Meltas are, as many have pointed out, the most reliable anti-tank weapons that are easily available to an army. Unfortunately, many people, especially on the Internet, seem to have confused "most reliable" with "best," relying entirely on melta weapons for anti-tank purposes and disregarding other options. This doctrine is incorrect.

Two factors combine to make this flaw apparent. First, many or most enemy vehicles are transports; ideally, you should destroy enemy transports when they are far from your force rather than when they are close, thus inflicting the maximum possible disruption on the enemy battle plan and rendering the contents as useless as possible. Second, melta weapons require you to close with the enemy, and therefore impose tactical inflexibility on your troops. A meltagun kills from 12" away if the target is not heavily armored; a missile launcher does so from 48" away, and therefore incurs far less risk. A Cyclone launcher or Typhoon launcher is even better; such weapons are essentially autocannons with an extra point of strength and much better anti-horde capacity. Such weapons should make up one's primary anti-tank firepower; they are both more flexible and safer than meltaguns, and can destroy enemy transports and light vehicles before they close into dangerous distances. Even the much-maligned lascannon can be an effective weapon for this sort of long range anti-tank work.

There is one other important consideration to make, however, which is that meltas are generally not only the most efficient method of taking out heavy vehicles, but also necessary to do so. Long range anti-tank weapons are often not useful at all in these cases; AV 14 vehicles are immune to autocannons, can only be glanced by missile launchers, and are rather difficult to stop even with a lascannon. In some armies, such as Tau and certain Imperial Guard builds, more powerful anti-tank weapons exist that can accomplish the same task, but for many lists, melta must serve as the primary anti-heavy vehicle weapon.

Therefore, an army is best served by a reasonable mix of the two weapon types. The primary anti-tank firepower in a shooting-based army should be provided by weapons that can pick off enemy light and medium vehicles (especially transports) from range, such as autocannons. Melta weapons should also be present though, both in order to eliminate enemy heavy vehicles and as secondary "sweepers" that eliminate any vehicles that manage to get through the long-range fire. In this way, the high penetrative power of melta weapons can be used in those cases where it is most important, while the detriments of short range are minimized. Obviously, those units that are equipped with meltaguns should be as mobile as possible, so as to best close in and use their weapons at maximum power.


Note that there are some units, most notably Sternguard in pods, Termicide squads, and the like, for whom the range of melta weapons is not a significant downside. Though such units can be powerful, one should always evaluate the tradeoffs; in many cases, the suicide unit may prove unable to have a significant effect on the enemy, or will prove unable to kill units that are more valuable than itself. Further, such units may be positionally countered by a savvy player, or even directly countered by a player who takes a Dæmonhunters Inquisitor with Mystics. However, they fill a role that other units generally do not, so may be worth taking. If you do decide to take such units, melta is obviously the best option, as its primary disadvantage (range) is mitigated by these units' Deep Strike or other rapid deployment capabilities.

This is totally accurate. You didn't even need to add your caveat at the bottom about some units being ok with the short range.

To some players, this has been obvious from the beginning, to some others they had to learn the hard way. Or they'll soon learn the hard way when they get to a populated tourney.

I've got a great example of an army that uses the 'melta is the only reliable tank kill' concept, and fails hard as a result. I am ashamed to admit I am the author of this list

IG 1750

CCS 4x melta chimera HF

vets 3x melta chimera HF
vets 3x melta chimera HF
vets 3x melta chimera HF

2x devildog HF
2x devildog HF
2x devildog HF

medusa BB
medusa BB
medusa BB

I honestly thought I was on to something. I boasted about my 13 heavy flamers, I boasted about my 13 BS4 meltas, I was knocking out land raider armies in embarrassingly quick one-sided games. My group mates were hot and heavy for battlewagons, and i cut through them, heavy demon armies weren't a problem for me when directing all my meltaguns into crushers or MCs and heavy flaming troops. I even beat some more balanced aggressive marine armies. But don't let the spammy goodness of that list fool you. If you don't pull the guy that is planning on driving armor 14 to you, or forced to deepstrike his CC army next to you, you lose.

I took some really bad beats... and then the W/L ratio cranked hard to the loss side. Its an entirely armor 12 army, with only three units having a 48" range tops. Those three units are open topped. The first guy with 30 lootas that used smart target priority took me down. Then space marine bike armies with MMAB started taking me down, then my friends 'for fun' IG army with hydras and autocannon vets in chimeras with heavy bolters ate my lunch.

Fetterkey hit one really important detail to 40k that people forget. When you kill a 'transport' vehicle in your own half of the table. Did you do anything at all? Not really. the unit inside was already 'transported'. Now land raiders are exempt here, as they are fully armed tanks in addition to their transport capacity, and conventional weaponry is nearly hopeless against it. And how about vehicles that aren't interested in letting your melta weapons get close to them. Vendettas and fire prisms come to mind.

Nowadays my IG list looks a LOT less spammy, and has an even spread of anti-tank weapons. I'm running one or two foot platoons with autocannons, to take my BID orders, I'm running a squadron of vendettas for some mobile TL lascannons, I still have 8 meltaguns, and still run 1-2 medusas. Devildogs still make an appearance on occasion as well. I don't just light up land raider spammers anymore, or really any spammer anymore. But my W/L has certainly evened back out. And I have the tools to win a spearhead, a dawn of war, and of course a pitched.

Funny how not just replicating a single weapon over and over will give you that added flexibility huh

Well said. I see why people like melta weapons so much but really I find them too limited, you have to get in close, most of the time people are guning for units with melta weapons, if you can get in close enough with the things you probly only have one shot before the unit is wiped out or forced to flee.

I find with most suiccide units that they either scatter out of melta range, or end up in some sort of deep strike mishap, sure drop pods avoid the mishap problem but dont solve the range issue and in kill points games your suiccide sternguard, or tac squad has just given the enemy 2 kill points to possibly gain one.

I do use melta guns but there not my only choice for anti tank weapons, I mainly use them as t4 or less character killers without that pesky eternal warrior rule.

fot my AT, I prefer the Lascannon, Missile launcher, and the Assault cannon for av 10-11 which also makes a very anti good infantry weapon.

Melta guns I keep one or 2 around, Multi meltas I leave on vehicles. Typhoon land speeders with one, dreadnoughts, leaman russ vanquishers with a pair i find particularly effective, and the devildog with the melta cannon and a multi melta.

Yes these units can get quite expensive, but sometimes its quite worth the expense.

Some choices are unused and stated as over pointed but things like a devie squad with 4 lasscannon and a lasscannon razorback, 300 points 5 lasscannons, 1 twin linked and one with bs 5 or a guard infantry platoon with heavy weapons squads added in, lasscannons at 105 for 3, or missile launchers at 90 points for 3, 75 points for 3 autocannons, for a total of 655 points you can get upto 8 scoring units, and 15 lascannons. for 630 points you can get 15 missile launchers, and for 605 15 autocannons. for another 60 points you can add 6 melta guns to those formations.

It's nice to see people are coming around to the notion that successful armies need flexibility, which is hard to do in an environment chock full of armies based on redundancy (aka "spam").

Of course, as Shep points out, redundant armies are rock-scissors-paper to other redundant armies, and rock-paper-paper to flexible armies.

Flexibility can be analyzed as having two parts:

(1) Complementarity, where long-ranged anti-vehicle weapons like Lascannons, Missile Launchers, and Autocannons complement short-ranged ant-tank weapons like Melta Guns and Multi-Meltas. Units can complement units, like a Vendetta complementing a Devil Dog, or models within units can complement each other, like a Lascannon armed model in the same Tactical squad as a Melta Gun armed model.

(2) Applicability, where a weapon that can be used against one target can also be used effectively against another target. A Medusa's regular Siege Cannon ammunition is more flexible than its Bastion-Breacher ammunition despite being less effective against heavy armour because it has that large blast marker for use against dismounted infantry as well as S10 ordnance to use on bunkers and armour. A Melta Gun can Instant Death infantry as well as AP1 heavy armour. This also applies to range, with a 36" ranged weapon doing everything a 24" ranged weapon can and the extra 12" of effect.

My experience has been somewhat like Shep's, except that I was the guy in the Land Raiders, and I learned to sit back and let the Land Raider's Lascannons do my talking. Eventually most of those Land Raiders were replaced by Chaos Space Marine squads with Lascannons so that my army had the flexibility to engage at long ranges as well as at close range.

My main problem now is trying to convert some Autocannons for a third squad of Havocs...

Shep wrote:
Funny how not just replicating a single weapon over and over will give you that added flexibility huh

Amen Brother Numsi

The OP is dead on, thats why I always take one infantry squad the heavy weapons and heavy weapon squads gives you an advantage over pure mech list in my opinion.

Yep. Just another reason the CSM codex is so full of fail.

Space Wolves, now, are going to be rather revolutionary; say it with me, 5 ML Long Fang squads! Wooo!

Anti Tank imo I like dishing out a mix of melta and lascannon, the lucky shot on a blastmaster never hurt whatever really get's the job done lol.

I completely agree. You need a mix of range and melta weapons to have an effective fire base.

But what about armies that don't get meltaguns? :(

I see your point though (this is also why I personally hate the multimelta, "Oh look, a longer ranged meltagun, but you can't move while firing it to get close enough to melt something, happy hunting! ")

starbomber109 wrote:I see your point though (this is also why I personally hate the multimelta, "Oh look, a longer ranged meltagun, but you can't move while firing it to get close enough to melt something, happy hunting! ")

Thats why I limit them to vehicles, move and fire, speeders make it easy to get them aound the sides or sometiems rear of vehicles.

