I don't actually hate the Dark Eldar, they're my favorite army, but I'm seeing a lot of anti-DE hate on the forums whenever we talk about wanting a new codex. I'm trying to find out why.

PLEASE no flaming . Just trying to understand people.

I love them! i would like some better looking models though.

Under a good player, they are devastating :O

I hate them because in over 12 years of playing warhammer I have never played a game against them.

What are these 'duckuldar' of which you speak? I have never encountered that race on the field of battle.

My friend used to play them and used to do really well too.

Never played against his army though.

I am rather indifferent to them. At the moment, their models and fluff does not really grab me as much as those of other armies, so I don't think about them too much

Why can't I just "like" them?

Love is too strong a descriptor for my feelings.

kuro_khan wrote:I don't actually hate the Dark Eldar, they're my favorite army, but I'm seeing a lot of anti-DE hate on the forums whenever we talk about wanting a new codex. I'm trying to find out why.

PLEASE no flaming . Just trying to understand people.

I like them, would play them if I could get ahold of some models, and think that they (and other 3rd Edition Codexes), should all be updated BEFORE anything else... (sorry Tyranids, IG, Vanilla Marines, and Chaos...)

I'm indifferent.

Though I think the game is better with them than without them.

I just don't like most of the models.

It's not that I hate them, I actually like what their force looks like (tons of skimmers with lances! Air Force!) but their models are a big meh.

I guess I'm indiffrent, though I may try something foolish someday.

I think its more been an argument of who deserves a new codex first, is where all the hate has been coming from.

Personally, I love the DE, but, as always, its just my opinion.

I don't know how to feel about them... i look at them and am confused by some of the strange new feelings i experience.

Fluffwise, they should have either been the cool Eldar Corsairs concept from Rogue Trader (complete with 80s hair) or straight out Chaos Eldar.

The current incarnation seems really badly done, and the concept could have been executed so much better.

Also, Eldar originally were all the High, Dark and Wood Elf concepts rolled into one, and they were cool like that (Howling Banshees were virtually Witch Elves in power armour when they were first introduced in 1st edition).

I don't dislike them strongly, but they seem to be a victim of bad decision making from the start.

I think many of their weapons are a bit overpowered. 100 point sniper squads are crazy good.

3 plasma cannon (basically) fast vehicles for heavy support are crazy good.

they were basically made to kill marines.....

I really love the codex and the fluff for the DE.

I would certainly collect them if they had better models.

I'm indifferent. If they got squatted, I wouldn't really care all that much. The only thing I fear is that if such a thing happens, there will be a veritable poopstorm from former DE players.

If they released new stuff, I'd be happy since there are undoubtedly people who've been playing them for more than a decade with the same ugly models. New toys for everyone!

They're a good army and have a unique play style and backstory and fit well with the 40k universe. Their plastics are passable, they still really do need to be updated but please paint some pants on the bikers. It's the metal models that make the rest of them look awful, except the retinue guys whatever they're called.

I do like their backstory and style on the tabletop; in fact I used to collect them, only giving them up about a fortnight ago for their craftworld kin. It'd be a great shame if they did go the same way as the Squats, though. I think the main (only?) problem I have with them is the models. There's retro, and then there's they-need-new-sculpts-now ;-)

If I knew for a fact that we'd get Admech and Chaos LatD in their place as new GEQs, I'd gladly see DE as the sacrificial lamb.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I knew for a fact that we'd get Admech and Chaos LatD in their place as new GEQs, I'd gladly see DE as the sacrificial lamb.

I'd love to see LatD come back, and a dedicated AdMech list, as well as Dark Eldar sticking around.
---Of course, I only advocate the creation of lists/armies for 5th Edition *after* all codexes have been updated to 5th.

I hate their fluff and models. If they were gone tomorrow I would not mourn their passing.

I think their fluff is pretty meh, and they're possibly the most insignificant playable army in the game. I think the models are ugly as sin. As far as getting a new codex goes, I'm pretty indifferent. I'd hate for some players' armies to be squatted, but I'm not sure if there are enough players left to really merit a codex. I've only ever seen a real Dark Eldar army once in the past two years (I say real because my bro is dabbling with them, but he's had two Raiders and a Raider plus squad box sitting in shrinkwrap on his desk for several months now).

I've been wanting to see a Dark Eldar codex for years but nothing happens and I don't even PLAY DE.

I'm at the point now that GW should just squat em. There's no support for them, no new models, nothing. Squat them already. I like my idea of the Webway surrounding Comorragghhhhh collapses, sealing them from the galaxy.

There. Easy, wasn't it? Same thing like the Squats being eaten by a Tyranid fleet.

I've never seen them, but I only started playing in July, so I guess thats a good reason. But I'm starting a DE army soon, I'm waiting for them in the mail still

I don't see anything wrong with them, their Codex is old, but it still kicks ass, so the codex isn't bad, when they make a new one, they should update some of the rules, put more fluff in, but keep their stats as they are. Models aren't great, but they're not THAT bad. I wouldn't mind if they got updated alittle.

If GW doesn't want to redo DE, they shouldn't Squat them, they can just bring out a modified version of their current codex, fixing instances of rules that no longer exist.

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:
If GW doesn't want to redo DE, they shouldn't Squat them, they can just bring out a modified version of their current codex, fixing instances of rules that no longer exist.

They've had about 8 million tweaks, changes, updates, etc... over time.
Compiling them all is a bit of work, but at the same time is quite worth it.

Dark Eldar were my first army,so I guess I have a "soft spot" for them.
Even though I no longer have that army,or any real interest in rebuilding another,I would honestly hate to see DE get "squated",simply becuase I don't want to see yet another group of gamers,who have invested much time and money get shafted by GW.

They're old, and I hate that they haven't had an update.

I like the dark eldar alot.. personally Id love to see the Inquistior armies squatted cause they are lame to me.

Grey Knights.. wow super space marines..

Deathwatch haha no codex

Sisters, power armor with tits.. lol.

Although for admech Id squat the whole eldar race and the above mentioned ][ armies.

I'd like people to defend their choice of:
"I don't like the idea of Drow in space (despite the presence of Orks, Elves, Zombies, Ogres, etc...)"

Why can Orcs (Orks), Elves (Eldar), Zombies (Necrons), Ogres (Ogryn), Kobolds (sorta ratlings), and (reaching here) Tarraques (Carnifexs) have a place in the grim dark 40k universe, but no dark elves?

Tarraques???

(BTW, Ogryn and ratlings are minimalised to say the least)

@kuro: the reason the other races exist in 40k is because they they've been developed starting in RT (Eldar, Nids & Orks; Ogryns & Ratlings), or 2E (Necrons).

That said, you're conveniently forgetting that Dorfs in Space along with Slann in space got canned going from 2E to 3E, along with many other whatnots getting lost over the years - Beastmen regiments, human bombs, IG Jetbikes, SM jetbikes, Zoats, Ambulls, Jokaero, etc. and then Fimir, etc. on the WFB side.
____

Oh, yeah, Nids ~Lizardmen, Ratlings ~Hobbits/Halflings...

So the reason Dark Eldar is being attacked is because they're relatively new? So if DE were around from the beginning, there wouldn't be a problem with "drow in space"? I don't agree. Tau are newer than DE, but even they have more respect.
Why is it ok to make an entirely new race of fish people, but dark elves (which at least have a fantasy correllary) are seen as wrong?

Actually for relations to fantasy I keep looking at empire steem tanks and thinking about hammerheads

But Dark Eldar have a fantasy version. The fact that they did not have a 40K version probably bugged someone at GW. Dwarfs in space might even come back (And did come back in BFG, not as squats though, something entirely diffrent)

and what the hell is a Jokaero, all I came up with when I googled it was some random website.

Jokaero are these peaceful orangoutangs who have an innate ability to make technological whatnots without any concious thought or effort. Throw them in a room with tech, and they can make a plasma cannon into a finger ring and power field generator that fits in the palm of one's hand. The problem is that it's not controllable, and they don't want to be bothered. So, behaviorally, they're like pandas, except that, if you put them in a zoo to make stuff, they'll likely blast their way out and go home.

Firstly, for those who said they're a weak tabletop army, I'll play you =P
The only grudges i have against dark eldar is that
1. most of the models are just so old, and unattractive. I converted a lot of my army from Dark Elf models...

2. The codex is so old! I'm not going to defend those that say 'Codex creep Lost me (or won me) that game!' , i do decently, but not Over / Under powered. it just needs an update.

Secondly, The fluff wouldn't be that weak if there was actually a decent volume of it.. there's a good ammount of bad fluff for every other race, it's just that the output ammount of Dark Eldar fluff is about 10% (or less) than for other races, so there aren't great experienced writers doing our fluff..

kuro_khan wrote:dark elves?

I love the Dark Eldar. Except when I have to play them.

I have never played against Dark Eldar. Nor have I even looked at their codex. I only know what fluff was about in the Rogue Trader days (I then took a 2 edition hiatus, returning to the game for fourth ed.) I am fairly ambivalent about the fluff/models. They look alright from what I've seen. Dated, sure.

I don't really hate the Dark Eldar, but the Dark Eldar players...that might be a bit of a different story. I hear all their complaints about needing a new codex, but I don't ever hear a great reason why they should be given one.

Okay, oldest codex. How is that fact causing a DE player from losing games?

Ugly/expensive/outdated models. Other armies have their ugly models. Anyone play against Valhallans or Tallarn recently? They could use a new model or two.

For me, it's about how the army fares in games. The one solid report I have about the DE comes from a group that some friends of mine in Southern Oregon play in. A woman with a DE army shows up at every tourney and wins down there. Now, this could be just due to a female being able to school a bunch of wargamers any day of the week from their lack of experience dealing with females socially. Or, it could just be that, even old, with a bunch of ugly, outdated models; that DE are still competitive.

Dark Eldar are competitive. They need a new codex to update their rules-it's kind of hard to read/interpret for 5th edition, and they've got a bunch of now meaningless rules and wargear- but there's nothing at all wrong with them from a competitive standpoint.

They definitly urgently need a new codex with more fluff and better looking models.
I think people don't play DE because most people don't know/understand the fluf behind them (example: ME). And their units seems less colorful.. I don't know how I can put it but their units are not charming like the other races.

People keep saying DE are competive, but every race is competitive. However, how many races have to restrict themselves to 4 units in order to be so? Archon(Dracon) w/ retinue, Wyches, Warriors and Ravagers are basically the only useful units in the entire codex. The other stuff can be used, but it's just not to the same caliber as the other stuff, similiar to Tau Vespids, Chaos Possessed and Necron Flayed Ones.
Also, if DE are so competitve, why are there so few players? People gravitate towards effective armies, especially if you can win easily with them. You don't need as much strategy to win with Space Marines/Chaos as with DE, so DE players basically need to be better strategicians (is this a word?) for the same result. Maybe a new codex that allows casual people to win with DE could help us out.

I love DE.
They were one of my first armies and I played several tourneys with them in the 3rd and 4th ed.
Now they hit the shelf but I'm toying with the idea to bring them back to the battle field.

I love the Dark Eldar, I think there currently underpowered due to old codex = no good options
When (if?) there new codex comes out, I intend to start an army

P.S. Eldar aren't elves.

Brother-Pie wrote:P.S. Eldar aren't elves.

Yes they are denial is not just a river.

The name Eldar came from the Tolkins work as a type of Elf. IIRC it translates in to 'Starborn' or somthing like that.

If their not Elves, Squats arn't Dwarves!

Weren't they called Space Elves at some point?

I think they may have been. I know Orks were once Space orks and Squats Were space Dwarfs (or you could buy kits labled as such)

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I knew for a fact that we'd get Admech and Chaos LatD in their place as new GEQs, I'd gladly see DE as the sacrificial lamb.

YEA! Cause thats what we need in 40k! MORE CHAOS AND IMPERIUM stuff


I love the DE. I want them to get a redo so badly. I think the fluff is good (tho it does need a bit of an update) Really its the minis that are so bad. Also a main reason people dont play them, is I havnt seen a DE model in a hobby store in YEARs. And people are affraid to buy an army that could get dumped. Tho with all the rumors and that picture floating around, I know they are getting done. Just a question of when GW graces us with their presence

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I knew for a fact that we'd get Admech and Chaos LatD in their place as new GEQs, I'd gladly see DE as the sacrificial lamb.

The sad thing is that the only reason all three don't get attention is simply an unwillingness to put in the time and effort required on the part of GW.

Its like what happened to Squats. I seem to remember something being said that the reason they were discontinued was because there was nobody working at GW that wanted to work on the army. Customer demand, apparently, being immaterial when compared to employee desire....

