Because the last one was locked because apparently my opinion is now regarded as inflammatory by some people, I will try and make amends by starting it from scratch.

The RaW says that a Unit without the Ability to outflank or Deep Strike may arrive from reserves via an Outflanking or Deep Striking Transport.

In practice, how do you play it? I play it that they may. My reasoning is being that if you do not, Drop Pods have no use.

Since it has come up often I am (re)reading the rules a few times. . . .

I see only an allowance for Dedicated transports to bring squads with them.

That said, I thought only IC's invoked the * in the USR section.

What did I miss?

kirsanth wrote:Since it has come up often I am (re)reading the rules a few times. . . .

I see only an allowance for Dedicated transports to bring squads with them.

That said, I thought only IC's invoked the * in the USR section.

What did I miss?

I am saying that a non dedicated transport may have any unit embarked on it in reserve. If the transport declares it is arriving via Deep Strike or Outflank, the unit inside may go with it. Dedicated Transports have no additional rules from Non-Dedicated except for what unit may start the game inside it. Thus, if one rules that you cannot Deep Strike or Outflank inside a Transport (Dedicated or not), then Drop Pods cease to have any sort of an effect, as no models with Deep Strike have access to Drop Pods.

However, this is a HWYPI thread, so please, Post your opinions and if you are of the "no" persuasion, I would be interested as to why.

Page 94, main rules
Outflank:
"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport. . ."

Deepstrike seems to allow for non-dedicated transports, however.

I really dont see what the rules debate is, the rules seem pretty clear to me. What is the debate?

I had missed that there was a debate about it. My local gaming shop plays that if the vehicle may deep strike or outflank then the unit inside may come along for the ride - that always seemed the entire point of deep striking or outflanking transport vehicles.

kirsanth wrote:Page 94, main rules
Outflank:
"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport. . ."

Deepstrike seems to allow for non-dedicated transports, however.

That's for units who have scout or infiltrate but also must buy a Transport (aka Pathfinders)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

broxus wrote:I really dont see what the rules debate is, the rules seem pretty clear to me. What is the debate?

I am not trying to stir up a debate, because there isn't one, I am just wondering how people play it and what justification people in the "No" camp give for the way they play it.

If it makes people feel better then the models inside the Vendetta are not actually deployed on the table. This is the reason they cant disembark the turn that the vehicle outflanks. I cant understand how anyone would say you cant outflank your squad inside a vendetta, isnt that the point of it?

broxus wrote:If it makes people feel better then the models inside the Vendetta are not actually deployed on the table. This is the reason they cant disembark the turn that the vehicle outflanks. I cant understand how anyone would say you cant outflank your squad inside a vendetta, isnt that the point of it?

What's this? I have never heard of someone saying they cannot disembark after outflanking (so long as it moves Cruising or Combat speed). Do you mean the Scout move? Because you cannot disembark in the scout move because to disembark you must have begun your movement phase inside a vehicle and the scout move is not a movement phase.

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Page 94, main rules
Outflank:
"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport. . ."

Deepstrike seems to allow for non-dedicated transports, however.

That's for units who have scout or infiltrate but also must buy a Transport (aka Pathfinders)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

broxus wrote:I really dont see what the rules debate is, the rules seem pretty clear to me. What is the debate?

I am not trying to stir up a debate, because there isn't one, I am just wondering how people play it and what justification people in the "No" camp give for the way they play it.

First, I voted No, but only because I believe that the Vendetta question is wrong. Gwar combined them into 1 choice, which I believe is wrong, but it's his poll. So for the record, Drop Pods, yes. Vendettas, NO.


1. Really? You are sure thats what that rule is for? Where did you get this info? Are you seriously arguing intent here? Again I ask, where is Gwar, and who are you?

2. The rules are pretty clear. They tell you exactly what can use the Outflank rules. These being, units/models with the Scout or Infiltrate special rule. If they have one of these rules and also a dedicated transport, then the ability to outflank is conferred over to the Transport. Period, end, fin.

Where in any of that, does it list a Fast attack choice with Scout, being able to confer that ability on a unit of IG Vets without either Infiltrate or Scout? The rule set is permissive. It tells you exactly WHO can outflank. Vets riding in a Vendetta are not on that list, unless you can give them the scout or infiltrate ability.


Clay

Scout is not lost when a unit embarks a Valkryie, so the vehicle retains it.

When the vehicle attempts to outflank, nothing states that you cannot outflank if you are carrying a unit without outflank. The vehicle has outflank, therefore you have permission to outflank the vehicle.

The Vets are NOT outflanking, they are in a vehicle that is.

The vets are not outflanking? Really? So they aren't coming in on the side table edge then? In my experience, that's exactly what they are doing. Is there a rule that backs up your stance? I am not 100 percent convinced I'm right, I just need someone to start quoting some rules that counter the ones Ive given.

So far, that hasn't happened.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Page 94, main rules
Outflank:
"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport. . ."

Deepstrike seems to allow for non-dedicated transports, however.

That's for units who have scout or infiltrate but also must buy a Transport (aka Pathfinders)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

broxus wrote:I really dont see what the rules debate is, the rules seem pretty clear to me. What is the debate?

I am not trying to stir up a debate, because there isn't one, I am just wondering how people play it and what justification people in the "No" camp give for the way they play it.

First, I voted No, but only because I believe that the Vendetta question is wrong. Gwar combined them into 1 choice, which I believe is wrong, but it's his poll. So for the record, Drop Pods, yes. Vendettas, NO.


1. Really? You are sure thats what that rule is for? Where did you get this info? Are you seriously arguing intent here? Again I ask, where is Gwar, and who are you?

2. The rules are pretty clear. They tell you exactly what can use the Outflank rules. These being, units/models with the Scout or Infiltrate special rule. If they have one of these rules and also a dedicated transport, then the ability to outflank is conferred over to the Transport. Period, end, fin.

Where in any of that, does it list a Fast attack choice with Scout, being able to confer that ability on a unit of IG Vets without either Infiltrate or Scout? The rule set is permissive. It tells you exactly WHO can outflank. Vets riding in a Vendetta are not on that list, unless you can give them the scout or infiltrate ability.


Clay

Can you please list any source, any organized tournment, any FAQ, or anything at all that agrees with your point of view? I know if you went to any tournment and said this they would tell you can outflank people in Vendetta's.

P.S. My name is John who are you since you wanted to know, nice to meet you.

Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

broxus wrote:If it makes people feel better then the models inside the Vendetta are not actually deployed on the table. This is the reason they cant disembark the turn that the vehicle outflanks. I cant understand how anyone would say you cant outflank your squad inside a vendetta, isnt that the point of it?

What's this? I have never heard of someone saying they cannot disembark after outflanking (so long as it moves Cruising or Combat speed). Do you mean the Scout move? Because you cannot disembark in the scout move because to disembark you must have begun your movement phase inside a vehicle and the scout move is not a movement phase.

