The rumblings in the warp are growing and it seems the Red Space Marines might be getting a new codex some time soon. We all know why GW would do it, marines are easy to release sionce 90% of the models are interchangeable, they sell well and they already have a ton of art ready to use.

We also know why they should not, with MEqs making up most of the armies it distorts the game and makes it less fun. Besides the BA already have a codex and models so odds are anyone who wants a BA army already has one and won't pay for a new one, just update the old.

So I humbly offer this list of better alternatives in the hope someone is listening.

10. Daemon Hunters - with no updates since 3rd edition and referring to a SM book that was 2 codexes ago and an IG book that was 1 codex ago this is by far the most out of date book and makes an already weak army even worse.

9. Witch Hunters - no updates since 3rd edition and virtually no new sisters models since 2nd this army needs new rules and plastics STAT!

8. Alien Hunters - the long-awaited 3rd Inquisition army would be easy to do (using mostly marine and IG models) and offer a new way to use them. Give them a high-tech commando look unlike the DH's knights and the WH's puritan look and you have a hit.

7. Squats/Demiurge - Squats were promised back in 1995 and the fact that Dakka's gallery has pages and pages of squat armies shows they still have potential. Give them some steampunk giant mining suits and watch the Warmachine and Bioshock players flock in.

6. Adeptus Mech - speaking of giant baroque warmachines...

5. Kroot - With the addition of one sprue for conversions GW could have a whole new race with a fun theme and name. KROOT-KROOT! Say it! It's fun!

4. Chaos Cults/Lost and the Damned - A no-brainer. THe Imperium's greatest foe, part of the game since Rogue Trader but somehow never had a codex or real models.

3. Chaos Legions - ANother no brainer and this one require almost nothing in the way of new models. Even if it only covers the 4 god-specific legions it will be a surefire hit.

2. THe Sensei - the Emperor's Immortal children are the last force fighitng for good in the 41st millennium, they fill a niche no other army can. Put out some character models and rules for Inquisition type warbands and you're done. Plus they're NINJA JEDI HIGHLANDERS! How can this lose?

1. THe Blood Angles - this little known chapter who use the power of geometry to destroy their foes has never had a codex but has over 200 images in the dakka gallery.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-search.jsp?dq=blood+angles

Surely they deserve a shot?

So there you go, and I'd like to remind everyone that I did this whole post without once mentioning the Pan Fo.

Where are the Dark Eldar on this list? I'm so lost.

Manchu wrote:Where are the Dark Eldar on this list? I'm so lost.

??? I don't understand the question.

WHy would Dark Eldar be on a list of armies that deserve a codex?

Perhaps you're thinking of my list of armies best forgotten and never mentioned again.

On second glance, that sort of seems like what you were already doing, Ordos aside. Well, that's too harsh. I'd be curious about an AdMech army and I think we're in desperate need of a Chaos Legions book. But squats? And kroot? Boooooo. Give me black latex-fetish elves over that garbage any day.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Perhaps you're thinking of my list of armies best forgotten and never mentioned again.

aka, Squ-*BAM*

Seriously, DE have a greater following than Kroot at least, who are quite at home in a Tau Codex.

And the Sensei? What? More SM? Or what are they? never even heard of them...in any case, they definatley don't deserve a codex...a mention in a Inquisition book would be fine though.

Some of the armies on here don't and shouldn't get a codex. DE has a following, and there's a lot of interest expressed in them. They deserve a codex.

Also, adding some of these codices will kill the already lagging update system...thus killing even more armies as GW then focuses more and more on the SM mothership. Sure, it would be nice to see some of these, but lets face it, the hobby can't take it.

Sorry if there's a bit of trolling, I just feel that DE don't deserve to be left by the wayside.

ChristmasMarine wrote:And the Sensei? What? More SM? Or what are they? never even heard of them...in any case, they definatley don't deserve a codex...a mention in a Inquisition book would be fine though.

Speaking of should be totally forgotten . . .

DE have a codex, and models, and plastics.

And are a terrible idea given form.

WHat more do DE players want?

Let someone else get models before GW wastes time and effort on their least successful modern army.

The models need retooling. Who'd play Space Marines if they still looked like this:


Ugh.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:DE have a codex, and models, and plastics.

And are a terrible idea given form.

WHat more do DE players want?

Let someone else get models before GW wastes time and effort on their least successful modern army.

someone else? they are the longest codex to go without an update...and even their FAQ is bad. Also, the models are the worst in 40k. DE players want a codex with updated rules, and some models that actually had a little bit of time put into them....oh, and btw, I think just about every infantry model other than warriors is metal.

And, let me ask, why is the idea terrible? I love their fluff.

@KK: Welcome to the hornets' nest, my friend.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:DE have a codex, and models, and plastics.

And are a terrible idea given form.

WHat more do DE players want?

Let someone else get models before GW wastes time and effort on their least successful modern army.

lol Says the guy who thinks ninjas in space is clever

Why would kroot need a codex? They're in the Tau, although in the Tau codex they do need some heroes.

People have been talking about a new Tau codex for 2010. Could we get a Kroot hero? Or maybe a Vespid? I doubt there will be more ally races added.

Ha vespids i have never seen anyone use them not even in a casual game. I think vespids are something that really doesnt fit with tau IMO.

Part of the Tau flavor (at some point) was that they are a multi-racial empire, unlike every other faction in 40k. But that seems to have been lost somewhere along the way. Maybe GW could just give some rules for Gue'la in the (potential) new codex. Also: From Tau, to Tau Empire, to Tau UN. Also also, thread derailed. Sorry, KK.

DE before BA!!! Accept nothing less!

ChristmasMarine wrote:

someone else? they are the longest codex to go without an update...and even their FAQ is bad.

AHEM




ANd I'm pretty sure Daemon Hunters came before the updated DE codex.

Also, the models are the worst in 40k.

Yet the SIsters who are even older are still lovely models. So are the metal IG. I would say the problem is not that GW in the 90s couldn't make good models, the problem is laytex-wearing elfs who are dark and also in space and into bondage but in a PG-13 kind of way just ain't such a hot idea.

And, let me ask, why is the idea terrible? I love their fluff.

What fluff?

THe Eldar are Elfs in Space. The Dark Elfs are Elfs who are Dark.

The Dark Eldar are the Elfs who are Dark and also in Space. They're a xerox of a xerox, a knock-off of a knock-off.

THeir 'theme' is they are PURE EVIL! But we already have an abundance of PURE EVIL! armies, Chaos Marines and Daemons being the closest. So the DE are PURE EVIL who are into torture and slavery but in a PG-13 sort of way.

But Orks and CSMs already have that niche filled.

So what are they? They're Eldar but with the weapons renamed. Dark Lances instead of Bright Lances and so on. Like I said a copy of a copy with no real room for growth. Let them wither and die with their big hats and razor-encrusted armor. Let something better take their place.

Kid_Kyoto wrote: Yet the SIsters who are even older are still lovely models. So are the metal IG. I would say the problem is not that GW in the 90s couldn't make good models, the problem is laytex-wearing elfs who are dark and also in space and into bondage but in a PG-13 kind of way just ain't such a hot idea.

What fluff?

THe Eldar are Elfs in Space. The Dark Elfs are Elfs who are Dark.

The Dark Eldar are the Elfs who are Dark and also in Space. They're a xerox of a xerox, a knock-off of a knock-off.

THeir 'theme' is they are PURE EVIL! But we already have an abundance of PURE EVIL! armies, Chaos Marines and Daemons being the closest. So the DE are PURE EVIL who are into torture and slavery but in a PG-13 sort of way.

But Orks and CSMs already have that niche filled.

So what are they? They're Eldar but with the weapons renamed. Dark Lances instead of Bright Lances and so on. Like I said a copy of a copy with no real room for growth. Let them wither and die with their big hats and razor-encrusted armor. Let something better take their place.

Like Space Ninjas? After all, theres NO way that idea can fail in a cynical world...

I fail to see what you pics prove, after all, I click on the squats link and it takes me to something from second edition. 2nd ed guard no less. So there wasn't even a codex then. And your pic asserts every reason why squats should not be brought back- from what it looks like, its a slayer with a gun. If they are going to bring Squats in, they better have a more decent backstory than that....

No then, to answer you posts. Their theme is the piratical race of 40k-something that, until they decided to try and kill Chaos with that godawful renegade codex, no other race did very well. The Greenskins aren't pirates, they fight because they love it. The CSM shouldn't be, in almost all instances of fluff they are revenge-driven warriors. Not pirates. The DE have their own role in 40k, and they do it very well. And if your going to go on about Squats, id suggest not bringing up copies again...after all, many of the beloved races of 40k are copies of fantasy races. Whats wrong with Dark Elves, when we have nothing wrong with Orcs, Elves, Ogres, and such doing the exact same thing quite happily?

The Sisters models still look good. Thats why they should wait. Give the DE, who have horrible models, better ones and watch as people come scrambling to play them. There has always been large interest expressed in DE- after all, everyone wants to be different. Most people are driven off by the impossibility of the rules and the ugliness of the models. All easily solvable problems. If GW put in a fifth of the time they do on SM on DE, they would be tremendous.

I fail to see any reason for your hate of DE, other than that you want 3 Inquisition codices, when its already the least played set of forces (GKs are barely even used any more, and whos ever seen a daemonhost on a table?).

The only valid point you make is that the aspects of DE shouldn't be PG 13. They do need to be more extreme. Other than that, though, your argument is rubbish.

Also, DE have the oldest Codex in the game. Not GK. Not SoB. Their codex actually says 2nd edition on it IIRC. So don't give me that stuff about them not being the oldest.

Once again, i apologize for any accidental trolling that might occur from my reaction to other peoples opinions.

Manchu wrote:The models need retooling. Who'd play Space Marines if they still looked like this:


Ugh.

Woaaaaaa whaT's the top left guy holding there?
It.. doesn't look so much as a weapon.. And what it could be scares me. >.>

DE really deserve a new, well, everything. Some of your idea could use some attention, but not a whole codex.

If GW were to base Warhammer on the popularity of the armies alone, we'd be playing "Space Marine: The Table Top Game"

No to Kroot, Sensei, and Squats. The rest I approve.

Vindicator#9 wrote:Ha vespids i have never seen anyone use them not even in a casual game. I think vespids are something that really doesnt fit with tau IMO.

They fit well but they are crap.

Blood angels have a freeware codex, who said they don't deserve a "real" codex?!

Btw, I agree with you on DH and WH. I'm kind of curious though, what kind of new and exciting forces would we get out of the "Ordo Xenos"? More black templars?

Give me SOB! Oh, and some other witch hunter goodness.

Who gives a skaven's ass about another SM codex... other then maybe Black Templars... or Grey Knights! Codex Grey Knights would be nice... Think of all the absurd prices GM could charge. a 1500pt army could set you back... oh.... $40k...

WOOOSH!!

10. Daemon Hunters - with no updates since 3rd edition and referring to a SM book that was 2 codexes ago and an IG book that was 1 codex ago this is by far the most out of date book and makes an already weak army even worse.

9. Witch Hunters - no updates since 3rd edition and virtually no new sisters models since 2nd this army needs new rules and plastics STAT!

8. Alien Hunters - the long-awaited 3rd Inquisition army would be easy to do (using mostly marine and IG models) and offer a new way to use them. Give them a high-tech commando look unlike the DH's knights and the WH's puritan look and you have a hit.

7. Squats/Demiurge - Squats were promised back in 1995 and the fact that Dakka's gallery has pages and pages of squat armies shows they still have potential. Give them some steampunk giant mining suits and watch the Warmachine and Bioshock players flock in.