Wall of text powers, activate! Form of a long-winded rant! Shape of a lurker!

...

Ahem. Sorry about that--I'm in an odd mood. To be honest, I don't see the point in the Dark Eldar. I don't understand how their society continues to function under what seems to be a glut of hedonism, sadism, and murder for fun and profit. They're like every other Dark Elf force ever imagined--completely illogical and rather silly. Plus, there's something about them that seems to attract the "vampire" crowd (and yes, the quotation marks are very, very intentional). So they raid and rape and pillage and torture and all that because there's an evil god draining their souls, which I guess makes them attractive to both goths and emos. Random aside: is there really a difference between goths and emos? I mean, they both look the same, they both have crap taste in music, and they both are rather depressing to be around, a bit like the elderly mad.

Then there's the models. Look, I know they're old and they're dated and there's an update coming around. That said, I happen to be an adult male with a decent job and a fiancee and all that stuff that makes you feel like you're a grown up, aside from a kid (thank the Powers that May or May Not Be). It's bad enough that I play with little green men, but if we change those little green men for little S&M fetishists, then that just adds a whole new level of creepiness. I mean, my soon-to-be inlaws come over for dinner on occasion and I have models out constantly. Orks are fine--yeah, it's goofy and childish, but then again, so am I. Dark Eldar, on the other hand, just wouldn't be kosher. I mean, imagine explaining that to a group of WASPs.

The Witches are bad enough, although they just push the envelope. Then you have the Hellraiser-inspired Grotesques and the like, and finally, you run into Cruellagh. Imagine you're a suspect on an episode of SVU and Mariska Hargitay, while searching your house, comes across your Dark Eldar army. Your guilt would be proven even faster than if you asked for a lawyer, I'd bet, and even if you weren't the actual Criminal of the Week, they'd probably still bust you for kiddie porn or something like that.

If you're at the FLGS and you're playing against a kid, mom in tow and everything, do you really want to have the pierced-and-inked bondage fairies out for everyone to see? I mean, I know, they're not that bad, but they're still bad, and it still says something about one's character to even possess an army like that, let alone whipping it out for everyone to see. It's like having a force of those Diaznettes that all the fanboys drool over--sure, they may be pretty models, but at the end of the day you're the geek playing with topless models. What you do in the comfort of your own home is your own business, I suppose, but there's a reason why public indecency is a crime.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me look askance at those who play them. Moving on.

So, thus far we've hit the improbable (and cartoonishly ridiculous) background of the DE, such as it is, and the whole "bondage" thing. Can I then go on to say that I think that glass cannons don't work in any games? Either they're way too fragile and thus ineffective or their punch is so strong that there's nothing left to hit back. Far too often, the glass cannon becomes the lightning bruiser, and that just doesn't make for good gaming.

I'll wrap things up with one last point. The Dark Eldar are not described as one of the "big players" in the 40k universe (of course, neither are the Tau, but I dislike them as well). It seems to me that it would make far more sense to focus on the movers and shakers of the universe and push the bit players back as needed. Hell, we're still needing a Rebel/Cultist list, if you ask me.

Armandloft wrote:

I don't really hate the Dark Eldar, but the Dark Eldar players...that might be a bit of a different story. I hear all their complaints about needing a new codex, but I don't ever hear a great reason why they should be given one.

The Dark Eldar rule that every unit that is run down in a Sweeping Advance counts as a "Victory Point", aka instead of being killed it is captured and taken as a slave! Used to be a pretty sweet rule unit...Victory Points don't exist anymore!

KingCracker wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I knew for a fact that we'd get Admech and Chaos LatD in their place as new GEQs, I'd gladly see DE as the sacrificial lamb.

YEA! Cause thats what we need in 40k! MORE CHAOS AND IMPERIUM stuff

If they're not Chaos / Imperial MEQs, then heck yeah, we need them!

Saldiven wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I knew for a fact that we'd get Admech and Chaos LatD in their place as new GEQs, I'd gladly see DE as the sacrificial lamb.

The sad thing is that the only reason all three don't get attention is simply an unwillingness to put in the time and effort required on the part of GW.

Customer demand, apparently, being immaterial when compared to employee desire....

Customer demand measured as sales, or non-monetary wishlists?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Customer demand measured as sales, or non-monetary wishlists?

both. If DE would get some half decent models, we would see an increase in sales. Isn't that what happened to Orks? Hell, isn't that what happened to SW?

And if DE would get a turn in the spotlight, people would consider actually making those wishlists a reality...

I love them because they have gotten me loads of free gak (from tournaments) this year!

All Hail the True Kindred!....and Free gak!

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:Wall of text powers, activate! Form of a long-winded rant! Shape of a lurker!

...

Ahem. Sorry about that--I'm in an odd mood. To be honest, I don't see the point in the Dark Eldar. I don't understand how their society continues to function under what seems to be a glut of hedonism, sadism, and murder for fun and profit. They're like every other Dark Elf force ever imagined--completely illogical and rather silly. Plus, there's something about them that seems to attract the "vampire" crowd (and yes, the quotation marks are very, very intentional). So they raid and rape and pillage and torture and all that because there's an evil god draining their souls, which I guess makes them attractive to both goths and emos. Random aside: is there really a difference between goths and emos? I mean, they both look the same, they both have crap taste in music, and they both are rather depressing to be around, a bit like the elderly mad.

Then there's the models. Look, I know they're old and they're dated and there's an update coming around. That said, I happen to be an adult male with a decent job and a fiancee and all that stuff that makes you feel like you're a grown up, aside from a kid (thank the Powers that May or May Not Be). It's bad enough that I play with little green men, but if we change those little green men for little S&M fetishists, then that just adds a whole new level of creepiness. I mean, my soon-to-be inlaws come over for dinner on occasion and I have models out constantly. Orks are fine--yeah, it's goofy and childish, but then again, so am I. Dark Eldar, on the other hand, just wouldn't be kosher. I mean, imagine explaining that to a group of WASPs.

The Witches are bad enough, although they just push the envelope. Then you have the Hellraiser-inspired Grotesques and the like, and finally, you run into Cruellagh. Imagine you're a suspect on an episode of SVU and Mariska Hargitay, while searching your house, comes across your Dark Eldar army. Your guilt would be proven even faster than if you asked for a lawyer, I'd bet, and even if you weren't the actual Criminal of the Week, they'd probably still bust you for kiddie porn or something like that.

If you're at the FLGS and you're playing against a kid, mom in tow and everything, do you really want to have the pierced-and-inked bondage fairies out for everyone to see? I mean, I know, they're not that bad, but they're still bad, and it still says something about one's character to even possess an army like that, let alone whipping it out for everyone to see. It's like having a force of those Diaznettes that all the fanboys drool over--sure, they may be pretty models, but at the end of the day you're the geek playing with topless models. What you do in the comfort of your own home is your own business, I suppose, but there's a reason why public indecency is a crime.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me look askance at those who play them. Moving on.

So, thus far we've hit the improbable (and cartoonishly ridiculous) background of the DE, such as it is, and the whole "bondage" thing. Can I then go on to say that I think that glass cannons don't work in any games? Either they're way too fragile and thus ineffective or their punch is so strong that there's nothing left to hit back. Far too often, the glass cannon becomes the lightning bruiser, and that just doesn't make for good gaming.

I'll wrap things up with one last point. The Dark Eldar are not described as one of the "big players" in the 40k universe (of course, neither are the Tau, but I dislike them as well). It seems to me that it would make far more sense to focus on the movers and shakers of the universe and push the bit players back as needed. Hell, we're still needing a Rebel/Cultist list, if you ask me.

There is so much I could say to debate with this post, I can't be bothered. I'll just make a few points:-

-You clearly have no idea as to what the Dark Eldar fluff actually is. Games Workshop has never done the convenience of publishing it all in one big easy to read digest, it's scattered across many sources, but it's damn interesting, and actually nothing like that.
-Labelling the wyches as bondage models when they're actually gladiators is interesting. No-one ever said they were into bondage. In no source, anywhere, is that even implied. You just came up with that one on your own. So before you start 'looking in askance', I sugggest you look somewhere closer to home.
-The Dark Eldar may not be a massive force currently, but according to the fluff, they've been multiplying in the webway, and are actually the direct descendants of the orginal Eldar race, as opposed to the Craftworld Eldar, who were radicals that 'jumped ship' along with the exodites. In this respect, they actually have a larger place in the fluff then regular Eldar. They also possibly outnumber them as well, so we should remove the entire Eldar race altogether according to your logic.

If you want to know more about the Dark Eldar background, then feel free to PM me, and I'll write up a user friendly summary taken from dozens of sources combined for you. You'll find that they do more than ' raid and rape and pillage and torture and all that because there's an evil god draining their souls'.

Ketara wrote:There is so much I could say to debate with this post, I can't be bothered. I'll just make a few points:-

Thanks. I should have been more clear--it doesn't matter what the "actuality" behind the Dark Eldar is. I'm arguing based on the "perception."

Ketara wrote:-You clearly have no idea as to what the Dark Eldar fluff actually is. Games Workshop has never done the convenience of publishing it all in one big easy to read digest, it's scattered across many sources, but it's damn interesting, and actually nothing like that.

Actually, I happen to have read everything that was published by a respectable source about the Dark Eldar (I don't really care for the BL stuff that tries to paint every group of them as some sort of Slaanesh worshippers, go figure, and I discount anything written by CS Goto). While there's plenty that can be said about the Dark Eldar being fairly complex and wonderful and so forth and so on, it really boils down to "we torture and rape and kill and do whatever we like because we're EVIL." And that's just sad, really.

Ketara wrote:-Labelling the wyches as bondage models when they're actually gladiators is interesting. No-one ever said they were into bondage. In no source, anywhere, is that even implied. You just came up with that one on your own. So before you start 'looking in askance', I sugggest you look somewhere closer to home.

Actually, I'm quoting several mothers on the Wyches. Yes, I realize where the theme is intended to come from. My point is that, from the perspective of a casual outsider, that theme fails horrendously. There are more obvious choices for bondage-inspired 40k models, for sure, but we're not talking about Sisters of Battle or the Inquisition in general right now, are we?

Ketara wrote:-The Dark Eldar may not be a massive force currently, but according to the fluff, they've been multiplying in the webway, and are actually the direct descendants of the orginal Eldar race, as opposed to the Craftworld Eldar, who were radicals that 'jumped ship' along with the exodites. In this respect, they actually have a larger place in the fluff then regular Eldar. They also possibly outnumber them as well, so we should remove the entire Eldar race altogether according to your logic.

The difference there is that, while there may be more Dark Eldar than Eldar, the Eldar actually do something. Dark Eldar raid and pillage and blah blah blah, but don't really shape the 40k universe the way that their Craftworld cousins do.

Basically, it boils down to this: Dark Eldar have massive problems portraying any sort of viable society, come off as cartoonish villains except when they're looking rather "adult" for what's arguably a kid-friendly game, and fit the archetype most likely to cause game balance issues. I'm sure a new Codex could potentially solve all of the above, but that doesn't stop me from wishing that GW would spend their time and effort on a different Codex altogether.

Your opinion, of course, will differ, but that's because you see uniqueness and awesomeness where I see the same tired cliches.

I'm indifferent about them, but if new models were released I would probably buy in. To me they're the Dogs of War for Fantasy. Yeah there is some interesting things, but a majority of it is crap.

Fair enough. I could try and sway you, but I don't know if it'd work or be worth the effort, so we'll just agree to disagree, and leave things there.

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:there's something about them that seems to attract the "vampire" crowd (and yes, the quotation marks are very, very intentional). So they raid and rape and pillage and torture and all that because there's an evil god draining their souls, which I guess makes them attractive to both goths and emos. Random aside: is there really a difference between goths and emos? I mean, they both look the same, they both have crap taste in music, and they both are rather depressing to be around, a bit like the elderly mad.

Then there's the models. Look, I know they're old and they're dated and there's an update coming around. That said, I happen to be an adult male with a decent job and a fiancee and all that stuff that makes you feel like you're a grown up, aside from a kid (thank the Powers that May or May Not Be). It's bad enough that I play with little green men, but if we change those little green men for little S&M fetishists, then that just adds a whole new level of creepiness. I mean, my soon-to-be inlaws come over for dinner on occasion and I have models out constantly. Orks are fine--yeah, it's goofy and childish, but then again, so am I. Dark Eldar, on the other hand, just wouldn't be kosher. I mean, imagine explaining that to a group of WASPs.