Gwar,

Im moving between FOB's in Iraq right now and dont have my rules book. Im pretty sure that you cant have your guys come out and shoot the turn they outflank in a vendetta. It may be posted in the FAQ's but I know I read it. If this isnt the case I will be a VERY happy man because my melta vets can get out and smoke some tanks also.

Sorry you missed the joke. That was directed at Gwar. Since he is usually the one arguing RAW vs RAI. However, in this instance, i have quoted the rules on who is allowed to Outflank, and noone has given me a rules quote to the contrary.


The rulebook agrees with my interpretation. The part where it tells you exactly who can Outflank. That would be on page 94 in the small rulebook, not sure of the page in the big book, but its right after the deployment section after the missions.

That is the point of the thread, how do different people play it, does it mean its right? Nope. Again, convince me I'm wrong. Ive cited the rule in the book that backs up my claim, where can you counter it? If you do, then I will gladly change my stance.


Clay

Im moving between FOB's in Iraq right now and dont have my rules book. Im pretty sure that you cant have your guys come out and shoot the turn they outflank in a vendetta. It may be posted in the FAQ's but I know I read it. If this isnt the case I will be a VERY happy man because my melta vets can get out and smoke some tanks also.

Ah, no worries. But no, nothing prevents them firing. What they cannot do is disembark in the scout move. A Valk/Vendetta can outflank, move 12", have the vets disembark and then fire (counting as moving).

@Primarch: Why yes for Pods and no for Valks?

Your vets can definitely drop out the vehicle: moving on from Outflank is, like all standard reserves, a "normal" move - and you follow normal rules for moving vehicles meaning you CAN dismembark and shoot when you Outflank (assuming you don't go over 12", even then you can use the special Vendetta rules); There is NO FAQ anywhere that states the contrary.

Clay - The Vets inside the vehicle are NOT, strictly, outflanking: they have not rolled a dice to determine table edge, and have not walked on. The vehicle they are inside of has done this, they have not.

Primarch wrote:Sorry you missed the joke. That was directed at Gwar. Since he is usually the one arguing RAW vs RAI. However, in this instance, i have quoted the rules on who is allowed to Outflank, and noone has given me a rules quote to the contrary.

And as I have said, the same rules you quote can be applied to say that Deep Striking Tactical Squads cannot happen. As we know this is not the case, the RaW allows for models who do not have Deep Strike/Outflank to do so in a transport vehicle.

Gwar! wrote:

Im moving between FOB's in Iraq right now and dont have my rules book. Im pretty sure that you cant have your guys come out and shoot the turn they outflank in a vendetta. It may be posted in the FAQ's but I know I read it. If this isnt the case I will be a VERY happy man because my melta vets can get out and smoke some tanks also.

Ah, no worries. But no, nothing prevents them firing. What they cannot do is disembark in the scout move. A Valk/Vendetta can outflank, move 12", have the vets disembark and then fire (counting as moving).

@Primarch: Why yes for Pods and no for Valks?

Where did I get this idea in my head then I wonder. Can they disembark after the vehicle Deep Strikes?

v/r
JB

Yup, they can disembark after a Deep Strike too, but may not move any further that turn.

Don't worry, I do that too, sometimes, not often... OK never, I am a Shining God among Men! (Joking, or not... maybe).

The reason I believe the Drop Pods, is I believe that the intent of the writers was for you to be able to Drop Pod in the dedicated transport purchased by your Marine Squad.


However, the Vendetta is NOTHING like a Drop Pod. It has several ways to deploy, and can carry other units, with the special rules mentioned, that are required to Outflank. Can't a Vet squad be given one of these abilities via a special Character or something?

There are other units that a Vendetta can carry that can outflank, or, if not, then when carrying units without these rules, the Vendetta can deploy normally, and can Outflank by itself. Can the Drop Pod do any of that? Can you walk the Drop Pod onto the board? Can you start with it on the board?

I still don't see a rule quote that tells me I'm wrong. Believe me guys, if the facts are proven and I'm wrong, I will admit it, and apologize, but for now, I just can't see it. By the RAW, there is a specific list of allowances for Outflank. Follow those and let me know where my reasoning has gone wrong.


Clay

Gwar! wrote:Yup, they can disembark after a Deep Strike too, but may not move any further that turn.

Don't worry, I do that too, sometimes, not often... OK never, I am a Shining God among Men! (Joking, or not... maybe).

Yea but you have a rulebook close to fall back on mine is about 200km through lots of people with guns and IED's. It makes it more challanging to check things before I post. I know I got to re-read that portion again because thats a huge shift in my tactics for sure.

broxus wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yup, they can disembark after a Deep Strike too, but may not move any further that turn.

Don't worry, I do that too, sometimes, not often... OK never, I am a Shining God among Men! (Joking, or not... maybe).

Yea but you have a rulebook close to fall back on mine is about 200km through lots of people with guns and IED's. It makes it more challanging to check things before I post. I know I got to re-read that portion again because thats a huge shift in my tactics for sure.

No Worries mate, always glad to help


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Primarch wrote:I still don't see a rule quote that tells me I'm wrong.

nosferatu1001 already pointed that out.

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Page 94, main rules
Outflank:
"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport. . ."

Deepstrike seems to allow for non-dedicated transports, however.

That's for units who have scout or infiltrate but also must buy a Transport (aka Pathfinders)

That is the part I miss. . . I do not see any other allowance for them to use it. I see (even in the USR section) allowances for dedicated transports - not transports in general. Infiltrate cannot be used with transports, and Scout also says "dedicated transports".

Held in reserve, certainly, but only Deepstrike mentions (non-dedicated) transports.

And as I said, Dedicated and Non Dedicated transports follow all the same rules except one (which is who can start in it at the start of the game).

Gwar! wrote:And as I said, Dedicated and Non Dedicated transports follow all the same rules except one (which is who can start in it at the start of the game).

Yea. . . I read that.
My question is why, in all situations where outflank is possible, specify dedicated transports - if any transport will do?

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And as I said, Dedicated and Non Dedicated transports follow all the same rules except one (which is who can start in it at the start of the game).

Yea. . . I read that.
My question is why, in all situations where outflank is possible, specify dedicated transports - if any transport will do?

Because it is to allow units able to outflank who have to buy dedicated transports that cannot outflank to be able to use them to outflank.

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And as I said, Dedicated and Non Dedicated transports follow all the same rules except one (which is who can start in it at the start of the game).

Yea. . . I read that.
My question is why, in all situations where outflank is possible, specify dedicated transports - if any transport will do?

Because it is to allow units able to outflank who have to buy dedicated transports that cannot outflank to be able to use them to outflank.