6. Adeptus Mech - speaking of giant baroque warmachines...

5. Kroot - With the addition of one sprue for conversions GW could have a whole new race with a fun theme and name. KROOT-KROOT! Say it! It's fun!

4. Chaos Cults/Lost and the Damned - A no-brainer. THe Imperium's greatest foe, part of the game since Rogue Trader but somehow never had a codex or real models.

3. Chaos Legions - ANother no brainer and this one require almost nothing in the way of new models. Even if it only covers the 4 god-specific legions it will be a surefire hit.

2. THe Sensei - the Emperor's Immortal children are the last force fighitng for good in the 41st millennium, they fill a niche no other army can. Put out some character models and rules for Inquisition type warbands and you're done. Plus they're NINJA JEDI HIGHLANDERS! How can this lose?

1. THe Blood Angles - this little known chapter who use the power of geometry to destroy their foes has never had a codex but has over 200 images in the dakka gallery.

Most of the armies there will never get a codex (incl. Harlies or Exodites) or will not get a codex soon (incl. DE).
I'm convinced that BA will get a codex before all other armies in this list.

Current Codexs:

1. SM
2. SW
3. DE
4. BT
5. IG
6. DH
7. WH
8. Tau
9. Chaos Demons
10. CSM 4.0
11. DA
12. Nids
13. Crons

Thats all the current codexs, So If we combinde 6 and 7, we got an Inqusition book.

If we combinde 4, 11 and BA (There not included), we have one big SM chapters of the Imperium book!

If we get a Legions dex with Deamons, Legions and Renegade guard, thats combinding 9 and 10.

Now we got this:

1. Inqusition book
2. SM
3. SW
4. Chapters of the Imperium
5. Crons
6. Chaos Legions, demons and LatD
7. DE
8. IG
9. Tau
10. Nids

If GW does these changes in 2010, and updates DE and Tau, there be back on track.

A great premise for a thread. But what about the Tau and Necrons? Those poor bastards deserve all the help they can get.

olympia wrote:A great premise for a thread. But what about the Tau and Necrons? Those poor bastards deserve all the help they can get.

I think Tau will be considered next.
They have higher sales at the Asian market and deserve a new codex.

Kid,

You mention five armies that deserve a codex that have never had a codex before and, consequently, do not have any significant sort of a following. Why should they deserve a codex before Dark Eldar?

In all the tournaments you have attended and all the gaming groups you have played with in the last twelve months, how many Alien Hunters, Kroot, Adeptus Mechanicus, "Blood Angles," or Sensei players have you played against?

For myself, I play every Saturday and have been to four RTTs. I haven't seen a single one of those armies, not even as a "counts as."

I also notice you fall into the sad group of Imperio-philes; seven of the ten armies you listed are Imperial in nature.

In defense of the DE codex needing an update, you really can't compare the 2nd printing of the DE codex to Codex Daemonhunters. The 2nd printing of the DE codex was identical to the first printing with the inclusion of two pages of material that previously appeared in a white dwarf. All of the page numbers are identical, as is all the material on each page with the exception of an added page of vehicle upgrades that didn't exist. Everything else is identical down to the pictures of the models in the modeling section and the fluff in the back of the book.

Now, I do believe that Daemonhunters should get a codex before Blood Angels. I just agree with some of the previous posters assertion that you left a lot of armies off of the list and included some that have no business being there.

If I was King for a Day (or a few years is more like it based on GW's release schedule), here's my Next 10 Codexes:

1. Dark Eldar
2. Tau
3. Necrons
4. Nids
5. Chaos Marines
6. Lost and the Damned
7. Sisters of Battle
8. Ad Mech
9. Genestealer Cult
10. Grey Knights

Not necessarily in that order.

Next armies to be (re)released if i was in charge?

1. Dark Eldar
2. Inquisition forces
3. Tyranids
4. Necrons
5. Tau
6. Chaos marines
7. Angels of Death (DA, BA and BT)
8. Eldar (just to bring it to 5th)
9. LatD
10. Ad Mech

ahahahah Kid's hatred bears fruit...

It is funny you hate dark eldar but are happy with squats.. lol or space ninjas.

I like those geometry space marines.. they should definately get a codex..

I think it should go in this order:

- Tyranids. ( already set. ) *early 010*

- Dark spase elfs * mid 010*

- Blood Angels ( PDF dex? ) * late 010*

- Necrons ( more units ) *early 011*

- Tau ( better vespids.....we could also let them be nid food...) ( or let jervis write this one ) *mid 011*

- Black Templars + Dark Angels ( double dex release ) rewrite the codices and maybe a thunderhawk * late 011*

- Imperial forces ( ecclesiarchy = SOB / frateris militia, Ad mech , Grey knights ) *early 012*

- Chaos retirement fond. A few CSM and lots of cultists and traitor IG. *mid 012*

- Inquisition ( maybe a campaign book or part of apoc III or PS II ? ), Malleus / hereticus / xenos ( + assassins and assasins should be the only ally option in 40k ), *late 012*

- Eldar * early 013*

- Orks * mid 013*

- a new race * late 013*

- next edition, WH 42k * 014*

My opinion, discounting nids since they are getting one soon:

Tau-
Crons-
Dark Eldar-
LatD-
Adept-
rest dont matter to me... those 5 are pretty important, specifically the 1st 3, I mean, lets forgo the MARINES!MARINES!IMPERIUM!MARINES! and get some xenos goin, where is the xenos love!?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:The rumblings in the warp are growing and it seems the Red Space Marines might be getting a new codex some time soon.

So I humbly offer this list of better alternatives in the hope someone is listening.

BA need a Codex because they don't have a standalone printed book ATM. If BA are the Marines for next year, it's no biggie - SMs get a Codex every year anyways, so it might as well be BA.

Daemonhunters - HELL, NO! I like my Ld10 Psychic Hoods, Mystics and 10-pt 5-man Stormies with 10-pt Plasma Guns, thankyouverymuch. The absolute last thing I need is Robin to go in and muck the whole thing up. Leave DH alone!!!

Witchhunters - they don't have Mystics, but they do have reasonably-costed Sisters Allies which are vastly superior to IG Stormies (Sv3+, Scoring). Plus, they have the cool freakshow elements and Angels. No, thanks.

Alienhunters? - C: DH as a book built around 1 model (the classic GKT) was a failure, and building C: AH around a scoped bolter and fancy shoulderpad is an even worse idea. At least DH had RT-era RoC: StD list as a predecessor. AH has nothing. The whole =I= thing was a stupid stroke to Gav's ego, so good riddance to bad thinking. I hope this never gets created.

Squats - GW has these guys dead & buried, White Dwarf in space notwithstanding. For GW to re-release, this would be tacit admission that GW massively screwed the pooch by Squatting the Squats. Never gonna happen.

Ad Mech - This is a good idea, but it won't come out before BA.

Kroot - this idea isn't developed well. A GEQ HtH army, like Nids, but without MCs? And Fluff-wise, not techy to cover the gap? Beastmen in Space (tm), so it's not going anywhere.

Lost and the Damned - I agree this is no-brainer GEQ to add, but needs to be monetized. It probably requires a very big push. I would gladly see this before any other GEQ army gets launched or relaunched.

Chaos Legions - Yes, this would do OK, and I'm sure GW is saving it in their back pocket for a rainy day. The problem is marketing, as this releases just prior to a CSM Codex, so you have Cult CSM and non-Cult CSM Codices to release practically right on top of each other. Better have a big 40k event to make this push right. The only good way to do this is to tie Legions to the next 40k base set, as IG vs CSM, with CSM as the first book out the gate. Too bad the Mystery Box stunt proves GW just isn't that clever.

Sensei - We have DH already, and this is DH++. I can't see it.

THe Blood Angles - LOL. For a moment there, I was sure your last pick was going to be "Dark Eldar". Good one.

Screw BA! GW need to "squat" some armies and combinde some codexs. We need every army getting a new codex every three years. So every army gets to play atleast a year of that current edition.

EDIT: If GW can bring the number of Codexs down to 9, then they can do 3 codex releases a year. There not that idiotic, well I hope not....

Blood Angles FTW! I love geometry! And they're red!

I thought most your ideas are ok but why 3 listings for Inquisition they need 1 codex 3 or 4 branches of it all in one and bam your done. That'll be something I buy!

Squats? They need to eat gak and die horrible idea horrible models horrible everything please let them die no codex.

Ad mech is another codex I would LOVE to see I would by a crap ton of this stuff and put myself into debt to do it haha.

Kroot don't need one maybe a need online one like BAs got or an expansion in the next Tau codex.

And DE need one there are quite a few players they just don't play them much haha but theyve been waiting!

All new Dark Angels!!!
Describing how the Lion may be coming back and how he's teamed up with his (ever) trusted (?) Lord Cypher and reached some sort of accord with The Russ. The other missing Primarchs will return also.

I would'nt dish out 10

Dark Eldar

Inquistion *all the specialists*

Tau

Necrons

Chaos

But... they are gonna go through everyone else then the dark eldar!
Heed my words.

Space wolves and blood angels can suck a big one. Same for templars. They should just be included in the regular marine dex. No reason for this bouncing back and forth. What exactly makes blood angels different from wolves or templars. All are close combat armies.
one is drop pods, one is jump packs, one is LRCs.
You have your emogoth vamps, your fursuiters with rabies, and your bible thumpers. Its like the triumvirate of fail. Id rather see them all go the way of squats, and GW come up with a separate codex for the hawk lords before BA get a codex. Or at least update gimpy armies. Tau, Crons, Inquisition, oh and the dark eldar. Give these armies better models, rules and fluff. Seriously, cron players have been waiting for a good 6 years at least. Same for inquisition. Tau are one of the worst armies in 40k. Look at the ard boyz, no tau players at all.

Dont even get me started on dark eldar. But GW will just keep coming out with more hand to hand/marine armies.

Dark eldar fluff sucks. Its like half assed torture. I want a character with a 12 inch long 3 inch wide stick. This stick is coated in fish hook blades and icy hot lotion. He kills you by shoving it up your woohoo and pulling out your intestines through said orifice. Thats dark eldar.

And that is why DE are a different kind of evil.

As excited as I am by the SW codex release (just got it in the mail today), I do think the other factions deserve updating before more SM stuff comes out. I'd hve preferred a Tau book before the SW one, TBH.

I dont necessarily think that BA, BT, and SW shouldnt get dexs. But those shouldnt be priority for full length. If you look at 5th edition releases you have had orks, demons, marines, guard, space wolves.

Thats two marine, and three close combat armies. So now they announce the next release as nids, and then blood angels. Well that means you have 7 5th edition dexs, only two of which are not hand to hand emphasis. Not only does this skew the game in favor of one fighting style, but its unnecessary. The old BA codex sucked. But it had the marine one to back it up.

Other armies have been waiting much much longer. So sure release full length marine dexs. But not until you bring everyone up to date. And bring shooting back into the game.

Well, I say again, 40kRadio has reported that Tau are on the post-nidz horizon. (This new Tau dex will be my personal DE greens.)

The more you hate on the Dark Eldar the more they like it...the sick bastards.

Lord-Loss wrote:Current Codexs:

1. SM
2. SW
3. DE
4. BT
5. IG
6. DH
7. WH
8. Tau
9. Chaos Demons
10. CSM 4.0
11. DA
12. Nids
13. Crons

Thats all the current codexs, So If we combinde 6 and 7, we got an Inqusition book.

If we combinde 4, 11 and BA (There not included), we have one big SM chapters of the Imperium book!

If we get a Legions dex with Deamons, Legions and Renegade guard, thats combinding 9 and 10.

Now we got this:

1. Inqusition book
2. SM
3. SW
4. Chapters of the Imperium
5. Crons
6. Chaos Legions, demons and LatD
7. DE
8. IG
9. Tau
10. Nids

If GW does these changes in 2010, and updates DE and Tau, there be back on track.

