Right, cutting to the chase im a tau player (1500 pts) and im of the opinion that tau are not "evil" or "baddies", as they are often depicted, but i think are "good".
Any opinoins on this?

Elliotminorkid

I think tau are pretty much neutral but lean more towards good than evil. yeah they wanna sterilize humanity, (hey can you watch disney channel for 5 hours and not want to do the same?) but humanity wants to kill em off, so thats not really evil, but i wouldnt call that good. My official vote is semi-good. because they seem to be the only race that gets along with others, (kroot, vespids etc.)

They're evil mecha space commies, and I heart them.

Point, i should have added a "neutral" option to the poll lol, ahwell. but yeah i think they are good as they are exploring the universe and trying to more forward, not merciesly chargeing throughout the universe killing all in their path. Yes, they will defend themselves if attacked and call war on that race e.g orks but wont any race?

The Dreadnote wrote:They're evil mecha space commies, and I heart them.

Lmao QFT

the tau remind me of gundam

Neither. They're in it for themselves. Like every other race in the universe.

Egads, another good/evil debate.

Framed from the basic human perspective I would submit that most of the acts of the Tau Empire are reasonable to call 'good.' Certainly there are some inklings about how they tend to enforce their concept of The Greater Good on other races that suggests a darker side, but in the overarching grimdark of 40k they do appear to count on the side of the forces of light.

That said, nobody who develops a Str 5 basic firearm for their troops could possibly be good! Those jerks are just too darn effecient at blasting my Raiders and Ravagers from the sky - thank gawd they're pansies so my Wytches can cleave through whole armies of them without much Dark Lance support.

So we have "forces of light" now?

If so, then its quite funny to put Tau into the Good category.
Because, in GW charts, they have to go in this case with the Eldar and the Imperium alongside.
Eldar+Tau may fit, but humans + Tau is just wrong.

I think the neutral category is really needed in such threads.

IIRC 'official' allies plan of GW:
'forces of darkness' :

- chaos demons
- chaos 'spase mariens'
- (traitor IG)
- dark eldar
- necrons
- tyranids
- Orks

'forces of light' :

- adeptus astartes ( SM, BA, BT, DA, SW )
- Imperial Guard
- Inquisition ( DH, WH, GK, SoB )
- Eldar
- Tau

See the problem?
Suggested Change:

FoD ( forced to darkness ):

- chaos demons
- chaos marines
- dark eldar
- ( traitor guard )

FoN ( force of neutrality ):

- Orks
- Tyranids
- Tau
- Inquisition
- necrons

FoL ( forced into the light ):

- space marines
- imperial guard
- GK
- SoB
- Eldar

Reasoning:


#chaos demons are the minions of their masters but also a natural choice for 'evil'.
#chaos marines have turned against their own race and will be also the usual 'evil' choice with that past.
#dark eldar, the old style pre fall eldar of selfishness. Could be a part of neutral too but i think they are better put into 'evil'.
# the other IG. Like csm, best bet on 'evil'.

#orks want to partake in every fight, and theyre created for that, so cant put them into any good or evil slot.
#nids. Hungry and a serious threat to all life. But 'evil' ?
#Tau. The needed youngsters of 40k and they will learn what grimdark means... but i believe theyre not grown up yet so still chance
to go either way ( good / evil ).
#Inquisition. Shady organization that should work on the positive side but will commit anything they claim as 'necessary' for their 'job'.
Neutral may cover the vast difference in their members and ordos best.
#necrons. Could be 'evil', but as "robots/undead" they fill the role as angry grave-guard and i would wait until we know more before
putting them into 'evil'.

#the astartes. Obviously the saviours of the galaxy.
#the imperial guard. If you still fight with a mag-light in your hands against that super-awesome monster of megadeath, how should i
not place them into 'good' ?
#GK. anti demon = mirrioring an 'evil' choice.
#SoB. so cute. must be 'good'. Seriously, those sisters do more than fight and who calls the Doc's 'evil'?
#Eldar. They may not deserve this slot. Could be 'neutral', since they cant be bothered to fulfill their role.


Go find your Tau....

As far as 40k goes, Tau are "Good". Which is funny, because they could make perfectly acceptable villains in other settings.

1hadhq wrote:So we have "forces of light" now?

A no less unreasonable classification then referring to anything as good, evil, or neutral. It's all subjective.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:As far as 40k goes, Tau are "Good". Which is funny, because they could make perfectly acceptable villains in other settings.

Thats cuz 40k is so damn grimdark!

i kinda thinks orks are evil, maybe borderline evil. True they might be too simple minded to be able to choose. But since they're blood thirsty, sadistic, they keep slaves (grots), and they're nihilistic, (which i consider evil) im gonna say orks are evil. Same with necrons, killing all life = evil. Then again as thor pointed out its all subjective. It could be argued that Necrons are good, maybe life doesnt deserve to live hmm? Living things blew it, and Necrons are just divine wrath.

There is no good or evil, especially not in the 40k universe. Its You and your people, versus "them" and "their.... people."

Spoken like a true eldar, amirite?

I love that comment! In just about every show/movie/whatever, the imperium is WAY worse than the main villians, and are considered the paragons of virtue and a last holdout of light in the dark, grim universe.

Sums up just how grimdark 40K is.

sniperjolly wrote:I love that comment! In just about every show/movie/whatever, the imperium is WAY worse than the main villians, and are considered the paragons of virtue and a last holdout of light in the dark, grim universe.

Sums up just how grimdark 40K is.

I think the reason the imperium is considered "good"/ paragons of virtue etc. is because we as 40k players are human, and as humans our survival is a good thing to us. Unless your really misanthropic. I havent ever played 40k with a tau, eldar or whatever yet. It would be cool to find a hot eldar chick that plays 40k though, its probably less rare than a human female that plays 40k LMAO.

The only good commie is a dead one.

lol You sir are a true-blue American! <-tears of unbridled patriotism!

Now im gonna go and watch nascar in my trailer while i drink mountain dew and paint my american themed Ig army.

I actually think a patriotic/redneck IG force would look pretty darn awesome.

Stars and bars FTW!!! YEEE HAAW!

The Tau are incompatible with Humanity, as are all of the xenos. The alien does not think like a human, nor desire what a human desires. When you talk of your fellow man there is evil, when you talk of the alien there is only the way the creature acts and the threat that it poses to you.

They must be extinguished. As soon as more dangerous foes have been destroyed the armada of Man will wash them from the stars.

LoboFuego wrote:

The only good commie is a dead one.

Hell yeah! Go blue!!!

Not all Humans are steralised by the Tau. Read their codex sometime . . . Humans usually enter in the Earth-caste area. Only the annoyingly rebellious ones are steralised.

"Listen here Xenos Filth!!! you put that electro-neuterizer anywhere near me, and I'm gonna go black crusade on your like ugly on a grox!!!"

The cities of death book mentions Tau actually executing subjugated human populations on captured planets during their second sphere expansion. The Greater Good is a lie.

i read the codex once

this is all i read




"Kadosh, hail the glorius tau empire may its far seeing leaders protect us, death to humanity may we forever be free from their nine rings of deception."

Everyone believes they're good in this universe, except for chaos because they're the special kid in the corner. It's all a matter of perspective really and if I had to say anything I'd go with Evil mainly because they seem largely intolerant of anyone they can't convert >_>

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:Everyone believes they're good in this universe, except for chaos because they're the special kid in the corner. It's all a matter of perspective really and if I had to say anything I'd go with Evil mainly because they seem largely intolerant of anyone they can't convert >_>

Im not so sure everyone believes they are good. Orks, for example, probably don't even understand the difference between good and bad. So they're incapable of believing themselves to be good.

And then there's the Eldar. I don't think they believe they are "good," they just believe they are "better than YOU" and that they have infinitely more of a right to exist than any of the other races. As such they don't even blink when they feel they need to slaughter an entire world or even solar system of human worlds just to prevent those humans from ever being capable of harming them in the future. And if they would go to those lengths, odds are a farseer saw the future and the price his craftworld would pay if they DIDN'T kill all those innocent people.

Tau originally in and of by themselves are pretty neutrals going by the codex, it is the commie Ethereals are the real evil bastards. Fraked up the Tau as a species real good with the genetic segregation with the castes. Made bureaucrats the dominant caste, even Chaos and IoM ain't that evil. For other species the "convert or die" messege alone make them evil, given the "die" part was use on several of them.

If Tau are commies

then Space Marine are Nazis. they purge every xeno!

It's not the first time that the Imperium of Man is compared to Nazis. And in some way, it's correct, yeah...however, the grimdark truth in the 41st millenium is, that they have a reason to want to purge every xenos.

- Tyranids want to devour the galaxy --> kill 'em all.
- Necrons want to kill every living thing --> kill 'em all.
- Orks wage war on every enemy they can find --> kill 'em all.
- Chaos...traitors who want to destabilize and destroy the Imperium --> kill 'em all.
- Eldar are sometimes allies but more commonly betray humans for their own good, resulting in the deaths of servants of the Emperor --> kill 'em all.
- Tau did nothing bad as long as they kept to themselves, but their expansion of either killing humans or talking them into abandoning the Imperium and therefore destabilizing the Imperium, making it more vulnerable to other enemies --> kill 'em all.

Did I forget anyone? Every race of xenos wants a piece of the Imperium. I guess only a few Eldar craftsworlds or even only single Eldar could live with humans as allies - the rest of xenos and traitors wants to harm the Imperium for one reason or another.

This "purge the xenos" thing is something learned by experience.

Oh, and more on topic: I guess the Tau are not as evil as some other races, but they are not the greater-good-people they say they are. In a way I think they're worse than the Imperium, because they supress their people with this pheromone subtlety. Seems like cheating to me. The Imperium uses religion, okay, but we HAVE a (semi)living god-emperor, for feth's sake! Strongest psyker in the galaxy!

Nah,come on guys
Am no Tau player neither do i like them,but atleast they give you the choice to either join the empire of be killed.

Granted, that's true. And according to their codex, they respect races like the Kroot, who willingly joined the Empire. Kroot warriors are respected for their skills. An interesting point is, that the Kroot's carnivorous/cannibalistic habits disgust the Tau; however, the Tau don't force the Kroot to stop it or simply threaten them with something so they stop it - they simply hope that being near to the Tau society and the Tau culture will show them that their tribal behaviour is inferior to the Greater Good way of living. Which means, don't eat your relatives.

This approach is as sensible and diplomatic and respectful as it gets around 40k.

However, as already stated, the races and people that don't want to join the Empire are killed. I can see the reasoning behind this - the guy who doesn't want to join the Empire is very probably an enemy of some kind or might cause harm to the Empire - but preventive genocide is not really something I'd file under "good".

They are not perfectly good, but as good as it gets in 40k, I think. Better than 'nids, 'crons, chaos, orks, dark eldar...maybe better than Eldar, not sure about that. (Eldar wanting their planets back ask you to leave and kill you only if you don't do it...somewhat comparable to "join or die".) Maybe comparable to the Imperium of Man, maybe slightly better.

PS: This suddendly reminds me of Eddie Izzard...."join or die" is basically the same as "CAKE OR DEATH?!" (The Imperium of Man is out of cake, though, so your choice is "OR DEATH", of course. )

LunaHound wrote:
If Tau are commies

then Space Marine are Nazis. they purge every xeno!

Nah, the Tau are just as dirty but do have much better information control covering up the purgings.

Orks know the diffrence between good and evil, good is a unending war and evil is everyother posaible outcome of a conflict


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also paly agianst the fish'eads all the time they are evil incarnate and shoot too well

Ehm... I really resent the arguement that Tau are Commies

Since when is a CASTE SYSTEM a Communist idea? The division of Labour was something Marx was AGAINST

They strike me as far more inspired by Confucian ideas...

But anyhoo, as for good/evil: Neutral

They are misguided and whilst their ideology seems harmonious and good; it's implied that internally the Empire is fragile; the Caste system means you are limited to a certain life by your birth right, breeding is controlled... the Etherals CONTROL PEOPLE via pheremones...

Generally Tau society is opressive because they seek order, and their naeivity when formulating their ideology left them unprepared for necessities such as sterilization... and general murder.

When I read the Ciaphas Cain novel where he encountered the Tau: They seemed like a terrifying opponent: A cold, expressionless calculating military machine (though you could always stop them from shooting you by yelling "THIS DOES NOT SERVE THE GREATER GOOD!")

I think tau, the Imperium, and eldar or the only races that could concieveably reach a point of peace in the 40k universe, (if they could manage to kill off every other race but themselves). Where as the other factions of 40k don't seem to like the whole peace idea. Maybe orks, if the brainboyz could come back and keep em in line. Also i think orks probably can't understand peace or care about good and evil since they were bred soley for killing and war. Maybe orks are'nt "evil" since they're just doing what they were designed to do?

I voted "good" for tau simply because if they could somehow manage to get everyone to buy into the whole greater good deal, they could achieve peace and harmony throughout the galaxy, maybe even without killing every other species. But thats not any fun is it?

The best way to explain orks is that they are like a machine left on and no one know where the off switch is, they were created to fight the necrons and with the old onez gone( they are the brain boyz) no one has the real know how to make them obey a nongreenskin, so peace is inconcivable to them cause thier function dosnt need it.

In 40k there is no real good or bad, just different points of views. I am a tau player and like them because they are coalition of different alien species as compared to usual single species armies. The whole join us or die thing can be considered to be evil, but with the 40k verse this is not to bad, as they are giving you a choice to join them (there is always a choice, sometimes the other choice really sucks). I do have one question, other than the dawn of war computer game, is there any other record of the Tau sterilizing humans? I have read a good amount of the tau fluff and have not found any other references to this act.

Henners91 wrote:Ehm... I really resent the argument that Tau are Commies

Since when is a CASTE SYSTEM a Communist idea? The division of Labour was something Marx was AGAINST

Since Marx and Engels actually.

They are misguided and whilst their ideology seems harmonious and good; it's implied that internally the Empire is fragile; the Caste system means you are limited to a certain life by your birth right, breeding is controlled... the Etherals CONTROL PEOPLE via pheremones...

If the Tau were good they wouldn't need to be control (regardless of method use) or be divided by caste.

Have there been any tau that has been corrupted by chaos? Are they some how immune?? But they want to sterilize humanity....
So much for the greater good.