I re-read his post several times, I see no rule pointing out that I am wrong. I see where he has drawn a conclusion without a rule backing him up.


Your last post here is just funny to me. How in the world do you know this to be a fact? What rule backs up your opinion here? You aren't quoting RAW, you are guessing at best. I thought you were the RAW guy here. Give me some rule quotes please.


Clay

Primarch wrote:I re-read his post several times, I see no rule pointing out that I am wrong. I see where he has drawn a conclusion without a rule backing him up.


Your last post here is just funny to me. How in the world do you know this to be a fact? What rule backs up your opinion here? You aren't quoting RAW, you are guessing at best. I thought you were the RAW guy here. Give me some rule quotes please.

Where is your rules quote saying that models arriving in an outflanking transport are outflanking? (They aren't btw, which is why they can go with the Transport which is.)

Sigh, really?


The part where the rules tell you EXACTLY who can Outflank. That's not good enough for you? Great, since following the rules requirements for Outflanking isnt a requirement to outflank, I assume the same for Deepstrike and all the other rules. My Orks just got a whole lot more diverse. Truks Outflanking, Boyz Deepstriking, sweet!!!

There is a reason the rule set is permissive Gwar, it tells you what you can do. I would love for the game to work your way, but it just doesnt.


Clay

Primarch wrote:The part where the rules tell you EXACTLY who can Outflank.

Yes, Fantastic. Where does it say that the unit inside is also outflanking? It doesn't, because they are not. The Transport is outflanking, the Unit is just there fore the ride. The Unit does not roll to see what side it arrives, the Transport does.

Again, THE UNIT INSIDE DOES NOT OUTFLANK, THE TRANSPORT DOES.

Now, if you can point out a rule that says I am wrong, please do so.

Primarch - the rules tell you which units can outflank - and the vehcile is the one Outflanking, NOT the transported unit.

Are the transported unit rolling to see which side they come on? No, the vehicle is. Are the unit inside moving on from the edge? No, the vehicle CARRYING them is.

Your Ork Boyz can indeed deepstrike, as long as they do so inside a vehicle that is deepstriking.

Hmmm, interesting point. So basically a unit that is using the Outflank move, meaning they are coming into play on a short table edge, via the definition of an Outflank, aren't?


Thats what you are going with? The fact that a unit that is doing everything the rules for Outflank allow you to do, all without following the requirements doesn't bother you at all? Is the unit NOT coming on the side edge of the table?

The unit is in fact Outflanking, this according to the definition of an Outflank in the rulebook.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Primarch - the rules tell you which units can outflank - and the vehcile is the one Outflanking, NOT the transported unit.

Are the transported unit rolling to see which side they come on? No, the vehicle is. Are the unit inside moving on from the edge? No, the vehicle CARRYING them is.

Your Ork Boyz can indeed deepstrike, as long as they do so inside a vehicle that is deepstriking.

So the fact that the rules for Outflank specifically tell you about dedicated transports and bringing them along doesn't convince you that what you are suggesting is insane? The unit is in fact outflanking. If it wasn't, then it wouldnt be coming on the side table edge, it would be coming on the rear edge like everyone else.


Clay

So, why can Units who do not have the Deep Strike rule Deep Strike in a Deep Striking Transport?

Clay - you're assuming reciprocity here, and applying it thinking it supports your argument.

The reason a unit with Scout can Outflank (or indeed scout) in their ded. vehicle is that otherwise the vehicle would not have the rule - in all cases the VEHICLE is used to determine what the combined unit can do. This is a unit inside the vehicle giving the vehicle a rule it would not otherwise have - which is not the same as a unit inside the vehicle requiring the rule. Not at all - your argument is insane if you think it is: if you think they are the same then moving on the board is also the same as moving on.

No, the unit inside the vehicle is NOT following the definition of outflanking: did they roll for which side? No they did not. The vehicle did. Did they move on using THEIR movement? NO the vehicle did.

You cannot take parts of the rule out of context and pretend it is fulfilling them. That is a spurious argument. You also still have yet to answer Drop Pods - how can the unit, without DS, deepstrike in with the droppod? Answer: the POD is DS, not the unit.

Gwar, listen to yourself. You have chastised others on this board for using a different codex to try and prove their point, now you are doing it? The Drop Pod is a completely seperate argument, but sure, I will indulge you.


A lot of times, RAI vs RAW arguments for come down to knowing the intent of the rule. In most cases, you don't really know the intent, you are guessing(when I say you here, I mean you in general). There are those rare times, when something is so stupidly obvious, that everyone can tell what the intent was.

Drop Pods are a perfect example. Marines can do a Drop Pod Assault, they can buy Drop pods, and those Pods can carry 12 models. If the Drop Pod isnt allowed to carry models when it deep strikes, when whats the point of the model, or the rules for said model? There aren't any. It's not like you can choose to roll onto your rear table edge with your drop pod. You MUST Deep Strike. It's the only way to get the model onto the board.

Vendettas, are NOTHING like this. They can arrive in 3 ways at least, might be missing one, but I don't think so. They can start on the table, they can arrive via Outflank, or the can move on the friendly rear table edge as reserves, or on the first turn in the Dawn of War mission.

They can choose to carry models that have Scout/Infiltrate rules, so they can Outflank, they can Outflank empty, they can deploy normally with models that have scout/infiltrate or not, it doesn't apply here. They can also carry models with or without those rules and move onto the friendly rear table edge via reserves or the above mention of Dawn of War.

The differences are pretty obvious. I like to use RAW when the Intent is not BLATANTLY obvious. The old Terminators not having Terminator Armor being a good example. The Drop Pod being another good example.

The Vendetta however, is not nearly so clear. It gives you quite a few options. The rules for Outflank are also pretty clear. Is it impossible for the Vendetta to carry any models if it Outflanks? The answer is no. If it were impossible, then I'd have to side with you guys on this one.

I really wish you would leave the Drop Pod issue out of this, as it does not apply in any way to the discussion at hand. You know good and well that you cannot use rules in one Codex, to quantify rules in another. Sure you can try and glean intent, but I've heard you shout that position down multiple times.



Clay

No, I am not using another codex, I am using an example of the same Rulebook rule from another codex.

So then, can Vets Deep Strike inside a Valkyrie? Same codex, so I am sure you will be happy.

You seem to be hung up on the fact that the vehicle is doing something the unit cannot.

Can the unit move 24"? So you won't let Valkyries move 24" with models inside then?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Clay - you're assuming reciprocity here, and applying it thinking it supports your argument.

The reason a unit with Scout can Outflank (or indeed scout) in their ded. vehicle is that otherwise the vehicle would not have the rule - in all cases the VEHICLE is used to determine what the combined unit can do. This is a unit inside the vehicle giving the vehicle a rule it would not otherwise have - which is not the same as a unit inside the vehicle requiring the rule. Not at all - your argument is insane if you think it is: if you think they are the same then moving on the board is also the same as moving on.

