and releases it. If that was your business I imagine you would be pretty mad yourself. And it is not a coincidence that no one is saying anything......

Is it a actual copy?

Or is merely a competing product?

For those wondering about how he can patent the process, there are over 20 different patents for paperclips.
All you need is something unique about the process for it to be a different patent.

http://www.officemuseum.com/paper_clips.htm

JohnHwangDD wrote:Is it a actual copy?

Or is merely a competing product?

Having seen both in person it is a bad copy. And a stolen idea.

outriderhobbies wrote:Hey guys, the infamous Bryan Wade here from Outrider Hobbies. Just wanted to stop by and throw in my two cents and answer a couple of questions.

First off, I do know Romeo Filip. I have known him for a couple of years now. It hasn't been fun. In fact to the point that an injunction against harrassment has been placed on him. I wonder what the judge will think of the post he made earlier.

Second, yes I decided I would compete with Romeo. I reched this conclusion after doing some research. I thought as a consumer that his prices were a bit high. Even for custom work. I looked into material cost, manufacturing cost, and still decided that his prices were too high. So what is a person to do, armed with all of this information, well, I figured go into business for myself. In addition, I thought that Romeo had made some mistakes in his process and designs, so I decided to improve upon them. The whole idea of "building a better mousetrap".

I admit it has taken longer to get moving than I expected, but things are starting to progress. So, to answer a couple questions about the Space Hulk trays. First, I find it very funny that he says my trays will not work. Which is rather surprising since the pictures show all of the components but TWO, in the trays themselves. I also play boardgames. I looked at his second tray and said to myself, why bother, I might as well throw all the pieces back in the box for all the protection it is going to provide. So I went to work and came up with this tray http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555731. Every single piece except for the large room, the control panel and the two rule books fits in this tray. The sides are a bit thinner than I would like, I admit that, but figured since the tray most likely will not leave the box, it should not be an issue.

As for the quality of my products, I will leave that to the public to decide. I am about to ship some to people who ordered from me through BoardGameGeek.com.

And what the heck, I will send a 1" tray (Sabol sized) to the first 20 people that PM me. I will do this free of charge. Not even shipping. The only thing I ask is that you post your thoughts on DakkaDakka. Just specify in your email if you would like a 40 man (1x1.5" cuts) or 30 man (1x2"). And include your shipping info.

This whole post bothers the living crap out of me on so many levels it sends a chill down my spine. First you say you have known Romeo for many years and you have had issues with him before? He has done blah blah to you.... So you decided to go in the same business as him why? Because you think there are errors in his work? Give me a break! Because you think you have came up with a low cost business plan? Be honest It really seems like you are a person using the law to make someone’s life difficult and manipulate certain things to put him in those positions.

Reminds me of those Tv shows that always show the guy with restraining order on his ex girlfriend but all of a sudden takes a job that works on site as his ex to make her life miserable.

Yes, Romeo is passionate about his business and defends it with pride just as any young business men would do. Anyone with half a brain can see that with the previous articles that people have posted about his previous history in the bat business. He isn't being unprofessional as any young gun in the new business and people thinking he is being unprofessional should actually be thankful for him defending something that he is such passionate about.

I see this post and be honest I hope people will see something is up and stay away from someone like this. It just feels so unethical and manipulative under the guise....

Darkwynn wrote:

outriderhobbies wrote:Hey guys, the infamous Bryan Wade here from Outrider Hobbies. Just wanted to stop by and throw in my two cents and answer a couple of questions.

First off, I do know Romeo Filip. I have known him for a couple of years now. It hasn't been fun. In fact to the point that an injunction against harrassment has been placed on him. I wonder what the judge will think of the post he made earlier.

Second, yes I decided I would compete with Romeo. I reched this conclusion after doing some research. I thought as a consumer that his prices were a bit high. Even for custom work. I looked into material cost, manufacturing cost, and still decided that his prices were too high. So what is a person to do, armed with all of this information, well, I figured go into business for myself. In addition, I thought that Romeo had made some mistakes in his process and designs, so I decided to improve upon them. The whole idea of "building a better mousetrap".