They're not immune, but being a small race less attuned to the warp than humans or eldar and under a strictly regimented lifestyle they're not really the type to have daemons associating with them. They wouldn't get anywhere.

guardpiper wrote:In 40k there is no real good or bad, just different points of views. I am a tau player and like them because they are coalition of different alien species as compared to usual single species armies. The whole join us or die thing can be considered to be evil, but with the 40k verse this is not to bad, as they are giving you a choice to join them (there is always a choice, sometimes the other choice really sucks). I do have one question, other than the dawn of war computer game, is there any other record of the Tau sterilizing humans? I have read a good amount of the tau fluff and have not found any other references to this act.

Not to sound repetitive but do you own the Cities of Death rule book? There is a story in there (infact the cover art is a scene from this) about the Tau invading an imperial world (Nimbosa) when the imperium's resources were diverted to battle the newly arrived Hive Fleet Kraken in Ultima Segmentum. Basically they show up and beat down the small defense force left on the planet, and then begin a mass extermination of the planet's populace. When a stronger defense (Vostroyan Firstborns) is mustered, the two forces duke it out in the city streets for weeks. The tau inevitably win and rather than offer surrender, the Tau commander, one Commander Brightsword, orders the total annihilation of all remaining humans. Well eventually The Black Templars space marines arrived to reinforce the humans on planet Nimbosa, only to find them all slaughtered, none of their equipment salvaged, and no trace of the Tau.

Apparently they didn't really want the world in the first place. That's a whole lot of innocent people dead for the Tau to just decide not to take the planet after all.

So not quite "sterilization of humans", so much as the "sterilization of a planet of humans."

Bonus: Scene from the battle on planet Nimbosa.



I don't believe in good or evil, but there's some pretty compelling evidence they aren't good. Wish you could go back and change your vote?

/thread

Falconlance wrote:

guardpiper wrote:In 40k there is no real good or bad, just different points of views. I am a tau player and like them because they are coalition of different alien species as compared to usual single species armies. The whole join us or die thing can be considered to be evil, but with the 40k verse this is not to bad, as they are giving you a choice to join them (there is always a choice, sometimes the other choice really sucks). I do have one question, other than the dawn of war computer game, is there any other record of the Tau sterilizing humans? I have read a good amount of the tau fluff and have not found any other references to this act.

Not to sound repetitive but do you own the Cities of Death rule book? There is a story in there (infact the cover art is a scene from this) about the Tau invading an imperial world (Nimbosa) when the imperium's resources were diverted to battle the newly arrived Hive Fleet Kraken in Ultima Segmentum. Basically they show up and beat down the small defense force left on the planet, and then begin a mass extermination of the planet's populace. When a stronger defense (Vostroyan Firstborns) is mustered, the two forces duke it out in the city streets for weeks. The tau inevitably win and rather than offer surrender, the Tau commander, one Commander Brightsword, orders the total annihilation of all remaining humans. Well eventually The Black Templars space marines arrived to reinforce the humans on planet Nimbosa, only to find them all slaughtered, none of their equipment salvaged, and no trace of the Tau.

Apparently they didn't really want the world in the first place. That's a whole lot of innocent people dead for the Tau to just decide not to take the planet after all.

So not quite "sterilization of humans", so much as the "sterilization of a planet of humans."

Bonus: Scene from the battle on planet Nimbosa.



I don't believe in good or evil, but there's some pretty compelling evidence they aren't good. Wish you could go back and change your vote?

/thread

Voted GOOD. I am a Tau player so I will attempt to combat the propaganda of the Imperium of (hu)MAN and spread the news of the Greater Good (for all).


To play troublemaker and devil's advocate.

1st Point: That was one incident with one commander. To base entire Tau philosophy on one over-reacting commander is crazy. Now, if this was an IMPERIAL commander, we could justifiably say that this was an evil act because the Imperium has the all standing creed of "Kill the Xeno!" Commander Brightsword has already been censured for his brazen acts and that's all that will be said about that. (Re: Read Kill Team).

2nd Point: Understand the Tau philosophy. We do not see territory in the normal sense. Protracted defense is undesired and we will voluntarily relocate if there is a significant force incoming. Unlike the Gue'la Armored Men, we supporters of the Greater Good do not believe in "heroic" last stands. We would rather use those resources and dedicate them to other arena's of combat. Just because the Tau left the planet doesn't necessarily mean that they never wanted it in the first place. Tau will leave, then come back at a later time.

3rd Point: To say that every human who resists the Greater Good will be sterilized is a blatant lie! For instance, would you sterilize a passive dog who follows your commands? No. Would you sterilize a dog who shows aggression towards any and all attempts at trying to train it? Yes. Those gue'la who are all out resisting the Greater Good and blowing up, harassing, killing Tau and their helpers, of course you have to use extreme methods. Those humans who willingly accept the Greater Good will be welcomed and found occupations best fitting the needs of the Good.

Don't believe the outlandish lies of Imperial propagandists! The Greater Good is far more desirable than serving an uncaring, distant, Emperor and his greedy, self-serving, demagogues!

In our world settings, Lawful Evil. In 40k....... Neutral Good.

Here's the rundown:

Average IG: Neutral Good. Usually they work for the good of humanity, no matter what (unless they're pissing themselves)

Average SM: Lawful Evil. Bring order to the universe by choking the gak out of it (a la Darth Vader)

Chaos: (obviously) Chaotic Evil. Do I need to explain why?

Inquisition: Lawful Neutral. Obey the law whether it's right or wrong.

Tyranids: True Neutral. They're just hungry!!

Orks: Chaotic Neutral. Might be your friend, Might declare waaagh on your entire planet. They don't care.

Dark Eldar: Neutral Evil. They're just evil for evil's sake.

Eldar: Lawful Good, but they're donkey-caves about it. 'Lawful' however, only seems to apply to their race. To anyone else they're True Neutral.

Necrons: Neutral Evil. They're Neutral, but what they do is really fethed up.


So are the Tau good guys? Not to us.

Doombot001 wrote:

Falconlance wrote:

guardpiper wrote:In 40k there is no real good or bad, just different points of views. I am a tau player and like them because they are coalition of different alien species as compared to usual single species armies. The whole join us or die thing can be considered to be evil, but with the 40k verse this is not to bad, as they are giving you a choice to join them (there is always a choice, sometimes the other choice really sucks). I do have one question, other than the dawn of war computer game, is there any other record of the Tau sterilizing humans? I have read a good amount of the tau fluff and have not found any other references to this act.

Not to sound repetitive but do you own the Cities of Death rule book? There is a story in there (infact the cover art is a scene from this) about the Tau invading an imperial world (Nimbosa) when the imperium's resources were diverted to battle the newly arrived Hive Fleet Kraken in Ultima Segmentum. Basically they show up and beat down the small defense force left on the planet, and then begin a mass extermination of the planet's populace. When a stronger defense (Vostroyan Firstborns) is mustered, the two forces duke it out in the city streets for weeks. The tau inevitably win and rather than offer surrender, the Tau commander, one Commander Brightsword, orders the total annihilation of all remaining humans. Well eventually The Black Templars space marines arrived to reinforce the humans on planet Nimbosa, only to find them all slaughtered, none of their equipment salvaged, and no trace of the Tau.

Apparently they didn't really want the world in the first place. That's a whole lot of innocent people dead for the Tau to just decide not to take the planet after all.

So not quite "sterilization of humans", so much as the "sterilization of a planet of humans."

Bonus: Scene from the battle on planet Nimbosa.



I don't believe in good or evil, but there's some pretty compelling evidence they aren't good. Wish you could go back and change your vote?

/thread

Voted GOOD. I am a Tau player so I will attempt to combat the propaganda of the Imperium of (hu)MAN and spread the news of the Greater Good (for all).


To play troublemaker and devil's advocate.

1st Point: That was one incident with one commander. To base entire Tau philosophy on one over-reacting commander is crazy. Now, if this was an IMPERIAL commander, we could justifiably say that this was an evil act because the Imperium has the all standing creed of "Kill the Xeno!" Commander Brightsword has already been censured for his brazen acts and that's all that will be said about that. (Re: Read Kill Team).

2nd Point: Understand the Tau philosophy. We do not see territory in the normal sense. Protracted defense is undesired and we will voluntarily relocate if there is a significant force incoming. Unlike the Gue'la Armored Men, we supporters of the Greater Good do not believe in "heroic" last stands. We would rather use those resources and dedicate them to other arena's of combat. Just because the Tau left the planet doesn't necessarily mean that they never wanted it in the first place. Tau will leave, then come back at a later time.

3rd Point: To say that every human who resists the Greater Good will be sterilized is a blatant lie! For instance, would you sterilize a passive dog who follows your commands? No. Would you sterilize a dog who shows aggression towards any and all attempts at trying to train it? Yes. Those gue'la who are all out resisting the Greater Good and blowing up, harassing, killing Tau and their helpers, of course you have to use extreme methods. Those humans who willingly accept the Greater Good will be welcomed and found occupations best fitting the needs of the Good.

Don't believe the outlandish lies of Imperial propagandists! The Greater Good is far more desirable than serving an uncaring, distant, Emperor and his greedy, self-serving, demagogues!

urge to retort in a similar role-play-ey fashion, rising....

@ Falconlance, I do not own a copy of cities of death. While I did know about brightsword, as Doombot001 said, this was a rouge commander, and not the norm of the Tau. If I remember my Last Chances correctly, the Tau brought them in to kill him as they where disgusted with his actions. And I still like my answer.

Oim an Ork playa so oi will atempt to foight the proppyganda of da Impeeeryum of Oomies and talk about da Waaagh! (da Ork!).


Tah play troubleygrot and Mork's advokit.

1st Point: Dat wuz just a Ork. One Ork iznt all da Orks ya nutta. Now, dat duznt meen dis Ork was doin wut da Orks dunt normly do, but at leest dem squishy Oomies isnt muckin about roight? Nadreg's a fat flash git an 'e probly wunt even be in da new codeks (Re: Reed Codex: Orks).

2nd Point: Know wots wot. Orks is da boss of everyfing. Wots yoo gunna do when deres no boys iz yoo gunna git more boys an chop em up. Wez not sum weedy Oomie wot wants da be loik a grot and muck about. We want ta stomp da ooniverse flat ya stoopis zogger. When da Orks run its so dey can come back fer anuva go, see?. Green wil always beet da uvers in da end, unless we fink uv sumfink else ta do.

3rd Point: To say dat Orks iz not da meenist and da greenist iz a lie! Fer instunse, iz da Tauz da meenist an da greenist? No. Iz Orks da meenist and da greenist? Yes. Da Tauz an da Elders an da Oomies is always cryin loik liddle grots an dey usully isnt green neever. Sum uv dem is green but deys still not greena den da Orks so deys not da greenist no matta eever way.

LISSUN UP WEH DA ORKS IS TALKING! WEZ GONNA CHOP YOO UP AN JUMP UP AN DOWN ON DA BITZ WOTS LEFT!

Orkeosaurus wrote:Oim an Ork playa so oi will atempt to foight the proppyganda of da Impeeeryum of Oomies and talk about da Waaagh! (da Ork!).


Tah play troubleygrot and Mork's advokit.

1st Point: Dat wuz just a Ork. One Ork iznt all da Orks ya nutta. Now, dat duznt meen dis Ork was doin wut da Orks dunt normly do, but at leest dem squishy Oomies isnt muckin about roight? Nadreg's a fat flash git an 'e probly wunt even be in da new codeks (Re: Reed Codex: Orks).

2nd Point: Know wots wot. Orks is da boss of everyfing. Wots yoo gunna do when deres no boys iz yoo gunna git more boys an chop em up. Wez not sum weedy Oomie wot wants da be loik a grot and muck about. We want ta stomp da ooniverse flat ya stoopis zogger. When da Orks run its so dey can come back fer anuva go, see?. Green wil always beet da uvers in da end, unless we fink uv sumfink else ta do.

3rd Point: To say dat Orks iz not da meenist and da greenist iz a lie! Fer instunse, iz da Tauz da meenist an da greenist? No. Iz Orks da meenist and da greenist? Yes. Da Tauz an da Elders an da Oomies is always cryin loik liddle grots an dey usully isnt green neever. Sum uv dem is green but deys still not greena den da Orks so deys not da greenist no matta eever way.

LISSUN UP WEH DA ORKS IS TALKING! WEZ GONNA CHOP YOO UP AN JUMP UP AN DOWN ON DA BITZ WOTS LEFT!

This makes one of my top 10 posts. Ever.

Honestly, the Tau Empire is just as bad as the imperium. They brainwash, massacre, and hate other races just as much as any Imperial force would. They choose a few 'useful' friends (Kroot, Vespid) that can complete tasks for them.

Tau kill Orks- Tau evil!

They are xenos scum and are to be purged along with the rest of them.

(Also, they mess with each others heads. Ethereals are creepy. And they enslave other races.)

Orkeosaurus wrote:Oim an Ork playa so oi will atempt to foight the proppyganda of da Impeeeryum of Oomies and talk about da Waaagh! (da Ork!).


Tah play troubleygrot and Mork's advokit.

1st Point: Dat wuz just a Ork. One Ork iznt all da Orks ya nutta. Now, dat duznt meen dis Ork was doin wut da Orks dunt normly do, but at leest dem squishy Oomies isnt muckin about roight? Nadreg's a fat flash git an 'e probly wunt even be in da new codeks (Re: Reed Codex: Orks).

2nd Point: Know wots wot. Orks is da boss of everyfing. Wots yoo gunna do when deres no boys iz yoo gunna git more boys an chop em up. Wez not sum weedy Oomie wot wants da be loik a grot and muck about. We want ta stomp da ooniverse flat ya stoopis zogger. When da Orks run its so dey can come back fer anuva go, see?. Green wil always beet da uvers in da end, unless we fink uv sumfink else ta do.

3rd Point: To say dat Orks iz not da meenist and da greenist iz a lie! Fer instunse, iz da Tauz da meenist an da greenist? No. Iz Orks da meenist and da greenist? Yes. Da Tauz an da Elders an da Oomies is always cryin loik liddle grots an dey usully isnt green neever. Sum uv dem is green but deys still not greena den da Orks so deys not da greenist no matta eever way.

LISSUN UP WEH DA ORKS IS TALKING! WEZ GONNA CHOP YOO UP AN JUMP UP AN DOWN ON DA BITZ WOTS LEFT!