No, the unit inside the vehicle is NOT following the definition of outflanking: did they roll for which side? No they did not. The vehicle did. Did they move on using THEIR movement? NO the vehicle did.

You cannot take parts of the rule out of context and pretend it is fulfilling them. That is a spurious argument. You also still have yet to answer Drop Pods - how can the unit, without DS, deepstrike in with the droppod? Answer: the POD is DS, not the unit.

So when you finish moving your Vendetta, no squad can get out and shoot right? Because no squad of Vets moved onto the table edge with the Vendetta? They are in fact performing an outflank move. The fact that they come in with one dice roll doesnt mean the unit inside is doing something the vehicle isnt. If I put some Space marine Devs in a Land Raider, then roll 1 dice for that whole reserve choice, can I move the Land Raider onto the table, disembark, and shoot my heavy weapons? No, of course I cant, because the MODELS in the Land Raider count as MOVING because the Vehicle did.


Clay

Primarch wrote:So when you finish moving your Vendetta, no squad can get out and shoot right? Because no squad of Vets moved onto the table edge with the Vendetta? They are in fact performing an outflank move. The fact that they come in with one dice roll doesnt mean the unit inside is doing something the vehicle isnt. If I put some Space marine Devs in a Land Raider, then roll 1 dice for that whole reserve choice, can I move the Land Raider onto the table, disembark, and shoot my heavy weapons? No, of course I cant, because the MODELS in the Land Raider count as MOVING because the Vehicle did.

Errrm... What?

You are making no sense.

Gwar! wrote:No, I am not using another codex, I am using an example of the same Rulebook rule from another codex.

So then, can Vets Deep Strike inside a Valkyrie? Same codex, so I am sure you will be happy.

What page is the Drop Pod assault rule on in the main rulebook again? What page in the rulebook tells you who can buy and ride in a Drop Pod? Where are these rules?



For number 2, finally a real argument. Since deepstriking doesnt require Infiltrate or Scout, and the deepstriking rules specifically mention disembarking from a deep striking transport. I say yes, they can, certainly. Thats my opinion, much like everything else I have stated, and might be flawed. But from my quick read through, I don't see why not. The rules for Deep Strike aren't as linear as the rules for Outflank.



Clay

Primarch wrote:What page is the Drop Pod assault rule on in the main rulebook again? What page in the rulebook tells you who can buy and ride in a Drop Pod? Where are these rules?

What does Drop Pod Assault have to do with anything? I am talking about Deep Strike, which is in the Rulebook...

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:So when you finish moving your Vendetta, no squad can get out and shoot right? Because no squad of Vets moved onto the table edge with the Vendetta? They are in fact performing an outflank move. The fact that they come in with one dice roll doesnt mean the unit inside is doing something the vehicle isnt. If I put some Space marine Devs in a Land Raider, then roll 1 dice for that whole reserve choice, can I move the Land Raider onto the table, disembark, and shoot my heavy weapons? No, of course I cant, because the MODELS in the Land Raider count as MOVING because the Vehicle did.

Errrm... What?

You are making no sense.

Of course I'm not making sense. Because you can't move and fire your heavy weapons. But since the guys inside the vehicle apparently aren't apparently moving(per your argument), then they should be good to go right? Of course not, I was making a silly example, to point out that indeed a vehicle moving does impact the unit inside. Might not have been the best example, but it's what I was shooting for.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:What page is the Drop Pod assault rule on in the main rulebook again? What page in the rulebook tells you who can buy and ride in a Drop Pod? Where are these rules?

What does Drop Pod Assault have to do with anything? I am talking about Deep Strike, which is in the Rulebook...

Sorry, I must have been thinking back to the multiple posts where you try and compare a Drop Pod to a Vendetta.



Clay

Did the squad move onto the table using their movement? If they did not do so then they, tehmselves, have not used the Outflank rule.

You seem to think that the unit inside the vehicle has to have the same rules - yet a fast skimmer vehicle can move 24", does this mean it cannot do so if there is a unit inside the vehicle which has less than 24" movement?

You're also wrong in that the Outflank rules do not say anything about denying the rule if the combined reserve "group" (note, not unit) does not have the rule: so as tehe Valk has Scout it may Outflank, and the presence of a unit inside the transport does NOT deny the vehicle this abiltiy.

Also, the rules for disembarking say the unit counts as moving, so your ranting has been somewhat of a funny aside. It doesn't matter if the land raider moved, they count as moving because of the Disembarking rule.

Gwar! wrote:Also, the rules for disembarking say the unit counts as moving, so your ranting has been somewhat of a funny aside. It doesn't matter if the land raider moved, they count as moving because of the Disembarking rule.

Fine use a Rhino and the top hatch in the example. The vehicle is moving, and the troops count as moving for firing their weapons. They aren't immune to what the vehicle is doing.


Clay

Primarch wrote:
For number 2, finally a real argument. Since deepstriking doesnt require Infiltrate or Scout.....

It DOES however, require a unit to have the DS rule.

and the deepstriking rules specifically mention disembarking from a deep striking transport.

But they don't say "A unit without DS may still deploy via a transport using DS rules.", which is what you require for outflank. If one were to use your criteria, then if any unit embarked on a transport were to attempt an unconventional deployment method, both must have the ability to do so, whether it's outflank, Deepstrike, or anything else. You can't require specificity in one rule and not in the other.

The fact is, there is a set of rules which let you deploy from reserves inside a non-dedicated transport, and no restrictions on what method that transport may use to enter the board, providing it has the special rules to do so.

I guess where you guys play, the rule set is not permissive. So basically, if the book doesn't say you can't do it, then its all legal? Sweet, I'm coming there with my Orks in land raiders.


Thats stupid, but its a slippery slope. The rules for Outflank tell you who can outflank. You have yet to quote a rule that says otherwise. The units that may Outflank are ones that have the Scout or infiltrate special rule. Their dedicated transport is included.

Where does it say the reverse is also true? Ive posted this time and time again, and it appears we will have to agree to disagree, but the rules say what they say. You are reading parts into them that are not there.


Clay

Primarch wrote:You are reading parts into them that are not there.

Actually, that is what you are doing. You have yet to show where it says the unit itself is outflanking.

Lordhat wrote:

Primarch wrote:
For number 2, finally a real argument. Since deepstriking doesnt require Infiltrate or Scout.....

It DOES however, require a unit to have the DS rule.

and the deepstriking rules specifically mention disembarking from a deep striking transport.

But they don't say "A unit without DS may still deploy via a transport using DS rules.", which is what you require for outflank. If one were to use your criteria, then if any unit embarked on a transport were to attempt an unconventional deployment method, both must have the ability to do so, whether it's outflank, Deepstrike, or anything else. You can't require specificity in one rule and not in the other.