I admit it has taken longer to get moving than I expected, but things are starting to progress. So, to answer a couple questions about the Space Hulk trays. First, I find it very funny that he says my trays will not work. Which is rather surprising since the pictures show all of the components but TWO, in the trays themselves. I also play boardgames. I looked at his second tray and said to myself, why bother, I might as well throw all the pieces back in the box for all the protection it is going to provide. So I went to work and came up with this tray http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555731. Every single piece except for the large room, the control panel and the two rule books fits in this tray. The sides are a bit thinner than I would like, I admit that, but figured since the tray most likely will not leave the box, it should not be an issue.

As for the quality of my products, I will leave that to the public to decide. I am about to ship some to people who ordered from me through BoardGameGeek.com.

And what the heck, I will send a 1" tray (Sabol sized) to the first 20 people that PM me. I will do this free of charge. Not even shipping. The only thing I ask is that you post your thoughts on DakkaDakka. Just specify in your email if you would like a 40 man (1x1.5" cuts) or 30 man (1x2"). And include your shipping info.

This whole post bothers the living crap out of me on so many levels it sends a chill down my spine. First you say you have known Romeo for many years and you have had issues with him before? He has done blah blah to you.... So you decided to go in the same business as him why? Because you think there are errors in his work? Give me a break! Because you think you have came up with a low cost business plan? Be honest It really seems like you are a person using the law to make someone’s life difficult and manipulate certain things to put him in those positions.

Reminds me of those Tv shows that always show the guy with restraining order on his ex girlfriend but all of a sudden takes a job that works on site as his ex to make her life miserable.

Yes, Romeo is passionate about his business and defends it with pride just as any young business men would do. Anyone with half a brain can see that with the previous articles that people have posted about his previous history in the bat business. He isn't being unprofessional as any young gun in the new business and people thinking he is being unprofessional should actually be thankful for him defending something that he is such passionate about.

I see this post and be honest I hope people will see something is up and stay away from someone like this. It just feels so unethical and manipulative under the guise....

Your insight is spot on

Yep bottom sections are a total rip off. /sarcasm

http://battlefoam.com/images/SpaceHulkBoxTray.jpg
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555731

and a close look at the top sections show them to be similar, but still different products.

And a stolen idea.

please it is no more a stolen idea then making after market foam for sabol, and GW cases.
I applaud Romeo for making a product that people want. If a competitor wants to bring a similar product at a more reasonable price than I applaud that also.

neiltj1 wrote:Yep bottom sections are a total rip off. /sarcasm

http://battlefoam.com/images/SpaceHulkBoxTray.jpg
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555731

and a close look at the top sections show them to be similar, but still different products.

And a stolen idea.

please it is no more a stolen idea then making after market foam for sabol, and GW cases.
I applaud Romeo for making a product that people want. If a competitor wants to bring a similar product at a more reasonable price than I applaud that also.

Funny I did not know you were a patent lawyer.......

@ Cato: I'm not saying romeo does or does not have the right to be annoyed, I dont know enough about either buisness or thier respective histories to comment on that, I was just pointing out to those folk whom argued that he was not hot headed that taking your anger to a public forum in the manner he has is a pretty hot headed thing to do.

@ Darkwynn: I see your point but again we don't know the backstory, we dont know why they have known eachother for so long and the bad blood could be because they were both in competition over the same market, hence persistent issues? for all we know they could have been buisness partners until one ran over the others cat ???? also, with regards to Romeo's posting, it just comes off as if he's running his mouth, he could have said exactly the same thing in a far more civilized way, or said nothing and just let the courts or the buyers do the talking.

with regards to outrider they could have done the same thing. I think that his response, including the faf about restraining orders was an attempt (not a very good one) at sounding reasoned while tipping public opinion in his favour.

As i've said on the other thread (and especially now that i've seen comparison photos) BF provide a markedly superior product, however outrider is cheaper, therefore, who buys which will probably be decided by a quality/price balance, I paint everything I own to an above table top standard so i'd have to back BF, but my decision would be based entirely on the products. (however I intend to buy niether as niether have a uk distributor and I dont fancy the shipping)

A final point i've noticed, a lot of new faces are appearing to raise opinions in the foam war, opinionated lurkers or friends of the respective distributors? the plot thickens *gasp*

Funny, I didn't know anyone on Dakka was.) I'm sure we may have one somewhere though, I just know them.
You don't need to be a patent lawyer to take part in a discussion.

What I'm finding interesting is the people who are coming onto Dakka, setting up new accounts, and only posting on the BF side of the Foam Wars. I guess the other guy hasn't played his "hire shills" card yet.