Have an internet. You earned it.

When compared to Imperium - Tau = Good

Tau don't kill everyone, just most people which in 40k terms makes them good. If we put all partisanship aside (I play GK and CSM) Tau are undoubtedly the 'goodest' or least evil.

Madgod wrote:When compared to Imperium - Tau = Good

Tau don't kill everyone, just most people which in 40k terms makes them good. If we put all partisanship aside (I play GK and CSM) Tau are undoubtedly the 'goodest' or least evil.

Unless you count fluff races, like slann. Who seem to be rather benevolent and non hostile nowadays, and keep to themselves rather than killing everybody. Or jokero or whatever they're called.

Aren't slann subversive, infilitrating societies from the top???

Anywho, what about the supposed mind-control devices given by the Tau to the Vespid? Or the wierd way in which Etherals control others?

IIRC, the slann used to be warlike but have recently withdrawn to a peaceful life of seclusion and meditation. They were made by the old ones, they're like frog people. I think tau might be their descendants.

Norwulf wrote:IIRC, the slann used to be warlike but have recently withdrawn to a peaceful life of seclusion and meditation. They were made by the old ones, they're like frog people. I think tau might be their descendants.

I recall that tau are descended from quadrepedal herbivores that rapidly evolved during a warpstorm. Of course I have also read in Xenology that the Tau were created by the Eldar, who had stolen the queen of an insectoid race (the Q'Orl) and used her DNA to create the Tau ethereals. The Q'Orl possess the same crystalline structure in their carapaces as the ethereals do in their forehead, and the queen controls her hive via pheromones, just as the etherals manipulate the other castes.

The imperial magus performing the dissections speculated that the purpose for the eldar creating the tau was to use them as an autonomous chaos-resistant weapon.

I would argue that Tau are good; by my understanding they wish to spread peace throughout the galaxy and offer any race they encounter a chance to join their empire. Though their ideology is somewhat naïve, the Tau are willing to spill blood for the Greater Good.


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I would argue that Tau are good; by my understanding they wish to spread peace throughout the galaxy and offer any race they encounter a chance to join their empire. Though their ideology is somewhat naïve, the Tau are willing to spill blood for the Greater Good.

Owain wrote:I would argue that Tau are good; by my understanding they wish to spread peace throughout the galaxy and offer any race they encounter a chance to join their empire. Though their ideology is somewhat naïve, the Tau are willing to spill blood for the Greater Good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would argue that Tau are good; by my understanding they wish to spread peace throughout the galaxy and offer any race they encounter a chance to join their empire. Though their ideology is somewhat naïve, the Tau are willing to spill blood for the Greater Good.

Propaganda sunk in deep on this one.

Falconlance wrote:

Owain wrote:I would argue that Tau are good; by my understanding they wish to spread peace throughout the galaxy and offer any race they encounter a chance to join their empire. Though their ideology is somewhat naïve, the Tau are willing to spill blood for the Greater Good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would argue that Tau are good; by my understanding they wish to spread peace throughout the galaxy and offer any race they encounter a chance to join their empire. Though their ideology is somewhat naïve, the Tau are willing to spill blood for the Greater Good.

Propaganda sunk in deep on this one.

See?! It's working already!

(Falconlance: Dude, you're pretty dirty. )

Well it really depends on whether you mean their morals or actions. Both the Imperium and Tau have the righ morals but the Tau go about things a bit better than the Imperium.

Tau- want to bring the galaxy together and stop the war- this must show they aren't bad, but there methods sometimes involvle killing other species.
Imperium of man- want to protect their people (a reasonable thing) but do a lot of killing, their own people and aliens.

In the end I think Tau are about as good as you can be in the situation. When your surrounded by demon worshipers, eight foot tall xenophobic killling machines and swarms of planet eating bugs, you sometimes have to resort to evil actions.

You also need to remeber that as Tau are one of the smallest race (in numbers) they need to prevent attacks rather than stop them when they come. If they didn't avoid rebelions and other problems in the way they do it's very possible they would have been entirely wiped out.

And I'm not just defending the army I play because I collect BA and have never played Tau.

For me its easy: they may be wanting to kill me, so I will kill them first, just in case...

Tau are neither good or evil.....they're not real

he he...you can't catch meeeeee.....

Tau are clearly the nicest of the races in 40k... but that's not saying that much.
Why are Eldar considered "good", they don't do anything but try to survive and some try to kill orks (biel-tan). They just sit there and try to reproduce. (with all the pleasure cults they had you'd think that would be easy ).
The Squats are clearly the only good race. I can't remember the last time they went on a killing spree

fludit wrote:Tau are clearly the nicest of the races in 40k... but that's not saying that much.
Why are Eldar considered "good", they don't do anything but try to survive and some try to kill orks (biel-tan). They just sit there and try to reproduce. (with all the pleasure cults they had you'd think that would be easy ).
The Squats are clearly the only good race. I can't remember the last time they went on a killing spree

I don't anyone who really understands the Eldar can call them "good." And I'm almost certain they don't consider themselves to be "good." I would think that to them, to believe in things like "good" and "evil" would be naive and foolish in a universe where nothing is black and white, its all shades of grey.

Falconlance wrote:

I don't anyone who really understands the Eldar can call them "good." And I'm almost certain they don't consider themselves to be "good." I would think that to them, to believe in things like "good" and "evil" would be naive and foolish in a universe where nothing is black and white, its all shades of grey.

Ahhh, Grey space elfs

So:
-evil elfs in space
-neutral elfs in space
-no good elfs in space

but still Tau neither neutral nor good.
Option left = evil space blue-grey commie ants.

Tau are neither. They fight who they need to and occasionally who they want to remove from the universe because they've been bad.

There evil just trying to get everyone to join them with there so called "greater good" and if they dont they go ahead and "try" to conquer you cause its for there greater good

Who is to say what races are good or evil? i mean from different points of view comes different opinions of good and evil.

The only good tau is a dead tau and one day they will have an uprising just as the Imperium for their "good." You can say the orks are evil all you want, but at least they're honest with what they are. The Tau and Imperium murder just as many or more people than just about any faction from a day to day stand point.

Cheif Librarian Vaako wrote:Who is to say what races are good or evil? i mean from different points of view comes different opinions of good and evil.

Thats true have to agree there, but I dont like them lol


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Delephont wrote:Tau are neither good or evil.....they're not real

he he...you can't catch meeeeee.....

And have to agree with this, its just fun to compare them to reality's views and to argue keeps life fresh

No poll option for greater good? (Um, has this joke been done here yet? Couldn't be bothered to read another good/evil debate.)

Ya, they're not like the inquisition who kills you if you say no. They aren't really good or evil. I guess they're on the good side of neutral.

Tau and Eldar are basically the only factions that won't immediately try to kill, enslave or eat anyone they meet.

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau and Eldar are basically the only factions that won't immediately try to kill, enslave or eat anyone they meet.

So its good to be manipulated ( pointy eared space dwellers ) or nerfed to death with a "greatar good" ( blue-grey promotion team )?

Maybe sometimes its better to be killed....

Or did you mean eldar and tau do just kill/enslave/eat you later?
.....could be right. We dont know what they eat....

Ok. I've been ready this topic, and I must ask: What is this "good" in which you speak of?

they arn't EVIL like necrons and chaos...just wanting everything dead

they just look out for themselves, like eldar, but purely because everything is taken from humanities point of view, any race that dosnt think the emperor is the dogs b*****s, is at least a bit evil

i dont think they are simply in it for themselves. They even assimilate other races like humans. SOme former IG have even been known to switch sides. In fact I would say they are the most "GOOD" army in the game. THey are out for change and peace not merciless conquest. They wish to make ideological and phylosophical changes.

The Tau lie to and medically manipulate it's peoples, so that is evil. But by and large the take better care of their population than the imperium.

As far as good, there is no good.
There is only WAR!!

Gorechild wrote:they arn't EVIL like necrons and chaos...just wanting everything dead

they just look out for themselves, like eldar, but purely because everything is taken from humanities point of view, any race that dosnt think the emperor is the dogs b*****s, is at least a bit evil

dont worry, i always tell my fieends who collect imperium that they are the dogs b***s

the main problem with alot of the fluff, although amazing, is that it is all from the imperiums point of view, i remember reading the old eldar codex, the fluff is all from the human point of view.

the best way to look at the good and evil debate is the race's intent, whether live to survive or live to destroy

good:
terran empire
eldar
tau and there allies

evil:
all chaos
necron

neutral:
orks
tyranid
cark eldar

Wait didnt farsight go 'evil'? or just realise that the universe is one be screw over?

In my opinion, the Tau are basically communistical british empirists. only fishy, quoting my FLGS's manager

"right, so there are like 4 casts of Tau, in the beginning. The water tau sat around in the ocean beating th Bulls**t out of whoever was stupid enough to try it, the earth caste sat in their massive fortresses of stone, defending against the Fire caste. The Air caste went around selling spears and arrows to all the rest of them blokes. the suddenly a big space thingy of the imperialist scum (He's a chaos player) falls down. one of the fire caste walks up to this thing and jabs it with his spear. so it opens up skins him alive and pulls out his brain, weighs it and then does the same thing to all the rest of his organs. the other guys run away, screaming their fishy heads off. So back on mars a little thing goes through to some lowly scribe. New Xenos species discovered, feudal technology, KILL NOW!!!!! so they send the blood angels, beep beeep beeeep, then the first war for armogedden starts, Beepbeepbeepbeep. they run from the planet T'au and join da fight!

about 1000 years later another scribe looking through the records see the old thing, so they send the blood angels again. around that time th second war for armageddon starts up, so they run of to that fight. ANOTHER thouasand years later a scribe finds the lost records again, Blood angels:fail Blood Angels:fail. So they send the ultra-smurfs to finish them off, boing. woahhh! huge galactic spanning empire that wasnt there before

Basically what happened was a fifth caste popped up and they said was "guysh guyh, you need to shtop fighting, and get readey for the invashion" so they run around inventing new technology, and then some weirdo discovers the warp, but because they have like no imprint on the warp. so what they do is skip through it, kind of like dolphins you know. or maybe a stone skipping on a lake. so what happened was in 2000 years they went from nailing people to crosses to galactic empire, where as we went from nailing people to crosses, to a dodgy russian space station that fell out the sky.

so the first aliens the tau came across where the Vespid, living on a gas planet in huge bug hives. so they go up to them and say "pleash guysh, come and join the greater good!" " bu the vespids are like "no, in fact, what we'd like to do is rip your head off eat your brains and then lay eggs in your head cavities" so the tau go "ok, you see that hive there" "ohh yeah, our most sacred hive?" "Fiiiiiirrrreeee!" KAAAAABBBBBOOOOOM "you know what, suddenly we'd LOVE to join the greater good!"

so basically the tau are the nicest guys out there, they like every one who preaches the greater good, be they earth caste; human; or spasse donkehs! they're the british empire, scaring those who resist with big Gunz!"

thats the gist of his awsome speech, luckily, hes full of the nuggets of awsomeness!

There is no "good" and "evil" in the realm of Warhammer40k.

40K does an interesting thing in creating a fictional environment where the basis cruelest behaviors are not only acceptable, but are necessary for survival. The Imperium exists as a fascist empire that is extremely xenophobic. It performs genocide, wages war, and enslaves populations. If it didn’t it would not likely survive in the 40K universe.

If humankind was as open and permissive in 40K as it actually exist, could you image us lasting long? Khorne worshippers suing for religious prosecution, PETA protesting killing tyranids, and rouge pyskers destroying whole planets because witch hunters wouldn’t exist. The imperium is the way it is for survival sake.

The Tau are just as bad, but lack many of the reasons the imperium has. It is, embrace of the greater good or die, and while then don’t exterminate aliens (as long as they play ball), they do force them into becoming an exploited second-class citizens. The Tau are not as nearly as threatened as humans are by having their society destroyed by a chaos revolt, pyskers inevitably dooming the planet, or daemonic invasion; but they operate as the imperial does. They deal in propaganda just as much as the imperium and allow for nothing to contradict their core principals. In fact I could make a pretty good argument that the imperium is more opened minded then the Tau empire because their diversity of contradicting beliefs and methods, best exhibited in the Inquisitor background. Whereas in the Tau fluff everyone must conform to the exact same dogma. Plus the ethereals use mind control to keep their people in line along with their bug buddies.

Humans also have more personal freedom; well some of them, humans can become merchants, farmers, rogue traders, and other such professions. Tau have the career dictated by birth. If you’re a fire caste member just try playing the consciousness objector card and you will be executed as a traitor. You also face the death penalty for mating outside your caste. Tau might not be sacrificing people to their gods, but I would hardly bestow the title of “good guys” to them.

Just another thought on how GWS managed to get its background under the radar. Imagine a kid explaining his space marine army to his parent; “I play space marines, they are a genetic pure army of superman who work to maintain the existence of a fascist totalitarian empire in which they kill people because they have genetic diversity/ disabilities (mutants) divergent ideologies/ (heretics) or come from other cultures (aliens). I sure the majority of us are tolerant, open minded, intelligent people – why is it we have no problem taking up the role of fascist, genocidal tyrants when playing with our toys?

because we know they affect no real lives, aren't things we would accept in real life, and are an aspect of humanity many find intriguing.

The whole point of escapist role playing fantasies like this (more actual role playing games, though it obviously applies to wargames to a lesser extent too) is to explore situations, scenarios, or lives we cannot or would not want to in every day life.

Also, Imperium = fascist dictatorship. Tau Empire = communist dictatorship.

At the end of the day, they both do what must be done to survive/flourish. Difference is, Tau don't inflict nearly as much internal persecution as the Imperium of Man because they have virtually no subversive element in large part due to a lack of chaos influence.

Tau, I would best describe, as a smaller, more tolerant Imperium.

40k isn't depicted on the Good/Evil axis as most of fantasy/fiction typically is. That's why attempts to codify anything in 40k typically falls into a horribly wide rift somewhere in the middle.

It's a lot more simple if you use Order/Disorder.

Forces of the Imperium, Tau, and Eldar: Order

Chaos, Orks, Dark Eldar, Tyranids: Disorder

Necrons are probably the only neutral faction, but because their overarching order is born of destabilization of the current regimes, they're more prone to Disorder.