Thats what they should of done from the get go. Seriously this crap with giving everything its own codex and such, is dumb. Ive always wondered why DH and WH didnt share a codex. They are pretty close to the same things. Oh thats right, if they all have a separate dex, thats more a chance for them to make money. A holes! The lot of um

@ LordLoss- isn't there some army called the Eldar who have a codex?

I too vote for a combined inquisition codex. However, DE and Necrons need new codices first and definitely before Tau. Both are several years older then the Tau but have only had one codex each, while the Tau have had two. I think there should probably just be one codex:chapters that aren't as cool/important as the Space Wolves, i.e. BA, DA, BT, & Salamanders.

I don't really get what the advantage (other than the preposterous suggestion that it would be better to pay $30 bucks for one codex rather than $25 for two each) would be to combining DH and WH. But I am open to explanations.

I don't think that the DH and Wh should be combined, their unit type is too different. But deathwatch aren't a chapter. They are a group of SM from a bunch of different chapters that don't really seem to have a good reason for being there. We have enough SM armies, we don't need another one.

And this argument should be more directed at the half-dozen SM chapter books....

Let me just say: there is a reason they included Blood Angel terminators in the Space Hulk set.

Lord-Loss wrote:Screw BA! GW need to "squat" some armies and combinde some codexs. We need every army getting a new codex every three years. So every army gets to play atleast a year of that current edition.

EDIT: If GW can bring the number of Codexs down to 9, then they can do 3 codex releases a year. There not that idiotic, well I hope not....

Yeah, and you know what those 9 codices would be right?

1. Space Marines
2. Blood Angels
3. Dark Angels
4. Space Wolves
5. Black Templar
6. Grey Knights (includes Imperial Guard allies)
7. Chaos Space Marines
8. Chaos Daemons (dual release with WHFB daemon book)
9. Aliens

Kid_Kyoto wrote:10. Daemon Hunters - with no updates since 3rd edition and referring to a SM book that was 2 codexes ago and an IG book that was 1 codex ago this is by far the most out of date book and makes an already weak army even worse.

9. Witch Hunters - no updates since 3rd edition and virtually no new sisters models since 2nd this army needs new rules and plastics STAT!

8. Alien Hunters - the long-awaited 3rd Inquisition army would be easy to do (using mostly marine and IG models) and offer a new way to use them. Give them a high-tech commando look unlike the DH's knights and the WH's puritan look and you have a hit.

7. Squats/Demiurge - Squats were promised back in 1995 and the fact that Dakka's gallery has pages and pages of squat armies shows they still have potential. Give them some steampunk giant mining suits and watch the Warmachine and Bioshock players flock in.

6. Adeptus Mech - speaking of giant baroque warmachines...

5. Kroot - With the addition of one sprue for conversions GW could have a whole new race with a fun theme and name. KROOT-KROOT! Say it! It's fun!

4. Chaos Cults/Lost and the Damned - A no-brainer. THe Imperium's greatest foe, part of the game since Rogue Trader but somehow never had a codex or real models.

3. Chaos Legions - ANother no brainer and this one require almost nothing in the way of new models. Even if it only covers the 4 god-specific legions it will be a surefire hit.

2. THe Sensei - the Emperor's Immortal children are the last force fighitng for good in the 41st millennium, they fill a niche no other army can. Put out some character models and rules for Inquisition type warbands and you're done. Plus they're NINJA JEDI HIGHLANDERS! How can this lose?

1. THe Blood Angles - this little known chapter who use the power of geometry to destroy their foes has never had a codex but has over 200 images in the dakka gallery.

You forgot Exodites. Space elves riding dinosaurs with frickin' laserbeams. I mean c'mon - it's a license to print money.

Considering nids and BA are a lock and looking at how GW likes to push an MEQ army every year my semi-wished prediction of what gets updated would be

Nids

BA

Dark Eldar

Necrons (I'm hoping they fulfil the need for an MEQ dex, they and DE need an update more than any other army. DE because of the models and Crons because they suckity suck suck)

Tau

DH or some kind of =][= book (Once DE are done that leaves DH and Crons as the oldest codecii and if we have to have marines once a year then that means chaos or DH)

Eldar (by this point there codex will probably be quite underpowered)

Chaos Legions

BT or DA (Da have a crap codex, BT have an old one and by this point in the cycle will be the second oldest)

LatD or WH depending on what they did with =][=

BT or DA


In terms of deserving an update BA don't have a codex so they get to have one.

Then Dark Eldar and Necrons are number one and two on the list. Dark Eldar still have a competitive codex but their models are atrocious, their fluff is minimal and their codex refers to rules form 2 editions ago. It is simply ridiculous the amount to which they've been left behind. In contrast Necrons have possibly the worst codex in the game for competitive value, only DH rivals it (and that is fine if used as allies). They could also do with a few more units and some more variation in army builds.

Then Tau need an update as the current 5th ed codecii have left this list trailing in the dust. They're still playable but they need a big power boost to get back into the main group of armies.

Then DH/WH needs to be addressed, brought into line with 5th ed and some design decisions need to be made regarding =][=. I know a lot of players don't want them to be touched as they fear losing allies and a lot of the weird units that are powerful since they weren't balanced for 5th. I personally agree but I still think a refresh would be nice if only to get some plastic sisters models finally.

After that if they can tone down the codex creep enough and do a quickie eldar refresh (and maybe fix DA) then all the current codecii will be roughly level. Like that will ever happen.


As for new armies

LatD - yes please. Playable rules for this army need to be available NOW! They comprise the most populous and common threat for the imperium in the background (with the possible exception of orks) but can't be played accurately on the tabeltop! That is pure and utter gak. The problem with the last approach was not producing any dedicated models so while they may have made slight boosts to their existing range (how many ogyrns did the LatD dex flog to make big mutants for example) it is impossible to track. I have no idea how you'd fix that but rules need to be available.

Chaos Legions - unless we're just plain getting a new chaos codex this needs to happen. Not for power reasons but to fix the boring.

Kroot - eh, similar problems as LatD but with a much more limited fluff background. They're fine staying with the Tau but maybe need to be expanded in the Tau list a little more (Perhaps an SC that removes Tau heavy support and elites but adds some new kroot units or at the very least the addition of knarlocs and the shaper council to the standard Tau list)

AdMech - sure, whatever. Its another Imperial force which doesn't excite me too much and the playstyle is basically guard but smaller and with some assaulty (aka orks) but the models should be fantastic and there will be probably be some fun and crazy war machines.

Xenos Hunters - the problems with xenos hunters are legion. Firstly unlike psykers and daemons which generally form a small element in most armies (the exception of course being Daemons) they would be specialists that specialise against eldar, orks, tau, necrons and nids. How do you balance that? The tools you need to fight nids and orks are very different to the tools you need to fight necrons or tau. What equipment fits into a xenos hunting frame that isn't just a multi-shot gun? Also they lack a strong ordo militant to base the army on. Deathwatch are after all just marines. Vet marines from many chapters admittedly but still jus another marine codex and a lot of their uniqueness was nicked by the sternguard. Alien allies and Rogue traders would be cool and everyone wants them but if you use any of the existing races you run into balance issues and inventing new ones raises huge design challenges (although admittedly opportunities too. Who doesn't want to run a pack of clawed fiends of the donorian sector, or ambulls).

The present situation with the trilogy unfinished feels slightly wrong but the xenos book just sits there emanating an enormous pile of problems like a rotting elephant carcass everyone is ignoring.

Sensei - No. Space ninja? No. Besides their supposed to be extraordinarily rare individuals fighting a lone crusade against chaos or at the most functioning as a small warband. They don't have an army. They don't have tanks, support, home bases or a variety of units. A sensei "army" consists of 10 guys wiping out hordes of daemons with their incredible psychic awesomeness.

If GW wants to bring them back then they are a HQ choice or a special character for daemon hunters.

Squats/Demiurge - no squats but yes please to demiurge. Considering we have elves in space, undead in space and orcs in space the dwarves in space motif really isn't out of place. They are a popular archetype too with a big fanbase. I say no too squats because the fluff was poorly developed, the name is awful and their aesthetic trips all over territory the space wolves already have (can't so slayers when the SW have lone wolves). Demiurge offers a blank slate to do dwarves in space and do it properly. And they offer the chance for a different playstyle too and not just slightly more fighty guard.

Hrud - Not a horrible idea. Basically a totally blank slate that anything can be done with. I'd rather see some more important elements of the backstory (=][=, admech, LatD) explored first though.

Manchu wrote:I don't really get what the advantage (other than the preposterous suggestion that it would be better to pay $30 bucks for one codex rather than $25 for two each) would be to combining DH and WH.

Combining the DH and WH =Inquisition= elements along with folding in Deathwatch for an =Inquisition= Codex works just fine...

... *after* restoring Sisters of Battle back to standalone Codex status.
____

ChristmasMarine wrote:But deathwatch aren't a chapter. They are a group of SM from a bunch of different chapters that don't really seem to have a good reason for being there.

And this argument should be more directed at the half-dozen SM chapter books....

Agreed. As a single Elite (or Troop) unit in C: =I=, Deathwatch would be a fine thing, akin to Legion of the Damned in C: SM.

That's water under the bridge.

KK has already listed most of the practical reasons for including BA with a new codex in the current release schedule looking into the 1st quarter of 2010. They are all good reasons. While the PDF codex is good (especially when compared to what DA got) I think every army deserves a full blown codex. Blood Angels will need a sprue with stuff like shoulderpads and whatnot like what BT, DA and SW got. I would love to see some new figurines released for Dante, Corbulo and Mephiston but I doubt that will be the case. It is easy for GW to fairly quickly develop and release a full blown codex for Blood Angels. We all know that SM in general are the most popular race... That's just the way it is.

I think that Dark Eldar will go the way of the Squats. They are not a popular army by any stretch of the imagination and that also is just the way it is. Phil Kelly did say at Adepticon two years ago that GW wants to do it right for them and supposedly Jes Goodwin was working on sculpting some new figurines for Dark Eldar. I just don't think the current amount of sales for this race over the past five years can make a good business case for re releasing this army. That said the bean counter mentality is often short sighted... for example I don't think orks were all that popular prior to their re release but now I'm sure the sales for this race is booming with the advent of their new codex and all the many new models. There is no reason why Dark Eldar could not be a popular army is the proper amount of resources was dedicated to this goal. But seeing that they are not popular now if it were my decision I would dedicate the time and resources to other more popular armies.

I don't see Tau deserving a new codex anytime soon... Of all the armies out there they got their second codex much sooner than most other races. Surely Necrons are much more deserving.

In regards to the Ordos, Chaos SM Legions and AdMech I think the Ordos are the most deserving. It could easily be three armies in one codex. I think GW needs to address the many problems inherent with Imperial allies. Personally I would like to see allies in general abolished. Case in point - the very broken inquisitor with two mystics. This special unit was created to counter daemons back when they were fielded in a CSM army and could assault directly from a deep strike. Lesser daemons in the current CSM codex can still do this but they are nothing comparable to the daemons you can field in a pure Chaos Daemons army. Inquisitor with 2x mystics is far too cheap for what you get and it can be overpowering/broken when fielded in an IG army for instance. I think a codex with all three branches of the Ordos will require a lot of tine and resources, as would a CSM Legion codex. If it were my decisions I would complete all the other armies first that don't have a 5th edition codex. Personally I don't see GW developing an AdMech army as you can do something very similar with the new IG.

G

I say Blood Angels need a new Codex before Blood Angels because I'm a selfish bastard and my other armies are Eldar and IG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, killing Dark Eldar would leave a HUGE hole in the fluff.