If making foam trays could be patented, then Romeo wouldn't be the first to do it. Many other companies made/make foam trays for miniature cases Sabol, GW, Chessex, Reaper, and probably a 100 other companies. Plus cases for guns, photgraphic equipment, medical instruments, musical instruments, etc etc etc.

Now, is it possible Romeo has invented a radically new method and machinery to do it, patented the idea/machine, and now someone else has made the same thing to cut foam? I suppose it's a possibility. In that case, he should just send the guy a cease and desist order.

Sirius42 wrote:@ Cato: I'm not saying romeo does or does not have the right to be annoyed, I dont know enough about either buisness or thier respective histories to comment on that, I was just pointing out to those folk whom argued that he was not hot headed that taking your anger to a public forum in the manner he has is a pretty hot headed thing to do.

@ Darkwynn: I see your point but again we don't know the backstory, we dont know why they have known eachother for so long and the bad blood could be because they were both in competition over the same market, hence persistent issues? for all we know they could have been buisness partners until one ran over the others cat ???? also, with regards to Romeo's posting, it just comes off as if he's running his mouth, he could have said exactly the same thing in a far more civilized way, or said nothing and just let the courts or the buyers do the talking.

with regards to outrider they could have done the same thing. I think that his response, including the faf about restraining orders was an attempt (not a very good one) at sounding reasoned while tipping public opinion in his favour.

As i've said on the other thread (and especially now that i've seen comparison photos) BF provide a markedly superior product, however outrider is cheaper, therefore, who buys which will probably be decided by a quality/price balance, I paint everything I own to an above table top standard so i'd have to back BF, but my decision would be based entirely on the products. (however I intend to buy niether as niether have a uk distributor and I dont fancy the shipping)

A final point i've noticed, a lot of new faces are appearing to raise opinions in the foam war, opinionated lurkers or friends of the respective distributors? the plot thickens *gasp*

The plot indeed does thicken........


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mikhaila wrote:Funny, I didn't know anyone on Dakka was.) I'm sure we may have one somewhere though, I just know them.
You don't need to be a patent lawyer to take part in a discussion.

What I'm finding interesting is the people who are coming onto Dakka, setting up new accounts, and only posting on the BF side of the Foam Wars. I guess the other guy hasn't played his "hire shills" card yet.

If making foam trays could be patented, then Romeo wouldn't be the first to do it. Many other companies made/make foam trays for miniature cases Sabol, GW, Chessex, Reaper, and probably a 100 other companies. Plus cases for guns, photgraphic equipment, medical instruments, musical instruments, etc etc etc.

Now, is it possible Romeo has invented a radically new method and machinery to do it, patented the idea/machine, and now someone else has made the same thing to cut foam? I suppose it's a possibility. In that case, he should just send the guy a cease and desist order.

First off I am no hired gun. Just some one lucky (or unlucky enough) to see this mess first hand. I have been around both people and have seen their character. I was there to see the incident in the store and the follow up to it. And I have seen first hand both products. So do I consider myself very well informed? Yes.

Cato Sicarius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Is it a actual copy?

Or is merely a competing product?

Having seen both in person it is a bad copy. And a stolen idea.

Tell you what...

Post pictures of both trays (filled), and let us all decide in a poll.

Most likely, it's not close to a copy.

The "stolen idea" bit is completely laughable.
____

neiltj1 wrote:

Cato Sicarius wrote:And a stolen idea.

please it is no more a stolen idea then making after market foam for sabol, and GW cases.

Exactly. Variable foam inserts aren't a new concept at all. I've been able to get foam inserts for over a decade.
____

mikhaila wrote:If making foam trays could be patented, then Romeo wouldn't be the first to do it. Many other companies made/make foam trays for miniature cases Sabol, GW, Chessex, Reaper, and probably a 100 other companies. Plus cases for guns, photgraphic equipment, medical instruments, musical instruments, etc etc etc.

Now, is it possible Romeo has invented a radically new method and machinery to do it, patented the idea/machine, and now someone else has made the same thing to cut foam?

What? The world of foam inserts doesn't revolve around Romeo Flip? Inconceivable!

If it really is a new machine and process, that isn't obviously derivative of existing cutting / control systems, I'll be quite impressed. Shocked, really.

Cato Sicarius wrote:

How do you know there has not been a Cease and Desist letter?

Ooh, this one is easy.