The Witches are bad enough, although they just push the envelope. Then you have the Hellraiser-inspired Grotesques and the like, and finally, you run into Cruellagh. Imagine you're a suspect on an episode of SVU and Mariska Hargitay, while searching your house, comes across your Dark Eldar army. Your guilt would be proven even faster than if you asked for a lawyer, I'd bet, and even if you weren't the actual Criminal of the Week, they'd probably still bust you for kiddie porn or something like that.

Umm... I think this comes very close to Trolling

Better get him back under the bridge then.

I'm indifferent to the army.
I loathe most of the current models.
With new models (suitably eldar-looking ones. Praise be to the mighty Jes) they might attract me.

@Barkdreg tl;dr: Goths and Emos are NOT the same. There is a difference of about 20 years between them. There are similarities - but that's what happens when a 'fringe' culture goes 'mainstream', you get bleed through.
- I was a goth, when younger and not so long-in-the-tooth (there, threw in a 'vampire' reference as well).

I don't hate them, but I am not too fond of them.

I have liked Dark Elves for years though, so I'm still not sure why.

Looks like mostly people are neutral. THey either love em or do not care. LOL

Samus666 wrote:
Umm... I think this comes very close to Trolling

We, meaning the royal we here, were asked for our opinion, and we gave it. I dislike Dark Eldar immensely--they're probably my second or third least-liked armies, as a matter of fact. To assume that I should sugarcoat my opinion because some Sensitive Sally might get her knickers in a wad on Dakka, of all places, is really quite silly.

If you like Dark Eldar, bully for you. That's your opinion, and I'm more than happy to let you have it. Heck, go ahead and buy all the Dark Eldar models you want and laugh while you crush my poor helpless Orks with the weight of one million dark lances. Personally, I don't like them for all the reasons I've mentioned, and while I'm not overly upset at their inclusion in 40k, I don't think the universe would be worse off for their loss. I suppose, then, that my position is that of a great, resounding meh, albeit with some negative connotations.

Ultimately, I think the people who are getting offended are choosing to be offended. My intention is not to ruffle feathers, and as such, perhaps I should start including a little smiley at the end of everything I say to show that I am, in fact, smiling, and I'm not trying to be a complete and total jerk. I just do not like Dark Eldar. Go figure.

That said, I've just realized that my four least favorite armies are all the "newest" armies. To whit:

4: Black Templars. I don't dislike them, really. I just don't see why we needed another Marine codex, and if we really needed one, why it had to be some nobody Second Founding Chapter.

3: Dark Eldar. As mentioned above.

2: Tau. Thematically, they clash with much of 40k, and I've yet to be challenged against them. The whole weeabo thing also applies here.

1: Necrons. Boring to paint, boring to build, boring to play against, and boring to play. If given a choice between a friendly game against a Necron player and heading home early, well, the keys are already in the ignition, I dislike playing against them that much. It's a personal thing. Oh, and the C'tan did it.

Like I said, I'm sure there are plenty of people who have excellent Dark Eldar armies and are a blast to play against. I just plain don't like them.

Barkdreg Badtoof said alot of things about Dark Eldar that I pretty much agree with, no need to repeat that. Someone else also talked about Eldar really being all the fantasy elf types rolled into one, which I consider a good thing. Edar aren't nice, and Eldar pirates are nasty enough for 40k piracy. You don't have to throw in the Legend of the Black Pearl curses to make the pirates nasty enough.

However, I would like to throw in another defense of the "Why I don't like Drows in Space" opinion. Mainly it's as follows:

Drow are lame. The Underdark is lame. Drizzt is lame.

To elaborate, I have to start with the whole concept of the Underdark, which is another layer of "really awesome nasty stuff" that gave whoever actually came up with that idea an excuse (a lame one) to make things twice as nasty as the regular thing. From there, we get the Drow who are really-awesome-and-better-in-every-way-than-normal-elves. GWs Dark Elves are actually a bit better than the Drow, simply because they didn't need to invent a whole new plane of existence for them. Sadly, GWs Dark Eldar are a step back to the Drow ancestry, and just bores me immensely.
The constant competition for the baddest and evilest people of the whole galaxy is forcing all the evil races to constantly get either more evil and/or unstoppable. The whole idea of this hidden city inside the hidden and secret area where only Eldar can go is one of the symptoms. Finding out that these hidden and secret Eldar outnumber the actualy Eldar is just making my point for me.

I'm not a big fan of the other evil races who are competing for the "Mostest Evillest" title either, but they all started from some decent idea. The Space Drow didn't.

If you actually read this far, you have my apology for the wall of text.

Option 7: Don't love them. Indifferent, but still want them to have an update of rules and/or models.

I probably won't end up playing them, but they do deserve an update either rules, models or both. Why should we always just get SM or Chaos, before someone says "because they sell better". SM only sell better because they are the race that is promoted the most. If SM was fixed up into two codices (SW is different enough for their own Codex still) they might have had the time to keep the other races up to date.


I agree though, that Ad Mech needs their own Codex as well. They are a seperate empire of humanity simplied allied with the Imperium. If the Imperium is so important, shouldn't Ad Mech have a codex?

glory wrote:Drow are lame. The Underdark is lame. Drizzt is lame.

To elaborate, I have to start with the whole concept of the Underdark, which is another layer of "really awesome nasty stuff" that gave whoever actually came up with that idea an excuse (a lame one) to make things twice as nasty as the regular thing. From there, we get the Drow who are really-awesome-and-better-in-every-way-than-normal-elves. GWs Dark Elves are actually a bit better than the Drow, simply because they didn't need to invent a whole new plane of existence for them. Sadly, GWs Dark Eldar are a step back to the Drow ancestry, and just bores me immensely.
The constant competition for the baddest and evilest people of the whole galaxy is forcing all the evil races to constantly get either more evil and/or unstoppable. The whole idea of this hidden city inside the hidden and secret area where only Eldar can go is one of the symptoms. Finding out that these hidden and secret Eldar outnumber the actualy Eldar is just making my point for me.

I'm not a big fan of the other evil races who are competing for the "Mostest Evillest" title either, but they all started from some decent idea. The Space Drow didn't.

If you actually read this far, you have my apology for the wall of text.

Um...you're mixing your fluff here.

There is no "underdark" in the GW Fantasy Role-Play world. There is no Drizzt in GW fluff. There are no Drow in GW fluff.

In fact, the concept of Dark Elves (Svartalfar) predates both Dungeons and Dragons and Games Workshop, dating from Medieval Scandanavian legend and mythology.

Originally, there were five "alignments" in the GW cosmology: Law, Good, Neutrality, Evil, Chaos. To me, the inclusion of Tau and Dark Eldar are a leaning back towards the alignments of "good" and "evil" that have been absent for so long in the 40K universe. Law (ie, the Imperium) is not "good," and Chaos (the manifestations of the Warp) are not "evil." Their motivations aren't the same.

Also, you mention something about all the armies you hate being the "newer" armies. I have to assume you have been playing for a while, because DE are over 10 years old, for example. The Black Templars are mentioned in the older fluff, too. Really, Tau is the only army that's particularly "new" in your list. Unless, of course, you're an old schooler like me that can remember when there were really only five armies to play.

No offense has been taken over here Mr Badtoof, you have your view, and I respect that.

However, I would say that as the only army without a new codex in 12 years, Dark Eldar are hardly new.

Ketara wrote:However, I would say that as the only army without a new codex in 12 years, Dark Eldar are hardly new.

I'd say they're very new, in fact. The only armies which are truly "newer" than Dark Eldar are Black Templars and Tau.

Sure, they've gone a long while without a Codex update, but I'd be willing to argue that's more a sign of the failure of the Dark Eldar to "catch on" rather than anything else, really.

Ketara wrote:However, I would say that as the only army without a new codex in 12 years, Dark Eldar are hardly new.

Aside from willfully ignoring their update about 6 years ago, sure. This is The Big Lie of the Dark Eldar, and it devalues much of what they complain about. The fact of the matter is that DE were updated. Lightly, and weakly, but they were updated. To ignore this fact is exceptionally disingenuous and untruthful.


Pre-Fall, the Craftworlders and Exodies were a minority of the Eldar civilization. The Fall consumed the overwhelming majority of the non-Craftworld, non-Exodite Eldar. I've always figured that most of the survivors of the Fall would be Craftworlders, Exodites, Crone Worlders, and the Dark Eldar - in that order. And the number of Fallen outnumbers the combined survivors manyfold.

The idea that the Dark Eldar have been multiplying like rabbits (or cockroaches) is a bit strange - are they biologically different such that their stock is appreciably more fertile than Craftworlder or Exodite stock? Because you can bet there is the Path of the Breeder on each Craftworld...

Indeed, we also have possible evidence of Craftworld Eldar population growth: in the entry about Craftworlds it states that they have grown in size since the fall; since you don't expand trading vessels to planet sized behemoths for laughs, I would guess there has been population growth there.

I don't see anything like that from describing the Dark Eldar (though I may have missed it).

One thing though, the 2nd ed Eldar Codex did state that the Exodites are the ones most likely to thrive, so it's possible they're up there compared with the Craftworlders.

IMO the only downsides are the models and the lack of a new codex.

Other than that I really like them.

I would collect an army of DE as my 2nd army if they would give them a proper update. I like the style that the army is done in, even if alot of the models are not good examples of how the style can be expressed.

ATM I'm not a fan of having only a couple viable units, so I'll wait until they are squatted or redone to start my 2nd army (wyches in raiders and warriors in raiders... yay?).

Saldiven wrote:
Um...you're mixing your fluff here.

There is no "underdark" in the GW Fantasy Role-Play world. There is no Drizzt in GW fluff. There are no Drow in GW fluff.

In fact, the concept of Dark Elves (Svartalfar) predates both Dungeons and Dragons and Games Workshop, dating from Medieval Scandanavian legend and mythology.

Originally, there were five "alignments" in the GW cosmology: Law, Good, Neutrality, Evil, Chaos. To me, the inclusion of Tau and Dark Eldar are a leaning back towards the alignments of "good" and "evil" that have been absent for so long in the 40K universe. Law (ie, the Imperium) is not "good," and Chaos (the manifestations of the Warp) are not "evil." Their motivations aren't the same.

Also, you mention something about all the armies you hate being the "newer" armies. I have to assume you have been playing for a while, because DE are over 10 years old, for example. The Black Templars are mentioned in the older fluff, too. Really, Tau is the only army that's particularly "new" in your list. Unless, of course, you're an old schooler like me that can remember when there were really only five armies to play.

My apologies if my text was misleading. As far as I knww, Drow are not a GW invention at all, they're a type of elf native to the D&D Forgotten Realms setting. Specifically, the Underdark. The poll specifically mentioned Drow, so I thought it would be best to explain why I don't like them (Drow, that is, or even Space Drow).

I'm aware that evil elves aren't a new invention, but that's not really relevant in a discussion about liking them. In fact, I even specifically state that I sort of like the Dark Elves of the fantasy setting, for being at least somewhat believable evil elves. As for Chaos not being evil (and the other stuff about alignments), I really can't even begin to disprove a delusion like that.

As for the rest of your post, I think you're confusing me with another poster (Barkdreg Badtoof). I personally don't hate the newer armies, in fact I'm a big fan of the Tau model range. I just think it's silly that a species that counts its domain in star systems (rather than sectors) would be of any actual importance in the events of the galaxy.

I think their fluff is not thought out well at all.

Granted I may be indifferent towards them you have to understand that the guy who got me into the game (early 3rd edition) played Dark Eldar and IG. His Dark Eldar were pretty tame and I think he beat me 2-3 times out of all the games we played. Now after saying that and facing them later on (as a more competitive list) I respect them more. I just need to see something new and I'll probably bite.

Allow me to quote what I said Mr JohnHwangDD.

No 'new codex' in 12 years. Not 'no update'. No 'codex'.

We assume the dark eldar are multiplying, because intially, Dark Eldar were supposed to only live in Commorragh. However, in the latest Eldar codex, it mentions 'vast cities' in the webway. Hence, for there now to be plural where there was once singular, they must be multiplying. It makes sense as well, as Dark Eldar are kind of known for indulging in more gratuitous forms of pleasure a lot more than their strait laced cousins.

We have a few players in the area. They all have the exact same army. I hate gun lines (Especially when tehy're that freaking mobile), but I'd love to see a redo to see what comes out.

@Ketara: OK, if you want to play that game:

My Dogs of War haven't had an published Army Book since mid-1998.

My Dogs of War aren't even listed as an army by GW anymore.

Play what game?

Unlike you John, I'm not gripped by some urge to attempt to make sarcastic, and no doubt highly witty repartee.