The Tau Empire is the future of the 40k universe (I am a devout Imperial player). But not yet....

The Defenestrator wrote:because we know they affect no real lives, aren't things we would accept in real life, and are an aspect of humanity many find intriguing.

The whole point of escapist role playing fantasies like this (more actual role playing games, though it obviously applies to wargames to a lesser extent too) is to explore situations, scenarios, or lives we cannot or would not want to in every day life.

Also, Imperium = fascist dictatorship. Tau Empire = communist dictatorship.

At the end of the day, they both do what must be done to survive/flourish. Difference is, Tau don't inflict nearly as much internal persecution as the Imperium of Man because they have virtually no subversive element in large part due to a lack of chaos influence.

I was poking fun with my comments about us playing toy tyrants, wasn’t really making a serious statement. I probably should have left a winking ork or something.

Both are fascist empires. Neither would allow any kind of opposition to the government to exist. The biggest component of fascism is that it does not permit any kind of dissent. If a human or a tau acted against, raised a grievance or criticized their empire in any way they would be terminated or “treated” – both are the same in that neither citizen has the right to challenge their government. And both have a manifest destiny that involves them taking over the whole universe. The tau might look nicer because they keep aliens alive and fight along side them, but peel back the curtain a little and you might conclude that veshid are enslaved through mind control and are being forced to fight and die for the Tau.

Humans need the emperor to survive. If he goes humanity falls to chaos and the galaxy as a whole would suffer. I am not sure the Tau need the greater good, Farsight sure doesn’t; and the Tau Etherals are sure trying to take him out before other tau realize that if they ditch their etherals they won’t immediately descend into anarchy and mass murder. The greater good might be a very usefully propaganda instrument for the Tau to perform galactic conquest – but I don’t think it is necessary for the tau species’ survival, which is exactly what the tau people are being indoctrinated to believe. You make a good point that the tau people do not go to extreme measures to control their own population as the imperium. But that is because they are being control through the etherals biologically. If tau citizens began wearing nose plugs and start rebelling the way some human planets occasionally do, I have little doubt the tau empire would match if not exceed the imperium in its ruthlessness in hammering down all dissent.

I believe the tau emerged through the manipulations of the old ones, and that may give the impression that they are forces for good. But lets not delude ourselves into thinking that they embrace such notions as freedom, independent thought, or even genuine concern for other aliens.

Grunt13 wrote:I was poking fun with my comments about us playing toy tyrants, wasn’t really making a serious statement. I probably should have left a winking ork or something.

joking or otherwise, it was still a thought worthy of consideration. So I considered it.

Grunt13 wrote:
I believe the tau emerged through the manipulations of the old ones, and that may give the impression that they are forces for good.

Not to derail the thread, but I think this is interesting. I'm not 100% up on their fluff, but I've yet to see anything indicating the old ones themselves were even 'good'. Certainly self-serving, willing to create and destroy entire races (orks are a certainty; many more are likely) to suit their needs and desires. I've yet to see them do anything considered positive, beyond trying to destroy the two foes of their time that threatened (and ultimately denied) their survival; chaos and the necrons.

They are not humans, they're aliens, so they aren't good or bad: they are different. Of course, they are more sociables than us

They're evil. They don't allow people to have their own views. Humanity is evil too. They cause more pain than they relieve people of.

The Defenestrator wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:
I believe the tau emerged through the manipulations of the old ones, and that may give the impression that they are forces for good.

Not to derail the thread, but I think this is interesting. I'm not 100% up on their fluff, but I've yet to see anything indicating the old ones themselves were even 'good'. Certainly self-serving, willing to create and destroy entire races (orks are a certainty; many more are likely) to suit their needs and desires. I've yet to see them do anything considered positive, beyond trying to destroy the two foes of their time that threatened (and ultimately denied) their survival; chaos and the necrons.

The tau really lucked out when it comes to their situation. They have a generous amount of valuable star systems in their own neat little niche. They were saved from extermination by a freak warp storm, they are a biological wonders with their caste systems, the ethereal just showed up one day on their planet and are operating with some agenda that is not even revealed to the tau (might be genetically imprinted), and they have weak warp presences that protect them from chaos influence. Just the genetic nature of the tau alone suggest someone was playing around with their genes when they where in their were running around in loin clothes and pointy sticks– who else but the old ones could and would do that?

The old ones old attempts bombed due to them falling to chaos or degrading. All the major races trace their origins to the old ones, if the tau didn’t they would not really fit into the 40K equation. With everything about the tau including the rather amazing serendipity that led their race to its current position, it is not unreasonably to think they are getting some majority interference for the old ones either directly or indirectly.

The old ones IMHO just like playing Johnny Appleseed with lifeforms.

Grunt13 wrote:who else but the old ones could and would do that?

Eldar, Necrons, the Brainboys, humans with access to Dark Age technology, Slaan, evolution, a yet unknown alien race, Tyranids (not likely in this instance), Fabius Bile (even less likely).

I'm not sure I see just what makes the Tau so genetically grand. They have pheromones that allow some of them to naturally be put in charge; that doesn't seem outlandish. Not at all for the 40k universe. Kroot gaining genetic traits through eating their prey is far more unlikely. Catachan Barking Toads exploding like a nuclear bomb is even sillier.

Especially since the Eldar and Orks are both physiologically far superior to humans, and Tau are generally inferior to humans. Aside from the Ethereal Caste they're not exceptional by any measure, and that doesn't scream "greatest geneticists the galaxy has ever known must have created them" to me.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:who else but the old ones could and would do that?

Eldar, Necrons, the Brainboys, humans with access to Dark Age technology, Slaan, evolution, a yet unknown alien race, Tyranids (not likely in this instance), Fabius Bile (even less likely).

I'm not sure I see just what makes the Tau so genetically grand. They have pheromones that allow some of them to naturally be put in charge; that doesn't seem outlandish. Not at all for the 40k universe. Kroot gaining genetic traits through eating their prey is far more unlikely. Catachan Barking Toads exploding like a nuclear bomb is even sillier.

Especially since the Eldar and Orks are both physiologically far superior to humans, and Tau are generally inferior to humans. Aside from the Ethereal Caste they're not exceptional by any measure, and that doesn't scream "greatest geneticists the galaxy has ever known must have created them" to me.

There are five different divergent races of Tau. These races possess unique and specialized traits the same way social insects have particular roles in a hive. Despite this established caste system they existed in isolation from each other and even competed, unlike social insects. Look at the five castes Water: merchants and negotiators, Fire: the fighters and warriors, Air: Space flight and air vehicle managers, Earth: builders and manufacturers, and the Ethereals: leaders, controllers. It was the fact that there were 5 categories of tau that where so specialized which led me to use the term “genetic wonders” - having a caste specialized for space travel seems to suggest tampering to me, specially considering they where all unspecialized cavemen when the imperium last peeked in on them - 4000 years ago I think. Everything about that set up suggest to me that someone played around with the tau genome to create a futuristic society. Don’t forget the warp resistant natures of the tau are a huge advantage; 60 million years ago the old ones accomplishments were undone by a warp plague. Then a new race that possesses a resistance against the kind of phenomenon which took out 95% of the galaxy shows up. Put a possum-rat creature next to a T-Rex and no doubt the dinosaur wins hands down. But throw in an asteroid into the equation and who’s the fittest now? Yes, a normal human can smack around a tau and walk away with his lunch money, but just wait for the next warp plague.

As for possible creators:
Eldar – does not fit their MO – I have no knowledge of any kind of genetic experimentation done by the eldar.
Brain Boys – I was under the impression that the most recent fluff suggest that the brain boys where the old ones or their agents
Humans – maybe they did make the space marines after all, but why; to create an empire to rival their own?
Slann – They are the agents of the old ones (see Fantasy).
Evolution – The fact that Ethereals just dropped in one day and had the ability to assume control of all other Tau is a good counter-argument against normal evolution. Even if the ethereals evolved in a small isolated island hidden from all other Tau how would they acquire such a trait that was geared to solely to affect other tau castes?
Tyranids – not likely – the tau where noted by the imperials many thousands of years before the tyranids showed up. Plus it is really not their MO.
Fabious bile – Uses the warp for his experiments anything he produces would be touched heavily by it.
Other Aliens – Possible, but if mysterious unseen aliens perform the manipulation why not just make them Old Ones from a writers point of view.

Here’s my basic theory which follows acumen’s razor: The Tau were created/ modified by an outside entity (evidence stated above) + the only race that has a record for flying around and creating sentient life are the old ones = the tau where made by the old ones.

Grunt13 wrote:There are five different divergent races of Tau. These races possess unique and specialized traits the same way social insects have particular roles in a hive. Despite this established caste system they existed in isolation from each other and even competed, unlike social insects. Look at the five castes Water: merchants and negotiators, Fire: the fighters and warriors, Air: Space flight and air vehicle managers, Earth: builders and manufacturers, and the Ethereals: leaders, controllers. It was the fact that there were 5 categories of tau that where so specialized which led me to use the term “genetic wonders” - having a caste specialized for space travel seems to suggest tampering to me, specially considering they where all unspecialized cavemen when the imperium last peeked in on them - 4000 years ago I think.

What are the gentetic traits of the non-Ethereal castes that make them so exceptional? The fire caste has traits selected for them that make them better fighters, but that's true of any militaristic society. The earth caste has a penchant for physical strength, but if that's what's selected for in the caste that's what you'll get.

Construction workers and soldiers are stronger than most people, but that's genetic modification. If for some reason all people of race X were raised from birth to be construction workers, members of race X would be unusually strong, even without selective breeding. Don't the Tau breed selectively anyways? If the Tau themselves are tampering with their own castes so that they can better fulfil their specialization, that's enough to make huge changes in a society.

There are five castes in traditional Indian society; and they roughly translated into Leaders/Priests, Warriors, Merchants, Peasants, and Outcasts. These aren't the result of genetic tampering. They were "engineered" in a sense, by the Leader/Priest caste, as I would suspect the Tau castes were.

Here's another things about the Tau; the Fire Caste is supposed to have been created - physiologically - for war by the Old Ones? It doesn't add up. Orks and Eldar are far superior to the Fire Caste in terms of physiological ability. The Tau don't even have particularly good eyesight. They're weaker and slower than humans. The Earth caste is weaker than the Orks are. The Water caste is far less graceful than the Eldar. I'm not sure what the Air caste really has going for them, besides "being thin".

Everything about that set up suggest to me that someone played around with the tau genome to create a futuristic society. Don’t forget the warp resistant natures of the tau are a huge advantage; 60 million years ago the old ones accomplishments were undone by a warp plague. Then a new race that possesses a resistance against the kind of phenomenon which took out 95% of the galaxy shows up. Put a possum-rat creature next to a T-Rex and no doubt the dinosaur wins hands down. But throw in an asteroid into the equation and who’s the fittest now? Yes, a normal human can smack around a tau and walk away with his lunch money, but just wait for the next warp plague.

They don't have "warp resistence" as any sort of trait. They simply do not have a large warp presence. They're like most creatures in that respect. Humans are unusually attuned to the warp, and that's due to becoming a more "psychic race" with time. Eldar and Orks were created by the Old Ones to be as attuned to the warp as they are. Tyranids require the Warp to function, but Zoanthropes were still created with Eldar DNA.

Tau are normal, the other races are exceptional. The only thing exceptional about the Tau is that they've survived as long as they have, and have a somewhat significant intersteller empire (including a pretty limited form of warp travel).

As for possible creators:
Eldar – does not fit their MO – I have no knowledge of any kind of genetic experimentation done by the eldar.

The Dark Eldar show enough of the Eldar's biological manipulation abiltiy to easily do the very small alterations required to them.

Brain Boys – I was under the impression that the most recent fluff suggest that the brain boys where the old ones or their agents

Probably some sort of agent, but it's unknown how closely they worked together.

Humans – maybe they did make the space marines after all, but why; to create an empire to rival their own?

It probably wouldn't be the Imperium behind it.

Slann – They are the agents of the old ones (see Fantasy).

Did the Old Ones start a Waagh! on Armageddon? It's unknown how close the Slann are to the Old Ones, ore really if either one still exists.

Evolution – The fact that Ethereals just dropped in one day and had the ability to assume control of all other Tau is a good counter-argument against normal evolution. Even if the ethereals evolved in a small isolated island hidden from all other Tau how would they acquire such a trait that was geared to solely to affect other tau castes?

How long is "one day" over the course of thousands of years? Is a decade "one day"? Is a century? Christianity spread pretty fast. Islam spread pretty fast. Communism spread pretty fast. Perhaps Ethereals are affected by the pheromones of other Ethereals to an extent? In that case, they would have built up the ability to lead among their own people, and would have found this leadership ability even more prominent among other Tau.

Besides, it's not like the pheromone use is all they use to control throngs of Tau. They're not Hive Tyrants. They use a well-developed ideology that borders on a religion, primarily. There have been plenty of human groups that have come into power with one of those, even without the use of pheromones that make others react favorably to them. (And humans do use pheromones to a degree themselves. Mostly for mating; but sometimes that and leadership come hand in hand.)

Tyranids – not likely – the tau where noted by the imperials many thousands of years before the tyranids showed up. Plus it is really not their MO.

They did create the Zoats, but I don't think this one is particularly likely.

Fabious bile – Uses the warp for his experiments anything he produces would be touched heavily by it.

He could probably avoid it if he wanted, but making the Tau isn't like him in the least at any rate.

Other Aliens – Possible, but if mysterious unseen aliens perform the manipulation why not just make them Old Ones from a writers point of view.

What if the Old Ones were just a loose association of different alien races to begin with? That'd be interesting. But yeah, I was just throwing the possibility out there; as I was Bile and the Tyranids, really.

You originally asked "who has the ability?", not "who is likely to have done it?".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I forgot, another common theory is that the Deceiver created the Tau, and the Ethereals are his unwitting servants.

I don't really think this is likely, but it doesn't really seem less likely than the Old Ones having created them, honestly. In either case it's fairly outlandish. There's no evidence that the Old Ones have done anything since the Enslaver plague.

Ehh, to me, they are kinda like the eldar, not good and not evil. They just want the best for their race. I guess it depends on who's point of view you're on. I mean, from a human, they are one of those races that can actually pose a threat, so they are evil. Eldar: They arer a young race, not really after us so who cares?
Tyranids: nomnomnomnom FOOD!

