Do you play with downloaded and printed Codexes? Does your friend do it? Do you allow it or are you like no way? On the other hand, do you allow it if the person has a legal copy of it?
I sometimes piss of when my friend uses his printed version of Necron Codex and does not have all pages, like Warriors, which teleport rules would be handy to have in hand. And to make things better, now he has lost it and plays with point values and rules coming from his head!
General Discussion.

Sorry if a thread with this theam has been made, at least I didn't find anything very recent thread.

First up I'd ask what makes my opponent so special that they are exempt from paying for their hobby, then probably burn/shred their 'codex'

I don't allow printed Codexes.

If they have a legal copy, why not bring it?

I only allow pirate 'dexes if they're over Vassal.

I don't necessarily have a problem with it, but if someone is going to do it they better have the pages or there may be an issue. Though that is assuming it is a back up to an owned codex. If someone wants to keep their original codex in good shape I can appreciate that. Many gamers are dirty and nasty.

We've had a few people with balls big enough to come in to play in my shop with downloaded rulebooks. We politely and forcefully inform them to either hand it over so we can trash it, or play elsewhere. Besides the obvious problems that a store would have with pirate rulebooks, there's the additional aspect that it can hurt your reputation with GW by allowing them to be used.

I disapprove of people using pirate books or figures, software, etc.

If I am playing at home, I am entitled to refuse to allow it.

If I am at a club or other venue it is up to the organisers what they do. I would let them know I am uncomfortable with it.

I'll let you use ONE printed codex, the Blood Angels one they never printed.

Otherwise, stay away from my game and my FLGS.

This all seemed to assume pirated. I've seen people with printed ones to avoid damaging (a little over protective, I know) their books. If you knew the person owned the book but didn't want to break the spine, avoid spills, ect, whatever, would that still be a problem? Again, in the scenario you know they do own the book.

i use to use a back up copy of the IG codex (4th ed), as my origonal had been badly damaged by some dickwipe, and as the new codex was comeing out soon, i used a copy, as i couldnt see the point of spending money on it, when i planed to buy the new one as soon as it was released

I have a question for the group, I own all of my own codexs/army books for every army i have bought, but since coming to Scotland (for a semester studying abroad) i did not bring my HE one (i know i am an idiot but besides that), but i did bring my army, is it ok for me to use a printed army book, or do i need to go out and buy another one? Like i said i have it at home, but home is 3000 miles away. What would you say?

double post my bad

This is a fairly good topic, methinks. I for one will download all the Codex books purely to make an army list (fluff is on other websites and pictures I don't care about). Should I choose to play/collect said army, I will purchase the corresponding Codex. The reason I do this is because I can't afford to buy every single book that I will most likely end up not ever touching, nor do I want a pile of books collecting dust for no reason. So in the end, I do pay for what I'll actually use. I look at it like this: you go into your FLGS and ask to see the store copy of a codex and make an army list so you know what to buy... you're not paying to look at this Codex, you're simply using it. Should you decide to collect the army, you buy the Codex for it. Basically I'm just saving myself the trip/hassle of going through that step.

Whenever I want to look at potential army lists without buying the codex, I just copy-paste together lists over in the Army Lists section. GW themselves are really bad about living equipment costs on their army lists on their site.

I hate gamers with printed codexes, it gives off a lack of respect for your opponent. I remember playing a pick up game against a BA player a few months ago and he had a printed off dex. If someone is going to be a dick I'm going to be a dick right back so I started changing the rules on him like my Black Templars had 6++, Preferred Enemy and +1S all at the same time and I wouldn't let him look at my codex to confirm. He got the message and never came back to the store.

I play with some print out codexesisis, besides the BA one. Here's my story, DUHN- DUUUUUUUHN!!

I work abroad, travel a lot. I take scanned copies on my pc, and I am building abridged "Player's Edition" copies of my codexes with the fluff and the art removed. Print them out on some heavy stock paper, then spiral bind them at kinkos.

avantgarde you know that the BA codex is printed off right? Its an online official codex until they make a new one. Also when you are complaining about a lack of respect you probably should show some first, cheating is hardly an appropriate response.

I'd allow it, as it is I already needed to get 2 eldar codices, so printing off the reference sheet and some other pages from a pdf of the codex makes sense to me. Simply put I cqannot stand books getting wrecked. I loaned my original necromunda books to a friend who had a game shop, I was in and some "perswon" was wrecking it, pressing hard on the spine to keep it open breaking the binding in the process. I flipped.

And I didn't learn my lesson until I loaned the Stirling my necromunda scenery as they didnt have any of it, it got totally wrecked and again, they needed to replace it. Took them almost am month to with me badgering them pointedly.

Ive dowloaded the new SW codex off the interweb, memorised most of it and use the "store copy" for minor rule questions.

Not having a offical dex shows lack of respect for GW, not you, your club or your FLGS.

Avantgarde@ You sound like you were being a total dick.

1) The printed dex is the only type of BA dex.
2) So what if he had a printed dex, does it change your gaming exprience in anyway, No it doesnt.
3) You dont change the rules cause you of a printed dex, thats silly and childish.

avantgarde wrote:I hate gamers with printed codexes, it gives off a lack of respect for your opponent. I remember playing a pick up game against a BA player a few months ago and he had a printed off dex. If someone is going to be a dick I'm going to be a dick right back so I started changing the rules on him like my Black Templars had 6++, Preferred Enemy and +1S all at the same time and I wouldn't let him look at my codex to confirm. He got the message and never came back to the store.

Nice - so through your ignorance of how the BA dex works (it's an online download) and outright cheating, you drove a player away from playing at a store?

Bravo.

tiekwando wrote:avantgarde you know that the BA codex is printed off right? Its an online official codex until they make a new one. Also when you are complaining about a lack of respect you probably should show some first, cheating is hardly an appropriate response.

Slinky wrote:

avantgarde wrote:I hate gamers with printed codexes, it gives off a lack of respect for your opponent. I remember playing a pick up game against a BA player a few months ago and he had a printed off dex. If someone is going to be a dick I'm going to be a dick right back so I started changing the rules on him like my Black Templars had 6++, Preferred Enemy and +1S all at the same time and I wouldn't let him look at my codex to confirm. He got the message and never came back to the store.

Nice - so through your ignorance of how the BA dex works (it's an online download) and outright cheating, you drove a player away from playing at a store?

Bravo.

Slinky wrote:

avantgarde wrote:I hate gamers with printed codexes, it gives off a lack of respect for your opponent. I remember playing a pick up game against a BA player a few months ago and he had a printed off dex. If someone is going to be a dick I'm going to be a dick right back so I started changing the rules on him like my Black Templars had 6++, Preferred Enemy and +1S all at the same time and I wouldn't let him look at my codex to confirm. He got the message and never came back to the store.

Nice - so through your ignorance of how the BA dex works (it's an online download) and outright cheating, you drove a player away from playing at a store?

Bravo.

As a BA player too all I can say is good job being ignorant, arrogant and a passive-aggressive douche. A fine job avantgarde, a fine job indeed.

lolz, you know he's just trolling you, right? He didn't chase off any BA player, he's just trying to see how many people respond with "OMG you're a dick!"

I wonder how many more people will tear him a new donkey-cave before realizing that?

I am ok with folks using printed dexes as long as they definantly have a copy of the real dex, I can appreciate the want to keep the book nice, i cannot appreciate someone trying to cheap out by using a copy as a substitute.

avantgarde wrote:I hate gamers with printed codexes, it gives off a lack of respect for your opponent. I remember playing a pick up game against a BA player a few months ago and he had a printed off dex. If someone is going to be a dick I'm going to be a dick right back so I started changing the rules on him like my Black Templars had 6++, Preferred Enemy and +1S all at the same time and I wouldn't let him look at my codex to confirm. He got the message and never came back to the store.

Wow. Everyone has their fail moments. Not everyone is enough of a fecal reactor to proclaim it proudly on the interdweebs.

As far as being a troll; mebbe, mebbe. I have so little faith in humanity any more, however, that it is worth the feed. Also, maybe someone who would have actually made that mistake honestly will come in, see the extent of avantegayrde's jackassery and be forwarned.

avantgarde wrote:I hate gamers with printed codexes, it gives off a lack of respect for your opponent. I remember playing a pick up game against a BA player a few months ago and he had a printed off dex. If someone is going to be a dick I'm going to be a dick right back so I started changing the rules on him like my Black Templars had 6++, Preferred Enemy and +1S all at the same time and I wouldn't let him look at my codex to confirm. He got the message and never came back to the store.