I am in agreement. Melta is good, but in certain situations. This is why in my large crusader squads (with my BT) i stuck to Flamers, IMO a lot more useful in their AI role!

Awww...why do you have to hate on the meltaguns?

We dont hate them we jsut dotn think that they should be the only anti tank in a list, which seems to be the predominant anti tank tactic now, suicide sternguard, suicide termies, suicide outflanking meltavets, regular meltavets, vulkan lists, ect. ect.

Personally I belive for every melta weapon there should be at least one ranged AT weapon.

I think people are finally starting to realize now that that need a good mix of long range AT to effectively deal with mech armies seeing that mechanized lists are so prevalent now. It takes time for a trend to work it's way through the general population and I think we are now at the point where to vast majority of armies we see are mech in some form or another.

The melta though is still the best AT weapon and having to deal with their shorter range is not by any means a bad thing. For instance 24" is still fairly long range and S8 coupled with AP1 can pop AV13 and below, in fact the melta can wreck AV14 outside of half range but you will need hot dice. Assault units have to close with the enemy so they are an excellent place to pack meltaguns. Fire Dragons mounted in a skimmer is also an excellent unit for tank hunting. Deep striking Oblits are another dangerous tank hunting unit as well and they can be hard to neutralize unless you take them into account during deployment.

So the melta is definitely the best AT gun at the moment but armies with also access to long range guns should invest in them as well.

sourclams wrote:Yep. Just another reason the CSM codex is so full of fail.

Space Wolves, now, are going to be rather revolutionary; say it with me, 5 ML Long Fang squads! Wooo!

Now I dont want to open up the CSM Codex box here (as there are many good arguments as to why this codex is not loved by the masses - and there are many other threads), but I dont think this statement is supported by the OP's argument. The CSM codex has great options for complementary long and short range anti tank options - and this is exactly how I like to use them. I get great utility out of an infiltrating Melta squad of 5 chosen, backed up by a 4 ML or Autocannon squad of Havocs for transport popping/infantry killing. Defilers are great long range tank crackers, whilst land raider acting as a shield wall for a vindicator is very effective at getting into range/protecting that vindicators side armour. Oblits are great allrounders, good for close, good for long distance.

I mainly play against IG and Eldar. for Eldar I love the autocannon, two s 7 shots against those AV12s are more effective than a single s8 Krak shot (in my experience). For IG I like a ML - the st 8 is enough for light medium tank popping, and the small blast deals effectively with their heavy weapons squads.

personaly I like the vanquisher cannon, no downsides to it, it has the range of a battle cannon and the hitting power of a multi melta without the melta rule at a relatively low points cost. It should be on more vehicles than just the leaman russ. a rhino based tank hunter varian with one would be awesome.

The vanquisher is great except for the part where it isn't AP1, costs way too much, and when shooting from long range will likely be firing through cover.

Melta guns are very good for killing heavy armor. That is what they should be used for. Besides railguns and lance weapons there is not really anything that kills heavy armor from range very well.

That is why most solid lists take a lot of autocannons, missile launchers ect.

Tau have missile pods, rail rifles
SM has dakka preds, rifleman dreads
CSM has oblits
Eldar have lances
IG has everything including cheap lascannons
Nids have nothing reliable
Necrons don't really have much
Chaos has nothing
Orks have lootas
DE have mass lances

Most good lists of all of these armies already employ the long range anti light armor weapons.

Funny that the best armies have these quality long range weapons as well as easy access to melta weaponry.

Notice Tau, eldar, SM, IG, and DE all have that.
CSM to a lesser extent.

Kinda funny how that works out.

ManwithIronHands wrote:personaly I like the vanquisher cannon, no downsides to it, it has the range of a battle cannon and the hitting power of a multi melta without the melta rule at a relatively low points cost. It should be on more vehicles than just the leaman russ. a rhino based tank hunter varian with one would be awesome.

Or better yet- a SUPER Heavy Weapons Team. It'll take 3 Guardsmen to run and 2 turns to set up, but after that you have a Vanquisher cannon mounted on a swivel ready to kill anything on the field! (Incidentally it'll cost the same as taking a Vanquisher tank and have a rule or two gamers can argue over for years on end)

This is why I think vendettas are a must have for IG armies. Fairly cheap, lots of tactical options, and incredible ranged AT firepower. Compliments the rest of most IG armies extremely well.

Timmah:

You curiously forget to mention Chaos Space Marine Havocs with Autocannons, and Chaos Predators. The latter being able to mount a Havoc Launcher can make it an even meaner anti-light vehicle platform, and lightwise help it handle what spills out of the transports. It also help turn a Lascannon Predator from a tank-hunter into something with more flexibility.

darkkt wrote:

The CSM codex has great options for complementary long and short range anti tank options - and this is exactly how I like to use them.

I don't want to derail the OP's thread so I won't go into this enormously, but the reason the CSM codex is full of fail and illustrates the OP's points very well is because you are basically limited to 3 FOC slots for long range AT. If you can't take it on a Heavy, you're either shoe-horning units that aren't meant to perform the ranged AT role (10 CSM with a lascannon) or are forgoing entirely.

Defilers are great long range tank crackers,

No.

ph34r wrote:The vanquisher is great except for the part where it isn't AP1, costs way too much, and when shooting from long range will likely be firing through cover.

meh ap1 doesnt healp all that much, yeah it makes a pen hit 50/50 to destroy, with the other 50% doing something nasty. but you gotta trade of something, and a vanquisher isnt all that much at 155 points, for more than twice the reach of a multi melta and more than 4x the reach of a meltagun, av 14 13 10 makes it a tough nut to crack. the ability to move and fire heavy waepons as well make it quite formidable. For 250 points you have a tank with bs 4, +1 weapon strength vs vehicles, and reroll to wound vs MC with a vanquisher cannon, lasscanon, and 2 multimelta, that it can move and fire. I wouldnet want to be an MC or tank within 12" or even 24" of that thing.

Yeah cover can be an issue but that can be negated by good deployment and the mobility the tank has. I'm not saying that its the be all end all of anti tank but its a great long range option.

AP 1 means everything you roll is at least a 2. So even if you only get a 1, its still pretty/very useful against a lot of tanks.

I didn't mention other CSM heavy support choices because they are all pretty much inferior to oblits. Sure you can buy 4 autocannons with havocs. But you get 3 lascannons that can move (slowly) for cheaper. Lascannons are good for popping av11, its just usually they are expensive.

Same goes for the triple lascannon predator. Its inferior to oblits in most circumstances, though it is a bit cheaper.


Another observation. All of the top tier armies at the moment can get autocannons (or better) in a non heavy support role. This could be the reason CSM is good but not amazing anymore.

I was just about to start a thread on the same subject.

I see all of the kids taking melta these days and not taking any long range fire-power.

Don’t get me wrong, I like melta on the right platform, but your army should not be based around it.

If I see someone taking melta weapons to the exclutions of all others, I know it will be an easy win. Really, how do you expect to use multi-melta in a tac squad?

I am an old-school player and in lascannons I trust.

Ditto to everyone's comments...thankfully the IG has all the tools to create a balanced list AND to handle most spam armies out there....

The manticore and basilisk fulfill the role of long range heavy AT busting for me, since with indirect fire at range you can deny cover saves and you hit the side armor, autocannons and multilasers for light armor, and meltas take over what the LR weapons cannot finish off....

In emergencies and as a last resort, there are times when your rolls suck in the shooting phase and some vehicles survive (mostly due to poor damage result rolls....ever get days when you roll 1 and 2's for the damage?)..then krak grenades from veteran squads/StormTroops/and even RRiders will try to finish off those with AV10 rear armor (it is usually the RRs who do this, as I only dismount vets if necessary, and RR's are suicide units anyway). This works especially well if the vehicle was immobilized previously, as all the CC attacks autohit...

Nightwatch wrote:Awww...why do you have to hate on the meltaguns?

I don't hate meltaguns, but I don't worship them either.

Timmah wrote:Same goes for the triple lascannon predator. Its inferior to oblits in most circumstances, though it is a bit cheaper.

The triple lascannon Predator isn't very good, as the las turret is overcosted by at least 30 points. The auto/las Predator, on the other hand, provides a good threat to light vehicles, and for a fairly cheap price.

It really depends on the army. I am playing Eldar and while Bright Lances are great albeit expensive, they are one of very few true anti tank options available at long range. The only other options would be a prism, a falcons pulse laser (a complete waste), or an EML which cant do much to high AV, two of those choices suck up a full HS slot. Combine low choices available for cheap anti heavy AV that with the low cost of Fire Dragons I will never leave home without a squad because they're a reliable piece for me.

Eldar are a special case; Fire Dragons are indeed so good that they can easily be your primary anti-tank firepower. My post is mostly focused towards Imperial armies, and Marines in particular, which I have much more experience with.

Well marines are a much more, chill in the midfield at 12-24 inches and fire away army. Obviously this leaves holes in lists. That's why a lot of people have started using multiple dakka predators and rifleman dreads.

I don't really have any nuggets of wisdom right now. However, I will state that I really like this topic and how refreshing it is to read a topic like this in tactics.

1x str 10klaw on a bike

1x str 9 klaw on a bike

3 x str 9 klaw in a trukk

3 x str 9 klaws on foot

10 lootaz

2 x killa kan with rokkits



Who needs melta weaponry?

When the long ranged AT weapons were put up for Tau you forgot the best anti-tank weapon outside of Apocalypse.

