Okay, we hear of Grandfather Nurgle, who offers his minions eternal life, and jealousley watches over them. We have Tzeench, who twists the fate of everything, Who'se power is infinite and yet he broke his crystal staff and relinquished power. We have Slaneesh, lord of pleasure and excess. But are pleasure and excess crimes? Why consider somthing evil just because it is different from the majority? And finnaly, Khorne. Get past all the blood and butchery, is he really worse than a God emporer who see's countless billions of humands die, and yet makes sure those humans are manipulated to think that what they are fighting is scum, no matter what, because it is different. Isn't the Emporer the ultimate opressive dictator?
I see the "loyalists" as fools, and at the same time, i see the Chaos representing the marginalised in society.
Anyone agree/disagree? voice and opinion?

Let me guess. You collect Chaos, don't you?

HERETIC!!!

Nurgle has the right attitdude, but the others are about as evil as you get. They are twisted and cruel hearted to the extreme, nothing is below them. (as Slaanesh has demonstrated time and time again)

haha, yes, i do collect Chaos.
but would you please explain WHY they are twisted and cruel?
having your minions whips, cut and flay themselves isnt evil if they also ENJOY it. Even the Witch Hunters have their flaggalenettes(?) and similar units which whip and punish themselves.

They are the embodiment of the negative emotions of mortals.
And as such you could argue they aren't evil since they do not choose how they behave, it's decided for them by humans\eldar etc bad behavior.
However, that doesn't make them good. More like animals if they have no choice. But since they love all their war and torture so much, it's evil in my opinion.

The Emperor and the Imperium, just as evil.
Xenophobia, genocide slavery.

But that's the point. They're only sold as good guys to the 12yr old starting customers to sell toys.
Look at the fluff and it's all Grim Dark and no good no hope.
And that's why so many people enjoy the fluff.

Ah, but the Imperium does what it must to survive in a hostile universe (which does not excuse them entirely, they sometimes overdo it) as compared to the Chaos Gods doing so for fun.

Interesting point Apone. But Then, if the Emporer is Evil, the Eldar is evil, the Chaos are Evil, should we just give the universe to the Necrons?
when everyone is in the mud, does what may be evil in preasant context still count as evil?
When the Tyranid infestation sprawls through the universe will we say "oh well, atleast its not like they have a choice. they're just animals. lets let'm have it" ofcourse not, so, whoose gonna stand in they're way? evil?


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to Empoers Faithful: isnt the universe just as hostile to Chaos? the Chaos RETREATED into the eye of terror, its not an act of survival to follow them there

When did the Chaos GODS retreat into the eye of terror? As far as I know, they are entities which grew over time and infested the once safe warp that was made by the old ones?

I believe the chaos gods are just really powerful daemons posing as gods. They also employ lots of daemons. By deffinition daemons are evil spirits. Daemons = evil. pure evil.

Nurgle, spreads disease and death, the "eternal life" he offers, is a wretched half life. Imagine having chicken pox your whole life and not being able to die. It doesnt even compare to how miserable serving nurgle must be.

Slaanesh, god of pleasure and excess. Completely hedonistic. Hedonism never works out well in the real world for an empire, When the romans started going this route, their empire crumbled, just like the eldar. worshipping Slaanesh leads to waste. waste = not good

Tzneetch, probably the least evil chaos god, but still evil. He's always fething things up for everyone.

Khorne, god of killing, rage, murder and brutality. Totally evil. I think this one is pretty much self explanitory.

Besides, why justify the chaos gods as good? I think the fun of playing chaos is getting to be the bad guys. Every good story has a good villain.

and as far as all these people saying the Imperium is totally evil, there are some really valiant, noble, honest, self serving, honorable and all around "good" space marines, Imperial guardsmen, and SOB out there. hell there's even some Inquisitors i'd call good.

i concede to EF's latest point. But lets not get into the 1000 time done issue of who was right in the Heresy.
but i have still not seen you give a point as to why the Chaos Gods are evil. all i've seen is that the imperium attempts to survive in a "hostile" universe

Let's see here:

Nurgle "protects" his followers by giving them diseases that cause so much pain they can't feel any other pain. In essence, he condemns them to eternal agony.

Tzeench's favor lasts as long as your usefullness, and your defeat will already be planned out.

Khorne will kill you the moment there is more blood to be spilt from you than by you.

Slaneesh gets bored really easily and will eat your soul if he feels like it.

to Norwulf. Its made quite clear in all chaos texts that followers of nurgle feel very little at all. they are not miserable, they are doted upon.
And Hedonism is a moralistic view. i' e never come accross a moralistic imperative that is acctuall right. (Utilitariansim, such as the imperium, justifies Slavery and torture)


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Slaneesh never eat the soul of Lucius. in contrary, he made it so that Lucius' soul could inhabit any body.

Yeah, nurgle gives you eternal life, makes you immune to pain, etc. But i think I would much rather be able to die than spend eternaty giving people a realy nasty cold. Giving the entire galaxy herpes just doesnt seem like something a good guy would do. IMO the cons outway the pros.

BHaha! Ouch norwulf, that's contempt if ever i knew it.
but a fair point behind it. But surley thers the pro of being a eternal sensationless warrior compared to being a pain-feeling scared warrior (that has a leadership of 8!)

IF there is such a thing that can be called evil, the Chaos Gods (uber-deamons) are right up there.

Norwulf wrote:...hell there's even some Inquisitors i'd call good.

Thanks, mate

And WHY are they up there, as opposed to a decaying "empoerer" that sits on a GOLDEN throne while sending so many people to they're death? Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Daemon Hunters, there are four whole races fighting for the emperor!

Bascilica wrote:BHaha! Ouch norwulf, that's contempt if ever i knew it.
but a fair point behind it. But surley thers the pro of being a eternal sensationless warrior compared to being a pain-feeling scared warrior (that has a leadership of 8!)

No contempt aimed at you bro, iz all good. (as for Nurgle, im totally gonna go NFW on your pox covered ass!)
yeah, there's totally pros to serving nurgle. But I myself would rather be something else in the 40k universe. I gotta admit death guard are cool. My favorite CSM army is deffinitly night lords though, as i like the way they wage war. Psychological warfare FTW!

There's a defence between ruthless necessity and sadism.

They are fighting for thier survival (and protecting the people of the Imperium) while the Chaos Gods are doing it for fun.

Bascilica wrote:And WHY are they up there, as opposed to a decaying "empoerer" that sits on a GOLDEN throne while sending so many people to they're death? Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Daemon Hunters, there are four whole races fighting for the emperor!

Because, you know, the Emperor doesn't actually have a choice about that. He was put there when Chaos corrupted his son, who severely wounded him before the Emperor killed him.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:There's a defence between ruthless necessity and sadism.

They are fighting for thier survival (and protecting the people of the Imperium) while the Chaos Gods are doing it for fun.

I agree. Almost every other faction in the galaxy would kill all humans, torture all humans forever, eat all humans, or eat the souls of all humans were the Imperium not so ruthless in it defense of its people.

(Coming from the Red guy wiv da axe, mabye we should listen to this bit of inside info...)

If the imperium didnt launch attacks, if it only responded, if it created huge blockades and an impenetrable space fort, then i would consider them prehapse not as bad as chaos seems to be. But, they are launching attacks. They are virus-bombing plannets! The Spacewolves destroy'd the home of the Thousand Sons, did the Thousand Sons ever destroy the home of another race?
No, they simply chose to follow somone else. Is it okay to go and kill somone because they follow a different political leader or club?

From the BGB 4th edition: "In times of darkness, it is wise to follow the blind man, In times of madness, should we not also follow the madman?" it went something like that, it's not verbatum.