The fact is, there is a set of rules which let you deploy from reserves inside a non-dedicated transport, and no restrictions on what method that transport may use to enter the board, providing it has the special rules to do so.

Depends on how deep you want to go with this. I could argue that the Marines ability to take a Transport that CAN ONLY Deepstrike is itself a rule that allows them to deep strike. The RAI is pretty clear. Why is no one reading the difference in these 2 options?

The Pod is completely(damn near) useless if it can't carry troops onto the board using deep strike. The Vendetta can deploy in all kinds of ways, and has a certain option, if criteria are met, that allows it to Outflank.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:You are reading parts into them that are not there.

Actually, that is what you are doing. You have yet to show where it says the unit itself is outflanking.

So the circle begins. Like I said, we have to agree to disagree. You are going to argue that your interpretation is RAW, which is wrong on many levels. You aren't quoting a rule at all. You are ignoring the rule I am quoting. You have decided to interpret the rule the way you want to, and no amount of actual rules will interfere with that. sigh.


Anyway, good discussion all, but pointless in the end.


Clay

Clay

No, the rules ARE permissive: the rule states that the Vendetta can outflank. Nowhere does it state "and only if the unit on board can outflank as well"

So you must find something that prohibits a unit from carrying a unit without Outflank from Outflanking, when the vehicle itself can Outflank.

Primarch wrote:Fine use a Rhino and the top hatch in the example. The vehicle is moving, and the troops count as moving for firing their weapons. They aren't immune to what the vehicle is doing.

In that case it's because the rules for Fire Points specifically state that they count them as moving. So still not a good example...

Ok, how about this. You say the unit inside the Vendetta is in fact NOT Outflanking.


I give you the arriving from reserves rules......


When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge(unless it is deep striking or outflanking).


That is a direct quote from the rulebook. So, according to this, if you put that Vendetta, and the unit of IG Vets into reserves to do an Outflank move, then by definition when they move onto the table, they MUST deploy from the friendly rear edge, UNLESS they are Outflanking. Since the IG Vets are certainly not deploying from the rear friendly table edge, then how are they meeting this requirement, and still not Outflanking?



Clay

So you're arguing intent, and not rules at all.

You agree that Drop Pods can carry people when they deep strike, even though their passengers cannot Deep Strike. Nowhere does it say that Deep Striking transports can carry models who do not deep strike.

Then you argue that Transports who can Outflank cannot outflank when they carry people who can't outflank, because it doesn't say they can.

You've fallen completely into the RaI end of the universe now, and aren't using any rules to back up your argument other than 'I want this one to be different'.

Penalizing the Valk/Vend because it has a choice is silly, by the way. What about an outflank pod? If there was an outflank pod in the game would you let valks/vends outflank?

insaniak wrote:

Primarch wrote:Fine use a Rhino and the top hatch in the example. The vehicle is moving, and the troops count as moving for firing their weapons. They aren't immune to what the vehicle is doing.

In that case it's because the rules for Fire Points specifically state that they count them as moving. So still not a good example...

Firing from a firepoint means your infantry inside count as moving? Thats news to me.....


Clay

Primarch wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Primarch wrote:Fine use a Rhino and the top hatch in the example. The vehicle is moving, and the troops count as moving for firing their weapons. They aren't immune to what the vehicle is doing.

In that case it's because the rules for Fire Points specifically state that they count them as moving. So still not a good example...

Firing from a firepoint means your infantry inside count as moving? Thats news to me.....


Clay

Combatting deliberate obtuseness with rules!

the rulebook wrote:Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves...

Hmm, look at that.

Note it says 'count as moving' because the unit obviously hasn't moved. It's in a transport, it's sitting still.

So when it outflanks in that vendetta, it's not moving in from the table edge because, like the example above suggests, it hasn't moved. It's sitting in a transport.

Orkestra wrote:So you're arguing intent, and not rules at all.

You agree that Drop Pods can carry people when they deep strike, even though their passengers cannot Deep Strike. Nowhere does it say that Deep Striking transports can carry models who do not deep strike.

Then you argue that Transports who can Outflank cannot outflank when they carry people who can't outflank, because it doesn't say they can.

You've fallen completely into the RaI end of the universe now, and aren't using any rules to back up your argument other than 'I want this one to be different'.

Penalizing the Valk/Vend because it has a choice is silly, by the way. What about an outflank pod? If there was an outflank pod in the game would you let valks/vends outflank?

Not at all. My stance is that the RAW should be used in all cases, where the RAI is unclear. In the area of a drop pod, its perfectly clear, the intent is that you can use your Drop Pod to deep strike. I also belive that the RAW says that you cannot stick IG Vets into a Vendetta and Outflank because the rules are clear, and there are other things you can do. The RAI is completely unknown, and in that case, I revert to RAW.

To be honest, I don't play IG, or against IG. I don't have some built up hatred for this move, it's never been pulled on me in a game. I just looked at it, and it wasn't as clear as some of you make it out to be.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkestra wrote:

Primarch wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Primarch wrote:Fine use a Rhino and the top hatch in the example. The vehicle is moving, and the troops count as moving for firing their weapons. They aren't immune to what the vehicle is doing.

In that case it's because the rules for Fire Points specifically state that they count them as moving. So still not a good example...

Firing from a firepoint means your infantry inside count as moving? Thats news to me.....


Clay

Combatting deliberate obtuseness with rules!

the rulebook wrote:Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves...

Hmm, look at that.

Note it says 'count as moving' because the unit obviously hasn't moved. It's in a transport, it's sitting still.

So when it outflanks in that vendetta, it's not moving in from the table edge because, like the example above suggests, it hasn't moved. It's sitting in a transport.

So basically you have nothing to combat the "Arriving From Reserves" rule? Does the IG Vet Squad riding inside the Outflanking Vendetta "count as moving on from their rear friendly table edge"? The main argument against has been that the IG Vets are NOT Outflanking, only the vehicle is. Citing the above rule, they are indeed outflanking if they aren't moving on their rear friendly table edge.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Primarch wrote:Fine use a Rhino and the top hatch in the example. The vehicle is moving, and the troops count as moving for firing their weapons. They aren't immune to what the vehicle is doing.

In that case it's because the rules for Fire Points specifically state that they count them as moving. So still not a good example...

Firing from a firepoint means your infantry inside count as moving? Thats news to me.....

Firing from a FP in a moving vehicle (which is what you were referring to, and hence what I was responding to) means the models inside count as moving.

Primarch wrote:Ok, how about this. You say the unit inside the Vendetta is in fact NOT Outflanking.


I give you the arriving from reserves rules......

When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge(unless it is deep striking or outflanking).