The special genius of the Tau is their ability to synthesis and create teams which have synergy.

For example, the Tau space fleets include Kroot, Nicassar and Demiurg units. It's not impossible they could integrate human ships too, in the same way as Gue'vesa, if a sufficiently large system broke away from the Empire.

The make-up Tau aremies shows the same team-building approach as does the separation of Tau society into castes.

The castes are similar to the traditional castes of India, Samurai Japan and to some extent feudal Europe (the Church, nobles, yeomen, peasants and serfs.) In the Tau case they are not socially stratefied, except for the Ethereals at the top.

Selective breeding is so clearly a bad idea that I suppose the Studio wrote it into the fluff as one of their general terrible ideas to add grimdarkness™; 40K is full of ideas that wouldn't work but are very grimdark™.

Or maybe they put it there to set up a Tau civil war.

The difference between the Tau and Human viewpoints is that the Tau want to integrate everyone in their empire, while humans just want to kill everyone.

The deceiver connection was made solely due to the fact that the deceivers model (remember it is a shape shifter with no true form) has a similar design on its head as the tau ethereals. I don’t consider this a strong piece of evidence. Other possible culprits would leave their signature. Bile, dark eldar, tyranids, and other bad guys leave telltale signs of their involvement wherever they go. If there origins lie with them I would expect to see a clear connection. Mutating life is one thing, creating a viable species is quite another. No species other than the old ones made sentient life that we know of. The old ones were a singular species, they were immortal or at the very least extremely long living and made the warp as super highway/communication relay it was said that their presence would cause creatures with lesser minds to spasm and die (lizardman armybook). They did have minions that were made to assist and fight for them when battling the necrons.

Here is some solid evidence for genetic manipulation:
From the first Tau codex on the second to last page. It goes into the genetic nature of the Tau, here are some quotes from the passage: “An evolutionary leap far beyond what would be normally expected…evolution is so gradual as to be almost impossible to detect in only a few generations. However, in the case of the Tau there is evidence to suggest that their species underwent short periods of ultra-rapid change … the process has been accelerated somehow”. The article also goes to on to discuss the unlikelihood of 5 subspecies developing in a somewhat similar case that I have made. There are noteworthy biological differences between the castes most outwardly obvious being the air caste – they have wings, have augmented resistance to g-forces, have eyes that function better in space flight/combat, their brains respond to 3D situations better than other tau and humans, and they are no longer comfortable in standard earth like conditions (they now live in low to zero gravity space stations). How could these conditions emerge from a species living on a planet through natural evolution?

Warp Resistance: I feel this was suggested from my readings, as I don’t have I clear recall to the article(s) that gave me this impression I might have to concede my point. Wasn’t there a battle between the tau and slaanesh forces that had the kroot turn one their allies while the tau remained unaffected? Also the commander kills a keeper only feeling a slight hesitation to do so while the daemon is attempting to seduce him, while in the fluff mere mortals instantly fall to the knees and swear loyalty to the KoS upon seeing them? In the game firewarrior don’t the Tau show a resistance to chaos compared to the humans? I never played the game but I remember someone explaining to me that humans were turned by chaos in the game while the tau didn’t. GWS made chaos/magic/ corruption resistant races with the dwarfs and Halflings for fantasy I was under the impression they did the same in 40K. But like I said I don’t have anything concrete on this theory, it was just something I was led to believe.

A lot of things worked out in favor for Tau advancement other then their “evolution”, granted we can’t rule out chance, but after a while you have to wonder if someone is/was looking out for them.

The freak warpstorm that saved them from the imperium while they still were cavemen.

Living in a nice little niche full of life sustaining planets. Look at how many viable worlds are just 3 or 4 light years from T’au.

The discovery of a warp capable spacecraft right at the point of their technology development where they could reverse engineer it. The alien vessel being conveniently dropped on their doorsteps.

Being located in an ideal part of galaxy, as far away from the eye of terror you could get. (tyranids are a problem but they couldn’t have been unforeseen as they come from outside the galaxy)

Having “friendly” aliens just a dozen or so light years away (kroot, vespid, others).

Looks to me that circumstances have been very kind to the Tau – too kind.

Grunt13 wrote:The deceiver connection was made solely due to the fact that the deceivers model (remember it is a shape shifter with no true form) has a similar design on its head as the tau ethereals. I don’t consider this a strong piece of evidence. Other possible culprits would leave their signature. Bile, dark eldar, tyranids, and other bad guys leave telltale signs of their involvement wherever they go. If there origins lie with them I would expect to see a clear connection. Mutating life is one thing, creating a viable species is quite another. No species other than the old ones made sentient life that we know of.

The Iron Men might count. It seems like the Brainboys were not the Old Ones (as they became the Snotlings), so they would count, although they're still just once removed from the Old Ones (as are the Eldar, though..).

And if you create a new species, you are "mutating" it. In fact humans have, today, created plenty of new species ourselves; new species of plants and such. The Tau weren't created from scratch.

The old ones were a singular species, they were immortal or at the very least extremely long living and made the warp as super highway/communication relay it was said that their presence would cause creatures with lesser minds to spasm and die (lizardman armybook).

I think I was mixing them up with the Council from Legion (which had an Eldar sitting on it, so they obviously weren't the Old Ones).

However, I don't think the Old Ones in 40k created the warp; I think they were the first ones to explore it, and created the Webway to travel through it once it started to stir.

Here is some solid evidence for genetic manipulation:
From the first Tau codex on the second to last page. It goes into the genetic nature of the Tau, here are some quotes from the passage: “An evolutionary leap far beyond what would be normally expected…evolution is so gradual as to be almost impossible to detect in only a few generations. However, in the case of the Tau there is evidence to suggest that their species underwent short periods of ultra-rapid change … the process has been accelerated somehow”. The article also goes to on to discuss the unlikelihood of 5 subspecies developing in a somewhat similar case that I have made.

Hmm, I should probably reread the Tau codex. I didn't know they leading to that degree; yeah, from that it sounds likely there was some intervention.

There are noteworthy biological differences between the castes most outwardly obvious being the air caste – they have wings,

Really? I must be behind on the Tau fluff. I didn't think the Forgeworld pilots have wings.

have augmented resistance to g-forces, have eyes that function better in space flight/combat, their brains respond to 3D situations better than other tau and humans, and they are no longer comfortable in standard earth like conditions (they now live in low to zero gravity space stations). How could these conditions emerge from a species living on a planet through natural evolution?

Don't ships have artificial gravity in 40k? Maybe not the Tau?

Alright, that does sound like manipulation by some party. However, it's still pretty small stuff. I'm sure Eldar have pretty much all of those attributes themselves (minus being uncomfortable on land), in addition to being better at everything else they do. The Tau just don't match up with the other creations of the Old Ones.

Warp Resistance: I feel this was suggested from my readings, as I don’t have I clear recall to the article(s) that gave me this impression I might have to concede my point. Wasn’t there a battle between the tau and slaanesh forces that had the kroot turn one their allies while the tau remained unaffected?
Also the commander kills a keeper only feeling a slight hesitation to do so while the daemon is attempting to seduce him, while in the fluff mere mortals instantly fall to the knees and swear loyalty to the KoS upon seeing them?

Hmm, I haven't read that one. However, the regimented lifestyle/pseudo-religion of the Tau and their general lack of emotion would probably give them an edge. (As would being the protagonist in a story, presumably.)

In the game firewarrior don’t the Tau show a resistance to chaos compared to the humans? I never played the game but I remember someone explaining to me that humans were turned by chaos in the game while the tau didn’t. GWS made chaos/magic/ corruption resistant races with the dwarfs and Halflings for fantasy I was under the impression they did the same in 40K. But like I said I don’t have anything concrete on this theory, it was just something I was led to believe.

Well, they would be more resistant than humans (against the manipulation of the soul or whatever; not against physical corruption), but that would be due to humanity being unusually psychic (and sentient). They're not as psychic as Eldar or Orks, but they're a lot more psychic in the 41st millennium than they were in, say, 2009. It's part of their emergence as a psychic race (which was supposed to be paved by the Emperor, but Chaos had other plans).

A lot of things worked out in favor for Tau advancement other then their “evolution”, granted we can’t rule out chance, but after a while you have to wonder if someone is/was looking out for them.

I'm inclined to think so too now, actually, but it doesn't seem like Old One caliber string pulling to me. If I had to guess I might go with Eldar, but I think there's not enough leads currently to really say. I still think Slaan are a possibility, you can't tell me Aun'Va isn't reminiscent of one!

The freak warpstorm that saved them from the imperium while they still were cavemen.

Living in a nice little niche full of life sustaining planets. Look at how many viable worlds are just 3 or 4 light years from T’au.

The discovery of a warp capable spacecraft right at the point of their technology development where they could reverse engineer it. The alien vessel being conveniently dropped on their doorsteps.

Being located in an ideal part of galaxy, as far away from the eye of terror you could get. (tyranids are a problem but they couldn’t have been unforeseen as they come from outside the galaxy)

Having “friendly” aliens just a dozen or so light years away (kroot, vespid, others).

Looks to me that circumstances have been very kind to the Tau – too kind.

Well, it's really not unlikely for a freak occurrence to have saved them/allowed them to thrive if you also look at all of the alien species who might have been saved by a freak event, but weren't. If there are a thousand alien races, and only 1/1,000 survive to become a space fairing empire (dodging not just the Imperium, but Orks, Tyranids, internal collapse, minor alien races, etc), then you should have a race that survives.

In a essence, the probability of a fully developed empire like the Tau's emerging anywhere with the hostile conditions offered by the rest of the galaxy should be much lower than the probability of them developing in nicer conditions. In that sense, if you see a successful alien empire you should guess that it was in a good spot, in the same way that you would assume that any random oak tree is growing in decent soil instead of a desert or ocean.

I got bored about half way through the thread so bear with me if this has been said.

If the Tau were a real race I believe they would probably fall under Lawful Neutral.

There are a couple of other clues in the fluff surrounding Tau that point to an Eldar connection.

In the first Tau codex, a top Eldar farseer is quoted saying he feels a kinship or fellow feeling with the Tau (I can't remember the exact wording.)

In Xenology, there are a couple of points which suggest that Eldar might have engineered the Ethereals using a pheremone organ transplanted from a third alien species.

If you assume the Ethereals are a stable, genetically engineered subspecies, it expains why they don't interbreed with the other castes, because they would pass on their Etherealness. It doesn't explain the ban on interbreeding among the other castes.

If you want a rationale for why the Tau are completely different to other Old One creations, but they are Old One creations, think of this. Everything else the Old Ones did went badly wrong for them, so perhaps a small, hidden surviving group of Old Ones made a new plan different to all the older plans.

The Tau Empire should be NEUTRAL with GOOD tendency. Despite this, the Empire is the only thing in the 40k Universe with gentle manners on diplomatic ways and they always ask if you want to join them or fight.

They are imperialists and colonists in the end, but since we have monsters, daemons, a dictatorial regime based on fear and ignorance (Imperium), mindless green xeno's who likes war ('cause its funny!), and snob Eldars who would slay entire worlds just for the sake of one.... well forgive me but Tau the closest thing to GOOD GUYS.

In Dark Crusade if I remember well, you cleanse the planet with the SM, CSM, ORKS and alike.... with Tau you don't kill the humans, they just well... avoid the capacity of reproduction.

Better than exterminatus for sure.

Dark Crusade is of doubtful canonicity.

I know, but it's a GW product anyway so it may be taken as a source. By the way from DoW they've made a brand new chapter, the Blood Ravens... and they also made an official appearance on Codex and WD.

Should we not take them then as non - canon ?

I think that everything makes canon from official products until someone with the right to, tells that there's something different. But then... GW is known to change, cut and rework the story of its universe. It's their right to.

Evil.
In theory, communism works. In theory.
Remember Stalin...

"Evil, in many cultures, is a broad term used to describe what are seen as subjectively harmful deeds that are labeled as such to steer moral support. Evil is usually contrasted with good, which describes acts that are subjectively beneficial to the observer."

So to the Tau themselves they are fundamentally not evil, however to the Imperium of man they are evil. Evil is subjective, based on your own morale viewpoint, so no one person can go "Yes the Tau are evil and that's that!"

The Orks aren't evil, it is their nature to fight, same way as the Tyranids aren't evil, they simply work off a biological predatory need to hunt. In that way, the Chaos Gods themselves cannot be evil, because they behave only according to their nature.

If you're asking who is the more evil from our standpoint (average joes who like a bit of fluff and wargaming) then I would say the Tau are better than the Imperium socially and morally, but then that wouldn't be hard...

Well, since good and evil are subjective terms, it would all depend on who you are in relation to the Tau. If you are Imperial, they are evil, as they want to destroy the Imperium and absorb humanity into their "cause/religion." If you are Tau, then they are good, spreading their religion and attacking those deemed unworthy whenever they can.

From a neutral perspective, they could be considered evil, as they do not particularly care who you are, if you are not for them, and you are a weak target or assisting their enemy (even while assisting the Tau), then you are against them.

So I went with evil. Not saying the Imperium is good in the same stroke, but the Tau aren't all hugs and kisses if you don't welcome them with open arms and decrees of servitude/capitulance.

We don't view the Empire or Tau from their individual perspectives, we view them from our own.

Thus we can make an objective distinction.

We see that the Tau cause less harm or injury, etc. than the Empire and thus are less evil.

You cannot really define anything as Good or Evil unless you take a stance yourself. That stance determines what is good and what is evil according to what you have already decided.

Horus believed in what he was doing was Good and that the Emperor was Evil as does all of Chaos. I have not read through the Horus Heresy yet but it's next on my reading list. Grey Knights believe they are Good but yet the trials and what they are made for is inevitably not Good per se if you consider that they are defending an Imperium that subjugates its own citizens.

Tau believe in a Greater Good. They want to show everyone the way to the greater good and they are separated into Castes - which does not make them communists. Communists are essentially all considered equal and everyone gains a fair share. A caste system simply takes what others are best at and genetically breeds them for that purpose.

This caste system is very similar to India currently and a lot of governments throughout the ages. Even in America we have a type of caste system but it is a class system and is based on financial status. It is not genetic based. The Tau are not so much Communists as they are more crusaders. If you join them they are happy and treat you with respect. If you refuse they kill you. It's an ultimatum that is offered up to those they see as neutrals.