Erm .. yeah ... might be worth pointing out as others have that the BA codex is a printable download. And no matter what, you can't justify cheating, makes the victory hollow.

Sidstyler wrote:I wonder how many more people will tear him a new donkey-cave before realizing that?

He's the troll that Dakka deserves, but not the one it needs right now...and so we'll hunt him...because he can take it...because he's not our troll.

nyyman wrote:Do you play with downloaded and printed Codexes? Does your friend do it? Do you allow it or are you like no way? On the other hand, do you allow it if the person has a legal copy of it?
I sometimes piss of when my friend uses his printed version of Necron Codex and does not have all pages, like Warriors, which teleport rules would be handy to have in hand. And to make things better, now he has lost it and plays with point values and rules coming from his head!
General Discussion.

Sorry if a thread with this theam has been made, at least I didn't find anything very recent thread.

We bust people out for using "Copied" products. It's kinda like being a cheapskate. I mean, if we have a new guy come in, someone is bound to have a book for the cat to use. If someone wants to live on the cheap, then they arn't really "Playing" and are just being coat tail grabbers. Riding the FOTM is meh to me.

ON THE Otherhand....

I don't see why GW doesn't use the technology and drop a hardback book on the market for each army in the form of the old school Rogue Trader books, and then use the internet for addentums, additions, and extra material for each army. It would save them printing costs, save them from consistantly peeing on our shoes, and using the technology smart for a change.

Each time they play around in Internet land, they do themselves a disservice by doing the job half way. Examples include thier craptastic website, DOW/ WAR/ The interactive army builder/ The download area of thier website/ SPecialist games website/ The Forgeworld website/ etc, etc.etc. pretty much if they do things on the internet themselves, they crap on it.

I'd really like them to get thier head in the game and use the internet as other game systems do.
Put out rules, downloads, etc. for the army, ad a few figures, play the figures a bit, come up with new material and keep the army relevent.
The FOTM system that they currently use is garbage, and there are more then enough examples of how they gimp the game by halfstepping on development.

grizgrin wrote:...fecal reactor...

...bahahaha!

Wow. Everyone has their fail moments.

Yeah I know, I've been caught feeding the troll once or twice myself...

There is no "maybe", he's busting your balls and so many of you are falling for it, it's ridiculous. I'm not often the brightest tool in the orchard and I managed to spot that he was joking around early on, and your excuse is "Well I have no faith in humanity so I'm pretty sure he's being honest." Pfft...

I personally try and have the Codex's of the Armies I play. My only one I am waiting on is getting IA 3 because of the cost of it over the number of Figures that I have out of that book. Only thing I don't have rules for right now out of newer books is the Drone Turrets. Everything else I own has either been updated FAQ's IA 1 and 2 which they updated for free thank you FW or in one of the GW books. The only thing I have a problem with is BA players that DL the first copy of thier codex and never got the updated copy. I keep that one on my computer just in case I find the players that don't have it. I don't like pirated Codexs for play because people always seem to forget one part of thier rule book when they come and play. I also like it when someone that has the book brings with them thier FAQ also. That way some of the big questions can be answered.

Sidstyler wrote:lolz, you know he's just trolling you, right? He didn't chase off any BA player, he's just trying to see how many people respond with "OMG you're a dick!"

I wonder how many more people will tear him a new donkey-cave before realizing that?

My delicate sense of immersion! Thanks Sid, now I need to find something else to be angry about, you jerk ;-)

Ahtman wrote:This all seemed to assume pirated. I've seen people with printed ones to avoid damaging (a little over protective, I know) their books. If you knew the person owned the book but didn't want to break the spine, avoid spills, ect, whatever, would that still be a problem? Again, in the scenario you know they do own the book.

Yep , im one of those "type" of people.

I always have the following:

-Main Codex: ( real one )
-Photo Copied pages into a binder
-1 color laminated copy of codex cover art in the front / Summary sheet in the back. ( This one i carry around during gaming the most )

The way i see it , GW codex isnt known for durability . If im going to have a book costing me $30 , it better last throughout the 4 years minimum.
Im not about to buy a 2nd to replace it if it falls apart.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

Here is example to what i meant earlier:
(PS , im sure there are plenty of printed ones without real codex , but just saying other types of legit prints that exists as well )

the only time i saw someone using a printed codex was when i kid printed out the info for a gk squad for his IG i didnt really care because i doubt he had copied it from online...he was six

I wouldn't be bothered if they had a printed codex as long as it was for a home game and everything else they had was official. (I say home game because I imagine LFGS's, won't let you in with one)

If it was me though I'd use a printed one purely for protection reasons, as in, I have a printed one i use for games so if it gets damaged then I still have the original official one, and use the official one when army building.

But I trust the people I play with so have never thought about it until now. But as my Marine codex is falling apart for some silly reason I'm going to be laminating it anyway. (Thanks go to my work for the laminater that I've borrowed on a long term basis (yes I do plan to return it someday))

Sidstyler wrote:

Wow. Everyone has their fail moments.

Yeah I know, I've been caught feeding the troll once or twice myself...

There is no "maybe", he's busting your balls and so many of you are falling for it, it's ridiculous. I'm not often the brightest tool in the orchard and I managed to spot that he was joking around early on, and your excuse is "Well I have no faith in humanity so I'm pretty sure he's being honest." Pfft...

Not QUITE where I was heading, but in all honesty where I was heading was no better. Yeah, you caught me. Busted.

Depends.

If the codex is currently in print, then don't even think about using a printed codex against me. Because I will get angry. You won't like it when I'm angry. .

On th other hand, If it's a book that can no longer be purchased in store (E.G Lustria, Eye of terror etc), the I'm fine with that, as I refuse to pay the prices I find most of these codexes for-and I don't expect anyone else to either.

Basically, out of print=
In print= .

LLF

Hmm this is a complicted topic- I understand why people don't like it when people download codexs to save money, although personally I have no issues with it at all, as long they have all the rules it doesn't impact the game so I am fine with it. However I can understand people being annoyed that they spend the money so other people should.

I guess the main thing is to look at circumstances:
-Do they have a codex, I play BA myself and if anyone politely asked me why I had a printed codex it's ok, but if they start being rude its complitely different .
-What are they using it for. I often get copies of them for armies I do not own or am considering starting. I dunno about everyone else but I can't afford to buy every codex just to look at the army, and I am not able to go to GW regularly.
-Do they have the book, I can fully understand not wanting to have your codex damaged. I have seen people have there codex borrowed with out them knowing (cough cough... No I do actualy think someone was just looking at it but the guy was still pretty angry).

I just people should think before they just start do stupid things-not directed at anyone here but we all know people who over react.

Times when it's okay:

Downloaded Blood Angel Codex
Downloaded Warmachine MK2 stuff


I think that's it.

Lord-Loss wrote:Not having a offical dex shows lack of respect for GW, not you, your club or your FLGS.

That's why I'm perfectly okay with pirated/printed/whatever unofficial codices, because it just gives GW the finger. You're already buying their expensive miniatures in order to play, I think that's enough. After all, they're a miniatures company, not a rules company, right? I mean, there's so many threads on Dakka where GW is attacked for this and that, and yet people seem to buy everything they publish - and afterwards still be angry with GW and, obviously, even with people who sort of avoided the GW money trap. I can understand the feeling of being cheated when you buy a real rulebook and others just download it, but just a little. After all, nobody has forced you to do so, especially when you're not 100 % convinced of GW. If you are, other's wrongs shouldn't really bother you.
It's pretty much the same as being angry with someone who owns an MP3 player or iPod or something, because there's no way in hell all of those 40 GB of music are legit. If you apply the same standards to that, most posters in this thread ought to be angry with nearly the whole world. I for one am not angry when buying an original CD, nor has anyone ever been with me because I might own some MP3s that weren't so paid-for.

First, I have no problem for things that are no longer in print. Download as much as you like.

I have download copies of pretty much every GW publication. I like to be able to read the codexes of armies I might be considering, or armies I might face. Of course, if I actually start collecting the army, I'll buy the codex. It's a much handier way to consult the rules, and I have no problem paying for things I'll USE. I wouldn't want to use printouts, anyway.

I'd be critical of anyone who uses printout codexes, though I'd be ok with it if they were just proxying and trying out new things. As long as, when they DO decide to go with the choice, they buy the book.

For example, If you want to 'try out' your SM army using DA rules to see what happens, by all means use a download. Just buy the book if you decide that's the way you're gonna play them in future...

Oh, and I guess I'd use download IA books if I was only using one unit or something. If you've got a whole Krieg army, buy the book. If you ONLY need the rules for your one Blight Drone, I'm not gonna force you to spend £50 on a hardback rulebook...!