The Imperium has to be utterly ruthless and cruel, they can't afford to be anything but space facists because then mutation, heresy and betrayal would overrun them. The emporer may have some harsh rule goin on, but it really is for the better of humanity. If you've seen and or read "Watchmen" (preferably read) than compare him with Ozymandias, yes he killed millions of innocent people, but in the end it was a necessary evil. The words "necessary evil" sum up the Imperium enitrely I think.

Mutation is simply a deviant from the normal. if there went mutation, there would be no evolution. and Herest and Betrayal? Frankly, Heasy and Betrayl against a Facist Lunatic madman dictator isnt a bad thing at all.
yeah, i've seen Watchmena nd have the comic. Ozymandias was a... well, i didnt like him.

it seems to be 1 against three... but then, to bow to a majority though would be an imperialist way about it, to submit simply because thats the environment your in.

I didnt like him either, in fact i thought ozymandias was a colossal dick! (I like Rorshach, we need more of him in the world) but what ol' ozzy did was necessary. Otherwise the russians would have nuked the U.S. and then there's retalitory strikes, war marchs on etc. When Ozymandias killed all those people, it was a mere handful campared to the alternative. Also he achieved world peace by doin this.

I have never witnessed or heard of a beneficial mutation in real life. Also there's holes and contridictions in the fluff regarding mutation, (sanguinus) but the imperium is constantly beset by danger and the Iron rule of the emprah is the only thing keeping humanity going. If all of humanity was to follow the chaos gods, they would end up losing their humanity, just look at fulgrim. The chaos gods would mold them as they see fit and treat them like pawns, it's not much better than serving the imperium but it's better than being some kind of tentacled horned pus spewing thingy. IMO anyhoo.

BTW, Ozymandias' plan failed in the end. (Rorshachs journal made it to the paper, so they'll know it's a lie)

Emperors Faithful wrote:BTW, Ozymandias' plan failed in the end. (Rorshachs journal made it to the paper, so they'll know it's a lie)

Oh yeah! I spaced that part. That was one of my favorite parts, how could i forget? I love how they give Rorshach the last laugh. He's my favorite super hero, he even stole the #1 from Batman in my book, (which was a monumental feat)

yeah, lets move away from watchmen and back to topic.

Never head or useful Mutation? what are wings? aposable thumbs? i tell you, they havnt always existed. feet! we were all fishes, every party of your biology was once a mutation that caused an active benefit to a creature, hence why Mutation is not a bad thing.

Bascilica wrote:yeah, lets move away from watchmen and back to topic.

Never head or useful Mutation? what are wings? aposable thumbs? i tell you, they havnt always existed. feet! we were all fishes, every party of your biology was once a mutation that caused an active benefit to a creature, hence why Mutation is not a bad thing.

Gonna have to disagree with you here, i dont consider that a mutation, rather design. When something is "mutated" it usually means there is some kind of error or defect in the creatue's chromosome. But you are entitled to believe whatever you choose to, I'm all for people having whatever opinion they like. I really dont wanna turn this thread into a religious philosphical debate. (why does that always happen? I gotta learn to avoid these subjects)

The reason mutation is bad for the empire is it causes people to lose their humanity after a while, and preserving humanity is everything the Imperium stands for. If all the humans decided to accept the chaos gods nurgle would have everyone covered in boils and sores, they'd end up looking like giant walking pusbags, khorne would shape them into fanged, horned monstrosities, tzneetch would make people into indescribable horrors, and slaanesh would give evryone one boob! One BOOB! what could be more horrific? lol

lol at Slaanesh.
frankly, i dont want to give you a lecture in the principals surrounding the complexities of darwinian theory either.
oh, and Tzeench daemons are always happy and cheerful and smart! the Horrors have an awsome time, the Flamers bob around cooly ly and hwile the screamers are a little bit stupider, they're always good fun for the player...

Emperors Faithful wrote:(Coming from the Red guy wiv da axe, mabye we should listen to this bit of inside info...)

So you want inside info, eh? Well I'll tell you a story. You see, as part of the benefits package of working for Chaos, we get our own cafeteria with food cooked personally by the Chaos gods. There is a bit of a problem though. Khorne only ever serves raw meat, which gets kinda tiring after a while. When we got a daemon to spy on him, we found out that he actually doesn't know how to use the grill (the only thing he set on fire was himself). But every time someone offers to teach him, he gets mad and chops them up. Tzneetch serves us junk food, except for his followers. This is great, except for the fact that we found out that this is actually a cunning plan to make all the followers of the other Chaos gods too fat to fight. Fiendishly clever, that one. It's generally better for your health and sanity if I don't mention what Nurgle and Slaneesh consider food. Just the thought of it is enough to make most people, including their followers, hurl. there has only been one time that someone ate Hurgle's food. It was Lucius the Eternal, on a dare. He died after the first bite. Slaneesh waited a month before bringing him back. We don't actually know what happened during that time, and Lucius refuses to talk about it. We do know, however (from a daemon that listened at the door), that it involved shaving cream, a toilet plunger, and an Ork named Bubba.

I myself have studied Darwin's theories along with others, but whenever i discuss it with people it always turns into a long-winded, heated debate that leaves no one satisfied and causes hurt feelings and anger. So yeah, it all comes down to what your opinion is.

Like i said Tzneetch is probably the least evil among the four. Still I think if he (she?) had his way humans would end up nothing but a memory. IIRC, the main objective of chaos is ultimately burning the whole galaxy to nothing but a cinder and unleashing the warp into reality casuing utter madness and terror everywhere. The chaos gods are born of negitive emotions from sentiant beings, so it would make sense that they wish to achieve the ends that the emotions they are born of usually lead to. Fear, rage, hubris, arrogance, cruelty, manipulation, sickness, pride, death, destruction, recklessness, decay, selfishness, terror, all of these are just some of what the choas gods are made of, and they usually lead to evil, or come from it.


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Deathbot wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:(Coming from the Red guy wiv da axe, mabye we should listen to this bit of inside info...)

So you want inside info, eh? Well I'll tell you a story. You see, as part of the benefits package of working for Chaos, we get our own cafeteria with food cooked personally by the Chaos gods. There is a bit of a problem though. Khorne only ever serves raw meat, which gets kinda tiring after a while. When we got a daemon to spy on him, we found out that he actually doesn't know how to use the grill (the only thing he set on fire was himself). But every time someone offers to teach him, he gets mad and chops them up. Tzneetch serves us junk food, except for his followers. This is great, except for the fact that we found out that this is actually a cunning plan to make all the followers of the other Chaos gods too fat to fight. Fiendishly clever, that one. It's generally better for your health and sanity if I don't mention what Nurgle and Slaneesh consider food. Just the thought of it is enough to make most people, including their followers, hurl. there has only been one time that someone ate Hurgle's food. It was Lucius the Eternal, on a dare. He died after the first bite. Slaneesh waited a month before bringing him back. We don't actually know what happened during that time, and Lucius refuses to talk about it. We do know, however (from a daemon that listened at the door), that it involved shaving cream, a toilet plunger, and an Ork named Bubba.

LMAO!! All of those got to be better than imperial rations.

Norwulf wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deathbot wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:(Coming from the Red guy wiv da axe, mabye we should listen to this bit of inside info...)