The water caste negotiators are simply another form of war. If you can take over a planet without firing a shot then

The Kroot are trusted allies because they have joined the cause. Are te Tau necessarily Good? No. No one is necessarily Good in 40K. Everyone has their own agendas and will go to great lengths to achieve those. This is why it is a Galaxy of war. No one is good. No one is evil. It is just them against us.

You can define evil as causing harm or injury, which is part of the dictionary definition.

Since harm and injury are objectively determined, this provides a way to analyse evil.

To be fair they're really more like the skin flaps flying squirrels have, rather then true wings. I am about 75% sure that I read somewhere that the old ones made the warp, I first thought it was the Necron codex, but I didn’t find anything concrete. Maybe in the Liber Chaotica tome, but I can’t say for sure. I didn’t even notice the similarity between the slann dais and the Tau head ethereal’s chair. There are a lot of similarities between the Tau and Lizardman. Their manifest destiny, how they have a plan for the other races, blind unquestioning loyalty to a fixed principle, and their caste systems.

The slann in both fantasy and 40K are the Robin to the old ones' Batman, they exist solely to serve the old ones and their agenda. The old ones' made the kork and then weaponized against the necrons. How the brain boyz fit into the equation I am unsure.

The eldar theory makes some sense, but why would they keep it secret? If it were in fact the old ones who engineered the Tau then it would have to be kept secret to protect their project and themselves. If news traveled to the necrons that the old ones are still active and have a new pet project the C’tan will do everything in their power to destroy the Tau and hunt down their creators - Chaos to would make extreme effort to prey on the old ones as well. The kinship the eldar farseer feels might be due to that their species both share parental-like creators. Plus if it was the eldar, why didn’t they tweak the dogma of the greater good to also include being exceptional nice to the craftworld eldar. Craftworlds and exodite planets have been attacked by the Tau because they have refused to join up.

Many people who believe that 40K and fantasy are tied into each other as the same setting. There is evidence in Fantasy of 40K being the outer setting for the world. In one story a wizard has visions of eldar craftworlds and a large battle with titans; a chaos daemon states why it chooses to fight on the fantasy world rather then other planets in a chaos army book; people find bolt pistols and chainswords in the chaos wastes and 40K equipment was found on that swamp island campaign; and so on. So if the fantasy world is in the 40K universe even if it is on another galaxy it suggest that the old ones are still a hidden but active force in the 40K universe. As the old ones were on the fantasy world 10,000 years ago doing their thing an engineering life. This would put the old ones in the 40K universe well after the warp plagues. Because unless time travel is put into play how could the old ones exist at the same time as “modern day” 40K equipment if they were completely exterminated 60 million years ago. Plus in the necron codex it makes mention of the descendents of the old ones and suggest playing 40K games incorporating lizardman.

Neutral, as far as i can remember the Tau dont desire an empire the size of the Imperiums, don't want death like chaos or Necrons, they only seek a comfortable existence

Why would the Eldar keep it a secret?

Because it's part of a plan.

I haven't read any fluff indicating the Tau had attacked Craftworlds or exodites. Is it in some of the novels?

The Tau actually believe it is their destiny to unite the whole galaxy under the principle of The Greater Good.

Grunt13 wrote:To be fair they're really more like the skin flaps flying squirrels have, rather then true wings. I am about 75% sure that I read somewhere that the old ones made the warp, I first thought it was the Necron codex, but I didn’t find anything concrete. Maybe in the Liber Chaotica tome, but I can’t say for sure. I didn’t even notice the similarity between the slann dais and the Tau head ethereal’s chair. There are a lot of similarities between the Tau and Lizardman. Their manifest destiny, how they have a plan for the other races, blind unquestioning loyalty to a fixed principle, and their caste systems.

Hmm... this makes me think of the Slann again.

The slann in both fantasy and 40K are the Robin to the old ones' Batman, they exist solely to serve the old ones and their agenda. The old ones' made the kork and then weaponized against the necrons. How the brain boyz fit into the equation I am unsure.

My theory is that the Brainboys were the original "krork", and were one of the Old Ones' earlier races. The Old Ones sort of commissioned a type of ultimate warrior race, so the Brainboys used their own DNA and relation to the Orkoid fungi to create all of the other Orkoids, with Orks as the warriors, Grots as the workers, Brainboys as the leaders, Squigs as supplies, etc. At this point I don't know if "krork" would refer to the Brainboys specifically, or greenskins as a whole. Then the Orks ruined the Brainboys' plan and the rest is history.

The Brainboys were included in the new codex, which makes me think they must have been the Orks' actual creators (the connection between the Old Ones and the Orks was always a bit of speculation). The Old Ones being snotlings is an entertaining notion, but it would sort of silly.

The eldar theory makes some sense, but why would they keep it secret?

From each other or other races? They make everything secret from other races. They're probably the most secretive race in the game. As far as one craftworld keeping it secret from others, it's not too unlikely. They have lived and evolved completely separate from each other for thousands of years, only meeting together on the rare occasion other Eldar actually come into danger. I would expect distrust to be common among the craftworlds, given what's at stake, and given that the Eldar have caused a lot of problems for their own race.

If it were in fact the old ones who engineered the Tau then it would have to be kept secret to protect their project and themselves. If news traveled to the necrons that the old ones are still active and have a new pet project the C’tan will do everything in their power to destroy the Tau and hunt down their creators -

I agree, they certainly wouldn't announce their presence. They probably would be a lot less powerful than they were at one point as well.

Chaos to would make extreme effort to prey on the old ones as well.

Really? I never heard of the Chaos Gods and the Old Ones being in conflict. I'm sure they wouldn't like each other (having wrecked the Eldar, and spoiled the warp), but aside from the Enslavers I don't know that they really interacted.

The kinship the eldar farseer feels might be due to that their species both share parental-like creators. Plus if it was the eldar, why didn’t they tweak the dogma of the greater good to also include being exceptional nice to the craftworld eldar. Craftworlds and exodite planets have been attacked by the Tau because they have refused to join up.

That's true, but the Craftworld Eldar are also pretty much the heirs to the Old One's ideas, continuing their fight against the Necrons. The Old Ones would have a reason for them to be exceptionally nice to the Craftworlders in that case as well.

I think it's a matter of the Tau simply not having been manipulated that in-depth. "The Greater Good" could easily be an invention of the Tau themselves; it's pretty similar to many different concepts that have made for successful hegemonies here.

Many people who believe that 40K and fantasy are tied into each other as the same setting. There is evidence in Fantasy of 40K being the outer setting for the world. In one story a wizard has visions of eldar craftworlds and a large battle with titans; a chaos daemon states why it chooses to fight on the fantasy world rather then other planets in a chaos army book; people find bolt pistols and chainswords in the chaos wastes and 40K equipment was found on that swamp island campaign; and so on. So if the fantasy world is in the 40K universe even if it is on another galaxy it suggest that the old ones are still a hidden but active force in the 40K universe. As the old ones were on the fantasy world 10,000 years ago doing their thing an engineering life. This would put the old ones in the 40K universe well after the warp plagues. Because unless time travel is put into play how could the old ones exist at the same time as “modern day” 40K equipment if they were completely exterminated 60 million years ago. Plus in the necron codex it makes mention of the descendents of the old ones and suggest playing 40K games incorporating lizardman.

I believe that Games Workshop has officially stated that they're not the same universe; they have a lot of (obvious) parallels, but you can't guarantee that anything will be consistent (which is pretty consistent with their fear of being beholden to any particular rules when it comes to their background). The pretty significant physiological difference between the Orks/Orcs and Elves/Eldar seems to back this up a little; I think the crossovers have pretty much died down, and are pretty much just easter eggs when they appear.

However, both act similar to each other, and look similar to each other, so there's obviously a lot of inter-universe similarities at any rate. I would guess that most things applicable to the Old Ones are applicable in both universes. I don't think there's a timeline in place for the both of them, though (and the warp can throw things through time at any rate).

Kilkrazy wrote:You can define evil as causing harm or injury, which is part of the dictionary definition.
Since harm and injury are objectively determined, this provides a way to analyse evil.

Dictionaries are not law. In fact, they are subjective. A word is a word is a word. They are meaningless unless you give them meaning, if you catch my drift, I am being a bit philosophical.

Dictionaries are meant to relay context, a level of understanding for one who does not understand. I do not often use a dictionary strictly because of this. I use an encyclopedia, which gives a word context. So I guess you could say a dictionary is an abridged encyclopedia, but for grammar and basic definitions.

Good and Evil have more meaning than just "to not cause harm" and "to cause harm." They ARE Yin and Yang, because one follows the other and is, in fact, part of the other. Simply because one is "less" evil does not make them good.

Medicine is a good example. If I had to amputate a limb to save the host, would I be good or evil? I am causing harm. But it is for the better of the person? Perhaps, but what if they die because of my actions? I have caused total harm and not healing. Does that mean I am evil? No. The doctor here is not evil from my stand point, but he did cause harm and death (in my example the patient may have lived without amputation, and may have died without it).

Would a freedom fighter be evil if they cause harm? What if their cause is to free people from tyranny and oppression? But what if those people are completely safe, physically healthy, and economically prosperous. There is nothing wrong with their lives, they just are not happy. So if I were to cause violence (I would ask you to assume it is the only method available), injury and death, would I be evil? My cause may be just and good, but to get to my cause I must do things that in other context may be evil?

To make such broad and simple statements is impractical and poor. The Tau do not care what another people are doing, how happy they are, or how "just" their system of government are anymore than the Imperium. If they do not join them, they will die. Just as the Imperium does. To say they will peacefully take a world is like saying a typhoon peacefully takes an evacuated coastal village. The villagers did not make a peaceful agreement with the typhoon, they had only one choice.

But this isn't even an argument about whether the Tau are "more good" or "less evil" than the Imperium. It is a question of whether or not the Tau are the "good guys" or the "bad guys." I say that is subjective.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:You can define evil as causing harm or injury, which is part of the dictionary definition.
Since harm and injury are objectively determined, this provides a way to analyse evil.

Dictionaries are not law. In fact, they are subjective. A word is a word is a word. They are meaningless unless you give them meaning, if you catch my drift, I am being a bit philosophical.

I'm sure you're being very philosophical however the dictionary contains the language as generally understood. You can be the Red Queen is you like but everyone else won't agree with you.

If you go in the street and ask 100 people anywhere in the world the following questions, what answers do you think you will get?

1. Killing people is (A) Good/(B) Evil.
2. Helping people is (A) Good/(B) Evil.

If I killed Hitler or Osama Bin Laden, would I be doing evil or would I be doing good? What about rapists? Good or evil there? Pedophiles? CEOs of Enron!

As for good: If I help people commit suicide, be an enabler of bad behavior, voted for an illogical government agent....

Hitler = Good it it brings the war to an early end. Benthamite principle of greatest good for the greatest number.
Rapist = Bad. It is a lesser crime than murder and they can be punished another way.
Paedophiles = Ditto.
CEOs of Enron = Ditto.

Helping suicide can be good depending on circumstances.
Helping people do wrong is clearly wrong since you become an agent in their crime.
I don't understand the idea about the illogical government agent.

When you make up this kind of thought experiment you are rehearsing the kind of moral questions that everyone faces every day and solves for themselves, usually on a smaller scale.

Beware the alien, the mutant, the communist.

Deleted by Bascilica: Double Post.

If i had an intergalactic enemy, I'd want it to be the Tau. i have maximum chance of victory and if i dont, i can still ask to join in. I think they're neutral/good. Better than the imerium atleast.

THE GREATER GAK








MWUAHAHAHAHA CANT CACH MEEE

Kilkrazy wrote:Why would the Eldar keep it a secret?

Because it's part of a plan.

I haven't read any fluff indicating the Tau had attacked Craftworlds or exodites. Is it in some of the novels?

The Tau actually believe it is their destiny to unite the whole galaxy under the principle of The Greater Good.

In a white dwarf there was a games day cityfight event where the Tau invaded a craftworld. I didn’t attend; I just read the little story about the tau invasion in the magazine. There are some exodite worlds to the galactic north of the tau empire that I believe I read about them having conflicts - could be a simple battle map. Sorry if this is fairly weak, but I tend to remember the information and not were I picked it up.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I believe that Games Workshop has officially stated that they're not the same universe; they have a lot of (obvious) parallels, but you can't guarantee that anything will be consistent (which is pretty consistent with their fear of being beholden to any particular rules when it comes to their background). The pretty significant physiological difference between the Orks/Orcs and Elves/Eldar seems to back this up a little; I think the crossovers have pretty much died down, and are pretty much just easter eggs when they appear.

Well that pretty much tanks about 90% of the evidence I had going for that theory. How sure are you about this, as the Liber Chaotica had a lot of 40K visions and equipment displayed within it, not just easter egg level either, but paragraphs dedicated to the chaos legions and daemon prince primarchs envisioned by fantasy seers. It was also a fairly recent publishment. I would argue that the old ones made the elves with the eldar in mind but resorted to modifying humans as a base genesis. The lizardman armybook says that orcs were regarded by the old ones as an undesired contamination to the planet and engaged in one of the largest campaigns the planet has ever seen to exterminate them, but were unsuccessful. Perhaps the orks lost their odd boys due to the culling and became fantasy orcs. Considering how the old ones where altering the planet and developing the elves, dwarfs and humans, how does an unwanted race just show up on your world? I betting on ork spores hit the planet from space junk and messed up the old ones plans.

I've just heard it's their official statement. I don't know that it means they couldn't intersect, just that they're not going to consider themselves beholden to the idea. Games Workshop is very loose with what's considered "canon" at any rate, I hardly think they'd make themselves opposed to the position.

Since the warp touches multiple realities, there's always the possibility that the two universes exist parallel to each other as well, and that the Chaos Gods (existing in the Warp) are formed from both universes.

I think the tau are too good. "nothing can stand in the way of the greater good" except maybe cato sicarius and the 2nd company of ultreamarines. boom!!

I think tau are good for the most part but the greater good could mean anything like killing a colony of humans so a couple fire warriors couldd survive.

Kilkrazy wrote:Hitler = Good it it brings the war to an early end. Benthamite principle of greatest good for the greatest number.
Rapist = Bad. It is a lesser crime than murder and they can be punished another way.
Paedophiles = Ditto.
CEOs of Enron = Ditto.