I do have virtually every Codex in PDF format, but I've never used one to game with. Mainly I have them as a reference point, so I can quickly zip to a page to find a reference without having to go through all my actual Codices.

I try to memorise all the most popular armies, I know CSM, SM, SW.

I know when people are cheating with Tau, Crons and Orks cause Ive looked over the dexs and know there rules roughly.

malfred wrote:Times when it's okay:

Downloaded Blood Angel Codex
Downloaded Warmachine MK2 stuff


I think that's it.

Don't forget the FAQ's and errata! Although, GW WAS kind enough to combine the FAQ for the BA into the pdf.

Lord-Loss wrote:I try to memorise all the most popular armies, I know CSM, SM, SW.

I know when people are cheating with Tau, Crons and Orks cause Ive looked over the dexs and know there rules roughy.

He knows when you are sleeping. He knows when you're awake. He knows if you've been bad or good so be GOOD for goodness sake!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I have no problem with people having electronic copy of codexes they haven't paid for. I see no real difference between that and store copies. It's how the owner employs it that makes the difference.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:First up I'd ask what makes my opponent so special that they are exempt from paying for their hobby, then probably burn/shred their 'codex'

According to international copyright laws, I'm allowed to make a copy of any media I bought for personal backup use. What makes you so special that you feel it is okay to enforce your own, incorrect, view of the world on other people and burn/shred their property?


I recently got a netbook, and have a copy of every codex, rulebook, FAQ, and supplement on it (plus Army Builder). I have also paid for every single one, and have them on a shelf in my basement. I no longer worry about forgetting my list, or my codex, or even playing an opponent who left their codex at home. There is nothing illegal or unethical about my actions, and I think it is unreasonable for anyone to think that I'm doing so to avoid paying for my hobby.

I just bought Codex Space Wolves! but I'm still going to download it because i like it on my usb key so I can slack off in media class (I have every codex on my usb key, they make a great reference)

Redbeard wrote:
According to international copyright laws, I'm allowed to make a copy of any media I bought for personal backup use. What makes you so special that you feel it is okay to enforce your own, incorrect, view of the world on other people and burn/shred their property?

Any chance you could throw me a link to the relevant copyright laws or somesuch document? I'm hunting for one right now but not much luck. I'd love to be able to copy all the rules out of my Chaos Codex and just put them into a binder.

I think he meant he made the copy.

malfred wrote:I think he meant he made the copy.

I meant a link to the copyright laws that allow that, haha. I suppose my request does look rather dubious.

Mine is a hunted breed, but I don't personally mind people using printed codexes. I don't exactly endorse being a cheapskate, but I don't see how it is any worse than buying the products off online stores, ebay, or using non-GW glue or paints. It is on the level of scratchbuilding, and I don't really mind it. However, I would never endorse turning up to a GW store or a competetive event with a printed codex. That would just be rude. No problem in friendly games at home though. Instead of rebutting my statement, remember that this is just my opinion, and each is entitled to his own.

avantgarde wrote:I hate gamers with printed codexes, it gives off a lack of respect for your opponent. I remember playing a pick up game against a BA player a few months ago and he had a printed off dex. If someone is going to be a dick I'm going to be a dick right back so I started changing the rules on him like my Black Templars had 6++, Preferred Enemy and +1S all at the same time and I wouldn't let him look at my codex to confirm. He got the message and never came back to the store.

tiekwando wrote:avantgarde you know that the BA codex is printed off right? Its an online official codex until they make a new one. Also when you are complaining about a lack of respect you probably should show some first, cheating is hardly an appropriate response.

Lord-Loss wrote:Ive dowloaded the new SW codex off the interweb, memorised most of it and use the "store copy" for minor rule questions.

Not having a offical dex shows lack of respect for GW, not you, your club or your FLGS.

Avantgarde@ You sound like you were being a total dick.

1) The printed dex is the only type of BA dex.
2) So what if he had a printed dex, does it change your gaming exprience in anyway, No it doesnt.
3) You dont change the rules cause you of a printed dex, thats silly and childish.

wow, you guys totally epic failed on your 40k trivia checks. HE'S JOKING, not trolling! the rules he "made up" to punish the BA player using a printed codex are simply the vows he has as a black templar player, lol. repeat, he's JOKING! he did nothing illegal to the BA player; look it up in your pirated codices! it's like me saying that i want to screw over someone using a printed codex with my space wolves, so i made every power weapon strength 5 (ie a frost blade) and told him that if he has the gall to charge me that i'll charge him back! (army wide countercharge rule) also, if he is really a dork and wants to kill my favorite model (my marine with a goofy grin and a cape), then i'll simply no longer let him use the models in the unit that did it for the REST OF THE GAME as punishment! (lucas's stasis grenade rule or whatever it's called). that'll teach him to bring his printed codex!

p.s. i USE the printed codex for my BA.

Interesting to see posters vehemently against recasting using printed codices.

It doesn't bother me but as a store owner I could understand a different perspective. I like to know what I'm buying so I exercise the many advantages the internet has and I check out a codex before purchasing, even had the IG codex a week or two before official release, etc. Also hauling around a binder as opposed to a bunch of codices is more convenient and safer and if you lose the binder you're not out $30.

warboss wrote:

avantgarde wrote:I hate gamers with printed codexes, it gives off a lack of respect for your opponent. I remember playing a pick up game against a BA player a few months ago and he had a printed off dex. If someone is going to be a dick I'm going to be a dick right back so I started changing the rules on him like my Black Templars had 6++, Preferred Enemy and +1S all at the same time and I wouldn't let him look at my codex to confirm. He got the message and never came back to the store.

tiekwando wrote:avantgarde you know that the BA codex is printed off right? Its an online official codex until they make a new one. Also when you are complaining about a lack of respect you probably should show some first, cheating is hardly an appropriate response.

Lord-Loss wrote:Ive dowloaded the new SW codex off the interweb, memorised most of it and use the "store copy" for minor rule questions.

Not having a offical dex shows lack of respect for GW, not you, your club or your FLGS.

Avantgarde@ You sound like you were being a total dick.

1) The printed dex is the only type of BA dex.
2) So what if he had a printed dex, does it change your gaming exprience in anyway, No it doesnt.
3) You dont change the rules cause you of a printed dex, thats silly and childish.

wow, you guys totally epic failed on your 40k trivia checks. HE'S JOKING, not trolling! the rules he "made up" to punish the BA player using a printed codex are simply the vows he has as a black templar player, lol. repeat, he's JOKING! he did nothing illegal to the BA player; look it up in your pirated codices! it's like me saying that i want to screw over someone using a printed codex with my space wolves, so i made every power weapon strength 5 (ie a frost blade) and told him that if he has the gall to charge me that i'll charge him back! (army wide countercharge rule) also, if he is really a dork and wants to kill my favorite model (my marine with a goofy grin and a cape), then i'll simply no longer let him use the models in the unit that did it for the REST OF THE GAME as punishment! (lucas's stasis grenade rule or whatever it's called). that'll teach him to bring his printed codex!

p.s. i USE the printed codex for my BA.

He was trolling that comment was meant to cause a negative reaction for his enjoyment. Thats what trolls do, he even admitted he trolled.

Cane wrote:Interesting to see posters vehemently against recasting using printed codices.

Not to re-open that debate, but they are significantly different in terms of intellectual property use and rights. Recasting someone else's intellectual property is illegal. Having a copy of a piece of media that you purchased for personal use is legal. Is it really that interesting that I'm in favour of legal actions and against illegal ones?

What's with the big hubla over printed codices and army books?

I honestly don't use any but if someone used on against me I wouldn't care. It would just tell me that people don't care about GW. To me, I don't really care.

Does it show lack of respect? Not really. Just a refusal to waste 25 bucks on a book that's going to fall apart in 10 minutes.

Plus, it's about the models anyway. Not the rules.

I don't really care if people use printed codices. Your average Warhammer army already costs OVER NINE THOUSAND dollars so I don't see what the big deal is if someone doesn't spend $20 on a codex.

I prefer to have the book anyway, though.

I'll admit I have over 4gbs worth of codex', rulebooks , painiing guides etc.. however I do not game I only use them for painting references and to read the fluff

If you can't afford to buy a set of golf clubs, can you still go to the course with a 'copied' set of clubs and play a couple of rounds of golf? I think this whole question comes down to a question of ethics. As a long time gamer that actually owns all of the 40k codices, I do find it rather offensive that someone can't come up with the money to purchase a codex for the army they are playing. Am I going to refuse to play against them because of it - probably not. Am I going to do it - nope!