...RAILGUNS...

Who needs melta.

Speaking of "Rifleman Dreds", I kind preferred it when they were called "Mortis Pattern Dreadnoughts". Maybe if we're good the next Dark Angels codex will have full options for the Mortis Pattern, and not just the Autocannons available to regular Space Marines.

Also Cyclone Launchers for Dreadnoughts...

/jack

Rommel in his papers talked about his frustration with his soldiers when they didn't immediately return fire. He believed immediately returning fire was the only response when meeting an enemy.

The same holds true for 40k, where the best way to survive an enemy, is to kill him first.

Diversity in AT is what's called for in good lists.

sourclams wrote:I don't want to derail the OP's thread so I won't go into this enormously, but the reason the CSM codex is full of fail and illustrates the OP's points very well is because you are basically limited to 3 FOC slots for long range AT. If you can't take it on a Heavy, you're either shoe-horning units that aren't meant to perform the ranged AT role (10 CSM with a lascannon) or are forgoing entirely.

I have been trying out chaos lists with 5-man chosen squads and a lascannon. That's 125pts for a combat squad-like lascannons. It infiltrates so if I go first I can still position them to hit the enemy I want on turn 1, but more importantly it adds more units that can shoot tanks at range in the CSM list.

Your analysis is correct. The only thing is that meltaguns are the best anti-tank weapon, but that doesn't mean that you should use it all the time.

It is good to have lascannons and ML's in your lists to balance out this fact and be able to pop light armor from afar. Then you can send in meltagun units to take care of things like Predators and LRD and AV13+ that would be to detrimental to keep around for long.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:1x str 10klaw on a bike

1x str 9 klaw on a bike

3 x str 9 klaw in a trukk

3 x str 9 klaws on foot

10 lootaz

2 x killa kan with rokkits



Who needs melta weaponry?

You have no idea what you are talking about. Orks BIGGEST vice is killing high AV. You have 2 non-assault anti-armor elements and 1 can't even touch AV14. Only FC Nobz (st9) and Warbosses can even PENETRATE the AV14! (Edited for maths stupidity ROFL!)

Now, TAU and Dark Eldar are the ONLY races (Eldar are in there but they have Firedragons so they have NO exuse not to have melta) that can get bye reliably without meltaguns. You don't include Chaos Daemons and Orks because they suffer greatly because they don't have them and have a replacement for them!

This is because Tau has Seeker Missile, Markerlights, and RAILGUNS! Eldar and DE have lances so they get bye very much so fine.

Smurfs probably have one of the best armies to gather Anti-Tank in the form of non-melta only equaled by guard. (other than DE and Eldar lances but we are ignoring lances ATM)

10 man marine squad w/ Razorback w/ TLLC + Lascannon + Meltagun combat-squadded. That is a VERY nice AT unit. Run around with mobile lascannons shots with a lascannon firebase and a meltagun to go along with it. Give the sarg a combi-melta in the razorback and dang!

double AC dreds and AC/HB predators backing that up and you got a lot of firepower!

The nastiest anti-light armor killers have to be Tau though. Between giving their crisis suits missile pods then using markerlights to hit side armor and gain BS, they are just vicious.

EzeKK wrote:Your analysis is correct. The only thing is that meltaguns are the best anti-tank weapon, but that doesn't mean that you should use it all the time.


1x str 9 klaw on a bike

3 x str 9 klaw in a trukk

3 x str 9 klaws on foot

10 lootaz

2 x killa kan with rokkits



Who needs melta weaponry?

You have no idea what you are talking about. Orks BIGGEST vice is killing high AV. You have 2 non-assault anti-armor elements and 1 can't even touch AV14. Only the ST10 warboss can even PENETRATE the AV14!

Now, TAU and Dark Eldar are the ONLY races (Eldar are in there but they have Firedragons so they have NO exuse not to have melta) that can get bye reliably without meltaguns. You don't include Chaos Daemons and Orks because they suffer greatly because they don't have them and have a replacement for them!

This is because Tau has Seeker Missile, Markerlights, and RAILGUNS! Eldar and DE have lances so they get bye very much so fine.

Smurfs probably have one of the best armies to gather Anti-Tank in the form of non-melta only equaled by guard. (other than DE and Eldar lances but we are ignoring lances ATM)

10 man marine squad w/ Razorback w/ TLLC + Lascannon + Meltagun combat-squadded. That is a VERY nice AT unit. Run around with mobile lascannons shots with a lascannon firebase and a meltagun to go along with it. Give the sarg a combi-melta in the razorback and dang!

double AC dreds and AC/HB predators backing that up and you got a lot of firepower!

The nastiest anti-light armor killers have to be Tau though. Between giving their crisis suits missile pods then using markerlights to hit side armor and gain BS, they are just vicious.

I wouldn't say biggest vice. I'd say susceptibility to LD checks on units which can't get big enough to mob up is the bigest vice. I lose more games based on failing critical LD checks than I do based on any other factor (with the possible exception of highly mobile forces getting the charge against my boyz which is my fault as a bad player rather than the lists fault).

Eh? Deffkoptas? Everything else should be 10+ or in transports.

sourclams wrote:

I wouldn't say biggest vice. I'd say susceptibility to LD checks on units which can't get big enough to mob up is the bigest vice. I lose more games based on failing critical LD checks than I do based on any other factor (with the possible exception of highly mobile forces getting the charge against my boyz which is my fault as a bad player rather than the lists fault).

Eh? Deffkoptas? Everything else should be 10+ or in transports.

Deffkoptaz, lootaz, nobz, bikez, trukk boyz, grotz, whittled down boyz mobz

I don't run koptaz but I always run bikes and it's pretty much 50/50 as to whether they will hold for an entire game against everything and piss of my opponents immensely or go run screaming at the first sound a lasgun powering up.

lootaz start out at 10+ and require almost no return firepower to send them running away.

Trukk boyz and nobz do indeed hang around in transports but eventually they have to get out and assault something at which point it really sucks to have your 250pt unit of death wiped out due to a sweeping advance and a few jammy rolls.

And being 10+ doesn't stop my 20 strong grot mob being tank shocked off an objective and failing an ld7 roll, twice.

What's a landraider going to do? Fire hurricane bolters at me? Please I have boys to spare. Disgorge an assault unit, well that is where positional tactics comes into play. It might win you the game, it might not. Anything that isn't a landraider I can kill in combat with p-klaws or ignore based on what I deem to be the best option.

Leadership is a much bigger problem for me than tanks.

Edit: BLEH!~ I need to read the thread more closely...

Tau have fusion blasters, those are melta weapons IIRC. *checking back of the rulebook*

Yup! Tau do to have meltaguns, they also have a lascannonish gun (only better @S10) So stop saying they don't.

All the other books written back in 4th when glancing (apparently) had a different damage chart seem to have been balanced specifically for glancing shots being better. (Like the Necron warrior guns, that always glance on a 6....but in this edition, glancing them to death isn't a good idea anymore, this is why lascannons and nobs toting power Klaws aren't as awesome against armor as they used to be.)

The interesting thing in 5th edition is that you can glance vehicles to death: enough Damage results (Weapon Destroyed and Immobilized) and they convert to Destroyed (Wrecked).

I like meltaguns. I really do. Normal CSM squads (or plague marines) in rhinos with 2 meltas is great. Move up 12", then from then on you have a mobile 2 AP1 shots a turn (which makes LR babies cry). But I cannot agree more that its the be all end all in anti tank.

For one you can get meltabombs, which I feel are invaluable in squads of khorne zerkers and things in some games (like Tau or IG who are tank heavy). Lascannons, of course, for its high strength. Missile launcher are cheap in things like SM's, tho for CSM I shy away. Sutocannons are insanely good against most armys as tyheres only a few AV 14 vehicles running around (not to mention they own nids). The list goes on!

I could not agree more tho

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I don't run koptaz but I always run bikes and it's pretty much 50/50 as to whether they will hold for an entire game against everything and piss of my opponents immensely or go run screaming at the first sound a lasgun powering up.

lootaz start out at 10+ and require almost no return firepower to send them running away.

Trukk boyz and nobz do indeed hang around in transports but eventually they have to get out and assault something at which point it really sucks to have your 250pt unit of death wiped out due to a sweeping advance and a few jammy rolls.

And being 10+ doesn't stop my 20 strong grot mob being tank shocked off an objective and failing an ld7 roll, twice.

What's a landraider going to do? Fire hurricane bolters at me? Please I have boys to spare. Disgorge an assault unit, well that is where positional tactics comes into play. It might win you the game, it might not. Anything that isn't a landraider I can kill in combat with p-klaws or ignore based on what I deem to be the best option.

Leadership is a much bigger problem for me than tanks.

I saw this and I Lol_ed. Ezekk is right, you have no idea what you are talking about.

You definitely do not know how to use orks, do you?
Biker Squads should always have access to bosspoles and therefore the chances of running away is definitely not 50/50.

Lootas may have a problem with this, but problem can be avoided by smart deployment, forcing your opponent to choose their target more carefully.

Boyz mob are most resistant to Ld checks, contrary to what you thought otherwise. At 11-30, they are fearless. At 8-10, you use the mob rule leadership, and have access to reroll. At 1-7, you use Ld of 7 and have access to reroll.

As for your last pt - You haven't played against a Landraider spam list, have you?

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:Leadership is a much bigger problem for me than tanks.

If this is what you think, you may want to start getting some advice on how to play orks.


Btw, I am with the TS on his argument. The effectiveness of Meltas should not be overstated.