So you want inside info, eh? Well I'll tell you a story. You see, as part of the benefits package of working for Chaos, we get our own cafeteria with food cooked personally by the Chaos gods. There is a bit of a problem though. Khorne only ever serves raw meat, which gets kinda tiring after a while. When we got a daemon to spy on him, we found out that he actually doesn't know how to use the grill (the only thing he set on fire was himself). But every time someone offers to teach him, he gets mad and chops them up. Tzneetch serves us junk food, except for his followers. This is great, except for the fact that we found out that this is actually a cunning plan to make all the followers of the other Chaos gods too fat to fight. Fiendishly clever, that one. It's generally better for your health and sanity if I don't mention what Nurgle and Slaneesh consider food. Just the thought of it is enough to make most people, including their followers, hurl. there has only been one time that someone ate Hurgle's food. It was Lucius the Eternal, on a dare. He died after the first bite. Slaneesh waited a month before bringing him back. We don't actually know what happened during that time, and Lucius refuses to talk about it. We do know, however (from a daemon that listened at the door), that it involved shaving cream, a toilet plunger, and an Ork named Bubba.

LMAO!! All of those got to be better than imperial rations.

No. There is a reason we try to order take out as much as possible. Unidentifiable, tasteless, and capable of surviving some forms of exterminatus sounds delicious next to what we get in the cafeteria. OK, Tzneetch's food isn't so bad, but he's trying to make us too fat to fight. No one can tell what it is that Slaneesh cooks, and no one really wants to know either. Sometimes we see it moving. Even Nurgle's followers can't stand to look at his food for more than 2 seconds without hurling. Khorne beheads anyone in line who looks like he doesn't like his food enough.

I imagine that Tau takeout is really good but leaves you hungry again in an hour. I cant get that in my sector as we're under strict orders to shoot tau ships on sight. I'm surpised Slaaesh doesnt make alot of cookies and bonbons! being the god of pleasure and all.

Hey, is the Star child considered a chaos god? From what i understand he's a good guy.

Norwulf wrote:I imagine that Tau takeout is really good but leaves you hungry again in an hour. I cant get that in my sector as we're under strict orders to shoot tau ships on sight. I'm surpised Slaaesh doesnt make alot of cookies and bonbons! being the god of pleasure and all.

Hey, is the Star child considered a chaos god? From what i understand he's a good guy.

Tau takeout is OK. I myself prefer Imperial takeout. Don't forget that Slaneesh is also the god of perversion, depravity, and excess. That tends to affect his cooking. Incidentally, he does, but they tend to have tentacles or *ahem* "various orifices" covering them. They move around a lot. Would you eat that?

The Star Child is a piece of the Emperor's soul taking form in the warp. It is theorized that if he dies, he will be reborn as the Star Child and fight the Chaos gods personally.

Ummm probably not, although I've yet to eat a creature i didnt like.
I dont know the source on the star child mythos, Ive only collected bits and pieces form the internets and guys from my FLGS. But the idear of the Emprah becoming an actual god and fighting choas in the warp sounds really cool. I wonder if Gork and or Mork would make an apperance, hearing that there's a good scrap goin down.

Norwulf wrote:Ummm probably not, although I've yet to eat a creature i didnt like.
I dont know the source on the star child mythos, Ive only collected bits and pieces form the internets and guys from my FLGS. But the idear of the Emprah becoming an actual god and fighting choas in the warp sounds really cool. I wonder if Gork and or Mork would make an apperance, hearing that there's a good scrap goin down.

Trust me. If you ever work for Chaos, you will. It's been calculated that 30% of our casualties are caused by our food.

I know. It sounds awesome. I doubt it will happen, though, as:

a. The story would actually move forward in a significant way.

b. Things might *gasp* get better and the setting would be a little less GRIMDARK.

Yeah, we can't have things getting less GRIMDARK, It's too easy. I see the Emprah owning the chaos gods too easily and then chaos would no longer be a threat, the Imperium is thus able to deal with one less enemy, they then could use the warrp rather unhundered, so on and so on.

I'd like it though if the whole star child deal was mentioned in a codex or something, that tiny little sliver of a beacon of hope helps the story I feel. I don't really wanna see it happen, but maybe GW could hint at it now and again. Makes it seem like humanity is'nt just on a crashcourse with oblivion.

Praise the Emperor for his sacrifice,
as He endures so shall we.

No Unholy Deed shall go Unpunished,
all Blasphemous act shall be Atoned.

No Spawn of Misrule avoids us,
all are banished to the Void.

Nothing Shall evade our Cleansing Fire,
not Deamon or Spawn or Renagade.
For we are Mankind's Divine Blade.

This Forum is Absolved

Norwulf wrote:
I'd like it though if the whole star child deal was mentioned in a codex or something, that tiny little sliver of a beacon of hope helps the story I feel. I don't really wanna see it happen, but maybe GW could hint at it now and again. Makes it seem like humanity is'nt just on a crashcourse with oblivion.

Not to worry. The Imperium is invincible, because it has miniature-sales-fueled plot armor!

But yes, a beacon of hope might be nice.

I worship mainly Nurgle, but Slurgle (Slaanesh/Nurgle) would be awesome in 40k.

Slurgle's main influence on 40K: STD's...

My 7 Cents.

You have discovered one of the fun concepts of the Warhammer universe.

Good vs. Evil =! Law vs. Chaos

The Imperium of man is evil. They sacrifice tens of thousands of souls a year to keep the emperor alive -- who wants to die so his soul can be reborn in a new body. The imperium of man jealously watches over their minons, purging entire planets of life if they show the slightest taint.
The imperium is not trying to survive in a hostile universe. It is a power-hungry group of xenophobic, paranoid, lunatics strangling the life out of their own race.

Chaos is not necessarily evil, its just chaos.
* Tzneetch just wants you to be yourself. He thinks that you would look better with glowing eyes *poof*. He thinks that you would look better with tenticles for toes *poof* Tzneetch is just helping you really express your true self.

* Slannesh just wants to enjoy life. Life is short, get off as much as possible (Henry Rollins)

* Nurgle just wants to be your friend. In fact, Nurgle is throwing a party and your invited. Their are coming over and bringing the beer. If you start shooting them, their going to defend themselves! If you were just just hang out and join the party, there would be no violence.

* Khorne loves kids. Really, he does! Blood for the blood god is all about fighting and honor. When Khornites find children, they let them grow up to become strong warriors to join in the game.

labmouse42 wrote:* Khorne loves kittens. Really, he does! Balls of String for the Kitten god is all about milk and lolcats. When Khornites find kittens, they let them grow up to become cutie-pants to join in the fun.

Corrected.

labmouse42 wrote:You have discovered one of the fun concepts of the Warhammer universe.

Good vs. Evil =! Law vs. Chaos

The Imperium of man is evil. They sacrifice tens of thousands of souls a year to keep the emperor alive -- who wants to die so his soul can be reborn in a new body. The imperium of man jealously watches over their minons, purging entire planets of life if they show the slightest taint.
The imperium is not trying to survive in a hostile universe. It is a power-hungry group of xenophobic, paranoid, lunatics strangling the life out of their own race.

Chaos is not necessarily evil, its just chaos.
* Tzneetch just wants you to be yourself. He thinks that you would look better with glowing eyes *poof*. He thinks that you would look better with tenticles for toes *poof* Tzneetch is just helping you really express your true self.

* Slannesh just wants to enjoy life. Life is short, get off as much as possible (Henry Rollins)

* Nurgle just wants to be your friend. In fact, Nurgle is throwing a party and your invited. Their are coming over and bringing the beer. If you start shooting them, their going to defend themselves! If you were just just hang out and join the party, there would be no violence.

* Khorne loves kids. Really, he does! Blood for the blood god is all about fighting and honor. When Khornites find children, they let them grow up to become strong warriors to join in the game.