I have a purchased copy of the Orks Codex.

Before I bought it, I found a torrent of it, and the BGB (I bought the rulebook too, more because I can't stand shuffling through PDF files, I need a book, and was too lazy to print it out) I mainly did the pirate thing so I could try and figure out what kind of army I wanted to get into, before plunking down money for a codex and doing yet more thinking.

As for people using printouts and such....I donno, I only know one guy who plays blood angels. I've never seen anyone with a pirate codex. I do sometimes feel like I should photocopy relevant pages in the BGB so that I don't have to take THE ENTIRE BOOK with me if I want the rules, but I don't know how legal this is.

yeah,
I bought copies of all 40k Codex.
I think the fluff justifies their cost, even if I don't play the army.

'Know thy enemy, for you are known to him already'
I read the rules briefly too so that I have some understanding of how each army works.

Panic...

i don't have a problem with people using printed pirated codices when they play against me. i personally don't use them (if i'm investing in a 40k army, i'll buy the codex) but i'm not going to refuse to play against someone who does. i DO however encourage them to buy the real thing for armies they own and (if that fails) DO reserve the right to quip about their use of the said printed copy. generally, i do this by referring their ingame actions to the carribean code, specially annunciating the letter "arrrgggg", and referring to their lack of a parrot/eye patch/limb prosthetic, and trying to use the words "matey" and "bollocks" as often as possible.

I wouldn't have a problem with someone using it at all.

I do think thought that if you are going to play an army then you should have the codex but really I could care less. It's kinda like bagging on people for sculpting their own models or converting models for cheap when you bought the actual models.

I will admit to using online codexes for the purpose of learning about other armies and building theoretical armies, but if I were to actually play the army yes I would have the actual Codex. I don't want to pay for a bunch of codexes just to learn about Eldar rules or something like that.

Printed is okay if it's a codex that is only available as a PDF (eg. Ravening Hordes or Blood Angels)
I think in a shop, you'd be fair enough to ask the player to use a purchased codex.

I'll tolerate bootleg codices, but I cannot abide soda bottles "counts as" drop pods. That just pisses me right off. Like most others, I buy the codex for any army I play. However, if I have questions about another army I will consult a friend's .pdf.

Back before the Ork codex was released, a friend downloaded and printed out a copy of the codex that got leaked. He bought the real codex when it came out. He left his codex behind and I got to use it for a while, but then he took it back and now I'm stuck with a printout. I'll wrangle up the $20 sometime soon for the real book.

i have the codex for every army I own - I also carry photocopies of the relative pages, too much is filler, less wear and tear.

If you own a book you are allowed to make copies for yourself - just like you can make copies of cd's or software discs you own - completely legally - give of sell them to someone else - then there's an issue.

That being said - when they charge 30 bucks for a 70 page booklet and 70 for a 500 page hard bound book I can see why people would want to save some cash.

If GW really gave a rats butt about their customers they would offer a discount if you own the previous version of the rules. Cut out the title page as POP

I recent bought updated book(non GW tattoo related book), $250 bucks, but if you sent in your previous printing they sent you a refund of 100 bucks - this is exactly why I had no hesitation on buying the update. A 20 dollar credit would go a long way to ensuring I would buy the next version.

I like the pirate lingo idea warboss suggested and will be incorporating it into game play...

Mind you if they wanted to GW would make a killing selling codecs electronicly

IMHO the first thing you should buy for an army is the book. If you can't spot the cash for that then you don't need to be in the hobby.

barlio wrote:IMHO the first thing you should buy for an army is the book. If you can't spot the cash for that then you don't need to be in the hobby.

So, I'm thinking of playing Necrons but I don't have the money on me right now to buy the codex. So I should tell the hobby to shove it because I don't have enough money?

yeah,
I think that the point is clear, if you can't afford a codex, this isn't the hobby for you.

Panic...

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:So, I'm thinking of playing Necrons but I don't have the money on me right now to buy the codex. So I should tell the hobby to shove it because I don't have enough money?

I like how people always refer to the 'hobby' as something that lives or breathes....

But to relevancy! I have no problem personally playing a person with a printed out codex. Nor do I have problems playing someone with paper cut outs for models... As long as the cut outs were of the right thing.

My interest comes from the game playing. What others do affects me how? It makes my experience of the battle no less interesting.... I mean, these are little plastic toy soldiers, and Goddammit, I'm going to have fun playing with them regardless of what you do.

Now I agree taking such items to a FLGS would be totally crass and akin to a slap in the face.

Also, just for your information, I have my codex and don't play with paper cut outs.

If you are going to collect the army, then yes you should buy the book.

That being said, when I bought the new SM codex the spine gave out within a week, as did its free replacement (gw was good about replacing it). Given the poor quality of the bindings on GW books, I have since photocopied mine and now I play only with the photocopy.

To tournaments I always bring the original as well for show, but I do not always bring it to FLGS to play a pick up game. This has caused the occasional minor issue, but honestly overall has been less hassle than the stupid book falling apart all the time.

panic wrote:I think that the point is clear, if you can't afford a codex, this isn't the hobby for you.

Oh please, do I need a book just to model and paint?

bsohi wrote:I like how people always refer to the 'hobby' as something that lives or breathes....

Well, shows what you know

It does not bother me at all whether or not someone I am playing is using a pirated codex or not; as long as it is all together.

I've downloaded my share of music and video so I can't really act put out by someone who has downloaded a pirated pdf.

I've downloaded codex pdfs before they hit the shelves; more to check them out than anything. Any army I have chosen to play I've bought the codex for.

Like Him^ I don't actually care. As long as they know their army rules it's all good. Having to tell my opponent how to play his army for him is a bit much (because I know it better than he does).

I'm not interested in whether they use GW models, bits, paints, glue, tools or flock either or even if they can play "like they have a pair".

If someone has owns the army, and uses it, I would expect them to have the codex, but if they are just testing it, or writing lists with it I would be perfectly fine with that.

Illegal downloading pirates > Copyright whinging ninjas.

but I digress.. I dont care as long as the rules are at the game and in english..

GW japan offers downloads of all dexs.. in japanese however.

I would never use a downloaded codex, unless of course it was offered by GW for free.

Would i be offended by someone using one? I never thought about it because i dont know anyone who would. I only play with my gaming group of around 30 guys, we buy all of our GW stuff.

I equate downloading the codexes from torrent or whatever as the same as downloading music, movies, or roms for emulators: illegal.

I don't personally like breaking the law, others may, but i dont.

I also like having the physical book in my hand; btw i own all 3 vraks books; I don't think i'd even think of downloading a codex because i only play a handful of armies and i love them so much i would feel i am disgracing them by not owning the actual book.

avantgarde wrote:I hate gamers with printed codexes, it gives off a lack of respect for your opponent. I remember playing a pick up game against a BA player a few months ago and he had a printed off dex. If someone is going to be a dick I'm going to be a dick right back so I started changing the rules on him like my Black Templars had 6++, Preferred Enemy and +1S all at the same time and I wouldn't let him look at my codex to confirm. He got the message and never came back to the store.

Now that that is taken care of, I DLed the codices BEFORE I decided on an army to get an idea of what I wanted to play, then proceeded to buy my first army and dex. Now I have em all on disk as reference for YMDC at work, if only I could beat Gwar! at the posting...

EDIT: Forgot ebay, I picked up a collection of the codices from RT era to current for $70 to justify my keeping the digital copies to myself.

I have found the Codices to be very poorly produced for the price, the spine breaks and you're left with a very shoddy looking book very quickly.

Nonetheless I do buy the codex or army book for each army I own. I do get a friend to download the other ones and I read them on my computer.

There is no way in hell I will buy the codices for armies I don't collect but I wish to understand how they function and to that end I do maitain electronic copies.

I don't think anyone should be expected to buy a codex just for looking at ideas to beat that army, GW have enough ways of tricking us out of our money, if you like having a book then it's up to you but if I bought every codex / army book i've ever looked at then I would all the books and very little money for models.

I don't mean to be aiming at anyone with this but if you say you want other people to get the real book just because you have it, does that mean they can't buy the models cheaper from ebay or an independant stockist for less because you payed the full price for them.

just because other people have done something different if it's more practical I say good luck to them.

Before I used to not care if someone used a downloaded Codex. For the most part GW is the money vampire draining us dry with new editions and army books everytime we turn around. So alittle bit of fist raising against them I didn't mind. That being said I heard of a moment at the local store where someone downloaded a codex that many people had not read and went into the pdf and changed some of the special rules to their benefit. Since then If you don't own it you don't play it.