Davicus wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I don't run koptaz but I always run bikes and it's pretty much 50/50 as to whether they will hold for an entire game against everything and piss of my opponents immensely or go run screaming at the first sound a lasgun powering up.

lootaz start out at 10+ and require almost no return firepower to send them running away.

Trukk boyz and nobz do indeed hang around in transports but eventually they have to get out and assault something at which point it really sucks to have your 250pt unit of death wiped out due to a sweeping advance and a few jammy rolls.

And being 10+ doesn't stop my 20 strong grot mob being tank shocked off an objective and failing an ld7 roll, twice.

What's a landraider going to do? Fire hurricane bolters at me? Please I have boys to spare. Disgorge an assault unit, well that is where positional tactics comes into play. It might win you the game, it might not. Anything that isn't a landraider I can kill in combat with p-klaws or ignore based on what I deem to be the best option.

Leadership is a much bigger problem for me than tanks.

I saw this and I Lol_ed. Ezekk is right, you have no idea what you are talking about.

You definitely do not know how to use orks, do you?
Biker Squads should always have access to bosspoles and therefore the chances of running away is definitely not 50/50.

Lootas may have a problem with this, but problem can be avoided by smart deployment, forcing your opponent to choose their target more carefully.

Boyz mob are most resistant to Ld checks, contrary to what you thought otherwise. At 11-30, they are fearless. At 8-10, you use the mob rule leadership, and have access to reroll. At 1-7, you use Ld of 7 and have access to reroll.

As for your last pt - You haven't played against a Landraider spam list, have you?

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:Leadership is a much bigger problem for me than tanks.

If this is what you think, you may want to start getting some advice on how to play orks.


Btw, I am with the TS on his argument. The effectiveness of Meltas should not be overstated.

We're drifting madly off topic here into whether or not I'm a crap ork player but I'm going to respond to this anyway.

I do not "need advice on playing orks." I live in Japan and consequently have no GW store and my friendly LGS is some distance away and I can't go there for anything more than local tournies. I mostly play with a small group of friends a few of whom own multiple armies and one of which is a top tier player who regularly leaves Japan to attend international tournaments. Amongst them I do okay, I beat the top tier guy ocassionally, lose as much as you'd expect when an average player runs up against a very skilled player. In the last local tournament I placed 2nd on battle points (to the top tier guy) and first on victory points (and about 8th overall because I can't paint for gak). I may be missing the grand high trick to orks that will make me win ardboyz every year (not that I could compete in it as I live in Japan) but I do perfectly okay and win far more often than I lose.

So believe me, I know how to use my army and I do not respond well to insults based on absolutely no knowledge of myself.

Now arguing your actual points.

Bikes - yes my bikes have a bosspole, as does every unit in my army that can take one. Obviously this is better than 50/50 (math not my strong point but I believe the bosspole makes it a 75/25 chance of a pass if testing on ld7?) I was referring more to the general balance of the game. In half my games the cover saves, high toughness and relatively high armour save of my bikes makes them a very good unit for shrugging off enemy fire. I have seen them shrug off a whole destroyer units wrth of shots with no losses. It takes quite a high amount of firepower to get rid of them. However in the other half of my games I fail a leadership check and they run off the board, or lose cc against something pathetic like a devvy unit by 1, run away and get cut down. I still use them because all my opponents hate them and I think they're useful but they are crippled by that ld7.

Lootaz - you basically used the "use tactics" argument against me. What smart deployment allows for my lootaz to get a nice clear range of fire and not be shot back at? Does nobody use land speeders, deep strike units, outflankers, falcons, etc where you play? The list of units that can send a lootaz mob screaming from the table is long and varied. Usually they get by on the fact that most opponents don't wish to engage them directly and just ignore them, letting me ocassionally do something devastating with them. But anyone who seriously wants them gone only has to look at them funny.

And before you say it, yes I deploy in cover, yes I've used grot shields. None of that saves them from being tank shocked off the board edge for the umpteenth time.

Boyz - I'm well aware of how mob rule works thankyou and I use bosspoles in all mobz that can have one. Now I want you to examine your games with orks. Do you lose your boyz units because every model in the mob was killed　or do you lose boyz units when they lose cc and have to take a ld check at something like -6, fail and get cut down? Boyz are obviously the unit in the list that has the least problems with leadership as mob rule will keep them safe from ld checks from shooting on the way in and mean that it takes a lot of effort and attacks to get them to the stage when they can break. It doesn't change the fact that breaking ork mobz in cc is the easiest way to kill them.

I　notice you didn't respond to grot mobz or nobz mobz, both of which I've seen lost to ld checks too.

Land Raiders - you're right, I haven't played land raider spam. I imagine that it would be very, very tough for my army to beat. I could only hope that putting so many pts in raiders means that a) he doesn't have the bodies/firepower to hurt me properly and b ) I can wipe out his scoring units very quickly. 1 landraider hasn't proven a problem for me in games however.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:We're drifting madly off topic here into whether or not I'm a crap ork player but I'm going to respond to this anyway.

I do not "need advice on playing orks." I live in Japan and consequently have no GW store and my friendly LGS is some distance away and I can't go there for anything more than local tournies. I mostly play with a small group of friends a few of whom own multiple armies and one of which is a top tier player who regularly leaves Japan to attend international tournaments. Amongst them I do okay, I beat the top tier guy ocassionally, lose as much as you'd expect when an average player runs up against a very skilled player. In the last local tournament I placed 2nd on battle points (to the top tier guy) and first on victory points (and about 8th overall because I can't paint for gak). I may be missing the grand high trick to orks that will make me win ardboyz every year (not that I could compete in it as I live in Japan) but I do perfectly okay and win far more often than I lose.

So believe me, I know how to use my army and I do not respond well to insults based on absolutely no knowledge of myself.

Now arguing your actual points.

Bikes - yes my bikes have a bosspole, as does every unit in my army that can take one. Obviously this is better than 50/50 (math not my strong point but I believe the bosspole makes it a 75/25 chance of a pass if testing on ld7?) I was referring more to the general balance of the game. In half my games the cover saves, high toughness and relatively high armour save of my bikes makes them a very good unit for shrugging off enemy fire. I have seen them shrug off a whole destroyer units wrth of shots with no losses. It takes quite a high amount of firepower to get rid of them. However in the other half of my games I fail a leadership check and they run off the board, or lose cc against something pathetic like a devvy unit by 1, run away and get cut down. I still use them because all my opponents hate them and I think they're useful but they are crippled by that ld7.

Lootaz - you basically used the "use tactics" argument against me. What smart deployment allows for my lootaz to get a nice clear range of fire and not be shot back at? Does nobody use land speeders, deep strike units, outflankers, falcons, etc where you play? The list of units that can send a lootaz mob screaming from the table is long and varied. Usually they get by on the fact that most opponents don't wish to engage them directly and just ignore them, letting me ocassionally do something devastating with them. But anyone who seriously wants them gone only has to look at them funny.

And before you say it, yes I deploy in cover, yes I've used grot shields. None of that saves them from being tank shocked off the board edge for the umpteenth time.

Boyz - I'm well aware of how mob rule works thankyou and I use bosspoles in all mobz that can have one. Now I want you to examine your games with orks. Do you lose your boyz units because every model in the mob was killed　or do you lose boyz units when they lose cc and have to take a ld check at something like -6, fail and get cut down? Boyz are obviously the unit in the list that has the least problems with leadership as mob rule will keep them safe from ld checks from shooting on the way in and mean that it takes a lot of effort and attacks to get them to the stage when they can break. It doesn't change the fact that breaking ork mobz in cc is the easiest way to kill them.

I　notice you didn't respond to grot mobz or nobz mobz, both of which I've seen lost to ld checks too.

Land Raiders - you're right, I haven't played land raider spam. I imagine that it would be very, very tough for my army to beat. I could only hope that putting so many pts in raiders means that a) he doesn't have the bodies/firepower to hurt me properly and b ) I can wipe out his scoring units very quickly. 1 landraider hasn't proven a problem for me in games however.

Don't show me your record, because I just yawned at it. Couple this with your comments that follow only makes me feel that only mediocre players took part in your local tournament

Bikes - So the chances that you get shot off based on normal shooting IS 25%, not too bad I would say. You mentioned CC. If you get cut down 50% of the time this way, blame it on the way you play, not the Ld. A good 75% chance is a good 75% chance, the fundamental doesnt change just because you played badly and charge into the wrong things.

Loota - I ll give JUST one example. Contrary to what some might think, Lootas are great support units for bikes. IF you have an army with this two units, with intelligent placement/deployment, you can force your opponent to face the wrath of your bikes sooner than they prefer, should they decide to harass your lootas.

Boyz - No, I am smarter and therefore I do not charge w/o thinking, lose cc and have to take a ld check at something like -6, fail and get cut down (thx, I lol-ed at this). There are times I do get cut down like tat, but definitely very rare. There is actually an article on dakka on this, great for beginners like you to read it up.

Grot - I use them less frequently. I don't coment on sth which I don't excel in.

Nob - I probably missed it or did not even see you mention them. Since you need help here, I ll oblige. Nobs have access to BPs (some players even take multiples), and preferbly should go along with a warboss to absorb str8/9 shots. For the same reasons, they are not too bad when it comes to taking Ld checks.

Since you haven't even played against such a list, there is no pt for me to discuss abt it here (as you most probably cant appreciate the idea anyway).

Well, this thread degenerated into flaming pretty quickly. Shame too, I was enjoying it until recently.