Helping suicide can be good depending on circumstances.
Helping people do wrong is clearly wrong since you become an agent in their crime.
I don't understand the idea about the illogical government agent.

When you make up this kind of thought experiment you are rehearsing the kind of moral questions that everyone faces every day and solves for themselves, usually on a smaller scale.

You see, this is where a LOT of people would greatly disagree. Or at least come with caveats. For instance, most people in studies would say:
Kill them all.
And that is considered "good."
Just so you know, scientifically, rapists and pedophiles are chronic. They will never stop being rapists and pedophiles, they will always look for ways of getting away with their crimes unless they are completely isolated. In my book, that sort of thing deserves death.

Enron CEOs? They actually caused the premature death of dozens, if not hundreds, of people. Elderly folk who depended on their pensions to pay for health care. Not to mention the thousands of people who built their lives around their pensions and investments. The "evil" quotient accumulates to some point where death is deserved.

Here is something to consider. If the Enron CEOs never actually killed anyone with their actions (they never took a gun and shot someone), and neither did Hitler. What is the difference? Hitler signed the death warrants for millions of people, but the Enron CEOs signed the death warrants for a (not small) number of people as well, just not so directly, but they still did it and knew the consequences.

Intention is the main separation here. Hitler intended to kill people, Enron didn’t. They just lied about their business successes and hoped to recover later, but ended up digging a bigger hole. Then they took care of themselves and left the shareholders to rot.

Here’s a some food for thought. A person while driving drunk slams into someone and kills them. Another drunk slams into a power cable and causes a large blackout that cost the lives of 6 people who relied on the electricity to maintain their lives. The first would be charge more seriously than the second. People are charged with the direct consequences of their actions rather then the indirect typically. There are laws in america that state that while committing a felony you are responsible for all consequences. If you point a gun at someone and they have a fatal heart attack you just committed murder. Three man tried to rob a store, but the clerk had a gun a managed to shoot down one. The other two ran away and while the wounded man was on the floor the clerk shoot him again. The clerk was charged with murder as were the two other robbers.

A while ago someone cut in front of a tracker trailer on a bridge belonging to a major highway. The trailer flipped and burned down the bridge – thankfully no lives where lost. The damage was in the billions and the shutdown of the highway for an extended repair period that inconvenienced millions for months– the lady only received a 300-dollar ticket for reckless driving.

I never really accepted that attempted murder was seen as less of a crime than actual murder. If a man shoots someone in the chest and then due to the victims will power and the doctors’ skill he manages to survive how is that a lesser crime than how the outcome would have been if the doctor had an off day? Here is an another interesting news story I read a while ago. A man served out a 15-year jail term for shooting a man. His victim survived, but suffered severe health issues including being paralyzed. A week after the man was released his victim died, the doctors ruled that it was due to the health issues that arisen from being shot 15 years ago. The police picked up the newly released man and put him on trial for murder.

Good and Evil are largely social constructs based on morality and ethics. An American who celebrates freedom of speech, association, and beliefs would have a different notion of the tau then a pro-Chavez Venezuelan. It really comes down to personal priorities.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Hitler = Good it it brings the war to an early end. Benthamite principle of greatest good for the greatest number.
Rapist = Bad. It is a lesser crime than murder and they can be punished another way.
Paedophiles = Ditto.
CEOs of Enron = Ditto.

Helping suicide can be good depending on circumstances.
Helping people do wrong is clearly wrong since you become an agent in their crime.
I don't understand the idea about the illogical government agent.

When you make up this kind of thought experiment you are rehearsing the kind of moral questions that everyone faces every day and solves for themselves, usually on a smaller scale.

You see, this is where a LOT of people would greatly disagree. Or at least come with caveats. For instance, most people in studies would say:
Kill them all.
And that is considered "good."
Just so you know, scientifically, rapists and pedophiles are chronic. They will never stop being rapists and pedophiles, they will always look for ways of getting away with their crimes unless they are completely isolated. In my book, that sort of thing deserves death.

Enron CEOs? They actually caused the premature death of dozens, if not hundreds, of people. Elderly folk who depended on their pensions to pay for health care. Not to mention the thousands of people who built their lives around their pensions and investments. The "evil" quotient accumulates to some point where death is deserved.

Here is something to consider. If the Enron CEOs never actually killed anyone with their actions (they never took a gun and shot someone), and neither did Hitler. What is the difference? Hitler signed the death warrants for millions of people, but the Enron CEOs signed the death warrants for a (not small) number of people as well, just not so directly, but they still did it and knew the consequences.

Did you know ethical development can be mathematically tested?

Grunt13 wrote:Intention is the main separation here. Hitler intended to kill people, Enron didn’t. They just lied about their business successes and hoped to recover later, but ended up digging a bigger hole. Then they took care of themselves and left the shareholders to rot.
Here’s a some food for thought. A person while driving drunk slams into someone and kills them. Another drunk slams into a power cable and causes a large blackout that cost the lives of 6 people who relied on the electricity to maintain their lives. The first would be charge more seriously than the second. People are charged with the direct consequences of their actions rather then the indirect typically. There are laws in america that state that while committing a felony you are responsible for all consequences. If you point a gun at someone and they have a fatal heart attack you just committed murder. Three man tried to rob a store, but the clerk had a gun a managed to shoot down one. The other two ran away and while the wounded man was on the floor the clerk shoot him again. The clerk was charged with murder as were the two other robbers.
A while ago someone cut in front of a tracker trailer on a bridge belonging to a major highway. The trailer flipped and burned down the bridge – thankfully no lives where lost. The damage was in the billions and the shutdown of the highway for an extended repair period that inconvenienced millions for months– the lady only received a 300-dollar ticket for reckless driving.
I never really accepted that attempted murder was seen as less of a crime than actual murder. If a man shoots someone in the chest and then due to the victims will power and the doctors’ skill he manages to survive how is that a lesser crime than how the outcome would have been if the doctor had an off day? Here is an another interesting news story I read a while ago. A man served out a 15-year jail term for shooting a man. His victim survived, but suffered severe health issues including being paralyzed. A week after the man was released his victim died, the doctors ruled that it was due to the health issues that arisen from being shot 15 years ago. The police picked up the newly released man and put him on trial for murder.
Good and Evil are largely social constructs based on morality and ethics. An American who celebrates freedom of speech, association, and beliefs would have a different notion of the tau then a pro-Chavez Venezuelan. It really comes down to personal priorities.

There is a slight difference between intentionally ruining people's retirement funds and ramming into a power pole because you are drunk. One is intentional and thus premeditated while the other is due to poor decision making. If a doctor decides to cut too far into a heart during an operation to cause complications so that they can get paid for more surgeries which eventually leads to the patient's premature death, that is one thing. If the doctor is poorly trained/practiced because they were drunk during their training and slips up, that is another.

The Enron CEOs knew what they were doing and knew who it was going to affect. Whether or not they knew it would lead to premature deaths or suffering, what they did directly lead to it, and they should have thought ahead for that. In that example the chain is very short: Steal retiree's pension - Retiree loses health benefits due to stolen money - Retiree dies early due to untreated but treatable health issues. The chain for the drunk driver is longer, and the possible results are not definite: Drives drunk - hits power pole - power lost to hospital - hospital has patients reliant on electrical systems who die. At any one point that those chains are broken, the end result does not occur.

With retired people, you know they will have health problems, it is generally inevitable that with age comes illness.

Driving drunk does not always mean you will have an accident. Having an accident does not always mean you will hit a power pole. Hitting a power pole does not always mean you will knock out power. Knocking out power does not always mean you will kill people.

Person drives drunk - hits a pedestrian, killing them upon impact. Very short chain and the only way to break it is to either not driver drunk or not hit a pedestrian while driving drunk.

Though I completely agree that "good" and "evil" can be assessed by priorities as well.

Kilkrazy wrote:Did you know ethical development can be mathematically tested?

Yes, and I have read several methods of doing this and it usually boils down to starting with subjective declarations early on and subjective decisions on the input. Those methods I read were intended to be used to make consistent and scalar decisions/determinations from an already established system.

Stealing is not quite the proper word, not that I am defending them. Enron lied about their success, which caused people to purchase their stock at an improper value. Doing this creates a situation were the company is playing catch up to reach the levels that they stated to the shareholders. This practice can end with people digging a bigger and bigger hole as the lying continues to cover for the initial(s) falsehood. After a time when the truth comes out, the stock tanks. I have to believe that the end game for the conspirators was not to destroy the stock value and sink the company but use the speculation to boost stock prices/ maintain their competency and eventually cover the difference in time. What happened with Enron is when it was clear that the company could not recover they made sure they were taken care of at the cost of the stock holders. The best analogy that I could think of is a ship’s captain aboard a sinking ship lying to the crew so he could get to the lifeboat first; I don’t really think it was the plan all along to sink the ship. If it worked out the way they initially intended, Enron would continue to prosper, the shareholders would benefit, and no one would ever be the wiser that the company fudged the numbers.

Grunt13 wrote:Stealing is not quite the proper word, not that I am defending them. Enron lied about their success, which caused people to purchase their stock at an improper value. Doing this creates a situation were the company is playing catch up to reach the levels that they stated to the shareholders. This practice can end with people digging a bigger and bigger hole as the lying continues to cover for the initial(s) falsehood. After a time when the truth comes out, the stock tanks. I have to believe that the end game for the conspirators was not to destroy the stock value and sink the company but use the speculation to boost stock prices/ maintain their competency and eventually cover the difference in time. What happened with Enron is when it was clear that the company could not recover they made sure they were taken care of at the cost of the stock holders. The best analogy that I could think of is a ship’s captain aboard a sinking ship lying to the crew so he could get to the lifeboat first; I don’t really think it was the plan all along to sink the ship. If it worked out the way they initially intended, Enron would continue to prosper, the shareholders would benefit, and no one would ever be the wiser that the company fudged the numbers.

This is not the thread you are looking for.

Ironically, to your analogy, there is a general maritime "law" that if a captain tries to leave a ship before ensuring the safety of passengers and crew (within a level of reason), they may be tried for delinquency and executed! Even if all ends up peaches and cream! Last I heard it coming up though was in the 70's or 80's when a Greek cruise ship captain abandoned ship with most of the crew and leaving the passengers to die! The little nicker didn't even have the courtesy to notify officials when he got to land! I forget what happened to him, but he wasn't executed, though it did come up. But nobody got hurt in the end.

Skinnattittar wrote:Enron CEOs? They actually caused the premature death of dozens, if not hundreds, of people. Elderly folk who depended on their pensions to pay for health care. Not to mention the thousands of people who built their lives around their pensions and investments. The "evil" quotient accumulates to some point where death is deserved.

Here is something to consider. If the Enron CEOs never actually killed anyone with their actions (they never took a gun and shot someone), and neither did Hitler. What is the difference? Hitler signed the death warrants for millions of people, but the Enron CEOs signed the death warrants for a (not small) number of people as well, just not so directly, but they still did it and knew the consequences.

Skinnattittar wrote:
The Enron CEOs knew what they were doing and knew who it was going to affect. Whether or not they knew it would lead to premature deaths or suffering, what they did directly lead to it, and they should have thought ahead for that. In that example the chain is very short: Steal retiree's pension - Retiree loses health benefits due to stolen money - Retiree dies early due to untreated but treatable health issues. The chain for the drunk driver is longer, and the possible results are not definite: Drives drunk - hits power pole - power lost to hospital - hospital has patients reliant on electrical systems who die. At any one point that those chains are broken, the end result does not occur.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:Stealing is not quite the proper word, not that I am defending them. Enron lied about their success, which caused people to purchase their stock at an improper value. Doing this creates a situation were the company is playing catch up to reach the levels that they stated to the shareholders. This practice can end with people digging a bigger and bigger hole as the lying continues to cover for the initial(s) falsehood. After a time when the truth comes out, the stock tanks. I have to believe that the end game for the conspirators was not to destroy the stock value and sink the company but use the speculation to boost stock prices/ maintain their competency and eventually cover the difference in time. What happened with Enron is when it was clear that the company could not recover they made sure they were taken care of at the cost of the stock holders. The best analogy that I could think of is a ship’s captain aboard a sinking ship lying to the crew so he could get to the lifeboat first; I don’t really think it was the plan all along to sink the ship. If it worked out the way they initially intended, Enron would continue to prosper, the shareholders would benefit, and no one would ever be the wiser that the company fudged the numbers.

This is not the thread you are looking for.

How so?

6 posts were placed discussing Enron, 3 of which were posted by you. I gave a statement that may have contradicted your argument, but I fail to see why it doesn’t belong in this thread any less so then the threads you placed yourself. You made reference to the Enron deliberately robbing investors and went so far as to compare them to Hitler; I saw this as a misconception to be corrected. Enron fixed up their reports to give false impressions. It was very unlikely that the conspirers planned to tank their stocks and cause the company’s collapse, which is what trashed people’s savings. Like my example of the reckless woman cutting in front of a tanker trailer and causing billions of dollars worth of damage, Enron didn’t grasp the level of damage their criminal actions would cause and didn't intend to destroy the company anymore then the woman intended to destroy the bridge. My analogy of a captain was made to illustrate intent. It wasn’t the captain’s goal to sink his ship and drown his passengers, as it wasn’t Enron CEO’s goal to sink their company. Expanding my analogy to maritime law doesn’t void its original design which was to clarify the Enron scandal.

Glammering up reports is a somewhat common practice. Companies use the best possible data to argue their success, some might be misleading or even fraudulent. Enron used odd accounting practices to appear more successful, when that fell through the top guys performed insider trading to cash their stocks before anyone else caught on; this is what really caught them, the blatant insider trading and conspiracies that took place when it was obvious to them that the company was slipping and the stock was about to fall.

I am severing myself from this ridiculous argument about the Enron CEOs. It has very little to do with what I was trying to embody. Grunt13, you have missed the point entirely and are trying to have your fun by flaunting relatively pointless trivia about the subject. I very well could have described a much better analogy but the Enron CEOs fit it well generally. If you want to show off your knowledge about the specifics that happened, there are better forums than here. But I will try to minimze the clutter. Further insight you may want to depart upon me, send me a PM, but I don't particularly care and I would kindly ask that we make better use of our time.

The Tau are very communist, and wherever there is communism there is someone pulling the strings. But the idea of what the Tau strive for is good.
Perhaps the Space Pope is pulling the strings.