Owain wrote:I say Blood Angels need a new Codex before Blood Angels because I'm a selfish bastard and my other armies are Eldar and IG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, killing Dark Eldar would leave a HUGE hole in the fluff.

What hole? The sum total of dark eldar fluff consists of their own codex, a painting of cormorragh, some non-specific flavour text in the Rulebook, Khan cruising through the webway and one ripping out lukas the trickster's heart.

I can write them out of the game and maintain continuity with a sentence. The part of the webway cormorragh was in collapsed and they're all dead.

I can retcon them out completely with two.

Khan ran off to chase daemons.

Lukas got his heart ripped out by an ordinary eldar.

That's hardly fluff presence along the lines of the chaos gods, horus heresy, nid invasion, old ones, etc is it.


They need an update in part because their backstory is so underdeveloped.

Blood Angels have a codex?

I disagree that the Orks fill the same niche as Dark Eldar.

Orks are baddies. But they're baddies that don't need reasons to fight. They're not fighting for some lame, stupid cause. They don't need a cause. Orks will just as likely kill something as they will do anything else.

Dark Eldar, now, Dark Eldar prove that the Eldar soul is corruptible. Dark Eldar prove that the selfishness and cruelty of the Eldar can manifest themselves. The Dark Eldar fight to steal souls to extend their lives can keep that wily pervert Slaanesh at bay. They also use slaves to build buildings and for general labor.

But, in all honesty, 'Crons need a new codex. At least Tau have some decent Anti-Tank (Railguns, Meltas)

@Cryonic: Didn't the Fall prove that already, manyfold over?

Persephone 66 wrote:Blood Angels have a codex?

Yes, our codex is currently a .pdf download since it originally appeared in WD.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180159_Blood_Angels_Codex_and_FAQ_2007-08_5th_Edition.pdf

Pay no attention to the updated to 5E on the front, that's a dirty lie.

That being said it's good enough and I'd still rather see some other codices updated well before ours was.

The Dark Elves were the joke of fantasy for years up until recently. It could be the same with Dark Eldar. Of course, we'll never know until the rumored Jes Goodwin blessed models hit the pre-order page.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Cryonic: Didn't the Fall prove that already, manyfold over?

Hm, from whence dost thou think DE originated?

If the Dark Eldar were Chaos Eldar, that would be pretty cool, and would match with what most players expected and wanted prior to their release.

But they're not.

I know you're trying to let me down gently here, John, but please extrapolate. I thought the DE were the Eldar who (a) hadn't left prior to the Fall (craftworlders, exodites) and (b) weren't instantly killed/driven insane by the birth of Slaanesh or soul-leached by him shortly thereafter.

Chaos Eldar would be Eldar on Crone Worlds, backed by Actual Chaos Daemons. MoS by default, with Chaos powers, Daemonic Gifts and so forth.

The analogy would be CSM to SM. Or at least Emperor's Children to SM.

Dark Eldar are something else. Sort of. There are Slaaneshi elements, but they're not at the fore, kinda watered down. And then there's the Hellraiser stuff. A cheesy, bad horror movie parody, rather than something scary.

But DE are the survivors of the fall, right? (I seriously don't know their fluff/am not trying to be an argumentative ass.)

Not really. The DE are in the Webway. Crone Worlds (pre-Fall Eldar worlds) are necessarily in the very heart of the Eye of Terror.

Okay, I'm baffled. I get that DE escaped Slaanesh into the webway but I thought they were (along with the current inhabitants of the Crone Worlds) the protagonists of the Fall.

The Fluff isn't entirely clear on the last point, whether they were part of the Fall, like the Eldar of the Crone worlds. It could be merely a question of degree & proximity.

Unlike Craftworlds & Exodites, the origin of the Dark Eldar has never really been especially well-defined.

Well, their codex is pretty skimpy at 48 pages (esp considering SW 5th weighs in at 96). I don't see how Kid Kyoto can not want to see them redone. Well, other than that he thinks they should be erased from 40k.

Manchu wrote:Okay, I'm baffled. I get that DE escaped Slaanesh into the webway but I thought they were (along with the current inhabitants of the Crone Worlds) the protagonists of the Fall.

DE are the Eldar who just happened to be in transit in the Webway when the Fall happened. Like coming back from vacation, going to a doctors appointment, stuff like that.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:The present situation with the trilogy unfinished feels slightly wrong but the xenos book just sits there emanating an enormous pile of problems like a rotting elephant carcass everyone is ignoring.

The whole =][= trilogy thing was just a ploy by Andy Chambers to keep the bean counters from squating the SoB. Seriously. He knew the only way to convince them to let him update the SoB was to pitch it as part of an =][= line which included GK. So Chambers saved the SoB and the bean counters got their space marines. Clever guy that Chambers. They should give him a raise.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I say no too squats because the fluff was poorly developed, the name is awful and their aesthetic trips all over territory the space wolves already have (can't so slayers when the SW have lone wolves).

That's because the SW stole the squats' nordic aesthetic. Sort of like how SM stole Chaos' +2 power weapons. But worse.


Now I shall talk about Chaos as I am wont to do. I don't think they should do a Codex: Chaos Legions. In fact I think they should scrap Codex: Chaos Space Marines and just do a Codex: Chaos. They should make a mutant/cultist box set and include them as a Troops choice. TS, DG, WE, and EC should get their cult terminators and lords and havocs and stuff back. You don't need separate entries for noise marines and berzerkers and plague marines. All you need is an option in the unit entry to upgrade the unit to the appropriate legion. SW get Sagas - why can't my Chaos lord take the Saga of the Death Guard (+1T, -1I, FNP, Defensive Grenades)? That's not too complicated is it?

And they need to get rid of this choas renegaed warbanz hurr! nonsense and go back to the focus on legions. The CSM list is essentially a legions list - hence all the pre-heresy equipment. Why is it that when a chapter turns renegade they immediately ditch all their razorbacks and whirlwinds, confiscate all their 1st company's storm bolters and swap them for combi-bolters of an archaic design that they've never used before, and replace all the power packs on their power armour with the extended vent design? Ideally renegade chapters should have a mix of the loyalist equipment that they possessed before going renegade and replacement equipment they've acquired since then (which could include equipment of archaic design obtained from Chaos forgeworlds in the EoT and whatnot). The proportion would depend on the chapter. Renegade chapters should be somewhere in-between Chaos legions and Ultramarines. Now here's a design concept which I think should go without saying but evidently someone in the studio forgot when they made the latest Chaos codex - YOU DON'T DESIGN LISTS BASED ON IN-BETWEEN ARMIES. You design them around the archetypal extremes and let players who want to play an in-between army choose which list better represents what they want. So for example, if you want to make a renegade chapter then you get to choose between the loyalist list (for a recently turned chapter) and the legion-based list (for a chapter that has been Chaos for awhile).


And this brings me to my next point. Do you know who deserves a codex before Blood Angels? White Scars. Yes, White Scars. Now I'm not saying that White Scars deserve a codex before Necrons or Tau or =][= or Adeptus Mechanicus or Hrud or Exodites, but they deserve one before BA. Why? Because "crazy mongol biker space marines" is a much stronger design concept than "sort of vampirey sort of assaulty space marines with a sort of Italian Renaissance aesthetic". In fact "callous cyborg space marines" is a stronger design concept too so Iron Hands should get a codex before BA.

I think it all comes down to the fact that GW have really painted themselves into a corner with the BA and DA. In the fluff BA and DA have always been essentially codex chapters with some slight divergences, which is just fine IMHO, but since they MUST have their own codices and everybody else MUST be rolled into Codex: Ultramarines we're left with a problem - BA and DA essentially place an upper limit on how divergent everyone else can be (SW and BT excepted). So what do you get? You get designers wracking their brains trying to think of ways to retcon BA and DA to make them divergent enough to justify their own full codices while concepts with much more potential for interesting divergence never get explored (thus the retconning of WS and IH to make them essentially Ultramarines with variant color schemes). I mean we have the chapter of Black Space Marines Who Wear Tabards And Are Medieval Knights and the chapter of Space Marines Who Wear Robes (Which Are Different Than Tabards) And Are Also Medieval Knights (But In A More Monastic Sort Of Way Than The Black Space Marines Who Are Medieval Knights) And Also They Are Green But Some Of Them Are Black But Only If They Are On Bikes (Unlike The Black Space Marines Who Are All Black) And Their Terminators Are White Too. Great work guys - obviously both of these very distinct and unique design concepts need to be explored fully in separate codices.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Chaos Eldar would be Eldar on Crone Worlds, backed by Actual Chaos Daemons. MoS by default, with Chaos powers, Daemonic Gifts and so forth.

The analogy would be CSM to SM. Or at least Emperor's Children to SM.

Dark Eldar are something else. Sort of. There are Slaaneshi elements, but they're not at the fore, kinda watered down. And then there's the Hellraiser stuff. A cheesy, bad horror movie parody, rather than something scary.

Actually, I wouldn't have any problem with DE turning into "Chaos Eldar."

The fluff isn't what attracted me to playing DE when I got back into 40K about 8 years ago. Frankly, I don't read any of the fluff, anyway; I'm barely interested in any of the GW fluff.

I liked DE for the play style and for the fact that there aren't many DE players out there.

If the supposed new codex kept them fast & fragile with a hard punch, but turned them into Slaneesh worshiping Chaos types, that'd be fine with me.

sorry to say, i dout the Squats will ever be back with their own Codex. same as we will never see an army book from the east of the warhammer world, there just isnt any intrest from the GW management side of things to do it.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:DE are the Eldar who just happened to be in transit in the Webway when the Fall happened.

I don't think they should do a Codex: Chaos Legions. In fact I think they should scrap Codex: Chaos Space Marines and just do a Codex: Chaos.

And this brings me to my next point. Do you know who deserves a codex before Blood Angels? White Scars. Yes, White Scars.

In the fluff BA and DA have always been essentially codex chapters with some slight divergences,

OK, I can see the Dark Eldar as guys "who happened to be in transit in the Webway". However, in a universe based on active Fluff, a passive "accidental" or happenstance background story is rather uninspiring:
- "I was on my way to get some groceries.
- "I needed more toilet paper."
- "I wanted to visit my cousin."
- "I was bored and just decided to go for a long walk."
I mean, WTF?

Like how GW has taken a step back in WFB, now that they've got people paying for up to 3 Army Books of Chaos? Or how GW has gotten Daemons paying its way as a separate army? Or even how WFB undead got split into wet & dry? To say nothing of how SM got split into sub-flavors for vikings, monks, vampire, knights, and spiky. That ship has sailed. Several Chaos books won't be a bad thing, as GW will have the space to flesh them out a bit.

You think we really need a THIRD Biker Marine book after Ravenwing and SM Captain on Bike? Really? Jump Packs aren't more interesting with 3 Editions of Fluff behind them? Really?

Fluff-wise, there is no reason for another SM codex--especially not for the WS who were in favor of Codex Astartes from the beginning! SM 5th has all the options you need (just add personal creativity) to more than adequately field WS. That said, I can see DA and BA being someone's pet personal project at GW. I especially think that's plausible for the pdf-wielding BAs who are now mysteriously fighting the nids in SH 3rd instead of DA. They also just got a crappy little book to round off their series of crappy little books. Forget Codex: WS (what's next, Codex: IF?) and give someone else a turn. Codex: Thousand Sons would be far more valuable to everyone, for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:DE are the Eldar who just happened to be in transit in the Webway when the Fall happened. Like coming back from vacation, going to a doctors appointment, stuff like that.

Oh, and that's the worst fluff I've ever heard. Poor DE, if that is the case.

Manchu wrote: Forget Codex: WS (what's next, Codex: IF?) and give someone else a turn. Codex: Thousand Sons would be far more valuable to everyone, for example.