Now that we are done drifting off topic, I would like to remind people that orks do actually have a (single) melta shot

Meltas are fine, but there are other ways to kill tanks. Melta might be "most reliable" but it happens to also be "most dangerous" due to the specifics of the melta rule. You have to get close, REALLY close. (which I think the OP touched on)

starbomber109 wrote:Now that we are done drifting off topic, I would like to remind people that orks do actually have a (single) melta shot

Meltas are fine, but there are other ways to kill tanks. Melta might be "most reliable" but it happens to also be "most dangerous" due to the specifics of the melta rule. You have to get close, REALLY close. (which I think the OP touched on)

sure if you roll up the correct psychic power.

I miss the melta and auto-hit on zzzap gunz.

On the actual topic I agree entirely with the original poster. In my space wolves force (newly to be renovated, yay) my primary anti-tank weaponry is melta weapons but I always try and squeeze in a few autocannons and lascannons specifically for shutting down enemy transports. Pretty much the only way to beat DE (one of my regular opponents when I ran my wolves) is to blunt that raider rush with big guns.


P.S. I just noticed that I was arguing with Davicus who is a blatant troll and I have no intention of continuing this discussion. I would be far more productive attempting to turn back the tide. A beginner indeed. 11 years I have been playing this game.

Zzap Gunz never had a Melta effect. The auto-shake is handy though: there's something to be said for a tank that isn't shooting at your Orks.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:P.S. I just noticed that I was arguing with Davicus who is a blatant troll and I have no intention of continuing this discussion. I would be far more productive attempting to turn back the tide. A beginner indeed. 11 years I have been playing this game.

I am not sure if you meant to use the word "troll" on yourself, but I think so.
If you got a point right, prove it. Don't start whining or flaming the moment someone proved you wrong. Otherwise, it doesnt matter how many years of 40k gaming experience you have, you ll remain a mediocre player.


I m sorry this went out of topic. I think this is a good thread and therefore let the discussion continue.

I dont ever see an army with only meltas. An Eldar army would run circles around them.

However, Meltas are simply the best option for a unit like CSM. Assault, ap1, 2d6 pen roll, strength 8 to instant kill - its overpowered really.

Night Lords wrote:I dont ever see an army with only meltas. An Eldar army would run circles around them.

However, Meltas are simply the best option for a unit like CSM. Assault, ap1, 2d6 pen roll, strength 8 to instant kill - its overpowered really.

considering we cannot tac squad (damn marines) I must concur 100%

Fetterkey wrote:Eldar are a special case; Fire Dragons are indeed so good that they can easily be your primary anti-tank firepower. My post is mostly focused towards Imperial armies, and Marines in particular, which I have much more experience with.

Indeed they do make basically anything go boom, but just like with guard, there is a downside to meltas. You have to get in explosion range as t3 vs a s3 explosion which is bound to occur when you're using an ap1 weapon along side tank hunters.

I've tried the dual Melta Gun, but it leaves a squad of Chaos Space Marines either holding their dicks in their hands, or struggling across the field in the face of enemy fire, if the enemy doesn't oblige and drive an expensive heavy tank up in front of them.

A Melta Gun, Combi-Melta, and a Lascannon gives you tank-cracking ability at all ranges, and the 9 Bolters gives you some anti-infantry firepower to complement that.

I just wish CSM didn't have to pay so many points for 2 meltaguns. I always thought 20 wasn't so bad.

Until I saw SW get 2 for 5. D'oh

At least we're still better in close combat. ....oh wait....

But we don't cost as mu.....dang!

Screw it, counts-as Space Wolves!

Spellbound wrote:I just wish CSM didn't have to pay so many points for 2 meltaguns. I always thought 20 wasn't so bad.

Until I saw SW get 2 for 5. D'oh

At least we're still better in close combat. ....oh wait....

But we don't cost as mu.....dang!

Screw it, counts-as Space Wolves!

Honestly I'm not gonna hop into that boat like most CSM players will probably be doing here soon enough... we might get lucky and get a nice, sexy new codex, or maybe a legion dex, or something...

Even so, I'm content with chaos as a whole. yeah, we're gimped in some areas, but honestly I like zerker rush and things. And you can't top the psychological effects of lash

You cant look at the SWs book's troops in isolation. They seem to have to dedicate a ton of points into HQs, and lack a few units Chaos has access to.

Night Lords wrote:You cant look at the SWs book's troops in isolation. They seem to have to dedicate a ton of points into HQs, and lack a few units Chaos has access to.

Don't they also have certain restrictions too? I know they have to take at least 2 HQ's a game, which is at least 300 points (cuz each HQ is half a slot for em). I know GH's are the cheapest marines in the game, but most of their other stuffs pretty expensive... not dark angels or blood ravens expensive, but still expensive

sourclams wrote:

darkkt wrote:

The CSM codex has great options for complementary long and short range anti tank options - and this is exactly how I like to use them.

I don't want to derail the OP's thread so I won't go into this enormously, but the reason the CSM codex is full of fail and illustrates the OP's points very well is because you are basically limited to 3 FOC slots for long range AT. If you can't take it on a Heavy, you're either shoe-horning units that aren't meant to perform the ranged AT role (10 CSM with a lascannon) or are forgoing entirely.

What points lvl are you playing where 9 oblits are not enough ranged anti-tank for you?

I play both Dark Angles and Space Puppies
With my DA I Give my Sergeants Melta-Bombs and Plasma Pistols
My standard Tactical Squads have Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter
My Devastators are 2 Squads with 4 Plasma Cannons and one squad with 4 Heavy Bolters
My Raven Wings I load up with Melta Guns for my AT work

Armor 14 can be a problem, but AV 11 stuff just gets chewed up.

With my SW it is looking like I will be going with flamers for wile until I get some more Melta-Guns
I don’t have many Multi-Meltas right now do to selling them off in the late 90’s, but for a wile I had a 4 Multi-Melta Long Fang Pack, the just ruled the 24” in front of them [back with over-watch] that killed almost any thing that walked in to my field of fire.

Yes I would say that I love Meltas, but the OP hit it on the button.

They don't need to take 2 HQs, no more than daemon armies need to take more than 1 herald. They CAN, but they don't have to.

Meltas aren't the best anti-tank, but they're the most reliable. They're the weapons with the highest odds to penetrate [when close] and highest odds to do damage once you do so. "Best", well, there really is no best. Again meltas are the most reliable, but you have to get really close to use them.

I will say, however, that an army that properly supports itself either won't need meltas or can support them. They'll have enough firepower on hand to take out the infantry that comes out of the transport you kill so that you're not counter-attacked, or they'll pop tanks at range such that your close-range fighters can kill what comes out.

In my Emperor's Children force, I use undivided CSM with meltaguns to pop tanks, then use lash to pull them over to rhinos containing noisemarines, who let loose with doomsirens. I kill any survivors with the rhino's own weapons, and if things go well I can kill 2 or 3 squads a turn.

Oversell on any one thing is generally a bad idea. However the Vul'kan based lists make meltas superior. Even so, it is the mix of meltas and flamers that make that list work. (Pop the can, flame broil the contents.)
I do agree that for killing transports at range is ideal. The issue is the 5th ed charts. If you want to kill a vehicle a melta weapon is the way to go but an autocannon, loota, or missile launcher will do it much better and on turn 1 rather than waiting for turn 2 or 3.

The issue with melta lists is that you better be ready to play aggressive and you better have mobility. 12" range is just not that powerful if your opponent has stand-off capabilities and speed. (e.g. Vendettas, Speeders, Eldar.) In those kind of situations, your melta-armed troops are likely to be doing nothing or forced to close through 1 or 2 turns of enemy long-ranged fire and usually de-transported and sometimes being cut down having accomplished nothing more then entertain the enemy for a couple turns.

Thinking about it, I'd honestly say Vindicators and their SM equivalents (apart from Railguns) are some of the best anti-tank in the game. Being as they're ordanance you get 2d6 and pick the highest. Thats not 2d6 to pen, so you can even do it to monoliths, correct?

Zid wrote:Thinking about it, I'd honestly say Vindicators and their SM equivalents (apart from Railguns) are some of the best anti-tank in the game. Being as they're ordanance you get 2d6 and pick the highest. Thats not 2d6 to pen, so you can even do it to monoliths, correct?

Correct.

Vindies are potentially really nice against tanks but they suffer from two problems

1. difficulty of hitting, it doesn't take much for the small hole to scatter off most of the tanks in 40K, anything using BS is much more reliable in a marine force.

2. Waste of a unit, vindies own whatever you point them at and are usually much more valuable when used against troops.

Using vindictors as your primary means of anti-tank is foolish. You need to use other guns to open up the cans and then use the vindie on whatever pops out. That said if you are faced with a mech list they can be used as anti-tank in a pinch.

That flexibility is one of the many reasons vindies are awesome.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

Zid wrote:Thinking about it, I'd honestly say Vindicators and their SM equivalents (apart from Railguns) are some of the best anti-tank in the game. Being as they're ordanance you get 2d6 and pick the highest. Thats not 2d6 to pen, so you can even do it to monoliths, correct?

Correct.

Vindies are potentially really nice against tanks but they suffer from two problems

1. difficulty of hitting, it doesn't take much for the small hole to scatter off most of the tanks in 40K, anything using BS is much more reliable in a marine force.

2. Waste of a unit, vindies own whatever you point them at and are usually much more valuable when used against troops.

Using vindictors as your primary means of anti-tank is foolish. You need to use other guns to open up the cans and then use the vindie on whatever pops out. That said if you are faced with a mech list they can be used as anti-tank in a pinch.