You took what I said and changed it. I corrected your mistake. Deal with it. End of discussion.

You're playing word games and boo-hoo games.

Bardrek.. to be honest, everyone else sees them as evil, but i doubt they see themselves as that, so they don't do what they do because 'they are evil' They are described as impulsive and given to instant gratification. Just because said impulses are to kill/maim/torture, doesn't mean they are inherently evil. It actually describes it pretty well in the eldar codex fluff. Bored because they technologically had everything, they gave in to doing w/e the hell they wanted. I imagine if all humans in the imperium did wtf they wanted to do it'd be a far nastier sight than the DE. but thats just speculation..

Also, if any dark eldar raped a human, i'm pretty sure he would be killed outright.. being intimate with a lower race.. seriously..

and how in the world do you know that the eldar shape the universe more than the dark eldar? i believe that most fluff books say that contacts with craftworlders is rare, while raider groups strike pretty much everywhere in the imperium? IMO that's quite a bit more than the craftworld cousins...

Also, if you're woried about getting incriminated because you have dark eldar models, you must be up to something that could get you incriminated? i don't worry about being assumed guilty just because i play a certain WH40k army.. thats just silly... And if you're worried about parents-in-law, seriously, just put them out of sight. How hard is it to pack them up and put them in your closet or under your bed? If they can still find them, they're crazy anyway and it shouldn't matter.

Sadly, a lot of the 40k world doesn't see the really good Dark eldar gamers.. or perhaps they see too many of them... regardless. Even without the fluff, i love the army play style. The only ones who come close are eldar wind hosts and perhaps Speed Freeks, but neither have the flare the DE have, and that's what i really love. If GW does dump the DE they better give me something just as good, or i'm going to be quite put out.

I love the Dark Eldar. Without them they would have to completely overhaul the Eldar story which I rather like, and the DE themselves are just such a fun army. I wish more people were into them.

I wonder if they're so well liked now (as evinced by this poll) because of their underdog status--a kind of faux nostalgia? The fact of the matter is that I'd never bother with them in their current shape, even if I could afford to do so. They are the one 40k army whose codex I don't own and I have several editions of other armies' books. I once noted that to a redshirt who responded "yeah, but you're not missing anything." That said, I'd never wish them out of existence. Rather I wish they'd get caught up along with Necrons and the Inquisition. But, again, I have no interest in playing them myself or even collecting them currently.

Kabal of Night's Wish wrote:Bardrek.. to be honest, everyone else sees them as evil, but i doubt they see themselves as that, so they don't do what they do because 'they are evil' They are described as impulsive and given to instant gratification. Just because said impulses are to kill/maim/torture, doesn't mean they are inherently evil. It actually describes it pretty well in the eldar codex fluff. Bored because they technologically had everything, they gave in to doing w/e the hell they wanted. I imagine if all humans in the imperium did wtf they wanted to do it'd be a far nastier sight than the DE. but thats just speculation.

So you think that somehow killing/raping/plundering because you're bored justifies them being in the whole thing for the evulz?

Kabal of Night's Wish wrote:and how in the world do you know that the eldar shape the universe more than the dark eldar? i believe that most fluff books say that contacts with craftworlders is rare, while raider groups strike pretty much everywhere in the imperium? IMO that's quite a bit more than the craftworld cousins...

To be very, very trite, Second/Third War for Armageddon. The whole Eldrad vs. Abaddon thingy at the end of the 13th Black Parade. What have Dark Eldar done? Oh yeah, they've raided a few worlds that nobody seems to know about because it's not mentioned in the background.

Eldar get screentime. Dark Eldar get ignored. If Dark Eldar were doing something universe-shaping, don't you think they'd get some screen time, too?

Kabal of Night's Wish wrote:Also, if you're woried about getting incriminated because you have dark eldar models, you must be up to something that could get you incriminated? i don't worry about being assumed guilty just because i play a certain WH40k army.. thats just silly... And if you're worried about parents-in-law, seriously, just put them out of sight. How hard is it to pack them up and put them in your closet or under your bed? If they can still find them, they're crazy anyway and it shouldn't matter.

See, here's the thing. My inlaws really wouldn't care one way or the other, nor would they really go out of their way to get this stuff. However, if I were to collect an army of what appears to be bondage fetishists, the people around me would actually wonder why the hell I'd ever be inclined to do so (especially my fiancee, for the record). If I were to show up to a GW store with an army of the Diaznettes with their many, many bewbs proudly painted, I'd expect a few sideways glances. Same goes with the Dark Eldar. Here's my army of half-nude males and females, undressed slaves lounging on ships, and extreme S&M types: accept me as a good person and let me hang around with your kiddies, moms!

so are you stating then that if the models were not 'bondage fetish' you would be more inclined to play them? make some conversions then.. it isn't that hard...

Besides, the army i play with (succesfully) only has one wych squad and i hardly think that they look like bondage models, nor has anyone i've ever talked to made that observation.. I don't make a habit of showing this game off to parents of children.. this is a game of fiction, if people read into you so much about what army you play, it's kind of sad.
One of my friends, who is very laid back, not talkative, and calm, plays bloodthirsty, wild and crazy khorne berzerkers. You can't read too much into people by the army they play...

They should squat just one of the marine variant chapters, just one. Would be pretty funny, i wouldn't even care which one. Black Templars would be the easiest since no one really likes them anyway. The players from that chapter could still play using the space marine codex, and then GW would be immune to criticism of marine favoritism.

jsullivanlaw wrote:They should squat just one of the marine variant chapters, just one.

Black Templars would be the easiest since no one really likes them anyway.

How about Chaos Legions rules?

BT have beautiful plastic bitz, and I'm using them, so I gotta reject that suggestion.

Personally I love the DE. After playing marines for 11 years in a row... they have become a breath of fresh air. The Codex still works... and is still very competitive... but alas, as others have pointed out... with 4 unit selections in 4 Sections of the FOC... (HQ, Elites, Troop and Heavy). That max out at about 2K points... and then you have to start taking the sub-par units (as in bang per pointcost)

Warriors, statswise, are awesome.
Wyches, statswise, are amazing
the HQ's are dirt cheap and decent fighters...
Raiders and Ravagers are light but pack a punch.

I just wish that I could take other units in the list withought feeling that I could definately take somthing better in its place, the concepts for the other models are great.. but they dont execute well on the table. Dont get me wrong I do use the other "underused" units, like mandrakes, or warp beasts, or Reaver Jetbikes. I would just never take them to a tournament.

Cheers!

I find reavers work at tournaments. Wyches used to be where it was at, but these days, under 5th Edition, a properly toold up Archon on jetbike joined to a tooled up jetbike squad is much more flexible than a wych or incubi squad.

agreed ketara. Lord on RJB with punisher and drugs with +1atk reroll misses and +1 str can annihilate just about anyone ^_^

Kabal of Night's Wish wrote:Lord on RJB with punisher and drugs with +1atk reroll misses and +1 str can annihilate just about anyone ^_^

Except a blob of bog-standard Guardsmen FRFSRFing their Lasguns...

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:

Kabal of Night's Wish wrote:Also, if you're woried about getting incriminated because you have dark eldar models, you must be up to something that could get you incriminated? i don't worry about being assumed guilty just because i play a certain WH40k army.. thats just silly... And if you're worried about parents-in-law, seriously, just put them out of sight. How hard is it to pack them up and put them in your closet or under your bed? If they can still find them, they're crazy anyway and it shouldn't matter.

See, here's the thing. My inlaws really wouldn't care one way or the other, nor would they really go out of their way to get this stuff. However, if I were to collect an army of what appears to be bondage fetishists, the people around me would actually wonder why the hell I'd ever be inclined to do so (especially my fiancee, for the record). If I were to show up to a GW store with an army of the Diaznettes with their many, many bewbs proudly painted, I'd expect a few sideways glances. Same goes with the Dark Eldar. Here's my army of half-nude males and females, undressed slaves lounging on ships, and extreme S&M types: accept me as a good person and let me hang around with your kiddies, moms!

My local GW store is next to a Goth/bondage fashion shop. So I don't think it'd be as much of a problem, but there is a wall seperating the two.

I fail to see how anyone could argue that a White Dwarf update is even remotely similar to a new codex. I also don't see how DE can be minimized as 'just a bunch of pirates'. The fluff puts them overrunning entire hive worlds for slaves. Thats a pretty big force, and very comparable to what the Necrons are doing in terms of attacking style and threat level.

Dark Eldar would resurface quite well if given the proper attention. Weren't Wood Elves in a similar predicament before they got a new dex a while back?

And to whomever mentioned it earlier, a model riding a reaver jetbike is limited to a 1 hand weapon, and cannot take a punisher.

It's been FAQ'd (i think). You can have a Str 7 Archon now (3 + 1(bike) + 1(punisher) + 1(drug) + 1 animus vitae).

Why is it reaver jetbikes don't increase the rider's armor? In friendly games, I play that it gives the rider a 4+, but there's nothing in the rules to support this.

omg this thread is called why i hate dark eldar and 45% of the people fukn love 'em?Dude no offense but this is an EPIC FAIIIIIIIIL.


I love 'em.



Inflicting pain since '93

the_emperors_renegade wrote:omg this thread is called why i hate dark eldar and 45% of the people fukn love 'em?Dude no offense but this is an EPIC FAIIIIIIIIL.


I love 'em.



Inflicting pain since '93

kuro_khan wrote:I don't actually hate the Dark Eldar, they're my favorite army, but I'm seeing a lot of anti-DE hate on the forums whenever we talk about wanting a new codex. I'm trying to find out why.

PLEASE no flaming . Just trying to understand people.

OP doesn't hate the DE, he just wants to find out why others do.

IntoTheRain wrote:
And to whomever mentioned it earlier, a model riding a reaver jetbike is limited to a 1 hand weapon, and cannot take a punisher.

Jetbike riders are now allowed double handed weapons. It was in one of the latest FAQs.

Therefore you kit out a lord with an animus vitae, combat drugs, shadow field, jetbike, punisher, and tormentor helm. All of a sudden, you have a Lord that has can get six power weapon attacks on the charge at strength 6 with rerolled misses, a 2+ invulnerable save, and a ridiculously high Initiative. He also has a jetbike for fast movement.

Throw him in a squad of 4 jetbikes with 2 blasters, and a reaver succubus with combat drugs, punisher, and tormentor helm, and you have a unit capable of incredibly fast movement around the field, and the capability of trashing whatever unit it is they decide to hit.

I'm not sure if you can give an Archon all of that though, due to wargear limits. Would be awesome to try out though... Still gets insta-killed by Psycannon, with no save, unfortunately... so keep him with people.

Barkdreg made some good points.
The DE fluff is something that I can't follow either.

However, instead of providing a new DE codex, GW could think about an Exodite codex.

I love Dark Eldar. And this poll pretty well shows what I've always suspected: A great many people like them or, at the very least, deem them worthy of a new face. They only don't play them right now because of the models and the extraordinarily bland codex. But most people here recognize that their background has immense potential for a very compelling army.

Then there's the loud but vast minority who deliberately turn a blind eye to the ridiculously unfair way DE have been neglected for as long as they've been around. Those people are the funniest. They'll typically proceed to enthusiastically pedal the most redundant, underwhelming army ideas anybody has ever seen.

And of course there are those who just don't like DE, and I can't fault them because there's nothing wrong with disliking certain armies. I personally can't stand SMs of any flavor. Their models are more ridiculous than DE models imo, despite being 'improved' upon every 6 months. But I'm not stomping around saying crap like 'SWs don't deserve a new codex!' They do deserve a new codex. Please just understand that DE players like myself are getting immensely tired of, well, pretty much any news about new codices. Cause it's never for the army that deserves it most (Dark Eldar )

JohnHwangDD wrote:Pre-Fall, the Craftworlders and Exodies were a minority of the Eldar civilization. The Fall consumed the overwhelming majority of the non-Craftworld, non-Exodite Eldar. I've always figured that most of the survivors of the Fall would be Craftworlders, Exodites, Crone Worlders, and the Dark Eldar - in that order. And the number of Fallen outnumbers the combined survivors many fold.

The population disparity goes to lack of any real hard numbers of how many craft, exodite and crone worlds are there and number of elder on them. During the Fall the craftworlders were doing good just to escape, and none of them knew Vect was able to unite and lead their dark brethren to safety, til long after it happened.

The idea that the Dark Eldar have been multiplying like rabbits (or cockroaches) is a bit strange - are they biologically different such that their stock is appreciably more fertile than Craftworlder or Exodite stock? Because you can bet there is the Path of the Breeder on each Craftworld...