Skinnattittar wrote:I am severing myself from this ridiculous argument about the Enron CEOs. It has very little to do with what I was trying to embody. Grunt13, you have missed the point entirely and are trying to have your fun by flaunting relatively pointless trivia about the subject. I very well could have described a much better analogy but the Enron CEOs fit it well generally. If you want to show off your knowledge about the specifics that happened, there are better forums than here. But I will try to minimze the clutter. Further insight you may want to depart upon me, send me a PM, but I don't particularly care and I would kindly ask that we make better use of our time.

I am sorry I ruined your rant with reason and facts. You were obviously making a point that was so far past my understanding that I shouldn’t even have attempted to involve myself in the discussion. I should have taken my cue when you waved your hand and dismissed my initial post with the statement, “This is not the thread you are looking for”, like a good little peon. Next time I will remember to bite my tongue and dare not to use “ridiculous” facts to respond to your statements.

Grunt13 wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:I am severing myself from this ridiculous argument about the Enron CEOs. It has very little to do with what I was trying to embody. Grunt13, you have missed the point entirely and are trying to have your fun by flaunting relatively pointless trivia about the subject. I very well could have described a much better analogy but the Enron CEOs fit it well generally. If you want to show off your knowledge about the specifics that happened, there are better forums than here. But I will try to minimze the clutter. Further insight you may want to depart upon me, send me a PM, but I don't particularly care and I would kindly ask that we make better use of our time.

I am sorry I ruined your rant with reason and facts. You were obviously making a point that was so far past my understanding that I shouldn’t even have attempted to involve myself in the discussion. I should have taken my cue when you waved your hand and dismissed my initial post with the statement, “This is not the thread you are looking for”, like a good little peon. Next time I will remember to bite my tongue and dare not to use “ridiculous” facts to respond to your statements.

You indiscretion will be forgiven. Soft hints are small graces.

Witzkatz wrote: The Imperium uses religion, okay, but we HAVE a (semi)living god-emperor, for feth's sake! Strongest psyker in the galaxy!

and soon he will die completely

shas'o vera wrote:

Witzkatz wrote: The Imperium uses religion, okay, but we HAVE a (semi)living god-emperor, for feth's sake! Strongest psyker in the galaxy!

and soon he will die completely

And then (possibly) reborn even more powerful than before!

thats about as likely as the orks becoming smart

I think the Emperor will come back and make peace with the Tau, and let them ally with a liberalised Imperium so that numbers and technology can be combined to rid the Galaxy of Nids, Necrons and Orks.

Kilkrazy wrote:I think the Emperor will come back and make peace with the Tau, and let them ally with a liberalised Imperium so that numbers and technology can be combined to rid the Galaxy of Nids, Necrons and Orks.

Probably unlikely. During His reign, He was very clear about NOT adopting alien technology and ridding them from the galaxy by reason of manifest destiny (the galaxy is fated to belong to humans).

The better odds are that resistance against the Tau, and all xenos scum, will be re-enforced. The Imperium will hopefully not rip asunder in civil war, if it doesn't it will become the solid hammer it once was and sweep aside all resistance in a new Great Crusade!

Kilkrazy wrote:I think the Emperor will come back and make peace with the Tau,

Rather grant them eternal peace. Delivered as "Rest in peace"

Skinnattittar is right, next great crusade will cleanse and purify. You may find this in the book of rulez, page 116.

Personaly there are no good or evil army as it from what point you stand take choas mostly seen as evil but they are just trying to plaese there gods like a space marine is trying to plaese the emperor so are they evil cos i don't see that as evil so they are all shades of grades but some are much darker then others and tau are properly the lightess

next when the emperor gets up (if he does or just reborn) he will try to kill the other race's like before but he will fail like before inless he gets help to kill the xeno like the eldar so he properly go to the tau "i won't kill you if you give me techogly and be my slave for the army" BUT he will kill the guy on the chair and there fellowors

It's more of an Order/Disorder than Good/Evil. In that regard, the Tau would be considered 'good'(fostering order).

The main thing that irks about the Tau is their rigid social structure and general anti-individualism.

And as far as my personal "affinity ratings":

Good
Tau
Imperium
Craftworld Eldar, Exodites, and Harlequins

Neutral
Orks
Tyranids
Eldar Raiders/Pirates

Evil
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Forces of Chaos

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I think the Emperor will come back and make peace with the Tau, and let them ally with a liberalised Imperium so that numbers and technology can be combined to rid the Galaxy of Nids, Necrons and Orks.

Probably unlikely. During His reign, He was very clear about NOT adopting alien technology and ridding them from the galaxy by reason of manifest destiny (the galaxy is fated to belong to humans).

The better odds are that resistance against the Tau, and all xenos scum, will be re-enforced. The Imperium will hopefully not rip asunder in civil war, if it doesn't it will become the solid hammer it once was and sweep aside all resistance in a new Great Crusade!

That is just propaganda made up by the High Lords of Terra to justify their repressive regime.

TAU [t'ou]

Noun (plural): See xenos scum

"I don't care if they are fighting each other, they're still xenos scum! Fire at will!"

Verdict: Evil

Kilkrazy wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I think the Emperor will come back and make peace with the Tau, and let them ally with a liberalised Imperium so that numbers and technology can be combined to rid the Galaxy of Nids, Necrons and Orks.

Probably unlikely. During His reign, He was very clear about NOT adopting alien technology and ridding them from the galaxy by reason of manifest destiny (the galaxy is fated to belong to humans).
The better odds are that resistance against the Tau, and all xenos scum, will be re-enforced. The Imperium will hopefully not rip asunder in civil war, if it doesn't it will become the solid hammer it once was and sweep aside all resistance in a new Great Crusade!

That is just propaganda made up by the High Lords of Terra to justify their repressive regime.

Ah yes, and the Tyranid Threat is actually just a big mis-understanding perpetrated by the Necrons, who are just lonely and in need of a hug. Tyranids are actually really nice and don't want to eat your face at all!

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I think the Emperor will come back and make peace with the Tau, and let them ally with a liberalised Imperium so that numbers and technology can be combined to rid the Galaxy of Nids, Necrons and Orks.

Probably unlikely. During His reign, He was very clear about NOT adopting alien technology and ridding them from the galaxy by reason of manifest destiny (the galaxy is fated to belong to humans).
The better odds are that resistance against the Tau, and all xenos scum, will be re-enforced. The Imperium will hopefully not rip asunder in civil war, if it doesn't it will become the solid hammer it once was and sweep aside all resistance in a new Great Crusade!

That is just propaganda made up by the High Lords of Terra to justify their repressive regime.

Ah yes, and the Tyranid Threat is actually just a big mis-understanding perpetrated by the Necrons, who are just lonely and in need of a hug. Tyranids are actually really nice and don't want to eat your face at all!

The Tyranids don't have anything to do with the Tau.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I think the Emperor will come back and make peace with the Tau, and let them ally with a liberalised Imperium so that numbers and technology can be combined to rid the Galaxy of Nids, Necrons and Orks.

Probably unlikely. During His reign, He was very clear about NOT adopting alien technology and ridding them from the galaxy by reason of manifest destiny (the galaxy is fated to belong to humans).
The better odds are that resistance against the Tau, and all xenos scum, will be re-enforced. The Imperium will hopefully not rip asunder in civil war, if it doesn't it will become the solid hammer it once was and sweep aside all resistance in a new Great Crusade!

That is just propaganda made up by the High Lords of Terra to justify their repressive regime.

Ah yes, and the Tyranid Threat is actually just a big mis-understanding perpetrated by the Necrons, who are just lonely and in need of a hug. Tyranids are actually really nice and don't want to eat your face at all!

The Tyranids don't have anything to do with the Tau.

Well I figured that while we were making things up....

To me anyone claming to be working towards the "greater good" while killing/enslaving/conquering is full of it. I voted evil!

And I've been playing tau for about a year (just so you know where my bias is coming from)

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I think the Emperor will come back and make peace with the Tau, and let them ally with a liberalised Imperium so that numbers and technology can be combined to rid the Galaxy of Nids, Necrons and Orks.

Probably unlikely. During His reign, He was very clear about NOT adopting alien technology and ridding them from the galaxy by reason of manifest destiny (the galaxy is fated to belong to humans).
The better odds are that resistance against the Tau, and all xenos scum, will be re-enforced. The Imperium will hopefully not rip asunder in civil war, if it doesn't it will become the solid hammer it once was and sweep aside all resistance in a new Great Crusade!

That is just propaganda made up by the High Lords of Terra to justify their repressive regime.

Ah yes, and the Tyranid Threat is actually just a big mis-understanding perpetrated by the Necrons, who are just lonely and in need of a hug. Tyranids are actually really nice and don't want to eat your face at all!

The Tyranids don't have anything to do with the Tau.

Well I figured that while we were making things up....

We're not making things up. We have two competing theories. One holds that everything the fluff tells us is true, and the other holds that there are lies (or propanagda) in the fluff.

Tyranids still have nothing to do with Tau either way.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:As far as 40k goes, Tau are "Good". Which is funny, because they could make perfectly acceptable villains in other settings.

By virtue of the setting they're good, maybe neutral/good. Anywhere else you'd be fighting them tooth and nail.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I think the Emperor will come back and make peace with the Tau, and let them ally with a liberalised Imperium so that numbers and technology can be combined to rid the Galaxy of Nids, Necrons and Orks.

Probably unlikely. During His reign, He was very clear about NOT adopting alien technology and ridding them from the galaxy by reason of manifest destiny (the galaxy is fated to belong to humans).
The better odds are that resistance against the Tau, and all xenos scum, will be re-enforced. The Imperium will hopefully not rip asunder in civil war, if it doesn't it will become the solid hammer it once was and sweep aside all resistance in a new Great Crusade!

That is just propaganda made up by the High Lords of Terra to justify their repressive regime.

Ah yes, and the Tyranid Threat is actually just a big mis-understanding perpetrated by the Necrons, who are just lonely and in need of a hug. Tyranids are actually really nice and don't want to eat your face at all!

The Tyranids don't have anything to do with the Tau.

Well I figured that while we were making things up....

We're not making things up. We have two competing theories. One holds that everything the fluff tells us is true, and the other holds that there are lies (or propanagda) in the fluff.
Tyranids still have nothing to do with Tau either way.

The problem with your "Theory" is that there is a distinct lack of any sort of supporting evidence. However the "Theory," as you put it, that I am backing up is supported by countless words from the back ground, propaganda and otherwise, in story and out story (official word from the authors). So while it is POSSIBLE the idea that humanity is xenophobic to the point that even other humans with similar genetics (supposedly Ratling, Ogryn, and the like are 100% human, but of extreme physical variance) can be considered "alien," stemming all the way back to the Emperor's crusade to place Humanity as prime among the stars and cleanse the rest of the galaxy of all other forms xenos, is all but a propaganda lie, then it is also POSSIBLE that Tyranids are in fact just horribly misunderstood, loveable critters that want to share candy and ice cream with Humanity, settle down with a nice human girl and start a family of hybrids... why to concoct such an elaborate scheme of propaganda and lies to defame Tyranids to the point that all races only see them as mindless, ever hungry munching machines that decimate entire worlds and leaving them completely deviod of life would take some sort of Tactical Gen-CREEEEEED!!!

EDIT : My "Creed" fonting was not epic enough to communicate the level of shear awesome that is Lord Castellan Creed!

I think in there 40k universe there not really true good or evil, you can say chaos is evil but there a some elements in it that say other wise Tzeentch and Nurgle have elements of good in it Tzeentch is responsible for evolution and Nurgle keeps a natural order in the universe.

Games Workshop have said in the past the army's fit in to forces of order and forces of disorder, tau are looking to put some order in the the universe but i wouldn't really call them good guys the idea of the grater good is fine on paper but any one that doesn't join them is killed it sort of feels little like joining the tau empire is joining a dictatorship

I would tend to agree with that. Consider the philosophies of the races:

Imperial Philosophy : Be Human and be Loyal to the Emperor - If not : Death

Tau Philosophy : Be Loyal to Our Ethereals - If not : Death

Eldar Philosophy : ?

Chaos Philosophy : Varies - If not : Death

Ork Philosophy : Fight with me (on my side) - If not : Death (until you run out of things to fight against, then they'll fight you!)

Tyranid Philosophy : Eat everything - If not : Death

Dark Eldar Philosophy : (I don't even want to imagine....) - If not : (again, I don't even want to imagine)

Necron Philosophy : Kill everything - If not : Death

So while everyone has their own philosophy, disagreeing with any of them has the same result.... except for the Dark Eldar..... I'm not sure if I want to know their result.... So therefore good and evil can only be expressed in relative terms from a stance somewhere between two of the groups. For if you tried to view them from the outside, everyone would appear absolutely good AND absolutely evil at the same time.

Even trying to place each group in a 2D line would prove difficult and require assumptions made upon the viewer. As such, this is how I would order them for my own reasons from most "Good" to most "Evil."

Imperium - Eldar - Tau - Orks - Tyranid - Chaos - Dark Eldar - Necrons

All else being equal, Imperium first because as I am a human, I would like to win, Eldar next because they are generally ambivalent and rational (they don't really mess with people other than for self sustainment), Tau because they are generally amiable (you can at least talk with them), Orks because while mostly irrational, what generally motivates them is controllable, and although they enjoy destruction, they prefer fighting over everything being dead, so somewhat rational. Tyranids are akin to Orks, but they will eat everything. Very rational from a particular point of view. Chaos next because they basically just want to destroy and corrupt everything with little care for themselves or others, rather a pathetic mode of operation, if you ask me, no Honor. Dark Eldar are second to most evil, they are irrational, self-absorbed, and unwilling to work with anyone or anything but themselves. Necrons are very last simply because they are THE negative force in the galaxy. They will kill everything because it is what they do, that austere reason being the coldest of all. For no other purpose than to kill do they kill.

I voted good because, in the first Ciaphus Cain novel the Tau help Cain when he is attacked by pro Tau humans, then the Tau also help them on their mission to destroy the genestealer cult even after a member of the imperials killed a kroot. Even though its most likely that it was only because their paths crossed and they were on the same mission they still accepted the Imperials and helped them, whereas other races may have just shot them and gone on with the mission. This is my reasoning but that might just be some Tau not all.