That flexibility is one of the many reasons vindies are awesome.

Oh I agree, however they are invaluable when facing off with necrons and land raider based armys I've noticed. Where my lascannons need 6's to pens, my vindi just has to hit and I almost always roll a 5 or 6 on one of the dice!

Whats nice is that if its not doing its job as a canopener, you can always wipe out entire squads of... well, whatever, every turn. Or, as I do it, run 2 vindis and a defiler. Blow up the large vehicles with vindis, take out whats inside with the defiler

this thread is closed for the moent as it has been rpeoted and I am reviewing.

The thread derailed but landed back on track. I'll leave it as a a reminder-lets be polite people.

I am so glad to read this. I was just about to invest in a melta heavy list. I want to have flexibility. I have used dreads and sternguard in drop pods effectively. Where do you think meltas/long range fit into that tactic?

Also, I am finding that my IG opponents tend to drop Commandos on me, or drive Leman Russ Sqdns in from the flank on turn 2 or 3. I was thinking that spreading meltas around to all my units would be the counter to that. He doesn't use transports. He has 2 Valkyrie, and 50 model conscript squad that soaks up fire, while he positions his Commandos and Armor sqdrn.

One other way to look at Metlas is as a LAW
There are a great close quaters Anti-Armor Weapon, but if you can have a AT-84 [ML or PC] all the better.

Meltas are great against AV14 armor within the Melta range. The 2d6 penetration gives the melta weapon an average roll of 15 on the penetration roll, in addition to providing +1 on the damage roll.

When damaging lower armor values, this becomes less of an advantage, as the difficulty in penetrating lower armor values scales quickly. While the chances of a ML penetrating the front of a predator are 1/6, they shoot to 3/6% when hitting the front of a rhino -- tripling in effectiveness over those 2 AV.

This means that to destroy lighter vehicles -- razorbacks, rhinos, speeders, defilers, etc -- meltas are akin to using a bazooka to kill a rat. As mentioned before, the drawback with a melta is that one must get within 6" to gain the full advantage of them (or 12" with a multi-melta) possibly requiring a sacrificial unit for every attempt at vehicle destruction.
Against these targets, longer range weapons such as MC and LC are better options, as they can neutralize the threat at longer range and less risk.

The logical question is "How many AV 14 vehicles do I see in a game?" That is dependent on your FLGS and/or the tournaments you play in. In the gaming groups I play in, that number is less than 1, and noone at my FLGS plays LR spam.

Therefore a smart general will consider the answer to the last question and use that to base the melta ratio they should use in their army.

labmouse42 wrote:Meltas are great against AV14 armor within the Melta range. The 2d6 penetration gives the melta weapon an average roll of 15 on the penetration roll, in addition to providing +1 on the damage roll.

When damaging lower armor values, this becomes less of an advantage, as the difficulty in penetrating lower armor values scales quickly. While the chances of a ML penetrating the front of a predator are 1/6, they shoot to 3/6% when hitting the front of a rhino -- tripling in effectiveness over those 2 AV.

This means that to destroy lighter vehicles -- razorbacks, rhinos, speeders, defilers, etc -- meltas are akin to using a bazooka to kill a rat. As mentioned before, the drawback with a melta is that one must get within 6" to gain the full advantage of them (or 12" with a multi-melta) possibly requiring a sacrificial unit for every attempt at vehicle destruction.
Against these targets, longer range weapons such as MC and LC are better options, as they can neutralize the threat at longer range and less risk.

The logical question is "How many AV 14 vehicles do I see in a game?" That is dependent on your FLGS and/or the tournaments you play in. In the gaming groups I play in, that number is less than 1, and noone at my FLGS plays LR spam.

Therefore a smart general will consider the answer to the last question and use that to base the melta ratio they should use in their army.

Meltas are also good at downing MC's and killing off things like terminators, HQ's, etc.

I too have been dropping meltas from my planned SM list. It's going to be quite shooty, with Drop-podding Sternguard w/ combi-plasmas, Dreads with assault cannons/DCCW, and footslogging Tactical squads. I might also run a couple of Las-Predators, because I actually don't see much LR spam at all. After all, isn't that a few hundred dollars worth of them? A few hundred dollars that could be spent on things that can kill AV14?

Besides, three S9 shots at long range isn't bad. Plasma guns are also good for killing Terminators and MCs without getting in too close.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I too have been dropping meltas from my planned SM list. It's going to be quite shooty, with Drop-podding Sternguard w/ combi-plasmas, Dreads with assault cannons/DCCW, and footslogging Tactical squads. I might also run a couple of Las-Predators, because I actually don't see much LR spam at all. After all, isn't that a few hundred dollars worth of them? A few hundred dollars that could be spent on things that can kill AV14?

Besides, three S9 shots at long range isn't bad. Plasma guns are also good for killing Terminators and MCs without getting in too close.

I think the thread has drifted into a potentially dark place.

What has been shown is that taking all the melta in the world isn't going to win you the game.

But does anybody really think they're going to win in a take-all-comers setting without a substantial amount of melta or its equivalent?

The math has conclusively shown that against AV 13/14 lascannons really don't cut it. Railguns barely cut it against AV14, and only because they can ignore cover and/or crank BS up to 5. You really need the double dice and/or AP1 to get enough rolls on the vehicle damage table to put a vehicle down because glancing to death is utterly inefficient.

You can't have an effective offensive range of 6" and expect to run the gauntlet of missile launchers and autocannons. But you also can't have only las, missile launchers, plasma, and 'cannons and expect to be worth a damn against the Russes/Hammerheads pounding you across the table or the Land Raider bearing down on your fixed guns.

I'd also like to point out that a podding Sternguard squad is one of very few units that is truly ideal for melta use, especially when taken in a full squad.

ManwithIronHands wrote:personaly I like the vanquisher cannon, no downsides to it, it has the range of a battle cannon and the hitting power of a multi melta without the melta rule at a relatively low points cost. It should be on more vehicles than just the leaman russ. a rhino based tank hunter varian with one would be awesome.

It also makes more sense, anti-tank tanks are usually faster then their counterparts, so they can circle around MBT and hit their rear armour

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of "Rifleman Dreds", I kind preferred it when they were called "Mortis Pattern Dreadnoughts". Maybe if we're good the next Dark Angels codex will have full options for the Mortis Pattern, and not just the Autocannons available to regular Space Marines.

Also Cyclone Launchers for Dreadnoughts...

/jack

I fully support this. I am not crazy about fluff but I am wild about the game. Dreads need advantages. If they are not going to be so hard to kill(AV 12 is a joke, and Ven status is super expensive) they should have awesome guns. People should fear Dreads! Give them great guns if they aren't going to be Hard to Kill!


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Melta guns are close to the tits, but you also need something else to go with that. I will now scrap my all melta gun army of 67.4 Fire Dragons.

sourclams wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:I too have been dropping meltas from my planned SM list. It's going to be quite shooty, with Drop-podding Sternguard w/ combi-plasmas, Dreads with assault cannons/DCCW, and footslogging Tactical squads. I might also run a couple of Las-Predators, because I actually don't see much LR spam at all. After all, isn't that a few hundred dollars worth of them? A few hundred dollars that could be spent on things that can kill AV14?

Besides, three S9 shots at long range isn't bad. Plasma guns are also good for killing Terminators and MCs without getting in too close.

I think the thread has drifted into a potentially dark place.

What has been shown is that taking all the melta in the world isn't going to win you the game.

But does anybody really think they're going to win in a take-all-comers setting without a substantial amount of melta or its equivalent?

The math has conclusively shown that against AV 13/14 lascannons really don't cut it. Railguns barely cut it against AV14, and only because they can ignore cover and/or crank BS up to 5. You really need the double dice and/or AP1 to get enough rolls on the vehicle damage table to put a vehicle down because glancing to death is utterly inefficient.

You can't have an effective offensive range of 6" and expect to run the gauntlet of missile launchers and autocannons. But you also can't have only las, missile launchers, plasma, and 'cannons and expect to be worth a damn against the Russes/Hammerheads pounding you across the table or the Land Raider bearing down on your fixed guns.

Did I say I had no meltas at all?

You specified dropping meltas from your SM list and then you went on to list a bunch of units without melta and an unconventional foot army with a final caveat on how 3 S9 shots isn't bad.

If you intended for there to be melta in that list, it looks to be on 3 Tactical squads slowly walking towards enemy armor.

sourclams wrote:

I think the thread has drifted into a potentially dark place.

What has been shown is that taking all the melta in the world isn't going to win you the game.

But does anybody really think they're going to win in a take-all-comers setting without a substantial amount of melta or its equivalent?

The math has conclusively shown that against AV 13/14 lascannons really don't cut it. Railguns barely cut it against AV14, and only because they can ignore cover and/or crank BS up to 5. You really need the double dice and/or AP1 to get enough rolls on the vehicle damage table to put a vehicle down because glancing to death is utterly inefficient.

You can't have an effective offensive range of 6" and expect to run the gauntlet of missile launchers and autocannons. But you also can't have only las, missile launchers, plasma, and 'cannons and expect to be worth a damn against the Russes/Hammerheads pounding you across the table or the Land Raider bearing down on your fixed guns.

In which case then, for IG, would it be a good idea to take Vets with Meltas in a Valkyrie/Vendetta and 3 Medusa Artillery Tanks?

Hear me out here (i'm new to IG)...