If I remember it right, Dark Eldar don't need spirit stones like the Craftworlderz or Exoditez do for each of their newborns. No angst or any other emo emotions to interfere with the act, thou finding suitable mate(s) to procreate with is about the only hurdle the DE have to face with reproduction. Biologically all of the elder are the same least as far the Elder Harlequin are aware of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerSmurf wrote:I think their fluff is not thought out well at all.

A problem not exclusive just to the DE. The whole evil shtick GW done with the DE, Chaos (especially Khorne's faction) and IoM went to the point of caricature, and that's even before the not so minor problem of fluff repeating contradicting itself.

Rubberanvil wrote:The population disparity goes to lack of any real hard numbers of how many craft, exodite and crone worlds are there and number of elder on them. During the Fall the craftworlders were doing good just to escape, and none of them knew Vect was able to unite and lead their dark brethren to safety, til long after it happened.

We do know that the Craftworld population has become bigger though (larger craftworlds than the original ship). We also know how much their activities affect the IoM, which is a lot more than the Dark Eldar do. Also, the Craftworld Eldar send armies (epic size) to battle sometimes, I've never seen Dark Eldar do anything but smaller raids.

Also, in terms of Space capability, I get the impression from BFG that Craftworlders and Corsairs (who are not Dark Eldar but Craftworld outcasts) make the biggest impression of the Eldar forces.

If I remember it right, Dark Eldar don't need spirit stones like the Craftworlderz or Exoditez do for each of their newborns. No angst or any other emo emotions to interfere with the act, thou finding suitable mate(s) to procreate with is about the only hurdle the DE have to face with reproduction. Biologically all of the elder are the same least as far the Elder Harlequin are aware of.

That's not likely to be that much greater in factor; combined with the death rate in Commoragh ad other cities compared with the other Eldar factions and any rate advantage is likely lost (or even behind that of others because of it).

That they are the same species means that their procreation wouldn't be massively different.

Daba wrote: Craftworld Eldar send armies (epic size) to battle sometimes, I've never seen Dark Eldar do anything but smaller raids.

Quite the contrary. Eldar are renowned for using other races to fight their battles. A tactic they much prefer over facing opponents head on which, when they actually do it, it's either defensively, or they do it with as few troops as they can.

Whereas Dark Eldar have been known to aggressively and successfully attack entire planets. P127 of 5th ed rulebook:
"849.M41 All contact is lost with outposts on Birmingham, the Black Planet. Subsequent investigations of the massacre indicate it to be the work of Dark Eldar Raiders.
891.M41 The Long Midnight. The worlds of the Persya sector suffer countless attacks from Eldar Pirates. (aka Dark Eldar) Using ancient technology, the raiders swathe their targets in utter darkness (DE technology) and then pillage and slaughter at will. The vicious raids continue for half a year until Imperial Praxion arrives to drive off the raiders.
920.M41 Eldar pirates (aka Dark Eldar) attack the troopship Emperor's Faithful as it exits Warp space in the Thanas system. The ship is boarded and then disappears, (DE technology) taking with it a complement of 5,000,000 Imperial Guardsmen and 200,000 men of the Imperial Navy.
978999.M41 Dark Eldar raiders cripple the Imperial Navy's moorings at Bakka."

If I remember it right, Dark Eldar don't need spirit stones like the Craftworlderz or Exoditez do for each of their newborns. No angst or any other emo emotions to interfere with the act, thou finding suitable mate(s) to procreate with is about the only hurdle the DE have to face with reproduction. Biologically all of the elder are the same least as far the Elder Harlequin are aware of.

That's not likely to be that much greater in factor; combined with the death rate in Commoragh ad other cities compared with the other Eldar factions and any rate advantage is likely lost (or even behind that of others because of it).
That they are the same species means that their procreation wouldn't be massively different.

No indeed, though Commorragh most definitely has a higher death rate, I think the nature of the DE says it also has a much higher birth rate. They're not dinosaurs who eat their own young... Think of it like a SoCal ghetto. Not a great place for kids, yet plenty of kids grow up there nonetheless.

Hmm.. Dark Eldar kinda remind me of Mindflayers.

Very advanced race, slave-reliant, and "eat" their slaves when they get hungry.

Mindflayer/Illithid, for you fake geeks out there (play Warhammer, but not D&D? Shame)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illithid

I love my DE, first army I have owned. The playstyle is unique vs other armies.

Seems to be alot of love for the DE here and a few bitter players who probably lost to DE.

kuro_khan wrote:I'm not sure if you can give an Archon all of that though, due to wargear limits. Would be awesome to try out though... Still gets insta-killed by Psycannon, with no save, unfortunately... so keep him with people.

Replace the Jetbike with a Skyboard and you can get it all bar the Aminus Vitae; which, frankly, if you feel lucky, you can use combat drugs to get the exact same effects =D Also, thanks to the Skyboard, the Archon gets +1 to his armour save (I have no idea how being on a floating skateboard improves your armour...), just in case the shadow field ever fails.

Sir, there's no way I can hate Dark Eldar.

i really like the DE fluff. and their whole play style and everything.

they would without a doubt be my next army once ive got everything else made and painted, IF and only if GW were to update them. people say they might get squatted because not enough people play DE. but im sure, given new models that dont look crap and a competitive codex, the number of DE players would skyrocket

Daba wrote:
We do know that the Craftworld population has become bigger though (larger craftworlds than the original ship). We also know how much their activities affect the IoM, which is a lot more than the Dark Eldar do. Also, the Craftworld Eldar send armies (epic size) to battle sometimes, I've never seen Dark Eldar do anything but smaller raids.

Er..DE raids have been known to take entire hive worlds back as slaves.

Think of them as similar in size and style to the Necron Raider fleets that have started harvesting the living.

I would love a new codex. I like the models, but I wouldn't complain if they were redone. As long as I dont have to get a buncha new raiders or something haha. I kind of like playing a niche army though, and I would kind of hate it if a buncha new people start up the DARK ELDAHHH-R! NYAAA WE WILL FEAST UPON YOUR SOULS FILTHY HUMANS!

On second thought, nevermind. Nothing could topple the oh-so-popular Space Marines and as long as new codices come out for them, I dont think "too many dark eldar" could ever be a problem haha!

I wouldn't mind a few more Dark Eldar players though... It'll give my splinter weapons something to do. Most of the time they don't do crap, and just leave my agonizers and disintegrators to do all the heavy lifting.

Nelson wrote:I dont think "too many dark eldar" could ever be a problem haha!

If the new codex is done right, it could very well be a problem.

Archonate wrote:

Nelson wrote:I dont think "too many dark eldar" could ever be a problem haha!

If the new codex is done right, it could very well be a problem.

Probably not too bad. A lot of players look at all the 5+ armor saves and the armor 10 open topped vehicles and scoff. A lot of people don't like their units dying, even if taking more fragile stuff is better tactically. That's why there are so many space marine players. If necrons were good at assault they would probably be ultra popular.

i really don't care, don't see anything wrong with them...they're just a bit boring

BAN wrote:i really don't care, don't see anything wrong with them...they're just a bit boring

Because murdering, pitiless, soul-drinkers who take pleasure in pain and debauchery...are so boring.

I like them, obviously as a Druchii fan it was a nice extension of warhammer ideals when they where introduced.

However if you asked me would I rather have Exodite Eldar or true Chaos Eldar (they still exsist right? sometimes get lost on GW retcons) then I'd wave bye bye to the Dark Eldar in a heartbeat.

But as those two are unlikely to ever happen, then aye, Keep the Dark Eldar coming.

I like the concept not the execution.

Every time I play the Dark Eldar the only things that hold up the army are the special rules. It feels gamey, unfinished and I think makes sham of some of the 40k rules. If your army isnt a 4 base statline, with good armor and some sort of exception rule to escape the issues of morale your just a B army.

To make the dark Eldar able to even have a chance they got a collection of unique excpetion rules that are outdated, gimmicky and irritating:

Combat Drugs
Grotesques
Shadow Field
Haemonclus Morale Shooter
Wych CC abilities
Agonizers
Portals
Mandrake Shade Stealth
Nightshields
Telos Scatter Fire
Drug Dispensers

Basically if the army can't go strait into melee turn 1, or from off table through portals, and use it's "special rules" there it looses. It's an irritating mess of outdated rules and custom rule sillyness that's aproaching the Orks on the "needs-a-redo-o-meter". Keeping track of all the combat drugs bonuses is just a flat out pain.

I also don't like the army much:

No Tanks?
No Closed topped vehicles?
No Walkers?

...and it is filled with so many obvious stinker units no one ever plays, they weren't even good ideas when they were original...? (Or particularly good models in many cases either)

Heavy weapon troops with jump packs?
Beast Handlers
Skyboard Riders
Grotesques
Mandrakes
Talos

Plus 5th edition gave away all their unique racial wargear, that wasn't so hard to understand:

"turboboost"
"Plasma Grenades (strike at I)"

...to every army in the game, and 5th killed them with TLOS and AP1 + 1. so easy to wreck their vehicles now...

It's a neat concept but it needs a redux in a severe way!

EDIT: PS I voted "other" because I hate them for essentially obsolete rules.

Their fluff is watery at best all mysterious background and stuff, some people get into that but not me. I'd rather read about how awesome they are now or how cool they used to be than read a hundred pages of well no one really knows or they dissappear without a trace. at least the craftworlds are said to exist diffinitively, the DE home is just out there maybe...

Their rules are pretty generic now days, they haven't been properly updated in half a decade which is really GW's fault. Couple that with the fact they really have no particularly awesome hooks in regard to game mechanics and they are about like fighting regular eldar with a more stabby bits...

Their players are a bit fanatical and sometimes a bit whiney, (my brother plays them which is likely where i get this interpretation) there have been way to many DE players complaining they are gonna get Squatted, actually heard less complaints from squat players when the squats got squatted on...

Drow in general I have a problem with, this is a key elitist gamer thing I always get into fights over. Dark Elves ok, Drow stupid. the whole lets slap dark skins on something and make it a complately seperate species just gets me fire up. Dark Eldar should have been one of the sub sects of Eldar allong with Biel Tan and the lot, each of them should have been differentiated more like the differant SM chapters. But no they add them as a new race and then neglect the subgroups of eldar and later neglect the Dark Eldar too. not the best idea in my oppinion...

The biggest problem I have though is their models, when you find the exceedingly rare ones that are out there they all seem kinda... pathetic. Some of the metal ones are cool looking but all of them seem stupid once they get painted. Their most common paint scheme is black on black on black with a touch of silver and blue, it sounds like it could be cool but then you realize it kills any detail, i've seen maybe 2 well painted DE units, units mind you never a whole army. Maybe thats because their rare, maybe thats because the older figs lacked really super detail to start, or maybe its because I know some really bad painters (like my brother) regardless I just think they look lame...

and now let the argument commence...

dynath wrote:Their fluff is watery at best all mysterious background and stuff, some people get into that but not me. I'd rather read about how awesome they are now or how cool they used to be than read a hundred pages of well no one really knows or they dissappear without a trace. at least the craftworlds are said to exist diffinitively, the DE home is just out there maybe...

Their rules are pretty generic now days, they haven't been properly updated in half a decade which is really GW's fault. Couple that with the fact they really have no particularly awesome hooks in regard to game mechanics and they are about like fighting regular eldar with a more stabby bits...

Their players are a bit fanatical and sometimes a bit whiney, (my brother plays them which is likely where i get this interpretation) there have been way to many DE players complaining they are gonna get Squatted, actually heard less complaints from squat players when the squats got squatted on...

Drow in general I have a problem with, this is a key elitist gamer thing I always get into fights over. Dark Elves ok, Drow stupid. the whole lets slap dark skins on something and make it a complately seperate species just gets me fire up. Dark Eldar should have been one of the sub sects of Eldar allong with Biel Tan and the lot, each of them should have been differentiated more like the differant SM chapters. But no they add them as a new race and then neglect the subgroups of eldar and later neglect the Dark Eldar too. not the best idea in my oppinion...

The biggest problem I have though is their models, when you find the exceedingly rare ones that are out there they all seem kinda... pathetic. Some of the metal ones are cool looking but all of them seem stupid once they get painted. Their most common paint scheme is black on black on black with a touch of silver and blue, it sounds like it could be cool but then you realize it kills any detail, i've seen maybe 2 well painted DE units, units mind you never a whole army. Maybe thats because their rare, maybe thats because the older figs lacked really super detail to start, or maybe its because I know some really bad painters (like my brother) regardless I just think they look lame...

and now let the argument commence...