I know because if there WAS a letter, and it was ignored (which it obviously would have been if Outrider is still producing trays), we wouldn;t be discussing who is right and who is wrong over the internet. Men in very expensive suits who charge out the nose by the hour would be discussing it in front of a judge.

Which isn't happening, by the way.


Also, to expand on my "Romeo may want to watch which sleeping dogs he lets lie here" statement from earlier, someone pointed out that BF will produce your foam with a choice of logo on them. One gentleman had the Blood Angels logo on his.

The Blood Angels logo, which is an IP of Games Workshop.

He isn't "ripping Romeo off", he's competing. And since (by the sounds of it) he's doing it for half the price, I forsee a lot of business coming his way.

Bunker wrote:Also, to expand on my "Romeo may want to watch which sleeping dogs he lets lie here" statement from earlier, someone pointed out that BF will produce your foam with a choice of logo on them. One gentleman had the Blood Angels logo on his.

The Blood Angels logo, which is an IP of Games Workshop.

As I posted in the other "foam wars" thread:

BF is definitely stepping on GW IP. Given that Romeo is familiar with licensing, per his experience with MLB bats, one would assume that he should have known to do so. Plus, GW says:

Games Workshop wrote:WHAT YOU CANNOT DO WITH GAMES WORKSHOP'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY

If you are using or want to use our intellectual property and you do not have a written license with us, you must not:
- Use Games Workshop's intellectual property in relation to any commercial activity ­ this includes, for example, paying a printer to print some flyers for you, obtaining sponsorship, or selling non-Games Workshop materials using our trademarks.
- Use any of our IP without appropriately crediting the IP and using the appropriate disclaimers in accordance with this policy.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=&categoryId=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&start=4#

So, to comply, Romeo would have had to have approached GW (i.e. "Legal@games-workshop.co.uk") for usage rights and license fee, because this is clearly commerical use and GW legal clearly states that you can't do that without a license.

Perhaps GW Legal can weigh in here. I'd *love* to know what they say about Romeo copying the BA Logo in direct violation of their IP rules.

Cato Sicarius wrote:

First off I am no hired gun.

You JUST joined Dakka.

You ONLY post in topics about the Battlefoam/Foam Corps. debate.

You sound EXACTLY as angry as Romeo did in his post on BoardGameGeek.

Chrispy wrote:I do like Romeo and the service that battlefoam provides, but the rest of the posts in that thread do make a point. There's no "bootlegging" going on. There's no "copying". You can't patent an idea. The design is original and different from BF's.

One can only patent processes and designs! As long as one uses their own designs that are dissimilar to Battlefoam's or GW's or Sabol's or KR, anyone with scissors and foam could set up their own foam company and compete!

Bunker wrote:

Cato Sicarius wrote:

How do you know there has not been a Cease and Desist letter?

Ooh, this one is easy.

I know because if there WAS a letter, and it was ignored (which it obviously would have been if Outrider is still producing trays), we wouldn;t be discussing who is right and who is wrong over the internet. Men in very expensive suits who charge out the nose by the hour would be discussing it in front of a judge.

Which isn't happening, by the way.


Also, to expand on my "Romeo may want to watch which sleeping dogs he lets lie here" statement from earlier, someone pointed out that BF will produce your foam with a choice of logo on them. One gentleman had the Blood Angels logo on his.

The Blood Angels logo, which is an IP of Games Workshop.

He isn't "ripping Romeo off", he's competing. And since (by the sounds of it) he's doing it for half the price, I forsee a lot of business coming his way.

You could not be more off on all accounts.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

A lot of smart stuff, also:

or selling non-Games Workshop materials using our trademarks.

Like I said, Romeo may want to watch who he threatens with legal action here, GW could easily take him to the cleaners over this.

On a slightly related note, could GW hit BF with a C&D for just using the term "Blood Angels"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cato Sicarius wrote:

Bunker wrote:

Cato Sicarius wrote:

How do you know there has not been a Cease and Desist letter?

Ooh, this one is easy.

I know because if there WAS a letter, and it was ignored (which it obviously would have been if Outrider is still producing trays), we wouldn;t be discussing who is right and who is wrong over the internet. Men in very expensive suits who charge out the nose by the hour would be discussing it in front of a judge.

Which isn't happening, by the way.


Also, to expand on my "Romeo may want to watch which sleeping dogs he lets lie here" statement from earlier, someone pointed out that BF will produce your foam with a choice of logo on them. One gentleman had the Blood Angels logo on his.