Use the Medusa to obliterate heavy tanks and heavy infantry, Melta Vets to take out heavy tanks, the Vendetta to take out transports and the Valkyries to mop up infantry?

radiohazard wrote:
Use the Medusa to obliterate heavy tanks and heavy infantry, Melta Vets to take out heavy tanks, the Vendetta to take out transports and the Valkyries to mop up infantry?

Are you referring to bastion-breachers? be careful, many people don't realize that when you buy bastion-breachers you give up being able to shoot a large blast. pg 53 "a Medusa armed with bastion-breacher shells always fires using the following profile." (emphasis mine) I prefer either a Demolisher (12" and 15 pts for mobility and AV14 is a good trade for me), or a Manticore (D3 S10 ordnance barrage is hell for Land Raiders, let alone all the AV14 that's not actually AV14 sides like russes and battle wagons. The average on 2d6 take the highest is just under 4.5. You're also more likely to get a 6 than 1-3 put together.

I have to say, my favorite thing about the new IG codex is the plethora of long range tank-busting. Everyone can pack in meltas, but we get so many options in the 36"+ ranges; Vendettas, Hydras, Manticores, Vanquishers (if you're into that sort of thing; not for me), even the humble heavy weapons team (with a healthy dose of bring it down at least).

Back OT: I agree that pure melta is a poor choice; once you're in melta range, most transports have done their job and are superfluous anyway.

The Defenestrator wrote:

radiohazard wrote:
Use the Medusa to obliterate heavy tanks and heavy infantry, Melta Vets to take out heavy tanks, the Vendetta to take out transports and the Valkyries to mop up infantry?

Are you referring to bastion-breachers? be careful, many people don't realize that when you buy bastion-breachers you give up being able to shoot a large blast. pg 53 "a Medusa armed with bastion-breacher shells always fires using the following profile." (emphasis mine) I prefer either a Demolisher (12" and 15 pts for mobility and AV14 is a good trade for me), or a Manticore (D3 S10 ordnance barrage is hell for Land Raiders, let alone all the AV14 that's not actually AV14 sides like russes and battle wagons. The average on 2d6 take the highest is just under 4.5. You're also more likely to get a 6 than 1-3 put together.

Well thats scuppered my plans on using Medusas

The Defenestrator wrote:Back OT: I agree that pure melta is a poor choice; once you're in melta range, most transports have done their job and are superfluous anyway.

Thats a theory I've had for a very long time. My way of thinking is to use long range AT fire, Vendetta and Hydra in case of IG and have one, possibly two units of melta vets for AV14, with all other vets with PG in a gunship of some kind.

I run a mixed marine army. 3 of the 4 tac squads have a lascannon, a melta gun, and a combi melta on the sergeant. This lets me deal with transports at range, and heavier armor up close. Sure the multi melta is 10 points cheaper, im also not stopping anyone from decent range.

radiohazard wrote:

Well thats scuppered my plans on using Medusas

It's still a great AT platform and a great gun in general. Remember that you still get 2d6 for penetration even if you scatter off the hull, so against a rhino you'd be S5+2d6/AP1; I've busted a lot of rhinos open with scattered medusa hits.

My single best shot was a Medusa hit that busted a rhino open, killed 3 plague Marines, and put a wound on a Daemon Prince.

Sorry if this has already beed stated:
But even if it deepstrikes right next to you, your all melta army is toast against a Monolith that ignores the 'melta' rule.
Also for example IG (the first list of the thread that have heavy flamers and meltas only [from Shep]) cannot do much against an eldar Avatar, since it is immune to both those weapons...

Shep wrote:This is totally accurate. You didn't even need to add your caveat at the bottom about some units being ok with the short range.

To some players, this has been obvious from the beginning, to some others they had to learn the hard way. Or they'll soon learn the hard way when they get to a populated tourney.

I've got a great example of an army that uses the 'melta is the only reliable tank kill' concept, and fails hard as a result. I am ashamed to admit I am the author of this list

IG 1750

CCS 4x melta chimera HF

vets 3x melta chimera HF
vets 3x melta chimera HF
vets 3x melta chimera HF

2x devildog HF
2x devildog HF
2x devildog HF

medusa BB
medusa BB
medusa BB

My avatar laughs at your army.

The Bloody Handed God wrote:

Shep wrote:This is totally accurate. You didn't even need to add your caveat at the bottom about some units being ok with the short range.

To some players, this has been obvious from the beginning, to some others they had to learn the hard way. Or they'll soon learn the hard way when they get to a populated tourney.

I've got a great example of an army that uses the 'melta is the only reliable tank kill' concept, and fails hard as a result. I am ashamed to admit I am the author of this list

IG 1750

CCS 4x melta chimera HF

vets 3x melta chimera HF
vets 3x melta chimera HF
vets 3x melta chimera HF

2x devildog HF
2x devildog HF
2x devildog HF

medusa BB
medusa BB
medusa BB

My avatar laughs at your army.

Don't get too cocky. I played that army for about 8 days before it was totally scrapped. I didn't face any avatars in that 8 day span either.

Please bring avatars when versing my current IG build though. I like facing models that can only move 6+D6" a turn and fire a 12" range gun.

Zid wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:Meltas are great against AV14 armor within the Melta range. The 2d6 penetration gives the melta weapon an average roll of 15 on the penetration roll, in addition to providing +1 on the damage roll.

When damaging lower armor values, this becomes less of an advantage, as the difficulty in penetrating lower armor values scales quickly. While the chances of a ML penetrating the front of a predator are 1/6, they shoot to 3/6% when hitting the front of a rhino -- tripling in effectiveness over those 2 AV.

This means that to destroy lighter vehicles -- razorbacks, rhinos, speeders, defilers, etc -- meltas are akin to using a bazooka to kill a rat. As mentioned before, the drawback with a melta is that one must get within 6" to gain the full advantage of them (or 12" with a multi-melta) possibly requiring a sacrificial unit for every attempt at vehicle destruction.
Against these targets, longer range weapons such as MC and LC are better options, as they can neutralize the threat at longer range and less risk.

The logical question is "How many AV 14 vehicles do I see in a game?" That is dependent on your FLGS and/or the tournaments you play in. In the gaming groups I play in, that number is less than 1, and noone at my FLGS plays LR spam.

Therefore a smart general will consider the answer to the last question and use that to base the melta ratio they should use in their army.

Meltas are also good at downing MC's and killing off things like terminators, HQ's, etc.

I like plasma guns and cannons much better for hitting MCs and terminators. You get a higher rate of fire or a blast marker.

augustus5 wrote:I like plasma guns and cannons much better for hitting MCs and terminators. You get a higher rate of fire or a blast marker.

Agreed. This was discussed ad nauseam in a topic recently called something like "Melta or Plasma".

Shep wrote:

Don't get too cocky. I played that army for about 8 days before it was totally scrapped. I didn't face any avatars in that 8 day span either.

Please bring avatars when versing my current IG build though. I like facing models that can only move 6+D6" a turn and fire a 12" range gun.

You do realize I was talking about all the flamer and melta? Wich do diddly squat against the avatar.

I am aware of the avatars rules. I am also aware of my posted lists insane number of melta and flamer. That list I posted sucks and failed miserably for me. I posted it as an example of what NOT to do in 40k 5th edition.

When you mentioned your avatar I thought we started playing the "I can beat your list with this list" game. Avatars won't make it across midfield against my hydra and plasma veteran based ig army, fortune or no fortune.

Night Lords wrote:You cant look at the SWs book's troops in isolation. They seem to have to dedicate a ton of points into HQs, and lack a few units Chaos has access to.

Considering SW can go cheap on the hq slot and take one for 70pts and several useful ones for 100pts, I am going to disagree with the 'dedicate a ton of points into HQs'.

augustus5 wrote:

Zid wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:Meltas are great against AV14 armor within the Melta range. The 2d6 penetration gives the melta weapon an average roll of 15 on the penetration roll, in addition to providing +1 on the damage roll.

When damaging lower armor values, this becomes less of an advantage, as the difficulty in penetrating lower armor values scales quickly. While the chances of a ML penetrating the front of a predator are 1/6, they shoot to 3/6% when hitting the front of a rhino -- tripling in effectiveness over those 2 AV.

This means that to destroy lighter vehicles -- razorbacks, rhinos, speeders, defilers, etc -- meltas are akin to using a bazooka to kill a rat. As mentioned before, the drawback with a melta is that one must get within 6" to gain the full advantage of them (or 12" with a multi-melta) possibly requiring a sacrificial unit for every attempt at vehicle destruction.
Against these targets, longer range weapons such as MC and LC are better options, as they can neutralize the threat at longer range and less risk.

The logical question is "How many AV 14 vehicles do I see in a game?" That is dependent on your FLGS and/or the tournaments you play in. In the gaming groups I play in, that number is less than 1, and noone at my FLGS plays LR spam.

Therefore a smart general will consider the answer to the last question and use that to base the melta ratio they should use in their army.

Meltas are also good at downing MC's and killing off things like terminators, HQ's, etc.

I like plasma guns and cannons much better for hitting MCs and terminators. You get a higher rate of fire or a blast marker.

Aye I will agree, just saying meltas don't JUST have to down tanks. I run Plague Marines w/ plasmas always, its great for mowing down nids MCs or MEQ's (because I rarely lose one to GH )

Nurglitch wrote:It's nice to see people are coming around to the notion that successful armies need flexibility, which is hard to do in an environment chock full of armies based on redundancy (aka "spam").

Yeah, you know what they should do? Introduce some sort of objective score into tournaments that rewards flexible army lists and discourages spam..........hmmm......