If every damn marine chapter can have it's own codex i think eldar can have two... At least they don't ride giant wolves. Especially when DE are entirely different than the craft worlders. DE do not play like Craft world eldar. They have many many more vehicles but much easier to kill their vehicles. They have far more firepower but far less staying power. I love the dark eldar fluff. Fate worse than death anyone? I think the dark eldar are great army for hobbiests as well. They do have a lot of ugly units... I think the vehicles are just fine though. For the ugly models you can be creative and convert stuff from fantasy. I mean there are like a bazillion different kind of elf models out there from fantasy to use. Even for the hobby-challenged, it isn't that hard to put a gun on a witch elf.

dynath wrote:Their fluff is watery at best all mysterious background and stuff, some people get into that but not me. I'd rather read about how awesome they are now or how cool they used to be than read a hundred pages of well no one really knows or they dissappear without a trace. at least the craftworlds are said to exist diffinitively, the DE home is just out there maybe...

The reason of why they are so mysterious is that they do not have a hundred pages of anything. The existing codex (I own both versions) has like 2 pages of fluff + short stories. Of course they are mysterious, they barely have official fluff. Even the 5th Edition rulebook has a longer text on fluff than that codex. If a good codex would be developed, they would lose automatically that halo of ¿twilight? and would become much better known. And that would be great. But it hasn't been written yet, so we don't know anything. This reply was endorsed by Captain Obvious!

jsullivanlaw wrote:They should squat just one of the marine variant chapters, just one. Would be pretty funny, i wouldn't even care which one. Black Templars would be the easiest since no one really likes them anyway. The players from that chapter could still play using the space marine codex, and then GW would be immune to criticism of marine favoritism.

Come on, if they squat BTs and DE... Damn, my third army are SoB... I would move inmediatly to Infinity.

dynath wrote:Their players are a bit fanatical and sometimes a bit whiney, (my brother plays them which is likely where i get this interpretation) there have been way to many DE players complaining they are gonna get Squatted, actually heard less complaints from squat players when the squats got squatted on...

Not to single you out specifically (Cause you're not the only person who says this) but how do you justify saying DE players are characteristically whiny... When every army has an overabundance of whiners? Especially many SM players. This is how some SM players sound to DE ears: "(insert random SM chapter) need their own codex and their own separate sprues with relevant shoulder pads and their own separate rules and fluff! Painting them the right color isn't good enough! I can't play that chapter without the right shoulder pads and my own codex! I refuse!" or "(insert any SM chapter with a codex) have a crappy new codex! It needs to be redone! The Chapter has been destroyed by newness!"

After the way DE have been treated, DE players have no sympathy for these people. Even Tau and Tyranid players complain about their army not being good enough... What are you complaining about? You just got a new codex last edition!

And yes I'm aware that I am whining. IMO, DE players are entitled to a little indignation at this point.

Oh and the Squat players thing? No, DE do not whine as much as Squat players. Back when GW had its own forums, the whining from Squat players was so shrill, that GW mods had to resort to locking all threads that so much as mentioned the word "Squats".

Archonate is my hero.

DE players have no right to whine as much as Squat players. Remember, Squats players actually lost their army. DE are merely waiting for another update to their perfectly-legal and currently-supported army.

There is a big difference.

I think it is insulting to the Squat players to even suggest that the situation is at all comparable.

I don't hate them, I don't love them, but I like them. They are good on w40k's universe.

jsullivanlaw wrote
If every damn marine chapter can have it's own codex i think eldar can have two... At least they don't ride giant wolves. Especially when DE are entirely different than the craft worlders. DE do not play like Craft world eldar. They have many many more vehicles but much easier to kill their vehicles. They have far more firepower but far less staying power. I love the dark eldar fluff. Fate worse than death anyone? I think the dark eldar are great army for hobbiests as well. They do have a lot of ugly units... I think the vehicles are just fine though. For the ugly models you can be creative and convert stuff from fantasy. I mean there are like a bazillion different kind of elf models out there from fantasy to use. Even for the hobby-challenged, it isn't that hard to put a gun on a witch elf.

Actually I think eldar should have 5, I think most armies should have five really its a good number and would improve the quality of codex products. I actually think marines should be limited to 1 combining all the varients together to make one really big really good book worth the money we pay. Generally i'd rather see the Imperial armies compressed so they aren't so dominating in the game. The DE are an interesting concept with lots of potential but are really just a varient of Eldar in the same way SW are a varient of Ulra Marines, an off shoot that behaves differently. Its like all Ford cars are Fords but the Sedan handles differently than the Sports model, you don't go to a different dealership for the sports model (least not in my tax bracket). Really if you get down to brass tacks equal racial representation (wow that sounds politically correct) should be had by all the 40k races.

As for modeling, well every army is good for hobbiests and every army has its share of hideous or stupid looking models, but the trouble comes when you HAVE to convert everything and you HAVE to make do. I could scratch build a SM army out of old reaper minis and it would be both rewarding for me as a hobbiest and look damn fine when i'm done doesn't mean that the game is supposed to work that way. We chuck money at GW least they could do is make the generic ugly models cheaper than the unique cool looking ones. Their vehicles are OK in my book. I like things to be believable looking and I don't believe any of the DE vehicles are good enough to go to war on, they look flimsy and more like parade floats that anything to me. I wouldn't be afraid if a hundred screaming knife weilding maniacs dropped out of hyperspace on a version of jaba's sail barge with a cow catcher on the front no matter how mysterious they are. physically the models aren't a hook for me, they are just... meeh.

[qoute] Erasoketa wrote
The reason of why they are so mysterious is that they do not have a hundred pages of anything. The existing codex (I own both versions) has like 2 pages of fluff + short stories. Of course they are mysterious, they barely have official fluff. Even the 5th Edition rulebook has a longer text on fluff than that codex. If a good codex would be developed, they would lose automatically that halo of ¿twilight? and would become much better known. And that would be great. But it hasn't been written yet, so we don't know anything. This reply was endorsed by Captain Obvious!
[/qoute]

Yeah thats pretty much my point, "fluff could exist but it hasn't been written yet." Write some really cool fiction and spam GW with it, come on people. The reason cool stuff exists for other races is cause people wrote it and hurled it at GW.

[qoute] Erasoketa wrote
Come on, if they squat BTs and DE... Damn, my third army are SoB... I would move inmediatly to Infinity.
[/qoute]

I might have mentioned this in my dialog about making humanity smaller but man do i wish they'd squat some of the SM. BT is close, BA seemed on the edge there for a while too with the digital codex stuff and then subsiquent disappearance from the artwork. Now I play BA so it might come as a surprise for me to yell SQUAT ME. I mean i love my army and stuff but man it just gets old having some new varient of SMs pop out of the warp every week. draw a line guys. do like eldar and have a whole bunch of different squad types that can drop in and out. I'd rather see a system where its quality over quantity. And yeah i know i can say squat me because it isn't going to happen but it would be awesome if my army would become myth and legend like the squats as apposed to being drown in fads like the varient SMs. Make me a Primarch figure for my army before you make another entirely new chapter with different shoulder pads and 2 extra troop choices. For that maybe make me an army that looks cool, acts cool, and is all unique before that. An invasion by Hrud would be funny as would a random Vespid uprising. maybe an army of space frogs and space bunnies... I know where I can get models for that now we just need rules...

Archonate wrote
Not to single you out specifically (Cause you're not the only person who says this) but how do you justify saying DE players are characteristically whiny... When every army has an overabundance of whiners? Especially many SM players. This is how some SM players sound to DE ears: "(insert random SM chapter) need their own codex and their own separate sprues with relevant shoulder pads and their own separate rules and fluff! Painting them the right color isn't good enough! I can't play that chapter without the right shoulder pads and my own codex! I refuse!" or "(insert any SM chapter with a codex) have a crappy new codex! It needs to be redone! The Chapter has been destroyed by newness!"

After the way DE have been treated, DE players have no sympathy for these people. Even Tau and Tyranid players complain about their army not being good enough... What are you complaining about? You just got a new codex last edition!

And yes I'm aware that I am whining. IMO, DE players are entitled to a little indignation at this point.

Part of this prespective is certainly colored by my brother who once attended a tourne and accused 3 people of cheating because his Kabal leader fell in 2 turns of assault. Now removing my brother for the equation you can search the forums for evidence of what I refer to as "whiny" behavior. You are correct that all army players complain at and there is a consistant trend to complain a lot around new edition time. Most of what I see are constant complaints, lementing the lack of models, lack of a new codex, lack of support, complaints about GW nerfing certain rules, complaints about vehicle death. there will aways be a certain amount of that going on with every army but thats the majority of DE threads i've ever read or DE players i've personally talked to at Tourne. But complaints aren't whining to me until that the complaint has been made a thousand times and the articulation of the complaint is distilled into a formula of "but my army needs this" or "my army doesn't have that". Complaints can be constructive, whining isn't. I haven't seen many constructive threads about how to fix the DE and when i do they soon get bogged down in no, like the Forgeworld DE thread i joined, the only comments that actual DE players have is "no don't do that" as if doing nothing is better than something. Its this kind of deafest whining which hampers the army and it is ill befitting an army that is pretty much built on hostage taking. I imagine that there are also a lot of DE players who just keep their mouths closed about things because it doesn't bother them but those aren't the ones i've heard and more's the pitty because I'd like to hear or read some constructive criticism and I imagine so would GW. They may not actually take the criticism but it would show interest at least. I'd personally like to see the DE fixed and game worthy if for no better reason than my brother's army.

I don't hold much sympathy for whining in general DE, SM, Tau, CS, SoB, Nid, none of the whining from them moves me to tears, and maybe DE do have a valid reason to whine but at the same time maybe the effort would be better dedicated to improving the army. I don't see fixit threads and I don't see where to find alternate models threads or scratch build DE threads or custom fluff threads all I see is pity me threads. Truth is I'm more than a little indifferent to the plight of the army as a result and it took me a lot of thought to actually come up with the complaints i have about them I could do the same with every army and game system in existance if i tried and thats a huge pitfall in the whole army.

Archonate wrote
Oh and the Squat players thing? No, DE do not whine as much as Squat players. Back when GW had its own forums, the whining from Squat players was so shrill, that GW mods had to resort to locking all threads that so much as mentioned the word "Squats".

I have never actually met a squats player, haven't been in the game long enough. My perspective is from current forums i attend such as here, heresy, and librarium. I understand that the needless slaughter of an entire civilization is a good reason to whine. I suppose the whining has since died down so maybe my statement here is a complete misnomer.



Wow, thats a run on post...

There were never really any squats players to meet...

(It was just a single box set, 2 metal bike models and a handful of metal power armor guys).

The squats idea was silly. They were just dwarves in space, and not really flushed out at all. The comedy left the game years ago, especially once the orks got junkyardwar brutalized and are no longer the lanky comedians they use to be.

The Dark Eldar idea is much better, even with minimal fluff, more robust and with a much richer model line and concept.

It'd be a shame if they got discontinued.

JohnHwangDD wrote:DE players have no right to whine as much as Squat players. Remember, Squats players actually lost their army. DE are merely waiting for another update to their perfectly-legal and currently-supported army.

There is a big difference.

I think it is insulting to the Squat players to even suggest that the situation is at all comparable.

It's pretty comparable. Right now DE are where Squats were in 2nd edition. They had a tiny smattering of legal rules for those who wanted to play them. They watched as everybody got updates, while always hearing rumors of their own imminent codex... Sounds familiar.

But I think DE will be updated where Squats were dropped. I never said the shrillness of Squat players wasn't justified, but there's nothing to be done for them now. DE can still be helped. Maybe it's all this 'whining' that convinces GW to finally throw them a bone.

At least the Squats players/fans have a clear and definitive statement from GW. They're gone, period, and GW isn't going to bring them back. Like it or not, there's no uncertainty or ongoing angst about it.

What bothers me about GW and DE isn't so much that they've not had any rules or model updates for so long but that GW has left them in limbo for so long. For me, the uncertainty (mostly 'when', rather than 'if') is the most frustrating part.

I dont' think this is better or worse than what happened with the Squats, just different. Erstwhile Squat "players" have a bunch of stupid looking but otherwise useless models but no reason to spend any more time/money/effort/emotion over them. DE players have a collection of outdated but playable models, but don't have sufficient information to know whether or how to invest their time/money/energy/emotion into them.

So much of this angst could be alleviated if GW would simply communicate the situation. I don't expect any firm release dates or details, I just want some simple honesty about what's going on.

Given my choice, I'd almost rather have DE officially 'squatted' than remain in Limbo for another year (or 2? 3? more?).