The Blood Angels logo, which is an IP of Games Workshop.

He isn't "ripping Romeo off", he's competing. And since (by the sounds of it) he's doing it for half the price, I forsee a lot of business coming his way.

You could not be more off on all accounts.

Really? Prove me wrong.

Bonus points: do it without being insulting or telling me "how wrong" I am without actually making any points.

Oh yeah, see the post of mine above this one, the part in bold actually shows how right I am

I'm sure that GW could hit battlefoam, but they don't gain anything by restricting what their logo is placed on. It's free marketing for them. The foam is going to be purchased anyway.

However, logos on a website are a no no, because not only would they lose potential customers of people ran out to buy "Battlefoam's Space Marine Trays" but they'd be publicly supporting or affiliated with anything Battlefoam said or did. Which is obviously a poor business practice given Romeo's history of running his mouth.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
What? The world of foam inserts doesn't revolve around Romeo Flip? Inconceivable!

What? The world of internet forums doesn't revolve around JohnHwang? Inconceivable!

Cheers

Actually, part of dakka does revolve around John, as he's been a regular poster and part of the Dakka community for sometime.

Unlike the shills and hired guns on both sides of the foam wars.)

mikhaila wrote:Actually, part of dakka does revolve around John, as he's been a regular poster and part of the Dakka community for sometime.

Unlike the shills and hired guns on both sides of the foam wars.)

Bang Bang

Cato Sicarius wrote:

Sirius42 wrote:I think the reasons for calling Romeo hot headed are about the only thing in this situation that are clear. He's obviously unhappy, but he went a little ott (same with the baseball thing), and all that does is inflame the situation. Hey has anyone noticed that niether of the involved parties has said anything in days?

Put yourself in Romeo's position. He put all sorts of time money and hard work into creating his foam. And then a someone buys it from him, attempts to copy and releases it. If that was your business I imagine you would be pretty mad yourself. And it is not a coincidence that no one is saying anything......

It's called capitalism, or to put it in a more poignant way, Matthew 26:52. Don't like it? Then stop supporting a system where greed is rewarded. Until then, acts like that are not only the order of the day, but to be expected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mikhaila wrote:Actually, part of dakka does revolve around John, as he's been a regular poster and part of the Dakka community for sometime.

Unlike the shills and hired guns on both sides of the foam wars.)

Sadly true, he has his own cult of personality, much like H.B.M.C. amongst others.

Hello guys,

I'm going to make post on this matter and that will be it. Please take it as truth because I have no reason to lie to you. I don't know any of you so by lying I would only be doing myself injustice.

1. My personal matters with Bryan Wade are just that, personal. I have known of him for many years and nothing good has come from it.

2. I will always fight to protect Battle Foam because I started it from nothing and worked my butt off to make it what it is today. Many people depend on my ability to keep them employed and keep food on their tables. If I don't fight for Battle Foam, who will?

3. I respect each and every one of you. God knows you are all blue collared workers who all busts your butts to make money that you spend on models. I respect that more then anything else so I will always strive to keep you 100% satisfied with our products or your money back.

4. We do have a patent on our cutting system. Not the machines or the foam, but on the process it takes to actually cut the material. This technology is what allows us to cut 1" to 10" deep foam without destroying the product. This process has never been done with these types of machines before. That is why our patent has been excepted and approved.

5. Patents and Copyrights are two totally different fields. When someone goes to your website and copies your idea and sells it to your customers after you created it, that becomes copyright infringement. That is what Mr. Wade is doing with the Space Hulk trays. He is not only violating parts of our patent, but he is in violation of copyrights. That is why GW can put lock downs on the word Space Marine and all artwork that resembles it.

6. We have been working with GW, PP, and FOW since day one of our doors being open. We always ask permission on all parts of our products and website. These discussions are kept private and I will not comment any further on those matters. Simply put, would I be advertising our business on every game forum and pod cast if I was violating GW, PP, or FOW policies?

7. We will always strive to bring you the best product possible. We will always be active in the community and we will always be here to pick up the phone to answer your questions. Please put yourself in our shoes, or better yet my shoes. How would you feel if someone poached your ideas days after you came up with them? What would you do if you spent weeks on painting your models a really cool and original way just to find the local bootlegger at the gamestore copied your idea and bragged he was the inventor?