RustyKnight wrote:

malfred wrote:I think he meant he made the copy.

I meant a link to the copyright laws that allow that, haha. I suppose my request does look rather dubious.

The Berne Convention is the statute that most countries conforms to.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/overview.html

I buy the models long before I buy the book. So I find a pdf on the webs, or I borrow a book.

Otherwise I may have to buy a book again before I play with the completed army. See Space marines.

It seems some people are indignant that someone else is able to play the game without spending as much as they have.

It strikes me as being upset that your opponent got his army for $5 at a rummage sale, and you had to pay retail.


How do people stand on the following scenario.

My friend buys a codex. He copies it for himself. I play the same army, so I use his copy, and he uses the original.

Or this. A friend of mine makes copies for the entire group everytime he buys an army book or set of rules.

I have never encountered someone using a "copied" codex, but I wouldn't be happy to play them if I did.

Codex's are probably one of the better value for money items GW produce, they are also of good quality.

There is no real difference between this and downloading movies illegaly, in which case rather than arrse about with a shoddy copy, just go and steal one of the shelf of your local GW, there is little difference. You would still effectively be using something which doesn't belong to you without the owners permission.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:

panic wrote:I think that the point is clear, if you can't afford a codex, this isn't the hobby for you.

Oh please, do I need a book just to model and paint?

No, you need it to play.

I'm not against having archive copies of books you own. I do take issue w/ people not purchasing codex's for armies they are playing. If you don't buy the book for financial reasons, you are focused on the wrong place to save money. If you aren't buying it to 'stick it to the man,' GTFU. $25 for rules and fiction is not that bad.

Would I be a dick and not play against someone w/o the bound copy? No, people need to grow up and not inflict their anger and self-control issues at others. In the future I may politely state that I would rather not play w/o the codex's on the table, but never insinuate that a photo-copied or pdf version is theft.

Meh
Might get 'crons and sm codices for reference. (I own them)

Maybe the tau one as well (have tau player friend)

squilverine wrote:Codex's are probably one of the better value for money items GW produce, they are also of good quality.

I hope you are kidding. I coddle my codex' like they are infants every time I handle them yet they still manage to fall apart. I had a friend who had pages fall out of his new Tau book within the first week, who then took it back and got GW to exchange it only to have the next book begin falling apart a few weeks later. Brutal quality.

Majesticgoat wrote:

squilverine wrote:Codex's are probably one of the better value for money items GW produce, they are also of good quality.

I hope you are kidding. I coddle my codex' like they are infants every time I handle them yet they still manage to fall apart. I had a friend who had pages fall out of his new Tau book within the first week, who then took it back and got GW to exchange it only to have the next book begin falling apart a few weeks later. Brutal quality.

I still have every single codex I've bought since 2nd ed. They've all gone through multiple moves and being rough handled by me and people I loan them out to. I've never ONCE had a Codex fall apart on me. I've never seen one fall apart that wasn't mishandled, either(the only 2 I've seen fall apart was one had a cover come clean off from being walked on too much and the other was ripped in half because of the same thing). Until I personally watch one disintegrate for no reason, I will continue to believe that any Codex coming apart is due to general mishandling(such as folding it over so that the covers and binding are on the inside, perfect bounds CAN NOT take that).

You're extremely lucky then. I've seen four Space Marine codexes fall apart within a week of purchase, and all in the same place...the elites page comes out. Four different codexes this is. And my friend got an extremely badly misprinted High Elves army book a while back. Pages out of order, assuming they weren't missing altogether.

In fairness, the new Guard codex, the latest one I've gotten,is holding up well. But the Ork and Marine ones are looking a bit ragged.

I am not your mamma. Its not my place to babysit you and tell you what you can and can't do.

It is here on Dakka Mod.

Maybe when they made a codex in 2nd Ed they made it right? I do not flatten the spines at all. I actually make great considerations to slightly pinch the book beyond the spine when possible so that I do not have to actually bend the page at the spine or the spine at all.

That was weird, did someone's post just disappear?

I'd use a printed pdf for Forgeworld rules as they are about $100 a book here in the States and that's an insane price to pay for a rulebook. I don't so far, but I would.

I would also take a printed copy of the one page I need or so to take a baneblade, ally, or some other unit that isn't in my main codex.

I really don't care what other people do as it's their business.

mortal888 wrote:I really don't care what other people do as it's their business.

Valuable insight.

I play the game to play the game. I will play against your printed codex and cardboard cut outs any day of the week. I will judge a person on what type of challenge they gave me and if it was a friendly experience. Someone else being gouged on the cost of a codex just like I was doesn't really add to my experience much tbh.

@ everyone who says this is bad or wouldn't play with someone with a printed codex:

The amount of anti-social elitism seen here is amazing. Does it really matter if the rules the person is using is on shiny bound paper, flat draft paper, or a greasy piece of cardboard that serves as an official army list while the codex is in the person's head? This IS a GAME, isn't it? Isn't the point of it to have fun, hopefully get a few good laughs, and then maybe catch a beer or two afterwards? I'm sorry if your opponent skipping the $30 on a codex secretly fills you with guilt over the amount of money you poured into a book that fell apart on you after 3 months of use. It doesn't me. Hell, someone could field a Space Wolf army out of bottlecaps against me if they wanted to, so long as they can keep track of what is what. This game is a moneysink, and costs more than what it's worth. If people want to circumvent that cost, I'm not a "good" enough person to tell them not to. I'm glad there are enough of you who have such honest and perfect lives to be able to vigilantly police this without tire or hypocritical guilt.

And in case you're wondering, I have all of my armies purchased and modeled.

I also own (in GW published form) the latest:
Imperial Guard
Witch Hunters
Daemonhunters
Tyrnids
Space Marines
Chaos Space Marines
Tau

Note that I only actually play half those armies.

@ everyone else:

I'm in the St. Louis, MO area. Let me know if you want to play a game sometime.

I suspect the issue comes down to:

Playing with friends or playing in a store/tournament.

If you play with your friends, go hog wild. Whatever they'll let you get away with.

If you're going into a store, man up and buy your codex. Fair, unfair, or pineapple, that store probably makes their money selling the game you're playing.

I find those who would refuse to play someone who didn't have a "legal" codex amusing.
Those who threated violence upon said codex are... amusingly ITG. No such action would happen in person.
While a store owner would have the right to react that way in his store, doing so would be an atrocity from a customer service stand point, since you don't know the situation.

Although I have yet to do it, I *WILL* download copies of all of the codices I own that are arranged in the new, stupid, split format.
I will cut out all of the rules and arrange them in a sensible format for me.
THOSE will be the codices I game with.

Don't like it? I don't care.
Tear it because you don't? Try again whe you wake up. lol

People who make assumptions about copied codices are more TFG than the TFG with illegal copies.

Eric

For those who are flipping out over anybody who is arguing against the use of pirated/copied codicies just relax. The issue that I personally have is that not owning an original codex can become a slippery slope. Who's to say that the pirating/copying started/ended with their codexes? Maybe it's a rule book. Would you play with somebody who has a few "select" pages of the rule book? No, of course not. You expect somebody that is playing the game to have a copy of the rules.

We're not saying that those who don't own the book are evil people. If you own a copy of an original and keep it at home, but bring a personal copy then that is fine. I seriously doubt that anybody would fault you for that.

From my personal experience (and this is with one person of late) I've seen how irritating it is for someone not to have the original. I've asked said person to explain part of their armies special rules. This person did not have the original, just the pages of the Codex with stats, points, and options. We made it through the game, but the game was lacking because of my opponents lack of information. Not having access to the real thing is frustrating.

Of course that is my opinion, take it with a grain of salt, or whatever you may choose to do.

Frazzled wrote:That was weird, did someone's post just disappear?

I was having issues posting in this thread. I responded to you and it never appeared but I was able to see it in my profile.

In the case of Blood Angels, I have no choice - C: BA is only available via PDF.

squilverine wrote:I have never encountered someone using a "copied" codex, but I wouldn't be happy to play them if I did.

Codex's are probably one of the better value for money items GW produce, they are also of good quality.

There is no real difference between this and downloading movies illegaly, in which case rather than arrse about with a shoddy copy, just go and steal one of the shelf of your local GW, there is little difference. You would still effectively be using something which doesn't belong to you without the owners permission.

What about people like me?

I use copied codex and copied summary sheets?

LunaHound wrote:What about people like me? I use copied codex and copied summary sheets?