LMoE

[For the record, I think that GW did the right thing by eliminating the Squats from the 40K universe they were developing. They faced a decision of whether RT/40K was simply going to be a goofy space version of their Fantasy world (c.f. Blood Bowl) or was going to have a coherent "Look and Feel" and be a credible setting. Whether by a lack of imagination or a fundamental incompatibility of the Dwarf archetype with the emerging 40K universe [I vote the later], there wasn't a satisfying way to reimagine the Squats in the same way as the Eldar or Orks. Which is a wordy way to say that "Squats were Dumb".]

Well , I dislike them because really,they are only evil elves and also because their fluff is kinda wierd.

LastManOnEarth wrote:What bothers me about GW and DE isn't so much that they've not had any rules or model updates for so long but that GW has left them in limbo for so long.

The DE Codex was updated in 2003.

Space Wolves received no updates whatsoever until their recent, standalone Codex.

DaemonHunters is 2002, a full year older than Dark Eldar.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

LastManOnEarth wrote:What bothers me about GW and DE isn't so much that they've not had any rules or model updates for so long but that GW has left them in limbo for so long.

The DE Codex was updated in 2003.

Space Wolves received no updates whatsoever until their recent, standalone Codex.

Only when you don't count the updates that SWs got. Like every time a new vanilla SM codex was released. But for some inane reason, that doesn't count as an update.

And why would one count an update to Codex: Space Marines as an update to Codex: Space Wolves?

So we should also count updates to the Rulebook as updates to all Codices. For example, Rapid-Fire changed significantly in 5E, so that's really an update to both Splinter Rifles, and SW Bolters.

If that's the case, then both DE and SW were updated 2 years ago, so you have no basis for complaint at all.

In any case, if you count an indirect update to C: SW (also C: WH and C: DH ) via C: SM, then you must count DE as having been updated in 2003.

And even then, Necrons are older.

Aren't DE getting dropped by GW? Anyway, I dislike Dark Eldar because the're so cruel.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

LastManOnEarth wrote:What bothers me about GW and DE isn't so much that they've not had any rules or model updates for so long but that GW has left them in limbo for so long.

The DE Codex was updated in 2003.

Space Wolves received no updates whatsoever until their recent, standalone Codex.

DaemonHunters is 2002, a full year older than Dark Eldar.

I think you've got your chronology wrong.

The DE second edition codex is (c)2002.

The DaemonHunters and WitchHunters codices are (c)2003.

I don't believe I or anyone else is claiming that ONLY DE have been neglected; the Inquisitional armies and Necrons (and until now, SW) deserve the same sort of acknowledgement from GW as to the 'state of the army' and their intention to support it. Each of these also have slightly different histories of support and recognition from GW [e.g. Necrons were never removed from the shelves and made mail order only, nor have I heard any rumors that they were being squatted.]

The 2002 second edition DE Codex is the same as the original (1998) DE Codex except that it includes rules text for vehicle upgrades, revising/simplifying Wyche weapon rules, and lowering the cost of Reavers from grossly overpriced to only moderately overpriced. [Perhaps I'm missing one other minor fix/correction]. It was a little more substantial than a FAQ/errata but far short of an new/updated Codex. In most ways, DE are still operating off the 1998 Codex and models of that era. The 2002 second edition was/is appreciated in that it corrected some obvious defects of the first edition, but that was still 7 years and 2 editions of the basic rules ago.

LMoE

I have a extreme, somewould say unhealthy, obsession with Dark Eldar.

chromedog wrote:Better get him back under the bridge then.

I'm indifferent to the army.
I loathe most of the current models.
With new models (suitably eldar-looking ones. Praise be to the mighty Jes) they might attract me.

@Barkdreg tl;dr: Goths and Emos are NOT the same. There is a difference of about 20 years between them. There are similarities - but that's what happens when a 'fringe' culture goes 'mainstream', you get bleed through.
- I was a goth, when younger and not so long-in-the-tooth (there, threw in a 'vampire' reference as well).

Emo is totally the new goth, don't be silly. They basically are the same counter-culture movement, just with a new costume and a bit of re-packaging.

Barkdreg - I actually got through your whole post, and I don't think you're trolling. I'm a pretty rabid DE supporter, but I'm not so foolish to be able to deny the points you bring up.

As something of a Sadist, in the grand scheme of the cosmos and on the table-top, DE absolutely appeal to me. I like the aesthetics of the army, as they provide a true grim even Chaos cannot. Subtle nuances of horror and terror (which they tried to achieve with DE but honestly failed) are one of the last parts of evil that actually stimulate me. So in my super villains, DE. I'm sure there are other people out there who think that Chaos is actually more of a caricature of evil than DE, though.

To address your points though :

DE appeal to goths : Absolutely.
DE appeals to emos : Absolutely, again. They are so, so very tragic, tragedy is the cornerstone of emo.
The tone of the models doesn't belong in a PG wargame : Probably. When re-done, I hope they are more surreal and bizarre - rather than outright Clive Barker rip-offs.
Glass Cannons don't work in strategy games : If your definition of not working, is shortening the game to the point where enjoyment isn't maximized - then I would concede that. I do think that, while the concept of strict black/white overwhelming or underwhelming force isn't a completely healthy thing for any balanced strategy game - it's definitely a market that needs to be addressed. I think the strategy nihilists and cynics are the real DE demographic, with the secondary aesthetic pull going to the goth/vampire/emo/alternatives.

The underlying emphasis on bondage, rape, torture, slavery and so forth do create a pretty negative image. It's an easy cop-out to assume that a mother watching her kid won't really *get* the models, or won't think anything beyond them existing purely in the realm of fantasy but when you really think about the DE range - some of the concepts are pretty disturbing.

Nice post though, I do think you let your own moral bias take over a bit - but that's only human eh?

I was indifferent to the plight of the Dark Eldar before, but now I hate them. I hate them and want to see them squatted. I am tired of seeing every news and rumor thread on every forum I visit derailed by whining about the Dark Eldar and who really deserves a new codex next. It's always:

New Nid Codex Thread....

A: Warriors should get a 4+ save standard

B: Nah, I'd rather they got BS3 standard.

C: I'd rather they stayed BS2 standard, but have an option for up to BS4 with biomorphs

D: Who cares about nids?! Give us Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar!

A: There goes the thread....

B. Tell me about it.

D: What you don't think Dark Eldar deserve a new codex? Huh? Huh?

C: Gawd.

D: You nid players don't need a new codex. DE need the next codex.

A: As I was saying, I think the warriors are too fragile with a 5+ save...

D: Dark Eldar! Dark Eldar!

Arschbombe wrote: I am tired of seeing every news and rumor thread on every forum I visit derailed by whining about the Dark Eldar and who really deserves a new codex next.

I am tired of this as well. Come on, where are the Necron whiners!? The Dark Angels whiners!?

Chaos whiners wrote:WAAAAHHHH Our codex sucks compared to the last one WAAAAAHHHH

....yeah.

But I'm not tired of it enough to hate the dark eldar for it. It's not their fault they have a whiney emo player base! I like the 'idea' of the dark eldar, dark pirates who strike from anywhere and nowhere, give no quarter, and have powerful weaponry to boot. They could use much better models (I might actually make some someday out of regular eldar models....donno what to build the raider out of though.) but all in all I actually like the Dark Eldar. In fact, I like them "as is" with their current book. It allows for a powerbuild, and some less powerfull builds that can still be effective (and I think they might be able to pull off a "guardian-spam" type of list with enough Talos or something.)

Love the idea.
"Meh" about most of the models.
Have to remember GW is a business catering to it's customer base and resist the urge to hop a plane and go strangle someone at corporate with my bare hands every time a new SM 'dex comes out. What is it, 7 or 8 since DE?
At this rate, GW will have the Tyranids eat Cormorrah when they lose the entire DE fanbase over the "No New Dex Blues"

JohnHwangDD wrote:And why would one count an update to Codex: Space Marines as an update to Codex: Space Wolves?

In any case, if you count an indirect update to C: SW (also C: WH and C: DH ) via C: SM, then you must count DE as having been updated in 2003.

And even then, Necrons are older.

Though just to be clear the DE "update" was them actually just adding in some FAQ rulings and reprinting the book with a nice little new emblem on the front. One might submit then that it is only with FAQ releases that one should count updates. With that as the concept we're tied for oldest with DH/WH and Necrons.

I will happily concede the point that we have had a more recent updating of our codex then some other codices. I also will state we have the oldest codex - since I do not believe finally giving us vehicle upgrades, and some new wargear should really count as a "new" codex. You may feel free to have a different opinion about this.

That is untrue. I have a 1st printing DE Codex, and the revised DE Codex does more than just address Errata.

In the original DE Codex, where is the Wych HQ? Where is the option to take aWych Cult without taking Lilith? Where did the extra Wargear options come from?

Sure, DE got a small update, but DE did get an update that comprised adding things above and beyond what was in their original Codex.

While you may not be happy with that, the fact remains that DE were specifcially given new upgrades and options that other Codices didn't get.

While the incessant whining and complaints have some small justification, constantly overstating things is unbecoming.

Indeed, in many ways, it would have been better if GW had never updated the Dark Eldar at all.

At least some of the whining would be justified.

Thor665 wrote:I will happily concede the point that we have had a more recent updating of our codex then some other codices. I also will state we have the oldest codex - since I do not believe finally giving us vehicle upgrades, and some new wargear should really count as a "new" codex. You may feel free to have a different opinion about this.

Thank you for classifying me as whining.

Quite frankly I've never met a dark eldar player who wasn't a little off in the head. Maybe you're the mythical sane DE player, and it's everyother DE player who is crazy.

And for those of you think that your half naked toy soldiers don't make people look at you funny..... they do, you just haven't noticed it yet.

Angron wrote:Quite frankly I've never met a dark eldar player who wasn't a little off in the head. Maybe you're the mythical sane DE player, and it's everyother DE player who is crazy.

And for those of you think that your half naked toy soldiers don't make people look at you funny..... they do, you just haven't noticed it yet.

I was almost a DE player, and people look at me funny anyway. So what difference would it have made?

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:

Angron wrote:Quite frankly I've never met a dark eldar player who wasn't a little off in the head. Maybe you're the mythical sane DE player, and it's everyother DE player who is crazy.

And for those of you think that your half naked toy soldiers don't make people look at you funny..... they do, you just haven't noticed it yet.

I was almost a DE player, and people look at me funny anyway. So what difference would it have made?

I think that was his point. Only "off" people would play DE to begin with, right Angron?

Because yelling BLOOD FOR THE SKULL GOD YARGHHHHHH while playing evil space barbarians is totally well adjusted.

starbomber109 wrote:
I am tired of this as well. Come on, where are the Necron whiners!? The Dark Angels whiners!?

....yeah.

But I'm not tired of it enough to hate the dark eldar for it. It's not their fault they have a whiney emo player base! I like the 'idea' of the dark eldar, dark pirates who strike from anywhere and nowhere, give no quarter, and have powerful weaponry to boot. They could use much better models (I might actually make some someday out of regular eldar models....donno what to build the raider out of though.) but all in all I actually like the Dark Eldar. In fact, I like them "as is" with their current book. It allows for a powerbuild, and some less powerfull builds that can still be effective (and I think they might be able to pull off a "guardian-spam" type of list with enough Talos or something.)

I find this to be quite humorous, since I play both Dark Angels and Necrons, and have no problems with their current books at all.

Maybe it's just my craziness, but what makes DE players so different for wanting an update? As far as I can discern, the only difference between DE players and everybody else is that everybody else gets updated codices for all their complaining.

Angron wrote:Quite frankly I've never met a dark eldar player who wasn't a little off in the head. Maybe you're the mythical sane DE player, and it's everyother DE player who is crazy.

And for those of you think that your half naked toy soldiers don't make people look at you funny..... they do, you just haven't noticed it yet.

Now THAT is funny.

RxGhost wrote:
I find this to be quite humorous, since I play both Dark Angels and Necrons, and have no problems with their current books at all.

You did chop out my bit about Chaos whiners though, you've got them in their sig as well.

Arschbombe wrote:I was indifferent to the plight of the Dark Eldar before, but now I hate them. I hate them and want to see them squatted. I am tired of seeing every news and rumor thread on every forum I visit derailed by whining about the Dark Eldar and who really deserves a new codex next. It's always:

New Nid Codex Thread....

A: Warriors should get a 4+ save standard

B: Nah, I'd rather they got BS3 standard.

C: I'd rather they stayed BS2 standard, but have an option for up to BS4 with biomorphs

D: Who cares about nids?! Give us Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar!

A: There goes the thread....