The Lords of Terra and the Eccliesiarchy are Evil, Chaos is influencing them because they know if the emperor dies well and truly that thay are going to get totally screwed.

Something I liked about Warhammer is that there are no infantile metaphysical dichotomies like Good vs Evil or Law vs Chaos. There's simply Chaos.

good and evil are created by the majority opinion.. if everyone accepted the gifts and ideology of the gods then they wouldn't be evil. good and evil are figments of the human mind. Deer don't think a wolf is evil. As far as defining the evil or good by intention, you can bs your view as much as you want but no group as a whole is good in any shape. Saying they have to kill their own because someone else is cruel is ridiculous. The dictatorship of the imperium is no better than being a chaos cultist. At least the majority of the chaos followers chose(not saying they're right).. both sides aren't very forgiving in ideals. Anything taken to an extreme is bad.

I think the current background leaves little doubt that the Gods are baddies. I'd like it if it was a little bit less cut and dried, more of a traditional "choice vs. duty" argument, cos that's cool.

(I'm twitching at the incorrect understanding of mutation, but I'll let it lie because you guys are having a fun thread )

I don't really think the Chaos Gods are evil as such, but their values differ so greatly from the Imperium that they're labelled as evil. Now, they're not good either, but I believe they're representative of the darker side of us all, which the Imperium is trying to stamp out. If anything, the Chaos Gods are a necessary force in the Universe- if the Imperium was left to its own devices, it might've been even worse

Khorne is bloodthirsty and ruthless, but at the same time has a code of honour (he generally refuses to fight against the weak). In a sense, he is no different than the typical description of a warrior-deity.

Nurgle may pass disease and pestilence to millions in the Universe, but at the same time he has been known to show pity (he fought Slaanesh for Isha), and protects his followers from pain...even if it is in a disgusting way.

Slaanesh embodies desire and greed. While he/she/it takes it to the extreme (like all other Chaos Gods), it is again a typical trait of Humans, and is merely nothing more than one side of us that we're usually ashamed of.

Tzeentch I consider to be the most 'evil' of the Chaos Gods, if I had to choose one. He is always scheming, and thinks nothing of sacrificing his own (even Lords of Change) if it will ultimately provide the resolution he foresaw. He represents the worst in us- the side that schemes and lies to promise a changed world. His followers don't even know what part they play in his schemes most of the time and are just treated as pawns. Evil though? Whether he is or not, it's a trait many people have and he represents it perfectly.

The Imperium (particularly the Inquisition) definitely has an evil streak at times, but with all the threats surrounding the Imperium in 40k a lot of people see it as the lesser of two evils. The people of the Imperium assume their way is correct. Obviously, Chaos is intended to be the antagonist to the Imperium, but as to whether Chaos is truly evil...I really don't know.

The Chaos Gods don't have values; they are values.

Take Khorne for example: It's mindless nihilistic violence, so of course the favour of Khorne is going to be drawn to MAD-style situations rather than merely beating on the weak and feeble - that's too much like good sense and planning, and not likely enough to end up with everyone dead.

Carefully planned strategic violence, controlled change directed towards an end, is the province of Tzeentch, less so because of any particular end, but rather the directedness of it, the positive principle of direction and structure. A worshipper of Tzeentch would murder the innocent if it advances her schemes, and would likewise protect them if it advanced her schemes, and would protect them to murder them herself if that advanced her schemes. It's not about the innocent, it's about agenda.

Likewise Nurgle's corruption and indiscriminate nature inflicts the same static cycle of decay on everyone, regardless. The same insensitivity to interest shown by Khorne and Tzeentch, sharing the energy of Khorne with the inevitability of Tzeetch to make Nurgle didn't save Isha so much as condemn that Daemon to the fate of all daemons of Nurgle: eternal suffering and flux. Where Khorne's nihilism is destructive and Tzeentch is creative, Nurgle is stasis, a repeating pattern all the way down, an unchanging cycle.

Of all the Chaos Gods Slaanesh can best be described as having something akin to motivation precisely because that is what Slaanesh is: motivation to do and be and sense. Of course this motivation is ultimately as nihilistic as the rest of the Dark Powers, as Slaanesh has no meta-motivation, no reason for motivating. So motivation instead turns in upon itself, turning pride to vainglory, ambition into greed, and hunger into avarice. There is no hope or despair or rage, but merely the swelling wave of self-ecstasy which dissipates itself into nothingness.

The best description of the Chaos Gods' motivations are found in the description of Chaos Spawn in Codex: Chaos Space Marines where it points out that they are fickle arrational and disinterested in the well-fare of their followers. Any Champion 'favoured' by the Gods is merely lucky when it comes to drawing their attention, thriving under their gaze rather than being destroyed. My sense is that if a Daemon gives you what you want, it's because it would have given it to you anyways whether you wanted it or not, and will benefit you only insofar as your interests match the Daemon's nature.

Managing to hold these interests in balance is what saves you from corruption: the Emperor did it by holding his Great Crusade out as a threat to the dominion of the Gods, so that while they put aside their differences to crush his ascendancy, humanity could grow and flourish in an orgy of violence, anguish, despair and hope for the Golden Future.

Likewise Abbadon remains himself, rather than having damned himself to the half-life immortality of daemonhood, because he employs the Dark Powers to his own end rather than reveling in their separate aspects. Rather than giving into the selfish nihilism of each Power, he solves the Riddle of Chaos by devoting himself to something beyond his own interest: winning the Long War.

That's how Chaos Space Marines fall from being Space Marines, when before they were powerful because they could put the goals of the Chapter, Company, and Squad before their own survival, they put their own interests for and forgo the benefits of selflessness. From there it's an inward spiral into madness as they lose their purpose, their body, and finally their soul to the ravages of Chaos.

So why is the Realm of Chaos, a teeming sea of infinite energy something to terrible and nihilistic? Because it is nothingness, it is the ending of all things, the empty vacuum from which time and space spring, forced into being by osmotic pressure on surface of all that potentiality. It's like the Dreaming in the Sandman, or the Immateria in Promethea, except that it has no being or extension or nature, those things being defined by having limits and boundaries and structure. To accept the infinite potentiality of Chaos is to reject what is real, what is actual, in favour of the nothing.

Remember, the Imperium is the way it is now directly because of the Chaos Gods. Had they not corrupted Horus, the Imperium would be a very different place.
And the Chaos Gods are sentient. They choose to instigate all those terrible events like at Gheistos.

If you read Codex: Chaos Daemons it points out that such things as the ascription of sentiency to the Chaos Gods is merely a convenient fiction or metaphor used to make sense of entities that are outside of the frames of reference within which ascriptions of sentience or sapience make sense.

HERETIC

@Nurglitch: But the Chaos Gods did not ALWAYS exist. (Slaanesh had a definite birthday). Wasn't the warp once a safe place, built by the old ones?

Emperors Faithful:

I think the important thing to note is that existence is something that you have in space and time. Outside of space and time 'existence' is meaningless.

According to Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.7, The Birth of Slaanesh:

"That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe, in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed."

So how does something exist and yet no exist? Dichotomies like this indicate several things. In classical semantics they entail anything and everything, which is cool for its implications for Chaos. In anti-foundational semantics they entail a diagonal to established axis, making paradoxes like Russel's Beard vulnerable to solutions involving diagonal arguments. But the thing about diagonal arguments is that they indicate a space or structure outside of the space in which the paradox occurs.

So Slaanesh has only existed as an entity in the material universe for as long as the Fall of the Eldar and the opening of the Eye of Terror, but has had a different nature outside of space and time which eventually caused its existence in space and time to materialize.