I could get behind dragging you behind the woodshed for a whuppin
I think *where* is as important as why.
If your LGS lets you get away with a photocopied codex or a print of the condensed version often available on filesharing sites, or in competiton it sets a bad precedent. Were I a LGS owner, or manager (Ah for the days of my underpaid youth), I'd put you out personally and as politely as possible because your book is no more or less valuable than the guy with a greasy, fingerprinty one with cheeto dust on it despite personal preferences on treating books.

In someone's home its a different story.
I personally think its rude to the other players and projects a sense of entitlement. Conversely I'd feel mildly embarrassed comparing the quality of my painting to yours Luna, and feel I was being mildly rude to you as part of the same gaming group not to aspire to that level.

*raise hand meekly*

I use the printed BA codex...

Oldgrue wrote:

LunaHound wrote:What about people like me? I use copied codex and copied summary sheets?

I could get behind dragging you behind the woodshed for a whuppin
I think *where* is as important as why.
If your LGS lets you get away with a photocopied codex or a print of the condensed version often available on filesharing sites, or in competiton it sets a bad precedent. Were I a LGS owner, or manager (Ah for the days of my underpaid youth), I'd put you out personally and as politely as possible because your book is no more or less valuable than the guy with a greasy, fingerprinty one with cheeto dust on it despite personal preferences on treating books.

In someone's home its a different story.
I personally think its rude to the other players and projects a sense of entitlement. Conversely I'd feel mildly embarrassed comparing the quality of my painting to yours Luna, and feel I was being mildly rude to you as part of the same gaming group not to aspire to that level.

Nono i meant , i own actual codex , but i still photocopy them to use /play and keep the original copy safe at home.
I remember first doing this when someone borrowed my new codex and i think its deliberate , he wrinkled EVERY page he turned .
This is what i normally use: ( well back when i still play , so they are OOP now )

See?? Luna is smart to bring copies of the summary sheets!

SPARKEYG wrote:I'm not against having archive copies of books you own. I do take issue w/ people not purchasing codex's for armies they are playing. If you don't buy the book for financial reasons, you are focused on the wrong place to save money. If you aren't buying it to 'stick it to the man,' GTFU. $25 for rules and fiction is not that bad.

Would I be a dick and not play against someone w/o the bound copy? No, people need to grow up and not inflict their anger and self-control issues at others. In the future I may politely state that I would rather not play w/o the codex's on the table, but never insinuate that a photo-copied or pdf version is theft.

No anger or self control issues here mate.

Also I wasn't insinuating that it was theft I was stating that it is. The bottom line is that taking/using something without paying for it is stealing. I wouldn't get angry with that person, I would simply say that I would rather not play them unless they own a copy of the geniune codex.

Having PDF's or copies of old codex's which the company has released for this type of use is fine, as is making copies of a codex you already own, as long as it is just for personal use.

With regards to quality issues I have always found GW's books to be pretty sturdy, but I have heard of some being prone to falling apart.

I think that from now on I'm not going to play anyone with out their own copy of the codex for there army, and not a printed PDF. If you can spend hundreds of dollars on mini's and cases, pony up the money for the damn codex. I'm glad someone started this post, I've been on the fence so I'm getting off the fence now.

If someone is trying out an army they arnt sure yet to buy, then I dont care if its a print out. I wouldnt want someone to dump money on an army and dex just to say, oh I suck with them.
I do however have print outs at my table, for rules quarries. I agree that once you decide you like said army, its time to man up and get the damn book.

Anarchyman99 wrote:I think that from now on I'm not going to play anyone with out their own copy of the codex for there army, and not a printed PDF. If you can spend hundreds of dollars on mini's and cases, pony up the money for the damn codex. I'm glad someone started this post, I've been on the fence so I'm getting off the fence now.

How do you guys know whether you are playing against someone with printed internet downloaded codex
vs
someone that made photocopies of the real codex but just chose to use the copy and not original?

It doesn't bother me. I can see it bothering some of the more hardcore gamers and that.
But Im too chilled I guess.

I think we're all missing the point. GW is in the business of game models, not in the business of game rules.

Thor665 wrote:I think we're all missing the point. GW is in the business of game models, not in the business of game rules.

I'm sorry, I seem to be confused. there's this corporate logo in the bottom right corner of the codex, on the spine...Perhaps it isn't their core business, but its most definitely their business.

I want to reiterate that I have no problem with maintaining a backup of your data - digital or no. I don't agree with whipping out a photocopied codex at your LGS - I think its rude to your host.

How dare you make a backup copy of an item you own and use *IT* instead of the copy you purchased, so that the original remains in good condition!

You probably hate Jesus, too.

; )

MagickalMemories wrote:
You probably hate Jesus, too.
; )

I'm fair. I give all the supernatural attributes the same credence I give someone at Operating Thetan 4+. Its just my thing.

Oldgrue wrote:I'm sorry, I seem to be confused. there's this corporate logo in the bottom right corner of the codex, on the spine...Perhaps it isn't their core business, but its most definitely their business.

You would think so, wouldn't you?

i play with downloaded and printed forgeworld books. mind you i use only one page and thats the reaver titan.

I have downloaded all the codex so i can read them and keep myself uptodate on my rules i own an auctualy copy of the rules for the armies i play.

personally I do not care what the other person does as long as the codex is accurate.

Thor665 wrote:You would think so, wouldn't you?

Yeah, I'd think they'd be into making good rules too, but we get cheap perfect bound books

Oldgrue wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
You probably hate Jesus, too.
; )

I'm fair. I give all the supernatural attributes the same credence I give someone at Operating Thetan 4+. Its just my thing.

Uh-oh, you just brought in religion. It is now my civil duty to club you for insulting our Lord. It's okay to treat Heimdall and Apollo as fictional characters, but you damn well better not mock Christianity.

Thor665 wrote:I think we're all missing the point. GW is in the business of game models, not in the business of game rules.

They sell both, though I would agree that the models drive the business...

For my Game-of-choice I have both PDFs and hardcover. I find I really like both for different reasons. The hardcover is better for actual gaming use and easier to read for long sections or a few minutes here and there.

The PDF is great for portability, like making army lists while traveling. There's also the search feature and ease of updates, too.

I certainly think people should buy their books. i don't know if I'd stop playing someone using a unauthorized copy, but I do think it's ripping off the company that produces it. It's never come up, personally. I guess I'd treat it like I do unpainted models: It's disrespectful, but if it doesn't persist, I don't really mind.

I don't buy the "I won't buy stuff because I don't respect the company" as I feel it's a cop-out. If you don't respect the company, don't do business with them at all. Much the same with music and such.

Why? Because there's no *possibility* that at some point a short swarthy man ran about trying to sell a book of 'do' and 'don't' to roman citizens? "Chicken Soup for the Athenian Soul" is somehow a new idea? Some pre-Aristotlean Tony Robbins is just as likely to have been running around hawking his fevered writings hoping to make the world a better place.

Heimdall is legit, quit bad-mouthing my ancestors' gods!

Thor665 wrote:I think we're all missing the point. GW is in the business of game models, not in the business of game rules.

Indeed, and they've apparently admitted this themselves. So why do they insist on charging inflated prices for their rulebooks anyway?

And my god could beat up your god.

I have every codex on PDF. but my IG and Tau army have original codexs. I just got the others for the fluff. I mean who has enough money to have it printed out? That money should be spent on either more troops or in fact put towards an original codex. in closing, its fine to have PDFs, but out of principle one should buy the original codex!

The amount of anti-social elitism seen here is amazing. Does it really matter if the rules the person is using is on shiny bound paper, flat draft paper, or a greasy piece of cardboard that serves as an official army list while the codex is in the person's head? This IS a GAME, isn't it? Isn't the point of it to have fun, hopefully get a few good laughs, and then maybe catch a beer or two afterwards? I'm sorry if your opponent skipping the $30 on a codex secretly fills you with guilt over the amount of money you poured into a book that fell apart on you after 3 months of use. It doesn't me. Hell, someone could field a Space Wolf army out of bottlecaps against me if they wanted to, so long as they can keep track of what is what. This game is a moneysink, and costs more than what it's worth. If people want to circumvent that cost, I'm not a "good" enough person to tell them not to. I'm glad there are enough of you who have such honest and perfect lives to be able to vigilantly police this without tire or hypocritical guilt.

Excellent post.

I personally have no problems with copied codexes/books etc as long as they are fully complete and reasonably legible.
Something that is missing 1/2 the army list and has been savaged by a loveable if overzealous pet isnt going to help anyone.

In addition its all well and good spouting you have this and that, all offical, all above board, what about the kids and yes I do mean kids that rly on their parents that dont have the disposable income at hand?
Economic elitism FTL, Im afraid.