B. Tell me about it.

D: What you don't think Dark Eldar deserve a new codex? Huh? Huh?

C: Gawd.

D: You nid players don't need a new codex. DE need the next codex.

A: As I was saying, I think the warriors are too fragile with a 5+ save...

D: Dark Eldar! Dark Eldar!

I hope they squat nids' and i hope the fluff reasoning behind it is that "Squats ate them". Poetic justice.

Demogerg wrote:I hate them because in over 12 years of playing warhammer I have never played a game against them.

I played them once, he charged them all and got killed by my grey knights in close combat, i lost 4 models, he lost his whole army

Bad dice or bad player? The DE army itself is much better then that.

Tonytiger89 wrote:he charged them all and got killed by my grey knights in close combat

Sounds like bad player to me, though I think his warriors made their points back at least

i love the army and the fluff , to bad they have sucky models , and correct me if i'm wrong but i think they only have a second edition codex... and if i find a way to convert them ...i'd do it

Depends what you mean by second edition.

They have a second edition of their codex.

It came out in third edition of 40k.

jsullivanlaw wrote:I hope they squat nids' and i hope the fluff reasoning behind it is that "Squats ate them". Poetic justice.

That's one of the stupidest ideas I've ever seen.

Arschbombe wrote:

jsullivanlaw wrote:I hope they squat nids' and i hope the fluff reasoning behind it is that "Squats ate them". Poetic justice.

That's one of the stupidest ideas I've ever seen.

Haha that would be hilarious.. Sure its stupid, so are the preportions of a leman russ.

Though the proportions of a Leman Russ wouldn't deny a bunch of players an army they'd already worked on.

Fear not it will never happen.. Dark eldar however are likley to be eaten by ravenous squats.

Archonate wrote:Maybe it's just my craziness, but what makes DE players so different for wanting an update? As far as I can discern, the only difference between DE players and everybody else is that everybody else gets updated codices for all their complaining.

I completely agree that most players want updates to feel loved and "special". As I have plenty of armies, I actually prefer a slower pace of updates because it promotes metagame stability and reduces my overall expenditures. I, for one, hope that GW never updates my DaemonHunters, and this is for purely selfish reasons. I am completely satisfied with what DH currently gives me (Mystics, playable Storms, etc.), and any update is only going to screw it up.

However, the DE players take things to a far different level. As far as I know, DE are the only army with an actual prohibition against creating new threads on Dakka without substance. It's not like you see CD or DoW players bombing the Skaven threads with whines for a new Army Book.

But the idea that somehow GW is picking on DE unfairly is a bit odd. DE actually did get an update, and there are other players who went longer without any updates at all. Many even lost their armies...

I think Squats is the only subject that GW ever ruled couldn't be talked about at all.

The only DE ban on Dakka is as regards rumors of new releases - and really specifically only insomuch as posting those Haemy greens go - the fact that so many people are so eagerly scrabbling for rumors seems to be a black mark on the DE player base? It sounds like a player base GW would want to foster. One eager for news and clamoring for the chance to buy new stuff.

Actually, back in the day, it was Wraithlords...

IMO, there's a lot of churn for the sake of churn, but whether it actually would convert to monetary sales is hard to say.

So far, it doesn't appear to have...

I have one thing to say . . . who needs a new codex when the rules work well enough as it is? Ok, so yes some rules need re-writing, or unifying with 5th edition. But if they can still kick ass then why do they need changing?

Other than clarification, the only reasons they need a new codex are to increase fluff, and create models of equal awesomeness to the army list =p

Thor665 wrote:Depends what you mean by second edition.

They have a second edition of their codex.

It came out in third edition of 40k.

Both editions of the DE Codex came out in third 40k ed.

Angron wrote:Quite frankly I've never met a dark eldar player who wasn't a little off in the head. Maybe you're the mythical sane DE player, and it's everyother DE player who is crazy.

And for those of you think that your half naked toy soldiers don't make people look at you funny..... they do, you just haven't noticed it yet.

Quite frankly I've known few DE players, but any of them (including me) had mental problems - if that is what you mean. That's just a lame comment. And the "lust-naked" thing has been present in WFB and 40k since the begining, 25 years ago, with Slaanesh. If that bothers you, you might like better any other game. I don't understand how you play Chaos knowing the nature of Chaos in the game. Angron is a half ton berzerker with wires in his head. Yeah, I see stuff like that everyday in my city... absolutely sane. Nurgle is dirt, illness... No one sane is appealed for that IRL. But this is fiction... DE are not sillier than the whole 40k universe.

YEAH! I concur Erasoketa's point. I too am a sane DE player. And DE are deffinetly not the the worst for flaunting their flesh. Slaanesh anyone?

I love the way that Dark Eldar players seem to have suddenly been branded as 'whiners', and 'off in the head'.

It's other people playing a different army of toy soldiers to you, who would like an update. If you think that makes it appropriate for you to question their mental health, then to be honest, you clearly have no idea of what someone with mental problems is actually like. It is a game of toy soldiers. Deal with it.

Oshova wrote:I have one thing to say . . . who needs a new codex when the rules work well enough as it is? Ok, so yes some rules need re-writing, or unifying with 5th edition. But if they can still kick ass then why do they need changing?

To be honest, if they gave us new models and basically reprinted the codex for a third time, but now with an extra ten-twelve pages of fluff I'd be pretty well content even if they did want to leave us with all our wargear and rules that don't work in 5th. The competitiveness of the codex is not an issue - a codex with two pages of fluff and a line of ancient models is a much bigger fault to my mind.

Ketara wrote:The truth

C'mon, you're out of your mind! When people walk by the line of people playing with small painted minis and see the rampaging Orks fighting the half naked Daemons while bigoted super soldiers stomp on half naked awesome dark elf boobies then everyone is totally like "whoah, I bet that guy playing the elves is half insane, unlike all the other reasonable and normal people playing the game...obviously."

It's science, you can't argue with it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:DE actually did get an update, and there are other players who went longer without any updates at all. Many even lost their armies...

Who gives a feth about a 3rd edition update? We want a new codex. Even this amazing "update" of yours is still older and more outdated than any other codex, yet you're still on this endless tirade about how DE players are supposed to be content with it... Go ahead and speak up for the massive Squats player base now as though they didn't stop caring 10 years ago.

I personally am of the opinion that they should've not come out with a new edition of gameplay WITHOUT having all available armies up to date with the "current" edition of rules.

so, obviously the DE didnt get a new book for 4th Ed. but, i think that GW needs to bring everyone up to 5th in time for 6th Ed. to come out (even if some of the Codices are geared more for the newer edition yet to come out)

I don't hate them. Rather I view them as a sick pet that should be euthanized. They are a useless, uninspired army. A basic copy and paste of Eldar in terms of weapons and stats with minor differences.

starbomber109 wrote:

RxGhost wrote:
I find this to be quite humorous, since I play both Dark Angels and Necrons, and have no problems with their current books at all.

You did chop out my bit about Chaos whiners though, you've got them in their sig as well.

That's because I like the new book better for mah Skulltakers, 'specially now with Zhufor (Str 10 Powahfist and EW!).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's the thing though, I hate the Dark Eldar in their current form...HATE. I don't like the models, I don't like the fluff, I don't like their pets. Especially since I find the Dark Elves in Fantasy such a compelling army with interesting story. I would like to see Dark Eldar back, but I want to see new models, new rules and new fluff.

I might have said this before, but to bring them back now in their current state would be like that episode of Buffy where Dawn tries to bring their mother back from the dead and Buffy's all:
"You can't do this, it's not the mom we knew!"
And Dawn is all:
"I don't care, I'm lonely and I love my mom!"
And then Buffy just smacks her.

Good times.

olympia wrote:I don't hate them. Rather I view them as a sick pet that should be euthanized. They are a useless, uninspired army. A basic copy and paste of Eldar in terms of weapons and stats with minor differences.

And I would argue the exact same for Marines...if we're going to have a end-all Codex:Eldar, then we should have an end-all Codex:SM that includes all of the chapters in one book.

In fact, let's just make a Codex:Xenos as well, and group them all into one army...

Archonate wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:DE actually did get an update, and there are other players who went longer without any updates at all. Many even lost their armies...

Even this amazing "update" of yours is still older and more outdated than any other codex,

Go ahead and speak up for the massive Squats player base now as though they didn't stop caring 10 years ago.

Untrue, as noted above. Exaggeration doesn't help your case when you need to argue from a basis of falsehood.

See, now if Squats hadn't been Squatted, they'd have more of a claim than DE.

olympia wrote:I don't hate them. Rather I view them as a sick pet that should be euthanized. They are a useless, uninspired army. A basic copy and paste of Eldar in terms of weapons and stats with minor differences.

Mostly agree with this statement but I also despise the art direction they went with. They look like power rangers mixed with leather metal bands and some bondage thrown in.

However the biggest thing that DE has against 'em is likely their poor business sales. It is interesting to see the internet phenom known as the DE population but in reality they were probably one of GW's failures even though they were boxed in a starter set.

Personally I'd rather see Eldar get some more plastics and redone before DE. Perhaps maybe even make DE a part of a new Eldar dex.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

See, now if Squats hadn't been Squatted,

I like that. I really do. Maybe signature material?
Anywho, I don't hade the Dark Eldar. They're an army waiting for an update. I started collecting Csm when their 3rd Book was released, and I had to wait for about 5 years for them to get updated. And instead of whining, I simply looked forward to when my beloved denizens of Chaos would be updated. And I read every book which featured the csm in it. The point is, I know several de players, and I've never heard them whine. So can those who keep whining simply build up their forces and prepare for the update. Or start a new army.

karimabuseer wrote:The point is, I know several de players, and I've never heard them whine. So can those who keep whining simply build up their forces and prepare for the update. Or start a new army.

Who are those who are whining? I dispute that the batch of DE players who whine do so in any greater amount to any other chosen topic to whine about in 40k.

olympia wrote:I don't hate them. Rather I view them as a sick pet that should be euthanized. They are a useless, uninspired army. A basic copy and paste of Eldar in terms of weapons and stats with minor differences.

Totally, now let me copy and paste those holofields onto my raiders... Seriously though, Eldar and Dark Eldar are nothing alike. It's like comparing marines to IG.

Thor665 wrote:Who are those who are whining? I dispute that the batch of DE players who whine do so in any greater amount to any other chosen topic to whine about in 40k.

Obviously we don't have any statistics to firmly establish the truth of the matter as to how many players of what outdated codices complain with what frequency. But enough DE players have complained and whined in enough threads on enough forums to create the impression that the DE player base is whinier than those of the Necron and Inquisition players. Maybe it's not the quanity of the whining, maybe it's the style or the placement. Maybe the Necron and Inquisition fans only complain amongst themselves while the DE players spread their complaints around. In any case, people have the impression that DE players are whiny and that impression wasn't just conjured out of thin air.

Arschbombe wrote:

Thor665 wrote: Maybe the Necron and Inquisition fans only complain amongst themselves while the DE players spread their complaints around.

What?!? People still play Necrons and Inquisition?

olympia wrote:I don't hate them. Rather I view them as a sick pet that should be euthanized. They are a useless, uninspired army. A basic copy and paste of Eldar in terms of weapons and stats with minor differences.

You must have confused them with space marine chapter differences, in which case, I agree. Basic copy and paste in terms of weapons and stats with minor differences.
Eldar and Dark Eldar on the other hand... Well the only thing they have in common is that dark lances are identical to bright lances. In no other way are they even remotely similar.
Space Marines have more in common with Chaos than Eldar have with Dark Eldar.

DE havent gotten in update since...1997, or was it 1998, yes? While inquisition is from 2003, so they are in the same boat generally, but DE are twice as old almost.

Loved Drow in the Drizzt Books, Dark Elves have always been my soft spot, in everything, but the 40k thing...w/ the pain killers and then them basically being glorified butchers, just doesn't fit me.

Like in the drizzt books, yeah, they tortured them to hell for hundreds of years, but 40k drow literally make them watch themselves being cut piece from piece, w/o any pain, thats terrible.

Dunno, just didn't like how GW did them, atm, Dark Eldar are just skinny black people who have Laz0rs and have a fetish for torture/murder.

Archonate wrote:
Space Marines have more in common with Chaos than Eldar have with Dark Eldar.

You can argue that Chaos and Loyalist Space Marines are very equivalent to each other though. I mean sure, they have some different units, but the units are about as durable (Only Chaos has one unit that's REALLY durable, the rest are still marines with different rules and wargear.)

In this way, Eldar and Dark Eldar...are GEQs (T3, 5+ save, very shooty, ect)