So while "safe" and "place" might describe areas of the material world, I don't think they could ever apply to the Warp except as metaphors for the Dark Powers being pre-occupied with each other, rather than having their attention drawn to reality.

Something mentioned in Codex: Chaos Space Marines is how Space Marines Librarians are corrupted to the service of Chaos, by drawing the attention of the Warp as well as its power. I'd suggest it's like that for everything corrupted by the Dark Powers: some action is done for selfish or absent reasons: Space Marines indulging in a bit of needless bloodshed (Marines Malevalont at Armageddon), an Inquisitor dealing pain just to savour the sight of heretics suffering, an Imperial Govenor using funds to war against his peers rather than to fund hab-zone sanitation in the Hives under his control, even aggrandizing some Imperial cult and plying them with gifts and favours in return for supporting his actions.

Where a Librarian draws the Eye of the Gods by drawing on the essence, or the nothingness, of existence to reshape it to his will, so do the others turn inward to the pit.

Of course, the Chaos 'Gods' aren't really gods in that sense. They are merely powerful deamon entities. And you have not answered my approach that concerned the nature of the warp BEFORE chaos came. (aka the time of the old ones)

Actually in the strictest sense they are Gods. They are both prior to and necessary for reality: they are both natural and supernatural, theistic, immortal, and beyond mortal comprehension. The fact that they're ravenous daemons rather than benevolent demiurges simply makes them malefic rather than benevolent.

Also, the Warp is Chaos. See p.6 of Codex: Chaos Daemons:

"The Realm of Chaos, also known as the Warp, the Immaterium or Warpspace, is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of matter and life, without laws of time and space. It is a rando, unstructured dimension of pure energy and unfocused consciousness. It is Chaos, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose. Warpspace is Chaos, Chaos is Warpspace; the two are indivisible."

How do the old ones and the star child bit fit in?

The old ones created the warp to act as thier interstellar highway. Much like the webway, but not as restricted. After the old ones lost the war with the C'tan the warp fell into disrepair and slowly became infested with all manner of nastiness. It still works, but is now a real threat to any who travel upon it. (Deamons and Warp storms etc)

First I'd like to say im privilaged to have somone as knowledgable as Nurglitch discussing somthing with me.

to continue:
I think one thing that all the big figures sitting around writing codex's and editing black-library books make sure of is ambiguity. In Space Wolf, W.King, we see that the chapters selection from the average is in fact brutal, and morally wrong. Yet they are protecting the universe? in Lord of the Night by S.Spurrier, we see a Chaos Marine who, while causing great amounts of pain and evil, is looking for a gift from his father-figurer, and honestly belives in his own set of virtues, including that the Emporer turned his back first. Im not saying it's correct, but Ambiguity is prevelant. And Grey Templar has not yet given a reason to his (apparent) belif in the evil of chaos.

Well thats just the Inquisitor inside me.

I think that the Chaos gods are simply the manifestation of the side of any sentient being that is prone to evil. that they all came into being at somepoint, like Slannesh.

If you want pure evil you have the C'tan and the Necrontyr.

I wouldnt even call the necrons evil, if you go back far enough to when they were still flesh the old ones gave them the boot and didnt even help them with thier medical issues, heck I think the old ones tried to off them. So in resoponse they tried to take what the needed to live( at least longer and not with radiotion posioning), and this lead to the arvial of the C'tan and those guys kinda tricked them in to becomeing mindless zombie robots, and the C'tan are realy just large predaetors looking for the next meal. also I am a bad speller so yeah.

ok yea necrons are victims the C'tan are predators but the do enjoy terrorizing sentients

I ve read the fluff and I dont even play the guys, heck I hate them on the table, but the defult Necrons are pure evil stuff dosnt seem that well based, yeah they do some messed up stuff, but choas beats that. Worse thing Necrons do you is skin ya and then eat your soul, worst thing choas can do to ya is a lot worse, if slaanesh is involed egad!!!

So how does the star child fit in with the warp? Has he been fighting chaos all along, coexisting with reality and not existing at the same time? as Nurglitch described Slaanesh? I'm not sure the star child mythos is considered canon, but If it was to be mentioned in a new codex, what does that mean? Is is a plot inconsistancy or does it work in sommehow?

I wouldnt call the necrons evil, since they seem to have no free will anymore and have just become tools of the C'tan. the C'tan however, I'd call them evil.

Also, is there anyone older than the old ones?

The C'tan do not consume souls - they consume physical essences, presumably electro-chemical energy or some such. I imagine the whole terror and torture part is just like roasting marshmellows so they're gooey and tasty.

The Star Child was a bad piece of fluff that's been wisely abandoned in post-RT background.

i dont posess a huge amout of knowledge on Necron fluff, but from what i can tell, they're more somthing to be pittied.

What are peoples opinion of the Tyranids in comparrison to the Chaos gods?

chaos is only "evil" because it goes against "normal" human tastes. If you blame chaos for the Imperium's behavior you need to take a look at our own world. Humans can be as monstrous as they as their impulses. Yes the Gods embody some of these but they only embrace what is already there. Ok and saying nurglitch's quoting from the book is genius is a bit of a stretch. Though I applaud someone for using fact for an debate(I believe should be standard).

i agree largley with Warmaster Scott.
the very fact that the conformists belive themselves the good guys is a bit hipocritical im my opinion, as the good guys are usually the ones out there doing somthing original. OKay, obviously, there are exceptions in the many faciast leaders out there, who we often regard as evil. Then, is the Emporer not a fascist leader? doesnt that make the emporer evil?

Nurglitch wrote:

The Star Child was a bad piece of fluff that's been wisely abandoned in post-RT background.

I disagree with you but of course that's just my opinion.

The Chaos gods aren't "all" bad. Tzeentch embodies hope, Khorne embodies martial pride, Slaanesh encourages you to enjoy what you do, Nurgle encourages health. Of course, there are also their bad sides. But they are more complex than "Rwaarr orgy" or "lololol skulls blood awerawetawerrarrrrrr"

This, of course, has also been "not so wisely" abandoned post RT. Now it's for the kiddies who can't understand individuals with complex personalities.

Except that the Chaos Gods aren't individuals with complex personalities. Also, I think that Codeces Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons make them out to be rather complex.

Nurglitch wrote:Except that the Chaos Gods aren't individuals with complex personalities. Also, I think that Codeces Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons make them out to be rather complex.

But they're unique enough to give names. If they're not beings, then are you describing them more as metaphysical enemy ideals? Giving a name to enemy behavior and catergorizing(sp) them then like saying someone is bipolar. So then are they entities of singular purpose or another name to describe particular styles and acts of cruelty? I mean the game is very careful to never really describe the gods except to the most devote(which could be a madman's dream). For me they're as complex as you feel to make them. I like the more obvious enemy then so chuthlu wanna be or shadow figure. For now I'll buy into the codexes complex view because GW made the game so I go with the current fluff. To debate the gods in detail is to debate philosophy .

Bascilica wrote:i dont posess a huge amout of knowledge on Necron fluff, but from what i can tell, they're more somthing to be pittied.

What are peoples opinion of the Tyranids in comparrison to the Chaos gods?

Nids are a monsterous threat from outside the galaxy. i havent heard much about the hive mind to deduce if it is malicious or not. though that is semi beside the point(if somthing's trying to eat you, you probibly don't care if it's evil or not )

Well, firstly, they're the Chaos Gods - consistency and reason isn't something that applies to them. That's not philosophy, that's the background of the game. Likewise, as I keep pointing out, predicates like "being" and "existing" don't apply either, except as metaphors. "Entities" doesn't really work either since that again presumes a frame of reference in which entities can be distinguished from non-entities like locations, states, feelings, etc.