8. Lastly, I'm here to tell you that we have several new items and projects launching in the upcoming months. These projects and products are coming to life to support your hobby. They are being made possible because of the Dakka communities support and willingness to buy our products. We all thank you for that at Battle Foam, and I personally thank you for being so vocal with your opinions.

Romeo
Battle Foam

I'm sad. I've been saving up to buy one of the battlefoam sets. Though after seeing how Romeo reacts to "competition" and/or criticism makes me very hesitant..

Though all of this interweb drama unfold has given me much good reading on Dakka to get my lurk on with.

So, Thanks you guys!

Nuwisha wrote:

I'm sad. I've been saving up to buy one of the battlefoam sets. Though after seeing how Romeo reacts to "competition" and/or criticism makes me very hesitant..

Though all of this interweb drama unfold has given me much good reading on Dakka to get my lurk on with.

So, Thanks you guys!

The drama can be exciting. On the serious side Battlefoam bags are amazing. I currently own a 1520 and a 216. I have been a GW fanboy since I got into this hobby and have used everything GW. And that includes the GW plastic cases. For less than the cost of my 4 large GW cases I secured myself a custom cut 1520. Not since I purchased it have I had any models break. Multiple people that game at the same store with me also have BF stuff. When any of them have had problems they have contacted the staff and gotten things replaced. Dont let all the shennanigans on here sway your opinion. Ask me......... better yet ask any of the other people on this forum that have purchased his stuff what they think of it. You may decide it is not for you or you may find it is what you are looking for. Good luck and good job on saving......any money I make burns a friggin hole in my pocket

Cato Sicarius wrote:

Nuwisha wrote:

I'm sad. I've been saving up to buy one of the battlefoam sets. Though after seeing how Romeo reacts to "competition" and/or criticism makes me very hesitant..

Though all of this interweb drama unfold has given me much good reading on Dakka to get my lurk on with.

So, Thanks you guys!

The drama can be exciting. On the serious side Battlefoam bags are amazing. I currently own a 1520 and a 216. I have been a GW fanboy since I got into this hobby and have used everything GW. And that includes the GW plastic cases. For less than the cost of my 4 large GW cases I secured myself a custom cut 1520. Not since I purchased it have I had any models break. Multiple people that game at the same store with me also have BF stuff. When any of them have had problems they have contacted the staff and gotten things replaced. Dont let all the shennanigans on here sway your opinion. Ask me......... better yet ask any of the other people on this forum that have purchased his stuff what they think of it. You may decide it is not for you or you may find it is what you are looking for. Good luck and good job on saving......any money I make burns a friggin hole in my pocket

And that was all I was pointing out I did say BF was better then FC and if I could afford it I would buy it, did I not?
I didnt come on here to sell FC trays. I made a comparison cuz I had both trays and people had asked for that. Never did I say FC trays were better.
No I do not know the details of the patents and copy rights. I do know romeo has a patent on how he cuts foam. I know Brian didnt steal it for I have witnessed he catch foam on fire when I worked for foam

Once again I have worked with brain not for him. and never have I gotten a single dollar. I never said anything bad about BF. I almost regret bringing it up as this has been blown out of proportion and I apoligize to Romeo for any hard feelings.

until I know farther about the laws and patents, buy from BF if you can afford it- if not look into other products as I was.

Oh my... Hired guns are plain silly!... people here at dakka can form their own opinions without ugly cheerleaders. If you think your doing a good service then think again, you are just scaring the pigeons.

For each penny wasted from these new and fragile companies on these disputes is a penny less improving service and product... so everyone looses, and thats bad.

As long as I have to pay 42 dollars for a 15dollar product Im not a happy or even just a customer and these foam wars only makes me even less interested on what you guys have to say or sell.

People at dakka have made it so clear that international costs are ridiculous proibitive and you should find a solution for it... if you do that I take my hat and give my money... but if you want to do foamwars then you only get my boot.

Some say they listen to their customers others say they have a cheaper product... I dare you to prove it then

Which isn't happening, by the way.

@ Bunker

We will see. Mr Wade has 30 days and if he is smart he will comply. Maybe you can send him some defense money or help him get a tax id so he can finally report his unclaimed earnings.

Cheers

Well, I'm sure they can sway our opinions for some free swag? If not, I'll just keep waiting for a company to set up shop across the Channel or dare I say, on the continent here.