(Sorry. Sorry. SORRY. Sorrry)

ArbitorIan wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:It's nice to see people are coming around to the notion that successful armies need flexibility, which is hard to do in an environment chock full of armies based on redundancy (aka "spam").

Yeah, you know what they should do? Introduce some sort of objective score into tournaments that rewards flexible army lists and discourages spam..........hmmm......







(Sorry. Sorry. SORRY. Sorrry)

There is such a score, though it's not entirely objective. It's called "battle points."

While the basis of this thread is sound, im going to have to disagree about a melta flamer spamimg vet/chimera list fails. Said list replacing the medusas for hydras and adding in banewolfs with chem cannons in actually does very very well.

Vs an army that has a lot of long range firepower, you have 2 turns tops before 5 chimeras and 3 banewolfs crashs your line. First turn I should have some cover blocking some of my tanks and 2nd turn I pop smokes and 3rd turn im stuck in and its game over 9 times out of 10. The problem is, if you actually have enough anti tank to take down 11 tanks in 1500 then you are lacking in alot of other areas and most armies like to be balanced and thats the kind of list this army is made to kill.

I also have 3 hydras to take down skimmers and stun av 13, or anything else comming toward me.

Anyways im not saying your strat is not sound, because it is in some cases. Hell I had a mix between mech and ranged with my sms and I raped in 4th ed, and now I run a balanced ork list that does very very well.

What I am saying is a chimera spam list that is built right in the 1500-1850 points range is one of, if not the hardest list to beat in a competitive setting.

Krootman wrote:While the basis of this thread is sound, im going to have to disagree about a melta flamer spamimg vet/chimera list fails. Said list replacing the medusas for hydras and adding in banewolfs with chem cannons in actually does very very well.

Vs an army that has a lot of long range firepower, you have 2 turns tops before 5 chimeras and 3 banewolfs crashs your line. First turn I should have some cover blocking some of my tanks and 2nd turn I pop smokes and 3rd turn im stuck in and its game over 9 times out of 10. The problem is, if you actually have enough anti tank to take down 11 tanks in 1500 then you are lacking in alot of other areas and most armies like to be balanced and thats the kind of list this army is made to kill.

I also have 3 hydras to take down skimmers and stun av 13, or anything else comming toward me.

Anyways im not saying your strat is not sound, because it is in some cases. Hell I had a mix between mech and ranged with my sms and I raped in 4th ed, and now I run a balanced ork list that does very very well.

What I am saying is a chimera spam list that is built right in the 1500-1850 points range is one of, if not the hardest list to beat in a competitive setting.

Cool. But a good component of what you've changed to make the list more viable is a gun that is diametrically opposed to melta, Hydras are unbelievably awesome. But they are long range, without a lot of punching power. By bringing in essentially the anti-melta, you have strengthened the list. Which is exactly what we are talking about.

The melta myth is that the melta is the only gun you'd ever need.

The melta truth is that it's still the best gun available for armies that can spam it.

The great thing about meltas, as has already been noted here, is that they are the most sure-fire method of knocking out high AV vehicles. Against low AV vehicles and MCs, meltas are over-kill, and weapons such as lascannons and plasmaguns should suffice. There is then the disadvantage of having to get to spitting distance of an opponent to use the meltagun - ergo, spam / redundancy. Points cost is not a factor as lascannons, MLs, plasmaguns and meltaguns all cost about the same, varying slightly from Codex to Codex. So we are talking about a balancing act between Strength and Distance.


I think the debate here is about lists that spam meltas at the exclusion of all other high-Strength shooting weapons and how to have a proper balance of weaponry in your force. I run a 1750 point mechanized Sisters of Battle that includes 2 Exorcists (d6 Strength 8 AP1 shots, 48") and about 12 meltaguns. Sorry, Sisters don't get to take plasmaguns, MLs or lascannons, but that is due to their belief in the Holy Trinity of bolters-flamers-meltas (and the age of the Codex!!). However, many players call my list spam when they see the number of meltaguns I have, then when they see what the Exorcist guns can do, they call IT broken. I was using this list back in 4e.

I digress...having 12 meltaguns in a list is probably over-kill in a force, but how could someone ever say what the correct ratio of weapons is in any force? Take 2 plasmaguns for every meltagun, 3.5 autocannons for every Multi-melta, etc... Or in a vanilla SMurf list you should take blah blah blah... Every list is tailored differently and every player has their preferred way of taking battle to their opponent. Spam, cheese, whatever,....it's the way they play. Sisters have to get up-close and personal to an enemy, so meltaguns make sense anyway. I take Exorcists just to vary it up a little, though their ranged firepower against light AV vehicles and MCs is good.

Those who take meltas exclusively are denying themselves some flexibility, but perhaps they have a rock-scissors strategy, in which case they will get shut down when some one brings rock-paper.

:error:

ph34r wrote:The vanquisher is great except for the part where it isn't AP1, costs way too much, and when shooting from long range will likely be firing through cover.

You forgot missing entirely 50% of the time.

My guard use a 2:1 ratio for melta:plasma, with flamers being reserved for PCSs and demo SWSs

Huh, didn't see this coming.

Weird, my bad. I got linked to the thread from another post and didn't notice the date. Feel free to disregard.

Lol i just noticed the date... it's a good thread!

Threadcromancy! Just made it!

Threadomancy, +1, etc.

The melta myth is timeless

Re-reading the last page of the thread I thought it might be something to mention that the correct number of Melta Guns in a list depends on the number of Melta Guns each unit in the list can take, and the number of those units you take in your army.

An army with eight Melta Guns in a single unit, for example, will be less effective than one with four each in two units. An army with two each in four units, likewise, will do better than an army with one in each of eight units.

Essentially you have to spread the Melta Guns throughout your army about 3-4 per unit to gain the maximum offensive power (maximum number of targets you can engage with maximum reliability) while ensuring your Melta Gun carrying units are numerous enough that they can't be knocked out early in the game.

Nurglitch wrote:Re-reading the last page of the thread I thought it might be something to mention that the correct number of Melta Guns in a list depends on the number of Melta Guns each unit in the list can take, and the number of those units you take in your army.

An army with eight Melta Guns in a single unit, for example, will be less effective than one with four each in two units. An army with two each in four units, likewise, will do better than an army with one in each of eight units.

Essentially you have to spread the Melta Guns throughout your army about 3-4 per unit to gain the maximum offensive power (maximum number of targets you can engage with maximum reliability) while ensuring your Melta Gun carrying units are numerous enough that they can't be knocked out early in the game.

Eldar fire dragons are a good example. 8 meltas in 1 unit.

Let me go against the grain here. I have started moving more and more towards melta weaponry with my IG. I used to field lots of lascannons and a pasquisher as my anti-tank. The vanquisher always performs nicely but I was very disappointed in performance of lascannons for killing anything rhinos included. I have since moved more towards a mech melta list (I know I am original) but their performance has been stellar. I then take executioners as my heavy support and whole armies get swallowed in a swathe of melta and plasma death. Horde, mech, melta/plasma cannon combo is effective against everything

Volkov wrote:Let me go against the grain here. I have started moving more and more towards melta weaponry with my IG. I used to field lots of lascannons and a pasquisher as my anti-tank. The vanquisher always performs nicely but I was very disappointed in performance of lascannons for killing anything rhinos included. I have since moved more towards a mech melta list (I know I am original) but their performance has been stellar. I then take executioners as my heavy support and whole armies get swallowed in a swathe of melta and plasma death. Horde, mech, melta/plasma cannon combo is effective against everything

Have you tried using autocannons instead of lascannons for ranged support? Autocannons do significantly better than lascannons against Rhinos and the like.

Have you tried using autocannons instead of lascannons for ranged support? Autocannons do significantly better than lascannons against Rhinos and the like.

Indeed I have. I have been giving my melta vet squads autocannons as well. if they have no AV14 I blast with the autocannons, if they do have av14 then I rush forward in the name of the emperor! Basically my current army approach revolves around my executioners. My opponents have gone so far as to dub the executioner the nob bikers of the vehicle world. I also take a battery of basilisks for anyone thinking they can hide from me.

I think imperial guard can get away with every trooper capable of carrying a melta gun to take one because the day is still going to be carried by the heavy support. Space marines can't say that, so its up to the basic marines to kill basically everything, and taking too many melta guns hinders your ability to do that

This is really good thread to read!

And My 2 IG vet have full-melta....

as a chaos player, melta spam in the marines is one of the only ways to go. Saying that though, chaos have such a good heavy support section, defilers, oblits, raiders, havocs etc. that usually the meltas arn't alone. In my list at 1000pts I run two oblitorators a unit of plauges with plasma, unit of vanilla with melta, and khorne with none. all with power fisting champions. Good mix, and confuses enemies to target prioritize. Hmm should i shoot at the unit that will munch me in CC or the one that will fry me with plasma or the large unit with powerfist...Bzz,munch,crunch. Problem solved, no decision.

I think someone should read this thread to Fuegan. I don't think he'd be impressed.

Fetterkey, how do you deal with those heavy transports (land raiders and battle wagons) if the only long range support you have are autocannons?

Distortionist wrote:Fetterkey, how do you deal with those heavy transports (land raiders and battle wagons) if the only long range support you have are autocannons?

Don't be dense. He said try using autocannons. He didn't say: 'use utterly nothing except autocannons, without any support what so ever; no weapons stronger than S7, and nothing that rolls more than 1D6 for pen, as anything else is for noobs.'

And battlewagons still have side-AV 12.