That's leaving aside all the problems of ontology as they relate to actual science.

On a side note, Cthulhu isn't a diety: It's the High Priest of the Star-Spawn in Lovecraft's Cthulhu cycle of stories, and possibly the High Priest in Yellow Silk in "The Dream Quest to Unknown Kadath". It's just another alien from beyond time and space, rather than both from beyond time and space, and constitutive of time and space.

One of the neat things about the background for 40k is that it touches on some interesting theological and philosophical ground concerning the nature of gods and their relationship to humanity, and similar ground to that which Lovecraft touched on: the notion of gods as both beyond mortal comprehension and essentially indifferent to humanity.

However, to quote the character of Davros from Terry Nation's "Genesis of the Daleks", when speaking about the Doctor's claims of being a time traveler (roughly): "This may be beyond my comprehension, but it is not beyond my imagination!"

One of the interesting ways in which people have been imagining things beyond space-time, beyond the usual four dimensions used in science, is through mathematics or well-organized imagination. Most of mathematics is what we can call "well-founded", meaning it exists as a tidy 'tree' of statements derive from some foundational axioms. This body of knowledge, however, is only a fragment of what can be termed "non-well-founded". Non-well-founded mathematics expands beyond the usual boundaries and values in place to make mathematics easily comprehensible, such as absolute consistency, non-circularity, truth, and so on.

Why am I blathering on about these things? Well, my point is that GW's depiction of the Chaos Gods' transcendent is remarkably consistent with both theological views of transcendent beings, philosophical notions of transcendantalism, and mathematical models of dimensionally transcendent objects: they're consistent in their inconsistency.

It's this 'meta' or philosophical turn that makes the Chaos Gods' inconsistency interesting and imaginative, making them both alien and essence to humanity in the manner of God, and making them comprehensible in more than 'mere' metaphors (there's an interesting paper out there solving what's called "the problem of bearerless names" whereby the author points out that language is metaphors all the way down, but let's distinguish between 'mere' or 'live' metaphors, and literal meanings or 'dead' metaphors).

Back to Doctor Who for a moment: An interesting notion that's cropped up in that series consistently is the notion of there being an interaction between communication systems and the phenomena of mind. This is a pretty old philosophical idea that crops up, the notion that phenomena is a combination of both the world and the mind, with the mind having the curious property of going 'beyond the world' (Kant's transcendential a priori, Heidegger's gripping hand, Plato's world of the forms, etc). So there's this notion of the world being composed of form and structure on one hand, and matter on the other hand, and being combined by the mind as the gripping hand.

The Chaos Gods are purely 'mind', all the things that are 'real' to us but can't be touched, measured, or weighed. Take happiness, for example. There's no quanta of happiness, it doesn't have a weight, although it does tend to have a duration. Some might say that it's an emergent property of a person under such-and-such a circumstance, but that's equally remarkable for being a 'level' of reality that's transcending the underlying phenomena.

Conversely the phenomena of happiness makes no sense if we try to consider it apart from its consistituent phenomena, without people or reasons. The Realm of Chaos is such a disconnected or disembodied phenomena like that, making no sense because it seems disconnected from the underlying matter.

Not entirely disconnected though, because although we are told that the Realm of Chaos is pure emotion unencumbered by matter, it is parallel to a material world of both matter and emotion, supervening, you could say, though 'subvening' is possibly the more accurate term. I like to think of it as intermixed with reality, as the spaces between atoms and atomic nuclei.

So in an interesting reversal the material world is what gives form and structure to the Realm of Chaos, with people existing like little glow-in-the-dark plankton. The ocean doesn't consume said plankton, but if they die of old age then their bodies do sink into it and dissolve. But that's getting back into metaphor.

Basically the notion I'm trying to express here is that the Chaos Gods are complex precisely because they reflect very complicated notions in philosophy, theology, and mathematics. Philosophically you have issues of their ontology (or lack thereof), the cosmology of how they relate to reality and each other, and how ethical values can be ascribed to them. Theologically you have the issues of how humanity relates to them, being both indifferent and essential to humanity (sort of a converse to the traditional problem of evil: why would the Chaos Gods allow there to be good?). Mathematically, existing beyond space and time, and being inconsistent, self-referential, and having various other strange properties makes statements about them interesting to prove.

Grey Templar wrote:

Bascilica wrote:i dont posess a huge amout of knowledge on Necron fluff, but from what i can tell, they're more somthing to be pittied.

What are peoples opinion of the Tyranids in comparrison to the Chaos gods?

Nids are a monsterous threat from outside the galaxy. i havent heard much about the hive mind to deduce if it is malicious or not. though that is semi beside the point(if somthing's trying to eat you, you probibly don't care if it's evil or not )

The Hive Mind isn't evil, just hungry. It's actually probably one of the nicer enemies of the Imperium in that it actually bears no ill will against you and will not torture you or eat you soul. I personally felt no malice towards the cow that made up the cheeseburger I just ate, I was just hungry and it was food. The Hive Mind is the same way.

Sometimes I get drunk and go for joy rides in my car. Sure, people get killed occasionally when I run them over, but I don't mean to, and it doesn't make me a bad person... Wait, what?

Let me think...... EVIL!!

evil and good is just something invented by man.
Why would other races think like we do?

Because ethics are universal.

Just to point out, people in this thread have been condemning the facist and totalitarian rule of the Imperium, but I have to ask you, in a harsh/grimdark universe such as 40k what is the other option?

When the going gets tough, the tough get going. (Where is that from?)
I'm just saying that in 40k, democracy would = Fail.

As for the harsh measures that the Space Puppehz take with thier recruits, I would think such trials to be perfectly withing the warrior code of the people of Fenris.

Sure, and shoving Jews into ovens is okay with Nazis. That doesn't mean it's actually okay. It means that the Nazis are evil.

Do the jews WANT to be shoved into the gas chambers? No.

Do the warriors of Fenris WANT to face the trials? Yes.

Some people want to be suicide-bombers.

Likewise Khorne Berzerkers want to give their souls to Khorne along with as many people they can kill as possible.

Wanting or choosing to do something that may be self-harmful doesn't make doing so good.

Nurglitch wrote:Sometimes I get drunk and go for joy rides in my car. Sure, people get killed occasionally when I run them over, but I don't mean to, and it doesn't make me a bad person... Wait, what?

haha
that an important point. Is there a difference between Negligence and Instinct?

To Emporers Faithful, through out the trials, Ragnar was terrified, and i solumly belive that if he'd known every terrible thing that'd happened in those trials, he wouldn't have wanted to go, and nor would the others.

Where does it describe the trials? All I've heard of is that they never mention it.

Besides, a terrorist bomber kills OTHERS, as does a Khorne zerker. This is cuasing pain and suffering on others who are not so inclined.

The men of fenris CHOSE to go THEMSELVES along with these trials, and it was thier choice. Their choice entirely which did not negatviely affect anyone else. (Like, I suppose, jumping off a brigde. Not an ideal situation, but it's thier choice)

the trials are throughout the whole first book of Space Wolf by William King.
and they dont choose, they're chosen and told that if they dont suceed by going thruogh the trials they will die.

I once saw Khorne Rick-Roll a homeless man, now that's proper grade-A evil!

Nurglitch wrote:Except that the Chaos Gods aren't individuals with complex personalities. Also, I think that Codeces Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons make them out to be rather complex.

You're right, they're more like entities and ideas.

And how do these 2 codices make them to be rather complex?

The CSM codex talking about Khorne is "He loves killing stuff." Which is true. But that is only one side.