C: TS ?

Some psykers and their buddies "walking set of armor without anything inside" shouldnt need more than one page as rules.

Maybe deserving a codex is always subjective.

Would i like to see a codex for every possible force of 40k? Yes. Would they all got jervisified to keep GW's costs down? That too.

Do i want to pay for "copy-paste"? Not really.

So lets have DE beeing released "next year" until 3000AD.

The BA need to return to printed codex. Cant see why GW can not go back to "angels of death" = DA+BA combi-dex.
DA dex isnt so well done and BA need a new one. Problem solved.

1hadhq wrote:The BA need to return to printed codex. Cant see why GW can not go back to "angels of death" = DA+BA combi-dex.
DA dex isnt so well done and BA need a new one. Problem solved.

Despite your foolhardy appraisal of the Thousand Sons, I agree with the revival of an Angels of Death dex. (a.k.a, Angels of Emo)

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Manchu wrote:Where are the Dark Eldar on this list? I'm so lost.

??? I don't understand the question.

WHy would Dark Eldar be on a list of armies that deserve a codex?

Perhaps you're thinking of my list of armies best forgotten and never mentioned again.

So the idiotic biker dorfs in space deserve a codex but dark eldar do not? You lost all credibility. Alien hunters don't need a codex. They can use marine rules. Why do they need a codex? Bolters can't kill aliens? Squats don't need a codex, the idea was terrible and GW knows it. Chaos Legions don't need a codex, the chaos space marine codex covers them just fine. The only armies that need codexes on your list are Daemonhunters. Oh wait, i should have said army. GW needs to update codexes rather than create new armies. Necrons should be on your list but are not. Terrible list.

See K_K, messing with DE is a hornets' nest.

Manchu wrote:Forget Codex: WS (what's next, Codex: IF?) and give someone else a turn. Codex: Thousand Sons would be far more valuable to everyone, for example.

Yes, Codex: Thousand Sons would be a better codex than Codex: WS. Just like Codex: WS would be a better codex than Codex: BA (I would have said Codex: DA but I produce better results than Codex: DA everytime I make BM).

JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, I can see the Dark Eldar as guys "who happened to be in transit in the Webway". However, in a universe based on active Fluff, a passive "accidental" or happenstance background story is as totally awesome as the urban legend that Marilyn Manson is actually the actor who played Kevin on the television show Mr. Belvedere.

Fixed it.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Yes, Codex: Thousand Sons would be a better codex than Codex: WS. Just like Codex: WS would be a better codex than Codex: BA (I would have said Codex: DA but I produce better results than Codex: DA everytime I make BM).

Point taken, but the problem is that BA are Codex variant in the fluff whereas WS are not. You have no argument from a SW that DA suck.

Hmmmm...

I'm not convinced a First Founding Chapter/Legion should get the codex....

Maybe pull everyones pants down and give Cypher & the Fallen their own Codex...then finally we'll see just exactly what that awesome chap of an astartes has been getting up to since the fall of caliban.

On the flipside of that....I think it's a high time a strong successor chapter got a codex...like Flesh Tearers or Blood Drinkers instead of doing just a BA codex.

I can't help but think how well a SW/DA codex would have gone down, their combined exploits are legendary and the book would be almost as thick as the tome of rules itself!

For the Emperor!

Manchu wrote: I especially think that's plausible for the pdf-wielding BAs who are now mysteriously fighting the nids in SH 3rd instead of DA.

"Mysteriously"? You mean like in the classic Sega Saturn game ?

Or "mysterious" like the original Space Hulk, before the Deathwing expansion for DA?

Please clarify.
____

RobDA wrote:Maybe pull everyones pants down and give Cypher & the Fallen their own Codex...

I think it's a high time a strong successor chapter got a codex...like Flesh Tearers or Blood Drinkers instead of doing just a BA codex.

Codex: Fallen Angels would not be the worst thing, as the Fallen had actual rules in 2E & 3E to build off, along with Cypher.

How about Black Templars? They're a successor chapter.

RobDA wrote:I can't help but think how well a SW/DA codex would have gone down, their combined exploits are legendary and the book would be almost as thick as the tome of rules itself!

I'm sorry, but the very thought of such a travesty makes my stomach churn. Such a book would tear itself apart. The SW half would eventually throw the DA half off of your bookshelf.

Manchu wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Yes, Codex: Thousand Sons would be a better codex than Codex: WS. Just like Codex: WS would be a better codex than Codex: BA (I would have said Codex: DA but I produce better results than Codex: DA everytime I make BM).

Point taken, but the problem is that BA are Codex variant in the fluff whereas WS are not.

Fluff is malleable. They'll retcon the fluff to whatever it needs to be in order to justify BA getting their own codex and WS getting stuffed in Codex: Ultramarines. My point is that BA and are not as strong a concept from a design standpoint as WS. Which concept has more potential for divergence? Space marine mongols on bikes? Or space marines with psychological problems. IMHO one has obvious potential for clear divergence that could be easily reflected both in the models and on the tabletop, and the other... not so much.

And DA are even worse. Space marines in robes with others who ride bikes but are painted a different color for some reason and their terminators are a different color too. Visually they are distinctive (as long as you ignore BT) but how is a marine in a robe any different than a marine without one? DA get an entire separate codex and essentially the main difference between them and Ultramarines is that their terminators and bikers are fearless (a feature that's not even reflected on the models). That's the best the studio could come up with. How divergent is that, really? They really needed a separate codex for that? Really?

But here's the real question we need to be asking: what rules are DA missing? What aspects of their distinctiveness are not being properly represented in the rules? Because by my reckoning they got a whole codex devoted to them and it seems that the differences between them and bog standard marines is quite miniscule - in fact any differences that do exist seem like they were invented out of thin air in a desparate attempt to disguish them in some way, in any way, and thus justify them getting their own codex. And all the while concepts with real potential are discarded so that they can be stuffed into a single book.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Please clarify.

Fair enough. Shows what I know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:And all the while concepts with real potential are discarded so that they can be stuffed into a single book.

I already agreed that BA and DA seemed like personal scores for some GW employee. I don't think that they deserve their own codices. I'm just saying why they'll get them and WS will not.

It's OK, I'm just teasing you.

Besides, you'd have gotten the same points from any other old-timer.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:DE are the Eldar who just happened to be in transit in the Webway when the Fall happened.

I don't think they should do a Codex: Chaos Legions. In fact I think they should scrap Codex: Chaos Space Marines and just do a Codex: Chaos.

And this brings me to my next point. Do you know who deserves a codex before Blood Angels? White Scars. Yes, White Scars.

In the fluff BA and DA have always been essentially codex chapters with some slight divergences,

OK, I can see the Dark Eldar as guys "who happened to be in transit in the Webway". However, in a universe based on active Fluff, a passive "accidental" or happenstance background story is rather uninspiring:
- "I was on my way to get some groceries.
- "I needed more toilet paper."
- "I wanted to visit my cousin."
- "I was bored and just decided to go for a long walk."
I mean, WTF?

Like how GW has taken a step back in WFB, now that they've got people paying for up to 3 Army Books of Chaos? Or how GW has gotten Daemons paying its way as a separate army? Or even how WFB undead got split into wet & dry? To say nothing of how SM got split into sub-flavors for vikings, monks, vampire, knights, and spiky. That ship has sailed. Several Chaos books won't be a bad thing, as GW will have the space to flesh them out a bit.

You think we really need a THIRD Biker Marine book after Ravenwing and SM Captain on Bike? Really? Jump Packs aren't more interesting with 3 Editions of Fluff behind them? Really?

Personally, I like variety. As long as they keep them interesting with sufficient distinction, they could come out with a codex for any army you could imagine, and I'd be fine with that.

I really wish they wouldn't discontinue armies, too. It doesn't take that much effort to get people interested in an army, if you pay some sort of attention to them.

Unfortunately, I think too many people at GW are too busy sampling their bong water to put in the work to keep people interested beyond the initial release of a new codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

RobDA wrote:Maybe pull everyones pants down and give Cypher & the Fallen their own Codex...

I think it's a high time a strong successor chapter got a codex...like Flesh Tearers or Blood Drinkers instead of doing just a BA codex.

Codex: Fallen Angels would not be the worst thing, as the Fallen had actual rules in 2E & 3E to build off, along with Cypher.

How about Black Templars? They're a successor chapter.

Hey, I still own that old 2nd Ed combined DA/BA codex.

JohnHwangDD wrote:It's OK, I'm just teasing you.

I post to learn, great one.

Saldiven wrote:It doesn't take that much effort to get people interested in an army, if you pay some sort of attention to them.

Which brings us back to getting out a new DE codex, since publishing a new dex the only way GW has come up with to keep people interested in an army.

No love for a new Catachan codex?!

But here's the real question we need to be asking: what rules are DA missing? What aspects of their distinctiveness are not being properly represented in the rules? Because by my reckoning they got a whole codex devoted to them and it seems that the differences between them and bog standard marines is quite miniscule - in fact any differences that do exist seem like they were invented out of thin air in a desparate attempt to disguish them in some way, in any way, and thus justify them getting their own codex. And all the while concepts with real potential are discarded so that they can be stuffed into a single book.

I second this and develop it...
In ways I agree, they need to be explored more...but I'd say the thing that sets them apart distinctly from other chapters is simply the way they go about things...inherently secretive etc...their whole attitude is different to alot of other chapters...they go about things radically differently as a result.

Also another vibe I picked up on from the posts prior to this, is that they need to be defined in regards to rules etc...I agree, but this is only really in comparison to what the new SW codex has done.

Again, I feel the new SW codex has set a bar...forthcoming codexs need to match or top this.

I only say DA because I am intrigued by them...they are not all they seem at all, certainly not boring...and alot less "on the nose" than say the SW's. Alarge proportion of their lore is a mystery and I think a new codex for them could maybe explore abit more i.e. bust their secrets open a tad more!

@Abby -- Good points regarding BA and DA. I tend to agree that differentiating them is difficult, and that it's contributed to the lukewarm DA codices and somewhat off-target BA codices. I mean, vampires with jump packs -- Woosh! Bleh! Bleh! -- isn't really a concept with depth.

I wonder if BA would be better off conceptually if they focused on them as SMs teetering on the edge of insanity. Kind of give them a sense of decay...fading heroes in baroque armor slipping into madness. Maybe with a slight touch of creepiness. Now while they might be able to bring that to life fairly easily with miniatures and fluff, I dunno what they'd do on the rules front off the top of my head. Might be a more interesting starting point, though.

@RobDA: It almost sounds like what you're after could be better explored by BL than GW. I agree, if DA got a treatment like SW we wouldn't be having this discussion. But the point is that someone else needs dex more.

Oh and Manchu....

I have to say it....

DA are secretive, SW's just can't cope with secrets and would leave thier half of the codex in a 'huff' LOL

;-) Well met though regarding the bookshelf!

RobDA wrote:In ways I agree, they need to be explored more...but I'd say the thing that sets them apart distinctly from other chapters is simply the way they go about things...inherently secretive etc...their whole attitude is different to alot of other chapters...they go about things radically differently as a result.

But are those differences something that really needs to be reflected in a whole codex-worth of rules?

RobDA wrote:Also another vibe I picked up on from the posts prior to this, is that they need to be defined in regards to rules etc...I agree, but this is only really in comparison to what the new SW codex has done.

Again, I feel the new SW codex has set a bar...forthcoming codexs need to match or top this.

SW are different in easily identifiable ways. For starters they don't have tactical squads. And their concept is simple and distinctive - space marine vikings.