There is the other argument though that it hurts GWs business in the long run.
Now I can see where that comment is going but lets say, sales of new codexes dropped to say 20% worldwide, what do you think the implicatons would be for other prices / GWs view of their market.
I see profits are down for them already over the last 2 years and whilst I do have some issues with GWs pricing policy in certain areas and lack of quality in others, all in all I think most of us respect them to some degree and what they provide for us - which is fun.

The New Romance wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Not having a offical dex shows lack of respect for GW, not you, your club or your FLGS.

That's why I'm perfectly okay with pirated/printed/whatever unofficial codices, because it just gives GW the finger. You're already buying their expensive miniatures in order to play, I think that's enough. After all, they're a miniatures company, not a rules company, right? I mean, there's so many threads on Dakka where GW is attacked for this and that, and yet people seem to buy everything they publish - and afterwards still be angry with GW and, obviously, even with people who sort of avoided the GW money trap. I can understand the feeling of being cheated when you buy a real rulebook and others just download it, but just a little. After all, nobody has forced you to do so, especially when you're not 100 % convinced of GW. If you are, other's wrongs shouldn't really bother you.
It's pretty much the same as being angry with someone who owns an MP3 player or iPod or something, because there's no way in hell all of those 40 GB of music are legit. If you apply the same standards to that, most posters in this thread ought to be angry with nearly the whole world. I for one am not angry when buying an original CD, nor has anyone ever been with me because I might own some MP3s that weren't so paid-for.

QFT

ricekake87 wrote:I have every codex on PDF. but my IG and Tau army have original codexs. I just got the others for the fluff. I mean who has enough money to have it printed out? That money should be spent on either more troops or in fact put towards an original codex. in closing, its fine to have PDFs, but out of principle one should buy the original codex!

So not paying for codexes that you have a pdf copy of is okay? Where do you draw the line? Is it okay for me to download black library books without paying for them? How about any books? Why should I ever pay for books by your logic, I'm not made of money!

Ratius wrote:In addition its all well and good spouting you have this and that, all official, all above board, what about the kids and yes I do mean kids that rly on their parents that dont have the disposable income at hand?
Economic elitism FTL, Im afraid.

"Won't somebody think of the children?" :(

The kids should be learning a very useful lesson about living in the real world:
If you can't afford it, you can't have it. Save up your pocket-money/paper-round money and buy it when you can afford it.

Teaching them that it's OK to steal luxuries, if they can't afford them (or even if they can) is not my idea of a good way to live.

Amen.

Teach them to listen to the radio and go to libraries, where content is free.

ph34r wrote:So not paying for codexes that you have a pdf copy of is okay? Where do you draw the line? Is it okay for me to download black library books without paying for them? How about any books? Why should I ever pay for books by your logic, I'm not made of money!

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about someone using "counts as" or using a non GW model to represent something?

Thor665 wrote:

ph34r wrote:So not paying for codexes that you have a pdf copy of is okay? Where do you draw the line? Is it okay for me to download black library books without paying for them? How about any books? Why should I ever pay for books by your logic, I'm not made of money!

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about someone using "counts as" or using a non GW model to represent something?

Irrelevant .

LunaHound wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

ph34r wrote:So not paying for codexes that you have a pdf copy of is okay? Where do you draw the line? Is it okay for me to download black library books without paying for them? How about any books? Why should I ever pay for books by your logic, I'm not made of money!

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about someone using "counts as" or using a non GW model to represent something?

Irrelevant .

I will concede it is irrelevant to the specific question of playing with someone with a printed out codex, but it is not irrelevant to my curiosity nor to perhaps a deeper understanding of what mental differences someone draws between the two 'infractions' against the game developers. I'm curious how a more hard line person reacts to the latter. I see no reason to dismiss my question out of hand.

Thor665 wrote:
I will concede it is irrelevant to the specific question of playing with someone with a printed out codex, but it is not irrelevant to my curiosity nor to perhaps a deeper understanding of what mental differences someone draws between the two 'infractions' against the game developers. I'm curious how a more hard line person reacts to the latter. I see no reason to dismiss my question out of hand.

I answered irrelevant because i think the reasons for the 2 choices can be very different , here is what i meant:

- A person specifically uses internet downloaded codex and doesnt own a real codex is trying to avoid paying.
However:
- A count as model can very well be because the alternative looks better esthetically , and they are still atleast paying for it.

I totally understand and would agree with you , if you compared to dled codex is equal to illegal recasts of miniatures.

LunaHound wrote:I totally understand and would agree with you , if you compared to dled codex is equal to illegal recasts of miniatures.

Playing with a printed out codex does not necessarily equal playing with a downloaded codex (for instance, what if two people went in halfsies on a codex and one used a copier to get a copy in order to play his army. Or maybe they asked to copy pages from someone else's codex so they didn't need to reference a store/friend copy)

What I would point out as similarities betwixt and between a printed codex and 'counts as' or non-GW models in an army is that they can both be being used to test things that have not been purchased, or as a stop gap for things that are currently out of the price range of the consumer, or that they consider too expensive.

I use some (poorly) scratch built Drop Pods made out of PVC pipe. I don't feel it is worth my money to pay $30 a pop to purchase GW drop pods. I am thus denying GW profit and yet still being able to play my drop pod army.

How is that any different that getting a (poor quality/incomplete) printout of a set of rules for an army because you don't want to pay $30 for some paper and a thin bit of fluff. (heck, the evil codex person is denying GW less profit then I am)

Is the person using a printout more or less evil then someone using a store copy of a codex? Are they more or less evil then my scratch built Drop Pods?

Thor665 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:I totally understand and would agree with you , if you compared to dled codex is equal to illegal recasts of miniatures.

Playing with a printed out codex does not necessarily equal playing with a downloaded codex (for instance, what if two people went in halfsies on a codex and one used a copier to get a copy in order to play his army. Or maybe they asked to copy pages from someone else's codex so they didn't need to reference a store/friend copy)

What I would point out as similarities betwixt and between a printed codex and 'counts as' or non-GW models in an army is that they can both be being used to test things that have not been purchased, or as a stop gap for things that are currently out of the price range of the consumer, or that they consider too expensive.

I use some (poorly) scratch built Drop Pods made out of PVC pipe. I don't feel it is worth my money to pay $30 a pop to purchase GW drop pods. I am thus denying GW profit and yet still being able to play my drop pod army.

How is that any different that getting a (poor quality/incomplete) printout of a set of rules for an army because you don't want to pay $30 for some paper and a thin bit of fluff. (heck, the evil codex person is denying GW less profit then I am)

Is the person using a printout more or less evil then someone using a store copy of a codex? Are they more or less evil then my scratch built Drop Pods?

I see your point Thor , however a few points worth mentioning:
- GW's hobby aspect do encourage scratch builds . You are denying a direct profit yes , but scratch builds are what encourages the hobby's aspect. Indirectly , you are still supporting / glorifying GW's hobby crowd.
- I understand if the guy is borrowing a "temporary" codex to start , testing if they'll like the army. But usually when someone is already playing the army , chances of are they are still in the borrowing stage is quite slim.
thus if they dont buy a codex by then , they probably wouldnt at all.

LunaHound wrote:- GW's hobby aspect do encourage scratch builds . You are denying a direct profit yes , but scratch builds are what encourages the hobby's aspect. Indirectly , you are still supporting / glorifying GW's hobby crowd.

But cannot the same argument be made for someone acquiring rules on the cheap so he can play the army? By getting an army, painting, and playing he too is supporting the hobby irregardless of how he accessed the rules.

Both valid and good points to make, however.

Thor665 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:- GW's hobby aspect do encourage scratch builds . You are denying a direct profit yes , but scratch builds are what encourages the hobby's aspect. Indirectly , you are still supporting / glorifying GW's hobby crowd.

But cannot the same argument be made for someone acquiring rules on the cheap so he can play the army? By getting an army, painting, and playing he too is supporting the hobby irregardless of how he accessed the rules.

Both valid and good points to make, however.

The example you give via the "copied codex" might be more fitting along the line of ... Fan Made Chaos Dwarf Army Book , in that essence its similar to scratch builds i guess?

Selling codices and army books does seem important to GW. When an new codex comes out, for instance, you don't necessarily need (many) new models. But you must have the new codex. Plus, a gamer like myself doesn't play all the armies but does like to have all the codices (DE excluded) and I have bought every one of them. I don't think it's acceptable to pirate intellectual property just because you don't play the army and are just curious about it. Peruse it at your FLGS (and don't tell me one is not near, because I live pretty far from a decent one myself and still manage). If you are willing to buy the models to play an army, I can't see not going ahead and getting the dex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thor665 wrote:By getting an army, painting, and playing he too is supporting the hobby irregardless of how he accessed the rules.