That is a direct quote from the rulebook. So, according to this, if you put that Vendetta, and the unit of IG Vets into reserves to do an Outflank move, then by definition when they move onto the table, they MUST deploy from the friendly rear edge, UNLESS they are Outflanking. Since the IG Vets are certainly not deploying from the rear friendly table edge, then how are they meeting this requirement, and still not Outflanking?
Clay

And what is the unit that is the subject of this sentence? THE TRANSPORT VEHICLE. It is the TRANSPORT vehicle that moves on, the unit inside the vehicle isnt moving by the Game Definition of "moving" (except for the purpose of firing, before your obtusiveness strikes again, as this is given a specific mention) as if they were movign they would be restricted to their own movement value.

As said; You seem to believe, incorrectly, that a tranpsort vehicle is bound by the rules of the unit inside. THe unit inside cannot constrain the vehicle, otherwise no transport vehicle could move over 6" when carrying troops. This is the position your "RAW" results in.

Oh wait, here it would be "obvious" so you would go with RAI. Good one.

The vets aren't arriving from the rear table edge - check.
The vets are outflanking? No. The vets are not outflanking.

The vets are deploying from their transport vehicle.

If I hold a transport vehicle with troops inside it in reserve, only the transport vehyicle comes in from reserve. The troops come on from their transport.

Primarch wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

Primarch wrote:
For number 2, finally a real argument. Since deepstriking doesnt require Infiltrate or Scout.....

It DOES however, require a unit to have the DS rule.

and the deepstriking rules specifically mention disembarking from a deep striking transport.

But they don't say "A unit without DS may still deploy via a transport using DS rules.", which is what you require for outflank. If one were to use your criteria, then if any unit embarked on a transport were to attempt an unconventional deployment method, both must have the ability to do so, whether it's outflank, Deepstrike, or anything else. You can't require specificity in one rule and not in the other.

The fact is, there is a set of rules which let you deploy from reserves inside a non-dedicated transport, and no restrictions on what method that transport may use to enter the board, providing it has the special rules to do so.

Depends on how deep you want to go with this. I could argue that the Marines ability to take a Transport that CAN ONLY Deepstrike is itself a rule that allows them to deep strike.

Snip

The Pod is completely(damn near) useless if it can't carry troops onto the board using deep strike. The Vendetta can deploy in all kinds of ways, and has a certain option, if criteria are met, that allows it to Outflank.
Clay

Let me quote the DA FAQ for Droppods:

Dark Angels FAQ wrote:Q. Can troops deploying from a Dark Angels
Drop Pod assault on the turn it lands? Unlike
the Space Marines and Black Templars codexes,
it does not state you cannot.
A. No the embarked troops can’t assault, as they
have deployed by deep strike that turn and
troops that deep strike can’t assault.

From this statement it is clear that the Dev's agree with you (as do I): it doesn't matter that the transport is the unit with the special rule, if a unit is inside when it deploys, that unit also counts as having deployed in said manner. But it also states that the devs disagree with you: Since the Marines riding inside the pod don't actually HAVE the DS rule they shouldn't be able to deploy from the pod in the first place. Since there is no rule specifically stating that Drop Pods confer Deepstrike to the units riding within, we have to assume that transports automatically confer their special deployment rules to transported units.

And yes the rules are permissive. With a permissive ruleset you are not allowed to use the 'doesn't say I can't' argument, but you are allowed to use the 'it says I can, until it says I can't' argument.


The rules permit units to be deployed inside non-dedicated transports while held in reserve.
The rules permit non-dedicated transports to deploy according to their special rules.
The rules permit units inside transports to enter play with the transport, even if it is using a special rule which the transported unit doesn't have (as shown above).
The rules do not restrict units from entering play via special deployment inside a transport, even if they normally couldn't do so, as long as the transport itself is entering play legally.

The RAI is pretty clear. Why is no one reading the difference in these 2 options?

This is a slippery slope. I agree that the RAI is clear in the case of the pods, but with the valkyrie, we can't be sure. It is a transport, it's non-dedicated, and the rules (including it's own mind you) do not prohibit it from using outflank while carrying a unit without the proper rules to do so on it's own. From all of this I conclude that the RAI is for Valks to deliver IG to the battlefield via any and all of it's own special rules.

Well, it seems that no one is convincing anyone else, and apparently I am alone in my stance. Such is life. Thanks for all the input guys.



Clay

nosferatu1001 wrote:As said; You seem to believe, incorrectly, that a tranpsort vehicle is bound by the rules of the unit inside.

To be fair, that is the position that the RAw puts us in. Or, more specifically, the transport isn't bound by the units rules so much as the unit is not excused from its normal rules by being in a transport.

The transport rules don't specifically say to ignore the embarked unit's normal mode of movement. Nor do they say that the unit is not actually in play, or considered for any other rules that would normally apply to them. To the contrary, in fact, the rules say that you count the unit as still being on the board, as they tell you to measure distances involving the unit to and from the transport in which they are embarked.


So, as far as RAW is concerned, while the transport may be able to move faster than the unit, since you are moving them both together the only option that breaks no rule is to move at the speed of the unit. Which, of course, would make transport vehicles next to useless and is obviously not the way the game is intended to be played.


The same applies to outflanking. The rules for reserves simply say that the transport and the unit arrive together. No mention of the unit being able to use the transport's rules, or of ignoring any rules that would normally apply to the unit. So it would seem that, by RAW, the transport would indeed have to come on normally, because the unit inside is forced by the 'Arriving from Reserves' rules to move on from the normal board edge regardless of what the transport they are in can do. The only allowance the rules make is for you to measure the unit's movement distance from the hull of the vehicle.

I rather strongly believe, though, that the intent is for the unit to benefit from any movement mode available to the transport. And that would extend to the ability to outflank.


Which was a rather long-winded way of replying to the ongoing RAW debate and mentioning that I voted 'A'...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lordhat wrote:The rules permit units to be deployed inside non-dedicated transports while held in reserve.

Actually, they don't. They mention in the section on preparing reserves that you have to declare if you are putting any units in transports... but there is no actual rule anywhere that allows you to do so.

It's fairly clear from the existence of the first rule though that the second should be implied...

A similar situation arises with Dark Eldar Raiders with Screaming Jets. They let the vehicle itself Deep Strike, though the passengers don't have Deep Strike ability.

Since the rules spell out conditions on the passengers when the vehicle Deep Strikes, the obvious conclusion is that the vehicle CAN Deep Strike with troops aboard.

The whole point of my bringing up the previous thread was to get the general consensus for how the gaming community at large plays this since some of us locals were having this very conversation and it seemed like the reasonable thing to do to go beyond our little circle of players.

I voted A by the way.

And lets not forget Land Speeder Storms, which can Deep Strike with Scouts inside

I voted A, with the unit in the transport also counting as having Outflanked/Deepstruck(sp?) with their transport.