I think a lot of the problem with BA and DA is that their fluff has already established them as being very close to codex, so there's not a lot of wiggle room to make them more divergent without a radical retcon. Of course back when their fluff was first developed everybody was completely codex so their minor divergence was a big deal. On the other hand you have White Scars and Iron Hands whose fluff wasn't expanded until later in the Index Astartes articles when the studio was coming up with all sorts of great ideas for distinctive variations on the space marine theme that had much more potential than the concepts that had been established for BA and DA previously. Unfortunately BA and DA came out first and thus had a larger following and got their own codices while all the newer better ideas got reined in and/or discarded.

I agree with everything that Kyoto said earlier. In case anyone cares. Except I do agree that the DE needs to be rescued from this image of latex wearing gimps with sticks they want to put in peoples woohoos. They could use a new codex.
Best lol I've had today.

I dunno....I'm not sure I associate DE with gimp-like martians.
:-)
I've read into their lore, and also short stories such as the one in 'Tales of Heresy' where they face off against the SW...and they do seem quite damn sadistic and disturbing tbh.
I think they need to be less suggestive with them and more balls out sly and brutal.
But the skeletal work is there for them. They are friggin' frig'd up!

ChristmasMarine wrote:
I fail to see any reason for your hate of DE, other than that you want 3 Inquisition codices, when its already the least played set of forces (GKs are barely even used any more, and whos ever seen a daemonhost on a table?).

Why does the Daemonhost get so much hate? Mine has ripped through many a units....

Its fun

Manchu wrote:The models need retooling. Who'd play Space Marines if they still looked like this:


Ugh.

I love the top right model. Looks like he'd never have to reload in a firefight, given the size of that ammo clip =D

olympia wrote:A great premise for a thread. But what about the Tau and Necrons? Those poor bastards deserve all the help they can get.

Phew, I thought I was going to be alone in mentioning the Necrons then(!). Not as desperate as DE, but GW could still do with bringing our rules up to 5th edition.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Unfortunately BA and DA came out first and thus had a larger following and got their own codices while all the newer better ideas got reined in and/or discarded.

I'm agreeing in principle (as to BA and DA got first dibs), but what makes you think that WS aren't okay as they are in the redoubtable SM5th?

Now there's a thought...

GK's should just get their own codex!

That'd be awesome for lore and ultimately quite marketable...providing the miniature sales warrant/justify a codex creation for standalone GK's.

well considering that The Space Marine Chapters Balance everything out you can't attack them much.

So I took a day or two off from internetting and this little thread sure grew.

After wading through 4 pages a couple of points are clear.

1 - Oddly no one is defending the Red Space Marines need for a codex, only quibbling about which 10 or more armies should come before them.

2 - My list could use some editing. Let's compress the 3 Iquisition factions into 1 codex Inquisition. My thought is there would be 4 HQ picks (Inquisitor Lord, GK Grand Master, SoB Canoness, Marine in Black) and they would unlock the units under them (GKs, =I= storm troopers, SoBs, funky alien mercs), this frees up 2 slots.

3 - Necrons should be in there, my bad omitting them.

4 - Catachans should be in there as well, like the Black Templars and Space WOlves they are much too divergent from their parent army for the rules to do right. In fact with their WS4 and 6+ sv they are MORE divergent than most marine chapters.

5 - An insignificant minority of posters do not yet grasp the awesomeness of the squats. THis is understandable, they must be the same people who made G-Force a hit film. They even go so far as to say a Squat is just a Dwarf with a Gun, while missing the fact that a Wych Eldar is just a Witch Elf with a gun.

6 - Unlike any new army, the DE have a history. Of failure. They were in the 3rd edition starter set, they were the first new army in ages, they had the first or second codex for 3rd edition and yet... No one bought them. THey sat on shelves until GW admitted defeat and recalled them. Now I don't know what Codex Squats would sell, since the Squats don't have a modern sales history. But we know how DE do in shops. THey do terribly.

7 - No one has argued against Codex Blood Angles so I must assume the Blood Angles are the most awesome idea ever.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Now I don't know what Codex Squats would sell, since the Squats don't have a modern sales history. But we know how DE do in shops. THey do terribly.

That's a bit disingenuous. It stands to reason they'd do about the same. I mean, there would be that one guy around here who'd buy the DE box. And then there'd be you buying the Squats . . . or more likely, haranguing the rest of us to buy them while you play with your dracula marines.

Manchu wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Now I don't know what Codex Squats would sell, since the Squats don't have a modern sales history. But we know how DE do in shops. THey do terribly.

That's a bit disingenuous. It stands to reason they'd do about the same. I mean, there would be that one guy around here who'd buy the DE box. And then there'd be you buying the Squats . . . or more likely, haranguing the rest of us to buy them while you play with your dracula marines.

Yeah, GW probably scr3ewed themselves with too many years os squat jokes.

But the point reminds, DE had a fair shot, more than a fair shot, a lot more than the Necs or the Tau got and they failed.

Sure maybe completely redoing the models, rules and fluff would get them to sell, but if you're doing that why not do an army without the same stench of failure about it.

Remaking the DE is like making Ishtar 2.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Sure maybe completely redoing the models, rules and fluff would get them to sell, but if you're doing that why not do an army without the same stench of failure about it.

What about the stench of Squats? (Wow, that sounds more convincing than I expected!) I hear you, though, K_K. If it would take a complete makeover of DE to make them marketable, why not take the same amount of effort and put that into creating a new race? I think we can see in this thread, however, that there;s enough residual DE love to give them a leg up over an unknown (or even worse failure, like the Squats).

Kid_Kyoto wrote:So I took a day or two off from internetting and this little thread sure grew.

WRT your latest points:

1 - Red Space Marines don't need defending - they're going to get their Codex. Eventually. Deserved or not.

2 - 3-in-1 Inquisition? Please, no. As I said above, Sisters of Battle, then Inquisition.

3 - Necrons are xenos and core Fluff, so will eventually get a Codex that straightens out their rules.

4 - Catachans / Tallarns / Tanith should be the Light Infantry version that focuses on Infiltrate, Deep Strike, Stealth, and Outflanking as an alternate to current the Cadian / Vostryan / Mordian / Valhallan Mech template!

5 - Squats don't have awesomeness in the 40k universe, but are great comedic relief. Bring them back as a Guard abhuman unit, not as a Codex. Or just play them as Orks.

6 - DE? not until I get my dollar!

7 - Blood Angles are funny, but Choas would be better - otherwise the Dark Angle player will be mad!

Lol, I wouldn't try to argue KK down from his crazy tree. He has had his responses
to many of your posts ready for years.

Seriously, I am completely unsurprised by his list. While he does try to slip some
practical reasons in there, it's clear that some things will never settle for him (such
as Dark Elfs in space)

JohnHwangDD wrote:3-in-1 Inquisition? Please, no. As I said above, Sisters of Battle, then Inquisition.

So, just to clarify, a stand-alone Sisters book (not Witch Hunters) and then a separate Inquisition book that covers all three ordos?

Yup. Codex: Sisters of Battle standalone, with the Frateris Militia restored!

Codex: Inquisition for everything left over:
- Inquisitors & Henchmen,
- Assassins (Sicarus)
- Grey Knights (Malleus)
- Deathwatch (Xenos)
- Stormies & Servitors
- basic bulk generic Inducted Marine and Guard Forces
- Allies rules for IG and Sisters armies

Trying to put 3 full Codices in one book doesn't work.

Would there really be enough for a Sisters codex? What kind of new units would we see?

How about we just make one big inquisition codex. And you have the option to go pure sisters or grey knights just based off units in the book.

If there was a big "pure" Inquisition book, it would led itself to a lot more allies options. Rather than being an army unto itself it could be a cool way to modify other armies.

I'd quite like a sisters codex actually. Of the 2 existing =][= codecii they are easily the more popular and playable as an army themselves, DH are only popular as allies.

Getting rid of the main ordo militia from the =][= books would make it a lot easier to roll them all together and balance them. You can have a base of guard and inducted marines, GK and DW are elites but taking a GK grandmaster or DW librarian moves them to troops. GK termies and DW termies stay as elites regardless. Daemonhosts, archo-flagellants, penitent engines, Inquisitors, assassins, priests, hordes of zealots and all the other colourful characters of the Imperium round out the list.

Hell you could add some arbites and rogue tarders.

You would still have the option of allying in forces but GK/DW would be elite choices under this system so the allies becomes a case of 1 or 2 squads supporting your own core HQ and troops.

I only want to preserve allies because I think every Imperial army needs to be able to take Inquisitors and Assassins for fluff reasons. Also not giving people the option to use models they own sucks and is something GW are trying not to do anymore (Chaos players, your daemons need to come back but at least you still do have rules for the models)

Its not like sisters players would notice if you stripped away all the circus units. Inquisitors and Assassins are the only decent ones for regular games and penitents and archo-flags might be fun but they suck.

A Sisters book could have

HQ - Cannoness, St Celestine, the smaller version of a cannoness, some kind of regular sister special character

Troops - Battle Sisters, Zealots - Rhinos, Repressors, Immolators

Elites - Repentia (fixed please), Celestians, a third choice (something akin to the sternguard/vanguard split would be nice splitting the celestians into a cc vet role and making a new sisters unit as a shooty vet role)

Fast Attack - Seraphim, Dominions, non-dedicated immolators and repressors

Heavy Support - Retributors, Exorcist, another battle tank of some sort

3 units per slot and 2 troops, thats better than Necrons get and with the allies rules it would actually be a lot more.

KK said: 7 - No one has argued against Codex Blood Angles so I must assume the Blood Angles are the most awesome idea ever.

It is.. I want to make them when the new BA dex comes out..

DA is a test codex for flagship army.. thats its purpose now, being 1st is only good in a race..

combatmedic wrote:

ChristmasMarine wrote:
I fail to see any reason for your hate of DE, other than that you want 3 Inquisition codices, when its already the least played set of forces (GKs are barely even used any more, and whos ever seen a daemonhost on a table?).

Why does the Daemonhost get so much hate? Mine has ripped through many a units....

Its fun

Hallelujah, a fellow believer! It doesn't always work, but when the powers come up as what you need they hit the spot.
Plus they are hands down some of the coolest 40k models. No other miniatures capture the feel of the genre better
than the lowly Daemonhost! A TORMENTED MAN WRAPPED IN CHAINS WITH A DAEMON CLAWING ITS WAY OUT OF HIM
C'mon people!

Manchu wrote:Would there really be enough for a Sisters codex? What kind of new units would we see?

There was plenty enough in 2E & 3E, so there's easily enough for 5E.

Frateris Militia would obviously return, possibly flavors of Priests / Ministorum / Ecclesiarchy.

Veterans could split into flavors, and we could see Noviates and/or Gangers.

Certainly, more Tanks and Walkers are a given.

They really need something at not just for the table. Their gear and unit fluff is pretty lame (it's not totally James Swallow's fault that Faith & Fire was unimpressive) but there's no good reason for it. To continue on Abbadabbadon's point about fleshing out fertile concepts, the Sororitas would really benefit from being something other than an appendage (albeit the definitive one) of Witch Hunters.

Plus, can you imagine plastic Sororitas? :shivers:

Manchu wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Unfortunately BA and DA came out first and thus had a larger following and got their own codices while all the newer better ideas got reined in and/or discarded.

I'm agreeing in principle (as to BA and DA got first dibs), but what makes you think that WS aren't okay as they are in the redoubtable SM5th?

I'm not saying WS aren't ok in C:SM. I'm just saying that BA and DA would be even more ok than WS if they were in there too. And conversely, I'm not saying that BA and DA aren't ok getting their own codices. Only that WS would be even more ok than BA and DA if they got their own codex. Ok?