The only individual that is really shown as complex is Tzeentch, but that's his "physical" description if you will.

I don't have the abortion of the codex known as Daemons so I wouldn't know about how it presents the gods.

@nurglitch
When I brought up philosophy it was because it determining the definition of good and evil on human terms. Ethics are not universal. It's another human construct to keep the order humans so crave.

Nids are not evil they're just a bigger predator that humans can't cope with because of they're need to stay on top of the food chain. The need of the tyranids to eat and reproduce is a natural reflex of most organisms. The Imperium have always been harsh. From the get go they wanted to eliminate anyone who had different thoughts(nazi, stalin, saddam, etc) or wasn't human. The human race has developed an entitlement and arrogance complex.

But Chaos is much better?
I fail to see your argument in justifying the 'goodieness' of Chaos.

Either there is no good or evil, or Chaos are the EPITOME of evil. (With DE not far behind)

I'd say:

Chaos daemons are made from evil. Which isn't necessarily the same as being evil.

The mortal servants of Chaos are usually evil in the traditional sense, though.

No one is knowledgeable enough about the Tyranids to say whether they're evil or not. (Except maybe Tiggerius. Or whatever his name is.)

They're all bad..especially khore, and he can't be justified just because the emperor is similar. First of all they both have different goals the emperor had a bunch that i don't feel like naming and khore just kills for pleasure.

i think yo'll find that the DE are much more cruel, in my opinion, than chaos, even Slaanesh. Even then, i still dont see them as Evil. And is Killing for pleasure just the same hedonistic additude as spending lots of money on chocolates? either way your still causing somone else pain and/or death (under-paid workers pick cocoa for cadbury).
Is anyone who buys a chocolate as evil as Khorne, or is Khorne as innocent as anyone buying a chocolate?

You don't know how all chocolates are made. (one might buy eco-friendly or somesuch).

Besides, where Slaanesh is the EPTIOME, the epiphany, the ultimate of said vices, the DE are merely strongly influenced by them. (They also show the farthest human society can fall, as the wierd stuff by Slaanesh is in many cases quite impossible)

well if its impossible and yet these skinned people live ( as shown in Daemon World, Ben Counter) then has not Slaanesh not gifted these people witht eh agnificent ability to draw plpeasure from themselves to an eternal extent?

I`d say that it`s the producers of the chocolate that`s bad. If they told everyone how they make chocolate then they`re sales would fall drasticly. And some chocolate producents have normal workers with lunch breaks and vacations (for example Freia, and i buy all my chocolate from them ).

Why don't these workers who live in bad conditions just get a job with a company who pays more?

Well, as insensitive as this will sound, people who are forced to work in terrible conditions, such as sweatshops or, as people here are saying, a chocolate factory, do so out of necessity. Either it's better paying than working in fields and with better benefits (as is the case in a third world country) or because no other job is available (oompa-loompas).

That's pretty much what I would say as well.

If we're talking about companies buying up large tracts of land that could otherwise be used to grow food and such, then the workers might be in an unfair position. They went from being able to grow their own food to having to either pick chocolate or starve. If they don't have a say in their government, there's even less they can do to try and protect themselves.

Much of the time though, the sweatshops and such are simply offering them a better deal. Not because sweatshops are lovely, but because there's no good alternative. In that situation the "exploitative" corporations are helping people, albeit not to the extent that many would like.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But Chaos is much better?
I fail to see your argument in justifying the 'goodieness' of Chaos.

Either there is no good or evil, or Chaos are the EPITOME of evil. (With DE not far behind)

Im saying there is no true evil between the chaos or imperium. I'm saying its more of a law vs chaos scenario. Humans by nature are creatures who like rules and structure. The Imperium is a very extreme version of law. They say they're doing what they're doing it to save humanity but it's more of keeping a status quo when they attack their own to protect them from themselves. The harsh acts of the imperium(law) are to try to combat extreme chaos. I mean look at histories attempts at combating free will and biological impulses. Humans like control and thats a reason for a spike in science. They want to understand the world so they can change what they don't like. Plastic surgery, cloning, abortion, and a multitude of other things they want to change about nature. The game brings up a lot of neat ideas to think about. I mean salvation through brutality really make you righteous? At what point do you become worse then what your fighting? Are sentient beings the only things capable of "evil." What defines evil? Is it free thought vs being a drone? I love the 40k fluff almost more then the actual game. I mean could you imagine of the Imperium and Eldar could get past their xenophobia and teamed up formally? I mean eldrad and his crew already proved they could take abaddon by themselves.

Imperium and Eldard (That Dick!) have teamed up on several occasions in the past, FYI.

Also, you did not answer my question.
If you were to compare the two, the Imperium would undoubtedly be the 'lesser evil'. When it comes to evilness, Chaos beats everyone by a long shot. Both from thier acts, and from their very nature.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Imperium and Eldard (That Dick!) have teamed up on several occasions in the past, FYI.

Also, you did not answer my question.
If you were to compare the two, the Imperium would undoubtedly be the 'lesser evil'. When it comes to evilness, Chaos beats everyone by a long shot. Both from thier acts, and from their very nature.

Well of course from a perspective of a more sane human of course the Imperium would make more sense, but that due in large part of the society I grew up in. The op doesnt say from a human perspective is chaos good or bad.. it says is it good or bad in general. I still yet don't understand why people associate chaos as bad(in terms of the word itself not the powers of 40k). Chaos is always used to describe the bad guys even in other fantasy etc settings. Chaos promotes survival of the fittest, competition etc which has propelled us where we are. Why then to people wanna reduce it to just stagnant law where there is little growth? I mean one of the biggest times for growth are during stressful times like plagues, war, etc. Though those may be extreme examples. FYI I did know of their teaming up and I suppose the formally part may have been lost but I mean if they were permanent allies and possibly hooked up with other "lesser" evils as you call them to actually create a stable universe.

Allright, to Emporers Faithful: I would strongly sugest reading The Last Wish by Andrezj Sapkowski.
Once you've read that, you can go on about the "lesser evil" but what you have to understand is simple:
THERE IS NO LESSER EVIL. EVIL IS EVIL. THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN TO DO CHANGE IT.
There is no way to say that the imperium is the leser evil compared to Chaos, that is merley being nieve.

LiberatedObject wrote:Well, as insensitive as this will sound, people who are forced to work in terrible conditions, such as sweatshops or, as people here are saying, a chocolate factory, do so out of necessity. Either it's better paying than working in fields and with better benefits (as is the case in a third world country) or because no other job is available (oompa-loompas).

I hear Oompa-loompas have one of the best unions though....

Seems to me the chaos gods would be considered evil by most of the other races, eldar dont seem to hot on em, niether do DE for that matter. nids and necrons seem kinda indifferent to em, and tau probably just hasn't experianced chaos pissin in their cherrios yet. The whole universe either thinks of the chaos gods as evil, or cruelly indifferent holes. except their followers of course.

Bascilica wrote:Allright, to Emporers Faithful: I would strongly sugest reading The Last Wish by Andrezj Sapkowski.
Once you've read that, you can go on about the "lesser evil" but what you have to understand is simple:
THERE IS NO LESSER EVIL. EVIL IS EVIL. THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN TO DO CHANGE IT.
There is no way to say that the imperium is the leser evil compared to Chaos, that is merley being nieve.

So reading this book will automatically cause everyone to realize that the most common views on morality for the last five thousand years are incorrect, and there's no difference between murdering someone and stomping on their foot?

Or am I misunderstanding the post?