Seems sensible.


On a semi-related note, is it pretty well agreed on that a unit with the Infiltrate ability and a Dedicated Transport can Outflank in their transport (but not use their special "infiltration" deployment ability, obviously)?

Orkeosaurus wrote:On a semi-related note, is it pretty well agreed on that a unit with the Infiltrate ability and a Dedicated Transport can Outflank in their transport (but not use their special "infiltration" deployment ability, obviously)?

Obviously It even says they can on page 94. In fact it says they MUST arrive Embarked on the transport if the transport Outflanks with them

Ah, good. I was planning to do that with my army.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Ah, good. I was planning to do that with my army.

Which Army is that btw? I cannot think of any such Units other than Pathfinders off the top of my head.

Well, I was planning to do it with Chaos Chosen, but now that you mention it I'm not sure if they can buy Rhinos.

Nope they cannot buy Rhinos

They can buy Chaos Rhinos

In that case my plan is doomed!

I understand Gwars! side now more than I posted earlier (work ft. . .loss?).

With a transport, the issue of disregarding URS is not related, as the USR is lost for IC's being part of a unit. Transports are not ICs. The idea of dedicated transports being the only ones mentioned, while potentialy damaging (I would think ti takes more reading but!) is unrelated simply because of transport rules. The unit is not on the table until it disembarks and to imply/infer that its rules take precidence over the tranport's rules would override rules like movement distance and terrain modifiers.

If needed or requested I can post/PM why I reason this as related - but give me a bit. I am not even sure this post makes sense - even though the arguement does.

As stated, I now agree valkyrie/vendetta can outflank while transporting a unit that does not have the rules allowing such maneuvers.

So just thought of something. By the same logic i could by 2-5 man scout squads put them each in a landraider and out flank them? Or buy Sicarius make a tac squad have scout and put them in a landraider to out flank?

zombie78 wrote:So just thought of something. By the same logic i could by 2-5 man scout squads put them each in a landraider and out flank them? Or buy Sicarius make a tac squad have scout and put them in a landraider to out flank?

This point is poorly thought out. Can the 2-5 man scout squad purchase a Landraider as a deadicated transport? No. So the next question, does the Landraider have the Outflank USR, again no. The rules are clear for the unit that had scout and purchased a deadicated transport. The rules for a vehicle that has outflank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE!
Remember, you’re playing to enjoy a
challenging battle with friends, where having
fun and keeping to the spirit of the game is
more important than winning at any cost.
Warhammer 40,000 is an involving game,
with many different races, weapons, and
endless possibilities. In a game of this size and
level of complexity there are bound to be
certain occasions where a particular situation
lies outside the rules as they are written.
Warhammer 40,000 players should feel free
to improvise where necessary, resolving such
situations in a friendly and mutually agreed
manner, and evolving the game far beyond
the published rules if they wish.

When you come across a situation in a battle
that is not covered fully by the rules, be
prepared to interpret a rule or come up with
a suitable house rule for yourselves.
When a situation of contention arises, players
should agree on a fair and reasonable
solution and get on with the game as quickly
as possible. The most common way of
resolving any disputes is for a player to roll a
D6 to see whose interpretation applies in that
instance. P.12


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why is everyone so quick to throw this out as a legitimate rule? RAW, RAI... Its spelled out in the RULEBOOK Not everything is covered and sometimes requires to you step out side the rules as written. ITS IN THE RULE BOOK!

zombie78 wrote:So just thought of something. By the same logic i could by 2-5 man scout squads put them each in a landraider and out flank them? Or buy Sicarius make a tac squad have scout and put them in a landraider to out flank?

first of all, by what same logic?

secondly, units with scout may ONLY confer it to DEDICATED-TRANSPORTS, neither of the units you listed can take a landraider as a dedicated transport. however if Sicarius chose to give a tactical squad infiltrate or scout and they had a rhino/razorback, then they would be able to outflank in it.

hyperviper6 wrote:Why is everyone so quick to throw this out as a legitimate rule? RAW, RAI... Its spelled out in the RULEBOOK Not everything is covered and sometimes requires to you step out side the rules as written. ITS IN THE RULE BOOK!

You'll find that most people are more than happy to consider TMIR when they're standing at the table. People fix on RAW in rules discussions because they're the only solid reference point that really exists.

You can house rule all you want in an actual game. But pointing out house rules won't help you to determine what the rules actually are.

insaniak wrote:

hyperviper6 wrote:Why is everyone so quick to throw this out as a legitimate rule? RAW, RAI... Its spelled out in the RULEBOOK Not everything is covered and sometimes requires to you step out side the rules as written. ITS IN THE RULE BOOK!

You'll find that most people are more than happy to consider TMIR when they're standing at the table. People fix on RAW in rules discussions because they're the only solid reference point that really exists.

You can house rule all you want in an actual game. But pointing out house rules won't help you to determine what the rules actually are.

And more significantly in my opinion, it doesn't matter what me and insaniak agree on as a good house rule when I go to my local gaming group. Insaniak's opinion carries no weight there at all.

Yes a scout squad nor a tac squad can buy a landraider as a DEDICATED TRANSPORT. So no it cant out flank. How can you have it both ways though. The non dedicated transport (valk) confurs it to the squad with out the rule

Valkyrie/vendetta do not "confer" any abilities. They use their own. Much like they use their own movement rules - despite having passengers.

Like Drop pods to not confer Deepstrike, or units in them could assault after DS in PlanetStrike.

Squads can confer some abilities to their dedicated transports, however this is rarely as useful as it sounds - as the squad must be transported to do so. This is exactly why it is listed like that, and why I was confused earlier. If the (dedicated) transports were not given Scout, embarked units cannot Scout/Outflank.

If the transport itself has the ablility to Scout/Outflank/Deepstrike then it can, even if it has passengers.

That is the crux of the issue.

I don't see where the rules cover it at ALL. They cover a unit with Scout and a Dedicated Transport. They don't address a Transport with Scout and a unit without Scout.

And I don't think Drop Pods are a suitable comparison. Drop Pods are: 1) in a different codex; 2) are a dedicated transports; 3) tell you that the unit inside MUST disembark when it lands.

You could take Vets with Infiltrate and put them in a Valkyrie and Outflank. Creed can give one unit Scout. It doesn't say what to do if the Vets don't have Infiltrate or Scout.

SM Scouts have Infiltrate and Scouts. LSS has Scout (iirc). I don't see how that's a comparison either.

The rules only address a unit with a dedicated transport. And it specifies a Dedicated Transport. So you can't put Chosen in a Chaos LR and Outflank.

There is no RAW answer.

dietrich wrote:I don't see where the rules cover it at ALL. They cover a unit with Scout and a Dedicated Transport. They don't address a Transport with Scout and a unit without Scout.