But that's only from a rules perspective. From a fluff perspective WS (and IH) are absolutely not ok in C:SM. The Index Astartes articles had some really nice fluff for them. WS had no dreadnoughts and they fielded attack bike squadrons instead of devastator squads. They were organized into "brotherhoods" each led by a "khan" rather than companies led by captains. Then the SM codex comes out and we have Korsarro Khan, whose title is "captain of the 3rd company" (evidently "Khan" is just his last name or something). And even worse, there is all this fluff talking up how really really closely WS follow the codex and how they really really want to be as much like Ultramarines as they possibly can. And now it seems like every time there's a fluff mention of IH it's always something to do with their chapter master and terminator squads (neither of which they were supposed to have).

Total retcon. And why? Because a decision was made that you're only "divergent" if you get your own codex and everybody in C:SM has to be less divergent (read: Ultramarine clones) from now on. Now it's one thing for an army that is divergent in the fluff to have to make do with using the vanilla list. It's another thing to have your army's background retconned to make them vanilla in the fluff. And for what? To make BA and DA more "special"? Now I could care less if someone else's army gets their own codex as long as it doesn't affect my army. But when they start screwing with my army's background as a result? Why should the decision to give someone else a codex mean that they need to gak in my corn flakes? If BA and DA need to get their own codices because they are popular then fine. But the studio really needs get off this whole idea that everybody else needs to be less divergent than them because they really aren't that divergent.

I mean what's next? Oh didn't you know? Chaos cults are like super rare, but daemonic incursions happen like almost every day! Dark apostles? Warsmiths? What are those? Their iz only choas lordz cuz tehy iz warbanz hurr!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:6 - Unlike any new army, the DE have a history. Of failure. They were in the 3rd edition starter set, they were the first new army in ages, they had the first or second codex for 3rd edition and yet... No one bought them. THey sat on shelves until GW admitted defeat and recalled them. Now I don't know what Codex Squats would sell, since the Squats don't have a modern sales history. But we know how DE do in shops. THey do terribly.

Ironically, to this day, I know far more DE players than SOB players, but you want SOB's to be redone. In the last five years since I moved to Atlanta, I personally know exactly two people who play SOBs, with a third who just started an army as part of an escalation league. I can count on one hand the number of SOB players I have seen at tournaments during that time.

Now, I'm NOT saying SOBs are bad; just that they are not incredibly popular, either.

As to why DE never caught on, the major reason is the horrible model range. None of the HQ models were particularly interesting (most are terrible), except for some of the Incubi models. In the elites section, only a couple of the wych models are any good. All the warrior models suck. The jetbikes aren't bad, but the hellion models should all be scrapped. Scourges are terrible, and the Talos is ok. The Raider and Ravager models were always pretty bad, too.

Couple that to the fact that, between 1998 and 2007 (the army's first decade), the sum total of GW's support for Dark Eldar consists of the introductory battle report in WD, a second battle report in WD featuring another army, and a three page (actually, three half pages, due to artwork) article in WD that was later consolidated in the the "second edition" DE codex.

Even orks, who had an even older codex, were featured more by GW during that same time. They had significant parts in the Vogen campaign, the Eye of Terror event, and Armageddon. They were also featured many times in WD. I don't mind this, of course, as orks were an original core army.

The point is that people tend to not buy what isn't marketed.

Seriously; someone must've really handed you your butt early in your playing career with a DE army for you to have so much hatred towards them.....

Edit for PS:

By the way, I actually owned a squat army back around 1990. The exo-armor squats that looked like weeble-wobbles, the exo-armored squats on attack trikes, units of squats with every member upgraded to a heavy bolter with a targeter and suspensor, heavy weapon attack trikes that looked like little, fat Hell's Angels with a las cannon attacked to the bitch-seat. This is one of the reasons that I would be really annoyed if GW did away with DE; they've already done that once to an army I spent a lot of money on.

We only need these codexs:

1. Eldar
2. Dark Eldar
3. Space Wolves (The only unique SM army)
4. Space marines (With BA, DA and BT)
5. Chaos Legions, renegades, LaTD and Demons
6. Necrons
7. Tau
8. Nids
9. IG
10. Inqusitian

Saldiven wrote:Ironically, to this day, I know far more DE players than SOB players,

As to why DE never caught on, the major reason is the horrible model range.

Even orks, who had an even older codex, were featured more by GW during that same time.

SoBs have much longer history than DE, with a full 2E Codex, but being an all-metal range (and priced as such) in an increasingly plastic-centric environment has has further limited Sisters uptake as the game has grown. Back in 3E, when DE models were new, and competitive on both price and looks, I knew only 1 primary DE player and 1 Sisters player. Since then, I haven't seen any significant (i.e. large) DE armies, but I have seen a couple SoB armies. I'd say that the numbers are roughly comparable, with the Sisters having the edge. But when you talk about (arbitrary numbers, for discussion) 1% vs 2%, both are well down from the 40+% that SM command.

DE had perfectly adequate models when released. The main reason had to have been a lack of secondary sales. Typically, DE have been Warrior-centric for ages, especially as they were virtually "FREE" in the boxed set, and would have been gotten from other players merely for the asking. I remember a *LOT* of conversations that went like this: "Oh, you're collecting Dark Eldar? I've got the starter models if you want them..." Any decent sized playgroup comes up with 100-odd DE models in no time flat. And with individual bitz being available, specialist models are easy, too. Plastic means that Archons are just another quick conversion. I wouldn't be surprised to find that DE sold virtually nothing outside the 3E starter sets, which is why they are where they are. With GW not making individual bitz available, DE would be far more expensive today - like Tau.

Orks sold decently in 3E. I remember a couple guys having huge Ork armies.

GW features stuff which sells, you know, rather than pushing stuff that doesn't.

DE Warriors are terrible models. Raiders are decent, but logistically a pain. Those have been significant obstacles to people who were interested in the army. I’ve still seen more DE armies than WH or SoB.

Manchu wrote:
Point taken, but the problem is that BA are Codex variant in the fluff whereas WS are not.

I was just about to ask when this HUGE change came about when I found this:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
But that's only from a rules perspective. From a fluff perspective WS (and IH) are absolutely not ok in C:SM. The Index Astartes articles had some really nice fluff for them. WS had no dreadnoughts and they fielded attack bike squadrons instead of devastator squads. They were organized into "brotherhoods" each led by a "khan" rather than companies led by captains. Then the SM codex comes out and we have Korsarro Khan, whose title is "captain of the 3rd company" (evidently "Khan" is just his last name or something). And even worse, there is all this fluff talking up how really really closely WS follow the codex and how they really really want to be as much like Ultramarines as they possibly can. And now it seems like every time there's a fluff mention of IH it's always something to do with their chapter master and terminator squads (neither of which they were supposed to have).

Total retcon.

WHAT?! This is utterly ridiculous. I don't have a White Scars army (nor have I really been following 40k since early 4th edition) but I don't like good fluff and interesting armies being retconned into oblivion for practically no reason.

Don't get too upset there.

I am still convinced that Abbadabbadon is missing the point about the flexibility of the SM codex--both in terms of the rules and the Codex Astartes. DA and BA may not totally deserve treatment as "divergent" chapters but White Scars certainly don't either. White Scars, it seems to me, don't represent as radical a divergence from Codex Astartes as they do another way to build an army list that is totally possible within the confines of SM 5th. It is obvious that enough of their fluff has survived the supposed retcon because we all know that they are some sort of Mongolian Biker chapter just like we all know that the SW are some sort of Space Viking chapter. I have never heard before (although I have heard far, far, far from it all) that White Scars were ever as distinct as SW. On the contrary, I have heard that White Scars were Gulliman's strongest supporters when he wanted to institute the Codex.

Lord-Loss wrote:We only need these codexs:

1. Eldar
2. Dark Eldar
3. Space Wolves (The only unique SM army)
4. Space marines (With BA, DA and BT)
5. Chaos Legions, renegades, LaTD and Demons
6. Necrons
7. Tau
8. Nids
9. IG
10. Inqusitian

technically we don't NEED any codexes... This is just a game after all.

But I'll play...

Eldar have been going extinct since 1st edition, it's time GW actually read their own fluff and dropped codex Eldar since there shouldn't be enough of them left to make a whole army. Just make them a unit in codex Alien Hunters or Codex Space Pirates and they're covered. Or maybe they can join the Tau Federation.

Both Orks and Nids fill similar niches as a the close-combat aliens so they can be compressed into one codex just double list all the units ie Slugga Boys/Hormaguants or Kila Kan/Carnifex.

All space marine chapters can be covered in one book, really it's only a question of paint jobs and what bitz you glue on.

This frees up space for 3 Inquisition books, Chaos Marines, Chaos Legions, Chaos Cults and Chaos Daemons, and Genestealer Cults which are the truely essential armies. Oh and Codex Catachans of course. And Codex Tanith.

In a way I think that both SoB and DE are not special enough to make an army out of. SoB are mostly just guard with power armour and DE, well, they are Eldar with spikey bits (granted I loved the concept for the grotesques) They need to make them more than just a pre-existing army with a special trick and some fluff. That is why Tau are so popular I think. They were unlike anything when they came out.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
technically we don't NEED any codexes... This is just a game after all.

But I'll play...

Eldar have been going extinct since 1st edition, it's time GW actually read their own fluff and dropped codex Eldar since there shouldn't be enough of them left to make a whole army. Just make them a unit in codex Alien Hunters or Codex Space Pirates and they're covered. Or maybe they can join the Tau Federation.

Both Orks and Nids fill similar niches as a the close-combat aliens so they can be compressed into one codex just double list all the units ie Slugga Boys/Hormaguants or Kila Kan/Carnifex.

All space marine chapters can be covered in one book, really it's only a question of paint jobs and what bitz you glue on.

This frees up space for 3 Inquisition books, Chaos Marines, Chaos Legions, Chaos Cults and Chaos Daemons, and Genestealer Cults which are the truely essential armies. Oh and Codex Catachans of course. And Codex Tanith.

So your plan is to combine races into less books to make way for more? Combining races like the Tyranids and Orks would take away room to expand on the fluff of the races that are combined into a single codex like you suggest. I believe that the fluff is what gets most players interested in there army to begin with. The exception to this would be armies that had similar backgrounds

You want to get rid of one of the armies that have been around the longest for fluff considerations? If GW followed there own fluff a Space Marine army would consist of a Drop pod and 10 Marines. In the 3rd edition Space Marine codex 70 Marines destroy a planets entire military infilstucture and assassinate the planetary govenor in 7 days.

Three Inquisition books could be released as a single codex considering WH and DH currently consist of Inquisitors, Assassins, Grey Knights, Sisters, Storm Troopers, and allies. Sternguard have similar rules for the Deathwatch and I can't think of special alien killing wargear better than the Heavy Bolter, and Flamer.

Chaos Marines, and Daemons were in one codex before so why not again? If they fixed problems with the 3.5 codex like the ability to infiltrate entire armies, or taking out the ability to change the force org chart that codex would be fine. Chaos cults should be compiled into a Lost and the Damned Codex which would give us Renegade Marines, Traitor Guard, and Mutants. (Think Codex: Eye of Terror)

Catachans, and Tanith? I love Gaunt's Ghosts as much as the next black library reader, but the new guard codex is just fine in my opinion without codex light armored jungle fighters who dissapear into the trees, and codex light armored guardsman who dissapear everywhere.

Manchu wrote: I have never heard before (although I have heard far, far, far from it all) that White Scars were ever as distinct as SW. On the contrary, I have heard that White Scars were Gulliman's strongest supporters when he wanted to institute the Codex.

Most of the fluff I've read, which is almost all pre-4th edition material, puts Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists as Guilliman's right-hand man, and his chapter as the 2nd-most rigorous adherents of the Codex after the Ultramarines themselves. In the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex, the White Scars are not listed on the two-page spread Codex Chapter paint schemes.