To Orkeosaurus.
Yes. It Will. infact, the short story within it simply titled "the lesser evil" will do it.
And you have no evidence to say that that goes back five thousand years.
Theres wrong and worse, but not Evil and a Lesser Evil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and often commonly-held belifs are wrong.
Once upon a time, the majority of people belive the world was flat.

What's the difference between wrong and worse and More Evil and Less Evil?

Five thousand years was a rough guess, but as I don't even know what you're really talking about I can't debate its accuracy. Also, I'm not sure how objectively prove the nature morality in a manner comparable to mathematically proving that the earth is curved.

If "evil" existsat all, then its EVIL, no matter in what form. if its NOT evil, then its not evil. its just bad.
There are no degrees of "evilness" where you can be "slightly evil" "somewhat evil" or "really evil"
theres Evil and there Not Evil
As such, the idea of a Lesser Evil is a flawed concept.

I... sort of see what you're saying.

There's no difference in quality of evil. Something is evil or not. But that doesn't explain why there can't be quantities of evil.

Water is water, and there's no form of water that's less so than another. However, you can have large and small amounts of water. Something can be dry, damp, or soaking wet. Etc.

that is fairly correct, but Quantity and Degree are not synonims.
Other than that, you've pretty much got it.

Well, obviously you can't have a physical quantity of a concept at any rate.

Tzeench would disagree...
in the warp, anything is possible, but anyway, back to the original topic
Do YOU think the chaos gods are evil? Why/Why not?

I think being made out of concepts, they sort of break the molds of what can be good and what can be evil.

They're concepts taken to such an extreme that it's evil, but it's not as though they could possibly be anything else. I'd be inclined to say the Chaos Gods are evil in the sense that murder or rape is evil, but not in the sense that a murderer or rapist is evil. They're just a reflection of choices.

A very interesting interpretation...
One of the ones that makes more sense, as opposed to "I R witchHunter, Everyone Not Me Is Evil"

Orkeosaurus wrote:I think being made out of concepts, they sort of break the molds of what can be good and what can be evil.

They're concepts taken to such an extreme that it's evil, but it's not as though they could possibly be anything else. I'd be inclined to say the Chaos Gods are evil in the sense that murder or rape is evil, but not in the sense that a murderer or rapist is evil. They're just a reflection of choices.

This is pretty much what i was trying to express, just a lot more elequently. They are'nt evil because they choose to be or want to be. But they are made up of evil, or emotions and actions taken to evil extremes I should say. ie. I like hugging puppies, something that's not usually evil, but i could take it to an evil extreme. By hugging them so much i dont let them eat, or over hugging the puppy till it's ribs are crushed. That's some extreme puppy hugging lol. BTW which chaos god would get dominion over someone like this? Slaanesh?

Khorne, actually.

His servants have other favorites.

was going to say Slaanesh untill i saw that pic... brilliant...

@Bascilica: I understand what you are saying, but what proof or logical evidence is there that there is simply a thin line seperating the 'goodies' and the 'baddies'?
Some one who punches some one else is just as bad as some one who promotes/partakes/encourages/delves in genocide?

Wouldn't it act more like a 'PH' scale? (Alkalines being 'good' and Acid being 'bad') Why do you think there are no such levels?

BTW, it certainly sounds interesting. (Was it called the Lesser Evil or the Last Wish?)

yeah I suppose Slaanesh would do something much much much worse than hugging....

Mabye not, but I don't think a hug could get ANY more discomforting/unnerving.

@ Emporers Faithful
its a book called The Last Wish by Andrezj Sapkowski.
its is a book of linked short stories following a charachter called Geralt. One of those short stories is called The Lesser Evil.
Theres also a computer game based on it, and there are loads of books still being translated into english from taht seris.
And i never said anything about goodies & badies, haha.
I dunno, ever tried hugging a really fat, smelly thing with its intestines hanging out?

Yep. Oh wait...my friends intestines weren't hanging out at the time... oh Snap! (end bad joke)

Haha, Gotta love bad jokes

Ah crud. Seems the basis of my idea has already been hashed in part here. Good thing thought that I did not think of anything truly original, seems like i was not the only one to realize that the Imperium was a source of Chaos

Hey, if you have the individuality to come up with an idea for yourself, then your deffinitly on the right track. Whether or not other people have come up with it, out of your knowledge, is only slightly relevant.


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PS: welcome to dakka.

Just a note here, The Black Templars symbol is very close to the Crusaders symbol, which puts me thinking that i dont see how the Space Marines are any better than Chaos at all...

The Chaos Gods represent our bad urges and seek to consume or destroy us, sooo...

I vote bad. Very, very bad. Which is why we should purge them with fire. ^ ^

well, mainly all 40k background is based on the fact that everyone is bad and evil. The Imperium itself and the Craftworlds are evil.... as Chaos.

All of them makes something awful to some others, being sacrifices, demonic mutations, massive killing. There's no difference... BUT there is something that denotes a good thing from a bad one.

In all their random hatred, xenofoby and such, the Imperium has not at least deamons who would devour life and transform planets in wastelands such Chaos has. Chaos changes bodies throught spells and horrible demonic mutations.... are they different from other things such as the Imperial Servitors, Techmarines and such ? Yes.

Chaos taints the souls of the ones that follow it, you are damned, you have a God that will use and kill you with no second thoughts and will also decieve. It will transform your body in something non human.

I play SM and starting CSM but sincerely I know that both of the factions are BAD.... CSMs are more bad due to the daemons thing.

Truthfully everyrace in the galaxy is evil. Look at it the imperium is more akin to facism as well as the tau. The eldar are so high on themselves they feel no race compares to their knowledge. The orks just like to kill(WHICH IS AWSOME), chaos is well chaos and just delves into their pleasures...I can go on and on and on but really their is NO GOOD in the universe of warhammer just war.

I picture conversations like this as being exactly how chaos cultists recruit Imperial citizens.

They're only as bad as every other race or empire.

From looking at the whole situation. The emperor is good, The Imperium.... very very bad. Nurgle is good, in a very strange way (He seems to be the only entity that has compassion and happiness). To serve Nurgle you just have to get over the whole rotting and disease thing. He champions those who are in despair and brings hope to them in the form of defiance. The other Chaos Gods are, at least as I see it, very evil. But the Chaos Gods cannot help what they are, they are the mind stuff of mortals. So the Chaos Gods are only as evil as the mortals that feed them.

The chaos gods may cause evil: death, pain.. But the chaos gods themselves are more like forces of (un)nature than anything with control of itself. The do have minds but they don't think they way that we would. I imagine (as there is a lot of contradicting information on this) that they don't have free will and are more likely to have control over themselves apart from that they don't learn so any ideas that they don't start with like peace just don't make sense to them. This keeps them doing the same thing for 1000000... of years owever uneffective they are.

I'm sure that if slaanesh could learn it would protect the humans in exchange for them doing pleasurable experiences. I say this because we know that the aim of all the chaos gods is to gain enough power to dominate the other 3 and that they do this by mortals feeling their emotions

The Chaos Gods in and of themselves are neutral, they don't really care about anything. But from the perspective of the mortal races who live on the whims of these gods, they are evil masters, toying with their fates and demanding sacrifice so they can become all the more powerful.

As far as the chaos "taint" in peoples souls goes, How it any difference from a middle aged, working class, money earning racist? Is it at all different from the Xenophobia of the Imperium and Eldar?

Playing with the lives of mortals for your own enjoyment equals evil my friend.

Theres a reason CSM are called slaves to darkness.

The emporer betrayed a traitor marines Primarch and now he yells "Rejoice in the coming oblivion!" Because any step on the eightfold path is a step torwards oblivion.

But at least you won't be bored.