Ahem, sorry.

I must sdmit the only time ive used one online is ti research different armies before i buy, its no differentto borrowing one from a library and then buy the codex with that army, a load of loose sheets of paper would be hassel, and if every one looked after there dexes they would last for ages lol

Teaching them that it's OK to steal luxuries, if they can't afford them (or even if they can) is not my idea of a good way to live.

Point conceded.

How do people feel about owning the original but using a photocopy?
akin to owning a CD but making a backup.

Ratius wrote:

Teaching them that it's OK to steal luxuries, if they can't afford them (or even if they can) is not my idea of a good way to live.

Point conceded.

How do people feel about owning the original but using a photocopy?
akin to owning a CD but making a backup.

Perfectly acceptable.
Photocopies, or print-outs from downloads are fine by me IF you have the original book. Keeping your (often fragile) Codex safe and in good condition is a good reason to use print-outs.
The problem is the burden of proof. If you've "left your Codex at home" and brought print-outs, should I complain, or take you at your word?

What I don't like much is the excuse I've seen a couple of times here "I only downloaded an illegal copy because I wanted the information in it".
"I only wanted it for the fluff"
"I only wanted it for the army lists"
"I only wanted it for the points costs/upgrades".

Maybe I'm in a minority, but I don't get this idea of "I only wanted to have the stuff without paying for it!" mentality.

Manchu wrote:Ahem, sorry.

Aw, c'mon now, you're acting like it ain't a word.

That particular foible makes me go wulfen. I was astonished to see it in your polished prose, of all people. Only Polonius's grammar slips shock me more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlackSpike wrote:Maybe I'm in a minority, but I don't get this idea of "I only wanted to have the stuff without paying for it!" mentality.

Agree 100%

Do you own the actual codex? Great.
Are you only using a printout/scan/copy you downloaded so I don't get my grubby hands all over your actual Codex because you'd like to keep your Codex in as good condition as possible? Cool.
Do you mind if I look at the actual Codex if something seems wonky to me? Awesome.

Can we play our game now please?

Bunker wrote:Do you own the actual codex? Great.
Are you only using a printout/scan/copy you downloaded so I don't get my grubby hands all over your actual Codex because you'd like to keep your Codex in as good condition as possible? Great.
Do you mind if I look at the actual Codex if something seems wonky to me? Great.

Can we play our game now please?

Seems reasonable to me. How can there be objections?

Manchu wrote:

Bunker wrote:Do you own the actual codex? Great.
Are you only using a printout/scan/copy you downloaded so I don't get my grubby hands all over your actual Codex because you'd like to keep your Codex in as good condition as possible? Great.
Do you mind if I look at the actual Codex if something seems wonky to me? Great.

Can we play our game now please?

Seems reasonable to me. How can there be objections?

This is the only objection (IMHO):

Bunker wrote:Do you own the actual codex?

1) No, I just have these print-outs.
2) Yes (hehehe, I don't really)

That's taken care of the "see the actual Codex if things seem weird" option at the bottom. People are going to lie to you and you can't always tell. But Bunker's idea seems generally spot on.

Manchu wrote:That particular foible makes me go wulfen. I was astonished to see it in your polished prose, of all people. Only Polonius's grammar slips shock me more.

Alliterative accolades allotments always accrue amicable avowments of avoiding anger arising adverbs.

Though seeing as how I was raised and ed-ju-ma-cated in Florida I'm lucky to understand how to type, much less avoid questionable words.

True.

TBH, the amount of money people spend on miniatures/paint/scenery/etc, a few teef on your own Codex and a copy of the Base rules isn't much.

This is abit semi off topic .

But just a reminder when you are borrowing someone's army book , even if its flipping through it for a minute , PLEASE BE CAREFUL.

I mean im confused , how 30+ year old doesnt know how to flip pages? they literally GRAB the paper by the center and flip it over . Making every page horribly damaged.

When I run DH with my with my DA, I dont bring my codex, I bring the print out of the units I use (Hosts, Inquisitors, and Assassins).
I also have every single codex in PDF on my little tablet PC.
It just makes things easier. Do I own the codexs? Only for the armies I play. The others help me look into other armies so I know what is what on the table, what they are capable of, and fluff.

Its hell of alot better than me buying every single codex like I did back in 3rd edition.

BlackSpike wrote:
This is the only objection (IMHO):

Bunker wrote:Do you own the actual codex?

1) No, I just have these print-outs.
2) Yes (hehehe, I don't really)

You forgot:
3) I didn't bring it

You see, once I have my codex copied and made into the format *I* want it in, I'm not bringing the stupid original with me. Why bother with bringing two copies of the codex? If all of the rules are there, then thre is no playable difference.

If all the rules aren't there... Well, then the guy's just an idiot.

Nobody's enjoyment of the game will be affected if their opponent is using a complete *gasp* copy of the codex. Anyone who says it would be has to be lying, putting up a facade to support their "righteous internet indignation" or a whiney little git. I don't see any other REASONABLE explanation why someone might make such a claim.

E

Preparing for them

MagickalMemories wrote: Preparing for them

You're them, mate, in this case.

You can never be sure if someone is lying to you, as I said, but you shouldn't go about expecting that everyone is lying to you. It's not at all about self-righteousness and when someone disagrees with your moral standards (and I know that you didn't imply this MM, someone else did earlier) they are not automatically a social elitist.

RustyKnight wrote:

Oldgrue wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
You probably hate Jesus, too.
; )

I'm fair. I give all the supernatural attributes the same credence I give someone at Operating Thetan 4+. Its just my thing.

Uh-oh, you just brought in religion. It is now my civil duty to club you for insulting our Lord. It's okay to treat Heimdall and Apollo as fictional characters, but you damn well better not mock Christianity.

Apollo, God of the Sun and Light, is displeased. As am I. Don't bash Apollo, without him there would be no medicine, and he is the leader of the Muses. He is as valid as any other deity to exist.


I don't actually own a Codex, but I'm getting one in the mail, hopefully soon. I don't have a printed one either, but I wouldn't turn up to my local GW with one.

Which one? Chaos Demons?

Manchu wrote:Which one? Chaos Demons?

Dark Eldar

Whoa!

They should procude 'no frills' versions of each codex, then everyone would be happy...wait..except GW ofc.

Manchu wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote: Preparing for them

You're them, mate, in this case.

You can never be sure if someone is lying to you, as I said, but you shouldn't go about expecting that everyone is lying to you. It's not at all about self-righteousness and when someone disagrees with your moral standards (and I know that you didn't imply this MM, someone else did earlier) they are not automatically a social elitist.

By *them* I meant the flames that would follow. not individuals... and thanks for pointing out that you weren't referring to me in that last quote. I'd have definitely read it as if you were.

As for lying to you or not, I always try to presume the best of people until they prove otherwise. It's worked for me for the better part of 38 years. I see no reason to change it now. : )

Eric

Agreed. I once heard a very wise saying: if there are two ways to take a thing, take it in the least offensive one.

Adash wrote:They should procude 'no frills' versions of each codex, then everyone would be happy...wait..except GW ofc.

They did this - it's called Codex: Dark Eldar.

We know we come from the Warp, have a bad attitude pointy armor, and wargear and a stat line.

In our update expansion we got some upgrade options for our two vehicles too.

Thor665 wrote:

Adash wrote:They should procude 'no frills' versions of each codex, then everyone would be happy...wait..except GW ofc.

They did this - it's called Codex: Dark Eldar.

We know we come from the Warp, have a bad attitude pointy armor, and wargear and a stat line.

In our update expansion we got some upgrade options for our two vehicles too.

Admittedly, weren't DE one of the 1st books for 3rd edition?

If I was actively playing 40k, I'd pay a few dollars each for rules-only PDFs of the codices, or even pay a few dollars a month for access to current info in a web-friendly format.

My main issue would be that I'd be worried GW would grow tired of it in a few months.

Not in games,its one book, man up, its £20 for a boxx of marines and you wont shell out 12 for one book, outside of games sure, fine if you just wanna check out what the enemy has without buying it then go for your life, but not to games, besides theres always smudges and missisng pages etc.

I won't refuse a game to anyone becuase of thier army or codex, but some of this stuff is really just over the top. When facing Kroot Mercenaries my opponent could give them fleet, infiltrate closer than 18" equip his shapers with several wounds and eviscerators. (loads of other stuff too) This mean that he was charging first turn, raping in combat and I couldn't shoot him becuase of 'some rule'. Regardless, it was a strange yet fun match and surprisingly close towards the end.