Text about the White Scars organization from Index Astartes I:

The remainder of the Chapter is organized slightly differently to most Codex Chapters, due to the higher proportion of bike squads and land speeder squadrons. The White Scars preferred fighting style does not allow them the use of as many heavy weapons as other Chapters and as a result they have no Devastator Squads. Their reliance on fast moving fire support also means that most tanks are too slow for the White Scars and those they do have are stripped down versions that can keep up with the rest of the army. Dreadnoughts are not employed by the White Scars, as the cold, metal sarcophagi of these mighty constructions evokes a horror of eternal confinement that goes against the White Scars' philosophy that when a warrior dies, his soul should be free to travel the afterlife.

A sample of the special rules in the IA army list:

-Bikes re-roll failed Difficult Terrain tests.
-Bike Squadrons are a Troops choice up to 10 models strong, and can take extra CCW for +1A.
-Power Lances: PW w/+1 Initiative when charging/counter-attacking, -1 Initiative otherwise
-Termies and tac squads must have transports.
-Command squads/vets can be bike mounted. If not, they MUST take transports too.
-Attack Bike squads are Heavy Support.

Basically the intention was to allow the player to deploy an entire army of Space Marines mounted on bikes, because as long as I have been playing GW games (since about 1994) that's been the popular conception of the White Scars. Pretty much every memory I have of seeing them in White Dwarf, for example, is of Mongols on Bikes. Nothing else. This army *cannot* be replicated with the 40k5 SM codex (no bike-mounted Troops choices), and unlike the DA who only have 1 "abnormal" bike company with the Ravenwing, the *entire* White Scars chapter operates like this. I'd also argue that this is far more distinct (due to it's somewhat one-dimensional and inflexible nature) than the Space Wolves, who can more or less field every type of "normal" Space Marine unit choice, just with a slant towards being better at close combat, extra HQs, and having some pet wolves tag along.

Noble713 wrote:Basically the intention was to allow the player to deploy an entire army of Space Marines mounted on bikes, because as long as I have been playing GW games (since about 1994) that's been the popular conception of the White Scars. Pretty much every memory I have of seeing them in White Dwarf, for example, is of Mongols on Bikes. Nothing else.

This army *cannot* be replicated with the 40k5 SM codex (no bike-mounted Troops choices), and unlike the DA who only have 1 "abnormal" bike company with the Ravenwing, the *entire* White Scars chapter operates like this.

"Mounted Assault - If your army includes a Captain on SM bike, SM Bike squads of 5+ models may be taken as Troops."
C: SM, p.132

Khan has the Mounted Assault rule, too.

Bike-mounted units:
HQ
- Chapter Master, Captain, Khan
- Librarian, Chaplain, MotF, Techmarine
- Command Squad

Troops
- SM Bikers (Mounted Assault)

Fast
- SM Bikers, Scout Bikers, Attack Bikes

IMO, it'd have been better to force WS to play as Ravenwing to remove the Bike overlap, but this is OK, too.

____

JohnHwangDD wrote:1 - Red Space Marines don't need defending - they're going to get their Codex. Eventually. Deserved or not.

Or, according to BoLS, Blood Angels will get their Codex on the heels of the Nid Codex - Q2 next year.

Yay!

C: SM, I hardly new ye. I look forward to all Assault Marines, all the time!

I guess that's what I get for just skimming through a copy of the codex instead of, ya know, actually being familiar with it (or with 5th edition in general).

*ducks back to the WHFB forums*

You sir have irked me. All those "armies" (8-3) are meant to be in the do not ever remake pile. They have been eating by tyranids then the slime left turned over to nurgle which has been used as a fertiliser on nurgles garden. Leave them were they belong.

Blood Angels is a good update one knowone would have suspected making 2 uber close combat marine armies close together is a kinda smart thing gets people choosing what army to play.

A reason for a BA 'dex in the near future is the release of Space Hulk
with all those nice BA Termies.
Similarly, Nids are released while Space Hulk contains
new Genestealer models.

InquisitorBob wrote:

Manchu wrote:The models need retooling. Who'd play Space Marines if they still looked like this:


Ugh.

Woaaaaaa whaT's the top left guy holding there?
It.. doesn't look so much as a weapon.. And what it could be scares me. >.>

It's the much-feared POWER BANANA.

Rico.

BA will get a 'dex without a doubt...

Ripister wrote:You sir have irked me. All those "armies" (8-3) are meant to be in the do not ever remake pile. They have been eating by tyranids then the slime left turned over to nurgle which has been used as a fertiliser on nurgles garden. Leave them were they belong.

Blood Angels is a good update one knowone would have suspected making 2 uber close combat marine armies close together is a kinda smart thing gets people choosing what army to play.

Y'know come of think of it cause of geneseed BAs are even rarer than Space Elfs. GW should just make them an optional allied unit for the IG.


But why quibble? I see we do agree that the muchly feared Blood Angles should be next.

They should also put emphasis on their blood drinking tendencies...like close quarters combat moves can include a leap onto an opponent in a weakened state thus much blood drinking ensues!!!

Would that include Tyranid ichor? How about Ork fungus-syrup? Necron grease?

I think he meant that BA would suck their opponents dry, thus heal themself with any wound inflicted.

Maybe win back full strength at a ratio of 3:1 ( dead opponents : lost BA marines/wound on multiwound char.) ?

So instead of sweeping advance, BA would refill their ranks.....

I get it mechanically but was pointing out it would lead to some ridiculous situations.

I have never seen people so obviously trolled by such obvious sarcasm. I for one agree entirely with kid kyoto.

Eidolon wrote:I have never seen people so obviously trolled by such obvious sarcasm. I for one agree entirely with kid kyoto.

I totally disagree with kid kyoto.
BA desperately needs a non-jervisified codex.

Cause 40K needs yet another marine codex.

/Sarcasm off.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
But I'll play... the truely essential armies. Oh and Codex Catachans of course. And Codex Tanith.

Indeed.
Codex Malak - the truly Quintessential chaos god. Esoteric *and* fashionable.
Codex Hrud - It got mentioned, it must well and truly deserve a codex.

I'll conceed that your codex order is correct, and the truth once all codices are retconned to match CS Goto's cannon.

Oldgrue wrote:Codex Malak - the truly Quintessential chaos god. Esoteric *and* fashionable.

"Malak"? *Who's that*?

OTOH, Codex: Malal, the renegade Chaos God, would be cool...

JHDD, always there for the typo!

Still waiting for CS Goto's multilasers.

Well at least everyone's forgotten Codex: Sensei:
- 1,000 = nothing
- 1,500 = nothing
- 2,000 = nothing
- 3,000 = 1 guy.... possibly....

Found this on 40konline. Not sure about its validity, but it seems the blood angles might be finally get their much deserved codex.

Next is Skaven, Tyranids, Beasts of Chaos and then Blood angles. So....Blood angles I'll expect during the summer or something. Not sure how long the gap between books normally is. If it's one months between wolves and skaven and two between Skaven and 'Nids, I'll say maybe two months between books? Putting it maybe between Mayish/Juneish? Meh...This is merely my ramblings, but Blood Angles to be the fourth next book, after wolves.He Didn't say anything after that.

I heard that starting next November, 2010, the revisions of the Ork Codex will be ready. There well be five released one every three months:
Codex Goffs
Codex Snakebites
Codex Evil Sunz
Codex Bad Moonz
Codex Blood Axes

My sources tell me that they will use similar models but have slightly different rules (e.g. the Battle Wagon in Codex: Snake Bites is reportedly only open-topped; there is no 'ard case upgrade. Similarly, I am told that Blood Axes will have a special character that alllows for one (1) unit of Kommandos to be taken as a troops choice. People are obviously sad and angry that there are no plans for a Codex Death Skullz.

olympia wrote:I heard that starting next November, 2010, the revisions of the Ork Codex will be ready. There well be five released one every three months:
Codex Goffs
Codex Snakebites
Codex Evil Sunz
Codex Bad Moonz
Codex Blood Axes

What? That would be ridiculous with separate ork codexes! Almost as unnecessary as a blood angels codex would be.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

What fluff?

THe Eldar are Elfs in Space. The Dark Elfs are Elfs who are Dark.

The Dark Eldar are the Elfs who are Dark and also in Space. They're a xerox of a xerox, a knock-off of a knock-off.

THeir 'theme' is they are PURE EVIL! But we already have an abundance of PURE EVIL! armies, Chaos Marines and Daemons being the closest. So the DE are PURE EVIL who are into torture and slavery but in a PG-13 sort of way.

But Orks and CSMs already have that niche filled.

So what are they? They're Eldar but with the weapons renamed. Dark Lances instead of Bright Lances and so on. Like I said a copy of a copy with no real room for growth. Let them wither and die with their big hats and razor-encrusted armor. Let something better take their place.

Excuse me good sir but your ignorants is showing. Dark Eldar not only deserve a new codex but they NEED A NEW CODEX. By the way what do you have against de any way?

Um, this is an anti-BA thread, not a pro-DE thread.

Lord-Loss wrote:We only need these codexs:

1. Eldar
2. Dark Eldar
3. Space Wolves (The only unique SM army)
4. Space marines (With BA, DA and BT)
5. Chaos Legions, renegades, LaTD and Demons
6. Necrons
7. Tau
8. Nids
9. IG
10. Inqusitian

So let me get this straight... the space wolves are more different than space marines, than legions are from "generic" chaos?
Seriously?

...Seriously?

Obviously, he's a SW player.

obviously....I don't like the number of marine codexes, but they do add some nice variety. If their going to push SM, they should at least make it interesting. (Although I am in favor of taking all those codexes and making it into a single volume...)

WH and DH should be combined into a single codex.

I'm on board with PDF Army Lists for Kroot, LatD, Ad Mech, Genestealer Cult, etc. I don't think there's enough dollars in it for full 100-page codexes. These lists don't need the support of models like the others, but open up tons of possibilities for conversions and modelling.

InquisitorBob wrote:

Manchu wrote:The models need retooling. Who'd play Space Marines if they still looked like this:


Ugh.

Woaaaaaa whaT's the top left guy holding there?
It.. doesn't look so much as a weapon.. And what it could be scares me. >.>

It's an Imperial Butter Knife!

You know, Codex: Renegades would be fun, Forge World already have a great line of them.
Although most players that I'm aware of just use the IG rules, I think a codex involving things like possesed psykers and Chaos Spehss Marines as HQ choices might be cool.

More codex=more money for GW=More codex

you forgot to add = longer codex update time = greater army inbalance = armies getting shelved

codices don't make GW money, models do.

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:More codex=more money for GW=More codex=longer codex update time=greater army inbalance=armies getting shelved=less players and/or more models sales= more and less money for GW

Fixed, thanks for the tip CM

Necrons, Eldar, Beasts of Chaos, Tau, Ogre Kingdoms, Tomb Kings, Dwarfs, Wood Elves, High Elves and *shudders* Dark Eldar.

Why do Eldar need a new dex?

I fail to see any reason for your hate of DE, other than that you want 3 Inquisition codices, when its already the least played set of forces (GKs are barely even used any more, and whos ever seen a daemonhost on a table?).

I would definitely start a Sisters Army if they had a little updating. No questions asked.


That being said, if they do create Blood Angels, for the love of all that is holy (or unholy!) let it be "Angels of Death" and update the Dark Angels also.(Yes, I know they don't "need" an update if you define it by time. That codex is an abomination however as far as quality goes) Or at least put them out of their misery and just make them green codex marines so I don't feel so awful about it.
I'm ashamed to just field my Dark Angels as Space Marines so they normally gather dust.

sarxsvt wrote:

I would definitely start a Sisters Army if they had a little updating. No questions asked.

I'd start them if they got some plastic.