And I don't think Drop Pods are a suitable comparison. Drop Pods are: 1) in a different codex; 2) are a dedicated transports; 3) tell you that the unit inside MUST disembark when it lands.

You could take Vets with Infiltrate and put them in a Valkyrie and Outflank. Creed can give one unit Scout. It doesn't say what to do if the Vets don't have Infiltrate or Scout.

SM Scouts have Infiltrate and Scouts. LSS has Scout (iirc). I don't see how that's a comparison either.

The rules only address a unit with a dedicated transport. And it specifies a Dedicated Transport. So you can't put Chosen in a Chaos LR and Outflank.

There is no RAW answer.

Exactly, the rules don't cover this specific thing, so you default to the closest available, which is that the valkyrie has scout and so can outflank.

If a Valkyrie has no units inside it it can Outflank correct?

There is no rule which says that a Valkyrie that has units without scout in it cannot outflank.

Therefore, a Valkyrie with units in it that do not have scout can still outflank.

NOTE: This does not break the premise of a permissive rule set, permission has been given, and has not been taken away by other rules.

There is absolutely a RAW answer, which is that you may deploy a transport by a special deployment method that it qualifies for with a unit inside that transport that does not qualify for it.

dietrich wrote:The rules only address a unit with a dedicated transport. And it specifies a Dedicated Transport. So you can't put Chosen in a Chaos LR and Outflank.

And there is the disconnect.

It discusses the transported unit giving the transport Scout - because without it the transport cannot Scout.

Valkyrie/Vendetta models HAVE Scout. They do not need a unit to give it to them.

Outflank is not a USR.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Outflank is not a USR.

So?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Outflank is not a USR.

Yes, well done. This is relevant how? We are talking about the USR's Scout and Infiltrate.

Drunkspleen wrote:If a Valkyrie has no units inside it it can Outflank correct?
There is no rule which says that a Valkyrie that has units without scout in it cannot outflank.
Therefore, a Valkyrie with units in it that do not have scout can still outflank.

Yes and yes. We don't know. Again, there's not a RaW answer, because there's not a specific rule to quote. I'm fine playing that Valkyries with non-scouting passengers can Outflank. I think that was the intent. But, I also remember when 'everyone' was playing that ATSKNF allowed marines to regroup with enemy within 6 inches (back towards the start of third). And I remember when Lash was totally misunderstood, and Adepticon even went with the "you move each model the same distance, can't bunch them up" interpretation. Just because 'everyone' seems to think we should this A doesn't mean that GW won't issue an FAQ giving answer Z. We don't know their intent, because we're not mind readers.

Also, I just noticed the poll is 9:1. Wow. That's pretty high ratio on dakka, 5:1 is usually the most that I remember seeing.

IMO RAW no RAI yes

Is there a rule stopping a Valkyrie/Vendetta from using Scout?
There is a rule allowing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dietrich wrote:The rules only address a unit with a dedicated transport. And it specifies a Dedicated Transport. So you can't put Chosen in a Chaos LR and Outflank.

All correct.

This lets you know that the transports themselves need to have Scout to use the Scout rule - as that is the only model using the rule to move onto or around the table.

LR do not have Scout, any more than the guys inside have the ablility to move 12".

Playing a little Devil's Advocate with y'all.

Is there a rule allowing passengers without Scout to use a non-dedicated transport with Scout USR to Outflank? It's clear passengers with Scout don't confer that to a non-dedicated transport. Why would a non-dedicated transport confer that ability to the passengers then?

Again, I'm OK playing that the troopers can ride along for the Outflank. But, I don't think there's a clear answer to this. Feel free to find a rulebook quote to prove me wrong, but I don't think there is one. I think there's a set of rules that some people interpret to allow the maneuver, and some people don't interpret that way.

dietrich wrote:Is there a rule allowing passengers without Scout to use a non-dedicated transport with Scout USR to Outflank? It's clear passengers with Scout don't confer that to a non-dedicated transport. Why would a non-dedicated transport confer that ability to the passengers then?

Because Outflank is not a USR so is not Conferred to anything.

Page 76.

Scouts

The unit in question is the Valkyrie/Vendetta.

dietrich wrote:Playing a little Devil's Advocate with y'all.

Is there a rule allowing passengers without Scout to use a non-dedicated transport with Scout USR to Outflank? It's clear passengers with Scout don't confer that to a non-dedicated transport. Why would a non-dedicated transport confer that ability to the passengers then?

Again, I'm OK playing that the troopers can ride along for the Outflank. But, I don't think there's a clear answer to this. Feel free to find a rulebook quote to prove me wrong, but I don't think there is one. I think there's a set of rules that some people interpret to allow the maneuver, and some people don't interpret that way.

Yes there is a rule allowing passengers without Scout to use a non-dedicated transport with Scout USR to Outflank.

Drunkspleen wrote:Exactly, the rules don't cover this specific thing, so you default to the closest available, which is that the valkyrie has scout and so can outflank.

If a Valkyrie has no units inside it it can Outflank correct?

There is no rule which says that a Valkyrie that has units without scout in it cannot outflank.

Therefore, a Valkyrie with units in it that do not have scout can still outflank.

NOTE: This does not break the premise of a permissive rule set, permission has been given, and has not been taken away by other rules.

There is absolutely a RAW answer, which is that you may deploy a transport by a special deployment method that it qualifies for with a unit inside that transport that does not qualify for it.

IMO if a drop pod is not a dedicated transport then the same abilities apply to the Valk. It is irrelevant that the valk can do other things or not. I am not sure how a DP is classified but if it is not a Dedicated xport but has the DS rule and a passenger capacity and can bring a unit that does not have that rule then so can a valk. UNLESS there is a special rule for the DP saying it passes this ability onto a unit.

Similarly units can pass it onto an xport for outflanking even if the xport does not have it. Only as it applies to outflanking not infiltrating or DS. I do not recall it being the other way around but I believe it is implied. Although that is an ASSumption. RAW I would have to check. If it does not specifically say then the best way would be to compare the valks to the Drop pods. Ill check later at home.

Hmm, if one argues that the valk/ vendetta cant carry units and outflank....then by the same token would you argue that the valk cant carry units and use their scout move if they start on the board?

Its more closely tied to the movement rules, but the unit still doesnt have scout so they cant make a move before the game....but the valk carrying them does indeed have scout so it can make a pregame move.


As long as nondedicated transports can carry a unit, I really dont see any way to disallow any special move that the transport can make, be it deepstrike, outflank or a regular scout move.


Sliggoth

Gwar! wrote:And lets not forget Land Speeder Storms, which can Deep Strike with Scouts inside

dietrich wrote:SM Scouts have Infiltrate and Scouts. LSS has Scout (iirc). I don't see how that's a comparison either.

They may both have scout but do scouts have deep strike.