Nuwisha wrote:

I'm sad. I've been saving up to buy one of the battlefoam sets. Though after seeing how Romeo reacts to "competition" and/or criticism makes me very hesitant..

With respect, I would offer another way of looking at it. I can see where you don't agree with how Romeo handles. Fine. But how much do you really interact with him? How much influence does he have in your life? I would guesstimate that the answer is "Damn little." So does it really matter if you like the guy or not? Are you planning on asking him over to dinner, maybe babysit the kids?

Romeo is, for most here, a possible vendor. Do you care what the person who is selling you a product thinks about you, in an e-business (a medium where customer service takes on very different dynamics, with it's own REAL limits)? How about the guy who changes the oil in your car? If that guy thinks you are a prick, are you going to be upset? How about the cook in the restaurant you patronize? Sure, you don't want to piss that guy off, but most places do you ever even SEE the dude? Yet he brings you food that you eat and feed your family. And you would eat it even if he hated you. Yeah, ignorance taints that example some, but there is still some comparison there.

And some people would really be offended in such situations. And that's fine; I'm not trying to say that there is a right or wrong. It's an opinion. But I think that you should just think abolutit a bit. Does it really matter, in this case, with an e-busniess, if you really like the guy?

For me, it doesnt matter so much if the product is somethign I want. Yeah, I've done business with Romeo. Yeah, I support him. I've never bought battlefoam, but it's not because I think he's a jerk. He's been pleasant with me, treated me well, and he came through for me in the clutch with a deal that was very small and very important to me. I'm not trying to say that all this you read here is smoke and mirrors or just plain lies. I'm saying that I know for fact 2 things: 1) the internet is not where I go for my "facts" regard who is a jackass and who is not. Obvious reasons. 2) He's treated me well, and I will sure as rat feth treat him the same way in return.

Everyone else, make your own calls of course. But don't do yourself the disservice of jumping on some forum hatewagon for some guy who you have never dealt with, never met, and never shook his hand. Some of you have, but others certainly have not. Decide for yourselves; don't let your judgement be a reflexive action.

If you think the product sucks ass for one reason or another, don't buy it. If the product is a good solution for you and will protect your models; then what the hell does Romeo's personality have to do with keeping your minis safe? The quesiton is rhetorical, I don't need or want an answer. Just make sure you conciously agree with why you are making your decision.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, more text wall for you. What in the name of Donkey Punch feth does GW's IP got to do with us as end customers? Let me shift that a little: GW has proven itself to be MOST capable of enforcing their IP rights. How many projects have we heard tanked or strangled in the cradle because of GW's IP defense?

And GW, this multinational corporation with revenues in the tens of millions a year and a net worth of WHO knows, needs OUR hepl to defend their IP? Really?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!111!!1111111!!!!!!!11

Romeo says he is working with the relevant parties. You know one thing you can infer from that statement that is pretty solid? He ain't workin with us on it, because we are not relevant to it. Frankly, that's between him and GW. Am I saying we can't/shouldn't discuss it? Nah, that's like telling water to be dry. But after seeing some of those posts, I felt that had to be pointed out. Are you really going to let yourself get all hatestormed over something that isn't, really, even your business? Morally, mayhap. But fiscally? feth all.

edited because what the hell happened to my post???

Well, people do make choices were to buy and who to buy from many times not based on service or product... Its all part of the package... How many times you enter a store and dont feel welcomed just because store fella behaviour is not according to your espectations? and you just decide to go elsewere...
I really dont care much about it but I ussually buy more were I feel confortable, and I totally understand these agressive wars turning lots of people off... even if all are nice chaps with great services/ products.

For example when PP guy told not long ago on the official forum to a member STFU I voted with my wallet for some months... sometimes I ignore other times I dont... Miniatures and hobbies are not totally rational to me and have a big slice of emotions involved... even if pure business dont need emotions.

All the hired guns in this thread are funny. They've made about 3/4 of the posts here. I don't think I've ever seen so many before.

What's even funnier is that they're all ignoring any relevant questions aimed at both sides, and are concentrating on flaming each other. Can I be the first person to suggest that you guys take it to msn or pm or something?

As to IP, we do actually have a member who's an IP lawyer here on Dakka. I'm gonna shoot off a PM to him now, because I'm rather curious as to what he has on the matter. So if you could try not to get the thread locked until he replies (I'm looking at you Cato Sicarius! 0_0), I'd be most grateful.

I'm closing the thread for turning into another slagging match.